From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:29:02 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-80.0 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST,WHY_WAIT autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B5B4906F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZeg011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0311D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 154171 Lines: 3344 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:07:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Hive robbing In-Reply-To: <005701c3b050$c0420410$32b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > "From all indications > healthy" and "filled to the brim with honey and pollen" may or may not be > accurate descriptions. Such descriptions can be highly subjective. I've > often found my own observations to be at odds with reports like this when > visiting other beekeepers. > > We'll likely never know exactly what happened here, but we do know that > competent commercial producers seldom encounter a robbing incident of this > sort, even when using open feeding methods, due to the things we commercials > do automatically, as a matter of course. We reduce the hive volume in fall, > keep our hives at similar strengths, medicate and treat for mites as > required, feed well and early, eliminate or manage weak colonies, and reduce > entrances as indicated. Excellent post ( since I agree with it). I see no difference between what Allen says a good commercial beekeeper does in the fall with what a good hobby beekeeper does. I know when I started keeping bees, I had a robbing incident which fit right into Allen's comment on the subjectivity of observations, especially for an inexperienced beekeeper. I had little idea what a strong or weak colony really looked like and thought the colony being robbed was equal in strength to the robber. My guess is that this is the case here and is not a criticism but exactly what I encountered and not unusual. I recently was asked to inspect a neighbor's colonies since they said they had one weak and one strong hive. It turned out that one was queenless and nearly gone and the other barely filled eight frames of one deep. I have overwintered with three deeps and gave that up as a waste of time and effort. Two deeps are just fine here in Maine. There are studies that show three can be better in cold climates but I go by the stores available in either, and you can have adequate stores with two, if managed properly. I have "excess" honey in the spring with either two or three. (I do not feed in either spring or fall.) Three just added to the lifting. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:04:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Stuffed Turkey Breast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Turkey is traditionally served in the U.S. as part of our upcoming Thanksgiving holiday. Here is a recipe (using honey) for ‘Stuffed Turkey Breast’ from a Dadant recipe pamphlet. A couple of years ago I typed the oven heating instructions as 350 followed by a superscript 0 for the degree symbol and posted the recipe to another internet beekeeping list. Apparently some sites don’t support such formatting. Instead of 350 followed by a superscript 0, the oven temperature appeared in the post as 3500 F. You should not have your oven that hot. If you do, instead of ‘Stuffed Turkey Breast’, you will have ‘Blackened Turkey Breast’. 1 small breast of turkey 1/4 cup water Dressing: 1/4 cup honey 1 Tablespoon lemon juice 2 eggs (optional) 2 Tablespoons dry milk 2 Tablespoons parsley ½ teaspoon coarsely ground black pepper A dash of sea salt A sprinkling of chives 1 cup chopped onions 3 slices San Francisco sourdough bread Preheat oven to 350 degrees F. Place the dressing ingredients in a blender and blend at low speed. Stuff the inside of the turkey breast with the dressing, roll up the edges, and close with skewers. Place the turkey in a baking pan with 1/4 cup of water. Bake for 90 minutes or until golden brown. Bon Appetit Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:49:20 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Hive robbing Bob said: >>> Most commercial beekeepers would NOT keep those hives of five deep >>> hive bodies. You want all hives in the apiary the same strength. I said: >> The statement above is not just false but silly. Allen said: > Actually, the first statement is true and wise, the second is false, > and if anything is silly, I leave it to the reader to decide. > Bob's reply was from a commercial perspective, based on decades of > experience across many state lines. Well, let's run down the parameters: 1) Only Bob assumed "5 deeps". I assumed that the original writer meant "5 mediums" when he said "5 brood chambers". If the actual configuration is deeps, I would agree with Bob and Allen. If the configuration is mediums, then I would still disagree with Bob (and hence, Allen). I await an answer, but I am guessing that we are talking mediums rather than deeps. "5 deeps" >>> WOULD <<< be silly. 2) Mass-production approaches as used by larger beekeepers are simply NOT APPROPRIATE for a small, or even mid-sized beekeepers. Mass-production approaches, where hives are standardized merely for handling, movement, and the convenience of preventing hired hands from making mistakes, are clearly not intended to maximize colony strength or honey production for the "gangbuster" colonies. When one is not faced with hundreds or thousands of hives, one can afford to lavish attention and extra woodenware on the most thriving colonies. One cannot afford not to, if one wants a good crop. 3) A larger colony needs more stores to overwinter. If Bob feels that one deep and one medium are "enough" for a typical colony, one must realize that the equivalent in 100% mediums would be either 3 or 4 mediums, as deeps contain more contiguous useful comb per vertical inch than a stack of mediums of equal height. Is it such a big stretch to imagine a colony in 5 mediums? While it is true that I myself would not enter winter with such a configuration, my bees (NWCs) are famous for ceasing brood-rearing early, and wintering with a smaller cluster. My most common winter-ready colony is a stack of three mediums. a) Mass-production assures consistency. b) Consistency has nothing to do with excellence. c) Bee colonies vary in strength. Connect the dots. jim (Remember when "log on" meant putting wood on fire?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:45:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 2) Mass-production approaches as used by larger beekeepers are simply > NOT APPROPRIATE for a small, or even mid-sized beekeepers. > Mass-production approaches, where hives are standardized merely > for handling, movement, and the convenience of preventing hired > hands from making mistakes, are clearly not intended to maximize > colony strength or honey production I hope that no one believes that. Good beekeeping is good beekeeping, and lots of guys I know who do what Bob and I described get upwards of 300 pound crops, averaged over hundreds or thousands of hives. Not every year, granted, but I know quite a few who have long-term averages well over 200 pounds, doing things that way. As for maximizing colony strength and/or honey production for their own sake, that is an idealistic, rather than practical, goal. Most beekeepers -- hobbyist, sideline and commercial -- understand that the most prudent plan to follow is one that aims for maximum profit, accompanied by minimum risk, rather than a simpleminded pursuit of maximum colony strength and/or maximum honey crop. Additionally, a frugal beekeeper realises that encouraging huge populations at the wrong time of year can eat him out of house and home, and also cause a neighbourhood nuisance. As always, the locality and it's seasonal flora must be considered, and bee populations managed fit in with the local bloom. Many smart beekeepers choose strains of bees that adjust their populations to the time of year, reducing populations in fall, and building quickly in spring. Others use excluders or plug the broods with feed after the crop comes off, to restrict brood rearing, and reduce potential fall populations when no flow is expected. Managing colonies, as described previously by Bob and myself, to avoid robbing, preserves valuable colonies that might otherwise be overcome by robbing, and prevents robbing incidents with the accompanying risk of stinging incidents that can panic or harm nearby humans and livestock. Granted, a sideliner can often improve a bit on what the commercial operator does, by being more on time, and spending a bit more time with each hive, and but the principles of good beekeeping are the same for 5 hives or 50,000. Bob was not silly to state his opinion on how a prudent commercial beekeeper would manage, and he was not wrong in his facts. Whether his observations were appropriate for the situation that inspired the comments, no one knows. His comments seemed to be right on the money, to me. I know that Bob, in all his years, has seen lots of outfits that were not properly cared for in the fall, and knows the inevitable consequences. I know I sure have, and this case sure looked like one of those wrecks, to both of us. > b) Consistency has nothing to do with excellence. Now, this statement is false, and, actually, silly. Consistency is an integral part of excellence. Without consistency there cannot be excellence. > c) Bee colonies vary in strength. This statement is true, but consistency should not to be confused with sameness or mediocrity. Of course, there will always be some variation among living things. One of the signs of an excellent beekeeper is the consistent suitability of his or her colonies and equipment to the purpose at hand, and consistent management. Commercial or hobbyist, consistent, knowledgeable and purposeful management is the mark of excellence in beekeeping. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:16:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Hive robbing In-Reply-To: <092801c3b14a$df037d70$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed >1) Only Bob assumed "5 deeps". Actually, I jumped to the same conclusion as Bob, that it was 5 deeps, on the same flimsy evidence (none) that both points of view have been derived from. >If the actual configuration > is deeps, I would agree with Bob and Allen. If the configuration is > mediums, then I would still disagree with Bob (and hence, Allen). > I await an answer, but I am guessing that we are talking mediums rather > than deeps. "5 deeps" >>> WOULD <<< be silly. Everything is in the circumstances, time of year, and locality. There is a specific time of year that having a yard of colonies of this kind of power would be wonderful here, but of course it is never going to happen. Going into winter it would be a nightmare. In the active management season (start May to start July here ) it would be a nightmare. Just about at any time other than the onset of the heather flow it would be a nightmare. On the heather it is not unusual for us to have groups of colonies at 5 deeps high, with no excluder, and sometimes bigger than that, but by season end the bees are down into no more than the bottom two boxes, and have restricted themselves down to a manageable unit again. I have seen lots of photos, from several places in real honey countries (ie. NOT Scotland) where our big colonies would be considered mediocre in terms of size. > >2) Mass-production approaches as used by larger beekeepers are simply > NOT APPROPRIATE for a small, or even mid-sized beekeepers. I have heard this voiced before, by amateur beekeepers. Then they come out with you for a day or two as observers to see what you do, and eventually realise that, albeit in an abbreviated form, you are still observing the things that are necessary. In 3 mins a colony you gather as much info and perform as much management as they do in half an hour, and with a lot less disturbance to the colony routine. Soon you find that they are adopting many of the shortcuts and techniques you use. The distinction between professional and amateur is not as sharp as some might think. Good management is just that, and applies equally across the board. > Mass-production > approaches, where hives are standardized merely for handling, movement, and > the convenience of preventing hired hands from making mistakes, are clearly >not > intended to maximize colony strength or honey production for the >"gangbuster" > colonies. OK, that is so, but the insertion of the word 'merely' implies some kind of inferiority in the system. Not so. The goal of the commercial is not to arrive at some kind of mediocre even level. I am sure there will many (ex?) operators out there for whom that is true. The successful ones will be very good at what they do, produce consistently good colonies rather than consistently moderate ones, and make a viable honey crop most years. >I myself would not enter winter with such a configuration, my bees (NWCs) >are famous for ceasing brood-rearing early, and wintering with a smaller >cluster. I use them too in part of our unit. Yet here they are our largest overwintering colonies, and the most heavy users of stores. Of course this is compared to the black bee, not to Italians, where the clusters and stores consumption would be much greater still. To make comparisons you have to be basing things on a like for like basis. My situation is entirely different from yours or Bobs. My systems would not export to your environment, nor most likely yours to mine. > >My most common winter-ready colony is a stack of three mediums. Mine is a single deep. Six to eight bars of bees in black bees is a respectable winter cluster, and 20Kg of stores is more than enough. >b) Consistency has nothing to do with excellence. All depends on how you measure excellence. Do you measure per colony? Do you exclude the dinks? or perhaps use the true commercial measures of 'per man hour' or 'per dollar/pound spent'. If you use the latter my money would be on the successful commercial guy. Then consistency has everything to do with excellence. >c) Bee colonies vary in strength. Always, and it is constant job in the active season trying to correct that, and no matter how good a job you do, in a relatively short time they are back varying just as much again. > >Connect the dots. I don't think they do connect. At least not from my perspective. At the end of the day all I did was respond to a post and said it would be a dream to have a whole yard of colonies like to one mentioned. Nothing more. This has opened up a division that is probably more perceived than real. You, me, Bob, Allen, all trying to achieve a similar goal, but all in differing circumstances with different material to work with. You DO have to keep things manageable to get the best results. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:10:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Hive robbing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Is it such a big stretch to imagine a colony in 5 mediums? While it is true >that >I myself would not enter winter with such a configuration, my bees (NWCs) >are famous for ceasing brood-rearing early, and wintering with a smaller >cluster. >jim I would agree that NWCs will winter with a smaller cluster, and require a smaller hive. When spring comes, this is no longer true. I tried to winter NWCs in two hive bodies. We have a big dandelion flow in May. They build up so fast, that two hive bodies don't have enough room. NWCs are swarmy enough without restricting the hive size. The NWCs will build cells and swarm, when the rest of the strong colonies in the yard are just starting to have cups with eggs, or young larvae. So, I winter with two deeps and a medium. That gives me just that little bit of extra time to get around to all my yards before they swarm. I could take the medium off in the fall, and put it back in the spring...before dandelion bloom, but what would be the point. It's safe on the hive....dry, no mice or wax worms, and I don't have enough inside storage for all those extra boxes of comb, anyway. And if I did, I would still leave the extra room on the hives. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:49:26 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "allen dick" "I hope that no one believes that." , referrring to Jim's earlier post: " 2) Mass-production approaches as used by larger beekeepers are simply NOT APPROPRIATE for a small, or even mid-sized beekeepers. Mass-production approaches, where hives are standardized merely for handling, movement, and the convenience of preventing hired hands from making mistakes, are clearly not intended to maximize colony strength or honey production" I used to believe it, chiefly because I thought commercial methods were boring, reducing the interest possible from managing a colony down to simple hard labour, just banging boxes about with no time to examine, muse, see the beauty, learn anything new. I rather resented what I saw as the suppression of beekeeping as a part of everyday life for the countryman in favour of industrialised methods that treat bees as mere items of industrial plant, to be altered, abused, destroyed at will just to make money , with no regard or respect for the millions of years of slow evolution into so complex and well-adapted a form of life. The posts on this theme have however been quite outstandingly informative and educative - one of the best demonstrations of the value of Bee-L for communicating up-to-date ideas and practices. So, next year I intend to set up a few colonies on double UK standard (medium) brood boxes to compare it with my normal long boxes for deep frames as a method for hobby beekeeping - despite deciding 30 years ago that using 2 brood boxes was inherently too clumsy to be fun, and that finding queens in two boxes was always more tricky than on one set of deep frames. Each box will however have only 9 frames and 2 dummies - I will still hold to my belief that u have to be able to create free space in every brood box for handling combs without jarring bees if u want to minimise disturbance when operating a hive, and 9 frames reduces the weight to be lifted. 18 UK brood frames are still a lot for winter in our temperate regions - Ron Brown advocated a 'double-7' system. Are any UK beekeepers on the list doing just this already? Have they made any careful comparison of 'double 9' against the more normal UK practice of using one standard and one shallow box for brood, each with 11 frames? Allen's final words will be pinned up in the Bee Shed: "One of the signs of an excellent beekeeper is the consistent suitability of his or her colonies and equipment to the purpose at hand, and consistent management. Commercial or hobbyist, consistent, knowledgeable and purposeful management is the mark of excellence in beekeeping." Robin Dartington. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:47:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Hive robbing In-Reply-To: <000901c3b1c8$b645a920$08aebc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > So, next year I intend to set up a few colonies on > double UK standard > (medium) brood boxes to compare it with my normal > long boxes for deep > frames as a method for hobby beekeeping > Are any UK beekeepers on the list doing just this > already? I remember a text from Brother Adam about that matter. His comparison (in UK of course) was in favor of one deep brood boxe. I will look for the exact reference later. But I know there are Brother Adam adepts (disciples ?) on the list who may find the text faster than me. Hervé ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:34:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herve asks: But I know there are Brother Adam adepts (disciples ?) on the list who may find the text faster than me. I believe Brother Adam preferred the Dadant jumbo which would be my choice but because of the weight involved and availability I use the standard Langstroth but I and am considering the 18 x 18 mediums (6 and a quarter in. high) of which I have got a couple hundred boxes in the shed for my two queen hives. These were the size Farrar, Moeller and Harp preferred. You can read about their use if you have got access to old Gleanings in Bee Culture magazines : "Gleanings in Bee Culture (Nov. 1965) pg. 679 "The Two queen system Simplified" by Floyd E. Moeller & Emmett R. Sharp. Is a queen excluder available for the 18 by 18 size overseas as I believe long ago Chris said the size was in use in the U.K. but not in medium depth we use in the U.S.. I believe from memory. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:32:41 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Hive robbing In-Reply-To: <000901c3b1c8$b645a920$08aebc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <000901c3b1c8$b645a920$08aebc3e@oemcomputer>, Christine Gray writes >The posts on this theme have however been quite >outstandingly informative and educative - one of the best demonstrations of >the value of Bee-L for communicating up-to-date ideas and practices. You will thus probably have gathered that the majority of those commercial operators on this list will view their involvement with bees as being a privilege. A life spent amongst bees is a thing to look back on with great satisfaction. You would not be able to do that if you had just been a 'factory farmer'. I think we all probably love what we do, otherwise we would not do it. We could make more secure money in a regular job in most cases. Some amateurs make the mistake of looking down on us as somehow lesser creatures because we 'exploit' our bees 'just for the money', when what we really are are beekeepers lucky enough to be in a position to do what we love full time. When you do that you become quick and agile in observation and management, and cram a lot of experience gathering into a few seasons. The fact you do it quickly is misunderstood as being shoddy by some. Again, till they see you in action and then they generally change their viewpoint. Some never do, and harangue you about not taking time to do wing venation assays for morphometry etc, etc, etc. Each to his own. Some love their bees for the academic side of it, some for the pleasure, some for the honey, some for a mixture of everything. It gives me a wonderful quality of life, if not such a wonderful standard of living. > >So, next year I intend to set up a few colonies on double UK standard >(medium) brood boxes to compare it with my normal long boxes for deep >frames as a method for hobby beekeeping - despite deciding 30 years ago that >using 2 brood boxes was inherently too clumsy to be fun, and that finding >queens in two boxes was always more tricky than on one set of deep frames. >Each box will however have only 9 frames and 2 dummies - I will still hold >to my belief that u have to be able to create free space in every brood box >for handling combs without jarring bees if u want to minimise disturbance >when operating a hive, and 9 frames reduces the weight to be lifted. I don't understand why someone would be jarring the bees, as that would require some rough handling. However, that aside, your bees will soon enough tell you what they want. If they put brood right out to the walls then you have not given them enough width in the 9 bars, if they don't you are probably OK. Personally I don't think the BS box evolved entirely by accident and would leave them with 10 or 11 as designed. > >Are any UK beekeepers on the list doing just this already? Have they made >any careful comparison of 'double 9' against the more normal UK practice of >using one standard and one shallow box for brood, each with 11 frames? Not with BS I haven't, where we keep our Smith hives in full width boxes of 11, doubling up (or more) in mid season after the swarm control and manipulations are over with the intention of breaking back down to singles again for winter. However, I have tried it in the Langstroth unit, both 9's and 8's. I found it constrained the bees and caused early onset of cell building, by a week or 10 days. At 8 you have 20% less capacity in the box, and thus need 20% more hive bodies. Late season it caused a noticeable deficiency in production during the last two weeks of the heather crop. This was however in a unit using excluders, and below the excluder was plugging up with honey and thus curtailed the amount of young bees available to forage at that time. Black bees in particular are guilty of plugging below excluders in doubles, and sometimes even in singles from mid July onwards as the day length starts to shorten. Running without excluders at that time might have produced a different result. I had a bonfire a few seasons back and burned all the dummy boards, which will illustrate what my conclusion was. That all schemes are personal, and linked to your own circumstances and goals, is well illustrated by the fact that another operator around here has come to the exact opposite conclusion and is running all 8's with two dummies. > >Allen's final words will be pinned up in the Bee Shed: > "One of the signs of an excellent beekeeper is the consistent suitability >of his or her colonies and equipment to the purpose at hand, and consistent >management. Commercial or hobbyist, consistent, knowledgeable and purposeful >management is the mark of excellence in beekeeping." Allen does express these things very well. Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:29:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here we go again. Thank you guys for heating up this arctic chill that had, overnight, spilled over all the way down to the People’s Republic of Oklahoma today: tonight’s low, they say, will be 19 F. Brrrrrrr. (This Freon-chill weather makes my Mongol blood boil and yearn for kumis) This current huffing and puffing on this thread, based on a firm *assumption* [ASSUME, remember?], proves again how contentious we are, and I like it. That’s what America is all about. Since Jim looks outnumbered here, allow me to chip in and help him out without antagonizing my good friends on this list, especially Allen and Bob. I believe I can ignore Robin since he lives on an island. 1. I have known Jim long enough to know that in spite of what he says here, he operates savvier than most of us sideliners, if not many commercial operators, with expensive technological/scientific equipment and toys. For instance, how many of you, noncommercial operators, own a refractometer, among others? I sure don’t, and I keep fifty colonies. I thus warn you not to assume that his modus operandi belongs to 19th century where our grandparents kept the bees in the skeps a la George I.’s pet description. We all have heard the man and his, sometimes, pontificating science classes, from which we have all benefited. 2. What I can glean from Jim’s post is that we stress too much on money—- the bottom dollar and the profit—-and never the long-term welfare of Apis although we all loudmouth how we LOVE bees. Do we really? I too know money makes the world go around. As the profit blinds us, however, the efficacy and consistency often mean “minimal effort for maximum profit” : just stick this chemical or that in the hive and “Forget About It!” In fact, a commercial operator often "inspects" his bees by confirming that the bees are still "there in the box." Treatment nowadays is also measured by so many nanoseconds per hive, for “I run 50,000 colonies.” In scenarios like this, bees become EXPENDABLE, a mere commodity in the Matrix, because the focus of commercial operation is, and always will be, money and money and more money--regardless of the long-term, unforeseen consequence to the bees. Look where we are now thanks largely to such brutal efficacy-paradigm. It works brilliantly in short term, but never in long term. Don’t tell me such operation truly *cares* about the millennium-old Apis species when, in fact, it all cares about is the back pocket. The above statement is my sweeping generalization based on the firm assumption I have made by reading others who based their observations on other assumptions. Yoon I like to meet Jim someday and steal a bottle of his Glenfidich (sp?). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:09:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beekeeper Organization: none Subject: Central Lower Michigan-11/23/03 Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good Morning All, When I went out to feed the horse this morning I was surprised at how warm it was-mid 50's I would guess- and the girls are flying! A far cry from last year when they were shut down mid October until late March! On Thursday I had to come home at lunch so I checked the hives at about noon. There were several hundred orienting and the air was a buzz!!! Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:09:09 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Murray said... > In 3 mins a colony you gather as much info and perform as much > management as they do in half an hour, and with a lot less disturbance > to the colony routine This is the real difference... Not between amateur or professional beekeepers, but between those that keep a few bees and those that are 'beekeepers' in the fullest sense of the word. Referring to NWC he also said... > I use them too in part of our unit. Yet here they are our largest > overwintering colonies, and the most heavy users of stores. Of course > this is compared to the black bee, not to Italians, where the clusters > and stores consumption would be much greater still. To make comparisons > you have to be basing things on a like for like basis. I have no experiance of NWC, but I concur with the differences between British bees and Italian strains. I am also in agreement with the statement below... > Mine is a single deep. Six to eight bars of bees in black bees is a > respectable winter cluster, and 20Kg of stores is more than enough. I can take it a little further and say that there are some colonies that will only require 10 or 11 Kg of stores, but to expand to fill several brood boxes the bees need nectar and pollen in adequate supply and that is what I have never had in my region... I saw a graph of nectar resources in USA on Allen Dick's site... It was smooth and rose through the season, a similar graph for my area would be a very rough and violently swinging sawtooth or squarewave function, totally un-predictable. Big colonies are essential for collecting the largest crops, but there has to be a crop to be gathered... Murray puts in a great deal of his management effort into getting his colonies 'right' for one particular crop, if that crop failed then no matter how many bees he has on the moors, he would get no honey. Where I live, heather is only available by transporting colonies and has never been a part of my beekeeping, my bees can only build in strength according to the resources available to them, they gather what is available, whenever it is available and under poor weather conditions. I suspect that the time nectar is available for in UK may be only 50% of that in US. You cannot compare different methods in different circumstances. The criterion for judging a method (whether amateur or commercial) is the way it fits it's environment and whether or not it gets the best out of that environment. Murray and I have different methods, but I like to think that both are equally valid for their particular circumstances. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:58:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, For those on the list quietly listening (and possibly taking notes) I will say the discussion going on is between beekeepers for which I have got the greatest respect. A simple question about robbing has drawn out the big guns on the list to discuss methods. If Charles Harper or Chuck Norton comes on then the discussion would be complete. Michael wrote: So, I winter with two deeps and a medium. That gives me just that little bit of extra time to get around to all my yards before they swarm. In spring Michael is referring to. Not unusual or uncommon in a larger operation. The Engles (Texas and other parts unknown) and several other migratory beekeepers use the above. Dave Hackenburg uses two deeps and a shallow. BUT The main reason for the Engles is the same as Michael and concerns not being able to work the hives before swarm problems occur and not that the bees need the brood rearing space. If worked early enough I see no need for the extra super but understand those which want to use any config. *up to three deep boxes* which works for those beekeepers. Also beekeepers doing open feeding like extra brood area in spring to keep the strong hives from the trees before spring bee work begins. The feed coming can plug the brood nest and can cause swarming or the queen is forced to reduce necessary spring brood rearing. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:20:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray said: However, I have tried it in the Langstroth unit, both 9's and 8's. I found it constrained the bees and caused early onset of cell building, by a week or 10 days. At 8 you have 20% less capacity in the box, and thus need 20% more hive bodies. Excellent point!. I use the inside feeder as do most of my friends. One Langstroth box with 8-9 frames (with or without a feeder) would simply be to small of a brood nest area. Although I kept hives successfully in Florida in one deep langstroth two boxes in my opinion gives better control . Murray said: Allen does express these things very well. I agree! Is another group of beekeeping articles for Bee Culture in the works for next year Allen? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:44:10 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray Robin and all I posted a piece in this thread and was about to ask Robin about jarring when Murray posted... > I don't understand why someone would be jarring the bees, as that would > require some rough handling. However, that aside, your bees will soon > enough tell you what they want. If they put brood right out to the walls > then you have not given them enough width in the 9 bars, if they don't > you are probably OK. Personally I don't think the BS box evolved > entirely by accident and would leave them with 10 or 11 as designed. I have some experiance of using dummies in the outermost positions in National hives. I started this when I was in the habit of using two broodboxes and prolific bees of Italian lineage. The bees never really used the 22 frames available and so as there are parts of Scotland that use dummies in the outer positions I started using this method myself. It was useful in that the outer frames were only ever halfheartedly used by the bees and were often very scruffy as a result. I have also used such dummies in a 'brood and a half' configuration. (which is an abominable system anyway!). When I changed over to using less prolific bees I was using 11 frames and no dummies, but as I refined my breeding over several years the outer frames became scruffy again and I started using one or sometimes two dummies in those colonies that obviously did not need the space. Some colonies cluster on only five frames... I am not talking about weak colonies here... these colonies are this size by their own choice, but it is these colonies that get the dummies. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:48:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave said: Big colonies are essential for collecting the largest crops, but there has to be a crop to be gathered... Murray puts in a great deal of his management effort into getting his colonies 'right' for one particular crop, if that crop failed then no matter how many bees he has on the moors, he would get no honey. Excellent point Dave! "You can never count your chickens before they are hatched" but each year the larger operator has to decide the number of hives to use, pre flow build up and placement of those hives. In 1998 I had the best looking hives I had in years and had a very poor honey crop as did all of our area. For an unknown reason the bees did not work the Clover. Fields of Clover without a visit from the bees. Many reasons abound such as humidity, rain washing nectar from blossoms etc. I have seen 200 hundred hives moved in on "Blue Vine'" and the beekeeper find 6 weeks later his bees starving instead of full supers. In the above aspect of beekeeping the commercial fisherman and the commercial beekeeper are the same. With the commercial fisherman you know the fish are in the area but closed mouth. Bob comes from a family of commercial fisherman on his fathers side. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:59:19 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & all > Is a queen excluder available for the 18 by 18 size overseas as I believe > long ago Chris said the size was in use in the U.K. but not in medium depth > we use in the U.S.. I believe from memory. Queen exluders are avilable in UK at 460 mm x 460 mm (18 1/8" square) However the boxes to suit this size come in two depths and two flavours. we have National boxes with BS frames (11) at 225 mm and 150 mm box depths. Or we have 'Commercial' boxes that take American styled frames that are known as 16" x 10" or 16" x 6" at 264 mm and 162 mm box depth. The commercial boxes are 465 mm square rather than 460 mm, but they are no problem to use. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 00:23:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After I wrote: "I will still hold to my belief that u have to be able to create free space in every brood box for handling combs without jarring bees if u want to minimise disturbance when operating a hive, and 9 frames reduces the weight to be lifted, " "Murray McGregor" said: "I don't understand why someone would be jarring the bees, as that would require some rough handling." The problem I am refering to is how to get the first frame out of a full box - the only direction u can lift is up, which needs using the hive tool to break the propolis. As I work with only one tool, only one end is lifted upwards at a time, which of course swings the side of the frame against the hive wall, crushing any bees there. When I free the other end, bees get crushed there too. Then I can lift both ends together to lift the frame right out, but as the space is only the width of the frame, the comb gets rubbed against the next one, squashing or at least rolling more bees. So the end result is when the frame comes clear out of the hive, so do lots of angry bees. I used 'jarring' as a shorthand. Using 2 dummies means that the dummy next to the hive wall is pretty clear of bees, so can be hauled out without trouble. Then the next dummy can be levered SIDEWAYS to break the propolis, with no risk to bees at all. Then it can be twisted slightly before being lifted, reducing risk of rubbing bees against the hive side. Then the first comb can be freed and twisted even more in the free space now created - problem over. The second problem was always placing the upper box back gently enough that no bees got squashed. I cannot handle a box delicately when it is 18 inches square and weighs 40 lbs. The same box, reduced to 30 lbs and with the weight nearer one side, can be put back with less of a thump. Now, possibly I have been getting that first frame out the wrong way all this time. Any suggestions? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:31:42 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Hive robbing Comments: cc: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim & All, > But reducing entrances is the key. A weaker colony near such a > monster is easy pickings when fall comes and a bee's tiny little > mind turns to criminal behavior. The weaker colony needs the > smallest entrance possible, just to give them a chance of defending > their stores. > I use masking tape over the entrance of a colony being robbed to reduce it and to prevent robbing in the spring on all the colonies. When they start flying in the spring, I bring out the tape. I put a piece of masking tape over the entrance and cut a one bee size hole in it, the bees chew out the entrance to suit themselves according to the strength of the colony. even though the tape is sticky, it's a slick way to reduce an entrance when robbing starts. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:00:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Hive robbing In-Reply-To: <003d01c3b1da$987076c0$11a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Michael wrote: > So, I winter with two deeps and a medium. That gives me just that little >bit of extra time to get around to all my yards before they swarm. > >Bob wrote: > The main reason is and concerns not being able to work the hives before swarm problems occur and not that the bees need the brood rearing space. If worked early enough I see no need for the extra super Early to you is impossible for me. There isn't much time here between first dependable pollen, and dandelion bloom. That 4 week window...less that in Missouri?... is probably the worst bee weather we have each year. And they do need the brood rearing space. The super is probably half full of winter stores at this time. The brood nest expands downward onto the empty combs in the bottom box. By the time dandelion blooms, many colonies have a cluster that extends from the top super to the bottom board. There is usually a little brood in the super, 6 or 7 combs of brood in the top hive body, and 4 or 5 combs of brood in the bottom hive body. No, I would say that in my area, two deeps and a super is the proper configuration. The bees store enough honey in this space to last until dandelion. The space is filled with bees when I pack them away in fall, and again by dandelion. Swarming is kept in check until late dandelion. By then I've been able to get into the brood nests with only a little cell building. mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 21:07:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Excluders for Farrar Boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Is a queen excluder available for the 18 by 18 size overseas as I >> believe long ago Chris said the size was in use in the U.K. but not >> in medium depth we use in the U.S.. I believe from memory. When I built and ran a bit over 100 colonies in Farrar equipment, about 30 years ago, I used five mesh hardware cloth for excluders. Works fine. For those who are interested, to build that equipment, I hauled the pine logs from 400 miles away, had them custom milled to 6-5/8" planks, built jigs for the boxes and a gang saw for the frame parts, then hand built all the equipment. It was beautiful and worked OK. When I decided to expand and go commercial, I sold it all, and settled on standard boxes and single queen management. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 21:14:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Follower Boards? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > After I wrote: "I will still hold to my belief that u have to be > able to create free space in every brood box for handling combs > without jarring bees if u want to minimise disturbance when operating > a hive, In recent years, I have taken to keeping an undrawn frame of plastic foundation on the outside of brood boxes. It is like a follower board in that it is easy to pull, but if the bees get crowded, they can draw it out. It is also handy in the yard, if a frame of foundation is needed for some pupose, and an old frame can be switched for it in a inch. Thus it serves three purposes: follower, overload comb building space, and spare frame storage. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:20:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, I can not say what is best for you and your area but can tell you what we do. >Early to you is impossible for me. We make splits any time the temp is over 55 F. and no wind when pressed for time. >There isn't much time here between first dependable pollen, and dandelion bloom. If you are giving the bees a frame of pollen why wait for the spring pollen flow for the spring teardown or do you only remove brood to keep the bees from swarming? >That 4 week window...less that in Missouri?... is probably the worst bee weather we have each year. We work bees in rain but not a downpour. Cold wind is of bigger concern. >And they do need the brood rearing space. The super is probably half full of winter stores at this time. We try to feed only enough so the bees have only got a couple frames of honey left at the spring rework so hefting hives is easier. At times we bring frames of honey to add . >The brood nest expands downward onto the empty combs in the bottom box. Again I see this as a sign you are waiting to late to use our method. When the bees start down I would reverse if I was not using our method and take the split from the top box. Think upward movement! >By the time dandelion blooms, many colonies have a cluster that extends from the top super to the bottom board. There is usually a little brood in the super, 6 or 7 combs of brood in the top hive body, and 4 or 5 combs of brood in the bottom hive body. You (in my opinion) are waiting to late for your spring bee work if you are dealing with so much brood. Finding queens and spliting would be easier and simpler if you did your spring teardown earlier. You want to start when the queen is only on a couple frames of eggs/larva so she is easy to find. earlier she will be anyplace in the hive and later you will have to search the ten to twelve frames of brood you talk about above as she might be trying to lay eggs in cells which have emerged. >til dandelion. The space is filled with bees when I pack them away in fall, and again by dandelion. Swarming is kept in check until late dandelion. By then I've been able to get into the brood nests with only a little cell building. I am guessing you only pull brood for splits and not do a complete hive rebuild like we do. Many use your method but also fight swarming because of the amount of bees which have emerged because of doing your spring teardown late *in my opinion* You might not like what I have said but you sent a post with a Missouri question mark so giving my opinion. We also do hive teardowns after pollination (Almonds, Apples etc.) at times to keep bees from the trees. We had hives on 12 frames of brood after pollination last spring when hives in Missouri were on 3-4 frames of brood. Our system changes with circumstances. If we did not work bees in the rain we would not get our work done. Only hobby beekeepers have the luxury of waiting for a perfect 70F. day. I use the bug baffler sold by mid con which can be dried out with a hair dryer( or hand dryer at a truck stop) and change to dry clothes at lunch time (or at the apiary site). I live on a small farm and chores go on regardless of the weather so bee work gets done when the weather will not hurt the bees *in our opinion* even if uncomfortable for ourselves . Livestock needs fed , bales set and fresh country eggs need gathered. Eat your heart out city folks! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:14:54 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Hive robbing In-Reply-To: <002d01c3b221$7871e1a0$163874d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <002d01c3b221$7871e1a0$163874d5@oemcomputer>, Christine Gray writes >Using 2 dummies means that the dummy next to the hive wall is pretty clear >of bees, so can be hauled out without trouble. Then the next dummy can be >levered SIDEWAYS to break the propolis, with no risk to bees at all. Then >it can be twisted slightly before being lifted, reducing risk of rubbing >bees against the hive side. Then the first comb can be freed and twisted >even more in the free space now created - problem over. I probably understand you a bit better now. You may also get a lot more propolis than we do. The use of the word 'jarring' led me to believe you were, for some reason, giving the comb some kind of jolt or shock. We rarely ever clean the propolis build up off the side bars, and in the warmth of the hive this wax/propolis cocktail you get on the side bars is relatively soft. In a BS box there is some space leftover when the frames are new or clean, but little when the frames have been in use over a period. It is this build up that we use to allow us the space to extract the first comb, by levering the bars over to one side (actually, that is not strictly true, we usually lever between the first and second bars, isolating the one at one side) compressing this wax/propolis, and creating that quarter to half inch of free space that lets you get in and get the job done. You only have to be vigilant for 'fat comb' where the shape is such that they cannot come out cleanly, and pick another if that is the case. I would not pretend that we never kill bees, because it does happen, but not to excess. The odd queen over the year probably does succumb to mishandling, but not at first bar extraction. Usually it is the hired help allowing a bar to slip from their grip at one end, swings down against the wall of the hive, and if she has been on the lower outer end of the side bar she cops it, but this is rare, and when it does expletives flow copiously in the bee site. We use only the one hive tool as well, and I don't see anything wrong with what you have been doing. > >The second problem was always placing the upper box back gently enough that >no bees got squashed. I cannot handle a box delicately when it is 18 inches >square and weighs 40 lbs. The same box, reduced to 30 lbs and with the >weight nearer one side, can be put back with less of a thump. For fear of antagonising some, as it has happened before when someone praised colony strength in a picture but crushed bees were visible between the boxes, a FEW bees does not really matter that much. Get the bees smoked down from the top of the bottom box, check the underside of the upper box and give it a puff of smoke, and unless a cluster has formed hanging there, get it back on. I put it on at one edge and slide it into position, which tends to push stray bees out of the way. Having a pretty good idea where the queen is helps prevent anxiety. If all is well we do not look for her, except at first spring examination, when all last years young queens get clipped and marked, but as we are using a single box system in the most active part of the season she is almost always in the bottom box. There is always one who turns up in an odd place, having slipped past a deformed excluder wire or something similar. Perhaps this aspect is the biggest single difference between ourselves and the amateurs over here who come out to see us. They are determined to see the queen at each visit as 'that is they way things should be done', but cannot explain satisfactorily why. That takes a lot of time, especially if she is a 'runner', and lots of black bee queens are really good runners, and expert hiders. As soon as you dispense with the need to find the queen examinations get a whole heap faster, and accurate diagnosis of colony condition and action needed, if any, to within practical percentages, is possible by only examining say 6 bars (sometimes even less), from one side to just past the centre of the nest. Then your disturbance can be minimal and you are in and out in a very short time. > >Now, possibly I have been getting that first frame out the wrong way all >this time. Any suggestions? No, when we had a unit of Nationals we always found them slower going than Smiths or Langstroths as they were just a little bit slower to work, and the bottom bee space created problems of its own. The internal size is supposed to be the same as a Smith, but there are variants that seem to cause tight frames and burr comb, plus you get nasty pedestal comb too, which slows the whole operation down. In these cases perhaps dummies have a role Allen's suggestion about using a plastic in the outside position is something I have done, and it works fine in some cases. Not an option in BS though. I find that a flow or heavy feed coming on makes them draw the second bar fat, leaving the plastic undrawn on its inner surface. Then you have some fun if you decide that is the frame that you want to get out. (I would try to lift them out as a pair if no other obvious option was available) Possibly a black bee trait, as the NWC's do not do this so much, and will draw almost anything. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:05:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Excluders for Farrar Boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gentle Friends: “When I built and ran a bit over 100 colonies in Farrar equipment, about 30 years ago,” Allen shares his experience, “I used five mesh hardware cloth for excluders.” The idea of using #5 hardware cloth as a queen excluder is a good one overall and especially when used on a swarm/bee-retrieval box. Staple the cloth to the bottom of a decommissioned deep or a doubled-up medium box, put the lid on, keep one or two on your truck bed year around like I do, and you have one of the best swarm-retrieval/bee-removal boxes that is a whole lot better than any cardboard box. The hardware cloth can function as a Screened Bottom Board and *at the same time* it will force the finicky queen to stay put, a labor-and money- saving device. (I hate when the queen plays hard to get when I have a headache in the heat!) When using the box to retrieve bees, one must use the screened bottom as the entrance; hence, placing the box on top of any wedge will further increase ventilation as well. Keep that ventilation in mind when moving the bees, too. Yoon A big gun (according to Bob) with the gentlest explosion. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:13:59 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Follower Boards? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Allen brought in... > I have taken to keeping an undrawn frame of plastic > foundation on the outside of brood boxes. It is like a follower board in > that it is easy to pull, but if the bees get crowded, they can draw it out. I have never tried it with plastic foundation, but I suspect that in UK it would happen much the same as happened with wax foundation. I will start from the beginning... I used to be in the habit of pulling the outermost frames in the 3rd or 4th week in January and leaving empty spaces in the outer two positions (it is too cold for the bees to build wild comb in these spaces at this time) a fortnight or three weeks later I would place frames with foundation in these flanking positions. It was common for these frames to remain undrawn even when the space was needed, what was common was that the face of the comb next to the foundation frame was extended to within a bee space of the foundation and just a few bridged across braces. This was a mess and a waste of foundation and so the practice was discontinued. This was done before I had discovered the benefits of insulated tops and the empty spaces helped to keep the condensation to a minimum, part of the objective was to get the expanding nest to use up the pollen stores that were closest to the centre of the nest, but possibly not as fresh as some in the outer combs which they would have used first if given the chance. The pulled frames would be used in the formation of nucs later in the season. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:03:03 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Robin originally said... > The problem I am refering to is how to get the first frame out of a > full box Murray's answer to this was pretty close to what I would have written, but I go a little further when preparing the wooden frames in the first instance... I put, what we in UK describe as petroleum jelly (a grease made from beewax and FGMO) on the edges of the hoffman wings. This renders them less liable to be propolised and any propolis that does occur cannot stick hard. I have a different take on the placement of one box on top of another... My hives are National sized, but they are top bee space which seems to help. The main feature of bee crushing is that a hive that is open for a long time allows a number of bees to swell out onto external surfaces and these bees deposit pheramones on the wood and are less easy to get back in the box because outside smells as good as inside. quick and clean management takes this out of the equation. Overall, no matter which hive or style of box, bees are going to be crushed in the course of normal working, the numbers are not significant, and one of the reasons for large numbers in bee colonies is to for attrition due to birds and preditors. I should also amplify one of my previous posts and say that my dummy positions were No. 1 and No. 11 not No. 1 & 2 as it appears that Robin meant. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:18:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: Looking for Honey Glaze formula Any cooks out there? I am wondering whether anyone has solved the challenge of creating a Non-sticky Honey glaze. I know that honey naturally wants to absorb moisture - but is there a way to alter this characteristic so I can use it to coat nuts and such for holiday gifts? Thanks. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:06:02 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Murray McGregor" > " We rarely ever clean the propolis build up off the side bars, and in the > warmth of the hive this wax/propolis cocktail you get on the side bars > is relatively soft. In a BS box there is some space leftover when the > frames are new or clean, but little when the frames have been in use > over a period. > It is this build up that we use to allow us the space to extract the > first comb, by levering the bars over to one side (actually, that is not > strictly true, we usually lever between the first and second bars, > isolating the one at one side) compressing this wax/propolis, and > creating that quarter to half inch of free space that lets you get in > and get the job done. " That's practical - assuming the hive is well made or, since action and reaction are equal and opposite, u can lever off the hive wall in time. Now that remark, plus my next, may make beekeeperers in all advanced countries smirk with self satisfaction. Sloppily made hives? Ha, ha. Worse, the standard BS frames, in the standard National hives I feel I ought to demonstrate to visitors to my apiary, have straight side bars the whole depth and the frames are spaced only by clips on the top bars. So u cannot compress a whole set as Murray does (evidently using Hoffman frames), or their bottoms would swing about, crushing bees everywhere!. Ha, ha, ha I hear. What an obsolete old country! - well, we must persuade u all to take up Rugby and then we can send u our best ambassadors to sort u out. Meanwhile, I have to suggest using dummies. Should such dreadful equipment be tolerated at all? Well, the reason I feel I should show it is that it is the stuff new beekeepers get given or buy cheap. People tend to use it until they get keen enough to invest in proper stuff, and often only then because it is worn out. I am advertising 'open days' to local farmers who go on FWAG outings (Farmers Wildlife Advisory Group) - I hope they will see the benefits of the modern hives I promote but many will say they expected to learn how to use the abandoned hives they have just got. If anyone knows how to persaude beekeepers that old hives are just junk, not valuable historical items, please let me know. It is the curse of small-scale British beekeeping. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:19:05 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dave Cushman" > my dummy positions were No. 1 and No. 11 not No. 1 & 2 as it appears that Robin meant." Using two dummies together against the hive front wall gives the (unproven) advantage of a clear space for a rising air current, generated by the sun's warmth hitting the hive front if the hive faces south. Also, like Murray, I do not usually go further than half way back on a standard check for swarming, so I only want to get in just at the front - this is easier with 2 dummies together. Thirdly, the 2 dummies leave an 'open seam' which makes it easier to spot when 'heads-up' bees are starting to gather , which is the quick way to see if swarm preparations have been started. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:29:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings Everyone, All my hives have been on small cell comb and doing well for several season now. I had noticed that the size of the small cell bee varied throughout the year. Last season I started up a few all large cell hives and I had trouble distinguishing a small cell size bee from a large cell size bee so I did a little measuring and comparing. The results and my musings on this subject can be found at: www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/size.htm Regards Dennis Some winter food for thought :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:30:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Re: Looking for Honey Glaze formula In-Reply-To: <200311241818.hAOHgCex007354@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Milt Latham inquired: >Any cooks out there? I am wondering whether anyone has solved the >challenge of creating a Non-sticky Honey glaze. > I know that honey naturally wants to absorb moisture - but is there a >way to alter this characteristic so I can use it to coat nuts and >such for holiday gifts. For decades I have made my own honey granola in a microwave oven. A month's supply takes less than an hour. At the end of the process, the granola is non-sticky and dry in the hand. It stays that way indefinitely when stored in friction top cans. Here is the recipe: ********** MICROWAVE GRANOLA Dry Ingredients: 3 pints multi-grain cereal 1 pint wheat flakes (if not available, use another pint of multi-grain cereal) 1 cup raw cashew pieces 1 cup raw pepitas (pumpkin or squash seeds) 1 cup raw sunflower seeds 1/2 cup brown sesame seeds (unhulled) Liquid ingredients: 3/4 cup vegetable oil 3/4 cup dark honey * * * * * Thoroughly mix the dry ingredients in a large microwave-safe kettle. Then make a doughnut like groove and pour in the liquids. Do not stir yet. Place the container in the microwave and set controls on high for 20 minutes. After each 5 minutes, take out, stir very thoroughly, and put back in the oven. At the end of the 20 minute period, stir, and place back in the oven for 4 minutes at second high. Microwaves differ in the amount of power at various setting. Therefore, one must keep careful watch near the end of cooking. The cashew pieces serve as the best indicator - they turn from pale tan to a light golden brown when the batch is done. * * * * * After cooking, empty the granola into a large roaster pan. Stir occasionally until cool. Store in large clean coffee tins or other air-tight container to keep out insects. ************* It seems to me that anyone could adapt the above process to coat "nuts and such" for holiday gifts, starting with raw nuts. The secret seems to be using an equal parts combination of oil and honey. Be very careful, though, about the time spent in the microwave. (In understand that some people add a little chili pepper or such to give some zap.) If any of you experiment and succeed, let the rest of us know. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************* * "People have a right to their opinions -- * but that doesn't mean all opinions are of equal value." * * Pot Shot #9108 by Ashleigh Brilliant, used by permission ************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:42:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis, The results and my musings on this subject can be found at: www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/size.htm Let me to be the first to congratulate you on your work! I bookmarked your site and will be following your work closely. About the only thing I could add which might help in your "musings" is that I have seen many a worker raised in *drone cells* (for new beekeepers the queen lays worker eggs in the drone cells and workers are raised BUT once you learn to notice the different style of capping you know the cells contain worker brood) by the bees and the workers are not the size of drones but the same size as those raised in cell size 5.1-5.2mm. I also notice a variation in size of bees raised in the same size cells but honestly never noticed a seasonal difference until you now point it out. I will now check myself. I can not remember reading about a seasonal bee size but maybe others on the list will point us to literature on the subject? You have got my curiosity up so will try and do a few small cell experiments this year such as you did and see if I get the same results. What type camera did you use to take those pictures as they were excellent? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:18:07 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote > I also notice a variation in size of bees raised in the same size cells but > honestly never noticed a seasonal difference until you now point it out. I have noticed this variation over the years and put it down to nutrition. When nutrition and available nurse bees are plentiful, nice size bees. When nutrition is low and the nurse bee's protein levels in their body drop because of this, then smaller bees. Not nourished as much. Comments! Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:00:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > All my hives have been on small cell comb and doing well for several > season now. I had noticed that the size of the small cell bee varied > throughout the year. Last season I started up a few all large cell > hives and I had trouble distinguishing a small cell size bee from a > large cell size bee so I did a little measuring and comparing. Glad to see someone has actually taken the time to measure, report, and ponder this question. Your results confirm what we have casually observed over the years, regardless of the brood comb used. Bees raised early in the year tend to be smaller and, as the season progresses, the bees get bigger. That is true of many types of bees, including bumble bees, since the size of the bees raised is related to the prosperity of the colony, the amount of forage coming in, the quality of feed on hand, and the number of bees being raised per nurse bee. In our honeybee colonies, we used to notice that the first few rounds of bees were smaller, and therefore started experimenting with protein supplements. Even in the early stages of our tests, my son reported that -- although he could net see a whole lot more brood being raised with the supplements -- he sure noticed that, with supplement, the bees appeared bigger and more robust, and he didn't see the small bees he saw in hives without supplement. After winter, or in package bees, the old nurse bees -- long past the nurse-bee age -- are strugging to raise brood, with less assistance than later in the season. Some early pollen is low quality, and the supply can be intermittent due to weather. As spring progresses and the hive builds up, foraging conditions improve, and more young bees come on stream to help rear the next generation. Brood rearing conditions improve, and the resulting bees are bigger and better nourished. At the peak of the season, brood rearing cuts back, and then *a lot* more nutrition is available for each egg laid; as a result, highly nourished, long-lived winter bees are raised at that time. There may be more factors involved. I don't know, but if you want to know if nutrition is a factor in the size effects you see, labs can analyse the fat bodies and other parts of your large bees, and your small bees, to compare their relative nutritional condition. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:48:05 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Links Page A bout of 'flu has confined me to the house, so I have taken the opportunity to check our Links page for broken links and to add new ones. There are now 447 links! The page is aimed primarily at UK beekeepers but includes other content that may be of interest. Any suggestions for new links welcomed. http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Links.htm Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:13:42 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin & all > Using two dummies together against the hive front wall gives the (unproven) > advantage of a clear space for a rising air current, generated by the sun's > warmth hitting the hive front if the hive faces south. It may be unproven, but I can corroborate the findings... Many years ago I decided to make use of the box volume under the long lugs of the BS frame, that is to a certain extent wasted in conventional designs. My objective was to provide a space that would not be filled with brace/burr comb, but would be available to relieve congestion in a brood nest that was jammed full of nectar by a short burst of productivity. I made some boxes with panels that were sheets of plywood with a bee space between... The object of the experiment was only partly fulfulled, but the thin outer skin and the smooth plane surfaces gave rise to circulating currents that kept the hive drier than it would have been otherwise. I should also mention that in trying to keep the post on dummy frames short and on the point, I omitted to mention another reason that I use dummies and that is... As I have come to use the single brood box for wintering, I have also changed over to frames that run parallel to the entrance (so called 'warm way'). One of the features of warm way frame disposition is that the first frame in the box (nearest entrance) is often incompletely drawn, sometimes ignored and generally a poor looking comb. Although I would remove this dummy first I would slide the first two or three frames to the outside as a group and only remove the frame that the seams of bees indicated was at the start of the nest. (at least I think this is the reason, as it is done without deliberate thought or observation, more of a 'sixth sense') Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:40:01 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin > the standard National hives I feel I ought to demonstrate to visitors > to my apiary, have straight side bars the whole depth and the frames > are spaced only by clips on the top bars The reasons why this method exists, is a historical one... The so called 'metal ends' are the culprits... Not the tinplate variety that was developed bt W.B. Carr, but the original ones made of printer's type metal which go back to the early 1800s. Just because they are 'traditional' does no mean that they are compulsory... They are an abomination and detract from the speed with which hives can be manipulated. The beekeeping equipment trade is partly responsible for their continued use during the last 70 years. The hobbyist does not need to scrap his precious stock of straight sided frames they can be made compatible with the more widely used hoffman frames by using small plastic adaptors. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/hoffadapt.html Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:03:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Looking for Honey Glaze formula In-Reply-To: <200311241818.hAOHgCex007354@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Milt Lathan wrote: > Any cooks out there? I am wondering whether anyone has solved the > challenge of creating a Non-sticky Honey glaze. You want to carmalize the honey. I use a microwave to make honey coated peanuts. Unfortunately, I have never bothered to make a recipe so the time in the microwave is by eye. I coat the peanuts (does not take much honey) and add whatever other flavor I like (chili powder is nice). Spread them out on a plate and microwave until brown but not burnt. Allow to cool and scrape off the plate. They will stay separated if you keep them in a closed jar, but in time will get sticky (months not days). Even then, they can be re-separated. I have also made microwave granola like Adrian. If you have large batches, you can use the oven, but I like the microwave since it is quick and makes about a pint. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:08:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Hive robbing In-Reply-To: <001001c3b242$3f317f60$10a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >I can not say what is best for you and your area but can tell you what we >do. >We work bees in rain but not a downpour. Cold wind is of bigger concern. I too work bees in nasty weather. In fact, I was transferring 4 frame nucs into new boxes the other day, in a snow storm. > do you only remove brood to keep the bees >from swarming? Not my primary swarm control method. >We try to feed only enough so the bees have only got a couple frames of >honey left at the spring rework so hefting hives is easier. >At times we bring frames of honey to add . If I leave them too close on stores, and the weather is bad for a couple weeks, the queens shut down. With plenty of stores they don't. I would rather have a little extra in the hive, than have to go around adding more. > > you are waiting to late to use our method. When >the bees start down I would reverse if I was not using our method and take >the split from the top box. Think upward movement! But not too late to use my method here in Vermont. By supering before dandelions, reversing on dandelions, and supering again after dandelions....there is upward movement. > > >You (in my opinion) are waiting to late for your spring bee work if you are >dealing with so much brood. Finding queens and spliting would be easier and >simpler if you did your spring teardown earlier. I don't feel I need to find all my queens...and I don't split colonies in the spring. Colonies split on dandelion don't make surplus honey from the early flows. >You want to start when the queen is only on a couple frames of eggs/larva so >she is easy to find. What would be the point? I don't search for my queens anyway. >I am guessing you only pull brood for splits and not do a complete hive >rebuild like we do. Many use your method but also fight swarming because of >the amount of bees which have emerged because of doing your spring teardown >late *in my opinion* I don't pull frames of brood for splits, or equalizing. That's what I used to do. When I pollinated apples, I used to start equalizing and reversing in late April...so the bees would be ready for the orchard. When they came out of the orchard, I would do another..."teardown." Well, we have early flows here...honeysuckle-locust-brambles...which the bees can't take advantage of if they've been split up, or brood removed for equalization. Instead I allow all my colonies to build up. I found that it is dandelion nectar going into the broodnest that triggers swarming here. I super early to catch the first dandelion nectar. About mid-flow, I reverse the broodnests. and add another super. This keeps the bees expanding upward, while giving the bees a place to store the dandelion. Surely some colonies will start cells. If it's a problem with crowding, that can be fixed. If they want a new queen, then I requeen them. Once they start making honey, most give up swarming...as long as they have enough supers. I allow the weaker hives to build up too. The ones that don't quite make the grade will get requeened. The punks get broken up into 4 frame nucs in July, and are each given a queen cell. These are overwintered, and used for replacing deadouts, and for requeening the following spring. This is how I handle my bees here in my area. I know it's not what you do, Bob, but it works well for me. I am a honey producer, not a pollinator. My bottom line is how much honey I make, minus what it cost to make it. Last year in a good year I averaged 135 lbs, and this year...some said a bad year, I averaged 97. > > We also do hive teardowns after pollination (Almonds, Apples etc.) at times >to keep bees from the trees. This would be the best way of insuring a crop failure in these parts. There just isn't enough time for the bees to build back to full strength. >If we did not work bees in the rain we would not get our work done. Only >hobby beekeepers have the luxury of waiting for a perfect 70F. day. Yeah, that's out here too. We just don't get all that many 70deg days in the spring. >I live on a small farm and chores go on regardless of the weather so bee >work gets done when the weather will not hurt the bees *in our opinion* even >if uncomfortable for ourselves . Livestock needs fed , bales set and fresh >country eggs need gathered. >Bob Well, off to feed my polled herefords, so I can get the truck loaded, and out of here at a reasonable hour. This is brush cutting time in my bee yards. Got my long-johns on, and my snow boots oiled....there's two inches on the ground today...after 60F yesterday. Mike...hoping you'll try to understand my methods...on the 45th...and not compare them to yours...considerably south of there. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:21:45 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Equipment etc. (was hive robbing) In-Reply-To: <001d01c3b2d9$2e4ab080$f23674d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <001d01c3b2d9$2e4ab080$f23674d5@oemcomputer>, Christine Gray writes >Now that remark, plus my next, may make beekeeperers in all advanced >countries smirk with self satisfaction. Sloppily made hives? Ha, ha. Does not make me smirk. I have plenty equipment whose origins are lost in the mists of time, some of it home made, by various beekeepers, including my own father, whose boxes made in the winter of 1949, from timber salvaged from wartime tractor packing cases from north America, are all still in service (and satisfactory). The second hand ones he got his first bees in, in the spring of 1950, are also still around, and very good they are too and will see me out. No idea how old they are, but apparently they were a long way from new when he got them. Different timber sources, of different types, and difference levels of dryness, plus creative interpretation of sizing (not only by the DIY beekeeper) all go together to make many outfits contain a rag-bag of slightly varying gear, and mine is no different. However, none of it is falling to pieces, as would need to be the case if levering the bars over a bit is going to cause the side to come out. Any box like that is removed asap, and sent home for either economic repair or burning. We probably come across perhaps 20 a year maximum which have reached the end of the road that way. ( Most of the bad ones are from a consignment made in 1970 from white wood. (Pine sapwood.)) You would think our Langstroth unit would be different, with everything being factory made, but it isn't. We have boxes made in the UK, USA, and New Zealand, and all three are slightly different. In the UK one, for some reason of infinite wisdom, they have made the side walls thicker, but kept the exterior dimensions the same, so it is difficult to fit 10 US Langstroth frames in once they have been used at all. The NZ ones have the same internal size as the UK ones too, but are made with the thinner material, so they are short on the outside dimensions, plus they are made for bottom bee space, so we have to run a router over them to lower the frame rest a bit. >Worse, the standard BS frames, in the standard National hives I feel I >ought to demonstrate to visitors to my apiary, have straight side bars the >whole depth and the frames are spaced only by clips on the top bars. So u >cannot compress a whole set as Murray does (evidently using Hoffman frames), >or their bottoms would swing about, crushing bees everywhere!. I would like to pretend I did not have any of these, but I do. They are becoming rare in the BS unit nowadays, and there are none in Langstroth, and when they turn up with the comb in any way damaged they get done away with. We do have a good number still in the honey supers where they cause no nuisance, but again never get rewaxed when they turn up damaged. Some of these are at least 50 years old, and one pattern I discussed once with Dave Cushman we reckoned to date from the 1920's, but there are very few of these left. However, you can still squeeze these across a bit by gentle compression of the spacers, or the frame immediately adjacent to the spacers. Plastic ones are of course harder to compress than the metal ones, but it is not clear which type you have. > Ha, ha, ha >I hear. What an obsolete old country! - well, we must persuade u all to >take up Rugby and then we can send u our best ambassadors to sort u out. >Meanwhile, I have to suggest using dummies. I would reckon, if they were being frank, you would get an admission from most places, that some amateurs and sideliners will have a mix of stuff too. Standardised is great, but it does not fit completely with the tendency to make do with things till they are utterly unuseable which is found in many people. However, DN1 frames ( the type Robin has described) still sell today, and I have heard old timers say they are the only 'proper' frames. They are a thing that should, IMO, have been in the dustbin of history a long time back. This is not a UK phenomenon alone. Only recently we got a sample frame from France, and it is that type, and a consignment of acacia comb honey from Hungary for cutting, and it too is in frames which are not self spacing. Ditto a consignment from Spain about three years ago. The French have even made a plastic frame which is not self spacing (see the Thomas company catalogue, and their 'baticadre'), as this seems to be their way there. > >Should such dreadful equipment be tolerated at all? Well, the reason I feel >I should show it is that it is the stuff new beekeepers get given or buy >cheap. People tend to use it until they get keen enough to invest in proper >stuff, and often only then because it is worn out. Right on the money with that one! >If anyone knows how to persaude beekeepers that old hives are just junk, not >valuable historical items, please let me know. It is the curse of >small-scale British beekeeping. Not only small scale (although internationally speaking we all are) I can assure you. I am guilty of scavenging in winter myself, when some boxes I patch up are ones which should really have gone for burning. I even know one guy, a professional, who salvages thin sheets of wood from heaven knows where because it is cheap. It is half the thickness for box walls, and he spikes two sheets together to get the right thickness. Cannot see the economics myself, and if you look ahead to any potential 'end game', where is the 'exit with dignity' door? You will get nothing for gear like that, all to save a very small amount of money, and feel insulted and ruffled by what you get offered. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:53:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Winter Wrap On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:02:07 -0900, Keith Malone wrote: >> A well-known beekeeper here in Quebec proposed using "Thermofoil" You don't see any need to use darker abrorbition material. Your packs are reflective, I think soloar radiation is important. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:04:21 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ian & All, > You don't see any need to use darker abrorbition material. Your packs > are reflective, I think soloar radiation is important. > I think that for regions that have long cold winters it would be best to keep the bees on the cool side and not heat up the hive much at all. I think the bees should become active as the ambient temperature rises. Reflectix only insulates a little compared to other thicker materials and reflects heat in side the hive and reflects to suns rays from cooking the outer wall of the hive possibly overheating the inside of the hive when it should probably remain cooler. Like I said though, I am not wrapping the hives this winter because with recent observations I do not think the hives need wrapping. I could be wrong but this winter will tell for sure because we are right now having a normal Alaska winter that is snowy and cold. I will tell all how the bees make it through the winter come this spring. The hives have not been feed since the spring 2002, they have never had any form of treatments and have presently not been wrapped but do have 1/2 inch urethane board above the inner cover. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:30:02 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Waldemar Galka Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have read in a couple of books and believe to have seen it that emerging bees may sometimes be small but they all feed on pollen and continue to grow to average size. Waldemar Long Island, NY =================== > I also notice a variation in size of bees raised in the same size cells but > honestly never noticed a seasonal difference until you now point it out. I have noticed this variation over the years and put it down to nutrition. When nutrition and available nurse bees are plentiful, nice size bees. When nutrition is low and the nurse bee's protein levels in their body drop because of this, then smaller bees. Not nourished as much. Comments! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:15:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said: >We try to feed only enough so the bees have only got a couple frames of >honey left at the spring rework so hefting hives is easier. >At times we bring frames of honey to add . Mike replied: If I leave them too close on stores, and the weather is bad for a couple weeks, the queens shut down. With plenty of stores they don't. I would rather have a little extra in the hive, than have to go around adding more. My partner likes Mike's method. I prefer to monitor and feed as neccessary in spring and stimulate feed after my spring work is done if possible. There are many ways to keep bees and all work so each beekeeper has to decide which method works best for his/her location. I find it very interesting to see the many different ways beekeepers work their bees. As Mike points out his method certainly works for him as shown by his honey production average per year! I said; >You want to start when the queen is only on a couple frames of eggs/larva so she is easy to find. Mike replied: What would be the point? I don't search for my queens anyway. It is important to me to find and evaluate each queen when I do the spring overhaul. If the queen has been superceded I mark her and note she has been superceded. I do not requeen at this time but mark hives those needing a new queen. Many beekeepers ordering queens from a queen producer do not realize the normal queens are shipped only if eggs are seen as an indication of mating. You can get queens which are evaluated and shipped after a couple frames of eggs have been layed *but at extra cost*. When we raise queens we wait till a frame or so of eggs has been layed before caging to make sure we get the best queens. We cull the rest . We found the above helpful especially when we were raising SMR breeder queen daughters. I check EVERY frame for foulbrood. I arrange the hive in the center of one box with the brood nest in the center. I pull extra brood. I leave a frame of pollen and hopefully a couple frames of honey. I cull inferior frames. I cull boxes with problems! I remove frames with what I consider too much brood comb. If time permits I take the MT box in for evaluation and repair and return later. If time does not permit I place the MT box on top of the rebuilt hive. The only beekeeper which does such a labor intensive spring rework I have talked to has been David Hackenburg while wintering in Florida. Mike said: This is how I handle my bees here in my area. I know it's not what you do, Bob, but it works well for me. I am a honey producer, not a pollinator. ..hoping you'll try to understand my methods...on the 45th...and not compare them to yours...considerably south of there. With the information included in the last post I intend to set aside a yard and try your methods to see the difference naxt year. I in fact kept bees by your method about 20 years ago and did harvest the early Locust and dandelion nectar. Perhaps your method might work better for honey production in our area. I had supers on a month earlier by your method but had a great deal of swarming which I see very little of with mine.Thanks for sharing your methods. For those hobby beekeepers on BEE-L reading about both mine and Mikes methods realize we have only given a rough plan. It would take many pages of emails to fill in all the details. I would suggest maybe to only use a hive or two to experiment with at first if planning on trying either plan. Like Murray says most longtime beekeepers can evaluate a hive in minutes and little escapes our eyes. Bob : :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:44:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob and Everyone, >About the only thing I could add which might help in your "musings" is that >I have seen many a worker raised in *drone cells* .... I've seen that a few times, expecially with new queens laying their first brood cycle. I had forgotten about it:>) >I also notice a variation in size of bees raised in the same size cells but >honestly never noticed a seasonal difference until you now point it out.... I first saw the smaller bees right after regressing early in the spring. Some of those observations were posted on Bee-L. Why did I see smaller bees when I first started regressing? First of all I was now looking for them! And I attributed them to the small cell comb. Maybe all new bees are small cell size in the early spring when compared to the size of the overwintered bees. And I didn't have anything to compare against. I had regressed all my hives. >You have got my curiosity up so will try and do a few small cell experiments >this year such as you did and see if I get the same results. I think it's important to see for ones self. Small cell beekeeping is floating in a sea of speculation. And this speculation often repeated takes on the attributes of fact. More observations will certainly help seperate the wheat from the chaff. >What type camera did you use to take those pictures as they were excellent? It's a Canon A40. Digital photography is so much easier for me than using film. I can take hundreds of shots and keep only a couple of the best ones. I was just too cheap to do that with film, so I took fewer shots and very few good ones:>). The A70, a newer model, has a macro mode that allows shots as close as 2". That's almost as good as the Nikons! It will be interesting to hear of your results and maybe see some of the action in your photos. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:22:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hive robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I said: I remove frames with what I consider too much brood comb. Sorry ! Should have been drone comb! We are busy setting big bales today and I was typing fast earlier. A swinger forklift works great for big bales as long as you do not cut the wheel sharp with the bales high in the air or over you go! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:37:21 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Waldemar Galka" " I have read in a couple of books and believe to have seen it that emerging bees may sometimes be small but they all feed on pollen and continue to grow to average size. I have noticed this variation over the years and put it down to nutrition. When nutrition and available nurse bees are plentiful, nice size bees. When nutrition is low and the nurse bee's protein levels in their body drop because of this, then smaller bees. Not nourished as much. Comments!" Waldemar may have read Mark Winston, Biology of the Honeybee, 1987, (pages 60-61) and Ribbands, Behaviour and Social Life of Honeybees, 1953 (pages 233-234) - if there are other commonly available references I would be interested to hear. Ribbands records one study that lavae consumed on average 145mg of pollen (=4.67mg nitrogen) and another study found 125mg.of pollen per larvae. Haydak found in 1935 that colonies transferred to pollen free combs continued to raise larvae but the adult bees lost 3.21mg of nitrogen per larvae raised, only 1.73mg of which was in the emerging bees (1.48mg was lost in converting bee protein back to brood food). So, brood rearing when there is shortage of pollen results in emerging bees that have down to a third the normal amount of nitrogen in their bodies and their nurses have lost weight also. So, if pollen reserves run out say 1 Feb, then bees that emerged between 25 Jan (the nurses) and 21 Feb could all be undersized. Farrar found in 1936 that colonies which had only 6% less bees in April than the previous October had consumed 612-626 sq ins of pollen reserves = say 4 entire sides of frames 14x12 inches, (while colonies with only 160-170 sq inches of pollen reserves were only half size in spring). Winston states that emerging bees eat pollen over the first 8-10 days during which they gain weight (but I cannot find figures ). Lack of protein in that period means bees do not attain normal weight (small bees) - and shortens life. The type of pollen can be important - Maurizio in 1960 grouped pollen for nuitritive value. Studies in 1971 showed reduced longevity in bees fed dandelion pollen. So, keep away from those apple orchards unless the grower has cut the grass! So, the observations that smaller bees can be found at times does suggest those colonies may be short of pollen . I wonder if such underfed bees then draw out smaller cells simply because they use their own bodies as the guage - basically, that they work from the inside and shape the cell around themselves. I wonder if larvae then raised in such smaller cells may be smaller in turn, because they stop eating when their bodies fit the (smaller) cell. If so, smaller bees may take some time to work out of the system. Does anyone have records of the sq inches of pollen consumed in their colonies and whether there were small bees or not in spring? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:06:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Hive robbing In-Reply-To: <001a01c3b36f$4c215320$46a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >It is important to me to find and evaluate each queen when I do the spring >overhaul. As I said, our season is at first delayed, and then fast on us, and then over. I prefer to allow the queens to prove themselves. Supercedure queens might be just as good as raised or bought ones. In face, I like bees that supercede successfully. I think it a good trait. Better for sure than the ones that want to requeen by swarming. > >I check EVERY frame for foulbrood. I only check four frames of sealed brood. I find that enough. >The only beekeeper which does such a labor intensive spring rework I have >talked to has been David Hackenburg while wintering in Florida. But he's in Florida, and has the time. > >With the information included in the last post I intend to set aside a yard >and try your methods to see the difference naxt year. Perhaps your >method might work better for honey production >in our area. I had supers on a month earlier by your method but had a great >deal of swarming which I see very little of with mine. >Bob I see some cells started about mid-dandelion flow. These I cut out when I reverse the brood nests...as long as they are young cells...cups with eggs, or young larvae...and you must get every one!! This seems to stop the majority of colonies swarming. Colonies full of sealed cells need to be handled differently...split in half with a nuc board, letting each half raise a new queen.. I have less than 10% swarm each year...way better than my old methods when many of the good ones would swarm and some of the duds would too. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:09:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith wrote: >I am not wrapping the hives this winter because with recent observations I do not think the hives need wrapping. Last spring my most robust overwintered hive was one that was insulated with an inch of styrofoam and wrapped in tar paper. The top was insulated with 6-7 inches of crushed peanut shells of all things. The hive was split in late spring. My most productive hive at summer’s end was one that had overwintered unwrapped and on an open screened bottom board. Other hives were either insulated or not. While I didn’t keep records, it seems as though there was not much difference in either in strength or production and some colony losses. The one 4.9 hive I own overwintered last year unwrapped on an open screened bottom and was not treated with anything. This summer there seemed to be only a few mites in the hive although some chalkbrood had appeared as it did in some other colonies of mine. It is being overwintered again unwrapped and untreated. As you said Keith, looks as though we might actually have a winter here in Alaska this year (and some cross-country skiing!). Some of my hives are insulated. Some are not. We’ll see what the spring brings. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:04:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Winter Wrap In-Reply-To: <200311260609.hAQ67JeB004459@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen wrote: > Keith wrote: > >>I am not wrapping the hives this winter because with recent observations I >> do not think the hives need wrapping. > Last spring my most robust overwintered hive was one that was insulated > with an inch of styrofoam and wrapped in tar paper. The top was insulated > with 6-7 inches of crushed peanut shells of all things. The hive was split > in late spring. In Maine, moisture control is critical to successful overwintering. I was taught to use a fiber board to capture moisture and it works exceptionally well. Dicks use of peanut shells is an excellent moisture trap so it could have been the cause for the robust colony as much as the additional insulation. There is a lot in the literature concerning winter wrap. One reason is to keep the cluster intact which means keeping the bees cold, especially in locations that hover around freezing during the winter. In areas where it is below freezing through most of the winter, wrapping is not as necessary, but does give benefits, especially from wind and extreme cold. Here in Maine, I have two friends who wrap. I have observed that their success in beekeeping has more to do with their beekeeping during the rest of the year than in the fact they wrap bees. One does very well and other not so well. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:37:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: shook swarm method EFB and AFB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just out in Apidologie this month is a paper from the UK regarding the combination of oxytetracycline treatments and shaking bees onto foundation for the management of EFB. The abstract is below. Below the UK abstract is a second abstract from 2001 regarding shaking bees onto foundation without antibiotics for the management of AFB. ABSTRACT 1 Controlling European foulbrood with the shook swarm method and oxytetracycline in the UK Ruth J. Waite, Michael A. Brown, Helen M. Thompson and Medwin H. Bew National Bee Unit, Central Science Laboratory, York, YO41 1LZ, UK Abstract Colonies infected with European foulbrood (EFB) were treated with the shook swarm method in combination with oxytetracycline (OTC) and compared with those treated with OTC alone, the usual treatment for EFB in England and Wales. Success rates and instances of recurrence in the following season were recorded in the seasons 2000 and 2001 respectively. Both treatments had similar success rates with respect to elimination of EFB in 2000. Shook swarm plus OTC treatment resulted in a lower level of EFB recurrence in the 2001 season than OTC treatment alone. Colonies treated with the shook swarm plus OTC method showed a recurrence rate of 4.8%, whereas those treated with OTC alone had a recurrence in 21.1% of cases. The differences were shown to be significant at the 10% level. These results suggest that the shook swarm plus OTC method could be a valid method for EFB treatment and control in the UK. ABSTRACT 2 Effect of shaking honey bee colonies affected by American foulbrood on Paenibacillus larvae larvae spore loads Journal of Apicultural Research, August 2001, vol. 40, no. 2, pp. 65-69(5) Del Hoyo M.L.; Basualdo M.; Lorenzo A.; Palacio M.A.; Rodriguez E.M.; Bedascarrasbure E. Abstract: Honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies exhibiting clinical symptoms of American foulbrood (AFB, causative agent Paenibacillus larvae larvae) were divided into 2 groups that received different shaking treatments: (1), shaking adult bees into a new hive; and (2), shaking adult bees in front of the entrance to a new hive. Honey bee and honey samples were taken before shaking and 1, 22, 44 and 66 days after shaking. Microbiological cultures were made from honey and honey bee samples to determine P. l. larvae development. The average number of P. l. larvae cfu/g honey before shaking was 89.86 ± 17.93 (mean ± s.e.) and more than 500 cfu/bee for honey bee samples. Honey bee samples had more colony-forming units before shaking but differences were not statistically significant after shaking. An important reduction in the number of colony-forming units in honey bee and honey samples was detected after shaking by both methods and no significant difference was detected between them. Honey and honey bee samples were positive for the presence of P. l. larvae in every sampling but no AFB clinical symptoms were detected in the honey bee colonies after 5 months. These results allow us to conclude that both shaking methods reduce spore loads in new colonies without using chemicals and, using it with other management procedures would allow development of an integrated AFB control method. Adony :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:12:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin and Everyone, Some interesting comments on nutrition. I am sure that poor nutrition affects the size of the bees. Maybe poor nutrition is the norm and not the exception when brood rearing starts and ends each season. I have read that the winter bees are physiologically different and fatten up for overwintering. If so is it possible for them to put on surplus fat bodies while in a state of protein deprivation? I'm not sure how much pollen is stored in my colonies, but they do have a surplus stored under capped honey outside the core area of the broodnest. >So, the observations that smaller bees can be found at times does suggest >those colonies may be short of pollen . I wonder if such underfed bees then >draw out smaller cells simply because they use their own bodies as the >guage - basically, that they work from the inside and shape the cell around >themselves. This link between bee size and cell size is the kingpin of small cell theory. Yet, when my small cell bees were turned loose early in the spring, they drew out the large sized worker comb. The large cell bees raised in that comb were the very bees that drew out my small cell comb after the most of the original small cell bees had perished! This was during a major honey flow and as the bees were preparing to swarm. Just opposite of what would be expected by both nutrition and bee size. Starter strips of small cell foundation were placed adjacent to the core area where the bees were working on small cell comb. The starter strips were reworked into large cell size comb. It seems location is everything concerning cell size. The bees can somehow individually determine what kind of comb belongs where. If cell size was based on bee size and colonies contained a mixture of different sized bees, chaos would be the results. It's interesting to think about this as the bees must deal with all kinds of variables such as cavity size and shape, seasonal food availabilty, time of year, size of cluster, etc. Small cell literature stessed the importance of getting and maintaining a small cell bee. Feral hives are suggested as a source and much is written about establishing 'areas of influence' to control the mating and 'locking' in the small cell genetics. It has been suggested that my comb observations were the result of not having true small cell bees but mongrels. Yet if this link were valid, the comb building should have resulted in chaos as each bee attempted to build large or small comb undoing the work or her half-sister. At best, either large or small cell comb should predominate with the predominate bee. Yet the bees didn't build large OR/AND small cell comb. They built a structured broodnest with a gradational change from large cell size to small cell size! And yes my bees were mongrels, new world carniolans, mated in central California with all the other queen producers drones in that area.:>) But what a better test for this idea than my mongrel bees :>) It was interesting to watch the type of comb that was built as the food resources waxed or wained. In the heavest part of the flow, the bees expanded comb building horizontally. They didn't change cell size or modify the structure of broodnest. The focus would change with more bees working in one area or the other. But the broodnest structure was maintained. My own experience indicates that the bees will draw out the kind of comb they need when resources are adequate. When resources aren't adequate they simply refuse to draw out any kind of comb. Regards and a Great Thanksgiving to Everyone Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:18:45 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have read in a couple of books and believe to have seen it that emerging bees may sometimes be small but they all feed on pollen and continue to grow to average size. We were told in years gone by by the experts here in Australia that bees do not get bigger after they are born. The reason given is that the bee has a exo-skeleton meaning that its skeleton is on the outside and any body mass is put on or lost inside that skeleton. Humans however can put flesh on over their skeleton. Some of us are prime examples. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:10:17 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dick, >Other hives were either insulated or not. While I didn't keep records, it >seems as though there was not much difference in either in strength or >production and some colony losses. > I think last winter was pretty much useless in evaluating wintering proceedures. I lost my first hive since my new practice of using Canadian queens. The problem, starvation. I fed 75 pounds of sugar via syrup in the fall and the hive was bone dry by late winter. I postulate that it was too warm and the bees were too active, using up all the stores. Another unique Alaskan winter? Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:23:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dennis & all In a rising population, available nutrition is spread more thinly than in a falling one. I think that came from Malthus originally, but I reckon it applies to bees in the differences beween spring build up and autumn decline. Perhaps this is advantageous, as the most well fed bees will have the difficult time of winter to negotiate. Maybe it is this reason that bees become 'fitter and fatter' rather than any perceived notion of approaching winter? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 06:57:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Maybe it is this reason that > bees become 'fitter and fatter' rather than any perceived notion of > approaching winter? We know that nutrition determins whether an egg becomes a worker or a queen. What do we know beyond that? Is the bee milk from an older worker the same as the bee milk from young workers? How much does it vary with the colony nutrition level or quality? We know that colonies fed only some types of supplement cannot continue to raise brood after a while, in spite of having ample supplies. Seems to me also that I read, probably here somewhere, that a study showed that the transition from summer to winter bees normally took place at a certain time of the summer, but was found to ocur later if a new queen was introduced close to that time. Was this due to the new queen laying more eggs to be fed, the gap in brood rearing, the nature of the new queen? Dunno. Happy Turkey Day to our southern neighbours. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Extractor friction drives, Friction drives beekeeper, AFB test Kit, and More... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:57:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: Label problems Labelling my jars needs some improvement! I started with taping business cards but my hives have increased and production is a focus. I switched to some Avery labels with my inkjet printer and have 2 problems. 1-The ink bleeds with time, especially the colors. 2-The label does not put up very well with moisture, in other words the integrity of the paper does not hold up. Those that sell in stores near me (competitors I guess) seem to use preprinted labels. Is there a way that I can continue printing out labels on my computer that will look good for a longer period of time. I also use these labels for my wine and mead and occasionally for foodstuffs. I've searched the archives using keyword label or labels. In years past it sounds like others used similar labels that are now not working for me. Thank you, Joe :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 01:37:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Swanky Subject: Label problems Joe, I had the same problems, and these are especially noticeable when one does a lot of outdoor markets. For me, the solution was switching to a cheap color laser printer. Now my mead labels might get dusty in the cellar, but they are still presentable after three years of aging. If you get the better quality label paper, your labels will look as good as the preprinted ones. And the advantages of flexibility and just in time production make the difference worthwhile. Cheers, Tom :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:41:51 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Label problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Tom Swanky" For me, the solution was switching to a cheap color laser printer. Depending on how serious u are, it could be worth looking in your local stationery shop for a label printer. In UK, there is a range of label priners that produce just labels one by one (not full sheets of A4). These are very professional - and cost less than an A4 laser printer. Otherwise, there was the tip recently from Yoon to spray inkjet labels with hair fixer. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:54:32 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Allen Subject: Label problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe, Try spraying your labels with quick dry, clear spray paint. Two very light coats of an inexpensive spray brand such as ColorPlace sold at Wal Mart works fine. The label may yellow over a long period of time. Another alternative might be laser labels. Print shops like Kinkos can laser print your labels from a disk to label stock. Cost here is about $1.00 per sheet. Good Luck, Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:14:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Label problems It's so convinent to let someone else do the work. We get ours printed on high quality waxy label paper for about 8 cents each. It comes in a roll. I took a picture of one of mine for you http://www.pbase.com/image/23696256 What I do to keep them from getting scuffed up, is to only put on the labels right before selling. Or at an open market, I label the first 3-4 of each kind, and keep the label roll next to me for adding as needed. You should get several quotes from printer's shops, as we noticed a wide range of prices. Regards Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:31:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Re: Seasonal Bee Size In-Reply-To: <000e01c3b4ee$5a51c3f0$37b85ad1@Pegasus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, November 27, 2003, at 07:57 AM, allen dick wrote: > > Seems to me also that I read, probably here somewhere, that a study > showed > that the transition from summer to winter bees normally took place at a > certain time of the summer, but was found to ocur later if a new queen > was > introduced close to that time. Was this due to the new queen laying > more > eggs to be fed, the gap in brood rearing, the nature of the new queen? > Dunno. > In April we read about findings at the University of Illinois related to the transition between house bee and forager being triggered by the "forager gene". (http://www.cyberbee.net/news/foraginggene.html is one place to read the information.) Has there been similar research or findings related to the transition between Summer and Winter bees, or what the difference might be between them? > Happy Turkey Day to our southern neighbours. Thanks, Allen. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:34:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Trevor and Everyone, > I have read in a couple of books and believe to have seen it that emerging bees may sometimes be small but they all feed on pollen and continue to grow to average size. >We were told in years gone by by the experts here in Australia that bees do not get bigger after they are born.... I have been told the same thing. But wonder if it is true. I often marked my breeder queens when queen rearing. Immediately after mating, most of the queens would be small in both the thorax and abdomen. A month later most of those runts could look pretty impressive. The paint spots would stay the same size(I think) but the thorax would be much larger. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:00:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave, Allen and Everyone, The effects of nutrition introduce a whole new set of factors. I know that fall introduced queens will produce brood longer and that those hives will do better the following spring. Why? Yikes! :>) I have also read recently that starved mammals pass on certian attributes genetically as a result of the starvation. Something about methyl rings or ??? truncation or ???. Could bees do the same? It's way above this old bee wranglers veil. But it's all very interesting to think about and I enjoy reading these posts. Regards Dennis A self certified bee nutrition and genetic dummy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::