From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:19:03 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, ADVANCE_FEE_3,AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE9BC48F68 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdC011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0311B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 235535 Lines: 5278 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 12:09:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: FGMO as control for varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > While this list is tolerant of FGMO discussions they are not > necessarily in favor of this type of treatment. FWIW, this list does not have one opinion about any topic. BEE-L has a wide range of participants, ranging from wannabee and new beekeepers to respected editors, authors, research scientists, commercial beekeepers, retired beekeepers, and others interested in bees, including, in fact, Dr. Rodriguez himself. The fogging method of application was first pioneered in California two decades ago and apparently abandoned, but then later proposed on this list when attempts to use wax paper strips with FGMO failed to work as hoped. A number of list members practice FGMO fogging, and report here from time to time. As with any topic, there are some members who feel compelled to challenge the efficacy of FGMO and rigour of FGMO tests. Some are more diplomatic than others, but BEE-L tends to show some scepticism on any claims. IMO, coumaphos use has gotten just as hard a ride (harder!) here as FGMO. > Please check out the following link as all of your questions will be readily answered. > http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi? > action=topics&forum=FGMO&number=11&DaysPrune=30&LastLogin= The URL given previously was broken in the wrap, so, here is a shorter one that will take you into the heart of that forum: http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000181.html I'm not sure they will answer all questions, but there is active discussion on the topic there. Just as here, there seem to be many opinions on that bulletin board (See below). The thing that strikes me, though, is that almost everyone in that discussion seems to be actually measuring -- and actually knows -- their own daily mite fall, on a regular basis. To me that is the very first thing that every beekeeper must do to speak intelligently on the topic -- or to treat his/her bees effectively -- no matter what control method is favoured. I gather Dr. Rodriguez is away in Spain right now, but he is active on that board, and also here on BEE-L when he is around. Since the forum does not seem to cantain an FAQ, I looked around for an FGMO FAQ and found these articles that may be helpful. http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/bmite&mo.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/minoilapp.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/minoiltest.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/minoiltest2.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/graphs.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/abjjan2003.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/fgmo2001report.htm While at the forum, on the thread http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000181.html, you will see the following message from Axtmann posted October 23, 2003 11:32 AM From: Germany. he is an active participant of that forum with 133 previous posts, so I assume he has been watching closely... --- begin quote from the forum -- Go to the following site! http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html I don't trust FGMO!!! If you're using the fogging treatment with oil it's your business but I wouldn't stay on "one leg". There many negative articles about FGMO, in the beginning it might work but after two or tree years the "time of true" will come. Too many beekeepers lost their colonies. The argument this beekeeper didn't follow 100% the instructions is not fair. A good working treatment begins with the method of easy using. Who wants to play with a fogger every 7 days, some beekeeper twice the week, for the whole live??? And if this failed you must have don a mistake with your cord .. It's your fault not the instructor. http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/FGMOBeekeeping/ In 2002 lots of "positive articles" but this year. ..Quiet!! I wonder why?? It's crazy to treat colonies one the week during the whole year and at the end of the year MITES STILL FALLING. There shouldn't be any mite left after 50 treatments! The brood cycle from the honeybee is 21 days, if the treatment would work with a very low result (60%) you can figure out by your self how long it would take to get rid of ALL mites. The reification is not an excuse, this will be possible maybe on one or two hives but not on the whole bee yard. And now they find out there other ingredients necessary in the cord to be MORE successful! Some companies have Thymol in there products. this must be a good stuff, ok lets putt some of that GOOD STUFF in the cord and we might have success too! CRAZY! Instead saying this treatment is not that what beekeepers help, they playing with different methods and using hundreds of beekeepers as test objects. If the tests failed who cares, all testers worked for free and on there one risk. Nobody has the right to complain or will get a refund. --- end quote --- I might also add that at the recent BCHPA meeting in Kelowna B.C., a Provincial Apiarist (and very well-known reseaqrcher) stood up to warn the assembly that a small commercial beekeeper had placed faith in FGMO fogging *without monitoring the results* and had lost almost all hives as a direct result. Another Apiarist from another province also stood up to relate a similar experience. I stood up and pointed out that it might have some usefulness in an IPM scenario, BUT, I also warned that monitoring the before and after is the key. Many reports have shown that FGMO fog alone will not provide adequate control in mant cases. That fact can be confirmed by the assertion by Dr, rodriguez, himseld, in theat same forum, that he is now investigatiing use of thymol in the fog. I personally believe that FGMO can have an application, but just be careful that it is working in YOUR situation. No method is foolproof, and this one is more operator dependant than mant. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:17:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: FGMO as control for varroa mites In-Reply-To: <009f01c3a562$ad53e380$2bb85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > Many reports have shown that FGMO fog alone will not > provide adequate control in many cases. That fact can be confirmed by the > assertion by Dr, rodriguez, himself, in that same forum, that he is now > investigating use of thymol in the fog. Of all the comments about FGMO, Allen has condensed it well in that one paragraph. That has been the statement after every variant of a FGMO application method since the first posts many years ago - We only need to change one more thing. Add the comments from the beekeepers who lost hives and the statements by the Province Experts and you have a consistent message. I have many emails in my files from those who lost hives to FGMO but were afraid to post about their losses for fear of the standard comment- you did not do it right (even under supervision!)- as well as retribution. FGMO does drop mites, but so do many mite dropping treatments that cost less and are easier to apply. The problem with FGMO is that it is a moving target. How can you adequately test a moving target? For it to work properly, you need to use it as a drip. As a strip. As a spray. With a fogger. With a cord. With open mesh floors. With thymol. With... Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 13:23:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Russian breeder queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/11/03 05:11:50 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > what do we as beekeepers do to assure that once a > Russian Queen is successfully introduced to a beekeepers yard that the > traits so painfully developed by the ARS folks will not be diminished by > local breeding once the new queens or a daughter's queens are introduced > to the beeyards of America and the World. What will happen when her > Russian daughters openly mate with the resident Italian, Carnolian and > other local drones with no genetic SMR resistance? If you want to perpetuate the Russian genes I suggest you replace as many local queens as possible with daughters of your purchased queen. Let them mate locally. They can then provide drones to mate with the daughters of the Russian queen you buy next year. The drones will carry only their mother's genes. Keep repeating the process and give spare queens to all your neighbouring beekeepers. If they are any good they will go back to you rather than pay for professionally bred ones. Keep assessing the colonies headed by daughter queens and cull any showing characteristics you don't like. Eventually you may not need to continue annually to purchase a Russian queen as your strain will dominate the area. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 12:30:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Russian breeder queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you want to perpetuate the Russian genes I suggest you replace as > many local queens as possible with daughters of your purchased queen... The worry in this approach is that only one queen -- or a few queens -- would be used to breed an entire neighbourhood of bees. That is a risky approach, especially if that one queen or group of queens has a fatal characteristic that only shows up in the progeny later. Any individual breeder queen may prove to be superior, but it will be one individual, and cannot carry nearly all the characteristics of the many lines of Russian bees in the program. Unless it is an II queen, there is even a chance that it will not produce pure Russian offspring. A few queens purchased at the same time, from the same source may actually be sisters, mated to the same drone pool, and carry little more genetic diversity than just one queen alone. What is often forgotten is that the Russian bees are *not* an homogeneous stock. The stock consists of various lines, each with distinct qualities, and to get a true sampling and be sure of viable populations, a number of different release breeder queens must be obtained. Since different combinations of interbred lines are released each year, a variety of Russian queens should be obtained, over several years, and introduced into your operation and the neighbourhood, as recomended by the previous writer. As I see it, anyhow. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:38:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: FGMO as control for varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anne Sayers wrote: > I am using FGMO as a control for mites in my hives... > Our question is " should we suspend > the fogger treatment of FGMO after the first frost and not resume > treatment until we begin the spring population build up for the honey > flow?' Sorry. We got off on discussing everything except the question asked. I'll try to address it. The answer is that you can fog at any time the bees are not clustered, and I gather many practice fogging weekly whenever the bees are active, regardless of season. Repeated fogging apparently does not harm the bees in any noticeable way. (Clustering is generally considered to take begin when the bees are in an ambient temperature of 55 degrees F or lower, but an good indicator of activity is seeing bees coming and going at the entrance). Since, as we have so strongly pointed out again recently, fogging is not an entirely reliable method of control. Regular and careful monitoring of mite loads, and correct interpretion of results is absolutely essential to prevent loss. Whether sugar shake, ether roll, natural mite drop, alcohol wash, or a 24 hour Apistan or coumaphos drop is used for this purpose, interpretation of the results of the test is a bit of an art. Moreover, how many mites your hive can tolerate is dependant on many factors, including weather, climate, location, breed of bees, nutrition, time of year, etc. etc. Most of us tend to try to err on the side of safety, and although the forum discussed previously mentions 20-40 mites a day in natural drops, most of us would decide to use a more powerful, emergency method to knock the mites back before we got nearly that high. My 'get serious' threshold is more like 3 mites a day in summer and fall (natural drop test), or anything more than an occasional mite in the spring. The Central Science laboratory -- http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/varroamodel/ -- offers an analyzer at http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/varroamodel/app.cfm that can be instructive, but assumes some drone brood at all times, which is not what we observe here. I discuss my own experience at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/drops.htm The main thing is monitor and give yourself -- and your bees -- a wide margin of safety if you see the varroa levels climbing, not falling. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 00:04:33 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: (Fill in the blank) as a control for varroa mites Bill said: > I have many emails in my files from those who lost hives to FGMO I think it would be more fair to say "in spite of using FGMO" rather than "to FGMO". FGMO clearly does not directly kill bees. > but were afraid to post about their losses for fear of the standard comment- > you did not do it right (even under supervision!)- as well as retribution. While it is important to note that "repeatability" and "consistent results" are keys to digging "gems of science" from the "mud of bogus voodoo", I think it is unfair to echo misguided paranoia about "retribution". No one has attempted to make a dime from FGMO. Many people have invested time, effort, and some money in trying to spread the word about FGMO without any thought of personal gain. There is no possible "retribution", other than the potential for having "help" offered by people who are convinced that the treatment is working for them. (Yes, this might result in some embarrassment, but let's admit that someone trying to help is not being mean, even if their style might be abrasive, and their manners minimal.) But lets step back from FGMO, and look at the broader view. Let's look at the BEEKEEPERS who post messages, give talks to their fellow beekeepers at local meetings, and otherwise take pains to "promote" things that I choose to call "alternative bee treatments". If anyone wonders why someone would be motivated to so enthusiastically support something that they themselves may not (yet) understand, may not have the skills to properly implement, or may not even have the interest, skills, or time to properly track success/failure, the reason is simple: Most of the "alternative treatments" are very seductive! By "seductive", I mean that they hold great promise: a) They hold the promise of being a "silver bullet", a single approach that can "fix" the problem. b) They hold the promise of being "non-chemical", "non-poison", and thereby ecologically superior to chemical approaches. c) Many hold the promise of being far cheaper than the "mainstream" approaches. d) Nearly all of the alternatives promise to pose less risk of contamination to honey, wax, brood comb, etc. Varroa can re-infest one's hives from other nearby beekeeper's hives, so it is nothing more than highly enlightened self-interest that prompts some of the advocacy behind some treatments. The net result is a "meme", a sort of a computer virus that spreads between people's minds. The "program code" that makes up the meme is something like this: 1) You want to be safe from varroa. 2) You cannot truly be "safe" until everyone is safe. Reinfestation implies that even one beekeeper using a shoddy approach can reinfest everyone else nearby. 3) Making the world safer for beekeeping would be nice. 4) Love thy neighbor. With such a simple set of instructions, it is no wonder that we have a wide range of alternative treatments floating around in the limbo of anecdotal reports, with few, if any of them blessed by the priests and acolytes of Science with a capital "S". (I am not being insulting here, as I freely admit that I am a mere altar boy in the cathedral of Science, "Our Lady Of Perpetual Pendantism".) Beekeepers by nature are an inventive bunch, and it is only natural that something that can kill one's colonies would become the subject of multiple approaches, some good, some terrible. It is my personal view that the chemical approaches are just as misleadingly seductive as the alternative approaches! The downside risk of the chemicals are the twin demons of resistant varroa and contamination. These downsides are much more dangerous than the downside of an "alternative" treatment being merely less effective in killing varroa. My point is that I view some of the alternatives as valid munitions for my "anti-varroa weapons locker". Excuse the "weapons systems" jargon here, but like the old joke says: The difference between Electrical and Civil Engineers is that Electrical Engineers design weapons systems, while Civil Engineers design the targets! Anyway, admit it - the alternatives don't have the impressive kill ratios of the chemical strips, but they DO have the advantage of being something that one can use to reduce varroa populations in the middle of a nectar flow, don't they? Some newly-emerging treatments that have the advantage of scientific endorsement are CLEARLY "sidearms", in that the beekeeper is expected to manually "aim" and "fire" at each frame in a hive, one at a time. (Good examples are the Sucrose Octanate and powdered sugar.) Some of the alternative treatments are "semi-auto" or "full-auto" weapons, in that treating a hive is a one-step process, but one still is armed with a hand-held weapon (FGMO, Formic Acid, Acetic Acid, Oxalic Acid...) Sadly, the need for repeat treatments has become clear for nearly all of the above, and most of them need to be used only under certain temperature/humidity conditions to get good kill ratios. The only "bombs" we have are the chemical strips. Drop a bomb, walk away, and varroa die. But expect some collateral damage! Anyone who watched the news during the first or the current Gulf War has heard the phrase "bomb damage assessment" or "BDA". The use of these terms means that the military knows and freely admits something that beekeepers just can't seem to grok: Nothing short of a nuclear weapon kills EVERYTHING in the target area! Even after dropping a "daisy cutter" or launching a "smart bomb", BDAs are still done to decide if the target has been destroyed, or if another bomb needs to be dropped. So, what's the point? My point is that IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER WHAT TREATMENT YOU USE as long as you track the actual results using sticky boards, sugar rolls, ether rolls, whatever, and stand ready to attack again, perhaps with a weapon more appropriate to the situation than the one you just used. If you are using a treatment that is "softer" but less effective, this is a choice that has much in common with the choices being made by many of the more ecologically responsible farmers and gardeners. (It should be noted that losing one tomato to pests is much less an emotional and financial blow than losing a hive.) These softer approaches are all useless without some form of "IPM", meaning some sort of metric by which one measure's one's success in keeping pests/diseases below the oft-fabled but seldom clearly defined "economic threshold". IPM means measuring. One cannot control that which they do not measure. If one measures, one has the choice of using whatever weapon is appropriate, from ancient crossbow to Tomahawk missile. It follows that I want a weapons locker that would make a Navy Seal envious. I may want to use a "soft approach" to knock down low-level varroa infestations early in the season, and use a "bomb" at the end of the season when honey has been harvested and brood rearing is over. I think that reducing varroa populations before and during the flows will result in better harvests, simply because less bees are flying around with large (to them) blood-sucking vampires attached to their backs, and I think it should be obvious that this would have a negative impact on both bee productivity and useful lifespan. But there is no "silver bullet". You can't kill all the varroa in a hive without also killing bees, larvae, and contaminating honey and wax for the SAME EXACT REASON that you can't kill all the cats in the world without "collateral damage" in the form of dead dogs and dead children. (Please, no flames cat lovers - it is just an example - I have 5 barn cats, and love each and every one.) But, let me be very clear: There is no one "solution". There is no one easy "fix". The price of honey is eternal vigilance. Face reality, and move forward. Maybe someday we will have Teenage Mutant Ninja Bees that can use kung-fu on varroa, spit on tracheal mites, sneeze at AFB, and take the wallets and watches from Small Hive Beetles, all while producing bumper crops of honey and being easy to work. Until then, I'm going to measure, track, and choose. jim (A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows that they can.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:23:49 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: (Fill in the blank) as a control for varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim said: There is no one "solution". There is no one easy "fix". The price of honey is eternal vigilance. Face reality, and move forward." Maybe someday we will have Teenage Mutant Ninja Bees that can use kung-fu on varroa, spit on tracheal mites, sneeze at AFB, and take the wallets and watches from Small Hive Beetles, all while producing bumper crops of honey and being easy to work. Until then, I'm going to measure, track, and choose" While agreeing with everything Jim said (which is a huge endorsement = since there were so many words) there is one aspect we always tend to = forget that might rob us of a better future if not recoginised. That is = that the current infestation with VD is, in evolutionary terms, an = aberration. Varroa is a parasite and survival rules for parasites = include u do not kill your hosts. It is only beekeepers who are saving = VD from extinction - which we do because we are not prepared to let all = colonies and mites die out together (and then restart with clean = colonies). So while we are right to hope honeybees will evolve hygenic = behaviour by mutation, we can also hope for natural evolution of new = strains of varroa that have lower reproduction rates and so will exist = in bee colonies at low levels without killing the colonies. I am not = sure, but hasn't varroa mutated once already, but in the wrong = direction? V destructor is said to be a different strain to V jacob*** = as first found in the east.=20 The point is to stress the importance of monitoring every colony for = mite population - and to treat ONLY those colonies where the mites are = rising to danger levels. Then we can spot colonies whereever either the = bees or the mites have evolved to co-existence. If the mites evolve = first, IMHO we should NOT kill those but let them spread to survive in = other hives, slowly competing with the killer mites and becoming the = dominant strain. Then treating to reduce mites below the new 'natural, = non-pathological level' would be a decision of choice - rather than of = necessity, as now. Poisons could hopefully be phased out.=20 But , as said before, it is depressing that 10 to 20 years after mites = got to the West, monitoring mite levels and only treating where = necessary (rather than blanket treatment of all hives) is still far from = the norm. How to get the message thru?=20 Robin Dartington=20 =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 08:01:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Winter Honey Consumption on SBB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings: As early as November 27, 2000, a member on this list opined that “The only downside mentioned [regarding the use of SBB on wintering bees] is increased use of winter feed and, of course, the cost of building and installing the new boards.” The entire summary appears below: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0011D&L=bee- l&P=R2423&D=0&H=0&O=T&T=1&m=31984 Although the above observation seems to concur what most of us readily rationalize—-that given the cooler ambient temperature inside the hive, resulting from SBB use, the wintering cluster will consume more honey—-I have yet find a factual data attesting the same, for most observations I have so far read up to this point, regarding SBB usage on wintering colony, splits into two groups: increased ventilation and ineffectual VD control. I am not sure about the verity of the above observation in that 1) it is proven bees do not heat up the hive box but only the cluster and 2) if so, it seems to stand to reason that they should use less winter storage, being much colder. For instance, during warm winter months, they consume more, demanding winter-feeding. Another unrelated thought, after reading the above, is that will a mouse still want to come inside the hive on SBB especially when the cluster is near the bottom and there is not much of "shelter" inside? Your observations are appreciated but will be discarded immediately as useless unless based on factual data (who, when, where, what, why, and how). After all the information above was published three years ago. Yoon Opinions are cheap; their consequences, expensive. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 09:38:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Winter Honey Consumption on SBB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why are so many hung on using acronyms when they write paragraph after paragraph of regular words? I, for one do not know what all these stand for. I have also noticed that some times people get these mixed up and use AHB for AFB and others. Could someone post a listing for all these acronyms so all of us lesser knowledgeable people can understand what is trying to be explained? I worked in an industry that used all the acronyms possible and there were always typo's that caused problems. Lionel North Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 07:46:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: FGMO as control for varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Our weather is similar to Dr. Rodreguez's at Va. > Beach except for the humidity. Our question is " should we suspend > the fogger treatment of FGMO after the first frost and not resume > treatment until we begin the spring population build up One other thing. Although you can fog whenever the bees are active, and the fog is more likely to be effective in Fall, when brood rearing is low, the flip side of the coin is that winter disturbance can result in winter loss. Mice, vibrations, intrusive winter inspections, etc can take a heavy toll on both populations and also hive count. I'm guessing that fogging during actual winter conditions could too.. Although there is likely no real hard data on deleterious effects of fogging at various times of year, I intuitively think that stopping at first frost would likely be too soon. Fall is an ideal time to find the mites vulnerable, with little brood to invade, but I don't know when the bees really settle in for the winter, and therefore should not be disturbed, in your area. Here, a thousand miles north of you, we figure mid-October is the cutoff for treating bees (with anything). That can be as much as two months after the first frost. (The cutoff date for invasive procedures like inspecting and/or rearranging frames is *much* earlier, though). Since we don't know exactly what works, and does not work, in your climate -- you say it is like Virginia Beach and I recall seeing ice and figid weather in VB in January -- you might be wise to talk to local beekeepers in your area and get an opinion on how much disturbance the bees can handle, and learn from them during which months -- if any -- they should be left alone in your district. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 10:31:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Acronyms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Why are so many hung on using acronyms when they write paragraph after > paragraph of regular words? > > I, for one do not know what all these stand for. I have also noticed that > some times people get these mixed up and use AHB for AFB and others. > Lionel, acronyms are used to save repetitive typing. Here is a partial list of those commonly used: AHB = Africanized honey bee (apis mellifera scutellata, or "scuts") AM = apis mellifera ("standard" european honey bees) AFB = American foul brood EFB = European foul brood SBB = slotted bottom board FGMO = food grade mineral oil treatment for varroa & acarine mites VD = varroa destructor VJ = varroa Jacobsoni SHB = small hive beetle Most of these I learned on the list by context and repetition. If I'm in error on any of these, I tust the list will inform me as such :-) Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 10:20:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Winter Honey Consumption on SBB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My apologies [plural], Lionel. SBB: Screened Bottom Boards; VD: Varroa Destructor—not to be confused with SBB: Screwed Bottom Beekeeping or VD: Venereal Disease, resulting from such practice. :) Seriously, Lionel, why don't you tell us more about Southern Beekeeping, in general, which differs from the northern one [most of the bee books are written by uninformed northerners, in fact], and the increasing feral swarms in particular, for I am a believer that Russian or no, there ARE feral colonies, surviving through all this, an experiment much harsher than any scientist can impose in his/her lab [I mean laboratory], a fact that fails to draw much attention from “mainstream” beekeeping. I sure also appreciate if someone with a glass-top, like Denis, who can examine the airflow inside the colony on a screened bottom board: smoke lightly at the bottom and see the flow. Such flow chart will help determine the efficacy of, say, oxalic gassing, among others. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 18:23:56 +0200 Reply-To: superbee Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: superbee Subject: Fill in the blank MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robin, You said: >>That is that the current infestation with VD is, in evolutionary = terms, an aberration. Varroa is a parasite and survival rules for = parasites include u do not kill your hosts.<< Why do you consider it to be an aberration? The natural host is Apis = cerana and Varroa destructor has merely infested Apis mellifera colonies = as well and we all know that there are few, if any, AM colonies that are = able to survive on their own within the present range of Varroa = destructor. This is nothing at all to do with aberrations. >>I am not sure, but hasn't varroa mutated once already, but in the = wrong direction? V destructor is said to be a different strain to V = jacob*** as first found in the east.<< Why do you talk about mutations, it has nothing to do with it. It is = just that what was previously thought to be one species, Varroa = jacobsoni, has now been recognized to be composed of several quite = distinct species. Problems of this kind are called "species complexes" = by taxonomists and the first species described is often called a = "super-species". It was just a matter of luck the jacobsoni was = described before any of the others. The differences between the various = species involved are often phenotypically very small. New technology = and methods, like mtDNA analysis, allow taxonomists to separate certain = populations as new species. Good examples of "species-complexes" can be = found amongst various groups of European Orchids, Cowries and certain = groups of African Charaxes. Whilst the above contains some "taxonomic jargon", it's better if words = such as mutation and aberration are not used loosely and if used at all, = should be used with their correct meaning in mind. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:48:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Late swarms Like many of you, I get calls from people refered to me by police, fire, and other deparments who have had swarms settle on their land. I get them fairly regularly, even now in November I just got one. I have noticed that often the swarms have bees with deformed wings, not bad enough that they can't fly, like some, but still like bees I see in my hives when the mites are building up before my (third year now) annual treatment with Check- mite. I wonder how many of these feral hives that people assume are resistant to mites are the result of natural selection for the trait of absconding. It was something I hated in South Africa, and it's got me wondering if we really should be breeding from some of these swarms. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 08:28:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Canadian Industry develops recommendation for National Import Conditions for honeybee queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=2395 allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 08:46:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Acronyms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Could someone post a listing for all these acronyms so all of us > ...can understand...? Send them in, folks, and we'll put them on the BEE-L page for all to consult. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 17:15:06 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Antiquarian books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At yesterday's association meeting the topic of the Moir Library came = up. The National Library of Scotland are now caring for the rare book = part of the collection, and you can see something of it here: http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/moir/ Charles Butler's attempts (1609 and 1634) to transcribe queen piping = into musical notation. Drawings of bees made with the aid of early microscopes, the = Mellissographia (1625) and Stelluti's illustrations from 1630. .... and more .... More on the history of the collection at SBA's web site: http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/moir/moirlibrary.htm Gavin. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 12:06:19 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Acronyms > I, for one do not know what all these stand for. I have also noticed > that some times people get these mixed up and use AHB for AFB and others. One should not mistake "AFB" (American Foulbrood), the deadly and much-feared disease of bees with "ABF" (American Beekeeping Federation) the organization that claims it represents all US beekeepers despite having a membership of only a tiny fraction of US beekeepers. One is a disease, and the other... On second thought, never mind. :) Don't flame me, ABF members, it is just a harmless JOKE! jim (Purveyor of Weapons of Crass Obstruction) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 17:27:15 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Winter Honey Consumption on SBB In-Reply-To: <200311091301.hA9D1Ne7017019@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <200311091301.hA9D1Ne7017019@listserv.albany.edu>, yoonytoons writes >2) if so, it seems to stand to reason that they should use less winter >storage, being much colder. For instance, during warm winter months, they >consume more, demanding winter-feeding. For fear of being labelled an 'ignorant northerner' (as in your other post) I was reluctant to reply here........however..... From my experience it is a fact that bees on OMF's or SBB's , call them what you will, do consume rather less stores in winter. Our winter temps here are actually quite mild, so we will have more in common with maritime and mid latitude US climates than the more extreme northern areas. The only colonies where I have direct comparisons are in polystyrene, where we have wintered both solid and screened versions together for comparison. This was just to see how the floor would impact on wintering performance, rather than to see the impact on stores useage, which was a side observation. However, it does seem as if bee strain has a much greater impact than hive configuration on how much they eat over the winter months. > Another unrelated thought, after >reading the above, is that will a mouse still want to come inside the hive >on SBB especially when the cluster is near the bottom and there is not >much of "shelter" inside? Indubitably yes. I have the chewed up remnants to prove it. Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 13:54:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Late swarms Most likely that particular swarm has a heavy mite load. Hopefully you can give this hive drawn brood comb, with honey and "feed" enough to carry the hive throughout the winter; and, also treat this hive for both Varroa and trachael mites. I have had hives abscound, healthy hives full of quality honey, and I always wonder: Why? I treat all swarms with caution especially outside the swarming season. When I do have the opportunity to catch a swarm I place it in an isolated hospital yard containing other hived swarms, weak hives recovering from requeening poor or sick queens, or hives on medication. All hived swarms get treatments for mites and are placed on watch for disease as well; I also requeen these hives ASAP. After a three month quarantine hives, so long as the hospital yard does not have a problem, are transferred to normal production and/or pollination. Swarms caught from locations adjacent to or known to contain SHB are treated as such and require quarantine in a yard having the beetle. We do not transport hives from areas having the SHB to beetle free areas even though this practice is now being legally done by other beekeepers. Some of my strongest honey producers have been from captured swarms; but now I do not climb 70 foot pine trees nor do I actively solicit swarm catching as a service, although the county sheriff has my number. This is from an operation with a 200 mile span east to west. Regards, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 13:48:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Indoor wintering How important is it to keep the temp in the wintering building consistant. Are temp fluctuations of a few degrees through out the day and night harmfull? Seems to me that i read the more steady the temp, the better wintering the bees. That doesn't seem to make any sence to me. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:07:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Canadian Industry develops recommendation for National Import Conditions for honeybee queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit With sincere respect to the CHC it is MHO that the CHC import requirements for queens as currently written are rather unrealistic; and, as a consequence only a very few of the very largest queen breeders in the USA will be able to conform to the CHC requirements due to both Varroa and SHB restrictions. I doubt that many operations have a quantified Varroa load of less than 1% and/or are able to afford and obtain Mitochondrial Polymerase Chain Reaction-DNA (PCR-DNA) testing of progeny within 180 days prior to spring shipments in areas not known to have the SHB. I am afraid that that costs associated with CHC's requirements will allow some imports into Canada from the USA; however, some of the most desirable stock in the USA may not be able to be imported into Canada due either to the economics of PCR-DNA testing or the 1% or less Varroa Rule. Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC CHC PROPOSED IMPORT CONDITIONS: The honey bee, Apis mellifera, queens imported under CFIA permit will be eligible for entry into Canada provided that queens are accompanied by a health certificate issued by an official from the Department of Agriculture from the exporting state of the USA within 45 days prior to the importation conforming to sections 1.0 through 2.2 below. 1.0 The queens originate from an apiary that does not have any visible clinical evidence of American Foulbrood (AFB), European Foulbrood (EFB), Varroa mites or small hive beetles. Five percent of the colonies or a minimum of 25 bee colonies (which ever is greater) should be randomly selected and examined from each of the queen production and mating apiaries from which queens will be exported. Inspection for AFB, EFB, Varroa mites and small hive beetles should occur within 45 days prior to exporting queens. Queens would be allowed for shipments if no clinical evidence of AFB, EFB, varroa, and small hive beetles was found in the samples from the queen production and mating apiaries. Bee colonies will be examined as follows: Visual examination of brood for symptoms of AFB or EFB is required. Bee colonies used in queen production and mating apiaries should be free from visible clinical evidence of AFB or EFB. If AFB or EFB is found, queens would not be allowed for shipment from this apiary. At least three brood frames per hive should be inspected. Colonies should be assessed by alcohol washing of bee samples (200-300 bees/colony). The sample of bees should be placed in a basket, immersed in a solution of alcohol and the basket should be shaken for a period of at least two minutes. If varroa is not detected or is under 1% queen shipments will be allowed. If varroa is found at levels above 1%, bee colonies in the queen rearing apiaries should be treated with a product that is registered in Canada. Treated colonies must be retested prior to collecting the queens and attendants to confirm that the level of varroa is below 1%. Visual examination for small hive beetle is required. Colonies lids, bottom boards and frames should be inspected for the small hive beetle. Colonies from which queens are collected should show no clinical evidence of the small hive beetle. 2.0 The queens originate from an apiary free of genes of the sub-Saharan type of the Africanized honey bee, Apis mellifera scutellata. 2.1 Africanized honey bees have not, in the past one year, been detected within 100 miles of the apiaries of queens’ origin. Based on current maps and surveillance programs for Africanized bees, a certificate from an authority of the State Department of Agriculture must be included in the export documentation. 2.2 Mitochondrial Polymerase Chain Reaction-DNA (PCR-DNA) testing results do not show signs of A. m. scutellata in the progeny of the breeder queens. Mitochondrial (PCR-DNA) testing is done on random samples of workers representing the progeny of the selected breeder queens used by the queen producers. The PCR-DNA testing should be conducted within 180 days prior to exporting queens in the spring. Workers collected, one each from each of the breeder queens, may be pooled and run as a single sample if appropriate for the technique. If the test indicates the presence of A. m. scutellata, whether from a single bee or from all pooled workers, that queen producer would not be given certification to export queens. The PCR- DNA testing should be carried out by an accredited or State Laboratory. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 12:08:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stephen and Gail Mitchell Subject: acronyms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To The List, On a point of clarity, an acronym is a word formed by combining initial letters (UNESCO, scuba) or syllables and letters (radar, sonar) of a series of words. The examples from earlier postings on this topic are initialisms, not acronyms. Both are extremely useful in written, typed or verbal communication. Steve Mitchell Bee Haven Farm Steve and Gail Mitchell Bee Haven Farm 4820 Wilson Rd. Duncan, BC V9L 6L6 Phone(250)746-9916 Fax (250) 746-9233 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:05:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ivan McGill Subject: Re: Indoor wintering In-Reply-To: <200311091848.hA9Ig8eZ028886@listserv.albany.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ian: Just a quick note in my overwintering building the temp. fluctuates up and down a few degrees. Above 50F the become restless as you are getting near cluster break. Best temp. is between 40F & 45F. What most people forget is, keep the air fresh. If it doesn't smell good to you, it won't be good for the bees. May be too simple but that is the system I use. Ivan On Sunday, November 9, 2003, at 10:48 AM, Ian wrote: > How important is it to keep the temp in the wintering building > consistant. Are temp fluctuations of a few degrees through out the day > and night harmfull? Seems to me that i read the more steady the > temp, the better wintering the bees. That doesn't seem to make any > sence to me. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 19:52:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey or Syrup pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe asks: I'll need a pump to move syrup. What makes a honey/syrup pump good for that task? A progressing cavity pump will handle the task for sure ($2,360 U.S. Dadant 2003 catalog pg. 48). Many small pumps will work *if* the honey is fairly warm. If you pump really cold syrup with a small pump (Kelley) and a big horsepower motor (3-5 Hp gasoline) you will smell the belts burning up. Once glazed they need replacing. I never tried a water pump and have never seen one used. Maybe others will comment on their use. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 17:24:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Meister Subject: Small flying insects in hive. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello all: I live in Fallbrook, CA USA and I have 5 colonies for pollinating avocados. The colonies are physically separated by a few hundred feet each. I was checking the hives today and observed that some of them had small flying insects crawling/flying on the outside of the hive. They remind me of "midges" that are typically seen in coastal areas of the county. Maybe they're fruit flies. When I removed the outer and inner covers, I saw nothing unusual on any but one hive. When I opened it, hundreds of the flies flew out and I observed quite an unusual amount of condensation on the underside of inner cover. I don't know if the condensation and fly infestation are related in any way. Nor do I know if the flies are in any way harming the bees. I haven't read about flying insect infestations, but I'm new at this game. Can anyone explain what might be happening? Thanks Bill :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 20:18:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Acronyms In-Reply-To: <001701c3a6d6$8bde26f0$34ad72d8@SOD> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >SBB = slotted bottom board Might this be screened bottom board? Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:38:56 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Beekeeping in Kerala I am planning a holiday in Kerala and hope to see some beekeeping there. If anyone has any useful information I would be pleased to hear from them. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:36:26 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Richard Taylor Rick wrote: > While I never met Richard Taylor in person the lilt to > his written words have the same effect...you can quickly recognise the man > hearing the message. I dare to call it a universal message of "slow down and listen > to the world all around. How true. I read his 'Joys of Beekeeping' before I bought my first hives and I am sure that it made me want to have bees even more! In it, he described his honey house as a place for 'puttering and pondering'. That was the first time that I had come across the word 'puttering' and it has stuck in my mind ever since; whenever I saw his name I had this vision of a very contented man 'puttering' in his honey house, his inner sanctum, and I often think of this when I am puttering. Of course, the dictionaries are less kind. They define puttering as: 'To occupy oneself in an aimless or ineffective manner', or 'To waste (time) in idling: puttered away the hours in the garden'. But I am certain that Richard's time was not wasted, for his writing brought us not only the joys of beekeeping but also made us think rather more deeply about the whole purpose of life. It seems inadequate to say that he will be missed. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 18:12:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Indoor wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, l wouldn't think that a few degrees would make a lot of difference. Here in Quebec most new wintering buildings have an elontronic control system that, with variable speed fans, can keep the required plus 3oC within 0.2 degrees either way throughout the winter. At a constant temperature the bees are quiet and the food consumation at a minimum. My associate has recently built a new building for 3,000 hives and has a central control for fans, inlet doors and refrigeration. This is the same form of control as used in factory pig production, and is easily adapted (by the company) for wintering hives. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian" To: Sent: November 9, 2003 1:48 PM Subject: [BEE-L] Indoor wintering > How important is it to keep the temp in the wintering building > consistant. Are temp fluctuations of a few degrees through out the day > and night harmfull? Seems to me that i read the more steady the > temp, the better wintering the bees. That doesn't seem to make any > sence to me. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 17:55:36 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Canadian Industry develops recommendation for National Import Conditions for honeybee queens Chuck said: > it is MHO that the CHC import requirements for queens > as currently written are rather unrealistic Hey, its a start. Like all "starts", it is a product of compromise between factions that started out as "in conflict". On a purely intellectual level, I do agree with you, but not in the way you might think. Trusting one's pest and disease protection to the exporter (the so-called "source certification" approach) is inherently flawed. Canada should not trust its biosecurity to US, New Zealand, Austrailian, or any other county's producers. No country should "trust" a for-profit foreign firm to place biosecurity before sales and profits. What is needed is port-of-entry inspection, where statistical samples can be made, or as is done in the UK, imported attendants are removed, replaced with local attendants, and the imported attendants are killed and examined by a lab for diseases and pests. The rules concerning "Africanized Bees" (AHB) are transparent political posturing, and therefore silly. I can understand why the CHC felt forced to address this, since they based some of their "ban" rationale on the highly unrealistic fear that a US queen breeder would ship AHB, or bees that had crossed with AHB. Just as a baker is not going to allow her flour to become infested by bugs in the first place, let alone ship bread baked with infested flour, what queen breeder would allow their stock to become "africanized", let alone ship any queens that show signs of producing workers "more defensive" than usual? ...but, like I said, it is a start... jim (Who does not sell queens, and has no money onb the table) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:45:38 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Acronyms Todd said: > acronyms are used to save repetitive typing. Here is a partial list of > those commonly used: > > AHB = Africanized honey bee (apis mellifera scutellata, or "scuts") > AM = apis mellifera ("standard" european honey bees) > AFB = American foul brood > EFB = European foul brood > SBB = slotted bottom board > FGMO = food grade mineral oil treatment for varroa & acarine mites > VD = varroa destructor > VJ = varroa Jacobsoni > SHB = small hive beetle Sorry to be pedantic, but my understanding is that none of these are acronyms - they are initialisations or initialisms. An acronym must form a pronounceable word in its own right, e.g. RADAR (for 'RAdio Detecting And Ranging), NATO or AIDS (For 'Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome'). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:27:38 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate Allen said: > I also, understand that the ideal time for treatment is when there is little or no brood. That > takes care of the concerns about brood, but -- if we think about it --what > is the weather likely to be when the brood rearing is cut back to nil? The greater problem here is that by the time that there is little or no brood it is far too late to treat a colony for varroa. Colonies die out in winter not because of the varroa, but because of the deformed wing virus (DWV) vectored by varroa. If we wait until there is no brood then a significant proportion of our adult bees may well be infected with the virus - and, if there is no brood left to emerge, then these bees have to survive through to the spring. However, DWV shortens the life of bees to an average of 88 days - so bees that we see in early November will all be dead by early February and the colony will not survive the winter. Colonies must be treated early to ensure that there is an adequate population of healthy young bees going into the winter; this means, for the UK at least, that treatment should start as soon as the crop is removed, usually in early August. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:33:23 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: (Fill in the blank) as a control for varroa mites Robin said: It is only beekeepers who are saving VD from extinction - which we do because we are not prepared to let all colonies and mites die out together (and then restart with clean colonies). I have a problem with the logic here - if ALL colonies have died, where do we get the clean colonies to restart? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 16:28:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Really raw honey - "organic" label MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike said: It might not be illegal, but it is definitely bad practice. This is a major contributor to the acceleration of resistance. You may elect not to treat but if you treat at all, FOLLOW THE LABEL! I was referring to the spraying in my orchard and not treatment of pests of honey bees. Fellow orchard owners listen carefully as I have a lifetime of experience in small orchards. About pesticide sprays for orchards if not growing "organic". 1. When using IPM methods you identify the problem pest first. Many (if not most) large orchards spray to kill all insects which are in the area of the orchard good or bad! 2. Then if chemical use is needed you choose (in my opinion) a chemical to use which will kill the problem pest but not every insect in the orchard! About every label you look at covers many insect pests. Many insects are hard to kill and others very easy. I have found even the mildest orchard pesticide like spectricide can be used at half dose and with proper timing will kill many of the pests on the label. Found out by listening to other orchard owners and trial and error. Saves money, helps the beneficial insects and is a better choice for the spray applicators health. After a couple decades as an organic grower and now doing IPM I still hate to use a chemical (even one time) which not only kills all the bad pests but the beneficial insects as well. I have been told by employees of chemical companies that the formula in a pesticide with a broad label such as "Home orchard Spray" is formulated to kill the hardest to control insect on the label in the worst of weather conditions AND THEN many pesticide companies recommend higher than necessary dosage in order to sell more of the product (kind of like lather twice on a shampoo bottle). Careful monitoring of a beehive or orchard is necessary if you choose to use IPM methods instead of blanket treating with a harsh chemical. Careful testing after IPM treatment beehive and observing in the orchard will tell if a stronger chemical approach is necessary. The U.S.D.A. actually recommends IPM rather than blanket spraying with harsh chemicals but weekly spraying with harsh pesticides will produce beautiful crops while my methods could involve extra labor ,extra treatments and at times crop failure. One of my best friends (non deceased) followed the harsh chemical and commonly used spray programs of the larger apple orchards . He lived one year after diagnoses of a type of throat cancer linked to apple orchard growers. Resistance to chemicals happen with all chemicals sooner or later regardless of the dose. Having returned from networking with my many friends in the "organic" movement I noticed even the word chemical when used caused a reaction like I had said a four letter word. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 19:33:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Really raw honey - "organic" label MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, While at the National Small Farm Today trade show this weekend I was able to talk with an organic group which would certify honey organic. Midwest Organic Farmers Coop. Membership fee $2000 (U.S.) www.midwestorganic.com I talked to the rep for a few minutes but realized he was not very informed on honey certification so moved on. He became very defensive when I told him that a person could legally say his product was produced by *organic methods* but not *certified organic*. He said the word organic could not be used even in a sentance talking about a product. My brother is a lawyer and we had a big laugh over his statement. After all in the listing of resource information at the USDA,ARS website a list of 412 publications on "organic " production are listed. Alternative Farming Systems information Center National Agriculture Library. USDA.ARS 10301 Baltimore Ave., Room 132 Beltsville, Maryland 20705-2351 Ask for Organic : A Guide to Resources 1989-Sept. 2004 Compiled by Stephanie M. Boehmer One can not now claim his/her product is "organic" without cetification (I have been told in the U.S.)but the telling of people you have *tried* to follow "organic" standards you read about in one of over 400 publications on the subject is quite legal I have been advised! For history buffs: The term "organic farming" was FIRST printed in the 1940 publication "Look to the Land" by Lord Northbourne (London, England). The term "organic Gardening" first appeared in print in 1942 in founding the publication by J.I. Rodale: "Organic Gardening and farming" Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:12:25 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Small flying insects in hive. Bill said: > small flying insects crawling/flying on the outside of the hive. > They remind me of "midges"... Maybe they're fruit flies. I saw exactly the same thing on a honey super myself once in fall. The super had been stupidly stacked with supers of foundation that had not been fully drawn out by the bees, and were slated for storage until next year. A lack of cross-checking of super stencil numbers between harvest lists and extraction lists meant that it was ignored. The super sat for over a week, neglected and unprotected in rather warm weather. It was supposed to be "undrawn plastic foundation in those supers, so no effort was made to seal them off. The error was discovered weeks after the stack was rolled into the comb storage room because of the "fruit flies" (or whatever they were) flying about in what was supposed to be a sealed and sanitary room for comb storage. They were on the top bars. I took the super out and made gifts of the frames to colonies that could use some extra poundage for fall and had an "empty" comb. (I sure was not going to extract it!) > I saw nothing unusual on any but one hive. When I opened it, > hundreds of the flies flew out and I observed quite an unusual > amount of condensation on the underside of inner cover. Here's a wild guess: 1) The hive is very weak - varroa crash/queenless/whatever. 2) The (smaller number of) bees are not keeping the upper super "clean" and patrolled. 3) The tiny flying insects are being opportunistic, and moved in, bred, and "took over". My reasoning is that the bees would normally find and eliminate this (or any) sort of interloper in a stronger hive. jim (Who learned to practice double-entry "beekeeping bookkeeping" in the honey house from that incident) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 19:45:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Honey or Syrup pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I never tried a water pump and have never seen one used. Maybe > others will comment on their use. I think we've covered pumps in detail here before, but here are few thoughts. A hundred dollar One inch brass gear pump (available at many hardware stores) reduced 12:1 or so with belt and pulley and driven by a 1/2 HP cap start motor will fill most hobbyist and sideliner needs. We also used a few 1-1/2" Jabsco rubber impeller pumps for commercial service, but, frankly, the gear pumps were almost as good. A couple of camlock fittings threaded onto nipples, threaded into the pump allow for taking hoses on and off in a jiffy(1). With honey, you NEED to be able to take the hoses off easily when they granulate or the pump needs moving. A reversing switch is nice to have on any pump. 'honey AND pump" got me 93 hits in the search window at http://honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/ (with the substring box checked). Should be *something* useful there, I should think. Try it. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ (1) Note to Jim. It's just an expression, not meant to be taken literally :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 19:51:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Stopping Too early MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I also, understand that the ideal time for treatment is when there >> is little or no brood. That takes care of the concerns about brood, >> but -- if we think about it --what is the weather likely to be when >> the brood rearing is cut back to nil? > > The greater problem here is that by the time that there is little or > no brood it is far too late to treat a colony for varroa... etc. Actually the question was when to STOP treating weekly with FGMO, not when to treat. The comments quoted above were suggesting that stopping too early -- at first frost, as proposed -- would mean missing one of the best periods for varroa treatment. FGMO is only mildy efective, and must be applied many times to have an effect, and must monitored regularly for efficacy. allen (who does not generally speak of himself in the 3rd person). http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 20:53:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Canadian Industry develops recommendation for National Import Conditions for honeybee queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Canada should not trust its biosecurity to US, New Zealand, > Austrailian, or any other county's producers. (etc.) Canada should not consider trade across the US border to be a biosecurity matter any more than interstate trade in the US or interprovincial trade in Canada should be a biosecurity matter. As for bees, honey bees are not native to Canada and are only maintained here by man, with considerable effort, and beside, most of the stock here came from US sources. There are few natural barriers at the Canada/US border, and, if there are separate regions that should be kept separate, it is Eastern and Western Canada, not Canada and the USA. The current canadian border closure to US mainland stock was (supposed to be) simply a temporary quarantine to slow the spread of a new and poorly understood pest. The ban was similar to those imposed early on by some US states for a short while. Those local bans, in the US, lasted only until it was seen that the direct and indirect costs of the quarantine were more disruptive and costly than the pests being controlled. Unfortunately, national politics being what they are in Canada, undoing our border closure was not as simple as imposing it, and reason has had very little part in the discusion until lately. At supper tonight I sat with two Europeans and they talked of how a Dutchman took his hives to Spain with him and back when he went for holidays, and how the Western Europeans routinely went to Turkey, Egypt and other countries to get bees. They seem to have thought continentally long before the current union. > The rules concerning "Africanized Bees" (AHB) are transparent > political posturing, and therefore silly. So was much of the rest of it, if mean spiritedness, self-dealing, and protectionism can be called "silly". allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 07:39:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Acronyms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >SBB = slotted bottom board > > Might this be screened bottom board? > > Mike > Oops, methinks Mike is right. What then, would be the abbreviation/acronym for slotted bottom board - SLOBB? :)) Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 05:13:04 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Water isotope testing and chloramphenicol - RETRACTION In-Reply-To: <004301c3a751$4aec5e20$4a29c2cb@oemcomputer> > Hi Jim > > Just thought I would pass on the information from the gurus > in Australia who say that they cannot use the water isotope > method you described on Bee-L for honey. Apparently our > Atomic Energy Commission is one who say it will not work. > > Can you point them in the right direction? > > Regards > Trevor Weatherhead I'm sorry to have wasted their time. I should have posted a public retraction of my prior statements on Bee-L. I will post this. I was waiting for the labs hired by the (US) National Honey Board to make a statement about what tests they thought would be best before I mentioned it again. Strange how it has been so long without any consensus on how one can detect this fraudulent glop. Yes, your guys are correct. While the idea/theory/basic concept is valid, and "should work", the problem is that the current hardware simply is not good enough, and "the technology" does not (yet) exist to do what I described. While "water isotope testing" DOES work very well for orange juice, and is a valuable forensic tool in a wide range of other areas, it does not even work for apple juice. Like apple juice, honey has a confusing mix of sugars and too many hydrogens floating around. You just can't "see clearly" enough. Hydrogen isotope testing (Deuterium testing) may or may not work, but even if it does, it is simply not affordable. The hardware for water isotope testing runs about $250K US the hardware for hydrogen isotope testing runs over $1 million US. The lab fees would bankrupt any budget for testing. Maybe the technology will improve, but for the moment, all I can do is observe that ultra-filtered honey, if filtered through the same type of filter that is used to make the super-clear mead, as created at Cornell: a) Has an amazing lack of pollen grains of any sort (but pollen grains can also be eliminated by coarser filters than "ultra") b) Has an amazing lack of proteins (which are not filtered out by coarser filters) c) May include detectable levels of items found in tap water (lots of chemicals get added to water when it is treated), but only if those chemicals have molecules smaller than the filter size. So, offhand, I'd guess that "low protein honey" is going to be the dead give-away, and the test will be a "percentage of protein per fixed amount of honey". But heck, I dunno if the chloramphenicol is larger or smaller than a typical protein found in honey, so someone should check on this before we assume that filtering out chloramphenicol will reduce or eliminate proteins. (I never seen chloramphenicol, and don't want to, but proteins are pretty small.) Do Australians fear that this glop will be sold to importer/packers, and then to the Australian consumer, or are you more worried about yet another scandal in a teapot over importing, and then re-exporting "false-flag honey"? If, as I suspect, the only real concern is over the tainting of the Australian export honey, the best solution I can suggest is boring old bookkeeping and auditing. Technology is neat, but I'd suggest that a CPA would be more likely to find this sort of fraudulent activity than a PhD. Never underestimate the value of a Certified Public Accountant! (Yes, that was a pun) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:46:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Indoor wintering >l wouldn't think that a few degrees would make a lot of difference. >with variable speed fans, can keep the required plus 3oC within 0.2 degrees >either way throughout the winter. At a constant temperature the bees are >quiet and the food consumation at a minimum. Why would a few degrees make alot of difference? I am keeping 30 hives in my hot room this winter, which were made up as increases this summer. It is my first time wintering indoors so my set up is fairly crude. I have them in a 7' by 10' by10' room. I have a bathroom fan on a timer for air exchange, ceiling fan for light air circulation, a construction heater and a ventalation fan on a thermistat for temp regulation. My thermistat maintains a temp between 2-5 degrees C. Ventalation fan is set at 10 degrees and over. Just wondering how the fluctuation of 3 or 4 degrees make any difference in there wintering sucess. In my mind it shouldn't matter, but I'm told it does, Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 18:24:44 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Helicpoters & bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/11/03 05:06:38 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > I also looked at this really good > spot to possibly put a colony or 2 , but thought against it because it > was about 30' from an active railroad line. My concern was how the > rumbling, shaking, and noise would affect them. I felt they would get > agitated too easily and stay that way. > > I keep a couple of hives on a railway embankment. I can feel the vivration > through my feet as trains go by. The bees take no apparent notice at all. > > Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:55:09 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Helicpoters & bees By co-incidence, I have just been given a copy of Bee World from 1965 in which a story is reported about bees and aircraft. Seems that the beekeeper ran a market garden and a fifty hive apiary some five miles south-west of an airbase. He noticed that when the wind was from the west or south-west and planes from the base flew low over his apiary, the bees 'always came out to see what the noise was all about'. On such a day he set up some balloons on canes in an attempt to keep pigeons from his crops and when about thirty were in place a plane flew over. Within five minutes his bees had stung the balloons and burst them all. The main point of the story was that the balloons were red, yellow and blue - and the bees burst them in that order! The balloons were from five to a hundred yards from the hives and the colours were randomly distributed. The beekeeper was not attacked. I doubt this will help in the case of the helicopters, but I thought it an interesting story. Peter Edwards (wondering if Jim can resist the challenge of trying to replicate this one!) beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ (The story was NOT dated 1 April) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:22:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rotation of Varroa Treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/11/03 05:01:41 GMT Standard Time, Tim Vaughan writes: > bees I see in my hives when the mites > are building up before my (third year now) annual treatment with Check- > mite. Tim, Are you going to keep with Check mite until they become resistant; to switch back (possibly after testing) to Apistan; or to practice IPM possibly in conjunction witrh one of the above? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:00:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Small flying insects in hive. In-Reply-To: <005201c3a729$758b3160$b869040a@bmeisterhome> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 17:24:54 -0800 From: Bill Meister Subject: [BEE-L] Small flying insects in hive. To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Send reply to: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > hundreds of the flies flew out and I > observed quite an unusual amount of condensation on the underside of inner > cover Did it smell sour? -Possibly vinegar flies. Take a look at: http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2109.html Dave in SC, USA The Kids Good Bug Page: http://goodbugpage.org :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:42:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Drones are the Joker in the Deck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe I was napping through the meetings when SMR was being discussed, but I got to wondering about drones, so I wrote John Harbo to ask. His reply has bearing on understanding varroa dynamics, and I offer it here with his permission, and his disclaimer. My question: > > In colonies headed by SMR queens, and after a generation has been > > raised, are the mites equally non-reproductive on drone brood as > > on worker brood? > > > > Or does the presence of drone brood lower the tolerance to mites > > substantially? > > > > What I am wondering is whether an SMR colony which is raising drones > > in abundance has the same degree of protection, by SMR, as one which > > is raising worker brood principally, and very few drones. His reply: > Mites do reproduce in SMR drones. Most of our data was in colonies > with free-mated SMR queens where the drones were pure SMR and the > workers were not. The presence of drones often sparked an increase in > mite reproduction in worker brood too (My guess is that mites that are > produced in the drone brood of SMR colonies are reproductive when they > enter their next cell, while those produced in worker brood are > nonreproductive as long as the next cell that they enter is a worker > cell). So yes, overall resistance to varroa declined when drone brood > was present. > > I think we found less reproduction in SMR drones than in control > drones but the bottom line was that the SMR trait did not save the > drones except by reducing the mite population in the colony when > drone brood was not present in significant amounts. Our data is > pretty weak on this subject, and we hope to address this issue in > more detail, hopefully next spring. > > Very interesting. Do you mind if I quote this in discussions? > I don't mind as long as you make it very clear that this is just my > opinion and that my opinion is based on only 10 or 15 scattered > observations. Usually in situations like this, I am not exactly correct, > so I expect to be surprised when we get more data. I thought this may answer (and raise) some questions, even in dealing with non-SMR hives, and particularly in regard to understanding the model at http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/varroamodel/, or the calculator at http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/varroamodel/app.cfm. At "The New Varroa Model" page, pay particular attention to the chart titled "Comparison of the number of mites emerging from drone brood and worker brood as predicted by the model - emphasising the importance of drone brood". allen Is this list called BEE-L or VARROA-L? http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:27:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Rotation of Varroa Treatments Chris, I'm almost at a loss for what to do. I've mentioned before that the guy I bought my bees from (he didn't tell me until after the check cleared) kept Apistan in the hives year round, and scratched them with the hive tool every time he worked the hives. When last I put in Apistan strips, about 2 years ago (as I said, this is my third treatment with Check-mite) they didn't help with the mites, and as my apiaries were crawling with bees which couldn't fly and I had up to 14 mites per drone cell, I took the rather lengthy Section 18 exception test and got the Check-mite. I am fortuante in that the County Ag office tells me I'm the only one in the area using Check-mite, at least legally, so I hope that by my careful use of the product it should be effective until something else comes along that not only works, but is easy to use. I can only devote about a day per week working with my widely scattered 100 hives, and some of these remedies spoken of on this list are out and out impractical to say the least. And at a practical level, the Terramycin grease patties and the Check-mite strips are quick, easy and my bees have never been more productive and trouble free (except for ants and that stupid bear). Regards Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:05:05 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Helicpoters & bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If we are swopping stories...... When in the Army as a young man I has several hives open near an army airfield, working with a face veil but rolled up sleeves, when a jet fighter flew thunderously very low overhead. The bees, until then quiet, suddenly fiercely attacked, covering my arms completely with a layer of stingers, which I kept brushing off, foolishly as it just made room for another layer. I was hospitalised for a few days with what the doctors called protein poisoning - high temperature, almost in a coma. Now I keep away from airfields. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:01:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Wiebe Subject: Honey Pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This really sucks. I run my unheated honey from my extractor into an unheated sump. The sump has two settling baffles in it. I use a rotor type honey pump to move my honey straight into barrels. Works pretty good, but slow. Occasionally you'll hear a frame or two inside the extractor fly apart. Slowly the wires from the used to be wired foundation floats out of the extractor, through the sump and gets sucked into my pump and stops its rotation. After so many pieces of wire hit the pump, the rotor in the pump flies into many pieces. The rotor for the pump costs just over two hundred dollars to replace. Besides using "plastic" foundation, has anybody any wise ideas as to how I mite filter out the floating wires from the honey before they get sucked into my pump? John. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:25:45 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ben Smith Subject: Re: Honey Pumps In-Reply-To: <3FB0EBCB.4000006@prairie.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On > Behalf Of John Wiebe > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:02 PM > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: [BEE-L] Honey Pumps > Besides using "plastic" foundation, has > anybody any wise ideas as to how I mite filter out the floating wires > from the honey before they get sucked into my pump? > John. > How about fitting a powerful magnet to the tank, if you used one of the circular ferrite magnets from something like an old microwave magnetron you could fit it round the entrance pipe, this should grab most of the wires, combined with a coarse mesh filter you should get them all. Ben. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:54:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: At the Mouth of the River of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon- I enjoyed your posting on BEE-L titled SISTERHOOD and printed out a copy to pass around the office where I work. (There has been some interest in bees there since my five pound package of bees showed up on my desk for my starter hive this spring.) I found the following on a science fiction site and am passing the link to you. More fantasy or "fantastic reality" then science, but pro-bee - a story about preservation (in contrast to the typical killer bee story that focuses on destruction). I think of it as a fable (ala ESOP), an allegory about the quest we are all on. It fits Picasso's definition: Art is a lie that makes us see the truth. At the Mouth of the River of Bees by Kij Johnson http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/originals/originals_archive/johnson/johnson1.h tml :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:05:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: Honey Pumps In-Reply-To: <3FB0EBCB.4000006@prairie.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, John Wiebe wrote: > hundred dollars to replace. Besides using "plastic" foundation, has > anybody any wise ideas as to how I mite filter out the floating wires > from the honey before they get sucked into my pump? How about a powerful magnet? You can get pretty good sized nickle-plated Neodymium-Iron-Boron magnets for a pretty reasonable price that will grab anything iron-bearing and hold onto it like grim death. A good source is www.gaussboys.com (that's where I get my big honking magnets, anyway). Put a couple of these near the outlet of your tank, and it should grab the wires very effectively, as long as you aren't using one of the nonmagnetic grades of stainless steel (check your wire with a refrigerator magnet before investing in one of these). -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:18:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Hobbyists - How do you clean your Extractors? In-Reply-To: <200311071907.hA7J5KeB017612@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I was given an old galvanized extractor by my father when I started. He advised me never to clean it after using it, but to wait and clean it before the next use, the idea being that the honey and wax help protect it from rust. It's hard to say whether it helped, as the extractor was already rusty and was when he purchased it at auction. Eugene Makovec __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:35:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Old Extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eugene said "It's hard to say whether it helped, as the extractor was already rusty and was when he purchased it at auction." On the other hand, if one of the galvanized extractors was properly cared for it was not unusual to see no rust. Just last year I literally inherited one that I was told dated to the 1930's. Four frame reversible, hand powered. Just one spot of rust, and that where honey would not come in contact, and literally a 'spot'. I have no idea the last time it was used, but I was told 'more than 10 years ago', because the bees died of mites and the 90-year old owner didn't want to bother treating. It sat unused in a unheated barn for that period of time, but looks NEW. I have promised to sell it and give the proceeds to our bee club. Ideal for someone with fewer than six hives who (for some strange reason) insists on having extracted, instead of comb, honey. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 09:42:54 -0800 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)" Subject: Hive availability for small growers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Here at the Xerces Society we are looking for information on pollination= for small growers, i.e., those people who grow small areas of crops and= who probably only need two or three hives for pollination. Some people say= it is increasingly difficult for these people to get bees when they need= them but we have little evidence one way or the other, hence my email= today. We're trying to find out how these growers get bees when they need them and= what hurdles they may have to overcome. A few of the things we have been= pondering include: Do beekeepers find it difficult to provide a small number of hives to small= growers? Is the fact that they only need a handful of hives a barrier to them= getting them? Does demand for hives from large growers mean that there are no hives= available? Is is mainly hobbyist or part-time beekeepers who can help? Do these growers tend to keep a few hives themselves? Any information or illumination that Bee-L members can offer will be= gratefully received. We're beginning to gather information that may help= small growers get reliable pollination, whether from honey bees or other= bees, managed or wild, and this sort of information will be very helpful= in helping us to understand better the current situation. Thanks, Matthew ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Conservation Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at www.xerces.org ______________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:41:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Karen D. Oland" Subject: Re: Old Extractors In-Reply-To: <002c01c3a87a$314d1e80$cae9d518@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, What type of treatment would be required to safely use a galvanized extractor (assuming no rust)? I also have one that was given to me by a retired beekeeper that sits unused in a corner. I know some states have banned galvanized materials from contact with any honey that is then sold. Karen --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:08:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: galvanized extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen asked me about restrictions on the use of galvanized extractors. I have to plead 'don't know'. I know who does...the folks at Kelley. 800-233-2899. Ask for Sarah. If she is not available, ask for Mary K or Earl. As old line manufacturers, Kelley made all the galvanized stuff and then had to change to stainless. The change involved a lot more than purchasing different metal, as all the working is much different. From 'how to' on the part of the workers to welding/soldering materials, shears, etc. Sarah, Mary K, and Earl were there when the change took place so I am reasonably certain they know the history. Another possibility is Nick Dadant. Toll free at 888-922-1293. Like Kelley, Dadant had to go through the change. I think Nick is too young to have been around, but perhaps he still knows the history. I tried looking in Hive and the Honey Bee, but it was not of any help. Good luck, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:13:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Old Extractors In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:41 PM 11/11/2003, you wrote: >Lloyd, > >What type of treatment would be required to safely use a galvanized >extractor (assuming no rust)? Use a food grade epoxy on it. Several of the supply houses carry it. Mann Lake, Walter T. Kelly, etc. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:31:04 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Hobbyists - How do you clean your Extractors? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I cleaned my stainless steel 9-frame radial today and found it easier than before because I made an error - which is often how we learn . The inside was coated with very hard ivy honey. The technique this time was: pour in cold water to just touch the bottom of the cage, and leave for a few days (I did not get back for 3 days, that was the 'error'). I found the high humidity inside had made all the set honey take up moisture and become a slush. When I turned the cage fast, - the water started to swirl and magically climb the drum wall to about 6 ins of the top, all below washed completely clean. I drwew off a jug of water thru the honey tap and started pouring over the top six inches - the honey being so slushy washed down easily. I cleaned off the top circle of the cage with a cloth, emptied the extractor and put in clean water to rinse. No point in removing all the propolis as far as I can see. Robin Dartington. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:43:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Drones are the Joker in the Deck Allen & All, Literally, (IMO) Drones REALLY Are The Jokers In The Deck! AFAIK drones do not pass on mitochrondrial DNA but they carry and pass on 100% of their mother's alleles. If a AHB drone mates with the daughter of a Breeder Queen then no amount of Mitochondrial Polymerase Chain Reaction- DNA (PCR-DNA) testing results will show signs of A. m. scutellata in the progeny of that breeder queens' grand-daughters. This is also assumed to be true if the Breeder Queens are allowed to openly mate and are not fertilized by artificial and controlled methods with known lines of donor drones. In this case the daughter, a worker, if tested by PCR-DNA methods will show no presence of A. m. scutellata. Furthermore, since a queen will openly mate with as many as 15 drones chances are approximately 1 in 15 (based on a good mating flight or flights) that a randomally selected worker bee would have any alleles of a Drone AHB at all, in this case there would be a one in fifteen chance that worker bee would turn up positive for A. m. scutellata in any DNA/RNA format of testing. In short, it is MHO that PCR-DNA testing of breeder queen daughters is not a valid form of testing to assure non-entry of AHB Queens into Canada. However, you must keep in mind that I am an engineer and not a trained biologist, entomologist, or geneticist; I am sure that the good folks who created the CHC PROPOSED IMPORT CONDITIONS knew what they were doing when they decided to require Mitochondrial (PCR-DNA) testing on random samples of workers representing the progeny of the selected breeder queens used by the queen producers who will be permitted to supply queens to Canada from the continental USA. If I am wrong I certainly want to be corrected, and I would very much like to know about this in detail. I just hope that the costs associated with such testing as PCR-DNA Testing will not place any further financial burden on the costs associated with raising approximately one million(?) additional queens that will hopefully be crossing the US-Canadian border into Canada in the spring of 2004. Although I realize the economics of supply and demand I believe that with carefull planning and reasonable forecasting by the queen breeders combined with early ordering by the Canadians that the price and availability of queens in 2004 will continue to be reasonable for ALL beekeepers. I further hope that ALL respectable queen breeders with all lines of Russians, SMR's, NWC, and Minn. Hygienic, as well as 'Standard" Carniolans, Italians, and other honey bees with outfits both big and small will be able to qualify for shipping their valuable queens into all parts of Canada so long as the AHB will not gain an aberrant, abridged, or abbreviated entry into Canada. As far as the Varroa is concerned; that is for a knight of a different color and perhaps a different deck. Please see, http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0311b&L=bee- l&D=0&P=3258, for further details. Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:06:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive availability for small growers Comments: To: mdshepherd@xerces.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Here at the Xerces Society we are looking for information on pollination for small growers, i.e., those people who grow small areas of crops and who probably only need two or three hives for pollination. Some people say it is increasingly difficult for these people to get bees when they need them but we have little evidence one way or the other, hence my email today. It is very hard if not almost impossible for the person needing two or three hives to get bees for pollination from a beekeeper which provides larger scale pollination unless you live close by. Matthew asks; We're trying to find out how these growers get bees when they need them and what hurdles they may have to overcome. Be willing to pay a fee which is based on the amount of work involved and with the beekeeper which has hives on stands (instead of skids) possibly help with the moving in and out. > A few of the things we have been pondering include: Do beekeepers find it difficult to provide a small number of hives to small growers? I myself do not have a problem but It costs the same to bring a skid of four hives gas wise, forklift wise and about time wise as to bring a truckload. >Is the fact that they only need a handful of hives a barrier to them getting them? Certainly! The larger the order for hives the higher the priority. My partner will not fire up the truck for less than a half truck load of beehives *unless* the drop is along the route to a larger orchard. Beekeepers doing pollination are in the business of making money. >Does demand for hives from large growers mean that there are no hives available? The only place I ever see a shortage of beehives for pollination is in California for Almond pollination and those growers usually only need a hundred or so hives. If they took a whole semi load I believe they would most times get pollination. >Is is mainly hobbyist or part-time beekeepers who can help? I believe so if only looking for a few hives. The Blue orchard mason bee might work for a small pollination. >Do these growers tend to keep a few hives themselves? Many do as the only way to get pollination. Organic growers tend to keep hives but growers using sprays have a hard time keeping hives alive in their orchards unless very careful about spraying. >Any information or illumination that Bee-L members can offer will be gratefully received I would love at times to tape record a few of the polination calls I have received to play at bee meetings. Would be good for a few laughs. I have had people wanting me to pollinate their small orchard over a hundred miles away with a couple hives. Also surprised when they find out a fee is charged for pollination. Don't you get the honey they say! Then they want to come and get a couple hives and then bring back after pollination in their car, mini van or pickup . I have always got hives for sale which I offer. Maybe others on the list will give their observations & comments? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:25:17 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Hive availability for small growers > Do beekeepers find it difficult to provide > a small number of hives to small growers? Yes. a) The labor and trouble required to "move hives" means that someone who wants only 3 hives must pay much more per hive than someone who wants 30 or 60 hives, if the beekeeper is to hope to break even, let alone (gasp!) make a profit. b) Sure, it would be great if a group of growers could ban together, get organized, and at least arrange for delivery of hives at the same time to several places near each other, but I've never seen or heard of this happening myself. > Is the fact that they only need a handful of hives a > barrier to them getting them? Not if they seek out a small beekeeper who might not even have a truck or trailer. If the beekeeper had someone who provided the truck, and helped with the heavy lifting (the beekeeper would seal the hives beforehand) in the middle of the night, small growers and small beekeepers could both benefit. A group of growers could even rent a lift-gate truck, which would be ideal for a small move. > Does demand for hives from large growers mean that > there are no hives available? It is more a function of "agreements". I take my hives every year to the same orchards. I will likely do so until I die. We have a very long-term agreement. Others have year-to-year agreements, but their bees are "reserved" long before spring. > Is it mainly hobbyist or part-time beekeepers who can help? Sure they can, see above as to why they may not want to at present. > Do these growers tend to keep a few hives themselves? Maybe some growers do. Any grower could. One problem is that the bees need to be moved out of crops before they are sprayed, and most "growers" don't have good forage to support bee colonies. Growers have created massive areas of monoculture, where bees would starve if left "near the crop". jim (I had a few hives, and lots of theories about beekeeping, but now I have lots of hives, and no theories at all.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:50:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: Hive availability for small growers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with them, my apiary services the small farmer in Jackson County, West Virginia. These yards stay active YEAR round in good weather. When my bees aren't there the farmer notices it big time. Their crops don't get near the pollination when my apiary is low on hives. They come to me saying "were are my bees" :-) its good to know these fine folks also. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:06:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brent Farler Subject: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Have any of the test application methods for Sucrose Octanoate included the use of an electrostatic sprayer. Given the challenges of getting good direct contact coverage this might me interesting technique to look at. Electrostatic sprayers are used in the horticulture industry to get better coverage. The charged spray particles are attracted to all sides of the leaves and not just where gravity or spray direction takes them. Also, results in reduced usage of spray due to more uniform coverage. Brent Farler This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:08:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Drones are the Joker in the Deck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow - I will tape your reply to the wall as a reminder of your excellence in being genetically knowledgeable! I AM DELIGHTED WITH YOUR ANSWER. Is not it a shame that 99% of the readers of your remarks will "trash" them because they are still practicing "Daddy's methods of beekeeping"? Chuck, BEEKEEPING needs TEACHERS - Please continue to help! Your explanation about queen alleles was great. However, let us NOT worry about queen shipment to Canada; but, rather, to educate the great number of queen "producers" in this country into queen BREEDERS. I dare not say any more; but, after my death, I think that artificial insemination of queens will be well accepted by all, rather than field insemination of a queen today being impregnated by "every boy up and down the street". 'Nough Said George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:39:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Sucrose Octanoate Esters (S.O.E.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brent said: Have any of the test application methods for Sucrose Octanoate included the use of an electrostatic sprayer. Given the challenges of getting good direct contact coverage this might me interesting technique to look at. I will pass on the info Brent to those testing. The burgess fogger did not work according to Dadant I have been told due to the sucrose octanoate burning and stinking. Any other suggestions from the list on methods to use SOE without removing every frame and spraying bees or a better application method other than simply spraying from a common one gallon sprayer (such as an electrostatic sprayer as Brent suggested)? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:04:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Old Extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What type of treatment would be required to safely use a galvanized > extractor (assuming no rust)? Karen A food grade epoxy can be used to coat the extractor tank. Also I think if you check at most sheet metal shops they would fabricate a stainlees steel tank to replace your galvanized one. Kelley might also fabricate you a tank. Cost might be the limiting factor. You can likely buy a used stainless extractor for less than reworking a galvanized tank. Then sell the old extractor, they usually bring $50.00 to $100.00 Marc Studebaker :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:11:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Old Extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What type of treatment would be required to safely use a galvanized > extractor (assuming no rust)? AFAIK, there is no risk associated with using galvanized extractors as long as you store them away from water and high humidity, and/or clean them properly before and after use. Many people have used galvanized tanks for water and other food purposes over the past century and not suffered for it. Somehow, now, people think they are dangerous. The only possible danger I can see is if you were to allow moisture to accumulate in the machine and the honey turned to mead, then vinegar and the acid etched off a lot of zinc, then you were to use that machine without washing it. Assuming the tub is clean to start, the first honey to hit the sides sticks to the metal, and stays there until you wash the machine -- in my experience anyhow. The rest of the honey -- the honey you get out of the drain -- runs down over that original honey coating and never contacts the sheet metal. As far as I know the main thing about stainless steel (SS) is that is pretty well idiot proof. You can store SS equipment in moisture and abuse it, and nothing will come of that. ... And SS is also pretty. As for the iron reel in old galvanized extractors (and lots of SS ones too), assuming the reel is washed clean before use and not allowed to rust much, there is no danger from that, Rust is edible AFAIK, and iron is harmless, too in small amounts, although significant amounts of either will flavour and/or colour the honey. No reasonably clean operator is ever going to get that amount of rust and iron into honey, since a clean reel -- even one with a,little rust -- gets coated and sealed with honey the first time a load is spun. Probably the biggest risk in extractors is in the lead solder (recent work suggests that there is no tolerance for *any* lead in human diets) that was used in both galvanized and SS extractors until quite recently, but, again, the solder gets coated with honey and is buried in honey down in the cracks until the machine is washed. Just don't drink the washdown water and you should be just fine. (I can just imagine some mead makers sweating, now). Personally I would not hesitate to use a galvanized extractor, just the way it is. I did -- for many years, and I'll bet that half this list, or more, is using one, or has used one recently. As for epoxy coatings, etc., they chip, flake and scratch, look awful, and wind up getting into the honey. You're better off just cleaning the old machine and using it the way it is. Nobody has ever proven that there is any risk -- again, AFAIK. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com Standard disclaimer: No guarantees. What do I know? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:25:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D Thompson Subject: Re: Old Extractors Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nobody's mentioned wax After all honey is naturally stored in beeswax After 4 years I thought I should touch-up the coating but after a careful inspection I didn't even fire up the torch, it was still good Yes its hard to do a good job on the bottom, you are standing on your head (wax is applied "flat" with propane torch) dave :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:27:01 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Old Extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "allen dick" " Probably the biggest risk in extractors is in the lead solder (recent work > suggests that there is no tolerance for *any* lead in human diets) that was > used in both galvanized and SS extractors until quite recently, but, again, > the solder gets coated with honey and is buried in honey down in the cracks > until the machine is washed. Just don't drink the washdown water and you > should be just fine. " In UK, lead is regarded very seriously - affects the mental ability of chldren for example. My old galvanised extractors and settling tanks had very pointy bottom joints sealed with solder and very difficult to clean as, even if washed well, the water did not drain out easily and those joints were to dry out still covered in a fine layer of acidic substances. IMHO no Food Standards Inspector is going to be too impressed to find galvanised tanks still being used for honey, however well maintained. Beekeepers do have to move with the times - at least a bit - occasionally. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:17:50 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate Esters (S.O.E.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" Any other suggestions from the list on methods to use SOE without removing > every frame and spraying bees or a better application method other than > simply spraying from a common one gallon sprayer (such as an electrostatic > sprayer as Brent suggested)?" This is ground evidently well explored by those doing the work but so desparately important that I will call up one other principle perhaps already discarded. Fix a gadget permanently to the front of each hive that covers the entrance with a curtain of fine wicks connected to a header tank , so that when newly emerged bess (carrying varoa ) take first flight they all get some SOE. Aim: an ineffcient, slow but persistent treatment that might prevent mites ever building up a large population. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 06:07:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Todd Subject: Re: Drones are the Joker in the Deck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The points that Allen and John Harbo make match my casual observations in several top bar hives this past season. I had four TBH's running this past summer, all with (supposedly) hygienic queens. Towards the end of the season (their first and only), all four were showing serious mite loads (phoretic mites visible on many workers) and attendant symptoms (k-wing, shriveled wings, crawlers, loss of vigor, etc.). Since no foundation was used beyond the initial four frame nucs installed into the TBH's, the bulk of brood rearing was 'au natural' - totally on bee-drawn comb, and very "droney". The differences in drone populations in the TBH's compared to Langstroths was quite noticeable - I'd estimate 3 times that found in a Langstroth on foundation. After looking at the varroa population curves at the URL in Allen's post, it became obvious that the drones in my TBH's really were the primary issue. For every 5% increase in drone populations, mite loads increase an average of 50%. (!!!) Based on my observations, and the varroa/drone connections shown in the model, it would seem that controlling drone levels within a hive would have profound effect on varroa levels - all else being equal. It would also seem that culling any old, droney comb would be extremely advisable, given the effect drone populations have on varroa levels. Some wonderings aloud: 1 ) Does anyone know if any breeders have focused on lowering drone percentages (and can it be done by breeding)? 2) Similarly, I wonder if part of the success attributed to small cell (4.9, etc.) could be lowered drone populations as well as smaller drone size? 3) Has anyone had any measurable success in varroa control by using the drone foundation/freezer method exclusively? Regards, Todd. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:10:08 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Drones are the Jokers in the Deck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi George & All, > However, let us NOT worry about queen shipment to Canada; but, rather, to > educate the great number of queen "producers" in this country into queen > BREEDERS. > > I dare not say any more; but, after my death, I think that artificial > insemination of > queens will be well accepted by all, rather than field insemination of a > queen today > being impregnated by "every boy up and down the street". > I am sure glad that these statements above are only an opinion and not what will transpire. There will always be beekeepers, like myself, who Breed their own queens, in the open, locally to keep an acclimated stock of honey bees suited for the location that they keep bees. In my opinion, I think those breeding queens need to take a more holistic or integrated approach instead of singling out certain genes that are only taken out of the whole. More will be lost than will be gained by using A.I. or I.I., it will be like throwing the baby out with the bath water. With that said there is nothing wrong with maintaining a pure strain of honey bees but A.I. and I.I. need not be employed to do this. However, let us NOT worry about queen shipment to Canada; but, rather, to educate the great number of people who "KEEP BEES" in this country into "BEEKEEPERS" by teaching them to rear and mate their own queens. This along with individual beekeepers sharing stock with each other a more diverse genetic stock of honey bees might be maintained in the USA and elsewhere. Jokers make life more fun and complete. d:~)> Disclaimer; only an opinion. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:11:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Cleaning equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There have been several comments concerning how to clean extractors and other equipment, and several have commented on the difficulty of getting rid of propolis, wax and hard honey residues. A trick I learned from this list is to use hot vegetable oil. Buy the least expensive you can, sold by the gallon in food discount stores such as Sam's Club, Wal Mart, etc. Heat a couple of cups as hot as you can without smoking, put on a good pair of kitchen gloves, get a large kitchen sponge soaked with the hot oil, and coat the equipment. ALL the propolis, wax, and other residues come off like magic! I am told, but have no personal expertise, that the hot oil emulsifies the material, allowing it to be easily rinsed and restored to new-looking condition. However the mechanism, it really works. Even my Kelley wax melter, absolutely coated with hard propolis, comes out looking like new! Try it, you will like it! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:47:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: Re: Drones are the Joker in the Deck In-Reply-To: <200311121225.hACCNMeF006028@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------------------------------ >The differences in drone populations in the TBH's compared to >Langstroths was quite noticeable - I'd estimate 3 times that >found in a >Langstroth on foundation. What is the history of the packages? Did you requeen? >Some wonderings aloud: >1) Does anyone know if any breeders have focused on lowering >drone >percentages (and can it be done by breeding)? In my observations drone number levels and queen viability are closely related. Disease and drone raising increase when a queen nears the end of her useful life. This would be a natural reaction to prepare for swarming. I believe we will find a link between queen viability, honey production, and disease suppression in a hive. One result of a nonviable queen in a hive isolated from mites, foulbrood, and such is disappearing disease. The specific link I am investigating may not be the key. However there is something linking queen viability and hive performance which cannot be ignored. Tom Shippensburg, Pa :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:11:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Queens imports in Canada In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > However, let us NOT worry about queen shipment to > Canada; but, rather, to > > educate the great number of queen "producers" in > this country into queen > > BREEDERS. > However, let us NOT worry about queen shipment to > Canada; but, rather, to > educate the great number of people who "KEEP BEES" > in this country into > "BEEKEEPERS" by teaching them to rear and mate their > own queens. Please do not worry so much. A bit of humility never hearts when exchanging with neighbours... and others. It seems Canada has beekeepers and breeders good enough to have enviable reputation even outside North America. By the way, since Canada is ready to import queens from the USA (tackled by SHB and AHB) I do not understand why Canada do not open borders to European queens where there are some high class breedeers as well and no SHB and almost no AHB (at least for medium and north western european countries). It would also prevent the USA beekeepers to worry to much. Hervé ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:57:13 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Hervé & All, > By the way, since Canada is ready to import queens > from the USA (tackled by SHB and AHB) I do not > understand why Canada do not open borders to European > queens where there are some high class breedeers as > well I do not understand why Canada does not utilize their own high class breeders of which I am sure there are plenty of. Also, I would think that breeding and mating queens to improve ones own stock would and should be a fundamental practice in being a beekeeper. In my opinion, beekeepers are not really keeping their bees if they are constantly changing the stock they keep by requeening from a stock far away. If beekeepers were to learn to breed their own queens they would become better beekeepers on many levels. Disclaimer; only an opinion. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:54:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Queens imports in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You are quite correct Keith, Canada has many very good queen breeders. As you state, selecting and breeding is fundamental to good (successfull) beekeeping. Here in northern Quebec I can readily buy queens from Hawai, but are they adapted for either minus 35oC weather outside or 5 months of complete darkness inside during our winters. I believe in locally produced stock with occassional imports of very selected lines. Peter, who is busing moving bees into total darkness. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Malone" To: Sent: November 12, 2003 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Queens imports in Canada > Hi Hervé & All, > I do not understand why Canada does not utilize their own high class > breeders of which I am sure there are plenty of. Also, I would think that > breeding and mating queens to improve ones own stock would and should be a > fundamental practice in being a beekeeper. In my opinion, beekeepers are not > really keeping their bees if they are constantly changing the stock they > keep by requeening from a stock far away. If beekeepers were to learn to > breed their own queens they would become better beekeepers on many levels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:19:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Queens imports in Canada In-Reply-To: <200311112343.hABNhheD018177@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I do not understand why Canada does not utilize > their own high class > breeders of which I am sure there are plenty of. > Also, I would think that breeding and mating queens > to improve ones own stock would and should > be a fundamental practice in being a beekeeper. I am afraid they are not so many since we are only about 30 Millions inhabitants in Canada (I believe). So the beekeepers pool is not as large as in larger countries with warmer climates. Moreover, population is dispatched on a large area. Consequently, in practice, let's say I can rely on 4 to 5 excellent breeders in Quebec and in Ontario. This does not involve a lot of genetic diversity, does it? And if I constraint breeding to my few hives, consanguinity will soon appear. I can understand one wants to conduct his apiary according to his own philosopy, but I would find it is a pity to miss the train offered by best breeders around the world, unless there are good health and safety reasons (caution principle). Just considere the example of the Buckfast bee to enlight my opinion. Finally, I doubt autarky is good way to developp efficiency and knowledge. Anyway, if one can import genetic diversity, it does not prevent others from breeding in autarky. May be those two approaches can complement each other since breeders need some pure races for hybridization. Hervé ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:13:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Mitegone mite treatment Thinking of trying the MiteGone treatment next spring, Are there any users of this product out there and are you pleased with it? Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:09:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Old Extractors >>there is no risk associated with using galvanized extractors Thanks allen, I'm getting tierd of people stepping on my good old reliable!! My 36 frame Jones has seen alot of honey. It will extract the finest honey just as a SS unit will, Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:03:12 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Honey Pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/11/03 05:02:56 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > Besides using "plastic" foundation, has > anybody any wise ideas as to how I mite filter out the floating wires > from the honey before they get sucked into my pump? I suggest you don't use metal wires. Nylon fishing line works well. You don't need to embed it if you 'wire' the frames so the line is flat against the face of foundation. The bees include it in the drawn comb. If used in brood combs the bees don't miss the cells with exposed wire as they do with metal. I don't know how your pump will get on with it but it should be kinder than metal wire. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:14:14 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter, > I believe in locally produced stock with occassional imports of > very selected lines. > This was what I was trying to state with my reply to George's post about A.I. and I.I. Really though, if beekeepers in your area trade genetic material it would be a very very long time before inbreeding becomes a problem if ever. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:32:48 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Hervé, > I am afraid they are not so many since we are only > about 30 Millions inhabitants in Canada (I believe). > So the beekeepers pool is not as large as in larger > countries with warmer climates. Still there are plenty of beekeepers to maintain a stock that will not have inbred problems. > Moreover, population is dispatched on a large area. > Consequently, in practice, let's say I can rely on 4 > to 5 excellent breeders in Quebec and in Ontario. This > does not involve a lot of genetic diversity, does it? > All that would be needed is three distinct lines. > And if I constraint breeding to my few hives, > consanguinity will soon appear. > Not if you divide your stock into three distinct lines and maintain the lines separate to mate from. > I can understand one wants to conduct his apiary > according to his own philosopy, but I would find it is > a pity to miss the train offered by best breeders > around the world, unless there are good health and > safety reasons (caution principle). Just considere the > example of the Buckfast bee to enlight my opinion. > So infuse new DNA now and then if it makes you happy. There have been others who have done this and wish they never had. > Finally, I doubt autarky is good way to developp > efficiency and knowledge. > Depends on your gaols. Self sufficient I think can be a good thing, I myself do not want SHB to make it to Alaska and if beekeepers up here were more self sufficient in the past we probably would never had gotten Vorroa. It's to late for Varroa but we still have time to prevent SHB from entering. > Anyway, if one can import > genetic diversity, it does not prevent others from > breeding in autarky. May be those two approaches can > complement each other since breeders need some pure > races for hybridization. > This can be accomplished in an autarky system. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:48:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Drones are the Jokers in the Deck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Malone" George said: > However, let us NOT worry about queen shipment to Canada; but, rather, to > educate the great number of queen "producers" in this country into queen BREEDERS. Big difference in my opinion between the queen breeder doing queen breeding and many queen producers or in other words those which are interested in only filling queen orders with mated queens. I have had good luck with queens from queen "producers" and bad luck at other times but queens from "queen breeders" I have always been happy with. Both fill a need in the U.S. but there is a difference as George points out!. Keith said: There will always be beekeepers, like myself, who Breed their own queens, in the open, locally to keep an acclimated stock of honey bees suited for the location that they keep bees. Almost all production queens are open mated but to insure the drone you want is mated when dealing with "breeder" queens instrumental insemination is a must. A few years back over a thousand queens were raised from a single Marla Spivak breeder queen my partner purchased. Open mated would simply not work. Keith said: In my opinion, I think those breeding queens need to take a more holistic or integrated approach instead of singling out certain genes that are only taken out of the whole. More will be lost than will be gained by using A.I. or I.I., it will be like throwing the baby out with the bath water. With that said there is nothing wrong with maintaining a pure strain of honey bees but A.I. and I.I. need not be employed to do this. I hope we can agree to disagree on the above! I find II (instrumental insemination) an invaluable tool for the professional queen breeder and researcher. To sum things up you can "never" be absolutely positive about which drone which has mated with the queen unless II is used . Period! Keith said; However, let us NOT worry about queen shipment to Canada; but, rather, to educate the great number of people who "KEEP BEES" in this country into "BEEKEEPERS" by teaching them to rear and mate their own queens. I have been able to buy better queens than I ever raised myself but enjoy attempting to raise queens. Unlike Keith I like getting queens from several queen breeders rather than trying to raise queens from a closed population (which I did for many years). I do wholeheartedly agree with Keith that all beekeepers should try to raise and mate queens at some point in the beekeeping experience to complete their beekeeping knowledge. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:44:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I do not understand why Canada does not utilize their own high class > breeders... They do, and many find the local supply sufficient. The problem is that many do not, for a variety of very good and valid reasons. Read on... > If beekeepers were to learn to breed their own queens they would > become better beekeepers on many levels. That's true, but many who are excellent at queen raising still decide they need to buy a few thousand queens from elsewhere, or get packages for replacement or increase *at the drop of a hat*, due to changing circumstances. Business beekeepers need maximum ability to respond quickly to constantly changing circumstances. Here is our experience. After proving we could improve our stock and be self-sufficient (at least in the short run over the few years we tried it), plus produce queens for sale, we decided one year that we needed to buy commercial packages and queens in quantity to expand suddenly to meet the demands of local seed growers. What we were able to buy was not nearly up to the standard of our own bees, but the price was right, and they could be had on relatively short notice (compared to slowly building up) -- and it made us money. While we were doing okay with the smaller operation, we were subject to much greater risk, and had much lower income. Looking back, it is clear that our decision was a good one, and making that decision allowed us to retire early, vs. the likelihood that we might never have gotten to where we could afford retirement. An available (but limited and unnecessarily costly) supply of bulk bees was the key. It is hard to explain some of these factors to many hobby or sideline beekeepers, but for those of us who make bees our business, and cannot afford to miss opportunities or take chances on supply the need for open trade is obvious. In a country like Canada, with many millions of acres of good forage that have scarcely a honey bee to be seen, anything that impedes growth of the industry by making the job more difficult and/or risky needs to be confronted. To answer you first question, we do, but they are too few and make to little money after working too hard, especially when there are others, much better situated, by climate and markets, to breed and produce queens and packages much more efficiently. Most of us in Canada are in honey making country, not good queen rearing country. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:44:17 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada Peter said: > I believe in locally produced stock with occasional imports of > very selected lines. That's fine, but Canadian commercial beekeepers need lots of queens, and earlier than they can be produced in Canada. In fact, ANY commercial beekeeper wants queens as early as possible. Also, one has to decide if one is in the: a) Pollination business b) Honey producing business c) Queen and Package business (a) and (b) are often semi-compatible with only minor compromises in most years, but (c) is rarely compatible with either (a) or (b). Sure, you could staff up and gear up to produce your own queens, but these days, people are so focused on a "core mission" that fully assembled woodenware, complete with frames loaded with foundation, are being ordered faster than the woodenware vendors can make them. One major vendor is working on a significant upgrade to their woodenware capital equipment to better satisfy this demand. jim (Who said "C'est la vie", only to have a friend reply "Ok, 'La Vie'", which many Canadians should find funny.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:26:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Self sufficient I think can be a good thing, I > myself do not want SHB to make it to Alaska and if beekeepers up here > were more self sufficient in the past we probably would never had > gotten Vorroa. It's to late for Varroa but we still have time to > prevent SHB from entering. In Alaska, I doubt that any of that really matters, since I'm assuming that beekeeping is pretty small scale, and there are no livelihoods at stake. Where beekeeping is a business, varroa and SHB are just minor problems to deal with, and less threatening than being cut off from economically important supplies. Self-sufficiency is a concept that went out with subsistence farming. Self-sufficiency sounds romantic, but it often means deprivation. We are now interdependant with, and competing with, the world. Usually the advantages outweight the downsides, and the result is an elevated standard of living that allows us time for hobbies, and time to dream about that perfect world where we would be totally self-reliant. All in a day's work. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:01:31 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith wrote > Depends on your gaols. Self sufficient I think can be a good thing, I myself > do not want SHB to make it to Alaska and if beekeepers up here were more > self sufficient in the past we probably would never had gotten Vorroa. It's > to late for Varroa but we still have time to prevent SHB from entering. If you have queen bees coming up from south of the 49th, then I suggest you insist that the queens be hand caught and hand escorted. There is a great volume of opinion that says that if this is done you will not transport SHB. Why? Firstly when you open up a hive, the SHB run down away from the light and into the dark corners. So it is nigh on impossible to escort a SHB when putting in the queen and escorts by hand. If an egg somehow got in the cage, then it would be criushed by the queen and escorts but I think the chances of an egg getting in with the queen and escorts is remote. Apparently eggs are very fragile. There is no current research on this but we are currently having research carried out in Australia looking at the hand caught, hand escorted queens. The battery type transporter where the queens are place in cages by themselves in a box and bees shaken in from a frame does present a risk. I have a report from a person in Canada who I respect who has told me that he has seen SHB in this type of shipping box. Even cages that are pre-escorted could present a risk as the SHB could run up into the mailing cage as the escorts are smoked up. So insist on hand caught and hand escorted and you shouldn' t have a problem. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 06:43:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >a) Pollination business >b) Honey producing business > > >(a) and (b) are often semi-compatible with only minor >compromises in most years, I pollinated apples for 20 years, supplying 400 - 600 colonies to the orchard. I found the difference between colonies I moved and colonies I didn't move to be way more than minor compromises. Every colony moved lost a super of honey...at today's prices that is about $45. The strong colonies lost enough strength to make a nuc...that's $60. The pollinators always had to be fed more for winter. I used to feed more than 30 drums of HFCS each fall, and now I feed less than 10...about $2. And then there's wintering. I always lost 10 to 15% more colonies of those that pollinated than those that didn't. So, for a $35 pollination fee, I could lose more than $100 in income. Hardly a minor compromise, wouldn't you say? I no longer pollinate apples, and couldn't be happier. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:59:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada, and elsewhere MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi James and all, I am not against imports. We purchased around 500 queens from Hawai this spring so as to have lots of colonies for the blueberries. They are a lot better than many years ago and they do the job required. We produce and purchase selected regional stock later so as to have colonies that are more suited to our climate and disease problems. Allen will recall that when the Canada/U.S. border was open, western beekeepers often sent their selected/best queens down to California, after the honey season, to be used as breeders for the following season. So there was a selection of imported queens. Can this be done with the new regulations? There is only one beekeeper in Quebec who wants the mainland border open immediately. The rest of us are prepared to wait. The majority of Quebec beekeepers try to keep their bees far away fom the U.S. border as it is known that there are a few large U.S. pollination outfits that finish their season a few kms. south of the province. But what is a border for bees?? Peter, now in one foot of snow (two feet indoors) ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Fischer" To: > Peter said: > > > I believe in locally produced stock with occasional imports of > > very selected lines. > > That's fine, but Canadian commercial beekeepers need lots of > queens, and earlier than they can be produced in Canada. > > In fact, ANY commercial beekeeper wants queens as early as > possible. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:46:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lennard Pisa Subject: bumblebee dissection for Locustacaris Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed dear all, does anyone out there have a protocol/how-to-do-it scheme for the dissection of bumblebee trachea/air sacks to find Locustacaris? regards, Lennard _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:59:26 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada Mike said: > I pollinated apples for 20 years... the difference between colonies > I moved and colonies I didn't move to be way more than minor compromises. > Every colony moved lost a super of honey...at today's prices that > is about $45. Our productive blooms are a tad later, I guess. Perhaps the earlier spring here in VA results in less overlap between "good" nectar sources and apple bloom. You are near WayTheHeckNorth, VT right? > The strong colonies lost enough strength to make a nuc...that's $60. Well, hold on there... aren't you counting the impact twice here? I can understand that they had to be fed (more), and missed out on some of the early spring flow, but if the colonies lost strength, doesn't that mean that they were not provisioned well enough, and also were not fed? > The pollinators always had to be fed more for winter. Same question as above. You now appear to be counting the same impact 3 times. > And then there's wintering. I always lost 10 to 15% more colonies of > those that pollinated than those that didn't. ... counting the impact 4 times? Of course, if you had to do all of the above to most colonies, and still had losses, I guess it is a valid way of looking at it. > So, for a $35 pollination fee, I could lose more than $100 in income. > Hardly a minor compromise, wouldn't you say? I'm not sure I agree with your bookkeeping methodology, but maybe you have a season that is 99% "spring flow" with very little summer flow. Yes, hive top feeders are almost a required item if the apple bloom is "extended" by cool temps or rain, but aside from the problem of "extra feeding", I have not noticed the other negative impacts, certainly not the over-wintering losses. But yeah, bees can starve on apples. From what they get out of the deal, it is a wonder that they forage apple trees at all. I do know that if the grower does not mow his understory before hive deployment, the bees will ignore the apple trees and go for nearly anything ELSE they can find. jim (So, like, where are we going? ...And what's with the handbasket?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:17:14 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Drones are the Jokers in the Deck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, > A few years back over a thousand queens were raised from a single Marla > Spivak breeder queen my partner purchased. Open mated would simply not work. > What has been the aftermath of those queens from Spivak that your partner purchased? Are there any progeny? . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:37:29 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim & All, > a) Pollination business > b) Honey producing business > c) Queen and Package business > > (a) and (b) are often semi-compatible with only minor > compromises in most years, but (c) is rarely compatible > with either (a) or (b). > I have two package bee suppliers that I use when I bring bees up here for me and others I sell to, one utilizes a,b. and c and the other utilizes b and c. Kind of blows holes in your standard. I think you might be surprised how versatile beekeepers can be. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:24:01 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada, and elsewhere Peter Keating said: > when the Canada/U.S. border was open, western beekeepers often > sent their selected/best queens down to California, after the > honey season, to be used as breeders for the following season. > So there was a selection of imported queens. Can this be done > with the new regulations? The US regulations remain unchanged from what they were long before that uncharacteristic example of poor Canadian marksmanship (apparently, a self-inflicted shotgun wound to the foot), so the same exact paperwork would be required to "import" the queens from Canada to the USA. Don't ask me which forms, who to send them to, or who to call, all I know is that the USDA department that claims authority over such things is named "APHIS", and their bee regs are older than most all of the subscribers to this mailing list. jim ("Ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what it can STOP doing TO you.") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:46:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Drones are the Jokers in the Deck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith asks: What has been the aftermath of those queens from Spivak that your partner purchased? Are there any progeny? What was purchased was a hygienic breeder queen which was instrumentally inseminated with drone semen from another line of bees which were hygienic. Along with several other breeder queens two outfits which had crashed because of varroa mites were rebuilt in Texas. The daughter queens of the Marla Spivak breeder queen were very hygienic when tested by the 24 hour brood removal test. Records show OVER a thousand queens were raised ,mated and installed from her before she turned into a drone layer. Grafting was done every day of the week but only every three days from her for about a six week period. As I said on BEE-L years ago "when a bee is bred which can survive varroa untreated, produce honey and winter great all commercial beekeeper will convert over in short order." We are still waiting for such a bee! Those queens and bees raised from the Marla Spivak breeder queen are long gone now. Since than there has been many different lines due to requeening. I leave the serious queen breeding up to the experts such as "Ohio Queen Breeders, etc.) and the queen producing up to all beekeepers which want to raise and sell mated queens with the only information being: Hype about the queens and "These queens are open mated and will be replaced if they arrive dead"! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:29:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Pollination Sucks... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> The strong colonies lost enough strength to make a nuc...that's $60. > ...aren't you counting the impact twice here? Not really. In our experience, we, too, found that moving, with attendant potential loss of brood, and the monoculture characteristic of the pollination areas, and overcrowding necessary to get good seed set, 1.) weakened our bees, 2.) produced less honey, 3.) left the brood chambers emptier than if they ahd been on a good flow. Moreover, 4.) we lost more hives in winter. > Same question as above. You now appear to be counting the same > impact 3 times. How do you figure that? 1.) One super less surplus honey, 2.) no nucs, 3.) a need to feed the hives up in fall due to empty briood chambers, and 4.) subsequent winter loss, are four separate losses -- albeit arising from the same cause. >> So, for a $35 pollination fee, I could lose more than $100 in income. >> Hardly a minor compromise, wouldn't you say? > > I'm not sure I agree with your bookkeeping methodology, I do. All beekeeping (not bookeeping, tho') is local, and there are pollination jobs that build hives up, and some that wear them out. If you are lucky enough to be paid to take your hives to sites where they thrive, many of us envy you. As far back as the mid-nineties, Andy was saying (in regards alfalfa, but also other crops in other messages) that "Using honeybees for Alfalfa seed pollination is " good farming practice, but is a BAD beekeeping practice. Real beekeepers pollinate alfalfa for the cash flow, bee locations, and bad judgement." See http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9605D&L=bee-l&P=R3972 When we polinated canola, we got over $100 for our pollination, and we needed it to justify the wear on our bees. Now the same job is paying as much as $150, and there is no huge line of beekkeepers waiting to sign contracts. some who are pollinating now plan to stay home next year. Mike's accounting is sound. (Divide my numbers by 1.3008 to get US dollars. (A few minutes ago, at least). allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com PS How do people like the changes to the BEE-L page (below)? Write me, not the list with comments. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:24:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:37 AM 11/13/2003, you wrote: >Hi Jim & All, > > > a) Pollination business > > b) Honey producing business > > c) Queen and Package business > > > > (a) and (b) are often semi-compatible with only minor > > compromises in most years, but (c) is rarely compatible > > with either (a) or (b). I suspect the comparability depends greatly on your geographical location. In locations where the major honey flow is separated by several months from early spring (the big queen and package business time) they are likely much more compatible. Those area where the flow coincides with the spring package business is likely the least compatible. So what you state does not hold true for all areas. Fortunately I'm in an area where they are much more compatible and even a late april or early may nuc can be built up in time to produce honey with the best of them in the same year, so there is also plenty of time for the parent hives to recover before the flow. In fact, many years if you don't split (or use some other swarm control) hives get strong too fast and swarm before the flow anyways. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:52:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada, and elsewhere MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jim Said: The US regulations remain unchanged, so the same exact paperwork would be required to "import" the queens from Canada to the USA. Canadian Food Inspection Agency is the equivalent to APHIS in USA. International trade regulations are followed by all parties. I have been involved few times in import/export of bee eggs and semen between USA/Canada. Once you contact the authorities in both countries, you get a list of all requirements based on current regulations to get permits for import/export bees. If a person does not follow these regulations, this person will be subject to a legal action by either government. medhat :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:58:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Response to Jim Fischer's 11/5 comments Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, PayneT@missouri.edu, rosinbio@yahoo.com, barry@birkey.com, ckstarr99@hotmail.com, bayer@sbceo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dear BEE-L subscribers, On 11/5/03 Jim Fischer responded (in part) to my earlier messages, as follows: I had written: > With super care, a pure sucrose solution yields zero recruits... He responded: I object to the presentation of the above claim as fact. It remains to be proven. Evidence at hand contradicts it. Until it is proven, it will remain an extraordinary claim. As I have pointed out before, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Claims which are asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. *********** He also wrote: Perhaps part of the problem here is that the results cited are "published" only on a website, in a section called "Point Of View", along with a wide range of opinions from the extreme fringes of beekeeping, in net effect comprising a "Gilligan's Island of science". The entire group of "views" can thus be dismissed as "unpublished", as they have attempted to avoid the peer review process. ************ Quite obviously, in his apparent eagerness to dismiss the essence of my postings, Mr. Fischer has not digested material in those earlier postings, such as those on 9/16 (1:59 p.m.), 9/19 (4:57 a.m.), and 9/19 (10:35 a.m.). Neither has he apparently accessed the URLs included in those postings. If he had, he would know by now that the evidence he keeps demanding is published in our double peer-reviewed 1990 Columbia University Press book, ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY. He would also know that the URLs I have presented contain original peer-reviewed publications, with evidence intact. I will be happy to mail him a copy of our 1990 book for $20, postage paid (e-bay price at last listing of $80), provided he will promise to read it. (I already privately sent him a full set of comments by established scientists in various fields that pertain to that book and other publications (all peer-reviewed). As indicated earlier, in my postings I have striven to direct people to the information that relates to the issues at hand. As for extraordinary claims, a little bug (in Mr. Fischer's terms) such as a bee could hardly have a "language" -- an extraordinary claim. If that was already a "fact," why have millions been spent this past century trying (but failing repeatedly) to obtain that necessary "extraordinary evidence" (Mr. Fischer's term)? And, as mentioned earlier, beekeepers have yet to benefit from all that expenditure. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************* * "People have a right to their opinions -- * but that doesn't mean all opinions are of equal value." * * Pot Shot #9108 by Ashleigh Brilliant, used by permission ************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:19:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: State Apiary Program for 2004 in Possible Danger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit State Apiary Program for 2004 in Possible Danger The proposed cut of 9% in the state budget for 2004 may well jeopardize the state apiary Program. Gus Douglas handled this year's 9% reduction by cutting programs in order to retain permanent staff. This resulted in beekeepers losing hive treatments for mites, part-time inspectors and reduction in travel by George Clutter and Paul Poling our state inspectors. Both Bob Clarke and Gordon Mead of the WV Beekeepers Association have talked to Janet Fisher, Commissioner of Agriculture about this situation. No decisions have been made yet. When asked beekeepers could do she said, " Contact your legislators. They are the ones who control the Budget." The President of the Jackson County Beekeepers also requests that all farmers please contact the legislators about this on behalf of the beekeepers. Without the bees many crops and trees would not get the best pollination. Write your elected lawmakers to save our apiary inspectors. Look up there email address here WV Legislature :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:59:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada, and elsewhere MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Jim Said: The US regulations remain unchanged, so the > same exact paperwork would be required to "import" the queens from > Canada to the USA. What are the rules these days? Last time I sent a load of bees to the USA, I just called the Alberta Provincial Apiarist. He called the state apiarists for the states through which the load was to pass, and away it went. I don't recall signing any papers, but maybe I did. That was a while back. The time before, I don't recall, since it was a load of package bees we sent, and the US buyer was trucking them and did all the paperwork -- if any. I heard some talk, a while ago, of restricting bees from Canada going to the US, but nothing further. At present, queen producers in Ontario sell into the US. I gather this takes place without problems, so I'm wondering what certification or inspection -- if any -- is required? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:34:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > The strong colonies lost enough strength to make a nuc...that's $60. > >Well, hold on there... aren't you counting the impact twice here? >I can understand that they had to be fed (more), and missed out on >some of the early spring flow, but if the colonies lost strength, >doesn't that mean that they were not provisioned well enough, and >also were not fed? Not at all. I'm talking about strong well provisioned colonies. My yards were 2 - 10 miles from the orchard. I marked the strong colonies when I got them ready for the orchard. After moving them in, I could do my spring splits...it's easier when the bees are in the orchard, because they're all there together, and there isn't any driving time between yards. Anyway, a significant number of the strong colonies lost enough bees...lost on their first flight??...that the hives could no longer be split. I'm also not talking about just early spring flows, lost due to moving the colonies. The bees are setback for the whole summer...unless there is one hell of a flow. > > The pollinators always had to be fed more for winter. > >Same question as above. You now appear to be counting the same >impact 3 times. What can I say. All the honey was in the supers, and not much in the brood nest. The beekeeper who took over the contract just fed the most syrup his bees ever needed...and he says his bees are still light, while I fed about 3 lbs average per hive. > > And then there's wintering. I always lost 10 to 15% more colonies of > > those that pollinated than those that didn't. > >... counting the impact 4 times? Of course, if you had to do all of the >above to most colonies, and still had losses, I guess it is a valid way >of looking at it. Well, if pollination impacts my bottom line in four ways, then I have to count all of them. 1. They lost a super of honey. 2. Strong colonies lost enough strength to make up a nuc. 3. The bees had to be fed significantly more syrup than colonies that weren't moved. 4. The pollinators never wintered as well. Four negative impacts on my income...all arising from moving the bees into and then out of the orchard. > > So, for a $35 pollination fee, I could lose more than $100 in income. > > Hardly a minor compromise, wouldn't you say? > >I'm not sure I agree with your bookkeeping methodology, but maybe you >have a season that is 99% "spring flow" with very little summer flow. No, we have a good progression of flown throughout the summer and into the fall...135 lb average in '02. >Yes, hive top feeders are almost a required item if the apple bloom is >"extended" by cool temps or rain, but aside from the problem of "extra >feeding", I have not noticed the other negative impacts, certainly not >the over-wintering losses. I never ran my colonies that close to starvation. I always left them plenty heavy. Any that were seriously light were well fed before pollination. Try pollinating with part of a yard, and leaving the rest of the bees in the yard. I bet you see a difference. As far as not seeing a difference in wintering...you're WayTheHeck south of WhereTheHeck...right? Where the ground is brown all winter? >But yeah, bees can starve on apples. From what they get out of the deal, >it is a wonder that they forage apple trees at all. I do know that if >the grower does not mow his understory before hive deployment, the bees >will ignore the apple trees and go for nearly anything ELSE they can find. I guess it depends on the size of the orchard. I pollinated Chazy Orchards...advertised as the largest Macintosh orchard in the world...their words. With all they have to do anyway, keeping the understory mowed is next to impossible. Provide good bees, and the crop will get pollinated...no matter what the understory. My bees usually gained some weight in the orchard. > jim (So, like, where are we going? > ...And what's with the handbasket?) I'm goin' to bed...I have my last two yards to wrap tomorrow, it's snowing like mad outside, and I need to get an early start. Mike...farther north than most would like...just closer to heaven for me. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: State Apiary Program for 2004 in Possible Danger "It is important to understand that when more people lived on farms and more legislators were farmers, there was greater concern over agricultural problems. The chief reason for supporting state inspection of colonies has been the need to have an adequate supply of healthy bees for pollination. Apple growers, for example, have always been strong supporters of bee disease inspection programs because they need good colonies for pollination. State legislatures are not so agriculturally oriented today becauseso few of their members are farmers. Agriculture has been successful in the United States and food is abundant and cheap. As a result people don't worry about their food suply and there is less interest in agricultural problems, including bee inspection. In straight forward, simple terms this means that beekeepers must become their own inspectors. They must solve their own disease problems because there will probably never again be a strong inspection force in most states." - Roger Morse, "Bee Culture", March 1993. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:16:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: Winter Wrap MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Mike and all, I've been lurking here for about a year now, and I'm getting quite an education! I live in upstate NY, our winters are as bad as Canadian, so I was wondering what our northern neighbors use for a winter wrap. What material and the best way to apply it. Looking at some of the pictures I see online, it looks like some kind of black flexible blanket that's draped over the hive, cover and all! What is done for winter ventilation? And what is that black blanket? We had a bad winter here last year, every beekeeper I hear of, lost over half their hives. I came thru it with only one strong hive left- now I'm back to 6 and I'd hate to loss them. So any wintering tips would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance, Don Campbell Mohegan Lake, NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Palmer" To: Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 10:34 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Queens imports in Canada > > I'm goin' to bed...I have my last two yards to wrap tomorrow, it's > snowing like mad outside, and I need to get an early start. > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 06:32:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Queens imports in Canada, and elsewhere MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allen said: So I'm wondering what certification or inspection -- if any -- is required for import/export of bees? If there are no requirements for moving bees between USA and Canada, Why were Canadian beekeepers prosecuted for illegally bringing in queens from the USA? For sending queens from Ontario to USA, beekeepers have to present a health certificate and sign a request for exporting queens to USA. There is a fee to pay for export. You can contact APHIS or CFIA to get the list of requirements. medhat :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:39:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Pollination concerns (was Queens imports in Canada) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Michael, Allen & All, I thought about replying to this post yesterday and read and reread the comments to address a complex subject. I have put quite a bit of thought into the subject. First I can see and understand Michaels position. I don't quite understand Allen's, "pollination sucks". All beekeeping is local so the results Michael sees might not be the same for other beekeepers in other parts of the country. Pollination of apple's is actually a pollination which we like for a number of reason's (Missouri). The competition for the apple pollination is intense. We lost a 450 hive + orchard this spring by trying to raise the pollination fees by a couple dollars a hive in 2003. A beekeeper from another state came in but his bees were weak and we still had to bring in around a hundred hives to bail out the orchard owner (at a even higher fee because of a short load). The beekeeper was using an old army jeep with a forklift mast mounted on the jeep and the engine harmonic balancer flew off and went through the radiator. I am not putting down the beekeeper or his equipment but only pointing out that we have got at least two pieces of equipment for each job needed to place beehives in the orchard. A breakdown as serious as a blown motor will only stop us by a hour or two. Something to consider when hiring the beekeeper to do pollination. I believe my partner said we got the pollination contract back for next year. Michael said: I pollinated apples for 20 years, supplying 400 - 600 colonies to the orchard. I found the difference between colonies I moved and colonies I didn't move to be way more than minor compromises. Every colony moved lost a super of honey...at today's prices that is about $45. The strong colonies lost enough strength to make a nuc...that's $60. The pollinators always had to be fed more for winter. I used to feed more than 30 drums of HFCS each fall, and now I feed less than 10...about $2. And then there's wintering. I always lost 10 to 15% more colonies of those that pollinated than those that didn't. I can't argue and will not on Michaels observations but the above is not what we get. Everything depends on days of flying time. Three partial days or one great day (at King bloom) is all the orchard's want as better pollination causes better set and thinning problems. It is hard for the bees to store a whole lot when they only get a few days to fly. Michael said: So, for a $35 pollination fee, I could lose more than $100 in income. Many Larger beekeepers A. & B. catagory need cash flow. Apple pollination provides "cash flow" at a time of the year when little is going on. When honey prices are low competition for many types of pollination increases for A&B type beekeepers. When honey prices are up they are not as interested in doing pollination. The method of moving bees for pollination certainly enters in when considering pollination fees. Moving bees is easy for us and quick. Several beekeepers in our area still move hives into orchards by hand. Only an opinion: I hate to diagonsis a problem over the internet but suspect those hives Michael was bringing into the orchards were picking up pollen which was tainted with something sprayed by the grower before bloom or early bloom at least before the beehives were set in the apple orchard. Perhaps a herbacide on ground cover. Large orchard owners are always playing with sprays and different mixes of treatments. If Michael had described his apple orchard bee population problem, poor wintering of hives which had been used for apple pollination to the list as a question I would have suggested digging out a sample of apple pollen after the bees returned from the apple orchard and sending for testing. Many times each of the chemicals the orchard owner used prior to the bees entering the orchard might not hurt the bees but mixed together they might have made a mix which might not kill the hive but cause the type of low brood build up, low honey storage and poor wintering the next winter as bees ALWAYS prefer fresh pollen to old stored pollen from my experience. I may be way off base but those are my thoughts. Michael said: I no longer pollinate apples, and couldn't be happier. I am glad you did not say never because if the honey prices drop again to below the cost of production apple pollination might again seem attractive but perhaps out of reach if another beekeeper is doing the pollination. I would never turn down such a large apple pollination in our area less than 10 miles from home (unless the grower was killing my bees through improper spraying which is COMMON which many on the list will back me up on!). Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:16:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: (West Virginia) State Apiary Program for 2004 in Possible Dan ger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Chuck Norton offered a quote from Bee Culture penned by the late Dr. Roger Morse, in which Roger opined "there will probably never again be a strong inspection force in most states." Written in 1993, the New York State inspection program had recently been abolished by the state budget ax. Roger was a professor of apiculture at Cornell University (Ithaca, New York). Were he alive today, Roger would eat his words. It took an organized letter writing campaign by the New York State Beekeepers, an herculean organizational effort to get the seventeen regional associations and the state association alligned, and effective lobbying of state legislators in Albany to get the state inspection program reinstated. But it was done, and it took more than a few years. Not only was the NYS Honey Bee Inspection program reinstated, but an Apiary Industry Advisory Committee was formed (to advise state government and departments on beekeepers' concerns), and funding for two positions at Cornell (an extension position and an apiary technician) were also written into the state budget! The current inspection program suffered from nearly a decade hiatus and it has been a hard task getting back up to speed. The program lost a lot of its seasoned inspectors and records of who was keeping bees where fell woefully out of date. It is much harded starting from scratch than maintaining an extant program. My advice to West Virginia is to get organized NOW to retain your inspection program! I don't know the beekeeping scene in WV, but however many organizations there are, get on the same base and get your members writing letters. Arrange meetings with your state legislators, and yes, make political contributions to reelection campaigns! And when you are successful (politicians will not ignore a loud, unified voice), keep the pressure up! Continue to be familiar voices in politicians' mail boxes, keep the cards, letters and contributions coming. Seriously. New York's Govenor has not included the State Honey Bee Inspection program in ANY of his proposed budgets since it was reinstated 5 years ago. Continuing the program has required a vigilant campaign EACH YEAR to keep the program was running! It has been the Legislators who have supported the program, based on the groundswell of supportive requests they receive from the beekeepers who help elect and/or keep them in office! It CAN be done, but it requires coordination and continued pressure. I have always opined that beekeepers are political buffoons. We spend so much time arguing amongst ourselves that it's hard for Senators and Assemblymen and Governors to take us seriously. We're a small constituency to begin with, we can ill afford infighting. But if beekeepers can get together and get on the same base and speak with a unified voice, they can be heard! Aaron Morris - I'm a beekeeper and I vote! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:33:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Pollination Sucks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't quite understand Allen's, "pollination sucks". I was looking for a catchy subject line, that reflects the bad aspects of pollination. We all can see the good points. ($$$$$) Of course, some pollination, for some beekeepers, has nothing but pluses. For others, it is a totally bad experience. For us, it was fantastic. For our bees, it was a challenge. It all depends on what pollination, where, when, for whom, for how much, what alternatives there are, and the beekeeper. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:21:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Winter Wrap In-Reply-To: <001601c3aab1$75f241d0$6501a8c0@upstairs> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:16 AM 11/14/2003, Donald Campbell wrote: > I came thru it with only one strong hive left- now I'm >back to 6 and I'd hate to loss them. So any wintering tips would be greatly >appreciated! My 2 cents.... Here in NorthWest Ohio we too had a very harsh winter last year. I know many beekeepers who lost 50% or more in my area last year. (state average was in the 30-40% range last winter I think.) I however only lost 3 out of 34 (about 9%). One was due to starvation (plenty of honey, but little in the top super, which cause problems in our long bitterly cold spells), the other two were simply weak going into winter. Not scientific results, but some things I have noted: - Wrapping seems to have made little difference. About half of the hives were wrapped last year and the unwrapped were just as strong as the wrapped. (2 of the dead hives were wrapped, the other was not). (It may make a bigger difference in dryer and/or colder climates.) - Upper ventilation seems key. All hives for the past two years with upper ventilation and a sheet of insulation on top (to keep moisture from condensing under the lid/inner cover) made it. I use a box instead of an inner cover that provides cross flow ventilation in the summer, a 3/8"x2.5" upper entrance and ventilation in winter, and a place to put a sheet of Styrofoam. 1. Food 2. Bees (Number and Health) 3. Ventilation (Cold doesn't kill, moisture does) I think it was Lloyd Spears that told me (or maybe he posted to the list) that he knew someone in upstate NY that had two mean hives, and to get rid of them he left the top and inner cover off the hive over the winter... they survived any ways. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:19:22 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Defensive behaviour rating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was somewhat amused to read a recent paper in the Journal of Apicultural Research which compared the relative reliability of four methods of assessing defensiveness. To summarise, the methods were: 1. Rate them on the basis of nervousness, flying off the comb, hitting your veil and stinging. 2. Wave a flag (black, suede pouch) over the broodnest. 3. Wave a flag at them in a perspex box (the mind boggles!). 4. Apply alarm pheromone to the entrance and see how many bees come out to see what is going on. ...and the winner was - No 1! Proving, I think, what we all knew already: if your bees attack you, then if it safe to say that they are defensive. Peter Edwards (getting more cynical as each day passes) beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:23:04 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: (West Virginia) State Apiary Program for 2004 in Possible Danger Aaron said: >> My advice to West Virginia is to get organized NOW >> to retain your inspection program! In reply to Russ, who reported: > This resulted in beekeepers losing hive treatments for > mites, part-time inspectors and reduction in travel by > George Clutter and Paul Poling our state inspectors. A word of caution. You are not going to be able to "retain" everything. Further cuts will have to be acknowledge as "prudent, under the circumstances". To not admit this would undercut your credibility, and leave you dismissed as a "special-interest group", unable to compromise. A state bee program that was even providing free mite treatments is clearly one that was spending more money than would be prudent under the triple whammy of reduced tax income due to the ongoing economic downturn, reduced federal money available to the states, and increased numbers of "unfunded mandates" (Federal regulations that force action by states, but do not provide Federal funding to cover the expenses). Beekeepers are clearly a "special interest group", and without a thriving set of pollination customers to complain that bee inspection and extension services are mission-critical to THEIR crops, they are the sole voice to explain their plight. Here in Virginia, we have no one dedicated to bees, but do have excellent inspectors who are jacks of all trades, dealing with all sorts of agricultural issues "in the field". Even our State Apiarist has a multi-purpose title - he is the "State Apiarist" and the "Endangered Species Coordinator", a juxtaposition of roles that I find eerily amusing, if not highly appropriate. States have to cut costs, and without a forceful presentation of the downside to not spending money on "bee inspection" and "bee extension programs", states can and will decide to eliminate such programs rather than further cut funding to programs that are viewed as helping more citizens. Encouraging beekeepers to join their local associations (or at least inform them that they are still keeping bees) helps. I have never spoken with any elected official or government employee without being asked "how many beekeepers are there in my voting district?", or how many beekeepers are there in the state?" Clearly, numbers matter, as votes tend to be the lingua franca of government. So, ask yourself: How many beekeepers are there, by county, and in the state? Consider it a "survey". Maybe the supply companies that mail out catalogs can contribute counts of how many catalogs they send to each zip code. How many growers are pollination customers? The state agricultural people may even have already mapped farms by crops grown, allowing you to go down the list, and count growers of crops that are frequently pollinated. This makes your number of "affected people" larger. How many people have home GARDENS? Now the numbers are getting huge, and while there is no way to map each and every home veggie garden, one can certainly estimate by looking at the number of people getting seed catalogs, the sales tax revenues from "garden centers", etc. By the time you are done, your state beekeeper association can end up "representing the interests of" a significant fraction of the voting public. This really, really matters to those who make such decisions, as they never know which issue might blow up in their faces when they mess with funding. So stop being "just a beekeeper", and start thinking like a "steward of the land". You are one, even if you never thought about it. Bees and other pollinating insects are the canaries in the coal mine (a metaphor that cannot be stressed enough in a state like West Virginia!), and some level of state involvement is a very good idea if they want to keep their agricultural system intact. You might end up with nothing more than the part-time efforts of the pesticide enforcement department "also inspecting bees", and you might end up with a situation that is much less beekeeper-responsive than your current program, but you need to preserve SOMETHING, while being willing to allow some reduction in services. The economy certainly will recover at some point. The only trick is to keep a foot in the door for the duration, even if it is nothing more than someone having a "State Apiarist" title, no field staff, and nothing but referrals on sending samples to other places for post-mortem inspections. jim (Most people have a nine to five workday. Beekeepers have a ninety hive workday.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::