From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:29:29 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58D249075 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZek011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0312C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 173291 Lines: 3791 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:57:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Long-Term Consequences of Annual Requeening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/14/03 11:12:25 PM GMT Standard Time,=20 gmv47@DIAL.PIPEX.COM writes: >=20 > In UK, the ration of retail sugar cost to retail honey price is nearer 12 > than 3 to 4 - sugar is around 0.25GBP per lb in the supermarkest and loca= l > (raw) honey can be sold for =A33 (but say =A32.50 off a stall at the local > farmers market). This is incorrect, but only because you are using a completely different=20 yardstick to George. Their sugar is generally cheaper than ours, and the ret= ail=20 point of the honey is similarly a bit below ours. However, if you use a simi= lar=20 measure, bulk value (and you have to, because to incorporate the packing cos= t=20 and retail margin into the price of the honey distorts the figures), the=20 results are entirely different. Current bulk rates for sugar in the UK are over GBP 700 per tonne (delivered= =20 home, in bulk packs ready to use). If you are prepared to spend hours going=20= to=20 the supermarket, collecting, then emptying 1 kilo bags (and not give that=20 time or effort any value) you CAN get sugar for the region of 550 per tonne. However, the true price is nearer to 35p a pound than 25p if you want sacks=20 or bulk rather than loss leader retail packs. Outwith specialities, current *bulk* price for blossom honey in this country= =20 is about 135p, up to 150p for some localities. You can occasionally get a=20 little more if you have a specialised niche to work in, and of course this r= ate=20 does not apply to speciality varieties such as heather. These figures are not inconsistent with Georges version. (4 x 35p =3D 140p) >=20 > Does ivy yield in quantity elsewhere than UK? No ivy flow whatsoever up here. Flowers, and they get a bit of pollen, but=20 nothing more. Heather honey is also a poor winter feed due to its high prote= in=20 content. You can get away with it more years than not, but then you get some= =20 years with long flightless periods, and all that is left are dysentry victim= s.=20 Syrup ( we use pre made product from Europe) is a nice clean feed which does= =20 not fill the gut with waste as heather honey does. It is an important manage= ment=20 issue to remove excess heather stores, even from the broodnest area. Murray :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 07:06:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: budget boxes Any advice on budget versus commercial grade woodenware? A search here showed me one topic that mentioned the squareness and trueness of the cut is more important than knots or splits. I am thinking of ordering a few boxes first to check them out. Thank you. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 06:05:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: budget boxes In-Reply-To: <200312151206.hBFC3BB9008594@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I order the budgets and I've not had a problem, with the exception of a few chipped corners that leave gaps large enough for bee entry. Other than that, and the knots, they work great for me. Grant Gillard Jackson, MO "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" wrote: Any advice on budget versus commercial grade woodenware? A search here showed me one topic that mentioned the squareness and trueness of the cut is more important than knots or splits. I am thinking of ordering a few boxes first to check them out. Thank you. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 08:29:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: new bioterrorism registration Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike and Everyone, Mike wrote in part: "Farms are defined as facilities in one general physical location devoted to growing and harvesting crops, the raising of animals, or both. The term "farm" also includes facilities that pack or hold food provided that all food used in such activities is grown, raised or consumed on that farm or another farm under the same ownership. A farm-operated roadside stand that sells food directly to consumers as its primary function would be exempt from registration as a retail food establishment. If you sell honey to a packer or sell honey to another outlet, you would need to register. If you produce honey and consume all of it at your location or sell food directly to consumers (roadside stand), you would be exempt from registration and record keeping." Hmm, the farm exemption says that farms incluse facilities that pack or hold food as long as " all food used in such activities is grown, raised, or consumed on that farm ..." . As I read that a beekeeper ( bee farmer ) who sells honey produced in his or her operation is exempt from registration. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:37:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Sugar Sensitivities In-Reply-To: <021901c3c037$79034ea0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > OK, here's what I don't "get" about "sugar sensitivity": > > 1) There is a very simple and well-known process for > the metabolization of sugar, honey, fructose, and > other carbohydrates. > 2) To simplify, your body can't really tell the difference > between a Life-Saver candy and a spoonful of honey. > > 3) To go further, I am glossing over only a few details if > I say that your body can't tell the difference between > sugar, honey, HFCS, and a potato. You corrected me in my comment about "all sucrose is sucrose" by noting that there are isomers of sucrose. We also know from the literature that bees tolerate cane sugar better than beet sugar or invert sugar. So, maybe there are people whose makeup allows them to handle one isomer but not another. When we look at the function of the human body, we look at what we consider a normally functioning body. However, there are those whose bodies do not function normally. We have a good friend whose daughter is PKU and cannot eat most of the foods we call part of a normal diet. PKU is caused by the absence of an essential enzyme. Enzymes are associated with allergies in the inability of the body to convert some foods. I am going to take a stretch here, but if a normal body can handle any isomer of sucrose, then there might be some who lack one or more enzymes or whose enzymes are slightly different and cannot handle isomers. That would answer the problem with cane sugar allergies and not beet sugar as well as the reverse. Allergy is an inability of our system to handle something which most people have no problem with. > Bottom line, I'm going to feed my bees rather than let them > starve, and I'm not going to overfeed and perhaps sully my > crop with sugar simply because I don't want to increase my > costs by feeding too much. (I think that "sully" is a more > appropriate term than "contaminate".) As will I and I agree with the your choice of terms. The problem with sugar allergies, if they do truly exist, is that in all the sites I visited, the ones that took a semi-scientific approach, did not have much to support the claim that sugar allergies were the fault of sucrose and not something else that may have been in the sugar. The test was a classic food allergy test which was to shift to a "non-allergic" diet and slowly add different known allergens until you get a reaction. It is a good test as long as you know that the added food is as advertised and "pure". It probably was, but I can only assume that from what I read on those sites. The bottom line is that sugar "allergies" are really not a problem for the general population, and even those who proclaim a sugar allergy seem to be able to function well, even if they eat it. It is not life threatening. (There are sites that say otherwise but they all had an agenda, usually to buy something.) The larger problem was pointed out by Jim in his comments about the Atkins diet. Food fads are always around. Just check the internet about the deadly effects of white sugar or white bread. If you could tie, even remotely, honey to a health issue, it would seriously impact the industry. Alar and apples is classic. Forget science. Instead you are faced with anecdotes and proselytizers, a combo not foreign to this list. You cannot combat them since their minds have been made up and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them. There are no shades of gray. There is only pure ignorance. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:52:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: bioterrorism SCAM alert In-Reply-To: <121320030532.1845.3b21@att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As per the FDA registration requirements, I would agree with Curtis, it would appear that "there is NO COST to register". For things like this, always look for the URL of the official page, in this case fda. buyitfromusyoufool.com would clearly be a commercial (.com) web site. Similary, www.fda.gov (.gov) is the government site. Normally, our government does not charge for electronic registration of things like this -- we just finished registering a corporation, getting DUNN and CAGE numbers, etc. Now, we did pay $69 for an expedited number - if we'd been willing to wait 30 days, it would have been free. Admittedly, Google brought up the .com sites at the top of the list, so obviously lots of people are falling for this ploy, since Google factors in numbers of hits when it posts its results. A similar scam occurs with URL domain names. Someone goes out an registers a dictionary full of names, then re-sells them at an inflated price. As per the honey board, sounds like the person answering the phone didn't know the answer -- someone at NHB should have been able to cite chapter and verse about the regulations. Finally, its clear that the purpose of the registration is traceability of a food product to the source. Its also clear that imports get a high degree of attention from FDA. Just a guess, but if you have your own label with your honey "farm" -- say: Jan's Honey, Honey Bear RD, Aberdeen, MD, that just might serve to identify the "farm". Any lawyers in the group?? Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:48:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: budget boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you think the bees really care about the grade of wood? Just use a good type of preservative on the wood that's made for hives and they will bee happy. I had somewhere here a mixture of coppernaptate, turpentine, store bought wax, and maybe something else that keeps my wood well preserved. The bees did very well in it. Russ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:59:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Sugar Sensitivities In-Reply-To: <3FD9E0B6.7020807@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: Some very astute things regarding potential causes of food sensiticity. > Allergy is an inability of our system to handle something which most > people have no problem with. I hate to be picky, but I think it important that we keep our terms strait. Allergies are an inappropriate reaction of the immune system to foreign materials to be specific. To be allergic to something the molecules in question need to be large enough to attract the attention of immunocytes and be something some immunoglobilins (IgE specifically) can stick to. Sugar is waaaaay to small for that. Proteins are the main culprit. Big molescules, sticky, oddly and specifically shaped - just perfect for the task. Another example - you may meet people that claim to be allergic to anesthesia, not so - they react poorly and in unexpected ways - but are not allergic to the stuff - the molecules are too small. > The problem with sugar allergies, if they do truly exist, is that in all > the sites I visited, the ones that took a semi-scientific approach, did > not have much to support the claim that sugar allergies were the fault > of sucrose and not something else that may have been in the sugar. Bingo - more complex molecules and such, presented in certain ways to certain individuals trigger an immune respose, in the case of food items, an inappropriate one. Many sugars available today are hardly pure, and do contain some larger molecules. Having said that, ever notice that folks claiming sugar allergies are not talking about eating sugar strait - it is always in something - never mind the sugar having something else in it - it is usually one ingredients among many in some other product. I think anyone who feels that they have an allergy to sugar (or any other food for that matter) might like to visit http://www.foodallergy.org/ To quote: What is the difference between food allergy and food intolerance? Many people think the terms food allergy and food intolerance mean the same thing; however, they do not. A food intolerance is a metabolic disorder and does not involve the immune system. Lactose intolerance is one example of a food intolerance. A person with lactose intolerance lacks an enzyme that is needed to digest milk sugar. When the person eats milk products, symptoms such as gas, bloating, and abdominal pain may occur. A food allergy occurs when the immune system reacts to a certain food protein. The most common form of an immune system reaction occurs when the body creates immunoglobulin E (IgE) antibodies to the food. When these IgE antibodies react with the food, histamine and other chemicals (called mediators) cause hives, asthma, or other symptoms of an allergic reaction. end quote The short version - you need something large enough and complex enough to react with IgE - proteins are the most common offenders and sucrose, glucose, fructose and most other *oses are too small a molecule and simply wont do the trick. An oversimplification 'tis true, accurate none-the-less. So, should we correct these fine folks who proclaim a sugar allergy? Nah, that would be as productive as correcting the 80 zillion people who, once finding out I am a beekeeper, inform that they are allergic to bee stings. Now since only some 1:10,000 people are truely allergic to bee venom, I must know one heck of a lot of people!! Smile nice and nod. Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:19:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: Brewer's Yeast Any comments about my plans to reuse the dregs of my homebrewing efforts as a nutrional supplement for bees. Brewer's yeast sure seemed expensive and I could trade honey with my local brewers for an endless supply. Are you experienced with doing this? If there are hop residues does it turn off the bees? Does one need to heat up the brewing byproduct? Thank you! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:32:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: budget boxes FYI, I purchase both commercial and select woodenware for my business as I resell woodenware as well as other beekeeping supplies. However, I use only commercial woodenware for building my hives, frames, and supers. If I find a loose knot I glue it with a water-resistant glue, the same glue as I use on all my wooden frames as well as 10 nails or 10 staples. I have found that in some cases one's commercial woodenware is equal to or better than another source's select. I do not purchase budget woodenware because these truly are rejects and the quality is truly missing. IMO you are better off buying woodenware from a supplier that you can trust and who you can build a long term relationship with; the price of the woodenware is not as important as the quality of the manufacturer. One important note: Beespace! Each reputable manufacturer will dimension their woodenware as a system since beespace must be maintained between frames, supers, hive bodies, etc. If you get frames from one manufacturer, supers from another, and hive bodies and innerboards from still another you are inviting the bees that you want to put forth effort drawing comb on frames to fill your hive with burr, brace and bridges of comb and honey that you will wind up removing with your hivetool and not an uncapping knife. IMO using budget woodenware invites the same problems. It pays to be prudent, not cheap! Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:46:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sugar Sensitivities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> 1) There is a very simple and well-known process for >> the metabolization of sugar, honey, fructose, and >> other carbohydrates. >> 2) To simplify, your body can't really tell the difference >> between a Life-Saver candy and a spoonful of honey. >> >> 3) To go further, I am glossing over only a few details if >> I say that your body can't tell the difference between >> sugar, honey, HFCS, and a potato. Well tiny, infinitesimal details, smaller and pickier than most people care to think about, is how we managed to hit the moon and come back instead of taking a trip to the sun. Painting quickly, with a wide brush like that, we'll never paint a Mona Lisa. Might get a "Voice of Fire", tho'. I suppose it is a matter of taste. > So, maybe there are people whose makeup allows them to handle one > isomer but not another... etc. Bill gets the point. In a nutshell, regardless of all our sophistry, the plain fact is that we don't know. We don't even know what we don't know. Bears some reflection . The questions are out there. When they come back, the answers they bring could bite us. Also, we are selling, as much as anything, not just honey, but a story. It would be nice if it proves to be completely true. It might, but not if we capitulate, oversimplify and lose all those pesky little details that set us apart from mass-produced refined sweetners -- and potatoes. >> Bottom line, I'm going to feed my bees rather than let them >> starve, and I'm not going to overfeed and perhaps sully my >> crop with sugar If you feed your bees sugar, *some* is guaranteed to wind up in the honey. YMMV. I really don't want to get into all the details of how much brood chamber honey (or feed) has been *proven* to travel upstairs in some cases, but it is more than a thimblefull. Is it bigger than a breadbox? I'll let someone else answer that. > The bottom line is that sugar "allergies" are really not a problem for > the general population, and even those who proclaim a sugar allergy > seem to be able to function well, even if they eat it. That is true, and reassuring. Robin brought up and nursed ths topic, a topic most beekeepers prefer to avoid, or gloss over, and I thank him for it. In the future, this question, and the questions that revolve around it, may prove suddenly be a big deal. A little conscious-raising right now can't help but be a good thing. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com Bah! Humbug! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:09:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: budget boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I order the budgets and I've not had a problem, with the exception of > a few chipped corners that leave gaps large enough for bee entry. > Other than that, and the knots, they work great for me. There can be many reasons that boxes are designated 'budget', from warping, bad grain, misadustment of the machines making them, to bad fit, big edge knots, dry rot etc... Sometimes designating boxes as 'budget' is just an excuse to drop price and clear an overstock without triggering a priice war. However, in today's market situation, with high honey prices, there is no shortage of demand, so the selection criteria are likely higher than at times of slacker demand. These days, anything at all passable probably goes into the select or commercial grades. How diligently they sort also depends on season, who is on shift the day they are sorted, and the particular supplier's internal policies. There is no binding industry standard. I'd recommend that you see the actual boxes you are buying, unless you are trusting, and not at all fussy. A small difference in purchase price can mean the difference between equipment you love and can resell, and firewood with bees in it. When you consider the effort of assembly, the cost of galvanized nails, and the paint, a dollar or two saved on purchase is often not worth the sacrifice. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary How Canada shot itself in the foot in 1986, and keeps insisting it was a good idea, while hobbling along. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:01:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: budget boxes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > Just use a good > preservative on the wood that's made > of coppernaptate... That would be copper napthanate Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:32:19 -0800 Reply-To: glenne@engel.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glenn Engel at Home Subject: web-based Beekeeping Notebook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I have created a free web-based beekeepers notebook at http://www.MyBeeHives.com that I would encourage folks to check out and give me feedback on. It is intended to be a free site for beekeepers to keep track of their hives and to record visits to their bee yards with just a few clicks. It uses a mysql database to store the records and has easy to use forms for recoring your data. The server is on a high-bandwith very reliable hosting service (pair.com). I intend to enhance the site and database functions over time based on feedback and would love to hear from folks who want to contribute and maintain web content such as beekeeping association links, research links, articles etc. If anyone is interested in helping please let me know! I would also like feedback on the concept of providing free web hosting to beekeeping clubs who can use FrontPage to maintain their website. I can create 'sub-accounts' such as mybeehives.com/clubname at no cost. Send me a note if you want to try this. Please check out http://www.mybeehives.com and let me know what you think! Thanks, -- Glenn :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:20:32 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: budget boxes Chuck Norton said: > I do not purchase budget woodenware because these > truly are rejects and the quality is truly missing. Perhaps things have changed in 20 years, but I know the majority of bee supply dealers out there, as most all of them sell Bee-Quick. EACH and EVERY one of them have significant integrity, and all are smart enough to know that a super that is "sloppy enough" to violate bee space has no possible use except as "board stock" to be ripped into wooden entrance reducers. Before we started churning out our own boxes (in the 1980s), we spoke with a number of the well-known names in bee supplies, and each and every one assured us that even their "Budget" woodenware would be within reasonable dimensional tolerances, and thus not violate bee space. We ordered a bunch, spot-checked a statistically significant random sample before assembling with the intention of rejecting the lot if a large number of the components were found to be lacking. What we found was that there were few VERTICAL tolerance problems that would impact bee space. The most common problem was poor fit on the finger joints, clearly the result of blades getting dull, jigs wearing out, misalignment, etc. These were easy to fix, but this did slow down assembly, and led to fabrication of jigs for the table saw. I would be very surprised if anyone sold a "budget" super that had dimensional tolerance problems sufficient to violate bee space. The "grading" of woodenware is more about the sinking quality of board stock over the past 30 years than anything else. (Yeah, sure - "sustainable lumber harvesting". Uh huh, and every day at 4:45pm, pigs fly around in all those sustainable forests!) That said, only words that cannot be spoken on this mailing list can describe my complete disgust in the ongoing lack of a North American multi-vendor standard that would allow interchangeable woodenware, despite 3 highly detailed articles in "Bee Culture" over the years that have shown that some vendors don't even respect bee space when you stack their mediums on their deeps and use their frames! jim (I said "no" to drugs - they didn't listen) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:06:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Re: bioterrorism SCAM alert In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20031215095237.01e64e58@selway.umt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, December 15, 2003, at 10:52 AM, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > As per the FDA registration requirements, I would agree with Curtis, it > would appear that "there is NO COST to register". I just took a short trip to Google on this topic, and I was appalled that the sites that charge for registration were listed before the official FDA site. Of course they were . . . they paid for it. I also took a quick trip to the FDA site and was impressed by how well designed it is and how carefully and clearly they describe the registration process. (I'm not talking about the issue of whether you must register. The language of the law is outside the control of the people who designed the web site. I do think that the FDA web site is very well done, given that they had to work with a typical piece of legislation passed by the US Congress, which is always difficult to interpret.) It would be one thing if these third-party web sites were actually adding value . . . but their fees ($200-$500) are way out of proportion to any value that they could add. The bottom line is that the owner/manager of the business has to gather certain information and provide it to the FDA. The time spent is in the gathering process, and little time is saved by using the third-party site, as opposed to the no-charge FDA site. I'm actually a little surprised that the FDA would allow people to make money fronting a service that is free. I guess that throttling private enterprise is a slippery slope, best not started down, Anyone remember the first Usenet spam -- it was a service to apply for a green card in a free lottery. These web sites trying to extract money for a free service bring back that memory. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 07:30:45 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Varroa destructor and Apis cerana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We now know that the Varroa causing problems for Apis mellifera is Varroa destructor and not the original Varroa jacobsonii found on Apis cerana. Does anyone know if V.d. can, or has, transferred to cerana? If so, can cerana cope with it in the same way that it copes with V.j.? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:53:54 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: budget boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Chuck Norton said: > I do not purchase budget woodenware because these > truly are rejects and the quality is truly missing. As an ex-equipment manufacturer in UK, I can comment with reasonable authority :-) In general nobody sets out to make junk, although I have seen examples that were pretty poor. Most of the parts that become 'seconds' are rejected for cosmetic reasons rather than any dimensional errors. My own personal equipment has been made mainly from parts rejected during my own manufacture, this has been no problem for me and no detriment to the bees. Bee space violation only occurs here when boxes of US or NZ manufacture are mixed in with British hive boxes. Dimensionss in beekeeping manufacture have historically been maintained to a high standard in UK as we did have an official 'British Standard', unfortunately this has now lapsed. Declining quality in available timber has been a problem in UK for longer than in US, but providing some extra seasoning is undertaken by the manufacturer, the effects of this can be minimised. It does however eat up storage space... As the best way of achieving it is to stack part machined components at various times during manufacture for several months at a time. This attention to detail helps to keep tolerances small and of the order of 0.1 mm (0.004") which we used to be proud of. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:35:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Suzanne Geisler Subject: stinky honey (goldenrod) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My first harvest as a novice beekeeper is this fall's aster/goldenrod = honey. I don't mind that it's solid but it sure does smell! When I first = smelled the frames I was afraid it was foulbood. The beekeepers in my = club laughed at me when I brought a frame to the next meeting and told = me it was the goldenrod.=20 I would like to give away a small jar to friends at Christmas, but it = smells so rotten that I think everyone will smile indulgently and pour = (well, not pour but plop) it down the sink when I leave. Is there anyway = to get rid of the odor? It tastes OK. Suzanne Geisler Springboro, OH :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:05:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TxBeeFarmer Organization: The Little ~ Coldiron Farm Subject: Water Based Wood Preservative for Hive Bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've always used a solution Copper Napthanate and water to soak hive bodies before assembly; however, the wood tends to cup slightly making assembly with tight corners difficult to achieve. Any suggestions on avoiding this? Should I be soaking after assembly? (West Texas) Mark :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:46:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa destructor and Apis cerana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter asks: Does anyone know if V.d. can, or has, transferred to cerana? All the known varroa can exit on cerana. I believe in areas of Asia VD now infests cerana. Peter asks; If so, can cerana cope with it in the same way that it copes with V.j.? I my knowledge yes. Despite what others will tell you about grooming being the main reason varroa is able to coexist with cerana the real *main* reason is that for some unknown ( yet undiscovered) reason varroa is not able to reproduce in cerana worker brood so a measure of natural control is had. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:28:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL Subject: Re: stinky honey (goldenrod) In-Reply-To: <000a01c3c3d9$8419aaa0$6f8fdf18@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suzanne Geisler wrote: > My first harvest as a novice beekeeper is this fall's aster/goldenrod honey. > I don't mind that it's solid but it sure does smell! > When I first smelled the frames I was afraid it was foulbood. > > I would like to give away a small jar to friends at Christmas, > but it smells so rotten that I think everyone will smile indulgently and pour (well, not pour but plop) > it down the sink when I leave. > Is there anyway to get rid of the odor? It tastes OK. HEY SKIP!!! - I found another source of that good stuff for ya :) And Allen is familiar with this stuff too - remember the 3oz sample I sent you back in '99?. This was your response: (Got the sample and my first reaction was: "Is this stuff toxic?") I sent one to Andy for his opinion but unfortunate circumstances intervened. Time is the secret - lots of time. Store your harvest in a sealed plastic bucket for, oh, about two years. By then it will have solidified and require warming to liquify. Filter it while warm. You said it tastes 'OK' - I don't particularly care for the flavor but I've actually had people ask specifically for goldenrod honey, go figure. And someone on this list said they were selling it for a premium price. There may be a goldmine in goldenrod, but I make an effort to take my share of honey before it blooms in the fall. My bees seem to winter very well on goldenrod so its a win-win kinda thing. AL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:02:42 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: new bioterrorism registration I read the brochures available on the FDA website, as I am a beekeeper, and have significant financial interests in a bakery, and a used bookstore/coffeehouse. http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~acrobat/fsbtreg.pdf http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~acrobat/fsbtpn.pdf I noticed that they included disclaimers at the bottom of the inside covers. As I do a lot of work for the gummit (that ought to help you to sleep better at night!), I have a certain amount of skill in reading and understanding government wording, so I thought I'd translate and explain for other beekeepers from the point of view of one who pronounces "government" as "gummit", as I KNOW it can get very sticky at times: =================================================== "This guidance document is a restatement of the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA's) current requirements for registration of food facilities presented in simplified format and language." TRANSLATION: The wording of the law is complete gibberish, so we thought we'd try to explain it in plain English. "As guidance, it is not binding on either FDA or the public." TRANSLATION: But don't hold us to anything we say here. The law itself, even though an incomprehensible muddle of jargon and legalese, is the law, and it must somehow be obeyed, even if no one ever successfully translates it into plain English. "FDA notes, however, that the regulation that is the basis for this pamphlet establishes requirements for all covered activities." TRANSLATION: So, no matter who you are, you have to stop what you are doing and make a choice: either (A) read this, do what it says, and hope that what we say is accurate, or (B) hire a team of lawyers, and hope that THEY can understand it and explain it to you. Either way, it is a gamble, and you are betting your livelihood. "For this reason, FDA strongly recommends that affected parties consult the regulation at 21 CFR Part 1, Subpart H, in addition to reading this pamphlet." TRANSLATION: On second thought, don't believe a single word we say in this fancy color brochure, printed at taxpayer expense. This brochure is useless, as only the language of the law itself is "the law". Never mind that you can't understand it, the law says what it says, and it will certainly be explained in detail through enforcement actions, court rulings, fines, and other processes that we use to inform you when you have screwed up. (If it is any consolation, we here at the FDA think that even Congress itself does not understand this law. Think about it! How could anyone "poison" a large number of people unless they poison a LARGE food supply? Any random reservoir would be a more effective target for poisoning. Why bother tracking small-scale operations at all? We kinda like our existing recall process, and we know it works, but we have to do as we are told.) "The Food and Drug Administration has prepared this guidance to restate the legal requirements set forth in 21 CFR 1.225 through 1.243 concerning registration of food facilities under the Public Health Security and Bioterrorism Preparedness and Response Act of 2002." TRANSLATION: We had better give you a citation to the actual wording of the law. We've only written two paragraphs so far, but we have realized that we are wasting our time, and maybe mis-informing people who could be fined, criminally prosecuted, and maybe even have their inventory confiscated. "This guide is intended to help..." TRANSLATION: Yeah, 'help'. That's the ticket! We are 'helping'. "...any entity, regardless of size, to comply with the regulations..." TRANSLATION: The immigrant street-corner hot dog and ice cream vendors who have yet to master English beyond 'You want onions?', let alone hear of this new regulation, will be easy to arrest, hold without due process, and deport. This is the actual fear over at Homeland Security - a low-yield battlefield tactical nuclear device, bought from a rouge supply Sergeant in a breakaway Soviet republic, smuggled in via Canada in a 55-gallon drum of maple syrup, and deployed in an ice cream vendor's cart in Lafayette Park, right across Pennsylvania Avenue from the White House. (We here at the FDA think that those guys at Homeland Security have been reading far too much Tom Clancy, but we aren't going to argue with Lebensraum-Uber-Meister Ashcroft. We don't want to be held without due process as "enemy combatants" either. We have families too, ya know.) "...that require domestic and foreign facilities that manufacture/process, pack, or hold food for human or animal consumption in the United States to register with FDA." TRANSLATION: Yes, we are imposing requirements even on people who are governed by the laws of other countries, not even citizens or residents of the USofA. Don't like it? Then don't try and ship us any food. Did you really think that we were going to comply with any of those "World Trade" agreements, and submit our biosecurity and health concerns to the WTO's 'Office International des Epizooties' (OIE) for their consideration? Come on! Even their name is in French, for Pete's sake! You know that we consider France to be a member of the 'Axis of Inaction'. Anyway, you saw what we did in Afghanistan and Iraq - do you REALLY want to pick a fight with the only remaining superpower on the planet? Call now, cruise missiles are standing by to respond to your complaints! "This document also serves as FDA's Small Entity Compliance Guide (SECG), in accordance with section 212 of the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act (Public Law 104-121)." TRANSLATION: This is all you are gonna get from us, so don't try to complain that you are a small business, and can't afford to spend the money required to figure out if you have to comply with this law, or are exempt. Yes, we know that we are required by law to make life easier for small businesses like beekeepers, bakers, and hot dog vendors, but the bottom line is that we can't clearly explain something that we ourselves don't understand. jim ("Carpe Guttur" - Seize the throat!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:16:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: stinky honey (goldenrod) In-Reply-To: <000a01c3c3d9$8419aaa0$6f8fdf18@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suzanne Geisler wrote: > I would like to give away a small jar to friends at Christmas, but it > smells so rotten that I think everyone will smile indulgently and > pour (well, not pour but plop) it down the sink when I leave. Is > there anyway to get rid of the odor? It tastes OK. Tell them it is an exotic honey and normally sells for $15 an ounce because of its wonderful flavor and sweetness. That will get them by the odor :) I wrote that in jest, but it is really not far from the truth. I have purchased several high priced honeys that were absolutely foul, but since they were rare, commanded a high price and sold well (but mostly to tourists). There is another truth to honey which is those who are young or use it little prefer the lighter, sweet but fairly bland honeys (clover) while those who eat more honey or are older, like the darker, full bodied honeys. So if those who are going to get the gift are 40s or older, they will probably like the goldenrod honey. Younger or not honey users, it will sit on the shelf. But you can convince them it is excellent for cooking, and it might be used. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:34:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: budget boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As in beekeeping topics, again we get a lot of good advice and perspective as various experienced and knowledgeable people write from all over the world, each from his/her own experience. That is good for getting an overview, but general truths are not always applicable to a specific small sample, particularly where details have not been given. In this case, we don't know the supplier in question, the buyers needs, standards, purposes or budget. As in beekeeping, we can say that all woodworking is local, and that appear to be 'worldwide universal truths' may have local exceptions, and I suggest that these truths may apply on something like a bell curve. These in the middle may find them true all the time, everywhere, and others nearer the trailing edges may find that these 'truths' apply some of the time and others... Having made a living designing and building furniture back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, I can offer a few thoughts and experiences. Actually, I have before, some time back, on this very list. Others wrote very good essays as well, and as often the case, they will likely write brief comments now, but not bother to regurgitate the entire previous discussion, so a dive into the archives may be worthwhile for those hungry for info. One huge consideration for both fussy beekeepers and serious woodworkers is that local ambient humidity may differ a lot, and what is 'dry' on the coast, may be 'damp' inland. Therefore, machining standards may vary. Well-seasoned (antique) furniture from the East has been brought west and found to shrink and crack in the dryness of our climate, especially when that dryness exacerbated by central heating in winter. Kiln drying has improved the situation for builders of bee boxes, but a kiln is only as good as the operator, and, besides, kiln dried wood (8%? as I recall, but it has been decades) is still pretty damp where I live. Each different wood has unique characteristics, and may differ in the amout of shrinkage in drying and swelling in service. Moreover, 'pine' is not 'pine'; there are countless varieties of pine, each with differing machining, life expectancy and rot resistance properties. Softwoods, in particular, can be very difficult to work with any degree of consistency, since the density, the grain, the moisture, and warpage all vary from sample to sample, resulting in varying machinabilty and resulting dimensional drift. This can be managed, but it requires understanding of each wood, and careful attention to detail. When several woods are being milled in the same shop, at the same time, on the same batch, as happens, for example when a spruce/pine mix is purchased, some dimensional problems are bound to ocur. Corners may not quite fit tightly -- or too tightly, and the heights of sides and ends may not match perfectly. Fortunately, these problems may only be apparent to the woodworkers, since beekeeping tolerances are quite wide, most beekeepers are not too fussy, and the problems are usually quite subtle. Many North American beekeepers trim the boxes to width, using a table saw after assembly and drying in a heated room, since some manufacturers deliverately deliver them a bit too high, to allow for unpredictable shrinkage and for trimming. That brings me to this comment. > As the best way of achieving it is to > stack part machined components at various times during manufacture > for several months at a time. This attention to detail helps to keep > tolerances small and of the order of > 0.1 mm (0.004") which we used to be proud of. I'm sure Dave got the very best out of his wood, and all the accuracy that could be had by virtue of such attention to detail, and careful drying, but this mention brings to mind an experience I had some time back, buying from a well-known and respected US supplier. I ordered a pallet or two of supers to be used for Ross Rounds production. That is not a normal size that all dealers stock (When they do, for some reason, they are always stock boxes that are a half-inch too high and need ripping). When the boxes arrived, as expected, they were Ponerosa pine, commercial grade (looked more like select), lock cornered, and drilled for nailing: very nice. What amused me, though, was that it seemed that they had cut down pieces for a taller box size or maybe pieces designated for wider box that had bottom edge flaws. The shop had obviously cut the pieces down just before delivery by making one straight cut, ripping a strip off the bottom of each piece, to arrive at the proper height. However, they must have stacked the partially complete pieces for some time in a dry place -- but maybe not for months -- between the original machining and the ripping. During that time, the ends had dried much more than the middles of the pieces, and when they ripped, they made a straight cut, BUT, when we assembled them and the boxes dried out, there was 1/8" to 1/4" bow upwards in the centre of each side on the bottom due to the shrinkage of the part that had been moist when cut. What had been a straight cut was no longer straight when the moisture equalized. No problem. We had ordered them wide, and simply ripped off the excess, elimating the bowed edge. Anyhow, advice to the prospective purchaser: Examine carefully any boxes you purchase before you buy, unless you know the seller and their standards, or you don't care. Sometimes there are bargains, but in a tight market like this, I would expect there is a very good reason for any price markdown. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:27:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: stinky honey (goldenrod) In-Reply-To: <3FDF24B9.6090708@hcis.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, AL wrote: > You said it tastes 'OK' - I don't particularly care for the flavor but > I've actually had people ask specifically for goldenrod honey, go > figure. And someone on this list said they were selling it for a > premium price. There may be a goldmine in goldenrod, but I make an > effort to take my share of honey before it blooms in the fall. My bees > seem to winter very well on goldenrod so its a win-win kinda thing. > As far as the smell and flavor of "goldenrod" honey is concerned, remember that there are an estimated 50 species of goldenrod in North America, and I'm sure that they don't all smell the same. For example, whatever the dominant goldenrod species is here in northern Michigan gives a nice-flavored, somewhat fruity medium-dark honey with no objectionable odor at all. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 07:57:00 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Varroa destructor and Apis cerana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote > Does anyone know if V.d. can, or has, transferred to cerana? If so, can > cerana cope with it in the same way that it copes with V.j.? Talking with Dr. Denis Anderson he has done a lot of work on varroa and cerana. I am not sure if he has published this information but I hope I am quoting him correctly. Firstly VD is found naturally on cerana. There are at least two haplotypes of VD. The Korean and Japanese types reproduce on Apis mellifera. There are a lot of haplotypes of varroa. Each is specific to a strain (right word?) of cerana. So this means that Varroa destructor will only reproduce on one strain of cerana. VD cannot reproduce on the strain of cerana that is the natural host of say Varroa jacobsoni and vice versa. Denis has given us examples of VD in Vietnam (as I recall) that was reproducing on Apis mellifera but not on the local cerana. However there was a haplotype of varroa reproducing on the local cerana that was not reproducing on AM. This is not to say that VD will not be found in the hive of cerana that hosts VJ. It is just that it cannot reproduce in the same way that VJ does not reproduce on AM. This has good repercussions for our quarantine work here in Australia in that previously we had to get the actually varroa to find out if it was VD or VJ. Now we need only have a sample of bee and the DNA will give us which varroa it is the natural host for. So surveys offshore will let us know where the threat from varroa is coming from. This is crucial in the north where Indonesia is shifting hives of cerana around from island to island as part of a re-settling programme. Whilst they are shifting cerana that host VJ we are safe but when they shift cerana that hosts VD then we need to be viligent. ope the above helps. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:37:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: budget boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen et al: Plywood is more dimensionally stable than solid timber. My biscuit joined plywood supers are the same size and shape as they were originally. Some are now about 7 years old. I would not go back to solid wood. The commercial frames are all over the place in length. For a given box I can find frames that will not fit in, some that are right and some that fall through. The ones that fall through are Pierco one piece frames which are shorter than any of my wood ones. They fit nicely in some commercial boxes that were made with 7/8 " thick material. Best regards Donald Aitken --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 11/12/2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:30:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: Re: Brewer's Yeast I was really hoping for some takers on this one. Isn't brewer's yeast a key part of pollen substitute? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:22:03 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Varroa destructor and Apis cerana In-Reply-To: <005c01c3c3a6$88c97f40$488f87d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <005c01c3c3a6$88c97f40$488f87d9@oemcomputer>, Peter Edwards writes >We now know that the Varroa causing problems for Apis mellifera is Varroa >destructor and not the original Varroa jacobsonii found on Apis cerana. > >Does anyone know if V.d. can, or has, transferred to cerana? If so, can >cerana cope with it in the same way that it copes with V.j.? V.d. is just one (or two: Thai and Korean) of the many races of varroa on cerana. The Korean haplotype is the one we have AFAIK. All the varroa types or races came from cerana. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:07:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Water Based Wood Preservative for Hive Bodies In-Reply-To: <003601c3c3dd$9f545a00$11c43745@me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Why don't you mix the copper napthanate with low odor mineral spirits? Dip after assembly. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:16:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Brewer's Yeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I was really hoping for some takers on this one. Isn't brewer's > yeast a key part of pollen substitute? Well we have discussed pollen supplements and yeast before at length here on BEE-L, and a search for 'yeast' or 'brewer' with the Substring search box checked (so you get posts with brewer and brewer and brewer's) might get you some of what you need. As I recall, though, we never did get all the technical details. I don't know if the yeast must be alive or dead, but I do know the brand that all the beekeepers use. Seems to me that Andy figured the yeast they used was alive and active, but I really don't know. As for replies, I very glad we have not had a blizzard of wild guesses that fog the issue. I'm assuming the reason that no one answered is that nobody here really knows how the dregs of your brewing would work out. If you find out, please let us know. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:17:25 -0600 Reply-To: whitehousefarm@mindspring.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carol Mark Subject: Re: Water Based Wood Preservative for Hive Bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII i use a woodworkers devise that is a box assembly piece of equipment you can purchase at some woodworkers supply outlets like woodcrafters. it's a four corner vise and i work around the box started in the middle and radiate out from there. i can get really tight boxes with this and using the penetrant i know what the issue is with getting everything to fit up right. carol mark > [Original Message] > From: TxBeeFarmer > To: > Date: 12/16/03 8:18:17 AM > Subject: [BEE-L] Water Based Wood Preservative for Hive Bodies > > I've always used a solution Copper Napthanate and water to soak hive bodies > before assembly; however, the wood tends to cup slightly making assembly > with tight corners difficult to achieve. Any suggestions on avoiding this? > Should I be soaking after assembly? > > (West Texas) Mark > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:29:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa destructor and Apis cerana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor said: Talking with Dr. Denis Anderson he has done a lot of work on varroa and cerana. Thanks Trevor for the update. A very complicated subject. When I first came on BEE-L I did a search of the word cerana and got no hits. Different today. I said back then and still believe today that the answer to a bee able to live with VD lies with cerana. If only we could keep varroa alive in the lab for over a week to find a weakness. . Not wanting to take away from Trevor's excellent post but when referring to varroa reproduction on cerana we are only referring to varroa reproducing in drone cells as I have been told over and over that varroa does not and has never been known to reproduce in a single cerana worker cell. Perhaps Denis Anderson will find different in the future. As Dee will say reducing cell size of mellifera to the worker cell size of cerana has not stopped varroa from reproducing in worker cells *completely*( as is the case with cerana). Cerana and mellifera are closely related BUT WILL NOT CROSS! Many researchers (not sure of Anderson's opinion) believe that cerana has a different juvenile growth hormone with seems to deter varroa from reproducing in cerana worker brood but only an unproven hypothesis but a hypothesis I lean to believe (at present time). Interesting subject! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 07:54:37 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] Varroa destructor and Apis cerana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Peter Edwards > Does anyone know if V.d. can, or has, transferred to cerana? If so, can > cerana cope with it in the same way that it copes with V.j.? > As far as I remember Dennis Anderson, who did the dna work to determine that V.d is different from V.j, said in Apimondia kongress lecture ( Durban 2001) that V.d did not reproduce offspring normally in Apis cerana. Ari Seppälä :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 01:25:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Varroa destructor and Apis cerana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit According to at least one bee book there are occurrences of Varroa reproducing in worker cells of cerana. David De Jong mentions it in the section on mites he wrote for “Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases. He gives this reference: 1988. Varroa jacobsoni does reproduce in worker cells of Apis cerana in South Korea. Apidologie 19: 103-106. He also mentions serious damage by Varroa jacobsoni to some cerana being reported from India in the past. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:30:18 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: budget boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all > As in beekeeping, we can say that all woodworking is local, That is very true... A good many years ago I attempted to get some boxes made in New Zealand by someone that had similar exacting standards to myself... When it is winter in England it is High summer in NZ and the drying dynamics just don't mix. > When several woods are being milled in the same shop, at the same time, on > the same batch, This was the problem that the intermediate stacking was developed to overcome, it did it's job and the method became a way of life. As it happens Allen mentioned furniture manufacture and it was from a furniture manufacturer that I learned the technique. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:37:35 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Varroa destructor and Apis cerana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen wrote > 1988. Varroa jacobsoni does reproduce in worker cells of Apis cerana in South Korea. Apidologie 19: 103-106. This paper precedes Denis Anderson's work. Denis first presented his paper at Apimondia in Vancouver in 1999. So in 1988 what was called Varroa jacobsoni is now called V. destructor. As for VJ, I have not seen any reproduction in worker cells in cerana. How many worker cells did David de Jong find with offspring in? Bob Harrison wrote >Many researchers (not sure of Anderson's opinion) believe that cerana has a >different juvenile growth hormone with seems to deter varroa from >reproducing in cerana worker brood but only an unproven hypothesis but a >hypothesis I lean to believe (at present time). I know from talking with Denis he has talked about different levels of juvenile hormone being the trigger as to whether the varroa lays eggs or not. Are there different JH's in workers and drones as Bob suggests is the case in cerana? We know that VJ does not lay eggs in Apis mellifera. It has been suggested it has something to do with the level of JH. The secret would be to identify the level of JH at which laying is triggered particularly in AM by VD. Theoretically if you could breed a bee that produces lower levels of the JH then you solve the varroa problem. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:49:19 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: budget boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The posts have detailed the problems that can be found with bee boxes due to the stability of wide softwood planks being affected by the moisture content. UK suppliers stick traditionally to Western Red Cedar - a poor choice in my view as it is too sift to avoid damage at corners from levering with a hive tool - also now expensive. I always wonder if its use started only as a misunderstanding - Langstroth was American and I understand 'cedar' can mean a softwood in US and not necessarily Western Red. So did someone ask sometime what the best wood for hives was and get an answer 'cedar' and misunderstand..... In view of cost and instability in poorly seasoned timber, is there now a practical alternative particle board or chipboard or ply board? My own Deep-Long hives are made in Lithuania in plywood - it is a bit heavy, but the design is aimed at permanent apiaries. Plywood is sufficiently stable for the long sides, stiffened with top battens to house the frame lugs. I would like to consider another material if available. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:35:49 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Brewer's Yeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA " I was really hoping for some takers on this one. Isn't brewer's yeast a key part of pollen substitute?" I know I am taking us sideways ...but I have always believed (corerction will follow) that pollen substitutes need a proportion of real pollen to be effective. Can I ask therefore, if you are a regular or prospective user of pollen subs, do you already trap real pollen for feeding back next spring? If so, could you collect just a bit more and so avoid need to try to concoct some artificial feed that will just do? I have read that bees can collect the same weight of pollen as of honey in a season - and if you have flowering plants giving nectar, u must have pollen sources. Just asking , as in UK bees store adequate pollen under honey in the brood nest (provided of course colonies are left their full set of brood combs unextracted) and artificial feeds here are generally just extra work for nothing. Artificial pollen feeding would also introduce another dependency that the beekeeper could misjudge and so hurt rather than help the colonies. But I do realise that colonies have different needs where the climate is more severe - or where there is a shortage of autumn pollen. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 06:58:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: budget boxes In-Reply-To: <006101c3c48a$25ce16a0$4a8ebc3e@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >In view of cost and instability in poorly seasoned timber, is there now a >practical alternative particle board or chipboard or ply board? Do you have White Pine, or similar? Pine is harder than Cedar, but still easily milled. I am able to buy scrap boards...2' x various widths...several hundred boards on a pallet. I stack the pallets in my honey house, and build supers etc in the winter. Really haven't had much problem with shrinkage due to moisture. White Pine...The King...George?...thought it so excellent for masts, that He sent His scouts over to the Northeast...Maine...to claim the best trees, branding each with His mark....the arrow. Have I got it right? Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:13:35 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ben Smith Subject: Re: budget boxes In-Reply-To: <006101c3c48a$25ce16a0$4a8ebc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On > Behalf Of Christine Gray > > UK suppliers stick traditionally to Western Red Cedar - a poor > choice in my > view as it is too sift to avoid damage at corners from levering > with a hive > tool In my view it is the perfect wood, I have 20 year old hive bodies that have not rotted or warped, this is without any timber treatment! also corner damage is not a problem if you use a hive tool with care, it is a problem if you skimp and use old screwdrivers or chisels. The other plus point is weight, red cedar is much lighter than exterior quality plywood. (Admittedly this is not such a consideration with your hive design.) Ben. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 07:49:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gauthier Jr Calvin J Subject: stinky honey (goldenrod) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Suzanne, Al, Bill and Tim......and ALL, This year I decided not to do a fall harvest because of stinky goldenrod. You are correct in that the taste and color are excellent. But I just can't stand the smell. I work for a company that manufactures sugar cane equipment and sugar is king down here. So I have a tough sell when it comes to any other sweetener. I bring honey to work and when I can't open the honey container because of the smell, it makes it hard to sell. "Your honey smells like that?!?! And you are trying to sell that for how much?" I also find the viscosity to be almost like paste, thick like grease. I have a hard time getting it through my filter. I thought like you Al in that this may have been nature's way of providing me a way to winter over my hives. Thanks for the head's up on storing the honey for a couple of years, heating it up and filtering it warm. That might help with the viscosity problem. P.S. There is an old wife's tale in south Louisiana about the first frost and the goldenrod. When you see the goldenrod blooming fully, not just starting blooming, blazing yellow in the fields, mark your calendar for 6 weeks from that time for your first frost. My dad told my mother that tale and she did not believe him. She marked the calendar and said "we'll see". 6 weeks and 1 day our first frost appeared. My mom said, "I stand corrected." We'll be observing this for the years to come to change this from an old wife's tale to a "rule of thumb" or a guide. Buddy Gauthier Systems Programmer/Analyst - Beekeeper Hobbyist (9 hives) CAMECO® Industries, Inc. - A John Deere Company Thibodaux, LA 70301-1602 Email: GauthierBuddyJ@JohnDeere.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 06:28:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa destructor and Apis cerana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dick & All, Dick said: According to at least one bee book there are occurrences of Varroa reproducing in worker cells of cerana. David De Jong mentions it in the section on mites he wrote for "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases. He gives this reference: 1988. Varroa jacobsoni does reproduce in worker cells of Apis cerana in South Korea. Apidologie 19: 103-106. He also mentions serious damage by Varroa jacobsoni to some cerana being reported from India in the past. With all due respect to David DeJong I write. Did DeJong see varroa D. reproducing in cerana worker cells? Big difference also in his seeing and using the words *reported from India*. The book "Honey Bee Pests, predators and diseases" is a dated book. Back then we were painting varroa with a broad brush. Varroa destructor (which is the subject and title of this post and cerana ) had not been discovered. Hopefully Denis Anderson will separate fact from fiction. Maybe Denis will find out VD does reproduce in worker cells of a certain strain of cerana but the general consensus between researchers I have talked to and read their work say no. Beekeepers taking the China tour came back saying China researchers said varroa j. did not reproduce in cerana worker brood. To be fair what the early researchers saw might have been varroa underwoodi ( which is a slightly smaller species than VJ but is *almost* as wide). Anderson, D.L., R.B. Halliday & G. W. Otis reported in *1997* (Apidologie 27: 461-466) that V. underwoodi was only a parasite of cerana drone brood. Denis Anderson has already made quite a bit of varroa J. research obsolete by his discovery of varroa destructor and now hopefully will be able to seperate the fact from fiction in other areas . The best source today for the compiled research on mites in my opinion is in the book " Mites of the Honey Bee" by Webster & Delaplane. Outdated before being published as far as varroa destructor is concerned( although mentioned on pg. 10, 260-262) the book still remains the best and quickest source of mite information in the world in my opinion . Published by Dadant the book is available through most beekeeping supply houses. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:01:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: budget boxes In-Reply-To: <006101c3c48a$25ce16a0$4a8ebc3e@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Gray wrote: > I always wonder if its use started only as a > misunderstanding - Langstroth was American and I understand 'cedar' can mean > a softwood in US and not necessarily Western Red. So did someone ask > sometime what the best wood for hives was and get an answer 'cedar' and > misunderstand..... Could be white cedar, since it is not aromatic and is dimensionally stable. It addition, it weathers well. I use it for fence posts. Made a cedar strip canoe from it. Nice wood to work. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:18:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Wood for bee boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to say I never understood the use of either Ponderosa Pine or Western Red Cedar for bee equipment. I 'guessed' the use of Ponderosa Pine was because certain principal manufacturers were located in the midst of the growth...and it is not a bad wood, just not superior. I've also guessed that the use of Western Red Cedar was due more to hype than to any superior qualities. IMHO, and it is something I think I am at least slightly qualified to comment on, there is nothing available at a reasonable cost that can beat Eastern White Pine. It is straight grained, lacking in abrasive minerals, easy to dry, and when properly dried can be nailed up to the ends without splitting. Of great importance, it is still readily available in 12" widths, meaning that Langstroth deeps can be well made at a reasonable cost. Around here it is one of the dominant species and it seems that every third farm has a band saw for processing rough cut lumber from their own woodlots. It is so plentiful that the wood lot price did not move at all for almost 20 years, spiked when the tree huggers won the Spotted Owl cases, and then spiked again when the politicians got involved in the availability of softwood from Canada. Still, it is 60% or so lower than any decent hardwood prices. We have only one supplier in the US that comes close to Thorne box quality, and they exclusively use Eastern White Pine. Thorne box quality is just plain over-the-top (and completely unnecessary) for beekeeping, but it is beautiful to look at and shows how committed the English are to providing the best for their bees. I have purchased a lot of new equipment in my time, and still do. I would not think of buying anything but Budget grade, but I know who I am dealing with and get excellent wood that is well milled. The Budget grade I get is easily the same as Select from other dealers. As always, ask around from beekeepers in your area. Don't ask hobbyists, ask commercial beekeepers. They are real friendly and will have good sources. We have a 140 acre woodlot nearby and a 10-year cutting is coming up...yeah for the Spotted Owl, politicians, etc. The last cutting went to Japan! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:24:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm relatively new to beekeeping. I live in N.YC., a temperate climate. When should I feed my bees pollen substitute patties? I was thinking mid-February.Any opinions. John Howe 18 Fort Greene Place Brooklyn, NY 11217 718-858-6891 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:13:41 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Water Based Wood Preservative for Hive Bodies > I've always used a solution Copper Napthanate and water to > soak hive bodies before assembly; however, the wood tends > to cup slightly I make quite a bit of sawdust, and I have found many answers to questions about wood here: http://www.woodweb.com/KnowledgeBase/KBIndex.html#search Here are two "articles" that may be of interest: http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Warp_in_Drying.html http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Cupping_of_resawn_lumber.html One question - do you REALLY need to "soak" the hive components? What if you painted or sprayed the exterior surfaces and edges only? This would certainly cut down or eliminate cupping, as the entire board would not get wet. I paint my woodenware, and some of it, acquired from a retiring beekeeper, dates back to the 1970s. The inside surfaces do not appear to require treatment if woodenware is stored "inside" when not on the hive. jim ("God is Dead" -- Nietzsche "Nietzsche is Dead" -- God) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:12:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Cedar Boxes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good morning: In the U.S., the large bee equipment suppliers generally use fir or white pine. Rossman apiaries sells cyprus boxes, that is rot resistant like cedar, but harder. You can usually buy cedar hive stands. I've seen beautiful, double-walled hives made of cedar in the NW. But, I've never seen a commercial operation use cedar, and I wouldn't either -- too soft, too easy to break, and too expensive. For a hobbiest, who isn't using heavy equipment or always working in a hurry, cedar would be good because of the light weight. However, I've always wondered - I wouldn't think that one would want to use aromatic cedar - has anyone tried? I'd suspect that the bees might leave. My guess is that the wetter climate in the U.K. may be the reason for using cedar. But fir or pine with a coat of paint hold up well. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:34:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Feeding pollen patties I like to feed pollen patties a week or two before the first main pollen is out in my area. Gives the hive a bit of a jump start to the main pollen flow and allows the hive to continual feed during unfavourable weather. I think it makes for healther bees in the spring, and healtheir bees, means harder working bees. After teh first day or so of the bee's has emergance, it is critical for it to get a high diet of protien to fully develop it wings and flight muscles. That is why you have to keep the supplement right overtop of the brood area so the youngins have easy access to it. I would not feed it too early, try to keep it close to your pollen flow. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:08:27 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Varroa destructor and Apis cerana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison " Many researchers (not sure of Anderson's opinion) believe that cerana has a > different juvenile growth hormone which seems to deter varroa from > reproducing in cerana worker brood but only an unproven hypothesis but a > hypothesis I tend to believe (at present time)" Jim usually chips in at this sort of point to say that the chemical composition of the juvenile hormone could be analysed by ........... If there is a chemical difference, and it could be synthasied, migght this not be very interesting indeed? What thinks Jim? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:00:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Feeding pollen patties In-Reply-To: <200312171734.hBHDA0cj022438@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How to stock pollen (harvested in summer) to ensure its preservation during winter ? Hervé Laval, QC, Canada www.emelys.com _________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:17:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: stinky honey (goldenrod) In-Reply-To: <4A90D0B77BE4D411BDCC0002A507D77C0B2E8B7D@e90wwag3.dx.deere.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gauthier Jr Calvin J wrote: > I thought like you Al in that this may have been nature's way of > providing me a way to winter over my hives. OK for the South but a poor overwintering honey for the North and the reason for many of my colony failures when I started keeping bees. Lots on this in the archives. Bill Truesdell bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:12:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Wood for bee boxes In-Reply-To: <005101c3c4b9$6616a5e0$cae9d518@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > We have only one supplier in the US that comes close to Thorne box quality, > and they exclusively use Eastern White Pine. Thorne box quality is just > plain over-the-top (and completely unnecessary) for beekeeping, but it is > beautiful to look at and shows how committed the English are to providing > the best for their bees. Eastern white pine is abundant and fairly inexpensive. Have some growing on our property and more in the adjoining woods. I bought a load of 1x12s (15 years ago at .36 per foot- not board foot) and floored my kitchen with it. Also made many boxes. Beautiful wood. As Michael noted, it was used for masts on sailing ships and, before the revolution, were marked by the King for use on HM ships. Needless to say, the landowners were not happy since, when they could sell them, a tree brought a lot of money, while the King paid nothing. It was not just tea. At the EAS meeting last year, you could walk to a stand of white pine that has been there since the revolution. Drive through it often. The trees grow straight and tall. At one time in my career I was responsible for the upkeep of the USS Constitution in Boston. We never had a problem with white pine for the masts. The largest problem was live oak for the ribs, especially the major bends (knees). Navy personnel went through the South and asked landowners if we could buy their live oaks. It is a long lived tree so there was often some family attachment with the trees. What was wonderful was how many gave the trees to the Navy to help keep up a major piece of American history. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:46:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Cedar Boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/17/03 5:24:41 PM GMT Standard Time, jjbmail@SELWAY.UMT.EDU writes: > However, I've always wondered - I wouldn't think that one would want to use > aromatic cedar - has anyone tried? I'd suspect that the bees might leave. > > My guess is that the wetter climate in the U.K. may be the reason for > using cedar. But fir or pine with a coat of paint hold up well. > >From a Scottish perspective, almost any decent quality wood holds up very well. A coat of decent preservative and any red (heart) wood pine box will give many years of satisfactory service. We still have boxes made by my father in the winter of 1949 in service with very few problems, and some that were second hand when he got his first bees the following spring. White (sap) wood is likely to rot a whole lot quicker, and these require treating with preservative far more often, though hot wax dipping works well and lasts for a very long time. Only boxes we have ever had to scrap because of rot were white wood, bought in 1970, and even then they were getting on for 30 years old before the first ones gave out. Cedar makes a great box, nice and light, but is prone to the rebates breaking out as it is just so much more brittle. It is not actually so soft that normal use of the hive tool is an issue. At a commercial level it is a bit on the expensive side, but quite often cheaper batches of cedar, with some visual defects and the odd knot, become available and make perfectly good boxes which last a lifetime if cared for. I have some plywood ones too, acquired second hand. However, we think of them as too heavy, and even though they are good marine grade ply, they still shed layers at times and begin to break up. I would not use plywood again. All our new boxes are polystyrene, which both the bees and I love. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:39:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL Subject: Re: stinky honey (goldenrod) In-Reply-To: <4A90D0B77BE4D411BDCC0002A507D77C0B2E8B7D@e90wwag3.dx.deere.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gauthier Jr Calvin J wrote: > Suzanne, Al, Bill and Tim......and ALL, > > > Thanks for the head's up on storing the honey for a couple of years, heating it up and filtering it warm. That might help with the viscosity problem. > Actually the 2 yr storage doesn't affect the viscosity - in fact it solidifies to the point you can't shove a fork into it. Slowly heating it to around 120 deg will thin it enough to run through the type of nylon mesh filters used for canning. Once it is well filtered, it does not tend to crystalize. Over time the fragrance and flavor mellow out. You can still distinguish it from your other varieties, but it is much more tolerable. BTW, have you noticed a distinctly different mouthfeel with goldenrod? Mine seemed kind of slippery, maybe a bit waxy. Try a spoonful then try aonther type of honey - I'll bet you feel a difference. I've heard about the viscosity of Heather honey and would be interested in trying it sometime to see how it compares to goldenrod. AL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:01:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: stinky honey (goldenrod) In-Reply-To: <4A90D0B77BE4D411BDCC0002A507D77C0B2E8B7D@e90wwag3.dx.deere .com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > When you see the goldenrod blazing yellow in the fields, mark your > calendar for 6 weeks from that time for your first frost. Here in the northeast, it's 6 weeks after you first hear crickets. In the Champlain Valley, you get your first snow 6 weeks after Mt. Mansfield gets theirs. Must be a 6 week thing...wonder why. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:09:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Wood for bee boxes In-Reply-To: <3FE09C86.8060309@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > I bought a load of >1x12s (15 years ago at .36 per foot- not board foot) Isn't a 1x12...one foot long...both a linear and board foot? Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:44:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Heads-up on Nitrofurans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This appeared Fri Dec 12, 2003 on the Honeybeeworld Forum at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bb/ Thought this might be of interest to all. --- begin quote --- I got a call from an acquaintance from Australia today inquiring about the Canadian situation with Nitrofuran Contaminated honey. I asked him what Nitrofuran was. I suppose that you know just as much as I do on this subject. Any way here are links to the latest on this story. Apparently an Australian television company did a story on this subject the other day and I think that there is a lot of fear mongering going on there. here are some links on the subject http://www.just-food.com/news_detail.asp?art=56194 http://www.worldseafoodmarket.com/NewsDigest/NewsDisplay.jsp?category=Food_Safety&&filename=FOO139.html http://www.worldseafoodmarket.com/NewsDigest/NewsDisplay.jsp?status=7 http://www.infarmation.com.au/news/alternative/03/12/article9587.asp http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/16/1068917675774.html http://www.todaytonight.com.au/stories/802223.html --- end quote --- The previous report I heard, in Edmonton, was that two drums in a containerload to Britain was the extent of it, and that the Argentines had cut off exports until they figure it all out. The story was that just a few Argentine beekeepers were using a home remedy and that it was not widespread. I wonder what to think after this? Anyhow, ANYONE WHO THINKS HE CAN GET AWAY USING A 'SECRET FORMULA', PLEASE THINK AGAIN. It only takes one or two bad apples to ruin exports for an entire nation. This only goes to reinforce what we have seen to be the new reality: Keep you nose clean. Keep separate batches as you extract, mark them clearly, track where they go, and keep good records. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:10:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Feeding pollen patties In-Reply-To: <20031217190049.35232.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >How to stock pollen (harvested in summer) to ensure >its preservation during winter ? Frozen in zip-lock bags Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:30:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard Kogan Subject: Goldenrod Honey The fall honey--mostly goldenrod and aster around here-Taconic Mtns of upstate New York-- smells good and tastes great! People have never complained about the small or taste though it does crystalize very quickly. So I guess all beekeeping is local! Howard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:54:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: new bioterrorism registration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The latest from the NHB's newletter available at http://www.nhb.org/buzz/index.html --- The National Honey Board has prepared and mailed a summary of how these new regulations affect honey businesses. The summary is also available to download or call the Board office to request a copy (http://www.nhb.org/download/bioter/bioterrorism.pdf). It appears that the recordkeeping rule that is part of the Bioterrorism Act will not be finalized by Dec. 12 as expected. The FDA states that it plans to finalize this rule by the end of March 2004. (http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2003/NEW00988.html) In addition, the FDA and U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) signed a memorandum of understanding that allows FDA to commission thousands of CBP officers in ports and other locations to conduct investigations and examinations of imported foods on FDA's behalf. Finally, the FDA and Customs announced there will be an eight-month transition period during which the prior notice requirement (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/%7Epn/cpgpn.html) for imported foods will be phased in. Until March 12, 2004, the FDA and Customs will not refuse admission to food imports simply because the FDA has not received an adequate prior notice for the article of food. The transition period will end on Aug. 12, 2004. Use the FDA's Prior Notice System Interface. ( http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/%7Epn/pnoview.html ) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:53:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: stinky honey (goldenrod) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/17/03 7:48:56 PM GMT Standard Time, lithar@HCIS.NET writes: > I've heard about the viscosity of Heather honey and would be interested > in trying it sometime to see how it compares to goldenrod. > Heather honey of good quality, from Calluna vulgaris, is actually thixotropic. It is a gel, which breaks down upon agitation (special machines for doing this prior extracting it) and eventually goes back to a gel again. Manuka (Leptospremum scoparium) honey from NZ is very similar in this thixotropic character, and of similar appearance, though more bitter in taste. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:08:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Will Crow Subject: Re: stinky honey (goldenrod) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe AL may have inadvertantly submitted the winning slogan to Jim's "Marketing Bored" article. > ......... honey - I'll bet you feel a difference. > Will :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:24:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: Re: Brewer's Yeast I do not yet collect pollen but I do want to as I have heard it is great to feed bees back in the early spring but also to sell. I am at a point that I would rather spend the money on other things though (pecan trees, blueberries, grape vines and more hive bodies/frames). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:41:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Wood for bee boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like the pine boxes as well and agree with everything that has been said. The only thing I have question with is I have never found a wild bee hive in a pine tree. They are always in Laruel Oak. Swarms are in other trees but never stay over a day or two. You think that over the years we have been putting them in Pine Boxes they would prefer Pine. Has anyone ever used Oak for the brood boxes? Michael Housel Orlandobee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:17:16 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Wood for bee boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Cedar has an advantage that no one has yet mentioned... It is very much less prone to rot, as a result it is tolerant of not being treated with preservative as often as is recommended. In UK we do not use paint on hive boxes (although some of the more modern paints would stay on). I am surprised by mention of hive tool damage as I have no experiance of this or ever seen any evidence of it. Michael mentioned oak... twenty years ago there was a small scale hive manufacturer in UK that made National hives in oak and my company made hardwood floors (bottom boards) (oak, beech and various exotic hardwoods that came from the barfitting trade). Murray mentioned high density polystyrene foam... I think the future lies along this course, but we need a few years experiance under our belts before we can really understand the benefits. I have had many attempts with plywood, none of which came up to scratch, a mixture of 50% ply and 50% softwood works well, is inexpensive and is not too heavy. 100% ply does not breath well enough (at least for UK conditions). Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:08:41 -0500 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: Wood for bee boxes/pine tree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Housel wrote: > I like the pine boxes as well and agree with everything that has been > said. The only thing I have question with is I have never found a wild bee > hive in a pine tree. Got one in a local cemetary. Caretakers pointed it out to me. Guess you just have to have a pine tree with a hole in it. Leland Hubbell, Central Ohio :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:19:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Kesler Subject: Observation Hive in Memphis... in January MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am teaching a course, "Biology Through Bees" (http://www.rhodes.edu/biology/kesler/Biologybees.html) starting in January. Part of this course utilizes an observation hive, but I have been out of town and unable to set one up before winter. If you are a beekeeper in the MidSouth from whom I can get two frames of bees and a queen, just name your price. Thank you, David Kesler kesler@rhodes.edu http://wwwr.rhodes.edu/biology/kesler 319-366-2074 until December 28 901-843-3557 after December 29 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:24:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Wood for bee boxes >The only thing I have question with is I have never found a wild bee >hive in a pine tree. They are always in Laruel Oak. Swarms are in other trees >but never stay over a day or two. You think that over the years we have been >putting them in Pine Boxes they would prefer Pine. > Has anyone ever used Oak for the brood boxes? > Michael Housel Orlandobee I havent seen too many pine trees suitable to house a swarm. Where as oak tends to interiour rott, leaving a nice place to hive a swarm. I like pine becasue mostly of its light weight and cost. Oak would be durable, but heavey and $$$. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:37:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Scheduled power outtage at UAlbany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The University at Albany is in the process of rewiring/upgrading its on-campus computing center. There will be a scheduled two-day outtage on Friday, December 26 through Saturday, December 27, after which computing services will be restored. During that time, and for as long as it takes to restore services on Sunday, December 28, there will be no service to UAlbany domains. Most ISPs' mail servers will attempt several deliveries before returning mail to the sender. UAlbany web pages will not be accessible during the shutdown. This includes all access to BEE-L and its archives. All services are projected to be up and running in production for start-of-business Monday, December 29, 2003. Enjoy the holidays! Aaron Morris - thinking visions of sugar plums! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:32:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: For Bob and Murray I have another question about something we recently discussed. I've combined hives in the good eucalyptus locations and have a situation where there is a major flow with lots of bees but it still gets down to freezing an night. I would like to try the method of putting the queen with just a frame or two of brood and pollen/honey in the bottom brood box, and the other brood above. Now Murray says he puts the left over brood on the top of the hive. Due to the temperature at night, wouldn't it be better for me to put the brood just over the excluder? And another question. About how long do you think a young queen would take to fill the bottom brood chamber? In other words, about how long given the circumstances of a good flow, young queen, etc.. could I leave her in the brood chamber (with one or two frames of brood) with an excluder on top, and still not have to worry about swarming? Thanks! Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:53:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Seperating brood above an excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim asks a couple of questions concerning the relatively unusual situation of a major flow, during a time when the temperature gets below freezing at night: 1. "Due to the temperature at night, wouldn't it be better for me to put the brood just over the excluder? (Instead of above an empty but drawn super.) The whole purpose of moving the brood is to give the bees lots of room for storage, while giving the queen lots of room to lay. It seems to me that if you don't put an empty super immediately above the excluder the bees will be unlikely to go into any super above the brood so will crowd the brood nest with nectar. I think you will find that the bees will cluster just fine on the brood regardless of whether it is above an empty super. 2. "About how long do you think a young queen would take to fill the bottom brood chamber?" Many many beekeepers run all summer with a queen limited to 9 frames in a Langstroth deep. If I remember the math, a Langstroth deep frame has approx 12,000 cells. In a 9-frame setup, the queen should have access to 7 frames (with the two end frames plugged). 7 frames times 12,000 is 84,000 cells. If a queen lays 2,000 a day (not likely, but possible) that is 42 days worth! So even if 1/3rd of every frame is used for nectar/pollen, there is still plenty of room! Now, this will only be sufficient if you have a young queen who wants to lay a lot so the bees will move nectar above the excluder to give her plenty of space. If you use a queen just 6-9 months old, she is likely to be laying closer to 1,000 eggs a day than 2,000, so the brood nest will get crowded and swarming is more likely to occur. Hope this helps, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:07:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Seperating brood above an excluder In-Reply-To: <004201c3c63f$e9148020$e6e9d518@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lloyd Spear makes lots of good points. However, there is a down side to confining the queen to the bottom super during heavy nectar flows, such as we get in MT on a good year -- although that's not been a problem last few years. When the queen is confined to a bottom box with 9 or even 10 frames, under conditions of a heavy flow, the forager bees will deposit nectar in any open cell in the bottom box, rushing back to the field to get more. At night the workers move the temp stores up. But, this causes the queen to cease or reduce laying. Thus, the brood nest begins to rapidly shrink - every cell that frees up with an emergent adult gets filled with nectar, and the queen is taking a vacation. We've also seen bees tear down partially drawn comb in other parts of the hive and apparently reuse to wax for capping -- essentially moving it from incomplete cells and reusing to finish off cells with ripened nectar/honey. We've seen this in hundreds of hives, measured it. Real surprise to us when we first saw. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:48:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Seperating brood above an excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Lloyd Spear makes lots of good points. > > However, there is a down side to confining the queen to the bottom > super during heavy nectar flows, such as we get in MT on a good year > -- although that's not been a problem last few years. When I read the question, alarms went off in my mind. My advice is this: If you think this might be a worthwile technique, try it on a few hives first, not all, and wait a year. I gather you are doing just fine managing the way you are. Don't get greedy. Try a few, observe carefully the benefits, and, equally carefully, watch for any unexpected adverse effects over an entire year. Bob and Murray are expert long-time beekeepers and have developed methods that apparently work in their area, under their management. I respect them both, and I'm assuming they developed these methods over years, through trial and error, and that the results of these manipulations are worth the extra work, and the extra stress on them, and on the bees. Having said that, I've tried these techniques and more, but never found anything that beat just putting the bees in a good hive, in a good location, and giving them appropriate amounts of room and -- other than checking for disease and pests and making appropriate treatments when called for -- just letting them go and do their thing. Of course I added supers ahead of expected flows, and IMO, that is the most common error beekeepers make -- not supering or supering late. Super enough, and even a few weeks early (weather permitting) in spring, and many of the other problems go away. At any rate, with minimal mangement, I got decent crops, low expenses, healthy bees: no detectable nosema , undetectable AFB & EFB, few mite problems, and good wintering. (Note: In the special case described, at this time of year, with temperatures oscillating down to freezing, extra supers may *not* be a good idea. Reducing entrances and sealing cracks will result in more honey upstairs, and more honey, period. Bees *will not* store well on comb they cannot occupy most of the time, so, as in comb honey production, heat must be conserved as much as possible when weather is cool, so the bees spread out and occupy the super(s)). I compare opening a hive and moving frames around to open-heart surgery. OHS can be a lifesaver, when necessary, but you don't just do it because you can, because someone else does it, or because you think it might be a good idea. When someone does OHS, hopefully, (s)he is an expert and knows why the procedure is necessary, and exactly how to proceed. All these (IMO) unnatural hive manipulations tend to run counter to what the bees 'think' is required, and, unless done at the right time and with a sensitive hand, result in stress. Stress, beyond a point, can result in disease, queen loss, crop loss, and colony death. It takes a very good beekeeper to know where that point is, and when (s)he is helping, and when (s)he is just damaging or hindering the hive. Granted, our goals are not always run exactly the same direction as those of the bees, but our best management, IMO, takes place when we can just give them a nudge or assistance in the direction we would like to see them go, for example, by adding supers when they could use some, opening and reducing entrances, providing additional ventilation when the temperatures soar, moving them to better pasture, etc. Sure, go ahead, give it a try, but five'll get you ten that you'll decide it is not worth it, especialy under the conditions described. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:04:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Seperating brood above an excluder In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20031219090741.01dab6d0@selway.umt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >When the queen is confined to a bottom box , under >conditions of a heavy flow, the forager bees will deposit nectar in any >open cell in the bottom box, rushing back to the field to get more. >Real surprise to us >when we first saw. I too was amazed by this. One year, trying to stop swarming, I placed medium supers of dark comb on the bottom board of strong colonies. I thought the queen would use it, or the bees would use it for clustering space. Nope! They stored nectar in them. At dandelion flow, I try to remove the bottom hive body of three story colonies, and replace it with a medium...my standard configuration. It is difficult to shake the bees out of the bottom boxes of the strongest colonies without drowning them, from all the nectar stored in the combs...another reason I like unlimited brood nests. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:28:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Seperating brood above an excluder Thanks to all. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:39:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: For Bob and Murray MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/19/03 1:46:42 PM GMT Standard Time, tvaughan@CHARTER.NET writes: > Now Murray says he puts the left over brood on the top > of the hive. Due to the temperature at night, wouldn't it be better for me > to put the brood just over the excluder? First and most important, I would NEVER presume to know enough about just what the circumstances are in your area at this time with the information given already. I just don't know enough about what is going on. My decision making on this manoeuver (sp?) is stricty based on the circumstance in play at the time. Particularly the rate of laying of the queen. It is a system I use in the spring/early summer expansion phase, and at no other time of year. We can get down to zero at the time during the night, but rarely, however nurse bees do not leave the brood unattended, only redistributing themselves as the balance of brood developes in favour of the new nest in the bottom box. I suspect it is not likely to be particulary beneficial on a winter eucalypt flow. And another question. About how > long do you think a young queen would take to fill the bottom brood > chamber? In our spring build up, provided the colony was covering the whole bottom box, we find the operation requires repeating just about every three weeks. Touched on elsewhere is the tendency of the bees to dump nectar in the free space for handling later, but they quickly move this upstairs apart from the normal stores arc, so long as the queen is reasonably vigourous. I don't consider it much of a problem, as we rarely shake bees off the combs anyway, and there is little need to examine that box in any depth until it contains a relatively mature broodnest. Additionally, Lloyd mentioned having a super immediately above the excluder, between the new nest and the old. We do this too. For some reason it helps the system to work better. Murray :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:20:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: For Bob and Murray MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tim & All, I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish. I believe you are in northern California. Increase brood production or raise a queen up. Our bees in California did not start brooding up last year until the days started getting longer no matter how we tried to stimulate the bees with feeding. Plenty of fresh pollen were in the hives. The California beekeepers say feeding pollen paddies before the days start getting longer is a waste of time and money. Could be trying to get the bees to brood up and raise a queen also. Dunno! In warm weather in Florida we can trick the bees into brooding up many times but certain times of the year they simply store syrup and the queens do not lay eggs. The time of year (late December) and the cold nights I doubt you are going to be able to convince the bees spring has sprung but I could be wrong and maybe a California beekeeper will share his/her experience. Murray outlined the procedure he uses and I have done the same but I have not used the method with the type of night temps you are talking about. I can not speak for Murray but the only time I let bees raise their own queens is after swarming or supercedure. I either use queens from a queen breeder, queens I raised from cells I grafted and mated or if pressed for time cells grafted by me and finished in a finisher colony. Putting brood up to prevent swarming for the bees to care for and putting the queen down with enough unsealed brood to keep bees around her and giving her plenty of comb to lay in is a method which my grandpa used. The method Murray described is a variation of the "Demaree" method named after George Demaree who first described the process in an article in the American Bee journal in 1884 (with an updated version in 1892).. When the the bees emerge in the moved up brood comb the bees fill the cells above with nectar. The problem is today that once a chemical strip has been used in the brood chamber for a time (10 years plus) in many U.S. operations using the deep brood comb for honey storage is a risky business. Especially if coumaphos has been used as high amounts of coumaphos is being detected in beeswax in brood comb in hives which have had coumaphos used for several years (Jeff Pettis , Beltsville Bee Lab). Bees today do not always do what is expected of them. In below freezing weather as you describe the bees might move up through the excluder to join the cluster above and leave the queen stranded below. I hope I have helped you understand the method better. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:28:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Seperating brood above an excluder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry B. wrote: >When the queen is confined to a bottom box , under >conditions of a heavy flow, the forager bees will deposit nectar in any >open cell in the bottom box, rushing back to the field to get more. >Real surprise to us >when we first saw. Mike said: I too was amazed by this. One year, trying to stop swarming, I placed medium supers of dark comb on the bottom board of strong colonies. I thought the queen would use it, or the bees would use it for clustering space. Nope! They stored nectar in them. The way to stop the above is to change the location of the entrance. I learned about changing the entrance from Dr. Farrar. You do not want the movement of nectar to be right through the nursery! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 12:23:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: For Bob and Murray Where I am, the average rainfall according to weather.com during the 180 days of May through October only averages .88 of an inch. But from December to April, there is lots of nectar. My problem in the past is that the bees couldn't take advangage of most of this due to numbers, but I have solved it by combining hives. I'm already harvesting from the eucalyptus locations, and I've recently re-queened so I'm optimistic about hive strength this season. The two other management problems that I have are very early swarming, as in Feb-March, and the bees moving up. I hope that the new queens will help with the swarming problems, but I thought I'd try to keep them down using excluders, and since crowding contributes to swarming, I was thinking Murrays method may help. But I plan on doing what was suggested and do it with just a few at first. Just something else to throw out, the beekeeper I worked for briefly in 1983 used to say that the mustard caused the bees to swarm. The hills here are covered with it early in the year, and whether it's just coincidence or something about the abundance and quality of the pollen, I don't know. Thanks again Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:10:39 -0500 Reply-To: michael palmer Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: michael palmer Subject: Re: For Bob and Murray MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the beekeeper I worked for briefly in > 1983 used to say that the mustard caused the bees to swarm. The hills here > are covered with it early in the year, That's what dandelion does here. The bees put the nectar in the broodnest during build up. Adding supers earlier than needed seems to help. Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 00:14:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Old world to New world In-Reply-To: <17.407afd76.2d11f059@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suppose from now it will be Hi, rather than Bonjour! Having made and survived the packing up + move from France to Manitoba, Canada, one recurring phrase now has a little more consequence for me. "All beekeeping is local" This was impressed upon me during a visit into a bee wintering building several days ago, where a barrowful of dead bees were collected. Only having seen such a collection after acute pesticide poisoning incidences, it was "reassuring" to hear the comment that quantities present in the communal graveyard was no less nor no more that expected. To be truthful, I have seen apicultural operations hibernating in Canadian winter conditions before. What was rather sobering was the thought that this climate was now my operating arena. Previous techniques, problems and familiar materials seemed to melt away as do pound notes in a British pub. All this is to say and warn Bee - L occupants that there may be a flush of "When I did this to get this to happen - why didn't it work?". "Archives my boy, archives!!!!!!!!" Yes, Allen, promise. Glad to be back, Regards, Peter Now located: Darlingford, Central south Manitoba, 20 km north of US frontier, where it is rather chilly, contrary to what the locals say. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:24:21 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: For Bob and Murray MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim & all > used to say that the mustard caused the bees to swarm Not so much the fact that it is mustard, more a feature of quantity of pollen and nectar produced. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:46:54 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Maths and strong laying queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For a normal Langstroth Deep with available frame area of 8 1/8" x16 5/8" and 22.7 cells per sq. inch, the total cells will be 8 1/8 x 16 5/8 x 22.7 cells/sq in. x10 frames x 2 sides per frame =61325. If the queen was laying at 2000 eggs per day and allowing a 23 day brood cycle (21 days + 2 days for cell cleaning), the required cells would be 46000, leaving only 15325 cells for pollen and honey storage, close to brood , drone brood and the odd bit of damaged comb. Perhaps not an over generous surplus of space. However a continuous laying average of 2000 eggs per day would be considered a bit high for our British conditions, perhaps not for Continental climates. Alan Riach Edinburgh :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:55:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: re [BEE-L] Bob and Murray MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mustard is in the same family as Canola. Enormous honey crops come from it in Western Canada. It We put 5 medium supers on when the Canola starts blooming and they are usually filled within three weeks. It might be worthwhile supering when the mustard starts to bloom. Best regards Donald Aitken > the beekeeper I worked for briefly in 1983 used to say that the mustard caused the >bees to swarm. The hills here are covered with it early in the year, > > That's what dandelion does here. The bees put the nectar in the broodnest > during build up. Adding supers earlier than needed seems to help --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.554 / Virus Database: 346 - Release Date: 20/12/2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:17:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Maths and strong laying queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan said: the required cells would be 46000, leaving only 15325 cells for pollen and honey storage, close to brood , drone brood and the odd bit of damaged comb. Perhaps not an over generous surplus of space. The above figures address the amount of cells needed to get maximum egg laying *if* the queen were laying 2000 eggs per day when confined to a single box.. The reality of the issue is in my opinion one of congestion rather than number of eggs. With increased care one can keep a queen confined to a single box and get a decent hive of bees in our area with the addition of honey supers but the problem lies in the 2-3 weeks before supers are added. Also you can not get enough honey stored *and* young bees produced for the bees to survive a severe Missouri winter in one box. I have wintered hives in a single deep (not over a strong hive) in a mild winter. In Missouri we have got what we call "Blackberry winter" which is a cold week around the time the Blackberries bloom. Most years the queens shut down egg laying for a week. We have never been able to figure out why as the night temps and day temps are similar to several weeks earlier when she continued to lay eggs. Comments? Congestion is greatly reduced when the queen shuts down egg laying due to congestion and not being able to maintain the proper config for the brood nest. I would not choose a breeder queen which is so prolific as to do a pattern in times of intense nectar coming in which is spotty and random instead of choosing a tight pattern no matter how many eggs per day she laid. I myself reduce many hives into singles in early spring but when short intense minor flows are liable to happen I like to add a second brood box to keep the bees "out of the trees" *and* prevent the stopping of egg laying due to lack of cells for the queen to lay in. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:06:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Maths and strong laying queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > For a normal Langstroth Deep with available frame area of 8 1/8" x16 > 5/8" and 22.7 cells per sq. inch, Not to be too picky, but that number seemed odd to me, so I looked it up on the chart at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/cellcount.htm Looking down the 'cells per square inch' column, I see that 22.7 lines up with a cell diameter of just over 5.7. Proceding to the next page: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/cellcountres.htm, and considering your location, I deduce the odds are good that you are using Thorne foundation. Unless your bees are huge, your foundation appears to be at the extreme high end of the range manufactured, and IMO, is suitable for extracting super comb, but far from optimal for brood purposes for several reasons: One is theoretical: By going to a more standard 5.3mm or 5.4mm, you would get about 10% more brood in the same area, and by going to Pierco at 5.25, almost 20% more. That 5.25mm size is much closer to the median size of cell that my worldwide network of observers reported back to me as natural for apis mellifera on feral comb. The theoretical advantage is that, on more normal sized cells, the brood is concentrated in a smaller volume and easier to cover in cool weather. The other is empirical: Adony and I did an experiment where package bees were installed on bare foundation in early spring in Alberta, and fed. The bees on Pierco foundation outperformed those on larger cell foundation (5.4mm) by a very significant margin. We did not compare to anything smaller than 5.25, since we did not have anything of that sort at the time, (and, for that matter, I am somewhat doubtful about how unselected bees will, on average, perform on any size smaller than about 5.1mm). > If the queen was laying at 2000 eggs per day and allowing a 23 day > brood cycle (21 days + 2 days for cell cleaning), the required cells > would be 46000, leaving only 15325 cells for pollen and honey > storage, close to brood , drone brood and the odd bit of damaged > comb. Perhaps not an over generous surplus of space. > However a continuous laying average of 2000 eggs per day would be > considered a bit high for our British conditions, perhaps not for > Continental climates. This is an interesting topic. Seely reported egg laying levels that I cannot say that I have ever observed in 30+ years. Other beekeepers have reported varying levels. Queens often take a break in egg laying for various reasons. As you suggest, a beekeeper needs to know what size of brood nest suits his or her region. Although huge populations can be a worthwhile goal, many beekeepers do very nicely while restricting *brood rearing* a bit. There is no scientific proof that restricting *egg laying* results in swarming, but there is a strong and somewhat supported understanding that a crowded brood chamber can result in swarms. At any rate, reducing your cell size to 5.3mm would be like adding an extra frame into a single brood chamber hive, and going to 5.2mm foundation would be like adding 2 more frames. These observations may explain why a standard single was designed to be an adequate brood chamber for a good queen, but was later found to be a bit restrictive -- after the size of brood cells was increased by 10 and even 20% from the original 5.1, then 5.2 that Root chose when first introducing commercially made wax foundation. (Thanks to Dee for bring these facts to our attention). allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:00:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: # of cells in a frame/room for brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan politely corrected my fallacious memory "For a normal Langstroth Deep with available frame area of 8 1/8" x16 5/8" and 22.7 cells per sq. inch, the total cells will be 8 1/8 x 16 5/8 x 22.7 cells/sq in. x10 frames x 2 sides per frame =61325." Curious matter...Alan's comments made me go measure some undrawn foundation. It turns out I am using foundation with an area of only 7 15/16 x 16 9/16 (apologies to those on a metric system). Much more important, once the thickness of the cell wall is taken into account, I only get 14 cells a sq. inch. (Compared to Alan's 23!) I checked measurements many times! Given the 23 day brood cycle, this leads little extra room whether 9 or 10 frames are used. I have never understood how beekeepers can limit the brood nest to 1 deep and this detailed check reinforces my lack of understanding. I admire those who do so, as there are lots of advantages to the beekeeper, but don't understand how it is possible. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:21:45 -0600 Reply-To: davehamilton@alltel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DaveHamilton Subject: Re: Maths and strong laying queens In-Reply-To: <3FE5882E.8090706@which.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your forgetting each day some eggs hatch, some eggs die >If the queen was laying at 2000 eggs per day and allowing a 23 day >brood cycle (21 days + 2 days for cell cleaning), the required >cells would be 46000 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 12/11/2003 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:33:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Christmas postcard Here is my Christmas postcard to the list. This is a nice eucalyptus location by an avocado farmer. The avo farmers are glad for the bees (they tell me bees double their crop), and they use very little in the way of pesticides, so you can see why I'm smiling. http://www.pbase.com/image/24330463 Merry Christmas!! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:36:29 -0500 Reply-To: DanJan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DanJan Subject: honey use for peanut brittle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a recipe for peanut brittle that calls for water, corn syrup and sugar in a 1 : 4 : 8 ratio. and boiling to hard crack stage I have tried to substitute honey for part of the corn syrup and always end up with a sticky brittle. Can any one give me advice on how to make a hard crack (293 degrees F)candy utilizing honey. Dan Veilleux In the mountains of North Carolina :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:45:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Stinnett Subject: Dead Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got my first stand of bees this past spring. A large swarm from a local beekeeper here in Western North Carolina. During early September when I opened the hive I noticed a substantial loss of bees in the hive. I also noticed some empty queen cells. There was also some capped brood there so I was hoping all would be ok. After having about a week of cold (25 degrees is cold to me) weather today it warmed up to 50. Perfect day to check the bees. I could tell they were dead before I opened the hive up. I found where maybe 10 queen cells had been raised. I think that this swarm I got had an old queen. That 1 or possibly more of the new queen cells swarmed late in the year leaving me with the old queen and few bees. Then during the cold weather the bees could not produce enough heat to keep the large hive warm. Does this sound reasonable? Or could there be another problem? Also, I now have a brood box that is half full of honey and pollen and about 14-16 frames of honey. What do I do with this? I cleaned the dead bees out, can I just put a new queen and package in here next spring? Or should I clean it all out and let them start with new foundation? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:46:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: Mead Honey Sources I am interested in varietal honeys for mead making (and to sell the rest that my local meadmakers don't want). Anyone know of a good source for unique stuff? I have seen Glorybee catalog and like there variety but in quatity it would cost me just over $2/# when shipped from OR to NC. Any favorite kinds for mead? I am interested in at least 12# and would get up to a 5 gallon bucket (60# if I'm correct). Thank you, Joe :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:08:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul S LeRoy Subject: Regretfully MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii To all friends and correspondents of Paul S. LeRoy Paul S. LeRoy passed away on December 18, 2003 after a long battle with cancer. I take this opportunity to thank all of you for all the great fellowship you shared with my father over the years. He enjoyed the bees and the discussions he had with you. I am closing his email account effective with this message. Warm regards and best wishes to you all, Steve LeRoy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:55:05 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: # of cells in a frame/room for brood In-Reply-To: <006a01c3c7e3$f0390c40$aae9d518@newdell> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Lloyd, >Given the 23 day brood cycle, this leads little extra room whether 9 or 10 >frames are used. I have never understood how beekeepers can limit the brood >nest to 1 deep and this detailed check reinforces my lack of understanding. >I admire those who do so, as there are lots of advantages to the beekeeper, >but don't understand how it is possible. > A lot of the problem has to do with location. In some areas you cannot keep a queen in a single box without a great deal of extra attention. In South Central Alaska a single brood chamber will virtually always produce a swarm, even with a new queen. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::