From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:20:33 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E1F48FCF for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdQ011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0310A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 279800 Lines: 6438 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 08:23:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Turkish honey In-Reply-To: <01c3878c$770b3420$f64efa43@evlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <01c3878c$770b3420$f64efa43@evlaptop>, E.A. Vogt writes >Recently, a friend gave me a bottle of Turkish honey ("tukas"), which looks >and tastes (to me) like molasses. The label on the jar provides little >information, and the plant pictured on the label looks like a coniferous >plant ! This is Pine honey, and is exported in large quantities from both Turkey and Greece. Yes it tastes very treacle like, and the Greek is generally even stronger (and thus a bit more expensive) than the Turkish. It is, as suggested elsewhere, really a honeydew. I sold the Greek version to many stores in the UK and abroad. It is a specialised taste, but like so many of the stronger flavours, once the person grows to like it nothing else is quite right for them. Turkey is a VERY large honey producer. It has a range of specialist types available, but much of it is sold as simple 'polyflora'. Do a quick scan for honey on the small ads section of www.apiservices.com and you will usually find several Turkish vendors offering their products. Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:35:06 +0200 Reply-To: Derek Steed Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Derek Steed Subject: Re: Sprachen Sie Deutch? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I can do this Yoon, I´m English living in Germany ( German wife ).Do I have to do it all or really just enough so you can use this technique? I use oxalic acid - sugar solution each winter ( Nov-Dec ) but dribble it over the seams of bees.It kills varroa but will kill the bees as well if you overdose.At least you don´t have to tear the winter cluster apart. Regards Derek Steed :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:26:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Mite resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> "There's always a cost to the organism [mites in this case] >> in being resistant and if the selection >> pressure, i.e. the treatment type, is removed then the >> "normal" susceptible characters will once >> again predominate in a population." Or as we say in systems programming, "You tweak it here, you kick it there!" In way of explanation, say a bee breeder crosses a certain breeder queen with a desireable trait (say good honey production) with drones from a drone production colony with a different desireable trait (say pretty color). The cross is successful and the breeder comes up with a batch of queens that produce enormous crops of honey and thet're all a prettu color to boot. Great! It could however be the case that, unbeknownst to the breeder, the combination of traits that yield the pretty, high production colonies also resulted in the drones from those colonies being duds and unable to pass on their genes. Unless the breeder continues to cross the originals to keep the trait going, the natural selection will eventually remove the resultant strain (pretty bees that produce big crops). Now it may not be that simple. The original example was V. mites that are resistent to acaricides (I think both Coumaphos and fluvalinate were mentioned). It could possibly be that the resistence that the mites build up comes hand in hand with the mites being afraid of the dark. Doubtful, but hey, who knows? So anyway, these resistent mites who are afraid of the dark would rather leave the hive for a walk in the sunshine than enter a dark cell with a ripe larvae. If that were so, this strain of resistent mites would soon cease to exist. Perhaps they already have! Yes, I hypothesize that there have been two strains of resistent mites, one who behave "normally" and continue Varroa reproduction cycles as we know them, and one strain of resistent mites who walk out of the hive because they are afraid of the dark and soon perish in the sun! We haven't heard about the afraid of the dark mites because they quickly perish. So, you tweak it here, you kick it there. It may be the case that the pressure (be it bee breeder, or chemicals, or whatever) will have positive results all around (the pretty bees are good producers and the drones are verile studs), or it may be the case as described (good honey preducers, pretty bees, sterile drones). Once the pressure is removed, left long enough to "natural" environments, things will return towards equilibrium (what they were before any pressures were applied). Such has been the case over and over in the beekeeping industry when breeders have isolated traits in a strain of bees, only to have those characteristics lost when the bees are released to the general beekeeping population. The Starline strain is a prime example. Such is the danger of SMR breeders. Unless continuous selection occurs, the pressure is removed and things will revert to equlibrium. So Peter asks, "How good is new?" My answer is as good as it is when it's new. If it's REALLY good, the incentive to keep up the pressure will keep things new. My thoughts go to expensive queens able to resist Varroa, produce good honey crops, and what the hell, pretty too. I would gladly shift my treatment costs, time and effort, (what $10 per hive? more?) to the price of "new" queens if they consistently exhibited as described. Aaron Morris - thinking new thoughts! Nah, they've been thought before. > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:01:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: Mite resistance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In response to Peter's enquiry, there was an interesting paper published last year by Stephen Martin, Patti Elzen and William Rubink: 2002. Effect of acaricide resistance on reproductive ability of the honey bee mite Varroa destructor. Exp. Appl. Acarology. 27: 195-207. The author's observed that mites from a fluvalinate resistant population lay just as many eggs and rear just as many fertile offspring as mites from a fluvalinate susceptible population (abstract below). Seeing as there is little consequence to mite reproduction rate to carry the resistance gene(s) it is not suprising when Max reports low rates of reversion to fluvalenate susceptiblity among resistant populations in Europe. There was a great study documenting the slow rate of reversion in an isolated population in Friuli Italy (abstract below). The rate at which populations of pests and microbial pathogens develop resistance is a complicated issue. It took years of oxytetracycline use before resistance was detected among Paenibacillus larvae subsp. larvae strains, but coumpahos resistant Varroa in the USA appeared very quickly after Check Mite was introduced. Prudent resistance management right from the introduction of a new chemical, seems the best way to hedge my bet and keep a useful product around for the longest period of time. I have enjoyed following this thread. Adony Experimental and Applied Acarology 27 (3): 195-207, 2002 Effect of Acaricide Resistance on Reproductive Ability of the Honey Bee Mite Varroa Destructor Stephen J. Martin Laboratory of Apiculture and Social Insects, Department of Animal and Plant Sciences, Sheffield University, Western Bank, Sheffield, S10 2TN, UK Author for correspondence (Tel.: (0)114-2220149; Fax: (0)114-2220002; E-mail: s.j.martin@sheffield.ac.uk) Patti J. Elzen USDA, Honey Bee Unit, 2413 E. Highway 83, Weslaco, TX 78596, USA William R. Rubink USDA, Honey Bee Unit, 2413 E. Highway 83, Weslaco, TX 78596, USA Abstract The reproduction of pyrethroid-resistant Varroa destructor mite, a brood parasite of honey bees, was observed in Weslaco, Texas, and the results compared with known susceptible mite populations from other studies. Seven Apis mellifera colonies that had mite populations resistant to the acaricide Apistan* were used. Pyrethroid-resistance was confirmed when only 17% rather than 90% of mites confined in dishes containing Apistan* died after 12 h of exposure. The average number of eggs laid by resistant mites invading worker and drone cells was 4.4 and 5.4 respectively. This is similar to the number of eggs laid by susceptible mites in worker (4.4-4.8) or drone (4.7-5.5) cells. Also the average number of fertilised V. destructor female mites produced by resistant mites in worker (1.0) and drone (2.1) cells were similar to the number produced by susceptible mites in worker (0.9) and drone (1.9-2.2) cells. In addition, no major differences between the resistant and susceptible mite populations were observed in either worker or drone cells when six different reproductive categories and offspring mortality rates were compared. Therefore, it appears that there is little or no reproductive fitness cost associated with pyrethroid resistance in V. destructor in Texas. Decline in the proportion of mites resistant to fluvalinate in a population of Varroa destructor not treated with pyrethroids Norberto Milani and Giorgio Della Vedova Università di Udine, Dipartamento di Biologia applicata alla Difesa delle Piante, Via delle Scienze 208, 33100 Udine, Italy (Received 17 January 2002; revised 7 April 2002; accepted 15 April 2002) Abstract The reversion of resistance to pyrethroids in Varroa destructor Anderson & Trueman was studied in Friuli (northern Italy), where resistance was detected in 1995 and pyrethroids had not been used since. Mites were sampled in seven localities each year between 1997 and 2000 and assayed in the laboratory for the resistance to f luvalinate by using paraffin coated capsules. Survival at the diagnostic concentration, expected to kill all susceptible mites (200 mg/kg), decreased in all the localities by about ten times in three years, from 19-66% to 1.3-7.8%. Thus, the disadvantage associated with the resistance to pyrethroids in V. destructor is small, as usual when resistance is due to monooxygenases. Its impact on the selection of resistant mites during annual application of treatments is negligible; appreciable effects of reversion can be expected only over many generations of the mite. Key words: Varroa destructor / reversion / resistance / pyrethroids Correspondence and reprints: Norberto Milani e-mail: norberto.milani@pldef.uniud.it :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:10:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Mite resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Morris" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 6:26 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Mite resistance > >> "There's always a cost to the organism [mites in this case] > >> in being resistant and if the selection > >> pressure, i.e. the treatment type, is removed then the > >> "normal" susceptible characters will once > >> again predominate in a population." > Unless the breeder continues to cross the originals to keep > the trait going, the natural selection will eventually remove the resultant > strain (pretty bees that produce big crops). Unless continuous > selection occurs, the pressure is removed and things will revert to > equlibrium. Hi Aaron and All, I have been working with the Russian stock. In 2002 I requeened 180%. In 2002 I requeened 50%. Out of 150+ hives now , I have 100+ that have kept the mite down to very low levels.You may find a mite in one out of 100 drone cells. The game has changed. No fast fixes or silver bullets. It will take a lot of work and attention by the breeders and beekeepers.We need a vary large gene pool to keep solid progress. Dr. Tom Rinderer is on top of it at this time.Breeders will need to do better selection and more testing. I was talking with Dr. Allen Sylvester face to face a little over a month ago. It was about Russian stock and how beekeepers have to change there management to fit the new traits. There will be something published on the subject in the ABJ. The USDA has been working on it with other beekeepers. I have learned a lot over the last 3 years.I know we can beat the mite from destroying our bees without chemicals. It takes knowledge , wisdom and patients. The mite will not go away. In nature the bee would win over time. That is proven in eastern Russia. Is the bee good for beekeeping? I don't know. It can stay alive. That's where we start. The rest of it is selective breeding with a large gene pool. The idea of mite resistance is very complex.We can waist a lot of time trying to pick it apart.Man is good at that, wasting time putting things in box's. So we can explain things to each other. There is a place for it, but right now, we need breeding for results. Figure out why later. Everybody Have a Great Day. Roy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:04:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Sprachen Sie Deutch? Great, Derek. No need to do the whole thing. How about just 1) preparation, 2) application, 3) results, and so forth, to get to the essence of PDF. Thanks. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 15:03:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Docteur André Simoneau Subject: Formic acid usage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/FormicAcid.html To Dee Lusby: the essential of your questions should receive answer in the link above. Docteur André Simoneau Médecin vétérinaire régional Montréal-Laval-Lanaudière MAPAQ-CQIASA Laboratoire de pathologie animale 867, boulevard L'Ange-Gardien L'Assomption, Québec Canada J5W 4M9 Téléphone: 450-589-5745 poste 275 Télécopie: 450-589-0648 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:11:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Formic acid usage In-Reply-To: <59C4FA4389E5D411AFE00002A51B9D893281F7@LASS1-NTCOUP1.mapaq.gouv.qc.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Docteur André Simoneau wrote: > http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/FormicAcid.html > > To Dee Lusby: > the essential of your questions should receive answer in the link above. I did a quick search of the internet on formic acid in food and it is naturally occurring and is also a by product of digestion of methanol and other naturally occurring chemicals in food. (Sort of obvious since it is a simple organic acid.) So if we are concerned about the levels of formic acid in honey, we are creating a problem that is not there, since you can use the same flawed analysis on tomato juice and tomatoes. Since I grow tomatoes and have my daily BLT and salad I have more formic acid in me than a couple of teaspoons of maxed out honey taken directly from a hive after treatment. But that will never occur since all beekeepers follow directions on the label and will not super until the correct time after treatment. So it is unlikely that the formic acid levels will be much beyond the normal percentage in honey. In any case, much less than what I am generating daily with my tomatoes. Compared to honey, a glass of tomato juice is downright toxic, if you are worried about formic acid levels. This thread seems to be in search of a problem that is not there. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:29:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: formic acid residue In-Reply-To: <002f01c38796$b8549160$01a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Please correct me if my memory is off or the chemical > used in the movie was not formic acid. > > Sorry but I can not remember the name of the movie based on a true story. > > In the movie the largest class action lawsuit in the U.S. at the time was > over health problems of workers taning leather with liquid formic acid ( I > believe from memory). The health problems were from breathing the fumes and > the company illegally dumping the formic acid water in a nearby creek. Bob, Trichloroethylene and tetrachloroethylene were the chemicals that were dumped, not formic acid. Got into the water supply. http://www.civil-action.com/facts/keydocuments/judgedec.html Movie was A Civil Action. (Not bad.) http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0120633/#comment Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 22:11:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jack Grimshaw Subject: Re: feral hive in tree: damage? capture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim V.: Greetings to a fellow Arborist.I've been a Licensed Arborist(CT.)and a beekeeper(sometimes unsuccessful) since the 70's.I agree with you 100%,never seen honey bees kill a tree. But.....honey bees live in a cavity and tree cavities increase the potential for tree failure.It sounds like this person should consult a treeman in addition to a beeman. Jack Grimshaw Aaron,Thumbs up.Sometimes it has to be said. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 04:55:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: feral hive in tree: damage? capture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The oak tree will have a drainage mark on a hollow tree or limb. It maybe down from the area of the hive entrance. The bark may wrinkle as the age increase below the hollow. Laurel oaks life span is 85 to 125 years. Cutting a limb off on a mature tree will open a hollow. It may seal itself for a few years but most will open as the tree gets older. Paints and tars help but the opening will appear sooner or later. Woodpeckers will put larvae to feed their young, wood ducks will nest, and raccoon den in these hollows. Storms will twist and crack limbs which work the same as the limb cutting. These hollows are sealed by the honeybees and will help in the life of the tree. The limb is weaken before they put the nest in the hollow. This limb or tree is weaken and will fall. It will fall sooner than the remainder of the tree. Its life is shorten but not by the honeybee. The tonnage of weight from an oak tree will crush a house or car. Advice of removing limbs that are over a building is important. The rest of the tree and the hollow of bees can go for 10 to 20 years without problems. Working with the tree remove crew by removing the bees if the limb has to be cut or screen covering it while they cut the limbs above. Screening it will leave the bees in the tree for years. Michael Housel Orlandobee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 07:23:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Should I throw the sugar water away? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tried to make up some sugar water to feed to my bee hive by boiling some water and pouring it into two jars then adding sugar at the proper ratio. The result was slightly tea colored unlike earlier batches that were clear. I've heard that giving bees caramelized sugar can make them sick. What should I do with the two gallons of sugar water? Give it to the bees or throw it away? -Dennis (aka Paul D. Law) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:26:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Manhattan bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Laszlo" > IBRA has a book about beekeeping laws and the history thereof. It includes > Old English law. Do not know the title/author offhand" This could be David Frimston & David Smith, Beekeeping and the Law - Swarms & Neighbours, 1993 10.50GBP. Published by BBNO not IBRA, but Smith is Hon Sec of IBRA as well as Hon Judge QC. Contains accounts of 12 law cases plus notes on UK Environmental Protection Act 1990. BBNO tel UK 01432 840 529 Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:51:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Should I throw the sugar water away? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > by boiling some water > and pouring it into two jars > then adding sugar at the proper ratio. > > The result was slightly tea colored > unlike earlier batches that were clear. Hmmm. Boiling water with sugar added after the boil will not reach temperatures high enough to caramelize the sugar. You state the syrup was not clear like previous batched. Are the any other variables that changed between the batches? Thick syrup (2:1) will be darker than thin syrup (1:1). Possibly you're making a thicker syrup? OR, might the source of your sugar have changed? Possibly you have a less refined batch of sugar this time which could account for the difference in color. Or possible your sugar was dirty. I would rule out caramelization as a concern. If you attribute the color difference to thicker syrup, no concern. If you suspect a less refined sugar you're in a gray area. The less refined the sugar, the more "undigestibles" you bees will have to deal with. You did not give location so I am not sure how confined your bees will be during winter months, and who knows what kind of a winter is on tap regardless where you're located. But the more "undigestibles" your bees consume, the greater will be their needs for cleansing flights. Should you throw the syrup away? Dunno. The question you need to answer (doubtful you'll get this answer on BEE-L) is why is your syrup darker. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:07:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Funny honey taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" " I also believe that there is no such thing as organic honey." This smacks too much of trying to resist change - 'what I already sell is all anyone should need'. There is a sizeable (but growing?) minority of people who are becoming more aware of the dubious quality of mass-produced food. 'Organic' appeals, whether or not it really offers a better product. The consumer feels at least they are indicating a preference. Despise and ridicule the consumer at your risk! Food quality depends on : 1 the original source : 2 how much it has been protected from contamination during processing. Yes, no beekeeper can really guarantee that the plants visited were all managed by organic methods - so 1. is not possible. However, honey can be contaminated by using chemicals in the hive and by less than very careful control on feeding 'chemicals' such as processed sugar. [I realise that sugar feeding is emotive on this list - because some ways of managing bees depend on sugar feeding - but just recogise for a moment that organic consumers are very picky indeed, and we are taking here of the preferences of consumers not of producers). So those beekeepers who want to, can go a long way towards marketting a distinguishable product if they apply a label stating that no hard chemicals are ever applied to the hives and no sugar is ever fed. Such honey may not be labellable 'organic' because the source cannot be guaranteed. Since voluntarily refusing the easy options of aplying chemicals and sugar feeds can (ocasionaly) result in higher colony losses and lower yields per hive, it would be only good sense for such honey to be marketted at a higher price - it is no ploy, it is providing variety at the market place, appropriately priced. The consumer can then decide to buy or not, and the market for such honey 'guaranteed of natural quality' will develop or not. To avoid confusion and misunderstanding, alarm and rebuttals, I am NOT saying myself that all honey produced by standard methods is necessarily inferior. I am also not saying that organic produce offers better food value than standard industrialised farm produce. I am talking only of consumer suspicion and clearly declared willingness to pay more for food produced in ways that at least recognise the consumers concerns , even if it is not able to go all the way. Organic farmers still use some chemicals. By analogy, 'Honey of natural quality' could still be claimed by beekeepers who apply naturally ocurring organic acids and volatile oils. The issue of distinguishing a range of 'purities' (if that is the right word) in honey has not yet been adequately addressed in my view - dismissing it all as bogus or ploys will I feel only delay the time consumers can feel they understand better what they are buying. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:40:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Sue Subject: Angel Bottles Does anybody know any sources for purchasing the Angel (shaped) honey bottles? I'm also looking for a source for the labels. I'd appreciate any sources! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 07:53:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: New Small Hive Beetle trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, An inventor as invented a practical small hive beetle trap and the trap is available from Dadant in Florida. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:21:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: Should I throw the sugar water away? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- > > by boiling some water > > and pouring it into two jars > > then adding sugar at the proper ratio. > > > >> As per a recent Bee Culture magazine hot enough water actually "inverts" the sucrose to other sugars. This chemical change may add some color. Don't know. Dickm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:21:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: New Small Hive Beetle trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > a practical small hive beetle trap > and the trap is > available from Dadant in Florida. Have you seen it? How does it work? The beetles check in but the don't check out? Chemicals involved? Mechanical? Tell us more, tell us more! Cheers, Aaron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:33:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Should I throw the sugar water away? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > by boiling some water > and pouring it into two jars > then adding sugar at the proper ratio. > > The result was slightly tea colored > unlike earlier batches that were clear. I usually prepare my sugar water the same way, and I never hesitate to feed it to my bees, and I've never seen any bad results that I could recognize. My sugar water almost never comes out clear. If you gave your sugar water to me, I would feed it to MY bees. My best guess is that the sugar is slightly less refined, so therefore has a tiny bit of molasses in it, making the light tea color. This reminds me that, as I recall, cane sugar is good for bees and beet sugar is not, for some reason. Make sure you use cane sugar. Someone else probably knows what is in beet sugar that makes it bad for bees. (It's probably in the archives). If it were me, I wouldn't throw it away. I wouldn't worry about it. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:21:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Certified Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, News flash! Those beekeepers getting organic labels printed to cash in on the "organic honey " demand might consider adding either "local" or "product of the U.S.A". to the label. as I have been told that several foreign interests are approaching U.S. packers with foreign honey "certified organic" by their third world countries. Can we really trust these certifications? I have been told the largest chain store in the U.S. (moderators will not let me use the name) is considering selling "certified organic honey" from foreign sources at prices comparable to grocery store prices for our domestic honey. See add pg. 794 of the Oct. American Bee Journal! (foreign organic honey for sale in the U.S. ) Several large U.S. packers are now certified organic! ( see add pg.826 of the Oct. ABJ. for verification of what I say!) Will "certified organic honey" be a nitch market? Bob Ps. To keep up on the ever changing bee business and beekeeping in general in the U.S. I would recommend beekeepers subscribe to one or better yet both excellent magazines on U.S. beekeeping. The American Bee Journal and Bee Culture! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:30:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: New Small Hive Beetle trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw this trap at the WV State Beekeepers fall conference 2003. Looks like a tray with a plastic screen over it. You fill the tray with cooking oil where the beetles fall in and drown. Russ Dean Jackson County, WV :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:26:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: New Small Hive Beetle trap In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A1090D1E6D@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have also found out that the fire ant traps you use on truck loads of bees for Almond polinqtion work also. Charlie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:16:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Should I throw the sugar water away? In-Reply-To: <066601c388e8$166ae400$08d13ccc@userusnz5uny3x> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Marron wrote: >>>by boiling some water >>>and pouring it into two jars >>>then adding sugar at the proper ratio. > As per a recent Bee Culture magazine hot enough water actually "inverts" the > sucrose to other sugars. This chemical change may add some color. Don't > know. As Aaron said, it all depends on where you are. In British research, invert sugar (by boiling) was not a good winter feed for cold climates. It does kill bees, but if you are in a short winter area you will not notice the 5-15% loss of bees. Same with adding tartaric acid (cream of tartar) which is suggested in my copy of the Hive and Honey Bee. It also results in bee deaths, but, again, not noticeable to the beekeeper. If you are in a long winter area, I would dump it and just add sugar to warm water, not boiling. I did notice a yellow cast to some boiled sugar syrup (back when I started keeping bees and was told that was how to make up feed). If your sugar source is reputable, it is probably fine to feed them if you are in a short winter area. You probably will not notice the difference in the spring, but you will have fewer bees than you would without the invert sugar. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:53:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: Angel Bottles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brushy Mountain Bee Farm has the angle honey bottles you might like. Call 1-800-BEESWAX, Brushy Mountain Bee Farm 610 Bethany Church Rd. Moravian Falls, NC 28654 http://beeequipment.com/ sales@beeequipment.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:04:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: <003f01c388de$437eb340$da7abc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: > From: "Bob Harrison" " I also believe that there is no such thing as organic > honey." > > > This smacks too much of trying to resist change - 'what I already sell is > all anyone should need'. I am with Bob. It is not any resistance to change, but an acknowledgment that there really is no such thing as organic honey. There are procedures to claim it is organic, but what differentiates it chemically from other honey? My concern with the whole issue of Organic Honey is first, there is no way to tell Organic Honey apart from what comes out of my non-organic hive. Second, it requires certification but there is little in the way of continual inspection, since that costs money and there is little incentive to recheck apiaries once they are certified. I know there are beekeepers in Maine who will certainly get certified. I know some who currently market their honey as organic, and I know what they actually are doing and that honey is less organic than mine. But how can you prove it? Even with "organic" produce, Consumer Reports finds pesticide residue, albeit in much lower percentages than non-organic. Yet the produce is certified as organic. It could be over spray or contact contamination or it could be fraud. That does not matter. Once certified, little follow-up. With honey it is different. The potential for fraud is high in the whole organic honey market. Tests of "organic" and "normal" honey have shown no difference. That makes sense if the beekeeper is following label directions and not starting honey production until well after the pesticide is removed. In most cases application is in the fall, so the time between treatments and supering can be 8-10 months. All the treatments are in the brood chamber, not the supers, so they will remain very clean, even in a treated yard. What then will stop those who are normally honest, but have a bad year in their "organic" yard (Varroa does not discriminate), from adding a bit from their other treated yards to insure they "break even"? After all it is only a couple of hundred gallons in a thousand (fill in the numbers depending on the ethical level). "The honey is the same purity and I process it the same so the product is the same and no one is hurt. And I do have to feed the kids." There is no way to determine the yield from an organic yard unless you have an inspector there through the whole process. Just think of the variability in our own colonies and apiaries. I have only described a well intentioned, normally honest but under pressure beekeeper. For the dishonest, Organic Honey is a goldmine. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:10:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: SHB traps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Harper said "I have also found out that the fire ant traps you use on truck loads of bees for Almond pollination work also." Charlie, can you tell us more...? Do these have a mechanism for actually attracting the beetles? Can you use them outside a hive, but in a yard? How are the beetles killed? Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:21:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Should I throw the sugar water away? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Layne Westover wrote: > This reminds me > that, as I recall, cane sugar is good for bees and > beet sugar is not, for some reason. Make sure > you use cane sugar. Someone else probably > knows what is in beet sugar that makes it bad > for bees. (It's probably in the archives). Beet sugar has a higher percentage of ash than cane sugar, so you have the problem of getting rid of solids. As Layne noted, beet sugar is not a good bee feed. Raw beet sugar is deadly. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:35:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: <3F7C3E65.7070205@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 2 Oct 2003 at 11:04, Bill Truesdell wrote: > Christine Gray wrote: > > > From: "Bob Harrison" " I also believe that there is no such thing as organic > > honey." > > > > > > This smacks too much of trying to resist change - 'what I already sell is > > all anyone should need'. > > I am with Bob. It is not any resistance to change, but an acknowledgment > that there really is no such thing as organic honey. I'll vote with Bob as well. It's not fear or resistance to change, but honesty. There may be remote areas that *could* produce organic honey, but my own experience (acknowledged all east of the Mississippi), I could never honestly claim "organic" for any honey that I ever produced. If I took the bees to places that would be more apt to be organic, such as the remoter regions of the Blue Ridge Mountains, or the Adirondaks, they would starve for much of the year. Besides these mountains actually act as pollution filters for the prevailing winds anyway. I place a lot of my own confidence (and have told my customers so) in the fact that bees have a self cleansing mechanism to get rid of pesticides in honey. Honey is produced internally, therefore if there is a poison in the nectar, the bees usually die, and the batch is lost. This one simple fact keeps honey remarkably pure. I also am aware of several "organic" products on the markets right now that are simply scams. Their honey is no different than mine. One major packer implies that all their honey is produced by wild bees, and is harvested from trees, not hives. If you believe that, I have a used car to sell you. Pollen, however, does not have the cleansing mechanism. Pesticides are naturally concentrated in pollens, and I would not trust any pollen produced along the East Coast without testing. Many beekeepers simply do not recognize low level poisoning of their bees, and any pollen collected at such a time could well be badly contaminated. I also told my customers, who asked for pollen, why I declined to do it. The only time I would dare to produce pollen would be early in the spring long before any spraying occurs, and that is when the bees need the pollen most, for spring build-up. Dave Green in SC USA -Thinking honesty is the best policy. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:57:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: faruk aytekin Subject: propolis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello All I am Faruk Aytekin, ý am a beekeeper who produce honey, polen propolis etc. by absolutely natural ways.altough ý produce polen and propolis as a raw material, ý dont know the ways to process them.ý couldnt reach any information about processing especially propolis. ý would be very grateful if you help me about getting information. Best Regards, Faruk Aytekin. Adress: kazýmdirik mah. 161 sok. no: 18 k: 3 d:5 35040 Bornova/ Ýzmir Turkey e-mail: faruk_aytekin@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:14:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: SHB traps In-Reply-To: <009201c388f7$42977e30$ece9d518@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Havent used them myself as I don't have beetels yet, this is what I have heard, you put them on the bottom board beetles like dark places they have a stickey trap material that traps the beetle (no pestcides). Lloyd Spear wrote: >Charlie, can you tell us more...? Do these have a mechanism for actually >attracting the beetles? Can you use them outside a hive, but in a yard? >How are the beetles killed? > > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:14:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: New Small Hive Beetle trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How does it work? The trap is designed to sit on a bottom board. The Trap is a tray that you half fill with vegetable oil. The lid has around 300 slots. The SHB suffocates in the oil. Dadant in High Springs, FLA. has got the traps for sale now at 1-877-832-3268. The trap is too new for the 2003 catalog & web site I believe. I also do not believe the other outlets are selling the trap yet but maybe Dadant will comment? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:41:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Wave Subject: organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I recall (from several years back) when attempting to certify my farm organic, the certifying agency at that time told me I needed 5 miles surrounding my hives (from all directions!) to insure bees would only forage from my fields. We have an 80 acre farm and were told this was not enough land. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:42:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Wave Subject: organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, didn't sign my post on organic certification. Chris, Illinois beekeeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 20:42:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Should I throw the sugar water away? Why boil, or even heat, the water. Sugar will dissolve perfectly well in cold water if you agitate it. I used to use an old washing machine - 25kg sugar made up to 9 gallons with cold water and agitate for 15 minutes - before I went over to using Bakers' fondant. Agitation costs far less that heat and is better for the bees - and for the environment. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 20:35:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: New Small Hive Beetle trap Aaronsaid: > Have you seen it? How does it work? The beetles check in but the don't > check out? Chemicals involved? Mechanical? > > Tell us more, tell us more! But will it catch varroa? No-one, as far as I am aware, seems to have come up with that as an idea (except by using drone brood). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:36:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Inger Lamb Subject: fire dept. fundraising opportunity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Honey and Biscuits Breakfast Fundraising Opportunity=20 Looking for new and exciting ideas to raise funds for your local = department? The National Volunteer Fire Council and the National Honey Board, a = group dedicated to help educate consumers regarding honey and promote its use, have partnered to provide a fundraising opportunity through hosting a = Honey and Biscuits breakfast in your area!=20 What is it? Honey and Biscuits is a new twist on an old favorite - pancake = breakfasts - and the National Honey Board has step-by-step instructions to help = people organize breakfasts across the country.=20 Learn How! To find out more about how your department can host one of these events, Click here to view the = kit and print out the materials you'll need to get started, including a = "how-to" kit with everything from media materials and recipes, to sample artwork, advertising and tickets.=20 Sign Up Now! Be one of the first 75 to get a volunteer organization to commit to the breakfast and you'll be eligible for $250 to help with the up-front = costs! Sign up by contacting the National Honey Board at breakfast@nhb.org or = call them at 1(888) 682-2337 (682-BEES).=20 =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:45:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris said: As I recall (from several years back) when attempting to certify my farm organic, the certifying agency at that time told me I needed 5 miles surrounding my hives (from all directions!) to insure bees would only forage from my fields. We have an 80 acre farm and were told this was not enough land. Not to worry Chris a friend of mine is working on a "Organic honey certification" you can get off the internet! No pesky inspections or rules! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:21:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tom barrett Subject: SHB Trap Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All I have been following the thread on the SHB. Thankfully we do not to my knowledge have these pests yet in Ireland. But does the trap give adequate control? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:45:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tom barrett Subject: Fungi and varroa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All I listened to Brenda Ball in Ljubljana answering questions on the status of the research into using fungi to control varroa. I got the impression that it may take years to arrive at a determination on the viability of this approach. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 18:12:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Funny honey taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I understand Bob's argument, then his logic is basically this: because we can't really guarantee the purity of a given product, then we should make no real effort to do so, and offer no distinction to those who actually try. Although I do agree that certified organic standards are very difficult to achieve, I think we can look to the opposite for a baseline comparison. I have often made mental note of the thousands of acres of forage on divided highways (sweet clover, crown vetch, trefoil, etc.), wondering how much honey could be made from this untapped resource. I've also noticed some beautiful forage around dumps, wastewater treatment plants, and transfer stations (all such hive locations are forbidden in organic standards). I would never deliberately place hives in such environs simply because I couldn't sell such honey with a clear conscience. Undoubtedly, however, some beekepers do not share such pangs of conscience. Certified organic standards are quite rigid, and would seem to limit bees' access to undesirable elements. As such, to make the effort to adhere to certified organic principles simply places one in a different marketing camp. If a savvy beekeeper wishes to avail themselves of such a market, so be it. I have no real ambition to participate in organic standards, simply because most of Vermont is a bit too populated to insure the necessary minimum distances from potential contamination, not to mention the difficulties of organic mite control. If someone were willing to do the legwork to find such sites, adhere to such stringent standards, and take the obvious lumps from mite losses, why shouldn't they enjoy a special market status, and the obvious premium price for their product? Isn't this at the heart of what we call "free market enterprise"? Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 20:15:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Longevity of feral bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Since the mite it's been harder, but the last couple of > years have been better.......It seems as if the swarms were smaller > in size than I remembered and if I did get a big prime swarm in May > they would cast a swarm in late June or July. I never had this happen > before." Sounds like AHB. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:18:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Can we police the organic honey market? (was Funny honey taste) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kurt said: If I understand Bob's argument, then his logic is basically this: because we can't really guarantee the purity of a given product, then we should make no real effort to do so, and offer no distinction to those who actually try. We need to look at the end product! The end product is what needs to be looked at. How hard will it be for China to say all their honey is organic and use the organic label? Can we prove otherwise? Can we prove any honey with the organic label is not organic? The organic food industry was estimated at 9 billion dollars last year in the U.S. I was told ( and growing!) Kurt said: Certified organic standards are quite rigid, Rigid? I place bees on many farms. I find one location which meets the certified organic standard. I get certified. The whole system is on the honor system. If I was dishonest I could sell my whole crop as "organic honey". Certified organic in my opinion does not apply to honey. Many organic farmers agree! ALL HONEY IS SUPPOSED TO BE PURE HONEY WITH ZERO CONTAMINENTS! Honey is on a three year watch by the FDA because of the China problem. I have been told all honey checked so far from U.S. producers passes with flying colors (except contaminated Chinese honey brought in illegally). Do we really need to sell the organic honey hype to the U.S. consumer to simply get a higher price for our honey? Instead of putting a label that the honey is supposed to be organic why not have the FDA do random checks for purity? Thousands of pounds of contaminated Chinese honey has been sold and consumed in the U.S. already because those in charge of inspecting our food supply dropped the ball. Are these the people which will police organic honey? Always remember the antibiotic found in Chinese honey was found by accident. Does anyone really know how long antibiotic contaminated chinese honey has been coming into the U.K. , Canada or the U.S. undetected? Hmmm. Check out the article "Tainted Chinese Honey " on page 41 of the Oct. Bee Culture! Excellent! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:33:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: SHB Trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom asks: But does the trap give adequate control? To early to tell but the trap does trap SHB. Is reusable and is filled with non toxic vegetable oil from the kitchen. Simple but effective. I believe the inventor did an excellent job! The trap needs to be monitored regularly like you would a mouse trap and KEEP STRONG HIVES. Bobs opinion: Small hive beetle lives outside the hive most of the time and when SHb see a weak hive unable to defend itself SHb flies in and lays eggs. In the above scenario a trap would be of little use! The trap is for mature beetles trying to hide from bees trying to evict SHb from the hive and will not trap the larva of the small hive beetle in my opinion. Bob Ps. Tom send me a update on your use of FGMO if you can. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 08:13:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Funny honey taste In-Reply-To: <002b01c38932$42453db0$f8ad72d8@SOD> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <002b01c38932$42453db0$f8ad72d8@SOD>, Todd writes >If I understand Bob's argument, then his logic is basically this: because we >can't really guarantee the purity of a given product, then we should make no >real effort to do so, and offer no distinction to those who actually try. No distinction should be offered under the circumstances you describe. If they cannot guarantee additional purity then they should not be allowed to imply it either. Anything else is nothing more than a deliberate negative slur against other beekeepers products. However, this purity argument is missing the point about organic. It is about lifestyle choices rather than purity. The production system must be based on only natural inputs. Note the use of 'natural' rather than the term 'soft' used by those of a green persuasion, as the 'soft/hard' terminology is in many ways bogus, substituted for 'natural/synthetic'. The consumer buys into this however because, in many cases, they believe they are getting a purer product, and it is not necessarily true. They also are sold on the organic system as a valid choice for the future wellbeing of the world. As such they are prepared to pay extra for what they want. What they are supporting is what a core group at the outset of the organic movement saw as a sustainable system of production for the future. They are prepared to pay your price for doing things the way they want them done, and NOT for someone to come along who does things at variance with their ideas and tell them that their product is just as organic because it is as pure. Not the issue. When you read the regulations there is a whole heap more in there though than just a practical clean production system. It is actually quite political. >If a savvy beekeeper wishes to avail themselves of such a market, so >be it. Not quite sure how savvy they are. Full organic beekeeping seems in some ways to border on animal cruelty itself. I have a unit in trial conversion, and am considering pulling them out of it as I am distressed at their condition as against those being looked after conventionally. They are undernourished and understrength compared to the well fed and appropriately medicated colonies nearby, and the winter prognosis is poor. (Mainly due to intense mite pressure in peak of first wave, and a drought in the area they are situated meaning very little late forage and little late brood.) Such suffering is alien to my way of thinking, yet their death is ideallogically pure. Figure that out in line with the animal rights ideals enshrined in the regulations. Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 09:43:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bill Truesdell" (under 'Funny honey taste') "> I am with Bob (under 'Organic honey') . It is not any resistance to change, but an acknowledgment that there really is no such thing as organic honey. For the dishonest, Organic Honey is a goldmine." I was just ruminating in my own earlier post - let me make a proposal. 'A market for 'organic' is here - some people do want some assurance on higher food standards and will pay. So bekeepers do need to respond somehow. As has been said, very few beekeepers indeed can give assurances on the sources their bees fly to, and so cannot qualify as 'organic producers' - but many more could establish an alternative standard based on not applying any chemicals to the hive plus no sugar feeding. This standard would need another name - possibly 'guaranteed natural' (but trying to get a concept into a few words is always difficult). Beekeepers could then try to educate the public , saying 'organic' is not really the appropriate term for produce from an animal that flies freely (as it is not verifiable) , so we beekeepers offer 'guaranteed natural' to give verifiable assurances on the standards applied to the production process subsequent to the collection of the nectar. Then we don't just sound negative and dismissive of the consumer's interests. Is there any body however within world beekeeping that is in a position to set the standards that would define a new category of honey as say 'guaranteed natural'? If it is only given a different meaning by each indiviual beekeeper then the classification will never get established with the consumer and will fail to establish effective competion with (imported) 'organic honey'. If there is no such body, could we arrive at a definition on Bee-L that we could print on subsidiary labels and put on our jars as a way to start countering competition from (dubious) 'organic honey'? Bob has th experience and measured approach to problems to be able to make the first proposal. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 05:41:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Bower Subject: Re: Should I throw the sugar water away? Peter: I have got to ask. Why is agitation of sugar water better for the bees and better for the environment? While you're at it, would you like to give some specifics about your washing machine method? I can understand the process of getting the water and sugar in but getting the sugar syrup out sounds as if it could present some difficulties? Thanks, Kurt Bower Julian, NC USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:51:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <000201c3898b$4706e700$fc3274d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: > Is there any body however within world beekeeping that is in a position to > set the standards that would define a new category of honey as say > 'guaranteed natural'? If it is only given a different meaning by each > indiviual beekeeper then the classification will never get established with > the consumer and will fail to establish effective competion with (imported) > 'organic honey'. My guess is that you could call it that now, no matter what you do to the bees since honey is natural. > If there is no such body, could we arrive at a definition on Bee-L that we > could print on subsidiary labels and put on our jars as a way to start > countering competition from (dubious) 'organic honey'? Bob has th > experience and measured approach to problems to be able to make the first > proposal. The problem is you can have as many definitions and rules as you wish, but it does not get around the problem that almost all honey will pass basic purity tests. There are those in Maine who sell "Blueberry" honey. There is such a variety of color and taste that it is difficult to believe blueberry nectar varies so much from the same plant. I have blueberries in my area so it is blueberry honey, along with everything else. If people can get by with what I consider deceptive labels in something that can be seen fairly easily, how can you police honey that is labeled, "natural", "organic", "pesticide free" or even "I use chemicals to kill bugs" when there is no difference between any of the honeys? I was in on the early setting of standards for organic honey. I disagreed with the standards then (and they have not changed much) and felt the real purpose had everything to do with the movement and little to do with the actual purity of honey. I also knew that those who labeled their honey "organic" cheated since they had to treat for varroa just like I did. You cannot police the problem if the end product is the same. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:59:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Naturally Grown honey... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In the October issue of Bee Culture magazine, in the article on Organic Honey, there is mention of a group called "Certified Naturally Grown". These people have been checked out by USDA, and others, as meeting criteria of, yes, Certified Naturally Grown". They are not the same as organic, they are different. Read the article. Go to the web page, naturallygrown.org, and check it out. They do not yet have a class for honey, but we are working on one that will meet the same criteria they have for their other crops. If anybody on this list has attainable thoughts on naturally grown honey, please send them to me, and the list if you feel so inclined, and they will be thrown into the 'naturally grown' stew so to speak and added to those already in the kettle. This category of honey production is being developed because the main difficulty in producing organic honey is location, location, location. We hope to have this complete by spring, but that may not happen. This listing will not be the end all defination of naturally grown, but reinventing the wheel again, and again and again seems futile to me. But, I'd rather have, I guess, too many choices than too few. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:10:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 1 Oct 2003 to 2 Oct 2003 (#2003-271) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards said: "But will it catch varroa? No-one, as far as I am aware, seems to have come up with that as an idea (except by using drone brood)." If the varroa fall between the slots I'm pretty sure they can't swim in cooking oil. MIKE :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:14:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Should I throw the sugar water away? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> This reminds me >> that, as I recall, cane sugar is good for bees and >> beet sugar is not, for some reason. Make sure >> you use cane sugar. Beet sugar has been used for many years in Alberta as winter feed, with great success. I use it. That is what has been available, most of the time. I believe also that beet sugar has compared favourably to HFCS in lab tests in Canada for winter feed, producing significantly longer lives in caged bees than type 55 HFCS. As for colour, the sugar syrup we buy -- premixed from the factory -- is not perfectly colourless. It has a distinctly dark tint compared to HFCS when in a 1,250 gallon poly tank, but the difference is not that noticable when in a small pail. As for whether sucrose inverts in hot water, I wonder. The syrup we buy is mixed by the factory at over 130 degrees F and is either crystal sugar rehydrated or the syrup from refining, just before being dried to crystal form, depending on the season. Also, my understanding is that considerable heat is used in the processing of the beets -- it seems to me that they are boiled at some stage in the process, so I personally doubt the veracity of statements about inversion of sucrose by heat alone. At any rate, just because something is written somewhere does not make it true, any more than my writing that it is not true makes it not true. Does anyone know for sure under what conditions, if any, sugar will invert with heat in water, without the aid of other agents or cataysts? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 08:55:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: Fungi and varroa In-Reply-To: <200310030406.h933rK7c022029@listserv.albany.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 12:00 AM, Automatic digest processor wrote: > Fungi and varroa Have to jump in here! I work with Entomopathogenic fungi, have for the past 15 years, here with USDA at Cornell. We have a collection in liquid nitrogen of over 5000 different fungi thought to be of interest in fungal outbreaks, collected from around the world . Our basic premise is to utilize these fungi for biocontrol. In fact we have had several successes. I was involved with the fungi that now has been found throughout the NE which is thought to contribute greatly to the control of Gypsy Moth. Other Entomopathogenic species have been registered for various pests & crops as mycoinsecticides. They are spread by spraying spores on the crop. This is in fact biowarfare on insects. The object is to find a fungi species (strain) that is insect specific and determine how to utilize it against the target host, with minimal impact on the crop or nontarget species. Often this is not as easy as one might imagine. We usually start with testing the effect of a fungi against known beneficial insects. Starting with the Honey Bee, of course! Often in the lab--stressed bees coupled with high enough dose can produce infections--where in the field with differing conditions a high dose would not normally be significant --for example high temperatures or UV light can deactivate some fungi. To end this my concern with fungal control of Varroa would revolve around several factors. First as someone pointed out--I have seen a paper or journal article that indicated one of the biggest contaminants in honey is mold spores--would we want to add another fungal spore to the mix, however benign (to mammals)? Second fungi in my experience are not as effective as a good insecticide. For example on my 1/3 acre plots I need to use 260 gms of fungus in 15 gallons, Beauvaria bassiana, for control of Leps (moths & butterflies) on cabbage. This produces 70 percent control on a good spray week. My chemical plot (same size) gets 4.67 mls in 15 gallons, which produces 95+ percent control. If you cannot vision a 1/3 acre, its about 1000 head of cabbage. That 4+ mls is so little and the cabbage are pristine--it is a chemical that is very mammalian safe. Hard to imagine that this amount could produce enough hazardous residue for undue concern. ( I'd hate to eat enough cabbage to ingest the LD50) Finally (i've already gone further than I had originally anticipated) Fungi that can survive at temperatures close to human body temperature require special care. Would not want it to jump host. 98.6 vs 96.8 leaves me a bit worried looking at some of these species. Fungal infections are not easy to get rid of by us humans. However, I would like to see the work done with this fungi as it would be of interest academically, certainly contributing to our knowledge of these fungi. We need all the alternatives tools that we can find. Safe, non-contaminating bio active agents do have a growing place in agriculture! Mike Griggs Entomologist/ Support Scientist Plant Protection Research Unit USDA ARS, U.S. Plant, Soil & Nutrition Lab. Tower Road, Ithaca, NY 14853 http://www.ppru.cornell.edu/PPRU.htm phone: 607-255-1085 fax: 607-255-1132 email: mhg3@cornell.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 15:30:40 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <3F7D62D3.3080807@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > My guess is that you could call it that now, no > matter what you do to > the bees since honey is natural. Honey is natural : true (as far it is not sugar honey at least). But for once, I'm afraid I have to disagree - a little - with you. Natural does not mean organic. "Whatever you do to bees" do not guaranty natural even if honey still comes from nectar. Otherwise, one could use the same statement for almost all crops. I guess a carrot is always carrot, always naturally grown from earth... and a salad as well. Except GMOs, one could say his crop is "natural"...whatever the pratices one use ? It may be legal right now, but it does not sound honest. > The problem is you can have as many definitions and > rules as you wish, > but it does not get around the problem that almost > all honey will pass > basic purity tests. OK, an non organic can be (and should be, otherwise it should not be sold) as safe as an organic product. But two things : 1. safety standards (as all standards) are moving limits, dependent on scientific knowledge, lobbying, analytical capacity (detection limit), analysis costs, monitoring parameters chosen... and so on. A "purity" test is then a necessary relative minimum safety standard... not a sufficient quality indicator. For example, according to some studies in Danmark I remember, sperm in organic products eaters was better (in quantity and in quality) than in non organic (but safe as well) products eaters. Sorry I do not remember the exact reference and I do not have the time to check it right now. 2. when I buy an organic product, I do not just buy an a priori free chemical product (since no analysis were performed to confirm this point), but I merely also buy a certain philosophy of living, a way to produce... in other terms I also want to influence the kind of society I want to live in. The end product can be the same, I do not care so much... as far as I am convinced the organic one is less polluting. > There are those in Maine who sell "Blueberry" honey. > There is such a > variety of color and taste that it is difficult to > believe blueberry > nectar varies so much from the same plant. So true for so many honeys. The worse is only honesty will preserve our long term market. If our labels are lying, why should customers buy our honey at higher prices instead of cheap imported honey ? Customers trust (or confidence, what is the right word ?) is an - almost - priceless graal, isn't it ? > how can you police > honey that is labeled, "natural", "organic", > "pesticide free" or even "I > use chemicals to kill bugs" when there is no > difference between any of > the honeys? To many confusing concepts, IMHO. But in the same way, it is another stong reason to ask for one "reasonable" certification, widely advertised and explained to customers, in order to rule the actual anarchic situation : all constraints (almost anachievable organic standards in most areas) or nothing (do what you want and label it "natural local honey"). > I also knew > that those who > labeled their honey "organic" cheated since they had > to treat for varroa > just like I did. ... which let me think : a bit less of stringent rules and a lot more of stringent controls would certainly be better for the "organic label" credibility . Hervé Le Rucher d'Émélys www.emelys.com Laval, Quebec, Canada ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 09:43:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Should I throw the sugar water away? In-Reply-To: <013f01c389a8$fadaa510$29b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > At any rate, just because something is written somewhere does not make > it true, any more than my writing that it is not true makes it not true. Nick Calderone. I trust what he writes. (The Bee Files, "Stress" vol 128 July 1999) > Does anyone know for sure under what conditions, if any, sugar will > invert with heat in water, without the aid of other agents or cataysts? > Interesting that invert sugar in solution is golden in color so that may be what happened. Inversion does require acid but that is not too hard to come by since most water supplies, especially rural, are not neutral. Ran a quick test on our tap water and it is acidic. So unless I neutralize my water, if I boil a sugar solution, I will get inversion. which explains the golden color I also got way back when. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 08:30:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, One of the best articles I have read concerning "organic honey" was published in the Sept. issue of the American Bee Journal pg. 685 by Rich Schell , lawyer and small farm owner trying to get a certified organic certification for his farm. Rich explains the gray area which bees fall under in federal organic standards. The federal law (organic food production act of 1990) places honeybees in the same catagory as livestock (which Rich questions in the article ). The law clearly states all livestock must be contained on certified organic land and fed only certified organic food. Would not syrup have to come from certified organic cane sugar if sugar was fed? >From the article: " True organic production requires a degree of certainty which it may be argued simply can not exist in the real world of beekeeping" (which is Bob's position). Rich also states: "bees are not true livestock because their foraging patterns CANNOT BE CONTROLLED" (which is the number one rule in raising organic poultry, beef and hogs). While searching the web this morning looking for the Kansas Honey producers web site to see the schedule for their upcoming meeting the below sponsered link came up. "Bulk organic honey from Argentina . Product available for export." I predict a flood of pre bottled and bulk organic honey to hit the U.S. next year. Getting a certifed organic certification for the migratory beekeeper is easy because they travel and sit their bees in many remote areas. Getting those areas remote areas certified can be as easy as a phone call to the local certified organic certification people and giving the location address. Mailing a check and getting the certification back by return mail. A list of those agencies are on page 686 of the ABJ article. What you do with your certification is up to each U.S. honey producer. The fine for abuse as written by Rich Schell on page 685 of his article is 10,000 U.S.. The same fine as using non USDA approved peticides in a beehive. The fine did not stop the use of non USDA approved methods from being commonly used in the U.S. as a search of the archives will quickly prove even though a mass spec test will quickly show missuse. With no way to detect "non organic honey" from "organic" in testing abuse will in my opinion run wild by the dishonest only wanting the organic label to create huge profits . Getting the certification for non migratory beekeepers in areas of California such as the valley would almost be impossible in my opinion. Are we all going to have to jump through the (in my opinion phoney!) certified organic hoop to compete with unchecked and unverified "certified organic foreign honey"? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 09:15:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, At the national meetings of The American Honey producers and The American Beekeeping Federation in January 2004 several honey producers have said they were going to ask for their organizations to get honey pulled from the federal organic certifcations (1990 law ) . Both organizations have got the money, influance in Washington and lawyers to get the job done if the members want the law changed! Maybe many members of the above like honey included in the new law. I do not know? If so then neither organization will act. Every beekeeper I have talked to believes all other products certified organic are ok under the current law. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 15:16:12 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Waldemar Galka Subject: Tap water & fluoride. [ Was: Should I throw the sugar water a way?] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This posting made me remember someone mentioning here that flouride shortens the lifespan of honeybees. I use village water which is slightly chlorinated and has fluoride added to it. I understand that chlorine is not bad for bees but can someone point to references on the influence of fluoride on bees? Thank you. Waldemar Long Island, NY PS. It would be a bit inconvenient but I could collect rain water. allen dick wrote: > At any rate, just because something is written somewhere does not make > it true, any more than my writing that it is not true makes it not true. Nick Calderone. I trust what he writes. (The Bee Files, "Stress" vol 128 July 1999) > Does anyone know for sure under what conditions, if any, sugar will > invert with heat in water, without the aid of other agents or cataysts? > Interesting that invert sugar in solution is golden in color so that may be what happened. Inversion does require acid but that is not too hard to come by since most water supplies, especially rural, are not neutral. Ran a quick test on our tap water and it is acidic. So unless I neutralize my water, if I boil a sugar solution, I will get inversion. which explains the golden color I also got way back when. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 18:44:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Hershner Subject: Re: Angel Bottles MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit They have an ad in the new BeeCulture (p27) Plastics Packaging Concept PO Box 617 Garden city, MO 64747 816-862-8703 I bought 1400 of them last season, and they did the custom printing of the labels as well. We use them to promote a local children's church camp and foster children charity. They really sell well. The bottle is only 10 oz though, not 1 pound. Greg Hershner North Fork Bee Farm Warrensville, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue" To: Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 8:40 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Angel Bottles > Does anybody know any sources for purchasing the Angel (shaped) honey > bottles? I'm also looking for a source for the labels. I'd appreciate any > sources! > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:07:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Should I throw the sugar water away? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Nick Calderone. I trust what he writes. (The Bee Files, "Stress" vol > 128 July 1999) I'd love to see an exact quote. Having fed many tankerloads over the years and having been concerned about these things for a decade, I've never heard this verified. I suspect this interpretation is based on misreading something mentioning the use of heat AND acid or enzymes. > Interesting that invert sugar in solution is golden in color so that > may be what happened. Again, this is based on assumptions that are not supportable, in my experience. The 1,250 imperial gallon poly tank of invert sugar sitting in my yard is as white as water and *much* whiter than the tank of 67% sucrose that sat beside it. There are brands of invert on the market for table use that are flavoured with molasses, and that is where people go wrong. There are also perfectly white invert syrups on the same shelf, but they are less noticed. Actual pure invert can be water white -- less than 2 mm. > Inversion does require acid but that is not too hard > to come by since most water supplies, especially rural, are not > neutral. I am not sure of the quantity of the acid involved, but my understanding is that it would take more than what is average tap water. I know we have chemists here, so maybe they can inform us. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Back from the Shuswap houseboat trip. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:47:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <000701c389b8$d6a60c60$57a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As of last week, the Argentine government is not shipping anymore honey to the USA until they find out how widespread their contamination problem might be Any body know more about this ???? Charlie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:56:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Re: propolis. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message was originally submitted by amoody@UALBERTA.CA and has been edited to removed uneccessary quoted material from the original. (See guidelines) --- Faruk , This is the best site I've found so far for processing propolis. I assume that you must clean it using alcohol first if you want to get rid of the bee bits. http://www.apitherapy.com/propprep.htm peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:10:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: honeybee expo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 2004 Honeybee Expo February 7 2004 at West Virginia University at Parkersburg on Route 47 We had a good first year at the Expo with over 100 beekeepers attending. Plans are now under way to make the Second Annual Honeybee Expo bigger and better. Keep checking this page to keep abreast of this great beekeeping event as it unfolds. Location of WVUP The red star is the location of the campus. It is visible from WV. 47. > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:27:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sprachen Sie Deutch? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > (It's about spraying Oxalic Acid mixed with syrup, but I want to > verify the dosage and application, just to be sure) FWIW, oxalic acid, and drizzling have been covered in the past on BEE-L (225 hits for 'oxalic' with substring checked), and a collection of links has long been available from http://www.honeybeeworld.com/formic/ This latter site points to some pages that may be English translations of some of the German language material. For syrup application, there have been a number of formulations recommended, and some confusion about the exact concentration to use. AFAIK, all reports indicate that syrup application should be done once, and not be repeated until another season has passed due to cumulative effect on the bees. The evaporative method apparently has no such warnings. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:36:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Re: Turkish honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message was originally submitted by maurice.kuyckx@PANDORA.BE to the BEE-L list and edited to remove extraneous parts of previous messages (See Guidelines). --- Msg to Mr. E.A. VOGT, Please try : http://www.olivefarm.com/index.php/Turkish-Honey/cats/cat_id/208?PHPSESSID=e1a8b0d9f3528d69a628a54bb9f59aa9 and http://www.squ.edu.om/mj/Archive/Oct_00/Honey/ Perhaps it helps Greetings Maurice from Belgium -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:19:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charlie said: As of last week, the Argentine government is not shipping anymore honey to the USA until they find out how widespread their contamination problem might be Charlie asked: Any body know more about this ???? I have only been told there is a problem. We are only into year one of a three year watch of honey by the FDA. Wake up importers! Rumors are that the problem was with honey in drums with the certified organic label but only rumors so far. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 14:18:08 +0200 Reply-To: Derek Steed Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Derek Steed Subject: Re: Funny honey taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hallo Todd, I´m the beekeeper / paintman who likes solvent-borne coatings.I don´t really understand this organic honey thing. Obviously you can´t know exactly where your bees have been and next year it may well be different -same colony, same apiary, same time of year- due to weather, crop rotation, crop spraying, what-have-you.Despite this, honey analysis can, for one harvest, give a very good idea of the level of contamination, at least for those substances which are known and can be analysed without it costing a fortune. I use beeswax which comes with an analysis so varroacides, PDB etc.are excluded from my foundation. I treat my hives with organic acids, essential oils and thymol. This still leaves the problem of insecticides and fungicides, particularly those sprayed into open blossom ( e.g. rapeseed) and this can change from year to year.However,if your local government departments are deciding in an arbitrary manner which regions / areas shall be excluded from organic honey production then you have a problem.Such regulations could hardly stand up in a court of law, what would they supply as evidence? An analysis of ones own honey from one apiary should indicate if there are general problems e.g high heavy metal concentrations.I say if there is no such thing as organic honey then organic foodstuffs full stop do not exist but this is throwing the child out with the bathwater and kills any attempt to improve matters.I suspect that the bees themselves are the best indicators of environmental pollution.Currently the seed treatment Gaucho ( imidochloride ) is in question here in Europe, it is suspected of causing nerve damage in bees, disorientation etc.No-one is talking ( yet ) of effects upon humans . Regards Derek Steed :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 14:46:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rosalind James Subject: Fungi and Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am new to this ListServ, but it has been brought to my attention that this group has been discussing the use of fungi to control varroa mites, so I thought I would give you an update as to where the USDA is on this research. I am a Research Entomologist (Insect Pathologist) at the USDA Agricultural Research Service's Bee Biology and Systematics Lab in Logan, UT. I am currently working on developing a microbial control for varroa mites, that means, yes, the use of fungi for controlling varroa. As with any chemical control, we are concerned about the safety of this type of control, and we are concerned about it's effectiveness, also. It takes years to develop a new control method, but we are now at the point of doing field tests in collaboration with Dadant to determine effective doses and methods for application. The biggest problems associated with marketing such a product are actually getting EPA registration, which is very expensive, and developing a cost effective production method for the fungi. Two different fungi have been patented (or patent pending) in the U.S. At the USDA, we have screened several fungi to come up with our choices. It is true that most fungi that infect insects will not infect at hive temperatures (too warm), but we have selected species and strains that will. The truth of the matter is, it is unlikely that these fungi hang around in a hive forever once they are introduced. It would be nice, but not likely to happen. These fungi just are not able to survive and grow that well in the hive environment. In order for the fungus to stay in the hive for years, it would need a large number of live hosts (varroa) to transmit the disease. Although you might think you have a lot of mites, if the fungus works as well as we would like it to, it will kill off it's hosts, and then it will die as well. For this reason, the fungus will have to be reapplied to the hive again. We have not determined the frequency that this needs to be done, but it likely will be similar to chemical applications - say once or twice a year. I stared this research at the Beneficial Insects Research Laboratory in Weslaco, TX, but about 2 years ago, I moved to the Logan Bee Biology and Systematics Laboratory. UC Davis and the USDA-ARS laboratory in France have also recently begun collaborating with us on this research. Rosalind James, PhD :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 16:57:17 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Mosquito Spraying In Eastern Virginia Starts Monday October 6th Be Advised... Aerial spraying to begin on Monday, October 6th was announced by the Virginia State Apiarist (Keith Tignor) at 3:21pm today (Friday, October 3rd). I know Keith, so I'd guess that he was not informed until 3:20pm, and sent the message out as quickly as he could. Dontcha just love the advance notice? The area to be sprayed is "Eastern Virginia". Counties are listed below. The time of spraying is 6:30pm to 11:00pm, which is "close", but is still a violation of EPA label requirements, given that the sun sets on October 6th at 6:54pm. The sun will not set at 6:30pm or later until on October 24. If you know any beekeepers in Eastern Virginia, you may want to forward this to them or call them. Temperatures for the spraying period are within bee flight range (for example, Norfolk, VA had a high of 67°F and a low of 53°F yesterday), so screening entrances seems to be the only practical defense. jim (In WESTERN Virginia, where there are rumors of at least one beekeeper with an FIM-92 Stinger missile ready to deal with any attempted daylight aerial spraying.) =========================================================== > [mailto:VIRGINIABEEKEEPER@LISTSERV.VT.EDU] On Behalf Of Keith Tignor > Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 3:21 PM > Subject: Mosquito Control Schedule in Virginia > > > It's been a long summer with above normal rainfall throughout > the state. Hurricane Isabel is adding to the misery. The > Virginia Department of Health (VDH) is scheduling aerial > mosquito pesticide application in high risk areas in response > to increased health risks due to mosquito populations after > Hurricane Isabel. These include areas of high human > populations on wet or low lying land. Beekeepers in such > areas should take proper precautions to protect their bees > and themselves from adverse effects of the pesticide. A VDH > public release regarding the control program is attached to > this email. > > VDH is working with local agencies to reduce negative impacts > of pesticides to the bee population while keeping mosquito > dangers at a minimum. Aerial application will be restricted > to between 6:30 pm and 11:00 pm beginning next Monday, > October 6. Notification of spray activity will be published > in area newspapers, with local health/mosquito control > agencies, and other appropriate means. 251,000 sq. miles in > approximately 20 Counties and Cities have been identified as > high risk areas for mosquito concerns. Applications will not > occur is temperatures are below 55 F or winds greater than 10 > mph. Your cooperation with state and local agencies benefit > you, the agencies, and the general public. > > Areas currently being considered for mosquito control by VDH > are: Brunswick Co., Caroline Co., Franklin City, > Fredericksburg City, Gloucester Co., Halifax Co., Isle of > Wight Co., James City Co., King George Co., Lancaster Co., > Mecklenberg Co., Poquoson Co., Portsmouth Co., Southampton > Co., Spotsylvania Co., Stafford Co., Suffolk City, Sussex > Co., and York Co. Again, only specific areas in these > localities are scheduled for pesticide application. Local > officials may be considering additional mosquito control > measures. Contact local health/mosquito control agencies to > determine if you or your hives will be directly affected by > the state or local programs. > > The pesticide to be used, Dibrom, is listed as highly toxic > to honey bees. The method of application planned by VDH is > designed to lower possible toxic effects to beneficial > insects and other natural resources in the state. To prevent > hive loss from pesticide poisoning move hives to a safe > location, at least 5 miles away from the spray area. > Unfortunately, this is not always practical or feasible. As > an alternative, bees may be confined for short periods to > reduce exposure to pesticides by sealing entrances to the > hive. Be sure the hive does not overheat. On warm days, cover > the hive with a wetable tarpaulin or blanket and water it > down periodically. The evaporation of the water will cool > down the hive. > > > Sincerely, > Keith Tignor > State Apiarist/Endangered Species Coordinator > > VA Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services > Office of Plant and Pest Services > P.O. Box 1163 > Richmond, VA 23218 > > Phone: (804) 786-3515 > Fax number: (804) 371-7793 > Website: www.vdacs.state.va.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 22:24:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 1 Oct 2003 to 2 Oct 2003 (#2003-271) "Mike" said: > If the varroa fall between the slots I'm pretty sure they can't swim in > cooking oil. MIKE Ok - give you that one! But I was thinking of something to attract them into a trap rather than relying on them to fall in - an open mesh floor would deal with fallers. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 22:22:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Should I throw the sugar water away? "Kurt Bower"asked: > Why is agitation of sugar water better for the bees and > better for the environment? As far as the bees are concerned, it is better than syrup that has been heated to a high temperature, e.g in making candy. I see no problems for the bees if it is heated up to boiling point and then cooled. Environmentally, agitation uses far less energy than heat. > While you're at it, would you like to give some specifics about your > washing machine method? I can understand the process of getting the water > and sugar in but getting the sugar syrup out sounds as if it could present > some difficulties? I used an old Hoover single tub washing machine with the agitator on the back wall. Removed the filter cover over the drain outlet in the bottom of the tub so that I could put a plug in to stop the sugar going into the pump (it will solidify in the pump and wreck it!). Add the sugar and cold water, turn on for 15 mins, remove the plug and pump out the syrup. The syrup will be slightly cloudy, but soon clears. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 22:35:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Fungi and varroa Mike Griggs raised several very relevant points about the possible dangers of using fungi to control varroa. My undestanding is that IACR and HRI in the UK have identified fungi that will control varroa, but are now conducting extensive research into any possible safety issues and this is the reason that we are unlikely to see any products on the market for some considerable time. There is also the issue of possible methods of delivery. Much work to be done. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 09:38:02 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been following the organic honey topics with some interest. The = following apply if you have been certified organic here in Australia. One aspect that has not come up so far is that if you clip the wing of = the queen bee in the hive, honey from that hive cannot be called = organic. If you buy a queen bee from a queen bee breeder who is not organically = certified, then the first extraction of honey from that hive cannot be = called organic but subsequent extractions can be called organic. Having discussed this a length in various circles, there is no rationale = for the above criteria as it applies to honey IMHO. They try to tell me = it is a lifestyle thing but what has that got to do with the "purity" of = the product. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 09:27:27 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Argentinean exports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have changed the topic name from organic honey. I have heard it is because of nitrofuran. Not sure how it got in honey or what it is used for in bees, if it is used. I also heard that it has been detected in honey from other countries as well. I was told that Argentinia is checking all honey now before it is exported. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 22:02:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Re: Should I throw the sugar water away? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I dug the sugar bag out of the trash and it said "Pure Cane Sugar" so I poured the sugar water into the feeder this morning. It was cold - the radio said 49 degrees - and there was no evidence of any bees around: none in the feeder, none visible on the front of the hive. I could not hear any humming. But perhaps the BeeMax Styrofoam hive absorbs sound more then wood. I checked tonight when I got home after dark and still no evidence of bees. I'll check tomorrow / Saturday at midday and if I don't see any bees I'll put on the gear and open the hive for a quick look just to make sure that they haven't shuffled off this mortal coil. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 21:56:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Sprachen Sie Deutch? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen, Good point. (Derek also emailed me another version and I thank him) I was actually reading all the articles on your “Formic” url, one of the best on the subject, in fact. Thinking the oxalic stuff is a bit new in America, I’ve been checking mostly on European sites--the Bee-L archives are not as inclusive--and as I did, a few questions came to my mind: 1. Most studies on oxalic acid, especially the crystal-evaporation method, seemed to have been done on conventional bottom boards, not on screened bottoms, thus making the dosage and efficacy unclear on the latter. 2. If trickling method is effective, why can’t be spraying atop effective as well, without breaking the cluster? Imagine a commercial operator with thousands of hives, going at it frame by frame. Interestingly, trickling and spraying use two different concoctions: the former, with syrup, and the latter, without. 3. I read about a German beekeeper using, a la formic pad, sort of the shop-towel-emersion method: soaking paper towels into alcohol and oxalic solution, drying the towels, and putting them inside the hives, like Oxa- mite-strips. But the details were not available. I would like to know more about this technique. 4. Funny how some report about oxalic-resistant mites in Europe. How could that be? Have mites come up with a stronger proboscis so quickly? Similarly, despite some fine-tuned research, there are lots of confusing/conflicting mis/disinformation on OA (oxalic acid) still, just like any other treatment, perhaps. 5. And to say the obvious, we seem to be lagging behind on this issue. Yoon Shawnee, OK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 18:54:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Funny honey taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill & All, > Even with "organic" produce, Consumer Reports finds pesticide residue, > albeit in much lower percentages than non-organic. Yet the produce is > certified as organic. It could be over spray or contact contamination or > it could be fraud. The reason there is a percentage of pesticide residue in some organic produce is that there is pesticide contamination in our environment. Scientist testing ice in the polar regions have found pesticide residue in the ice packs even though pesticides have never been used there. How in the world did the pesticides wind up in the polar regions? Even if the whole world population was to quit using pesticides now it would still be in our environment for a long period of time. I know some pesticides break down sooner than later but some will be with us a long time, changing the very essence of life. > It could be over spray or contact contamination or > it could be fraud. Yes this is true but fraud would be a very small percent because I think most people have morals. > That does not matter. Once certified, little follow-up. > By all means, it should be followed up. The more we know the better. . .. c(((([ Keith (Still keeping bees without treats) Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 12:42:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Chinese Varroa strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Chinese Varroa strips I have put up a page that is supposed to describe this product, but the English translation is so bad that the text is very misleading. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/wang/wangstrips.html In order to correct this I have put up a similar page with the original Chinese instructions (these may be misleading for the Chinese as I have drawn each character, pixel by pixel, and there will be a few errors). http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/wang/wangstripchinese.html If there are any Chinese speakers on this list I would ask that they peruse the two documents, in order that I may prepare an explanatary text for inclusion with the page. Any help will be appreciated and acknowledged. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 09:12:02 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Daniel Adam Subject: Re: Beeswax for cosmetics (was Mites can't be so mighty) In-Reply-To: <001301c3877c$3d786260$36a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: >I sell and use in my beeswax products only wax from cappings. I suggest all >on the list do the same . > > I simply would never use brood comb wax for soaps >and cosmetics as wax from old brood comb is a sink for chemicals from the >environment plus meds put in the hive by the beekeeper. > > try it yourself: Melt down old brood comb once and get the smell of it, then look at the remainings... nothing you'd like to put in even indirect contact with your skin... for cosmetics, use only cappings and completly fresh comb build by the bees themself. Greetings, Daniel Switzerland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 20:50:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Argentinean exports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Trevor & All, > I have heard it is because of nitrofuran. Not sure how it got in honey or > what it is used for in bees, if it is used. A search for nitrofuran showed it is an anti-bacterial drug and cancer causing. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:39:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Chinese Varroa strips In-Reply-To: <007901c38a6c$8da1d440$0a00000a@DaveCushman> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 4 Oct 2003 at 12:42, Dave Cushman wrote: > Chinese Varroa strips > > I have put up a page that is supposed to describe this product, Thanks, Dave! It's quite instructive that the Chinese label does not include any directions for personal protection, nor any warning not to apply while bees are making honey..... The ramifications are enormous. Dave Green (-thinking maybe we should be grateful for the EPA....) The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.info :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 09:09:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Chinese Varroa strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Chinese Varroa strips Interestingly, I met Mr. Wang at Apimondia in Vancouver. Since we had discussed the Wang strips on BEE-L, and I saw they had an exhibit, I expressed a great deal of interest at their booth. They gave me a sample and literature, then my wife and I went for coffee nearby. A few minutes later, the staff came over and introduced a middle-aged gentleman to us and we sat together for a while. I speak no Chinese, and he spoke no English, so it took me a while to realise who he was. The sample strip, when we examined it, turned out to be a sort of fabric, not like Apistan. We never did use it, and never did order any either. (I mentioned this previously. See http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0012D&L=bee-l&P=R1602) We had a discussion about Chinese strips back in 1998 & 99 (see http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S2=bee-l&q=varroa.com&0=S&s=&f=&a=&b=) FWIW, www.varroa.com is no longer an active site. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 14:45:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Organic wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Perhaps, with the controversary surrounding organic honey, organic wax would be the better product to produce, with organic honey taking a backseat to the money to be made from pure wax...? Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 14:15:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Beekeeping in Fiji Hello, Where can I get more information about beekeeping in Fiji, such as where bee supply places are located, bees can be bought, etc? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Carm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 22:31:16 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Fungi and Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rosalind James wrote: "The truth of the matter is, it is unlikely that these fungi hang around in a hive forever once they are introduced. It would be nice, but not likely to happen." Approaching from an IPM direction, this seems an ideal situation. The removal of active material or organisms after the period of need is to be wished for. Once the pest population has been reduced to a level below that of economic damage on its host, treatment should be suspended. Populations should then be monitored. Only when the level again attains damaging proportions should it be reapplied. "These fungi just are not able to survive and grow that well in the hive environment." Again this sounds fine! "In order for the fungus to stay in the hive for years, it would need a large number of live hosts (varroa) to transmit the disease." Beekeepers normally do not wish to maintain large numbers of V.d. in the hive environment. Levels helping to maintain susceptibility to specific treatment are to be considered beneficial. (Are Varroa considered as a disease? - I have always thought of them only as an infestation, that then could cause various infections resulting from their mode of activity) "Although you might think you have a lot of mites, if the fungus works as well as we would like it to, it will kill off it's hosts, and then it will die as well." Sounds like the perfect definition for Biological control "For this reason, the fungus will have to be reapplied to the hive again." As long as the above stated conditions remain as the constant - the faster it is proven that the organism is proven to non hazardous in other domains, the better. It would again help open up the genetic pool of the bee strains available to bee breeders. Being restricted to Russian, SMR strains etc. may lead to other potential problems in the future (this is not to be taken as critical of the work do and being done on those strains and lines!) Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 22:00:20 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Mosquito Spraying In Eastern Virginia Starts MondayOctober 6th MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, What happens if beekeepers are not able to be informed by the authorities? ( Who are presumably the instigators of the spraying procedures and timing involved). Also, are any losses due to not being able to follow recommendations (covering up hives with wet taups. etc.) due to having too many hives considered as a "no fault" situation by the spray programme organisers? Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 22:56:33 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Organic wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim, May be I am being dim - but how does one make organic wax when the honey it presumably comes from is apparently surrounded in controversy! Unless, it results from metabolised organic sugar feeding!! Regards, Peter. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 00:00:23 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have put up some data on oxalic trickling: http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-0-nf.htm -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 09:48:05 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Organic wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Perhaps, with the controversary surrounding organic honey, organic wax would > be the better product to produce, with organic honey taking a backseat to > the money to be made from pure wax...? As wax will "soak" up all and sundry in the atmosphere, I would think it would be harder to produce "organic" beeswax. Has anyone analysed beeswax lately to see what it contains? With all the chemicals being used in beekeeping, I wonder were all the "organic" beeswax is going to come from. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 16:24:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <3F7D62D3.3080807@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bill Truesdell I was in on the early setting of standards for organic honey. I disagreed with the standards then (and they have not changed much) and felt the real purpose had everything to do with the movement and little to do with the actual purity of honey. I also knew that those who labeled their honey "organic" cheated since they had to treat for varroa just like I did. Reply: I too have been in on the early setting of organic standards or should I say the fighting over it. Too much is politics and too little is actual beekeeping that fits the needs of industry, especially on a world-wide scale. My husband and I cannot accept the "Certified Standards" in either Europe or the USA and have let appropriate officials know in the USDA. Working around it with advice from friends in Africa and Europe we label our honey based upon our field management. Very simply we say: Produced by Organic Methods without the usage of chemicals, essential oils, drugs, FGMO, and acids. Then to those we sell we give a notorized statement listing what we do not use item by item, and also the fact that ALL combs have been melted down and retooled with clean wax,and that we are self-contained.Also we do not believe in clipped queens due to AI. Then to the pharmacies that have bought for zero tolerance and passed samples thru the FDA for their testing, we also tag each barrel of honey extracted by floral source, date, and location.We also have allowed in the past, any sampling desired by Pharmacutical purchasers, to see if we have been contaminated in any way from outside sources that could then be sued later on for contaminating us thru wrongful application of treatment products. Then all we do is stand ground. But we use small cell foundation, 4.9mm top tolerance, and cull to approximate 10% maximum for drone comb, which actually ends up producing more drones and giving us a longer breeding time! Bill further writes: You cannot police the problem if the end product is the same. Reply: This is quite true indeed. Today's IPM substitution of soft chemical usage,for across the board Organic beekeeping of old is crazy, and an insult to those of us that work hard to keep a clean product without the usage of all various doping products that end up effecting the purity of the honey, the pollen, propolis, and bees themselves. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper http:groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:47:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tony Dixon Subject: Re: Chinese Varroa strips Hi, I got a good supply of the Chinese Varroa strips from Dr Wang at Apomondia in Vancouver. As I understood the instructions on the pakage the strips were to remain in the hive only 23 days. They must have been formulated stronger than the North American product? I regularly observed five or six dead or disabled bees on the stickey boards each morning for the first two or three days after introduction of the strips. The strips were white and had a woven texture similar to fiberglass. In my opinion the product worked well, at least as well as the standard North American product. Tony :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 09:34:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Chinese Varroa strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all > The sample strip, when we examined it, turned out to be a sort of > fabric, not like Apistan. The sample packet that I photographed came from Apimondia in Lubliana. They were purchased in some quantity by European beekeepers... Maybe the fact that they are a quarter of the price of Apistan, influenced their decision! What concerned me was the way that many thought them to be equivelent to, and a substitute for, Apistan, simply because they contain the same major ingredient. Because of the different substrate and coating method the release rate is unlikely to be similar. That coupled with the different dosage would give rise to a very different effect. Hence my attempt to increase the awareness. The exercise has backfired a little in that the English translation is poor and my attempts at translation of the Chinese characters have been abysmal :-( Web searches on the topic came back zero (I did not even find Allens archived post). Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 01:01:48 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Mosquito Spraying In Eastern Virginia Starts MondayOctober 6th > What happens if beekeepers are not able to be informed by the authorities? > (Who are presumably the instigators of the spraying procedures and timing involved). The notice claimed that spraying will not be done if temperatures are high enough for bee flight, so in a best-case scenario, nothing will happen. In a worst-case scenario, bees will die. > Also, are any losses due to not being able to follow recommendations (covering > up hives with wet taups. etc.) due to having too many hives considered as a > "no fault" situation by the spray programme organisers? Yes, but not in the way you might think - the spray program organizers will certainly claim that it is not THEIR fault. :) Perhaps French beekeepers enjoy such advantages as being paid when their hives are killed, but in the USA, the declaration of an "emergency" (which was done when the hurricane hit) allows the authorities to ignore the pesticide label instructions, and, if they wish, spray at noon, spray with no advance warning, whatever they feel is "required". At least the state is making an effort to spray only when bees will not be flying. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 11:36:27 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Giuseppe Subject: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello to all the participants of the list. perhaps you shipment the address web of an Australian search on the bees and the performance and Queens problems introduction of the same ones we begin to understand the reason of the ugly performances and the strong substitution of the Queens. http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/03-049.pdf giuseppe caboni gcaboni@tiscali.it un saluto a tutti i partecipanti della lista. vi invio l'indirizzo web di una ricerca australiana sulle api regine e sui problemi di introduzone e prestazioni delle stesse. forse iniziamo a capire il motivo delle brutte prestazioni e della forte sostituzione delle regine.http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/03-049.pdf gcaboni@tiscali.it visitate http://www.mieliditalia.it/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 08:01:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee said: I too have been in on the early setting of organic standards or should I say the fighting over it. The fighting comes about when many of the beekeepers only want *the certification* so they can get (or think they can get) a higher price at the marketplace without doing the hard work of at least attempting to produce an "organic" honey. People Like the Lusbys should be rewarded for the efforts and are valuable asset to the industry with their product. The testing at the end proves to the consumer that the Lusbys did produce what they claim. but What if a jar of my honey passes the same rigerous testing with ZERO contamination. is my honey an inferior product? Is my jar of honey worth a third the price of the Lusbys ? Hmmm. Without testing of the final product the whole organic honey thing stinks in my opinion. The honor system and allowing those under the "organic' banner to police their own operations has never worked in the U.S.. Dee said: Working around it with advice from friends in Africa and Europe we label our honey based upon our field management. My advice from the start! Dee said: Very simply we say: Produced by Organic Methods without the usage of chemicals, essential oils, drugs, FGMO, and acids. All excellent selling points! I believe you have held yourselves to a higher standard than will ever be used in the world for "organic honey production" as long as varroa is a big threat! I believe a place exists in the market for a product like Dee is producing. The product moving into the U.S. market place by packers with blanket "certified organic honey certifications" has not been treated as the Lusby's have produced their honey HOWEVER I bet the honey will test the same on the mass spec machine. Is the U.S. honey supply really a health hazard? I don't think so! The FdA is testing thousands of jars of U.S. honey for contamination. If all the domestic honey is passing with flying colors then please explain the need for organic honey ? I see plenty of need for random testing by the FDA with the present level of chemical use in hives going on in both the U.S. and the world. Let us double or triple the random inspections! OR IS THIS WHOLE ORGANIC THING REALLY ABOUT CONSERN FOR THE CONSUMER? Dee said: Also we do not believe in clipped queens due to AI. You lost me here? What does a clipped wing or instrumental insemination of a queen have to do with the purity of honey. Will eating honey from a hive headed by a queen bee with a clipped queen or has been inseminated cause a health problem ( or are you simply trying to set a standard for organic honey which most will give up on before they try because of severe limitions in their present beekeeping practices?) Dee said: Then to the pharmacies that have bought for zero tolerance and passed samples thru the FDA for their testing, we also tag each barrel of honey extracted by floral source, date, and location.We also have allowed in the past, any sampling desired by Pharmacutical purchasers, to see if we have been contaminated in any way from outside sources that could then be sued later on for contaminating us thru wrongful application of treatment products. Hope you carry excellent product liability insurance? The paper work is to protect the drug makers and not you if a problem arises! My brother is a lawyer. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 23:29:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Check out 2004 Honeybee Expo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 2004 Honeybee ExpoFebruary 7 2004at West Virginia University at Parkersburg on Route 47 We had a good first year at the Expo with over 100 beekeepers attending. Plans are now under way to make the Second Annual Honeybee Expo bigger and better. Keep checking this page to keep abreast of this great beekeeping event as it unfolds. I will be adding a downloadable reservation form, and a list of events as they become available.Location of WVUP The red star is the location of the campus. It is visible from WV. 47. Click here: 2004 Honeybee Expo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 22:05:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Sometimes things work in theory... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 2. If trickling method is effective, why can't be spraying atop > effective as well, without breaking the cluster? ... Europeans have experimented with almost every imaginable treatment over the past several decades. Some experiments have been pretty crazy and others have been very rigourous and well conducted. From all that, the current recommendations have been derived, after considering consistency of results, effect on the bees and brood, and many other factors. I'm sure spraying on top has been tried and found unsatisfactory. Why, I can't guess. Sometimes things work in theory and not in practice. Sometimes it is the other way around. Theory is just theory. Granted, there are many more formulations, combinations, and techniques that have worked, and will work, but simply achieving some degree of mite control on one or more occcasions is, perhaps the easiest part. The difficulty comes when some sort of reliability is expected, under widely varying conditions, and when food and personal safety issues, together with regulatory expectations are combined into the mix. In temperate zones, there is often one window of opportunity for treating each year, and failure -- partial or total -- is not an option. > 3. I read about a German beekeeper using, a la formic pad, sort of > the shop-towel-emersion method: soaking paper towels into alcohol and > oxalic solution, drying the towels, and putting them inside the > hives... Might have worked for him, but did not work for my neighbours. For that matter, we ghave been recently discussing fungus again, and that we have mentioned, in passing, at least, before. Adony did some tests, as I recall with hirsutella, with less than promising results, for reasons recently discussed having to do with method of application and lack of persistence. I searched, but found only this: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S2=bee-l&q=hirsutella&0=S&s=&f=&a=&b= allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Talkin' AFB again. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 12:11:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Experience opinions needed I want to place a queen cell in the middle of the brood chambers week or two before the honeyflow to do a queen replacement? I'll be making my own cells Any opinions and experience in this matter is welcome Do the queens fight before the newly emerged queen mates, or after she comes back? What is the percentage of acceptance of the new queen? basically this is just a supercedure brought on by myself, not the hives, so does the hive treat it as a regular hive supercedure? I heard of this being done during the honeyflow, by placing the cell inthe top of the honeysuper, but I use excluders and don't feel like breaking every hive down to add the cell to fht brood chamber. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 09:24:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <001501c38b40$d90bc1a0$07a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dee said: Also we do not believe in clipped queens due to AI. Bob Replied: You lost me here? What does a clipped wing or instrumental insemination of a queen have to do with the purity of honey. Reply: Quite a lot in the long run on a continuing breeding program, for it will effect disease and parasites, which will then effect how the situations are handled. . .i.e. clean or dirty. Here natural outbreeding is better then man controlled AI. After all, don't people see organics as natral? Bob Harrison then wrote: Will eating honey from a hive headed by a queen bee with a clipped queen or has been inseminated cause a health problem ( or are you simply trying to set a standard for organic honey which most will give up on before they try because of severe limitions in their present beekeeping practices?) Reply: No it will not here if taken in this sense. But organic beekeeping is more then just producing so-called clean honey. To me IMPOV an organic program that has problems of disease and predators and parasites is no real organic program for organic beekeeping should be in harmony with Nature. When all ducks line up and the problems with the bees necessatating the various doping ways stop, and the bees become healthy, strong, and continuing with basic field manipulative management, then you have arrived. Bob Harrison further wrote: Hope you carry excellent product liability insurance? The paper work is to protect the drug makers and not you if a problem arises! My brother is a lawyer. Reply: Good your brother is a lawyer, then he would know that if the honey is bought for zero tolerance and medical usage by the pharmacies, then they are going to protect it and sort/seek it out! Yes, they indeed know what it is worth and will protect it. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper http:groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:20:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Chinese Varroa strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave wrote: It's quite instructive that the Chinese label does not include any directions for personal protection, nor any warning not to apply while bees are making honey... The ramifications are enormous. Interesting to see the list informed about these strips but we were told about these strips around 1990 by the beekeepers which took the China beekeeping tour (and USDA). Three of my friends took the China tour. The strips pictured were strips meant to be sold on the open market (even to areas they were not legal to use in). In China being a communist country all bee hives are owned by the government and all beekeepers work for the government. We were told wooden strips with sheep dip (fluvalinate) were passed out to all beekeepers in China to use to control varroa. We were told the government decides on the meds used in the bee hives and then provides the meds. Most China beekeepers (in our opinion) know very little about proper use of meds and precautions for their health while using the government supplied meds. Also the China beekeepers were not told (as seen by reading the directions on the package) not to use fluvalinate strips while the honey supers were on. The government of China is (in my opinion) directly responsible for the recent contamination problems by providing the banned antibiotic to beekeepers and also behind attempts to ultrafilter contaminated honey and reship into the food chain of the U.S., Canada and the U.K. I have spent many many hours (if not weeks and months) looking at the beekeeping in other countries. What I have found would shock many on the list so will keep for the most part quiet! Bob Ps. Thanks Dave for having the courage to post on your website about the strips but old news I suspect for at least a few on the list. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 11:16:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: fructose storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are considering next year setting up enough plastic storage tanks to store at least a half tanker load of fructose . Are there other things we need to do beside add water before pumping in fructose and adding areation while filling the plastic tank to help prevent crystalization. Maybe this post should be directed to Allen Dick as i see from reading his diary he uses the size plastic tank we are considering. We have got two stainless steel tanks big enough to hold a tanker load sitting but they are not heated and unlike the see through plastic we can not know exactly what is going on in the bottom of the stainless tanks. Any advice about use of the stainless tanks? I doubt the list has interest in the above so email me direct other than post to the list. Thanks in advance! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 13:09:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <20031005162427.71691.qmail@web12403.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: >But organic beekeeping is more then just producing >so-called clean honey. To me IMPOV an organic program that >has problems of disease and predators and parasites is no >real organic program for organic beekeeping should be in >harmony with Nature. > Harmony with nature is not a guarantee against disease. After all - all of those disease inducing organisms are part of nature. > >When all ducks line up and the problems with the bees >necessatating the various doping ways stop, and the bees >become healthy, strong, and continuing with basic field >manipulative management, then you have arrived. > If all it took was "balance" then wild populations of all organisms would not have much by way of disease. Ask any qualified wildlife health professional - it aint' so. Of course to adopt this simplistic position one must fail to see that the disease causing organisms are part of nature will always seek to maximize their reproductive rates ('cause that is what living things do) . . . and you know where that leads. Keith -- The best servants of the people, like the best valets, must whisper unpleasant truths in the master's ear. It is the court fool, not the foolish courtier, whom the king can least afford to lose - Walter Lippmann :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 11:44:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic honey & liability MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee wrote: Good your brother is a lawyer, then he would know that if the honey is bought for zero tolerance and medical usage by the pharmacies, then they are going to protect it and sort/seek it out! I believe all of the list has seen the movie "The Godfather" which is considered one of the classic movies of all time. In the movie the underworld uses three levels of people between the godfather and the crime. When a problem arises the closest person to the crime is sacrificed. Big business and large corporations (like drug companies) operate the same way my brother says (corporate lawyer) . If a problem happens and the source of the contamination can be traced back to your honey then you will be sacrificed. The company will distance itself from you and place all blame on you. In my opinion if you only carry the product liability I do (one million dollars) you might consider a higher amount. A Missouri court awarded 7.1 million this week against a small transport company over a death resulting from a traffic accident on one of the most dangerous curves in K.C. Thousands of accidents have happened on the curve over the years but the state declines to fix the "Benton curve" problem. As a retired professional driver I have had a few close calls on the curve myself. The only thing going against the driver in court was the fact he had had numerous speeding tickets over the last two years but he still had a valid drivers license. I believe his load shifted. People are sue happy and juries tend to give awards of huge sums of money. Possibly you could get a lawyer to draw up a contract the drug company would sign saying they would provide free legal service if a problem arises. Then they would have a vested interest in protecting you ! Bob Bob always the optimist! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 11:45:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Re: Experience opinions needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by gcaboni@TISCALI.IT to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It has been edited to remove the quoted previous message(s). --- hello ian from my experiences the percentage of substitution of the Queens and around to 40% of the Queens with more than two years than life. I work with beehives "italica carlini" and insert the wrapped real cells in a aluminum film in the lateral chassis I insert the cells 20 or 30 days before the swarming or to the end of the season (luglio/settembre). im live in sardegna (italia) giuseppe caboni hello ian dalle mie esperienze la percentuale di sostituzione delle regine e intorno al 40% delle regine con più di due anni di vita. io lavoro con arnie " italica carlini" e inserisco le celle reali avvolte in una pellicola di alluminio nei telai laterali. inseriamo le celle 20 o 30 giorni prima della sciamatura oppure alla fine della stagione (luglio/settembre). io abito in sardegna italia giuseppe caboni :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 13:53:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Experience opinions needed In-Reply-To: <200310051611.h95DESE6019363@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I want to place a queen cell in the middle of the brood chambers week >or two before the honeyflow to do a queen replacement? > Ian I would wait for the flow...or feed them. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:48:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: fructose storage Comments: To: Bob Harrison Bob Harrison wrote: "We are considering next year setting up enough plastic storage tanks to store at least a half tanker load of fructose .....Are there other things we need to do beside add water before pumping in fructose and adding areation while filling the plastic tank to help prevent>crystalization"?. "I doubt the list has interest in the above so email me direct other than post to the list." IMO this would be a great topic, especially methods of stirring and / or warming the HFCS prior to distribution/feeding. However, caution should be given as HFCS should be given only in the spring as the solids it contains are difficult for bee digestion; and, sugar syurp(IMHO) is a better feed in the fall. Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:46:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: fructose storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Peter says he wants in the discussion so guess we will do on BEE-L. Chuck said: However, caution should be given as HFCS should be given only in the spring as the solids it contains are difficult for bee digestion; and, sugar syurp(IMHO) is a better feed in the fall. I have posted many times that I feel sugar syrup is a better feed but fructose runs a close second. Bulk sugar is expensive unless bought as scrape. A scrape load was bid on last week but the deal did not go through. So we are left with 42% or 55% to use. As far as feeding fructose only in the spring. I have heard the above for years from many sources from beekeepers to researchers. Maybe even in one of Chuck Norton's talks at a national convention. However: We have fed fructose for many years for winter feed without a problem. In other words if bees are needing feed and all you can get is fructose then its fructose the bees get. I have not seen any dysentary in years and i suppose dysentary (which kills bees) is the main reason for Chuck saying what he did. Maybe Allen will comment about fructose feeding in colder than Missouri climates? I do not recall Allen feeding fructose but fructose is the syrup Dadant and most bee supply houses in the U.S. sell and is the easiest for us to get. 42% is available with a trip to "Oz" (Kansas). 55% is only available off the tanker. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:31:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: [Bee-L] Bee dances Comments: cc: JBarthell@ucok.edu, david.salisbury@vanderbilt.edu, Laszlo.Pentek@dc.gov, dgnpune@yahoo.co.in, jnieh@ucsd.edu, gary.greenberg@wichita.edu In-Reply-To: <20030921150527.86779.qmail@web21405.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Since 20 September, when I left for a two-week period of intensive bee research in Maryland, several contributors to BEE-L again raised the issue of bee "language" -- to which I could not respond. Rick Drutchas asked about the "robot bee" experiments. Ahlert Schmidt provided a list of recent papers on the topic. Those interested should realize that several issues intersect on this matter. First, during the last couple of decades almost all research has focused on the dance maneuver itself, not on whether naive bees could USE the information in that maneuver, as covered in: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/jib2002.htm The "robot bee" experiments seemed to be an exception, but those researchers began with the assumption of "truth" of bee "language." Whenever controversy erupts, attention to evidence goes out the window. "The proof is in the pudding," however, as the saying goes. Consider the following facts (available at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/az1991.htm 1) Esch and Bastian reported (1970): 70 marked bees attended dances, but only 14 of them found the new location 10 of those 14 bees required between 1 and 9 flights before success The "most successful" 4 bees searched for 56, 58, 90, and 360 seconds for the 30 second flight between hive and feeding station. 20 others failed to find the station 2) Gould, Henerey, and McCloud reported (1970): 277 marked bees left the hive after attending dances 37 arrived at the two stations 25 of them ended up in the "right" direction 12 of them arrived at a station in exactly the opposite direction 20 seconds was the flight time out for experienced foragers 8 MINUTES, median time, was required for recruits to find the feeder 75 MINUTES was the longest search time for a successful recruit 3) Friesen reported (1973): 24 minutes was the maximum search time for a downwind station 9 minutes was the maximum search time for an upwind station 4) Dreller and Kirchner (1993), principals in "robot bee" research, reported: 262 marked recruits required an average of about two HOURS to reach a feeding station that regular foragers would fly to in just over a MINUTE Please note that most of that evidence counter to the language hypothesis was gathered by bee language proponents. Does the above adverse evidence matter to bee language advocates? So far it hasn't. Those who have read our 1990 ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY book know why. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 03:12:57 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: wraping styro hives In-Reply-To: <000b01c38b81$c8e37de0$2ba59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A beginner's question : Do you wrap styrofoam hives for wintering ? Hervé Québec Canada ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:32:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <3F80502E.9060303@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Keith Benson writes: Harmony with nature is not a guarantee against disease. After all - all of those disease inducing organisms are part of nature. Reply: Yes they are, but not on a rampage and out of proportion to what they actually should be! Keith Benson further wrote: If all it took was "balance" then wild populations of all organisms would not have much by way of disease. Reply: yes, exactly. Keith then wrote: Ask any qualified wildlife health professional - it aint' so. Reply: Yes, man sure has done a lot to get things out of balance, we are now trying to put back into before it's too late by creation of preserves and safe environments. Benson continues: Of course to adopt this simplistic position one must fail to see that the disease causing organisms are part of nature will always seek to maximize their reproductive rates ('cause that is what living things do) . . . and you know where that leads. Reply: Yes, failing to see this is bad. Look at our bees because of this. In the natural environment foul is 1-2 %, with man's version of honeybees look what we got instead. . . .much more, plus out of control pests, predators, and diseases not even associated with the natural, for they are only found in man's artificially created environment of which for over a century bigger is better has been the way to go!!! Better for who? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper http:groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:48:08 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Giuseppe Subject: organic honey problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit thanks allen and to all those that take part in this list the issue of the biological and complex bee-keeping but to need of a sure elasticity in order to analyze the problem if we want to be you specify does not exist to the world a completely clean place and without no polluting substance, enough to see the pollution of the North Pole or rains acide that often they fall in the forests, this does not want to say second that bee-keeping cannot be made biological(organic), in Europe and emerged (to part the extremists) the theory which to make bee-keeping biological it means to avoid the chemical treatments against the varroa, and in Italy we have demonstrated that it can be made with timolo and oxalic acide also in companies of medium dimensions (the 1000/2000 stream beds) means to control the plague A.f.b of antibiotics and also this can be made even if in Italy we have the advantage / disadvantage to use the hive Dadant Blatt that allows to have one better control of the diseases, the supers without brooded and therefore one smaller transmission of the diseases of the brooded one, but with the Langstroth and the much most difficult one. the great problems that we must face instead are food of the bees and the diseases like the virosi,la e.f.b. and the nosema, diseases where the beekeeper it cannot only take part with techniques of conduction,ma with the scientific search on treatments to low impact acclimatizes them (es. timolo) and with the beehives that are always in the best conditions than supplyes. to follow this road and our small contribution in order to make a world less polluted. moreover the difference of the quotations the biological(organic) and conventional honey between in best of the cases and a 10% in more to favor of the biological one (http://www.osservatoriomiele.org/ago03.htm), lately because of the strong crisis of production for bad climatic conditions of these last years does not exist nearly difference ,............excused for ugly English Best Regards giuseppe caboni the best Italian Internet addresses http://www.osservatoriomiele.org/ http://www.mieliditalia.it/default.htm http://www.apicolturaonline.it/ la questione del apicoltura biologica e complessa ma a bisogno di una certa elasticità per analizzare il problema se vogliamo essere puntigliosi non esiste al mondo un posto completamente pulito e senza nessuna sostanza inquinante,( basta vedere l’inquinamento del polo nord o le piogge acide che spesso cadono nelle foreste,…ma questo non vuol dire che non si possa fare apicoltura biologica , in europa e emersa ( a parte gli estremisti) la teoria secondo cui fare apicoltura biologica significa evitare i trattamenti chimici contro la varroa , e in italia abbiamo dimostrato che si può fare con il timolo e l’acido ossalico anche in aziende di dimensioni medie (1000/2000 alveari) significa controllare la peste americana senza l’uso degli antibiotici e anche questo si può fare anche se in italia abbiamo il vantaggio/svantaggio di usare l’arnia Dadant Blatt che permette di avere una migliore controllo delle malattie, i melari senza covata e quindi una minore trasmissione delle malattie della covata, ma con la Langstroth e molto più difficile . i grandi problemi che dobbiamo affrontare invece sono l’alimentazione delle api e le malattie come la virosi ,la peste europea e il nosema ,malattie dove l’apicoltore non può intervenire con tecniche di conduzione ,ma solo con la ricerca scientifica su trattamenti a basso impatto ambientale (es. timolo) e con le arnie che stiano sempre nelle migliori condizioni di scorte . seguire questa strada e il nostro piccolo contributo per fare un mondo meno inquinato . inoltre la differenza delle quotazioni del miele tra biologico e convenzionale nel migliore dei casi e un 10% in più a favore del biologico ,ultimamente a causa della forte crisi di produzione per cattive condizioni climatiche di questi ultimi anni non esiste quasi differenza :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 22:37:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: fructose storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "We are considering next year setting up enough plastic storage tanks > to store at least a half tanker load of fructose .....Are there > other things we need to do beside add water before pumping in > fructose and adding areation while filling the plastic tank to help > prevent>crystalization"?. I cover this in several places on my site. One is http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/syrup/feed.htm All that is necessary is to add ~10% of the estimated volume in *sterile* water before filling. The agitation of pumping mixes it just fine. The HFCS is hot when received and we have never had to agitate again. It also does not ferment as badly as sucrose syrup, given the same concentration for some reason. Should you not dilute it, the resulting granulation is very soft, like a soft creamed honey, and pump-able at room temp or above, with a little agitation. >>>Maybe Allen will comment about fructose feeding in colder than Missouri climates? I do not recall Allen feeding fructose but fructose is the syrup Dadant and most bee supply houses in the U.S. sell and is the easiest for us to get. 42% is available with a trip to "Oz" (Kansas). 55% is only available off the tanker.<<< 55% is the good stuff IMO. Never used the other. I hear 42 is OK in warm climates. I've fed some type 55 for winter, and had great survival, but also know that caged bee studies showed that sucrose resulted in marginally greater longevity, so have always preferred sucrose for winter. I prefer 55 over anything for spring feed. It is nicer to handle, and more like honey. Bees love it. Type 55 HFCS does not scum like sucrose, and is not as corrosive to hands and leather. Don't buy any off-spec HFCS. Demand a quality assurance certificate. It should accompany the load. The syrup should look just like water -- clear and colourless -- only very much thicker. There are no solids in HFCS other than the sugars. It is very pure, but you buy an off-spec load, the acids in it can destroy the bees' abilty to digest. Check the archives on this. There was a big suit over that in Western Canada a few years back. Don't know if it was ever settled, but the problem was cheap off-spec product sold as bee feed. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 23:30:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee, Keith & All, Dee Lusby wrote; > Yes, man sure has done a lot to get things out of balance, > we are now trying to put back into before it's too late by > creation of preserves and safe environments. > Reading my copy of Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring" she calls these things that have got the environment out of balance as Elixirs of Death. It is nice that we are creating safe environments but the damage is done, even these safe environments have residues of pesticides and chemicals just as the ice pack of the North and South Poles have. As Albert Schweitzer has said, "Man can hardly even recognize the devils of his own creation." Like I have said before pesticides have no place being placed in a bee hive where insects live. I was told that it was a "Myth" that these pesticides that are being used to control varroa dumb the bees and shorten their lives, I still say that pesticides in the hives make the bees sick and out of balance. Keith Benson wrote; > Of course to adopt this simplistic position one must fail > to see that the disease causing organisms are part of > nature will always seek to maximize their reproductive > rates. I see a simplistic position like Dee describes as a way for bees to maximize their reproductive rates if left to do it, but of course mankind has to help them, in my opinion, by putting the bees back on to a cell size that is closer to their natural cell size. Keith Benson wrote; > ('cause that is what living things do) . . . and you know > where that leads. Yes, prosperous honey bee colonies and parasites and diseases only as prolific as the bees will allow, this is balance. . .. c(((([ Keith (of no Elixirs of Death in the hives) Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 09:11:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Chinese Varroa strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & all (Bob replying to two Daves)... > Interesting to see the list informed about these strips but we were told > about these strips around 1990 by the beekeepers which took the > China beekeeping tour (and USDA). I was not indicating that they were in any way 'new', but that the page I have put up (for public record purposes) is not as complete and informative as I would like it to be. Beekeeping info on the net, comes in all degrees of accuracy and prejudice, in some instances, minority views are put more effectively and strongly than they merit. I defend the right of individuals to publish their own ideas, but I try to maintain honest and accurate reporting, regardless of the novelty or otherwise of the information. In the case of the Chinese strips... This was my first opportunity to take photographs. Bob also said... > I have spent many many hours (if not weeks and months) looking at the > beekeeping in other countries. What I have found would shock many > on the list so will keep for the most part quiet! Perhaps you would share some of your concerns with the list? I am quite prepared to be shocked, I too, have seen and heard many things that I do not agree with :-) Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 05:54:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Bower Subject: Swarm in September A few weeks ago a was performing some fall hive manipulations.(I run all mediums and was reversing the bottoms as well as checking for queens and feeding if necessary). While I was working a group of 8 hives I noticed what seemed to be swarming bees in the immediate area. I believe that this swarm was to have originated from my hives, but I have no proof as I mark my queens and this one was not. The swarm settled directly above my hives on the branch of a pine tree. I had no swarms that I am aware of to settle in these pines during the earlier months. Yesterday I noticed one of these hives was queenless and the last capped bees were emerging which would correspond with the timing of the swarm. There was no apparent attemt to requeen themselves (No visible signs of queen cells) The swarm was the size of a grapefruit and the queen was fertile as she was laying eggs within a day. The swarms timing was odd in that they waited until 5:00pm on a sunny day. Temperatures were in the 70's. My question to the list is: Can one cause bees to swarm within minutes of manipulating them and if so why wouldnt all the bees leave? If a colony absconds, dont all the bees leave? Would they not all leave because there was still eggs and brood present? Thanks, Kurt Bower Julian, NC USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:02:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <20031006013249.46784.qmail@web12407.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Keith Benson writes: > Harmony with nature is not a guarantee against disease. > After all - all of those disease inducing organisms are > part of nature. > > Reply: > Yes they are, but not on a rampage and out of proportion to > what they actually should be! snip > Yes, man sure has done a lot to get things out of balance, > we are now trying to put back into before it's too late by > creation of preserves and safe environments. Actually, there are diseases that run through an animal population and decimate it with no input from people. Rabies in the NE US is classic in decimating the raccoon population. > In the natural environment foul is 1-2 %, with man's > version of honeybees look what we got instead. . . .much > more, plus out of control pests, predators, and diseases > not even associated with the natural, for they are only > found in man's artificially created environment of which > for over a century bigger is better has been the way to > go!!! Better for who? There are statistics and then there are statistics. When a feral colony is killed off by foul, wax moths take on the responsibility of "burning" equipment by cleaning out the feral hive. If there were no wax moths then AFB in nature would be much higher. So we are talking about a difference of 2% between nature and managed hives, and that difference could be more mismanagement than management. The truth is, most animals managed by people are healthier and live longer than in "nature". We tend to romanticise the realm of tooth and claw since we do not live in it or have to live by its rules. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:36:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: >Keith Benson wrote; > > >>Of course to adopt this simplistic position one must fail >>to see that the disease causing organisms are part of >>nature will always seek to maximize their reproductive >>rates. >> >> > >I see a simplistic position like Dee describes as a way for bees to maximize >their reproductive rates if left to do it, but of course mankind has to help >them, in my opinion, by putting the bees back on to a cell size that is >closer to their natural cell size. > Some are under the impression that after you do that the mites will not respond by developing new strategies. There is a constant theme amongst folk who gather round the "balance is everything" banner that the mites have been with these populations forever and have suddenly gone haywire beacuse if large cells. The mites are relatively new in terms of the developement of the host parastie interaction. This is when host parasite interactions take the greatest toll on the host population. Being in balance with one's situation is always something to strive for - the problem is that the point of balance is ellusive, changing with changing environmental conditions, moment to moment, day to day, year to year, and is not the panacea that some hope it is. I don't care how balanced you are some pathogens/parasites can take you out, regardless. Keep in mind that the history of life on this planet is rife with new host parasite interactions that did not rely on man's meddling to bring them about. I will not argue that Mankind is responsible for some very terrible damage to our ecosystems. I work for an organization that is actively involved in conservation efforts througout the world and am a card carrying tree hugger. But to suggest that it would be great if we were all in balance is to missing much of a complex issue. > >Keith Benson wrote; > > >>('cause that is what living things do) . . . and you know >>where that leads. >> >> > >Yes, prosperous honey bee colonies and parasites and diseases only as >prolific as the bees will allow, this is balance. > Do you really think the paraasites and diseases are going to sit idly by and allow this? It is not a static situation. Keith "romance, over a bottle of nice wine with a beloved companion is a wonderful thing, but it has no palce in critical thinking" Benson :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:47:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: fructose storage In-Reply-To: <00a901c38bc3$8a653d00$35b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > Missouri climates? I do not recall Allen feeding fructose but > fructose is the syrup Dadant and most bee supply houses in the U.S. > sell and is the easiest for us to get. 42% is available with a trip > to "Oz" (Kansas). 55% is only available off the tanker.<<< > > 55% is the good stuff IMO. Never used the other. I hear 42 is OK in > warm climates. 42% granulates much more than 55% which is why 42% is OK in warm climates. But 55% is the recommended bee feed if you have the choice. > There are no solids in HFCS other than the sugars. It is very pure, > but you buy an off-spec load, the acids in it can destroy the bees' > ability to digest. Check the archives on this. There was a big suit > over that in Western Canada a few years back. Don't know if it was > ever settled, but the problem was cheap off-spec product sold as bee > feed. HFCS can be made by enzyme or acid. Acid produced HFCS is deadly for bees and was the original production method. The enzyme produced HFCS is fine and it is now the usual method of production. Both are called HFCS which is where the problem is. HFCS, in the British studies, was a very good bee feed. Most feed are a matter of degree in how good they are. Except in the lab, most of us would not notice much difference since there are so many variables in the winter that a 5-15% difference from winter feed in colony strength in the spring would not be noticed. The queen, weather and mites will have more impact. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 07:18:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: fructose storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: All that is necessary is to add ~10% of the estimated volume in *sterile* water before filling. A assume you only mean water from a potable water source . Surely you do not mean distilled water or similar product? Allen said: The agitation of pumping mixes it just fine. I wondered about the areation method we were told about as we have added water first before and not had a mixing problem *if* added before pumping or during pumping. During pumping worked best but you have to guess at the volume added. The beekeepers said if we didn't the water would not mix and freeze over a cold winter. They never said if freezing by not using the areation had happened or they just *thought* without areation freezing would happen. Allen said: 55% is the good stuff IMO. Never used the other. I hear 42 is OK in warm climates. We can get the 42 at two different locations in Kansas but pricing is about the same as 55% so the 55% off the tanker is a better value for us. The bulk suppliers only want to fill totes so many small beekeepers get syrup from us. Allen said: Don't buy any off-spec HFCS. The problem is we get the *off spec* free of charge. What we get is usually of a less percentage than 42% which we feed in spring when bees are flying. We have been getting the scrape for many years and the plant knows which syrup can be fed to bees and which can't. Never had a problem. Allen said: There was a big suit over that in Western Canada a few years back. Don't know if it was ever settled, but the problem was cheap off-spec product sold as bee feed. I remember the problem .The plant we deal with has only one product which can not be feed to bees (they tell us) and it is so thick that it is easily spotted in drums. Another beekeeper which used to take care of the scrape account did get a couple drums years ago by mistake but brought the drums back to the plant. You can never get away from human error! Before the list turns on us for using scrape fructose realize we have saved thousands of dollars by using the scrape fructose! The same for freight damaged cane sugar. I have bought and fed many drums/pallets. bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 07:57:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Fungi and Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding developing fungi or other such agents to control varroa in bee colonies: As with any approach, there can be successes and there can be failures. The failures can be as useful as the successes. Here is a small study in which the fungii did not have any noticable effect on the varroa: http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=2276 allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:48:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: fructose storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > All that is necessary is to add ~10% of the estimated volume in > >*sterile* water before filling. > A assume you only mean water from a potable water source . Surely > you do not mean distilled water or similar product? (For clarity, and easy quoting, without confusion, it would be nice if people would use the quote capability in their email software to insert carets ('>') into quotes. Outlook Express does so by default and can be set to do so under 'Tools | Options | Send | Plain Text Settings. Without following that convention, it gets very hard to see who said what). At any rate, I don't know the microbial or fungi content of the water supply you may consider potable. 'Potable' water sources like wells and some public supplies may not always be free of microbial life that could (eventually) spoil your syrup. We use the municipally treated water available locally, and drive a distance to get water that does not contain much fluoride. Inasmuch as there have been a number of deaths from drinking municipal water, and resulting scandals, in Canada over the past few years, we trust that now all such municipal supplies are properly treated and regularly tested, and that precautions have been taken to prevent contamination. > > The agitation of pumping mixes it just fine. > > I wondered about the areation method we were told about as we > have added water first before and not had a mixing problem *if*> > added before pumping or during pumping. During pumping worked best > but you have to guess at the volume added. I don't guess. I know the initial concentration, and I know the desired concentration, and I know the volume of the tank. The calculation is primary school math. Precise accuracy is not important. As I said, just adding 10% of the tank's volume before adding syrup works fine. I have 1,250 gallons sitting here, outside. It has experienced a minus 35 winter and a plus 90 degree summer and has not fermented or crystalized. > The beekeepers said if we didn't the water would not mix and freeze > over a cold winter. Baloney. > > Don't buy any off-spec HFCS. > The problem is we get the *off spec* free of charge. What we get is > usually of a less percentage than 42% which we feed in spring when > bees are flying. We have been getting the scrape for many years and > the plant knows which syrup can be fed to bees and which can't. Never > had a problem. We never buy syrup except through reputable bee suppliers, and never buy without getting written assurance that the syrup is first-class. > The same for freight damaged cane sugar. I have bought and fed many > drums/pallets. Freight damage, broken bags, and a little dirt are not a problem. Off-spec product that was screwed up in the processing is something that is not worth gambling with. The problem is that the effects of poor feed may not show up until long after feeding, and may not be obvious, even when they do. Top quality feed is worth every penny. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:59:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: fructose storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > HFCS can be made by enzyme or acid. Acid produced HFCS is deadly for > bees and was the original production method. The enzyme produced HFCS > is fine and it is now the usual method of production. Both are called > HFCS which is where the problem is. That is the take-home message. If beekeepers buy from bee supply houses, they don't have to worry, all that is taken care of, and the supply houses are big enough customers that the plants care about them and work with them to establish benchmarks. In fact, these agents can sell as cheap as if you were to buy from the plant itself, since they make their money on the volume. The problem with buying a load here and load there is that the person you buy from at the plant that day may not understand or care about your unique needs. I, personally demand a written and signed certificate of quality with every load, and I read it. If I can't get one, I don't buy. Period. > Most feed are a matter of degree in how good they are. Except in the > lab, most of us would not notice much difference since there are so > many variables in the winter that a 5-15% difference from winter feed > in colony strength in the spring would not be noticed. The queen, > weather and mites will have more impact. This is the problem with most observations in beekeeping. If you get a 100 pound crop, you never know what one or many little thing(s) you may have done that kept you from getting 250 pounds -- or 50 pounds. Generally, the survivors in the business take a conservative stance and will not touch inferior or uncertified supplies with a ten-foot pole. It is not that such inputs might not work, but that the risk is not worth the small savings to be gained by cuttting corners. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 10:50:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: fructose storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: We use the municipally treated water available locally, and drive a distance to get water that does not contain much fluoride. Interesting! I have never heard of a problem with the fluoride content of water adding 10% or less water to fructose. Allen said: Top quality feed is worth every penny. I agree and add: 'a penny saved is a penny earned' Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 10:52:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Re: fructose storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message was originally submitted by vanidour47212@SYMPATICO.CA to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU and has been edited to remove the entire previous article. --- > 'Potable' water sources like wells and > some public supplies may not always be free of microbial life that could > (eventually) spoil your syrup. There was a bee keeper in Ontario that bought a farm and the water was contaminated . He mixed up sugar syrup and it caused him to lose his bees :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:22:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: fructose storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Interesting! I have never heard of a problem with the fluoride > content of water adding 10% or less water to fructose. Well, as I recall, Jerry B said here on BEE-L that flouride appears to be cumulative in honey bees, so we figure that whenever we can avoid fluoride, we'll do so, even if the added water is going to be a tiny potion of what they consume. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:27:49 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: fructose storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just moving the topic a little sideways: Have seen syrups stored in what I presume are large polyethylene containers. These are often outside or under primitive shelter. My question is: Understanding that U.V. is detrimental to several types of plastic (inc. Low and high density PE) - is this a wise procedure to allow, and has any person suffered from having their containers rupture or crack. Central heating fuel tanks here in France are often made from molded PE - and they have embossed on the surface instructions to shelter the tank from sunlight. Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:41:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wesley A Voigt Jr Subject: Re: fructose storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please forgive my ignorance (I keep bees as a hobby) - What is scrape? Wes :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 15:58:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <3F8161C0.509@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Well, Hi Keith and Keith. Keith Benson wrote: Some are under the impression that after you do that the mites will not respond by developing new strategies. There is a constant theme amongst folk who gather round the "balance is everything" banner that the mites have been with these populations forever and have suddenly gone haywire beacuse if large cells. Reply: Yep, I am one. It's caused by going through old archives and records and looking for cause and effect. Found out there weren't any problems until man decided bigger was better. In fact the bees brought from Europe to the Far East in SEA lived quite nicely for over 100 years until bigger is better ideas were introduced by way of embossing rollers imported into the area for moderinzation. Keith Benson then wrote: The mites are relatively new in terms of the developement of the host parastie interaction. This is when host parasite interactions take the greatest toll on the host population. Reply: Yes, this is quite true and even Dr Ruttner pointed out in papers he wrote that only domesticated Amm was having problems, while the feral Amm were not and were actually the same size as Ac throughout the region. The ones not under man's control (domesticated) were doing fine, but the ones under man's control were not. Of course even today, some Ac are having problems due to bigger combs being used in some areas I've heard. Keith Benson continued: Being in balance with one's situation is always something to strive for- the problem is that the point of balance is ellusive, changing with changing environmental conditions, moment to moment, day to day, year to year, and is not the panacea that some hope it is. Reply: This is matter of opinion here and normally run by 'modern way of doing things at the time'. Sometimes the way of the present is not the way to go though fashionable. Keith Benson continued: I don't care how balanced you are some pathogens/parasites can take you out, regardless. Keep in mind that the history of life on this planet is rife with new host parasite interactions that did not rely on man's meddling to bring them about. Reply: Yep, this is evolution. Seems to work for the 1-2% that just cannot get it right. Yep, new host parasitic interactions have to come about as environment changes normally due to some catastrophe happening. Been happening for centuries, but not on the scale with honeybees as man's meddling has with the bigger is better syndrome. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 19:02:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Should I throw the sugar water away? I used an old washer machine to mix my sugar water when only had 20 or so hives. It worked great. I always measued in my liquids first and then added the sugar during the adjitaton cycle to prevent the pump from a clogging stop. Turn it on spin, and pump it into my surip tank on the truck. worked great. Now with more hives buying premixed surip only makes my life easier... Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:05:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <20031006225845.84804.qmail@web12406.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Found out >there weren't any problems until man decided bigger was >better. > No problems at all? Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:46:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Sometimes things work in theory... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit “Europeans have experimented with almost every imaginable treatment over the past several decades. Some experiments have been pretty crazy and others have been very rigorous and well conducted.” I have no doubt about beekeepers’ tinkering with myriad variations, indeed. My original question arose from the lack of comparative study done on spraying *with* sugar-syrup, not without. Although the researchers cannot pinpoint why, they found out oxalic acid mixed with 1 x 1 sugar syrup, in trickling method in particular, worked better than without the syrup. The original spraying method did *not* use any syrup at all. OA, this is strictly my guess, sticks well with syrup, especially given the hairy topology of a bee, coated, probably, with a waxy water- repellent. Of course, the original spraying method was to be done during the broodless period, frame by frame, with OA alone (30% solution which is slightly weaker than the solution used in trickling). What I did to my sick colonies, finally, was to spray the 30% OA, mixed in *syrup*, top and bottom, lifting supers up, shooting between the frames, bottom up, aiming at the clusters, now that brood-rearing is minimal, yet not wanting to do frame by frame (too time-consuming). My rationale for opting this particular procedure was too folded: direct mite kill at contact and residual kills caused by both lingering OA particles as well as by bees, imbibing the syrup, hence causing another eventual mite death. I could tell the spraying caused undue stress to the bees: they calm down immediately. (For those who love to spray water in lieu of lighting a smoker might want to consider spraying OA concoction to double the benefit *granted you take extreme caution against the caustic acid* with mask and acid-proof gloves and goggles) In warm evenings, they linger outside the box although they did not form a “beard.” It took two flight days for them to settle back down to normalcy. The death-rate was minimal, however. In three flight days, my revived bees showed more vigor and vitality than before. (After work, I daily observe my bees between 2:00 to 3:00) Again I could have opted for fumigation method, but I just did not have any clue about its efficacy and right dosage on screened bottoms (and I assume the dosage could be higher and like Dennis, I am thinking about shooting from the top, utilizing the downdraft created by bees). Except for a few dinks, those splits yet untouched by mites, all my bees are stalwart and the fall flow is going strong. Our temp still nears at 80’s though at dawn and dusk the temp dips around 55 F. The overall impact, I must confess, is still inconclusive: only time will tell. But for now they are alive, and that’s a good start. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:13:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > hello to all the participants of the list. perhaps you shipment the > address web of an Australian search on the bees and the performance > and Queens problems introduction of the same ones we begin to > understand the reason of the ugly performances and the strong > substitution of the Queens. > http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/03-049.pdf I'm glad to have this study brought to my attention. The conclusions are interesting, but some things are not clear to me. Maybe I did not read it well enough. (I always have problems scrolling around in PDFs). Here's a question: After a queen hatches in a nuc, and as time passes, a few queens either disappear or prove to have bad patterns. Therefore the percentage of queens that would be be present in the nucs normally declines between 7 & 28 days, and after 21 days, some might well be culled by the beekeeper, due to bad patterns. It was not obvious to me if this effect was taken into account, or if this pre-culling between 7 and 28 days -- assuming it took place, as it always does in the real world -- perhaps contributed to the better performance of queens that were 28 days old at introduction. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:28:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all > > http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/03-049.pdf > > I'm glad to have this study brought to my attention. The conclusions are > interesting, but some things are not clear to me. Maybe I did not read it > well enough. (I always have problems scrolling around in PDFs). I too, am surprised that so many documents are made hard to read in this manner... But the content is magnificent. > and after 21 days, some might well be culled by the > beekeeper, due to bad patterns. > > It was not obvious to me if this effect was taken into account, or if this > pre-culling between 7 and 28 days -- assuming it took place, as it always > does in the real world - The way I read this, no intervention took place. I have a great deal more re-reading of this document to do and may seek to publish some of it in a more conventional and 'easy to read' webpage format, but that will have to wait as I have stacks of stuff on drone fertility and semen viability to sort out first. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 06:49:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: fructose storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wes asks: What is scrape? incorrect spelling. Should be scrap. Scrap is beekeeper slang for fructose which is *off spec* or freight damaged sugar etc. I might add that when you know the off spec of fructose you can eliminate the fear of the use of the dreaded off spec fructose position raised by Allen and others (in my opinion). Also: The sugar plant we deal with has two full time chemists! Wes does raise an important point which is beekeepers have got a language all their own. At times both Bee Culture and the American Bee journal have had articles about dictionaries of beekeeper words. spell check did not catch my incorrect spelling as both scrape & scrap are in the dictionary. I get lazy and type fast and let spell check fix the mistakes. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 07:23:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sometimes things work in theory... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What I did to > my sick colonies, finally, was to spray the 30% OA, mixed in *syrup*, > top and bottom, lifting supers up, shooting between the frames... What I never did figure out is this: Did you ever prove that your bees have/had a heavy varroa mite load? Did you ever test for either varroa (or tracheal) mites before you began this unorthodox treatment? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 07:40:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> It was not obvious to me if this effect was taken into account, or >> if this pre-culling between 7 and 28 days -- assuming it took place, >> as it always does in the real world - > > The way I read this, no intervention took place. Therefore, some of the unfit queens would have naturally have removed themselves from the ranks of the older queens by the 28 days. They don't mention any dead in their cages in the caged ones, either -- that I could notice. I wonder how these things were accounted for. Can we also conclude that any queens that were found to have had poor or bad patterns, in the mating nuc, were installed into hives anyways? That runs counter to what I would expect beekeepers to do. I'd, personally, have trouble merrily installing a bum queen into a hive unless explicity told to, and I can't tell who did the field work -- experimenters or beekeepers -- and I don't see discussion of this problem, so I wonder... This reminds me that, in the past, queens were sold as virgins, laying queens, and tested queens, at prices that were lowest for virgins and highest for tested. Virgins were just that, freshly emerged queens, caged and mailed. the laying queens were likely plucked from the nuc around 21 days (As I recall 21 days was about as early as one could expect to find a new batch laying), and the tested ones were queens that were kept in the nuc until they had capped brood to be checked for viability -- around 28 days, in normal weather, I would imagine. Even in the best experiments, there are things that make a thinking person wonder... allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:57:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All Following on from > > http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/03-049.pdf which has considerable data on drone fertility and sperm count within mated queens. We in UK have been concerned about falling levels of fertility in drones for some time and have been developing methods to enable known age and parantage drones to be nursed within cages that have excluder grid over the faces of the comb. These excluders are not 'queen excluders', but are similar except that they have a wider spacing that allows worker access much more freely than if queen excluder is used, but still retain the drones. The greater access allows the drones to be nurtured more readily and nourished more intensively and it helps to keep up the quality of drones used for II. A batch of panels of Drone Excluder (Dronex) to suit National, Commercial and Langstroth hive sizes are in process of being manufactured to the design on the drawing... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/dronex/dronexfull.html I also designed a cassette type frame for using it (the drawing is for the B.S. National size, but the principle is the same for Langstroth)... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/droneframe.html This design draws heavily on techniques developed by John Atkinson. The woodwork for the frame is detailed on... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/dronex/dronewoodwork.html these details will help in visualising the structure of the frame itself, the design of the Dronex panel also lends itself to being used in half width frames of National, Commercial & Langstroth sizes. The new design is avialable in National, Commercial and Langstroth sizes that will cover one side of a frame. (two required per full frame). Cost is only £2.75 + VAT each = £3.23 in VAT (Price in Sterling, Euros and dollars according to exchange rate at time of despatch). Todays rate would be $5.40 each The price is the same for all sizes. Carriage is extra at cost according to ordered quantity. It is not too late to get on this 'band wagon', the deal is non profit making, and it will be some time before another batch is likely to be manufactured. Please express any interest 'OFF LIST' as this text is bordering on an advert. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:07:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Sometimes things work in theory... Yep, Allen. I collected about fifty or more crawling bees from the front of the *each* five infected hives, froze them overnight, and counted the mites, under a microscope at school, and I found about three to ten mites in each sample; in fact, our biology lab wanted to save them for the benefit of our students. Since these colonies lack any bottom, many are open and bottomless, it was impossible to stick anything under: they sit on rectangular stand right above the dirt, where tiny ants work like undertakers. I do not know the exact strand of the mites I got: under a microscope, they all looked brown to me, rather than red or reddish brown. They probably are the Russian or East Asian strand, the most common type found in America. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:14:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sometimes things work in theory... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon said: I collected about fifty or more crawling bees from the front of the *each* five infected hives, froze them overnight, and counted the mites, under a microscope at school, and I found about three to ten mites in each sample; The above might be a primative method to see if varroa is in the hive but incorrect for determining levels of infestation as used by researchers and the USDA. You went to a whole lot more work than needed Yoon. Simply catch around 300 bees in a jar from THE BROOD NEST and spray starting fluid in the jar. Roll and count the varroa on the side of the jar. Easily visable with the naked eye. You only need the microscope for tracheal mites (and I only use the microscope to back up my field opinion done with a 16 power glass). Did you check for a tracheal mite infestation while sitting at the microscope? All the above is in the archives. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:15:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all > Therefore, some of the unfit queens would have naturally have removed > themselves from the ranks of the older queens by the 28 days. They don't > mention any dead in their cages in the caged ones, either -- that I could > notice. I wonder how these things were accounted for. The document is the only info available and I do not know any of the contributing people on a personal basis, I would have expected cage deaths to be recorded if they occurred. > Can we also conclude that any queens that were found to have had poor > or bad patterns, in the mating nuc, were installed into hives anyways? >From the way I read it... Yes. But it is hard work reading it, I think I will take a hammer and chisel to the file so I can read it comfortably. (I have been reading the later pages more than the early ones). Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:42:40 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Giuseppe Subject: queen honey bee problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hello allen and to all those that take part in this list I task that the Australian job is a lot important because it places many doubts on the systems uses you until to hour from the breeders of bees Queens and the common acquaintance. in this search and one arrives you to the conclusion that not always the 15 days for the development are sufficient and complete mating of the Queens, moreover the Queens have need of attendance and one sure temperature for the sexual maturation and the migration of the spermatozoa and development of the just one the quantity of pheromones, therefore this us door to conclude that and necessary one greater attention to the dimensions and the characteristics of the mating beehives ( es. small or mini nucleu), to their population and all? age of the present bees. and demonstrated that many of the premature substitutions of the Queens are caused from hugly methods to you of management of the breedings of production of the bees Queens. If we add the problem dell? infertility of the residual kelp caused from the chemical ones in the wax, of the nosema in many cases not diagnosed, the cost of a bee Queen in the world-wide market not and a good investment. To insert the date of birth and withdrawal of money in the gabbietta would be an optimal idea, but a various organization in the breedings would be necessary also and this will have many problems on the producers of bees Queens . Moreover it would have to estimate the real costs of the not valid Queens, that is % of defective Queens,il they cost, the cost of the maintenance of a stream bed that will not be productive for the presence of a defective Queen, the cost of the job necessary in order to restore to l?alveare to analyze in total the cost of the acquired Queens. holding as firm point the fact that the quality Queen ago first of all the serious job of selection and search from seems of (the little.) serious breeders, exists the large problem to put this job in conditions for forming itself well, because the bredder and what to all the merit and the guilt on the selection until the birth of the Queens virgin,i mechanisms that regulate the life in the small family of bees of the mating nucleus is not completely clear, or they do not have a diffuse acquaintance who allows one sensitive qualitative difference of the bees Queens. And this search opens one window on the acquaintance of these mechanisms giuseppe caboni gcaboni@tiscali.it P.S. excuse my for ugly English but between a going for ireland to study a english ....i hope io penso che il lavoro australiano sia molto importante perché pone molti dubbi sui sistemi utilizzati sino ad ora dagli allevatori di api regine e dalla conoscenza comune . in questa ricerca si e arrivati alla conclusione che non sempre sono sufficienti i 15 giorni per lo sviluppo e completa fecondazione delle regine, inoltre le regine hanno bisogno di assistenza e una certa temperatura per la maturazione sessuale e per la migrazione degli spermatozoi e per lo sviluppo della giusta quantita di feromoni, quindi questo ci porta a concludere che e necessaria una attenzione maggiore alle dimensioni e alle caratteristiche delle arnie di fecondazione, alla loro popolazione e all’ età delle api presenti. si e dimostrato che molte delle sostituzioni precoci delle regine sono causate da cattivi metodi di gestione degli allevamenti di produzione delle api regine. Se aggiungiamo il problema dell’ infertilità dei fuchi causata dai residui chimici nella cera , del nosema in molti casi non diagnosticato, il costo di un ape regina nel mercato mondiale non e un buon investimento. Inserire la data di nascita e di prelievo nella gabbietta sarebbe un ottima idea, ma sarebbe necessario anche una diversa organizzazione negli allevamenti e questo avrà molti problemi sui produttori di api regine Inoltre bisognerebbe valutare i reali costi delle regine non valide, ossia la % di regine difettose ,il loro costo, il costo del mantenimento di un alveare che non sarà produttivo per la presenza di una regina difettosa , il costo del lavoro necessario per ripristinare l’alveare analizzare nel complessivo il costo delle regine acquistate ………tenendo come punto fermo il fatto che la regina di qualità la fa prima di tutto il serio lavoro di selezione e di ricerca da pare degli (pochi..) allevatori seri, esiste il grosso problema di mettere questo lavoro in condizioni di formarsi al meglio , perché se l’allevatore e quello che a tutto il merito e le colpe sulla selezione fino alla nascita delle regine vergini ,i meccanismi che regolano la vita nella piccola famiglia di api del nucleo di fecondazione non sono completamente chiari, o perlomeno non hanno una conoscenza diffusa che permetta una differenza qualitativa sensibile delle api regine. E questa ricerca apre una finestra sulla conoscenza di questi meccanismi :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:44:56 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: styrofoam hives - insulation and wraping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recently asked if styrofoam hives should be wraped. It seemed a basic question. I were asnwered a simple and efficent "no". But I found in Bee-L archives a post from Llyod Spear (6 Nov 2002) >I will add a couple of comments to what has been said >so far: >1. Their added insulating value is of little to no >benefit. Wood has an R >factor of .5 per inch of thickness. (If that is not >right, it is very close >to it.) So the standard wood hive in the US has an R >factor of less than 1. >The hives offered now by Betterbee and Dadant are as >good as they get, and >only have an R factor of 3. While more than 200% >better than wood, an R >factor of 3 is nothing of any value in keeping out >cold or heat. So I don't understand. Styrofoam hives do not provide a siginificant insulation improvment compared to wood hives... But, in opposite to wood hives, there is no need to wrape them ???? Explanations ? Hervé Québec - Canada ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 07:50:52 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > which has considerable data on drone fertility and sperm count within mated > queens. The problem with this experiment was that a standard method of semen counts was not used so that no valid comparison with other data by other researchers can be accurately made. A pity. Also everyone seems to throw their hands up in horror when they find that some drones do not have a lot of semen. Think about it. Does it logically follow that if a drone has a smller amount of semen than another, it will naturally follow that that semen will produce inferior offspring? If in a breeding program you are selecting for performance, then it would seem logical that you are looking for the drone to pass on the production characteristics of its mother. I would think that the quantity of semen produced does not matter. It is the genes in that semen that counts. It is often fraught with danger to compare humans to bees but look at IVF programs. The children produced in these cases that I know are often quite brilliant. There are cases of some problems but then there are problems with naturally conceived children. We say that queens mate with 7 to 15 drones (varys on who you talk to) but why will one queen mate with say 7 and the next 15. Does she know that she has not collected enough semen, hence the variation in numbers? If you can produce a drone that has a lot of semen then that is great but if you lose performance characteristics then what have you gained? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:49:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <3F82116B.2040608@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Keith Benson wrote: No problems at all? Reply: There once was an era called the Golden Age of Beekeeping that seemed to coincide with much advancement going on within agriculture in general worldwide. It concerned hybridization of plants for better crops, better breeding for cattle, sheep, goats, chickens, etc and yes, included honeybees. Knowledge was said to be expanding rapidly for feeding the world's people. Many organizations were born to allow people to come together to exchange ideas and information. In athletics it became the Olympics (sidenote here). But seriously, in beekeeping in the 1930s it came together with Apimondia in a Paris meeting I think (could be wrong). I won't say there weren't any problems, but problems were certainly few, at least compared to today! Makes one wonder why and what has happened for so much to take place within the span of 100 years or so in the name of progress. 135 countries effected now and still it seems to be growing. The need for preserves to help right all of this by man? You ever read Rachael Carson's book, Silent Spring? A lot got going back in the late 1960s, early 1970s to try to correct things back to a better way. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:24:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Canada/US border to Open for Mainland Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The letter following this article has been circulating in Canada recently and may be of interest to BEE-L readers. Now that 1. Both mites are widely distributed in Canada, and 2. NAFTA, was signed a while back, committing Canada, the US, and Mexico to lowering trade restrictions, and 3. Since, over the past decade and a half it has become obvious that cutting off trade with the US has been very harmful to many Canadian beekeepers, not to mention the southern beekeepers who lost a major portion of their package and queen business 4. Powerful opposition to the ban is building in Canada 5. Some US and Canadian beekeepers are complaining about favouritism shown to new Zealand and Australia even though NZ has varroa -- and has exported infested bees -- and AUS has SHB, and since Australia, moreover does not test exhaustively for varroa incursion, and since 6. Beekeeping in most of Canada is very highly dependent on annual imports of stock from warmer regions 7. US beekeepers have demonstrated that they are able to maintain healthy bees in spite of the mites. 8. There is a. No evidence that AHB genes are not already in Canada b. No evidence that AHB has proven to be a public health menace in a developed temperate country as fear mongers had predicted At this point, there is little justification for maintaining an embargo on US mainland bees and CFIA is relaxing the ban on mainland queens and is re-examining the legitimacy of maintaining the package bee ban, and considering ways and timeframes to phase it out. I have dealt with the issue in several pages of my diary -- http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ -- over the summer and editorialized on the question as well. For those interested, just start at the current page, and go back a few pages. (Sorry, but I have not isolated the border discussion from the background noise of my life chronicled there). At any rate, this is the time for any US parties who feel they have an interest in this matter to stand up and be counted. Many of us see no reason for any border controls on bees whatsoever, inasmuch as economic beekeeping in Canada is very highly dependent on annual imports of stock from warmer regions. Wide-open two-way trade could be very beneficial to beekeepers in both Canada and the US. Please write, fax and phone your position to the parties listed below and to the Canadian Honey Council http://www.honeycouncil.ca/ and to provincial organisations. Also your congressman, etc. Attend the upcoming Canadian meetings. allen --- begin quoted letter --- Subject: Importation of Honeybee Queens from Continental US The Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) is proposing to amend the current regulation that prohibits the importation of honeybees from the continental United States. The amendment will allow the importation of honeybee queens and their attendants from the continental U.S. Packaged bees will continue to be prohibited from importation. This action is being undertaken after CFIA was advised of major shortages of available queens in many provinces during the spring of 2003 and was requested to review Canada's import policies for honeybees. The risk assessment on the importation of U.S. bees also determined that the import of honeybee queens poses a lesser disease risk than packaged bees. The proposed amendment will not result in the uncontrolled entry of honeybee queens into Canada. The existing provisions of the Health of Animal Regulations require importation to occur with the use of an import permit. The conditions of the import permit will be further developed with industry and other stakeholders Could you please circulate this to the provincial apiculturists and regional industry associations. If there are comments or concerns at this time, I would ask that they be forwarded to Dr. Samira Belaissaoui, Staff Veterinarian, at belaissaouis@inspection.gc.ca or by facsimile to (613) 228-6630. I would also remind Canadian Stakeholders that they will have an opportunity to comment on the proposed amendment following its publication in the Canada Gazette I. Yours sincerely, Dr. Sarah Kahn, BVSc, MSc Deputy Chief Veterinary Officer and Director Animal Health and Production Division Tel: (613) 225-2342, Ext. 4602 Fax: (613) 228-6631 E-mail: kahns@inspection.gc.ca http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:47:12 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several comments have been posted relating to the study on Queen introduction and rates of success as undertaken in Australia. Taken simply (!), it seems that the age of the Queens at time of introduction plays a role in the success of the introduction. It has been suggested that the ideal moment for queen introduction is at the age of 28 days. Presuming both Queen breeders and Beekeepers are wishing to increase the overall % introduction success rate, would it not be logical for the Breeders to do the following. When sending out queens; indicate on the package (or what ever is used) the date of birth of the contained queens. Beekeepers would then, where possible, be able to introduce the queen on her "28th" day. With follow-up, successful or not, could be noted with feedback to the Breeders . If the age is a factor, then Beekeepers will be happy, whilst breeders having one less reason for being blamed about low % of Queen takes. It would take some organisation, and not everybody would respond - but after a short period of time, indications of whether the age is a factor in success would become apparent. Comments? Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:47:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: styrofoam hives - insulation and wraping In-Reply-To: <20031007194456.72774.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, [iso-8859-1] Hervé Logé wrote: > So I don't understand. Styrofoam hives do not provide > a siginificant insulation improvment compared to wood > hives... But, in opposite to wood hives, there is no > need to wrape them ???? > > Explanations ? > First, a disclaimer: I've never dealt with styrofoam hive bodies. Anyway, from observing my own hives, the benefit of the wrapping is not so much to increase insulation, as to prevent drafts. The bees don't heat the entire hive interior, they just heat their cluster, and so as long as there are no jets of cold air impinging on them they manage fine even when the hive interior gets very cold. I think the insulating value of the hive body only matters if the cluster runs up against the side, in which case the cluster has to deal with wind chill on the side that they are up against (and maybe heat conduction by the wall). Provided that the styrofoam bodies fit together snugly, there should be no drafts, and so wrapping will probably not be needed. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:46:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee said: . But seriously, in beekeeping in the 1930s it came together. in the thirties beekeeping in the U.S was at its lowest ebb. Tens of thousands of hives were being burned to try and get a handle on AFB. The trend continued until around 1944 when sulfa was found to control AFB (at the University of Missouri) thus saving the industry. Burning alone will not control AFB when *out of control* *UNLESS* you burn all colonies. Desperate beekeepers were hiding hives to prevent the USDA from burning their hivee thus making the control of AFB even more difficult. Golden age of beekeeping? I think not! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:59:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Mosquito Spraying In Eastern Virginia Starts MondayOctober 6th Comments: To: James Fischer It is my understanding that spraying of mosquitos will soon happen in northeast North Carolina as well. I just have a few thoughts to share and want to first reflect on two different posts to this list: Jim mentioned: "At least the state is making an effort to spray only when bees will not be flying." Back on the 13th of August Dave Green posted: "Also, in a year of concerns for West Nile, we see one of the most important mosquito predators - dragonflies, wiped out of an area in a few minutes. At http://gardenbees.com/cotton%20spray/cottonspray.htm Dave vividly documented what happens to non-targeted insects and other creatures when spraying occurs - worthy of publication. It saddens me and it makes me upset to see so many beneficial critters put to death by unlawful spraying of insecticides. After Floyd there was spraying of mosquitoes as well, but then there was no west nile virus in either the Carolinas or Virginia at that time. Mosquitoes have been around for millions of years, they are not going to go away. Soon, very soon, the water temperatures in the marshes and swamps along the coastal plain of Virginia, and the Carolinas will be too cool for the mosquito larvae to mature and hatch, perhaps the spraying of mosquitos this late in the season will result in more harm than good, but then I am not a biologist. I just hope that ample notice is given so that hives can be covered, the feral hives will be left to fend for themselves. It would be a shame if somehow some feral hives in the Dismal Swamp were destroyed that were resistant to both trachael and varroa mites as well as AFB;.... But that is highly unlikely. Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::