From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:19:48 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-84.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SARE_FRAUD_X4,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5180C48FBA for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdI011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0310B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 174304 Lines: 3861 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:07:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Mosquito Spraying In Eastern Virginia Starts Elixer of Death MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Dibrom, yuk, another Elixir of Death. I think you beekeepers in the areas to be sprayed should pool up and try to stop the spaying of the Dibrom. It affects far more than just the Mosquito. Why would they want to poison all to try and stop west nile? http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/mevinphos-propargite/naled/ insect-prof-naled.html http://www.chem-tox.com/brevard/contents.htm http://www.chem-tox.com/brevard/main.htm . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:54:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Trevor said... > Also everyone seems to throw their hands up in horror when they find that > some drones do not have a lot of semen. Think about it. Does it logically > follow that if a drone has a smller amount of semen than another, it will > naturally follow that that semen will produce inferior offspring? There are two aspects to this... The first is semen amount. Variability in semen quantity is natural and does not concern me other than the purely practical fact of more loads of semen need to be collected per insemination (in the case of small volumes) and possible lack of genetic diversity in the case of larger volumes. The crunch comes when the drones are dry, there are always a percentage of drones (even those of calibrated age) that are dry, but the problem is occurring more often and the percentage of dry drones appears to be rising. The second aspect of semen volume per drone is coupled to what Trevor said about mating frequency... > We say that queens mate with 7 to 15 drones (varys on who you talk to) > but why will one queen mate with say 7 and the next 15. > Does she know that she has not collected enough semen, > hence the variation in numbers? I think the answer to this lies more in genetic diversity than in numbers of sperm per spermatheca. In good weather mating, in drone assemblies the figure of 7 -15 is about right. In poor weather mating and supercedure strains the figure is more like 10 - 25. We know that this is not for volume reasons, because the spermatheca is 1 - 1.1 microlitres and each drone will produce around 1 microlitre. I think this is a mechanism that increases the chance of diversity in situations where inbreeding is more probable. The extra volume that is collected is expelled after some homogenising has been done. Another aspect of the document (that I have now read more thoroughly) is the apparent correlation between clipped queens and sperm count. can anyone throw any light on that? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:29:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Mosquito Spraying In Eastern Virginia Starts Elixer of Death In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:07 AM 10/8/03, you wrote: > Why would they want to poison all >to try and stop west nile? Spraying won't stop west nile. It is here to stay. More interestingly even though we have had one of the wettest summers here in Ohio and the mosquitos are as thick as I have ever seen, cases of west nile virus are down compared to last year, which was very dry with very few mosquitos. Officials here are saying it's because the large mosquito population has spread out the disease reducing the chance of getting bit by an infected mosquito. From this I would expect that spraying would just make west nile worse, not to mention kill other valuable insects. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:17:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Mosquito Spraying In Eastern Virginia Starts Elixer of Death In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 7 Oct 2003 at 22:07, Keith Malone wrote: > Dibrom, yuk, another Elixir of Death. Dibrom was used here in 1989 after Hugo. But I think Malathion used in that way does as much damage. It took a decade for bumblebee populations to recover to normal levels. They told me to protect my bees. Yeah, right! They'd spray in one day (and I could not find out from day to day where), over several sites where I had bees, half of which I could not access anyway because of fallen trees and mud. It basically sunk my business. I had 1300 hives in the summer of '89. In the summer of '90 I had about 600 and a whole lot of wax worm-eaten equipment. And that was after buying a lot of bees to refill my hives. Widespread aerial spraying does MUCH more ecological damage than agricultural spraying. At least with the latter, you are applying only on a field, that is more or less monoculture anyway. With large aerial spraying projects, there are no "islands of safety" - no places for the good bugs to hide and replenish. A widespread application will often lead to later pest population explosions, because it removes the natural controls. It will depress the adult mosquito population temporarily, but the long-term effect is to increase it. In this case it is late in the season, and the effect will be next spring and summer, which means that people will not be putting together the cause and effect. It seems that these projects are unstoppable at the present, as Jim said "declaration of emergency," politics, and the huge amount of money that's to be made by the pesticide companies (not to speak of what they'll make later by getting another area on the pesticide treadmill). But do the best you can to document the long term effect. We are voices crying in the wilderness. But perhaps we can get some attention if we can offer concrete evidence. So get out the cameras, camcorders and record the effects, guys. I can't offer much more hope than that. Stupidity seems to be spreading, especially when it's well financed. I just did a story on local spraying for mosquitoes, where I went around and identified (and photographed) the mosquito breeding spots. In the spots within a couple hundred feet of the breeding spots, mosquitoes were biting the day after the spray. A week later they were still biting and mosquitoes were still breeding at the spots. Rather than soaking the neighborhoods with a toxic chemical, they could have eliminated better than half the breeding spots and the rest could have had some Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis applied to biologically control the larvae. Some folks accused me of bias as a reporter. Yeah, I'm biased in favor of good science. Dave Green SC USA Garden Bees http://gardenbees.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:20:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Wrapping Styroform hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herve is confused, and that is easy to understand. In the Northeastern US and Eastern Canada many more hives are over-wintered without wrap than those that are wrapped. Moreover, it is easy for beginners to "over-wrap", thus not providing enough ventilation and killing their hives. What do beekeepers around you do? Parts of Quebec have very severe winters, and parts have relatively mild winters. I have mostly wood hives, but Styrofoam as well. I think the Styrofoam wintering advantage is in the cover, which provides much better protection from condensation than do the wood telescoping covers. In my opinion, the added insulation in the sides is of little value. My advice...do what your neighbors do. There are many many beekeepers in Quebec and there must be many in a climate similar to your own. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:24:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said:. whilst breeders having one less reason for being blamed about low % of Queen takes. I do not know if queen age is a factor or not but would like to comment on the constant pointing the finger at queen breeders. Queen breeders many times are not the cause of the problems in my opinion! Not to say queen breeders do not ship an inferior batch of queens once in a while but I have seen many beekeepers blame the queen breeder for problems encountered when the blame should be on the beekeeper. Unlike Yoon & myself many will not admit problems in their operations (even to their friends ). In other words if through improper handling during shipping, improper care given the queens while waiting to be introduced , caged for weeks prior to introduction or poor introduction because of weather etc. many beekeepers will blame the queen breeder if they get a poor introduction. The customer is always right is the policy with queen breeders I have met and many bite their tongue dealing with customers. When tracheal mites were taking out half the commercial hives in the U.S. in the 80's many beekeepers were still blaming the weather and poor queens. The same when varroa first hit. The weather has taken a great deal of blame for winter loses which were in fact due to poor beekeeping practices (and at times queen breeders). Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:40:10 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said: whilst breeders having one less reason for being blamed about low % of Queen takes. Bob replied: Queen breeders many times are not the cause of the problems in my opinion! So I say: I quiet agree! But as then explained, for many reasons - the Breeders do bear the brunt of complaints and are treated as the origin of many failings. Hence, my comment. If introduction techniques were to be improved by having a better understanding of what is required, resulting in higher % of takes, there would be less grinding of teeth in the direction of the Breeders. Whatever the outcome from the Aussie. study and others in the future - it is evident that the links between Breeders and Beekeepers needs to be as "live" as possible. Certain individuals in both activities do maintain good links and pass information back and forth. This would increase in value if more transfer of comment occurred. There is little point in basic moaning - what is essential is that constructive criticism and comment occur. Anyway, I still have to spend a fair time trying to absorb the observations made in the Aussie trials! Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:52:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Geez, It's quiet... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did everyone get a life? or is the LISTSERV down? I came home and there is very little coming in from BEE-L. After a deluge, maybe this is a dry spell? Not a bad thing, actually. But it is a puzzle why some days we get more than we can read, and others... nada. Anyhow, I got to thinking... What is the most important idea I learned on BEE-L? There is no doubt that BEE-L has taught me a lot. I've spent almost a decade here, and now I'm retiring from beekeeping. This weekend, if all goes well, I will have zero (0) hives, for the first time in 30 years+. Of course, next spring, I'll buy 200 (well maybe 300) or so packages and away I go again, but for now... I'd like to hear from others, but I'll go first. The most important thing I learned -- IMO -- is that all beekeeping is local. What I hear from others -- be they 20 miles, or a continent away -- may not apply to my situation, or it may. The important thing is that I must make careful, independent, unbiased observations on my own, and only then consider what others report. That's mine. what's yours? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 22:22:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Skriba Subject: Re: Geez, It's quiet... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, Interesting observation about what one has learned from the List. Myself, I have learned that everyone has there own way of doing things, what works for you may not work for me and vice versa. I have learned that thru the years, everyone does things just a little different. I try to take a non-judgemental approach, blend the ideas and practices of others with what I do to make it work for me. This is probably one of the few times that I have responded to the list, but I thought that it was a very good question. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 19:27:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <001901c38d24$e41c39e0$5da59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all: I did say: . But seriously, in beekeeping in the 1930s it came together. To which Bob Harrison wrote: in the thirties beekeeping in the U.S was at its lowest ebb. Tens of thousands of hives were being burned to try and get a handle on AFB.The trend continued until around 1944 when sulfa was found to control AFB(at the University of Missouri) thus saving the industry. Reply: Nah, this cannot be! This was the Golden Age of Beekeeping and honey production was at it highest, especially for the war effort. When did this AFB start? Can you be more specific? Tens of thousands of hives burning and beekeepers hiding hives? Sulfa you say in 1944! But I thought Terramycin is used to control foul brood. Nah, something wrong here, this was the Golden Age of Beekeeping, for it was widely known that bigger was better and bees make more honey this way! Bob Harrison then wrote: Burning alone will not control AFB when *out of control* *UNLESS* you burn all colonies. Reply: Don't believe this either! Dr Jaycox used to take foul brood combs to bee meetings and show around. Those that couldn't process the combs got burned, but those that could did not. We just simply retooled the wax. Didn't you retool your wax too? Trade it for new foundation? Nah, still believe this was the Golden Age of Beekeeping. Bigger was better and many big outfits came into being. Many big associations also. Certainly couldn't do that if things were bad! Besides it is only foul you talk about and AFB. Look at what we got to deal with today. Chalk, nosema, mites, beetles. You mention nothing about things going wrong with them, so cannot be too bad back then. The trend was to keep going bigger and bigger for more production.Don't do that if things are bad. Nope, it was a Golden Age of Beekeeping.Bee Breeding also for bigger queens to go with bigger bees and comb! REgards, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper http:groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:49:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Skriba Subject: Where it all began? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen asked a really good question about what we have learned from the Bee-L. I pose to you all this question: How did you get into keeping bees? Myself, I started in 1973. My grandparents took me to the local extension agent's office where there were pamphlets on beekeeping. I was always amazed at the observation hive at the local fruit market. I got as many books about beekeeping that I could get my hands on and read. I saved enough all winter long and ordered a complete beginners outfit from Sears. ( How many of you can remember the Farm and Ranch catalog?) My dad was friends with a beekeeper who heard that I had orderd the kit and said that 1 swarm wouldnt do, and gave me enough equipment to start 3 hives. My first bees were orderd from the York Bee Co. Almost 30 years and 150 swarms later, I am still as amazed about the whole beekeeping world as I was when I first started. I also wonder what drives us to keep on going back to the hives. Sometimes I find a familar similarity in that we derive a sense of pleasure and worth from earning some or all of our subsistence from nature. How many of you on the list have tapped a stand of maple trees for maple syrup, raised your own livestock for the table, brewed your own beer, greeted the opening day of deer season in a blind far away from where the road ends, with your children, ran a trapline, chased behind baying coon hounds at 2 am in a woods that you think will never end, planted a garden (big enough for you, your family, the neighbor across the road and his dentist)? There seems to be a common thread, be it rural, suburban or urban that leads us back to pry the cover off to take just one more look at the hives goings on. Through the course of time I have learned that for the most part we are a gentle bunch. Sometimes in life we move slow and deliberate, just like we do with the bees. But more importantly, I find myself humbled by things that I can't explain and sometimes things that I can, when I lift that first cover off that first hive in one of my yards. Its a feeling that I hope that I never lose. Anyways, I was just wondering what got you started in beekeeping and what keeps your smoker lit to keep on doing it? Bill Skriba Ithaca, MI :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 07:40:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Wrapping Styrofoam Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New beekeepers tend to worry about cold because of the effect it has on human bodies, but on the whole bees are better able to handle cold than wet. Depending on humidity, dampness probably kills out more colonies than cold, and therefore ventilation is of most importance. Since water vapour is lighter than air and therefore will rise (all other things being equal -i.e. no other strong air currents present), top ventilation is therefore important. Many beekeepers in the West of Scotland (the wet side) put matchsticks under the 4 corners of the top cover boards in winter to provide this top ventilation and to prevent the water vapour recondensing on the inside of the cover board. However Lloyd's advice of asking your beekeeping neighbours is sound. Alan Riach Edinburgh :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:30:10 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Wrapping Styrofoam Hives In-Reply-To: <3F8502D1.7040006@which.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > However Lloyd's advice of asking your beekeeping > neighbours is sound. Unfortunately, the few beekeepers I know around do not use styrofoam hives, as far as I know. Nevertheless, they all wrap their wooden hives. So, if I consider L. Spear's post on Styrofoam R value and his conculsion, I guess I should wrap my styrofoam hives as well (my wooden hives are already wraped). I read a lot about wintering and wraping (books, Bee-L archives and current discussion, Bio-bee list, many web sites among those Allen Dick's site, Chapeleau's site and Dave Cushman's site, etc.). So I am aware of different "wintering and wraping recepes". But I find hard to make my own rational and logical opinion among those different theories and discussions. The old long debate between closed top versus top ventilation is probably the best example. I understand that the wintering and wraping strategy depends on the local climate. But I am under the - maybe - naive impression that scandinavian winter should not be so different from winter in East Canada (because of vegetation and lanscape similitudes). So I wonder why wintering insulation methodologies seem to be conflicting. Hervé Québec - Canada ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:03:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: How much of a golden age is merely gold plating . . . was Re: [BEE-L] Organic honey In-Reply-To: <20031009022731.4577.qmail@web12404.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: >Reply: >Nah, this cannot be! This was the Golden Age of Beekeeping >and honey production was at it highest, especially for the >war effort. > Ahhh the Golden Age. "Golden Ages" exist purely in the mind of the sentimental. They can only be perceived with a retrospectroscope tuned to maximum subjectivity. I belevie Jim F can do the calculations necessary to provide the settings to at least the thrid decimel point. . . . ;) If you had the ability to travel back in time to the so called "Golden Age" of anything, and asked around - the vast majority would fail to perceive how good they have it. >The trend was to keep going bigger and bigger for more >production.Don't do that if things are bad. > If, as is often suggested, cells were upsized to enhance honey production, there was apparently an active effort to improve a perceived problem, not that life was sweet and golden and carefree. It suggests, to the careful observer that someone perceived things to be less than idea, and was looking for a remidy. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:00:47 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Geez, It's quiet... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What have I learnt from Bee-L? It is more often what has Bee - L confirmed!!! Beekeeping is confusing to many. Some relish in communicating and trying to explain and help others with their concerns. Others absorb, without making a noise. That beekeepers are viewed as a strange bunch of individuals - but consider themselves as perfectly normal people. It is the rest who don't understand. I have learnt that beekeepers usually want to feel that they belong to a community, then argue with dedicated principles with each other. Bee - L has helped globalise the process. My bees aren't your bees - but I want to do as you do, because you get lots of honey and I get lots of swarms. And finally, Bee -L has taught me to type, so: Long may it continue!!!! Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 06:50:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Geez, It's quiet... In-Reply-To: <004a01c38df7$37978020$75b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > Anyhow, I got to thinking... What is the most important idea I learned on > BEE-L? There is no doubt that BEE-L has taught me a lot. Three things but all connected. Bees are better at keeping bees than a lot of beekeepers. Because of that, those same beekeepers are able to corrupt the knowledge base and lead new beekeepers into ultimate failure (until they also fail). So learn from someone who has been around for a long time, is successful, relies on science, and lets you know they do not know everything about bees. (I have my honor roll of beekeepers on this list who fit that. Plus one who is not on the list - Tony Jadczak.) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:42:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Geez, It's quiet... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all > The most important thing I learned -- IMO -- is that all beekeeping is > local. What I hear from others -- be they 20 miles, or a continent away -- > may not apply to my situation, or it may. The important thing is that I > must make careful, independent, unbiased observations on my own, and only > then consider what others report. These are Allen's words, but they could just as easily be mine... It is not that some ideas a right and others are wrong (although this does occur) but mainly if all circumstances are taken into account the different management methods each work in the circumstances pertaining in that area. As far as regional variations are concerned, I have had remarkable differences in apiaries that are only a few miles apart, in a twenty five year period I have had more than twenty different apiary sites (yards), none of which have been more than 22 miles from my home, but the characteristics of each site take much observing and learning to get the best from them. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 06:32:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: Where it all began? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I grew up on a small dairy farm. We did raise our own meat and the opening day of hunting (or fishing)season was a big event. In the attic I found an old copy of ABC-XYZ of Beekeeping. I read it cover to cover a couple of times. When I found some old hives in the barn, I was off. This was in the late 40s ... right in that "golden age of beekeeping" Dee talks about. All my bees came from feral swarms and before you get too romantic, know that they were definitely mean! I got honey for a year or two from 4-5 hives and then they died. I suspect foulbrood. No-one ever counseled me nor did I ever talk to another beekeeper. My high point was when I painted the queen and put a display hive in a fair. Got in the local newspaper. I was about 14-15. At 70 I'm just getting back into it, with a drive to do it right! All 8 of the first wave died in the winter. Going into the second winter with 16. BTW... I'm not using pesticides nor Terra. The guy I know who has 500 hives and uses only FGMO (for 5 years), migrates once each year... and never loses more than 10% a year, convinced me. Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:18:29 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: Geez, It's quiet... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For me, Bee-L has meant good news/bad news! It brought me up to date on current trends and practices in beekeeping. That's good! The bad news, it is almost impossible to maintain bees without using chemicals. I began keeping bees as a 4-H project during WWII. My father encouraged it, partly as a response to sugar rationing. Currently, I am maintaining one or two hives, mostly for pollination. No interest anymore for selling honey. The few years I had no bees, we seldom saw a honeybee anywhere. Going from "up to date" on beekeeping after thiry years or so to having to "start over" after the arrival of mites and the necessity to treat with something has sometimes been discouraging. Can't help but think back to "the Good Old Days" as I sit reading the give-and-take on different approaches. You can become an old timer simply by sticking around. Yesterday's knowledge only goes so far. Leland Hubbell, Central Ohio :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:17:45 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Asian Lady Beetles? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several years ago someone introduced what they are calling "Asian Ladybugs" to this area. They are similar in size to the typical ladybug, but mostly orange or yellow colored rather than red. While most people look with favor on the Ladybug, these beetles have become numerous and obnoxious. They cluster this time of year, and enter houses in droves. Handled, they emit a foul odor. I noticed a couple hanging around the bee hive, but have not seen any inside. While normally feeding on aphids, they have been working on fruit this year. They were working on my pears, with maybe twenty or so eating a cavity into the fruit. The State Extension requested reports of such activity, which I did. The question: How widespread is this beetle? Any notices of them eating fruit in your area, or entering hives? Leland Hubbell Central Ohio :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 09:12:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: History of AFB in the U.S. not in books (wasOrganic honey) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee, Listen and learn as I speak the truth. Most of those beekeepers which were involved are dead now. Dee asks: When did this AFB start? After the depression I have been told by many large beekeepers which went through the problem. Dee asks: Tens of thousands of hives burning and beekeepers hiding hives? Across the U.S. AFB was spreading in many areas (possibly not in Arizona) and the only allowed cure was burning. According to those which lived through the problem (and told their stories to me in person) every time the bee inspector came hives had to be burned it seemed. The hives were the beekeepers in many cases only way of making a living. The law was that burning was the only method (like in the U.K. I believe today). A hatred for bee inspectors came about. When I got my first bees in Florida bee inspectors were still not popular. Bee inspectors were under pressure to get a handle on American Foulbrood by the USDA. . Heated arguments happened between the bee inspection service and beekeepers (commercial & sideline) over the number of hive needing burned and even fistfights in Florida between *Florida Crackers* ( Florida slang for several generation Florida natives) and bee inspectors. Many beekeepers said to let AFB kill off the susceptable brood nests and they would breed a strain of bees from the survivors (sound familiar?). Often only a ploy to prevent the inspection service from burning hives. New inspectors which had little experience were hired to help with the problem. Causing problems with lifetime experienced commercial beekeepers over hives chosen to be burned. No bee inspector was allowed to wear gloves while doing inspections to keep from spreading AFB. Ever wonder where that rule came from? Now you know! I talked to a bee inspector later of the period and he said the disrespect he got from beekeepers was almost unbearable. Beekeepers begain to set up remote apiaries and try to control AFB without help from the inspection service ( trying many methods which were not allowed.) And even the old Quinby and escape methods wrote about in the old turn of the century bee books. We know now those methods were doomed to falure most of the time because the bees carried the AFb spores in honey with them into the new hive. Dee said: Sulfa you say in 1944! But I thought Terramycin is used to control foul brood. Come on Dee you are exposing an incomplete area in your beekeeping knowledge. You always quote from Roy Grout so will direct you to reading from the 1946 "Hive and the Honey Bee" by Roy Grout.(page 271 ) Sulfa was used first to save an industry and teramycin came later after sulfa contamination was found in honey. If you have got acess to these articles you can follow the history. Discovered the method: Haseman, L. and L. F. Childers (1944). "Controlling American Foulbrood with sulfa drugs" Mo. Agr. Expt. station bult. The great beekeeping pioneer G.H. Cale wrote an article about the Haseman and Childers discovery for the American Bee journal 86(11):464. Prior to the Haseman and Childers discovery only the Quinby and escape methods had been tried but we know now both had a less than 50% change of success due to the fact the bees could be taking AFB spores with them in honey. If you note Dee there is zero mention of terramycin in the 1946 Hive and the Honey Bee. Also in going through my collection the 1946 book is also the first to mention sulfa for AFB prevention and possible control. Use of sulfa was NEVER registered in the U.S. but was sold at most be supply houses at the time. Terramycin was later approved as the industry needed a safer drug to use. Bob Harrison then wrote: Burning alone will not control AFB when *out of control* *UNLESS* you burn all colonies. Reply: Don't believe this either! Dr Jaycox used to take foul brood combs to bee meetings and show around. Dr. Elbert R. Jaycox is a favorite of mine. I have got all three of his books and believe they will be collectors items fifty years from now. I believe you can still purchase all three from bee supply houses with a little checking. Will post Jaycoxs changing posistion on AFB in another post as this one is getting long and I have spent a great deal of time (which I should be spending in the honey house extracting today) and long posts no matter how interesting get deleted by those with lives in the fastlane! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri beekeeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:22:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: phil MOORE Subject: Re: Wrapping Styrofoam Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . Since water > vapour is lighter than air and therefore will rise (all other things > being equal -i.e. no other strong air currents present), top ventilation > is therefore important. Reply Can this be right? Air laden with water is lighter than air? I use polystyrene hives with no top ventilation, all have open mesh floors and wintering so far has been much more successful than with wooden boxes and with less stores used. Every time I have attempted the matchsticks under the crown board trick they have filled the gap with propolis before Christmas perhaps suggesting that the bees "prefer" no draughts? Regards Phil Moore :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:23:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Wave Subject: Re: imported beetles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are experiencing swarms (can I use that word?) of these beetles here in northern Illinois due to a warm spell we're experiencing. They have covered MY house as well as the bee houses. The hives are covered and look spotty orange from a distance. I sat by the hives for an hour to make sure they were not overwhelming the bees and getting into the hives. They have also covered the fruiting crab apple branches, along with the box elders. A neighboring farmer told me some bean fields have been spared thanks to the imported beetle, but I am wary. Would love to hear opinions on this subject. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:32:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: History of AFB in the U.S. not in books (wasOrganic honey) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison then wrote: Burning alone will not control AFB when *out of control* *UNLESS* you burn all colonies. This is out of text but was the position at the time. When you have got a yard of 10-40 hives and half or better are dying with AFB then to be sure the problem will be solved (and not only prolonged) all hives were burned as most likely (and from prior USDA experience) through robbing and drifting bees all hives had AFB spores and without a drug treatment (which was not allowed) the rest would soon fall to AFB. Many beekeepers in desperation wanted to try the Quinby method (described by Dee) but laws at the time did not permit the method. Dee said; Don't believe this either! Dr Jaycox used to take foul brood combs to bee meetings and show around. I have also! New beekeepers need to see first hand AFB to help learn! I believe you might have a Jaycox book around so will quote from his books. "Beekeeping in Illinois" was his first book (1969) Jaycox only quotes Illinois state law in the book on pg. 104. The method used by Dee (Quinby method) would have been illegal to use in Illinois in 1969. " Illinois state law REQUIRES the burning of colonies infected with AFB" Only the top, bottom and hive bodies can be saved after scorching. "The colony must be KILLED and ALL the CONTENTS of the hive burned, INCLUDING BEES, COMBS,FRAMES,and HONEY in a pit and the ashes covered afterward." The above was the law in every state I have kept bees in. Many beekeepers used the antique Quinby method which in my opinion prolonged the problem for other beekeepers. I asked Steve Tabor a couple years ago about his research on finding a bee which will survive with AFb and Steve told me he had a hive in which he could go and remove AFb at any time. I found his information interesting but consider such a hive simply a vector for AFB. On page 104 Jaycox states and recommends: "two medicinal agents that are valuable for prevention of AFB are sulfa and terramycin." As the years roll on Dr. Jaycox position changes. In 1976 he wrote "Beekeeping in the Midwest" ( my favorite) By then sulfa drugs were turning up in honey so no mention of sulfa in the book and he dropped the Illinois only about burning and added the below. from pg. 136: " most state laws REQUIRE burning of colonies of bees infected with AFB" so 16 years later burning is STILL the method. Teramycin is talked about as a preventative but Jaycox STILL recommends burning for active AFB. I have read all of jaycox books several times and can't find one place he recommends anything but burning for active AFB. Did he tell you your method is the way to go at a meeting? If so does not sound like the Jaycox I know. In his last book "Beekeeping Tips and Topics" published in 1982 Jaycox is pushing the regular use of tarramycin in hives (pg. 127) and has this to say in his chapter on " The Natural Control of Bee Diseases" (pg. 126) "AFB seems NOT to fit into natural control , because colonies almost invariably die when they become infected with bacteria of the disease" On page 121 Jaycox lashes out at beekeepers using sulfa drugs. Wow big change from his early book! Jaycox said: " A western beekeeping assn. noted in a recent newsletter that members can pool their orders and buy sulfa together. What a great way to invite trouble and to demonstrate a disregard for regulations designed to HELP beekeepers and to protect their honey. Since writing this I have not received any more copies of that newsletter" bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:07:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, Well almost noon and still in the office so will address the below by Dee also. Think of me while I am extracting until late tonight because of playing on BEE-L Dee! If I don't get with the program before long I will miss the next episode of "Survivor Pearl Islands!" Dee said: We just simply retooled the wax. Beeswax melts at 160 F. Takes a heck of a lot hotter temp to kill spores of AFB. Dee asked: Didn't you retool your wax too? Nope! I have got enough projects to keep me busy! Dee asks: Trade it for new foundation? I do old melted down *brood combs* once in awhile but plastic is the only way to go as far as I am concerned. After you have used plastic awhile (I have got both plastic and wax comb) you begin to dislike beeswax only foundation. Maybe other beekeepers have got time to mess with incorrectly drawn beeswax and beeswax comb full of drone cells but I do not. The above is easily solved with plastic. Bob Ps.last post of the day! Steve H. I will answer your post as soon as possible! Please bear with me! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:02:06 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Wrapping Styrofoam Hives In-Reply-To: <000701c38e79$220a6740$339b4c51@x7j6t5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I use polystyrene hives with no top ventilation, all > have open mesh floors > and wintering so far has been much more successful > than with wooden boxes > and with less stores used. Thanks for your answere. What were your results ? Mine are also on mesh floors. > Every time I have attempted the matchsticks under > the crown board trick they > have filled the gap with propolis before Christmas > perhaps suggesting that > the bees "prefer" no draughts? Strangely, this week, my bees grab into the small pieces of styrofoam I inserted in the roof holes in order to reduce top ventilation. They even grab into entrance reductors I installed (while I was thinking they really needed it)! Sometimes, I think that I do not understand my bees better than my wife... ;-)) Hervé Le Rucher d'Émélys www.emelys.com ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:45:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 6 Oct 2003 to 7 Oct 2003 (#2003-276) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: Makes one wonder why and what has happened for so much to take place within the span of 100 years or so in the name of progress. 135 countries effected now and still it seems to be growing. One BIG factor I think would be transportation. Think about how much the world has shrunk transportation wise in the last one hundred years. Anything that can move from one part of the world to another in less than 24 hours can carry anything and that thing can stay viable for the most part to the destination. Just had a report on evening news this week of a python, very rare species, being found after hitching a ride on/in a fruit container from Central America to the port of Mobile, Alabama. Currently it's in a local zoo and they are trying to find matches to the snake in other zoos around the U.S.. MIKE :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:49:11 -0600 Reply-To: Mathew Westall Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mathew Westall Subject: Bees in the news - Illegal chinese imports & choramphenicol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Following the five page synopsis in October's Bee Culture magazine concerning "the Problem with Chinese Honey", the story was picked again detailing a couple purchasers of supected trans-shipments from China containing chloramphenicol residue. http://www.american-reporter.com/2,194/4.html Here's the intro. Read the rest on the link above: ----------- Vol. 9, No. 2,194 - The American Reporter - October 2, 2003 An A.R. Exclusive CONTAMINATED CHINESE HONEY PUTS SARA LEE AND SMUCKERS IN STICKY SITUATION by DeWayne Lumpkin American Reporter Correspondent Grants Pass, Ore. GRANTS PASS, Ore., Sept. 29, 2003 -- Two of America's best-known brands, Sara Lee and J.M. Smuckers, have found themselves embroiled in a sticky situation involving Chinese honey smuggling that has roiled the global honey industry and led to investigations and recalls. Two federal agencies and both companies acknowledge they have a problem with companies that disguise the origin of Chinese honey contaminated with a powerful antibiotic that in some cases can cause anemia, The American Reporter has learned. Meanwhile, members of the American Honey Producers Association worry the reputation of their honey could be tainted by contaminated imports and fear a panicky consumer reaction like those involving Japanese apples and pesticides several years ago. U.S. Customs Service and Food and Drug Administration investigations have already led to recalls of some honey in U.S. and Canadian restaurants. ------------------------ // Earthling Bees - Matthew Westall >8(())))- "Take me to your feeder" \\ Castle Rock, CO, USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:12:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Nigerian scam to beekeepers?? I have seen a few versions of the Nigerian scam, but today for the first time in 6 years I have seen this one specifically crafted for beekeepers...I have no definte proof yet, but it surely sounds fishy! Anyone else has received this one? I must say they are really creative in scamming people! Zachary Huang MSU http://photo.bees.net (over 600 photos related to bees!). ******************************************************* ATTENTION: I'M THE FORMER CHAIRMAN OF BEE KEEPERS ASSOCIATION OF ZIMBABWE.AND THE PAST GOVERNMENT COMMITED SOME FUNDS TO MY CARE FOR BEE KEEPING PROJECT IN WHICH I'VE SUCESSFULLY GET A GOOD RESULT. NOW, I'VE WELL PARKED HONEY IN ABURDANT WHICH I'LL LIKE YOU TO ASSIST ME IN EXPORTING IT AS THE NEW ADMINISTRATION NEVER SHOWN INTEREST IN THE PROJECT . IT'S IN PERFECT CONDITION OF THESE QUALITIES; 1. NOT WAXED 2.MOISTURE - MAX. 18% 3.DIATASE - MIN. 15% 4.ANTIBIOTICS - LESS THAN 10 PPB 5.GLYCEROL - MAX. 200PPM 6.YEAST - " 200.000/10 gr HONEY 7.STARCH CONTENT - MAX. 10% 8.COLOUR - AS PER AGREEMENT OBVIOUSLY,I WISH TO INFORM YOU THAT, THE FUNDS COMMITED IN MY CARE THEN WAS A HUGE AMMOUNT ,WHICH I'VE SUCESSFULLY DIVERTED INTO A SAFE KEEPING.AND I BELEIF WITH GOOD COORDINATION FROM YOU WE CAN BOTH USE THIS FUNDS TO INVEST IN BEE KEEPING PROJECT AND I WILL BE GLAD IF YOU CAN ASSIST ME IN DIVERTING THIS FUNDS TO YOUR CARE BEFORE NEW ADMINISTRATION'S AWARENESS. AS SOON AS I RECEIVE MUTUAL RESPONSE FROM YOU WE CAN DISCUSS FUTHER ON THE DETAILS.KINDLY GIVE ME YOUR PHONE/FAX NUMBERS FOR DIRECT CONTACT. THANKS AND GOD BLESS, REGARDS, MR. ALLKAB LATEEF. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:08:12 +0200 Reply-To: apimo@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: Wrapping Styrofoam Hives In-Reply-To: <20031009170206.77023.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I use polystyrene hives with no top ventilation, all > > have open mesh floors > > and wintering so far has been much more successful > > than with wooden boxes > > and with less stores used. the very same I do, except that I have a sheet of plastic over the top box, because I use a simple polystyrene isolation in my roof and the bees love to eat this away. So do also the chickens if the polystyrene hive boxes get a wound. The bees propolise the plastic sheet to the top box, leaving no aircondition. > > Thanks for your answere. What were your results ? Mine > are also on mesh floors. I think Denmark have a climate like the Canadian Vancouver area. We have water all around and because of this a wet climate. I have good results from my polystyrene hives. For now I have had about 10% looses,Average thrugh all the years i have been using polystyrene hives (more than twenty Years) > entrance reductors I installed (while I was thinking > they really needed it)! Sometimes, I think that I do > not understand my bees better than my wife... ;-)) Try to use some foam gum as entrance reduction. I use this when moving my bees or feeding them. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software added Italian and Czechs language and made a heavy bug fixing. See the bug report page and the what's up page home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:27:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: phil MOORE Subject: Re: Wrapping Styrofoam Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Strangely, this week, my bees grab into the small pieces of styrofoam I inserted in the roof holes in order to reduce top ventilation. They even grab into entrance reductors I installed (while I was thinking they really needed it)! Sometimes, I think that I do not understand my bees better than my wife... ;-)) Reply: I think you will find that bees will always dig into expanded polystyrene in the hive, but poly hives are made of a much more dense compressed polystyrene. Regards Phil Moore :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:22:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: Nigerian scam to beekeepers?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got basically the same message but without any mention of bees or honey. I referred it to the FBI site. They responded with a note that said: WE know about this; We're watching it; Don't respond to them it's a scam! Wow! Our tax dollars at work. Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:05:12 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The crunch comes when the drones are dry, there are always a percentage of > drones (even those of calibrated age) that are dry, but the problem is > occurring more often and the percentage of dry drones appears to be rising. I hear this statement a lot nowadays and wonder. With the advent of Instrumental Insemination, we are now in a position to be able to look at drones and see how much semen is evident during the collection process. However, how did we determine before that drones were dry? If we were not doing II then we had no way of knowing. The other aspect is, is it all the chemicals that beekeepers are forced to use that is the culprit? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:23:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Inger Lamb Subject: Re: imported beetles In-Reply-To: <131.24f8775f.2cb6d757@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Multicolored Asian lady beetle (ladybug) has been "swarming" on the warm sides of tall structures all over the Midwest. They are looking for a place to hibernate. Try these websites for more info: http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/iiin/ladybeetles.html http://ohioline.osu.edu/hse-fact/1030.html Inger :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:47:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Wrapping Styrofoam Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply Can this be right? Air laden with water is lighter than air? Yes, H20 is lighter than O2, although I am sure that the answer is not quite that simple, since the result of combining air and water vapour is likely some kind of solution. Besides, the air laden with water vapour is generally warmer than surrounding air and would therefore rise all other thngs being equal. From an empirical POV, we see that, after a rain, the water dries up and forms into clouds, normally well above the earth. > Every time I have attempted the matchsticks under the crown board > trick they have filled the gap with propolis before Christmas perhaps > suggesting that the bees "prefer" no draughts? We calculated the equivalent area of such a crack under the lid one time here on BEE-L, when this same idea was mentioned and got 1/16" x 18-1/2" x 14-1/2" = 16.8 square inches. That is equivalent to a hole four inches by four inches! Moreover, the draught is distributed all around the hive. Maybe a good idea for warm areas, but not wise in cold regioins -- IMO. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:01:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Varroa? No worries! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every Spring for the past few years, as commercial beekeepers with thousands of hives, we placed one strip of Apistan into each surviving hive around the middle of March or in early April. Each Fall, as brood rearing came to an end, we placed drop boards under about ten percent of our hives and picked the boards up a few days later. We counted the mites dropping from natural mortality, and that way, we could see if our treatment was working, or even necessary for that matter. Although I am down to 68 hives (soon to be zero), the results for 2003 are now in. I have posted them at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/drops.htm, along with some pictures of the boards, and a test for those who care for such things... allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:50:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Honey Judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not sure how many of you out there judges honey at local county fairs, but I just finished today doing the Black Walnut Festival in West Virginia. Either a person made a mistake and entered sorghum as honey which they could have picked up the wrong jar when leaving for the fair, or they didn't know I would be opening every jar to taste it for quality. I just hope they goofed and submitted the wrong jar. Anyway they didn't get any ribbons for it. I hope all you who judges honey at county fair do taste the contents for what its entered as. Many will just look at the jar and turn it upside down to watch the bubble(s). :-) American beekeepers need to be the best or more foreign honey will be sold then US honey. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:35:48 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Wrapping Styrofoam Hives > Can this be right? > Air laden with water is lighter than air? Yep, that's right. (I doubt if this point will be argued to the point of name-calling, so I will dare to post a message and attempt to explain.) First, we need a cubic foot container. Mine are much nicer than the usual Tupperware stuff, as they weigh absolutely nothing, and are perfectly clear. Expensive, but well worth it. (The cubic meter ones cost even more!) OK, so we fill two containers with "dry air". But what's really in "dry air"? If there is NO water vapor in the containers, they have about 78% nitrogen molecules, each having an atomic weight of 28. About 21% of the air is oxygen molecules, with an atomic weight of 32. (Let's just ignore the other 1%, as it is a mix of other semi-random gasses, and will just complicate things.) Now these cubic foot containers are vented, so individual molecules can move in and out. If we add water vapor molecules to one of our cubic feet of air, some of the nitrogen and oxygen molecules would be pushed out. Avogadro discovered long ago (1800s?) that the total number of molecules in our cubic foot of air must stay the same if we do not change the temperature or pressure. (Newton knew this also, but did not know [or never explained] why. Avogadro explained the mechanics, so he gets credit for the "discovery".) But what's water's atomic weight? 18! Much lower than either nitrogen or oxygen. So as we add water, the water molecules that replace nitrogen or oxygen are lighter than either the nitrogen or oxygen. Even a small difference in humidity can result in "lighter air". "But wait a second", you think - "water CONTAINS oxygen! How the heck can water be LIGHTER than oxygen?" Yes, water does contain oxygen, but only one atom. Oxygen gas is a molecule with two oxygen atoms. Each oxygen atom has an atomic weight of 16, and a hydrogen atom has an atomic weight of 1. H2O is water. 2 Hydrogens and 1 oxygen. 2 + 16 = 18 O2 is oxygen gas. 2 Oxygens. 2 * 16 = 32 So, when we put our containers of "dry" and "humid" air on a balance, the "humid" air weighs less. In technical terms, replacing some of the nitrogen and oxygen with water vapor decreases the density (and thereby, weight) of the same cubic foot of air. But does this really matter all that much in a beehive? Not really. Temperature matters much much much much more. The effects of temperature and barometric pressure on air are much much greater than the effect of humidity on air density, but humid air >>IS<< lighter than dry air at the same temperature and pressure. Offhand, I'd guess that "water vapor effects" really only matter in beehives that are overwintered in locations were bees would not survive without things like hive-wrapping, places where the air temperature is so low that the air warmed by the bees is cooled to the ambient temperature before it gets anywhere near the top of the hive. In most places where bees are kept, when you combine the effect of the exhalations of the bees (which are warm), the heat mass of a bee cluster (which has to warm at least some of the air in the immediate area), and the water vapor from the bee exhalations, you have air that is sure to "rise", or at least not sink to the ground. That's why inner covers can get damp in unvented hives here in Virginia to the point where the cheap ones made with masonite will actually warp or "bulge". jim (A recognized expert on "hot air") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:03:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Gene Scan Tracks a Bee as She Grows Up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gene Scan Tracks a Bee as She Grows Up http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=570&ncid=753&e=3& u=/nm/20031009/sc_nm/science_bees_dc :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:23:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Trevor & all > I hear this statement a lot nowadays and wonder. With the advent of > Instrumental Insemination, we are now in a position to be able to look at > drones and see how much semen is evident during the collection process. > However, how did we determine before that drones were dry? If we > were not doing II then we had no way of knowing. When I first started breeding bees I was alerted to the 'hit and miss' drone situation (by Beo Cooper). As a result I have been 'popping' drones for more than 20 years... I never recorded the results, but my impression is that the decline has been smooth and relentless. The advent of varroa in UK (1991) and the chemical treatments that go with it coincided with an increase in the interest and practice of II. Hence the increased reportage of drone dryness and the concluded linkage between it and the chemicals. I personally am not so sure, I think there are two processes going on... The first is a short term effect caused by treatment chemicals being administered in a short timeframe. The second (and to my mind the more significant factor) is a general decline of male fertility and an increase in cross gender problems that occur in many different animals and organisms... This has been linked to release of oestrogen mimicking hormone-like chemicals that are the breakdown products of DDT and other chemicals that were widely used before their effects were fully known. Of the two, we can limit the effect of the medicating chemicals by simply not applying them immediately before a breeding program is embarked on. The second is not controllable, all we can do is to hope that the residual chemicals run out before male fertility drops to a degree that it affects the survival of animal populations on this planet. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 01:35:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Wrapping Styrofoam Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I think you will find that bees will always dig into expanded polystyrene in the hive A strip of duct tape over all inside edges of the hive seems to stop bees from doing this. As someone on this list mentioned a short while back: duct tape–the beekeepers friend. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:51:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: queen honey bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit “The second (and to my mind the more significant factor) is a general decline of male fertility and an increase in cross gender problems that occur in many different animals and organisms....” A while back, maybe a year or so ago, there was an intriguing article in The New Yorker, talking about the low sperm count now common in human males, as well. The trouble is, though, it is difficult to tell whether the “decline” is a recent phenomenon resulting from our chemical-saturated environment (could very well be) or a cyclical fluctuation in nature—-just like the expanding ozone hole down under. We need a whole lot more data, going back to ages to confidently declare the existence of “decline” in drones’ spermatozoa. Sadly our data [plural] do not go as far back as we wish. In the meantime, we produce a whole lot more synthetic compounds annually, never knowing the long-term, multi-layer interaction of these new, unnatural stuff. Daily, these compounds churn in your veins as well as in mine, red as mad, ever lurking for an opportunity to seed a malign growth. Our great, great grand fathers did not have such in their blood stream, nevertheless. Welcome to the Brave New World, Pardner [sic]. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:20:20 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Wrapping Styrofoam Hives In-Reply-To: <038201c38ebe$11ac97c0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer a écrit : > > Offhand, I'd guess that "water vapor effects" really > only matter in > beehives that are overwintered in locations were > bees would not survive > without things like hive-wrapping, places where the > air temperature is > so low that the air warmed by the bees is cooled to > the ambient > temperature before it gets anywhere near the top of > the hive. > Glad you are posting on the list again after a break. There is not doubt hot (and humid) air will rise up in the hive as far as there is a top ventilation. The question is where will condensation happen, depending on hive insulation setting. And here come, two other simple thermodynamic considerations : "l'effet de paroi" (what I would litterally translate into "inner wall effect", I do not know exact english vocabulary for this) and dew point directly linked to the himidity in the air, air temperature, ventilation flow, outside temperature and humidity and inner surfaces temperature (so we are back to insulation and R value). The aim is to know if droplets will appear on surfaces, and how they will flow down (on bees, along side wall...). Hervé Québec - Canada ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:23:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: queen honey bee In-Reply-To: <200310101451.h9AESiJs029712@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit yoonytoons wrote: > The trouble is, though, it is difficult to tell whether > the “decline” is a recent phenomenon resulting from our chemical-saturated > environment (could very well be) or a cyclical fluctuation in nature—-just > like the expanding ozone hole down under. We need a whole lot more data, The issue is not settled. There may be no decline. See http://www.practicalhippie.com/sperm.htm for both sides of this human inner discourse. As far as bees go, cumophose is a organophosphate and they have been implicated in genetic problems in animals, including infertility. Which is why they are on the way out as pesticides. Bill Truesdell (Could this be a grand conspiracy, allow beekeepers to use organophosphates - but not anyone else- in order to stamp beekeepers out forever? First THEY bring in Varroa and ....) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:30:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Organophosates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill said "could this be a conspiracy...allow beekeepers to use organophosphates - but not anyone else-" This summer I had occasion to learn that the list of permitted organophosphates is very long. For example, I am advised that every apple orchard in NYS uses one (ok, may choose to use one) for a particular bug that is resistant to all else, and the same is true for every grapeyard. It would not surprise me if "the list" is more or less deliberately unpublished. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:03:01 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: AFB etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all: For info: There is a series of interesting abstracts and articles on AFB and Antibiotics (residues and analytic techniques) etc. on the web site of www.apiservices.com Open the English language section and "click" on "New Pages". >From there, make your selection. Excuse if this old news to some! Regards, Peter PS - Good news! I shall be off the net until ? as from 20/10/2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 8 Oct 2003 to 9 Oct 2003 (#2003-278) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ Dean wrote: "Either a person made a mistake and entered sorghum as honey which they could have picked up the wrong jar when leaving for the fair, or they didn't know I would be opening every jar to taste it for quality." I have extracted fall honey up in Indiana (in late September) which was a dark honey with a richly robust flavor not unlike sorghum. Personally I like the dark, robust honeys better than the water white legume sourced honeys. I would hate to think that the honey mentioned above was disqualified simply because Mr. Dean has not experienced the dark fall honeys that are available. MIKE :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:28:47 +0200 Reply-To: Derek Steed Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Derek Steed Subject: Re: Wintering nucs (was wax foundation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have experience with the Mini-Plus breeding hive for overwintering queens? This is a foamed polystyrene hive holding 6 quarter-Dadant frames each 218*160 mm, 252mm top bar. Two frames can be pushed together forming one shallow Dadant frame. Two Mini-Plus brood chambers can be used to overwinter a small colony to provide a queen in early Spring.In Germany a Mini-Plus costs around 20 Euro. Regards Derek Steed :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:08:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 8 Oct 2003 to 9 Oct 2003 (#2003-278) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had 2 county farm agents agree with me they tired to submit sorghums for honey. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 09:59:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Bee genome Have you guys seen this about the genome project? There's something interesting about bees supressing genes of other bees to keep the right ballance between foregers and nurses. http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/10/10/bee_genes031010 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:36:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: Bee meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On October 7,2003 the Franklin County Bee Association had a seminar on over-wintering colonies. Our instructor Dennis vanEngelsdorp (acting state apiarist for Pennsylvania) presented an overview of the biology and practices of over-wintering bee colonies in south central Pa. Two practices Dennis strongly stressed were: 1. Take your winter losses in the fall. 2. Requeen annually with local queens. Dennis eloquently explained the connection between colony size, metabolic water, disease, brood raising and cluster biology. Brood raising in an average size colony commences approximately 45 days after the formation of the winter cluster. This relates to the accumulation of water in the colony. Colony size is a major factor in the over wintering of a colony. Small and medium size colonies fare better than large colonies. Nosema plays a role in this fact. Water and temperature balance are an important part of the biology of the cluster. High temperatures cause a water loss; low temperatures cause a water gain. A bee in the shell of a cluster moves to the center to evaporate the metabolic water. Nosema upsets this balance. We were recommended to maintain upper entrances in our top boards, as well as to set a super full of straw on top of the upper board. This is to aid in the absorption of water and ventilation. Api-life Var is not performing real well in this area. The product needs 5-7 days of temperatures maintained above 60 degrees and not above 90 degrees. When our night temperatures stay above 60 our day temperatures are above 90. The recommendation to requeen with local queens raised a problem. We do not have a large supply of locally raised queens in south central Pa. Of course we were told to get in the business and raise them. The Pa meeting at Lewisburg was recommended as being an informative meeting to attend. This is a minor summary of the meeting on Oct 7. Dennis is an informative speaker and is actively involved promoting and bettering the honey bee. Tom Martin Shippensburg Pa :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:17:22 -0700 Reply-To: "simp3210@bellsouth.net" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "simp3210@bellsouth.net" Subject: Re: Bee genome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [BEE-L] Bee genome > Have you guys seen this about the genome project? There's something > interesting about bees supressing genes of other bees to keep the right > ballance between foregers and nurses. > > http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/10/10/bee_genes031010 > What i found more interesting about that study was this quote "Scientists predict they will have the honeybee genome completely sequenced in the next few months. They hope it will help honey producers improve their colonies." Using the same type of study, it appears to me, could identify the genes responsible for excellent honey production, temperament, propolizing, spring build up, and even hygene. Maybe the GM bee is the answer to V.D. Mark in Memphis > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:20:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee genome Comments: To: "simp3210@bellsouth.net" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Scientists predict they will have the honeybee genome completely sequenced in the next few months. They hope it will help honey producers improve their colonies." We are all optimistic that sequencing the honeybee genome will lead to exciting new discoveries in beekeeping. Mark said: Using the same type of study, it appears to me, could identify the genes responsible for excellent honey production, temperament, propolizing, spring build up, and even hygene. Maybe the GM bee is the answer to V.D. To be honest most researchers I have talked to think mapping the genome is only a tiny first step in research. I prefer to be optimistic like Danny Weaver and hope real changes in solving beekeeping problems will be solved through the honey bee genome project! Many other insects were in line to be mapped but through the efforts of Danny Weaver and others the honeybee was pushed to the top of the list. I also know one of the queens mapped was a Danny Weaver SMR queen so maybe the phenomenon of SMR might be explained through genetics. If even a part of the things Mark talks about on his *wish list* happen because of the genome project I will be happy! Bob is excited about the project while others are not but the way life goes! I personally have heard enough from other beekeepers about the project being a waste of time. Bob "On the lighter side" . Was not too long ago many beekeepers thought genome ( gnome) was one of a group of dwarfish , little old men , living in caves and guarding buried treasure until Danny Weaver explained the word was genome and not gnome! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 12:22:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrea Desilets Subject: MA Beekeeper's Assoc. 2003 Fall Meeting and Honey Show Comments: cc: beekeepr@gis.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Who: "Dr. Sting," Jim Higgins will speak on Products of the Hive and Apitherapy and Rick Hough, Master Beekeeper, speaking on Eastern Apicultural Society & Integrated Pest Management When: Short Session on Friday, October 24, 2003 7:30PM & Meeting/Honey Show on Saturday October 25, 2003, Reguistration starts at 9:00AM Where: Best Western Royal Plaza Hotel, Fitchburg, MA Directions: Take Route 2 ti Fitchburg. Take Exit 28 (Rte. 31). Head south on Route 31; the Hotel is on the right. For room reservations call 978/342-7100 or 888/976-9254. For more information and registration instructions, please refer to the Massachusetts Beekeepers Assocation website: www.massbee.org thank you, Andrea Desilets MassBee Treasurer _________________________________________________________________ Instant message during games with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:00:37 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: Re: Bee genome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Once the genome of the "Honey bee" has been established, it will be then open to manipulation. Taking the above statement as one that is easy to type - the future fruits from the work will be possibly more difficult to harvest. Transfer from knowing to using the knowledge will be difficult and pose IMHO many problems. Problems arising from what will be decided as common objectives. Then actual design of how to attain the sought after objectives. What will be wanted by some will no doubt be considered as unwanted by others. Will this lead to a collection of haphazard organisms being released on to the market? If a disparate genetic concoction becomes available to the general beekeeper, will it result in uncontrolled spread of genes into the bee pool? I suggest that much care is placed in to future option choices that may open up to breeders. They will bear a great responsibility in steering the future direction of our industry. I look forward to the future - but at the same time worry greatly. As said before - there is a need for many people to take note of developments, get involved in discussions and work together - Researchers, Breeders and end users, the Beekeepers. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 07:41:06 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Bee genome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is interesting to see that this project seems to be nearing completion. My question is how will the information that is gathered be able to implemented in a practical way? Will it mean access to a DNA lab where we will be able to go to have our bees checked for the correct genes? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:42:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: Re: Geez, It's quiet... I have learned that the world of beekeeping is larger than my local not necessarily inspiring group that meets for store bought fried food talk about how they can't sell their honey. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 21:43:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Geez, It's quiet... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe said; I have learned that the world of beekeeping is larger than my local not necessarily inspiring group that meets for store bought fried food talk about how they can't sell their honey. Right now honey is in demand in the U.S. and bringing top dollar. Both bee magazines run articles every month on ways for the small beekeeper to market honey and hive products. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 21:35:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee genome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor said: It is interesting to see that this project seems to be nearing completion. Dr. Kerr's wildest dream is coming true! I know very little about actual implimentation but will try to answer your questions after the January meetings Trevor. Trevor asks: My question is how will the information that is gathered be able to implemented in a practical way? Dr. Kerr proved over thirty years ago isolating genes could make whatever kind of bee you desire. Checking queens in a breeding program to make sure the queen is carrying the genes you are breeding for would be my guess. I am only replying to this post because I doubt Trevor will get others to comment but I know there are others on BEE-L better suited to answer as rearing queens is only a small part of my beekeeping. To those on the list wanting to learn about bee genetics I would recomend looking beyound the 92 edition of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" and going back to the 1975 edition which is avilable from most public libraries. My friend Joe Graham seeking to make genetics easier for the average beekeeper to understand writes quite different than was published in the early edition (1975)by G.H. Cale & W.C. Rothenbuhler. I was told years ago that Dr. Kerr had developed a *fast track* method for improving honeybee genetics. The fast line method and most of the information including the chapter on " Bee Breeding possibilities" (pg.181 copy 1975) was edited out of the "92" edition. I doubt the information contained in the 1975 edition will ever be added into the next edition of the Hive and the Honey Bee but copies of the "75" edition are easily found.With the mapping of the "honeybee genome" interest in honeybee genetics might become popular again like was the case when the 1975 edition was published. Trevor asks: Will it mean access to a DNA lab where we will be able to go to have our bees checked for the correct genes? Don't know but I suspect a bee DNA data bank will be setup. I am only a beekeeper and not a researcher but I would guess one could run DNA every rear on a queen from your breeding program and tell if the genes you are breeding for are in the queens you are raising. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 20:46:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Inger Lamb Subject: gene changes during bee development MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting article, click on the link below Inger http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/10/10/bee.genes.reut/index.html Gene changes tied to behavior in bees :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:51:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: Winter ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Riach said: "top ventilation is therefore important. Many beekeepers in the West of Scotland (the wet side) put matchsticks under the 4 corners of the top cover boards in winter to provide this top ventilation and to prevent the water vapour recondensing on the inside of the cover board." When I was keeping bees north of Indianapolis, Indiana, I put small blocks of 3/4" wood between my inner covers and outer covers. Only had bees for about six years up there before I moved to south Texas, but never lost a hive over the winter (between six and eight hives). Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:15:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Varroa? No worries! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Part of what Allen wrote in his diary: “For some reason, varroa is not giving us much trouble. For the past several years, the only treatment we have used is a single Apistan™ strip placed in the centre of the cluster in the early spring and left for 42 days. Our tests always show very low levels of mites, much lower than when we used two strips in the fall plus several formic treatments. Granted, we had a dry year in 2002, and we spilt heavily this year, and both these factors tend to reduce varroa loads, but, nonetheless, we did not split all hives, and when everything is considered we still are seeing lower levels that we would expect and lower levels than we saw in the past.” On a top-bar hive site at Yahoo a group member posted some remarks in conversation with another group member. The person gave permission to post them here. This is part of what was written: “The Varroa mite was detected in Grenada for the first time in 1994 and in the beginning it wrought havoc among both kept as well as wild bee colonies, especially insofar as the viruses vectored by the arthropod are concerned. After a few years, however, the surviving population seemed to have adjusted itself to it and the initial disastrous effects of the attack did not occur anymore, especially in hives living in the low, drier areas. We did some control utilizing organic essential oils with excellent results, but after fifth or sixth year no one bothers too much about Varroa anymore, even though it is present throughout the Island. No Africanized bees have entered Grenada up to now, but they do exist in some Islands of the region. For many years I was involved in commercial production of primary hive products, as well as in teaching beekeeping in Grenada and other Caribbean territories, but since about 15 years ago I decided to explore the possibilities offered by the addition of value to honey, wax, propolis and royal jelly and ended up trying to make a living producing several lines of beauty products (soaps, creams, lotions, shampoos, lip balms, massage creams, etc), ornamentals (candles) and medicinal products (for humans and animals). At the same time I started getting deeply involved in apitherapy and for the practice of which I have five hives. By providing technical assistance to several local beekeepers I get the primary products required for my cottage industry, without having to break my back too much. I am in the process of finalizing an Apitherapy Internet Course conducted by Dr. Stefan Stangaciu from Rumania, and have the honor to have as fellow student a Lady from Serbia, to whom I mentioned your arrival as a new member in the TBH chat group.” Is there light at the end of the tunnel? Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:03:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee genome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Once the genome of the "Honey bee" has been established, it will be > then open to manipulation... > Will this lead to a collection of haphazard organisms being released > on to the market? There seems to be an assumption that mapping the genome is associated with gene manipulation by non-traditional techniques, as in the case of GMO plants. There is no such direct linkage. That type of genetic manipulation has been able to proceed this far in the absence of genome mapping, and, although, perhaps having a clearer idea of the function and location of genes might make gene insertion more accurate and effective, that is not the purpose of the project, nor necessarily a certain outcome. We have discussed here the question of genetic manipulation of bees and, with the high cost and uncertain outcome, combined with a small and fragmented market -- and no way of controlling propagation -- we concluded that the idea would not likely attract much capital or talent. The genome mapping in question here is for purposes of understanding life in general. Thus representative species from different branches of life have been selected, and the honeybee has been chosen because of an number of factors, one being its social nature. It is expected that having this map will result in many new discoveries and applications, and a better understanding of many organisms, including man. > My question is how will the information that is gathered be able to > implemented in a practical way? The people involved in genetic work state -- as an example not directly related to the genome project -- that if specific genetic markers and patterns are known to correlate to specific desirable (or undesirable) characteristics, that small samples from the larval skin or a tiny fragment from the foot of a queen believed to carry those characteristics can be assayed before she is even hatched. Knowing with certainty the traits carried by an individual queen can identify immanent errors in breeding before they happen, and expedite the selection process. > Will it mean access to a DNA lab > where we will be able to go to have our bees checked for the correct > genes? I gather that Baton Rouge already has this capability, or is working to that end. USDA has several other people who routinely do genetic assays on bees and other organisms of interest to agriculture and apiculture (such as AFB and SHB). allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:22:03 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee genome High expectations appear to exist for short-term applications of the Honey Bee Genome project: >> My question is how will the information that is gathered >> be able to implemented in a practical way? The current project is mere "map making". It will take quite some time to figure out what specific genes do. This work is ongoing with the human genome, and periodic reports appear in the press about discoveries of the exact gene for this or that. The "first draft" of the human genome was published two years ago. The "final draft" was released this summer, but even this is subject to revision, and will continue to be annotated and explained long after we are all safely and cozily dead. >> Will it mean access to a DNA lab where we will be able to go >> to have our bees checked for the correct genes? This question assumes that anyone knows "correct" from "wrong", which I feel is premature. Yes, some breeds of bee that appear to show some limited superior traits will be sequenced, but your bees are certain to have a number of "differences" when your bees' sequences are compared with the "reference" bees, and no one would be able to tell you much about what the differences mean. Here's a good example. The few members of the list who have seen me know that I wear one of the more impressive collections of freckles on the planet. My older sister does not have any freckles. We might have our respective DNA sequenced, and as we are brother and sister, the sequences would be very similar. But would we be able to find the gene for freckles by looking at the differences? Not a chance. Yes, the gene is somewhere in the differences, but we would need to study sequences from hundreds of different people just to be able to narrow down segments of the human genome that are present in all of the freckled people, and consistently NOT present in the non-freckled. Even after mapping a large "survey", we would have nothing but a list of "suspect" DNA fragments. Finding the exact gene would take much more work. > Don't know but I suspect a bee DNA data bank will be setup. There are several public mirrors of this data for the other animals mapped. One of the most useful is at UCSC. Take a look, it is pretty: http://genome-hg8.cse.ucsc.edu/cgi-bin/hgTracks ...OK, not very useful to a beekeeper, but I assure you, it IS useful to people who do this work. (I don't do genes, so don't ask me to explain much of it.) I am sure that the honeybee data will be placed into the public domain, and I expect it to appear at places like the UCSC website/database. > Dr. Kerr proved over thirty years ago isolating genes could make > whatever kind of bee you desire. Exactly. The >>isolation<< of specific genes will take time and effort. Even then, genes are NOT simple switches. You can "turn them on and off", but the actual results are often highly unexpected. As an example, you turn off the gene for freckles, and find out that the resulting organism is much less intelligent, a side-effect well-known to all freckled people. :) Here's another problem - humans have about 75,000 different proteins. Howcome the human genome only contains about 34,000 genes? No one has an answer yet, but clearly, the "switches" are multi-purpose, multi-function gizmos, rather than simple "on/off" switches. Here's another "weird" thing - round worms (about the simplest animal around) have a body with no more than 1000 cells, and a brain with just over 300 cells. It's genome has 18,000 genes. The fruit fly is much more complex in every way. Its genome has about 13,000 genes. Even though fruit flies and roundworms are popular subjects for genetic experimentation, no one can explain the counter-intuitive gene counts. Just the eye of a fruit fly has more total cells than an entire roundworm, but somehow, fruit flies have a "shorter" genome. Sequencing the mouse showed that mice have roughly the same number of genes as humans, So we have something like: Round worm 18,000 genes Fruit Fly 13,000 Mouse 34,000 Human 34,000 Not what you'd expect, is it? Complications like the above have resulted in most of the "genetic manipulation" done to date being limited to splicing in an existing gene with a known trait from another organism. But such work cannot even start without a map, so we are lucky to see that bees are being looked at before other agricultural organisms. Over time, the work >>will<< be done, and there certainly will be tangible results of a practical nature. But not this year, and not next year. I, for one, look forward to a modified bee that I have often mentioned. Bees need specific genes from the firefly, to allow hives to be worked in the evening without flashlights. The "glow in the dark bee" would revolutionize the industry, allowing commercial beekeeping to go on "round the clock" in shifts, and allowing hobbyists to work their hives in the cool of the evening. :) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:04:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee genome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I gather that Baton Rouge already has this capability, or is working to that end. I should clarify the above. In a presentation we saw last winter at Kansas City, specific patterns of genes were compared visually on slides for similarity. The slides represented gene patterns, and showed dark and light coloured vertical bands, vaguely like a UPC bar code. The purpose was to compare or identify specific patterns in specific areas of the slide representing a particular bee in question, and confirm that the bee in question carried the expected genetics -- as I understood it, anyhow. Specific genetics can apparently be identified with reasonable certainty, and are known to characteristic of particular strains, but, as for knowing exactly what the patterns mean, or designing a bee from the ground up, that is a very long way off. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:43:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 8 Oct 2003 to 9 Oct 2003 (#2003-278) In-Reply-To: <000f01c38fb7$3e2e1360$cf124941@frontiernet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Russ Dean wrote: "Either a person made a mistake and entered sorghum as > honey which they could have picked up the wrong jar when leaving for the > fair, or they didn't know I would be opening every jar to taste it for > quality." I have on my kitchen table a jar of buckwheat honey. It is the same black as sorghum, nearly as thick as most molasses (which is a sign of moisture content being slightly less) and tastes nearly the same as molasses. Everything I've heard about buckwheat honey leads me to believe it all comes out this way. On the other hand, my spring honey always has a different taste from most I've had elsewhere (growing up, I thought the wax caused this, as my grandfather kept bees in the same place and his honey had comb in it). I suspect it is just the unique collection of hardwood trees, berries and other spring flowers in this area. Many who have bees in the area have never tasted honey with the same "taste" and some have wondered if something was done io it: the answer is no. He (and I) cut honey with a cold knife (although I used heated one year and noticed no difference). It's just different. A shame a real beekeeper would disqualify honey based on taste alone (one reason that taste is not allowed as a criteria at our fairs). K. Oland --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:59:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J" Subject: Dead Colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Folks, This one really puzzles me. I was doing some end of season colony checks and found one that downright shocked me. The colony was completely dead except for a few stragglers. I had last checked this colony about 5 or 6 weeks ago when pulling honey. It was very strong. I left at least 50 lbs plus anything they had stored in the brood area. We have had a spotty Fall flow but most colonies have brought in a fair amount. The best way to describe what I saw would be akin to a winter deadout. There was no honey left, but there are other colonies in the yard so it would have been robbed. There was at least 5 -6 lbs of dead bees. The entire bottom board was covered as was the entire inner cover. They died in pretty much of a cluster covering about 8 frames. We have had a couple of cool nights that would have caused a cluster to form but nothing prolonged and the bees are flying everyday and still bringing in nectar and pollen (aster). There is no real sign of disease or a! nything. There was capped brood that appeared healthy. Quite frankly everything was the way you would like to see it. I had thought maybe pesticide use but it just does not add up to that. The other three colonies right next to it are fine except one is a little light on stores. The only other cause I can come up with is starvation but that would have meant going through a fair amount of stored honey during a honey (albeit not a strong) flow. One other thing is I can not ever remember finding a dead colony with a large amount of dead bees on the inner cover nor ever remember losing a colony this time of year. Any thoughts? Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:37:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Dead Colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ron ponders: > One other thing is I can not ever remember > finding a dead colony with a large amount > of dead bees on the inner cover nor ever > remember losing a colony this time of year. My swag is your bees got to robbing and the other colonies beat this hive to death. I had something similar happen to a pollen harvesting hive (ditto I had never seen anything like it before) about a week after I removed the pollen trap. I'm guessing robbing (dead bees much as Ron described) but truth be told I'm really not sure. I will be interested in reading others' responses. Aaron Morris - Taking Scientific Wild Assed Guesses! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:15:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Dead Colony (Starved?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Bogansky wrote: "The colony was completely dead except for a few stragglers....The best way to describe what I saw would be akin to a winter deadout. There was no honey left,..." ***************** In Chester County (southeastern Penna), I've heard two recent reports of similar colony deaths. My five colonies have _no honey_ stored in them. I started feeding yesterday. In autumn 2002, several people in Chester County began feeding in early autumn. Bees _seemed_ busy and colonies appeared to be filled with bees both summers. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@fast.net (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 39.95 N 75.53 W :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:17:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Re: Dead Colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I left for a month on aug 15th, returning Sept 15 or so. I left a small but healthy nuc out back. I live in the city and know of no other hives nearby. I was dissapointed to find the hive full of dead adult bees. I assumed pesticide. Then, since they had no honey, I assumed robbing. Would robbing account for 3 inches of dead bees inside the hive? I had left 5 gals of water that had turned brackish. I had also fed them, mixing the syrup with city water. (This has flouride but I use it all the time with no problems.) It couldn't have been robbing because there was some sugar syrup left. (And I've been trying to bait some robbers without success.)If this had happened in a bee yard I'd be really worried. Dickm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:50:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Dead Colony In-Reply-To: <9B89EBD60691F9488516490B654C2DD516301B@us0366exmp.america.apci.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 13 Oct 2003 at 14:59, Bogansky,Ronald J wrote: > There was at least 5 -6 lbs of dead bees. The entire bottom > board was covered as was the entire inner cover. Was there a lot of cappings mixed in with the dead bees on the bottom? Bees can get very robby this time of year, particularly if there's a good flow on and it's stopped suddenly by frost. Bees are somewhat robby even here in SC where goldenrod is at peak. Apparently they aren't getting a lot. At this time of year, it's easy to get them started when you work the bees. A little wet burr comb left on the ground to give them a taste is all that's needed to get it started. If you had honey supers on with a hole or crack, that's another place where robbing often starts, as they don't guard it as well as the main entrance. Then, once they are going, the colony loses morale and they can enter anywhere. I've seen yellow jackets also take a weak colony too. In fact you can see a movie of one such attack a couple falls ago on my web page. Time, at least in northern USA, to reduce the entrances...and check for other openings. Duct tape is the beekeepers friend for the latter... Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com or mirror http://pollinator.info :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:00:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Dead Colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ron, Determining what caused the demise of a colony was easy before mites. Not so easy now let alone over the internet. > There was no honey left, but there are other colonies in the yard so it would have been robbed. You can usually tell a robbed hive by looking at the comb for ragged edges. > There was at least 5 -6 lbs of dead bees. The entire bottom board was covered as was the entire inner cover. I do not understand the covering of the inner cover but 5-6 pounds of bees would not be what was left of a *strong* hive . >They died in pretty much of a cluster covering about 8 frames. If they died with their heads stuck in comb they starved. > There was capped brood that appeared healthy. This indicates the hive was recently queenright. >. I had thought maybe pesticide use but it just does not add up to that. Usually we find most of the dead bees out front of the hive with pesticide kill *but* not always. *If* a pesticide kill took all your foragers and all that was left was young emerging bees then your hive would be easy prey for robbers. However bees usually do not rob during a flow but will rob when a flow stops like a day after a rainstorm. >The only other cause I can come up with is starvation but that would have meant going through a fair amount of stored honey during a honey (albeit not a strong) flow. If you left 50 pounds of honey on like you said and the hive had plenty of bees starvation should not have been the problem *but* if the hive was robbed out then the bees which stayed to cover brood could have starved over one of the cold periods you talked about. Many times hives (even of commercial beekeepers) starve every year after honey supers are pulled if all the hives honey was in the supers which were removed. The reason most beekeepers either leave a super of honey for the bees or feed after pulling supers. > One other thing is I can not ever remember finding a dead colony with a large amount of dead bees on the inner cover Indeed strange! > nor ever remember losing a colony this time of year. I lose a few this time of year to queenlessness but if your hive was queenless for very long you would not have found capped brood and most likely would have seen signs of laying workers. I am afraid to guess on your hive as I believe the hive had a couple of problems and possibly even several problems all contributing to the failure but maybe the above might help you figure out the cause. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:41:30 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Organization: Home Subject: [Fwd: [BEE-L] Bee genome] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > The genome mapping in question here is for purposes of understanding life in > general. Thus representative species from different branches of life have > been selected, and the honeybee has been chosen because of an number of > factors, one being its social nature. It is expected that having this map > will result in many new discoveries and applications, > So, accepting that the mapping primary objective is for the good of us all (Human advancement et al.). The last sentence also exhibits indications of what is possible from the information gained. A list of base combinations will be published, reshuffled from time to time and investigated until their meaning is apparent. I suggest that once the base sequences add up to "this parcel does this and that section directs.....", there will be individuals (groups) willing to exploit. Exploitation need not be taken as the negative mode! Knowledge does not remain on a shelf. It will be used - as a stepping stone by other domains and sectors, and by the bee industry. As I previously stated, the jump from knowing the sequence to using it to our advantage will be a leap. Whether programs will be put into place using the knowledge gained in an isolated manner - i.e. knowing what does what resulting in breeding programs starting from zero base, or it being used to build on already defined requirements (enhancement towards the majestic V.d resistant bee), I presume the latter will be the case. I do not envisage the industry being left in the backwaters due to the lack of market or talent. How come there is and always has been dedicated work done on honey bees? I suggest that this attitude will leave us open to be taken unawares - and result in the lack of a proactive situation to develop. Realising that the precise future cannot be seen - the indicators are fairly clear. Whilst other sectors are already investigating the possibility of the removal of traditional pollination mechanisms (remember bees are already not welcome in certain areas of citrus production ) our industry should be highlighting and increasing the possibilities to be gained from the presence of bees. It is well recognised that pollination at the present is a weak link for agriculturists in their production cycle - one that is being increasing placed under pressure (pesticides, lack in availability, cost, timing restraints). How long will it be considered necessary to produce rape plants that generate nectar (would it not be more economical if this energy rich material was diverted directly into oil in seed). So, if a jump from genome knowledge to application is possible in the future - then we should be ready, asking for the development of bees that only see yellow flowers (dedicated rape pollination), fly during low temperatures, with restricted ranges, collecting nectars with known ranges of sugar concentrations etc. etc. (I do like putting etc. etc.!). Once in a while it is good to write a mail where the imagination is a free spirit and the contents maybe considered pie in the sky - but out there there are many pushing what was considered ridiculous only a few years ago. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 11:28:05 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: Bee language Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Wenner agrees that the bee dance contains distance and direction information, and he asks why, if bees have a language, some bees take hours to find the indicated food, and some never find it. If one asks the question: do bees use the distance and direction information in the dance to travel directly to the food, then the logical answer is that some do not, which may lead on to a logical conclusion that bees do not have a language. However, if one asks the question: how may bees use the information in the dance to maximise foraging success, then the fact that some bees take a long time to reach the indicated food source, or never do find it, is consistent with the use by these bees of the information to avoid the already-discovered source, in order to set out in other directions to search for new locations of the same food which they seek to locate by odour. After failing to find new locations, they may eventually arrive at the original indicated source, or may give up searching and return to the hive. The logical answer to this question is that indeed bees have a language. Regards, Barry Donovan Canterbury Agriculture and Science Centre, Lincoln, New Zealand. ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:09:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Dr Seeley comments on bee dance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In the Bee Talk column of Bee Culture (4-03), Richard Taylor cites Dr Thos Seeley's research as making the debate about the bee dance "no longer a matter of controversy." Great, I'm thinking, let's put this one to bed. Unfortunately Taylor cited no references, offered documentation for $3.06, and returned my money for lack of enough copies. I located Seeley at Cornell. He says Taylor probably refered to Fig 3.7 in his book The Wisdom of the Hive. To my question about Dr. Wenner's last posting citing resarch showing poor connection between dancing and successful foraging, he replied that he did not have time to check the references but "they do not contradict the idea that dance followers get location information from a dancer. What they do show is that dance followers are not always successful in finding the recruitment target indicated by a dancer, and that doing so is not an easy task, hence they generally need much time to do so. Evidently, a dance follower learns only the general vicinity of the recruitment target, she flies to this location, and then often has to execute a lengthy search to pinpoint the recruitment target. This last stage can be especially difficult in an experimental situation where the recruitment target is a tiny dish of sugar water, not a sizable patch of flowers. Incidentally, there has recently been published a study that has tracked (using harmonic radar) dance followers immediately upon leaving the hive as they start the search for the recruitment target. This study confirms the view that dance followers fly out in the direction specified by the dance. It may also confirm that they fly out to the distance specified by the dance, and then start searching for the target itself." Does anyone have a reference for this study using harmonic radar to track dance followers? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:49:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Dead Colony In-Reply-To: <071d01c391d7$ccecc110$aee5fc40@userusnz5uny3x> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:17 PM 10/13/2003, you wrote: >I left a small but healthy nuc out back. I live in the city and know of no >other hives nearby. >I was dissapointed to find the hive full of dead adult bees. We have had an unusually long dearth for nearly the past month. Lack of rain then a cold snap when it did rain delayed the fall flowers. I couldn't even open up a hive for 3 weeks or intense robbing occurred almost immediately. When It finally broke I found several nucs robbed out (with almost no bees left). Typical signs of robbing, chewed wax, etc. But I also found a couple with lots of dead bees on the bottom, heads stuck in the cells, no other signs of disease, classical starvation. It feel bad knowing I could have prevented it, but the same nucs were strong with a good amount of honey just a month and a half ago. The full hives seemed to have faired well, though they have more reserves than the nucs do. Many seemed to have nearly shut down brood production which I've never seen done to this extent with Italians this time of year. Interestingly in my observation hive, the queen kept on laying and there were eggs, but there was no brood for about 2-3 weeks. I though she was failing, but they started up again once the cold spell broke. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:10:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have been surfing the net for a couple hours trying to find testing done on tracheal mite infestations treated with Apilife Var or plain thymol crystals and have came up empty handed. I have found in Italy they say Apilife var is effective against tracheal mites but in the U.S. they say Apilife var provides little control of tracheal mites. Has a member of BEE-L used Apilife var on a tracheal mite infestation this fall and checked the results? Peter you use thymol I believe you said. Is thymol effective as a control for tracheal mites? Comments? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 11:17:53 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Super-sisters In-Reply-To: <097801c3918c$fd997f10$7604c518@gollum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello supercollider, hello all! James Fisher said: >>>> >as we are brother and sister, the sequences would be very similar >>>> But as brother and sister, you can also say "could be perhaps completely different"! Because you received only 50% of genes from your mother and 50% from your father. Your sister could have received the 50 other percent of each one of them. What would not be the case of a brother of you who could have received at least a chromosome identical to one of yours. Statistically not very probable, obviously, but theoretically possible :) It's not at all the same thing for two sisters in the hive: Same mother (the queen) and same father (one of her drones). What these workers received from him is completely identical for each one. Whereas what they received from the queencorresponds, as at the human ones, to 50% of her genome. They are thus what one generally names super-sisters! Best regards Jean-Marie Van Dyck :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:55:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee genome In-Reply-To: <097801c3918c$fd997f10$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > The >>isolation<< of specific genes will take time and effort. > Even then, genes are NOT simple switches. You can "turn them on and off", > but the actual results are often highly unexpected. As an example, you > turn off the gene for freckles, and find out that the resulting organism > is much less intelligent, a side-effect well-known to all freckled people. :) > > Here's another problem - humans have about 75,000 different proteins. > Howcome the human genome only contains about 34,000 genes? No one has > an answer yet, but clearly, the "switches" are multi-purpose, > multi-function gizmos, rather than simple "on/off" switches. snip > Sequencing the mouse showed that mice have roughly the same number > of genes as humans, So we have something like: > > Round worm 18,000 genes > Fruit Fly 13,000 > Mouse 34,000 > Human 34,000 > > Not what you'd expect, is it? A Jim notes, he problem is not the mapping of the genes, which is more a matter of time and computer work. The problem is what does the sequence mean and how do they interact with proteins. The genetic makeup of all life on earth is similar, so why do we not look like bees? It is probably in the combination of gene sequencing and their relationship to proteins. It is a complex problem. Most of the research so far on fruit flies is with things that are physical and can be seen, such as eye color, wing shape, number of wings,legs, etc.. Behavior is something different. Since even fruit flies can be taught, behavior may be as much a brain function as genes and proteins. Mapping the bees genes is nice, but it will not be any holy grail. It is on the order of the 747 designer saying that they have identified the parts needed to build the plane and now it is your problem to put it together without any knowledge of how the parts go together or what tooling is needed, and you have no information about the tools. Plus, they have added twice as many parts that have nothing to do with the construction of the plane, and you have to figure out the software necessary to make it all work. It can be done, but it will take much more time than just identifying the parts. And it will cost. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:34:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Dead Colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Another guessing game here in electronic diagnosis, a world away. Overall I find Dave’s observations salient, especially if you run with upper entrance holes or cracks. Sometimes, it is hard to tell when to close upper entrances or cracks [to cut down the draft, and not to vent] at the onset of winter, not knowing all the conditions of each hive that might be conducive to robbing, such as weakened by mites or queen-loss or whatever. Certainly, the presence of wax debris, as others have already noted, invariably under the screened bottom, is a sure sign. I have been feeding three September swarms but having been robbed, they are hopeless so that I am not even thinking about combining them, though still spoon- feeding. Though unproven, I have long suspected two observable phenomena in robbing: 1) a docile colony, regardless its strength, may be subject to robbing by super-mean [like feral] marauders, and 2) in the frenzy of robbing, the bees under attack *seem* to join the robbers, as well, perhaps realizing the hopelessness of the situation, a possible explanation as to why there were not as many dead bees as they should have been in this case. The latter could possibly be a topic for someone’s Master's thesis or even a dissertation topic, judiciously blown-up. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:50:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J" Subject: More on Dead Colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks so much for all the comments to my question. As much as I hate to admit it I think starvation is what took them out. As I said it looked like a colony lost in the winter. Bees head first into empty cells. I know I left a good amount of honey and the colony was very strong five weeks ago, but obviously I miscalculated. I even remember taking an extra super from this hive and giving it to one of the others that was a little light. It was queenright and showed no other signs of trouble. Robbing was a possibility but this colony should have had no problem defending itself. I am still really puzzled by the large amount of dead bees both on the bottom board and especially on the inner cover. Maybe it was a combination of defending and then starvation. There are only four (now three) colonies at this site. These colonies are on a small farm for season long pollination. The farmer told me that in spite of the good bloom and all the bees his pumpkin harvest was low. The flowers that were pollinated gave large pumpkins, just not that many. Way to much rain. My thought is if they could not get out to pollinate they were not flying or bringing in stores. Large colony equals large appetite. I talked to another beekeeper in my area. He said he found colonies that will need serious feeding to get them through winter. I guess I am lucky because all the colonies I check last week were OK. I have to agree that this year robbing would start if you sneezed while eating honey candy. It took me forever to harvest. Never had a season like this. You could only work one or two colonies and had to move on to another yard or you risked kicking off a major frenzy. One exception was one yard I have with 7 colonies. It is the farthest away so I really hate making more than one trip. I asked my daughter to accompany me hoping to speed up the harvest before the fun started. When I arrived one look at the colonies told me there was a nice nectar flow going on. I told my daughter we would not have any problems and I was right. This was the last yard to be harvested. I guess the Fall flow was much later than I anticipated. The aster flow is still going strong. Thanks again for the comments. I really do feel I am talking to my friends whenever I go to this list. Ron Sixteen years, 34 colonies, and still so much to learn! Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 11:57:12 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Dr Seeley comments on bee dance I may be a complete fool to ever post on this topic again, but I think I can supply some citations without getting dragged into another drunken brawl. > Evidently, a dance follower learns only the > general vicinity of the recruitment target... > This... can be especially difficult in an > experimental situation where the recruitment > target is a tiny dish of sugar water, not a > sizable patch of flowers. Yeah, the whole "feeder dish" approach is semi-bogus. It is a single "flower" with an infinite supply of nectar. Not very authentic. The "beauty" of the "inherent sloppiness" of bee dance is that it tends to NOT result in sorties to a single point, but results in sorties to an general area. This is a good thing, since groups of trees are more common than single trees, and fields of blossoms more common than single plants. > Does anyone have a reference for this study using harmonic > radar to track dance followers? I think that Tom is referring to the work of the "Rothamsted Radar Entomology Unit". Here's some of their papers on the subject: Riley, J.R. & Osborne, J.L. (2000) "Course control during foraging movements: observations using harmonic radar." Proceedings of the 20th Royal Society Symposium "Insect Movement: Mechanisms and Consequences". Smith, A.D., Reynolds, D.R. & Riley, J.R. (2000) "The use of Vertical-Looking Radar to continuously monitor the insect fauna flying at altitude over southern England." Bulletin of Entomological Research 90, pp. 265-277. Riley, J.R., Smith, A.D., Reynolds, D.R., Edwards, A.S., Osborne, J.L., Williams, I.H., Carreck, N.L. & Poppy, G.M. (1996) Tracking bees with harmonic radar. Nature 379, 29-30. Capaldi, E.A., Smith, A.D., Osborne, J.L., Fahrbach, S.E., Farris, S.M., Reynolds, D.R., Edwards, A.S., Martin, A., Robinson, G., Poppy, G.M. & Riley, J.R. (2000) "Ontogeny of orientation flight in the honeybee revealed by harmonic radar." Nature 403, 537-540 Osborne, J.L., Williams, I.H., Carreck, N.L., Poppy, G.M., Riley, J.R., Smith, A.D., Reynolds, D.R. & Edwards, A.S. (1997) "Harmonic radar: a new technique for investigating bumble bee and honey bee foraging flight. Acta Horticulturae 437, 159-163. Riley, J.R., Smith, A.D., Reynolds, D.R., Edwards, A.S., Osborne, J.L., Williams, I.H., Carreck, N.L. & Poppy, G.M. (1996) "Tracking bees with harmonic radar." Nature 379, 29-30. Their web site includes the following summary (watch the line wrap in the following URL!): http://www.dysonperrins.worcs.sch.uk/Pupils/Year%2013/Jo's%20Project/Current%20P rojects.htm Harmonic radar "We are using the newly-developed technique of harmonic radar to study honey bee navigation in collaboration with scientists from the Freie Universitat Berlin. Harmonic radar enables us to monitor the position of free flying honey bees over large distances and with far greater accuracy than has previously been possible. We are attempting to resolve the question of whether bees are able to use a 'cognitive map' rather than relying on 'route memories'. Von Frisch published the now famous 'waggle dance' which he claimed bees could use communicate the position of suitable forage areas. This 'dance language' has been somewhat controversial with some scientists being sceptical of its efficacy. We have used harmonic radar to measured the flight trajectories of bees recruited after observing the waggle dance, this has enabled us to settle (hopefully once and for all) this controversy in favour of Von Frisch. We are also examining our flight data to see what effect the wind has on flight behaviour, paying particular attention to the role odour plumes have in the recruitment of bees to new forage sites." Another interesting area of work has to do with how honeybees measure distance flown, which appears to be a form of "dead reckoning", tracking the apparent movement of the landscape below the bee, an approach that has been fooled by sending the bees through a "funhouse" optical maze, and then looking at the (longer) "distance" the bees report in their dancing. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/02/000207071327.htm And if anyone wants to persist in holding the position that "bees are incapable of overt communication other than via pheromones", they should read this: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.04/quorum.html Yep, even BACTERIA can communicate, and in ways that can only be called "sophisticated". As far as cognitive arguments go, where it is asked "how could bees do all the math required to translate a dance into a location?", please shut down your computer, and go outside to play "catch" with your dog. Note that your dog can catch the frizbee or ball in mid-air, even though he has no math skills at all. jim (From bacteria to elephants, we're all just basic elements. And we all turn to compost when we die.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:37:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dr Seeley's comments on Bee Dance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/10/03 05:03:26 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > Incidentally, there has recently been published a > study that has tracked (using harmonic radar) dance followers immediately > upon leaving the hive as they start the search for the recruitment target. > This study confirms the view that dance followers fly out in the direction > specified by the dance. It may also confirm that they fly out to the > distance specified by the dance, and then start searching for the target > itself." > Does anyone have a reference for this study using harmonic radar to track > dance followers? > > Dr Norman Carreck of Rothamstead will be able to tell you how to find this, now it has been published. I believe he may have been involved indirectly as he does a lot of work tracking bees using harmonic radar. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:58:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Bee language Comments: cc: JBarthell@ucok.edu, dgnpune@yahoo.co.in, phwells@earthlink.net, harrington-wells@utulsa.edu, gary.greenberg@wichita.edu, rosinbio@yahoo.com, Julian.ODea@AFFA.GOV.AU, barry@birkey.com, tautz@biozentrum.uni-wuerzburg.de, charles@okstate.edu, dickallen@GCI.NET, gmv47@DIAL.PIPEX.COM, JoTraynor@aol.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Barry Donovan reiterated a message he had given earlier (here in small part): "[It] is consistent with the use by these bees of the information to avoid the already-discovered source." (An interesting rationale, but not very scientific.) Mea McNeil provided input on Tom Seeley's response to her questions, including his mention of Figure 3.7 in his book (which really reveals little about the issue). Seeley's response to Mia (as she posted it) was loaded with qualifications (including, "Evidently, a dance follower learns only the general vicinity of the recruitment target, she flies to this location, and then often has to execute a lengthy search to pinpoint the recruitment target."), a statement that contrasts sharply with his own statement in the book, as follows: "When a worker bee discovers a rich source of pollen or nectar, she is able to recruit nest mates to it and thereby strengthen her colony's exploitation of this desirable feeding site. The principal mechanism of this recruitment communication is the waggle dance, a unique behavior in which a bee, deep inside her colony's hive, performs a miniaturized re-enactment of her recent journey to a patch of flowers. Bees following the dance learn the distance to the patch, the direction it lies in, and the odor of the flowers, and can translate this information into a flight to the specified patch." Which is it? Do bees "fly directly out" as given in the original hypothesis, or do they search about for a long time, as specified in the odor-search model? The renowned science philosopher, Karl Popper, wrote, "Some genuinely testable theories, when found to be false, are still upheld by their admirers--for example, by introducing AD HOC some auxiliary assumption, or by re-interpreting the theory AD HOC in such a way that it escapes refutation." Likewise, Thomas Kuhn (physicist and philosopher) echoed Popper's conclusion, as follows: "...scientists ... will devise numerous articulations and AD HOC modifications of their theory in order to eliminate any apparent conflict." and "[although scientists] may begin to lose faith and then to consider alternatives, they do not renounce the paradigm that has led them into crisis." The bottom line remains as to the facts (long search times and small percentage of success) that I posted on 5 October. By contrast, those results mesh very well with the von Frisch odor-search convictions of the late 1930s and early 1940s, as well as with our odor search model (as spelled out in our 1990 book and more concisely in the following URL): http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/az1991.htm The bottom line remains, though: Beekeepers have not benefited one bit in regard to their beekeeping operations by using the dance language hypothesis during the past half century of its existence. That fact carries more weight than virtually any of the rhetoric we have had on the subject these past few years. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:30:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Dr Seeley's comments on Bee Dance In-Reply-To: <13.2369739a.2cbd8048@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: > Dr Norman Carreck , > he does a lot of work tracking bees using harmonic radar. I wondered what "harmonic radar" was so http://www.globaltechnoscan.com/28feb-5march/insects.html gives a good short synopsis. In essence it is a "chip" attached to the subject which acts like a transponder. Seems a lot like the transponders used by aircraft to id their positions on radar. Nothing new as far as the concept, but a lot smaller. With the current state of such devices (for instance in inventory use and also considered for library books) you could have a lot of data attached to each bee so would not lose them even in a cluster. They can be as small as threads. Interesting stuff. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:38:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig@NETZERO.COM Subject: The plight of bees in France and Napoleon loved the honey bees . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3178400.stm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:16:54 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)" Subject: Plight of France's honey bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Plight of France's honey bee By John Laurenson; Tuesday, 14 October, 2003 >From BBC News, at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3178400.stm In a normal summer, Provence is full of fields of blue lavender and the air= is a-buzz with bees. But this year's heatwave has left the lavender -= along with the thyme, rosemary and pink heather - shrivelled to nothing.= Provence is the hardest hit region of France but this has been a bad year= for almost every one of France's 80,000 beekeepers. Honey production from= their 1.3 million hives is down by more than half this year with hungry= bees forced to eat sugary preparations laid out by the beekeepers in order= to survive. Until recently, the normal death rate for bees during the winter months was= one in 10. Now, says Vincent Clair of the French National Bee Surveillance= Unit, the death rate is six in 10. Opinions are divided about the causes of the rise in bee mortality. "The most likely theory today is that the massive use of pesticides are= weakening the colonies so they are becoming more vulnerable to big= diseases such as varroa destructor and other viruses," says Mr Clair. But others say beekeepers themselves are partly to blame. "But encouraged= by so-called scientists and other modernisers, some beekeepers have been= importing bees from all over the world, crossing them with local bees...= playing the sorcerer's apprentice... in order to increase their honey= production," Mr Douai says. "It's upset the natural balance and now we're= paying the price." ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Conservation Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at www.xerces.org ______________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::