From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:29:11 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.0 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,URI_SCHEME_MIXED_CASE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D4A49073 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZei011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0312B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 218437 Lines: 4838 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 23:24:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Murray & All, Murray said: Tried getting on the Kona supply list for May? I've been wanting to get on it for years without success. The big boys, many of them in Canada, have had them fully booked so far ahead that I may never get on that list. Attending conventions as Allen points out puts a face with a name. I will talk to the owner when I am in Jacksonville and see if i can help. I know Kona queens has had trouble getting help which might be part of the problem or perhaps problems have happened with queen shipments into Scotland. I will try and find out and get back with you. We were able to get early Kona queens last year and we were pleased with the queens. My beekeeper partner ( we many times work our operations together, do pollination together and buy supplies together) flew to kona queen last fall and toured the operation. He was impressed and took many slides. He also brought me back a jar of nasty tasting honey made from Macadamia nut and coffee tree blossoms. Yuk! Murray asks; Just where do they go about sourcing 35000 queens? Not doubting it, just curious. Horace Bell gets most his queens/cells from his close friend Reg Wilbanks of Georgia. Reg is a fourth generation queen breeder. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:41:54 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: The Victors Subject: Re: frozen honey MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi All, Just thought that I would throw my own two cents worth in here on the subject of frozen honey. This fall I did an experiment with some honey that was extracted and held in the settling tank for a couple of days at 85 degrees Fahrenheit. Several one pound bottles were drawn off from the bottom of the tank. Some were placed in a standard freezer and kept there at about - 10 degrees Fahrenheit. Some were placed in a warm area of the house. Some were placed in the garage at about 60 degrees Fahrenheit. The garage honey clouded up within a couple of weeks as I expected it would. The honey in the freezer did not cloud at all as long as it was frozen and neither did the honey that was in the warm room (above 70 degrees). I rapidly thawed the frozen honey by placing it in a container of water that was about 80 degrees. It was then placed in the same room with the honey that was never cooled or frozen. Within 3 or 4 days it had begun to cloud up and is significantly more cloudy now a couple of weeks later. The honey that was never frozen or cooled below room temperature is still as clear as it was when I bottled it up. I can only conclude that the freezing somehow was a factor in the crystallization process. Steve Victors Big Lake, Alaska :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 23:54:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Time to think of the US meetings coming up in January MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: I did a quick analysis, and it seems that the two meetings are 1,100 miles apart, with two days in between. 1084 miles to be exact. A long and very boring drive across interstate 10. Allen said: So far, I have not decided which one to attend, or both. I *want* to go to Florida, but I have business in Texas. I would like to have attended both. I especially would like to have attended Charlie Harper's talk and the tour of the John Milam operation. I chose instead to travel to Georgia and spend New Years Eve and time with my brother and his family. Also being in the RV the trip across interstate 10 would have to be made faster than I care to travel while on vacation or push my old RV. The two conventions need a week in between for those on vacation to attend both. I rush around all year but not going to rush on vacation. If I see a place I want to visit I stop. I will be at the ABF convention in Jacksonville. I look forward to meeting members of BEE-L in attendance. Because attending the ABF convention is only a small part of my vacation I will not be staying at the hotel but the hotel is beautiful and the cost is very reasonable. Look at the normal rates on the door and you will see what I mean. Right on the ocean with a huge pool ! I will be in Georgia and Florida for around a month. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:49:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anonymous Ok Subject: Re: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit am trying to perserve the comb in its natural state if possible.Think it will make a great teaching tool for new beekeepers.Thanks for the idea of freezing tho.jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:54:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ed Geels Subject: Carbon isotopes ratios in Sugars If anyone has any references to this I'd appreciate having them and learning something new. In my training I was taught that all plants doing photosynthesis (including the cane sugar plant, beet sugar plant and all flowering plants included) acquire their carbon from the carbon dioxide of the air. The ratio of carbon-12, carbon-13 and radioactive carbon-14 in carbon dioxide is constant worldwide and so in all living plants (and animals and humans that consume them) this ratio is also constant. The ratio only changes after the plant/animal/human dies and then the carbon-14 decay results in a lower amount of carbon-14 and this provides the basis for dating very old archeological specimens up to about 30,000 years old. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 04:26:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone In-Reply-To: <3FD20749.9060005@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > This discussion (thanks to my error) has gone far > afield. I am afraid you are pushing me a step farther afield. > I do not think > you are saying that sucrose is a contaminant of > honey Indeed, I do not. I say syrup sugar "honey" is a lower quality product than nectar honey. Then, if nectar honey is diluted with sugar syrup "honey", the honey quality is affected. >, since it is a > component of nectar and in some plants, the dominant > and nearly > exclusive sugar. In essence, those plants are > producing "sugar syrup". No. They are producing nectar : a mix of sugars, yes, but with other molecule which, even at low concentration, are responsible for the taste of the product (I mean other tastes than "sweet"). All nectar have saccharose solution, yes, but all saccharose solutions are not nectar. If I considere an analogy: wine is mostly composed of water. If you add water to the wine, you affect its quality. No contamination here. Just diluting the taste, modifying product's balance. I could have chosen whisky as well. Change only the kind of water used for scoth preparation, you will change the taste... just because of some trace (really trace this time) minerals in different waters. > I do not know how you can separate the sucrose in > cane sugar syrup from > the sucrose in nectar since sucrose is sucrose. I do not either. And I would be very curious to know if there is a method of analysis to distinguish sugars origin in honey. Saccharose (I use saccharose because I think sucrose is a synonym of saccharose but I am not sure) is saccharose, yes. And so ? The trouble is not so much that saccharose is added, the trouble is that only saccharose is added (and I stop here because I do not want to enlarge the debate to the modification of sugars proportion in honey when syrup sugar -which will end in a 50% fructose, 50% glucose solution - is added). > I have some difficulty with any definition of "pure" > honey since it gets > us into the morass of "organic" and the like. Honey > that comes from > nectar (and aphids) can also have other collected > "nectars" (like soft > drinks) as has been noticed by most beekeepers. Once again, I do not accept this argument (but I can accept or refuse, it won't change anything). I understand some bees can, times to times, collect some mL (milliliters) from an exotic source of sugar. OK. And consequently one can produce honey from sugar syrup ? Or consciently dilute nectar honey sold "natural honey"? I do not understand the logic here (but there are many things I do not understand). Those sources are exceptions. Otherwise, change your location (using "your", I do not point anyone, once again nothing personnal in my discussion). > So > if any sugar syrup > "honey" ends up in a super it would be undetectable > as an added sugar, > and truth is, would have little effect over all > since it would be > overwhelmed by the sucrose already present in the > nectar brought in by > bees. Especially if the bees were collecting from > plants whose nectar > was primarily sucrose. Several hypothesis here. It would mean that sweet is sweet, whatever sugars propotions are while the 3 sugars have different tastes(thus their relative proportions should change the type of "sweet" sensation). It would mean the dilution does not affect the product... which means, at its extreme position, that trace substances in nectar (responsible for the floral taste) do not participate in the taste...some kind of paradox. Anyway the real test is easy for all: just eat your "winter honey" (in early spring) and then eat some summer honey. If you do not make the difference, I agree : why bother ?. Hervé ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Avec Yahoo! soyez au coeur de la récolte de dons pour le Téléthon. http://fr.promotions.yahoo.com/caritatif/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 00:23:39 -0700 Reply-To: ttownsen@telusplanet.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Townsend Organization: TPLR HONEY FARMS Subject: Re: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Are Herve and I really so alone in this list? > No, you are not. Any of the commercial beekeepers at least up here in Canada, are very aware of the testing our honey goes through, to the parts per million. Added sucrose can be detected in amounts over 7 %. Certain honeys run in a range for sucrose content, I also think that sucrose isn't just sucrose, because added sugar, be it beet, can, rice, or corn produced can and is being detected in some honeys. The point remains, we must do the best job we can to ensure a "pure" product, or do we just throw whatever we want at the bees, and throw our arms in the air, and say this is what other beekeepers are doing. The comment about the dog run is somewhat off the point, bees need salt and they will collect it from whatever is handy, but that does not mean that it is being stored with the honey. Bees use salt, but I do not believe that they store it? Anyone out there checking their hives for urine receptacles?? :-) >Where I do now agree with Ol Drone is that the meaning or contamination is >shifting and it is too strong in this context. > I still think you have to call it what it is, we HAVE to take every precaution to insure the quality of the FOOD product we are producing, what the bees gather on their own, is not the same as what the bees are given by us, the beekeepers. Especially when we know it may end up in the honey supers. > 'Dilution' of floral honey >with sugar honey might be a better description - accurate and less >inflammatory - but still a worry ! And IMHO far from ridiculous as a topic >for Bee-L to discuss! > >Robin Dartington > >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 10:18:38 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, Allen & all Bob said... > Replacing queens which are obviously failing is not rocket science. > What else are you going to do and what are you risking as the hive is > already in trouble. I was not talking about replacing queens that were 'failing'... The queens that I would be replacing are those that show the least desireable traits, they would not be defective and would probably have a couple of years 'useful' life left in them. This is especially true when requeening early in the year from overwintered mating nucs, but then the queens that are pulled from the large hives are put back into the bulked up mating nucs to lay up brood for later when the nucs will be put to their main use. > Almost all commercial honey producers will say that queens in the third > to fifth year are swarmy and the queen can fail at any time. This is the case in US, but in UK it is subtly different... The colonies with queens that are tailing off are likely to supercede rather than swarm, particularly later in the season. Allen said... > a supplier within 1,000 miles of their operation. Moreover, their > operation may move thousands of miles over a year, and the owner > and his crews may be a thousand miles from some of the hives at any > given time. There are no 'local conditions' in such an operation. Now that is a situation that I have no experiance of at all, Nor do we have a UK counterpart... Some hives may be moved a fair distance for pollination or heather honey production, but distances and hive number are much smaller than in US. I have no idea where to start to find a strain that is 'good' for a travelling lifestyle. > They also like to have uniform hives for easy management, and > supercedure queens can lead to variable hives. We also seek uniform hives, but in our case the supercedure is working with us rather than against us. > In their travels, they can pick up some bad characteristics (AHB?) if > supercedure queens are allowed to continue. Regular requeening can > forestall that. The nearest thing we have in common here is that travelled bees might pick some 'out of strain' genes, but they will likely be the ones that show up as undesireable and be the first candidates for replacement queens. If not replaced quickly by the beekeeper they may well be weeded out by the weather conditions. > Additionally, if a beekeeper is using hygienic stock, supercedure queens > prove susceptible, and cause breakdown with disease. With any stock that has been bred out of the context of the drones in the area of operation, you will either have to continually requeen or install a set of guard ring apiaries that contain the desireable drones. Murray said... > that even on my comparatively tiny scale, if a supplier could offer me > queens effective in my area they would get a big order every spring. I am not surprised that Murray would opt for strains that were more effective, but I would have thought that would be difficult to find in his case, as the bees he uses and the methods he has developed to use them seem to me to be very well adapted to his region and his forage. > I do not happen to believe a lot of the stuff about bought in queens > being naturally inferior to what you breed I am not suggesting that such queens are 'inferior', but that they are 'out of context' in relation to the background genetics in an area, and thus will not mix as amicably as would locally raised stocks. As to bulk orders for 35,000 queens... My mind just boggles :-) Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:58:21 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Carbon isotopes ratios in Sugars Ed said: > In my training I was taught that all plants doing > photosynthesis (including the cane sugar plant, > beet sugar plant and all flowering plants included) > acquire their carbon from the carbon dioxide of the air. The difference depends upon the specific photosynthetic process used by each plant. Honey "should" be made from "C3" (Calvin cycle) plants rather than "C4" (Hatch-Slack cycle). > The ratio of carbon-12, carbon-13 and radioactive carbon-14 in > carbon dioxide is constant worldwide and so in all living plants The ratio of C-13 to C-12 is exactly what varies between C3 and C4 type plants. Carbon-14 is a non-issue here. A Google search on "C3 photosynthesis", "C4 photosynthesis", "Calvin cycle", or "Hatch Cycle" ought to give you the information you want. jim (Who wonders: What Would Jesus Do... ...for a Klondike Bar?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:17:08 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Waldemar Galka Subject: Re: Honey in carpet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I would be concerned about possible chemicals in the carpet itself or from previous carpet cleanings. I would not want to get those back into the hive. I would take the carpet outside and wash it out with a rubber hose. And not use carpets were I process my honey! Honey is food for humans and bees. Waldemar Long Island, NY ======================================== Yes, after scraping up as much honey as you can, Soak up more with plain kitty litter. It has worked for me. Then scrape that out(side). You can give all of this back to the bees for feed. They will take it. Now go rent a rug doctor and stream it clean. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:53:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Like Oil and Water or Gravel and Sand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > With any stock that has been bred out of the context of the drones in > the area of operation, you will either have to continually requeen or > install a set of guard ring apiaries that contain the desireable > drones. At the B.C. meeting, I heard an illustrated presentation by a scientist from France, and from what I gathered, the mixing of genes between nearby apiaries with difference genetics is not as we would expect. I arrived late, and was at the back of the room, but, from what I could understand of the rather technical discussion, illustrated by faint slides with small type, the mixing between yards was *much* less than one would expect. Moreover, not all strains of bees interbreed well, and if they do, not all crosses are stable. Like oil and water, or gravel and sand in a stream, differing strains may re-separate over time, due to differing habits, adaptations, viabiliites, and deliberate selection within a hive through preference shown by workers for some (related?) eggs or queens over others, and other mechanisms. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:15:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps In-Reply-To: <000901c3bc16$469b6f80$44a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >I thought everyone knew that if you seperate the brood nest far enough that >the queens pheromones are not strong in the isolated section that bees will >make queen cells. When I make cell builders...queenright... the unsealed brood is placed above an excluder. I usually make up 5 at a time. 1 or 2 always have cells started 9 days later. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:54:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: MattAllan@AOL.COM Subject: Pollination of almonds in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there anyone who has facts and figures at their fingertips who can help? I can find a lot of information and discussion about pollination of almonds in California, but not so much about Spain. I am trying to find out how many honeybee colonies are used for almond pollination in Spain. Has anyone got a clue? Regards Matthew Allan Matthew J Allan Oxford Bee Co Ltd tel (0044) 23 8065 2930 fax (0044) 23 8065 2934 mob (0044) 787 0234 827 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:27:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I do not think >> you are saying that sucrose is a contaminant of >> honey > > Indeed, I do not. > I say syrup sugar "honey" is a lower quality product > than nectar honey. Then, if nectar honey is diluted > with sugar syrup "honey", the honey quality is > affected. Let's keep it simple. *Sucrose* is a normal part of honey, as normally defined: The nectar of flowers, gathered and stored by bees. *Sugar syrup* is not. Many good beekeepers feed sugar syrup and or HFCS to bees. Some good books recommend doing so. Some scruplulous beekeepers are afraid that the sugar syrup fed -- either in ignorance at the wrong time, or due to being moved around by the bees -- can/will wind up in honey extracted for sale. Some people suggest this should be judged as absolute i.e. any amount -- no matter how infinitesimal -- is an adulteration. Others say, "Aw come on, a thimbleful in a truckload can't matter". In return the idealists say, "Where do you draw the line then"? The practicalists say, "I don't know. How about at the level where it can be detected?" The idealists say, "But that is at levels over 5%. That is no thimbleful. Better we just do not feed unless we can be certain none goes into the crop". The practicalists say, "But my bees will die, besides sugar syrup is in just about everything a person eats before the end of puberty". The idealists say, "But honey will be pure. If it isn't pure, and the buyers catch on, then honey will sell for the price of sugar syrup. How would you like that? Besides having 5% of our honey market occupied by sugar masquerading as honey drive the price of the 95% real honey component down ". The practicalists say, "Keeping my hives alive lowers my cost of production. I can sacrifice a bit of market and price for that end. Besides a thimbleful in a truckload can't matter". Loop until? --- Someone else says, "Is that sugar syrup in my kosher honey kosher? Organic? Another says, "I'm wondering about those extra-floral nectaries". To be continued... allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 22:08:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Long-Term Consequences of Annual Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/6/03 8:18:08 PM, yskim@STGREGORYS.EDU writes: << I am merely talking about requeening solely to invigorate the egg-laying and thus maximize the honey production. >> Yoon, laying quiet in the background, I have to CHALLENGE your statement about "invigorating egg laying". Possibly some beekeepers might believe that a new queen "invigorates" queen laying, and perhaps this might be true if one is comparing the output of a 2-3 year old queen to that of a 2 month old queen. However, at least for me who is only a hobbyist or sideliner who requeens annually ALL my 100+ colonies, queen fecundity has nothing to do with the reason. The reason for annual requeening is "pure and simply" SWARM control, because the ability of a very young queen to produce large quantities of queen pheromone that BONDS her progeny into a singular unit without thoughts of division by swarming has been WELL-PROVEN in recent years. SWARMING is the "arch enemy" of high honey production, and a smart beekeeper will do all he can to minimize swarming- both the smart hobbyist and almost all commercial beekeepers. In fear of getting into some wild genetic discussion, I will simply say that annual Requeening with a purchased queen is of great advantage to colony success compared to allowing your queens to mate possibly with drones from your other colonies. God forbid interracial breeding like an Italian-Carniolan breeding. However, also, God forbid, the breeding of one of Carniolan DAUGHTER virgins to some Carniolan drone NEPHEW in my own apiary. Hence the purchase of Carniolan queens, all from DIFFERENT queen breeders, WHERE EVERY BREEDER IS USING NEW WORLD CARNIOLAN BREEDER QUEENS PRODUCED BY SUE COBEY, is the ideal situation. This DISTRIBUTES genes, but within the same RACE of bees. Yoon, I trust you will have a FINE HOLIDAY SEASON. George Imirie, retired scientist Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Beginning my 72nd year of beekeeping near Washington DC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:32:03 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Like Oil and Water or Gravel and Sand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "allen dick" mixing between yards was *much* less than one would > expect." I have always wondered how virgin queens find drone asemblies so quickly. It is one thing for the drones - there are many of them and they have nothing else to do. But is one reason for there being so many drones per colony that the drones take it in shifts to wait for the virgin to fly and then lead her to the assembly area? If so, the drones from her own hive would have an advantage - they would know both when the virgin flew and which assembly she would go to. This would increase chances of mating with drones from the same yard . Cross mating would not be eliminated wholly - so genetic mixing would still happen. Any observations to support this wild surmise? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:08:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Sugar Honey - compromise In-Reply-To: <003b01c3be3f$dc585760$069cbc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Having private (gentlemen) discussion with Mike and reading Allen's post, it appears I made myself unclear. I DO use sugar syrup. And if I feel my bees are starving in March/April, I WILL use sugar syrup. And if I want fast drawn combs, I WILL use sugar syrup also. My message is : sugar syrup may affect honey quality, it has to be managed. Assuming it has no impact without checks, without calculations is not good practice, IMHO (based on my own experience). 1. The risk Estimate (or extract) the winter honey stores left in the hive when the first real nectar flow (dandelion for me) is coming. Let's say, this is about 2 frames (the ones in position 1 and 10 in the bottom box for example, reasonnable ?). 2 caped frames, say 4kg of sugar honey. Let's say you do just one harvest (maximum dilution), take your average harvest. You have a potential content of sugar honey in your harvest. Make your own idea according to your own practice (winter on 1 or 2 boxes, spring feeding, early apple blossom harvest, and so on). 2.The management Your own practice, your own risk, your own risk management. I want early floral honey (dandelion, raspberries, etc) also. Then I extract winter honey as soon as it reasonnable for me. For drawn combs, hives or nucs dedicated to this task will not participate to the "harvest to be sold". Make your own idea 3.The cost I have few hives for my hobby. If I had 1000 hives, my management would probably be costly (because of spring extraction and winter honey disposition). 1000 hives times 4 kg equal : 4 000 kg of sugar honey. Yes this can be more or less. Assume a 50% standard deviation, that does not matter so much. 4000 kg times CA$5 = CA$ 20 000 (double for direct sell). An intersting trace in my pockets, all the more it would be costly to manage it once extracted. But extraction is my solution, there may be other solutions. As far as each one is comfortable with his product, it is OK. 4.Analysis and enforcement Detection limit about 5% if I understood well. That should mean a quantification limit about 10 to 15%. The lab may even report a higher quantification limit. Namely, between 5 and 15%, the lab is abble to say there is something but can not provide a precise content, concentration will be assumed with something like 33% standard deviation. Am I right ? So it is a tool that should not be easy to use in court, isn't it ? I have not seen studies about C3 versus C4 in honey nor hear any beekeeper in court for sugar honey in honey. Does it exist ? Anyway, I just hope each one can make his own idea without assuming bible words too quickly. Hervé ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Avec Yahoo! soyez au coeur de la récolte de dons pour le Téléthon. http://fr.promotions.yahoo.com/caritatif/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 06:17:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Like Oil and Water or Gravel and Sand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin asks: Any observations to support this wild surmise? None to support your wild surmise. It is a mistake in my opinion to attach human behavior to insects. To quote pg. 355 of The Hive and the Honey Bee (1992) "VIRTUALLY ALL BEE ACTIVITIES ARE DIRECTLY STIMULATED AND COORDINATED TO A LARGE DEGREE BY PHEROMONES" Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:58:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone In-Reply-To: <20031207032647.92564.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hervé Logé wrote: >>This discussion (thanks to my error) has gone far >>afield. > > > I am afraid you are pushing me a step farther afield. Your issue was 1% "contamination" by sugar syrup and that was more than could be accepted. It has moved from that to gross contamination and purposeful feeding to make honey, which is well beyond 1% sugar syrup in honey. No one on this list has supported that, but, if they feed for whatever reason, are being painted with that brush. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 08:25:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Like Oil and Water or Gravel and Sand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Any observations to support this wild surmise? Among the early explanations for the observed fact that EHB hives became Africanized quickly not vice versa, when AHB came to the area, was that the AHB drones flew at a different time (a bit earlier as per Janis?) in the day, and got all the queens first. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 08:18:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone In-Reply-To: <001201c3bdcf$039c4a00$3bb85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > Loop until? And the congregation said, "Amen". This discussion got way off track and confused. It all started with the term "adulterated" applied to sugar syrup fed to bees. But getting far afield is a bit common here, and often interesting. It is a practice of the list to chop quotes (and I agree) but often we lose just what is being replied to, so this discussion shifted back an forth between sugar syrup added to honey (adulterated) and sugar syrup fed to bees and some of the resulting "honey" ending up in supers. Thanks, Allen, for summing up the discussion correctly. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:32:15 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Pollination of almonds in Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am trying to find out how many > honeybee colonies are used for almond pollination in Spain. Has anyone got a clue? Matt, what are u up to? Are u trying to find out how many Osmia Rufa sticks would be needed to supplant honeybees for almond pollination in Spain? Honeybeekeepers, beware. The 'enemy' is on the move. (Only joking, Matt is a lovely man - but the supremacy of honeybees as pollinators is being challenged by Oxford Bee Company. And Osmia do not sting - so are attractive to farmers - and are around only for a short time each year, at precisely the time farmers need them). Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:18:29 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Honey/Sugar/O'l Drone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "allen dick" "Loop until?" allen gave us a lovely summary - except he did not include the market argument - which IMHO is all - which could be described as 'I am happy to buy honey for 12 times the cost of sugar so long as I believe it is pure honey. Tell me it may be diluted by up to 5% - or even up to 25% (the threshold for taste , according to tests mentioned in Johansson, Some Important Operations in Bee Management) and I will feel taken for a ride. You, the producers, must make up your mind. Guarantee you use production methods to produce pure honey and I will continue to pay. Use methods aimed to cut your costs which reduce the quality of honey u want me to buy, and I will cut the price I am prepared to pay to, let's say, sugar and a half'. Who will feel loopy then? If u produce to sell on the open market, respect the consumer - who now has increasing choice on whether to buy or not. Beekeepers cannot go on as if still living in Soviet Russia. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:57:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Like Oil and Water or Gravel and Sand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Any observations to support this wild surmise? In Gormanston, one of the presentations was a Drone Congregation Area demonstration led by Karl Showler. This was a very memorably part of the conference in Ireland, hiking around the golf course at the monestary with the beautiful green hills in the background! Karl had a bamboo fishing rod with a lure impregnated with queen pheremones which he used to try to locate the DCAs. Thinking back, I believe Karl really was putting us on, taking us for a hike, as DCAs tend to be in the same place, even year after year. I suspect he knew where the DCAs were located and merely took us on a liesurely walk to eventually bring us to where he knew the drones would be found. Perhaps not. Regardless I will forever be thankful to him for the afternoon and will always cherish the experience! But I digress. Robin wonders, "how virgin queens find drone asemblies so quickly." Based on my experience at Gormanston, I am sure the queens don't find the drones, the drones mob the queen! I base this belief on observations on Gormanston's golf course. We had located a DCA, actually off the golf course, we were on the football fileds (soccer fiels to us Yanks). Anyway, we were teasing the drones with the lure, throwing stones up to watch the drones dive-bomb the moving stone, we were having a grand old time. Then all of a sudden the entire group of drones abandoned our games in an instane and flew off in formation towards what had to be a virgin queen on her mating flight. We observed the black mass of drones fly off and congregate about a quarter to a half mile away, between the soccer filed and the castle and more or less hoover there where we assumed the virgin queen was flying. Now, are we SURE there was a virgin queen flying at that place and time? No, it was too far away and probably impossible to verify our speculation that it had to be the REAL THING that enticed our drones away from the false lure. More anecdotal evidence for our theory was found a day or two later when we were examining hives and found recently hatched queen cells. So, I was there and witnessed it. And now you've read it on BEE-L so it must be gospel that queens don't find drones, drones find queens! Aaron Morris - longing to go back to Gormanston! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 08:49:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Sugar Sensitivities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > reading Allen's post, it appears I made myself > unclear. Not really. You've made a number of good points. It's just that, if we agree with you, we don't bother to say so. If we disagree, or don't understand, however, we go on and on and on. And, actually, many others of us are not trying to resolve the issues, especially those that appear to be a matter of taste, but are reminded of something else interesting, and start a new subject without changing the header. Anyhow, there is one wildcard that I have been watching for, that, so far has not been played in this discussion. That card is this: Some people are sensitive -- allergic -- to refined sugar! The interesting thing about such sensitivities is this: they *can*, in extreme cases be more subtle than many laboratory procedures. For example, some people only need to come close to a peanut product to get a reaction. I'm not clear on how sensitive some people are to refined sugar, but, if the sensitivity is great and they are buying honey to avoid processed sugar, at best, they are going to be puzzled why they get a reaction to some honey. What it is about refined sugar that causes such reactions is not clear. Perhaps some stage of the refining process introduces something that is not always totally removed at the end. Dunno. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:06:18 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Winter Wrap In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Keith Malone wrote: >> Why would the wrapped colony not rearrange the stores during the >> warm periods? > > They would but not all the honey would be rearranged and if the next cold > period last to long they will be left away from the rest of the available > honey stores. What would happen if there were no warm period for the bees to rearrange stores? I have experienced that very thing in the past more than once. >> My point was that insulated colonies can withstand the cold long >> weather better. They hold a losser cluster, covering more surface >> space in the colony. > > And eat more stores in the process, and can run out of stores before > winters > end. I beleive Tom Elliot concluded that is what happened to him last > winter > with one of his colonies he keeps. I did have one colony, out of two, who did completely run out of stores last winter. I insulate with two inches of styrofoam board (blue board) on all sides and on top. In defense of not giving up insulation I would say that we had an extremely warm season last year. I do suspect it was the increased use of stores that resulted in a bone-dry hive. Also, I fed significantly less last year. I am on the opposite side of wrapping practice, but what works is what counts. Keith has not attacked my methods as not working, only described what worked for him. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:38:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen; Not only do I agree with EVERYTHING you said, but you "said it" so much better than I could possibly do. However, I want to be very specific about why a hobbyist with a few colonies in his back yard should RE-queen annually, and preferably in the fall rather than spring. When apis mellifera scutellata arrived in the U. S., shortly thereafter Hollywood fiction movies about "KILLER bees" scared the be jeepers out of most uninformed American adults; and suddenly, the American public did not want a honey bee within a 100 miles of their little white home in that friendly community of WONDERFUL AMERICA. Very young queens have the ability to produce large quantities of queen pheromone which INHIBITS swarming impulses. Queens older than 13 months no longer can produce much queen pheromone. Hence, by fall requeening ANNUALLY, the hobbyist accomplishes three things: swarming is diminished so neighbors don't call the police: his colony produces lots of honey that he can "give" to the neighbors; and lastly, his "pure" Italians or "pure" Carniolans remain "pure" by requeening as opposed to having a daughter virgin queen being mated with every Tom. Dick, and Harry drone that drifts down the street. Allen, I hope I see you at the ABF meeting in Jacksonville in January. Watch for me as I "whiz" around on my electric scooter (wheelchair). George Imirie, retired scientist Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Starting my 72nd consecutive year of beekeeping near Washington, DC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:13:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Re: Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following was edited by a moderator to remove quotes of the entire previous articles. We don't always take the time to do this, so please remember to check the guidelines before posting, folks. -- Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello Dave & All, > > I suppose a beekeeping discussion list would work better if divided > into the different categories of beekeeper. At our American > Beekeeping Federation meetings we do break our workshops down this > way. George I. of our list many times does the hobby. > A noted queen breeder does the queen breeders and a commercial > beekeeper does the sideline & commercial people. etc... Reply from: "Jim Armour" It seems to me that segregating the various levels/styles of beekeeping into different lists would end the cross pollination of ideas and information that makes this list particularly informative, educational and enjoyable. I have found, after several months of 'lurking', that the information I've read here by all the many beekeepers that subscribe to be some of the most interesting I have read anywhere. I think that is because it is real time beekeeping. Books are excellent for reference but nothing can compare with what is happening daily in the field with all kinds of beekeepers in all kinds of places. It has been nearly 20 years since my dad and I were in beekeeping. A lot of changes have taken place as evidenced by all that I've read here and when I get back in, hopefully next Spring, I will be a much better beekeeper than I would have had this list not existed and been as inclusive as it is. I want to read what the commercial, hobbyist and sideline beekeeper is doing. I want to know about the research that is, or not, being done. I don't want to miss anything and only by reading what the 'big boys' and others are doing will I feel fully informed. Thanks to all, Jim Armour West Tennessee -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 20:41:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Honey in carpet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've been curious regarding Dave's cracked bucket of honey leaking onto the carpet. If it were me, I would have bigger problems with my "other" honey. I'd have to be ready for at least a new carpet, a dinner out at a nice restaurant, and a lifetime commitment to heat honey in some other location other than the carpeted area. I hope you found a harmonious solution to this sticky problem. Grant --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 21:56:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: kirk jones Subject: queen replacement with cells In-Reply-To: <200312100500.hBA2wxHp013284@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii there was some talk of requeening with cells and I want to share that we use a couple thousand cells in our Florida operation every year, mostly in Feb, March and a bit in April. Works great. We ship about 700 to 800 hives down in Nov. for breeding stock. About 2400 stay north(I'm wondering why sometime, we leave any north, after last year). We split the hive in two and leave the original queen in the original site with a couple of combs of bees and honey. The top story is set off and screened on a new pallet until the end of the day then moved to a new site. Any unsatisfactory queens are killed and we introduce cells into all queenless hives and wait about 18 days to check back. Usually we get 80 to 90 percent take. We also make up 4 frame nucs as we split with the overflow of brood. We end up with about 1500 singles with new queens in over half and 500 nucs with new queens. Cells are great for us. All the hives are shipped north to Michigan in the middle of April. We always sell some. This year we will raise some cells and queens of our own. Kirk Jones www.sleepingbearfarms.com ===== Kirk Jones www.benzieplayboyz.com www.sleepingbearfarms.com greetings from Northern Michigan! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:46:58 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Good advice - was Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: George Imrie: " However, I want to be very specific about why a hobbyist with a few colonies in his back yard should RE-queen annually, and preferably in the fall rather than spring." People on this list tend to be quiet when in agreement . Can I say George has stated what I would support as one of the most important messages that can be put to the hobby beekeeper, for exactly the reasons he gives. Also, he has highlighted autumn re-queening, not spring. Autumn queens have a full summer ahead in which they can be evaluated - and the best kept another year perhaps, the worst culled. However, spring requeening is easier, as new queens are produced naturally if the Demarree principle is used to control swarming. The problem is that spring queens cannot be evaluated the same summer - the foragers are mostly the old queen's. And they do have time to prove themselves next spring before spring requeening comes again. So George is again so right to suggest autumn requeening, even if it means replacing the spring queens with a batch of carefully reared and mated late summer queens. Bee-L archives are awfully hard to use - so many heads. Is there a slot for dropping just the very best safe reliable and useful advice as a step towards a full definition of MODERN GOOD PRACTICE IN BEEKEEPING? (which is of course the Holy Grail I myself am always seeking). Could our moderators consider starting such a pot? How would we vote in or blackball specific items? Leave it to everyone to decide for themselves, I expect many will say. My interest in BEE-L is as a source of advice/information to include in training new beekeepers (which is why I am sometimes provocative - it flushes out comment) . As a trainer, I have to have the courage of some convictions. I do not believe in leaving beginners to decide for themselves, but in instilling fundamantal good principles that will keep the beekeeper straight. The time for forming your own opinions is when u have advanced to an 'improver'. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 21:24:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Long-Term Consequences of Annual Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ahoy, George: Am I glad to hear from you again, George, and I thank you for taking your time to reply to my meager rumination. Of course, young queens, as you put it, “glue” the colony against swarming a whole lot better; in fact, there is no better joy, I must confess, than watching the vigor of a colony led by a young queen, come nectar flow in the spring. It looks as though there is an aerial conveyer belt, of field bees, that stretches from the floral sources to the hive, and the whole yard is a-buzz! In an attempt to channel the inborn nature of bees rather than bending it, however, I was merely questioning, as you have already read in my previous postings, the automatic requeening process, as you profess to do. George, times do change, as you put it, and so must we. It would not hurt for us conscientious beekeepers, regardless of our size, to turn every stone in the nook and in the book to fight against the VD, the only major enemy in the south: I can say, on the record, that my bees have never suffered from Nosema, AFB, Chalbrood, or whatever but VD. As per your comment regarding the “interracial marriage,” my bees have been, over the years, changing from Carniolan dark to Italian leather- yellow, probably because the feral population is almost all Italian. I believe Allen, at one point, had observed the same although we seem to keep both races. I really appreciated Allen’s balanced observation on this massive requeening practice. This sort of discussion, or any discussion on Bee-L for that matter, tends to pit hobbyists against commercial operators with few sideliners thrown in between. Murray’s point “the might is always right” typifies such diatribe. When a “Big Boy” throws in his number (35,000) on the table of bee discussion, the hobbyists wet their pants. Not me. Remember under the Nazis, nearly 100% Germans believed in one truth and it ain’t right. As we honor local mentors, I believe localized stocks are better than any breeder’s stock thousands of miles away. I first hand observed feral- capture colonies [Italian] work earlier under colder conditions than Carnies although Carnies are known for that with longer wing span, being hardier, coming originally from mountainous regions. Come next swarm season, George, ask your students to help you capture a few feral bees/swarms and set them in an isolated yard and do a little experiment of every kind in the book. What are ten colonies of feral bees when you have a lot more? Given your scientific background and meticulous record- keeping, your observations will be invaluable for many, for I know you do not work for any special interests. Even better, given your life-long crusade for good beekeeping and blunt content of character, you would not, I know, give a damn. At one point, we all must “unlearn” what we have learned. Unlearning, I believe, is the last step in the learning process. I too challenge you to help us by keeping a feral yard. Tonight we had this year’s first snow, as the mercury plunges down to 20’s. I hope Montgomery County keeps the temp cold for your bees and yet warm for your comfort, if that is possible. George, take a good care of yourself, and keep talking. Yoon You are right on the money about the interracial marriage: I should know, for I married a foreign bride. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:24:28 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Like Oil and Water or Gravel and Sand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all > Moreover, not all strains of bees interbreed well, and if they do, not all > crosses are stable. Like oil and water, or gravel and sand in a stream, > differing strains may re-separate over time, due to differing habits, > adaptations, viabiliites, and deliberate selection within a hive through > preference shown by workers for some (related?) eggs or queens over others, > and other mechanisms It is just such 'oil and water' qualities that allow us to devise mating strategies to favour one race over another in areas that have many strains. One example stands out strongly... In Ireland the background has been AMM, but over the last century or so various imports have been tried (mainly Ligustica), the impact of these imports has been much less than that in mainland UK, due partly to the weather and partly to the different mating habits of AMM. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:05:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: queen rearing -interracial breeding George Imirie, In your post you stated a problem with interracial breeding of an Italian and Carniolan cross. Please expand on what problems could happen with this cross. I have been reaing queens for myself for 4 years and selling some to selected beekeepers in the local organization. I keep getting more and more demands for the queens, which are Carniolans. Even though I use drone foundation and set up drone mother colonies, I realize that open mating allows the Carnioln queen access to a larger population of Italian drones in the congration area. Most beekeepers within a 1-mile radius use Italians. Will this cross create unfavorable traits within the hives. I have not seen anything, so far that appears to be inadequite; but, I want to try to head off any future probles. Frank Wyatt Eden, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:05:59 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Like Oil and Water or Gravel and Sand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron & all In the years since Aaron was at Gormanston, the Drone Congregation Areas have been visited many times and a good deal of video footage has been taken of the activity of the drones close up to the lure. I have been (and still am ) attempting to get all of this footage into one place so that a tape or dvd can be made of it. There are indications that the process is not 'first come first served', it is difficult to be objective about it, but there seems to be some sort of queueing or pecking order. I have seen two low level mating flights (waist high or just above) of queens at Gormanston, pursued by comets of drones, on two successive years in the same place (near the flagpoles). > Aaron Morris - longing to go back to Gormanston! You really should submit to your longing! Bring some other B-listers as well :-) There is another aspect to the selectivity that is possible in mating, this was much talked about around thirty years ago, but I have not heard much about it recently and that is the ability of a queen to deliberately mate with (or ignore) a particular drone in the bunch. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:19:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Cross mating Italian and Carniolan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As many know, I am an enthusiastic supporter of Carniolans, specifically New World Carniolans, because that stock was developed and is constantly maintained and improved by Sue Cobey, now at Ohio State. Here in upstate NY, I have used it almost exclusively for over 20 years. To the extent that finally, during the past few years, my supercedure and after-swarm queens are showing a relatively high percentage of 'black', instead of 'yellow', which indicated crossing with Carniolan drones instead of Italian. Long background, but the point I want to make is that I believe we queen buyers have little chance of buying 'pure' Carniolans. Go to Sue Cobey's web site http://www174.pair.com/birdland/Breeding/, look at her list of approved breeders and jot down their locations. Go to www.mapquest.com and place them on a map. You will see that almost all are within a hundred mile or so radius of each other in Northern California. This is the heart of the world's largest (and, arguably most competent) community of queen producers. This area is also the home of a tremendous population commercial producers of honey. California leads the US in annual production of honey, and most of it comes from this area. Most (but not all) producers of NWC's also produce Italians, and most also run large numbers of hives for honey and pollination. Most of the queens and drones in the area are Italians as these are best suited for the climate and specifically for almond pollination, the income from which provides a fair amount of the 'queen producers' annual income! The forthright producers readily admit their suspicions that few queens sold as NWC are 100% mated to NWC drones. The numbers and lack of good isolation possibilities make that highly unlikely. Most choose their 'NWC' queens by reference to color. The 'black' are NWC, the yellow are Italian, and the intermediate are 'hybrids'. As we all know, the genes for color have little if any linkage to the genes for winter hardiness, temper, hygienic, tracheal mite resistance, etc. Some of these NWC queen producers annually purchase NWC breeders from Sue, and also select from their own stock for queen mothers. At least one only uses NWC breeders from Sue as queen producers, and at least one (not in Calif.) only uses semen purchased from Sue to inseminate his queen mothers. IMHO, these (and others that follow similar practices) have the 'best available' NWC queens. But not even these will come even close to telling anyone that their NWC queens are 'pure' NWC. So, don't be afraid of not getting 'pure' NWC's, because you can only get them via Instrumental Insemination (at $500 each). What we can get is at least mildly hybridized, but is damn good stock and for northern climates is just about unbeatable. (I have no inside knowledge, but I think it will not be long until we see VD resistance with NWC, via the SMR traits.) Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:50:36 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Sugar Sensitivities > Some people are sensitive -- allergic -- to refined sugar! The term "sugar sensitive" or "sugar allergy" has been (mis)used to describe nothing more than a (claimed) addiction to sugar, and carbohydrates in general. To my knowledge, anyone truly allergic to sugar (and hence, carbohydrates in general, including honey) would not survive infancy, for obvious reasons. Man in not a carnivore. Anyone who claims to be allergic to refined sugar will certainly try to avoid refined sugar, but this is a hopeless task for all but a 100% "raw foods" consumer. Therefore, it is yet another social position, wrapped in the perceived legitimacy of "medicine", yet another minor "disease" of only the wealthy and self-involved. The book that started all this hoo-ha was "Potatoes Not Prozac", soon followed by "The Sugar Addict's Total Recovery Program" by the same author. Don't bother buying either book, as they are nothing but claims that 400-lb people have a biological excuse for being morbidly obese. Using the same logic, I appear to be "sensitive" to obscure single-malts, popovers, black beans and rice, real maple syrup, and Dr. Pepper. Yeah, right. Geese don't get obese, and I wonder why. Perhaps it is because they regularly fly. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:43:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Long-Term Consequences of Annual Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yoon said: This sort of discussion, or any discussion on Bee-L for that matter, tends to pit hobbyists against commercial operators with few sideliners thrown in between. Because we all share the same list you will most times (but not always) get the opinions of the larger beekeeper. Beekeepers keeping bees for a living see things very different as mistakes cost time and money. Hobby is hobby. If your bees die you simply order another package. Most hobby beekeepers only want enough honey production to provide honey for family and friends which is all I would want if I kept a couple hives. Sideliners are "all ears" when the larger beekeeper talks (or they should be) as many of their procedures can be applied to sideline as sideliners are interested in the same things the commercial beekeeper is but on a smaller scale. Many times I would like to comment on hobby beekeepers ideas posted on the list but know they need to go ahead and make mistakes to learn and explaining the pro's and con's of a particular idea would take hours. Yoon said: Murray's point "the might is always right" typifies such diatribe. When a "Big Boy" throws in his number (35,000) on the table of bee discussion, the hobbyists wet their pants. It is not the number of hives George I. , Allen , Mike, Murray. Chuck N. ,Charlie H. or the other large beekeepers run but the number of years they have been keeping bees which causes people to listen. Granted numbers of hives and trying to keep bees for a living sharpens your skills. Many more fail than succed when attempting to keep bees for a living. If you ask a member of any of the bee labs they will be quick to tell you the input of a commercial beekeeper is neccessary at times when doing research. Yoon said: Not me. Bob's advice to Yoon: I always learned more by listening than I ever did by talking. Doing the opposite of what the beekeepers which have got years of experience advise on all issues is a sure way to fail in my opinion . Yoon said: At one point, we all must "unlearn" what we have learned. Why? There are basic truths in beekeeping. Also: "What we do not know is so vast that it makes what we do know seem absurd" Yoon said: Unlearning, I believe, is the last step in the learning process. Unlearning seems a big waste of time. I store all beekeeping information . I am always looking for better ways to improve my beekeeping and will change if I see a better method. When you keep bees in different areas you might need in the future a few of those methods Yoon says needs to be *unlearned*. Could you give us a couple examples of common beekeeping methods which in your opinion needs to be unlearned besides the use of chemicals to treat varroa as we needed those to keep an industry alive and hives for pollination. I will say that the current problems in beekeeping today has caused our researchers to look closer at the honeybee than any time in history. We are learning many new things about pheromones and mites but none of the new stuff has made me want to *unlearn* any of the information from years ago. Dennis Anderson shocked the world when he reported varroa J. was really varroa D in many parts of the world but even Dennis knew at the time that varroa D. can be further broken down into at least five different varroa d. Yoon said: I too challenge you to help us by keeping a feral yard. Most feral swarms today are swarms from beekeepers hives which have not been taken care of in my opinion (but not all). Most are headed by old queens and carry VD, TM , nosema and possibly honey with AFB spores and small hive beetle (if in areas of SHB). In my opinion the answer to our current beekeeping problems can be found in the research being done at the USDA bee labs and at places like Ohio queen breeders and a few of our other fine queen breeders and not feral swarms. Enjoy your posts Yoon but they are at times a challenge to respond to. Many ways to keep bees and what works for me may not work for you. Also it is hard to get two beekeepers to ever agree completely on any subject. Happy Holidays to All! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:50:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: queen rearing -interracial breeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Frank: Regarding cross-breeding [“interracial marriage”], the eminent monk has the following to add to Carnies: I [Brother Adam] must mention one point here: where there is a question of a general 'utility' cross with this race of bees, Carniolan drones should be used in every case. A reciprocal cross - Carniolan queens mated with drones of other races - produces very often a bad tempered bee and at the same time a first-cross of little or no economic value. Heterosis intensifies the hereditary swarming tendency to an even greater degree than is normally the case. The result is that such a first-cross expends all its strength in its craze for swarming. Yet in the next and subsequent generations there is a marked decline in the swarming tendency, which allows for the full development of those characteristics which have a direct bearing on honey production, while at the same time there is a greater fecundity, often to a far higher degree than is apparent in the original parent stock.” See for yourself [copy and paste]: http://www.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/books/FrAdam/breeding/partIII85en.h tml#p10 Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:17:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sugar Sensitivities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The term "sugar sensitive" or "sugar allergy" has been > (mis)used to describe nothing more than a (claimed) > addiction to sugar, and carbohydrates in general. Possibly, in some cases, however, I do know that my mother travels with a woman who is sensitive to refined sugar. She is not deathly sensitive, but has some sort of problems when she consumes much of it. I didn't ask. I'm sensitive to some foods myself, and find that although I can eat them sometimes, the effects can be very unpredictable -- from no discernable effect, to considerable discomfort. Sadly, some of them are favourites :( Like pizza sauce, some pepper, and some wines. As I say, though, the reaction is very unpredictable, but one thing is very obvious: the reaction does get worse with amount consumed over a timeframe of a week, and goes away after a week or more of abstention. As far as I know, I was not born sensitive to these foods. These reactions crept up on me over time, and I am told that they may disappear again in time. I hope so. Immune reactions have been poorly understood in the past, and are still somewhat mysterious. What we do know is that immune reactions can be extremely sensitive. That is why I brought up this point. I only mentioned it because, if I know of someone who is sensitive to refined sugar, there must be many more, and probably some with greater sensitivity, and some with less. Such people, a tiny few, may have a legitimate and unexpected interest in what is in the 'honey' they buy, even if the 'secret ingredient' is a common food item. After all, if we use peanut oil to grease our home extractor, some people would like to know. It could save them a lot of discomfort, since some with peanut senstivity can react to almost unimaginably small traces of peanut. Could this same thinking apply to refined sugar in the honey? I don't know. It seems plausible to me. I realise that by mentioning homeopathy, I could attract some abuse from those so inclined, but I try to listen to, and find some reason in everything I hear. One of the interesting ideas in homeopathy is the idea of the differing effects of various dilutions of substances. We are discussing small amounts of adulterants here and the possibility that some -- maybe a very small few -- people may have an interest, in the matter of what we do with our honey, that is not mainstream. I personally think that keeping an open mind, and not dismissing everything that we do not know much about, can lead to better understanding. As I intimated, although I have been involved in various sugar feeding practices in the past and continue to unpenitently feed my bees, if I am to maintain intellectual honesty, I cannot dismiss the ideas I do not like or which do not put money in my pocket, or, especially those that threaten to take money out of my pocket. We learn best by listening respectfully to those who disgree with us, and there are many who disagree with us about things we do, from feeding sugar, to using antibiotics, to how we regard and handle our bees. Whether these people be 'food nuts', homeopaths, kosher, animal health advocates, or other 'fringe' thinkers, we can usually take something worthwhile away. Many of the ideas that are currently mainstream in beekeepeing, from using foundation, antiibiotics, pesticides, to hive design, and more, are again subject to scrutiny in a constantly changing world, and we have had some surprises. If we keep our minds open, we may discover more, and be on the front line of new ideas, rather than the last to get the news. I really appreciate this topic and Robin's refusal to give it up. Whatever comes of it, we will be more conscious of the potential effects of our actions on others, and the arguments that can be used against us. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:43:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hugo Tremblay Subject: Detection of exogenous sugars in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Hervé and all, I had a talk today with a specialist in the Provincial Laboratory that analyses honey. Here is what he told me: Plants are divided in 3 groups: the monocotyledons, the dicotyledons and the crassulassae (pineapple is in this group) The monocotyledons plants use 4 carbon molecules in 3 steps to build C12. The dicotyledons plants use 3 carbon moleculkes in 4 steps to build C12. The crassulassae are particular: they act as monocotyledon at day and dicotyledon at night. Note that the fabrication of sugar molecules via photosynthesis is a complex process and that we do not understand it completely yet. Another important thing to know is that in nature, Carbon's isotope are for 99% 12C and about 1 % 13C. They can determine carbon's isotope weight with a precision on 7 decimals. As for honey now. The vast majority of plants that bees forage for nectar are dicotyledons. Hence they use C3 in 4 steps to produce C12. By comparison, cane sugar and corn sugar come from monocotyledon plants (using C4 in 3 steps to produce C12). Now what do they look for in their analysis ? They measure the ratio between 13C and 12C in all the sugars present in the honey sample. There is a known variation of this ratio naturally occuring in 100% pure honey, depending on the different species of flowers the honey bees collect nectar from for the US honeys. Unfortunately, the ratio for Quebec's honeys is unknown, so they use the US charts. The variation ranges from -25 0/00 and -27 0/00 (per thousand). This correspond to a degree of uncertainty of 13 %. It means that by only using this method, you can't tell if exogenous sugars have been add to honey unless you get a difference above 13% in the 13C/12C ratio. That is to say a detection limit of 13%. To be more accurate, when they have a result out of the -25 to -27 0/00, they have another card in their pocket. They use carbon present in the proteins of honey as a check value. The idea behind this is that the plants use the same carbon molecules to produce sugars and proteins. So it has been demonstrated that there is a known correlation between the 13C/12C ratios of honey sugars and proteins. Again there is a natural variation wich has been calculated at 7 %, wich means that there is a degree of uncertainty of 7%. So if they find a difference of say 5.3% with the known correlation of sugar and protein 13C/12C ratios, they cannot tell if exogenous sugars have been added because it may well be because of natural variations. But if they find a difference of 9%, they can tell with certitude that that honey contains at least 2% and at most 9% of exogenous sugars in it ( 2% over the natural limit of 7%). Hoping that may help a bit, Dr Hugo Tremblay, m.v. Vet-RAIZO Régions 1 et 11 MAPAQ-CQIASA 1600 rue Bersimis Chicoutimi, Qc G7K 1H9 (418) 698-3530 fax: 698-3533 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:24:26 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] queen replacement with cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kirk Jones wrote > We split the hive in two and leave the original queen in > the original site with a couple of combs of bees and > honey. The top story is set off and screened on a new > pallet until the end of the day then moved to a new > site. Nice to read about Kirks system. I have been working with queen cells too. My aim is to reduce the chance of swarming to 0 and change queens every year in my production hives. In Finland the season is quite short. Bees start flying around 15th of April and quit around middle of October. Willows bloom in the beginning of May. The honeyflow comes during 3 - 5 weeks and starts normally around 20th of June. Mainly in my area raspberries ( Rubus ideaus) and Fireweed. Only in about 1 year out of 10 we get any surplus honey in May or August. So the season is short and there is no time to loose for swarmy beehives. Must sound quite hard for many of you, but the average crop is about 45 kg. My worst average has been around 20 and best about 70 kg / overwintered hive. You can see the production data 2001 - 2003 from the scale hives Http://www.hunaja.net/smlkoti/tilastot/Vaakapesatietoja/vaakapesa.htm Beekeepers get this information olmost online during the summer. 1 - 3- day delay normally. During couple past years I have been trying out a system that a few people have used here for a long time. The beginning of the honeyflow or 1 - 2 weeks before is the time when bees start swarming. When first preparations are seen in some apiaries, the queens are picked up from all hives. The queens are placed with 1 or 2 brood frames in the box that is in the top of the beehive, and a excluder without entrance is placed below. The rest of the frames foundations or empty. The plastic excluders are perfect for this. The rest of the brood stays down, where it has been. I run many of the hives with 2 - queen system in the spring. In these hives I make a split with the extra queen. When the queen is up she can not swarm in case she wanted to, but very few hives go this far because most of the brood is separated by 1 - 2 boxes from the queen. If virgin queens are grown, they mate and stay in the hive and start laying in the first box ( if you had another excluder between first and second box). Last year I started to think that I should use this to my benefit and try to grow new queens to all hives. I made a trial with about 20 hives, and put a ripe queen cell to the first box at the same time when I transferred the queen to the uppermost box. I did get more than 80 % of cells to queens, which I think was not bad. I controlled the situation about 20 days after and removed all the old queens from the hives that showed a new one. Finding the queens in the beginning of honeyfow is naturally quite a bit work, but I am filling the mini mating nucs for my queen breeding at the same time. Its really easy and fast to get young bees when the queen is separated to a new box. Also I don't have to find the queen to change her in the autunum. This method also restricts queen laying for a few weeks, which is a benefit at this time of the year. The eggs laid at this time don't have time to develope to foragers before the end of the honeyflow, and they don't become winter bees either. The coming year I am planning this as the main method for my honey producing colonies ( about 300). I am not much worried about the maiting results as I dominate the area with my drones. Within my production area and 10 km from it exists only about 30 beehives of other beekeepers, and most of these have my queens in them. I sell queens with 50 % discount to my neighbours in order to keep the drones in control. They are quite happy about the deal ! I would like to hear comments about my plan. Anyone out there with experience of same kind of system ? Ari Seppälä komppa-seppala@co.inet.fi :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:05:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Sugar Sensitivities In-Reply-To: <01e301c3bf35$5a61b2f0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After a search of the net of medical and scientific sites I came to the conclusion that there are sugar allergies. Sugar allergies are generally mild and not necessarily associated with cane sugar alone. A person can be allergic to cane sugar and not beet, or beet and not cane. Often, it is not the cane sugar but additives to the sugar, but cane sugar is blamed (especially "raw" sugar which is often not "raw" but reprocessed to look "raw"). The usual symptoms are as with most allergies, sniffles, runny eyes, etc. I could not find any reputable site that put sugar or any other allergies in the same category as nut or shellfish (or bee stings!), which can be serious. In addition, there seemed to be more of a correlation of cane sugar allergies with someone already suffering from grass allergies. So to assume that feeding sugar syrup under the normal conditions that syrup is fed, and have some of the resulting "sugar syrup honey" make it into supers will lead to anaphylactic shock is a stretch. Someone consuming raw honey is as likely to react to pollen in the honey as any trace amount of cane sugar tainted honey. I found no correlation with anaphylactic shock and sugar. There have been several posts on this list that say many add sugar syrup directly (forget about feeding it to the bees), yet that seems to have no health effect on the general populace other than getting an inferior product. It is obvious that if cane sugar (or corn syrup, another allergen) caused serious health problems in honey, there would have been more about it in the literature. Either there is not that much adulterated honey, or there is but it has no health effect. Otherwise, honey would be on the list of sugars, even on the crackpot sites, but it is absent (maple and corn syrup did make some lists, not honey). Something of interest to which I would appreciate a response is - I know the sucrose is inverted by the enzymes that the bee introduces, but is the sucrose that makes it through unaffected or is is it also modified? Enzymes do interesting things with molecules. Unfortunately most of the books only speak of sucrose and not isomers. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:17:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: queen rearing- interracial breeding An interesting point as presented by Brother Adam. Is not a certain amount of hybrid vigor generated by the cross of Italians and Carniolans? I am not intentionally striving for this cross, epecially since I have gone to the effort to keep the Italian yard and the Carbiolan yard apart by approx. 5 miles, and use my old breeder queens for drone mothers. Out of curiousity I will survey some of the beekeepers that are reordering and see if they are having any problems with the bees becoming "bad tempered" or "swarmy." In my own yards I have not noticed anything out of the ordinary. Thanks Frank Wyatt Eden,NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:03:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Cross Mating Italian and Carniolan Lloyd you are correct that the only way to get true pure NWC queen is to buy one from Sue Cobey in Ohio. I was there this past May and all of her queens are II. A tested breeder is $500.00 but she has available select untested breeder queens that are also II for $200.00. She is a very fascinating lady with and inquisitive mind. Sue approaches the bees as a superorganism that is made up of subfamilies fathered by different drones. My impression while she is interested in SMR as a VD resistiance factor, she prefers to maintain selective pressure on the bees as she has in the past, but adding selection for SMR naturally. She prefers a more wholeistic approach. This was my view of her philosophy. It didn't hurt that that I learned a whole lot more about queen rearing than just philosophy at her lab. I learned more in 1 week than I had taught myself in 4 years. Frank Wyatt Eden, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:09:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nobody seems to have mentioned that insulation works both ways. About a month ago I was into a hive as the sun was going down on a cool evening. I was amazed how much heat there was inside the hive next to the sunny side compared to the shaded. Unless one is located very far beyond the Arctic Circle (Northern Alaska or Scandinavia) there could be appreciable radiant heat warming the hive from even a low sun when it shines, unless the insulation stops it. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:42:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Good advice - was Queen replacement... was Five deeps In-Reply-To: <005401c3bf02$d37b0340$fe78bc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another reason to requeen in the fall is better queens due to better mating conditions. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 896 5247 Christine Gray wrote: >From: George Imrie: " However, I want to be very specific about why a >hobbyist with a few colonies in his back yard should RE-queen annually, and >preferably in the fall rather than spring." > > > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:50:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sugar Sensitivities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I could not find any reputable site that put sugar or any other > allergies in the same category as nut or shellfish (or bee stings!), > which can be serious... > So to assume that feeding sugar syrup under the normal conditions that > syrup is fed, and have some of the resulting "sugar syrup honey" make > it into supers will lead to anaphylactic shock is a stretch... > I found no correlation with anaphylactic shock and sugar. Okay, that is an extreme case, and nobody has been arguing that sugar syrup in honey is going to kill anyone (or not), although mention was made of peanut allergy, since people have some vague awareness and can visualise it. Somehow, lately, discussions seem to wind up at an extreme -- like anaphylactic shock -- in only one or two posts, and the subtle actual point raised is no longer considered. I don't know why, but it disturbs me. Let's try to look at shades of grey and see if we can find merit in seemingly odd ideas. The manifestation of a sensitivity is usually *not* nearly so extreme. In fact, although sensitivity *can* be life-threatening, the effects are more often subtle and hard to pin down; moreso if the person is unable to determine exactly what he or she is eating. See http://www.allergyadvisor.com/hidden.htm. The point being raised is more a matter of quality of life, and of the right to be able to make informed choices based on truth in advertising, than survival. For those who suffer from food and environmental sensitivities or is close to someone who does, and that includes, I suspect, almost everyone, a visit to http://www.allergyadvisor.com can prove fascinating. I subscribed to their free newsletters for quite a while and read them for entertainment. Reading the newsletters is an eye-opener, and develops an appreciation for the diverse responses that people may have to what most of us consider to be benign substances. I don't know that anyone is likely to die from accidentally eating minute amounts of refined sugar. In fact I very much doubt it. The point is that we are in a new millenium and the rules have changed. We currently can find things in food that nobody ever thought we would, and establishing significances we formerly rejected as speculative or 'fringe'. Tomorrow, the sensitivity of that detection and corelation ability will increase a thousandfold. When the day comes that special and expensive preparations are not necessary before doing a mass spec, and the lab can just get a printout of everything in a sample while on coffee break, the world will change. I'm told that day is not in sight, but I you told me that I could have 256 megs of high quailty memory as a fob on my keychain, only a few years ago, I'd have told you that you were dreaming in Technicolor. Now I do. Maybe you do too. Standards are tightening up everywhere, and there are surprises around every corner. Everything we thought we knew bears constant review in light of startling new discoveries. The point is that it is most invaluable for us to to examine in detail all our practices and be aware of all possible criticisms. A paradigm does not shift overnight; we receive ample warning, but each time it happens, some are left behind. For a hobbyist, maybe finding out one morning that the world has changed may not have a huge effect, but those who ship semi-loads of honey, and expect it to pay the mortgage, had better keep a keen eye on the way the public is thinking. Today's wacky idea is tomorrow's law. We are on the edge of a major shift. In fact it is already well underway. http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:57:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: December Queens Could anyone with any experience either good or bad with the Hawaiian Queen Company email me? Due to the huge amount of time I have spent on the archives of the BEE-L site, my sideline business is at the stage where I have the need to increase my production quickly and dramatically. Thanks and regards Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:48:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Cross Mating Italian and Carniolan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank said: My impression while she is interested in SMR as a VD resistiance factor, she prefers to maintain selective pressure on the bees as she has in the past, but adding selection for SMR naturally. I believe possibly frank misunderstood Sue unless SUE IS TALKING ABOUT USING DOCUMENTED SMR ( FOUND BY TESTING BROOD )DRONES OR DOCUMENTED SMR QUEEN DAUGHTERS ( from hives which have been tested for the smr trait by the methods outlined by Harris & Harbo)FOR II.(INSTRUMENTAL INSEMINATION). Although the SMR (supressed mite reproduction) trait can be found in a hive in many apiaries the only way to *find such a hive* is to test by checking brood. Then raise queens from those hives. The procedure for finding a hive with SMR used by Dr. Harbo & Dr. Harris is outlined at the Baton Rouge Bee Lab web site. You can add the SMR trait to your bees by open mating your strain (drones) with SMR breeder queen daughters (grafted by us) which is what we did *or* use SMR drones to open mate with your lines queens which was an option we did not use but others have used. If Sue is talking about introducing SMR into her Ohio queen breeders line as we did then I agree but to introduce the SMR trait you first have to find the bees with the trait (Harbo & Harris). The method we used to introduce the SMR trait into our bees is in the archives. We used two Glenn Apiaries II breeder queens from the red & yellow lines three years ago I believe. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:34:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Good advice - was Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Another reason to requeen in the fall is better queens due to better > mating conditions. And cheaper, too. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:47:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Adding the SMR trait to your bees by open mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You can add the SMR trait to your bees by open mating your strain > (drones) with SMR breeder queen daughters... Something to keep in mind is that the SMR bees developed by Baton Rouge *were not* selected for *anything* -- AFAIK -- except SMR, and, although they can be used to breed SMR into other lines of bees, that was not the intent. They are an experimental demonstration line that was released soley due to industry demand. The intent, in developing the SMR line, was simply to prove that the SMR trait -- one of several possible traits that can lead to varroa resistance -- could be selected. Since SMR has been found in any line of bees that has been examined, the thought was that breeders would adopt the SMR selection procedure, and not necessarily that they would use the Baton Rouge SMR stock itself. My understanding is that Baton Rouge is currently trying or planning to try to select for several of the other properties that could, like SMR, be similarly effective in suppressing varroa in order to provide a multi-pronged approach. Hopefully that is the approach that those with an already well-selected strain will follow *unless* they see other valuable traits in the SMR line. Otherwise, introducing enough SMR to make a difference would dilute and alter their stock. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:49:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cross mating Italian and Carniolan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, Now I really know that I am getting OLD, when I see your SUPERB comments regarding Sue Cobey's success with New World Carniolans. Steve Taber persuaded me to switch from Italians to Carniolans 55 years ago, 1948, to take advantage of their explosive early spring buildup to reap a harvest from Maryland's major nectar flow from April 15 to May 31; and Sue Cobey was not yet born then. Hence I used the Hastings line of Carniolans from Don Strachan (who just died last month and was younger than me). When Sue Cobey first produced he NWC line, I was ENTHRALLED; and this young girl and I became good friends (even though I am 40 years her senior). In personal conceit, I thought I was Sue's #1 supporter, but after reading your praise of NWC and your wonderful analysis of what true "purity " is, I surrender and name you as Sue's #1 supporter. Forgetting NWC bees, isn't Sue, herself, just a WONDERFUL person! Lloyd, have a fine holiday. I will be at the ABF meeting in Jacksonville in January; and many would be delighted if you came. George Imirie, retired scientist Beginning my 72nd consecutive year of beekeeping near Washington, DC Author of George's PINK PAGES :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:59:38 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Winter Wrap Comments: cc: CSlade777@AOL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Chris & All, Chris wrote; >Nobody seems to have mentioned that insulation works both ways. > In the archives in Item #046915, URL http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0311E&L=bee-l&P=R345 , I mention it. Below I reiterate the particulars Ian wrote; >>I also >>think sun heat absortion is very important. I feel that it is nessicary to >>allow the bees to lossen cluster to reorginize their stores. >> I replied > >If a hive is wrapped you will not get this effect, wrapping a hive >insulates >from two directions normally. > Chris wrote; >Unless one is located very far beyond the Arctic Circle >(Northern Alaska or Scandinavia) there could be appreciable radiant heat >warming the >hive from even a low sun when it shines, unless the insulation stops it. > Reply; I think insulation will stop most of this radiant heat. Alaska or scandinavia should be no different than the rest of the planet when it comes to how the sun affects it. We get radiant heat even where I live. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get holiday tips for festive fun. http://special.msn.com/network/happyholidays.armx :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:56:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Good advice - was Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 12/10/03 8:09:29 PM, allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM writes: << And cheaper, too. >> Allen, you UPSET me! Yes, they are CHEAPER, but SO WHAT? Let's suppose they are $2.00/queen cheaper in the fall compared to spring. I requeen my 100+ colonies in the fall with well mated queens so I get SUPER laying queens in the following spring; whereas if I requeened in the spring and some of those queens were so poorly mated that I had supersedure, lost my honey crop and introduced UNKNOWN DRONE RACIAL BLOOD. CHEAPER SHOULD NOT EVEN BE A CONSIDERATION, EVEN IF YOU ARE REQUEENING 10,000 COLONIES, Fall queens are just BETTER queens than spring queens, and price is unimportant. Having started beekeeping in1932, the heart of the GREAT DEPRESSION, WOW, do I know about price difference! A 3 pound package of Italian bees from York Bee was $3.15, complete A.I. Root hives were $11.00, I sold comb honey square sections for 25˘ and thought I was Rockefeller, working men (if they had a job) made $5.00 a week for a 60 hour week. CHEAPER IS NOT IMPORTANT! ONLY THE QUALITY OF THE QUEEN IS IMPORTANT! I apologize for my madness, but I am so damn sick of Americans who treat money as if it were GOD, There is SO MUCH more in life than "money". Allen, many of the Bee-L participants look upon you as a "sage", a "hero", a "21st century C. C. Miller", and I agree that you are a highly knowledgeable bee man. But rather than encouraging Fall requeening because the queens are CHEAPER, tell them the MORE important fact that they are BETTER MATED, and hence, unlikely to run out of stored semen and then be superseded. Allen - I wish you a fine HOLIDAY SEASON, and I will see you at ABF in January. George Imirie, an OLD retired scientist Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Beginning my 72nd consecutive year of beekeeping near Washington, DC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:39:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Happy mite family (photo) A new Varroa destructor photo is added: http://photo.bees.net/gallery/varroa/DSCN4773?full=1 http://photo.bees.net now has over 700 bee related photos. Enjoy and happy holidays. Zach :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:15:02 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: December Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Tim Vaughan" " Due to the huge amount of time I have spent on the archives of the BEE-L > site, my sideline business is at the stage where I have the need to > increase my production quickly and dramatically." Due to ...or ...thanks to ...? How would u, Tim, value the benefits u get from Bee-L, ...compared with the amount of time it does take to search such extensive but unindexed archives? Perhaps the archives ARE indexed - if so, could someone describe the system. I personally rarely find the time it takes to get info off the net to be worth while, except for airline tickets, because the info is so variable, unchecked, often without cross references, not validated by (formal) peer review ... so anything has to be checked as far as possible, which is often difficult. Even if it is not practical to make the archives easier to search, I will still love them. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:52:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Cross Mating Italian and Carniolan Sue was talking about the documented SMR line as outlined by Harris & Harbo. She had introduced the SMR trait using II breeders into a test apairy and experimented with the resultant bees & queens. While the SMR II breeders provided resistant daughters and lived up to their stated specifications. Sue explained to us that they did not live up to "her standards in other areas", therefore: she had added to her evaluation process- suppression of mite resistance as she evaluated her queens yearly. I have been using the SMR Carniolan breeder queens as supplied by Glenn Aparies for 4 years and last year procured a SMR Minnesota Hygenic. I get a new breeder each year and use the old breeder as a drone mother. I have been very pleased with the results so far. Last year I tested my productions hives and only treated 40% for varroa. This year was different and I was unable to test each hive (circumstance beyond control) and did a blanket treatment. Frank Wyatt Eden, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:14:14 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: queen rearing -interracial breeding In-Reply-To: <200312101650.hBAEocO9000528@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed >A reciprocal cross - Carniolan queens mated with >drones of other races - produces very often a bad tempered bee and at the >same time a first-cross of little or no economic value. Heterosis >intensifies the hereditary swarming tendency to an even greater degree >than is normally the case. The result is that such a first-cross expends >all its strength in its craze for swarming. I would suggest perhaps that this is a result of his using a particular origin of carnica, or some other reason. I think it a really good cross, and do it deliberately, with both old world carniolans and NWC. The results with NWC outcrossing to our local black drones are just about the best bees I can find. No serious temper problems No excessive swarming Excellent productivity However, it is important when discussing OWC and NWC to be specific about what we are talking about, because they are very different beasts. Neither however has at all manifested itself with the characterisics Bro. Adam assigns to them. I am not alone in this. I provided four NWC queens (just ordinary open mated Kona ones) to a good Scottish breeder, and he bred a significant number of young queens from them, open mated them to the local black mongrels, and was amazed at how good a bee they were. He too had read this apparently authoritative version of the cross, and found it to be false. His production using the cross was superb (I saw his colonies on the heather) and he wants more to keep the carnica gene levels up. He did select only the black virgins, on the assumption that the yellow ones were the result of crossed matings with Italians, and the black ones from matings with NWC drones. Yellow virgins were culled. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:34:59 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queen rearing -interracial breeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I'm Glad Murray made his last post, I was about to ask about such crossings. Many criticise crossings of AMM inflenced strains with various others and say that the outcome is a nasty, stingy bee... They blame the AMM for this and particulary AMM drones x other strain virgins. My own experience has been against a background of mongrel drones that contain much Italian influence (several different Italian strains). Many matings result in bad tempered bees that are intensive brood raisers. The high populations of bees then just sit about and starve unless we get direct sunshine, in which case (perhaps one year in five) they will fetch a crop in. I have always maintained that it is the Italian genes that bring the aggressivness to the cross matings, but it would not surprise me if Murray said that he had regular infusions of Italian blood in his stocks, and I was wondering if there were any conlusions he could draw from his yards that had different racial make up. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:36:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: ABF Hotel Reservation Deadline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" A reminder that the deadline for hotel reservations for the January ABF conference in Jacksonville is tomorrow. Details can be found if you dig a little at ABFNET.ORG I haven't booked yet, but I'm strongly leaning towards attending, perhaps I'll mee some BEE-L members there! Cheers, Aaron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:37:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: December Queens "How would u, Tim, value the benefits u get from Bee-L, ...compared with the amount of time it does take to search such extensive but unindexed archives?" I really don't have much of a problem with the way the archives are organized. When I got back to California from 9 years with scuts in Africa, I basically had to start over learning bees, what with Varroa and all so I just read through pretty much everything and asked questions here when I needed help. Around here, the few beekeepers that produce extra honey still keep Apistan strips in their hives all year round and throw handfulls of tetramycin in the brood champer every now and then for AFB. This of course provides quite the market opportunity, what with the almost total lack of competition for local, raw honey. When learning on the internet, one eventually developes a sense of descernment, and I find learning on the net very valuable, whether working on my own website using Dave Cushman's advice, learning about my bees, my plants, my macrophotography or whatever. This site including the archives has put me so head and shoulders above most other beekeepers in the area that I can start building my business without the need for capital outside the profits from my hives. So one shouldn't look to me for much critizism concerning the organisation of the archives. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:28:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: queen rearing -interracial breeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >A reciprocal cross - Carniolan queens mated with >drones of other races - produces very often a bad tempered bee and at the same time a first-cross of little or no economic value. The Italian bee still is the most used bee in the U.S. by both the commercial and hobby beekeeper. The use of carniolans is on the rise and I believe Richard Adee is working closely with Sue C. and has been using carniolans over the last decade (possibly longer). Horace Bell uses Italians and both beekeepers run similar numbers of colonies so I would guess the Italians are still the most used race of bee in the U.S.. Crosses of Italian and Carniolan are common in the U.S. I have used a carniolan/ Italian mix from a beekeeper in Texas (which does not advertise or sell to the general public) which we call "stripers" because of their unusual markings. The markings are different, easily recognizable and consistent through a batch of queens and from consistent from year to year. Two of my friends have used a hundred queens a week from the beekeeper with excellent results. One friend swears by the "stripers" as the best bee he ever used! I had no problems with the "striper" queens I used but I only installed about 50 queens over the last decade and paid little attention to the cross but would have noticed low honey production, heavy swarming tendecies and aggressive behavior. . I would be my friends house and he would have several battery boxes of queens waiting for installation ( from different queen breeders) and I needed only 10 or so queens and did not have time to wait on a shipment. Most times I replaced the queens with queens from my next shipment. All I was ever able to find out about those "striper" queens were they were a direct cross of Italian and carniolan. The color was a very dark brown with unusual jet black markings. The stripes were wider if i remember correctly and there was not a black tip at the bottom like many Buckfast queens in the U.S. have got. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:35:42 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: The European Union Gets A Clue On Bee Imports The EU really seems to "get it". The new rules include: a) 100% inspection at port of entry for SHB and Tropilaelaps (and, one assumes, other reportable diseases and pests). b) Only 20 attendants per queen cage allowed, no more. c) The "20 bee limit" apparently bans packages, bad news for a few package producers. I should point out in passing that the "David Byrne" mentioned below is NOT David Byrne of the group "Talking Heads", http://www.talking-heads.net/graphics/david.jpg but the David Byrne that is the much less well-known EU Health Commissioner. http://www.ehfg.org/presscenter/2000/pictures/byrne.jpg jim ======== If You Cut Here, You Will Likely Break Your Monitor =========== Brussels, 11 December 2003 Protection of Bees: Commission steps up measures against exotic parasites http://europa.eu.int/rapid/start/cgi/guesten.ksh?p_action.gettxt=gt&doc=IP/03/17 11|0|RAPID&lg=EN; The European Commission today adopted a Decision stepping up measures to protect the EU bee population from two exotic parasites. The small hive beetle Aethina tumida and the parasitic mite Tropilaelaps have never been reported in the EU but, if introduced from third countries, they could severely endanger bee health, the apiculture industry and honey production. To prevent the parasites from being introduced into the EU the measures now adopted will limit imports of both live honey bees and bumble bees and require imported bees to be examined for signs of the parasites when they arrive in the EU. "These two parasites have had a devastating effect on the health of honey bees, the bee industry and the production of honey in affected third countries," said David Byrne, EU Commissioner for Health and Consumer Protection. "The EU needs simple import rules to make sure these bee parasites do not hitch a ride to Europe." What damage do the parasites cause? The small hive beetle can multiply rapidly in infested colonies where it eats brood stock, destroys combs and, if unchecked, ultimately destroys the colony. The Tropilaelaps mite has also been shown to cause high mortality in affected bee colonies. The mites have also been linked to bees suffering leg and wing deformities. These pests can disrupt pollination so they also pose a risk to the sustainability of the apiculture industry as well as agriculture and the environment in the EU. What measures are already in place? In July 2003, the Commission added these two parasites to the list of notifiable diseases in the EU(1). This means all beekeepers who suspect their colonies are infested have to inform the appropriate authorities in their Member States. Bees are imported into the EU to extend breeding stocks and to improve the productivity of the apiculture industry but at the moment bees can enter the EU in large consignments that are very difficult to examine rigorously for the presence of parasites. In view of the risks posed by these pests, additional measures were deemed necessary. This is why the Commission proposed to limit the imports of both live honey bees and bumble bees from third countries to prevent the parasites spreading to the EU and introduce stringent checks for the presence of these parasites for bee imports. The Commission's proposal was agreed with the Member States through the Standing Committee on the Food Chain and Animal Health on 4-5 November 2003. What changes can be expected? Under the new Decision, imports of bees will be limited to consignments containing a single queen bee with a maximum of 20 accompanying attendants. Imports will only be authorised from third countries that have demonstrated the necessary veterinary competence(2) to certify that animals fulfil all criteria for import into the EU and where the small hive beetle and the Tropilaelaps mite are notifiable diseases. When the consignment arrives in the EU, the cages, attendants, and any other material accompanying queens from the third country of origin must also be sent to a laboratory where they will all be examined for the presence of the small hive beetle, their eggs or larvae and signs of the Tropilaelaps mite. Small colonies of bumble bees up to a maximum of 200 adults can still be authorised for import into the EU if they have been bred and reared solely under environmentally controlled conditions. Next steps The Decision will enter into force ten days after its publication in the Official Journal. It must then be applied by all Member States. In a separate proposal to amend Council Regulation 1774/ 2002, certain measures to protect the EU from the small hive beetle and the Tropilaelaps mite, together with further additional health requirements will also be laid down in a new health certificate to accompany products for use in apiculture. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:38:18 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Sugar Sensitivities > nobody has been arguing that sugar syrup > in honey is going to kill anyone... > Let's try to look at shades of grey and > see if we can find merit in seemingly odd ideas. OK, here's what I don't "get" about "sugar sensitivity": 1) There is a very simple and well-known process for the metabolization of sugar, honey, fructose, and other carbohydrates. 2) To simplify, your body can't really tell the difference between a Life-Saver candy and a spoonful of honey. 3) To go further, I am glossing over only a few details if I say that your body can't tell the difference between sugar, honey, HFCS, and a potato. Given that at least one reader of this list knows someone who is said to be sensitive to refined sugar, we might be able to narrow things down a bit by asking what reaction (if any) is experienced when consuming other carbohydrates and other types of "sugars", and what reaction results from eating various packaged foods containing HFCS. Bottom line, I'm going to feed my bees rather than let them starve, and I'm not going to overfeed and perhaps sully my crop with sugar simply because I don't want to increase my costs by feeding too much. (I think that "sully" is a more appropriate term than "contaminate".) > What it is about refined sugar that causes such reactions > is not clear. Perhaps some stage of the refining process > introduces something that is not always totally removed at > the end. Speaking of carbs, has the "Atkins Diet" craze sweeping the USA caused anyone's honey sales to slump? My wife is a member of the (USA) Baker's Guild, and their newsletter says that nationwide bakery revenues have taken a serious hit due to the low respect suddenly given to carbohydrates as a part of a balanced diet. jim (Farmed and Dangerous) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:26:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: queen rearing -interracial breeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Regarding cross-breeding ["interracial marriage"], the eminent monk > has the following to add to Carnies: > "I [Brother Adam] must mention one point here..." While Brother Adam was a most fascinating and devoted beekeeper, and a good read, I wonder, in the end, what we can learn from him. I also wonder about he sample sizes and analyses he used in reaching his conclusions. The scientists I talk to just shake their heads. We know, or should know, from reading this list if not elsewhere, that all beekeeping is local, and the guy just over the hill will see something different from us, often as not, when working with bees. Of course there are many commonalities, too, but we cannot safely assume much. We know, for example, that queens, from any breeder, when shipped to different places, get different reviews from knowledgeable beekeepers in each region, and we also know that if you pick up what seems to be a vicious hive or apiary and move it to a new location in a distant -- or sometimes even nearby -- area, it may prove to be very tractable. The style in centuries past was to attempt to make general observations and turn them into universal laws. With the flood of revelation that has occured in the past half-century, most of us are much less boldly convinced of the absoluteness of anything, less likely to mistake simultaneity for causality, and more likely to suspect that problems are more complex than they appear on the surface. We are more suspicious of religions and cults and the thinking and catechisms that are central to such organisations. While Brother Adam makes very interesting reading, I think that any experienced and independant-thinking beekeeper will soon question his conclusions on most every topic. Moreover, if we examine the breeding of the Buckfast bee, both during his lifetime and to the present, in light of what we know now, we will find again that we have questions. The old beekeeping books are fun to read, but to my mind, many should be categorised under, 'Religion' or 'Fiction'. As for the observation in point, I doubt the bees we call 'carnies' now and here are anything like the samples he experienced, and on which BA based his conclusions. Personally, I have all kinds of crosses between the many strains of 'italians' we have had and the many strains of 'carnies' we have had, and cannot say that we ever could find any basis for his observations. That does not mean someone just over the hill from me will not agree with him completely. FWIW, I have very successful and large-scale friends who are Buckfast believers, but, FWIW, they don't seem at all concerned about such crosses. Back sliders? Go figure. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:09:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Winter Wrap I think radiat heat is very important for wintering beecolonies in my cold winter climate, as I stated before. It has been mentioned "insulation will stop most of this radiant heat", "wrapping a hive insulates from two directions normally." This holds true if you insulate EMPTY beehives for the winter. You are forgetting a very important fact. The bee generate a termendous amount of heat inside the hive. Just loosely off the top of my head, a honeybee colony will generate up to 25-35Joules of heat while in cluster. I wrap my hives to conserve some of that heat that is lost through the hive top and sidewalls, lets say 5-10J heat loss depending on temp. That heat loss will be significantly reduced when you factor in the suns radiant heat. If it happens to be a -25degreeC sunny day, the sun will have warmed the pack due to the black felt paper, your hives heat loss will be significantly lower than if they were not wraped or wrapped in a reflective pack. The disadvantage is it also keeps them warmer during winter warm spells and will increase food consumption. Rairely do we have sutch long warm spells to induce mid winter brood rearing. I think in such conditions, the premature brood rearing would happen in either case, wrap or no wrap. I'm not sure what your hives consume through the winter. I'm sure to have my colonies at least 170-180lbs going into winter. Not very often do I have hungery hives in the spring. I have yet to hear of a beekeeper who doesn't wrap their hives in cold winter conditions. In our climate, either you wrap your hives, move them inside, or to warmer areas of the countrey. I'm limited to wrapping becasue of the capital involved in the other two, and I cant afford to loose my hives due to an extreemly harsh winter, like last year. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:37:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Good advice - was Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen, you UPSET me! Yes, they are CHEAPER, but SO WHAT? ... >CHEAPER SHOULD NOT EVEN BE A CONSIDERATION, EVEN IF > YOU ARE REQUEENING 10,000 COLONIES, You are absolutely right, George. I was just kidding my friend in La. I guess I should have used a smiley. Hope to see you in Jacksonville. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary I'm still ranting about the closed US/Canada border. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:37:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Sugar Sensitivities In-Reply-To: <016b01c3bf78$5c15f730$5fb85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: >>I could not find any reputable site that put sugar or any other >>allergies in the same category as nut or shellfish (or bee stings!), >>which can be serious... >>So to assume that feeding sugar syrup under the normal conditions that >>syrup is fed, and have some of the resulting "sugar syrup honey" make >>it into supers will lead to anaphylactic shock is a stretch... >>I found no correlation with anaphylactic shock and sugar. > > > Okay, that is an extreme case, and nobody has been arguing that sugar syrup > in honey is going to kill anyone (or not), although mention was made of > peanut allergy, since people have some vague awareness and can visualise it. > Somehow, lately, discussions seem to wind up at an extreme -- like > anaphylactic shock -- in only one or two posts, and the subtle actual point > raised is no longer considered. I don't know why, but it disturbs me. > Let's try to look at shades of grey and see if we can find merit in > seemingly odd ideas. The problem is the mention of peanuts as an example. It was not a valid example since, as noted, only shellfish and nuts are in the category of dangerous food allergies. But using it as an example, it moved the discussion from sensitive to dangerous. Truth is, I did not intend to respond to the post, but after I did my research, decided that the comment on peanut allergies needed a response. If we are to comment on this list in "shades of grey" with every "odd" post then we might as well close up shop, since there are right ways and to shade them would be a disservice to those on the list. For example, the response to my post on "sugar syrup honey" was strong and did not allow any shade of grey, and I appreciated it since I was wrong. We are here to learn, not agree. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:04:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Time to think of the US meetings coming up in January MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It's time to think of the US meetings coming up in January... > ..AHPA: 35th Annual Convention Omni Hotel, San Antonio, Texas Jan 7-11, 2004 The tentative schedule is now at http://www.americanhoneyproducers.org/Conventions/2004%20Convention%20Schedule.pdf (Sorry about the line wrap). Nothing detailed at the ABF site, yet, though. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 09:58:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Good advice - was Queen replacement... was Five deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/03 9:25:42 AM, allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM writes: << > Allen, you UPSET me! Yes, they are CHEAPER, but SO WHAT? ... >CHEAPER SHOULD NOT EVEN BE A CONSIDERATION, EVEN IF > YOU ARE REQUEENING 10,000 COLONIES, You are absolutely right, George. >> Just read your comments regarding Brother Adam, Carnies, and Buckfast. I totally AGREE with you. Isn't it a shame that so many people hear the conjecture of a quasi famous person, and after this conjecture has passed through the lips of many people, all of a sudden that conjecture has become an INDISPUTABLE FACT. I find this very SAD! Have a nice holiday, and I'll see you at ABF in Jacksonville George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:25:40 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Long-Term Consequences of Annual Requeening In-Reply-To: <200312100224.hBA2OJB7012348@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8;format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In article <200312100224.hBA2OJB7012348@listserv.albany.edu>, yoonytoons writes >Murray’s >point “the might is always right” typifies such diatribe. When a “Big >Boy” throws in his number (35,000) on the table of bee discussion, the >hobbyists wet their pants. Not me. Remember under the Nazis, nearly 100% >Germans believed in one truth and it ain’t right. What I said was that where the guys with the really big orders purchase from is highly significant. I don't see anything much wrong with that. These guys are serious players, with a big budget and big responsibilities. They are not going to waste their hard won cash on the products of a lesser breeder. In some cases they have experience over many years of just who provides good reliable queens, and who does not. I am interested in this as it is just about the best reference you can get when seeking a breeder to supply you. As for the 35,000? Just a number that was quoted to me, and I was keen to find out just where such numbers could be obtained. No-one with that kind of demand actually threw their number on the table as you state. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:58:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Question of English ! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all ! I'm mostly a reader of BEE-L mails because my English is very bad (I'm French speaking). But now I've a question concerning some beekeeping expressions I don't find in my "Dictionary of beekeeping terms" from the IBRA. In queen breeding, what is the correct term for a queen before and after mating? In French we have "reine vierge" before and "reine féconde" after Is the best correct English "unmated queen" or "not mated queen" (or "not yet"?) before ... and probably "mated queen" after Thanking you for any answer! Regards Jean-Marie Van Dyck :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:37:14 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Question of English ! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Virgin and Mated Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean-Marie Van Dyck" > In queen breeding, what is the correct term for a queen before and after > mating? > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:27:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Sugar Sensitivities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill wrote: >We are here to learn, not agree. Since the time I’ve been reading posts on Bee-L I’ve *learned* I don’t entirely *agree* with that! Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:44:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Question of English ! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/12/03 5:01:14 PM GMT Standard Time,=20 jean-marie.vandyck@FUNDP.AC.BE writes: > In queen breeding, what is the correct term for a queen before and after > mating? >=20 > In French we have "reine vierge" before and "reine f=E9conde" after >=20 Just like in French. Virgin queen, then Mated queen. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:49:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Question of English ! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Prior to mating, a queen is a "VIRGIN QUEEN" After mating, a queen is referred to as a "MATED QUEEN" or a "LAYING QUEEN" Hope I have helped. George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:44:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Long-Term Consequences of Annual Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/03 11:03:39 AM, murray@DENROSA.DEMON.CO.UK writes: << These guys are serious players, with a big budget and big responsibilities. They are not going to waste their hard won cash on the products of a lesser breeder. In some cases they have experience over many years of just who provides good reliable queens, and who does not. I am interested in this as it is just about the best reference you can get when seeking a breeder to supply you. As for the 35,000? Just a number that was quoted to me, and I was keen to find out just where such numbers could be obtained. No-one with that kind of demand a >> Murray, 35,000 is a very large number of queens; but I don't believe it is the largest. Richard Adee is the largest commercial beekeeper in the U. S., and he has 60,000 colonies that he requeens every year. The bees travel over many western and midwestern states in migratory beekeeping, but he requeens them in the fall at his winter yards in Mississippi, I have been told. His queen costs, and his sugar cost for sugar feeding, must be like our national debt. Yes, Robin (if you are following), essentially ALL of the U.S. commercial honey producers feed sugar to winter their colonies because the monetary value of honey is 3-4 times the cost of sugar. Have a fine Holiday, Murray. George Imirie, retired scientist Certified Master Beekeeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:55:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Sugar sensitivities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, I didn't mean to go "off list" if I did. I never see my posts in my own mailbox anyway, even if people respond. (I was responding to a point you made re: the body not knowing the difference between honey and any other carbs). Apparently it does react differently to honey and the NHB is sponsering research. It seems to center around the speed of absorbtion, and honey can to an extent sneak by the insulin machine. There's a lot at NHB. http://www.honey.com/pressrm/research/enrgy-expbio.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:28:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: new bioterrorism registration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, If a member of BEE-L understands the new law please email me as I have spent most of the day on the phone with beekeepers. and the National Honey Board. question one. The Honey Board says registration is free both in their mail out literature "Keeping Food Safe" "How the new bioterrorism regulations may impact your honey business" aand on the phone but at the registration website the fee is $195 U.S. Whats the deal? If I am reading the farm classification correctly some beekeepers may be exempt BUT the rules are not very clear (at least not to myself and others). Many beekeepers say all beekeepers which fill a jar of honey which is not consumed on the farm needs to register. Are they correct or incorrect? Others say if you do not get the assigned registration number your honey will be pulled from store shelves until you get the bioterrorism number. Correct or incorrect? Others say if you only produce drums of honey and sell to a single packer you do not need to register. Correct or incorrect. Because the above only involves a small part of the list please email me direct unless you feel the information might benefit the list. Deadline for registration is midnight today (12-12-2003). Thanks in advance! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:28:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Comments Regarding The Nucleus, Fall/ Winter 2003 FYI, I just wanted to touch upon what Dick had brought up regarding what is happening with the the National Honey Board and bring things up to date as his post, http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0312B&L=bee- l&P=R3554&D=1&O=D, refered to an April 19, 2000 Press Release, http://www.honey.com/pressrm/research/enrgy-expbio.html. The National Honey Board publishes a bulletin, The Nucleus; I just last week received my copy of Volume 2, Issue 4 Fall/Winter 2003 edition. Under a topic called "Future Research Needs" the following was printed which brings up to date Dick Marron's Post: "In the next few months, Board staff will be evaluating proposals for research opportunities, including investigating honey's glycemic index..." "In order to compare honey to other carbohydrates, the Board has issued a request for proposal (RFP) for research that will determine the glycemic index of several varieties of honey. The chosen researcher will begin with Clover honey and two other varieties, one with high fructoseand low glucose (such as Tupelo or Sage) and one with low fructose and high glucose (such as Cotton, Sunflower, or Rapeseed. Another topic regards Kirin Honey Beer! It seems that The Japaneese beer maker, Kirin is gonna produce "Honey Brown Beer" and its major source is Orange Blossom Honey. I also seems that there will not be enough Orange Blossom Honey produced in the USA to supply all of Kirin's needs so additional Orange Blossom Honey will be purchased from Spanish and Mexican sources. This is very good news for California and Florida pollinators; and because of the Japanese attitude towards quality control there will IMHO be no "blending" of American Orange Blossom Honey. Other articles featured Research on the Antibacterial Activity of Honey, how to get on The Honey Locator, and a report on the Board's visit to the Carl Hayden Bee Research Center in Tucson. Happy Holidays! Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:58:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Long-Term Consequences of Annual Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George said: Richard Adee is the largest commercial beekeeper in the U. S., and he has 60,000 colonies that he requeens every year. Actually Richard shares the throne with another little known beekeeper. Even the late great Roger Morse was afraid to label Richard the largest so in his article about U.S. beekeeping for the spring 1999 issue of "Invention & Technology" pg. 15 he wrote the following: "Many full-time family operations manage between 500 and 1,000 colonies, though the two largest ones have maintained as many as 60,000 colonies( more than a billion bees) in a single year." On the same page he did also write the following which I found interesting. I will greatly miss the writing of beekeepers like Roger Morse and Richard Taylor! "In 1880, William L. Coggshall of Ithaca , New York , owned 4,000 hives of bees , more than anyone else in the world. William typically left home on Monday mornings with a wagon and a team of horses. His hired men followed behind. They took a circuitous route, visiting apiaries, which were usually two miles apart and contained 30-50 hives apiece. They slept in barns and took prearranged meals with farmers along the road, returning home on Saturday night. " "BY THE TURN OF THE CENTURY THEY WOULD BE TRAVELING ON BICYCLES!" Roger also wrote. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:13:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Question of English ! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George said: Prior to mating, a queen is a "VIRGIN QUEEN" After mating, a queen is referred to as a "MATED QUEEN" or a "LAYING QUEEN" On the lighter side: And so then prior to mating a drone would be called "VIRGIN DRONE" or "DRONE" What then would we refer to the disemboweled drone which may live up to 12 hours on the ground? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:21:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Question of English ! In-Reply-To: <8.41e3226b.2d0b67b8@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Prior to mating, a queen is a "VIRGIN QUEEN" > >After mating, a queen is referred to as a "MATED QUEEN" or a "LAYING QUEEN" > >Hope I have helped. You did it ! :) Thank you all a lot George, Murray and Ruary Jean-Marie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:27:37 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Sugar sensitivities I said (off list) to Dick: >> ...a quick search reveals that even the Atkins enthusiasts >> don't argue about how the insulin response of the body works: >> >> http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-423761.html >> >> "The insulin responses elicited by glucose, >> sucrose or fructose are the same as those >> from a starchy food with the same glycemic index." Dick replied (on list): > Apparently it does react differently to honey and the NHB is > sponsering research. It seems to center around the speed of > absorbtion, and honey can to an extent sneak by the insulin > machine. What the NHB's document said is: "The lower 'glycemic index' profile of honey is an important consideration for sports enthusiasts because when ingested just prior to exercise, higher glycemic index carbohydrates (like dextrose, maltodextrin or sucrose) may promote fatigue more quickly due to the corresponding release of insulin and faster muscle glycogen (stored carbohydrate source) utilization." Which is perfectly true. Honey has a lower glycemic index than many other sweeteners. So, while the insulin response is lower (as clearly stated by the Atkins folks) it would be the same for any mix of carbohydrates with the same glycemic index. jim (Driving a 13 mpg SUV rather than an average car for one year would waste more energy than if you: Left the refrigerator door open for 6 years Left the bathroom light burning for 30 years or Left a color television turned on for 28 years ) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:21:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Winter Wrap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anchorage’s north latitude is a bit over 61 degrees. In December sunrise is 10:00 a.m. or a bit after, and sunset is about 3:45 p.m. providing around 5 ˝ sunlight. The winter sun does not rise in the east. Instead, it rises in the south-southeast. It then travels a bit northerly in it’s arc where it is still very, very much in the southern part of the sky at high noon. >From there it moves more to the south again, setting in the south- southwest. Probably most of the radiant heat furnished to a hive would be toward noon when the sun is shining only on the front of a south-facing hive. Depending on location, trees and buildings often block even noon-day sun radiation from reaching the hives’ face. In winter here in the south-central region of Alaska our sky is largely overcast. The insulating cloud layer sometimes helps to give us a bit milder range of temperatures than other northern areas. On those days when the sun is shining brightly, and the sky has cleared losing it’s cloud blanket, outside air temperatures frequently drop a great deal. I doubt the fall in outside air temperature would likely be compensated for by the brief period that sunshine is striking the front of a beekeeper’s hive. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:45:05 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Winter Wrap In-Reply-To: <200312130521.hBD4OqFj022168@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Dick, There is more than a "doubt" in what you say. You and I have both experienced this over and over. In my case I have seen this pattern for around 25 years of keeping bees here, and several years before that. >In winter here in the south-central region of Alaska our sky is largely >overcast. The insulating cloud layer sometimes helps to give us a bit >milder range of temperatures than other northern areas. On those days when >the sun is shining brightly, and the sky has cleared losing it’s cloud >blanket, outside air temperatures frequently drop a great deal. I doubt >the fall in outside air temperature would likely be compensated for by the >brief period that sunshine is striking the front of a beekeeper’s hive. > Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 05:32:05 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Re: bioterrorism SCAM alert An earlier post to this list mentioned a fee for registration under the new FDA Bioterrorism regulations, and was justifiably confused by the question of whether registration is required for beekeepers. 1: FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT: Registration is FREE. The site that suggests a fee of $195 (higher for non-U.S. firms) is a SCAM. Isn't free enterprise a great thing! 2: I examined the official website, and it is not readily clear as to whether registration is required for most small scale beekeepers. I did post a query to them, and they basically re-directed me to their website. However, there is NO COST to register, and except for keeping on file the additional ID, password, registration number, and related documentation, it would seem prudent to register anyway. If you sell more to resellers than directly to consumers, or if you process (extract) and bottle in a facility that is not a private residence, you would move into the "must register" category. If however, you are producing on an actual FARM, which is given explicit exemption in the regulations, you need not register at all. I extract at home, have hives on several real farms (and non-farms) and registered anyway. I did note that honey is not clearly listed as a food category (animal extract? - I refused to classify it as such, even though under IRS categories apiary-derived income comes under the "livestock" category). So having used the "other food" category, and offered no where else on the online form to This is my own interpretation of the regulations, which could be clearer. I would reccommend that if you miss the dealine register anyway. When the Spring flows start you don't want to be dealing with this stuff. Plus, it may give you some marketing value to say that your bees are joining the fight against Osama Bin Laden. C. Crowell Hightstown, NJ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:39:44 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Re: bioterrorism I screwed up and dropped a line from the sixth paragraph in that post. The complete line is: So having used the "other food" category, and offered no where else on the online form to type in the word "honey", my online registration offers little clue to the FDA as to what I actually produce. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:43:34 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: new bioterrorism registration Comments: cc: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Bob & All, >Because the above only involves a small part of the list please email me >direct unless you feel the information might benefit the list. > What part of the list does it involve? I think that is what a lot of want to know. I think if no one registers then they would be forced to do away with the registration requirements, and deal with things the way it has always been done. There has been no problems that I can tell where we need to register facilities. Let them pull honey if that's how they best think their time can be spent. Something tells me they will not pull the honey, why should they? . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:39:30 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: new bioterrorism registration Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Bob & All, >Many beekeepers say all beekeepers which fill a jar of honey which is not >consumed on the farm needs to register. >Are they correct or incorrect? > The way I read consume is if it is bought or taken from the property you do not have to register. My dictionary defines consume like this; ( Webster's New World Dictionary 5the definition reads; To buy consumer goods or services for one's personal needs.) If you sell honey from your home or farm you need not register, only if you sell it in stores. I may be wrong but I think I am right, I am sure if I am wrong someone will let me know for the sake of others. I read the pdh file on the requirements and this is what I think it is trying to state. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Cell phone ‘switch’ rules are taking effect — find out more here. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 03:36:59 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Comments Regarding The Nucleus, Fall/ Winter 2003 Up late tonight. Sitting here by a woodstove in a tack room with my Palm Pilot, waiting for a mare to give birth, expecting problems that may require human intervention and assistance. (And yeah, this is not a good month for a colt to be born, tell the owner of the horses...) Chuck said: > "In the next few months, [US Honey] Board staff will be > evaluating proposals for research opportunities, including > investigating honey's glycemic index..." Its interesting that the Honey Board is still soliciting proposals for research when the studies they fund may not be completed until after the Honey Board itself is long gone, and in theory to be replaced by some sort of "Packer/Importer board". Here's a pitch by a very well-connected person in favor of the "seamless transition" from the NHB to a Packer-Importer board: http://www.abfnet.org/Industry_News/NHBPIBConversion.html The problem with this approach is that it appears at first glance to be what a lawyer would call "conversion", and what a plain-spoken man would call "simple theft". The apparent "conversion" is the taking of beekeeper paid-for assets (intellectual property, trademarks, good will, and a pile of ready-to-reprint promotional materials estimated at several stories high), and the future use and control of these assets at the sole whim of the packers and importers. So, if you read the NHB's requests for proposals, you will find that researchers are required to agree that the NHB will be the sole "owner" of the research (as if anyone can "own" an understanding of the inner workings of the highly public-domain human body, revision 1.0, unchanged for millennia, or the glycemic index of honey, also highly public-domain...) But if the NHB "owns" things, both tangible and intangible, who "inherits" these things when the NHB disbands? While I have questions and concerns about the "transition", the pitch is factually correct - there is no possible scenario where the NHB can survive, as explained here: http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/months/03nov/03nov2.htm I'm sure that the packers and importers would like to make a transition "seemingly seamless", as it would facilitate the usurpation of the property of the NHB so that it can be used at the whim of the Packer-Importer board to advance their goal of promoting generic commodity honey from far-off places blended with just enough US-produced honey to mask the "flavor profile" characteristic of the stuff that arrives in drums stenciled in languages we can't read. I'm certainly not claiming that US beekeepers have sole claim to the assets of the NHB, but it seems reasonable that beekeepers who were assessed, some against their will, should expect to have their investment in the NHB "bought out", or should expect to take title to some portion of the assets when the NHB closes its doors. And even if US beekeepers have no idea what they might do with the assets of the NHB, does anyone want to watch such assets be handed over at no charge to a highly-organized and closely-knit group of people, most who directly compete with US beekeepers? But who might represent US honey producers, or at least act as trustee for the assets? The AHPA? A new producer-only board, dedicated to promte US honey? The EAS, WAS, and HAS? And it is not just honey - the whole consumer-goods cargo-cult dance has gone screwy - US citizens take equity out of their houses (mortgage them to the hilt) and run up credit card bills with balances larger than their retirement savings so they can pretend that they are wealthy, buying goods made by workers paid 24 cents an hour, and meanwhile, the countries that export goods to the US keep telling themselves that they can expand their economies by selling things to people who can't pay for them. We engineering folks have a term for systems like that. "Broken As Designed", or "B.A.D." Ya see, to be able to consume, first you have to produce something. Times sure have changed from my father's day. Back then, the USA could sell anything and everything we made to every country on the planet, and even lend them money to buy it. What can US beekeepers expect? No one ever gets what they deserve, they only get what they can negotiate. jim (And what do you do the day AFTER you live a day like it was the last day of your life?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 07:56:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: All beekeeping is local In-Reply-To: <121320031139.19168.65c9@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I first used that phrase, many years ago, it was directed more toward climate than practices. Each of us has local conditions that mold our beekeeping. The problem I saw with many posts was they universalized practices in one area as the norm for all areas. Every time we get into discussions about wintering practices, location clouds the issue. It gets even more cloudy when you read about practices within a few miles of the Arctic Circle, but find their winters are actually milder than yours. I am a bit sorry I ever borrowed and modified the phrase (Tip O'Neil originated it- All politics is local- have a nice signed photo of both of us "Many thanks for your friendship and kindness", sent after one of his close friends called him and tried to get me fired but failed). The phrase can be used to justify local practices that might work but are dead wrong. When I started beekeeping I relied on several local beekeepers for information. This was pre mite. I had limited success and was right there with the average yields per super for the state. So I thought I was doing everything right. Locally I was doing what everyone else did. It was not until I listened to real beekeepers, Tony Jadczak and George Imire, that I found out how wrong I was. George lives in an entirely different climate than I, but when I shifted to his methods, my bees were healthier and honey yields increased five fold. All beekeeping is not local. There are right ways and there are wrong ways. The problem is bees are forgiving. You can kill off a quarter or more of the colony because of your practices and they just have to try harder to survive your incompetence. I found that out recently. I thought I had arrived but know I am far from it. I thought I was very smart in growing my own queens for my area. For quite some time I enjoyed exceptional success, but I am now a convert to buying queens and requeening with known stock. That is what Tony and George do, but I though I found the grail. Instead I was breeding bees that were prone to Sacbrood. There are fundamental truths to keeping bees. All beekeeping is not local, but climates are and they do influence beekeeping and all agriculture (along with donning bikinis). So some beekeeping is local but fundamental truths still apply. "Successful beekeeper" is a relative term. As a hobby beekeeper I see the same off-the-mark comments by some on the list that I shared years ago. So I will pen a new slogan for the list. Bees can mask incompetence. Bill Truesdell (who is shifting to lurk mode- I am getting too cranky) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:11:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: new bioterrorism registration In-Reply-To: <000c01c3c110$192812c0$16a59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bob...I just received a NHB brochure explaining the "New Bioterrorism Regulations." There are exemptions. Those exempt include: Farms Retail Food Operations Restaurants Nonprofit operations that prepare or serve food directly to consumers Fishing vessels not engaged in processing Facilities regulated exclusively throughout the entire facility by the US Department of Agriculture Farms are defined as facilities in one general physical location devoted to growing and harvesting crops, the raising of animals, or both. The term "farm" also includes facilities that pack or hold food provided that all food used in such activities is grown, raised or consumed on that farm or another farm under the same ownership. A farm-operated roadside stand that sells food directly to consumers as its primary function would be exempt from registration as a retail food establishment. If you sell honey to a packer or sell honey to another outlet, you would need to register. If you produce honey and consume all of it at your location or sell food directly to consumers (roadside stand), you would be exempt from registration and record keeping. You will be required to keep records. Information includes: Name, address, and phone of facility (business) All trade names used Food product categories Emergency contact information Statement of truth Records would have to: 1. Identify the immediate (non-transporter) subsequent recipients of all foods received, including the name of the firm and the responsible individual; address; telephone number; fax number and e-mail address; type of food, including brand name and specific variety; date released; lot number or other identifier if available; quantity and type of packaging (e.g., 12 oz. bottles); the name, address, and telephone -and, if available, fax number and e-mail address-of the transporter who brought it. 2. Identify the immediate (non-transporter) subsequent recipients of all food released, including the name of the firm and the responsible individual; address; telephone number; fax number and e-mail address; type of food including brand name and specific variety; date released; lot number or other identifier if available; quantity and type of packaging; the name, address, and telephone number - and, if available, fax number and e-mail address - of the transporter who transported the food from you. 3. No particular record format is specified. 4. The proposed rules would require records to be created when food is received, released or transported, with the records to be retained for two years from that date. 5. All businesses must comply with the record keeping and access requirements within the time specified after the final regulation is published (Dec. 12, 2003): 10 or fewer full-time employees 18 months 11 to 499 full-time employees 12 months 500 or more full-time employees 6 months Honey producers would likely meet the farm exemption if it were not for the activity of extracting honey. The NHB believes honey extraction will be considered "processing." Thus, beekeepers who extract must register and comply with these regulations. I hope this helps clear up some confusion...on our's the beekeepers part. Mike As for their's, the gov't's part...not even this will end their confusion. And now that "they" know all about "our" activities...including what we read at the library of our choice...don't ya feel way safe?? my opinions are my own, and can be deleted by the moderators if necessary :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 08:33:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: bioterrorism SCAM alert MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Curtis wrote: 1: FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT: Registration is FREE. The site that suggests a fee of $195 (higher for non-U.S. firms) is a SCAM. I do not know how long the above web site has been in operation or how many beekeepers (and others) have been scammed. I do know what the National Honey Board told us yesterday. " if the fee is $195 at the web site then the fee must be $195 so go ahead and pay the fee." we said: "But your literature says registration is free" The national Honey board said" " go ahead and pay the fee" Would not checking and finding out why the site is charging a $195 fee have been a better response? Bob "Beam me up Scottie!" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:42:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Problems Receiving BEE-L? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have heard that a number of our stalwart BEE-L participants have been having trouble receiving BEE-L. For those who miss Stan, in PEI: He reported problems and is out of touch with us for exactly that reason. We got another similar comment from a friend the other day, and have reason to believe that there are many others, but they either don't think to let us know, or cannot unless they write us at our personal addresses. Allen did an article at http://honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/unable.htm quite a while back, discussing some of the issues, and with the increase of SPAM, many ISPs and outfits like AOL and MSN have put on drastic filters against robot-generated or relayed email. It happens that our friend and faithful servant, the LISTSERV, is a robot that relays messages. While this is not a topic one for discussion on the bee list, itself, the list owner and staff would be interested in hearing any similar tales. If you know of similar problems, simply hit 'reply', and the BEE-L janitors and maintenance staff will receive your reports. The catch 22 is that those who are having the problem will likely never see this message. Signed, Your friendly (and overworked) BEE-L janitors :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:51:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: Wrapping hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian wrote: I have yet to hear of a beekeeper who doesn't wrap their hives in cold winter conditions. When such statements are made it would be a convenience if your were to also reference your geographical location since that has such a strong bearing upon the sustenance of statements like this. Winter wrap is, AFAIK, unheard of in the area of southern Alabama, USA. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 15:40:37 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Wrapping hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Mike & All, >When such statements are made it would be a convenience if your were to >also >reference your geographical location since that has such a strong bearing >upon the sustenance of statements like this. This is why I include in my signature my exact location that I live, that location is within a 30-40 mile distance from where I keep the bees I keep. I used to includein my signature what I yhought was other relavent information about me and my location but I had to omit some of my signature because of its length even though I have seen on this list signatures that are longer than mine was and patted ones back real hard. for instance in my case I would leave in my signature a link to a weather site that would show my current weather and five day forcast to give those who actually read my post a chance to see how my weather is doing at the time the post is being read, seeing that beekeeping is actually local weather instead of just location. For this post I will leave my signature as I used to have it so members can judge for themselves if it is to long or not, maybe it was but I don't think so. really I guess we are lucky in some instances that we get a signature at all with some posts that gets through, left to wonder who and where did that come from. I am up front and straight forward with all I write and do. >Ian wrote: I have yet to hear of a beekeeper who doesn't wrap their hives >in >cold >winter conditions. > This is not true, even here on this list just within the last two weeks Bill T. of Bath Maine stated that he also does not wrap the hives he keeps. Now I would think that in Maine it will get preeetty cold even for Alaska standards, maybe in some or most years colder than some parts of Alaska, which is nothing more than a block of ice sticking out in the bering sea, the arctic ocean and The Gulf of Alaska. Why should I wrap a hive that is made out of drifted snow cut out in blocks, fashioned and looking like an igloo. d:~)> I hope a little humor does not hurt or offend anyone. I do belong to the Alaska lierers club. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads and busy signals? Get a high-speed Internet connection! Comparison-shop your local high-speed providers here. https://broadband.msn.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:52:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Question of English ! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/03 11:30:03 PM, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: << On the lighter side: And so then prior to mating a drone would be called "VIRGIN DRONE" or "DRONE" What then would we refer to the disemboweled drone which may live up to 12 hours on the ground? Bob >> Bob, ON THE LIGHTER SIDE: A male bee prior to mating is called a DRONE; and AFTER mating, he is called a DEAD OLD BEE. However, the scientists have not yet "proved" whether he died HAPPY. See you at ABF. George :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:21:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Problems Receiving BEE-L? In-Reply-To: <01ce01c3c1a0$79722e00$39b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >the list owner and staff would be interested in hearing any similar tales. If you know of similar problems, simply hit 'reply', and the BEE-L janitors and maintenance staff ... When I switched my subscription from a work email account to a Yahoo! Mail account, all BEE-L posts were being routed by Yahoo! to the Bulk Mail folder as probable spam. I had to write the following filter to get Yahoo! to treat them correctly. Click through Mail Options / Filters / Add and create two filters: Default name If... From contains "listserv@listserv.albany.edu" Then... Move message to Inbox folder and Default name If... Subject contains "[BEE-L]" Then... Move message to Inbox folder Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 02:11:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Fanning Properties, LLC" Subject: Re: Label problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: >Try spraying your labels with quick dry, clear spray paint. Two very >light coats .... Be careful with whatever you use as a "clear coat" if you print on "peal and stick" label stock. Before I decided it was far better for me to purchase labels, I used a couple of different standard brand label stocks and a couple of different "clear coat" products. In my case, the "clear coats" attacked the label adhesive resulting in the labels falling off the jars on the retailer's shelf. The labels appeared OK when I installed them. A week or two later, they started falling off. If you decide to make your own labels play close attention to Bob's advice and keep the "clear coat" very thin. I also found it easier to purchase a software package that was specifically designed to make labels. Bob Fanning Huntsville, AL USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:27:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Jerry Seinfeld To Star In 'Bee Movie' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain http://www.killermovies.com/b/beemovie/articles/3395.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 09:33:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Label problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, I'd be interested in what that software package was. Also, has any one tried Krylon spray. I believe it's used in art work as a "fixative". Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:05:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Wrapping hives >>>yet to hear of a beekeeper who doesn't wrap their hives in >cold >winter conditions. >>>When such statements are made it would be a convenience if your were to also >reference your geographical location since that has such a strong bearing >upon the sustenance of statements like this. As I have stated in my previous posts, I beekeep in Manitoba Canada. I guess, more specifically, I beekeep in southern Manitoba Canada. Sorry for not including that in my last post, I'm sure it would of helped everyone understand what I meant by cold winter conditions. For those of you that are interested in my winter weather, I'm sure you can find it at any weather website, For those of you who are further interested, I usually take the last of my supers off first to second week of September, to ensure my hives have enough time to feed up for the winter. The bees tend to recead to the bottom brood chamber beggining of Oct, and I generally wrap all my hives mid to late October. Bees are confined from MidOct to MidApril. Makes for a long winter. Last year was a very hard winter here in Manitoba. October came in at the coldest since 1887 or so, and some of the hives went into winter light. That compounded with a very cold SOLID Nov, Dec, Jan,and Feb. In Jan we had over two straight weeks of weather under -30degreesC. Windchills exceeding -40( I beleive thats where C & F both register the same!!). I'm telling you, I was glad my hives were wrapped up and sheilded from some of that fridgid weather. March came in like a lion and out like a lamb. And from April on, the hives that survived made up for the winterlosses, then some and went on the give me a bumper crop of honey for the season. >>>Winter wrap is, AFAIK, unheard >of in the area of southern Alabama, USA. "cold winter conditions" Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:43:03 -0700 Reply-To: Mathew Westall Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mathew Westall Subject: Bees in the News: Colorado Bee Migration-Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bees in the news - Denver Post: http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E53%257E1829920,00.html Article Published: Sunday, December 14, 2003 Colo. bees earn their stripes Winter work in California primes insects for honeymaking at home By Nancy Lofholm Denver Post Western Slope Bureau "As winter closes in on Colorado, birds have flown south, the bighorns are prancing down from the highest peaks - and time is running short for the bees to head west. But don't look for great buzzing swarms in the sky. Colorado has an annual bee migration - but the bees don't fly away under their own power. This move to the warmer climes of central California takes place down the interstates, in droning semi- truckloads of hives. Almost a billion Colorado bees make the 1,300-mile road trip each November and December, leaving Colorado nearly beeless until they are trucked back in the spring." --- remainder at the link above---- Interesting insight to Colorado beekeepers sending their bees to almond pollination. Matthew Westall - E-Bees - Castle Rock, CO // Earthling Bees >8(())))- "Take me to your feeder" \\ Castle Rock, CO, USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:17:44 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Long-Term Consequences of Annual Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: George Imirie " Yes, Robin (if you are following), essentially ALL of the U.S. commercial honey producers feed sugar to winter their colonies because the monetary value of honey is 3-4 times the cost of sugar." I am assuming the vast majority of all beekeepers feed some sugar in autumn, to bring stocks up to the locally ideal wintering weight. The need is for beekeepers just to have enough knowledge of bee biology that they do not over feed to the extent that winter stores get transferred upwards into supers in spring. In UK, the ration of retail sugar cost to retail honey price is nearer 12 than 3 to 4 - sugar is around 0.25GBP per lb in the supermarkest and local (raw) honey can be sold for Ł3 (but say Ł2.50 off a stall at the local farmers market). Even given the larger ratio, the impression I have is that UK hobbyists generally empty the supers but not the brood chamber - and how much is left that way depends on the late flow. In my southern area, bees have worked ivy very strongly thru to mid October these last few years, so no sugar feed has been needed (to hobbyists, without trailer tanks of factory syrup, feeding is a fun-less chore). The reason that sugar is priced so low here seems to have 2 reasons: for some time it was used as a loss leader by the large supermarkets; and the UK regularly produces a surplus as for utterly unacceptable reasons the producers get a large subsidy under the madness that prevails in farm support here. Does ivy yield in quantity elsewhere than UK? Robin :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:14:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: Question of English ! Comments: To: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, Bob and All, It seems like the term should be "spent drone" for one that has mated and will die. That's as in "his strength was all spent" or "his load of sperm was spent". Once it's spent, it's gone. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas >>> GImasterBK@AOL.COM 12/13/03 6:52 PM >>> In a message dated 12/12/03 11:30:03 PM, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: << On the lighter side: And so then prior to mating a drone would be called "VIRGIN DRONE" or "DRONE" What then would we refer to the disemboweled drone which may live up to 12 hours on the ground? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:46:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Long-Term Consequences of Annual Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am fairly sure that somebody somewhere in the U.S. gets ivy honey, but I have never seen it for sale. George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::