From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:18:46 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-80.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST,WHY_WAIT autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A537C48F5F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdA011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0311A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 230758 Lines: 5139 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:57:10 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Apilife Var Jim said: > I don't understand the logic. > > a) Nosema is a disease that can reduce yield per hive > without showing any overt symptoms. Is reduction of yield not a symptom? > c) While serious cases of either are easy to notice, > my understanding has been that it is the "mild" > cases that are the real problem. Now I don't understand the logic! If there are only mild cases, surely this would suggest that colonies are coping naturally - and is that not what we want and should be working towards? > d) One cannot control that which they do not measure, > and you certainly cannot find that which you don't > even try to find. I worry about the word control, but leaving that aside I do measure - not the disease, but the crop. My 23 year average, based on autumn count, is 70lbs per hive and this has risen over the years - in the early days it was in the high fifties and this year was 89lbs. If it went the other way then I would start looking for problems, but I am certainly not going to spend hours routinely dissecting bees and looking at microscope slides trying to find evidence of problems which I have no reason to suspect exist. ( Incidentally, I saw report in one of the US beekeeping magazines recently that gave the average US crop as 67lbs per colony. Not sure if that was on autumn or spring count. Is it really that low?). > In short, he looked at the usual "check the midgut" test > for nosema, and found it to be misleading when compared > to microscope examination for the actual nosema protozoa. I have never used a midgut test (except on suspected EFB), always used the microscope. > The bad news is that protozoa are just plain hard to see. > He mentioned "phase contrast", a microscope feature that is > well beyond the budget of a beekeeper. That is certainly news to me, I use a fairly basic, elderly microscope and can see nosema and amoeba easily. > Maybe I don't have a nosema problem, but I'm sure as heck > gonna look before it gets too cold to feed some Fumadil. Keeping the treadmill turning? Incidentally, Fumadil is no longer available in the UK. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 11:14:50 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Apilife Var I said: >> The bad news is that protozoa are just plain hard to see. >> He mentioned "phase contrast", a microscope feature that is >> well beyond the budget of a beekeeper. And Peter said: > That is certainly news to me, I use a fairly basic, elderly > microscope and can see nosema and amoeba easily. That's interesting. Do you use a stain? How do you prepare your samples? What sort of light source are you using? Any other hints, tips, or clues you can offer? Perhaps decades of looking at computer screens for long hours every day have fried my eyes, but I must admit to having difficulty locating Nosema protozoa, a "transparent" object in a very crowded field of other "transparent" objects, and I am more experienced than many in using a microscope, which may itself have contributed to my growing need for glasses, contacts, or laser surgery. >> Maybe I don't have a nosema problem, but I'm sure as heck >> gonna look before it gets too cold to feed some Fumadil. > Keeping the treadmill turning? That question is not merely misleading, but preposterous, and you know it. :) The concept of the "treadmill" does not apply to Fumadil and Nosema. It is not like the protozoa are going to develop "resistance", now is it? :) In regard to the general dismissal of any/all treatment (even treatment based upon rigorous IPM methods) of any/all problems as "the treadmill", I feel obligated to point out the obvious - we have exactly two problems (varroa and AFB) that have developed "resistance" of any sort. I know of no reports of "resistance" in ANY OTHER pest or disease. I hear of many beekeepers who think that they have (all by themselves) "bred from the survivors", and ended up with bees resistant to varroa. Surprisingly, the more sophisticated and intensive efforts of both commercial bee breeders and researchers in this area have not resulted in similar claims. Even more surprising, many of the beekeepers who claim to have developed bees resistant to varroa never seem to admit to loosing hives to any OTHER problems. They claim "no losses", not even losing an occasional hive to a failed queen. This is hard to believe. It follows that either: a) Individual beekeepers are sitting on a gold mine, and should contact both researchers and bee breeders ASAP so that they can start to live in the manner to which they would like to become accustomed, and do a great service to the entire worldwide beekeeping community. b) Individual beekeepers are fooling themselves, and do not have any actual resistance in their bees. Until such time as I see some verified results that prompt researchers and/or breeders to make the claims that they would certainly love to make, I will continue to both test and treat problems and keep my bees alive. Even when such "resistant" bees are offered, I would tend to continue to test for quite some time before I was willing to bet my colonies to save a few pennies. I view some of the more vocal proponents of "breeding from the survivors" as refugees from the monastery of the monks in the movie "Monty Python and the Holy Grail". They chant, they hit themselves in the head with a board, and chant some more. "Pie Iesu domine, Dona eis requiem" (WHAP!) (The curse of a classical education is that you are stared at you when are the only one laughing at some points in some films.) The Latin translates to "Merciful lord Jesus, Grant them rest" which I feel is a highly appropriate prayer for bees that are abandoned by their owner and left to cope as best they can with the whims of disease and attacks of pests. I'm a beeKEEPER. I'm gonna do what I can to KEEP the bees. That's not a treadmill. A "treadmill" is when I use even more nasty chemicals because less nasty ones have stopped working. As I have stated before, I will throw a large party where guests will roast frankfurters and marshmallows over the bonfires of my burning woodenware before I will use any form of organophosphate. As luck would have it, it appears that I can start to alternate between Apistan and Api-Life for varroa treatments, and use the "sucrose octante" for colonies that start to go all pear-shaped during the flows. In the good news area, work discussed on this mailing list has "proven" that multiple lines of commercially-available bees are tracheal mite resistant, but no one seems to have bothered to promote this advantage, and researchers are apparently unwilling to name names in public. My only conclusion here is that no one in the "bee business" can be accused of doing any actual "marketing". > Incidentally, Fumadil is no longer available in the UK. I did not know that. Neither apparently do some bee supply houses. Thorne http://www.thorne.co.uk and Bees Online http://www.bees-online.co.uk both still list the product in their online catalogs. What's up with that? ...So what would you use in the UK to treat a case of Nosema if you were so inclined? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 16:03:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Queen bee breeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/11/03 05:02:59 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > What breed(s) are common in the UK? > > The native is Amm, but over the years there have been many imports of > Italians especially, and of course the Buckfast was developed here. Therefore we > now have mainly mongrels with strong Amm influence with pockets of fairly pure > Amm especially in the north where conditions are harsher. > > Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 16:09:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Infra red photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have experience of IR photography? I should be interested to take or to see IR photographs of bees doing the waggle dance. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:12:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: al picketts Subject: Re: Phacelia. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar, I got Phacelia seed from Interlake Seed Co. in Fischer Branch, Manitoba. It was a few years ago so don't know if they still carry it. You can get their phone # thru Man. directory assistance or try them on-line. You could also try www.espseeds.com or www.info@applewoodseed.com . I was not aware that there are at least 2 species (or varieties) of Phacelia until today. Phacelia tenacetifolia is better for bee forage and soil improvement growing quite tall (3 feet) while Phacelia campanularia is short (1 foot). This explains why the seed I got from Germany grew very lush, tall, bee-attractive and lots of honey while the seed I got from Man. was short, sparce, not very bee-attractive and not much honey. The bloom time for the German Phacelia was a loooong time (~8 wks) but the other was about 10 days. Needless to say I would try to find the lush variety if I were to grow it again. Al Picketts BooBoos Honey, Kensington, PEI, Ca. -awash in Imidacloprid and dead bees- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 07:32:46 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Negative stain. abdomens crushed in water and a smear made from watery result obtained by tilting the result so that the solids remain to one side and liquid seeps to the other of the mortar.. Spores easily seen as 'rice grains' at X400 Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Fischer" > That's interesting. > Do you use a stain? > How do you prepare your samples? > What sort of light source are you using? > Any other hints, tips, or clues you can offer? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 20:57:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Really raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, If you have not yet had a discussion with a health food person over "really raw honey" now on store shelves you most likely will in the future. I have had several! I always get a kick out of a health food store owner which believes he/she knows more about honey than a lifetime beekeeper. I may not know about many of the products in his/her store but honey I know about. Maybe a BEE-L person will come forward and explain why they think raw honey has to be chock full of propolis . The really raw honey people say so. Why really raw honey is not clear. The really raw honey people say so. I say hogwash and after my little demo so do my health food store people. When you get tired of talking use my demo! I take a 16 oz. comb honey (really raw honey) and cut the cappings off with a sharp knife and let the honey drain in a bowl in a warm room overnight. We then pour the honey in a jar the next day. Presto. CLEAR award wining REALLY RAW HONEY. I have won many awards in honey competition using the above method! I guess a side order of cappings and if you do not mind *green teeth* a side of propolis could be added for a complete health food treat! I have been shown two different brands of "really raw honey" and both looks as if comb and all were put in a blender and a few chunks of propolis were added for good measure. Have I guessed the secret formula for making "really raw honey"? What is the junk on the top of the "really raw honey" honey? foam coming to the top from the agitation process? Is "really raw honey" a wonderful new product or an inferior product? Bob thinking out loud: Maybe I could buy a new concret mixer and put my perfect comb honey in and toss in a pound of proplis and mix . Then bottle right out of the mixer. Hmmm. Might be worth the extra trouble if I could triple my selling price! Never again have to exchange a crystalized bottle on a store shelf! Hmmm. comments? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:56:21 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cyberbeek Subject: Re: Infra red photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris & all > Does anyone have experience of IR photography? I should be interested to > take or to see IR photographs of bees doing the waggle dance. I spent many years as a 'freelance' photographer (in order to afford the expensive toys), one of my special interests was monochrome and false colour IR photography. I think you would be better off trying 'thermal imaging'... IR photography only deals with the chunk of the spectrum just past 'red', but it deals with it in an 'optical' manner. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY (Emergency conditions) New Email: dave@dave-cushman.net Alternative Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman New Domain: http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 06:43:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Really raw honey Bob, I've mentioned that I do tree trimming, and one of the big arborist firms subs out their bee trees to me. I keep that honey apart for the super health food types. I mash everthing up with bee gloves on so I don't get stung, then warm it slightly and put through mesh to take out the bigger particles. Then I cream it because there's so much non-honey floating around in the resulting product. There's lots of pollen and I assume propolis, (and sawdust, etc..) but the big selling point is the smell. All I have to do is to open a jar and let the person smell it, and I usually sell out quickly. I'm not sure what the reason is, but it's smell is delightful. So rather than argue with the hard core types, I just shrug and say I keep this stuff for the purists, point to it and say I ask a little more money for it because it's supply is so limited and the creaming process is time comsuming, and their happy and I'm happy. And I would expect this is done more honestly than the product you mentioned, but it will be interesting to see whether it's some sort of gimmick or not. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:53:01 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Gurr Subject: Re: Phacelia. Phacelia tanacetifolia seed is available from Chiltern Seeds in the UK., always assuming that you are allowed to import it. www.chilternseeds.co.uk Phil. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 04:29:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> The bad news is that protozoa are just plain hard to see. >>> He mentioned "phase contrast", a microscope feature that is >>> well beyond the budget of a beekeeper. >> That is certainly news to me, I use a fairly basic, elderly >> microscope and can see nosema and amoeba easily. I think that perhaps the difference in expectations here is that most of us just look for spores, not the active amoebae. The spores are readily visible without special preparation or staining, although to get quantatative estimates, a haemocytometer is used by some of us. Spores in any significant quantity on a slide are accepted as a sign of the presence of the disease, since apparently they form readily when the disease is active. This discussion makes me think it would be interesting to know the actual corelation between the number of spores and the amount of active disease. > In the good news area, work discussed on this mailing list has > "proven" that multiple lines of commercially-available bees are > tracheal mite resistant, but no one seems to have bothered to > promote this advantage... The study did not reveal the US suppliers with the superior stock at the time of the study due to the agreement under which samples were supplied. Due to the cost, the slowness, and the bother involved in sending frames for the 'quick' test, many producers are not faithful in testing. Since the trait can disappear in a few generations, and since good breeders should be using more than a few mothers, maintaining the trait requires organisation and dedication. I suppose that asking the breeder will bring some kind of an indication of his/her commitment and recent tests, but be prepared for a response that is less than enthusiastic. While you are asking questions, mention HYG and see what answer you get as well. Although I doubt that Backwoods, the only US tester of which I am aware, would likely be sworn to secrecy, they might be happy to mention a few successful customers. I don't know. My undersatnding is that, however, breeding queens from the Ontario bee project breeders -- http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/crops/facts/info_honeybeequeen.htm -- are tested regularly and have a high tracheal tolerance as well as superior hygienuic qualities. Apparently the Buckfast queens raised in Ontario also have very good tolerance, as do pure specimens of the Primorsky stock now being released in the USA. Any of these queens can be readily obtained -- AFAIK -- by US beekeepers, and, in spite of higher than average prices and lack of early spring availability, Ontario queens are popular with beekeepers in neighbouring US states. I just came from a meeting in BC and heard Alison Skinner, the tech transfer person for the Ontario project speak on their project, which has been underway for some time. Any groups that are interested in pursuing such goals might approach her or Doug McRory (see above ref). allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 05:25:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Really raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So rather than argue with the hard core types, I just shrug and say I > keep this stuff for the purists, point to it and say I ask a little > more money for it The thing to remember is that most jurisdictions in developed countries justifyably have increasingly strict standards for facilities where foods are prepared, materials that come into contact with food, permissible ingredients, and reuired labelling for foods sold to the public I suppose what is sold privately to informed, consenting adults is less subject to such standards, but nonetheless, in today's world. it can be risky to sell a product that is in any way questionable. I think the products being discussed here are questionable in the minds of most scrupulous beekeepers, and that those supplying them are skating a bit close to the edge. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 07:33:09 -0500 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: Really raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, What I left out in the other reply is this: In sales the old axiom, "the customer is always right" really applies here. So give'em what they want, and continue to the bank..You cannot educate a fool... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 06:10:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just read in "American Bee Journal" about Sucrose Octanoate. I had > heard of the control substance before but had not heard that it had > passed the EPA clearances for use in mite control. Anyone know of a > source for use in our beekeeping industry. I need to get enough for > about twenty hives ASAP. Last week, in B.C., I heard a talk on this topic by Jamie Strange, from WSU. He has been doing work on sucrose octanoate ester and presented his results to the group at the BCHPA. He mentioned a supplier which can provide a properly labeled product for bees -- AVA Chemical Ventures. I have no address. >From what I gather, SOE application requires spraying the surfaces of all combs which are covered with bees at a time when little or no brood is present. That means taking out the frames, standing them on end, and using a garden sprayer, which must be calibrated to apply the correct dose. The material, which apparently breaks down to sugar and fatty acids, is mixed in at 0.25% in water. The exact amount applied is not critical although, reportedly, a mixture accidentally made at 2.5% resulted in bee kill. The effectiveness, as I recall from my notes, seems to be around 65%. Maybe I misunderstood, but the process seems awkward, very invasive, and marginally effective. I wonder if using SOE is any more efficacious than using powdered sugar? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:23:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Really raw honey In-Reply-To: <000b01c3a0ed$14dc96c0$27a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 1 Nov 2003 at 20:57, Bob Harrison wrote: > I have been shown two different brands of "really raw honey" and both > looks > as if comb and all were put in a blender and a few chunks of propolis > were > added for good measure. > > Have I guessed the secret formula for making "really raw honey"? I don't know any suppliers who actually add propolis, but the cappings are mixed back with the honey so, that some get packed in each jar. It's primarily goldenrod, so it crystallizes rapidly. Some bee parts add to the mystique. Some of the literature suggests that the honey is from bee trees, not cultured bees, which of course gives a good laugh for any knowledgeable beekeeper. And of course the claim that the honey is untreated.... I did know one beekeeper that was supplying this company that actually did take it seriously, and left his bees untreated for varroa, for one winter. He lost about half, and the rest were so weak in the spring, he had a time getting them going again in time to make any honey the following year. I call it marketing mystique. "Organic" is simply the best standard beekeeping practices. Truth is peripheral, of course. The beekeepers themselves don't seem to get any higher price. The good thing is that it saves the bother of dealing with cappings. Dave Green SC USA Garden Bees: http://gardenbees.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:09:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Really raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" It seems to me that a lot of people are making a lot of comments about a product they really don't know a whole lot about. I do not doubt that Bob knows his honey, and I am sure that his demo to health food store owners produced a product that is different than what is marketed under the Really Raw label. But that's where the buck stops. I have to wonder (and highly doubt) that Bob has had personal discussions with Mimi or Elee (owners/proprietors of Really Raw Honey). The product they market is basically honey as it comes out of the extractor, period. Never heated, never filtered, never strained. Put a bucket under the extractor and fill it up. Really Raw makes a point of advertising the product they sell as precisely what it is. Cold (never heated), unstrained, extracted honey that is as close to what the bees produce that a consumer can buy. Bob can squeeze as many combs as he cares to, and drain as much honey as he wants to make his demos for health food store owners. And when he is done bashing Really Raw, I defy him to meet the demand for the honey he has just produced in his little demo. Honey as it comes out of the extractor, never heated, never filtered, never strained is the product the people at Really Raw provide. Consistently and in volume. They have carved out a premium niche in the honey market, and more power to them for having done so! If Bob's claims that honey with cappings, pollen and propolis mixed in is being marketed as Really Raw are true, then the suppliers to Really Raw are in violation of their contract. A contract that very clearly defines what it is that Really Raw is buying from producers, and a contract the requires producers to carry 6 figure liability insurance (which is something any supplier should do anyway, but that's beside the point). I highly doubt Bob has ever read a contract with Really Raw Honey. I suspect he is picking over a marketing concept in the same manner as he picks apart organic honey. In both cases, a product has been defined, producers strive to meet the definition of those products if they are able to do so, and consumers have a choice of the product they buy, taking into consideration the definition of the product and the magnitude of the price tag when they make the purchase. IS the product being marketed better that the product most beekeepers product? Some will argue yes, some will argue no, as we see time and time again on BEE-L, people LIKE to argue. By definition, the product is DIFFERENT! Consumers can and will decide how they spend their money. The folks at Really Raw are market savvy and decent people, who incidently, pay their producers a premium for their product. Any beef with the sales pitch is crying foul over fair game. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:29:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Really Raw Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From some of the recent contributions I get the idea that not all list members know that Really Raw Honey is a trademarked brand of honey. Go to www.reallyrawhoney.com to see some real marketing at work. My understanding is that some members of an Amish community in the western part of New York State asked a local beekeeper to provide honey straight from the extractor, no straining, heating, filtering, etc. Like many of today's Europeans they preferred crystallized honey, and were suspicious of liquid honey as being over-processed. "Mimi" the founder of Really Raw Honey discovered this product and suspected she could sell it to a wide audience. In the western part of NYS, 'straight from the extractor' honey crystallizes very quickly as this is an area where the bees barely survive spring and summer, and then gorge on abundant and 'always' productive goldenrod and aster. Goldenrod and aster honey will crystallize in a heartbeat, if not heated to remove the natural crystals. Honey extracted in September/October will be crystallized hard as a rock by the end of November. As I recall the history, Really Raw Honey started in the early 80's and drifted along for a few years. Getting honey was not a problem. Then an article in Sports Illustrated quoted someone as attributing their stamina to Really Raw Honey, and the rest was history! Suddenly not enough honey was available and Mimi was widely advertising for goldenrod/aster honey, and paying top dollar for it. Of course, beekeepers were happy to provide a honey with little processing, especially as goldenrod/aster honey is so strong tasting that it otherwise had to be blended in order to hope to sell it. I visited their website just now for the first time in a couple of years and see that their marketing has considerably expanded to include more than just the honey. For example, they now offer Ross Rounds that look like what many of us consider as seconds as many cells are unfilled and many are filled with pollen. An indication of what I think is their lack of honey/beekeeping knowledge is that they claim the uncapped cells contain propolis. I have raised many thousand Ross Rounds sections and have yet to see propolis stored in cells...but pollen is reasonably common and my guess is that is what they are dealing with. In a miniature way, they are doing what Ray Kroc did many years ago. He found a ordinary hamburger stand with the ability to turn out good cheap product, and turned it into pure gold. Really Raw Honey is taking what many beekeepers considered 'junk' and is also turning it into gold. I also sell 'raw honey' because one customer wants about 1,000 lbs a year and a few others jump on the bandwagon for a few hundred more pounds. Mine is not heated (beyond the hot room), but is coarsely strained so that most of the bee legs and wax are removed. The customer who buys 1,000 lbs a year does not even put it on display for sale until it has crystallized! She is of recent European decent and 'trains' her customers to buy it, at the expense of other beekeepers who have honey at her store but can't be bothered to produce it. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 13:37:58 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Apilife Var Allen said: > I think that perhaps the difference in expectations here is that most > of us just look for spores, not the active amoebae. Fair enough, but looking for the protozoa itself allows one to detect early cases, and "mild" cases. Clearly one can find protozoa where one might not find spores. > to get quantatative estimates, a haemocytometer is used by some of us. Wow, beekeepers are trying to COUNT the darned things? I'm impressed. I would have never thought to try. > This discussion makes me think it would be interesting to know the > actual corelation between the number of spores and the amount of > active disease. I don't have any hard numbers, as I have better things to do than to count microscopic spores and creatures, but it should be fairly easy to conclude that there would be more creatures than spores in any one sample. I'll leave it to someone else to do the counting, as I have a "life". > queens from the Ontario bee project breeders... > ... have a high tracheal tolerance as well as superior > hygienuic qualities... Any of these queens can be > readily obtained... by US beekeepers If larger beekeepers in Alberta have such problems getting queens of sufficient quality in sufficient quantity that some are reduced to smuggling queens from the US, why would there be enough queens in Ontario to offer some to US beekeepers? Ontario may be far from Alberta, but it is certainly closer than New Zealand and Australia. Is it a timing thing, or is it a Provincial thing? No comment on the irony inherent in US beekeepers buying queens from some of the folks sure to be among the most vocal opposition to any attempt to get Canada to comply with existing international treaties in regard to trade in things like queens. :) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 13:49:59 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate Allen said: > I wonder if using SOE is any more efficacious than using powdered sugar? Perhaps not, but a liquid is clearly easier to use than a powder. > He mentioned a supplier which can provide a properly labeled product > for bees -- AVA Chemical Ventures. I have no address. My database says: Anthony Barrington 603-431-4242 AVA Chemical Ventures 80 Rochester Ave Portsmouth, NH 03801 avachem@qsinet.net Sucrose Octanoate Esters EPA registration (#70950) U.S. patent # 6,419,941, "Polyol Ester Insecticides and Method of Synthesis," issued July 16, 2002 Manufacturing will be done by Applied Power Concepts, Inc. Anaheim, CA Dadant will retail it. Beekeeping applications are such a minor aspect of this product's potential that Tony should be complemented for his willingness to spend time and money on a market that may never pay back his up-front investment. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 13:58:03 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Really raw honey Aaron said: > The folks at Really Raw are market savvy and decent people, > who incidently, pay their producers a premium for their product. > Any beef with the sales pitch is crying foul over fair game. And they are not even the most extreme example of counter-intutive marketing of honey. Anyone remember the short-lived "Killer Bee Honey"? And, of course, the hands-down winner in the category, sweeping the competition in straight sets is... http://www.bumblebarf.com/bbarflbl.html jim (Who notes that even well-heeled passengers must remove their shoes at airport security) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 15:53:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/11/03 05:02:10 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > ...So what would you use in the UK to treat a case of Nosema > if you were so inclined? New or fumigated comb. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:34:15 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate Allen asked: > I wonder if using SOE is any more efficacious than using powdered sugar? ...or lactic acid? ...or oxalic acid? Just a thought - oxalic can be sprayed or dripped, has anyone tried dripping SOE? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 23:03:12 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "allen dick" " From what I gather, SOE application requires spraying the surfaces of all > combs which are covered with bees at a time when little or no brood is > present. I wonder if using SOE is any more efficacious than using powdered sugar?" Personally , I was deeply impressed by Allen's earlier description of shaking bees into a box with some powdered sugar and rolling them around before release. It seemed to me that this could get the mites that are stuck to the undersides of the bees as well as those on their backs. It would also ensure no brood was killed by dehydration from sugar getting into open cells. Spraying bees on combs with SOE will presumably only get mites on bees's backs. As any SOE that gets into open cells will be an unexpected 'extra' to the carefully controlled food of a larva it could also interfere with normal larval development. Could those be reasons why powdered sugar might prove to be more effective? If u have to take ouit each comb anyway, a quicj shake to dislodge bees might not take langer than spraying each frame one by one. Bob has tested SOE I think. Any comments? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:15:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Really Raw Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Go to www.reallyrawhoney.com to see some real marketing at work. Quite interesting. Although the intent may be pure, the product is not, and the text contains obvious untruths. IMO this page contains blatantly false advertising and 'information' that is damaging to the honey industry as a whole. They say, "Really Raw Honey is totally unprocessed so it still contains pollen, propolis, honeycomb and live enzymes--all the goodness the bees put in!" Extracting IS processing, and also is the point in the handling where most damage is done to honey. Only improper handling while in the supers, improper heating or employing unsanitary facilities can rival extracting for the amount of damage that can be done to honey. In fact, the contamination caused by uncapping and extracting is the reason for the procedures that normally follow extraction -- warming, screening, filtering, etc. The damage done by uncapping and extracting is widely known by beekeepers, and no serious competitor would ever enter extracted honey into a liquid honey contest. Honey that is carefully and gently pressed and/or drained from the comb is preferred by those who are looking for the best, and, of course, we all know that honey in the comb is honey in its very purest, and the =only= unprocessed form. In addition to incorporating air and liberating volatile honey components into the air in the room, wax, propolis, dust, cocoons, pollen, bee parts, larval and pupal parts and fluids, and debris can be -- and almost invariably are -- incorporated into the formerly pure honey, during the process of uncapping and extracting. Although there are a few anomalous exceptions, contrary to what is stated on the page in question, pure honey -- honey in the comb before extarction -- does not normally contain "pollen, propolis, (and bits of) honeycomb". If any quantity of these materials is found in the honey, it is a direct result of the processing. Going down the page a bit, we see "Really Raw Honey is rich with live enzymes, vitamins and trace minerals!" We know this is false. (At least I hope we all do). Honey is not 'rich' with vitamins. Then we see, "Over decades, standard beekeeping practices have weakened the honey bees' immune system, making them more and more vulnerable to invading parasites and illness." Does anyone with any credibility actually believe this? And finally, "the fields of wildflowers and herbs where our bees gather nectar are never sprayed with pesticides or chemical fertilizers. " I assume that there is never mosquito control anywhere in their district and that they know exactly where the bees forage? I give them marks for imagination, but I think they are out of bounds on some of their claims. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:41:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Nosema (Again), Ontario, Australia and Protectionism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Fair enough, but looking for the protozoa itself allows one to > detect early cases, and "mild" cases. Clearly one can find > protozoa where one might not find spores. Don't know about that. Apparently, in any significant infection, spores are present in quantity. How long after the first bees gets infected they show up in other bees, I do not know. My understanding has been -- thus far -- that the amoebae develop in a bee after it ingests spores. If it is a large number, then we're in trouble. Chicken, or egg? I don't know. Here is an opportunity for a novel interpretation. >> to get quantatative estimates, a haemocytometer is used by some of >> us. > > Wow, beekeepers are trying to COUNT the darned things? > I'm impressed. I would have never thought to try. It is standard bee lab stuff. See www.honeybeeworld.com/beescience/ for our amateur efforts a few years back. > Ontario may be far from Alberta, but it is certainly closer > than New Zealand and Australia. Is it a timing thing, or > is it a Provincial thing? Of course it is a timing, shipping, and volume thing. Australians can get a decent shipment of several thousand queens together early in the season, on time, and on relatively short notice. Ontario cannot meet any of these criteria, and most of the queen producers are relatively small time (but skilled). Also, although ON is far south of most of Canada, they are still a long ways north compared to US queen raising country. Another factor is that most Western Canadian beekeepers do not like Australian queens (I found them good, however), and, given a choice, prefer Hawaiian or Californian stock. Even if they did like and want them, Australia cannot continue to provide queens after early April, in my experience. Not sure about NZ. > No comment on the irony inherent in US beekeepers buying queens > from some of the folks sure to be among the most vocal opposition > to any attempt to get Canada to comply with existing international > treaties in regard to trade in things like queens. I knew you wouldn't mention it. I won't either. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:57:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Caught Short MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > No comment on the irony inherent in US beekeepers buying queens > from some of the folks sure to be among the most vocal opposition > to any attempt to get Canada to comply with existing international > treaties in regard to trade in things like queens. Talk about irony, when a queen import protocol was being developed last fall by Medhat and others, Quebec nixed the import of queens for this (past) spring along with two other provinces (nations?). This spring Quebec beekeepers got hit heavily by winter loss. Reports are that some of that number were on their knees begging around for queens. Seems the traditional informal imports of up to 100,000 queens annually were truncated by border authorities -- who are lately very vigilant (in search of terrorists) and have to show they stopped something, and queens were suddenly in unusually short supply up here in the Great White North. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 15:47:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Really raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Aaron Said: The Really Raw Honey product is basically honey as it comes out of the extractor, period. Never heated, never filtered, never strained. Put a bucket under the extractor and fill it up. Really Raw makes a point of advertising the product they sell as precisely what it is. I personally looked at some of the Real Raw Honey jars and found a line says: No Pesticides. It came to my mind this though: If this product contains all of the wax with honey, How much will this product have of pesticides' residues. As beekeepers are using Coumaphos and Apistan for mite control. The residues are known to be socked into the wax. Did anyone ever though about taking samples and analyze them for residues? or is this type of honey extracted from colonies never treated with CheckMite or Apistan for varroa mite control? Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:08:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Really raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: I think the products being discussed here are questionable in the minds of most scrupulous beekeepers, and that those supplying them are skating a bit close to the edge. I think the above sums up my position! Really raw honey has a terrible (my opinion) flavor and what is the crunchy stuff if I dare to ask? It is my opinion and the opinion of several other beekeepers that something such as beeswax is mixed so Really Raw honey does not set up "rock hard". The product is almost slimy in taste! Please go to your local health food store BEE-L people and buy a jar and report back. I am sure my friend Aaron has only heard the Really Raw honey hype and not sampled the product! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:56:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: News flash! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I just learned off the Florida Beekeepers list that Jerry Hayes (formerly of Dadant) will head up the Florida Inspection Service replacing L. Cutts. Excellent choice in my opinion. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 19:41:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Richard Taylor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm sad to write that Richard Taylor passed away last Thursday evening at his home, the end of a long battle with cancer. "Sometimes the world seems on the verge of insanity, and one wonders what limit there can be to greed, aggression, deception and the thirst for power or fame. When reflections of this sort threaten one's serenity one can be glad for the bees, for the riches they yield to the spirit of those who love nature and feel their kinship with everything that creeps and swims and flies, that spins and builds, to all living things that arise and perish, to the whole of creation of which we are only a part, like the bees." The Joys of Beekeeping, 1974. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 19:25:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin said; Bob has tested SOE I think. Any comments? I fell behind in my bee work this fall and although I used/tested both Apilife Var and sucrose octanoate I do not have any actual data on efficacy. My friend Jerry Hayes (Dadant) which included me and another Missouri beekeeper (Monte Richardson) in field tests said he understands my problem and appreciates the fact that I will not publish test results which I consider flawed due to inaccurate timing of doses. What I know about SOE: Any common sprayer will work. Safe to both bees and beekeeper. Bob's advice: I believe you can simply pull the outside frame and then slide each frame over spraying without actually removing frames BUT I HAVE NOT GOT DATA TO SUPPORT MY OPINION AT THIS TIME. I tried both removing all frames and the above method. I plan to test again in the spring. Both methods produced varroa free hives. Fogging ( burgess fogger)of SOE did not work! SOE cleared the hives I used the product on of varroa. I got not one varroa on a 24 hour sticky board after treatment. Dadant claims 100% varroa control. I do not know about 100% but the control was above 90% in my opinion (wish I could give actual figures!) Further testing needs to be done . Keep in mind that so far no researcher in the world has come up with a bee which can survive varroa forever untreated. Even Russian & SMR bees might need a varroa clean up treatment every other year or so! Apilife var and SOE could be a possible solution as a 98% efficacy would not be needed with Russian & SMR bees. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 01:39:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Richard Taylor Never having met the man, I have nevertheless enjoyed his writing immensely. Not only his words themselve but his manner of conveying them have formed a part of my beekeeping "frame of mind" that I hope to maintain in his absense. He struck me as one of those characters, or distant relatives, that leave such a stamp upon ourselve that part of our own character is defined by their existence, and in their passing part of us is diminished also. /Curtis Crowell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 19:07:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I do not have any actual data on efficacy... > ...Both methods produced varroa free hives. Do you know what the starting mite level was? How was it determined? Was there brood during the treatment? How big were the hives? What was the ambient temperature? > SOE cleared the hives I used the product on of varroa. I got not one > varroa on a 24 hour sticky board after treatment. Was a a chemical strip used during the 24 hr drop test? > Dadant claims 100% varroa control. I do not know about 100% NOTHING gives 100% without killing the bees too. > but the control was above 90% in my opinion (wish I could give actual figures!) Jamie Strange, from WSU, doing a careful study, gave 65% as verified by alcohol wash, according to what I heard at BCHPA. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 19:14:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Dance maneuver information Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, PayneT@missouri.edu, tpaine@ucrac1.ucr.edu, rosinbio@yahoo.com, barry@birkey.com, ckstarr99@hotmail.com, bayer@sbceo.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Barry Donovan wrote: >Jim [Fischer] says dance information is never accurate enough to point to a >specific tree. Well I don't know whether humans could expect to get >as much accurancy out of a bee dance as a follower bee might, but >many people have claimed that they can obain sufficient infomation >to get pretty close to the >indicated food source. Even if the dance information isn't all that >accurate for a new forager, once within cooee [ ??? ] it will >encounter a plume of the same scent as carried by the dancing bee, >which it need only >follow in the manner indicated by Adrian Wenner to arrive at the flowers. ********* Perhaps few BEE-L subscribers are bothering to follow this thread anymore (though I hope they do) -- a simple exercise could settle the issue in their minds. Barry is now in a country that approaches summertime. He should easily be able to train 5 (five) marked forages to collect mildly scented sugar solution at a feeding station located 500 meters/yards DOWNWIND from a bee colony and allow no unmarked bees to return from that station to their colony. I can predict that he will obtain essentially no new recruits to that station during a three-hour period -- "bee language" or not. See Figure 4 in the following URL: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjnov1998b.htm Of course, he would have to work in a setting where wind direction is fairly steady, since light winds tend to be more variable. By contrast, he can repeat that experiment with a station 500 meters/yards located UPWIND from the hive. I can predict that he will get a very different set of results (as revealed in Figure 3 of the above URL). And, Jim can readily duplicate such an experiment next season when forage becomes scarce. Will either Barry or Jim (or any other bee language advocate) conduct such a simple experiment? I can predict that they will not do so. I can also predict that if they do so, they will not share their results with the rest of us. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) * ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 02:15:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Jamie Strange, from WSU, doing a careful study, gave 65% as verified > by alcohol wash, according to what I heard at BCHPA. Ooops. Sorry. He verified by using sticky boards during the application and new sticky boards, plus coumaphos drop after. He also repeated the test over a period of time. Several years, if I remember correctly. I remembered these details immediately after sending the post quoted above. I must confess that I lost interest somewhat and quit taking notes when I learned how ineffective SOE appeared to be. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:52:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Helicopters and bees In-Reply-To: <006f01c3a134$9e1c4510$28b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received this by email from a relative in Oregon - Any comments? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine Quote Hi, Do you have or is there info on a web site, etc. of the effect of helicopters on bees. A neighbor wants to have a conditional use permit for a helicopter and a neighbor of his has bees. No one in the neighborhood wants this helicopter, so we are getting up our defenses. The land use planning board has already had a community meeting over this, but they have yet to decide. Therefore more info can go to them. We have mentioned at least six items, bees being one of them. So we can add added info. Unquote :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:26:47 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Dance maneuver information Adrian said: > He should easily be able to train 5 (five) marked forages to collect > mildly scented sugar solution at a feeding station located 500 > meters/yards DOWNWIND from a bee colony and allow no unmarked bees > to return from that station to their colony. > I can predict that he will obtain essentially no new recruits to > that station during a three-hour period -- "bee language" or not. Heck with the warm weather we are having, many on the East Coast could do this experiment this week, and avoid the distraction of having competing nectar sources. Here (close to the middle of Nowhere, Virginia), we will have: Sun 79 F Today 84 (!!!) Tue 77 Wed 76 Thu 73 Fri 61 But as far as tests go, been there, done that, still have the tee shirt. Just to make life harder for the girls, I used 100% UNSCENTED sugar solution in sterile dishes, and trained across the entire length of my 500 acre field. Conditions included "no wind", "upwind", and "downwind". Lots of recruits, no scent, no distractions (500 acres of freshly-cut hay stubble). The bees were NWCs and Weaver Buckfasts, so it was fairly easy to verify which hive the bees came from, as anyone can distinguish a (darker) NWC from a (lighter) Buckfast. The tested hives were within 50 feet of each other. My shoe size is 8 1/2. My results were very similar to those cited in "The Honey Bee" by James L. Gould Carol Grant Gould. But if one has such warm weather, a better use of one's time might be to check some colony weights and feed the light colonies. Yesterday, I pumped two 55-gallon drums of syrup into hive-top feeders as all this warm weather, combined with zero nectar means that my colonies will be losing weight. All in all, the constant rain kept sorties down, washed nectar out of blossoms, and reduced harvestable honey to well below the reduced harvests due to the prior 4 years of drought. The rain also meant little newly drawn comb. More supers of foundation deployed this spring went BACK into inventory for use next spring than went into the stacks of supers of "drawn" comb. At risk of sounding like a Chicago Cubs fan, there is always next year. :) In other news, I see that Kim Flottum has picked a stable location for the "Sugar" article, complete with artwork, so while I have sent out all reprints requested to date, I'll continue to mail out reprints only to those who have no computer, news that will be music to the ethernet port of my color printer. Here's the link: http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/SugarReprint.pdf Also, here's the latest results from the Supercollider, where bees, politics, law, and random associations of beekeepers were all accelerated to near the speed of light and smashed into each other, now even available to those too cheap to buy a subscription. Consider it fair notice that you too have a decent chance of winning a 5-year subscription to Bee Culture for writing one good, short, snappy line. http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/months/03nov/03nov2.htm jim (Exposing "conspiracy theory" conspiracies since 1970) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:21:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We have become a quiet bunch, lately; I guess everybody is busy counting money. Jim opines that “Until such time as I see some verified results that prompt researchers and/or breeders to make the claims that they would certainly love to make, I will continue to both test and treat problems and keep my bees alive. Even when such "resistant" bees are offered, I would tend to continue to test for quite some time before I was willing to bet my colonies to save a few pennies.” Can’t beat that, Jim, since that way of thinking is the *mainstream beekeeping* and it works and has been proven, scientifically. Given that we live in a *free country,* or so we loud-mouth, I also appreciate those refusing to be among the herd of independent minds. Nothing can be easier than simply following what others do and do well, successfully. Not to beat the dead horse again, nevertheless, I do admire those on this list who take risks regardless of the outcome. Simply put one will never know till he/she tries; most important, one time experiment of not treating and the consequent failure thereof cannot and must not discourage them since the variables in nature constantly change, such as AHB or weakening VD, etc. To be curious and to experiment, I believe, is just as human as to be secure and safe. The former sounds more scientific; the latter, more religious you would agree. And I believe this inborn, unquenchable thirst in us is what drives science, in general, and scientific beekeeping, in particular. Exclude me in with those in the risk-taking camp, for “a paradise” in this context sounds a bit too boring for my restless soul. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:59:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > SOE cleared the hives I used the product on of varroa. I got not one > varroa on a 24 hour sticky board after treatment. Allen asked: Was a a chemical strip used during the 24 hr drop test? Yes Bob said: > Dadant claims 100% varroa control. I do not know about 100% Allen said: NOTHING gives 100% without killing the bees too. What I said to Dadant when I was first advised of the product . Their reply was if you wet the varroa with SOE the varroa will die so if all bees with varroa are soaked all varroa are killed. The kill is similar to the way soapy water kills bees. No bees will be killed and none were in my experiement.. I said: > but the control was above 90% in my opinion (wish I could give actual figures!) I can only say what happened in my usage this fall. Maybe I should have kept quiet which was my original intent. Not one varroa on a sticky board in 24 hours does not indicate a 100% kill but I would say at least a 90% plus as there could be from one to 300 varroa still in the hive or NONE. My bees are very hygienic so perhaps they tossed a couple fallen varroa out the entrance. I use a mixture of petroleum jelly on my homemade sticky boards instead of the high priced DeWitt & IPM sticky boards used by researchers. Dr. Sammataro told us last week we need to use the store bought sticky boards, 8 mesh screen and always use controls if our testing is to be looked at seriously by researchers. Dr. Sammataro seemed unimpressed when I said the sticky boards & screens I use were paterned off a design I got off Allen Dick's web site. Quote Dr. Sammataro from Missouri State beekeepers meeting: "You can only believe about half of what you read on the internet". I actually agree with her and say it can be hard to figure out which half is the half to believe! Take my experience for what it is . I know varroa was in the hives. I treated as per label but the timing was off. No varroa on sticky board after treatment. Hopefully I will have the time to do proper testing in the spring. I see SOE as another tool in the beekeepers arsenal but perhaps not a tool I would use on a large number of hives because of the labor involved until a better method of application is found.. I do like the safe aspect of SOE for the beekeeper, no worries about comb or honey contamination, and low cost. Bob's advice: These days you should always test/treat early and test at end of treatment period to see if your varroa control worked allowing for a different method to be used in case the method you first chose was a failure! Thanks for the reply Allen. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:21:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Really raw honey Comments: To: Bob Harrison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob thinking out loud: "Maybe I could buy a new concret mixer and put my perfect comb honey in and toss in a pound of proplis and mix....." Don't forget to add a couple dozen frames of pollen! Then for those folks who want the really fancy light water white honey you could heat the whole cement mixer load up with a couple of propane burners and then ultrafilter and pasturize the mess so that it would taste almost like the stuff in the grocery stores from China and Argentina, "Got Honey?". Seriously, the marketing of honey is big business and those companies with the resources and the right marketing tactics, public relation associates, and advertising have the ability to create and market whatever concepts they desire all without factual consideration of the "true" process of manufacturing the wonderful stuff that the marvelous honeybee so gratefully provides. We have available for purchase freeze- dried "powdered" honey, ultra-purified, and ultra-ultra-purified honey and now from a link supplied by the National Honey Board, www.gotmead.com, double-ultra-filtered mead: " a state-of-the-art Meadery located in China is seeking established and licensed distributors for a variety of Honey Mead products. This publicly listed company uses Acacia flower honey, which undergoes an ultra-filtration process and quality control procedures granted ISO-9001:2000 certification in 2001. The water used undergoes a series of filtration and softening processes before being used in production. A special kind of yeast is added and maintained at a temperature around 21ºC - 24ºC for approximately 15 days. The barrels of fermenting Mead are closely monitored and adjusted on a daily basis. The aging time is about two months. After aging the Mead undergoes another ultra-filtration process. It is then goes to the bottling, sterilization, labeling and packaging..... The alcoholic content is 11%." Perhaps Bob should patent his innovative process since I know that sooner or later someone will be loading a brand new stainless steel cement mixer full of honeycomb.:) Chuck Norton (who is trying really hard to create a recipes for bottled brood, pickled wax moths, and honey coated small hive beetles; and, hoping that for the moderators it is a really, really slow day.) Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:27:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Really raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron: An excellent rebuttal on Raw Honey! And I must agree with you, too. Although I have never advertised my own honey as Raw Honey as such, mine is minimum, cold-filtered honey, and when I bottle mine, after skimming the overnight floaters [the “nuts and bolts” as George once put it] atop the settling tank, I still see tiny wax-capping-debris forming a ring atop the quart jars I exclusively use, but not to such an extent that it will turn the buyers off. I have this year retailed a barrel of honey ($10 per quart) this way, and I have less than a case [about six quarts] left to my name. To further accentuate the *semblance* of uncouth RAWNESS of “ma- and pa- home operation” in the outback, I deliberately avoid using any fancy labeling: I just use the cheapest address label I can get from Staples, print in black and white the necessary info using my desktop inkjet printer, water-proof the sheet with a hair-sprayer, and stick them on the bottle. Done. They are not sold at any grocery stores yet; rather, they are sold, by case, at banks, a Feed Center, schools, tribal stores, a local factory, and to neighbors, all through word of mouth [Yes, the consumer is the king, being always right]; in fact, they call me around August, asking when I will extract. I have not been able to advertise on the local news paper, for I just have not had enough inventories so far. At the Feed Center, they retail my honey around $13.00 per quart [Atwood’s, about$7.50, a slight increase from last year], for my local honey is a rarity around here after VD wiped out beekeepers, and the savvy manager there tells me about the high price, “You never want to start low in selling business,” understanding the weird psychology of buyers ,and they do. RAW is in; sophistication, out. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:10:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for bee equipment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good morning: At the national meeting of AHP and ABF in January, 03; several commercial beekeepers asked if there was anything available to deter theft of beehives (especially with the high price of honey). At that time, I did not have a cost-effective solution. Two recent developments can provide some help. 1) Joe Traynor, Scientific Ag Co has sent out placards and small, glass pit tags costing $2.70 each. He has a reader. These grain of rice sized tags can be inserted into a frame and provide a permanent and unique I.D. number that is virtually undetectable without a reader. These chips are used to tag pets. Although convenient to use, the cost is high and the range of the reader is short. Joe acknowledged these limitation in his October newsletter and forcasted that a better technology or 'super chip' would be available from us next year. 2)We have the super chip right now! We recieved our first reader and chips about 3 weeks ago and gave a demonstration to the MT beekeepers. Wade Anderson, the President of the MT Beekeepers Association is now looking for other beekeepers who might share in an order of these new chips. The advantages of the new RFID tag are lower cost, which will become far lower in about two years, longer range (they can be detected or read 8-12 ft away, not inches), and they are paper thin. By 2005 or 2006, this chip will be manufactured in billions per year and sold for pennies a chip -- for use in large retail stores (the contracts are already in place). We are working with bee equipment suppliers to be able to soon provide these chips already embedded in hive bodies and frames. 3) At this point, we and Wade want to see these chips in as many hives as practical. Tagging even one hive per pallet should act as a deterrant and would surely help in hive recovery. The cost per tag depends on how many are bought at one time - its about $1.00 per tag for 1000 or fewer, roughly 50 cents for 50,000. One retailer bought 500 million for 20 cents a tag, but I doubt that we can find that many beekeepers. 4) If you want to tag your equipment with these tags before pollination season, contact Wade at 406-357-3835. We've got a reader and will work with Joe Traynor to be sure that a reader is available for the west coast. At this time, the readers are still pricey, but that will change in a few months as small, hand-held readers come into the market place (prototypes are being tested now). 5) Eventually, we see these tags as being part of an automated, real-time inventory as well as part of a bee management system. We have access to related technologies that can relay information such as temperature, weight gain and loss, etc. through relatively inexpensive systems. At that time, we hope to provide a bee/data management service to the industry -- but that's a bit down the line. Best Regards Jerry Bromenshenk Bee Alert Research at the University of Montana Bee Alert Technology, Inc. With respect to this issue, please respond to: beeresearch@aol.com P.S. I will have a demo system at the upcoming California beekeeping meeting in Lake Tahoe. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:29:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Apilife Var Jim asked about seeing nosema: I think that we may have been at cross purposes, my mistake. Jim is trying to see the protozoa, whereas I (and I suspect most others) would be looking for the spores. > Do you use a stain? No > How do you prepare your samples? This is detailed in Morse and Hooper, Encyclopaedia of Beekeeping. Simply crush abdomens (these would be from the normal 30 bee sample dissected for acarine) with 10ml water in a mortar and pestle, place drop of the liquid on slide and cover with a cover glass. Usually view at 400x. Spores easily visible as 'rice grains'. The book also gives method for quantitative analysis of the severity of the infection for nosema , as well as a table of probabilities for the acarine analysis. > What sort of light source are you using? Tungsten light bulb. > The concept of the "treadmill" does not apply to Fumadil and > Nosema. It is not like the protozoa are going to develop > "resistance", now is it? :) I do not know the answer to that one - are we back to trying to prove a negative? > I feel obligated to point out the obvious - > we have exactly two problems (varroa and AFB) that have developed > "resistance" of any sort. I know of no reports of "resistance" > in ANY OTHER pest or disease. Hmmm! you might not have included AFB in the not too distant past! > I hear of many beekeepers who think that they have (all by > themselves) "bred from the survivors", and ended up with bees > resistant to varroa. At least they are trying! The reason that we do not have a problem with acarine in the UK is that we have bred from the survivors. > They claim "no losses", I will never be accused of that! > Until such time as I see some verified results that prompt > researchers and/or breeders to make the claims that they > would certainly love to make, I will continue to both test > and treat problems and keep my bees alive. And so will I - but not by looking for problems where common sense and simple observation tells me that they do not exist, or are at such low levels as to be insignificant. > Even when such > "resistant" bees are offered, I would tend to continue to > test for quite some time before I was willing to bet my > colonies to save a few pennies. I will be reluctant even then. Breeding and distributing vast numbers of queens from a limited number of truly resistant queens could do irreparable damage to the gene pool, especially given that there are so few, if any, truly feral colonies left. This would leave our bees in an even more vulnerable state. > The Latin translates to "Merciful lord Jesus, Grant them rest" > which I feel is a highly appropriate prayer for bees that are > abandoned by their owner and left to cope as best they can with > the whims of disease and attacks of pests. Agree - but there is a world of difference between limited, necessary intervention and attempted total control. I am, frankly, horrified by the postings on the newsgroups that I read - menthol patties, grease patties, terra patties, pollen patties, endless feeding of sugar at times when the bees should be feeding themselves, Apistan, Bayvarol, Checkmite, Fumadil... the list goes on and on. One person wrote, 'I have just started keeping bees; how do I medicate them?' I am sure that Marla Spivak was right to say that beekeepers have become pushers. In my view, bees can be kept very successfully without the need for any drugs or pesticides, except perhaps in the case of varroa. I know that some will say that varroa can be controlled by other means, but here I choose to use thymol crystals to keep numbers to a sub-lethal level in order to give the bees a chance to develop resistance. Others may disagree with my strategy, which I see as a least worst option. I do regard this as a treadmill and will be delighted to get off it when I can. > I'm a beeKEEPER. I'm gonna do what I can to KEEP the bees. Never doubted it! > That's not a treadmill. A "treadmill" is when I use even > more nasty chemicals because less nasty ones have stopped > working. Disagree - my view is that it is a treadmill to use any drug where none is needed. > > Incidentally, Fumadil is no longer available in the UK. > I did not know that. Neither apparently do some bee supply > houses. Thorne http://www.thorne.co.uk and Bees Online > http://www.bees-online.co.uk both still list the product > in their online catalogs. What's up with that? Whoops! How did I miss that one? No matter, I am afraid that I will not be adding to Mr Thorne's fortune at £76 for 54 colonies - even if I was inclined to use it. > ...So what would you use in the UK to treat a case of Nosema > if you were so inclined? Put bees on to clean comb and sterilise the old ones with acetic acid if they are in otherwise good condition. Fumidil does not cure nosema in a colony - it kills nosema within individual bees, but nothing to reduce the level of infection on the combs. I felt that some recent posts may have confused nosema and amoeba. Amoeba are, of course found in the malpighian tubules and may be seen under the microscope (in the test described above) as round cysts (not spores). The fumigation of comb with acetic acid will also kill amoeba. (But most of you knew all that!) I note that there was no comment on my question about average crops in the US. Surely with all this monitoring, medication, feeding, double and triple brood boxes, your average must be at least 1000lbs per colony? :-) Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:19:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Really raw honey In-Reply-To: <200311031527.hA3Exned011642@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "... water-proof the sheet [of labels] with a hair-sprayer ..." Tricks like this are why I enjoy reading BEE-L. So simple and so obvious in hindsight. Thank you. Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:47:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: North American Institute for Study of Environmental and Pesticide Effects on Pollinators (provisional name) Comments: cc: Bugoff95@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We are pleased to announce that Dr. Dan Mayer has joined with us at The University of Montana to form a National Pesticide Laboratory. As many of you know, Dan is arguably the U.S. expert on pesticides and bees. We, on the other hand, have some of the best equipment and facilities for the conduct of laboratory and field studies of bees and environmental stressors, as well as 30 years of experience in the investigation of a wide array of environmental and toxic chemicals with respect to effects on bee colonies. Dan 'retired' from his position at Prosser and moved to Montana. Since then, we've been working together on a variety of pesticide related issues, such as the questions about Imidicloprid and the Minnesota hybrid popular tree plantations. We seem to be having some effect -- EPA will host a workshop this winter on the nicotinic pesticides, and a wide array of agencies and groups have agreed to meet in Missoula next summer for a National Forum on Pesticides and Pollinators. We will offer our pesticide consulting, investigation, and research services via two sources: 1) Through the University of Montana for basic research in pesticide and related issues. 2) Through Bee Alert Technology, Inc. -- our new company that has received approval from the Montana Board of Regents. Bee Tech has license rights to methods and equipment developed through the University, and with Regental approval, we have consider flexibility in how we conduct work. One of our key reasons for establishing a company is so that we can conduct proprietary research for the beekeeping industry and/or enact research that might require us to present the results in a variety of forums, including litigation. The other reason for forming a company was so that we could transition into the market place the methods and equipment that we have developed over the past years. Overall, our goal is to provide high quality research and factual information necessary for dealing with current problems. Together, Dan, I, and Dr. Henderson, our quantitative ecologist and experimental design expert, bring over 80 years of practical experience to this topic. We look forward to working closely with the beekeeping industry on pesticide-related problems. Sincerely, Jerry Bromenshenk beeresearch@aol.com Colin Henderson beeresearch@aol.com Daniel Mayer Bugoff95@aol.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:17:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apilife Var MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon said; Not to beat the dead horse again, nevertheless, I do admire those on this list who take risks regardless of the outcome. So do I but fail to understand why many repeat methods which were proven as uneffective by others years ago. example: The *leave alone* method and breed from survivors for varroa control has been around since 1987 in the U.S.. One beekeeper lost all two thousand of his colonies and went bankrupt in the early nineties. The USDA in Baton Rouge said that selecting queens from the hives with the lowest varroa counts did not produce varroa tolerant bees after several years of trying as the reasons for a hives low or high varroa count can be from many different reasons totally unrelated to the bees. yet: Beekeepers still push *leave alone and breed from survivors* even on the BEE-L list. Yoon said; To be curious and to experiment, I believe, is just as human as to be secure and safe. I put a small number of hives aside to experiment with but will never experiment with all my hives (which many beekeepers do!). Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:55:26 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Queen bee breeding In-Reply-To: <169.25d3f048.2cd5799c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <169.25d3f048.2cd5799c@aol.com>, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes in answer top the question >> What breed(s) are common in the UK? >> >> The native is Amm, but over the years there have been many imports of >> Italians especially, and of course the Buckfast was developed here. Therefore >we >> now have mainly mongrels with strong Amm influence with pockets of fairly pure >> Amm especially in the north where conditions are harsher. and south west and Wales, especially in the higher ground and further west and south. Sometimes people import carnicans. That makes it a bit harder to distinguish the hybrids from those predominantly Amm. The race was, like carnicans, widely spread throughout Europe north of the mountains that divide north from south and had many variants or subraces. So they vary widely across the UK and Ireland, France and in north eastern Europe, where they are alive and well. Our own "Cornish bee" winters well, is more prolific than the books say in the earlier springs and lower altitudes, expands well from early spring and can swarm early if sufficient space is not given. Many colonies seem to give low mite fall as well as obviously hygienic and are good candidates for selection and breeding. Our Cornwall Bee Improvement Group has made a small start with getting on for 200 colonies amongst its 20 odd members. The intention is to exchange less promising queens in each apiary with daughter queens from one parent mated in one apiary so that the next year should improve the drones from that apiary. Ideally strains are maintained by local area exchange where possible. Expansion of the area covered coupled with queen change will hopefully show some improvement over the years, especially as more members come into the group. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:50:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings Everyone, I haven't used Sucrose Octanoate but I have used powdered sugar. One possible advantage to a product like Sucrose Octanoate is the probable greater exposure time for the mites to this treatment. With powdered sugar the effects of the treatment last less than 24 hours as the bees consume and clean up the sugar in that time. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:15:06 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: North American Institute for Study of Environmental and Pesticide Effects on Pollinators (provisional name) > We are pleased to announce that Dr. Dan Mayer has joined with us... > We will offer our pesticide consulting, investigation, and research > services... Congrats, but since the name is provisional, may I point out that it is a mouthful, and the acronym (NAISEPEP) is unpronounceable? To continue to get grants and good funding, you need a better name. People like catchy names. How about: Pesticide and Environmental Standards and Toxicology Studies (PESTS) American Studies About Pollinators (ASAP) Western Hemisphere Organization Dedicated to Action on Toxics (WHO DAT?) Pesticide Undertaking on Toxicology and Pollinators Under Threat (PUT-PUT) Division Dedicated to Toxicology (DDT) jim (A Charter member of AAAAAA - the "American Association Advancing All Accurate Acronyms", first in phonebooks across the nation) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:30:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: North American Institute for Study of Environmental and Pesticide Effects on Pollinators (provisional name) Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <0fc101c3a257$fe44c4c0$7604c518@gollum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We agree, the name's too long. We're open to a better name. James has some good ones, anyone else? At 05:15 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, James Fischer wrote: the acronym (NAISEPEP) is unpronounceable? >>How about: > Pesticide and Environmental Standards and Toxicology Studies (PESTS) > > American Studies About Pollinators (ASAP) > > Western Hemisphere Organization Dedicated to Action on Toxics (WHO DAT?) > > Pesticide Undertaking on Toxicology and Pollinators Under Threat (PUT-PUT) > > Division Dedicated to Toxicology (DDT) > > > jim (A Charter member of AAAAAA - the "American > Association Advancing All Accurate Acronyms", > first in phonebooks across the nation) > > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:15:28 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: if you wet the varroa with SOE the varroa will die so if > all bees with varroa are soaked all varroa are killed. > The kill is similar to the way soapy water kills bees. My question is still - if u spray bees on combs, u only spray their backs. Some Varroa also stick to bees' undersides - yes? Do those varroa also get sufficiently wet? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:36:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Re: Richard Taylor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What a loss. It was Richard's book, "The Joys of Beekeeping" that sparked my interest in bees, that led me to my first class on beekeeping with Dewey Caron at University of Maryland in the spring of 1977. I corresponded with Richard briefly while in the Army stationed at Walter Reed Army Institute of Research. He was a charming man. We have all lost with his passing. Coleene www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:55:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: if you wet the varroa with SOE the varroa will die so if > all bees with varroa are soaked all varroa are killed. > The kill is similar to the way soapy water kills bees. My question is still - if u spray bees on combs, u only spray their backs. Some Varroa also stick to bees' undersides - yes? Do those varroa also get sufficiently wet? You wet the bees down pretty good. Jerry Hayes said the first time he used the product he wondered what he was doing to his bees. I had the same feeling. Many end up in a ball on the bottom board or in the grass outside the hive if the frames are removed to be sprayed. The bees do recover in about an hour and resume normal hive activity. You soak/almost drown the bees three times. hard to believe the under belly is missed but you could be right Robin on a few bees. I would like to experiment with only using one treatment, only two and *most important* only one after all brood rearing has stopped in late fall. Also check the difference between spring & fall treatments. For me spring treatments would work best for me. Find out which is the most effective spring or fall treatments OR no difference. My business has grown so I am busy all year when I used to be done in fall and could read etc. all winter. The last two years I have had a hard time keeping up with everything and instead of having time to enjoy beekeeping I am always behind it seems. My wife and employees say I am an old grouch. Hell of a way to talk to the boss! I guess I will have to really retire ( I retired in 1998) to get the free time I want to enjoy beekeeping . Downsizing has not helped with free time. I run on a priority list of things to do which is in my office. I love experiments but they are so time consuming. I am not one to complain but I got down in the back in the middle of SOE testing (and other bee work)and had to ease up for for about a week and a half. I will be at the National Small farm Today trade show in Columbia, Missouri this Thur., Fri.& Sat.. The show was advertised in the last issue of *Speedy Bee* so maybe a few beekeepers will stop by my booth and say "Hi". We have been doing the show now for ten years I believe. Located in the center of Missouri the show is an easy drive from all parts of the state. I enjoy doing the show and meeting people from the small farm movement! About Apilife var: I treated 150 hives with Apilife Var. All treatments (three) were done correctly and at the right time. After I return from Columbia I will be testing about 10% of those hives to see what control Apilife var provided. Will post results later. I only know of one other beekeeper in Missouri which tried Apilife var on a few hives and he did so late. In fact I believe he is now doing his last treatment. Maybe I can find out how well he did. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:34:15 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Radio Frequency Identification Tags MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry & all > 5) Eventually, we see these tags as being part of an automated, > real-time inventory as well as part of a bee management system. Oh! do I wish I was 20 years old... This is the way forward as far as gathering some of the information, but we can only deal with the information in the light of current knowledge about bees and their ways. This knowledge is good in part, but sadly lacking in some other directions and no doubt some of the truths that we hold dear will be shattered by future research. I hope we can keep pace with the information gathering in order to make use of it. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 08:54:36 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" I would like to experiment with only using one treatment, only two and > *most important* only one after all brood rearing has stopped in late fall. I guess I will have to really retire ( I retired in 1998) to get the free time I want to enjoy beekeeping " Bob, do NOT retire. It is fatal - the (active) retired are far busier than the employed! Two reasons - anything that has to be done has to be done by u yourself - and the relaxation of business discipline means u widen your focus and become involved (at last) in all the things u ought to have been doing the last 20 years. Plus everyone thinks u have nothing to do, so bring u their things for u to do. Much better to die in harness! But when u get so grouchy noone wants to work with u any more - then let's hope u do the experiments u mentioned that are so important. Can I please add one more test - my constant song I know, but I'm sure it's sweet. You included treating varooa in spring - I assume the aim is to hit before there is much brood. The defect is that the spring burst of brood rearing is yet to come, a wave on which varroa are carried to new heights, especially as bees raise drone brood at that time. So treatment mid-summer would be good - but the problem is that the brood nest is very large and 80% of varroa are hidden in brood. HOWEVER, if the colony is Demareed, it is split into a broodless 'swarm' (that could be treated effectively with SOE immediately) and a 'parent nest' in which all brood will have emerged 3 weeks later, when it can be treated with SOE in turn. If the bees are given a right dousing, this routine ought to get a good overall hit. You may say noone Demarees as it is too laborioos - that is a separate question. If the regime works, the problem becomes how to make Demareeing more practical. My answer (as posted before) is to use a double length hive body and Demarree just by moving individual frames at the the same level - no heavy lifting involved. The Long Deep hive is suitable for those who keep bees in permanent locations - in UK, the vast majority of hobbyists , who own perhaps half of all colonies. Don't know about other countries, but there must be some hobbyists (with whom IMHO the future of beekeeping in advanced countries rests). So we would really appreciate your testing the principle, Bob. If at your great age u are starting to get back trouble, time u tried out the Long Deep hive in general for the home apiary - it cuts down the lifting requirement to just 16lbs , a half sized super. Of course u can carry several at a go, so as not to look too whimpy. But even then, the smaller boxes are carried closer to the spine, so less strain. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:05:18 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Really raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "yoonytoons" : "RAW is in; sophistication, out." Yoon speaks for many of us, but it is such a shame that whenever we get close to this subject the posts get so extreme. The Really Raw web site says many things to make a beekeeper cringe - no need to go so far. But then Bob goes and says "Really raw honey has a terrible (my opinion) flavor and what is the crunchy stuff if I dare to ask?" And that after Bob has claimed to know honey! The crunchy, Bob, is the large crystals that can form in raw honey if it contains (some) coarse garanulating honeys. The 'slime' is NOT of course 'wax' (it would have needed to be vapourised and condensed to make small enough balls) but the ungraulated residue containing high quantiies of aromatic oils (if the honey comes from the right plants). Spendid stuff - superb on buttered scones - leaves the uniform, bland, mangled, over-filtered, denatured by heating, bleached, blended, sweet tasting paste manufactured by the large packers out of commercially-produced honey plus cheap foreign imports far , far behind. May I repeat an earlier post concerning 'producing pure honey' when I said we lack a set of definitions of different ways of producing/processing honey that have a universal meaning, and this is dumd so far as generic marketing goes. If I buy milk fr the Co-Op of from a supermarket, ''full-cream', semi-skimmed' and skimmed' means the same. Honey consumers have to find and stick to one particular label to get consistency. I suggested Bob is well placed to get a set of definions accepted by the various factions and this would be a great service by Bee-L as well as a nice project to crown his career. Any volunteers to help Bob or some other distinguished project-leader? Anyway, the list that needs working up looks like (at least): Organic - no poisons or manufactured chemicals (including thymol) involved in any stage of production or processing Raw - no filtering or heating in processing - only natural separation of dross thru flotation Pure - no dilution of floral honey by sugar honey (which means , from hives never fed sugar, as some of ANY sugar feed will end up in supers, however much the followers of certain beekeeping systems like to deny it - up to 25% of sugar honey content cannot be traced by taste, according to research at Rothamstead, IBRA abstract 888 of 1974) Sugar honey - honey made by bees from sugar fed as syrup, perfectly wholesome, containing the same balance of sugars as floral honey but less than normal content of trace components found in nectar- BUT NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH PLAIN 'HONEY' Fruited sugar honey - flavoured by addition of fruit juices to the sugar syrup, as tried by the Russians - even more wholesome, cheap to produce, healthy in that the suga content is glucose/fructose not sucrose - a possible growth area for beekeepers in areas with poor forage . Fortified sugar honey - with added vitamins and minerals to act as diet supplements Honeydew - honey made by bees from plant juice that has not been expressed thru the plants nectaries (and has been thru another insect on the way) Filtered - filtered thru xxx mesh to remove all pollen Runny - has been heated enough to prevent granulation Processed - made into a consistent product thru blending in order to produce large consistent batches for large-scale outlets These categories are not of course exclusive - a honey for food faddists might be 'Pure, raw organic honey'. A paste might be , conceivably, 'processed organic honey' if derived from some remote mountainous area. Has all this 'definition development' already been done? Does it only need more publicity? Do some beekeepers already mark their labels 'pure honey, complying to definition zzz' ? If not, why are we all so dumb when it comes to marketing? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:28:06 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: North American Institute for Study of Environmental and Pesticide Effects on Pollinators (provisional name) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry & all > We agree, the name's too long. We're open to a better name. James has > some good ones, anyone else? I have no other suggestions, but I like Jim's > > Pesticide and Environmental Standards and Toxicology Studies > > (PESTS) It is so direct and to the point, simple, memorable and relevent. Which to my mind is what acronyms should be about... Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Member of BIBBA, L&RBKA, IIG ex IINGRIDD, GBBG and SOP (Supporter Of Pests) Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:49:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for bee equipment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I think it this kind of technology will be pretty slow in catching on in the industry. It may be useful in large operations for inventory tracking, but the cost of readers and software will prohibit use in most operations till they come down a bit. It unfortunately does little to discourage vandalism and theft. The hive will be long gone before the thief ever knows of this protection, and will only be detected if he tries to sell to a beekeeper who happens to have a device to read it. And if the reader is cheap enough for even us hobbyists to protect ourselves from stolen goods, it also cheap enough for the thief so he either can remove the devices, or use the reader to identify hives not protected by the device. (And I wouldn't count on law enforcement agencies to have a reader, or for bee inspectors to have one. Most programs that are still fortunate enough to exist are only doing so by a narrow margin) Hopefully they won't fall into the same trap as pet ID chips. There are several different types of chips which require different readers, and several different locations on the animal to put them in. Often in one area one type is common (because the local shelter has a reader for the particular type, etc.), but loose your dog in another location and the shelter there may have no clue the animal is yours even if it has a chip. (Some shelters do tattoos to identify the original shelter to get around this.) Never the less it would be an interesting inventory tracking system. Scan supers as they are placed on hives, and scan and record weight when they return full of honey. If they can tie it into a hand held computer with voice recognition, I might be able to keep a useful set of notes one day. For now though I'm considering a good branding iron, and possibly even branding the top bars, bottom boards, tops, etc. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:38:11 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for bee equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim & all > For now though I'm considering a good branding iron, and possibly > even branding the top bars, bottom boards, tops, etc. I this not routine in USA? I brand almost every wooden component, including frame side bars, topbars and if the frame has a single solid bottom bar that gets a brand as well. But I do keep records of any equipment that I sell to others, also if I buy kit that already has someone's brand on it I put my own brand alongside the original so that both show. I have also considered identifying hive bodies by implanting a harmonic radar reflector within the wood 10 GHz transmit and 20 GHz receive, with a transmitter in the 500mW region and a horn antenna this would scan a considerable distance within line of sight from the roof of a land rover or similar. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:19:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Really raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Robin, The chruncy was not honey crystals! The texture was suspect. Buy a jar an try yourself and report back! The small beekeeper has a hard time understanding (in my opinion) why I object to the largest packers in the U.S. selling organic honey. One of the largest packers in Argentina is already selling under the organic label even though Argentine honey is banned right now in the U.K. I believe because of contamination problems. Your list makes sense but TOTALLY UNINFORCABLE. The whole concept is on the honor system. The USDA has had trouble even enforcing "Pure Honey" . Can they police "organic honey" or "raw Honey"? The small U.S. beekeeper has bad mouthed the large packer (like you did in your post) Robin so now the large packer has found a way to shut up all the hype about their overfiltered, over processed foreign honey. Three large packers I have been told now can label organic in the U.S.. I do not know of a U.S. agency which will police honey on shelves with the organic label to see if it really is what it is claimed to be! The organic food business which Rodale started has climbed from a small farmer doing things correctly to a huge industry (9 billion last year) with no policing using the organic food label. I do the largest farmers market in the six state area. I see farmers all the time bring in a load of perfect produce. Not one mark from a bug and claim the product has never been sprayed with a pesticide. City folks at times have called Bob "another dumb farmer" but at least I don't buy the no spray hype of certain farmers selling perfect lettuce like a few "city folks" do! I raised and sold produce for a few years! Just because a farmer puts up a cardboard sign that says "no sprays" or "organic" does not make it so! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:19:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Re: Dance maneuver information Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, PayneT@missouri.edu, tpaine@ucrac1.ucr.edu, rosinbio@yahoo.com, barry@birkey.com, ckstarr99@hotmail.com, bayer@sbceo.org, dgnpune@yahoo.co.in In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I appreciate the opportunity to respond to Jim Fischer's solid adherence to the dance language hypothesis. It provides an opportunity to present information to others about this sort of research. Jim wrote that searching bees in his example could find UNSCENTED sugar solution, as in his statement: >Just to make life harder for the girls, I used 100% UNSCENTED sugar >solution in sterile dishes, and trained across the entire length >of my 500 acre field. Conditions included "no wind", "upwind", >and "downwind". Lots of recruits, no scent, no distractions (500 acres >of freshly-cut hay stubble). There are several problems with the above situation, problems that are covered quite fully in Chapter 8 of our 1990 book, ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY. 1) Bees can become conditioned to any odor, even extremely faint ones (in a few parts per billion or less). That fact has bedeviled many a researcher, since bees can associate something so subtle as deodorant, shampoo, or cut grass with a food reward. 2) Jim worked in a field of "freshly-cut hay stubble." Wow! What an incredible mix of potential odors that can cling to the hairs of foraging bees. Figure 8.1 on p. 134 of our 1990 book illustrates how that circumstance can influence results. 3) Really pure sucrose solution has a vapor pressure of zero (Merck Index listing). That means that no sugar molecules pass into the air above the solution. That also means that honey bees cannot smell well-prepared sugar solution. 4) One may think he/she has an odor-free sugar solution, but care in preparation is all important. Most small lots of sugar now come in paper bags. Unless one takes proper precautions, any sugar solution prepared from that source has a slight paper odor (we labelled that problem "paper factor" on p. 133 of our book). 5) With super care, a pure sucrose solution yields zero recruits -- covered on p. 134 of our book in the following passage: "On 25 July 1968...in the absence of a major nectar source for the colony, we received only five recruits from a hive of approximately 60,000 bees after ten bees had foraged at each of four stations for a total of 1374 round trips during a 3-hour period." Of course, we set out clean dishes and fresh solution each 15 minutes to make sure that the odor of visiting bees didn't accumulate. Consider a more recent example. Early last month a group of us had thousands of foragers from 14 colonies collecting unscented sucrose from a group of double-compartment dishes. One compartment had the unscented sucrose solution. The adjacent compartment in each case had an extremely faint odor that could cling to the foraging bees as they drank. Searching recruits readily found those dishes, but only because of the odor packet in the second compartment. A skeptical observer insisted that bees could find the unscented sucrose solution because of its "odor." To demonstrate that such was not the case, I set out a bowl of unscented solution that I had personally prepared and located a short way from any of the double-compartment dishes. During a two-day period, no bees landed and drank from that single dish, even though thousands of bees located and drank unscented sucrose from the double compartment dishes that had an associated odor in the second compartment. No, I do not see how honey bees could find REALLY PURE unscented sucrose solution. That feature makes them the ultimate generalist forager and means that we could increase pollination efficiency by pumping scented sucrose (scent of the crop we wanted bees to visit) into colonies -- if only bee researchers could "get off the dime" and investigate the best means to do so. In fact, that is exactly what Russian workers and von Frisch accomplished in the late 1930s and early 1940s. See the following for a summary of some of von Frisch's results on that score: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/frisch1943.htm When can we expect bee researchers to heed the evidence and begin to investigate the importance of wind and odors in honey bee foraging patterns? I hope soon -- for the good of the beekeeping community. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ***************************************************** * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) ***************************************************** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:54:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for bee equipment In-Reply-To: <007e01c3a2e1$670f40a0$0a00000a@DaveCushman> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dave wrote: >I have also considered... implanting a harmonic radar reflector ... this would scan a >considerable distance within line of sight from the roof of a land rover or similar. Dave's system will work, except that harmonic radar bounces off of wire fences, cars, etc. I know, we have 3 harmonic systems. It also simply give a ping, does not I.D. the owner of the hive. If more than one beekeeper uses harmonics, it gets tricky trying to determine who's who. We have an active RFID that transits over a 100 yards,and one of our associates has a small tag that is cheap and readable from a plane. Its a bit early for mass production and sales, but its coming. First step, I.D. the equipment. Second step, provide location and I.D. at a distance. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:45:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for bee equipment In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031104074940.03f1bdd8@pop3.wcoil.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tim has lots of good points, and I mostly agree. Here's my response Tim said: > >I think it this kind of technology will be pretty slow in catching on< Yes, its only cost effective for large operations, or as a pricey toy for hobbiests. >the cost of readers and software will prohibit use.< Absolutely, current reader/writers are pricey. But a hand-held barcode reader is on the way for early 2004, about $500. >It unfortunately does little to discourage vandalism and theft. < Can't help vandalism. I'm looking for the guys that steal truckloads of bees in California. > cheap enough... the thief... can remove the devices or use the reader to identify hives not protected by the device. < Right know, readers are too expensive for the thief -- we'd provide them to folks like Joe Traynor for hive recovery. In 2 years, tags will hopefully be so cheap (5 cents), everything wears them. > And I wouldn't count on law enforcement agencies to have a reader, or for bee inspectors to have one.< Well, the bee associations may have to provide them, or a beekeeper who lost a truckload (60+ colonies) (as happens in California) >programs that are still fortunate enough to exist are only doing so by a >narrow margin)< I agree - its up to the beekeepers and beekeeping associations, the government is not doing this for you. >Hopefully, won't fall into ...trap as pet ID chips. different chips, different readers< We're going with the chips that the biggest retailer in the world will use (the contracts are already in place). That retailer in turn will require all vendors to use the same chip. Industry is standardizing, since it wants to replace bar codes across the board. There will more more than 1 RFID, but competing readers can already read the tag that we provide. >several different locations on the animal to put them in.< Unlike pit tags with inches of range, these tags are readable 10-12 ft away. Location on the marked item is of little concern. These are NOT pit tags. They are read/re-writable, far cheaper, lighter, with a relatively long standoff distance for reading. They can be locked by the original reader/writer, so that the thief can't alter the I.D. >Never the less it would be an interesting inventory tracking system. Scan >supers as they are placed on hives, and scan and record weight when they >return full of honey. < You may have missed a point, we're can provide an automatic scale system coupled to a reader for big honey processors. You won't have to record anything. >If they can tie it into a hand held computer with voice recognition, I might be able to keep a useful set of notes one day. < A reader in the form of a PCMCIA card will be available in a few months. Pop it into a small computer, add voice recognition software, and you're there (assuming you simplify voice commands for reliability, and that we can provide the software to integrate). Our challenge will be to provide the software that integrates beekeeping inventory and management needs, and that can make sense of all of the information. However, in theory, if you start with an RFID tag on the cage of the queen that you receive, and if you mount a reader on a truck, you may be able to get much of the needed data without taking notes. A chip on the fence post I.D.s the yard, chips on the boxes track them from the day made to the day discarded. The readers can read multiple tags at one time. Driving thru a bee yard would inventory everything in it, and a GPS would locate the items (where in the world at that time). Another read as you leave would inventory everything NOW in the yard and on the truck. A reader at the honey house would monitor everything coming in or going out. Trick is to get it affordable, and the big retailers will do that for us. >For now though I'm considering a good branding iron, and possibly even branding the top bars, bottom boards, tops, etc.< Well, using your own arguement, the first thing the thief will do is throw away or cover the brands. The thief can't SEE the RFID chips, if they are embedded. Having said that, Tim obviously spent time thinking this through, and that's good. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:11:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Really raw honey - "organic" label In-Reply-To: <002901c3a2e7$0991c8c0$5da59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Just because a farmer puts up a cardboard sign that > says [...] "organic" does not make it so! There is something I don not understand. I am not really familiar with US laws and by-laws about "organic" but I though one has to be certified "organic" by an independant certifying company (itself recognized and authorized to deliver the certification by the US FDA) to write "organic" on his labels. Can really everyone write it without consequences ? Hervé ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:02:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags In-Reply-To: <004701c3a2b7$0becf7a0$0a00000a@DaveCushman> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dave wrote: >Oh! do I wish I was 20 years old... This is the way forward...but we can only deal with the information >in the light of current knowledge about bees and their ways. Don't give up on us yet! I'm pushing retirement age, but too stubborn to quit now. I've worked for 30 years, trying to get to this point With major retailers pushing the technology, its going to happen. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:02:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 2 Nov 2003 to 3 Nov 2003 (#2003-303) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin Dartington wrote: "My question is still - if u spray bees on combs, u only spray their backs. Some Varroa also stick to bees' undersides - yes? Do those varroa also get sufficiently wet?" There is splash effect. How effective it is getting to varroa on bellies is up for debate. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:59:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Really raw honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Your list makes sense but TOTALLY UNINFORCABLE. The whole concept is on the > honor system. > > The organic food business which Rodale started has climbed from a small > farmer doing things correctly to a huge industry (9 billion last year) with > no policing using the organic food label. > > Just because a farmer puts up a cardboard sign that says "no sprays" or > "organic" does not make it so! > > Bob > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Not entirely accurate. In order to qualify for "organic" status (at least in Vermont), one needs to register with a certification organization, such as NOFA (Northeast Organic Farmer's Association). Rigid guidelines are followed, and my understanding is that farm inspections are known to happen. Bob is correct about the honor system, but that applies to ALL who engage in any business enterprise. If I, as a sign maker, claim to use a particular material, and charge a premium price for it, I'd better make damn sure I do as I claim. If anyone finds out otherwise, my business integrity AND reputation is in the dumpster. This is basic business ethics, plain and simple. It also seems to me that, similar to organic certification organizations out there, there exists a service niche for purity testing of food products. In the context of honey, a number of contaminants could be screened, ranging from the obvious (apistan/coumaphos, to environmental toxins such as ethylene glycol, pesticides, etc. Honey producers could voluntarily submit a cross section of their product for testing, and recieve a report/certification. Obviously, guidelines would need to be in place to avoid "cherry picking" of one's product for testing. In short, just because there is not currently a system in place to verify purity or methods does not mean that it cannot be done. Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:01:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Really raw honey - "organic" label MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herve asks: Can really everyone write it without consequences ? To use the word certified in front of organic then of course their needs to be a agency providing the certification. The Historic River Market in Kansas City which I do would allow the sign "organic" this year but for next year only those which have been certified organic by an agency can put up a sign saying organic. All others can however display a sign saying no sprays and produced by organic methods (and save the $270 U.S., inspections and pesky rules and most important giving a percentage of their profits to the certification agency and access to your books.) Certified organic as far as produce is concerned means your farm is inspected once a year for obvious use of pesticides and herbicides. Three of my friends farms are "certified organic". I have got a bee location on a 80 acre "certified organic farm". I have not yet talked to a beekeeper which is selling "organic honey" yet but have read in ABJ that three packers are now certified to pack and sell organic honey. Jose Faraldo is shipping honey under the "organic label "all over the world from Brazil. He says he is certified by (ifoam/ibd) He also says ALL his honey is filtered & homogenized under "organic honey" in both the ABJ ad and at his website. You can see his add on page 907 of this months American Bee Journal (Nov.2003). or go to his web site: http://www.arealeira.com.br At the website he does not explain what ifoam/ibd stands for or says one word about his organic honey other than he has "organic" honey for sale. By running the ad in ABJ I assume he can ship honey under the "organic" label into the U.S. but not sure. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 23:07:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Kovacs Subject: Re: Really raw honey - "organic" label MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone on this thread. I've been reading this one sorta. I see some things that make me wonder just how stupid the consumer really is. I can definitly see doing a cold pack especially if you are a small or hobbiest producer. I have 2 colonies with plans for more. I like honey as much as anyone else, maybe even less. I don't consume vast quantities of it. The idea of bottling honey right out of the extractor and labeling it "organic" is bizarre. If you want RAW honey then buy comb honey. Raw honey as I am reading it( from this thread)is basically disgusting and I would never tell my few customers to purchase it. My suggestion for a clean definition of "raw" honey is to run your honey out of the extractor, unheated and only filter it through the first filter from one of those double stainless steel filters that you can buy from the supply houses. You will get grains of pollen and tiny tiny pieces of wax in it.( I personally do not want to eat a wax moth crysilace in my honey.) Yes it will crystilize faster , but then all honey will do that at some point. I'm going to save this thread for my 4H kids so they can see how wierd it can get. As far as "Organic" ---honey is by its nature "Organic". Again stupid consumers OR uninformed/ ignorant consumers. All we can do is educate them the best way we can. Our shot is at the farmshows and fairs that we sell at or display. Theres no way we can prevent a farmer or gardener from using a pesticide or chemical on their plants. With that thought in mind theres no way ,unless you test, that you can know for sure that your honey is "organic" and "chemical/pesticide" free. Look at the honey that is tainted from China????? Enough rambling, Good Night All Greg Kovacs :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 00:52:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard Kogan Subject: Richard Taylor I meet Richard Taylor only once in person but that was long after I met him in print in the Joy of Beekeeping and his How To Do It book. He was truly an inspiration and a model for all of us. I will mourn his passing by rededicating myself to the humane art of beekeeping. Howard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:28:30 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Phacelia. In-Reply-To: <002f01c3a0c5$2fd07d20$ed3ab08e@User> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <002f01c3a0c5$2fd07d20$ed3ab08e@User>, al picketts writes >Phacelia tenacetifolia is better for bee forage and soil >improvement growing quite tall (3 feet) while Phacelia campanularia is short >(1 foot). This explains why the seed I got from Germany grew very lush, >tall, bee-attractive and lots of honey while the seed I got from Man. was >short, sparce, not very bee-attractive and not much honey. The bloom time >for the German Phacelia was a loooong time (~8 wks) but the other was about >10 days. Needless to say I would try to find the lush variety if I were to >grow it again. Not actually the case in my experience. The same batch of seed of Phacelia tancetifolia (aka Tansy leafed Phacelia) can produce this range of results. I am involved in the planting of this for bee forage with several farmers on set-aside land here in Scotland. The growth of the pattern of the crop depends on the soil conditions at planting time. Dry soil produces poor germination and thin spindly growth. This in turn gives rise to small and few flowering heads, thus a short blooming time. A similarly dismal return can occur if the conditions are cold and wet. However, if there is plentiful moisture, and soil temperatures are adequate (I don't know the figures) then germination is rapid, growth is lush, and flowering is relatively abundant and prolonged, although I would suggest more like four weeks than eight. Drilling to flowering is about 7 weeks in this country. The whole field is alive with insects at flowering time and you hear the noise of bees before you see them. Very beneficial to all sorts of nectar loving insects, and teems with honeybees, bumble bees, and butterflies. Good nectar yielder most years, the honey being very white, and with a mild floral perfume and mild flavour. If you are in the UK seed is available from agricultural merchants, around GBP 8 per Kg. For soil improvement a rate of 6 to 12 Kg per hectare is recommended, but if mainly for nectar then 3 Kg is plenty. This gives better plant spacing and more branching, hence a longer period of flower. Unofficial seed sources are available at lower prices. N.America pricing I have no idea of. We generally charge the farmers for the seed at cost, and as we source it through unofficial channels we can usually offer it at around GBP 3.00 Kg. The crop puts a lot of dry matter into the soil, and the tap root is long and strong so it breaks up hard pan lower down. Farmers are, in general, glad to try it and find the lower seed cost to be attractive. A good growth of this stuff can yield, I am told, enough seed to replant 1000 times the area harvested. 'Topping' the crop before completion of flowering can sometimes give rise to a second flowering about a month later. Pollen is very distinctive so you can tell if the bees are working this crop. It is an inky dark navy purple, but can look very dark blue, or even black, in certain light conditions. Hope this helps Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:43:20 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for bee equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry & all > Dave's system will work, except that harmonic radar bounces off of wire > fences, cars, etc. Are you saying that there are parts of cars or wire fences that resonate at 20 GHz or are we talking 'rusty bolt effect'? I have not tried it, but I have considered it... and I was rather hoping that spurious returns would be very few and far between. My reason for choosing 10 Ghz for transmit is that I have home built equipment (made out of WWII radar parts) and the requisite licence to use it. IFF type identification would not be required in my case as the hives and parts are all heavily and obviously branded. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 07:32:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Really raw honey - "organic" label MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All Todd's post made me think that maybe I should explain "organic" as used for produce and fruit for the list to understand a bit about organic in general. I said: (and save the $270 U.S., inspections and pesky rules and most important giving a percentage of their profits to the certification agency and access to your books.) The $270 fee is yearly and was for the year 2003 and has climbed from year to year and is the fee our Missouri agency charges. Fees could be lower or higher in other areas. They do not certify honey as organic as they feel the area over which the bees forage can not be controlled . Most (if not all ) of the people which are small and are certified organic in our area do their best to follow the rules which would produce a truly organic product. The certified organic friends of mine have got a big problem with "freeloaders" which use the organic name and say their produce has not been sprayed, used herbicides and commercial fertilizer in order to get a higher price . They also doubt produce from large farming corporations is truly organic (but only the opinion expressed to me). I grew an organic orchard for thirteen years but had to give up organic as the finnished product would not compete with the 14 sprays per year waxed & polished apples of the large apple orchards. Borers also got into my trees and killed many trees. The only way to kill borers back then in a organic orchard was with a piece of stiff wire jambed into the borer hole. I now spray with with a half the label dose of insecticide one to a high of three times a year and tell the customer the type of spray and the amount of times I spray. Some walk away and some buy. YES A HALF DOSE MOST TIMES OF AN INSECTICIDE WILL WORK AS GOOD AS THE RECOMMENDED LABEL DOSE! It is not illegal or against label to use less of a product only illegal when you raise the dose above the reommended amount. I could produce apples by organic method but only for myself as the investment in time would mean I would need to charge about four times the amount of the apples of the large orchards. By using an IPM method I sold all the fruit my orchard produced this year through local markets at the same price at times higher than the large orchards. Bob Ps. Will be back on line next week! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:00:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Richard Taylor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few notes of Louis Armstrong and you recognize him right away. Emerson had a very recognizable cadence to his writings. A Picasso painting also easily stands out in a crowd. While I never met Richard Taylor in person the lilt to his written words have the same effect...you can quickly recognize the man hearing the message. I dare to call it a universal message of "slow down and listen to the world all around." He helped us see beyond the ordinary. I will miss his beat. He was an individual that tapped into our consciousness. I grew wistful reading anything he wrote. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:19:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Phacelia. In-Reply-To: <4xITxSB+KMq$EwQM@denrosa.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray McGregor wrote: > In article <002f01c3a0c5$2fd07d20$ed3ab08e@User>, al picketts > writes > >> Phacelia tenacetifolia is better for bee forage and soil >> improvement growing quite tall (3 feet) while Phacelia campanularia is >> short >> (1 foot). This explains why the seed I got from Germany grew very lush, >> tall, bee-attractive and lots of honey while the seed I got from Man. was >> short, sparce, not very bee-attractive and not much honey. > > Not actually the case in my experience. The same batch of seed of > Phacelia tancetifolia (aka Tansy leafed Phacelia) can produce this > range of results. > > I am involved in the planting of this for bee forage with several > farmers on set-aside land here in Scotland. Just to add to Murray's observations on the differences you can get from the same seed, here is a good article on Phacelia tancetifolia http://www.smallfarmsuccess.info/Phacelia_farmer_version.pdf Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:09:29 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Dance maneuver information Adiran said: > Jim wrote that searching bees in his example could find > UNSCENTED sugar solution... Yes, I did. It was prepared with care. Bottled sucrose was used. You can buy it at the chemistry supply store. Such preparations are odor-free. So much for "food odor". > Jim worked in a field of "freshly-cut hay stubble." Wow! > What an incredible mix of potential odors that can cling > to the hairs of foraging bees. But any odor that might be produced by one area of the field would also be produced by many others. The odors would be highly similar, if not identical from all points. I repeated the tests under different wind directions, and the bees were equally able to find my sugar dish when it was "upwind", "downwind", and in "no wind". So much for "locality odor". This was one 4-inch dish in a 500 acre field, cut at a very low height by my neighbor the dairy farmer, with no remaining blooms of any sort. If I had done the tests before the hay was bailed and removed, it would have literally been "a needle in a haystack". As the hay had been removed to his hay barn, it was a featureless and very large homogeneous nearly flat planar surface. By "homogeneous", I mean consistent in both visual appearance and odor potential. At no point did I approach the tree lines or fence lines closer than a few hundred feet. I avoided giving the bees any "clues". The stand for the dish was a brand-new camouflaged folding camp stool, and I sat cross-legged in camouflage BDUs. Woodland cammo blends in well with a hay field. An acre is 43,560 square feet, and the dish was 4 inches in diameter, so the "target" was about 4 square inches in an area of 3,136,320,000 square inches (yes, that is over 3 BILLION square inches). > With super care, a pure sucrose solution yields zero recruits... I object to the presentation of the above claim as fact. It remains to be proven. Evidence at hand contradicts it. Until it is proven, it will remain an extraordinary claim. As I have pointed out before, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Claims which are asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. > When can we expect bee researchers to heed the evidence... When the experimental results can be repeated by an impartial (or even hostile) party. Perhaps part of the problem here is that the results cited are "published" only on a website, in a section called "Point Of View", along with a wide range of opinions from the extreme fringes of beekeeping, in net effect comprising a "Gilligan's Island of science". The entire group of "views" can thus be dismissed as "unpublished", as they have attempted to avoid the peer review process. > I appreciate the opportunity to respond to Jim Fischer's > solid adherence to the dance language hypothesis This is yet another example of how difficult it is to engage in a calm and dispassionate evaluation of evidence in regard to foraging mechanisms, and trying to sort out the facts in support of "dance", "odor", "locality odor", and (my favorite!) mental telepathy. I am labeled a "dance language supporter" merely because I point out the lack of an explanation of the specific mechanics of the "odor" hypothesis. I have been reduced to a strawman. I "support" nothing. I am a physicist by trade. We have to get up early every morning and read the pre-prints that have arrived via e-mail over night just to figure out what we agree with TODAY. :) Adrian's goal appears to be not to persuade but to create an impression that there are two sides to the question without actually having to supply one of them. In fact, there are multiple possible alternative explanations with roughly equal credibility to "odor". I listed a few above. jim (April, 1935: The "Comet" makes its debut. It runs between Boston and Providence at 109 mph. December, 2000: The "Acela" debuts, making the BOS-WASH run at 150 mph. Outside the NE corridor, trains can go 80 mph max. Progress?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 08:51:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for bee equipment In-Reply-To: <006f01c3a382$5659af60$0a00000a@DaveCushman> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:43 AM 11/5/2003 -0000, you wrote: 20 GHz will give you good range - probably 1/2 mile or more. And the higher the frequency, the shorter the antennae on the diode. As per bounce back -- I'm not the electronics guy, but chain link fences are terrible and cars, even worse. With the cars, its probably triggering off diodes in the car's electronics, and producing spurious signals -- try your system near a computer some day, you will get real noise If you are the only one using harmonic radar, then you don't need I.D. codes. More than one beekeeper, and we've got a problem. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 10:59:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Hypericum honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A beekeeper gave me a jar of Hypericum honey at the Florida State Beekeepers meeting. This is from Ecuador and the source is about 100 ha of flowers apparently grown commercially known as St. John's Wort. Given the claims about St. John's Wort a honey predominantly from this source might be the source of a marketing coup or not. Another beekeeper told me he'd seen honey bees all over Hypericum, but no honey. Any ideas, experiences? Malcolm T. Sanford Professor Emeritus, University of Florida http://beeactor.vze.com 352-336-9744 or 392-1801 x 150 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 08:31:50 -0800 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)" Subject: Job announcement -- NAPPC coordinator (Washington, D.C) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This job has just been announced. All the contact details for applicants= are below. Promote and Organize Protection Activities on Behalf of Pollinators The North American Pollinator Protection Campaign (NAPPC) is a unique= collaboration of individuals from over 70 academic, environmental,= government and business organizations from throughout the continent= working to increase awareness and protection for the pollinating species= of North America. NAPPC is a project coordinated by the Coevolution Institute (CoE), a= non-profit organization based in San Francisco, California. The NAPPC= Coordinator position will report to CoE, but will be based in Washington,= DC, where many of NAPPC=92s collaborating organizations are located. More= information on NAPPC can be found at www.nappc.org. Please send resume and cover letter highlighting your unique qualifications= for the NAPPC Coordinator position to: Laurie Davies Adams, Executive Director Coevolution Institute 423 Washington St, 4th Floor San Francisco, CA 94111 NAPPC Coordinator Position Description The NAPPC Coordinator will have a background in environmental science or= environmental policy. The Coordinator will be familiar with current and= potential participant organizations, will have strong organizational= capabilities and communication skills, and will be able to represent NAPPC= issues. Experience working with diverse partners and collaborations is= essential. The Coordinator will: Liaise with Working Committees Facilitate communication among NAPPC partners Help connect NAPPC partners with non-financial resources Travel extensively Coordinate NAPPC meetings Assist with NAPPC external communications Coordinate NAPPC website content Assist with evaluation of NAPPC activities Assist with NAPPC fund-raising Methodology/Salary/Funding/Budget/Schedule This is a full-time position based in the Washington, D.C. area with a= salary range from $45,000 to $55,000, with an additional amount for= benefits, overhead and travel to $100,000 per year. After an initial= 3-month trial period, the contract will continue for one year. Subsequent= renewals are dependent upon funding. Research/Management Implications The NAPPC Coordinator will help facilitate the 2003-2004 NAPPC= Implementation Plan, which lays the groundwork for the conservation of= North American pollinator species. The Coordinator will also increase= NAPPC interaction with global initiatives regarding pollinators. Evaluation Measured outcomes for the Coordinator position will include: Increased and sustained participation of NAPPC partners. Completion of the NAPPC 2003-2004 Implementation Plan. Increased participation of Committees and Task Forces, as well as their= expansion. Knowledge, Skills, and Other Characteristics General knowledge of environmental science and policy. Strong leadership and organizational skills. Strong communication skills, both written and verbal. Skill in report development. Skill in establishing and developing working networks. Excellent teamwork skills and experience. Fluency in Spanish strongly preferred. Minimum Training and Experience Master=92s degree or Bachelor=92s plus equivalent experience in the= ecological sciences, environmental policy, conservation or related field. Three years of related experience building and coordinating coalitions of= diverse interests. Working knowledge of MS Office applications. Other Qualifications Valid passport and driver=92s license. Willingness to travel extensively. Must be able to rent a car from commercial rental car agencies. Position Location: Washington, DC Salary Range: $45,000-$55,000 Send applications to: Attention: Laurie Davies Adams, Executive Director Coevolution Institute 423 Washington St, 4th Floor San Francisco, CA 94111 Or by email to: lda@coevolution.org Application Due by: December 1, 2003 ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Conservation Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at www.xerces.org ______________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 22:34:18 +0100 Reply-To: Derek Steed Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Derek Steed Subject: Re: Phacelia. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can get phacelia from the German firm http://www.wildacker.de at Euro 5,40/kg from 10kg + 7% VAT + post Euro 7. The E-mail is wildacker.de.The variety is phacelia Stala described as bee pasture. regards Derek Steed :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:26:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: White sand and black fiber I work with a non-computing beekeeper that mentioned that I could do some research for him. He asked my thoughts on him moving his bees for the winter about 2 hours south of where we are at for the warmer air but more so for placement on white sand. His thoughts were that he had been down there on cool spring days and these locations were warmer than others that were not on sand in the same Geography. My thinking is that white reflects the light spectrum and does not absorb heat, he would be better putting them on something dark colored. On the other hand, maybe the sand reflects more light onto the hive? Any colorful thoughts? Having started our discussion on colors, he wondered aloud if the black plastic or landscape cloth placed underneath hives would diminish hive beetle populations. I did not say anything but recall that the beetles travel quite a distance if needed, but I do not know. It also seems that the plastic or cloth would be susceptible to injury. Any feedback on this? Thank you, Joe :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:30:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: Honey or Syrup pumps I am thinking about getting a large tank for corn syrup this winter. I'll need a pump to move syrup. What makes a honey/syrup pump good for that task? Would an agricultural pump for moving water do the job? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:04:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Really raw honey - "organic" label In-Reply-To: <003e01c3a3a1$509351c0$2ea59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > A HALF DOSE MOST TIMES OF AN INSECTICIDE WILL WORK AS GOOD AS THE RECOMMENDED LABEL DOSE! > > It is not illegal or against label to use less of a product only illegal when you raise the dose above the recommended amount. It might not be illegal, but it is definitely bad practice. This is a major contributor to the acceleration of resistance. You may elect not to treat but if you treat at all, FOLLOW THE LABEL! Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:51:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Denise Hubler Subject: Re: hypericum honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a hypericum plant that blooms profusely. I have never seen a honeybee on it, but the bumbles seem to love it. Denise Luna Apiaries KY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:34:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Kovacs Subject: Re: Hypericum honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Malcolm, I grow St. Johns Wort and it has a yellow flower 3-4 inches across. I got out my "Honey Plants of North America" and it reads that --there are 31 species of hypericum and they are necterless. They do produce pollen and bees gather this pollen in the morning. It looks like "hypericum honey" is just a scam. Take Care Greg :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:46:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Kovacs Subject: Re: Helicopters and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, I will give you this piece of bee reaction that my wife has observed. My colonies in the yard get really agitated when the emergency vehicles go by with there sirens blasting away. I also looked at this really good spot to possibly put a colony or 2 , but thought against it because it was about 30' from an active railroad line. My concern was how the rumbling, shaking, and noise would affect them. I felt they would get agitated too easily and stay that way. To try it out, thump on your hive the same way the thumping from the choper blades would be doing to your hives from the compressed shoch wave hitting them. Logic says that they may get agitated and stay nasty. This is only a hypothesis based on insufficient data. I hope that this helps you in some way. Greg :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 09:45:49 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Hypericum honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Greg Kovacs" " "Honey Plants of North America" and it reads that --there are 31 > species of hypericum and they are necterless. They do produce pollen and > bees gather this pollen in the morning. It looks like "hypericum honey" > is just a scam." Eva Crane , Comprehensive Survey of Honey, 1975 (608 page book - our best ref in UK) lists only phacelia tanacetifolia Bentham , but puts it in categories 5 & 6, 5=201 to 500 kilograms of honey per hectare, 6 = over 500 (highest category). Says it is an annual, native to California, introduced to UK in 832, rapid gowth and high nectar yield, sown for honey crop in Russia and neighboring countries, amber honey , flows freely, granualates quickly. Have those plant hybridisers being doing their worst with the current varieties? Perhaps we should buy Russian seed? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 10:20:27 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for bee equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry & all > As per bounce back -- I'm not the electronics guy, but chain link fences > are terrible and cars, even worse. Yes, I can see that chain link fences would be a problem... I had not considered diodes in vehicle systems (my van is so old only has diodes in it's alternator, there is not even a radio set in it). This is largly acedemic anyway as I am unliky ever to be fit enough to pursue it. But ideas take no physical effort :-) I reckoned that nobody else would be using 10 GHz transmit/20 GHz recieve. I'm not the only beekeeping radio ham in my area, but I think I am the only one that uses 10 GHz. Perhaps there will be a flood of protests that many US beekeepers are also 10 GHZ users? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 09:15:15 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My question was - if u spray bees on combs, u only spray their backs. > Some Varroa also stick to bees' undersides - yes? Do those varroa also get > sufficiently wet? From: "Mike" There is splash effect. How effective it is getting to varroa on bellies is up for debate." I do not understand splash effect. If bees are sprayed on brood combs (and it is the nurses that carry most of the phoretic bees, yes?) then the spray will mostly disappear into open cells - splash from the cell walls will be minimal. And SOE entering open cells will dilute the brood food - as larvae have blind guts and no way to pee, they could end up with a full gut containing less food than normal - so there seems risk we could have a generation of weak bees. SOE applied in late autumn might splash better from the sealed honey which then fills the brood area - but waiting to treat then would not avoid the winter bees being infected by viruses due to high varroa levels in September. SOE still looks great - non-poisonous - no residues - cheap - but finding a reliable method (for a single annual application - having to do 3 applications looks like hard work, and lot's of chance of not finishing all 3 go's properly) looks more difficult. If I could get some SOE here in UK I would like to try adapting Allen's method for powdered sugar (shake bees off into a cardboard box, add powder, shake box, let bees fly back). Adaption for SOE might be: shake bees off each frame into tray containing 2 inches depth of SOE solution with wire tray lying on bottom, after 2 seconds lift tray and tip soaked bees on a sloping board at hive entrance, and shake next frame. This could only be done in warm dry weather, so the bees dry off quickly and do not chill. Obvious defect is that if done at midday, it will miss many foragers - if done in evening, bees may not recover before nightfall. Alternative could be to dump soaked bees into a super with a wire screen underneath with some open holes - place on top of hive, so heat rising from brood saves soaked bees from chilling before they recover and go back down thru the holes. Would the queen be damaged by any of this? Any thoughts anyone? I am keen to make progress on this one. No other alternative to strips appeals to me - great to keep beekeeping really safe and simple for beekeepers from age 12 to 96 - and for the 'elderly confused' (like me) in the middle. Robin Dartington '24-hive UK hobbyist who experiments and promotes new methods to recreational beekeepers' :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:47:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Helicopters and bees In-Reply-To: <20031106.004627.-411851.1.kb3ckd@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg Kovacs wrote: > Bill, > My concern was how the > rumbling, shaking, and noise would affect them. I felt they would get > agitated too easily and stay that way. To try it out, thump on your hive > the same way the thumping from the choper blades would be doing to your > hives from the compressed shoch wave hitting them. Logic says that they > may get agitated and stay nasty. This is only a hypothesis based on > insufficient data. I hope that this helps you in some way. This may be a valid argument against having a helo in the area. Question for all- Is this kind of disruption really enough to set back the colonies for the day or at least half a day? Also, would it increase aggression? Or are we really talking about just a slight bump in the road and little impact? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 14:18:10 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Hypericum honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies, apologies - my last post mixed up hypericum and phacelia - quite meaningless - hypericum not mentioned by Eva Crane as a honey plant - mea culpa - sorry. Robin Daritington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 07:24:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My question was - if u spray bees on combs, u only spray their backs. >> Some Varroa also stick to bees' undersides - yes? Do those varroa >> also get sufficiently wet? > From: "Mike" There is splash effect. How effective it is getting to > varroa on bellies is up for debate." No debate. The work has been done, observations made, and it is just a matter of going to the horse's mouth: consulting those who have used the product or looking it up somewhere. It occured to me to ask Google, ""Sucrose Octanoate" bees", and Google came up with a number of hits, including this: http://apis.wsu.edu/apinotes.html . The page contains, among other things, this statement: "Thorough spray coverage of adult honey bees on frames is essential for good control of the pest. Remove frames with adhering bees and spray both sides." At http://www.bmi.net/roseguy/pnw/newpest.html, I came up with this: "AVA Chemical Ventures has applied for registration of sucrose octanoate esters, a synthetic based on Nicotiana. Natural sucrose esters are difficult and expensive to extract from plants, but AVA developed an easier and less expensive process for synthesizing the esters. The esthers are manufactured from sucrose and a caprilic fatty acid ester derived from edible oils such as coconut or palm. Sucrose octanoate de-waxes the outer coating of soft-bodied insects, such as whiteflies, aphids, and thrips, causing them to lose water and shrivel. (Sounds like the same action as fatty acids of potassium salts, commonly known as insecticidal soap.) Hard-bodied beneficial insects are not harmed, although I assume that soft-bodied beneficials and larvae would damaged. Since sucrose fatty acid esters are commonly consumed as food or food components (food emulsifiers and fruit coatings), the EPA is reviewing a petition from AVA for exemption from residue tolerance requirements (in short: speeding up the approval process)." I tired before I ran through all the references -- I have heard enough to think SOE has limited usefulness compared to other cheap alternatives -- but there is lots of info out there, if we look. Bob may add some details from his experience, and I am sure he can answer this question (I thought he had, but I can't find the ref -- maybe it is on my laptop machine since I've been on the road?), but I think he is gone for a few days. In the meantime, and subject to more input, I'll add, for now, that my understanding is that the bees are quite drenched and that the solution completely wets them almost like a soap solution. Remember, though, that I am just repeating what I think I heard. I also think I heard that, after spraying, the bees look pretty bad, but clean themselves up in a short while and return to normal. I also, understand that the ideal time for treatment is when there is little or no brood. That takes care of the concerns about brood, but -- if we think about it --what is the weather likely to be when the brood rearing is cut back to nil? There are likely to be concerns about chilling bees, if care is not taken. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 09:24:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for bee equipment In-Reply-To: <002201c3a44f$eb708f60$0a00000a@DaveCushman> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We've pushed bees up to 20 GHz with no apparent effect. Riley in England uses 8/16 Ghz. I've got a guy that can build tiny fractal antennae and has plated one on the back of a live bee with no harm. Fun stuff, but not particularly useful for bee management. Jerry P.S. As per being fit enough, why do you think I keep trying to find ways to work bees without lifting so many boxes? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 11:05:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for bee equipment In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20031106092457.01d57478@selway.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It would be very useful for finding queens in research projects. Like verifying queen without opening hive. Labeeman russianbreeder.com Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > >I've got a guy that can build tiny fractal antennae and has plated one on >the back of a live bee with no harm. Fun stuff, but not particularly >useful for bee management. > > > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 11:19:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for beeequipment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> labeeman@COX-INTERNET.COM 11/6/03 11:05:15 AM >>> >It would be very useful for finding queens in research projects. Like >verifying queen without >opening hive. It might verify that you had the chip/tag/antenna in the hive, but would it verify that the queen was alive? Could she be dead on the bottom board and a supercedure queen up there laying in her place? How reliable would it be? (I suppose that if she died, the disposal bees would probably toss out her carcass. Might work.) Layne Westover, College Station, Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 17:26:22 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for bee equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry & all > I've got a guy that can build tiny fractal antennae and has plated one on > the back of a live bee with no harm. Fun stuff, but not particularly > useful for bee management. Saves me the bother of designing one... I reckon that this would develop into a queen finding device. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:46:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From http://pbesa.ucdavis.edu/abs.pdf SUCROSE OCTANOATE AS AN ALTERNATIVE COMPOUND FOR CONTROL OF VARROA DESTRUCTOR ON HONEY BEES M. A. Gardner, J. P. Strange, and W. S. Sheppard Department of Entomology, Washington State University, Food Science and Human Nutrition Building 252, Pullman, WA 99164-6382, USA The parasitic mite Varroa destructor (Anderson & Trueman) is the greatest problem facing managed honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies in the United States. Currently only two treatments are approved for Varroa destructor control, fluvalinate, a synthetic pyrethroid, and coumaphos, an organophosphate. Concerns about resistance development and pesticide residues in hive products highlight the need to consider alternative classes of Varroa mite control agents. We report here the results of experiments testing sucrose octanoate as an alternative control of Varroa destructor. Sucrose octanoate is a sugar ester, a class of compounds that have previously been used for greenhouse whitefly and pear psylla control. Sucrose octanoate was applied to each frame in a honey bee colony with a pressure sprayer at a concentration of 0.12 percent active ingredient in water. The chemical provided greater than 80 percent control when initial mite levels were less than 2000 per colony, and greater than 50 percent control when colony mite levels were greater than 2000. This was significantly higher than the control treatment of water. Several applications are necessary to obtain adequate control of large infestations. We suggest that sucrose octanoate is a safe and effective compound for Varroa mite control and are currently researching a more efficient means of application. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 15:23:23 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: White sand and black fiber Joe said: > ...[hive] placement on white sand. > ...these locations were warmer than others that > were not on sand in the same Geography. An accurate observation. I lived on the beach in Ft. Lauderdale for a decade, and sand above the high tide mark both heats up quickly, and holds the heat well long after the sun has gone down. > My thinking is that white reflects the light > spectrum and does not absorb heat, "White sand" is not really white. It is kinda brownish. If the sand is dry, it has lots of tiny air pockets between grains of sand, and it seems to me that both the air and the sand is warmed (and stays warm), with the "dead air insulation" holding the heat, and keeping the heat of the gains of sand high. I am ashamed to say that I never bothered to get out some thermocouples and test this, despite uncounted days spent lying on the evidence. :) I can say that if one digs down into the sand, it quickly becomes much less hot, and is more damp. We can from this evidence at least eliminate thermal conductivity between the grains of sand. (All those sand castles my son and I built were productive on multiple levels.) Perhaps the reflection/scattering of the light from the "crystals" better heats the air between the grains, I dunno. On the other hand, the grains of sand could be acting as "brick ovens", keeping the air warm. Maybe both mechanisms are at work. (And on the OTHER hand, I can count to 32 on the fingers of one hand in binary...) Wet sand is clearly always cooler than dry sand, as anyone who has crossed a beach in their bare feet can verify. > he would be better putting them on something dark colored. > On the other hand, maybe the sand reflects more light onto > the hive? Any colorful thoughts? Hmmm... now we need data from one of Hawaii's "black sand beaches" to compare with the data from the white sand beaches. This looks like a job for a trained professional with proper equipment and an assistant. Send me tickets for two to Hawaii, and my wife and I will leave at once to check out this important and hitherto, unexamined phenomenon. :) jim (Who, pondering "light and dark", recalls that Duct Tape is just like "The Force" from "Star Wars". It has a light side, and a dark side, and it holds the entire universe together.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 15:55:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glenn Hile Subject: Feeder I recently followed Jim's advice during our recent break in the cold weather and gave the girls some syrup in their hive top feeders. They did not use up all of the syrup given to them. Will it be okay to leave the syrup in the feeders over the winter? One of the feeder manufacturers recommended leaving the feeder on as an added layer of insulation but I assume he meant empty. Unless the syrup would freeze and crack the feeders I can see no harm in leaving them on. If we would get a warm spell wouldn't having this easy to get to source of food be a benefit? What about the condensation issue since the styrofoam feeders do not ventilate out the top. I do have upper entrances in all hives and screened bottoms. Leaving them on would make feeding in the spring much more convenient also. I am a corn breeder and spring is a busy time. Anything to improve efficiency would be a plus. Glenn :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 16:12:04 -0600 Reply-To: mikes1712@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anne Sayers Subject: FGMO as control for varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I am using FGMO as a control for mites in my hives. I have read Dr. Pedro Rodrigues' articles in The ABJ and I still have a question. I'm in Greenwood,AR. Our weather is similar to Dr. Rodreguez's at Va. Beach except for the humidity. Our question is " should we suspend the fogger treatment of FGMO after the first frost and not resume treatment until we begin the spring population build up for the honey flow?' Anne Sayers mikes1712@earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:57:12 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for beeequipment In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > It might verify that you had the chip/tag/antenna in the hive, > but would it verify that the queen was alive? If these have a range of several feet, how does it differentiate between the queen in every other hive in range? Which leads on to trying to record data (like weight over the automated scales Jerry mentions) against a specific tag. How does it differentiate between all the other tags in range? Another example is if you are recording data on a hive like syrup fed, time spent, treatments used (and perhaps trying to compare it to queen performance for example), how do you know which hive the unit is picking up, and is this the one you are working - and is it picking up the queen in this hive, or the queen in the hive next to you? I guess there must be an answer to this, because the checkout counter must surely have the same problem. Is the magazine being charged for the one in the shopping trolley, or one of those on the stand next to the counter?? Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:05:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Re: Honey or Syrup pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe, Although I have never pumped honey, I worked in the soft drink industry for nearly 10 years and pumped lots of HFCS and Sucrose. Centrifugal pumps will cavatate (spelling) if there is an air leak or a bubble gets into the lines. This used to wreak havoc when pumping syrup to our proportion. We switched to air diaphragm pumps. I don't remember the name off hand but they worked great. When switching syrup tanks air was just pushed through the lines rather than nothing going through the lines. They come in all sizes and even the smallest pump does a great job. Air pressure controls the speed of the pumping. Coleene -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 09:57:46 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Honey or Syrup pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Peristaltic pumps work on honey providing there are no coarse crystals to chew up the crushable pipe. Jam pumps or sludge pumps will also work on honey. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 07:50:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: White sand and black fiber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used to walk barefoot a lot as a young boy. I recall with clarity the shock of walking from sand to pavement on a hot day - from hot to HOT! The darker colored pavement absorbs (and releases) considerably more solar energy than plain sand. Granted there is a density difference between the two, but I'd wager the color is the primary consideration. I remember reading emissivity data (how readily an object gives up heat) on wood stove parts painted with various coatings. What I found interesting about the data was that, overall, color was less of an issue for heat absorption/emission than density. However, all things being equal (dark sand vs. light sand), there should be a noticeable difference in solar gain. That's why those little science class gizmos that spin in the sun actually work. I have also placed my hives on black roll roofing, and noticed how much faster the snow melts in that area as opposed to the surrounding ground. Try laying a piece of black roofing material on the ground for half an hour on a warm day. You'll be amazed at how hot the surface gets. Definitely a solar benefit there, as well as a potential benefit against SHB. Regards, Todd :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 08:30:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Radio Frequency Identification Tags (RFID)for bee equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all > Saves me the bother of designing one... I reckon that this would develop > into a queen finding device. Replying here to my own post.... I should have added that this would need a tenfold increase in frequency... 100 GHz/200 GHz region... The disc on the queen's back would be an etched aluminium foil aerial (antenna) with a chip in the centre that was powered from the incoming RF energy and have stored info as to pedigree that could be read by the search device as well as locating the queen within the hive. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 05:30:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kurt Bower Subject: Re: FGMO as control for varroa mites Anne: You may use FGMO in the fogger anytime the bees are flying. In other words as long as they are not clustered this is an effective time for application of the FGMO fog.I personally have suspended treatment(fogging) until next spring, but if a nice day comes along may consider another application. While this list is tolerant of FGMO discussions they are not necessarily in favor of this type of treatment. Please check out the following link as all of your questions will be readily answered. http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi? action=topics&forum=FGMO&number=11&DaysPrune=30&LastLogin= Best regards, Kurt Bower Julian, NC USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:01:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: RFID tags for queens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In response to Dave's last comment about queen tags: We can do this, but not at a price that's affordable. The reason that we can provide RFIDs relatively cheaply are the enormous size of the orders from giant retailers. We get to take advantage of the technology without having to be able to order 500 million tags. But the miniature tag for the queen is another issue - the RFID part is simple and cheap, the pedigree part is doable, but the fractal antennae that we've been involved with has already had about $200k invested (not simply for use on bees) and still has not been married to the miniature (nano) RFID, and the 100/200 Ghz range may pose problems with the regulatory folks, at least in the U.S. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 08:45:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Russian Breeder Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I heard the other day from a US queen breeder that Bernard Apiaries is no longer distributing the USDA Russian breeder stock, and then I noticed, in his BEE-L post, that Charlie's sig line now contains the URL 'russianbreeder.com'. So, I visited < www.russianbreeder.com > and, according to the counter I was visitor number 10. (Going back just now, I was number 38). Curious, I wrote the lab < http://msa.ars.usda.gov/la/btn/hbb/projects.htm > -- actually I could have written Charlie -- and asked what's up. Tom replied and indicated that raising breeders is difficult, time consuming, and not particularly profitable, and that Bernard Apiaries has decided to focus on honey production and sales, and that, yes, Charlie has taken over the job. To quote Tom's email: >"This last spring Charlie > became the CRADA holder for the production of breeder queens. This > year for the first time, breeder queens for next spring have already > been produced and are being overwintered in colonies they themselves > have produced. Charlie has been one of the three key beekeeper co-operators in the Russian project since inception, and since he has exclusively Russian test stock in his outfit and knows it well, he seems to me to be a very logical choice to raise, select and distribute queens. Let's hope we can get buy them freely up here in Canada next spring. Last I heard, everything is lined up to once again allow large scale queen imports from the mainland USA to Canada next spring, under permit. allen www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:07:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: Hobbyists - How do you clean your Extractors? I am disappointed in the cleanup job I did last season on my extractor. It was new then and now I have two (small) spots of rust on the stainless steel but it's primarily the baskets that obviously weren't clean prior to being put in storage. Obviously, I will want to be more careful DRYing the insides -but - I just did a search of the archives and I see nothing about getting wax off of the baskets. What is the consensus on using commercial carwash sprayers? I remember a carwash owner saying here that this is frowned upon but guess where we cleaned-out the truck after harvest last month? Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 16:18:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Hobbyists - How do you clean your Extractors? In-Reply-To: <200311071907.hA7J5KeB017612@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:07 PM 11/7/2003, you wrote: >It was new then and now I have two (small) spots of rust on the stainless >steel but it's primarily the baskets that obviously weren't clean prior to >being put in storage. I just use an inexpensive electric power washer. It does a really good job in my opinion. There are the odd bits of propolis and wax that are permanently stuck unless scraped or a solvent is used, but it causes no real problems. Are you sure it's rust you are seeing? I frequently get good amounts of propolis stuck on the basket parts. Large pieces I scrape off, small ones get left. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:10:10 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: RFID tags for queens Jerry said: > RFID part is simple and cheap... Agreed. > but the fractal antennae... What is the exact length of this fractal antennae, and what is the exact surface area? (The above is a joke for those who know a little about fractals.) > and the 100/200 Ghz range may pose problems with > the regulatory folks, at least in the U.S. Low-power transmitters don't need much of a license, so as long as one is not trying to track things miles away, I can't see the FCC complaining about a few microwatts of hash in the Ghz range anywhere except near air bases, radio telescopes, etc. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 17:15:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Comb honey Here is the pretty much completed tutorial. If there are any suggestions, please let me know what you think. http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/comb_honey&page=all When you click on a picture, it gets bigger. Then you can scroll down and see a brief comment. This whole process only takes a few weeks to make 40 (average of about 36-38 first grade) comb sections which weigh about a pound and a half each. That is if the hive is fairly strong, and you keep the jars with cappings and water available. The actual labor involved is about 4 hours total, (including fillng the cappings bottles several times) with the last hour having two of my kids to help me put the lids on and take them to the freezer. Again, the profit probably wouldn't be as much as with the Ross Rounds, as the cassettes cost me about 1.30 cents each with shipping, at least where I get them from. But they are very fast to install. Regards Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 22:51:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Russian Breeder Queens I received email from Mr. Charles Harper, Harpers Honey Farm, labeeman@russianbreeder.com, yesterday after inquiring as to price and availability of his Russian Breeder Queens; breeder queens are still $500.00. I have been and still am quite interested in these two lines of bees. The Russian Queens have been through a lot since their first introduction to their island of isolation in the Gulf of Mexico. Several years ago the word was out that Russians were the way to go, but acceptability problems of the new Russian queens quickly dampened any enthuiasiam; and then the bee world slowed down and quietly waited to see what the ARS Folks down in Louisiana were going to do with this promising lineage of bees. During this same time-frame varroa resistance to Apistan and Checkmite became proven and new miticides developed, some slowly and some faster than others gaining FDA approval. But, IMHO the best miticide for both the Varroa and the trachael mite is the natural inherent genetic lines of resistance in the honeybees with a proven genetic resistance over a sustained period of time; this has been IMO done and will hopefully continue. Now my first question is what do we as beekeepers do to assure that once a Russian Queen is successfully introduced to a beekeepers yard that the traits so painfully developed by the ARS folks will not be diminished by local breeding once the new queens or a daughter's queens are introduced to the beeyards of America and the World. What will happen when her Russian daughters openly mate with the resident Italian, Carnolian and other local drones with no genetic SMR resistance? Most of us can only afford to purchase a breeder queen's daughter, most of us have no formal training in honey bee genetics. Should one first develop a yard with genetics from a SMR or NWC or Minn.Hyg. line that would be strong enough so that the drones in that yard would have a very high probability of mating with the virgin Russian Queens? What should one do to maximize developed genetic resistance once the Russians or for that matter once the SMR's or Minn. HYG have arrived? Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::