From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:18:43 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST,WHY_PAY_MORE autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D0F48F5B for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZd8011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0310E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 55169 Lines: 1203 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:52:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Extractor thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Offered on ebay: Beekeeping 50 frame radial honey extractor Item number: 2568744779 As has been observed, there are many to be had used. Aaron Morris - thinking previously owned, not "used"! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 05:44:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rodney Angell Subject: shelf Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I would like to know if anybody has drawings for building a small shelf that can hold about 4 one pound jars and 4 half pound jars and can set on a counter at a store. Thanks Rod . :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:37:06 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: homemade honey extractor In-Reply-To: <148.1b6135ef.2ccfc613@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed Not a great lover of Chinese goods myself, however....... Take a line like that against the products of other countries......friendly ones are hit just the same as those you may prefer not to buy from......and you will hit US jobs too. Block the products of other places which people want to buy (if there was no market they would not be available) and you might find yourselves blocked too. I doubt the amount of Chinese extractors is a huge threat to your own makers, and imagine how hard companies like Cowen, Maxant, Dadant etc would be hit in export markets if there was to be a tit for tat product boycott. I'm sure you (US) export a far greater value of bee equipment than you buy in. Support for your own producers sounds fine, and to a limited extent it works, but people must have the freedom to choose. FWIW, I would recommend buying the very best extractor you can find with the funds available to you. A good one will last many years, perhaps even a lifetime, and a cheap tinny one may not last 5 years. Quality in honey machines is an investment rather than a thing you should just see as a one off cost. At the cheap end it is unlikely to be one off and usually, after a long time, turns out not to have been the cheapest way. Aaron's advice about a good second hand one is very sound. You may be able to get a far better extractor than you could afford new by buying it that way. Just find out why it is being sold first! Murray In article <148.1b6135ef.2ccfc613@aol.com>, Lionel Evans writes >The extractor that is made in china brings a thought to mind. How do we >intice people here in the USA to buy honey made only in the USA and we >go to china >to buy our equipment? > >This is food for thought on all merchandise, from socks to all other things >we buy. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:11:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Buckwheat revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In July of 1999 a friend and I went to Brittany (France) to talk to professional meadmakers about their methods of making mead. I made mead from buckwheat honey, and it was very good. Unexpectedly it lacked the strong, almost offensive, character of the honey from which we made it, and had rather a `flowery` taste. FWIW, seems to me that what they call BW in California and some other places is not the same as what they call BW in Manitoba and other places. Moreover, as well as the tame buckwheat which is grown locally, on occasion, as a crop, there is a wild buckwheat -- a weed -- around central Alberta. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:16:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Western Apiculture Meeting, next July, Missoula, MT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To all beekeepers, mark your calendars and plan on attending the annual meeting of the Western Apicultural Society, July 2004 in the Garden City, Missoula, MT. We are aiming for July 11-14th. Its a great time to visit Montana and talk about bees. Our daily maximum temperature is 83 degrees. With a population of about 82,000 a good bus system, bike paths, and more bicycles than almost any other community in the U.S., Missoula is easy to get around. Home to The University of Montana, at the confluence of five mountain valleys, Missoula is the place to be in the summer. We've got one of the first fully hand-carved carousel built in America since the Great Depression. We are only three hours from Glacier Park and about one-half day from Yellowstone Park. We're planning a tour day that will go to the National Bison Range, then to Western Bee's equipment fabrication plant in Polson, and will end with a Barbecue on Flathead Lake, the largest inland lake west of the Mississippi. We're working on a great program, and will be coordinating workshops and conferences with other groups, such as the Native Plants Society, and one or more of the Pollinator conservation groups. Of course, we have to bring in the bear experts, since the U.S. Fish an Wildlife bear recovery program is located here. We might even get a visit from Monte,the back-flipping, motorcycle-riding Grizzly, who's out to defend his title as the Nation's No. 1 mascot. Please join us at The University of Montana for a program of fascinating and varied speakers, panels, workshops, and fun activities. Its a great place to combine a conference and a vacation. Jerry Bromenshenk, President Western Apiculture Society P.S. Check out http://www.montana.com/missoula/ We are working on a WAS Conference page and will let you know when it is launched. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:39:23 +0100 Reply-To: Derek Steed Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Derek Steed Subject: Re: Buckwheat? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Yoon! Buckwheat is well known in Germany ( Buchweizen).Next spring I plan to plant a bee pasture of 0,74 hectare- about 2 acres. The objective is to create a perennial bee pasture but the seed blend will also contain buckwheat ( an annual ) because it represses weeds and the land has been badly neglected.Buckwheat also has a high nectar value - as high as for Californian poppy ( phacelia ).Buckwheat is somewhat frost sensitive and shouldn´t be planted too early. PS what happened to your 30% oxalic acid - sprayed bees, are they still alive? Regards Derek Steed :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:11:44 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Apilife Var Bob asked if thymol is effective against tracheal mites (acarine). When I started beekeeping (1981) I used to worry about acarine (and everything else connected with the health of my bees!) and regularly dissected bees with symptoms, or from colonies that died in the winter. I used Folbex (now no longer available) to try to 'save' infested colonies. I also used Fumidil regularly against nosema. After a few years of this, I realised that I was on a treadmill and decided to allow susceptible colonies to die and to breed from those that survived. The problems rapidly disappeared and I have not bothered to look for either acarine or nosema for many years. I am hoping that by using thymol to keep varroa to sub-lethal levels I will achieve the same happy situation with them in due course! I would expect thymol to be effective against acarine, but without an acarine problem I would be unable to conduct any meaningful tests. I would have thought that the US would have been a better testing ground. Co-incidentally, I re-read Manley's 'Honey Farming' on my recent holiday. Writing in 1944, he wrote: 'There is no doubt whatever that there are strains of bees that will not survive long in this country, but which become infested with acari very quickly. These strains, at least those that have come my way, are all imported from the United States. Acarine disease is unknown in the New World, so far as I know, and this probably accounts for the bees from there being very susceptible to acarine infestation. This does not apply to European bees which are all survivors of acarine attacks at some time or other, I expect, and French and Italian bees are just as liable to carry the mites as are British. I think it probable that were mites to get into the apiaries of North America, there would be a holocaust that would put our past experience into the shade entirely.' Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:34:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Home made honey extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For a beginner with possibly little money or space to spare for a large and expensive bit of kit that is idle for 364 days of the year, a centrifugal extractor is hardly necessary. There are several ways around not having one. Easiest and most space saving is to borrow one from the local beekeeping association. Otherwise use a large food food grade plastic bucket with a sealable lid and a tap at the bottom. The honey combs are simply cut from their frames (leaving maybe a quarter of an inch at the top to act as a guide for rebuilding) chuck them in the bucket and bash them about a bit. Leave the bucket in a warm place for a day or so and run off the honey from the tap through a coarse filter. There will be a few pounds left mixed with the wax. They can be pressed out using a fruit press, or washed out and used for mead or another honey- based drink. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:16:32 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: homemade honey extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Murray McGregor" said > FWIW, I would recommend buying the very best extractor you can find with > the funds available to you. IMHO, which extractor to buy is one of the questions that really does depend on size of operation. Suzanne said if I remember she had about 2 hives - a good number for someone who wants honey from the garden. So say 6 to 8 supers a year. That ought not to take more than say one day per year. Now, factory extractors made in UK are generally robust, with metal gears. Imported Italian stainless steel extractors are under half the price but have nylon gears. I would guess however that my Italian would last at least 6 months in daily use (no evidence though). That is say 120 days - so it would last Susanne - and her children, and grandchildren - 120 seasons. For that style of beekeeping, why pay more (assuming such a spec is on sale within reach), even if u could afford it? U can put people off starting beekeeping if it seems too expensive in comparison to the expected value of the harvest . Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:38:55 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: shelf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Rodney Angell" > I would like to know if anybody has drawings for building a small shelf > that can hold about 4 one pound jars and 4 half pound jars and can set on a counter at a store. No plans, but surely not too difficult to mock up with spare wood and then finish off. But what about something a bit more sexy than a plain shelf? Does anyone have some eye-catching design that holds say both jars and also some bees or pictures or something that really stops people and makes them look? I have been buying up honey pots all year in the market, hoping to re-sell on my stall at Christmas together with a jar of honey, all wrapped up in cellophane as an easy present. Any ideas of what would really make a Christmas Bee Stall hum? - (not escaped bees, please). Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:00:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ken Norman Subject: Climate for Queen bee breeding Hi Bee L I am interested in producing queens next May or June is there an optimum outside temperature for Queen bees to be bred. Thank you Kenny Norman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:15:13 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: GMO Thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Aaron Morris" The GMO thread is a prime example of straying off topic. The reports on the field scale tests of GM maize, OSR (canola) and sugar beet are definately of interest to beekeepers. The trials were the largest ever conducted (so we are told) to check consequences on the environment thru gene escape and on wildlife. Apparently gene flow was not considered serious but in both OSR and sugar beet the numbers of wild flowers were strongly reduced (by the herbicide regime) with consequential effects on bees and other insects, consequently on wild seed production, consequently on bird populations. No decisions have yet been made by UK gov but the media expect a ban on those GM crops on environmental grounds. This is not to imply that UK is happy with GM in every other way - we are deeply suspicious with tampering with food here - partly due to BSE caused by feeding cattle sheep brains on the 'scientific' advice that would make more money for farmers, but which has condemned (as yet unknown) numbers of people to a horrible premature death. The wildlife argument against GM seems a little strange, even to someone like me. If culturing GM plants reduces food for bees/wildlife, on those grounds ought we not to regulate the ratio of field margin to crop needed to maintain a balance, rather than applying an outright ban? Of course, the grounds for outright ban do exist in the paucity of research into risks to human health, considering that in UK 40% of people are overweight and the overproduction of food is such that farmers have to be paid to leave fields empty - so there is no need to rush into GM here to conquer famine or even to lower food prices. Less production, higher quality and higher prices would bring benefits to public health thru trimming consumption - as in other 'advanced' countries. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:08:26 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: homemade honey extractor Murray McGregor expressed a quaint, almost Keynesian view of modern international markets: > ...if there was no market they would not be available... I don't think there was ever any actual "demand" for a cheap plastic 2-frame tangential extractor! :) Demand does NOT always drive supply. Supply (availability) often creates the "demand". In this case, I'd guess that a customer base that is doomed to suffer from universal buyer's remorse will make for a very short period of "demand", followed by complaints, demands for free replacement parts and refunds, and an eventual withdrawal of the product from the retailer's catalog. Yes, there is a demand for extractors, but it was a "cost-rationalization" effort designed to undercut the price of all existing extractors that resulted in the cheapest possible extractor that could be made and still called "an extractor" with a straight face. Competition among makers of legitimate products drives prices down to a "minimum". In order to undercut everyone else, the new market entrant is forced to offer a deliberately shoddy product. No matter what product you consider, there is likely a way to shave some cost off, but at some point, quality and basic utility gets shaved, and the customer is clipped as a result. While it is true that everyone would like to pay less for everything, one need go no further than the nearest Wal-Mart to see the end result of seeking the "lowest price" as one's sole goal. The result is "landfill merchandise" shoddy crap that barely works, breaks with ease, and has a lifespan that can be measured in weeks or months. You get what you pay for. Pool your money, and set up a shared honey house. Better yet, join a local beekeeping association, and never lack for places to extract your honey and friends to help you do it. Even though a handful of other beekeepers use my honey house, it still sits idle for most of the year. The first 5 years I kept bees, I produced nothing but Ross Rounds simply to avoid the need for an extractor and the other toys. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:15:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Climate for Queen bee breeding In-Reply-To: <200310300100.h9TNLtMi001967@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:00 PM 10/29/2003, you wrote: > I am interested in producing queens next May or June is there an >optimum outside temperature for Queen bees to be bred. Grafting and placing ripe queen cells can be done even at relatively cool temperatures assuming you take the proper precautions. (Insulated boxes for transport etc.) The two critical items in my opinion for raising queens that are most temperature/weather depended are good populations of drones (which can be stimulated by early feeding), and proper flight weather for mating, 69 degrees or higher and relatively calm days (which you have no control over). By May or June in most locations in the US, the weather is just fine for raising queens with little difficulty or extra measures. Early queens (at least in more northern areas) are tougher to manage. It depends a great deal on where you are located. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:07:22 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Buckwheat? Derek Steed said: Californian poppy ( phacelia ). The Californian poppy is Eschscholzia californica. Phacelia campanularia is known as the Californian Bluebell, but it is Phacelia tanacetifolia that is usually grown to attract bees and other insects. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:33:41 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: shelf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all > I would like to know if anybody has drawings for building a small > shelf that can hold about 4 one pound jars and 4 half pound jars and > can set on a counter at a store. Just before my Bee supply company went bankrupt, I looked into this and although my display would have held a couple of dozen jars... The principle holds good. I showed pictures of various 'comic' bees to children in a local infant school. The one that got the most oohs & aahs became a template for 'fretwork' plywood ends to the shelves. (produced by a router using a template) Perhaps what we teach young children about bees needs adjusting, because only the bumble bee shapes and styles created any impact on the kids. I cannot say how effective the idea was, as bancruptcy overtook the project before any were actually made. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY (Emergency conditions) New Email: dave@dave-cushman.net Alternative Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman New Domain: http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:29:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: homemade honey extractor In-Reply-To: <01eb01c39e71$8f7d1c20$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <01eb01c39e71$8f7d1c20$7604c518@gollum>, James Fischer writes >Murray McGregor expressed a quaint, almost >Keynesian view of modern international >markets: Suit yourself. I have no wish to get into the relative merits of various modern and historical economic models. I'm just a beekeeper and not a powerful intellect. I only raised the dangers of protectionism by whatever means it arises. Not, in my opinion, a great move for one of the great exporting nations to say that you have to buy ours but we won't buy yours. Happens from many directions too, so not particularly taking a pot shot at the US. I live in the EU which is just as bad. As for quaint? Well if someone tells me I cant sell my product to them I'm damn sure I wont buy theirs either. ( Always tinged with the need for pragmatism.) >I don't think there was ever any actual "demand" >for a cheap plastic 2-frame tangential extractor! :) Firstly, I was really talking about the cheap metal ones, which if you sneeze they dent. (Well almost). You may doubt the existence of a market for the plastic ones, but obviously someone, at least at the outset, disagreed with you. Perhaps they still do, or perhaps they have a warehouse full of the things and they are trying to get them sold before they admit to agreeing with you. > >Demand does NOT always drive supply. >Supply (availability) often creates the "demand". The vendors must have spotted what they saw as a niche in the market not being served elsewhere. Otherwise they would not have done it. This is without any judgement on my part as to the quality of their market research and the validity of the decision they made. They thought they spotted a gap in the market so moved to fill it. Right or wrong? I don't pretend to have the answer. > >In this case, I'd guess that a customer base that >is doomed to suffer from universal buyer's remorse >will make for a very short period of "demand", >followed by complaints, demands for free replacement >parts and refunds, and an eventual withdrawal of the >product from the retailer's catalog. Me too. >Competition among makers of legitimate products >drives prices down to a "minimum". In order to >undercut everyone else, the new market entrant >is forced to offer a deliberately shoddy product. Not necessarily so. They could come in on an innovation or point of difference. I just bought an expensive extractor from NZ, a decision entirely based on a point of difference, from a relatively new maker who had never sent one to Europe before. It is not a type exactly as available in the mainstream market. Niche market for sure, but adequate for this new manufacturer. The quality is impeccable. >While it is true that everyone would like to pay less >for everything, one need go no further than the nearest >Wal-Mart to see the end result of seeking the "lowest >price" as one's sole goal. The result is "landfill merchandise" >shoddy crap that barely works, breaks with ease, and has >a lifespan that can be measured in weeks or months. Which is precisely why, when I turn something, say like an interesting looking electrical product, upside down, and see the 'Made in China' sticker on the base I generally return it to the shelf and dismiss the idea. It has to be something not available elsewhere AND look robust enough before I will take it. >Pool your money, and set up a shared honey house. >Better yet, join a local beekeeping association, >and never lack for places to extract your honey >and friends to help you do it. My main reason for suggesting the best extractor your money could buy (and in this I am also addressing Robin Dartington's post) is that you can often find that what looks adequate today is not so tomorrow. Main reasons are: 1. Lack of robustness can lead to an early need for replacement. 2. It can be almost worthless if you decide you have had enough and want to sell up. Not normally the case with quality. 3. Beekeeping does tend to be a bit like Topsy. It grows and grows. 2 hives today........but how many in 5 years,...... 10 years? Getting something barely adequate today to save 100 bucks is likely to prove a false economy. (Been there, got the tee-shirt and the shed full of crap to vouch for it!) Point 3 is the most important, unless you are utterly sure your hobby/trade is not going to grow. The pooling is indeed a good idea, but it would require a good set of group rules to prevent ill feeling arising through some thinking they do not get a fair crack of the whip. Associations often suffer from having 'inner circles' who favour themselves over others, and may hog the use of a pooled machine before the 'outer circle' get access to it. Make the decision based on the best information at the time. Don't cut any corners you do not need to cut. Keep one eye on the long view of just where this may be leading. Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:37:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Climate for Queen bee breeding In-Reply-To: <200310300100.h9TNLtMi001967@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > is there an >optimum outside temperature for Queen bees to be bred >Kenny Norman When do you start seeing the bees raise queen cells on their own? On the dandelion flow? Make your preparations at that time...when the bees would do it naturally. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:31:21 -0500 Reply-To: DanJan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DanJan Subject: Re: Home made honey extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I solved my hobby quantity extractions by contacting a local beekeeper to have him extract my suppers. I "paid" him with honey, and at that time he wanted $5.00/ super and we used the current local wholesale price. He also kept the cappings. It seemed to be a good trade. Just make sure you contact him early and settle the details. YOU WILL HAVE TO HAVE YOUR SUPPERS READY WHEN HE EXTRACTS. Dan Veilleux In the mountains of North Carolina Zone 6a :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:02:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Climate for Queen bee breeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kenny said; I am interested in producing queens next May or June is there an optimum outside temperature for Queen bees to be bred. Tim gave an excellent answer covering all bases so I almost passed on replying but will add Missouri information as Kenny is in south Missouri. We have little trouble raising queens in May or June but major problems in early April due to cold & rainy weather and lack of mature drones. All our splitting is done by May so we have little need for queens in May & June and demand by other beekeepers is low . On the positive side we have raised and mated queens as early as the first week of April in rare years but when weather conditions are bad for getting queens mated (rainy & cold) the queens you get many times are not worth installing in hives (voice of experience). A couple of my friends which got queens from the southeast last spring were disappointed in the queens. The queen breeders said the problem was the cold and rainy weather during mating which makes sense to me. Although another batch of queens were shipped by the queen breeder the timing was off for the beekeeper and a poor honey crop (and low hive numbers) was the result. Although the general rule is; "new queens make money instead of cost money" the killing of one or two year old queens with good patterns and the replacing with inferior queens can (and many times has) cost money in lost honey production. Bob's advice: Stick to your plan and attempt queen rearing in late May to early June and forget April until you get queen rearing experience. Start with twice as many cells as you think will need. Be selective with the final product. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:24:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: When I started beekeeping (1981) I used to worry about acarine (and everything else connected with the health of my bees!) and regularly dissected bees with symptoms, or from colonies that died in the winter. I consider testing/treating one of the keys to my beekeeping success and lack of testing /treating the main reason for many beekeepers problems. Granted the tracheal mite & nosema are not a big problem in many areas but both can cause big problems in certain years. Those which raise their own queens as Peter does understand their bees better than those which buy queens from all over like myself. I have got two lines of bees which I know very little about as far as their ability to handle tracheal mites. The Italian line is going into our Midwest winter untested for TM and untreated. I plan on testing but too late now to treat. Maybe I will be able to do a better job next season. Unlike Peter I will worry all winter about those bees! Thanks for the reply Peter! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:19:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Moderator Subject: Re: GMO Thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The reports on the field scale tests of GM maize, OSR (canola) and sugar > beet are definately of interest to beekeepers. This is true, and we have been careful to cover many aspects of this topic on this list, including even possible tie-ins with antibiotic resistance and other highly speculative questions. The BEE-L logs contain many posts about GMOs. Most pertain to bees, and we are hoping that any new posts will also add new information that also relates principally to GMO impacts on bees and/or the plants closely associated with bees.. FWIW, the ratio of Bee to Blah is a prime criterion in deciding the fitness of any post for BEE-L: Each paragraph that does not have much of anything to do with bees or beekeeping for a post under consideration progressively lowers the score, and reduces the likelihood of the post passing the test, if there is any doubt. GMO canola is of great interest to beekeepers, and any reasonable discussion of GMO canola (& such) is much appreciated, as long as it passes the above B/Blah test. Keep them coming, but keep them on topic. (Bees) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:06:04 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig@NETZERO.COM Subject: Phacelia. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I know phacelia tanacetifolia seed is readily obtainable in Europe. Can anyone provide sources for the seed in the US (or Canada)? If anyone would be willing to share some, I'd be glad to forward a SASE (self-addressed, stamped envelope). It will be greatly appreciated! Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:58:54 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Apilife Var Peter said: > After a few years of this, I realised that I was on a treadmill > and decided to allow susceptible colonies to die and to breed from > those that survived. The problems rapidly disappeared and I have > not bothered to look for either acarine or nosema for many years. I don't understand the logic. a) Nosema is a disease that can reduce yield per hive without showing any overt symptoms. b) Ditto for tracheal mites. c) While serious cases of either are easy to notice, my understanding has been that it is the "mild" cases that are the real problem. d) One cannot control that which they do not measure, and you certainly cannot find that which you don't even try to find. So how do you KNOW your bees don't have nosema? Ditto for tracheal mites. At the TN State beekeeper meeting last weekend, Dr. Tom Webster of U. Kentucky gave a VERY insightful presentation about nosema, making the drive from Virginia worthwhile. In short, he looked at the usual "check the midgut" test for nosema, and found it to be misleading when compared to microscope examination for the actual nosema protozoa. He strongly suggests that a microscope be used to check for nosema, as he found that sampled bees that "looked ok" to the naked eye had serious counts of the nosema protozoa, while some bees with classic discolored and inflated midguts had far LESS actual protozoa - almost none in some cases. I had never heard anyone suggest this before, and feel that he has made an important observation. The bad news is that protozoa are just plain hard to see. He mentioned "phase contrast", a microscope feature that is well beyond the budget of a beekeeper. >>I<< don't even have phase contrast condensers or objective lenses, and I like high-tech toys. As it will be warm (in the 70s!) tomorrow, I will be sampling a few bees from a few hives for examination for protozoa, and I will try various tricks with everything from my son's 100% plastic $20 "chemistry set" microscope up to the really nice one I liberated from AT&T Bell Labs at their annual "yard sale". If I can come up with an approach that works with inexpensive microscopes, I'll report on it. Maybe I don't have a nosema problem, but I'm sure as heck gonna look before it gets too cold to feed some Fumadil. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:01:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Queen bee breeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/10/03 05:02:52 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > The two critical items in my opinion for raising queens that are most > temperature/weather depended are good populations of drones (which can be > stimulated by early feeding), and proper flight weather for mating, 69 > degrees or higher and relatively calm days (which you have no control over). In the UK we usually reckon on 64 degrees being the minimum necessary temperature. Some springs may go for weeks without attaining it and yet it is reported (by Ron Brown I think) that a brief period above that temperature is sufficient to get queens mated. Possibly mongrels with more Amm can get away with lower temperatures. Have there been any studies done on racial differences in mating temperatures? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:03:44 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: homemade honey extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim wrote: Competition among makers of legitimate products drives prices down to a "minimum". In order to undercut everyone else, the new market entrant is forced to offer a deliberately shoddy product. We have to be careful when applying all this text book economics to a = market as small as beekeeping. In UK, with a poplulation of only 55 = million and , supposedly, 23,000 beekeepers, beekeeping supplies are = dominated by one firm. Four or so much smaller companies survive but = put out far less flags. =20 =20 New market entrants can succeed with standard products by various = strategies: 1. Importing say extractors in bulk from a country (say Italy) that = manufactures at a larger scale - so making available a product not = otherwise seen. Quality =3D quite adequate, value for money =3D = excellent. 2. Importing smaller amounts from a country (say in Eastern Europe) = where wages and so manufacturing costs are lower. =20 3. If a new design has been produced, of course that can gain a market = niche thru greater efficency/ greater convenience or flexibility in use. = My Deep Long Hive is marketted by Stamfordham Ltd using Strategies 2 & = 3. Quite the reverse of 'deliberately shoddy' I can assure u. =20 So, luckily in beekeeping at least, competion can continue to thrive - = however much multi-nationals seek to control the whole world.=20 Robin Dartington=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:52:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brent Farler Subject: Re: homemade honey extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I drove 2 hours over to Dadant's warehouse in Paris Texas. Went to save the freight on supers and two years worth of jars. While I was there we cracked open their extractors starting with the low end. Holding the equipment in my own hands and checking the weight of the mechanics, container and motors I dropped my plan for a low end extractor and went with a mid-range variable speed powered radial 6 frame. Cost seemed pretty commiserate with value. Enough to get me through a number of years of sideline beekeeping and very good resale prospects (as opposed to plastic) if I choose to move to a high capacity unit. I'm happy, it's a quality stainless unit and seems to be built for durability. The powered option was about $150 extra or can be added later (but at a slightly higher cost). At even $10 an hour for my time the power option will pay for itself in 2 years. If I was trying to bootstrap this instead of investing my day job earnings into it, I'd borrow, rent or buy a used piece first and earn the money to buy a powered unit when I had to. Keeping your capital low is always a good idea, otherwise you end up working for someone besides your self. Btw.. On the GM topic -> I don't resent people who use a GM approach. I've owned both and personally have had better luck with the Fords. This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:43:07 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Piping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A while back there was discussion on queen piping and I contributed by = relating my experience on a worker piping. Just to relate an incident I saw this week when I was catching a queen = bee from a nuc. The piping sound was coming from the frame in my hand. = I saw the queen but she was not the one making the noise. I caught and = caged her but the piping still continued. I turned the frame over and = saw a worker doing the "push ups" and making the piping sound. This is the second time that I have seen workers piping. The piping = sound sounds to me similar to what I hear when we have queen bees and = escorts in cages held in the house. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 00:28:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Queen bee breeding In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:01 PM 10/30/2003, you wrote: >In the UK we usually reckon on 64 degrees being the minimum necessary >temperature. Have there been any studies done on racial differences in >mating temperatures? I'm not aware of any studies on mating temperatures. Most of the literature I see quote 68-69F or 20C. But I suspect you are right that it may vary a bit by race. The 68-69 rule of thumb has worked well for judging when my Italians have had a good chance to mate. It may well be a bit lower with the NWC I raise now, but I haven't really put it to the test. The workers are generally more active at low temperatures than their Italian neighbors, so I don't see any reason why the same would not hold true for queens. What breed(s) are common in the UK? Here (Ohio) Italians tend to be the most common, though according to some studies (done in Europe i think) Carnolians or NWC are better suited for our winters. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:31:27 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: homemade honey extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Owen Watson" "Christine:Who stocks the Lega at these prices? Ta! Robin replies: (Christine is the computer, or rather the computer owner) = I only know stockists in UK, you would need to contact Lega to find = importers in other countries.=20 In UK, Thorne's e-mail: sales@thorne.co.uk were first I think, = bringing in a full container load and selling 9-frame manual radials at = =A3200 (=A3=3DGBP) (including UK sales tax) as bait at the national = shows. Lega machines come complete with legs and 3 tangential screens - = Thorne's own cost =A3565 as legs/screens are extras. Thorne's now sell = the Lega on sales days at =A3330 I believe.=20 Also in UK, Stamfordham Ltd e-mail: stamfordham@heugh.demon.co.uk stock = the Lega manual 4-frame tangential as a regular item in their catalogue = at =A3155 - large enough to take 14"x12" frames, so any large frame. =20 Lega machines are designed for Italian frames, but I do not know sizes. = The Italian catalogue says only that the 4690 Smelatore Radiale takes 9 = favi da melario or, in versione tangenziale, 3 favi da nido. It works = with UK frames 14 inches wide if u losen and raise the cage to increase = bottom clearence for the UK long lugs. Langstroth users (I have not tried) may do better with machines made by = Saf Natura e-mail: safnature@libero.it, stocked in UK by Bee = Equipped, tel: 01 335 370 567. Saf's brochure states the R9 takes 9 = Langstroth - which depth is not clear. No apparent mention of tangential = screens, but the drum for the 9-frame radial is 620mm dia so almost = certain to be sufficient - but needs checking. =20 Would be interesting to hear if Italian extractors are reaching other = countries at competitive rates. =20 Robin Dartington=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::