From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:21:17 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCBAE48FDD for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZda011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0309C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 246412 Lines: 5499 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:12:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 13 Sep 2003 to 14 Sep 2003 (#2003-253) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger wrote: > Keith, > A good species is turquata (spelling?) It produces a lot of nectar. = > They are very keen on it in Israel. > Best regards > Roger Site with info about Eucalyptus Torquata. MIKE http://www.ci.la.ca.us/BOSS/StreetTree/EucalyptusTorquata.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:14:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Nice problems to have MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA) "I might just get a second double screen and bucket), and anything else..." Sounds like you need a settling tank or two. Then you can just tip the extracted honey in without slowing for filtering, wait 3 days and bottle down to the tap level with all the bits just floating in the tank - or sunk to the bottom. A tank also lets air bubbles rise, so your jars are clear of scum. That way you only have to filter what is finally left in the tank below the tap - which I keep myself as 'family honey' to save the trouble needed to get that bit up to sale standard. A settling tank need only be a 5 gallon plastic brewing bucket made for home beer making plus a honey tap from the suppliers. Two tanks works for 20 hives if you like to spread extracting steaily over say two or three weeks - more would be needed for just one concentrated effort, or perhaps even a vacuum filter set to speed up filtering but in UK they are pricey. It will be interesting to hear what others think is worth the money if you are keeping bees for extra income. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:58:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "T & M Weatherhead" " As it is the end of the season, I would have thought that the hive would not > be in a mood to want to swarm. I would have thought that they would have > just stayed with the one virgin who got out first and knocked over the other > cells" Biology books such as Mark Winston, Biology of the Honeybee, 1987 contain charts showing a secondary peak of swarming in August/Sep. The causes seem not to be clear as such swarms have no chance of survival in the wild. But the fact of the behaviour has always made me cautious. However, Winston implies such swaams are headed by an old queen - so if she has been removed and we are considering just multiple emergency cells perhaps I should relax. As bees never RELIABLY do what is expected, my beekeeping operates in the zone between 'probable' and 'possible'. I plan for 'probable' and take precautions against 'possible' as in UK we need to find better more reliable methods for keeping bees in or near urban areas - it is difficult to be 3 miles from any houses and if you are there may not be forage all season. In countries with much more space presumably you do no need to be so careful. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 04:02:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive with no honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glenn said: I thought I had read on this list of people over wintering nucs? What you want to do has and is being done but success is not always had. Too many variables to list in one post but as Mike said time is not on your side. Be sure you use plenty of young bees to overwinter if you overwinter a small nuc. Give the bees everything they need to overwinter when you make up the nuc. Young bees shook in on frames of honey might be better than sealed brood because as the brood emerges the the nest area if in the center might split and the small cluster might move to one side of the box or the other putting the cluster too far away from the honey in cold weather. Requeening with your left over queen might be a better option but even requeening this late in Ohio might be problematic. Most times successful beekeeping involves doing certain beekeeping jobs at the correct time of the year (for your area). Many times failure is directly related to the wrong time of the year (as Mike pointed out). Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:31:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: sugar honey was Wax foundation In-Reply-To: <3F4DBDA2.28031.859E8B@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <3F4DBDA2.28031.859E8B@localhost>, Dave writes > But you haven't responded to the issue of why you insultingly >continue to accuse the beekeeping industry of (criminally) >producing "sugar honey." I have been thinking about the issue of feeding in the light of the many views expressed and questions posed on this and other lists. I want to get it right for my own students, here in Cornwall, UK. I, too have reread the Johanssons' excellent book " Some Important Operations in Bee Management" which I think Robin is quoting from. The expression "sugar- honey is used on p81, in the section "Feeding to force honey into the supers" which follows a section "Replacement feeding". I do not know if studies made on feeding HFCS counter some of the problems reported and cautions suggested by the Johanssons' who, after all, wrote their papers before 1978. We do have random testing over here by Trading Standards, and amusingly, a batch of honey a year or so ago became suspect because of high sucrose content. Test confirmed it was not cane sugar and was probably from borage. BTW I have had no-one come up with a satisfactory explanation of the high di-saccharide component of honeys assessed by school children and published in July Apis as follows. In message <3.0.6.32.20000709214258.007b7c80@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>, Malcolm (Tom) Sanford writes >Sugars found in honey were mostly fructose (six carbon atoms) and sucrose >(12 carbon atoms). Also present were smaller components of larger sugars >(18 carbon atoms). The Michigan sample was 31 percent fructose, 55.1 >percent sucrose and 13.9 percent sugars with 18 carbon atoms. The Arizona >honey had slightly less fructose (30.2 percent), more sucrose (66.5 >percent) and much less of sugars with 18 carbon atoms (3.3 percent). It >would be interesting to see the sugar analysis for the European samples. >My guess is that the Pine Forest honey would be greatly different, as it >more than likely is honeydew, produced from secretions of other insects. I was one of only 2 who commented to Tom about this. Any follow-up or comments from the List? My own recommendations to beginners largely follow the J's as follows: feed in order of priority as you learn 1 colonies with less than 20 pounds of honey stores in spring and summer (learn to assess the weight of stores in each hive opening for swarm control and health assessment) 2 swarms after a couple of days (to reduce disease risk) 3 nuclei and new queen colonies until flying bees are bringing in serious nectar 4 autumn colonies with less than 30 lb honey stores (novices leave honey on to this value in supers) (40 lb if possible) 5 if you cock this up, use candy or fondant depending on timing or even a bag of sugar in the winter with a cup of warm water upturned over the feed hole 6 leave spring feeding until you have years of experience Overall the J's suggest the principle "feeding should be considered a necessary evil that is to be avoided whenever possible" (p70). In common with other beekeepers in Cornwall, we have copious pollen most of the year and flying weather at least intermittently throughout the winter. We have a strong ivy flow at the moment and this can catch beekeepers out in the spring when their bees swarm early through lack of space. I am hopeful that having fed the bees with sucrose syrup (about 60%) to fill the brood chamber, they will at least put the ivy up into the supers, where I might try using it to seed set honey later this year. They are expanding rapidly on it and hopefully will be strong in the spring as a result. I find it curious that the ivy is often stored a bit like fondant, soft and fine and is readily used up in the spring. The crystallised ivy is rather hard and usually surrounds the "fondant". -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 06:50:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Hive with no honey? In-Reply-To: <002b01c37b28$0927fdf0$037b5acf@SBSC6AQ2BK4O5V> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > I thought I >had read on this list of people over wintering nucs? Are my plans crazy? > >Glenn Yes, some do overwinter nucs, but timing is critical. When do your queens shut down in Ohio? Your killing frost is in mid-October? That is probably three weeks after ours, here in Vermont. I make my nucs for over-wintering in mid to late July. Too early, and they will swarm on the goldenrod flow. Too late, and they won't be plugged with young bees...as they should be. Are your plans crazy? Not really...it is probably just too late. I say probably, because I don't know Ohio beekeeping. I guess you won't know until you try. Isn't this all just a big experiment, anyway. If you try...without success, then you know the date for making up nucs should be moved back to mid-August. Mike Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:48:44 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: sugar honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Probably a basic question : What is the saccharose content of a "honey sugar" (I mean the saccharose content, measured in spring in extracted honey sugar, after autumn feeding, syrup storage by bees in hives and consequent molecules saccharose break down into glucose, if I am not mistaken) Hervé Laval - Québec ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:40:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Late swarms [was broodless periods & varroa] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin Said: > Biology books such as Mark Winston, Biology of the Honeybee, 1987 contain > charts showing a secondary peak of swarming in August/Sep. The causes seem > not to be clear as such swarms have no chance of survival in the wild. Such swarms are consistent with strong fall nectar flows, like the goldenrod/aster flow we see here in the Northeast U.S. In fact, I just lost such a swarm from a nuc two days ago. I have a couple of nucs I hadn't checked them for about 10-12 days, and when I got to them, one had swarmed. I should have realized this would happen, since that nuc was very strong going into a strong goldenrod flow and good, warm weather. As a friend of mine pointed out - it doesn't matter what the books say - a colony that's crowded going into a strong flow can swarm any time of the year, regardless of the fact that it can't survive. FWIW - a beekeeper about 40 miles away just reported a 77 lb increase in one hive over the past 14 days. That's a strong fall flow! Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:01:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, One reader requested references for reading material on Schneirla's School in Behavior. Here are a few references: Mayer & Schneirla (1964) Principles of Animal Psychology. Selected Writings of T. C. Schneirla (1972). Aronon, Tobach, Lehrman & Rosenblatt, editors. Essays in Memory of T. C. Schneirla (1970). Same editors as above. Tavolga, W. (1969). Principles of Animal Behavior. The material requires university graduate school training in bioloby & behavior. The last book is easiest as a short introduction. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:27:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "lanuage" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To Herve Lege, Hi. In a message of Sept. 9, you requested that I provide a full proper treatment of the DL controversy. It is unfortunately impossible to properly fully deal with a scientific controversy that has been going on for over 35 years, in e-mails to Bee-L. I have been advised by the moderators of this website that messages should preferably be not more tan 500 words long. You also requested reading material that would enable you to make up your own mind. I suggest: Wenner & Wells (1990). Anatomy of a Controversy: The Question of a "Language" Among Bees. Columbia University Press. Wenner, A. M. (2002). The elusive honey bee dance "language" hypothesis. J. Insect Behavior. (This article is available on the Internet.) Rosin , R. (1999).What is wrong with the honeybee "dance language" hypothesis? American bee Journal, vol. 139(no.9), p. 659. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:13:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: Re: [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To Dave Cushman, Hi. In your latest message (of Sept. 14) you responded to my question (as to what exactly you observed that led you to state that you saw foragers dancing without dance-attendants) by stating that you "observed dances without obvious attendants". Sorry, but this does not fully qualify as convincing evidence for the existence of dances without dance-attendants. As I had already explained in an earlier message, under certain circumstances dance-attendants can be easily overlooked by a casual observer (without a careful analysis of videotapes in slow motion). I also explained why this is so. In other words, present dance-attendants are not necessarily always obvious dance-attendance. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:19:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BeemanNick@AOL.COM Subject: Mite roll MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know of any good resources that I could find pictures of people doing a Ether mite roll? I would like to use some of these pictures for a speech. Thanks Nick in Iowa ISU Student :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:57:48 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Beehives and Hurricanes With Hurricane Isabel approaching the east coast of the USA, http://www.weather.com/maps/news/atlstorm13/index_large.html http://www.weather.com/maps/news/atlstorm13/projectedpath_large.html this might be a good time to compare storm prep as applied to bee yards. About all I am doing is making sure that all my hives have their straps tight. I have adjustable "webbed belt" type straps that loop around the entire hive. Some are ratchet straps, some have friction "belt buckles". There are cheap ones that come four to a pack that my father made the error of buying at Mall-Wart for his hives, but they rotted in the sun, and broke within 90 days of deployment. If my hives were stacked with supers, I'd likely drive stakes, and attach the straps to the stakes rather than simply running them around bottom board and cover, but my supers are all off. What do others do? I simply don't trust a brick to keep the lid on a hive, as high winds are common around here. Hurricanes Bertha and Fran (1996) and Floyd (1999) followed roughly the same path, so hives in low-lying areas of eastern North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, and/or Maryland could be flooded out if not moved to higher ground. Even 10 feet of elevation can make a big difference. jim (News - Fairly Unbalanced. We report, you decipher.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:57:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Beehives and Hurricanes In-Reply-To: <04a501c37bfe$4f952570$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 15 Sep 2003 at 22:57, James Fischer wrote a good reminder: > With Hurricane Isabel approaching the east coast of the USA, > .... > this might be a good time to compare storm prep as applied > to bee yards. There is a limit to what can be done; however, get to the hives as quickly as possible afterwards to stop any robbing that is occurring (hives crushed by falling trees, for example). I was unable to get to most of my bees for weeks after Hurricane Hugo, because of mud and downed trees. Also gasoline was unavailable for a week or so. Other than some robbing right after the storm, the bees fared surprisingly well, and the goldenrod still had a pretty good flow. Yellow jackets robbed the bees worse than I had ever seen though. Mosquito spraying seems to inevitably follow hurricanes and will cause ten times the losses that the storm actually causes. It hit my bees on goldenrod and aster, knocking out the field force and making the clusters too small to survive even our mild South Carolina winters. One important point I've never seen in any published lists of hurricane preps is to move all vehicles into the open, so they won't be crushed by falling trees. I saved two trucks and a motorcycle from Hugo by moving them from their usual parking places to an open spot. As soon as you can get map of a fairly certain path, think about where the winds will be. This storm will move mainly north as it makes landfall and comes inland. If you are in the eyewall path, you will have exceedingly strong east winds, followed by a lull (don't be fooled into going outside) and then west winds. If the eyewall is west of you, you will be on the strong side of the storm. If the storm is moving at 20 miles per hour, and the circular winds are 120, the actual winds you will experience will be 140 miles per hour. On the west side of the eyewall, you can subtract the forward speed, so the winds will be only 100 (still dangerous, of course). Don't go outside to do this, of course, but you can tell where the center of the storm is by (virtually) facing the wind and extending your right hand perpendicular to the wind direction. You will be pointing to the eye of the storm. Much of the storm damage is caused by vortexes or embedded tornadoes. There were about 3,000 of these in South Carolina during Hugo's path across the state. If you are on the coast, don't even think of staying. Storm surges can run 10 to 20 foot tides, with huge waves on top of that. On the right side of the storm most beach development will be destroyed. Also don't even think of riding out the hurricane in a mobile home. Hugo destroyed thousands of them. Reinforced masonry buildings are the strongest, but a direct hit by a vortex can even destroy these. I was in a masonry home during Hugo. A tree fell on the home, but it did not collapse; it only had a hole punched in the roof from a projecting limb. It's not a bad idea to have some plastic sheeting or tarps on hand before the storm, as it will be needed but probably unavailable after the storm. Get your chain saw tuned up and sharpened, an extra chain is also a good idea. You won't be able to get service afterwards. My chain saw hardly cooled off for about six weeks after Hugo. I helped neighbors clean up, then when gas was available I went to my bees, and usually had to cut my way to them. Pines generally snapped about 12 feet up. Hardwoods were uprooted. Hugo destroyed the equivalent of enough timber to build a home for every family in West Virginia. Trees that did not actually break or uproot still could not be used as saw logs or plywood cutting, because of internal twists and separations of the grain. This actually made them dangerous to saw. Some were salvaged for pulpwood, but the mills simply could not handle all of them. You can also forget about getting lumber for awhile after the storm. Plywood will be out of stock every time you go to the lumber yard. Generators? Fuggetabout buying one afterward.... Cash is a good thing. Banks don't operate without computers, and computers don't operate without power. Canned groceries, likewise.... A little thinking can save a lot of pain later. I could not believe it, when I watched housewives buying frozen food during the rush to prepare for Hugo. Much of it wound up in stinking piles at the curbside, because power was out for a couple weeks. Dave Green SC USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:27:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Beehives and Hurricanes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim: Just another trash eking a living in a trailer, I am—-and probably you too are—-aware of another anchoring device that people use to tie down the “match boxes” that dare tornadoes in Oklahoma. Don’t know the technical jargon for this screw-in, iron rod with “barb” and a hook at the tips, but you can buy those at home improvement stores. Once screwed into the sod and tied down, it will clench the object mighty tight in near death-grip; to get it out, you in fact have to screw it back out. My doublewide has a dozens of them, all embedded into the cement-poured runners to strengthen them even further. Wishing you the best. Yoon Shawnee, OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:27:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glenn Hile Subject: Sugar Dusting In 2001 there was a thread concerning using powder sugar dusting for Varoa control. Has anyone continued the practice and have any longer term studies to report? Opinions? Glenn :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:14:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Test Please allow me to test a way to shorten URL's. If this doesn't work, suggestions please? This method works on several other forums. To see these bees [url=http://www.ourcpsite.com/timv/threebees.jpg] click here [/url] Thanks Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:45:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: apimondia 200 Greetings I was recently in Ljubljana for the Apimondia 2003. I was wondering if any list members were also there and could share some photos with me, as my camera malfunctioned and I did not get good shots of the conference and exhibit hall. For those who were not there, there are some pictures on-line at: http://www.cebelarska-zveza-slo.si/Ap/Ap_galerija_2.htm pb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:05:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Sugar Dusting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/16/2003 6:30:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, ghile@CORE.COM writes: In 2001 there was a thread concerning using powder sugar dusting for Varoa control. Has anyone continued the practice and have any longer term studies to report? Opinions? Glenn, I'm in my second year and so I don't have a history of dusting bees. I did it once last year and saw the results were good. Like dusting with talcum powder.....mites slide right off and fall through the mesh floor. I don't have a whole lotta mites this year so far, so I haven't done it yet. Kathy Cox, Northern California, Italian, 18 hives :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:23:44 -0300 Reply-To: Milton Xiscatti Michel Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milton Xiscatti Michel Organization: CTS Subject: [Bee-L] bee "lanuage" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will You Bee at the Dance? Bees Go with the Flow by John Whitfield http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/animals/a_different_perspective.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:42:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Wintering nucs In-Reply-To: <002c01c371fe$d6c56b40$5b85bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <002c01c371fe$d6c56b40$5b85bc3e@oemcomputer>, Christine Gray writes >We could adapt for the UK climate - and perhaps >more of us could start to make and over-winter nucs for sale to new >beekeepers in spring. Quite a few of us do this in the UK. Old queens can be kept on to replace in next years' nucs, new queens even on 1 frame of brood and copious stores can give 4 supers if nurtured properly (a colleague - not me). I usually use 6-frames (half-size National using 9mm ply or tall 14" sq frame hive, designed to fit over a standard National for warmth) with a stronger brood than this going into the autumn. Swarming can be a problem with early build up in spring. Seasons seem to be changing enough to have to get out a couple of weeks earlier to gauge their needs. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:10:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Organic bee products In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030830200917.03137ec0@pop3.wcoil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <5.1.0.14.0.20030830200917.03137ec0@pop3.wcoil.com>, Tim Arheit writes >The standard is virtually impossible to meet and completely unreasonable in >my opinion. This is the tragedy of free enterprise reducing others' freedoms. Why do we proclaim democratic freedoms so loudly whilst they are being eroded by the prevailing agricultural and industrial paradigm based on exploitation? I do my best to grow and eat organic food, but can only hope my bees are foraging where there is minimal spraying. Alas, they can be drenched by fungicides (as they fly through the daffodil fields) which contain a so-called inert substance which wets them horribly. I have to disagree about the "unreasonable" - regrettably the 2 freedoms are incompatible, which is why I and many others are opposed to, for example, transgenic crops. It seems reasonable to claim that bees produce honey from GM free plants and if we have to keep 6 miles from every field, quite soon, with a smattering of approved acres, each centre taking over 100 sq miles out of honey production, then soon we won't be able to do this. We trade individual freedom for global business freedom. Interesting that a Malaysian state banned insecticides because of a resistant insect which became dominant and then crop yields rocketed. And they discovered that the reason insect levels went down considerably as well was because spiders made a come-back! We must rethink our values IMHO. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:41:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Overwintering nucs In-Reply-To: <004b01c3715d$cb139020$31256118@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <004b01c3715d$cb139020$31256118@newdell>, Lloyd Spear writes >Here in upstate NY I overwinter both on top of regular hives and in single >5-frame boxes left to their own devices. On top - is this with separate entrances and mesh to share warmth or with bees able to mix as if 2/3-queen hives? -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:43:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Wintering nucs (was wax foundation) In-Reply-To: <00e701c3719d$2ef94c80$6578bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <00e701c3719d$2ef94c80$6578bc3e@oemcomputer>, Christine Gray writes >So if I was experimenting, I >would start with 5 or 6 frame nucs on very tall combs (Eastern Europeans >have used combs 12 inches wide by 14 inches deep), after calculaing how much >fuel the nuc is going to need and checking that the 60-80 pounds needed can >be accomodated above the early winter cluster. My best performing hives have 14"sq frames. A 11 frame box often goes into the winter with more than 90lb honey and pollen and surges in the spring and *can* give a good 50lb surplus on the spring flow. A 6-frame nuc might hold 40lb if I was lucky but it is not necessary, less stores and more bees is better. But they do well on their own, isolated from other hives. They are a bit heavy to stack on top of a full sized colony for warmth. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:48:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Honey and healing (was wax foundation) In-Reply-To: <007901c36e7e$1d406540$d884bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <007901c36e7e$1d406540$d884bc3e@oemcomputer>, Christine Gray writes >If it was pollen that had the healing properties , it >would be mentioned in the reports - but I have seen no mention. Interesting. I have read that pollen contains bioflavonoids. The combination of vitamin C with them is highly recommended for many situations. Propolis can contain 1/3 pollen, which must add to its healing properties. I have also heard that pollen is rather variable in its amino-acids and hence bees can suffer if too long with a single source (like alder) but that they often plug cells which have carried diseases such as EFB and slow (stop?/kill?) the bacteria. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:38:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Broodless period & varroa In-Reply-To: <001901c37487$cdb2a5f0$e5ad72d8@SOD> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <001901c37487$cdb2a5f0$e5ad72d8@SOD>, Todd writes >It would appear that the broodless period had a substantial impact on >total varroa population. I've also noticed that the queens seem to be laying at >an accelerated pace, seemingly making up for lost time. We have noticed periods after a brood break due to poor weather that mite falls are low. I suspect that they have all charged into the new brood and later counts will show them higher. One day soon, I will count my samples rather than assessing them as low, medium (wait) or high (treat). -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:25:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vincenc Petruna Subject: Re: apimondia 200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Peter, I remember you as a former member of Slvene beekeeping group Cebelar. My photos (about 50) from Apomondia 2003 in Ljubljana can be found in the Photos section of Yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cebelar2/ (captions are in slovene language only, sorry). To see the photos visitor must join the group for a moment. If i knew you were in Ljubljana, we should meet each other. Regards, Vincenc Petruna Domača stran: http://www2.arnes.si/~sscrnomelj/ Domača stran druątva: http://www2.arnes.si/~sscrnomelj/drustvo/ Debatna skupina: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cebelar/ Čebelja najfotografija sezone: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cebelar1/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Borst" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 7:45 PM Subject: [BEE-L] apimondia 200 > Greetings > I was recently in Ljubljana for the Apimondia 2003. I was wondering if any > list members were also there and could share some photos with me, as my > camera malfunctioned and I did not get good shots of the conference and > exhibit hall. > > For those who were not there, there are some pictures on-line at: > > http://www.cebelarska-zveza-slo.si/Ap/Ap_galerija_2.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:59:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Bee Language Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, barry@birkey.com In-Reply-To: <001b01c37942$fb387710$7604c518@gollum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Please excuse my absence from the lengthy exchange about bee "language." For the past few months I have been involved in a very complicated bee research project and have not had time to respond. Within a few days I expect to fashion a response to the numerous postings on the subject. If I read the news coverage correctly, it appears that the bee language controversy has much in parallel with the subject of a television program that airs tonight at 8 p.m. on the History Channel, "Mavericks, Miracles, and Medicine." The documentary film maker, Jeffrey Tuchman, "focuses on those who helped advance medicine and sometimes paid a price for the innovation" according the account. That is, many major advances in science and medicine are accomplished by those who go against the "consensus" of the community (those who adhere to dogma). As Mark Twain wrote (In "Dr. Loeb's Incedible Discovery"): "Whatever new thing a Consensus [bets against], bet your money on that very card and do not be afraid." Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:21:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Sugar Dusting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Glenn Hile" " In 2001 there was a thread concerning using powder sugar dusting for Varoa > control. Has anyone continued the practice and have any longer term > studies to report? Opinions?" Sugar dusting is generally only as a suppressive measure, not a control on its own. Sugar dusting will increase the drop of live mites, but those are only removed from the colony if the hive has a mesh floor. It works as a control only in the right hive AND if the colony has been manipulated into a suitable condition. You might like to re-visit my post of 10 Sep, headed 'Broodless period & varooa' - or perhaps not. It explained how non-chemical methods (such as sugar dusting) can be fully effective for control of varooa if the colony has been split into a broodless swarm and a queenless brood nest. All varooa in the swarm are 'in the open' and exposed to measures such as sugar dusting - and three weeks later, so are all the mites in the original brood, now fully emerged. But u need a suitable hive in which to acheive this split at the peak of the annual brood cycle, or the method involves excessive labour. Robin Dartington. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:21:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: Two queens in hives ! (was Broodless period ...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob - Maybe tracheals, huh? Down here near Baton Rouge we kinda ignore those things. I don't see signs of nosema, though. Walter ----- Original Message ----- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:05:26 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Matthew Shepherd Subject: A bad view of bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was searching the Internet for bee-related stories and came across an= article in the Seymour (Indiana) Tribune that I thought I would share. It= is a classic example of misconceptions and incorrect stereotyping of bees= leading to baseless fears and pointless effort from all involved. The= opening paragraphs and the URL are pasted in below. The only beacon of= sanity was the local beekeeper, of course. After the article there was a response form via which readers can submit= comments. I did. Maybe others on Bee-L might like to as well. Matthew ************************************************* Bee situation has homeowner buzzing mad By CLINT MORGAN; September 15, 2003 Full article in The Tribune (Seymour, Indiana), at:= http://www.tribtown.com/Main.asp?SectionID=3D1&SubSectionID=3D1&ArticleID= =3D7885 There are people who are allergic to bees. There are people who are scared= of bees. And then there is Shannon Skaggs. Skaggs, a Seymour resident who lives at 725 Noble St., discovered early= this spring just what dealing with bees is all about. The Skaggs family= discovered in April that there were an estimated 50,000 honeybees living= in a hollowed out maple tree in their front yard. The problem presented itself after a massive swarm of bees crowded their= neighborhood streets and threatened to wreak havoc on anyone who stepped= outside. Luckily for the family and those around them, no one was injured= or stung. In fact, even now, five months after the initial discovery, no= one has been stung by the bees. But that doesn=92t lessen the problem in= Skaggs=92 mind. =93It=92s dangerous for everyone around here, and we have been trying to= get rid of the problem, but it=92s been so hard to get help,=94 Skaggs= said ********************************************************* ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Conservation Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at www.xerces.org ______________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:43:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Two queens in hives ! (was Broodless period ...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter said: Maybe tracheals, huh? Down here near Baton Rouge we kinda ignore those things. Those were his thoughts. I highly respect his opinion. In our area we see a small ball of bees usually queenright and a hive full of honey with a tracheal mite infestation but could be we overlook TM because we do not reconize as we think another problem is the cause. Walter said: I don't see signs of nosema, though. You usually do not see signs of nosema *unless* a very high nosema problem. Nosema is easy to detect in a field test. I have tested a beekeepers bees which were doing great he said and found nosema in every bee we looked at. If you never treat for nosema or TM I would at least test a few bees. Send a sample to Beltsville bee lab. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:49:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian said: If I read the news coverage correctly, it appears that the bee language controversy has much in parallel with the subject of a television program that airs tonight at 8 p.m. on the History Channel, "Mavericks, Miracles, and Medicine." I watched the program and found the program interesting . I guess the mavericks of heart surgery could be compared to the mavericks of bee dance language! Adrian said: The documentary film maker, Jeffrey Tuchman, "focuses on those who helped advance medicine and sometimes paid a price for the innovation" according the account. Please do not let the DL hypothesis make you end up like Dr. Wells and Dr. Jackson did in the documentary as they paid a very big price. Dr. Wells commited suicide and Dr. Jackson ended up in a mental institution. Rejection by your peers can be overwelming I suppose. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:53:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Mares Subject: Re: Manhattan bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear list, An acquaintance in NYC sent the following message and I agreed to forward it to BEE-L, in light of the recent discussions of Aurora's ordinance problems. Her name is Jill Goodman and her email is I have bees on the roof of my brownstone in New York City and the Department of Health wants me to get rid of them. A NYC ordinance does forbid the keeping of wild animals and lists honeybees among the forbidden animals. I am trying to find other people who have had experiences with ordinance against beekeeping or Health Departments that think bees are a nuisance per se, whether they have done anything to bother anyone or not. Bill Mares/Mares Apiaries 429 South Willard St., Burlington, VT 05401 Phone: 802-863-4938 Fax: 802-864-7982 Bee Happy in your work! _________________________________________________________________ Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today! https://broadband.msn.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:47:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Manhattan bees, New Jersey too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bill Mares forwards the concerns of a Manhattan beekeeper to BEE-L. Coincidence that while Bill was posting I was talking to Mr. Thomas Fuscaldo, a New Jersey beekeeper, who is going through the same thing (fighting beekeeping ordinances) in his towm (Paterson, NJ). Paterson's Board of Health will meet this Thursday at 7:30PM to discuss enforcing a beekeeping ordinance that is already on the books (or so I gather from Mr. Fuscaldo), but which has heretofore been less than zealously enforced. Apparently, there have been complaints lodged against two beekeepers in Paterson, and local officials are looking to extant ordinances to address the complaints. I mentioned the victory (of sorts) in Aurora, CO. and said I'd try to muster all the support I can. Unfortunately, the details I have from Tom are sketchy at best, and the best I could come up with regarding contacts to offer input is a number to call at Paterson City Hall (201) 784-0600 to query if the meeting might be canceled due to huricane Isabel. If anyone in the area is inclined to attend, the meeting will be held Thursday, September 18 at 7:30 PM at City Hall located at 295 Closter Dock Road. Aaron Morris - thinking what we need are a few more ordinances in this world! Next thing you know it'll be against local ordinances for bees to dance and communicate at the same time!!!! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:26:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: FGMO-Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, In the Sept. issue of the American Bee Journal on page 727 is an article giving a method/ formula about adding thymol to FGMO. In print even before the results of the primative testing is finnished. Using FGMO all season is one thing but adding thymol all season even with honey supers on is another. I have been putting in thymol all week (Apilife var) and the stuff stinks. I won't even keep the gloves/ Apilife var in the truck cab with me. quote from page 729 of article: "we are merely looking for ways to improve its effacy" refering to traditional FGMO. I told the list before FGMO was tested in Missouri under a Sares grant as per Dr. Rodriguez method from the internet and the FGMO was a complete failure. I am disappointed my friend Joe Graham (editer ABJ) published a untested formula for using mineral oil and thymol in bee hives. Thymol can contaminate honey as has been proven overseas . Warnings to that effect are sent with ApiLife var. American Bee journal readers understand the risks with using the Dr. Rodriguez formula. The thymol small hive beetle traps from the article are remarkably similar to the SHb thymol traps which were tried in Florida three years ago and did not work. I can assure the list the traps will not prevent a strong small hive beetle infestation of a weak hive. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:12:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: apimondia 200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All "Vincenc Petruna" posted... Photos section of Yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cebelar2/ Unfortunately the photos section is set for members only, any chance of altering the groups settings? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 05:44:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Bower Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol "I told the list before FGMO was tested in Missouri under a Sares grant as per Dr. Rodriguez method from the internet and the FGMO was a complete failure". I follow the list closely and learn much from the postings. Sometimes I pick up valuable information, sometimes I laugh aloud, sometimes the postings are long winded. I am sure this has been stated before, but I can not let this go by without commenting. I have used FGMO with no other chemicals for 2 years with great success. I am not sure why the test in Missouri was a failure, but it is obviously not that way for all of us. Many that use FGMO are simply looking for a way to get the harsh chemicals out of the hives and away from our bees. "I am disappointed my friend Joe Graham (editer ABJ) published a untested formula for using mineral oil and thymol in bee hives". I would question the use of Thymol being "untested." Or do you simply mean because it hasnt been tested by someone of your choosing? I believe that everyone has the honeybee's best interest at heart, we just pursue it differently. I wish you all the best in your pursuit! Kurt :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:24:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol In-Reply-To: <200309170945.h8H9VTiN014150@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The selling point of FGMO is that it is a "natural" method of Varroa control and uses a safe chemical. In Maine, ApiLifeVar was approved under a Section 18 for Varroa control. The State Bee Inspector in our State newsletter reminded those who might use it that while Apistan and Cumophose carry a Caution label, Thymol carries a Danger label, which means it is highly toxic - only a few drops to a teaspoon will kill, while Caution takes over an ounce). With FGMO you are putting it into an aerosol form, plus in an applicator under pressure. I doubt the EPA had that in mind as an application method for Thymol. I wonder why FGMO continually has to have things added, the formulation changed, application method altered, or the hive manipulated to be effective (just take a look at its BeeL "evolution" in the archives where each stage was said to control Varroa). Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:13:59 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vincenc Petruna Subject: Re: Apimondia 2003 in Ljubljana, Slovenia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Cushman" > Unfortunately the photos section is set for members only, any chance of > altering the groups settings? Nope. I wonder who is interested for Apimondida photos, so I need group statistics. Just become a member for a while, enjoy watching the photos and leave the group then :-) If many people decide to watch the photos, I 'll probably make the captions in English language. Regards, Vincenc Petruna Homepage: http://www2.arnes.si/~sscrnomelj/ Beekeepers society Crnomelj, Slovenia : http://www2.arnes.si/~sscrnomelj/drustvo/ Slovene honeybee discussion group : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cebelar/ The honeybee photo of the year (exhibition&voting): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cebelar1/ Apimondia photos: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cebelar2/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:33:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kurt said: I follow the list closely and learn much from the postings. Sometimes I pick up valuable information, sometimes I laugh aloud, sometimes the postings are long winded. I do not have time today as busy with bee work to pull up my prior post ( yesterday I typed my name into a archive search and got 1035 hits) but FGMO was tested by three noted beekeepers. The beekeeper in charge had two master beekeeping certificates. Kurt said: I am sure this has been stated before, but I can not let this go by without commenting. I have used FGMO with no other chemicals for 2 years with great success. Most hives will go two years without varroa treatment. Too early for you to call your treatment a success. Kurt said: I am not sure why the test in Missouri was a failure, but it is obviously not that way for all of us. Many that use FGMO are simply looking for a way to get the harsh chemicals out of the hives and away from our bees. Tymol is harsh. Using thymol while supers are on has never been used before until Dr. R. decided to use thymol in his cord formula. Kurt said: I would question the use of Thymol being "untested." Or do you simply mean because it hasnt been tested by someone of your choosing? I have no problem with FGMO as the use of mineral oil in hives causes no problem that I can see. I wish the effacy of FGMO was higher so I could use and recommend FGMo myself. It is the use of thymol *all year long and when the supers are on* I have an objection too . Dr. R. says in the article on page 728 that the whole thymol/FGMO is simply a trial so far. I recommend to do the trial, test the honey/wax for contamination and then publish your findings. Kurt said: Although this trial is I believe that everyone has the honeybee's best interest at heart, we just pursue it differently. Just because Dr. R. wants FGMO to be the magic bullet we are all looking for will not make it so. If FGMO worked so great why is Dr. R. always looking for a way to improve efficacy? Every year his methods have changed. 1. mineral oil alone 2.added the fogger 3.added the cords 4.added honey & beeswax 5. adding thymol I do not have a problem with Dr. R. and respect his and other people trying to find a low cost , simple and easy way to control varroa. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:44:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee Language In-Reply-To: <001501c37cb5$81a36600$26a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian said: > The documentary film maker, Jeffrey Tuchman, "focuses on those who > helped advance medicine and sometimes paid a price for the innovation" > according the account. The key word here is "sometimes". Innovators are not always disparaged, in fact it is the exception, which is why it makes for good television. There are also excellent TV shows on medical "quacks" (who far outnumber the true innovators) which also make for good television. To buck the tide does not mean you are in either category, it just means you have to convince your community that you are an innovator. In some cases it is easy and in some, hard. What the TV shows prove is that science eventually sorts things out, which is a hopeful conclusion, since it shows the system works. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 06:50:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol In-Reply-To: <200309170945.h8H9VTiN014150@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: overwintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James asks "On top - is this with separate entrances and mesh to share warmth or with bees able to mix as if 2/3-queen hives?" Separate entrances and bottoms...to share warmth. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:46:26 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Waldemar Galka Subject: Toronto area this Friday. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I am going to be in the Toronto area this Friday (Sept. 19th) and will have a few hours free in the afternoon. Is there anything of beekeeping interest to see (I have done tourist sightseeing in Toronto in the past)? Perhaps at the University of Guelph? I'd appreciate any suggestions. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:25:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "E.A. Vogt" Subject: sunflower honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All --- I've heard some beekeepers in northern California have sold "sunflower" honey. My initial lit. search has revealed that various cultivars of sunflower produce lots of nectar and pollen, and bees are important pollinators. Anyone out there attempt/succeed in producing sunflower honey ? I would appreciate any suggestions. Sincerely, Elizabeth Vogt Vashon, WA (island just southwest of Seattle) beekeeper with 13 hives, and growing. and a sunflower lover ... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:01:59 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: sunflower honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth, Sunflower honey used to be the main crop here in my area of Central West France. I suppose you were wanting details from somebody closer to home! I cannot help in cultivar names - those here will mean little to you - but apart from that - any other info. just ask. As a taster - our hives would harvest between 15kg and 50kg of sunflower honey according to place, cultivar and meteo. conditions. Regards Peter. For those being or to subjected to "foul weather and winds" - keep safe and thinking about your bees! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:03:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Fantasyland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Go to http://www.albertabeekeepers.org/ and check it out." > Well geez, I went there but the program wasn't online! Wazzup with > that? Visit http://www.albertabeekeepers.org/ now for details. Or visit my diary for more info at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ for a little more background. Or, skip the boring stuff in my diary and just click on http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/ABA2003.htm allen -- thinking your wish is their command! The ABA is responsive! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:47:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Bower Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol Bob said: "but FGMO was tested by three noted beekeepers". I am sure you would agree that there are at least 3 beekeepers who have tested FGMO and found it to be effective in the treatment of varroa as well. I am glad to hear about the "master beekeeping certificates". Bob said: Too early for you to call your treatment a success. While I agree that some colonies may be resistant to varroa for 2 years, I dont believe that can be said about "all my colonies" Yes, I am a hobbiest with 15 colonies. I would be interested in finding out if others are willing to risk there colonies "without a successful treatment" as you call FGMO. I am glad that you pointed out the fact that Dr. R is using Thymol in cord form. Apparently there is some confusion, as Bill posted it as... "With FGMO you are putting it into an aerosol form, plus in an applicator under pressure. I doubt the EPA had that in mind as an application method for Thymol". Bob, you also point out the fact that the formula for FGMO is constantly changing. I hardly think that the changes made thus far can be construed as significant alterations 2.added the fogger (different method of application) 3.added the cords (additional method for continual application) 4.added honey & beeswax (products already in the hive) Isnt interesting that it is a "concern" that DR. R is continually trying to improve his formula. It would concern me if beekeeping never improved. Where would we be today without the removeable frame, foundation wax or the honey extractor. I say let those continue to improve and invent if they have the ability to do so. Thanks for the exchange, Kurt Bower Julian, North Carolina :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:07:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Too early for you to call your treatment a success. > > While I agree that some colonies may be resistant to varroa for 2 > years My 'toolbox hive' died this summer. It had no treatments for the 2-1/2 years I had it. Why it died, I don't know. I could not open it, and never managed it. I never saw a varroa on an entrance bee for 2 years. (I saw one 2 years ago). In case you are wondering, the cells mostly measured 5.2mm. Some measured 5.3, but I haven't done a serious post mortem, other than noting there was no brood, so I assume the queen petered out. http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2001/diary032901.htm http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2002/diary091002.htm http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2003/diary032003.htm http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2003/diary041003.htm http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2003/diary061003.htm > 2.added the fogger (different method of application) That idea actually came from a post on this very forum. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9604D&L=bee-l&P=R2836 mentions it. I was looking for the original suggestion, but maybe it was in a personal communication, anyhow... Unfortunately, Dr. Pedro did not enjoy the hard questioning he got from some members of this list, and chose to go elsewhere. I appreciate the rigour dealt to anyone making claims here, but I think we could be a bit more kind sometimes. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/ABA2003.htm Come to Edmonton for Nov 3,4,5. I'll buy you a beer. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:20:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kurt said: I am glad that you pointed out the fact that Dr. R is using Thymol in cord form. The EPA will never approve thymol in cords on a hive while the honey supers are on. So the application as presented is illegal and could end up with your honey crop smelling of thymol. Dr, R. is putting 100 grams of thymol in his cord formula (pg. 730 ABJ). As I said I have not got a problem with people using mineral oil, honey and beeswax in the cords. When I first read about FGMO I was excited. After use I was disappointed! The problem I have got is (as I said earlier) in using thymol *in cords* all season and especially using thymol when honey supers are on. Read the article by Dr. R. and that is exactly what he is saying! He may now come on BEE-L and say now that he is in the deep water that he meant different. Dr. R. describes thymol in his trial simply as "an organic plant extract" (pg. 727 ABJ ) instead as Bill , myself and the EPA sees thymol. Consider what I am saying Kurt and I believe you will agree that thymol has no place in the hive all season and especially while supers are on. Kurt said; Isnt interesting that it is a "concern" that DR. R is continually trying to improve his formula. Will Dr. R. ever find a FGMO method which works? Perhaps we should all send Dr. Rodriguez a bill for the dead hives and wasted labor trying FGMO. My fogger is on the shelf and going to stay there! Kurt said: Thanks for the exchange, As I have said on BEE-L many times " I hope that we can agree to disagree!" You have presented your side and I mine. All we can do. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:33:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: Unfortunately, Dr. Pedro did not enjoy the hard questioning he got from some members of this list, and chose to go elsewhere. If you can not stand the heat you should stay out of the kitchen! Allen said; I appreciate the rigour dealt to anyone making claims here, but I think we could be a bit more kind sometimes. I have used and tested FGMO . So has Mike T of the list! allen said: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/ABA2003.htm Come to Edmonton for Nov 3,4,5. I'll buy you a beer. The agenda at the ABA site is still not coming up Allen. How much longer are we going to have to wait for the agenda? I wish there was a kinder way of telling you! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:58:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Bower Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol Bob said: "The EPA will never approve thymol in cords on a hive while the honey supers are on"."Read the article by Dr. R. and that is exactly what he is saying"! I am unaware of him "recommending' that the cords be left on while supering for honey. I have given the web address for Dr. R's complete article so that you may check to see if I have misunderstood. http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/abjsept2003.htm Bob said: Perhaps we should all send Dr. Rodriguez a bill for the dead hives and wasted labor trying FGMO. If this the case, then I think we should also hold the manufacturers and distributers of Apistan and Checkmite responsible for colony loss as well as honey and wax contamination. Thanks again, Kurt Bower Julian, North Carolina P.S. If you are interested in selling your fogger, contact me off the list. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:15:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Apimondia 2003 in Ljubljana, Slovenia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Vicence > so I need group statistics. Just become a member for a while, > enjoy watching the photos and leave the group then :-) OK been there, done that, can you explain, the purpose of (or the idea behind) the large circular frames of foundation that are illustrated in several of the pictures? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 03:54:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glen van Niekerk Subject: Re: sunflower honey Comments: To: eavogt@MYHOME.NET Dear Elizabeth, Sunflowers are indeed a good source of pollen and nectar. Honey harvests may be influenced by e.g. Climate, soil type, cultivar, evening temperatures and adequate soil moisture. Black soil types (In South Africa) tend to yield more honey than sandy soils. There is also a nice build up of your bee colonies when they are working on sunflowers. My experience is that sunflower honey granulates quickly when temperatures drop. Do not leave your crop on the hive for too long. My hive placement is about 1 hive per 5 ha sunflowers during an average to good season. Hope this helps. Sincerely Glen van Niekerk South Africa :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:44:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Fantasyland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All > http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/ABA2003.htm Gives good info, thanks Allen http://www.albertabeekeepers.org/2003agenda.html This link was broken when I tried it, but I am assuming the information is the same. I am seriously considering visiting and would wish to travel on Saturday or Sunday before and after the event. What would/could a beekeeper do (beekeeping oriented) in the days before and the days after the conference? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:49:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Apimondia 2003 in Ljubljana, Slovenia quote: can you explain, the purpose of (or the idea behind) the large circular frames of foundation that are illustrated in several of the pictures? A gentleman has invented a system where the brood of the hive is raised in circular frames which are on an axle which is connected to a motor. In fact, he has trailers where all the hives inside are connected to one battery powered motor which slowly rotates the entire brood nest once over 24 hours. He believes this disrupts the varroa's reproductive cycle, with no harm to the bees. I confess that is all I know. There was so much to see, I couldn't spend much time on each exhibit. pb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:00:52 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Vincenc Petruna Subject: Re: Apimondia 2003 in Ljubljana, Slovenia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dave, > OK been there, done that, can you explain, the purpose of (or the idea > behind) the large circular frames of foundation that are illustrated in > several of the pictures? That was the most interesting for me, I was simply fascinated with this idea. Hungarian beekeeper and inventor Lajos Konya had circular frames in their hives. Frames are rotating half a circle/day due to eletric motor. The purpose of this rotation is to prevent swarming and to keep varroa within limits. Drames are rotating from may to august. Regards, Vincenc Petruna Domača stran: http://www2.arnes.si/~sscrnomelj/ Domača stran druątva: http://www2.arnes.si/~sscrnomelj/drustvo/ Debatna skupina: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cebelar/ Čebelja najfotografija sezone: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cebelar1/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:39:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kurt Bower wrote: If you are interested in selling your fogger, contact me off the list. Well,I think I will keep mine.I think it might work as a mosquito fogger!No ,actually I think there is potential as a carrier for thymol or maybe wintergreen oil in fogging (but not when supers are on).I think it was a Texas beekeeper(forgot the name) on Scientific/ag/beekeeping list who first suggested thymol in the mineral oil fogger.I did the mineral oil on too large a scale because it seemed so logical.The total lack of control has convinced me that it is not effective in areas where there is a real varroa problem. So I am only posting this to counterbalance the many claims of success I keep reading on the internet,especially from those who are using it on first year package hives.Well,Duh! Your package hive is going to be mite free because some package producer used an effective treatment.Allen,Forget kinder and gentler,let em have the truth with both barrrels.It will save some grief. ---Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:03:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kurt, I believe you and I are having an excellent discussion of the thymol/mineral oil issue. To those which have emailed me and think I am picking on Dr. R. and Kurt I say I am not and only trying to engage in discussion of the topic. Kurt said: I am unaware of him "recommending' that the cords be left on while supering for honey. Dr. R's has now went to telling the FGMO group that they need to fog every week for the method to work (was two weeks). The cords stay in all season. Honey supers of hobby beekeepers in our area are on from around May 15th to July 15th (shortest period of time). I have got yards which still have got supers on even now but should be pulled the first of next week. After two years of using FGMO Kurt you surely realize that not treating during the time period with honey supers on would cause FGMO to be even less effective . In the BEE-L archives are several posts between Dr. Rodriguez and myself. I have been following FGMO since the start. Consider Kurt that we are simply two beekeepers which have both used FGMO and are discussing our results. Yours were a success and mine a failure. Did I do something wrong (as FGMO is certainly not rocket sceince)? Bob said: Perhaps we should all send Dr. Rodriguez a bill for the dead hives and wasted labor trying FGMO. Kurt said: If this the case, then I think we should also hold the manufacturers and distributers of Apistan and Checkmite responsible for colony loss as well as honey and wax contamination. Because Dr. R. does not market a product he is safe. However the manufacturers of chemicals are always worried as the makers of Mitacur bought dead 150 hives reportedly from use of Mitacur and a lawsuit for wax contamination against Bayer might happen. Bayer (maker of Checkmite) patented the process for removal of coumaphos from wax and is wanting to sell the process to wax renderers I have been told. Kind of like making money on both ends . For those wanting to read the mineral oil tests done in Missouri under a S.A.R.E. grant. I have been unable to find the report on the net. If you do please post for all of BEE-L to read. The project leader was Matt Higdon - research entomologist by vocation certified master beekeeper by both the EAS and University of Nebr. Matt's help were Art Gelder- Then president of the Missouri State Beekeepers assn. and Ray Nabors- Ray teaches beekeeping and has given beekeeping talks in many states. Ray has also toured beekeeping around the world and did programs on those. Ray has written articles for bee magazines. The mineral oil trial done in Missouri was done exactly as recommended off the net by Dr. R. and is explained in its entirety on page 21 of the book " Missouri Sustainable Ag Demonstration Award Projects 1998-2000 " available I am told by calling the Missouri department of Ag - Sustainable Ag program in Jefferson City , Missouri 1-573-522-8616 1-573-751-5505 Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:19:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Normand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Choini=E8re?= Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am far from beeing Dr Rodriguez fan more than that I still have discomforts with the FGMO approach. 1- Scientific basis is weak. This method has not been scientifically demonstrated by independent searchers (as many other methods!). 2- There are so many vaiations in the method and this do not ad to its credibility. 3. Rodriguez looks more than a guru than a scientific person and he is also very reluctant to criticism... which makes him doubtfull. I tried FGMO ant it seems to work... and I am not alone. I know also that there are many successfull and unsuccessfull attempts. My opinion is still to be established. Now let's talk about thymol. Rodriguez is very well aware of the dangers of thymol:..." thymol in high doses is toxic to honey bees and may cause deaths of larvae and queen". Some seem to think that he is unconscious. This is not the case. On the other hand, it is not clear that he does or doesn't recommend the usage of thymol all year around. One thing for sure is that his "receipe" has much less thymol in it compared to commercial products. May be that concentration would be acceptable year round. May be. Many refer to USDA and governing bodies. I am from Canada and what I can see, what seems as clear to me is that USA and Canada ar far from being ahead on beekeeping especially at the government level. Decisions on approval of medications or chemicals as Oxalic acid takes years. We can't rely on decisions taken that way and so unprogressive. All our bees will be dead if we follow the government!!! So being a little more open minded is needed. As a matter of fact, untill now, progress on non chemical products, never came from North American governmental sources but from Europe (Swiss) and from individuals like Rodriguez who do it on trial and error basis. One other thing which is also sure is that Rodriguez, contrary to what someone opposed to him said, doesn't suggest the addition of thymol to oil but to cords only. Some people in the list seems to me to be over reacting and seem to be "allergic" to Dr Rodriguez. They don't seem to even read what he actually writes on the subject. I'vee asked elsewhere if someone ever had scientific data on oxalic acid strips. No one was able to give me an answer on this. Nobody knows how it works, nobody knows what is in the strips, in what proportion, nobody knows if this has been tested by independent people. But I also never read any criticism on that method. I don't mean that it is not effective or wrong or anything else. But we have to be honest and objective in our criticism. By the way, I also never read anywhere why oxalic acid could not be used all year around. Everyone is saying that it should never be used during the honey flow. Why? There is not a single study on that. There are some on formic acid and thymol but nothing on oxalic acid. It seems that we are "extendig" those conclusions on oxalic acid... which should not be done. There is a single study on the oxalic acid remains in the wax the spring following a fall application. period and the result of that study is that oxalic acid levels are normal. That is all what we have on this. Nothing on continuous usage of oxalic acid whatever the method of application is concerned So let's be carefull on our reactions. I really think that we would all profit of a little more open mind. This is how things will get improving. Normand Choiničre Normand Choiničre, VE2QNC Région de Mont-Tremblant, St-Faustin-Lac Carré, Québec, Canada. __________________________________________________ normand.choiniere@consultus.qc.ca http://consultus.qc.ca/choiniere http://valdurn.com http://eurodogs.org http://consultus.qc.ca/valmiel __________________________________________________ Besoin de traduction? Need a translation ? http://babelfish.altavista.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:13:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: The ABA site is still not coming up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The agenda at the ABA site is still not coming up Allen. How much > longer are we going to have to wait for the agenda? It depends how long you wait before you refresh the page or empty your cache, or how long it takes for the proxy server you may be using takes to refresh its cache. The pages were updated as of 4 PM Wed MDST, well before my announcement, so perhaps there is a time warp between us? > I wish there was a kinder way of telling you! Now you have an example. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:36:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Fantasyland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This link was broken when I tried it, but I am assuming the > information is the same. Yes. Exactly the same. > What would/could a beekeeper do (beekeeping oriented) in the days > before and the days after the conference? Good question. There are quite a number of highly advanced large commercial beekeeping operations within a half-hour's drive from Edmonton, and the owners are usually happy to entertain visitors, and give a tour. That is not too hard to arrange. Weather turns cold around the beginning of November, so hives are wrapped or stored in indoor wintering facilities, and there is no outdoor bee work underway. I don't think anything has been arranged at this point, but maybe something will, if there is demand. I personally live three hours from Edmonton and haven't decided, at this point, when to arrive in Edmonton. My wife hasn't told me yet. Since I'm retired from the bee business, and not involved in the ABA, if I went early, it would likely be to spend time at the Mall or hook up with the beekeepers who will undoubtedly be lounging around the hotel while their wives shop. Personally, when I go to a distant meeting, I usually plan to stay a few extra days, in case I make new friends or meet old friends at the meeting and we spontaneously decide on doing something after the event. These things are easier to arrange at the meeting than in advance. Usually, it is simply a matter of asking new acquaintances if they mind having a visit. If enough BEE-L people decided to attend, maybe a group activity could be planned. At any rate, if nothing comes up, the Mall can keep anyone entertained for a week without ever stepping outdoors. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:45:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20030918091005.035b5e30@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Normand ,you make some good points,especially about being objective in our trials of various treatments.I believe I was objective so will say no more... You are correct that the USA doesnt seem to accept European and Canadian research results.This seems petty to me as we are lagging behind and hives are dying.Unfortunately, the USA has bigger fish to fry and mite control isnt high on the govt list of priorities. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:24:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20030918091005.035b5e30@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Normand Choiničre wrote: > I'vee asked elsewhere if someone ever had scientific data on oxalic acid > strips. No one was able to give me an answer on this. Nobody knows how it > works, nobody knows what is in the strips, in what proportion, nobody knows > if this has been tested by independent people. But I also never read any > criticism on that method. I don't mean that it is not effective or wrong > or anything else. But we have to be honest and objective in our criticism. There is a wealth of info on Oxalic Acid including scientific studies comparing application methods. I have not read anything on strips and was not successful with a google search. Could you provide some information on the strips? Also, thanks for those who corrected me on the thymol not in the fogger but in the cord. Assumed incorrectly and apologize. Why use Thymol with FGMO? FGMO is supposed to work fine on its own so it obviously does not need anything else. If you are going to use Thymol, why use FGMO when Thymol requires less labor, and is backed by independent studies that show it is effective? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:54:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Hurricane Isadore MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Even as I write, Hurricane Isadore is making landfall on the outer banks of North Carolina, between Morehead City and Cape Hatteras. The weather station is still reporting from Morehead City, and you can observe a dramatic radar movie loop at: http://weather.noaa.gov/radar/loop/DS.p20-r/si.krax.shtml (as long as the station stays online). The storm is going to follow roughly the same path as Hurricane Hazel in 1954, which was a storm of about the same strength. If you remember, or have heard old timers talk about Hazel in your area, you need to be prepared for another. Hazel caught the Canadians completely off guard, and over 80 people drowned from the flash flooding in Ontario. If you live on low ground, be aware and have plans for your family's safety. Dave Green SC USA -Happy to dodge this bullet, but feeling for those who will not. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:57:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Whoops - make that Hurricane "Isabel" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Whoops - make that Hurricane "Isabel" Sorry, I'm caught in a time warp..... Dave Green SC USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:34:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Normand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Choini=E8re?= Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol In-Reply-To: <3F69CE39.8000601@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 11:24 03-09-18, you wrote: >Normand Choiničre wrote: >Could you provide some >information on the strips? Certainly not. I can't do better. There is nothing available according to me. We are completely blind on this. We don't know anything about the strips and what is in it. One thing for sure they are selling them and can't supply on the demand! I think that we surely should question FGMO but should we be doing that up to that point? Those people don't even make a penny out of it and do nothing less than their best!!! Sure we should never accept wishy washy things but I would surely think that the best to do would be to support those people and help them get the attention of the universities and research center instead of complaining about them... >Why use Thymol with FGMO? FGMO is supposed to work fine on its own so it >obviously does not need anything else. If you are going to use Thymol, >why use FGMO when Thymol requires less labor, and is backed by >independent studies that show it is effective? That is a legitimate question. As far as I know (and as it seems to be in my case) FGMO works progressively and it surely takes months to reach its maximum efficiency level. I would also doubt that it would reduce to zero the number of varroas. I think that the idea behind that thymol addition is basically to catalyze the process.... and also to create a dynamic between two partially or totally efficient methods. There is no doubt that adding thymol is a second insurance. The fact that thymol is added to something already efficient would also permit to reduce its quantity... as Rodriguez did it. In such conditions, may be it would be possible to allow thymol all year around. The idea is far from crazy! FGMO as modified could really be a big big progress. By the way, combining approaches has been done with success fighting against many human diseases like aids. I will probably try myself to add oxalic acid to the cords. Oxalic acid is naturally found in honey and bees wax. There is no smell problem etc. That method would also surely be safer for the bees, the honey and the wax than what we are doing with oxalic acid today: like the spray method, the dripping and the sublimation. If efficient it would probably be also a better solution than thymol. That would not be far from a very good solution also. As I said this is sometimes how progress are made. Lets be open to creative solutions. This is what is called evolution... Normand Choiničre :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:05:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: honey and healing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NEW ZEALAND EXPORT NEWS www.marketnewzealand.com/home/index/0,1455,SectionID%253D4557%2526Conten tID%253D7329,00.html A New Zealand team has developed a honey product utilizing UMF (unique manuka factor) manuka honey. This product has anti-bacterial properties that withstand gamma radiation sterilization. Tests are indicating growth inhibition of five types of bacteria. This appears to be a breakthrough in proving the healing properties of some types of honey. Could this same technology be applied to bee diseases such as American Foul Brood? Tom Shippensburg, Pa Service provided by eMypeople.net The Safe E-mail E-mail service without the internet Custom filtering, Anti virus protection, Contact helpdesk@emypeople.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:57:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: sunflower honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Glen van Niekerk" <" Sunflowers are indeed a good source of pollen and nectar." We can buy sunflower honey here only from French Farmers Markets that tour the UK. It is a bright yellow and opaque, a bit like lemon curd. Not really nice at all - compared to ordinary English floral honey from many sources. Are we getting the right stuff? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:58:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J" Subject: Thymol vs. Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings, I have been reading with interest the thymol discussion. Three items bother me somewhat. I am concerned about using thymol with FGMO all year long as reported in ABJ. We (in US) just got ourselves a new treatment and before the packages are open it is being suggested to use it in another fashion. I am not against research, but it is a little early to tell someone, here is another method for a chemical that just made it through the "emergency use" Section 18 government approval process. Let's use what is approved and FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS. If another method develops and is thoroughly tested, then by all means go ahead with it, but in due time. Bill Truesdell wrote: "In Maine, ApiLifeVar was approved under a Section 18 for Varroa control. The State Bee Inspector in our State newsletter reminded those who might use it that while Apistan and Cumophose carry a Caution label, Thymol carries a Danger label, which means it is highly toxic - only a few drops to a teaspoon will kill, while Caution takes over an ounce)." While I do not doubt Bill on reporting this, I cannot for the life of me understand the statement. Why would I want to use something that is way more toxic than Coumaphos? The LD50, when orally administered, for thymol is 980 mg/kg. 70 Kg (154 lb) is considered the average wt. of a human for tox testing (although that seems a low for the guys I hang around with, myself included). This is equivalent to eating about 2.5 ounces (68.6 grams) and closer to 1/4 lb for a 220 lb. person. Coumaphos has an oral LD50 of 13 mg/kg and a dermal LD50 reported to be 500 mg/kg. While these numbers reflect pure substances, they clearly illustrate that thymol is much less toxic than coumaphos. (It still should be handled carefully, using gloves.) IMHO, the use of a Danger statement is incorrect. In Europe it just barely makes the "Harmful" category. What am I missing here? If this is more toxic than coumaphos then you might as well shoot me in the shade cause I quit. Lastly I have to disagree with Bob. I kinda like the smell of the stuff. Comparing it to BeeGo, menthol and Checkmite, this is home baked bread. :-) Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, PA, USA + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:21:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Oxamite Strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is a wealth of info on Oxalic Acid including scientific studies > comparing application methods. I have not read anything on strips and > was not successful with a google search. Could you provide some > information on the strips? Here is a start... http://www.google.com/search?hl=&cat=&meta=&q=oxalic+acid+varroa+strips http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/photo.htm http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/ http://de.geocities.com/vaporizerklaus/Oxalic_Acid.htm http://de.geocities.com/vaporizerklaus/oxamite_engl_.htm allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:16:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill asked: >Could you provide some >information on the strips? Normand replied: Certainly not. I can't do better. There is nothing available according to me. We are completely blind on this. We don't know anything about the strips and what is in it. One thing for sure they are selling them and can't supply on the demand! I for one will NEVER use a product in my beehives without knowing the chemical and the hazards to the bees, comb and my health. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:59:40 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: sunflower honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robin, "Not really nice at all - compared to ordinary English floral honey from many sources" (comments on sunflower honey). You appear to be letting your parochial taste buds direct you to issue "I only like what is local" - a shame. Then ask if it is the right stuff? - Honey, stuff!!!! Hmm. So, on to the subjective observations and comments from me! Sunflowers in the right conditions and quantities produce a fine monofloral honey It is sought after by many individuals when sold locally, as well as by many national and international honey brokers. It has a characteristic taste: - when freshly extracted, it is sweet with a slightly resinous taste - the dried plants just before harvest give off a similar smell, truly translucent gold in colour (archetypal honey). Levels of production in major areas of Sunflower culture result in the honey crop selling for approx. the same/ or a slightly higher price when compared to Rape (Canola) honey. It remains liquid for several weeks before crystallizing in the comb (but does not cause problems as does Rape (Canola) at times). Crystallization tends to result in medium to coarse grain texture. It is a honey that responds well to treatment for creamed honey production. Beware if it is bottled straight from the settling tank - frosting will usually occur on the jar sides. Bees winter well on stores of this honey - it usually being prepared well in advance of final colony activity for winter. Wax cappings when rendered from this flow give "sunshine yellow" wax. During a flow - the super frames are full of "orange juice" - therefore plenty of room is required for nectar/ pre-honey storage. The best flows occur when the plants are growing in a slightly moist loan soil, daytime temps. around 25° - 28°C, followed by cool night. A flow will normally continue for 7 - 10 days. Usually there are several fields in a vicinity showing varied flower head stages - allowing a sunflower nectar flow to start around 3rd week of June and continue until last week in July. The pollen appears to be oily and difficult for the bees to organise into regular pollen loads - orange in colour. It is distributed randomly over the body of the forager - which when it attempts to clean itself - leaves areas of un-collected pollen on the dorsal area of the thorax. Large amounts are not stored - my observation when compared with Sweet Chestnut (Castanea. sp.). The flow invariably causes blockage in the brood box (note super supply!) - and results in a good removal of old worn our bees by the end of the flow, a fall in the size of the colony numbers. After the flow, the remaining bees organise the brood area, produce a well fed collection of young healthy bees between mid August and early Oct. for the winter period (Early Nov. till late March) - surrounded by fresh supplies. Whilst working the flower heads - foragers will move steadily from one floret to another - resulting in the position of its body moving from where the head is vertical upwards, through the horizontal and then vertical with head downwards. (Plants treated with certain pesticides appear to cause bees to loose the ability to move over the flower head in an organised fashion (or at least restrict this) - causing them to fall off, or fly away from the head to rebalance after which they attempt to continue foraging.) Unlike the abrupt end of the Rape flow - late summer flowers are still present after the Sunflower flow, hence the bees are not too touchy when having the supers removed - but sometimes this is definitely not the case. Bees appear to collect copious supplies of resinous material from the sunflowers and then lay down lots of sticky propolis - the bees collecting from behind the flower heads where sticky accumulations of material are found. Ideal for winter prep. but a pain during frame handling - If supers / frames are not clean every 2 years, they then become totally bound up in this material. The flow was traditionally the major crop of the year in Central, Western France (and other regions, I am sure). Producing between 15 kg to 50 kg finished honey per hive. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:13:38 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Predrag Cvetkovic Subject: Re: sunflower honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glen van Niekerk said: > Sunflowers are indeed a good source of pollen and nectar. Honey harvests > may be influenced by e.g. Climate, soil type, cultivar, evening > temperatures and adequate soil moisture. Black soil types (In South Africa) > tend to yield more honey than sandy soils. > There is also a nice build up of your bee colonies when they are working on > sunflowers. > > My experience is that sunflower honey granulates quickly when temperatures > drop. Hallo All I agree completely with Glen van Niekerk. Here, in Serbia, we have very good sunflower pasture in northern area. As chestnut honey (Castanea sativa), sunflower honey has a lot of pollen too, and maybe this is the reason of its increasing demand in our market. For example, from the third classe honey, chesnut honey became one of the most expensive honey sorts. Regarding hive placement, to pollinate sunflowers fields, experiance of our beekeepers is to place about 2 hives per hectar. As I know, average honey production is 20-50 kg per ha, is very dependent on sort. If we expect good honey production, the soil must be very fertile and without any weeds. regards Predrag Cvetkovic, Serbia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:54:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: sunflower honey "Glen van Niekerk" said: " Sunflowers are indeed a good source of pollen and nectar." Robin Dartington then asked: Are we getting the right stuff? Robin Read carefully - he said 'a good source of...' not 'a source of good...'! I have only tried (French) sunflower honey once, when a beekeeping colleague brought some back from a holiday. Several members of our Association tasted it and all agreed that the flavour was awful - sort of musty, rather like the smell of a chrysanthemum. The owner tried to give the jar away, but there were no takers. I do hope that no farmers around here start growing them! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:09:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Fact Sheet About Bee Stings On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 13:21:11 -0600, Allen Dick wrote: >I'm working on a page to hand to new employees, neighbours, and doctors, etc. so that they are not taken by surprise when they people to swell after having initially had very little reaction. I notice I've been getting lots of hits on this page, which is now at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/stings.htm, so I took a look at it and fixed a few minor things. I'd appreciate any constructive comments. allen My old Internode site is now gone. Please update your internode.net/honeybee/... bookmarks to honeybeeworld.com/... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:19:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "E.A. Vogt" Subject: Re: sunflower honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All --- Hmmmm ... I hope all in-the-know keep responding re: sunflower honey. From the negative comments, I'm now on the fence about attempting to produce such a product ! Sincerely, Elizabeth Vogt Vashon, WA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:25:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Fact Sheet About Bee Stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: I'd appreciate any constructive comments. Well done! I was amused at the following statement: Allen wrote: "Some beekeepers consider stings to be a huge joke,but stings should be taken with some seriousness. if at all possible" "if at all possible" meaning that there are times when its ok to laugh at a funny bee sting incident. I have seen a few funny incidents in which I had to bite my lip to keep from laughing. "with some seriousness" meaning not to laugh at the time but later when alone. I had a unusual stinging incident happen in the honey house today. I know what the problem is as I have seen the problem before. Problem : Myself and two helpers were working in the honey house. I was running the uncapper and a helper was putting frames in an extractor and another person was sorting out MT frames to speed up the process. I noticed a small hole in a super with bees around the hole and decided to move the super to another part of the honey house as none of us were wearing protection. My two helpers were women and women do not (from past experience) like getting stung. When I reached for the super about four bees flew out and stung me. I backed off for a minute and then picked up the super and put the super in another area of the honey house and about four other bees flew out stinging. For fun without reading further try to figure out why the stinging? Then read on . Answer: The queen had somehow moved above the queen excluder and had started her nest. I had a helper pulling supers yesterday and he had not noticed the brood and had put the super with the queen ,brood and guard bees on the truck. My helper yesterday was a good worker and said he would be back today but was a *no show*. I will miss him! The bees had been using the small hole as an entrance and were guarding the super as they would their hive. I have got a large screened exit to the outside on the honey house and a hive outside to catch the bees exiting the honey house. When I saw the small circle of bees around the hole I should have known what the problem was. I never told the girls or showed the girls my stings as help is hard enough to find for the honey house and even the thought of stinging makes the help nervous. I try to remove all bees from the honey house before extracting. When you bring in sealed brood alone with honey supers you get young bees emerging but they are very docile and can not even sting until three days old. Not the case today! I will remove the queen and brood tomorrow and install her in a nuc before the help arrives. The above is not news to longtime beekeepers but many on the list might find the above interesting and helpful. We were using fume boards to pull supers yesterday which is when you are most likely to bring in sealed brood in honey supers. My helper was getting tired at the last yard and was putting supers on the truck with quite a few bees in the boxes. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:37:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: I guess I've seen it all MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Well, I guess I've seen it all. While shopping at our large, Arkansas-based retailer's establishment in our town, I always drift through the honey section, mostly comparing their honey prices to mine and to see what size seems to be selling. I came across "HoneyTree's Sugar Free Imitation Honey." I about dropped my dentures! Why do we need this stuff? It's made from Maltitol syrup, packed by Honeytree, Inc of Onsted, MI. It was priced at $2.12 for a 12 oz. bottle. Out of curiosity, I purchased a bottle. In the long run, this only helps their marketing numbers, but I had to find out what it is. IMHO it doesn't taste anything like honey, not even that stuff they import from other countries. It's still 50 calories per tablespoon, so even advertised as "sugar free," it's still loaded with calories. Is maltitol sryup really better than sugar/corn syrup? With all respect to diabetics, whom I guess can take this stuff, why do we need this stuff and call it "imitation honey?" Why not call it what it is, maltitol syrup? Grant --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:25:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Fact Sheet About Bee Stings Hi Allen: Thanks for providing a link to the newer updated method of removing stings. It seems many long-time beekeepers still don't realize it does not matter how a sting is taken out. *Pulling it out is OK.* Speed is more important than reaching into your wallet for a credit card to scrape off the stinger. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:54:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Fact Sheet About Bee Stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bob Harrison" " I try to remove all bees from > the honey house before extracting." Bob's descriptions of working conditions in his honey house always sound absolutely Dickensian. I could not in honesty recommend beekeping as a hobby for retirement (as I do) if it was inevitable that you had to suffer in this way. IMHO hthe future of beekeeping in adanced societies lies in recruiting far more older beekeepers at the hobby/sideliner level, so the issue of working in clean hygienic safe environments is important . Why does it not work to just stack supers initially in a lobby to the honey room so that all bees, once full, fly to a one-way valve in a window before the supers are taken thru? I realise the odd bx with a queen will always be a risk, but this normally shows up in the apiary as soon as the super is lifted off the clearer board. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:03:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Normand Choiničre" " As far as I know (and as it seems to be in > my case) FGMO works progressively and it surely takes months to reach its > maximum efficiency level. I would also doubt that it would reduce to zero > the number of varroas." Just for information (I have absolutely no intention of ever oilingg up the inside of my hives, even as an experiment) could anyone describe how combs and bees look that are fogged with oil weekly for months at a time? A worker presumably gets oiled up 3 times while a house bee, and maybe or maybe not again when a forager - all larvae will get oil inside their cells (and mixed with their larval food) before being sealed (is this the bit that kills varooa - or kills the larvae as theit digestions are geared to watery nectar not oil? ) - but the queen will get oiled say 100 times in her lifetime. Does she enjoy it - or turn into a grease ball? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:44:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Bower Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol To all: Seems as if I have helped to drag out a thread that is probably too long already. I will end my contribution with these thoughts. 1. To those that tried and failed with FGMO, I am sorry for your losses. I believe that anytime you try something new you have to be aware that those possibilities exist. I would do no less with a "proven method" offered to me by a so called credible source. 2. I believe in personal resonsibliity and common sense. For those that have cried foul, I can only say shame on you for not monitoring your hives better. You have chosen to keep bees, no one is forcing you to do so. Along with this comes some responsibility on your part if things are not going as they should. THis is the very resaon I have not put Checkmite in my hives. Everyone has ther limitations. 3. If FGMO is only effective for 2 years as Bob has suggested, then so be it. I will have allowed my bees some relief from toxic chemicals as well as helped to reduce the varroa's resistance to these chemicals. All the better for me in the long run. 4. The reason I joined this thread was because I felt that someone needed to represent those who are having success. Making blanket statements that "FGMO doesnt work" is irresponsible and untrue. It is no different than if I started a thread saying that FGMO will work for everyone. Beekeeping is sometimes more of an art than a science. What works for one does not work for all. I will continue to use FGMO and enjoy the success that I have had. If things change I will let you know. Kurt Bower Julian, North Carolina :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:29:29 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Fact Sheet About Bee Stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Relating to Bob's experience in the "honey house" and Robin's comments suggesting that conditions "sound absolutely Dickensian". Before moving to France and setting up as a commercial beekeeper - my experience was limited to a few hives and a wandering extractor! I wandered in and out of my hives with much care and at a speed that allowed each to be treated like 5 star hotels. At extraction time - each frame was carefully removed, dusted and royally brought into the kitchen and dealt with. Supers were wrapped and stored as if they were the most valuable thing I owned. I decry none of the above, nor beekeepers still progressing in such a manner - BUT, Move onto hundreds of colonies and so much changes. Care is still maintained but such things as removing all bees etc. etc. are no longer top priority. Organisation, safety in the work place, hygiene, speed and ability to have rentable procedures are paramount. Buildings holding hundreds of supers are places were bees collect - if only 2 bees are brought home per super - that results in 200 bees in a building! Building costs enter into the equation - hot rooms need to insulated - therefore windows are not advised. Robin, if you have seen a commercial regime in action - you know you comments are not really valid. If you have not seen, then try and visit one, take part, starting from passing a day clearing, carting supers, stacking, extracting, replacing and preparing for the next one. Few hobby beekeepers wish this style of life, whilst few commercial guys want to return to the hobby level. The two are worlds apart in skills, techniques and aspirations. When I talk to individuals in Britain about my operation in France - they find it difficult to equate with what they do. Many actions are totally against what they consider "proper". A few weeks on the active front - and those who have stayed to "help" change their mind. Go and talk over a beer with somebody who runs 1000 colonies - then think about how you would do it - and still make a living from the sweet nectar. Best regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:38:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Normand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Choini=E8re?= Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol In-Reply-To: <005801c37e8e$e0579d80$ba85bc3e@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 04:03 03-09-19, you wrote: > "Normand Choiničre" " As far as I know (and as it seems to be in > > my case) FGMO works progressively and it surely takes months to reach its > > maximum efficiency level. I would also doubt that it would reduce to zero > > the number of varroas." > >Just for information could anyone describe how combs >and bees look that are fogged with oil weekly for months at a time? >A worker presumably gets oiled up 3 times while a house bee, and maybe or >maybe not again when a forager - all larvae will get oil inside their cells >(and mixed with their larval food) before being sealed (is this the bit that >kills varooa - or kills the larvae as theit digestions are geared to watery >nectar not oil? ) - but the queen will get oiled say 100 times in her >lifetime. Does she enjoy it - or turn into a grease ball? You are dreaming! ;-))) This is absolutely NOT what is happening. There is no visible trace of oil, combs are exactly normal, nothing is oily, it doesn't smell oil, there is no visible oil in the honey also. You have to understand that this is not an oil bath! Don't forget that FGMO means food grade mineral oil. This is what you are eating yourself... as an ingredient of commercial foods! You are not eating dark grease as far as I know! ;-)))) Oil is fogged into particles of 15 microns. This is the size that is efficient on mites and has no effects on bees. Take a few minutes and read on FGMO. You are building up a story as you see it! Normand Choiničre :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:59:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: varroa control basics (was Thymol ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kurt said: I will end my contribution with these thoughts. Kurt said: 3. If FGMO is only effective for 2 years as Bob has suggested, What I said was that two years is the accepted time that a hive left untreated will live untreated before the hive dies from varroa infestation. Obviously there are exceptions in both directions. Most hives started from packages will survive the first winter if the package did not arrive infested with varroa and there is not a reinfestation problem occuring. When you use any IPM method such as drone brood removal, FGMO or screened bottom boards you knock back the varroa population thus extending the time the hive can survive . 100% elimination of varroa from the hive is not possible we have been told by researchers. As time goes on each year the varroa mite load continues to rise as a higher mite load starts the spring with methods which provide little control and then you find yourself with a hive at varroa load threshold. Then control with a IPM method which provides little control will not solve the varroa problem. Think about what I have said Kurt as I am trying to share what I have learned about varroa and others on the list already know. Look forward to your next post! Your friend, Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:57:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Bee "language"? -- Part 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Continued, part 2. Some contributors during this recent exchange questioned whether we had really encountered censorship on this issue (after all, scientists are objective and would welcome divergent views, right?). I'll not go into that matter, but we have extensive documentation that such blockage does occur in science. As examples, one can read: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/aoac.htm and: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/EXC.htm and: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/latimes.htm The material on those web sites reveals the very human nature of science in action. You can also open any book written by bee language advocates this last couple of decades and find extremely little (or no) mention of our experimental results, dating all the way back to the 1960s. Last Sunday Dave Cushman posted this statement: "It is up to you what you accept and what you ignore, but if you wish to have your point of view recognized by others, you must encompass all aspects of a behavior whether you personally believe they are irrelevant or not, if you leave out any element you are not telling the whole story." Correct. Bee language advocates have done the bee community a great disservice this past three decades by providing only evidence that bolsters one side in the controversy. Those who have read our book and papers know that we have not hesitated to provide evidence that meshes with the language hypothesis -- while still not hesitating to critique that evidence. For instance, the following paper (1991 in the American Zoologist) shows how evidence gathered by both sides can be reconciled: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/az1991.htm You should all realize that Columbia University Press would not have published our 1990 book without thorough review by qualified scholars. Neither would we have been invited to write the 1991 paper for the American Zoologist nor get the 2002 paper into print in the Journal of Insect Behavior if we didn't have a case. Advent of the Internet broke the log jam in this matter. Barry Birkey helped immeasurable by forming "Point of View" and providing access to most of our publications that language advocates had ignored so long. I provided therein a chronology of the bee language controversy from our point of view: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/readme.htm By going to that chronology and clicking on various URLs, anyone can read the original publications, including von Frisch's 1937 paper and excerpts from his 1943 paper (in English -- original in German). -- To be continued in the next posting -- -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:06:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: sunflower honey In-Reply-To: <01c37e4c$0f808100$508cfa43@evlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit E.A. Vogt wrote: > Hi All --- > > Hmmmm ... I hope all in-the-know keep responding re: sunflower honey. From > the negative comments, I'm now on the fence about attempting to produce such > a product ! There are many honeys that "taste awful" but have a following. It all depends on who is buying. Buckwheat honey comes to mind. I think it is a horrible tasking honey but it sells well in New York and has a good solid market. I brought some Hawaiian honey home, which sold at a premium, that all in our local beekeepers club thought was foul. At shows, where our local beekeepers sell honey, I like to help. I will let someone taste two different honeys and tell them after they taste them which one they will like best. If they are young, they invariably like summer or light honeys. If older, I ask if they use honey at all. If they do they invariable like fall or dark honeys. If not, then it is often a toss-up. You still might want to try it. You will probably not get pure sunflower honey but a nice mix which may surprise you. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:32:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Fact Sheet About Bee Stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin said: so the issue of working in clean hygienic safe environments is important . My honey house is very clean & hygienic. The health department called yesterday saying it was about time for an inspection. My honey house is very safe as I do not use steam or knives to uncap with. Robin: Why does it not work to just stack supers initially in a lobby to the honey room so that all bees, once full, fly to a one-way valve in a window before the supers are taken thru? Thats exactly the way the process works but bees covering brood or with a queen will not fly to the exit to the outside hive. Robin said: be a risk, but this normally shows up in the apiary as soon as the super is lifted off the clearer board. Clearer boards are to slow and involve two trips to the yards. When we use a bee blower we do not bring in sealed brood but with fume boards help will not always notice the brood. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:36:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oxamite Strips In-Reply-To: <001501c37e09$659a6ad0$44b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: >>There is a wealth of info on Oxalic Acid including scientific studies >>comparing application methods. I have not read anything on strips and >>was not successful with a google search. Could you provide some >>information on the strips? > > Here is a start... > http://www.google.com/search?hl=&cat=&meta=&q=oxalic+acid+varroa+strips > http:...... Thanks Allen. That was the same result I got, but when I saw it was the vaporizer, looked no further since I had been to their site before and did not realize they added the strips. The rest of the hits were oxalic acid and other strips. They look like some combo of oxalic acid, sugar (?) and a binding agent, like a cloth strip. Interesting that they are reusable and cost about $1 US per strip. I am sure someone will try to duplicate them at home, but Oxalic Acid is tricky in the range of concentrations where it is effective. So it can do harm or be ineffective, depending on the concentration. The original question that generated this thread was if there was any data on them. Is there? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:03:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Normand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Choini=E8re?= Subject: Re: varroa control basics (was Thymol ) In-Reply-To: <001501c37e9d$2bfa6020$05a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 06:59 03-09-19, you wrote: >When you use any IPM method such as drone brood removal, FGMO or screened >bottom boards you knock back the varroa population thus extending the time >the hive can survive . 100% elimination of varroa from the hive is not >possible we have been told by researchers. > >As time goes on each year the varroa mite load continues to rise as a higher >mite load starts the spring with methods which provide little control and >then you find yourself with a hive at varroa load threshold. That is simply not true and happens only when there is poor management. For sure 100% elimination is a big goal but 100% is not needed in order to have an efficient control. Most IPM methods, especially combined methods, will make the control efficient on indefinite periods and levels of infestation can be kept very low all year round. This is the case of thousands of hives in Switzerland and elsewhere in the world. One thing is for sure: there has been no non bio method that has been efficient on a long period.... Normand Choiničre :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:04:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: fgmo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kurt Bower wrote: > To all: > Seems as if I have helped to drag out a thread that is probably too long > already. Well,not really.This does need to be brought up from time to time so that others can be made aware that fgmo like other unproven treatments isnt a sure thing and the possibility for loss exists.There are plenty of people promoting it ,so I just like to tell the other side.Thanks for posting your results! ---Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:12:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Bee "language"? In-Reply-To: <001f01c37c61$1f947200$2eb85ad1@Pegasus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Normally exchanges about bee "language" last only a week or so, but this latest exchange on BEE-L has persisted considerably longer. When controversy erupts in science or medicine, evidence becomes the first casualty (as someone once wrote). "Is it conceivable that honey bees do not have a language?" I often ask that question of a person who is apparently not open to consideration of evidence in the issue. A prompt, "No, that is not conceivable" answer lets me know that further conversation would be fruitless. A long hesitation or an avoidance of the question usually means that the person knows they should say yes but can't bring themselves to do so. Again, why continue the conversation? I always hope for a prompt "Yes" answer, because then I will be able to direct that person to evidence at variance with the language hypothesis, such as that evidence published by von Frisch in the late 1930s and early 1940s -- evidence ignored by bee language proponents this past several decades. The same holds true for the hard evidence have published. Another dead give away for me: when people use terms such as THE language of bees or THEIR language. Surely such people would not be open to consideration of evidence at variance with their belief system. My 2002 paper ("The Elusive Honey Bee Dance 'Language' Hypothesis" -- Journal of Insect Behavior) -- http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/jib2002.htm, didn't require one and a half years but TWO and a half years of negotiation. Now, that is a paper that has no figures, no tables, and no statistical analysis. It is just a Forum paper with a statement of position. Scientists pride themselves on their objectivity and "open minds." Why, then, are they so afraid to allow publication of a position paper? Some during this recent exchange inferred that my co-workers were on the fringe in this matter. Those wishing to keep dogma intact often attempt to marginalize those who have a different position. Anyone familiar with me and with my contributions knows better. I come from a long line of beekeepers and have good academic credentials. Those interested can access: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm -- To be continued in the next posting -- Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:41:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks: “Beekeeping is sometimes more of an art than a science. What works for one does not work for all.” Kurt: I assume the word “art” here means in the sense of artisan, a technician worth his salt. Someone whose feet are firmly grounded in common sense as you profess, one could have avoided using such abstract blurry word as “art” when in fact you meant “techniques” or “skills,” for the word “art” is just too broad to be applied in beekeeping. Thrown in like that, the “art” sounds like another voodoo jargon. People often use that term to mean creating something ex nihilo [out of nothing], a classical definition, just as we don’t go to Wal-Mart to buy “art.” Rather, we go there to buy mass-produced factory fart. A while back another member hectored in with a “correct answer” only to be admonished by hawkish Jim. We need clarity in our postings. As soon as someone says beekeeping is an art, he/she is taking the skills and techniques out of science and worse, out of common sense. That hit and miss efficacy of FGMO makes perfect sense since it was the artists, not savvy beekeepers, who applied the snake oil in an “artsy” way. Sure, it would have worked in all cases if the artists had used the correct moonshine. Yoon Go in fear when someone insists that he/she be called Dr. this or Dr. that as in a Chevy Chase’s movie. I reject such inferiority complex. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:09:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: fgmo In-Reply-To: <200309191408.h8JE8C8w012285@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Tooley wrote: > Well,not really.This does need to be brought up from time to time so that > others can be made aware that fgmo like other unproven treatments isnt a > sure thing and the possibility for loss exists. FGMO was tested as a spray many years ago and found to be less effective than other sprays, such as lactic acid, in dropping Varroa. In addition it killed more bees. I do not know of any long term independent scientific study that has shown FGMO to be an effective Varroa control. I stress independent scientific. One problem is it keeps changing. When it is shown to have problems, the system is modified- as with screened bottom boards and now Thymol. FGMO, like many other marginal Varroa controls, does work to a certain effectiveness. The problem is, especially from a commercial and labor (read cost) point of view, it is ineffective compared to other approaches, even other "bio" methods. It also suffers from not being consistent in its results, as is evidenced by many dropping out because of failure. There appears to be a level of Varroa infestation that can trigger many other bad things in a hive. Most commercial controls are in the high 90%. FGMO is not. So, with FGMO, you are trying to maintain a moderate mite level and hoping for the best. If no other triggers come into play, you can get by. If not, the colony dies. Apistan and Cumophose are condemned because of their ineffectiveness with resistant Varroa, because their ability to control varroa drops down into the range of many bio controls that have to be continually applied. In essence, you are betting the farm on a marginal treatment when there are countless easier and more effective controls available. Plus most of them have gone through serious independent scientific evaluation and passed. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:09:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: RE; [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, all. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE HONEY BEE “DANCE LANGUAGE” HYPOTHESIS? Ruth Rosin American Bee Journal (1999) 139(9): 659 The well known honey bee “dance language” controversy is of considerable importance to beekeepers, because the resolution of this controversy will determine in which direction honey bee research will go in the attempts to help beekeepers increase the yield of honey they can obtain from their colonies. I shall provide here a very brief list of some of the most devastating arguments against the “dance language” hypothesis. Von Frisch justifiably concluded in the early 20s that honey bee recruits use odor alone and no information about the location of any food. In order to fit his early 1920s results within his later “dance language” hypothesis, it is necessary to accept that recruits use “dance language” information with distance errors of up to 900&, which is simply incredible. The low upwind zig-zag through which recruits invariably arrive at stations (man-made sites with the foragers’ food-odor) fully fits the expectations from use of odor alone and grossly contradicts the expectations from use of “dance language’ information. “Dance language” supporters have desperately attempted to fit this typical manner of arrival within the “dance language” hypothesis, to no avail. There was even an attempt to suggest that this typical manner of arrival may not exist at all, after v. Frisch had regularly used this typical manner of arrival as a criterion to count all new-arrivals at all his test stations. “Dance language” supporters never did, nor could submit a valid claim for use of “dance language” information. This is so, because in order to substantiate a claim for use of “dance language” information vs. use of odor alone, it is necessary to first determine the expectations from both possibilities. “Dance language” supporters, however, err in their expectations from both use of odor alone and use of “dance language’ information; which makes their claims doubly impossible. Honey bees cannot have a “dance language” which utilizes information from foragers’ dances, because they must perform arithmetic calculations in order to obtain the information at the level of accuracy they show in experiments, and even in order to obtain any distance and direction information at all. Insects, however, cannot perform arithmetic calculations, or even count in the first place. The presumed “dance language” could not evolve at all, because users of odor alone turn out to be even much more efficient than presumed users of “dance language” information, in terms of the average number of dances performed per new-arrival. What is wrong with the “dance language” hypothesis? Everything! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note added on Sept. 19, 2003. The first sentence in item no. 2 is based on Wenner’s work. All the rest is based on my own work. I had to retype the article by hand for the benefit of Bee-L readers, so I hope it will be posted. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:41:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: varroa control basics (was Thymol ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: >When you use any IPM method such as drone brood removal, FGMO or screened >bottom boards you knock back the varroa population thus extending the time >the hive can survive . 100% elimination of varroa from the hive is not >possible we have been told by researchers. > >As time goes on each year the varroa mite load continues to rise as a higher >mite load starts the spring with methods which provide little control and >then you find yourself with a hive at varroa load threshold. Normand said: That is simply not true and happens only when there is poor management. I will humor you and let you explain *in your opinion* why any part of the above is not beekeeping research gospel. The above happens even with excellent management! The above is simply the result me sitting through countless hours of seminars by the worlds best researchers and my personal experience. As I said the above is simple basics. I also do advanced varroa control ! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:49:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Normand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Choini=E8re?= Subject: Re: fgmo In-Reply-To: <3F6B1C2F.4040405@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 11:09 03-09-19, you wrote: >FGMO was tested as a spray many years ago and found to be less effective >than other sprays Can you refer us to a Web site on this? I really never seen serious on that. >One problem is it keeps changing. When >it is shown to have problems, the system is modified- as with screened >bottom boards and now Thymol. One can see this as instability other as an adaptive and evolutive method? ;-)) >FGMO, like many other marginal Varroa controls, does work to a certain >effectiveness. The problem is, especially from a commercial and labor >(read cost) point of view, it is ineffective compared to other >approaches, even other "bio" methods. I've read very different opinions from commercial operations. How did you got those infos? FGMO without cords is really a very low cost method. I've read opinions as I said that say it is efficient but nothing near a scientific demonstration, I must admit. But there are many methods that never had been demonstrated. What you are reporting is more like the report on the guy who saw the guy who saw the bear! Globally speaking you base your opinion on opinions (more or less like me!) but we both do not have any solid basis on either side of the question! Most commercial controls are in the high >90%. FGMO is not. Nobody can say that. There never has been testing done a long term and controlled basis on FGMO. It could be true or false. And even if it was 80% that could be an interesting part of a multi weapon strategy. Don't forget that it has great advantages as it can be applied continuously. As I previously said, this is a complex question and I think that you try to make it black or white and more simple... that it is. We should be more open minded as solutions to a complex problem are most of the time not so simple. > Apistan and Cumophose are >condemned because of their ineffectiveness with resistant Varroa, >because their ability to control varroa drops down into the range of >many bio controls that have to be continually applied. That question of resistance is one aspect of it. There are more fundamental reasons. The main reason is probably that many people in society want bio products. They no longer want to eat non natural chemicals... Personally I think that this is going to be prevailing in our society and especially as honey is concerned. Even if not certified there are many people involved in agriculture that have already eliminated or greatly reduced their usage of non natural chemicals. People's opinions are evolving... Normand Choiničre :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:35:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Bee "language"? -- Part 3 In-Reply-To: <008601c37ab4$a8267360$0a00000a@DaveCushman> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Continued, part 3. With all the evidence at variance with the language hypothesis finally now all readily available, why do language advocates continue to ignore the extensive body of that negative evidence? First, perhaps, is that fact that many researchers have "put all their eggs in one basket" and have based their research career on the "truth" of bee language. Partly it's human nature, especially with something so exotic as the language hypothesis. The exotic sells in science, just as with the general public. If someone says they have "proved" that dolphins have a language, acceptance comes quickly. Evidence counter to that conclusion will hardly receive a similar reception. Partly it's bias -- a condition prevalent in all belief systems. When I start a lecture to a large audience and want to illustrate the pervasive nature of bias, I ask, "What percentage of you are average or below average drivers?" Invariably, only a few hands go up. I remain silent for a short while, and then the audience breaks out in laughter. Point made! The bee language hypothesis has now been with us for decades, inculcated into the minds of people of all ages as "fact," "proven," or "discovered" -- but not presented as hypothesis (it seems it never was). That severe bias has colored quite a few postings on the subject this past couple of weeks. For instance, one normally very astute contributor to this list, who just published a superb article on sweeteners in BEE CULTURE, bemoaned the fact that chefs in this country have a consensus that sugar is just as good in recipes as honey. At the same time, he fell back and apparently accepts the consensus of bee language advocates during the recent debate, writing: "Our currency is evidence. I am convinced by the evidence at hand. So is most of the rest of the scientific community." From my vantage point that last short sentence is not true (maybe for a certain clique of bee researchers but not for the whole scientific community), as one can witness by accessing: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/comments.htm Although that set of unsolicited comments does not contain names, I can furnish a more complete list to anyone (by attachment along with names) who so desires. We have received, and continue to receive, scores of such comments. "Our currency is evidence." We have often heard the phrase, "overwhelming evidence," in support of the language hypothesis. In science one does not stack up pro and con papers and see which stack weighs more. Instead, a set of negative evidence counts far more than supportive evidence. Evidence from double controlled experiments and strong inference experiments also carries far more weight than less rigorous experiments (the type of experiment usually done by supporters of the dance language hypothesis). Jim Fischer called for evidence in support of the odor-search hypothesis (von Frisch's original belief). Chapter 9 of our 1990 book has evidence from double controlled experiments, in which searching recruits had paid no attention to distance and direction information in the dances of successful foragers. Chapter 10 has evidence from strong inference experiments, where searching bees totally ignored distance and direction information and ended up instead at a feeding station that had odor of the previous day. One can read the original Science paper (as summarized in our chapter 10) at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/sci1969 The physicist John Platt told me he considered our "crucial" experiment one of the finest examples of a strong inference experiment that he had ever seen. I also provided a summary of the odor-search hypothesis (as mentioned in the last posting) at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/az1991.htm Unlike in physics, in much of biology the anonymous referee system virtually guarantees that those who come up against "consensus" (read "dogma") will not get a fair hearing in the scientific community, either in manuscript publication or in grant support for research. Authors of manuscripts often submit a list of "favorable" referees, sometimes at the editor's request. In terms of penalty, I had to forgo summer salary income from grants for decades (many tens of thousands of dollars) due to my insistence that (as found later) von Frisch had the right idea in the first place. That's all right, though, I can live with my conscience. It strikes me that intellectual honesty requires that one not reject the odor-search hypothesis because of a "consensus" in favor of the language hypothesis, at least not without having studied the contrary evidence in our many publications. With our papers now readily available on the Internet (many thanks to Barry Birkey), everyone has an opportunity to study the evidence withheld so long by the bee research community. And one can easily forward this current set of three presentations to friends and colleagues, something not possible before the Internet. Finally, as published already, in science a valid hypothesis should lead to practical application. However, we have now had the dance language hypothesis for more than a half century, but beekeepers have yet to receive practical benefit -- despite the millions spent in attempts to prove that "language" exists, after all. I am reminded of the adage: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!" [ I will be in Maryland this next two weeks on a bee project and will not be able to respond promptly to any input. ] With all best wishes. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:52:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: fgmo In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20030919122550.029f8370@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Normand Choiničre wrote: The main reason is probably that many people in society want bio > products. They no longer want to eat non natural chemicals... Personally I > think that this is going to be prevailing in our society and especially as > honey is concerned. I think that is the real appeal for using fgmo and 'soft chemicals' like formic and oxalic.That was my sole motivation for trying fgmo.I wish it had been effective.We all want to get away from residues even if they are only parts per billion.I think we are going to get there soon as the mites continue to be selected for resistance to miticides.I also think honey production is going to get more labor intensive and expensive.I just hope people are willing to pay for the increased costs. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:03:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > "Beekeeping is sometimes more of an art than a science. What works for one > does not work for all." > > Kurt: > And Yoon said: > I assume the word "art" here means in the sense of artisan, a technician > worth his salt. Someone whose feet are firmly grounded in common sense as > you profess, one could have avoided using such abstract blurry word > as "art" when in fact you meant "techniques" or "skills," for the > word "art" is just too broad to be applied in beekeeping.... Gee whiz, I understood what he meant. It was pointed out in an earlier thread that one cannot use simplistic formulae to know when/when not to treat for varroa, given the massive variables involved in beekeeping. Enter "experience", "judgement", "common sense", "horse sense", et al (aka "Art"). The world is teeming with things, behaviors, skills, methods, etc, that are difficult to quantify, and the human brain happens to be the very best tool on the planet to parse such data, though I think the process is often so transparent we don't realize the true depth of such analyses. Have you ever asked a gifted, self-taught musician how they do what they do? The answer is invariably something like, "Gee, I dunno...", while they look down at their hands in wonder. Art. My humble apologies for the quasi-philosophical ramblings.. Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:43:21 -0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pedro Rodriguez Subject: (FGMO-Thymol use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello folks. I did belong to Bee-L for a long time but decided not to post on the list for personal reasons. I merely joined the list to share with other participants my "findings" using food grade mineral oil. Some contributors called FGMO "the silver bullet." I never made that remark. I always have felt that FGMO is a good to excellent alternative method for the treatment of honey bee parasites. I have worked relentelessly for ways to improve its cost-efficiciency and its efficacy. There are many beekeepers world wide who have followed the announcements that I have made as I continue to improve my protocol Apparently, judging by annecdotal responses world-wide in multiple ways, that they are having success with FGMO. I thoroughly think that those who succeed do succeeed because they follow my protocol in earnest. I also believe that those who do fail, fail beacuse they neglect to follow the patterns of success that I have described. For those who wonder about my justification for thymol addition to my established FGMO formula. Here is my answer. FGMO is effective for the removal of hney bee mites (both varroa and tracheal) however slowly because it acts mechanically by depriving the mites of biological functions. Thymol is toxic to mites ( as proven by "recognized researchers"). Thymol used in hogh dosages is also toxic to honey bees. However, thymol as used in my emulsified form at a mere 3.79 % strength is not toxic to honey bees. In this formula, thymol is locked into the formulation and released piece-meal as the bees chew on the cords contrary to other commercial preparations that are much more higher in conentration and in which thymol is released into the hive atmosphere by evaporation. In my research group, we are using FGMO/thymol only in non-honey gathering hives as will be published at the end of this years study. Thymol is being used only in package hives that were delivered infested with varroa mites and SHB. There will not be any honey harvested from these hivess. At the apiary where thymol is being used, the only hives from which honey will be harvested HAVE NOT been treated with thymol. The reason for addition of thymol to these test hives IS meant as a synergistic measure to ACCELERATE the rate of death of varroa mites. And the assumption proved corrrect. Test hives were quickly freed of mites and SHB'S! More data will be forthcoming when this test period is complete at the end of this beekeeping season. I do not mean to be disrepectful nor reply in irate manners when others criticize my methodology. I merely defend the "fruits" of many years of efforts for the benefit of beekeeping in particular and huamnity in general. I would not blame anyone else for actiing similarly. I strongly believe that many of our modern techonlogy is owed to brazen pioners who dared risk their personal reputation for publishing what they believed might be beneficial to humanity. My rudimentary methods should be called "pioneering" in all rights. I admire those who are willing to trust my work and even more, those who knowing the they might be chastised, dare to admit they are FGMO. I offer my findings publicly for the benefit of those who may be willing to take a chance with my rudimentary methodology. I do not take fault with those who express their feelings against its use. That's their prerrogative. I do consider unwarranted comments by those who {make "supositions" without even ever having given a thought to using the procedure. In our great democracy, we are entitled to voice our feelings. But should we venture to categorically state that this or that procedure DOES NOT WORK merely because their gut feeling tells them that it does not? Yes, but please be respectful of the right of others who toil in search of better ways to improve status quo. I am sure that Mr. Thomas Alba Edison received many skeptical remarks in his day, but look how well we are iluminated these days. I think that use of electricity must be owed to those few who did not fear being chastised by the "non-believers"l I do not even imagine that FGMO might ever reach the point of greatness that use of electricity for ilumination has reached, but perhaps many hives will be saved by those who dare use it in their hives. Laboratory test have shown (and published world-wide) that FGMO does not leave residues in honey after three years of consecutive FGMO use. We continue testing for residues and will promptly publish laboratory results be they what they may be. We can not say the same for chemical pesticides that have soon failed with flying colors, both in protecting our bees and in leaving residues in honey. I continue to state that I would welcome the day when "academic" institutions with big research bucks will take on actual, sincere FGMO testing. The one being mentioned in this forum IS NOT VALID. That person failed to utlize the on-going protocol used for FGMO testing at the time. That person utilized my very first application of FGMO which I had already declared that it did not accomplish the purpse for which it had been employed. I know that that investigator did not use my proven established protocl becasue he mailed me a copy of the protocol that he used. Incidentally, I am in the process of asking permission from that investigator to wave copy right ownership in order that I may make the document known to the public. I suggest that those of you who are interested do likewise. Perhaps the author in question will release copy rights without restrictions. Let's hope so. Please excuse my long presentation. It has been a long time since I last posted and there have been a lot of material that has been accumulating. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:13:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol Todd: Have you seen "artists" selling their arts at the local Farmer's Market? (selling a perfect, artistic comb honey at $3.30 per container?) When was the last time your wife referred you as an Artist, instead of a beekeeper? Wish I had such an elegant spouse. Or I must be living in the wrong neighborhood. Yoon To govern the universe, one must first establish order in a country; to establish order in a country, one must first establish order in his neighborhood; to establish order in a community, one must first establish order in his household; to do so one must rectify one's own heart; to rectify one's own heart, one must use CORRECT definition. . . . especially when you are talking about beekeeping skills, which is not philosophical/religious mumbo jumbo. Roughly from Confucius :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:12:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bee "language"? -- Part 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Adrian & all > With all the evidence at variance with the language hypothesis > finally now all readily available, why do language advocates continue > to ignore the extensive body of that negative evidence? One feature of the whole wrangle about bee communication (of which dance is only a part) is the polarisation into two groups... One group accepts the majority of the work so far and draws a set of conclusions. The other group picks on some of the anomolies (yes, there are some bits that are not perfect), and by using logic, language and abstractions that are not mainstream, sets about slagging off the work done so far. My own words and statements have been modified and twisted beyond belief on several occasions by dance detractors. Harranging individuals and claiming 'institutional bias' is not the way to convince people... Just show an auditable trail from one statement to the next that is not only feasible, but hangs together properly and then the point of view may get more respect. Recently, during the bombardment of your supporter Ruth Rosin that I and Norman Carreck were on the receiving end of on the Irish List, I mentally re-visited my own appraisal of the situation (my thoughts are never totally rigid) I can honestly say that I shifted my ground on some minor points, but my overall conclusion remains the same. To me the 'truth' is important, but anything has to be shown to be true by a consensual process that is understood by the majority, whether I am personally right or wrong is of no consequence. Minority views that use 'special logic and language' that is only understood by an elite few will always be regarded with suspicion by publishers. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 05:51:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Bower Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol Hi Bob: I know that I have not included enough information for you to accurately assess the condition of my bees or given you the history of my hive's origins. Only to say that they all came from splits of my own bees. I have not purchased any packages in 5 years, so you can see my bees have managed to overcome any improper techniques that I may have employed. (got to be careful of my word usage, especially that word "art") I believe you have my best interest at heart and I appreciate your input. As to additional postings...I find it difficult to keep up with the rate at which this list moves. Dont you people have other things to occupy your time? best regards, Kurt :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:11:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Normally, BEE-L moderators have a pretty simple job MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Normally, BEE-L moderators have a pretty simple job. Our job to stop SPAM, viruses, mail bombs, obvious trolls and responses to trolls, uncivil exchanges, flooding, loops, etc. In normal times, 95%, or more, of the material and submitted is quickly scanned by volunteers for format, gross error, suitable content, and routinely sent out to all BEE-L members. In normal times, BEE-L people are reasonably considerate, kind, and polite to one another, and discuss bees or beekeeping, and are mutually helpful. Granted, we always have had some posts that border on trolling, flame-bait, rudeness, distortion, grandstanding, etc., but in normal times, we don't worry too much about such things and tend to let borderline cases go by. Normally, the list members seem to recognise that some people are just bitchy or stupid or drunk, or whatever, and either delete their posts, read them with amusement and carry on, or reply mildly to whatever point piqued their interest -- and they stay on bee topics. Normally, BEE-L is a pretty tranquil list, and our job is easy. Not lately. Lately, our job has gotten much tougher and more time-consuming. Rather than just scan posts, we've actually had to read them, and then try to decide whether they are a valid contribution of information to the list, or if they are simply provocative, or reactions which add nothing and further provoke. It seems that, for some reason, lately, some are jumping to conclusions, hitting reply, and heading off on a tangent. We have been forced to make difficult judgement calls. We don't like to have to do so, and, of course contributors do not like to be rejected. While BEE-L welcomes competing and novel ideas about bees and beekeeping, and encourages discussion, BEE-L expects a degree of decorum, mutual respect, and patience, and adherence to the topic. The moderators are very much aware that, while most are here to discuss and learn, and teach, that people are easily drawn into bickering and arguments about matters that are not actually about bees, but rather about people and politics of various sorts. Sadly, such fascinating topics are not in our mandate, and after a brief indulgence, we must return to our core subject. We would like to thank those who have taken the time to contribute on several recent threads -- both those who made it under the wire for relevance and good manners -- and those who did not. We are asking contributors to, please, take the time to read their own contributions, and reflect, before sending them to us, and to re-write anything that can be construed as an affront to others or as being off-topic for this list. We also would like to ask that members limit their posts to one or two a day each, in order to allow for all to participate. Thank you, Your friendly BEE-L moderators. *** This is a meta-topic, and as such, any replies will be read by the janitorial staff (only), but such replies will not be passed on to BEE-L subscribers. *** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:31:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol In-Reply-To: <200309200951.h8K9oa90001515@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kurt Bower wrote..I find it difficult to keep up with the rate at > which this list moves. Dont you people have other things to occupy your > time? Kurt,Everyone knows that the bees do all the work,whilst we loaf on the internet argueing the merits of abusing our bees with various oils and the true meaning of words.As a beekeeper you surely know that we only got into beekeeping so we wouldnt have to go to work at a real job.Wishing you good luck no matter what treatments you choose.---Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:53:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Honey Bee Communication What is honey bee communication and do bees have a "language"? If one uses a narrow definition of language where it must be made of words or written symbols, then of course no creature but man has such a system for communication. But if one uses the looser conception that a language is whatever individuals use to get messages across, then we find that many creatures are communicating using various methods. * * * The "National Geographic" reports: The Navy's Special Clearance Team One from San Diego, California, comprises platoons of human divers, unmanned underwater vehicles and intensively trained bottlenose dolphins. Dolphins' unrivalled underwater sonar abilities, and great intelligence, make them uniquely suitable for locating mines in cluttered shallow-water environments where military electronic hardware is rendered virtually useless. In return for fish rewards, the dolphins use echolocation to search for mines on the seafloor. Upon detection of a possible mine, the animals notify their military handlers, who choose whether to send the animals back with an acoustic transponder. These transponders, which are carefully dropped nearby, can be used by human divers to locate and destroy the munitions. Dolphins have also been used to detect enemy swimmers and divers, and potentially, to attach markers. * * * Quite obviously communication is going on here. The Navy communicates to the animals what it wants them to do, and the animals in turn can communicate the results of their search. If one uses the definition of language that some information has been communicated, then the scope broadens considerably, to include all sorts of signals such as the territorial songs of birds and body language used by many different animals. The hypothetical nature of science is admitted by most broad minded individuals. One of the chief arguments against the theories of evolution is that the theories cannot be proved. No doubt given a few million years one could devise an experiment to verify evolution, but who has time for that? Even such an experiment would do nothing more than mimic what had already occurred, rather than "prove" anything. Scientists seek plausible explanations which stand only until better ones appear. And the role of consensus must not be overlooked. Of course, the majority is not always right, but neither is the lone voice crying out in the wilderness. The need to persuade a majority of the people is one of the hallmarks of democracy and is a chief defense against elitism and technocracy. * * * Donald R. Griffin writes in "Animal Minds" (2001): Wenner and Rosin insist that von Frisch's discoveries are suspect because they imply that bees are "capable of human-like communication (language)" or because "a hypothesis which claims human level 'language' for an insect upsets the very foundation of behavior, and biology in general." If we accept communication as evidence of conscious thinking, we must certainly grant consciousness to honeybees. Contrary to the widespread pessimistic opinion that the content of animal thinking is hopelessly inaccessible to scientific inquiry, the communicative signals used by many animals provide empirical data on the basis of which much can reasonably inferred about their subjective mental experiences. [note: Donald Griffin is an associate of the Museum of Comparative Zoology at Harvard University. He has been publishing about animal behavior since his groundbreaking book on bats came out in 1958. ] * * * submitted by Isis Glass Ann Arbor, MI :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:45:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: And now for Something Completely Different... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received this by email the other day, and, after some contemplation, decided that it would be quite in order to share this with BEE-L. If this appeals to you, please respond to David Lizama, not to BEE-L or to me. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com --- I am a Segment Producer with Nash Entertainment and working on a FOX Television special tentatively titled "Embarrassing Moments Caught on Tape." I am searching for blooper-style video featuring Bee Keeping enthusiasts, amateur keepers, professionals, or instructors and respectfully request permission from you to forward this request on my behalf to the members of your organization. I did not want to attempt contact with members of your organization without your permission and approval. Please instruct me on your protocol and/or procedure for this type of request so that it can be properly made. I would appreciate if you would instruct me on an acceptable method of reaching out to them. I'm basically looking for silly stunts, accidents or mishaps caught on tape--lighthearted stuff where nobody is seriously hurt but where the viewer is left wondering, "what were they thinking?" This is meant to show that amateurs and even experts are not perfect and are prone to having a bad day at the office. I figure this type of video will have been captured at amateur and professional event/gatherings and that there must be those who have friends/relatives taking home video and a 'blooper' style incident was caught on tape. Another option might be incidents in the form of 'outtakes' taped in the making of a promotional or corporate video. Please understand that we are very interested in getting the Keeper's side of the story and would like to interview these folks about their experience. We are not trying to make anyone look dumb, rather we are demonstrating the unpredictability in life and how it is often funny and hilarious. Would you happen to have any video of your own? Would you be interested? If not, would you please consider forwarding my request to other people, groups or organizations you feel would be interested in providing or referring me to this kind of videos, especially the members of your club? Would it be possible for you to forward this request for footage to all of them? We pay a reasonable license fee for each clip we use and our clearance department will negotiate the licensing fee with whomever owns the tape. We license footage based on the visual appeal of the 'caught on tape' aspect of the footage. We also will pay a 'finder's fee' for referrals that lead to bona fide 'caught on tape' material; that is, where we actually license footage from someone to whom we have been referred. Keep in mind that the most appealing aspect we look for is spontaneity since we are not looking for footage that has obviously been "staged" to happen or in any way shot with the intention of misleading viewers into thinking that it was anything but genuinely "caught on tape." Please call or write me soon if you or any of your members would like for us to consider video footage for inclusion in our show. I can provide my FEDEX account for overnight shipping purposes. Do you know of any other clubs or groups that I could also contact for this type of request, perhaps internationally? Thank you for your time and consideration. I look forward to hearing from you and your members soon. Sincerely yours, David Lizama Hollywood, California Tel. 323-468-4784 Fax 323-468-4644 Email: dlizama@nashentertainment.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:54:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FGMO-Thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kurt, I know that I have not included enough information for you to accurately assess the condition of my bees or given you the history of my hive's origins. Kurt raises an important point. When asking for the solution to a beekeeping problem from those on BEE-L always include as much information as you can as trivial as it may seem. Kurt said; Only to say that they all came from splits of my own bees. What race of bees are you running? Kurt said: I have not purchased any packages in 5 years, so you can see my bees have managed to overcome any improper techniques that I may have employed. I would say you have been sucessful. You are even raising your own queens? Kurt said: I believe you have my best interest at heart and I appreciate your input. I really do. I have shared quite a bit of beekeeping information not found in books with the list and have at times given a glimpse into the world of the migratory beekeeper. Little is known of the world of the migratory beekeeper. Kurt asks: As to additional postings...I find it difficult to keep up with the rate at which this list moves. Dont you people have other things to occupy your time? If you notice many do BEE-L while they are suppose to be doing their everyday Monday through Friday jobs. The list always slows down on the weekends. Now is my busy Beekeeping time and is what I do these days so I might post anytime of day or night. I keep no regular hours. I regularly leave the state doing bees. November, December, January and February are slow times for me . I still bottle for stores then and repair equipment but spend quite a bit of time reading and researching beekeeping on the net. Things are always changing in migratory beekeeping. My partners and I are trying to decide now if to winter in Texas, California , Florida or stay home. Florida is my idea because I want to work on my tan but they say we can not go to Florida only because you want to visit with your old bee buddies and work on your sun tan! If not for the big pond we could maybe talk Robin into letting us winter in his area so he can see first hand our style of beekeeping. Bob Ps. Every so often the moderators cry foul! Nothing new! We promise to behave moderators! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:46:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Controversy in science Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, barry@birkey.com In-Reply-To: <00ea01c37f68$3338e980$0a00000a@DaveCushman> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" One final posting before I go off to Maryland for a complicated bee research project: People seem to love controversies when they are in someone else's "backyard." Scientists also relish controversies when they deal with minor issues. By contrast, people become very upset when controversies strike at the heart of their belief systems. That shouldn't be. In my lectures, I have often said, "Controversy is the fuel of scientific progress." Galileo had to work against the "consensus" of the times, as did Pasteur, Darwin and scores of other "dissenters." Today we don't consider that a black mark against the persistence of those leaders. I am not alone in this attitude. For instance, Naomi Kraus wrote (p. 13 in THE SCIENTIST, December 12, 1994, in an article entitled: "Scientific world's low tolerance for controversy may be what's excluding young investigators"): "Controversy is no longer viewed as the warf and woof of the fabric of science. On the contrary, it seems to be perceived by the powers that be as a potential source of embarrassment, which might create problems for the public image of science." and: "The current emphasis on 'mainstream' thinking, along with discouragement of dissent and innovation, ultimately stifles -- if not entirely paralyzes -- progress in science." Enough said? Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:38:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Drutchas Subject: bee language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe I missed this and its already been hashed over, if so forgive = me.Wasn't there an experiment where a mechanical bee was used to = simulate the dance and it worked. I thought this was the ultimate proof = that bees can communicate using the dance. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:42:32 +0200 Reply-To: Ahlert Schmidt Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ahlert Schmidt Subject: Papers suggested for reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo , to all readers of Bee-L! I just want to add some recent publicatins regardig bee dancing and further relationg the question of bees can do the math. Please read the recent publications cited below: Esch H.E., Zhang S.W., Srinivasan M.V., Tautz J. (2001) Honeybee dances communicate distances measured by optic flow, Nature 411, 581-583 Tautz J., Casas J., Sandeman D.C. (2001) Phase reversal of vibratory signals in honeycomb may assist dancing honeybees to attract their audience, Journal of Experimental Biology 204, 3737-3746 Srinivasan M.V., Zhang S.W., Altwein M., Tautz J. (2000) Honeybee navigation: Nature and calibration of the "odometer", Science 287, 851-853 Nieh J.C., Tautz J. (2000) Behaviour-locked signal analysis reveals weak 200-300 Hz comb vibrations during the honeybee waggle dance, Journal of Experimental Biology 203, 1573-1579 Rohrseitz K., Tautz J. (1999) Honey bee dance communication: waggle run direction coded in antennal contacts?, Journal of Comparative Physiology A 184, 463-470 Tautz J. (1996) Honeybee waggle dance: recruitment success depends on the dance floor, Journal of Experimental Biology 199, 1375-1381 Best regards Ahlert :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:15:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: bee dances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick asked "Wasn't there an experiment where a mechanical bee was used to simulate the dance and it worked." Yep. Tom Seeley (Cornell) developed a robo-bee that would dance and send bees to exactly where Tom wanted them to go. Often to stations where there was syrup so diluted that it failed to attract bees other than those sent by robo-bee! (All the bees in the robo-bee hive were marked so that the researchers could be certain to identify them.) See his wonderful book, The Wisdom of the Hive. That said, what I have gleamed from the about-to-become-boring discussion is that dance is only one of the ways that bees communicate food sources. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:32:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: drum pump MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While I have the ability to tip a drum to pour into 5-gallon buckets, everytime I do it I count myself grateful that I have not yet had the lid come loose! I am looking at a mechanical drum pump to partially unload drums before tipping. The pump I am looking at says liquids may have a maximum viscosity of 2,000 SSU. Anyone have any idea of the viscosity of honey at 70 degrees F, expressed as SSU? Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:05:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: bee dances In-Reply-To: <003001c38042$7fdbbd50$39256118@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > "Wasn't there an experiment where a mechanical bee was used to simulate the dance and it worked." Not by Seeley though ... see: How honeybees perceive communication dances, studied by means of a mechanical model. Michelsen, A., Andersen, B. B., Storm, J., Kirchner, W. H. & Lindauer, M. 1992. Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology, 30, 143-150. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:18:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: safely removing heavy supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, At many bee meetings the subject of the weight of honey supers comes up. The issue of the different choices of super sizes is the main issue with hobby beekeepers. The real issue in my opinion is: My point is that I have seen guys weighing less than 100 pounds handle boxes heavier than heavy deep supers all day long without problem. Most truck lines set weight limits for a single man in the 125 pound range. The reason super weight is always a subject for many hobby beekeepers is that many are couch potatoes and simply out of shape! When I hire help with bee work which involves heavy lifting I always reach out in a friendly way and touch the arm of the future helper. If flab is found I decline his offer of help as out of shape even a shallow super can cause serious injury. In the spring of the year before heavy bee work and before honey super removal starts I do excersizes. So do all my beekeeper friends. Even simple streching excersizes before the day starts can prevent injury. A few of those reading the above on the list might remember me shaking their hand and putting my hand on their arm at the same time at a national meeting. Out of shape is a dead give away of a commercial beekeeper which spends all his time in the office on the phone or arranging schedules and does little of the actual bee work himself. Many times these are the lifetime beekeepers which get a serious bee sting reaction as they let their imunity drop because of lack of stings and the whole world says he has sudddenly developed a reaction to stings after a lifetime of getting stings. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:11:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: drum pump MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Anyone have any idea of the viscosity of honey at 70 degrees F, > expressed as SSU? There is no standard viscosity for honey at any given temperature, since some honey is thixotropic, some is very dry and some has higher moisture, some is slightly granulated, etc. Moreover, pumping honey at 70 degrees F is usually not advisable. Due to the necessary length and small bore of manageable suction and discharge lines, and a desire to pump at a reasonable rate, almost any pump will cavitate and render the honey cloudy. Heating the honey to be pumped to 80 or 90 degrees makes a huge difference in flow. For honey at ninety degrees, a two inch (minimum) intake and outlet hose is desirable. Smaller sizes (1-1/2") can work, but 2" is best IMO. Flexible food-grade hose can be found at dairy supply outlets, and using Cam-lok fittings on both inlet and outlet makes moving, and clean-up easier. Keep the intake hose as short as possible and be very careful to avoid air leaks in the intake, unless you want to produce a churned, aerated product. Ordinary 1" brass gear pumps, driven by a 1/2 HP motor with a 1" pulley driving a 12" pulley do the job quite well, but Jabsco rubber impeller pumps are popular, too. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Why Canada should be importing US bees. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:53:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers In-Reply-To: <000901c38053$ac644840$57a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <000901c38053$ac644840$57a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes > Out of shape is a dead give away of a commercial beekeeper which spends all >his time in the office on the phone or arranging schedules and does little >of the actual bee work himself. I guess that's me sacked then Bob, as I am 'slightly' on the tubby side. I work all day at the bees too, doing most of the technical stuff, and a fair amount of the lifting too. Unfortunately the trucks seem to know their own way into all the best fast food establishments in our bee areas. Besides, a firm stomach is a useful 'third hand' at times when working and you need to give things that extra little shove. (Perhaps I should have thought of sumo as a career option.) Seriously though, Health and Safety regulations in Europe are a real problem, as they now specify maximum weights it is allowed to ask someone to lift from a variety of positions and outreaches. No full supers, even shallow ones, come within the parameters set. Fortunately most people are realistic about this, and know what needs to be done and get on with it. Commercial honey production in our country would be very difficult under full compliance with the rules. Some on the other hand trade on it. We had one ex-soldier here a couple of years back who complained half an hour into his first day that the boxes were too heavy and gave him a sore back. It was his 5th job in the year since he came out of the forces. Imagine his attitude when a young girl of 14 (small and skinny too!) on for a couple of hours in the evening just got on with it and hefted them around no bother. He packed it in the next day. Turns out that a day and a half was the longest he had worked since he came out of the army, and his previous two jobs had lasted less than an hour. However, it fulfilled his duty to find work and meant he could continue to get his weekly benefit cheque. Another produced a sick note after one day. Claimed he had a bad back from the lifting we asked him to do. The guy was a keep fit fanatic and body builder and we thought we had a good strong guy on board. His claim failed because he was spotted at the gym exercising with weights whilst supposedly off sick with a bad back. Another doctor (a friend) translated the Latin term on his sick note for me. It said he was 'tired', and not injured as he claimed. You have to watch out as there are chancers everywhere. You have to watch your staff, to see they are lifting correctly with the legs instead of the back, and not doing anything stupid. Display all the correct notices, and make sure you have given instruction (even if you think it insulting to their intelligence, as it could save you a law suit later) as to what is required and what is NOT required, and get them to SIGN that they have had the instruction. I especially emphasise that we are not amused by young guys trying to show how strong and able they are. (no heroics, use the available help and follow the methods directed) If lifting something is a struggle then two of them take an end each before anything bad happens. Complex subject, with genuine practical concerns for any commercial operator. Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:47:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Barnett Subject: Re: drum pump In-Reply-To: <003a01c38044$d68ca9a0$39256118@newdell> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear asked about viscosity of honey in SSU at 70 Degrees. Look for "vicosity+SSU" on the internet. http://www.forceproducts.com/tech_viscosity.htm may help. Another site listed: Raw Honey at 100 F., SSU = 340 http://www.westerndynamics.com/Download/kin%20visc%20liquids.pdf Maybe this might put you in the ball park Bob Barnett Birmingham AL > From: Lloyd Spear > Subject: drum pump > > viscosity :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:08:05 +1200 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: drum pump In-Reply-To: <003a01c38044$d68ca9a0$39256118@newdell> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I am looking at a mechanical drum pump to partially unload drums before > tipping. The pump I am looking at says liquids may have a maximum viscosity > of 2,000 SSU. > > Anyone have any idea of the viscosity of honey at 70 degrees F, expressed as > SSU? Lloyd, Have a look at this page: www.airborne.co.nz/manufacturing.html#Viscosity for some values of honey viscosity at various temperatures and moisture contents - there is also some variability for floral sources, but not enough to make your calculations invalid. You will need to convert SSU to poise (centipoise is 1/100 of a poise). Have a look at: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/24_412.html to see how to do this. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:30:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray said; I guess that's me sacked then Bob, as I am 'slightly' on the tubby side. Being tubby or even overweight is not the problem. Lack of muscle tone is the reason most get hurt. >From our private emails Murray I know you do plenty of heavy lifting bee work. If I remember correctly you told me awhile back you have spent quite a bit of time in the yards this year because of help problems. I bet you have got excellent muscle tone in your arms, legs and back. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:47:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: drum pump MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: Ordinary 1" brass gear pumps, driven by a 1/2 HP motor with a 1" pulley driving a 12" pulley do the job quite well, Kelley co. rates the above setup for honey with a temperature of 84 F. and warmer. I can pump 70 F. honey with the above setup by using a one horse motor *but* without a gear reduction you will get belt wear over time when the pump starts up. I have not had a cavitate problem so far but only use the pump at 70 F. to clear a sump (approx. 40 gal.) at room temperature. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:23:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Open Feeding One of the problems with open feeding is uninvited guests. http://www.pbase.com/image/21561202 Regards to the list Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:16:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Friends: I pen this memo with a grave heart. An ole hand in the trade, I have been keeping bees, as you might recall through my Bee-L postings, without using any chemicals or any other manipulations, such as small cell, naively thinking that I must assist my bees develop their own resistance in time. This is my third year of none treatment, in fact, and I am, by all the signs I observe from my bees crawling in front of the hive, on the “threshold,” if not over the threshold. Yes, I hear you say, “told you so.” Yep, the mites are kicking and alive. Last time I treated my bees was in the fall, 2000, three years ago, with CheckMite strips. My home yard, all on SBB, seems to have been hit harder or I spent more time observing them at home perhaps: many underdeveloped bees with shriveled wings, more than what I used to observe under a normal condition, crawl around the grass in front of the hives. I saw one with a varroa attached on the thorax, a reason why I said I could be over the threshold. My home yard (26 colonies), one of the three yards (total 50) I have, consists of about 80 % NWC and 20% Italians, some of which comes from feral sources and they seem to be doing better than the others according to my casual observations. No I did not bother to check the other yards, and probably won’t. My gut-feeling is that not all of them will succumb to v. mites, probably a wishful thinking. However, my heart is bleeding. I want to go ahead and treat them with chemicals to nuke’em. It is so hard not to when I see immature bees die, right and left. My hands are shaking as I type this. Would you please holler me not to? I realize treating them is my protocol, and my heart says go ahead. Yet my head says no way. My bees are still foraging heavily on fall flow, and not a single colony has yet crashed, but I know darn well they will around early winter. Sure, buying bees are expensive and it will take years to build up again. But, as Andy N. had once put it, I will be damned if I put any chemical in the hive, again. I would like to ask my shipmates to tie me up on the mast, blind me, bind me, beat the day light out of me if necessary, shove and stuff wax in my ears, and no matter how pitifully I cry, do not pay any attention whatever. Going down with the ship. Bring ’em on. Ordinary Sunday, September 21, Circa 2003 Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:57:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear "Alone on the threshold" Yoon said: " But, as Andy N. had once put it, I will be damned if I put any chemical in the hive, again." Keep us posted Yoon! Realize many beekeepers have done exactly as you propose to do! (of course most are now out of the bee business !). I would have thought by now you would have learned to test (ether roll or sticky board) so you could share your mite loads with us so we could advise? Good luck with whatever path you choose! Bob "Thinking if Yoon was keeping bees for a living hard times would be right around the corner in Oklahoma" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::