From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:20:31 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D63148FBC for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdM011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0309D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 322332 Lines: 7002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:55:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Open Feeding "Tim Vaughan" said: > One of the problems with open feeding is uninvited guests. > http://www.pbase.com/image/21561202 Interesting to see wasps and bees feeding together. I bring supers home on my trailer and there are, inevitably, spots of honey left on it after I have moved the supers into the honey house. These are rapidly cleared by bees and wasps of course, but I noted on several occasions this year that bees and wasps never seemed to feed from the same spot of honey - some spots would have all bees, some all wasps. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 05:17:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold In-Reply-To: <200309220016.h8M07J9A012232@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 21 Sep 2003 at 20:16, yoonytoons wrote: > But, as > Andy > N. had once put it, I will be damned if I put any chemical in the hive, > again. I liked Andy, and certainly miss his wit and wisdom on the list. But I can't see how one can lose his soul by having compassion on his bees. If my dog has worms, I take her to the vet and pay for the necessary treatment. I refuse to just let her suffer and probably die. Likewise my bees. I have accepted the husbandry of them, and part of this relationship is to try to allieviate suffering for them. I do not like to take medicines either, and would always prefer the "natural" course when possible, but, when no other route works, I do what I have to do. Life is precious. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.info or http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:20:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: Ezy loader opinions This week someone talked about the physical health needed to keep bees on a large scale. I would just add to that discussion that the days I worked with a large operator this summer were some of my most painfree days I have had in years, I think because I was working! One of the things I am pondering as I grow as a beekeeper is how to set up and transport hives. Does anyone have an opinion on the Ezy loader made in Australia and available in Canada? While about as expensive as a new albeit small Bobcat/skidsteer it looks very practical as far as maneuverability out in a field and in how it can be used for hive inspections. Any comments? Loader link: http://www.herbee.com/page4.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:14:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Murray McGregor" "Complex subject, with genuine practical concerns for any commercial operator" Let me pipe up that heavy lifting is most probably also the biggest deterent to increasing the number of HOBBY beekeepers. Newcomers take one look at what operating a normal hive involves and say 'Not for me!' despite the interest in the subject that brought them along in the first place. Bob may say it is a question of sorting out labouring help that is up to the weight-lifting involved - but if we apply that to hobbyists we discourage all the office workers who might like to take up beekeeping as an active hobby on retirement. You do not have to be out of shape to be unable to handle hives with safety - as Murray says, " No full supers, even shallow ones, come within the parameters set [by Health and Safety regulations in Europe]. I find it extraordinary that suppliers still sell hives without safety warnings and wonder when the first court case will come. As mentioned on previous occasions, my own retirement project is to find/develop methods and equipment that enable beekeeping to be safe, enjoyable and profitable as a hobby - in particular for the 'mature' beekeeper and for children aged around 12 (the receptive age). So my Long-deep hive has cut the supers in half , to take just 5 Manley shallow frames each, which both halves the weight and reduces back strain as the super is held closer to the body. This is the only hive I know of which can be claimed to keep lifting within UK Health & Safety guidelines. Can anyone help to draw up a list of other hives available to beekeepers to which that also applies? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:48:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "yoonytoons" "I will be damned if I put any chemical in the hive, again." Absolutely admirable - a style of beekeeping devoutly to be wished. Yoon however seems to be opting out of the responsibilities of a beekeeper by just leaving the bees to sort it out themselves - or die in the attempt. This seems not only to fly in the face of experience but also to be unfair to the bees. After all it was not bees that enabled varooa to jump from cerana to mellifera - beekeepers caused the problem and it is beekeepers who have, at the least, to allow melifera time to learn to cope with this addition to the pests that trouble them. So, no chemicals, yes. But to support mellifera during whatever time scale is needed for changes to natural behaviour to evolve/intensify, surely we should be providing permanent mesh floors (to take advantage of a natural weakness of varooa in that soem 20% they lose footing when moving from bee to bee, and with mesh floors they drop out to their doom). Next, if we are depending on intensification of the grooming habit to dislodge a higher proportion, should we not be trying to 'train' the bees to groom by dusting with powders such as icing sugar? I use 'train' loosely of course, as is a metaphor of course, acquired behaviour is not transmitted to future generations - but a colony on the way to evolving grooming will have its chance of survival increased if the beekeeper encourages the bees to use that behaviour to the full , so that colony will stay in the race and so will be a candidate for evolving further to full self-sufficient grooming behaviour. Dusting of course works only on the mites riding adult bees , not those buried in brood cells. So for maximum efficency, we need to time the dusting to when bees have no brood - which can be mid-summer if simple management techiques are used to divide a colony to broodless queenright swarm and queenless parent colony - the swarm is then treated immediately and the parent 3 weeks later when all brood has emerged. With dusting we can hope to both save colonies from collapse whilst still detecting the best groomers to breed from . When tougher treatment is needed, we can add spraying the broodless beees with lactic acid or hopefully sucrose esters - soft non-residue forming chemicals. In addition, we can take out the first brood laid after the break and treat with formic acid or simply fook out sealed brood - the surviving vaooa will be concentrated in those cells. Yoon's abandoning his bees to fate is like giving up teaching children to swim and just throwing them into the deep end to sort out those with a natural instinct to swim. With respect, we need to continue patiently to give help as needed to lengthen the timescale within which nature works. IMHO, at the stage we are now at, witholding all help will just leads to deaths that are in vain - and which may actually delay detection and breeding from colonies that are acheiving some progress. Unhappily, the day darkens for Yoon's bees since even if the varooa are now removed, the virus levels are likely to so high the colonies will fail to regenearte after clustering for winter. I write in hope these thoughts may save their sucessors from a similar fate. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:39:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: RE; [Bee-L] bee "language" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Ruth Rosin" "Insects, however, cannot perform arithmetic calculations, or even count in the first place." This where I really hit the delete. There is no possible grounds for such assertions - surely we simply do not know (yet) fully what goes on inside a bee's brain? The person who has done most work here is Professor Pichard , formerly of Cardiff Uny, who has scanned a bee brain in 320 slices. In his lecture this weekend in Wales UK he showed the unpublished scans in comparison with the scans of other brains (such as braula) and showed the mushroom bodies that light up when a bee's brains is active , the 'decision tracks' down which impulses travel to the memory 'files'. He gave his opinion that he has no difficulty in ascribing an ability in bees to feel emotions. He did not comment on numeracy but it is clear that bees have many powers not understood that we should be ready to accept (after keeping an open mind meanwhile). On dancing, he showed a video of the robot 'dancing bee' that could be used to direct marked attendants to feeds at any distance and direction. The robot got stung if it did not give out syrup in addition to dancing! Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:09:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold In-Reply-To: <3F6E8606.627.B38AE@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Green wrote: > I can't see how one can lose his soul by having compassion >on his bees. .... Life is precious. I must agree, Consider the Oxalic acid vaporizer as a treatment protocol. You can easily and quickly make your own with the instructions provided on this page: http://www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/oxal.htm I don't believe in using chemicals on the bees unless it's a matter of survival. Then the least toxic ones should be used first. I cannot remember if you are using open bottom hives. If you are then a heavy smoking with sumac is supposed to knock down the mites too. Get off the mast and save those bee if you can! Tom Patterson, D.C. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:43:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: safely removing heavy supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Can anyone > help to draw up a list of other hives available to beekeepers > which can > be claimed to keep lifting within UK Health & Safety > guidelines? Having never seen the UK guidelines, I can't say. But, FWIW, there are some suppliers who offer (or are bringing back) 8-frame equipment. Some are offered as "garden hives" with rooves similar to British hives, copper covered, very cutsie. Frames are US standard Langstroth sizes (both mediums and deeps) but the boxes only hold 8 vs. 10 frames, hence the boxes are more narrow and lighter to lift. Bees kept in such hives are prone to forage on pansies ;-) Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:22:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wesley A Voigt Jr Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am glad to see that Yoon had the courage to report the problems his bees are having with the mites and the problems with non treatment that he believes so strongly in. It takes strength to expose one's self to what can be harsh treatment from this group. How many of us are willing to admit our failures in a public forum? This kind of honesty can help us all improve the treatment of our bees. Yoon - I hope you find a way to say your bees Wesley Voigt :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:24:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: "Dancing with Bees" on CNN MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CNN is running an interview today with Frank Cellaert & Tucker Balch of Georgia Tech complete with observation hive. Although DL is discussed the main reason for the research is to design the new tracking system. If you are reading my post Jerry B. the tracking system might help with your work in Missouri. What is new about the tracking system is the bees in the future will not need to be marked in order to be tracked. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:31:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TxBeeFarmer Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guess I'll say a few words on the subject. I run all mediums and found that when the hives get tall, lifting is difficult. I ran across Dee and Ed Lusby and ask how they do it, since they run all deeps. Dee told me they simply pull each frame and shake and brush off the bees. One pulls and hands them to the other. At first, I thought that would take FOREVER. But, the Lusby's run around 800 hives, so I decided to try it. To my surprise, I found it went pretty quickly and I was able to sort the frames into their various categories at the same time. Actually, it works out to take the same amount of time and with a lot less work - at least for me. (West Texas) Mark :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:09:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold In-Reply-To: <200309220016.h8M07J9A012232@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit yoonytoons wrote: > Friends: > > I pen this memo with a grave heart. > > An ole hand in the trade, I have been keeping bees, as you might recall > through my Bee-L postings, without using any chemicals or any other > manipulations, such as small cell, naively thinking that I must assist my > bees develop their own resistance in time. This is my third year of none > treatment, in fact, and I am, by all the signs I observe from my bees > crawling in front of the hive, on the “threshold,” if not over the > threshold. Yes, I hear you say, “told you so.” Yep, the mites are > kicking and alive. Yoon, I have been where you are but on a smaller scale. I admire your honesty. I do not like ascribing personal characteristics to my colonies, but it does hurt when I lose one because of what I might have done or not done. I agree with you that we should try to keep our hives as natural as possible, but I have learned that, in this age of Varroa, there are too many unproven techniques in beekeeping that, if followed, can lead to problems. I have tried, and found wanting, FGMO, screened bottom boards, essential oils, home grown "resistant" queens, even menthol cough drops and these are only the major ones that come to mind. I am experimenting with 4.9 cells and oxalic acid. (My 4.9 experiment is confined to one hive.) One thing that is constant is the names of beekeepers who try new, unproven methods and no longer post on this or any list. (Interesting that the FGMO thread almost mirrors itself every time it comes up, but always with the same objectors but new adherents. It was one of the main reasons that this list became a moderated list, because of the heat in the posts about it.) I now use chemical/commercial methods of controlling Varroa. I look at this time in beekeeping as a temporary problem where "nature" has been put out of order by the movement of pests into areas where they were not there before. It will take a while for things to re-order themselves, and in the interim, I will use commercially proven tools until the crisis passes. It does not stop me from experimenting with supposedly "proven" techniques (such as 4.9) to see if they work in Maine. (All beekeeping is Local.) I learned that the people to listen to on this list are those who have been around for a long time. They are mostly commercial beekeepers who have more than a hobby interest and have much more to lose. (BTW it is wonderful to see a post from Murray who has great insight, common sense, and is a commercial beekeeper - a trifecta.) It is interesting to read their posts. They are supportive of good science but wait, even then, to see the long term results of new discoveries. They might try something but confine the experiment to a few colonies (few being as many a 100!) so they can absorb the loss. They are in it for the long haul. And as such, they are the real beekeeping labs. They show what works over many years, not just a few. They are not afraid to let others know if something did not work. Most small scale beekeepers do not share that information, which is why I admire you. It is difficult because the loss for you is greater and personal. My heart goes out to you. God bless you. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:25:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buzz Beeman Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold Yoon, A Postscript to my posting. FWIW, it is my opinion that under FDA requirements and regulations for the treatment of honey bees in the United States only FDA approved pesticides should be administered with specific treatments approved by the FDA for the indicated condition and in only accordance with the required labeling of the product used in the treatment. The State of Oklahoma has not yet approved Api Life Var under Section 18 Emergency Exemption which leaves only Apistan and Checkmite, Section 18 Emergency Exemption, as legal treatments in Oklahoma. Now is not the time to experiment with your bees, now is the time to save your bees. -Chuck :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:34:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buzz Beeman Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold Yoon, Now is not the time to raise your hands in the air and think about the expense of buying more bees in the future nor be tied to the mast with an albatross around your neck; all is not lost! NOW IS THE TIME FOR IMMEDIATE DAMAGE CONTROL! Yoon, from what you have described, "many underdeveloped bees with shriveled wings, more than what I used to observe under a normal condition, crawl around the grass in front of the hives. I saw one with a varroa attached on the thorax" you have a major case of varroa infestation and it needs to be treated ASAP. I understand that you treated three years ago with Checkmite and have not treated since. FWIW this is my recommendation. First, call your appropriate bee inspector and ask for assistance, you have 50 hives which is a considerable investment of time, sweat, and money. If you are not able to get immediate assistance from either a bee inspector or a very experienced beekeeper then I suggest that you go into every hive, all 50 each yard at a time, and inspect each hive for strength, a viable queen assuring the existance of sparkling white brood in a good pattern, and disease. Next, combine "like" weak and queenless hives; those hives with disease, usually having light tan or brown and dying larvae with a spotty brood pattern, treat with Terramycin and do not combine with disease free hives. If you have brood that is capped and dead and has all indications of American Foulbrood my suggestion, depending upon the amount and intensity of infection, is to either treat for AFB or abate the hive. AFB is indeed treatable if the strain is not resistant to Terramycin and the case has not too far progressed. Sometimes you will need to combine multiple hives in order to assure that you will have numbers - bees- needed for wintering. Frames of pollen and honey from diseased hives need to stay with the same diseased hives. It would be a good idea in this case to treat all of your hives with terramycin as a preventative measure; even if you have no signs of disease - which in cases such as this is unlikely. You will find strong hives, weak hives, and hives in the middle of the road so to speak, take in mind that it is almost October and winter will soon be upon us with cold temperatures and a dearth of nectar and pollen; combine your hives accordingly with that in mind- the season is almost over! Now, after you have combined your hives and treated with terramycin treat for Varroa and trachael mites. Do not be tempted to bypass treatments for your strong hives; treat all remaining hives. Now put an entrance reducer on each hive and wait five days, then repeat terramycin treatments two more times at 5 day intervals. Feed your bees sugar syrup, it will provide food for both brood and winter stores as well as stimulate the queen to lay in greater numbers - going into winter numbers is the goal! Each time you go into the hive give a quick check for viability of the brood, look for sparkling white larvae and fresh eggs in a good pattern. After completion of three terramycin treatments requeen, if you can, those hives that were diseased and overly stressed. Treat for nosema if you wish while you are feeding syrup. Next spring make splits from those hives that were strong and healthy, and you may also consider the purchase a SMR queen for breeding purposes. Yoon, we have watched your progress as you have posted on this List; and I believe that we are all wishing for the best to come about of your Varroa problem. It is my opinion to take immediate corrective action, save your bees, and don't give up the ship! Let us know how you are progressing. I wish you well! Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:00:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ricks.toy@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Ezy loader opinions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If we are talking about the same Billet Ezyloader http://www.ezyloader.com ... I wouldn't be without mine and even for my small sideline operation (less than 75 colonies) the investment is worth the enjoyment added back into what is essentially a overgrown hobby. Before bees it was Large Mouth Bass Tournament fishing... I couldn't financially justify my $20,000 boat, rods, tackle, truck, travel, etc. but still enjoyed that adventure too. I purchased my Ezyloader second hand and added the cost of a one way airline ticket to the Finger Lakes Region of New York State and the drive back to Alabama's Gulf Coast to the agreed on price. The 200 RH model came attached to the 16 foot bed of a 1987 diesel flatbed. A great piece of equipment for a one or two person operation managing hives one at a time. It won't move a pallet with four colonies but easily handle hives one at a time or a stack of full supers (weight limit 450 pounds). The bigger version can handle over 800 lbs. Physically, I only move honey supers from the hive to a small pallet (drip board/honey house pallet) on the ground next to the hives. After all the supers are removes and stacked 5 or so high we back-in the truck and load using the Ezyloader. At the honey house we unload right at the door. Our next building (currently on the drawing board) will have a higher dock door and ceiling to allow us to back all the way in to unload. Rick & Nancy Leber Beekeeping and Honey Production since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home' Alabama On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:20:20 -0400 "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" writes: > This week someone talked about the physical health needed to keep > bees on > a large scale. Does anyone have an opinion on the Ezy loader... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:08:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers In-Reply-To: <001f01c3810d$dcc71b60$6d80c641@me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, TxBeeFarmer wrote: > Dee told me they > simply pull each frame and shake and brush off the bees. One pulls and > hands them to the other. At first, I thought that would take FOREVER. But, > the Lusby's run around 800 hives, so I decided to try it. To my surprise, I > found it went pretty quickly and I was able to sort the frames into their > various categories at the same time. Actually, it works out to take the > same amount of time and with a lot less work - at least for me. Granted I only run 5 hives, but that's more or less how I've been doing it. Also, I find that if I hold up the frame by one of the ears in one hand, and smack the top of the frame sharply with the heel of my other hand, practically all of the bees fall right off without any brushing at all, and relatively little agitation. Then I hold it by the other ear, smack it again, and the rest of the bees fall off. I then just put the frames into an empty super box on my wheelbarrow to transport them. This goes pretty quick, it takes about 20 seconds per frame. What I'm having trouble with is a bit different. When I take the hive apart down to the bottom board, I have trouble with the bottom sticking just enough that when I try to lift up the last box, the bottom board picks up about a quarter of an inch and then drops. This evidently really ticks off the guard bees hanging out near the entrance, and they come after me immediately. If I manage to get it apart without jarring, then the guard bees are no problem, but I only manage this about one time in three. Does anyone have a good solution to this problem? I'm considering attaching weights to the bottom board to give it enough weight to keep it from picking up so easily. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:18:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold In-Reply-To: <3F6F02AE.1000107@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Christine Gray wrote: > ... to support mellifera > during whatever time scale > is needed for changes to natural behaviour to > evolve/intensify. If the goal is to let the bees "evolve" till they are mite-resistant, aren't we actually slowing that process by saving bees who would otherwise not survive? Next Spring's bees are not inheriting their acquired behavior, only their mite load -- would it not be better to let both the inferior bees and their mites perish? Eugene Makovec __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:33:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wesley said: How many of us are willing to admit our failures in a public forum? In the archives I reported years ago that I lost over half my bees to varroa twice. I lost a couple yards to tracheal mites in the 80's but varroa has been the hardest problem I have ever had to work through in beekeeping. Harder than the cost of replacement was having so many deadouts to go through. I could not even work on a truck inside the building. Thanks to Michael Vanarsdall of Missouri Valley Honey farm of Walt Hill , Nebraska ( first time) and Kevin Jester of Jester Bee Farm of West Ridge , Arkansas (second time) I was able to get going again! When varroa first hit in Missouri hives were crashing all over. I could not find a beekeeper in Missouri not in the same situation to jump start me. (put bees back in my deadouts) The second time the problem was fluvalinate resistant varroa . I waited a year watching hives die until a section 18 was given for another treatment. Another Missouri beekeeper kept stopping the section 18 as he said the section 18 was not needed . When he and others started having problems the section 18 passed through the Missouri State inspection office quickly. Again I had to go out of state to get enough bees to get back up and running. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:52:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold In-Reply-To: <200309221425.h8MCY7GO027658@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Buzz Beeman wrote: > Yoon, > > A Postscript to my posting. >The State of Oklahoma has not yet > approved Api Life Var under Section 18 Emergency Exemption which leaves > only Apistan and Checkmite, Section 18 Emergency Exemption, as legal > treatments in Oklahoma. My suggestion would be Apistan (based on my Maine experience) especially since you have not treated for some time and last treated with Cumophose. But I bow to others in Yoon's area and with local experience. My guess, and it is just that, is that Apistan will be effective and probably more so than Cumophose especially after three years of not treating. (One test for Cumophose resistance is an Apistan strip to see mite drop. Even when Varroa is resistant to both you get good mite drop with Apistan but not with Cumophose.) Oxalic Acid would be a good alternate treatment but is not an authorized treatment in the US, and I have no idea how well it works with large Varroa counts. It does work well (95%) as a normal fall treatment in tests in Europe, where it is legal in several countries. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:03:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Robin said... > So my Long-deep hive has cut the supers in half , to take > just 5 Manley shallow frames each, which both halves the weight > and reduces back strain as the super is held closer to the body. In the early 1980s a very frail elderly lady complained to me that she could not lift supers. I made her some that were half width, but they were also made of thin plywood which reduces the weight still further. (they are only used in summer) You can see a drawing of my portly figure carrying two of these on... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/beekeepersback.html My physique may be large, but my strength is feeble... I have been pulling frames and brushing off bees for about fifteen years. I use swarm boxes to carry the frames back to the van and then just transfer them to empty supers that have sealing plates top and bottom. I though it would take much longer this way, and to be fair it is a little slower, but it does not take as long as you may first think. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:10:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold In-Reply-To: <20030922151817.50624.qmail@web20603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Eugene Makovec wrote: > > If the goal is to let the bees "evolve" till they > are > mite-resistant, aren't we actually slowing that > process by saving bees who would otherwise not > survive? Next Spring's bees are not inheriting their > acquired behavior, only their mite load -- would it > not be better to let both the inferior bees and > their > mites perish? > A point that I think is worth mentioning, though, is that when a hive crashes with a high mite load, it doesn't just die quietly by itself. Instead, a lot of bees evacuate to other hives carrying their mites with them. This gives a big surge in mite numbers, even in colonies that have some resistance to mites. I've read that even if a colony can keep their own mites under control, a big influx of mites from a crashing colony can overwhelm and kill them anyway. So, if you are going to go this route, don't just let the non-resistant bees die slowly. Put them down quickly so that they don't take all your other colonies down with them. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:55:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom said: Get off the mast and save those bee if you can! "If you can" needs to bee looked at. Buzz gives good advice as do all which have posted so far. The reality of Yoon's situation: Test each hive. If over threshold save your time and money as they are going to perish. Been there done that! If the hive is under threshold you can treat but if close to threshold only a 98% control like "Checkmite" will clean up the varroa. *and* The hive will be short on young perfect bees to winter on (very important in cold weather areas) Either move all the hives over threshold to a remote area to die to keep down reinfestation or put those hives out of their misery. I would call your Oklahoma bee inspector for help! Sorry to hear of your problems Yoon and wish you the best luck with whatever course of action you decide to take! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:13:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is my > third year of none treatment, in fact, and I am, by all the signs I > observe from my bees crawling in front of the hive, on the > "threshold," if not over the threshold. Sorry to hear that there is something wrong with your hives. Rather than assume that the damage is due stirctly to varroa, though, it might be wise to do some non-destructive testing to verify your fears. One of the dominant themes here in the past year is the need for measuring mite levels in order to predict a varroa overload in time to consider remedial measures. Have you done natural mite drops? If so, what do your sticky boards tell you? What have the mite drops been in the past? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:47:18 +0530 Reply-To: "Dr. Rajiv K. Gupta" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Rajiv K. Gupta" Organization: Zoology, Jai Narain Vyas University, Jodhpur 342 005, India Subject: Re: "Tracking bees" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello Bob & all, Does anyone know about any sort of tracking system applied to any kind of bees in the past ? What CNN is doing certainly interest me for some of the non-Apis bees behaviour and foraging range tracking. Rajiv K. Gupta BeesInd@sancharnet.in ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" To: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:57:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Timothy Eisele" "When I take the hive > apart down to the bottom board, I have trouble with the bottom sticking > just enough that when I try to lift up the last box, the bottom board > picks up about a quarter of an inch and then drops. Does anyone have a good solution to this problem? " Have you tried breaking the seal between the bottom bx and floor with your hive tool, leaving the hive tool in to stop full re-sealing along the edge furthest from you, then standing over the last box so you can grip the bottom board near you between the toes of your boots and slightly twisting as you lift? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:58:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "Tracking bees" Comments: To: "Dr. Rajiv K. Gupta" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rajiv asked: Does anyone know about any sort of tracking system applied to any kind of bees in the past ? Marking bees at the hive and then checking for the marked bees at the food source is the only method I am aware of. Rajiv said: What CNN is doing certainly interests me for some of the non-Apis bees behaviour and foraging range tracking. As usual the main reason for the Georgia tech research is not bee research but military to develop a tracking for tanks in the field and crowd tracking as talked about on CNN. If I hear from Jerry B. I will ask Jerry your question. Jerry and another member of BEE-L are working on bees locating mine fields in Missouri for the military over the next two weeks. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:17:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Eugene Makovec" " If the goal is to let the bees "evolve" till they are mite-resistant, aren't we actually slowing that process by saving bees who would otherwise not survive? " The problem is that few (or is none? - I have no experience with Russians ) colonies have as yet evolved to survive if left completely alone. So at present we must expect all unassisted colonies to die, even if it takes a few seasons. Behavoral changes are acheived in steps - it needs several successive mutations. So we need to help the colonies who are on the way but not fully there yet - which I suggested can be by stimulating grooming by dusting. We should be able to pick out the colonies that are induced by dusting to get rid of the highest proportion of mites, if we put mite catching boards under mesh floors. Dusting with talcum powder or icing sugar is not a crazy new method - it was one of the first mentioned in UK ministry leaflets in 1996. It is insufficient on its own for effective control ( but would get better if bees develop have a grooming habit and mites are actively helped to lose their grip) so that is why I suggested a second go with spraying lactic acid or sucose esters, and even a third go by removing the first sealed brood after a break in laying. But if dusting is used as the first treatment, we have a chance of picking out the colonies that have taken the first steps to developing grooming, to select for breeding. While we use hard chemicals, we learn nothing. Dusting has dropped out of sight because strips have been so easy to use - I am not being holier than thou, I myself have only used Apistan so far - but resistance is forcing us to relook at all the experience and I intend to at least try dusting next season. Back in 1988, Mobus in The Varroa Handbook wrote: ",,,, the simplest chemicals ( formic, oxalic, lactic) ... resistance is least likely to come about. In one respect we can be certain: varooa is least likely to lose its sticky pads and grow claws with which to cling to bee's hairs. When all else fails, we will have dusts and powders ...fine dusts can probably still help when varooa has become resistant to all other chemicals in use today." In 1988, Apistan was seen as 'the best long-term investment' - 5 years does not look that long now. Well, there may be some on the list who say we do not need to wait for a dust testing stage for grooming, they already have colonies that survive with no treatment. {Is conversion to small-cell now established as reliable on its own?}. If so, Yoon could be offered hope of following their methods, still within his vow. Would a quick run round progress towards natural resistance to varooa be helpful at this time? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:42:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: "Tracking bees" In-Reply-To: <000701c38133$27598800$54a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:58 PM 9/22/03 -0500, you wrote: >Rajiv asked: >Does anyone know about any sort of tracking system applied to any kind of >bees in the past ? I could have sworn that I had seen a miniature transmitter used for this purpose in a journal/magazine several years ago. I doubt it's transmitting range was very good, but electronics have gotten much better since then. Likely it would have to be custom designed and manufactured. A good project perhaps for EE grad students in microcircuit design. Google turns up some potentially useful hits. A radar marker which can track insects up to 100m in air (no battery needed). http://www.globaltechnoscan.com/28feb-5march/insects.html http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/tools/telemtry/pulsetra.htm A 'grain of salt' transmitter (2km range) http://www.darpa.mil/dso/thrust/biosci/cbs/mayo_ab.html >Marking bees at the hive and then checking for the marked bees at the food >source is the only method I am aware of. I've never marked workers, but it was interesting the first year I had one NWC hive (the rest were all italian). The dark bee stood out among the golden italians. I found it interesting how much (attempted) robbing (italians trying to get into the NWC hive) was going on in the height of the honey flow. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:02:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers In-Reply-To: <008901c380fe$76e0d340$139cbc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <008901c380fe$76e0d340$139cbc3e@oemcomputer>, Christine Gray writes >You do not have to be out of shape to be unable to >handle hives with safety - as Murray says, " No full supers, even shallow >ones, come within the parameters set [by Health and Safety regulations in >Europe]. For fear of being misunderstood, I do not actually agree that it is *generally* unsafe to handle these things. The rules are set for the lowest common denominator. Weak persons, not lifting correctly. Then you are also supposed to have trained them, or ensured that they are formally trained elsewhere. Even largely unfit persons should be able to lift more than the prescribed limits, which are set to protect those who really cannot, but take no account of the differences between people. There have been no staff here who would tolerate fiddling away for a fair chunk of the day with tiny loads, to do what they could do in less than an hour carrying decent loads. Even the smallest girls want to carry shallow supers three or so at a time when empty combs, and a Canadian guy (no giant) would carry them three at a time full, and resent being told not to. I doubt the genuinely feeble would really want to take up beekeeping, but if they do they can, as you say, go in as a hobbyist and then their time is their own and they can harvest a comb at a time if they wish (and some do). I personally prefer deep boxes, even when full, as fewer lifts gets the job done quicker, and besides, our crop statistics over many years shows that the bees prefer big combs too. > I find it extraordinary that suppliers still sell hives without >safety warnings and wonder when the first court case will come. Only at the professional level I feel is there much risk here, and you have to defend yourself by appropriate training, and getting it signed for. At an amateur level, you see some appliance dealers showing empty and full weights for various box sizes, and they are in some of the text books too, then, having been informed of this, you make your own choices. They declared it, so the risk is your own. >This is the only hive I know of which can >be claimed to keep lifting within UK Health & Safety guidelines. Can anyone >help to draw up a list of other hives available to beekeepers to which that >also applies? Perhaps there are none (indeed I fully expect that to be the case) but perhaps that has a message in itself. Where there is demand a product will quickly come along to fill that demand, and as nothing other than your hive is currently in that niche it perhaps says more than anything about the need being less than might at first be thought, and therefore being uneconomic for the mainstream appliance dealers. I am sure the niche market for your hive will continue, and I reckon so long as it stays as a niche item you will be safe from aggressively priced competitors. The one I have seen being shown by a mutual friend was a good hive for its purpose. Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:18:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers In-Reply-To: <007501c38133$41bc98e0$9b83bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Christine Gray wrote: > Have you tried breaking the seal between the bottom bx and floor with your > hive tool, leaving the hive tool in to stop full re-sealing along the edge > furthest from you, then standing over the last box so you can grip the > bottom board near you between the toes of your boots and slightly twisting > as you lift? > Ah, I haven't tried leaving the hive tool in the crack. Sounds like a good idea, I'll try it. Thanks! -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:50:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Waldemar Galka Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>You can see a drawing of my portly figure carrying two of these on... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/beekeepersback.html Dave, My compliments on your website. I just wanted to add that, when inspecting a lot two-deep hives, it's perfectly all right to use a chair. This way one reaches out to get frames instead of bending down. The frames are easier to stabilize for a closer look and their is no bending. It seems to me the bees are also less defensive (but my bees gentle to begin with :) and I rarely use smoke. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:38:39 -0600 Reply-To: Mathew Westall Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mathew Westall Subject: Property Tax - Ag use for beekeeping approved - Colorado State Supreme Court ruling final MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Last friday (9/12/2003) a local nursery (Ladybug Corp - Castle Rock, CO) with beehives on their commercially zoned property received final ruling over the taxing issue of whether or not beehives constitute a farm for property tax purposes. Chief Justice Mullarkey of the Colorodo State Supreme Court denied certiorari reading to the Colorado State Board of Assessments & Douglas County Board of Equilization. In other words - denied the state's appeal to be heard and upheld the lower courts decision to finally recognize beehives into the property tax definition of a "farm". Obviously this ruling is a great win for beekeepers across the state. Ross Dolan, a reporter for the local paper will be coming out with a story covering the ruling tomorrow - 9/23. You can look for yourself tomorrow on their website: http://www.crdailystar.com/ & decision: http://www.courts.state.co.us/supct/caseannouncements/2003/09-08-03.htm Matthew Westall - E-Bees - Castle Rock, CO Paul Hendricks - Colorado Sunshine Honey Company ------------Case info to follow-------------- No. 03SC406 Court of Appeals Case No. 02CA0304 (4/17/03) BOARD OF ASSESSMENT APPEALS, and DOUGLAS COUNTY BOARD OF EQUALIZATION, Petitioners, v. LADYBUG CORPORATION, Respondent. Petition for Writ of Certiorari DENIED. EN BANC. CHIEF JUSTICE MULLARKEY would grant as to the following issues: Whether the Court of Appeals erred in reversing the BAA and holding that the presence of apiaries (beehives) on one of three parcels of property converts all three parcels to farms pursuant to § 39-1-102(1.6)(a)(I), C.R.S. (2002) for ad valorem property taxation purposes. Whether the potential that bees use naturally occurring plants (i.e. weeds) to produce honey creates a farm pursuant to § 39-1-102(1.6)(a)(I), C.R.S. (2002) for ad valorem property taxation purposes. Whether evidence that apiaries are present and owned by the beekeeper is sufficient, in and of itself to show a parcel's use is for the primary purpose of obtaining a monetary profit. Whether the court of appeals erred in reversing the BAA by deciding issues of fact and credibility resulting in a reversed determination that Respondent met the statutory definition of a farm for agricultural purposes. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:50:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: A swarm swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got called on a swarm last Tuesday and caught a small sized swarm. I got busy with other things and never opened up the hive to check on the progress or to see if there was a queen. Arriving home Saturday afternoon, I saw a swarm forming above my bee area. I followed it about 50 feet where is grouped in a snowball tree. I hived it again and this time gave it a feeder. So far they are still there. Can you tell me why a swarm would swarm a second time? Do I still stand a chance that they will swarm a third time? It is so small, I'm thinking of putting it in a observation hive for a few months and see what I can learn about bees. Kathy Cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:43:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Alone on the threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/09/03 05:02:09 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << My gut-feeling is that not all of them will succumb to v. mites, probably a wishful thinking. >> Yoon, Between the joists of a flat roof of a kitchen about 5 miles from me there are bees. They are flying in 3 places from the decaying fascia board. The owner says bees have been there for 20 years. We (in UK) have had varroa in this area for over 10 years. Nobody has treated those bees. There are no beekeepers very close as far as I know, but certainly they are within drone drift of a number of hives. My guess is that they take it in turns to die out and occupy each others' old niches. If you don't depend on your bees for your bread and butter stick with it Yoon. However I think you would learn more if you put your hives on mesh floors and monitored natural mite drop. For example you might identify the critical threshold for your own circumstances. Or you might identify hives with more success at coping with or evicting mites. Do what you think right. Be true to yourself. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:28:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/09/03 05:02:09 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: Murray said; I guess that's me sacked then Bob, as I am 'slightly' on the tubby side. I bet you have got excellent muscle tone in your arms, legs and back. >> For those who haven't met him, Murray is about 6 foot in all directions. I haven't been so rude as to prod him but it looks like muscle. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:53:23 +0200 Reply-To: Derek Steed Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Derek Steed Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wedges are the answer - as I recently discovered from the net - flat, wooden ones about 4cm wide and 10 cm long tapering from about 20mm to 3 mm thick.Separate floor from broodchamber with hive tool, shove in wedge halfway, do same on the other side.Lift broodbox clear.You can also separate heavy supers in the same way whilst loosening frames stuck to the super above.Also useful for raising the hive on one side off a palette whilst getting the hook of a spring balance under to measure the weight.Means you don´t have to call the wife ( she wouldn´t come anyhow, too frightened of getting stung ).Tip: it is possible to make a weight recorder for a spring balance by wedging a fine, taper-headed screw in the vertical slot in the weight scale; a washer and nut hold the screw in position tightened just enough to slide but not fall.This screw is automatically pushed by the indicator to the measured weight where it sticks.Eureka! no more grovelling on one´s knees ( where the hell is she ?) Regards Derek Steed :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:26:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: A swarm swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Kathy & All, > Can you tell me why a swarm would swarm a second time? > If a colony finds something undesirable about their new home they can abscond. A cavity to small or big, one with diseased combs, or possibly one with a comb size not to their liking will prompt a colony to swarm. I am sure there are other reasons and I am sure that others will comment on them. Below is a method to keep a colony from absconding and remaining in the brood box you put them in. This method will work as long as the queen is not small enough to slip through a queen excluder. If it does slip through the excluder it may be a naturally small queen from a feral colony that came off combs of small cells or from a beekeepers small cell hive. It may just simply mean that the queen is small enough to slip through the excluder. At any rate I would use the method below to keep a colony from absconding. When a beekeeper is converting to 4.9mm small cell combs the beekeeper puts a queen excluder on the bottom board before placing the brood box of foundation on the bottom board. Leave no exit for the bees except for through the bottom, close off all other entrances/exits. This is to keep the colony from absconding, it will include the queen with the brood box instead of excluding her from honey supers. When the queen has started laying and there are brood in all stages the queen excluder can be taken off. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:04:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: How Far Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quick question-How far do wet supers have to be placed (I know there is no set distance) to help discourage robbing. The 3 hive in the yard are strong and I do have some flexibility with distance. What I would like to do is put them in the shed I use for equipment. The shed is open under the roof and the door is opposite the hives. The distance is 40 to 50 feet. Another alternative is about 100 yards-a clearing in the woods where I live or several acres away in an open meadow on the property? Help-I extracted today and the wet supers are still in the utility room and I need to get them out in the morning and clean. Boy do I hate sticky!!!!! Thanks, Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:55:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Dewey Subject: Boiling boxes and frames in a lye solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm in the process of taking possession of 100+ used boxes (mixed deeps, Illinois & shallows) most with frames and comb, some the comb has been cut out. Our state Apicultural Guru (Tony J.) inspected all frames with comb before I agreed to the purchase - he did not find any evidence of scale. Never-the-less he recommends giving all the frames a lye bath and also that I either give the boxes a lye bath or scorch the interiors. I've never worked with lye and am curious what kind of shape frames & boxes are generally in after a bath. Am I better off getting rid of the frames (by burning) and starting new? The boxes/frames were part of a larger "take everything" bee keeping lot - I didn't put much of a $ value on the frames. I'd love to hear from some folks who've been the lye route, and whether having done it, they'd do it again. Thanks! Andrew Dewey Southwest Harbor, ME :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:41:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: A swarm swarms In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:50 PM 9/22/2003, you wrote: > Can you tell me why a swarm would swarm a second time? Do I still >stand a chance that they will swarm a third time? I've seen it happen twice this year. I have no real explanation for it. Perhaps they were not happy where I put them, two close to the other hives maybe. Or possibly they hadn't really settled in when foragers decided on another location. In both cases I know they stayed overnight. And in one of them I'm sure the queen was in the hive because I picked her up myself. The swarm had either fallen short of a tree, or had fallen from the tree because it was a 2 foot circle of bees on the ground with the queen in the dead center. I picked her up, put her in a hive and the rest walked right in. I have no good explanation why the would up and leave the next day. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:10:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: How Far? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Help-I extracted today and the wet supers are still in the utility room > and I need to get them out in the morning and clean. ROT is 300 feet. I don't recall whose rule, or whose thumb, but my recollection is 300 feet. And you will still have a nasty scene at the supers. You may not start robbing at the hives, but the bees will not be kind to each other at the feeding frenzy. An alternative I've been exploring is to put the wet supers back on the hives very early on a cool morning. Hereabouts that's about 6:30AM and 50dF. This is well before the bees are flying. I make sure that all hives receive at least one wet super. Robbing doesn't get started and the bees clean the supers quite nicely. Down side is you have to clear the bees from the dry supers again, although I suppose (but I have not experimented) that the bees will be inclined to abandon the dry supers readily if the abandonment method is employed as dusk approached. I clear bees with triangular escape boards. A tip I picked up this summer from a seasoned beekeeper is rather than stacking supers above a single EB on the same hive, a stack of supers can be built off to the side of the hive with an EB on the bottom of the stack and an EB on top of the stack. The bottom EB needs to be kept off the ground (an empty super works well) and leaves bees room to exit. I put the bottom EB perpendicular to the bottom super. The top EB should be weighted down with a brick or stone to make sure it stays in place. Of course, with EBs, ALL cracks between supers MUST be sealed (duct tape, the beekeeper's friend!). In as little as 15 minutes bees will be making a mass exodus from both top and bottom of the stack. In most cases, ALL bees (every last one) will have left the hive in 24 hours. There will be rare exceptions, sometimes the bees just won't leave, and they'll never abandon brood. But I'm sold on the double escape boards. More labor, without a doubt. But no funny smells in the extraction room! Aaron Morris - thinking bee go my ass! It's beekeeper go; I won't go neear the stuff. PU! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Boiling boxes and frames in a lye solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew said: Our state Apicultural Guru (Tony J.) inspected all frames with comb before I agreed to the purchase - he did not find any evidence of scale. Old frames usually come out of lye bath loose and and in my opinion are not worth putting new wax in . frames which are not very old usually come out ok. Andrew said: Never-the-less he recommends giving all the frames a lye bath and also that I either give the boxes a lye bath or scorch the interiors. Every bee inspector I have ever met will tell you the same. Why say different and have you blaming them if AFB should appear. I have seen beekeepers with new equipment get AFb in the first year. AFB happens! In fact i found a single cell of AFB last week in a new comb in a hive started with new equipment from a package this year in a hive of a fellow Midwestern club member. Also Not bad advice *if* the former beekeeper has had a history of AFB in his hives. If not ???? Andrew said: I've never worked with lye and am curious what kind of shape frames & boxes are generally in after a bath. boxes with several coats of paint get the lye water very dirty fast and the process is slow. I have posted many tips to using lye water in the archives. Put my name as author and lye water as subject. About everything you would want to find out about using lye water is in the archives. We used to be able to walk in an buy 10-20 cans of lye without a problem but because lye is used in the making of "meth" now you may get a visit from a detective if you buy cans of lye in large quantities in Missouri. Takes 3-4 cans to a 55 gallon barrel more or less. Andrew asked: Am I better off getting rid of the frames (by burning) and starting new? frames are easier and faster than boxes to lye and I have got around 500 I have put back to do but I caught a sale on frames instead a couple years ago and used those instead but still figure I might lye the 500 one of these days and see how they turn out. if loose in the joint I pitch. When you have been doing beekeeping as long as I have you can tell newer frames from older frames. Tony is an old beekeeping dinasaur like me and will pick frames worth using lye water on *if* he wants to. Andrew said: I'd love to hear from some folks who've been the lye route, and whether having done it, they'd do it again. Sure! Find a bee buddy which has a few things to boil and work together! . Start early in the day and you can sit around and exchange bee stories while the water comes to a boil which can take several hours if using a 55 gallon drum. We usually fire 2-3 drums at the same time. Most on the list would say burn all frames and scorch the boxes. There really is no set way to deal with used equipment. In the end you will have to decide for yourself which way to go. I hate to burn bee equipment which still has a useful life but do not have a problem burning junk! If the beekeeper is around for you to talk to and has not seen AFB in his hives and Tony has been inspecting his hives regularly than maybe you might take a chance and simply use the equipment. If I sold you a hundred of my boxes you would not need to pitch the frames and boil the boxes! Tony is one of the sharpest inspectors around. If AFB had been in those boxes Tony would have found the AFB I believe. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:27:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Tim, >Does anyone have a good solution to this problem? I'm considering >attaching weights to the bottom board to give it enough weight to keep it >from picking up so easily. > I use the hive tool at the entrance to break the bottom board loose. Takes a second or two. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:07:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold Yoon If I have understood you correctly, you are planning to let your bees die and then buy some more from someone who does treat their bees for varroa. I have difficulty with the logic behind that! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:25:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold Robin Dartington said: When all else fails, we will have dusts and powders ...fine dusts can probably still help when varooa has become resistant to all other chemicals in use today. Two points: First, how will you stop these 'dusts' from contaminating your honey. Dust will stick to any honey in open cells and we know that honey is moved from brood chamber to supers. Even icing sugar contains anti-caking agents. As far as I can see, powdered plain sugar would be the least unacceptable dust. Second, it is my understanding that it is very unlikely that varroa will ever become resistant to substances like thymol or organic acids. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:37:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: robot honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The October 28, 1989 issue of Science News has a two page article on the robot bee, titled ‘New Dancer in the Hive’. The Science News website’s archives do not go that far back, but many libraries subscribe to the magazine, so it should be on microfiche. This link will take you to another article on the robot bee. http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/bee_dance_2.htm Incidentally, the ‘Science News’ issue about the robot bee I saved also has an article on Cold Fusion. Remember that one? Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:41:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: A swarm swarms In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article , Kathy E Cox writes >Can you tell me why a swarm would swarm a second time? Do I still >stand a chance that they will swarm a third time? Your post does not make it 100% clear if the whole swarm has gone off again or if it has split into more than one unit. Either way the explanation is PROBABLY the same. Such a small size and the instability together generally imply that this is a cast rather than a full swarm and will thus be headed by one or more virgin queens. Only this summer I caged and used 8 virgin queens out of one swarm, and still it had at least one more to function with. ( My father and I together got 15 out of one a few years back) Virgin headed swarms are notoriously difficult to get to settle, as they can fly long distances and often already have some idea of where they are headed, and resist our attempts to home them. Multiple virgin swarms will often not be amenable to hiving until they have hung around for a day or two and the queens have 'sorted each other out' and only one remains. All is greatly helped by hiving at dusk, and adding a bar of open brood. Open brood generally (but not without exception) pins the virgin headed swarm by enticing them to care for it. Overnight is generally long enough for them to have adopted the brood and thus stay put. If you are unsure of the queen status of a swarm a bar of brood can be a good insurance against it absconding. Casts and swarms headed by multiple virgins also sometimes split up into smaller units rather than remain as a single unit. This may be because two casts have emerged in close succession, mingled in flight and ended up clustering together, then sorting themselves out once things settle down. All these weird anomalies do not happen in swarms headed by mated queens, which are simple to handle. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:54:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: A swarm swarms "Kathy E Cox" asked: Can you tell me why a swarm would swarm a second time? I would suggest that this was a mating swarm that you collected and hived.. The queen had not finished mating and flew again - the bees would go with her, as without a queen, eggs or young brood they would have no future. In my experience this can often happen earlier in the season with very large swarms headed by virgins (this can happen where a colony with a clipped queen tries to swarm and the queen is lost - the first virgin to emerge often leading out a very large swarm, especially if only one queen cell has been left). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:52:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar & all > when inspecting a lot two-deep hives, it's perfectly all right to use > a chair. In the UK many of our hives have robust 'telescoping' roofs (outer covers) which are very strong. A commercial beekeeper that I used to know used to orient all the hives in an apiary in a large circle. He then worked each hive from the inside of the circle, by removing the roof and sitting on it. He also had all his hives with the frames set 'warm way' so that manipulation from the rear were simpler. I have done something similar using the hive barrow illustrated on... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/hivebarrow.html as a seat. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:41:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Eugene Makovec" " If the goal is to let the bees "evolve" till they > are mite-resistant, aren't we actually slowing that process by saving bees who would otherwise not > survive? " The problem is that few (or is none? - we have no experience with Russians in UK. ) mellifera colonies have as yet evolved a grooming habit strong enough ever to survive if left completely alone. So all that happens to unassisted colonies at present is that they die. Resistance / behavoral changes are acheived in steps - it needs several successive mutations. So we need to help the colonies who are on the way but not fully there yet. So, beekeepers who have taken the pledge on hard chemicals do still need to encourage colonies to make maximum use of whatever behavoural change they have acheived - which I suggested can be by stimulating grooming by dusting. We can pick out the colonies that get rid of the highest proportion of mites after dusting if we put mite catching boards under mesh floors. Dusting with talcum powder or icing sugar is not a crazy new method - it was one of the first mentioned in UK ministry leaflets in 1996. It is insufficient on its own for effective control ( but would get better if bees develop have a grooming habit and mites are actively helped to lose their grip) so that is why I suggested a second go with spraying lactic acid or sucose esters, and even a third go by removing the first sealed brood after a break in laying. But if dusting is used as the first treatment, we have a chance of picking out the colonies on the way to developing natural resistance, to select for breeding. While we use hard chemicals, we learn nothing. Dusting has dropped out of sight because strips have been so easy to use - I am not being holier than thou, I myself have only used Apistan so far - but resistance is forcing us to relook at all the experience and I intend to at least try dusting next season. Back in 1988, Mobus in The Varroa Handbook wrote: ",,,, the simplest chemicals ( formic, oxalic, lactic) ... resistance is least likely to come about. In one respect we can be certain: varooa is least likely to lose its sticky pads and grow claws with which to cling to bee's hairs. When all else fails, we will have dusts and powders ...fine dusts can probably still help when varooa has become resistant to all other chemicals in use today." Now there may be some responses that say we do not need to go thru a dust testing stage, they really do already have colonies with fully evolved grooming habits - however, previously when someone has claimed that on the list, others have said 'no, the colony died and the nest hole or hive was re-occupied by a swarm'. Let's see this time around - maybe the good news will be that Yoon has a natural survivor. Robin Dartington ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cara &Tom Patterson" To: Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Alone On the Threshold > Dave Green wrote: > > > I can't see how one can lose his soul by having compassion > >on his bees. .... Life is precious. > > I must agree, Consider the Oxalic acid vaporizer as a treatment > protocol. You can easily and quickly make your own with the > instructions provided on this page: > http://www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/oxal.htm > I don't believe in using chemicals on the bees unless it's a matter of > survival. Then the least toxic ones should be used first. I cannot > remember if you are using open bottom hives. If you are then a heavy > smoking with sumac is supposed to knock down the mites too. Get off > the mast and save those bee if you can! > > Tom Patterson, D.C. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:43:16 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Waldemar Galka Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I had an operation about a month ago and, about a week ago, had to switch the location of two two-deep hives (to equalize the colony sizes). How to do it with no help around? I removed all frames, one at a time, and stood them up against a box. And re-assembled them in their new locations. It took about 30 minutes (also inspected some of the frames and looked for the queens to keep them safe). A lot of people have bulging discs in their lumbar section and don't even know it because they don't have symptoms (only an MRI can show the herniation). Then, one day, another heavy lift, and the buldge squeezes the sciotics nerves to the point where you can't walk straight anymore. My advice to anyone who has even slight pain in the back: you do not have to be macho - take it seriously and take it easy. Otherwise, you may not be walking straight when you are 70 years old (w/o an operation :). Waldemar (who thought he was indestructable when he was a teenager ;-) Long Island, NY > Dee told me they > simply pull each frame and shake and brush off the bees. One pulls and > hands them to the other. At first, I thought that would take FOREVER. But, > the Lusby's run around 800 hives, so I decided to try it. To my surprise, I > found it went pretty quickly and I was able to sort the frames into their > various categories at the same time. Actually, it works out to take the > same amount of time and with a lot less work - at least for me. Granted I only run 5 hives, but that's more or less how I've been doing it. Also, I find that if I hold up the frame by one of the ears in one hand, and smack the top of the frame sharply with the heel of my other hand, practically all of the bees fall right off without any brushing at all, and relatively little agitation. Then I hold it by the other ear, smack it again, and the rest of the bees fall off. I then just put the frames into an empty super box on my wheelbarrow to transport them. This goes pretty quick, it takes about 20 seconds per frame. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:18:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers As a person who is not large and not used to heavy lifting, I can tell you about some things that I have learned to get around the huge job of removing and replacing supers weighing up to 80 pounds. One of the best things is another person. Two people can remove a full super without much trouble. If the frames are stuck between the supers, one can tip the super up and the other can pry them loose. Once it's loose, where to put it? If the super is going back on (like when you are working in the brood area in summer), we always set it on a stand. This is made out of old supers. Mine is two deeps and a shallow, nailed together with some long slats. It has an inner cover on the top. The hole makes a nice handle to pick it up with. I always put the hive cover on it, upside down, then the inner cover, then the full supers of honey at a slight angle so they don't go down into the cover. Unless robbing is a problem. Then you want the bottom AND top sealed off with covers. After you work the hive, the supers can be put back on, without having to pick them up off the ground. This stand is especially helpful if you are under-supering -- putting the empties under the full ones -- which we do. It is extra work, but when you remove the honey the full ones are on top! Isis Glass Ann Arbor MI USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:35:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold In-Reply-To: <200309230959.h8N9YSA6005060@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards said: Two points: First, how will you stop these 'dusts' from contaminating your honey. Dust will stick to any honey in open cells and we know that honey is moved from brood chamber to supers. Even icing sugar contains anti-caking agents. As far as I can see, powdered plain sugar would be the least unacceptable dust. ___ A third point: The anti-caking agent is starch. A bee does not have the digestive system to handle starches. They can be deadly to the bee. Our local bulk store has finely powdered dextrose. I have not done any research into using that instead of the more commonly available powdered sugar (with starch). Tom Shippensburg, Pa Service provided by eMypeople.net The Safe E-mail E-mail service without the internet Custom filtering, Anti virus protection, Contact helpdesk@emypeople.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:27:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: A swarm swarms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Can you tell me why a swarm would swarm a second time? Do I still >stand a chance that they will swarm a third time? It is so small, Often small swarms have a virgin queen, and they are skittish. They may not like the accomodations for who knows what reason. I have seen them leave a box more than once. I had some bees that would not stay in the yard that they swarmed from. I felt that they had some urge to get away from the neighborhood they were familiar with. Some small swarms don't have a queen with them at all, and it's just about impossible to get those to stay. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:55:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: Billet EZ-loader In-Reply-To: <200309230400.h8N0iOHm023485@listserv.albany.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've worked with one of these jewels and seen several models. In hilly areas the auto-leveling mechanism is very handy, nearly indispensable. In flatter country the manual leveling model would be fine. The heavy duty models weigh more so you would need a hefty truck and a need, perhaps for moving barrels. These lifts are extremely elegant, designed for the job of beekeeping. It is definitely not a work around or a lift refit from some other use to try & work at beekeeping. They are a bit pricey. However, if you are big enough to hire an extra hand this would more than compensate for a summer of wages. We once loaded 20 hives in less than 10 minutes--spent more time strapping them down. Then as a seriously violent thunderstorm passed through we dropped them off on preset stands in 5 minutes. Hop in the truck & go move boxes with out a donut stop! I was hoping to put a home apiary lift together, but after looking at the cost of hydraulics, factoring the cost of engineering mistakes needed to optimize the performance--the EZ-Loader is very cost effective. I'm too small now but plan on increasing as the kid moves on to high school and am trying to factor in a loader in the future. I've done a fair amount of tree work, using lifts, buckets & loaders. Each has its place where it works best. The EZ-Loader is by far the best bee lift available! IMHO! Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:38:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kind Folks World Wide: I truly am grateful for your postings, all of you, on-and off-list, in particular. Thank you. It was very thoughtful of you to ponder the quagmire I am in. Normally I would respond immediately, but I’ve been a- thinking, chewing the wax. About 95% of you have, so far, opted for pro- life: save the bees at all cost; and the remaining 5%, pro-choice: be true to yourself, and I am being the pregnant one in the middle, sweating. Many of you convinced me in your rationalization, given your respective paradigm. They all make such a fine sense that I rejected many. That the 95% pro-life, with a canned, government-standard, bee science (BS) approach bothers me sleepless that I feel as if someone is pushing drugs to me, having already given me the disease in the first place. Of course, you did not mean any harm personally, yet that singular, unanimous, almost unthinking, quick-fix response reminded me of the DL controversy we are now coming out of: how difficult it is to see something new when 95% of the people baptize the dance theory, *especially* when their livelihood depends on it. I can’t blame that entrenchment inside the box, nevertheless, considering we believe only what we want to, a self- fulfilling prophecy. Remember under the Nazis, 99% of the Germans believed in only one truth and that proved them right big time for a while. Whatever the truth is, however, it often refuses to be monopolized by the majority or by minority for that matter. The new paradigm, for me, is “Feralization of Kept Honey Bees,” not Standardization of Treatment: the current prescription of counting the drops or ether roll and bang with strips. Such thinking helps perpetuate sickly bees; in fact, we have been at it for decades. Ask Bob. The new paradigm has to be toward Feralization. Consider, for instance, Screened Bottom Boards that imitate the wild condition in a cavity, small cells that imitate the feralized cell-size, SMR’s that imitate AHB behavior, and the whole enchilada toward soft-drugs that wants to imitate a natural state as closely as we think we can. Standardization is an anathema, like government regulations. Yesterday I too felt compassionate about the creature under my care and its predicament for which I have been responsible, just as we all probably are. Reflecting both sides, therefore, I blinked and went ahead and sugar- dusted most of the infected yard; I was, again, compelled to do something, from within and without. That’s where I drew my line, though, for I think I too am helping my bees by killing them. What an oxymoron and what a dreadful thought. Upon close inspection, I could not tell if any of the colonies was suffering from any major population loss, especially as they are coming out of a long summer drought into a heavy fall flow: during the fall flow, my bees have never shown as much vigor as they used to in the spring. Capped drone broods are milky white without any sign of mite dots, bees are numerous and cover two deeps and sometimes more. No visible mites on bees, either. Sure, I could be one sorry ass come next spring. My wishful thinking here is the equilibrium, the optimum armistice between the two, the symbiotic harmony the bees and the mites must come to terms with. The girls go about business as usual—so much so that I heavily dusted only three colonies (oldest) frame by frame, and the rest, on each top bars, as the sun was setting. I’ve got two Italian colonies that I treated only once (2000) in the last decade; I was then peer-pressured into CheckMite them, against my better judgment, when I brought my bees down from Stillwater, OK. I was then a new kid on the block, being unfamiliar with the new local particularities. They are doing fine. I have never requeened these two (Alpha and Beta colonies originally from a Georgia breeder). The rest of the yard consists of three-year old colonies and many mite-free July splits on bottle, as most of my early swarm captures have already graduated into another yard in the alfalfa fields; I fed them until they drew about one deep, and then I moved and gave them another deep of foundation, which is about half-filled now; these feral bees are kicking, and they will winter on those two deeps, loaded. (Please recall I annually do my “swarm-chaser,” as meteorologists around here do their “storm-chaser” during the tornado season, and capture seven to fourteen no-man’s-land swarms, my perennial source for restocking winter loss.) When I hollered my water broke yesterday, I must have acted like an alarmist: sitting down on the ground in front of the hive, I had been finger-picking all the dying and the crawling into a jar. Many cannot sting you, being immature and weakened. I then froze them overnight and out of about thirty shriveled bees I found three mites. For all these years I have not seen one mite although my predecessors around my area had seen them and gone belly up. I hear Bob say, it's my turn now. I was shocked, nonetheless, with a sense of denial. Yes. I do have all of my bees on a modified screened bottoms, some no bottom at all, as I recycle one conventional bottom into two SBB’s, and the wire mesh measures only about 16’ x 17’ so my SBB’s are not all the way clear. I made it so to give my bees an ample landing area in front and to cut down draft in the rear [no pun intended]; however, my SBB’s does not allow anything under, such as a sticky board. It sits flush to the hollow rectangular stand. Thinking I will never treat them, I really did not see any benefit of counting mite drops although I do recognize its immense value for others: different strokes for different people. No. I am just moseying along toward sidelining, shooting for one hundred colonies, all never treated; thus, my bread and butter do not come from beekeeping, but honey does, which goes nicely with the two when the dough is piping-hot. Yoon p.s. Robin, looking at your posting hours, you need to get some sleep. No, contrary to what you may think, you are not responsible for running the universe. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:20:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brent Farler Subject: Ezy loader opinions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a simple forklift attachment for my 3 point hitch on the tractor. It will lift a pallet several inches up of the ground and allow transport. I have to secure the hives to the pallet with straps because the attachment works by tilting the pallet forward to achieve ground clearance. This works for on farm handling but isn't practical for moving from yard to yard or loading on a truck. Has anyone ever seen a rear mount forklift attachment for a 3-point tractor hitch that can lift vertically using the PTO for hydraulics? I have seen these as alternatives to a bucket on a front loader but the lifting capacity is low (particularly at truck bed height) and the investment to add a front loader is significant. Hauling the tractor is worse than pulling a loader but the tractor can take terrain that a loader is not suited for. Leveraging my investment in equipment is important and I don't have the scale to justify a loader just for hives. Brent Farler 'If you think those supers are heavy I poured twenty-six 80 pound bags of concrete last Sunday. Made a 50 pound sack of feed feel light but it's Tuesday and I still can't lift anything with my right arm' This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:40:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Anyone using a settling tank instead of a filter system? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A large commercial beekeeper recently said he uses settling tanks, sufficent to hold a days honey harvest, instead of a filter system. He decants the previous day's harvest before begining for the day. All the wax, debris, wings, dead bees etc float to the top. By drawing off the honey on the bottom and not too much near the debis on the top, filtered honey in effect is removed. Anyone had experience with such a nifty idea? I have a 1000 pound settling tank with just a drain hole on the bottom and a tightly sealed cover. Do I simple pump the honey high over the top of the tank and back through the bottom drain hole to get the honey into the tank? And with sufficent valves drain it from the bottom hole also? Help! Need help configuring a settling tank. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:52:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: safely removing heavy supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've had the back surgery, a shoulder surgery and a foot surgery and can not lift heavy weights, either. I have been changing over to the mediums for brood (2 boxes). Even when a medium super is full, it is a bit much, since the arm attached to the shoulder that had surgery is numb! I move the hives frame by frame and take honey off the same way. I just have my wagon with a deep box and an inner cover with duct tape over the bee escape hole, and load the honey into it frame by frame. Luckily, I have a healthy husband to lift from the cart to the honey house or to the van! Improvise! No way will I stop beekeeping! Kathy Cox, Northern California, Italian, 18 hives :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:02:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: A swarm swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/23/2003 3:00:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, murray@DENROSA.DEMON.CO.UK writes: All these weird anomalies do not happen in swarms headed by mated queens, which are simple to handle. Murray and others, thank you for your explanation. I'm new at this and have never caught a fall swarm. When I first found the swarm, it was covered by dancing bees and so I figured I'd better hurry before they take off. I knocked the branch and the bees fell into my bucket. After climbing down the ladder, I put those in the middle of a hive body. All of a sudden the tree bees and many of the bees in the hive swarmed again. I stood in the middle in awe! They must have convinced each other to go back to the box and the tree, because they didn't fly off as I had expected. I brought them home and planned to give them food and brood in the morning, but was very occupied with the birth of chihuahuas. The bees were on their own. Saturday morning I ran out to do errands and at 2pm when I came back, there was a loud buzzing that made me look towards my hives. There was a swarm! I walked with it for 30 yards and it settled in a snowball tree, where I hived it (this time to a nuc, because it was the only equipment I had. I gave it a feeder and it has remained right where I left it. I will open it up today and see what is going on. There were a handful of bees who stayed with the old hive body. I hope to combine them and then put them in my observation hive. Kathy Cox, Northern California, Italian, 18 hives :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:39:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter & All, > Second, it is my understanding that it is very unlikely that varroa will > ever become resistant to substances like thymol or organic acids. > Why not? . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:22:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter & All, Yoon, your not alone out the near the threshold. > you are planning to let your bees die > snip > > I have difficulty with the logic behind that! The survivors will be more resistant than the ones that died. In addition they will not be dumbed down and weakened by the use of dopes. Yoon can get small cell package bees from a chemical free package bee producer just like I did two seasons ago when I started my apiaries on 4.9mm foundations. Yoon still has options if he cares to pursue them. From reading Yoon's past messages on his methods I thought he was on a good path except in my honest opinion he was missing a piece of the puzzle. If he were to pursue his path with the addition of smaller cells I think he would complete his task. Maybe not, but it seems to me this was one method he chose to reject that might have made the difference. Yoon seems to have the determination, just as I do, to not use dopes in the hive and I feel he should stick to his guns and keep pursuing dope free methods. If I may ask you a question Yoon, why did you reject a method of keeping bees dope free without giving the method a good trail. Telling me it was because it had not been proven scientifically isn't good enough, the method you employed wasn't proven scientifically either. Yoon, I stand with you in your desires to keep bees clean and dope free. Keep up the good job you have been doing. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:38:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Beekeeping in densley populated areas In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A1090D1C8C@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a call to ask of "official" beehives in densely populated urban areas. There is a beehive at the Paris Opera House which has been published in the New York Times. There are the beehives that Mayor Daly had installed on the rooftop of Chicago City Hall in May of this year (published in several newspapers). I have heard there are beehives at the Bank of London on Fleet Street in London but have no source other than I remember hearing it. I have talked to Jill Goodman who is fighting to keep her beehive on the roof of her brownstone in New York City. She felt that being able to site specific places with high population densities and beehives might be helpful. Tom Patterson, D.C. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:24:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Peter Edwards" " Robin Dartington said: When all else fails, we will have dusts and powders ...fine dusts can probably still help when varooa has become resistant to all other chemicals in use today." I hope it was clear I was quoting Bernard Mobus, The Varroa Handbook, 1988 - not making my own statement. Peter questioned possible contamination of honey - a good point. MAFF leaflet 1996 includes under 'commonly used biotechnical methods' 'fine powder , normally talcum powder or icing sugar, dusted over all bees but avoiding open brood...harmless to bees' Mobus reviewed all measures being used in 1988. Dusts were then regarded as 'most promising'. France had reported 100% success with powdered glucose - but sugar powders could kill open brood. Pollen substitutes \ powdered pollen were also used - which presumably minimises risks to brood and contamination of honey. The disadvantage of dusts then was the labour involved. But we seem to be entering more laborious times, so I am hoping these dusts are OK in practice - but would very much like to hear from anyone who has been using them, since the Mobus info is a bit old. Mobus did say that simple chemicals such as formic were least likely to generate resistance, as Peter points out, but apparently organisms do develop resistance when a single chemical is applied over a long time. Where dusts are interesting IMHO is that they may be useful in programmes to identify colonies that are on tghe way to developing a grooming habit - whereas using chemicals of any sort surely just ignores those trends? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:31:16 -0600 Reply-To: Mathew Westall Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mathew Westall Subject: Bees in the news! - Colorado Property tax NOW allows beekeeping as ag MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bees in the News! http://www.crdailystar.com/crNews.cfm#2806 It's always been astonishing to me that many property tax agencies ignore beekeeping as an agricultural entity. In the face of estimates that honeybees are responsible for up to 33% of the food on our table. It's like saying we don't exist as farmers. Yet we do exist, do pollinate, do sell honey, do sell beeswax, and DO work the land just as hard as the guy next door with cattle. For those that don't know the story about beekeping and property tax issues: Up to now in Colorado the land you placed your beehives on would NOT qualify for agricultural use unless you had another ag concern. So property owners get taxed at high rates just as if it were land waiting for development, while the land next door with cattle or hay would be taxed at a fraction. Why wouldn't taxing officials acknowledge honeybees as an ag concern? The arguements against include: - "Bees don't graze" - which fools the honeybees while they're 'pretending' to graze on both pollen & nectar; Evidence of course is in our pollen traps and in our supers. - "Bees leave property boundaries and can't be proven to return" - written by someone whom obviously has no idea what the word "colony" means or why we have wooden beehives; -"bees cannot be proven to graze the area they're placed" - (too silly to reply to); Anyone ever see a bee working a flower just outside their beehives? -"bees are not domesticated" - despite many dictionaries & encyclopedias explaining the opposite - that honeybees are the ONLY domesticated insect, the only insect we've changed dramatically from native species to commercially selected varieties - 'trained' to work our frames, our hives, in our manner, with the temperment that we select...fitting the very definition of domestication. -"bees harvest from weeds" - and as do goats, cattle, etc - just as bees work PLANTED clover, Vetch or alfalfa - again, written by someone whom has no idea of the complex use of honeybees in our food supply - both for pollination and harvest. It's obvious from last weeks supreme court decision that taxing officials were jerking property owners around and they got caught. I've been told that this was the first instance of a land-owner taking the issue of bees & property all the way through the Colorado courts. I'm not naive enough to suggest that taxing authorites simply don't know the facts of beekeeping. But it's either give them the benefit of the doubt or suggest that those authorities could care less about beekeepers as an agricultural entity and complete concern over what they could squeeze($) out from property owners with land under beehives. Which would you go for? Perhaps a little of both? At any rate, here in colorado the playing field has been leveled. We're now farmers both when we work and when we get taxed on our property. Matthew Westall - E-Bees- // Earthling Bees >8(())))- "Take me to your feeder" \\ Castle Rock, CO, USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:14:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Bees in the news! - Colorado Property tax NOW allows beekeeping as ag In-Reply-To: <003401c38222$87d1d300$6400a8c0@ecapital83wvji> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 23 Sep 2003 at 16:31, Mathew Westall wrote: > that honeybees are the ONLY domesticated > insect, Umm...the silkworm, Bombyx mori, has been cultured for at least 4,000 years. Otherwise your report gets an A. Thank you. Dave Green, SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.info :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:22:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: The survivors will be more resistant than the ones that died. Dr. Harris & Dr. Harbo of the Baton Rouge Bee lab found that breeding from the above survivors did not produce a bee able to survive varroa. Period! The reason they switched to bringing in the Russian strain and exploring SMR. Keith said: In addition they will not be dumbed down and weakened by the use of dopes. "dumbed down" ????? "weakened by the use of dopes" Get real! Another myth! I'm afraid the beekeeping industry would be history by now along with the Almond,Apple ,cranberry, Blueberry and many other industries without the use of chemicals to control varroa!. If you choose not to use "dopes" as you call chemicals used to control varroa that's ok with me and others but lets look at the big picture. For those wanting to understand the varroa mite I would recommend reading both: "The Varroa handbook" (1988) and "Mites of the Honey Bee"( 2001) Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:42:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brent Farler Subject: comb honey section size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has anyone seen or experimented with comb honey section sizes smaller than those employed by the Ross Round or Hogg Half Comb systems. In the days of basswood sections were there any rules about what the bees would build on or ignore? Ross and Hogg seem to pick 8 oz. as a readily marketable size but are smaller sizes accepted by bees? From searching the archives it seems that whole frames are better accepted by the bees, and round sections more likely to be filled out than square. Brent Farler This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:38:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Anyone using a settling tank instead of a filter system? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick asked: A large commercial beekeeper recently said he uses settling tanks, sufficent to hold a days honey harvest, instead of a filter system. Most of us use settling tanks which helps but the honey is not ready for market unless small bits of wax and the occassional bee leg in jars is ok! . Do I simple pump the honey high over the top of the tank and back through the bottom drain hole to get the honey into the tank? Most of us pump into the top. A double baffle sump really helps cut down on wax in a settling tank. The longer you let the honey settle (and use of heat) the better the system works. I had a friend which used only the method i suggested (with sump )but when I would visit while he was bottling a table full of jars would always be sitting waiting for him to remove specs ,etc. with a spoon! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:17:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Les Roberts Subject: ISBA Journal October In-Reply-To: <200309230400.h8N3qX9A029371@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The ISBA Journal is published by the Indiana State Beekeepers Association, bi-monthly. It is available in pdf format for free download at this address: http://hoosierbuzz.com/document/i0310.pdf Back issues can be found at http://hoosierbuzz.com Rob Green Editor CMW - www.ChristianMusicWeekly.com published weekly for Christian Radio :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:43:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold In-Reply-To: <001301c38242$c407be00$48a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 23 Sep 2003 at 21:22, Bob Harrison wrote: > Keith said: > In addition they will not be dumbed down and weakened by the use of > dopes. > > "dumbed down" ????? > > "weakened by the use of dopes" > > Get real! Another myth! Amen! When acarine mites arrived, I took some pretty heavy hits, because there were some hives that seemed unaffected and I saw the possibility of getting a better bee by breeding the survivors. When varroa arrived, there was a whole order of magnitude less resistance, and failure to treat would have made a quick end of my beekeeping. I'm glad there are some who have other sources of income to support their beekeeping. Maybe they will become "point men" and gain valuable information for all of us. But I do not appreciate the opinionated, self-righteousness tone of many recent posts. I've seen a lot of beekeepers with such a purist religious ferver who are no longer keeping bees at all. I don't wish for the chance to say, "I told ya so." but fully expect the time to come with more of our beekeeper colleagues. Would some of our "purist" colleagues refuse antibiotics or other lifesaving drugs to their own children when they are ill? -Or let them die, rather than be weakend by "dopes?" When I was a child, I contracted pneumonia, and the brand new wonder drug, penicillin was administered to keep me from dying. Followers of the Darwinist religion would say the human race would be better off if I had been left to die. Frankly I don't feel that way at all. I would not feel that way for my children. I would not feel that way for my grandchildren. I would not feel that way for my bees. And I don't feel that way for the people that would be subjected to famine if we let "nature" take its course and allow the majority of our honeybees to die, our beekeepers fail, and our crops lose that much pollination. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.info :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:39:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well said dave:)) I understand the situation. Also trying to survive the mite. Was running around 75 hives. Tried to breed the survivors. Tried new mite resistant bees. Tried time consuming herbal and other means of fighting the mites. Sure glad I wasnt making most of my living from my bee operation. At 40 hives now that would be a hit. Expect to lose more this winter. The cure. I dont know. But sure hope it comes fast. I wont use checkmite. So my options are limited. preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:34:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Last time I treated my bees was in the fall, 2000, three years ago, with CheckMite strips ... many underdeveloped bees with shriveled wings, more than what I used to observe under a normal condition, crawl around the grass in front of the hives. I saw one with a varroa attached on the thorax, a reason why I said I could be over the threshold... It appears you don't know. It looks as if you are guessing. Apparently you have not even bothered to monitor the levels with a simple natural drop test. > Going down with the ship. Bring 'em on. You're not going down with the ship. Your unfortunate bees are. You bought them or captured them, and you are responsible for them, whether you live up to your responsibility or not. Your neglect will impact any neighbouring beekeepers. A beekeeper is just that, one who keeps bees. What do you call someone who just lets them die? allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:46:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: On the Threshold of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, > Dr. Harris & Dr. Harbo of the Baton Rouge Bee lab found that breeding from > the above survivors did not produce a bee able to survive varroa. Period! > The reason they switched to bringing in the Russian strain and exploring > SMR. > But they used dopes in addition where Mr. Yoon has not for many years now. Mr. Yoon's bees are at present clean. I am not sure about his combs but if they are not he can fix this easily. > "dumbed down" ????? > Yes! Agents that affect the nervous system will affect the memory. >> "weakened by the use of dopes" >> > Get real! Another myth! > I am real and this is no myth. If it kills mites it will weaken the honey bee and the queen, they lose vigor and die sooner than normal. Try using these dopes on your self and see how you and your body react. If you have to ware gloves to administer the stuff it tells me it does not belong in a colony of bees. > I'm afraid the beekeeping industry would be history by now along with the > Almond,Apple ,cranberry, Blueberry and many other industries without the use > of chemicals to control varroa!. > Sounds like a lot of gloom and doom along with a fear factor. The statement above is your story but there are other stories that are not as scarry as yours. Stories of success and hope for a failing industry. Where have you been while other beekeepers switched from using dopes to running clean systems? You will tell me that the Lusby's are running African bees but their bees do not act like Africans. Why has their bees not been looked at more closely so their bees can be utilized in the honey bee industry, is it because of fear? If you want the beekeeping industry to succeed we have to get over this fear that you speak of. Operating in fear does not sound to me to be the American way, we need to be free, Free of fear. Varroa mites appear to be having you running your hives scared, and that's to bad. > If you choose not to use "dopes" as you call chemicals used to control > varroa that's ok with me and others but lets look at the big picture. > Yes, lets!! Your focusing on the mite and not the honey bees health as a whole. The big picture is the future not the past. Here is some more good reading for those who care. http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/part13.htm http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~acarolog/beemite.htm http://www.kysu.edu/landgrant/CRS/twebster/newvarroa.pdf http://www.kysu.edu/landgrant/CRS/twebster/varroamite.pdf . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:58:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: comb honey section size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Brent Farler" " In the > days of basswood sections were there any rules about what the bees would > build on or ignore?" This is an interesting new topic - I would love to supply sections on my stall as they look so much more 'natural' than a row of jars and would make peple stop and look. But previous efforts were always disappointing. The problems seemed to be: 1. bees build comb in the centre of a wax-making cluster , deepening the midrib and drawing out both sides in balance. Sections force the bees to draw foundation in only small clusters (there is no room for a big one) and from one side only. The rim of the section makes it more difficult for the small clusters erach side to link up round the bottom. So bees ignore foundation in sections if they have other options. 2. good sections need a strong flow - in UK we get persistent drizzles rather than sudden floods. I have been wondering whther to try Simmins methos of 1887, which was almost a bye-product of his swarm control system. He induced the bees to build new combs at brood level at the front of the hive, and constantly cut out the new comb so that the combs were never complete - that at least delayed swarming. He then filled his sections with bits of fresh FULLY DRAWN comb. Simmins system might let us use very small sections, of any size or shape (why not triangular, to make a small bit look bigger on a stall) which would be filled quicker in our weak flows. The sections might be worked better by the bees if the section sides were thinner - say of stiff waxed cardboard? Does anyone think that could work? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:06:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: On the Threshold of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave & All, > But I do not appreciate the opinionated, self-righteousness tone > of many recent posts. I've seen a lot of beekeepers with such a > purist religious ferver who are no longer keeping bees at all. I don't > wish for the chance to say, "I told ya so." but fully expect the time > to come with more of our beekeeper colleagues. > Ditto, right back at ya Dave! I have some hives that are already three seasons old and still going strong and I increased and made new queens with these. So Dave, when do you expect me to no longer be with you and the rest of our colleagues doing things in a pure religious way? According to the "The Varroa handbook" I should have lost my three season old hives already and this winter I will lose all the rest of the bees I keep. When should I fail and when can I say that I am succeeding with out dopes? > I'm glad there are some who have other sources of income to > support their beekeeping. Maybe they will become "point men" and > gain valuable information for all of us. > It will not work unless someone gets the point. With honey prices up it is a good time to make the necessary changes in an operation to over come the varroa problems by experimenting at least a little bit instead of just talking down on those who are pointing the way. > I would not feel that way for my bees. > And I don't feel that way for the people that would be subjected to > famine if we let "nature" take its course and allow the majority of > our honeybees to die, our beekeepers fail, and our crops lose that > much pollination. > Working on fear will let this happen. Working on courage would not let this happen. There are strains of Apis mellifera that that are resisting the varroa but many beekeepers are falsely fearful of them. Many of our colleagues are fearful of the Lusby's bees but most reports of the behavior of the bees they keep are that they are gentle and not to be feared. When will our colleagues have the courage to keep bees without dopes? Some of our colleagues have taken the course and allowed the majority of the honey bees they keep to die and breed a resistant bee, they have done the courages for us. Fear will keep you from your victory. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:26:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Beekeeping stewardship In-Reply-To: <3F70E8C4.19613.950980@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave wrote: > Would some of our "purist" colleagues refuse antibiotics or other > lifesaving drugs to their own children when they are ill? -Or let > them die, rather than be weakend by "dopes?" Actually, there are some that do and they often end up in court when the children die. Look no further than the current hysteria over vaccinations for children. Dave points out real essence of the argument which is "What do we owe our bees?" I was a dog owner. There is no way that I would treat her less than myself, so she had all sorts of unnatural treatments, such as monthly heart worm pills, flea collars, rabies shots, and the food she was fed came from a bag, not the great outdoors. To do otherwise would make me a poor steward of the life in my care. Research labs developed all the treatments for my dog. I did not let nature take its course. Research labs developed treatments for my bees. If we are going to embark on trying new concepts, there is nothing wrong in researching the idea and trial it in our own yards. Many humans volunteer for experimental surgery or drugs when there is no other course of treatment and there is the possibility of success based on prior research. That is an ethical decision. If we do our homework and limit the number of colonies we are not sacrificing all our bees, an ethical decision. We are stewards of our bees. What makes a good steward? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:29:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: On the Threshold of the Future In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: > If you want the beekeeping industry to succeed we have to > get over this fear that you speak of. Operating in fear does not sound to me > to be the American way, we need to be free, Free of fear. Varroa mites > appear to be having you running your hives scared, and that's to bad. The beekeeping industry is not in fear but is searching for a solution for Varroa. To wait for results on unproven techniques is not fear but rational and pragmatic. To bet the farm on an experiment that has had spotty results is irrational. It is wonderful that you are successful with small cells, but so was I (5.0 not 4.9) for a while. We need more than the data points we have so far to invest a whole industry, especially when there are reports from disinterested testers that have encountered problems. Occasionally this list seems like it should be renamed the Beekeeping Deja vu List. Or the Anecdotal True Believer Beekeeping List. Ah, but there is one already. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:37:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: Re: On the Threshold of the Future In-Reply-To: <200309241353.h8ODhn6k000499@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I have been reading the mite discussion with great interest. It seems everyone wants to be a beekeeper. The question that arises is: How far does one go in assisting nature? When we are sick the solution is not pain free. Whether it consists of surgery, medicine, or dying. While a person may not fear any of these, the purpose is to live. Examining the biological environment of a bee colony, the mites are most commonly found in the drone cells. The theory being drone pheromone attract mites. Has anyone else considered that maybe mites live and reproduce in a drone cell is because of what is missing NOT because of what is there. A hive with above threshold mite loads would be missing the same factor(s) as the drone larvae. My research has not revealed any studies of this factor. But given some time it may be found. Tom Enjoying bees in Shippensburg,Pa Service provided by eMypeople.net The Safe E-mail E-mail service without the internet Custom filtering, Anti virus protection, Contact helpdesk@emypeople.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:24:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: On the Threshold of the Future Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >It is wonderful that you are successful with small cells, but so was I >(5.0 not 4.9) for a while. What happens when you take bees that have been "regressed" to 4.9 small cell foundation and have been on it for some time, and then allow then free rein, like in a top bar hive, to make whatever they want. Do they stay at 4.9 or do they start building something bigger if they are not "forced" to stay at the small cell size? (That is, do they have to be forced to stay at 4.9 or do they stay there once they get there even if you allow them to build whatever they want?) Just curious. What if someone wanted to purchase a package of small cell bees with queen to experiment with. Who would they contact? Are there any sources available? Layne Westover, College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:52:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Are Lusbees Gentle? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Many of our colleagues are fearful of the Lusby's bees but most > reports of the behavior of the bees they keep are that they are > gentle and not to be feared. Well, to set the record straight, I would not describe them as "gentle". Of course, I observed them only over three days, and only observed them in two environments -- Lusbys' home yard, where I photographed Ed and Joe disassembling hives without my having to suit up, and in their out yards where the colonies were not at full strength. We all know that all beekeeping observations tend to have a strong locality component (don't we?), so my observations were limited by those facts. I think the term I used was "no worse than...". They were okay, and comparable to Hawaiian and Australian Italian stock, but not anything like the *really* gentle bees I've worked. Some California caucasians come to mind as amazingly tolerant. I had them 25 years ago, and still recall how tranquil and productive they were. Lusbees were, however -- IMO -- more gentle than some New Zealand Italians I had one year. allen ...Wondering, how is Ed coming along? http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary Time to open the Canada/US border to two-way bee traffic! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:07:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: On the Threshold of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said: > The reason they switched to bringing in the Russian strain and exploring SMR. Keith said: But they used dopes in addition where Mr. Yoon has not for many years now. The USDA bee lab in Baton Rouge has not used chemicals to treat the Russian bees as told to us by Tom R.. Information on both projects is at their web site. Yoon is right on schedule for a varroa infestation with the "leave alone " method. You could be the next to post problems. Will you admit like Yoon & I have to varroa problems in a national forum? Dee did? regardless of my thoughts on small cell I will always have a great deal of respect for Dee & Ed Lusby and their honesty and courage! If you are reading this post Dee. My new neighbor is John Mills . The same John Mills which worked at the bee lab and was a friend of yours. He said to say "Hi". Keith said; Where have you been while other beekeepers switched from using dopes to running clean systems? I have had private round tables with commercial beekeepers in Califronia, Texas & Florida in the last couple years in their states and so far I have not found a single commercial beekeeper using 4.9mm cell size, FGMO or screened bottom boards. I will keep looking and report when I find one. All were very knowledgeable about all the above and freely gave their opinions which would take many emails to relay and I am afraid would upset many on the list which follow the above methods. I will say about half said they would consider using screened bottom boards on their skids aand possibly try 4.9 cell size as an experiment.. Words of wisdom when dealing with varroa from Bob "Never underestimate your opponent!"( meaning varroa) "you can not know the varroa load of a hive without testing!" Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:45:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: On the Threshold of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Layne & All, > (That > is, do they have to be forced to stay at 4.9 or do they stay there > once they get there even if you allow them to build whatever they > want?) > It has been done, below is a URL that will lead you to conclusions of the beekeeper. http://www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/conf.htm http://balder.prohosting.com/~starrier/top%20bar%20hive%20links.html > What if someone wanted to purchase a package of small cell > bees with queen to experiment with. Who would they contact? > Are there any sources available? > http://balder.prohosting.com/~starrier/busyasabee.html . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:08:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold Robin said: > Where dusts are interesting IMHO > is that they may be useful in programmes to identify colonies that are on > tghe way to developing a grooming habit - whereas using chemicals of any > sort surely just ignores those trends? Not sure how dust removal is going to help to identify those colonies - surely most colonies remove any debris that they can carry? It seems logical that using a very high efficiency chemical must reduce the likelihood of bees developing 'resistance' to varroa (or at least increase the timescale) and this is one of the reasons that I chose to use thymol - so that the bees had sub-lethal exposure to the mites. As Marla Spivak said recently, "Leave mites in colonies; do not try to eliminate them all; in some cases bees can sustain 10% to 15% infestation with little harm." This has been my strategy for the past 6 years! We still seem to have an obsession with mite numbers - even though we have been told many times that it is viruses that are actually doing the damage. If we keep varroa numbers low, rather than try to eliminate them completely, colonies will be exposed to low levels of the viruses vectored by varroa. My hope is that those colonies that are highly susceptible to DWV and APV will then die out, leaving more resistant strains. However, I have just finished treatment for this year and after treatment with thymol for three weeks, I had a look at the boards under my screened colonies; the highest mite count was only 22! Perhaps I need to reduce the treatment to encourage more mites! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:39:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold "Keith Malone" asked why I understood that it was unlikely that varroa would develop resistance to thymol and organic acids. I am not a scientist, but I read - do not ask me where! - that pyrethroids have long, complex molecules. Resistance occurs when the the target organism develops an enzyme which is able to split these molecules and render them harmless to it. Substances such as thymol or formic acid have a much simpler structure which cannot be broken down in this way. Perhaps others with more knowledge on the mechanism of resistance would care to comment? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:07:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: On the Threshold of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, > I said: > > The reason they switched to bringing in the Russian strain and exploring > SMR. > > Keith said: > But they used dopes in addition where Mr. Yoon has not for many years now. > > The USDA bee lab in Baton Rouge has not used chemicals to treat the Russian > bees as told to us by Tom R.. Information on both projects is at their web > site. > I was speaking of the bees they used prior to the Russian and SMR strains. > You could be the next to post problems. Will you admit like Yoon & I > have to varroa problems in a national forum? > Yes. On the other hand when I post of my successes, like I did this spring, it will be because of small cell beekeeping methods I now use. You tried to attribute my successes to something else this spring and my reply to your reply never was approved to the list so nobody got to read what my truth was. So just to set it straight, if I am totally successful, it will be because I do things different than is normally done and small cell methods are one of those things. I have lots more than just varroa to over come up here in Alaska to be a true steward of the bees I keep. As anecdotal as it may be if I am successful that is all that really matters to me. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:01:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J" Subject: Thymol Toxicity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, In an earlier post I questioned why the Maine State Apiarist would use the word DANGER when describing Apivar. Well I now know. It is on the package label, however, I still feel this incorrect. I can only imagine what the folks at Brushy Mountain went through to get Section 18 approval from the EPA ,something for which I am truly grateful. Based on my own experiences I would bet it was somewhere close to a root canal without anesthesia. Hazardous materials are required to have product warning and precautionary labeling. This includes statements of hazard (e.g. Toxic, Flammable), precautionary advice (Use with adequate ventilation), first aid, and signal words. The signal words are specific: DANGER, WARNING and CAUTION. The use of these is very prescriptive. DANGER is used for Toxic, Corrosive, Flammable, etc. It is also used for carcinogens and reproductive toxins. In the US a toxic substance is defined as something having an LD50 between 50 and 500 mg/kg. Pure Thymol has an LD50 of 980 mg/kg, almost double the toxic definition cut off. (When using LD50 data the lower the number the more toxic a substance is.) One has to be very careful when assigning hazards due to the downstream effect. The more hazardous a material is the greater the precautions necessary to handle. Fire and building codes use certain data points when establishing requirements for storage and handling. The difference between! a Highly Toxic" and a "Toxic" substance could result in much different requirements and the associated costs. There may be some reasons that I am unaware as to the Danger statement, however overstating the hazard can almost be as bad as understating it. The incident in Maine is a good example of how this can cause confusion. If I had previous knowledge about Thymol and someone told me that coumaphos carries a lower signal word I could wrongly assume that coumaphos is less toxic. I have been involved with hazard communication most of my career. Substance classification is difficult at best given all the different aspects that contribute to the hazard and the regulatory requirements. Twenty years ago Material Safety Data Sheets were written with the assumption that the reader would have a technical background. Ten years ago the push was to use the MSDS for a wider audience and it was recommended that they should be written to a level of understanding of a seventh grade education. In all the years I have be working in this area a few facts have come to light. The one label that is routinely read by the widest audience is the one found on the box of cereal on your breakfast table, and that the only individuals that really read labels are lawyers and regulatory agents. Sorry to belabor this point but maybe it will prompt you to read the label and consider what it is saying. Bee Safe, Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:25:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Reference Needed -Formic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all, Okay, the storm Marty is passing thru with rains here and I am home and thinking and doing badly. Went to reading in old books and wouldn't you know it got into E.F. Phillips 1918 and flipping pages hit upon Formic Acid and have now spent a great part of afternoon trying to find reference now so I can stop thinking about it. Delimma has happened and I know others here on lists have books, so maybe one of you can help! This is what I was reading concerning composition of honey: " In the laboratory inversion is accomplished by the addtion of an acid to the cane sugar solution and there is a small amount of acid in honey. What this acid is has not been determined, it being usually calculated in analyses "as formic acid," which must not be misinterpreted as indicating that the acid actually is formic acid. It indicates merely that in the analysis the acidity is calculated as if the acid were formic acid. It was formerly believed the the poison of the bee sting is formic acid and various fanciful theories have been advanced to explain the origin of the formic acid supposed to be present in honey. The worst of these explanations is that just before sealing the honey, a worker bee puts a drop of poison form the sting into the honey to preserve it. No such action has been observed. Possible these speculation are the basis for the calculation of the acidity of honey by the chemist "as formic." Now upon reading this I went and pulled out my Hive and the Honey Bee by Dadant and read (1992 edition): "Because of its great sweetness, the acidity of honey is not particularly evident to the palate. The acids, however, do contribute to the complex flavor.Years ago it was thought that citric acid predominated, with small amounts of formic, acetic, butyric, malic, and succinic acids (Nelson and Mottern, 1931). More recently it has been found (Stinson et al., 1960) that the predominant acid in honey is gluconic acid, which is derived from dextrose (see glucose oxidase).Other acids identified for the first time in this study were lactic and pyroglutamic. Reflecting the early belief that formic acid was the principal acid, its acidity was for many years reported analytically as "%formic acid."It is now more properly expressed in food regulatoins as "milliequivalents per kilogram honey" or meq/kg. This expression can be converted to the equivalent of any acid by use of the appropriate flactor, for example 1 meq/ke is equivalent to 0.0196% gluconic acid (19.6 mg. per 100 g, or 19.6 mg%)." Now the above by Dadant doesn't help me because I reference above the previous E.F. Phillips information, so I went and pulled out A.I. Root , ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture (1983): All Root says is: "Other acids which have been reported in honey are formic, acetic, butyric, lactic, oxalic, tartaric, maleic, pyroglutamic, pyruvic, a-ketoglutaric and glycollic acids." But acids which have been reported, doesn't say whether reported right or wrong due to now having the E.F.Phillips information. So the question is: What is the REAL REFERENCE for formic acid actually being in honey and By Who for the research and work???????? When done????? Can anyone help???? What book is the information to be found in for beekeepers??? What is the actual level of formic acid in honey if indeed it is to be actually found in honey and not supposed like early on? Regards, Dee A. Lusby Tucson, Arizona http:groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:27:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Alone on the threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/09/03 05:08:04 GMT Daylight Time, Yoon writes: << My wishful thinking here is the equilibrium, the optimum armistice between the two, the symbiotic harmony the bees and the mites must come to terms with. >> In a symbiotic relationship both organisms benefit. It is unlikely that bees and mites will ever achieve this. It is just possible in the long term that the relationship will develop to the stage that the mite is a non-lethal (and thus successful) parasite of the bee. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:25:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Thymol Toxicity Hello Volatile chemicals like formic and thymol can be much more hazardous to the operator than an organo-phosphate like coumaphos. The LD50 attempts to rate all substances on the toxicity if ingested. This is a gross oversimplification at best. No one would be likely to ingest a Checkmite strip, but one could easily inhale fumes from formic or thymol. I have handled all these substances and I regard Checkmite as very safe to the operator (provided nitrile gloves are worn). The others, as well as the old demon Phenol, are risky and should be used with caution and plenty of fresh air. Isis Glass Ann Arbor, MI USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:17:09 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: PRESS COMMUNICATION FOLLOWING BEE LOSSES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Massive bee colony poisoning by Fipronil in SW France - 2002 and 2003 This explanation is most interesting and definitely not the end of the story. And please do not confuse with Imidacloprid(e) Any faults in the translation are unintentional and the translation to be used only as a guide !!! Further information I presume may be obtained from the Gov't Departments and Companies involved. Translation by P. Dillon. from original French language. Unofficial Translation of a Press Communication given by: Ministère de l'Agriculture, de l'Alimentation, de la Pêche et des Affaires Rurales (Ministry of Agriculture, Food, Fisheries and of Rural Affairs) FRANCE Paris, 4th. september 2003 Bee Deaths in Midi-Pyrénées (France) - Inquiry results. In April 2003, a sudden occurrence of honey bee moralities was noticed by the officers of the regional Service for Protection of Vegetation in 7 apiaries in six parishes in the Midi-Pyrénées area of France. The first analytical results based on six samples of bees indicated levels of Fipronil and one of its metabolites varying from 2.1?g/kg to 14.3 ?g/kg. Conclusions were drawn in a report dated 06/05/2003, that suggested if the levels of Fipronil and its metabolites found caused the deaths of the bees - the scenario realising the exposure of the bees to the insecticide must be investigated. The DGA put in place an investigation of "post authorisation" which was carried out during the summer of 2003 - i.e. a study of field conditions in which the products containing the insecticides were employed. This investigated the levels of material released during the use of pneumatic seeders. The trial results and analyses of this investigation are made public today. Examinations undertaken by the "Commission d'étude de la toxicité" indicate that some pneumatic seeders allow for the levels of Fipronil observed in bee deaths following the planting of Sunflower seed in the region of Midi-Pyrénées in April 2003. A specific variety of seed was submitted to an industrial procedure in a factory of Syngenta seeds - it being the origin of the contamination via volatile particles originating from the seeder equipment. The DGL has already notified Syngenta Seeds of its intention to prohibit the procedure and use of lots already treated. This decision has equally been sent to BASF who comercialise Fipronil in France. As well, the French seed coating factories will be before the next season subjected to specific tests to verify the quality of their industrial procedures. It is the first time that a link has been established between a crop of treated seed covered with a phytosanitary product and a massive bee death. These facts indicate the importance attached, not only to the intrinsic characteristics of products at the moment of their authorisation, but to the different methods in which they are employed. Conforming to the engagements of the Ministry the studies will continue and hopefully explain other bee deaths on other types of crop and at other different vegetative stages ...... Press Contact : Stéphane VAXELAIRE (DGAL) - tel : +33 (0)1 49 55 58 39 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:33:16 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Billet EZ-loader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some years back I was thinking of buying the Easyloader. As it turned out, I made a similar model myself instead. The reason for this was that the Billet loader didn't reach far enough for my needs. It reaches twice the width of the truck deck it's mounted on. For a small pickup it would not be enough for me. So I made a model that reach 5 meters and rest lengthways on the truck instead. It doesn't lift so much due to the longer reach but will handle a hive of 75 kg. http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/material/hivelift-nf.htm It's mounted on the pickup in 5 min, so I don't keep it on when not used. And I honestly don't use it very much. Only for moving hives when I'm alone and can't lift them by myself. It's so much faster to manually move hives with 2 persons instead of using the lifter. When I made it I wanted to find out if it would be possible to use it for more than just moving hives. If it would save lifting when taking off honey and requeening etc. But I don't have the time to use it the way I work my bees. From my experience, a big truck is needed to use a loader. And a hive management system adopted to the use of a lifter. Anyone buying this type of lifter is into commercial beekeeping and thus wants the most efficient material and methods to make a living from it. Now I'm talking honey production, pollination is a different thing that I haven't got experience of. Where I am on lat 60 the summer is too short and the loss of time using it will not make sense. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:46:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetngs, again: (Revised Version) “Would some of our ‘purist’ colleagues refuse antibiotics or other lifesaving drugs to their own children when they are ill? -Or let them die, rather than be weakened by ‘dopes’"? First, I believe children and honey bees are two separate animals. Second, for the above analogy to work, I should deliberately expose my children to disease, a la Spartan, to see which one survives, for I believe it was a beekeeper’s deliberate attempt to import, to *maximize his profit*, an infected foreign stock, thus opening the Pandora’s Box, unawares. Third, though not a “purist,” I feel uncomfortable with the notion that one species should play God, determining which other species should live or die. I too abhor any other species standing in the way of my beekeeping: AFB, EFB, mites, ants, spiders, beetles, other bees, dragonflies, martins, woodpeckers, possums, skunks, snakes, neighbors, alfalfa growers that bale too early, and other beekeepers in the area who must compete against me, or worse, breed mites inadvertently, like I do. Isn’t this speciel [species] prejudice, though? Aren’t they all “God’s creation” as well? Why are the mites here in the first place? (They are everywhere in similar forms. In fact, one of the best strategies in life is being parasitic: mites, honeybees, beekeepers, politicians, government employees, HGMO, and lawyers, to name a few) To press on, who gave us the right to kill one species over the other? The extinct Dodo bird comes to my mind. To be fair to others in the chemical camp, though, if we are really living in a world where bees can no longer exist on their own, what kind of legacy are we passing onto our children and their children? We all abhor aerial spray, yet insist on using strips. Why the double standard? Why is one instance of using chemicals okay while another instance is not? The cotton grower, too, is trying to make his cottn’ pick’n living. My not treating bees will not affect any other beekeepers in the vicinity: 1) There are already more feral bees in the south and even more further in Deep South than a northern beekeeper can possibly imagine and their swarms are increasing each year, 2) Feral bees are doing fine without anyone bothering to check mites drops on them. Why? By our industry standard they all should have perished a long time ago, 3) Moving bees around the continent has spread more disease than, say, a possible local infection: consider the hive beetles now, 4) We all agree that a complete mite removal is impossible, after all, and finally 5) A beekeeper weakens his bees by constantly insulating bees with medications, making sickly bees, thriving within a bubble, thus impacting his neighbor when it pops. As Bob points out, he has yet to find any commercial operator using a SBB, among others, for example. That drug regiment has not changed at all for a century, hence killing my bees in the long run. Nobody has done any sustained study on non-treatment. If anyone is listening, I would like to suggest the following: capture feral swarms, give them empty frames with no foundation [small cell, finally], leave’em alone. If they die, do it again. Yoon Wish Jim were here. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:37:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: On the Threshold of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > What happens when you take bees that have been "regressed" > to 4.9 small cell foundation and have been on it for some time, and > then allow then free rein, like in a top bar hive, to make whatever > they want. Do they stay at 4.9 or do they start building something > bigger if they are not "forced" to stay at the small cell size? > > Layne Westover, College Station, Texas > I built and started some TBH's this year, and had mixed results. The hives accomodate 28 bars. I started with standard foundation/5-frame nucs, and let them build on top bars from there. I did not use small cell foundation to start, although I will try next year. I have compared them somewhat anecdotally with identical nucs started in Langstroths. In all, I doubt they would adapt well to any large scale commercial operation aimed at production. I have yet to do a final harvest and inspection, but here are several observations thus far: 1) MUCH higher drone population than equivalent Langstroth, with (obviously) fairly large numbers of drone cells, which later become honey cells. I have seen no observable difference in cell size compared to my Langstroths. I will do some more accurate measurements after harvest. Without the foundation to control cell size, there is a LOT more variance in cell size across a given comb. 2) Considerably smaller final (peak) colony size, presumably due to slower expansion of brood nest (difficult to manipulate/expand), and higher proportion of drones. 3) Although comb building and honey storage seemed accelerated in Jun-July compared to Langstroths, they were somewhat outpaced in the later parts of the summer. Again, I suspect this is partly due to smaller brood nest. 4) Once the bees draw out about 15 "frames", they seem to idle somewhat. They don't seem willing to work too far back from an entrance horizontally. 5) The comb building process is easily disturbed in a horizontal arrangement. The bees seem "perturbed" by the introduction of comb "out of sequence". This makes swapping combs/combining less advantageous. 6) They can sometimes be difficult to keep comb building parallel - cross comb can be a real pain in the neck, since you have to cut it all apart just to move top bars and gain access. 7) Definitely lower production, but that can probably be mitigated by improved strategies. 8) Considerably more time consuming to work than a Langstroth. 9) They seem less prone to swarming. Once again, I think this is due to a naturally smaller brood chamber. 10) They would make excellent drone hives for mating purposes. 11) Probably the best motive - VERY cheap to build. Mine cost around $15 each, complete. 12) Since the hive is entirely self contained, they're MUCH easier to move than a Langstroth, as long as they're not full. It would be easy to build provisions for handles for easy transport. 13) Disadvantage - they need supports. You can't just set them on the ground or a pallet, unless you want to lay on your belly to work your hives. That would be an interesting sight. I will continue to experiment with TBH's next year, since they are quite interesting. I'll take some photos soon and make available to the list soon. If you don't care about occasional cross comb (just cut it out to harvest), they would make an excellent choice for leave-alone hives for pollination, or remote locations. You could build them smaller just for that purpose. Once they're up and running, you don't have to keep checking them to see if they need a super. Give 'em room, and let 'em go. Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Robert J. Cessac" Subject: Lady in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can some one in California help this lady. Thanks Bob in Missouri I have three honey bee hives in my backyard in Long Beach, California. Do you know of any beekeepers in this area who would like to rescue them. I live in a neighborhood with many children and the bees need to go. Thank you, Donna Whitaker WhitakerD@alltradetools.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:00:01 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Imidaclopride - developments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As previously stated - even though little is heard about the on going saga surrounding the molecule Imidacloprid(e) and honey bee colony losses, behind the scenes and in several countries, much activity is still taking place. For those who wish and are able to read and understand the French language - please visit: http://www.apiservices.com/_menus_fr/index.htm Click on to: "Les Pesticides Gaucho (Imidaclopride) et Régent (Fipronil) sur la selette" A title list of recent developments and previous meetings between various organisations is displayed. Each may be openned for indepth details. There is little use in opening up the English part to this mega site for the latest developments - the files have not been translated in to English! Bon lecture! Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:48:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: The Voice In The Center MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Being, myself, the sort that often winds up in heated, fact-based = opinion discussions, I'd like to briefly occupy some space that's = unfamiliar to me - in the center of an argument. =20 The recent, somewhat rancorous debate over Yoon's decision to treat/not = treat (and I'd like to point out that it IS his decision) is fairly = typical of this sort of discussion. In an effort to be constructive, = I'd like to offer a few points worth considering: 1) This highly polarized issue seems to be batted back and forth = primarily between two distinct camps - Pros, and Sideliners/Hobbyists. = For obvious reasons, these two paradigms sometimes collide. Niether = side is necessarily right or wrong - just different worlds, different = motives, different risks, different rewards. 2) Many skilled breeders and highly scientific minds are at work on = this problem. It is, however, NOT a foregone conclusion that the final = answer will come from those camps. As with any major problem, the more = eyes and minds on the problem, the more likely it will be solved. As a = general point of order, a great many major scientific breakthroughs come = as a surprise, from an area unexpected source. 3) If noone was willing to take the risk and run chemical free, then no = one could possibly know whether it was possible or not - period. This = harkens back to the breeding issue. The only way you can really know if = a given strain is actually resistant, is, to some degree, to let it = happen. There is a brave breeder in Vermont - Kirk Webster, who is = walking this path right now. To date, I don't believe he's had much = repeatable success beyond increased acarine/varroa resistance (please = correct me if I'm mistaken), but that doesn't mean the implausable = (truly resistant A.M.) won't happen. 4) I think the list, in general, should take a deep breath, step back, = and consider how much stress you are all creating in each other = (especially in the DL debacle). Have we forgotten what we all have in = common - a love of bees, and a quest for understanding? 5) As my mother used to tell me...You won't know for sure until you = try. Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:05:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Moody Subject: to treat or not to treat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been following some of the arguments on to treat or not to treat. = I agree that a lot of polarization in the issue hinges on wether you are = a hobbiest or commercial beekeeper. I applaud those purists that have the time and resources to experiment = with their hives. I wish them the best of luck and hope that they have = carefully thought out their procedures and methods. I do not have the luxury of toying with my bees. I am currently back in = university and can not afford to lose the income from my bees. I = understand that most chemicals have a limited lifetime as the pests they = target become adapted to withstand them, but I do not have the resources = to experiment and can only hope that somebody else will come up with a = solution. I do what I must to ensure a good honey crop. I find it appalling the amount of chemicals required to keep my bees = alive through the winter. Fumagilin B, Oxytet, Formic Acid and Apistan. = We tried menthol for some years, but switched to Formic after some bad = winters. We only started with Apistan last year after a 30% mortality = rate, 80% in one yard. This year we decided that we would not wait for = a resistant strain of mites to decimate our hives and are treating with = Checkmite. The combination of Apistan, Formic and Checkmite will = hopefully break any chance the mites have of adapting to one chemical. I would like to reduce my reliance on all of these chemicals, but only = when my livelihood no longer relies on the bees. Until then, I will do = all that I have to to keep them alive and healthy. It's not a hobby for = me, its a living. Peter Moody Edmonton, Alberta :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:00:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: On the Threshold of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Todd" 1 "Once the bees draw out about 15 "frames" [in a top-bar hive] , they seem to idle somewhat. They don't seem willing to work too far back from an entrance horizontally" 2 "Once they're up and running, you don't have to keep checking them to see if > they need a super. Give 'em room, and let 'em go." Statement 1 is consistent with other observations over the years - I have used 21 frame hives for over 25 years. Unfortunately, it means Statement 2 is too simple - yes, left alone the bees go - over the hedge! They consider the nest 'complete' when it reaches 15 frames backwards from the entrance - and swarm. You do have to manipulate continuously, moving full frames to the rear and bringing up empty frames - even then you have to artificially divide the colony for swarm control. It all becomes easier if the hive is not too long - which is why I use 21 deep frames covered by one level of 20 super frames. Then it is much easier and less laborious to work than a standard tiered hive. The shorter length also reduces problems of wild comb building - combs get more 'free-form' the further they are from the brood. Robin Dartington. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:35:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Peter Edwards" "Substances such as thymol or formic acid have a > much simpler structure which cannot be broken down" The most commonly quoted mechanism is if say the simple chemical penetrates the cuticle, a mite evolves a thicker cuticle which gives it an advantage and its offspring become dominant - unkless the mutaion also reduces say reproduction, when it may not . But I am not a scientist either. Is Max Watkins in the house? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:26:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: On the Threshold of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have some hives that are already three seasons old and still going > strong and I increased and made new queens with these...According > to the "The Varroa handbook" I should have lost my three season > old hives already and this winter I will lose all the rest of the bees I > keep. That's interesting. To those who followed my 'toolbox hive', the swarm in an old toolbox that was given to me two springs ago, I must say that it finally died. When I left I July, the colony had been looking okay, as far as I could tell, since I could not open it, inspect it, or even do a mite drop. After all, it was just an old wooden toolbox with comb hanging from the lid, full of bees. When I came back from the summer's travels, however, there were no longer bees coming and going from the crack in its top. A post mortem inspection seemed to indicate that the queen failed. There was just empty comb. Maybe, just maybe, the varroa got away on them. I couldn't see any signs of that, though, and before I left on vacation, I saw no varroa riding on bees or deformed wings, even though I looked often. Anyhow, the point is this: the colony lived through three winters and three summers without wrapping, medicating, feeding, or any mite treatment, and if it died of varroa, I'd be surprised. I mention this because it just goes to show that we cannot predict with certainty that hives will die of varroa, if left untreated, nor can we be sure, if they do not die, that they are somehow resistant to varroa. I don''t attribute any special qualities to the bees in that hive. At one point, I wondered if they had a small cell comb, so I sneaked a bit out and measured it. I thought I saw some cells that were smaller than 5.2, but when I measured the other day, all cells were 5.2, bang on. I'll have to cut out more of the comb and check some more. Anyhow, I don't think those bees were special. I just think that a number of factors combined to spare them death from varroa. Call it luck. Why did they live so long? Well, for one thing, last year we had a serious drought, and drought is very hard on varroa. That fact is one reason that some people discount Lusbys' success with 4.9. These people say that Tucson is dry. That dryness did not stop varroa from wiping out Lusbys' previous bees on larger comb. But I digress... The toolbox hive also swarmed last year, and swarming apparently limits varroa. At any rate, I don't know. Maybe it did die from varroa. I was away. This was just one feral hive I kept around, just to watch bees being themselves. Having said all that, however, I always monitored all my managed hives carefully for varroa, using sugar shakes and natural drops, and, as I have previously reported, once we stopped fall treatment, and began using a single Apistan in early Spring, we seldom found more than a mite or three on a drop board in fall. I don't think I ever lost even one hive, out of thousands, to varroa. Varroa just did not do what was expected in my operation. There is a lot we don't understand about bees and about mites. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:31:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Peter Edwards" "Not sure how dust removal is going to help to identify those colonies - surely most colonies remove any debris that they can carry?" This is a key question. In getting interested in dusts, I am assuming: 1 One (out of several possibilities) way bees acheive a sustainable balance with varroa is to evolve to recognising varroa as an enemy and groom them off fellow bees. At present, film studies show bees irritated by mites on their backs but only ineffectively wiping them with their own legs. Bees can bite varroa other bees but do not do this consistently (or do Russians?). 2 Dusting could encourage bees to use whatever degree of grooming habit they have , to the full. Bees certainly clean up other bees that are sticky , I am hoping they will clean up dusty companions - but I do not know this happens and have been fishing on this list for responses. 3 If they do clean companions of dust, bees will at least inadvertently knock into mites on bees' backs. The dusts stop a mite getting a new grip when dislodged, as they rely on sticky pads on their feet. So grooming dusts could be effective in increasing the fall of live mites, out thru bottom screens. Monitoring the fall should let us pick out the colonies that have advanced most towards effective grooming - which we could breed from. Those colonies will still need help with biotechnical methods or chemicals to fully reduce their mites , until they have evolved further to effective grooming - so dusts would be the first teatment followed after a few days by another method. Am I on the right track? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:10:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: On the Threshold of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" "I have not found a single commercial beekeeper using 4.9mm cell size, FGMO or > screened bottom boards" Small cell is understandable as it means changing frames. FGMO means extra work fogging weekly. But screened bottoms is a simple one-off alteration to equipment that provides the beekeeper with inportant information on the degree of infestation, and som points to colonies making progress towards a natural balance - and in particular allows the odd case of re-invasion to be caught before the abnormally high level of infestation spreads. So that is much more difficult to understand. 'The Varroa Handbook' documents the early response of commercial beekeepers to discovery of varroa - 'just give us a quick fix so we can carry on as usual'. The chemical culture followed. Have commercial beekeepers still not learned how important it is to find a really long-term sustainable way to acheive a balance between bee and pest? The planet is some 4,500,000,000 years old; modern humans are perhaps 50,000 years old; varroa have been with us for only 20 or less years (during which the quick fix has contaminated bee stocks, wax and whatever), the planet has some further 4,500,000,000 to go before being engulfed by the sun - how much longer do commercial beekeepers expect to just go on with chemical treatments and no monitoring of levels of infestation in order to start selecting the more resistant stocks? Another 10 to 20 years (enough to see them out perhaps)? Another 100 years? Another 500,000 years? Even to the end of time for Planet Earth, 4,500,000,000 years? Or do they plan to change - but not today? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:45:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: On the Threshold of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bill Truesdell" "Occasionally this list seems like it should be renamed the Beekeeping > Deja vu List." No, that's a bad line to take. For reasons: 1 Knowledge is a rolling wave - newcomers (by definition, uninformed) join beekeeping and are picked up and enlightened as the wave reaches them, then they settle back as part of the great comunity of effective beekeepers. If the knowledgable then carp or sneer at the learners, they destroy the fun - people learn if they are encourged to feel they are contributing - they become dull if put down. The worst thing a teacher can say is: Oh, not THAT question AGAIN! 2 New knowledge is obtained only thru experiments. If a select few are encouraged to experiment the overall cost to beekeeping (if they fail) is very small in comparison to the potential benefit (if they succeed) thru dissemination of new information via this list. Running some colonies on small cell will do no damage to others - so should be encouraged in every way. 3 New knowledge often comes as a spin-off even if the main purpose fails. So manned space travel has proved a waste of money but we got teflon. Small-cell may not be a whole answer but we may learn more of the varroa-bee relationship. So IMHO we should always encourage responsible trials - and be interested in the results - even if it is ONLY THAT AGAIN! Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:06:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Varroa mites are gone! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I finished harvesting and have not seen a single mite! I live in Saratoga County of New York State and have decided not to treat for Varroa this fall as a result. Anyone else with similiar findings? Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:44:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold In-Reply-To: <200309250046.h8P0kp6K021577@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 24 Sep 2003 at 20:46, yoonytoons wrote: > Nobody has done any > sustained study on non-treatment. If anyone is listening, I would like > to > suggest the following: capture feral swarms, give them empty frames with > no foundation [small cell, finally], leave’em alone. If they die, do it > again. I've been doing this for about 10 years. I have captured four or five each year, (10 of them four years ago), and do not treat them in any way. This is only for swarms that I believe have been feral for quite awhile, not for those I know come from kept bees. Right now I have one colony that is 3 years old and still going strong. I captured a swarm it cast in the spring and it died during the summer. Also dying during the summer was a four-year old colony that had given me very high hopes, and a three year old one in a section of hollow tree. I brought in another hollow log section this spring with a very strong, but nice and gentle colony in it, that was removed from a yard at least 4 miles from any kept bees. Unfortunately they died in about six weeks. Fortunately the log gum "captured" a swarm, most likely from one of the other feral colonies, but it was a very late one and I do not think they have much chance for winter. I suppose I could feed them, but that would be at risk of offending some purist who would maintain that sugar hurts bees. Should I? I'm also monitoring a couple of "wild" colonies. One has apparently lasted four years. The bees not only have to deal with varroa, but also hive beetles, so this becomes more complex. As you say, there are quite a few feral colonies here. Directly along the coast, which I consider a starvation and poison zone, I cannot always find honeybees on appropriate flowers. But if you come inland ten to fifteen miles, there is a zone that starts and continues up to the sandhills where there are always a few honeybees, no matter where you look. In the sandhills, piedmont and mountains. I've seen areas where you cannot find a single honeybee, despite finding the ideal flowers that should be foraged. Goldenrod is now about to bloom in the South. If there are any honeybees in the area, they can be found on goldenrod. I encourage everyone to monitor the bees, especially when out of your own colonies' range, to see if there are feral colonies. They might also be unknown kept bees, but beekeepers tend to know where other beekeepers are. I have been accused of being fearful and fearmongering. I have examined my heart and, frankly, do not find fear to be a driving force. I think my approach of taking the best conventional care of the bulk of my bees, along with experimenting with a few, is driven more by common sense. I'd also like to point out that upper latitude beekeeping is unique, and something that works there may not translate well into Southern USA. I can appreciate the increased difficulty of keeping bees in a harsh climate, but that may well also give some advantages. The varroa mite seems to originally come from an area of the world with mild climate, and may well have its own difficulties dealing with cold. I have lived and gardened in Southern and Northern USA and also in-between. It's interesting to me that, while some of the weeds and pests are the same, others are unique, and still others may be a plague in one place and barely putting in an appearance in the other. That third group intrigues me. What controls a weed, in one spot and not another? I expected the South to generally have more weed and pest problems, but if you asked me that now, I'd hesitate. It's a trade off; each region is unique, and I can no longer make blanket statements about any region until I've been there long enough to learn about it. Further, with gardening, and with beekeeping, I can't find room for arrogant insistance that my methods will work for everyone in every time and place. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:02:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Varroa mites are gone! Hey, Rick I'm toying with the idea myself. I went through about 20 hives this week getting them ready for my Check-mite treatment. Most of my hives don't have queen excluders and the brood is all over the place, so I put the brood back in the two brood chambers while the nights are still warm. But even with breaking open drone cells I only saw one or two mites. The big flow will be over around here in about 6 months, so I'm wondering whether to treat or not. I'm a little worried that even a small mite load will be bad, though, as I still struggle with a small amount of Foul Brood, and I don't want to go through that all over again, what with secondary infections that come with mites. I'd be interested in what others have to say. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:53:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Docteur André Simoneau Subject: formic acid in food MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: "What is the REAL REFERENCE for formic acid actually being in honey and By Who for the research and work???????? When done????? Can anyone help???? What book is the information to be found in for beekeepers??? What is the actual level of formic acid in honey if indeed it is to be actually found in honey and not supposed like early on?" Dee, Here are a few links concerning formic acid use in food and accepted daily intake which are very far from any quantity a normal person can ingurgitate either thru honey or fruit juices. As far as the dosage found in honey, you can refer to studies made by Anton Imdorf in Switzerland (Liebefeld center). Dr Imdorf found a natural presence of 85 mg/kg and after a spring treatment with formic acid, the concentration rose to close to 300 mg/kg which is quite far from the maximum daily intake as suggested by WHO. http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v05je09.htm http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v38aje03.htm http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jeceval/jec_575.htm http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v44aje11.htm http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/FormicAcid.html Greetings Docteur André Simoneau Médecin vétérinaire régional Montréal-Laval-Lanaudière MAPAQ-CQIASA Laboratoire de pathologie animale 867, boulevard L'Ange-Gardien L'Assomption, Québec Canada J5W 4M9 Téléphone: 450-589-5745 poste 275 Télécopie: 450-589-0648 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:52:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: comb honey section size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A near-perfect Ross Round will weigh 9 ounces. We chose 8 ounces for the label to be conservative and to allow for customers to sell sections with 'several' open cells. (I personally classify a section as a 'second' if there are more than 20 open cells, front and back combined, regardless of whether the section weighs 8 ounces.) If I had the opportunity to do it over, I would drop the weight from the label as in most parts of the US comb honey may be sold without a weight designation, and because sometimes a 'perfect' (no open cells) section will weigh between 7.5 and 8.0 ounces.) I believe the Hogg section is 12 ounces, when near-perfect. For many years there were 4 and 6 ounce square sections available in the US. These were made in Mexico, and were quite popular to sell in the touristy areas. But like all square sections, they were tough to get filled and stopped being available about 15 years ago. Most cut-comb in the US is sold as either 12 or 16 ounces, but some cut it to 6 ounces and it sells real well. However, it is very expensive as the box to contain it costs about the same, regardless of the size. There is no question that bees prefer round and whole frames to square or rectangle shapes of less than an entire frame. I think that serious comb honey producers would generally question whether bees accept whole frames better than round sections. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:38:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: Varroa mites are gone! In-Reply-To: <27.48412ebc.2ca43436@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Rick Green wrote: > I finished harvesting and have not seen a single mite! I live in Saratoga > County of New York State and have decided not to treat for Varroa this fall as a > result. Anyone else with similiar findings? > I don't know, I hardly ever actually see mites in the hive, and only once have I found mites on drone brood, and I tried the sugar-roll test a couple of times without finding mites, and the natural mite drop I got onto sticky boards this summer was in the 0-2 per week range, BUT: When I put in Apistan strips this fall, I got mite drops of up to 1000 per week for each hive. I wouldn't be too confident about whether or not mites were present in significant quantities, and I've kind of come to the conclusion that by the time I see *any* mites, the infestation is already dangerously high. I'd advise caution. Maybe leave a few hives untreated, and monitor carefully to see how they do, but don't go for a wholesale committment not to treat this fall until you are *sure* they are OK. Unless, of course, you've decided to flip a coin as to whether you want to still be keeping bees next year. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:34:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold In-Reply-To: <3F72B91A.9788.3C57C1@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave wrote: > I've been doing this for about 10 years. I have captured four or > five each year, (10 of them four years ago), and do not treat them > in any way. This is only for swarms that I believe have been feral > for quite awhile, not for those I know come from kept bees. Dave, these questions are not directly toward you but for all to respond to. I know that you are conducting a low level experiment, something I often do. 1. What about maintaining the "purity" of the feral colonies? I would think that they are casting swarms in a four year period and have new, mated queens. 2. Unless the colonies are isolated from other drone mating areas, I would think that not much is being learned, but if there is resistance, transference might work both ways if all colonies (managed and feral) are open mated. 3. If not, then only the "feral" bees resistance is diluted by bringing in AI or store bought queens. This whole issue is a lot more complex than we would like. Unless feral colonies are totally isolated and varroa introduced, a lot can be assumed but not much learned. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:15:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: On the Threshold of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Layne and Everyone, >What happens when you take bees that have been "regressed"to 4.9 small cell foundation and have been on >it for some time, and then allow then free rein, like in a top bar hive, I've done it. Check it out at: www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/obs2.htm The measurements are towards the bottom of the page. Overall, about 20% of the comb is small cell, 20% is drone and the remainder is large cell. Specifically, comb in the core broodnest area is about 40% small cell with larger cell size toward the top and periphera of the core area. Drone comb is toward the exterior of the broodnest. Small cell comb is only drawn in the core of the broodnest. Small cell foundation place outside that area is reworked to a larger size. Large cell size foundation is readily accepted just about anywhere in the hive. A behavior that probably wasn't overlooked by the foundation industry. It's interesting to note that the bees raised on small cell comb drew out the larger cell sizes. The bees raised in these larger cell sizes then constructed the small cell comb about 6 weeks later. Check out my conclusions at: www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/conc.htm They're a little different than many would expect from much of what is debated about small cell. It seems that bees are quite able to construct the worker cell size they need just where they want it. It's not surprising since they can constuct a full range of cell sizes from queen to much smaller than a worker size where ever they choose. The broodnest has a definate structure and the bees are able to determine just what size goes where. It's interesting to think about because each cell is constructed by many individual bees, yet somehow, they can independantly determine just what cell size is needed. If they couldn't, no coherent structure could be built as each bee does just a small part of the job. I've run small cell hives and reported the results here at bee-l. The bees can handle the mites quite effectively with small cell comb but it appears the a range of cell size is ideal. I have placed these same bees from the top bar hive into a large cell hive in August. Next season they will go back into the top bar hive again. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:31:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Are Lusbees Gentle? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen, I had a brief visit at the Lusbys. They keep a couple dozen hives in their home yard in Tucson, with no apparent problems. I brought a couple of nucs back to Wyoming. One was typical of the kind of bee you would find in a commercial beeyard. The other was on the hotter side of average. Not something I would want in my backyard but ok on the farm. The hotter hive could not be touched or bumped without smoke. With smoke it was easily controlled. Without smoke it would become vicious and would attack birds flying overhead if lightly disturbed. For that reason it meet it's demise. Their temperament was very much like the Russian hives I've worked. Except they didn't head but as much. Two hives and a short visit isn't much of a test. I figure out of the same batch of queens about 10% will be hotter than I would like and about the same will be very gentle with the rest average. So, I could have got an extreme case. But it's my two cents worth. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:40:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brent Farler Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit With a queen population size of 40 your probably going to lose. If you are trying for natural selection (no creationism flames please, I am entitled to my opinions) to emerge you will need a sufficient population size to select out survival traits. Applying interventions reshuffles the selection deck unless you move the treated colonies sufficiently far enough away that their drones won't interfere with your promising colonies. You can requeen them later out of the selected stock to bring them back into your population sample. Besides population size the frequency of queen turnover is the second element of selection. With small populations of 40-75 (it's the number of queens in your mating area not bees that determines your population size) it is hard to survive where there is the 96% mortality suggest by the Lusby's experience. The slow progression of mites can mean a wait of a year or two for superior traits to become visible. In addition, unless you artificially inseminate your queens offspring will come from a dozen or more drones reducing the chances to less than 8%-10% the traits will be in the new queens you raise. This puts your overall chances at less than 1/2 a percent of success. With 40 colonies you would have a .2% chance of success. Moreover, resistance to mites and diseases is a complex interaction of multiple traits that may or may not express themselves consistently. Treating your hives is a decision you have to make based on health, belief of the relative safety / danger of treatment, your markets beliefs in the relative safety / danger, and your personal financial ability to withstand repeated colony failures. You could try requeening from more resistant stock but just letting the colonies go you are up against pretty significant odds. People who are successfully battling mites and disease are employing multiple methods - environment, brood comb size, diet, hive structure (drone comb ratio) etc. So don't limit your efforts to any one solution (like chemicals). Brent Farler Besides Sucrose Octenate will eliminate all your problems next year.:>) This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:03:13 +0100 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Subject: Mite resistance In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone posed the question about mite resistance: I believe the varroa mite IS less likely to develop resistance to formic acid or thymol in comparison to pyrethroids (Apistan, Bayvarol etc), organophosphates (Checkmite, Perizin) or amidines (amitraz - Apivar) but I don't think it's to do with different levels of efficacy against the varroa mite. Many essential oil/organic acid treatments have given very high efficacy, often as good as or higher than Apistan or Checkmite (before resistance). The three classes of pesticide listed in common use as varroa treatments have very specific modes of action, the different pesticide classes working on separate, precise processes during neuronal transmission in the mite. Thickening of the cuticle is one mode of resistance to a pesticide but it is very much a secondary method of resistance (common in flies for example). The primary modes of resistance in insects and mites are detoxification of the substance and modification of the site of action of that substance. If the selection pressure, in the form of a pesticide has one specific site of action, and the selection pressure is intense (eg same pesticide applied over many generations) a population of insects/mites may develop a method to block that substance or detoxify it within a (relatively) short space of time. That resultant population would be called resistant. Thymol and I believe formic acid too, are not specific in their mode of action. Thymol is a protein denaturant (it is believed to break down cell walls and disrupt general cellular processes. It would appear to be more difficult for a target pest to develop resistance to such wide-acting substances. The development of resistant populations also usually coincides with extensive use of the one chemical class. Essential oils and organic acids have been used successfully for quite a while in Europe but have not yet taken over the world as varroa treatments. Even as they do become more popular and necessary I don't see resistance looming. I hope not anyway; I'm trying to sell Apiguard here. It would be a little frustrating, after 8 years of product R&D and registration to now find varroa resistance to thymol. All I can say is that when I started the development of Apiguard in Italy back in 1993/4 pyrethroid resistant mites were being decimated in the Apiguard trials. Today, Apiguard in Italy, for example, is having exactly the same effect with no sign of resistance. Let's hope the theory holds. Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke Hampshire RG21 7NE UK Tel.: +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax: +44 (0) 1256 473179 e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com web: http://www.vita-europe.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:54:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: formic acid in food In-Reply-To: <59C4FA4389E5D411AFE00002A51B9D893281DF@LASS1-NTCOUP1.mapaq.gouv.qc.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All: Docteur André Simoneau wrote: As far as the dosage found in honey, you can refer to studies made by Anton Imdorf in Switzerland (Liebefeld center). Dr Imdorf found a natural presence of 85 mg/kg and after a spring treatment with formic acid, the concentration rose to close to 300 mg/kg which is quite far from the maximum daily intake as suggested by WHO. Reply: This if good to know, but now brings to mind some questions: Had the combs in the hives tested ever been treated before? Does the natural presence of formic acid vary by floral source or region? At what rate does the concentration dissipate back to normal levels? Do residues build up over time? For how long is the honey unsafe by WHO standards following treatment(s)? Are there any accompanying factors that should be considered here in treatments? Say other substances that are bad or out of place in residue levels for human consumption also? Regards, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper http:groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:10:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: formic acid in food MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: >For how long is the honey unsafe by WHO standards following >treatment(s)? > WHO does not say the honey is unsafe. To quote Dr. Simoneau "a spring treatment with formic acid, the concentration rose to close to 300 mg/kg which is quite far from the maximum daily intake as suggested by WHO". From the first wesite listed estimate of acceptable daily intake for man: 0-3 mg/kg bw. daily. Generally speaking 70 kg is considered the number when calculating such things so the average human can safely consume 210 mg of formic acid daily without ill effects. This would be 0.7 kg, or over 1.5 lbs of honey, per day. The page also suggests that 2-4 g of sodium formate daily did not produce toxic manifestations in human subjects, even if they were suffering from kidney disease. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:27:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: On the Threshold of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Unfortunately, it means Statement 2 > is too simple - yes, left alone the bees go - over the hedge! They consider > the nest 'complete' when it reaches 15 frames backwards from the entrance - > and swarm. > Robin Dartington. > Perhaps I did not communicate my point well. I was referring to possiblities of using TBH's in more remote areas where one would likely access hives less frequently. I was not suggesting that one neglect the hive for prolonged periods. As to the 15 bar barrier, I suspect that when they reach the 15th bar has a large bearing. I've got two TBH's now with around 20 bars drawn, and I haven't seen any swarm preparations. The same condition a month ago probably would have created a swarm. Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:22:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold Robin said: 2 Dusting could encourage bees to use whatever degree of grooming habit they have Why would it? Why would the need for 'housekeeping' encourage bees to groom one another? In human terms (I know! I know!) that is like saying that my wife is likely to massage my shoulders just because I have messed up the house - I think not! And how often do you plan to dust them to provide this encouragement? Daily? And is 'encourage' the right term anyway? > Monitoring the fall should let us pick out the colonies > that have advanced most towards effective grooming Or the colonies that had the most mites that got dust on their feet and fell off? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 01:47:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Sugar powdering bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A large cardboard box measuring approximately 24 x 24 x 20 with a cup or two of powdered sugar poured into it will rid a hive of most of its phoretic mites. Three of the four covers on the box are closed. A frame is taken from the hive and held down inside the opening of the box as the bees are brushed off. The fourth cover on the box is then closed while another frame is taken from the hive. Open the box’s cover and brush those bees into the box. Close the cover. Do this for each frame of the hive. Occasionally shake or roll the box back and forth while the covers are closed to make sure the bees (and the mites) get a fine dusting of powder. When finished open the box, shake it some more, and watch the bees come flying out looking like little bee ghosts. Many of the bees will remain clustered on the sides of the box. Pour these onto some hardware cloth. A screened bottom board works good for this. The sugar and mites will fall through the screen. The bees on the screen can then be poured back into the hive. It takes a bit of time, maybe half an hour to an hour, but for someone with a few hives it’s an effective non-chemical way to rid the bees of their phoretic mites. Two people working together can speed up the process. If the queen has been caged for a time to interrupt the brood cycle, most mites will be gone from the hive. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:51:32 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anthony Morgan Subject: Re: Sugar powdering bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen wrote: > A large cardboard box measuring approximately 24 x 24 x 20 with a cup or > two of powdered sugar poured into it will rid a hive of most of its > phoretic mites. Three of the four covers on the box are closed. Four covers?? What does this mean??? Cheers Tony Lat 63 deg 26 N. Long 10 deg 45 E A.m. carnica --------------------------------- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteamanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:15:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: formic acid in food In-Reply-To: <3F7359B3.7010409@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All: I wrote: >For how long is the honey unsafe by WHO standards following >treatment(s)? > To which Keith Benson replied: WHO does not say the honey is unsafe. To quote Dr. Simoneau "a spring treatment with formic acid, the concentration rose to close to 300 mg/kg which is quite far from the maximum daily intake as suggested by WHO". Reply: Now let's look at some more sites (including WHO): Here I found a page with figures on residues of Arsenic and heavy metals http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v38aje03.htm Other sites with info about FA http://www.basf.com/static/OpenMarket/Xcelerate/Preview_cid-974236975911_pubid-9 74236725646_c-Article.html http://www.nsc.org/library/chemical/FormicAc.htm http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formic_acid My reflection upon this is that FA may well be natural in honey. Many substances are that are poisonious in bigger amounts, like selen for example and table salt. But the thing with FA used for treating bee colonies is that you use a concentration, a dose hey wildly higher than in those amounts naturally occuring in honey. FA has thus become a posion in the same way as selen and table salt in higher doses. Intended for mites of course, but also having impact on bees. Some development stages of the bees are so sensitive for the concentration used that they die too. How much are the rest of the bees influenced? Lowered immune system? I bet!Length of live? Therefore it's very important to keep a low population of mites all the time to not let the virus have a too big impact on the bee colony. FA in treatment doses are burning the trachea of the bees. No wonder, they would burn your lungs too. Cut a treated bee and look at the trachea under a microscope. Another thing with FA is that it is not produced totally clean, that is there are residues in FA of heavy metals and stuff, and that they evaporate together with the FA and get in now all parts of the hive (combs/propolis). You'll get enough residues of such stuff to make your honey unclean. It's not only pyrethroids, coumaphos and drugs like that, that are risky business in this respect. Maybe unclean FA is a bigger risk as the residues here are water soluble and not fat soluble (then it would get in the wax instead). How much of it is it in FA then? Good question. There are limits for how much you can have of arsenic and heavy metals in it and still use it in connection with food production for humans. But wouldn't it be interesting to make an evaporation test for the amount of FA used in a couple of years and see how much really stayed in the hive, honey and wax? It could mean at least 15 mg (if the FA is "clean" enough to pass the limits for the substances) of arsenic and heavy metals (when one liter has evaporated in the hive, which could be done in 2-3 years). Is that dangerous? I mean how much enter the honey that is extracted to be later eaten? And how much of it will then continue in the future to influence the life of the bees? And does it accumulate and become more dangerous with time? I think some research needs to be done here! A few questions asnwered as to the safety of FA, and where will our industry bee in the future with mass usage of it? Good or bad. . . .what are predictions. Any comments? Regards, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper http:groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:46:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Mite resistance Comments: To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Max said: If the selection pressure, in the form of a pesticide has one specific site of action, and the selection pressure is intense (eg same pesticide applied over many generations) a population of insects/mites may develop a method to block that substance or detoxify it within a (relatively) short space of time. That resultant population would be called resistant. I believe the above type of pressure was what happened with Apistan use in the U.S. plus is now happening with Checkmite use as no alternating with another chemical was or is happening. My question Max which is asked of me many times. Apistan worked excellent in most areas of the U.S. for around ten years as told Apistan would by the makers. If in say the ninth year of control the beekeeper had switched to an essential oil/ organic acid treatment with a very high efficacy and then rotate back to Apistan every other year would Apistan still work even if other beekeepers in his/her area are having the same fluvalinate resistance problem problem? Many Canada beekeepers are asking. Rotating back to Apistan even after 3-5 years of use of another chemical has proven inefective in the U.S. Why? Max said: Thymol is a protein denaturant (it is believed to break down cell walls and disrupt general cellular processes. How dangerous are the fumes of thymol as used in hive treatment to the beekeeper if gloves etc. are kept in the cab of the truck/car and fumes breathed all day by the beekeeper? A couple beekeepers have had headaches, upset stomach and light headedness when exposed to the fumes all day by carrying the nytrile gloves wet with thymol on the floor of the truck cab. Max said: Essential oils and organic acids have been used successfully for quite a while in Europe but have not yet taken over the world as varroa treatments. Do you think the reason is because of temperature problems causing difference in effiacy . Apilife var says not to use if the temp is higher than 90 F. Why? The U.S, supplier of Apilife Var says their product will give excellent varroa control as long as daytime temperatures stay above 54 F. In fact better control will be had if temps stay in the middle 50F. to middle 60 F. range. Are your findings similar? Is the problem with the higher temperatures premature evaporation? The time period for treatment with Apilife var is : 1. treat again in 7-10 days. 2. " " " " 3. " " " The seven day is as good as the 10 day time period I was told. The 7 day would add up to a 21 day treatment period and the 10 day would add up to a 30 day treatment period. Does the time period seem long enouth as compared to your advice for a thymol product? I'm trying to sell Apiguard here. How does Apiguard differ from Apilife var and will you try to market apiguard in the U.S.? Thanks in advance for coming on BEE-L and giving your expert opinion on thymol and resistance in general! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:09:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: Mite resistence Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Max Watkins wrote "... the selection pressure is intense (eg same pesticide applied over many generations) a population of insects/mites may develop a method to block that substance or detoxify it within a (relatively) short space of time. That resultant population would be called resistant." Max has written a very good piece on mode of resistance , detoxification & formation in a population! However, the population response is a bit muddled. The initial population has individuals that are resistant to the introduced chemical (more so than the average mite), these individuals don't die and mate. The resistance does not show up because of the very few out of the whole. After a treatment those that live produce progeny that are potentially resistant, not all but those lucky enough to get the genes conferring resistance. Over time more and more individuals become resistant. So basically it is a statistical population dynamic where the harder you push the population eliminating susceptible individuals the quicker you develop a resistant population because the only successfully mating individuals are those that are resistant. You will not eliminate all the susceptible genes so once you remove the pressure the population will shift back, but the population will still hold a larger number of individual with the "potential" to again become resistant once the same chemical or a similar acting chemical is reintroduced. As an additional comment--similar classes of chemicals can induce a population to more quickly become resistant. So a pyrethroid may make other pyrethroids less effective over the long run! Cheers Mike Griggs Entomologist/ Support Scientist Plant Protection Research Unit USDA ARS, U.S. Plant, Soil & Nutrition Lab. Tower Road, Ithaca, NY 14853 http://www.ppru.cornell.edu/PPRU.htm phone: 607-255-1085 fax: 607-255-1132 email: mhg3@cornell.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:35:05 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anthony Morgan Subject: Re: Reference Needed -Formic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: > What is the REAL REFERENCE for formic acid actually being > in honey and By Who for the research and work???????? When > done????? > > Can anyone help???? What book is the information to be > found in for beekeepers??? What is the actual level of > formic acid in honey if indeed it is to be actually found > in honey and not supposed like early on? The following is possibly of interest:-- APIACTA 38 (2003) 257 NATURAL CONTENT OF FORMIC AND OXALIC ACIDS IN HONEYS Martina Wehling, Werner von der Ohe, Katharina von der Ohe The investigations showed specific differences between the contents of both organic acids for honeys of different botanical origin. The average natural content of formic acid of honeydew honeys was 22,7 (± 3,1) mg/kg, of lime honeys 132,6 (± 18,4) mg/kg, of rape honeys 28,5 (± 3,8) mg/kg and of heather honeys 206,2 (± 89,7) mg/kg. For natural oxalic acid content we found mean values of 46,8 (± 9,2) mg/kg for honeydew honeys, 11,1 (± 4,9) mg/kg for lime honeys, 16,6 (± 3,8) mg/kg for rape honeys and 60,7 (± 3,7) mg/kg for heather honeys. Cheers Tony Lat 63 deg 26 N. Long 10 deg 45 E A.m. carnica ----------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteamanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:52:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Sugar powdering bees four covers what does that mean? it means to fold the four flaps on the top of the box over to close it. sorry i was unclear... Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:54:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Aid for Quebec Beekeepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HELP FOR BEEKEEPERS: PROVINCE ANNOUNCES $1.9-MILLION PROGRAM TO AID QUEBEC INDUSTRY DEVASTATED BY PARASITE MITE September 26, 2003 The Gazette (Montreal) B3 Kevin Dougherty The Quebec agriculture department was cited as announcing a $1.9-million program yesterday to help Quebec beekeepers whose hives have been devastated this year by the parasite mite Varroa destructor. In announcing the program, Agriculture Minister Francoise Gauthier was cited as saying that Quebec's 200 beekeepers have 37,000 hives, and Varroa destructor has wiped out "no less than 50 per cent" of them this year. Denis Pellerin, of the beekeepers association, was cited as saying the damage is even worse in terms of honey production. For 2003, honey production in Quebec is between one-third and one-quarter of the usual amount. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:55:54 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Mite resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob asked the question - "Apistan worked excellent in most areas of the U.S. for around ten years as told Apistan would by the makers. If in say the ninth year of control the beekeeper had switched to an essential oil/ organic acid treatment with a very high efficacy and then rotate back to Apistan every other year would Apistan still work even if other beekeepers in his/her area are having the same fluvalinate resistance problem problem? Many Canada beekeepers are asking. and directed it towards Max. Watkins. I pen my thoughts in response for two reasons: 1. They are how I perceive the situation. 2. If they are incorrect - People will see where I am coming from and then hopefully I will be corrected ! Apistan is effective on average for ten years in specific areas and regions. It may be more or less than this period. During the "effective" time span - a high % of mites are killed - but each treatment period leaves mites in place. The mites that remain do so for several reasons. The particular one grieving beekeepers is where mites are not being killed due to being able to resist the presence of the active material. These resistant mites are a low % of the original population - but not being affected by the treatments applied - they have the potential to multiply. Being originally low in numbers - resistance is not evident for a reasonable period of time - but eventually manifests itself as the mite population grows. Acquired resistance may be simple - i.e. once the active material is changed - efficiency in treatment increases. or, It maybe (and appears usually to be the case) to be more complex - i.e. if the active material is changed but with a related chemical type, then efficiency in treatment increases, but not to the expected level, or for the expected period of time. Changing to a different chemical type or mode of attack (re. Formic acid, thymol etc.) will result in efficient treatment being achieved again. In this situation, the resistant mites are killed BUT not all! Here is a crucial question - WHY? Several responses are possible. 1. The molecule may not be as efficient as the required 99% wished for (100% if one wishes). 2. The mode of application used may cause problems and result in a diminution in treatment efficiency. 3. The mites may have again a low % in the population that are resistant!!!! If these resistant mites are ones that are not also resistant to the original molecule - then treatment may continue until the resistant population reaches levels where the original molecule may be reverted to. But, again as appears to be the usual case, The remaining mites are resistant to both treatments - at least to a degree. Therefore, a third molecule is required, and the cycle goes on! If, as the original molecule approaches the end of its "natural", a replacement substance is used, which is then again replaced by the original molecule after several years - there are mites present in the colony that are possibly carrying double "simple resistance". Then they are no longer being attacked by the second treatment (it having been halted and replaced by the original molecule), against which a resistant population was gradually building up, and they are still exhibiting resistance to the original molecule. End result: The mite population carries on building. Also, it there are colonies in the area that have only been treated with the original molecule - the colonies maybe a great potential source for resistant mites - and if these colonies are collapsing, drifting bees will infest the hives which were treated by the original and second molecule. This would overwhelm and finish off the colonies which underwent the two different treatments. Hoping that this makes sense! Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:34:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 24 Sep 2003 to 25 Sep 2003 (#2003-264) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was an interesting set of mails today with several subject headings but connected with varroa mites, treatments and selection. One of the simple experiments that hobby beekeepers could do on all their hives and commercial beekeepers could do on a similar quantity but smaller proportion is to use mesh floors to monitor natural mite drop. At it's simplest this can tell the keeper to treat or to leave alone, thus reducing routine treatments. The mesh floor can easily pay for itself in a couple of seasons in this way. The reduction in treatments can prolong the effective life of chemicals for those who choose to use them, or to indicate that it is time to take physical or biological treatments for those who do not or who wish to alternate methods. An interesting experiment that I did (24 hour mite drop at monthly intervals) was not just to count naturally fallen mites but to look at them through a 10X lens. I found that over a period of several months the proportion of naturally fallen mites with missing legs or with dents in the carapace increased markedly, although not enough to cope with the increase in mites. This suggests to me that this is an indication that 'aggressive grooming', if that is the appropriate term, is learned behavior rather than inherited. >From this it follows that it may be useful to maintain a proportion of mites in a hive so that learning is not forgotten. I suppose one could do parallel counts on a number of hives to determine whether some are better at aggressive grooming than others or learn faster. If so then selection might be possible and useful. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:26:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Delivering Dust to Mites While finishing sugar-dusting [my girls are kicking!], I could see why this method, with its proven efficacy, has failed catch up with the rest of the industry: tedium infinitum. Although it is too late for me to conduct any experiment, I wonder if the following three different methods will significantly fluctuate the efficacy of dusting: frame by frame dusting, top bar dusting, and blasting the dust at the entrance. If blasting at the entrance does not reduce its effectiveness, I would like to use my leaf-blower, late in the evening when all the bees are back home, and blast the dust into the hive at the entrance while sifting the dust in a stainless steel double sieve, one pair of which I have been using. After all, the whole purpose of dusting is to clog up the suction cups of the mites with the particles measuring about 5 microns. If it works, one does not have to worry about dust clumps since only small puffs will fall down and free-float and circulate inside the hive in a circular air flow. If proven effective, one can finish a hive in thirty seconds. I will be monkeying with this delivery in three weeks, as the new generations of mites emerge. What do you say? Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:31:48 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Honey cider and vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was approached the other day by a person who said that his = grandmother, who is now deceased, used to take a mixture of cider = vinegar and honey for rheumatism. Did I know the formula? I have not heard of this before and wondered if anyone on the list has. = I know that there are a lot of old tales around about some old remedies = but I do know that these do work for some people and not others. Can anyone help me with a formula for mixing the two. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 00:34:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Williamson Subject: Re: Delivering Dust to Mites Thats an interesting idea although on a larger scale it would have to be somewhat mechanical and automated. The one problem I have with it though is getting enough at a time pressurized through the hive. The second and most important is what affect it would have on developing larvae. I have always been told to avoid the brood area when dusting as it could dry out the larvae. What are some thoughts on that? Robert :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:50:00 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Geoff Bongard Subject: Re: Honey cider and vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Trevor Think I can help with this one. I have several elderly customers who buy honey for the purpose of relieving the effects of arthritis. The time-honoured vinegar recipe you are seeking is very simple: 1 teaspoon honey and 1 teaspoon of apple cider vinegar, mixed into a glass of water and taken night and morning. I would also bring to your attention a very good book on vinegar usage: The Vinegar Book by Emily Thacker. Tresco Publishers. (Printed in Australia) Hope this gives you some direction. Regards Geoff Bongard Ashburton New Zealand :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:22:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Honey cider and vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Trevor & All > his grandmother, who is now deceased, used to take a > mixture of cider vinegar and honey for rheumatism. My grandmother used to use 'raspberry vinegar' for rheumatism, but I have no idea of how this was prepared. While she 'swore by' the remedy, I have no idea how effective it was, because my grandfather was always complaining about reumatic pain! Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:02:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Honey cider and vinegar In-Reply-To: <001b01c3849f$815b0bc0$cc342fca@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 27 Sep 2003 at 12:31, T & M Weatherhead wrote: > I was approached the other day by a person who said that his grandmother, > who is now deceased, used to take a mixture of cider vinegar and honey for > rheumatism. Did I know the formula? > > I have not heard of this before and wondered if anyone on the list has. Dr. D. C. Jarvis collected many of the old folk medicines of Vermont. He was a strong advocate of cider vinegar and honey. Run a seach for his book Folk Medicine. I think it's still in print. Amazon.com has it, and probably most other major booksellers. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.info :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 06:58:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Delivering Dust to Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert: “The second and most important is what effect it would have on developing larvae. I have always been told to avoid the brood area when dusting as it could dry out the larvae. What are some thoughts on that?” According to the archive, if I remember correctly, especially following Jim’s account, dusting will not harm the larvae. Or so I thought. However, even if the dusting kills the larvae off, possibly infected with mites, and I realize this side effect is not the original intention, it will be okay, too, since such kill-off provides an artificial broodless period, providing a gap in the life cycle of VD (varroa destroyer), Robin’s point earlier. Dusting frame by frame will dry up the larvae faster if one lays the frame down flat, but since the blast comes through the entrance and floats up, wouldn’t it minimize a direct bombardment, particularly given the slight upward angle of each cell? A mechanized unit, I agree, will be great, especially with a thin T-shape rod, with multiple holes facing up, that will invade deep into the hive and shoot the particles up. Am still bothered by these simple paradoxes, though: (1) Why kept bees, untreated, die eventually whereas the feral bees seem to thrive on their own, thus making our “care” or “love” dubious, questionable, and ultimately irresponsible. (2) The harder we hit mites with harsh chemicals, the more resistant VD will be. (Sounds like the Uncertainty Principle in locating the position of proton, doesn’t it?) If so, why can’t we apply the same principle to our bees? Wouldn’t they rebound if we try to kill them off more often, rather than trying to save the sick at all cost? Look at the methods we have at our disposal for rescuing them from myriad bee maladies: they remind me of the life-support [tubes] in an intensive care unit, and the patient is still dying, hooked up. Yoon Shawnee, OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:55:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Honey cider and vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This may be the proper mixture, but I take 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar and 1 tablespoon of honey every morning. I am told, and I believe this helps keep your arteries clean of platelets ( buildup inside arteries ), and keeps the cholesterol level down. Some say it helps with arthritis, which I don't This will also help with allergies, except being allergic to WORK. I sell honey to a man that says when he misses his honey for a month or more, his arthritis will start to flare. He says honey does help him. Lionel Evans North Alabama . :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:00:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Delivering Dust to Mites In-Reply-To: <200309262226.h8QLOs8o009473@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yoonytoons wrote: > While finishing sugar-dusting [my girls are kicking!], I could see why > this method, with its proven efficacy, has failed catch up with the rest > of the industry: tedium infinitum. Unfortunately, sugar dusting is both effective and ineffective as shown by tests. If I recall it is mostly the time of year that causes the difference. The test was done by adding an ether roll after dusting and where the dusting showed few mites, the roll showed many. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:24:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Delivering Dust to Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Yoon and Everyone, I tried to use a bee blower at the hive entrance to deliver powdered sugar dust. I feed sugar into the blower fan's air intake. I didn't get much dust into the hive, but I sure dusted myself :<) There was too much resistance to the flow through the hive. It was easier for the air to come back out the entrance. I think the entrance would have to be blocked and the cover removed. A better approach might be to build a special cover with an attachment for the blowers hose. Then only the cover would need to be removed. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:54:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joanna Subject: Query about dead bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After a frost last night I noticed a number of bees lying at the side of the hive this morning. Now these bees still where carrying pollen, what would be the reason for this?. Did they not get into the hive before the weather changed? or was it something else. Jo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:13:53 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Longevity of feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yoon questioned: (1) Why kept bees, untreated, die eventually whereas the feral bees seem to thrive on their own, thus making our “care” or “love” dubious, questionable, and ultimately irresponsible? I would like to hear some opinions on recorded observations of truly feral bees and longevity. It would seem to me that accurate observation concerning long term health and succession in a feral setting would be difficult to maintain. Perhaps some have situations where a colony is known without question to exist over extended time without dying out and being replaced by a new swarm. Leland Hubbell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:13:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Delivering Dust to Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon, As I said in the first post if your varroa load is over threshold you are wasting your time! If you had taken our advice and did some testing to know the mite load (and if varroa is even the problem) before dusting then when testing after you would know if dusting worked! Could Yoon's problem really a infestation of tracheal mites? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:14:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Alone On the Threshold Yoon, if you put a check-mite strip or two into your hives for 6-8 weeks your bees will be healthy and you will get a lot of honey next year. It will cost you about 5 dollars per hive. One of the reasons I don't like my hives next to other people's is that many other people are selfish, and when the mites start giving the bees foulbrood, etc.. it makes it difficult for everyone else. The only hive I lost this year to Varroa was in my only apiary where there was another beekeeper. After mine were treated and the Varroa gone, his hives died out, everyone of them. But I guess they succeeded in infecting mine. If you continue on in your current philisophical or religious path, you owe it to any other beekeepers in your area to warn them. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:37:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Delivering Dust to Mites Hi Yoon: Out of curiosity, what did your brood look like when you dusted? A fairly decent pattern? Spotty? Holes in the cappings? Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:27:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Cunningham Subject: honey, cider, vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have customers that use this, they tell me equal parts. One of my = customers adds warm water to the mix. John Cunningham Perrysville, IN :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:56:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: It ain't perfect, but that's how it works MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There has been quite a bit of turmoil on BEE-L the past few weeks, which by my recollection began around the time of "the suicide bee" postings. What started innocently enough, snowballed into quite a tumultuous avalanche that rocked the list and support staff, offended some valued contributors, and has shaken my personal resolve to provide and support this service. Moderating an internet list is not an easy job. It requires a lot of dedication and giving of personal time, often when personal time is short and hard to find. Right now I should be extracting, but here I sit writing. And moderating is often a thankless job. Moderators are subject to constant evaluation by subscribers, and often ridiculed for their decisions. So be it. Objections can and sometimes are posted to the list. A luxury of moderation is that such ridicule can be filtered out from general distribution, but rest assured such objections DO reach the moderators and all comments are duly noted. Let's examine the statement, "such ridicule can be filtered out from general distribution", focusing on "filtered out". Some will cry, "Filtered out my ass, THAT'S CENSORSHIP!" I won't split hairs, call it what you will. Inherent with moderation is the debate of moderation vs. censorship. It is often stated on BEE-L, "Read the archives!" Well, read the archives. When I switched BEE-L to a moderated forum, Andy Nachbar may have been the first to weigh in in the censorship camp. After some time passed, Andy was less vociferous with cries of censorship and admitted that BEE-L was a better forum thanks to moderation. Andy at times had some of his submissions turned away. Upon reflection he often agreed with the decision. Many have had submissions turned away. Moderators have had their submissions turned away. I HAVE HAD SUBMISSIONS turned away. Few like it at the time. Some tone down and resubmit their articles, which may or may not be approved the second time. Some leave. Again, so be it. Further focusing on objections about moderation leading to filtered out/censored from the list, I offer the reason. BEE-L is a list for Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology. Discussions about whether the list should or should not be moderated are not germane to the Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology. Such discussions do not add to the declared purpose of the list "* BEE-L is a moderated list for the discussion of research and * information concerning the biology of bees. This includes honey * bees and other bees (and maybe even wasps). We communicate about * sociobiology, behavior, ecology, adaptation/evolution, * genetics, taxonomy, physiology, pollination, and flower * nectar and pollen production of bees." Objections about moderation will be filtered out. Like it or not, BEE-L IS A MODERATED LIST. Criticisms of the manner in which BEE-L is run lead discussion away from Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology and are rightfully filtered to keep the bandwidth focused on the intent of this list. THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF MODERATION, to keep the bandwidth focused on the intent of this list. There have been many discussions lately about what BEE-L should be. Some have opined that no one should ever say "Read the archives"; such a response is not a friendly way to handle questions from newbies. Some have opined that BEE-L should be an open forum, allowing wide berth and philosophical discussions about anything remotely related to beekeeping. Such opinions are fine, and welcome, and yes, even approved by the moderators. But the truth of the matter is that BEE-L, as are all LISTSERV lists, is owned by an individual. It is that list owner who declares the intent and sets the rules for how the list runs. Be assured that I give suggestions for improvement due consideration. And I am impacted, more so than I should be, by criticisms and objections regarding how the list is run and the personal choices I make regarding those I choose to help run it. The bottom line is, this list is owned by one person. I try to make it as democratic as possible, I try to have one size fit all, I try to have BEE-L be all things for all participants, but the reality of the matter is that such a goal is impossible. And when conflicts require compromise, mine is the final say. How I run this list and who I choose to help with the task are decisions I made after lengthy consideration keeping in mind the desire to keep the bandwidth focused on the intent of this list. For those who may not know how moderation works, submissions to BEE-L are first sent to every moderator. Submissions remain "active" for 72 hours during which any one of the moderators can approve a submission. ONLY ONE approving vote is required to distribute a posting to the general membership. Hence a clear majority of moderators can object to a post and yet be over ruled by one vote. It takes a unanimous withholding of approving votes for a submission to expire. Rarely do the moderators discuss amongst themselves posts which are awaiting approval. It is considered foul play by the list owner for any moderator to approve their own submission. That is the mechanism in place to keep the bandwidth focused. Recently, keeping focused has been very challenging. There are times in raucous meetings when the chair has to resort to banging the gavel to restore order. Such has been the case in the past week on BEE-L. Posts have remained unapproved to end discussions that were going or had gone astray. It is not always easy to decide when discussions have left the realm of informed discussion. At times, discussions that start out innocently enough ("Why did the suicide bee fly into my lit smoker?") can degenerate into blatant name calling and uproar that makes opening the next response a painful exercise. Sometimes threads go six or seven posts past the time when they should have ended. Hindsight is golden. And some threads lose interest of one or two or more moderators and get carried on through a single approving vote from a single moderator long after the conversation should have died. Again, hindsight is golden. Knowing when a thread should stop is a hard call. It's a fine art knowing when to bang the gavel. Too soon and conversation is stifled, too late and the list is subjected to excessive noise. And inevitably when the gavel comes down, whoever was speaking when the gavel bangs, whosever post expires in want of an approving vote is offended. Sorry, that's the way it works. Please if you will, take the time to review BEE-L guidelines at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm I don't mean this to be a cold heartless assessment of the past week or so. Believe me, I have lost sleep over this. Regardless, that's how MY list works. Rather than behind the scene, off-list exchanges I offer that BEE-L may be better served, and offended posters may be better served by keeping focused on the intent of the list. If the manner in which BEE-L runs is objectionable, there are many other forums out there where chaotic exchange is more the rule of order. This is not meant as, "If you don't like it leave!" I value everyone's participation but realize I can't please all the people all the time. In the meantime I am convinced that BEE-L remains a fine forum for civil exchanges where the bandwidth stays focused on the Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology. Aaron Morris BEE-L Owner/Editor/Moderator :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 05:36:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Delivering dust to mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/09/03 05:10:25 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Am still bothered by these simple paradoxes, though: (1) Why kept bees, untreated, die eventually whereas the feral bees seem to thrive on their own, >> Yoon, I think the important part of this paradox is 'seem to'. Without testing it is a simple guess and I am sure that in many cases feral colonies die out and are replaced by the next swarm to come along without the occasional observer noticing. Your 'test to destruction' approach may shed light on this (so long as you mark your queens). Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 06:23:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Delivering Dust to Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick and Tim: The brood pattern, mostly in a pyramid formation at the center, stretching up to two to three deeps, was packed, though smaller than in the spring, which is normal at this time of the year, but no holes. As I posted earlier, nevertheless, I have never seen my bees being more vigorous during fall flow than during spring; they are hardly at equal strength, though vigorous. Yes, if I were to medicate, I would use Apistan, not CheckMite, this time around, and I know it will work without any possibility of creating resistance. Reading many suggestions from the list, however, I get the impression that I have no clue about medicating. I am, to the contrary, well aware of the myriad chemical, hard or soft, treatments, including FGMO and oxalic acid as well as paper-towel-peppermint-canola emersion method. They are all fine as a *stop-gap measure,* the typical knee-jerk emotive reaction, but I must refuse to be myopic. I am looking at a long- term solution; besides, I came this far without treating. Not treating has been the most difficult part in my beekeeping: it demands an iron will. I emailed a bee-researcher about a possible experiment using hot-pepper dust, which might, at the right dosage, during a broodless period in dearth or in winter, not only dislodge the VD but also kill it at contact; garlic and hot pepper are well known to gardeners about their insect- repelling/killing properties. In fact, I wondered about the equivalent form of oxalic acid from pepper, such as the stuff found in a pepper spray. Do you know any such stuff? Mites, clever enough to attack the most vulnerable parts of exoskeleton, are relatively stupid animal; hence a low-tech approach, such as dusting, should be adequate controlling their numbers. Using a highly sophisticated nerve agent to kill a dumb VD is like killing a fly with a cannon ball, making the pest a moving target, resulting in a hit and miss, and worse, a daring resistance. Not to pontificate my “religious” dogma, Tim, I just cannot stand the thought that kept bees are dying while feral bees are not. You have to agree that something is wrong with that picture. I, in fact, would call myself a blooming beehaver if I own a million colonies that will all perish, left untreated, overnight. Coming from such a bee farmer, the claim of “Organic Honey” rings thunderously hollow. And I do not think it is the bees’ fault that they are sick. Imagine that it is possible for all of us to stop treating altogether, period—-I know, I know—-there will, it is not impossible, emerge a decent stock, given time. *If mites can be resistant, on their own, so should honey bees*. Oklahoma, according to my last check, is just one county away (southwesterly) from a quarantined Texas county. As the AHB’s are on the move, averaging 200 miles per year, they will eventually throw another curve ball in the equation since their shorter brood period will disallow VD incubation, just as they are doing to Arid Zona. The good thing about their invasion is that they don’t seem to pay a whole lot of attention about national border, state line, and the very quarantine the bee experts impose. In order to free our honey bees from drug-addiction, we must first free ourselves from drug-pushing. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:01:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ed Subject: Mites can't be so mighty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List, This might seem a bit of a stretch, but I suggest that there is a more gentle and compassionate perspective that could prove realistic in viewing varroa which could be called "compassionate destruction". Perhaps someday we will spray a solution into our hives that contains a bacteria/virus that kills varroa but is harmless to bees. I know this idea has been raised at least once on this list, does anyone know of research that points to a solution here? Mites have seen a huge population explosion it seems that nature would find a way to paratisize the parasites. So, in a paradoxical way, I hope that people could raise varroa (to isolate and raise what kills varroa in nature). We do need a new perspective-it seems to me that the two camps (chemical/non-chemical) which have provided so much interesting thought lately on varroa are both trying to defend the positive aspects of their positions but can't escape the respective (and quite real) negatives to each side. Thanks, Ed Boutin (who sometimes mediates and loves reading witty tag lines but can't think of a one). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:32:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Sunflowers In North Dakota FYI To the List, During the last few minutes of today's CBS Sunday Morning program those folks in time zones east of EDT can see a few minutes of honey bees pollinating sunflowers,very good close-up photography. Chuck :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:09:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Mites can't be so mighty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Ed Said... > Perhaps someday we will spray a solution into our hives that > contains a bacteria/virus that kills varroa but is harmless to bees I am not knocking Ed here, he was merely the guy that brought it up, but there is far too much emphasis on 'wiping out' varroa. The objective should be some sort of coexistance... A natural mite/parasite balance that requires no chemical or IPM intervention and I reckon both the bees and varroa have to shift the focus of their genepools in order that this balance can be struck. Easy to suggest, but I have no particular ideas how such an objective can be achieved. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:18:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Mites can't be so mighty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ed & All, Ed said: Perhaps someday we will spray a solution into our hives that contains a bacteria/virus that kills varroa but is harmless to bees. I know this idea has been raised at least once on this list, does anyone know of research that points to a solution here? Actually the research going on in the U.K. by Dr. Norman Carrick is that A. mellifera can survive and control varroa if we can find a way to control the viruses. Norman has had a certain amount of success but also a few failures and was the last time we talked trying to figure why the failures. Perhaps Norman will comment as new progress may have been made. Varroa is hard to study because without a host varroa lives a very short time. For this reason I know of no study on parasites/bacteria for varroa control. Fungi is being looked at as a varroa control but have not heard an update lately. Maybe my post will bring an update to the list! Ed said: Mites have seen a huge population explosion it seems that nature would find a way to paratisize the parasites. True! But varroa has only been a parasite of the honeybee for a very short time. Arachanids from what I understand have very few parasites other than other arachanids! If one thinks the death of the drone is cruel how about the death of the male Black Widow spider( after mating of course!)! Ed said: So, in a paradoxical way, I hope that people could raise varroa (to isolate and raise what kills varroa in nature). Varroa seems to suffer from two main problems which effect varroa survival. 1. lack of a host (max life span I have been told is 7 days) 2. lack of cells to reproduce in. Systemic is the method of control I prefer but so far nothing new! Ed said: We do need a new perspective-it seems to me that the two camps (chemical/non-chemical) which have provided so much interesting thought lately on varroa are both trying to defend the positive aspects of their positions but can't escape the respective (and quite real) negatives to each side. The main reson I responded to Ed's post was to comment here. I believe there is only one camp instead of two as Ed suggested. I NEVER MET A BEEKEEPER WHICH THOUGHT PUTTING A CHEMICAL IN A BEEHIVE WAS A GOOD IDEA OR WITHOUT RISK! Never! Not One! In other words all beekeepers are wanting the same thing which is enough bees to survive varroa until we work out a non chemical permanant solution. Fact is the organic grower can not feed the world and the hobby beekeeper can not pollinate the crops to save our Almond, Blueberry, cranberry Apple and a hundred or so other industries in the U.S.from ruin from lack of pollination. Chemicals have became a neccessary evil in many instances! Certainly not the best solution to the worlds food production and varroa problems! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:54:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ted Hancock Subject: Re: Varroa mites are gone! It has been awhile since I have read Bee-L and this topic caught my attention. Haven't read the archives so will assume I am repeating what has already been said 400 times by telling you my experience with varroa. I live in a geographically isolated area and stayed free of varroa until approximately 1997. I didn't actually notice the mites until the spring of 1999 ( busy building a house ). By the spring of 1999 the mites were so populous I could find 3 or 4 in almost every drone cell. I treated with Apistan strips but half of my 400 hives died. I noticed many of the queens seemed to move in slow motion which I suspect was the result of a virus spread by the mites. I've monitored mite levels by pulling out drone larva and sporadically testing with Apistan strips and sticky boards over the following years. Had to treat spring and fall with Apistan to keep mite levels under control. In the spring of 2002 I decided I'd better give Apistan a rest so treated with formic acid pads. It was a cold spring and the treatment was not very successful. That summer was very cool and dry here and I got very little honey. By the first of August I was again finding 3 or 4 varroa in every drone cell, could even spot them on the odd bee. So on the first of August 2002 I pulled off all the bone dry empty honey supers and installed Apistan strips. In the spring of 2003 I tested mite levels using the alcohol wash method as described by Rob Currie on www.capabees.ca/eil.htm. This page also includes a chart reflecting treatment thresholds. The only change I made to his method was to put the sample bees from each hive in quart jars full of alcohol so that I could shake them for five minutes. Testing this spring showed mite levels were 2% so I did not treat. Tested again at the end of June and the mite level had not changed. Tested again at the end of August and mite levels were 2.5% to 3% so I again did not treat. There are too many variables to for me to know why this is. Some possible factors are: I started clipping all my queens last year so that there are fewer feral swarms reinfecting my hives, we had a very hot summer this year so that the mites could not reproduce as well, the one and only hobbyest within 50 miles of me gave up beekeeping this year, or because I put strips in early last fall there was a more effective mite kill. I would be interested in other people's theories on this. One thing many beekeepers noticed when their hives first became infected with varroa was that they had one or two bumper honey crops in the years before their hives collapsed. This was also the case with me. Is this just coincidence or do low mite levels somehow have a positive influence on honey crops? Our summer was hot and dry. Fortuantly we had enough rain in the spring to get an adequate honey crop. (100lbs/hive) That's about 100% better than last year. Ted :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:55:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Mites can't be so mighty "ed" said: > This might seem a bit of a stretch, but I suggest that there is a more > gentle and compassionate perspective that could prove realistic in viewing > varroa which could be called "compassionate destruction". Perhaps someday > we will spray a solution into our hives that contains a bacteria/virus that > kills varroa but is harmless to bees. I know this idea has been raised at > least once on this list, does anyone know of research that points to a > solution here? Two points: 1. Yes, there is work currently in progress (about 6 miles away from me) on the use of fungi to kill varroa. 2. Can being killed by a fungus be considered gentle or compassionate destruction? (I only ask the question - personally I would be happy for varroa to be eliminated by any means!) Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:53:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: Extractor that uncaps? Does my memory fail me or is there an extractor that also uncaps? I remember something about the speed of movement just sent the honey through the cap. Any links? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:36:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Mites can't be so mighty In-Reply-To: <004501c385fd$801fe5a0$10e787d9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >1. Yes, there is work currently in progress (about 6 miles away from me) on >the use of fungi to kill varroa. > >Peter Edwards Can you tell us more? Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:37:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cal French Subject: feral hive in tree: damage? capture? In-Reply-To: <200309280400.h8S3mm6W025993@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A young man stopped by this afternoon. He said a wild hive had nested in the hollow limb of an oak near where he is building a house. Neighbors have told him he needed to get rid of the bees because they will kill the tree. I said I doubted that. I would appreciate any information you have that I could pass along to him. I told him, from what I have read, removing the bees would be difficult at best. I have captured a swarm, but removing bees from a hollow limb about 8 feet (2.4 meters) above ground would be too much for me. When I said I could come out an kill them for him (best solution, in my opinion), he said he did not want that. (Yes, I searched the archives from 1995 on, and did not find what I needed to know.) Cal French, hobby keeper, Adelaida, California. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:36:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "h.morton@worldnet.att.net" Subject: Check Mite Plus Vs Apistan Strips I'm considering using Check Mite Plus in my hives for varroa control. I have been using apistan strips both spring and fall. I have concerns about saftey precautions in using the check mite plus. How do safety precautions doffer from using aistan strips. Searching for your knowledge and recommendations. Thanks in Advance :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::