From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:29:47 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0448749076 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZem011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0312D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 176931 Lines: 3883 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:33:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: # of cells in a frame/room for brood Managed a yard in singles this past year. Produced more than doubles, mostly becasue of the extra box of honey extracted rather than left for winter. The singles are being wintered inside. I found that the brood present was the SAME between the doubles and the singles. The differece was that the doubles had its brood between both chambers with lots of pollen and honey available. The singles used most of the chamber for brood rearing, and the rest for pollen stores. I was very aware of colony food stores in my singles when I pulled off my last supers,made sure to have the feed there right away. Besides the fact that I winter my doubles outside, I feel that managing my hives in doubles was easier and more forgiving that managing in singles. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:43:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Dead Bees Sound to me that your queen failed or was superceeded, and the hive failed to requeen itself. Your hive likely went into winter queenless, or with a poor layer and resulted in a unavoidable death. A hive must go into winter with a good queen and lots of young, and the bees you were seeing were the old dying off while in cluster. You can hive right into that colony next year, it will have lots of resources for your new hive to use. BUT check the equipment for disease first. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:32:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Singles, Doubles, No excluder? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Managed a yard in singles this past year. Produced more than > doubles, mostly because of the extra box of honey extracted rather > than left for winter. That is our experience, too. As long as sugar is far cheaper than honey, this practice makes sense. > ...the brood present was the SAME between the doubles and the > singles. The difference was that the doubles had its brood between > both chambers with lots of pollen and honey available. The singles > used most of the chamber for brood rearing, and the rest for pollen > stores. We found the brood area to be comparable, too. As you note, timing for singles is much more critical than when running doubles, and the sugar must be fed early enough to allow the bees to process and store it properly. Single brood chambers have good points and bad points. For one thing, disease control is much easier, since 1.) there is only one box to inspect, 2.) the bees clean problem cells promptly and don't just move over a few frames, ignoring diseased cells as they often do in doubles, 3.) under many situations, you get more honey, and 4.) That honey is much easier to remove. If you have good brood comb, properly spaced, most queens will have more than enough room in a single, but if you use very large cell foundation (5.7mm), have poor combs, and/or space wider than 1-3/8" and/or also have some bowed combs, singles may not work well. Moreover, using single brood chambers, supering techniques may be a bit more subtle than where double broods are used, or where unrestricted brood is permitted. Bees store best within hive regions where the colony naturally maintains continuous warmth, and where individuals can thus comfortably maintain continuous presence during the flow. Continuous warmth is always maintained near where brood is being raised, and, in climactic regions where weather gets cool periodically during the flow season, the bees often retreat from at least some of the supers to the brood area, particularly if 1.) the weather cools 2.) the hive is too well ventilated, 3.) there is no flow activity to stimulate the bees to generate heat, and 4.) the hive is not at full strength. They can be slow to return to their former ouposts in distant supers, and may stay closer to the brood area after a cold snap, unless stimulated by hot weather and a strong flow. People often comment that bees do not cap well early in the season. A few such retreats, or a hint from the weather that they may have to do so, and they are stimulated to cap. Since, in singles, the brood is concentrated in the very bottom box, the bees may abandon the supers more often and for longer than in the case where double brood chambers are used, or where the queen is allowed the run of the whole hive. This may affect their storing in a season or region with intermittent flows, but will have little effect in a heavy flow condition. Adjusting ventilation and number of supers may also compensate for this factor. In comb honey production in the North, heat conservation is a key management trick, and we always ran single broods with as few supers as we could, and still contain all the bees. (The above paragraphs explain about half the debate over whether queen excluders are honey excluders, and why it is never resolved. There are too many interracting factors, and people like to oversimplify.) > I was very aware of colony food stores in my singles when I > pulled off my last supers,made sure to have the feed there right away. Very wise; that is where many of us fall down. When we remove the supers, we will also be removing most of the feed on the hive, and a full box of brood uses lots of feed. A day or two of poor flying weather and/or a dearth, arriving right after pulling the seconds, can kill or severely damage single hives unless a second with feed is placed on at the time of pulling, or unless a feeder is placed on the hive at that time -- or both. > Besides the fact that I winter my doubles outside, I feel that > managing > my hives in doubles was easier and more forgiving that managing in > singles. That's what we concluded, but singles can return up to $50 more per hive, net profit, at current prices. That's worth a little extra work IMO. In cases where brood boxes are in short supply, this can mean being able to run more hives, too. With package bees the management is dead simple, too. Like shooting fish in a barrel. We wintered our singles outside, and found the same success rate as doubles, but maybe that was because we converted the singles to doubles and fed in early September, as soon as the flows finished. Some in our Northern climate winter singles outside with good success, but we never had success with them on the ground. When we raised the cluster up, by making the hives into doubles, we had no more problems. That also reduced our spring work and fears of spring starvation. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:05:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Conditioned bees, LIDAR, and landmines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good morning: Some of you have asked for more information about our conditioning of bees to find things like landmines, and our use of lasers (LIDAR) to locate and track bees. This morning, the Mine Action Information Center at James Madison University posted on line their January issue of the Journal of Mine Action. A glossy, hardcopy version of the journal will be issued in January. However, the on-line version is now available at http://maic.jmu.edu/journal/7.3/focus/bromenshenk/bromenshenk.htm Some of you may be surprised at what bees can do. Cheers Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:46:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: American Bee Research Papers - at Am. Honey Producers Meeting, S.A., TX Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all: It isn't apparent to me that people know that the Bee Research meetings for 2004 will be held Friday afternoon and Saturday morning in conjunction with the American Honey Producers meeting in San Antonio, TX. Last I heard, 20+ papers were scheduled to be presented. See you in TX. Best wishes for the holidays. JErry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:43:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: beekeeping course, Jan 24, Bozeman, MT Comments: cc: Judy.Fredenberg@mso.umt.edu, triltd@aol.com, spangler@montana.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Beekeeping meeting set for Jan. 24 BOZEMAN - Montana State University and the Montana Department of Agriculture will present a beginning beekeeping workshop on Jan. 24 at MSU. New beekeepers, including youth, can learn how to get started, how to overwinter hives and how to control mites, among other topics. The program also includes honey tasting and door prizes. Presenters include Jerry Bromenshenk, who leads a honey bee research program at the University of Montana and will teach the basics of honey bee biology; Dick Molenda of Western Bee Supplies in Polson, who will demonstrate beekeeping equipment and discuss suitable locations for hives; Ron Barnett of Barnett Apiaries in Belgrade, who will discuss how to set up a packaged colony and the management of a bee colony throughout the year; and Patty Denke of the Montana Department of Agriculture. Denke, who is the state entomologist and responsible for the apiary program in Montana, will cover pests, diseases and apiary regulations. The cost, which includes lunch, is $15 for the first registrant, and $5 per additional family member. Registration is due by Jan. 16, and is limited to 40 people. To print out a registration form or for more information visit ag.montana.edu /plantgrowth /beekeepingworkshop.htm or call David Baumbauer, director of the MSU Plant Growth Center at (406) 994-2231, baumbauer@montana.edu. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:04:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Rempel Subject: Queen cell ventilation I've wondered for long time about how much air or ventilation queen cells require, when holding them in an incubator or container. The archives did't provide on this detail, and I was wondering if any one knows or knows of any literature on this. The book THE HIVE AND THE HONEYBEE, and QUEEN REARING by H. Laidlaw didn't cover this. Briefly, one of my questions is how long can cells be stored in a closed container or incubator before needing, if needed oxygen? Any information on this would be appreciated. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 00:15:40 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: honey use for peanut brittle I'm assuming that the goal is to make peanut brittle for Christmas. Therefore, this is longer than some might like in the interest of being complete. But thanks for asking the question - I got more candy out of the deal! My wife is a very serious baker/cook, and I asked her your question. She laughed her "Glendna, The Good Witch of the North" laugh, and said: Here, watch. Its not that hard. >From here on, the words are hers, not mine. (She took out a copper candy pot, which has a pouring spout, and poured in a cup of sugar, 1/2 cup of honey, and 1/2 cup of water. She set it on low heat, and slid a candy thermomemter onto the pan.) For candy in general, 293 F is just not hot enough for a real "brittle". "Hard Crack" only just starts at 290 F. For a (non-honey) peanut brittle , I'd go for at least 300 F. Soft Crack is 270 - 290 F Hard Crack is 290 - 310 F The "soft ball/hard ball/soft crack"/"hard crack" terms were used in candy making before thermometers were common. You drip some of the hot candy into icewater, and then compress the cooled candy between your fingers, and break the candy with your fingers. How the candy acts is where the terms came from. (At this point, the mixture started to foam and headed towards boiling over. She turned down the heat and lifted the pan from the burner to cool it a bit.) If you are using honey: First, you have to go well into the 300-310 F range. Only stay there for a minute or so, no more. A maximum of 293 F just won't cut it with honey - you will get "sticky, soft" candy rather than true hard candy. (In general, if you get "sticky" candy, you needed a higher temperature.) Second, you will find yourself heating the mixture for a loooong time to attain a true hard crack temperature, as there is much more water in honey than one would have in the usual sugar mixture one would prepare for candy. (This may also explain the need for a temperature over 300 F.) Third, you need a low-humidity day or a industrial-strength dehumidifier to dry out the kitchen. Honey will reabsorb moisture from the air on a damp day even while you are heating it. If that happens, you will never stop evaporating water from the mixture, and you will caramelize some of it before you get the water out of all of it. If you are going to make candy often, you really need a good kitchen wall thermometer and hygrometer, as "room conditions" can make or break you. Last, if you are going to use honey, use 100% honey rather than a mix of corn syrup and honey. You want a consistent reaction to the heat, and a mix of corn syrup and honey may not react consistently. The corn syrup gives off water faster, and will not try to reabsorb as much water as quickly as the honey. (She heated the mixture up to 305 or so, and then added a tablespoon of butter and about 1/2 cup of toasted seasame seeds, stirred, and then poured it out onto a Sil-Pat in a half-sheet tray to cool. [A Sil-Pat is a slicone pad made in France for bakers, and a "half-sheet tray" is the size of the largest cookie tray that fits in a normal home oven.] The mix just about covered the tray.) All of the above took 40 minutes. When the candy was cool, it was clearly not sticky, and made loud sounds when broken. The mouth feel was much like peanut brittle. She also said: The baking soda is important to peanut brittle to make the candy form air holes. This candy has no air holes, and should be thinner than peanut brittle, so I did not use and baking soda. Thus spoke the woman who was only happy with the kitchen when it was expanded to occupy half the ground floor. I get to eat what she cooks, so she can have as many square feet as she wants. jim (Who made "The Quiche Of Death" last week) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:54:57 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: Sucrose Octanoate Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk Comments: cc: akbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, beekeeping@yahoogroups.com, FloridaBeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, NZBkprs@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All I read a couple of interesting articles in the ABJ recently about Sucrose Octanoate which will be on sale by Dadant in 2004. I contacted Dadant and they advised me that this product will be in their 2004 Catalogue. I asked them if it will be available from Thornes in the UK but they told me that they were not sure at this stage. I sent in an abstract of the comments made in the ABJ to 'An Beachaire' the monthly journal of The Federation of Irish Beekeeping associations, and I show below the salient details as published in the ABJ. I have ABJ permission to reproduce this article. 'If you are a gardener, then you have probably heard of products to kill mites on vegetable plants, fruit trees, etc. called insecticidal soaps. Sucrose Octanoate Ester is a specially formulated insecticidal soap that is made up of the sugar sucrose and fatty acids designed to kill varroa mites. Because the product is made up of sugar and soap, the EPA quickly approved it and made it exempt from tolerance levels on all food crops. All other EPA-approved varroacides, because they are made of poisonous toxic materials, have limits on how much can be tolerated in food, like honey. Sucrose Octanoate does not have a limit because it is not poisonous or toxic as are these other products. Is the product perfect? It does have one drawback for those having large numbers of colonies. Sucrose Octanoate is applied as a liquid spray and must come in contact with varroa mites to be effective. It kills by rapidly suffocating the varroa mites or dissolving the waxy coating that protects them from drying out. All your bees have to be sprayed with the product, and those mites on those bees sprayed die quickly. The material is sprayed on the bees. I used a garden type pump up sprayer with the nozzle set on the finest mist setting when I tested the product. Each frame must be removed and all bees sprayed in order to get contact with those mites on the bees. It is suggested that you do this once a week for three weeks in order to get the mites protected in the sealed cells. My observation was that the bees, of course get all wet and messy looking, but in a couple of hours they are all dry and back to normal. This varroacide kills approximately 68% of total mites contacted in the first spray. So, after three sprays, assuming complete coverage, 99% of mites should be dead. The excellent news is that this material sailed through EPA because it is non-toxic. You won't be poisoned from it because it is simply a special formulation of sucrose (sugar) and a fatty acid (soap). It won't contaminate honey, beeswax, or anything else. The important take-home message is that this is the first class of EPA-approved varroacides that is safe to use on or around honey bees, beeswax, honey, and most importantly you.' Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 06:49:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Queen cell ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris asks: Briefly, one of my questions is how long can cells be stored in a closed container or incubator before needing, if needed oxygen? All egg incubators have got ventilation holes which (when used) in our experience have provided enough ventilation. We never keep queen cells in an air tight container. Keeping the cells warm while transporting and installing is important. Many use old egg cartons but I like to use a styrofoam box with a cloth rag to keep the cells from rolling around. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:23:43 -0500 Reply-To: graham dawson Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: graham dawson Subject: Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have pollen I trapped last year. What is the best way to feed this = back yo my bees. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:09:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Conditioned bees, LIDAR, and landmines That is a stunning article. One hopes that some of the huge amounts of money currently going into cleaning up landmines in places like Angola will go to local field testing. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:16:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Preparing Pollen Patties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham asked "I have pollen I trapped last year. What is the best way to feed this back yo my bees." FIRST AND FOREMOST...if you had AFB in the hives you collected from, or if you prophylacticly treated with Terra. for AFB, don't feed the pollen back. The only possible exception to this would be if you used a Sundance trap to collect the pollen. Even then it would be risky. More about this later. For 8 lbs. of patty mix, use 1 quart of syrup (more later) and 6 lbs. of pollen. For 4 lbs. of patty mix use 2 cups of syrup and 3 lbs of pollen. For 34 lbs of patty mix use 1 gallon of syrup and 24 lbs. of pollen. The syrup can be either a 1:1 mix of sugar and water (portions either by weight or volume), or 100% 55 Corn Syrup. Syrup should be no warmer than 100 degrees. If necessary, adjust mix by adding more pollen so that the mix is about the consistency of dough. Use of a dough mixer will save a lot of muscle ache. Form the patties into cakes about 8" in diameter. Wrap each patty in wax paper and freeze. About 30 days before natural pollen collection in your area start feeding pollen (and syrup if honey stores are light). Once you start, the bees will commence brood rearing big time and you must continue until there is good pollen coming in from natural sources. If you stop too soon you will have undeveloped bees, and possibly dead larvae. The AFB contamination fear is that the bees will try to pull scale from cells and some will drop into the pollen, thus contaminating it. If you treat prophylacticly with Terra., you don't know if you have AFB or not, so you should assume you DO have it. The Sundance trap has a board above the pollen drawer that acts as a collection point for hive debris. Theoretically, this could include AFB scale. My advice, as always, is don't treat for AFB with Terra. Burn when you see it, even if it means burning everything and starting over. Good luck with feeding pollen. It is one of the best, and least appreciated, management practices. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 06:09:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Bits and Pieces MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following two messages, as submitted, included long quotes of previous articles and were edited by a moderator. Please do not quote complete previous articles. --- I'm a homebrewer and a beekeeper, and I've tried fresh used brewer's yeast as bee feed supplement. I set it out in pans and no bee would go near it, even if it was sweetened with sugar-water. Perhaps their avoidance was due to the hop residue in the yeast; it's nasty (at least to me, but you know bees .) Walter Weller --- Comment, Jerry -- You expressed concern about using aromatic red cedar for bee boxes. Here in the southeast, where red cedar is plentiful, every hollow cedar tree is full of bees. They seem to like the odor. I've used red cedar lumber for boxes, but it's too dimensionally unstable to be much good (moisture content). The bees seemed happy with it, though. Walter Weller --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:29:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Each frame must be removed and all bees sprayed in order to get > contact with those mites on the bees. It is suggested that you do > this once a week for three weeks in order to get the mites > protected in the sealed cells. This method has a lot of people excited, and it may work in some areas where it is warm all year, but I suspect that in the North, where I live, it will be of limited usefulness for reasons detailed below. One of my main concerns is that, if done in the fall, after brood has hatched, such extreme and repeated manipulation of the hives, even without the spraying, would result in at least 50% subsequent losses over winter. > This varroacide kills approximately 68% of total mites contacted in > the first spray. So, after three sprays, assuming complete coverage, > 99% of mites should be dead. I don't get the same result when I do the numbers. Maybe I'm missing something, so please correct me if I am. Here are my calculations: If the treatment begins when the brood rearing is 100% over for the year, and assuming that each treatment kills 68% of the mites, there will be (100%-68%)=32% left alive each time. For three treatments, we calculate thus: 100%*0.32*0.32*0.32 = 3.3% left. Depending on original levels, that may not be too bad, but that is not 99%, and, besides, then half or more of the hives die over winter from the aftereffects of manipulation late in the season... We must also consider that, at our latitude, in the fall, after the brood rearing ceases, the weather is probably not warm enough over three weeks to remove all the combs and wet the bees safely. Moreover, when we do have a warm spell, the warm part of the day can be very short, and there is not much time to accomplish much if more than a few hives must be treated. If the treatment is done in late spring or summer, when there is normal brood rearing and the bees can stand the man-handling, we can assume that, say, 50% of the mites would be hidden in the brood and thus protected each time, so the efficacy would be 68%/2 each time, or 34%. If a 34% treatment is repeated three times, then, since 66% remain each time, it seems that 100%*0.66*0.66*0.66 = 29% of the total remain after treatment. In some cases, that may be a sufficient reduction, but, from the description, it seems to me to be an awful lot of work and expense to achieve that small a result. Maybe I'm missing something, but for my region, I think that it would be a lot of work for small results. This process may have application for beekeepers with a few hives and lots of time to play with the bees, and it is safe for the beekeeper. That is good. However, for the Northern commercial beekeeper, it seems to me that something a bit more effective, a lot quicker, and much less invasive is needed. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:08:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Pollen I seem lately to have had a dramatic increase in requests for pollen. One customer said something about bikers (Lance Armstrong types, not motorcyclists) taking it now. And of course the people who feel it will help with allergies. Also the local health food store who wouldn't buy from me in the past sent an employee down the the Farmer's Market 2 weeks ago to ask for some. She said they can't get the local stuff anywhere anymore. I've got 4 of Lloyd's traps, but I haven't got any pollen left. So the point I'm making is that if one can get 8-12 dollars per pound or more, it might be worth looking into the cost of pollen substitite. I know that many don't want the liability of selling pollen, or the hassle of ordering pollen substitite if you've only got a couple hives, I'm just mentioning a potentially more lucrative use for it. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:33:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Preparing Pollen Patties In-Reply-To: <003f01c3c95f$54616150$aae9d518@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Also do not feed pollen that was collected from chalk brood colonies. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 896 5247 Lloyd Spear wrote: >Graham asked "I have pollen I trapped last year. What is the best way to >feed this back yo my bees." > >FIRST AND FOREMOST...if you had AFB in the hives you collected from, or if >you prophylacticly treated with Terra. for AFB, don't feed the pollen back. >The only possible exception to this would be if you used a Sundance trap to >collect the pollen. Even then it would be risky. More about this later. > > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:35:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Conditioned bees, LIDAR, and landmines In-Reply-To: <200312231409.hBNDxABH005310@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tim said: "...One hopes that some of the huge amounts of money ... going into cleaning up .... will go to local field testing." That's something we'd like to see, but its a tall order. We developed this technology in the U.S. under DARPA funding (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency - the folks who really started the Internet, Stealth Bomber, etc.). However, DARPA provides 3 yrs research funding, then you are expected to be able to transition the technology. At this point in time, we have managed to obtain funds from an international agri-business to apply this concept to pollination of specific crops, and we have licensed the method to them for that use. We have not received funding to carry forward the demining work. We are working on obtaining funding to: 1) proof the concept in more areas and for more purposes, and 2) construct a dedicated, portable lidar system for mapping bee distributions, not only over mine fields, but over crops, orchards, etc. Based on proof-of-concept trials conducted at Sandia with the original Lidar - that was able to detect small groups (6-8) of bees at nearly a mile, and on several days of work at Ft Leonard Wood, with a different type of laser, we now have enough information to build an optimized system for tracking bees. It all worked so well that Sandia filed a patent on Lidar and Insect Tracking. Currently, S&K Electronics, a native american owned electronics firm in MT and my company (Bee Alert Technology, Inc.) are negotiating license agreements so that we have the full package for demining work. We think that laser tracking will also prove to be a powerful tool for finally understanding how bees explore new areas and work fields - since we can accomplish 3-D mapping (horizontal and vertical bee positions). Unfortunately, this all costs money and takes time. Note also, that the patents were filed, so that we aren't put in the position of having to pay/license our own technology. Politics have already gotten into the act, and we've had to defend our concept against profiters who expected to grab our team's technology and get rich fast. If we were interested in getting rich, we'd find a University that pays better. We like where we live and what we do. We want to be sure that the technology is made available at reasonable costs. We also want to ensure quality. For the demining work, lives are at stake. For the bee industry, you need better and reliable tools, and in a sense, bee lives can be at stake. Finally, some of you have asked about our current infra-structure, and are getting confused. Note, we have always been self-supporting on grants and contracts. Unlike other academically-based and federal bee labs, we have to finance everything that we do, including our own positions - no operational funds from state or federal dollars. Currently, we have: 1) Bee Alert!, our 30+ yr, academically-based research and development program, housed at the University of Montana. This is our basic bee research program, working on issues such as tools for remote management of bees, anti-theft systems for beehives, improved pollination of difficult crops, the aforementioned landmine work, and pesticide testing. 2) Bee Alert Technology, Inc. -- our newly formed, regents approved technology transition company, intended to move the technologies developed at the University of MT under Bee Alert into the "real" world, so that our equipment, methods, technologies are available to the bee industry and others. 3) The National Pesticide Institute, formed by Dan Mayer and myself in response to the ever expanding problems with bee kills from new generation pesticides and from mismanagement of orchards, plantations, crops - that lead to conflicts. 4) S&K Electronics -- with whom we have a Memorandum of Understanding to manufacture our electronic beehive systems and help train people to transition our technologies, and 5) A non-profit foundation to support basic Research and Development of bee-based technologies, namely, those aimed at saving human lives (demining, use of bees as sentinels for agricultural and building safety) and at helping the bee industry (especially "saving" the bee from toxic chemicals - e.g., pesticides or bioterrorism). Our foundation is in the process of being established. We need to build a fund that can be used for things such as providing electronic hives (for rent or loan) to beekeepers sustaining pesticide damage, student researchers, etc.). Hopefully, we can also raise money to develop a portable, lidar system. So, Bee Alert will continue grant and contracted funded, basic research. SKE will manufacture the hardware. Bee Alert Technology, Inc. will market products and services. The Pesticide Institute will provide testing, consultation, and services to the bee industry - bringing together Dan Mayer and my experience with bees and toxic chemicals (~65 yrs between us). and, The Foundation will work on providing some of the basic, grunt work that needs to be done, but isn't particularly competitive for research grants -- and, will provide a means of making our technology avaiable to students, researchers, and beekeepers who can't affort the cost of "buying" our equipment. Whew!! That's about all for the time being. Always looking for anyone who has some good insights as to how we pull any or all of this off. Cheers Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:19:34 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate Allen said: > One of my main concerns is that, if done in the fall, after > brood has hatched, such extreme and repeated manipulation > of the hives, even without the spraying, would result in at > least 50% subsequent losses over winter. I assume that this is your personal experience, but is there any data in support of this statement as a general truth? If it can be shown to be a "general truth", this is one of the more important factors that can impact overwintering. If you have the records, we could run a statistical pass, and see if your results really do say what you feel they say. Here where winters are much less harsh, I have seen no correlation between "late manipulations" and colony survival, but my sample size is not as large as yours was, and we never do much "manipulation" so late. We certainly do not pull each and every frame out and swing it around. :) > I don't get the same result when I do the numbers. Your math is right. You'd have 3% or so left after 3 passes of a 68% kill, not 1% To end up with 1%, you'd need around an 88% kill rate. jim (In theory, theory is the same as practice, but not in practice) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:32:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: More Bits & Pieces MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The following message, as submitted, included long quotes of a previous article and were edited by a moderator. Please do not quote complete previous articles. Moderators do not normally edit articles. They either pass as-is or ignored. Please read and observe the guidelines at the URL located at the bottom of every message. -- From: normand.choiniere@consultus.qc.ca Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Sucrose Octanoate You are quite right Allen. But this is for us, living in Canada another useful tool that would improve the situation during summer time. I don't think personally that this could be useful anyway for a commercial beekeeper as it involves a lot of manipulation and time. This is also a very invasive method for the bees. I would use it in an urgent situation when in June or July the number of varroas is too high and would be disastrous in September. There are other 'interim' methods like the 'flash' usage of formic acid as recently developed by J.P. Chapleau ( http://reineschapleau.wd1.net/ ) (french only). This is fast and efficient as an 'interim' control method for summer time. It can be useful for any size of apiary. Normand Choinière :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:53:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: However, for the Northern commercial beekeeper, it seems to me that something a bit more effective, a lot quicker, and much less invasive is needed. And legal in the U.S.. Especially with the FDA using mass spec machines to test honey without regard to cost of testing. Canada honey will be looked at closely when entering the U.S.. Honey contaminated will be confiscated I have been told.Contaminated will be any substance which is not approved for use in the U.S.. Substances which are approved will have to be below the PPM approved. I was up late last night and finished dissecting and looking at through a microscope a sample of bees from a 100 crashing colonies belonging to a Missouri beekeeper. I did not find a problem. The beekeeper today is installing Apistan strips for 24 hours to see if coumaphos resistant varroa have arrived in Missouri (as per my instructions). I will post results tomorrow so Missouri beekeepers can be on the lookout if I verify coumaphos resistant mites. What can the beekeeper legally use? ApiLife var or sucrose Octanoate esters. Possibly Apistan but the bees were still unaffected by fluvalinate in testing in Missouri last year as far as a control. Actually Apistan is about the only way this time of year to test for coumaphos resistant varroa. "Checkmite" will most likely be the last chemical strip ever to be registered in the U.S.. Control of varroa is going to get harder in the U.S. for the larger beekeeper . Other countries using chemicals for varroa not approved in the U.S. such as China and Argentina may have trouble getting honey through customs checks. When the borders were wide open (prior to 2003)honey got through. Not the case in 2003 and also for the next 2 years. I have had two calls from larger beekeepers needing bees to fill pollination contracts in California because something is wrong with their bees. Hives are crashing. Bad queens from queen producers both said. Queen producers were the first to get blamed in the late 90's when fluvalinate resistant mites kicked a few large beekeepers operations back. Lifting the lid and slipping in a chemical strip without testing before and after installation is easy but costly when in the spring you find half your hives are dead. Which is the way many beekeepers learned they had fluvalinate resistant varroa. Will history repeat itself with checkmite? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:47:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Seasonal Bee Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, The bees were able to fly a little bit so I captured another round of photos and have measured them for December. Averages Large Sept Oct Nov Dec 1.37 1.31 1.29 1.33 length 0.96 0.94 0.93 0.96 wing 0.45 0.38 0.37 0.35 thorax 0.46 0.46 0.47 0.45 abdomen Averages Small Cell Hives Sept Oct Nov Dec 1.32 1.29 1.31 1.32 length 0.92 0.91 0.93 0.92 wing 0.45 0.35 0.37 0.34 thorax 0.45 0.45 0.47 0.43 abdomen The large cell bees are generally slightly bigger than the small cell sized bees. Both the thorax and the abdomen measurements decreased for both cell sizes. Single Hive Averages Large Cell Hive Sept Oct Nov Dec 1.45 1.44 1.29 1.36 length 1.04 0.97 0.93 0.98 wing 0.42 0.37 0.37 0.37 thorax 0.46 0.46 0.47 0.45 abdomen Single Hive Averages Large Cell Hive Sept Oct Nov Dec 1.38 1.39 1.31 1.32 length 0.93 0.93 0.93 0.90 wing 0.40 0.35 0.37 0.34 thorax 0.45 0.45 0.47 0.44 abdomen With the limited amount of bee flight, it's harder to get enough properly oriented bees in the photos. Some sample sizes were smaller this time. With such marginal weather the bees tend to make quick flights and return to the cluster. Few loitter at the entrance. I have tried to coax them out by disturbing the entrance. But the bees that come out are in a defensive posture and attack the ruler. Very few are suitable for measuring. I initially chose the photographic approach because it was quick and easy. It also allowed me to measure living bees. Another approach, that might be interesting, would be to collect bee parts and allow them to dry in a dessicator. The individual parts could be accurately measured and compared. The problems with getting enough bees properly oriented to avoid visual errors would be eliminated. But drying may introduce it's own set of errors. Some Thoughts Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:48:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen, Hmm, but I checked the article in Dec issue of ABJ again - the 68% is the average result from 3 years of a single application of sucrose octanoate at least in one year brood was still present in the colonies treated. Treatment dates Sept 6, Sept 21, and Oct 15 and brood was removed. So it appears that there was brood in the colonies the first 2 years but not the 3rd. Mite mortality ranged from 38% - 87% for individual colonies for a single treatment. So 40% - 90% per single treatment. So your math is a little different 100% *.32 *.32 * .32 = 3.3% well within the 90% range usually considered necessary. I also would be very reluctant to treat colonies here in MN after broodrearing in the fall due to impact on overwintering but treatment earlier say in August ( we don't usually get any fall flow here ) could be done and should help produce a nice winter cluster of young bees that have not been damaged by varroa which is important for winter survival here. I agree that as it is too labor intensive for commercial outfits at present but it really appears to be begging for some additional work on application methods to reduce labor involved. Might be a useful tool for emergency treatment earlier in the season even just before or during the honey flow. For those of us with only a few colonies it looks interesting but still wish it was less labor intensive and disruptive to the colonies. Maybe it could be useful for treating packages in transit or for treating drone producing colonies for mating apiaries to ensure good drone populations that are not impacted by varroa. Time and testing by beekeepers and researchers will hopefully result in better ways to apply and use this product. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:34:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This talk of three sucrose octanoate treatments with comb removal and such, made me think of oxalic dizzling and how much simpler and easier on all treatment can be if the frames need not be removed. Oxalic trickling has that advantage, since frames need not be removed. The syrup is merely trickled down between the frames without any other disturbance. While oxalic trickling is easy on single brood chamber hives, a major obstacle to using oxalic drizzle on double brood chamber hives in fall after the season is over, is that each half must be treated. That normally means separating (hopefully) heavy boxes, and if they are glued together, breaking the seal late in the season when it is not a good idea -- not to mention a lot of work and hassle for both bees and beekeeper. It's enough to discourage people from using this effective and inexpensive method. On reflection, I realised that there is a simple solution: It should be an easy matter to simply roll each hive forward until it is upside down, then drizzle the lower box from the bottom, wait a few moments, then roll the hive back onto its floor, then drizzle the top box from the top. That way, the hive is only minimally disturbed, and the job involves very little lifting. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:33:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > And legal in the U.S.. Especially with the FDA using mass spec > machines to test honey without regard to cost of testing. Canada > honey will be looked at closely when entering the U.S.. Honey > contaminated will be confiscated I have been told.Contaminated will > be any substance which is not approved for use in the U.S Any ideas what the response will be to naturally ocurring substances like oxalic acid? AFAIK, oxalic is present in honey naturally, and treatment by evaporation, apparently does not increase the amount detected. I don't know about the trickling method. It seems to me that the bee authorities are asleep at the switch in reards use of oxalic. It is dirt cheap, resonably easy to apply, apparently effective, and can be quite safe when handled properly -- just like the other products out there, like coumaphos. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 15:03:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/23/03 4:12:41 PM GMT Standard Time, allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM writes: > However, for the Northern > commercial beekeeper, it seems to me that something a bit more effective, a > lot quicker, and much less invasive is needed. > A while back a guy selling this product basically told me the same thing. He did not reckon it a practical or particularly desireable method for my situation, where bees are on a crop right into September, and are of a strain easily stressed. Add in the practicality of doing it to 200 plus colonies every day to get round the once a week requirement, and this too at a time when brood rearing is still present, albeit in sharp decline, and the numbers just don't stack up. Murray :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:47:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Interesting article on HoneyKids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is a link to an interesting article on the Honey Kids in texas and their donations to the Measles Initiative: http://www.redcross.org/article/0,1072,0_312_2101,00.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:07:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen asks: Any ideas what the response will be to naturally ocurring substances like oxalic acid? I don't know what the response might be to formic acid also. I have heard that in certain states bee inspectors are looking the other way when it comes to formic acid use but the FDA are the people doing the looking and not the bee inspectors. I would guess if oxalic or formic acid could be used without raising the level over the level normally found in honey the treatment would pass FDA scrutiny. The confiscation of the huge volume of honey by the FDA (Texas)by U.S. marshals should be a wake up call for those using illegal chemicals. Can any large scale beekeeper afford to lose his/her entire honey crop to confiscation by the FDA? The FDA denied the request of a few packers for a tolerance for chloraphenicol in honey and also selling the chloraphenicol honey "ultra filtered" as pure honey. Looks to me like the FDA has caught the attention of packers and after a few producers get their crops confiscated and destroyed the rest of the producers will forget about illegal treatments. Honey will be on the FDA *watch list *for two more full years *and* the watch can be extended if the FDA feels the watch needs extending. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 20:49:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: # of cells in a frame/room for brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian said: Managed a yard in singles this past year. Produced more than doubles, mostly becasue of the extra box of honey extracted rather than left for winter. I found that the brood present was the SAME between the doubles and the singles. Bee hives left alone by the beekeeper tend to maintain a certain amount of brood. When not pushed by the beekeeper the brood present between a single and a double are similar when in a similar area. A minor spring flow happens and both queens increase laying. A cold snap happens and they slow down. I will say that a few of the researchers that have studied honey production will say keeping bees in two deeps can cause less of a honey crop if the beekeeper is not aware of the condition of the hive at the start of a major honey flow as 80 plus pounds of honey can be packed into the two brood nests instead of going into supers. Most hobby beekeepers like to see the 80 pounds go into the two hive bodies. maximum honey production: I will also say from experience that a properly prepared single hive (8 frames brood & bees)will never produce the honey of a properly prepared double (16 frames of brood & bees). And a properly prepared two queen ( 32 frames of brood & bees)will out produce the best double. The above are carefully managed hives tricked into brood production with brood added at the start of a main honey flow lasting about six weeks. The other frames to fill the box are pollen and honey. In poor honey production years the two queens really out produce the doubles but in excellent honey production years the extra work of doing two queens often is not worth the effort. I discovered the above by doing experiments I read about from the old beekeeping masters. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:13:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: For Bob and Murray In-Reply-To: <200312201723.hBKGCRE9018152@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: Tim Vaughan > Just something else to throw out, the beekeeper I worked for briefly in > 1983 used to say that the mustard caused the bees to swarm. The hills > here > are covered with it early in the year, and whether it's just coincidence > or something about the abundance and quality of the pollen, I don't > know. First, is it really mustard? Most wild "mustard" is actually wild radish, AKA charlock. It's a poor nectar producer, but makes very high quality pollen. I doubt it induces swarming in any respect except that it aids in spring buildup. It blooms here in SC every month of the year, but best from February to April. -Photos at address below... Dave Green SC USA http://www.pollinator.com/gallery/February/february_flowers.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:18:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate In-Reply-To: <000f01c3c9a9$7e170640$3aa59bd0@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am hoping that other members of the list will be able to critique regarding my following comments. In common with other agricultural activities, Apiculture is challenged when operators endevour to maintain healthy stocks. Part of the battle is waged against parasites and disease. Relating to V.d, several methods of control (with varying levels of efficiency) have been developed. Some specific to the mite ( Oxalic, Formic acids), others, borrowed from other targets (fluvalinate). In common with most pest control programs, the efficiency of artificial molecules have limited lives. This usually being due to resistance appearing against the applied substances in targeted organisms. But, unlike most other branches of agriculture, we have effectively lost our main weapons against V.d. We find ourselves in a position where the only materials or techniques left to our disposal, are those that were previously considered second rate (for a multitude of factors). Before resistance etc. occurs in other crop and animal production systems, research has in place the next generation of "helpful" products. A cereal farmer for example is spoilt for choice on how to control a particular condition developing in the field. Agrochemical companies pour dollars into advertising to attempt to persuade individuals to use their particular product. Beekeepers on the other hand are left attempting to read the minds of regulating authorities and how they may react to the application of oxalic acid and the like. As part of the agric. world, are we the only ones who are ill prepared for the future? Take away "the strips" now, and how many people will stop working with bees. The initials IPM are no doubt familiar to many - but how many are able to put into place an effective program and maintain medium term? I do not think that other systems in food production would cope either - but they are not faced with the dilemma of having to go out and squash aphids by hand. Our IPM techniques are not that basic I suppose, but they do not apply well to commercial circumstances either. So, why the lacune in product diversity in V.d. control? AFB - what have we in that arsenal? Seems pretty limited as well! Now I expect "the lack of cash etc." comments to be warmed up. My response to that is - Who's fault is that? Response - - OURS! If we, as a section of agriculture are too small to auto generate cash, then we should be tapping funding sources that are capable of supplying the correct amount. To do that, our directing organisations need continuous audit to ensure efficient and effective action. They need to be responsive, forward thinking and in touch with beekeepers. Reacting to their needs. Maybe it is I who is out on a limb, but I consider it to be too often the other way around. It is the beekeepers who have to react to the researcher and the attached ego - often a reflection of the world in which such individuals live. Ask for info. and more often than not, a confidentiality clause is quoted rather than useful facts, figures or data. So, if the industry is able to survive the expected onslaught of resistant V.d., lets try and get together to ensure we are not left lacking as we appear to be at the present. Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:41:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, Peter said: But, unlike most other branches of agriculture, we have effectively lost our main weapons against V.d. We find ourselves in a position where the only materials or techniques left to our disposal, are those that were previously considered second rate (for a multitude of factors). In the U.S we made the same mistake as Europe as far as chemicals go. We used one type without rotating until the strip (fluvalinate) was useless. Then we switched to checkmite and did the same thing. We knew which *hard* chemicals were available for varroa control in the 80's . No new were ever added to the list. If the beekeepers of the world had been on top of the situation chemicals might have lasted another 20 years. Chemical strips are valuable in my opinion to use to check IPM treatments. The are also useful to remove varroa from a hive if your * soft treatment *treatment fails. Commercial beekeepers are spoiled by strips. Some will make the adjustment to lesser controls and some will go out of business. Peter said: Before resistance etc. occurs in other crop and animal production systems, research has in place the next generation of "helpful" products. We have got the next generation in place (U.S.)but they are not what the larger beekeeper wanted. The larger beekeeper asked the USDA for a varroa control which was systemic. Peter said: Beekeepers on the other hand are left attempting to read the minds of regulating authorities and how they may react to the application of oxalic acid and the like. The regulating authorities have been easy to deal with thus far in the U.S.. They have given us most of what we wanted. A few beekeepers (using illegal treatments) and a few packers (importing contaminated honey) have caused problems for an entire U.S. beekeeping industry. Peter asks: Take away "the strips" now, and how many people will stop working with bees. Only the best beekeepers as far as the larger beekeepers are still in business. Cost of production will go up without the strips and perhaps larger beekeepers will have to run less hives to be successful. Changes will need to be made. Hobby beekeepers will continue to do as many now do. Simply order another package the next spring to replace a dead hive. Peter asks: The initials IPM are no doubt familiar to many - but how many are able to put into place an effective program and maintain medium term? Using IPM has saved me a huge amount of money over the years. To me walking out of a bee supply house with an armfull of meds without even knowing the problems are in your hive is dumb. Peter said: Our IPM techniques are not that basic I suppose, but they do not apply well to commercial circumstances either. Whats not basic about testing and treat as needed. Use soft methods first and hard methods as a last resort! A very thought provoking post Peter! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 06:52:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: For Bob and Murray It is Brissica rapa, wild mustard. Brought from Europe, possibly by the Spaniards. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:48:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Oxalic In-Reply-To: <01c801c3c983$5fc8cdc0$0100a8c0@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Allen posted a wild idea of turning the hive upside down to do oxalic acid dripping in both brood boxes without having to break the boxes apart. I must say that is a very creative solution. I hope you didn't make a joke and i make a complete fool of myself now. But wouldn't the bees go berzerk (just like they do when i break the boxes apart)? I suspect my bees would anyway. Berzerk bees in the late fall are no fun, because they rather walk than fly and they tend to walk as far inside your overall as possible and then get stuck and sting. How would you ensure the boxes don't come apart when you turn the hive over? Do yhou think the propolis would be enough? I have tried oxalic dripping two years in a row and apart from having to disturb the bees in the late fall, it's really simple. However, it's common knowledge that it's not enough to keep the mite levels down. It has to be combined with other methods (sorry if i'm stating a well known fact to you experts here). I have also been removing drone brood in the spring. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 03:10:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: # of cells in a frame/room for brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I will also say from experience that a properly prepared single hive > (8 frames brood & bees)will never produce the honey of a properly > prepared double (16 frames of brood & bees). I can't say that I have been able to prove that, and I've tried, so maybe it all depends on where you are, and other factors. It also occurs to me that, perhaps, we are talking about different things: I'm assuming that using either 1.) a single or 2.) a double brood chamber, with an excluder on top, and that we are not pulling honey out of the brood chambers. Moreover, beekeepers often talk about 'frames of brood', and then switch and immediately talk about 'frames with brood' interchangably, and it gets very confusing. Sometimes, I wonder if it is done on purpose, but hopefully we can agree on terms here. When measuring brood, I assume a frame *of* brood is about 90% brood, and contains (very roughly) 6,000 cells of brood. I also reckon an average frame *with* brood, often called ' a nice frame of brood', actually has about half that, if you actually measure and calculate the area. The problem is that a 1/2" strip with no brood around the edge doesn't look like much, but it reduces the amount of brood by 20%, and an inch of feed or empty cells around the perimeter reduces the actual brood by 35% -- from that 90%, and the brood is usually in an oval shape not square, further reducing our estimate. So, I'm wondering... 16 frames of brood, if that is what you really mean, and not 16 frames with some brood or 16 frames with bees and some brood, would be something like 96,000 cells of brood, and would seem to imply a queen laying 4,500 eggs a day non-stop, or two queens at 2,250 each. 16 *average* frames *with* brood would be the product of a pretty good queen, laying 2,250 eggs a day continuously over three weeks, and, according to a number of authors, that is a pretty good queen.. In my experience, about 9 to 12 frames fairly full of brood -- ranging from pretty full in the centre, to a decent patch on the outside frames, is normal at the peak of the season where I live. I seldom see 16, although I may see 16 with some brood on them. In my experience, also, singles are able to get much bigger than 8 frames, if properly managed, so, again, maybe we don't mean the same thing. I'm talking about a single brood, but with an excluder and a second box or more added as needed, and 10 good frames in the bottom box. In a setup like that, the brood can easily be wall to wall, and the extra bees can fill the second, plus many supers. Some beekeepers do a little spreading of brood in singles, if required, but in my experience, if the queen needs the space, and there is adequate room for bees and feed in the seconds, the bees make room for her in the brood box. Sometimes there is not much except brood in the single bottom brood box. In my experience the frames of brood in a single also tend to be noticably more completely covered with brood than those in doubles. > And a properly prepared two queen ( 32 frames of brood & bees)will > out produce the best double. As for two queen hives, I just figure that they are really just two hives, stacked up, so of course they often make more honey than one hive, and they look impressive, to boot. However, in my experience, they seldom made twice what one did, and they sure could eat. Others report different results, but I calls 'em the way I sees 'em. Keeping two hives, one on top of the other, was a lot of work, so I made some more floors, and went back to keeping each hive on one stand. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:51:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I must say that is a very creative solution. I hope you didn't make a > joke and i make a complete fool of myself now. Nope, that's how we check populations: tip the hive forward and look under, and how we separate glued-up boxes: lay the hive on its front and then pry -- less lifting. When we used to scrape topbars, we used to roll the hives onto their fronts, since the bees don't boil up unto the top bars when in that postion. From there it is just another quick roll to invert the hive, especially if you have a pallet or some such platform to match the floor height. > But wouldn't the bees go berzerk (just like they do when i break the > boxes apart)? I suspect my bees would anyway. Berzerk bees in the > late fall are no fun, because they rather walk than fly and they tend > to walk as far inside your overall as possible and then get stuck and > sting. Not really, assuming you choose your time and conditions well. I would expect that, with a little smoke, used wisely, and pre-emptively, that very little activity would result. > How would you ensure the boxes don't come apart when you turn the > hive over? Do yhou think the propolis would be enough? On my hives it almost always was, but lots of people scrape everything so that it looks new. I always figured the bees like it a bit gummed up and left it pretty much that way. If the equipment comes apart easily, why invert it? Just lift the second aside and treat from the top. I was assuming the case where separating the boxes could be difficult and disruptive. > I have tried oxalic dripping two years in a row and apart from having > to disturb the bees in the late fall, it's really simple. However, > it's common knowledge that it's not enough to keep the mite levels > down. It has to be combined with other methods (sorry if i'm stating > a well known fact to you experts here). I have also been removing > drone brood in the spring. I think that this varies with a lot of factors and perhaps region. Some strains, like impure Russian or SMR crosses might be fine with one annual treatment, if indicated by monitoring. Each beekeeper needs to monitor mite levels. The problem with drizzling oxalic, is that I understand that it cannot be repeated several times in the fall without compromising wintering success. For that reason, many are looking at oxalic evaporation, which has a lingering effect, and also can be repeated without apparent damage to the bees. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:04:59 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: phil MOORE Subject: Re: Bobs two queen system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" > And a properly prepared two queen ( 32 frames of brood & bees)will out > produce the best double. > What would you say was the best two queen system? Regards Phil Moore :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 11:24:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Great Holidays to Y’all: “Moreover, beekeepers often talk about 'frames of brood', and then switch and immediately talk about 'frames with brood' interchangeably, and it gets very confusing. Sometimes, I wonder if it is done on purpose, but hopefully we can agree on terms here,” says Allan. Although I do not know to what extent these two prepositions would have made the difference here, I like this type of *level-headed approach,* in discussing bee issues since we are dealing only with the certainty of a “bell-curve,” indeed. In fact, one can use or abuse the term “locality,” to camouflage one’s blooming idiocy, especially on an international forum like this, where we do our best to hide our dirty linen we have soiled because nobody will be able to check. Right? However, the following generalization, heavy-handed and too broad by looking things only in black and white, with no gray in between, is rather disturbing: “Only the best beekeepers as far as the larger beekeepers are still in business. Cost of production will go up without the strips and perhaps larger beekeepers will have to run less hives to be successful. Changes will need to be made . . . . Hobby beekeepers will continue to do as many now do. Simply order another package the next spring to replace a dead hive.” Had it not been for X-mas Eve, I could have gone into the mud of “what/who is *the best* beekeeper and according to what?” For example, the best one should not use any chemical, though commercial. Similarly, though I am not a hobbyist, such broad stroke on beginners is not called for: we all had started green sometime, somewhere, and many of us still feel green, in fact. True, Bob did not mean to belittle the little guys, but why drag them into the debate unnecessarily? I have never met a hobbyist who knowingly created bee disease and spread it to the devastation of the industry. Look at the AHB brought on by a bee *expert* in Brazil around 1956, the year of Monkey in Chinese calendar, I believe. Yoon, Shawnee, OK. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 11:29:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bobs two queen system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phil asks: What would you say was the best two queen system? In my opinion Dr. Farrar was the most knowledgeable beekeeper in the world on the two queen system. he researched around 400 two queen hives for many years and wrote about his findings in the American Bee journal & Gleanings. Dr. Farrar used medium depth frames (as did most of the bee labs at the time) and square boxes (18 by 18) and I had trouble adapting his system over to deeps. The principal was the same. Willard Madole ( A Midwestern Beekeepers Assn. member now deceased) wrote one article for ABJ ( around 1967-69 I believe)about his two queen system for Missouri. Willard kept bees into his nineties and was a close friend of mine. He kept all his hives in two queens for over 40 years. I gleaned a wealth of information from Willard. Willard said I was the only beekeeper he ever met which was truly interested in his methods. I only do two queens now as a novelty. As Allen points out they are a tremendous amount of work and time consuming. Reply to Allen's post: Years ago when I had time to experiment I set up many experiments using information provided in articles and books. I raised comb honey over queenless bees (C.C.. Miller method). I did two queen hives (Dr. Farrar & others). I recreated experiments of Dr. Farrar on honey production. I then went to experimenting with honey production in singles and double deeps. Two queen hives. I would take a yard of 10-12 hives and make up 2 or 3 hives using monster slabs of brood . I did experiments with brood and only field bees. Brood and only nurse bees. I shook swarmed. I demareed hives. I tried hive configs I never read about. I did a huge number of experiments with upper, side and middle entrances. Maybe if a few researchers and beekeeping book writers had been looking over my shoulder they might change a few things in beekeeping books . I wanted to see how the bees reacted to various hive manipulations. I am sure the bees hated to see me drive into the bee yard in those days but was a learning thing for me. Bob Ps I am going on the road for a month so will be gone from BEE-L from Dec. 26th. till last week of January. Happy Holidays to all and look forward to seeing BEE-L members in Jacksonville! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:47:13 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen Wrote >On my hives it almost always was, but lots of people scrape everything so >that it looks new. I always figured the bees like it a bit gummed up and >left it pretty much that way. If the equipment comes apart easily, why >invert it? Just lift the second aside and treat from the top. I was >assuming the case where separating the boxes could be difficult and >disruptive As Mats stated Allens solution to the glued up boxes is a good one, and I know it works well when done by beekeeper who is willing to learn to handle the boxes this way. But I would like to point out a few things about treatment from above. First, one should not 'Just lift the second aside and treat from the top' Its much easier just to loosen the upper box ( if possible easily :) ), take the injector ready to one hand, lift the box from the behind with the other hand, and treat. This way there is no need to lift the box completely off. Much easier and faster. I normally treat when temperature is around + 5 - 0 C. At this temperatures my bees don't fly much from the opening during the treatment because is done so fast. But I do have my veil on, because some bees do fly from some hives. And they seen to enjoy the warmth of my neck. Don't actually sting before they get stuck under the collar. Its important to treat late in the season, to be sure that there is no capped brood to get to efficacy to be around 95 %. Also there is other way if one does not want to lift off the upper box. There is research data that it is enough to remove 4 frames from the upper box, just above the cluster and treat the lower box from this opening. In my opinion this is too much work, but seems to be that some people have psychological problems in taking the two boxes apart. In my eyes they should take Allens advice and treat from underside. But it's individual choice. I agree with Mats that oxalic alone is normally not enough. But in the study we have had for 4 years now I have seen that oxalic combined with formic of thymol is quite enough. Formic or thymol is given in August after the honeyflow and oxalic later. But looking at individual apiaries there is some that thrive with oxalic alone. This I know because in the experiment we test natural mite fall in august before the treatment with formic/ thymol. If it is lower than 1 mite / day we treat with only oxalic. At this fall about 30 % of hives and 20 % on apiaries ( all the hives had low amount) had this little mites. And for many of them this was already second year. Ari Seppälä :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:26:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sucrose octanate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 25/12/03 05:02:25 GMT Standard Time, Peter Dillon writes: > So, why the lacune in product diversity in V.d. control? Small market on national scales. Internationally the market place might be sufficient but is fragmented by government controls. Off topic, what do you know of Shire Lane? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 05:46:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Henry Subject: Re: Polystyrene, extruded or expanded? In-Reply-To: <003e01c3cab3$2cb63040$9e24d5d4@pomi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have read a lot about using polystyrene hive bodies. Currently I am wintering 3 hives in Northern Minnesota in wooden boxes. I had some polystyrene left over from a building project and was thinking of trying some polystyrene hives this next year. The benefits over wood seem worth the effort, and I have a dovetail jig and necessary equipment to make the boxes cheap. A 4'x8' sheet of polystyrene is only $8. I won't buy them because the companies that do sell them ask far too much. Anyway, the poly I have left over is extruded and not expanded. There are some major differences between extruded and expanded. Extruded is stiffer, has significantly higher R-value, and does not allow water to penetrate. Expanded is porous, has lower R-value, and isn't nearly as rigid. All of the boxes I saw on the market are expanded poly. Has anyone else explored this issue? Any comments are appreciated. Also, does anyone know the thickness of these expanded poly boxes? I'm planni! ng to make them out of 1.5" poly which would really make them rigid and nearly indestructible. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:57:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: kirk jones Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 21 Dec 2003 to 22 Dec 2003 (#2003-352) In-Reply-To: <200312230501.hBN4l0Ct025844@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I've wondered for long time about how much air or > ventilation queen cells > require, when holding them in an incubator or > container. The archives > did't provide on this detail, and I was wondering if > any one knows or > knows of any literature on this. The book THE HIVE > AND THE HONEYBEE, and > QUEEN REARING by H. Laidlaw didn't cover this. > Briefly, one of my > questions is how long can cells be stored in a > closed container or > incubator before needing, if needed oxygen? Any > information on this would > be appreciated. > I just built an incubator from an apartment sized refridgerator for our queen raising operation we're settng up at our new farm in the panhandle of Florida. I used a small fan to circulate the air. David Miksa from central Florida suggested that it is better to keep one running. I found one in the McMasters catalog. Not sure on the spelling. Anyway, they have one for about $22 that only uses about 8 amps draw or maybe less than that. It's about four inches square. I bought some small steel angles from the hardware to mount it. It runs all the time. I used two high humidity, 3 degree differential thermostats order from Grainger's for about $44 each. If one fails the other will cut the heat. Then I used two bulbs, so if one burns out the other will keep on heating. I used a forty and a 8 watt bulb. Just experimenting. It does keep the unit at 93 to 94 degrees F. Can we start a new thread on the Jenter system? We are going to graft, but I want to try the Jenter system just for the heck of it. About four years ago we grafted quite a few of our cells in Florida for hives to go north to Michigan. We quit for awhile because we didn't have our own place to set up a queen rearing operation. Now we have our own farm and will set up a queen grafting shed. Kirk Jones www.sleepingbearfarms.com ===== Kirk Jones www.benzieplayboyz.com www.sleepingbearfarms.com greetings from Northern Michigan! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:09:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Comments: To: Ari Seppälä MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ari Seppälä wrote: "But in the study we have had for 4 years now I have seen that oxalic combined with formic of thymol is quite enough. Formic or thymol is given in August after the honeyflow and oxalic later." I most certainly hope that research in the United States will bring to fruition FDA approval on oxalic acid; and this needs to happen with the highest of priorities; additional remedies that are available to the European markets are needed here as well. IMHO this needs to be pushed by the many associations, organizations, and even the NHB itself here in the USA. Dr. Thomas Rinderer and many, many others at the various USDA-ARS facilities and the many research universities are working on the genetic side of combating varroa resistance. Many dollars are being spent and genetically resistant lines of Carniolian, Russian, and Italian honeybees are coming to market this spring. Most -not all- of these "breeds" are requiring at least one treatment of a miticide per calendar year. Allen posted in his Diary yesterday, December 24, 2003: I heard today, from Heather, that CHC has decided to push for oxalic approval, covering both evaporation and drizzling treatments." Due to the adaptability of the varroa to become resistant to traditional pesticides such as amitraz, fluvalinate, and coumaphos it is my most humble opinion that a multitude of miticides needs to be developed, researched, and finally approved by the FDA in order for the commercial beekeeper in America to: (1) Stay ahead of the varroa. (2) Be able to apply a miticide in a fast efficient cost effective manner. Apilife- Var and Sucrose Octanoate are part of the solution, but there is a whole lot of stuff in the European pipeline- a whole lot!. I believe that the use of oxalic acid in both of its two currently available methods of application will afford needed additional protection for the honey bee as well as being safe in the food chain. It is needed now. Perhaps the folks that head the FDA should realize that the honey bee is responsible for approximately one third of everything we eat on our table, and that the feral honey bee is now most likely the result of improper swarm prevention or control. Europe is so far ahead in the R&D of miticides, yet published research is viewed by some in the US with skepticism; one of the benefits of a research project is the benefit of mirroring and repeating the experiments with the same probable expected results. The folks on this side of the pond need to act quickly and in a multitude of fronts from genetics to miticides to other methods and combinations of miticides and integrated management in order to combat this destructor. Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, North Carolina :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 09:54:54 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Johnston Subject: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here in the UK resistant varro mites are spreading, slowly at the = moment, but as with the mites themselves the rate of spread will no = doubt increase so we need to find alternative treatments. In my own = experiments I have tried Apiguard(too temperature depenant, and the = results are too variable), Formic I have tried on Mite Wipes, and three = different evaporators( results good but nasty stuff to use). So oxalic acid dribbling or trickling seems to be a usefull method to = use especially as it is done when there are few pressures from other = beekeeping activities.All literature I have read on the subject states = that oxalic should be applied during the broodless period in late = autumn,assuming this was when the most mites would be hit. This autumn I = set aside four colonies to test with oxalic, early in November I was = discussing this with a freind who said " are you sure there is no brood, = as he thought that oxalic would kill it"so I went to look, three out of = the four had brood in all stages, mostly only small patches, one colony = had two whole combs of sealed brood plus two six inch patches of larvae. QUESTION ONE. Will oxalic kill brood in any stage? QUESTION TWO. How late, ambient temperature wise, could oxalic be used Cheers Andy Johnston :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 13:18:32 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?Windows-1252?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andrew Johnston wrote: >QUESTION ONE. Will oxalic kill brood in any stage? >QUESTION TWO. How late, ambient temperature wise, could oxalic be used Question one is easy. As far as I know there is no problems to brood of oxalic drizzling treatments. And I have not heard complaints from evaporation either. The affects to brood is common misunderstanding, because every adviser stresses that the bees should not have brood. The reason for the advice is efficacy. If there is capped brood in the hive, and the total area is as big as mans hand, the efficacy is reduced to around 70 % from 95 % in broodless hives. Mites really concentrate to the last brood. Average beekeepers don’t bother to check every hive about the brood. Therefore I have decided to advice to treat as late as possible. The colder it is, the less is the efficacy, but because of the affect from the brood it is safer to wait until snow stays in ground. Or to check every hive for brood before treatment. I have read some papers about the temperature/ efficacy and have got the view that when temperatures are around 0 C and below the efficacy is about 5 % less than when temperature is above + 5 C. So the difference is small compared to the affect from the brood. The bees keep brood quite long in the fall. Just read a study that showed that in Southern England there is brood almost all the year around. Where would the line for average colonies with brood all the year around be in North America ? Availability of pollen and nectar affects a lot so there is big variation. Here in Finland we have seen almost 2 month differences in the end of brood period in average hives. Ari Seppälä Central Finland 62 N 24,5 E :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 12:52:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Normand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Choini=E8re?= Subject: Re: Oxalic In-Reply-To: <001d01c3cb96$509ff8e0$d78ff8d4@Johnston> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 04:54 2003-12-26, you wrote: >QUESTION ONE. Will oxalic kill brood in any stage? No. >QUESTION TWO. How late, ambient temperature wise, could oxalic be used >Cheers Andy Johnston 33F or 1 C Read ont he matter especially at http://www.apis.admin.ch/ All this and much more has been established some years ago in Europe, especially Swiss. Germans have also conducted extensive studies on OA. Normand Choinière _____________________________________ Normand Choinière Région de Mont-Tremblant, Québec, Canada. ______________________ normand.choiniere@consultus.qc.ca http://consultus.qc.ca http://consultus.qc.ca/choiniere http://consultus.qc.ca/valmiel http://valdurn.com http://eurodogs.org/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:52:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Andy and Everyone, I haven't tried dribbling oxalic but have used the fumes. I could not detect any damage or death to bees or brood. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:18:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen posted in his Diary yesterday, December 24, 2003: I heard today, > from Heather, that CHC has decided to push for oxalic approval, > covering both evaporation and drizzling treatments." Apparently, these treatments are approved in Europe and, so, much, if not all, of the work required to get them approved in North America has already been done. My understanding is that the Canadian Honey Council (CHC) figures they need about $30,000 CAD ($22,500 US) to get the approval done in Canada. The money is needed to get access to the European papers, consulting, translations, etc. CHC is approaching beekeepers to raise the money, and although each beekeeper stands to save a minimum of $3 per hive per year -- oxalic costs 2c per hive per treatment compared to strips at anywhere from $3 to 5 per hive per year -- nobody seems to be rushing in to contribute, yet, anyhow. There is one pharmaceutical company that is currently prepared to invest its own funds, but CHC feels the industry needs to take charge of the approvals. The reasons for this position are obvious: When corporate sponsors obtain approvals, the approval is specifically for their proprietary method of application or formulation, rather than for generic formulations or application methods. Although people have been getting away with using using generic versions of formic treatment, for example, with the new procedure accounting procedures that are coming in, using such cost saving tricks will require committing actual fraud in record keeping, and no longer be simply something that is not mentioned, ignored or overlooked. Proprietary formulations or applicators are usually marked up very considerably over the cost of the active ingredient. Consider Apistan and Checkmite+: Each of these products contains only pennies worth of the active ingredient, but sell for dollars. We'd hate to see that happen with oxalic, especially since the work has been done and there is no need for proprietary formulations or applicators. Although CHC is approaching beekeepers, it will be interesting to see what happens. Canadian beekeepers amaze me; even if they themselves will each save $5,000 every year -- starting as soon a s approval is arranged -- some I've talked to (many) won't kick in $1,000 (tax deductible) or two to make it happen, UNLESS the all the other beekeepers agree to pay first, and they are sure that everyone pays, since others stand to benefit from the results. Everyone waits to see if someone else will step forward first. Duh!. The example of the US beekeepers in contributing faithfully to the anti-dumping on the hope of a future result, and other similar projects, should serve as an inspiration, I hope. Progress in the world has always depended on a few with vision making an investment to benefit the many. Nothing is ever accomplished by waiting for the other guy to do it. Anyhow, I am sure the money will be raised -- somehow. Maybe US and Canadian beekeepers and organisations can work together to develop a case to present to all the various governments, and share the cost. The project is now underway and just needs a little money. I'm sure Heather would be happy to share and/or coordinate things. Oxalic is a cheap and safe treatment, with little risk of product contamination or harm to the operator. It is about as effective as any of the non-Apistan and non-Checkmite+ methods have been found to be. Used with the new strains of mite-tolerant bees, oxalic may be all that is required for most of the time in the near future. Moreover, we can be fairly certain that the mites won't become resistant to oxalic soon. We need some forward-looking beekeepers to step up and pledge money (how about $2.50 a hive?) to get the thing rolling. My $2.50 for my 50 hives isn't going to be enough. If you are a mover and shaker, and not one of those who waits for someone else to do the job for you, visit http://www.honeycouncil.ca and drop Heather a line, or phone 403-208-7141. Let's get the show on the road! allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ PS Be sure to add http://www.honeycouncil.ca to your bookmarks. It is a good source of news and other information regarding beekeeping topics. The site is on a new format, and you have to hunt a bit, but there is a lot there, including information of the new HACCP-based procedures for honey house operation in Canada. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 04:20:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Sugar residues In-Reply-To: <000801c3ca06$1aa34cb0$0100a8c0@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Remembering discussions about sugar use, some questions came to my mind: What are typical impurities in granulated sugar ? Are those impurities specific to sugar (namely nectar and honeys are normally free from those residues) ? If such impurities exist, are they detectable with current analysis ? At what level ? Just my curiosity to know. Hervé _________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:25:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Oxalic In-Reply-To: <00aa01c3cbd4$3997a290$23b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My understanding is that the Canadian > Honey Council (CHC) > figures they need about $30,000 CAD ($22,500 US) to > get the approval done in > Canada. What are the liability consequences, for a Canadian beekeeper, to use oxalic acid without official approval ? Hervé ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 01:43:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Honeys tastes In-Reply-To: <000801c3ca06$1aa34cb0$0100a8c0@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For those interested in honeys tastes (all "s" intentional), this article introduces a scientific methodology to select honeys jury members and to make honeys tatses vocabulary objective: http://www.apiservices.com/articles/fr/analyse_sensorielle.htm (article issued from CARI studies, an excellent Belgian institute, article also available in spanish). Odours are decomposed in "odours references" whose organic compound is known. Does anybody have references about studies dealing with organic compound in nectars analysis ? Hervé _________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:36:54 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Polystyrene, extruded or expanded? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi John & All, > I had some polystyrene left over from a building project and was thinking >of trying some polystyrene hives this next year. > I wood expect the polystyrene you are considering to use is regulare panles that are used to insulate buildings and such. Those panles are a relitivly low dynsity around 25 psi. and are to soft for hive bodies. When I make hive bodioes from Styrofoam I get high dynsity foam that is normally used to insulate roads from permafrost and it is 60 psi.. 60 psi. is as high as you can find without special ordering and spending more for it. Also any higher than that you have to buy it buy the 100 count because to make a run of it they will only do it making 100 at the least. ^0 psi is plenty strong enough I have found. Bees will chew on the foam so it needs some painting to prevent them from chewing. The bees will propolis it together just like wood and this is why you need the 60 psi. other wise the boxes will start chuncking apart. Make them with top bee space and simply use a peice of plexiglass for a inner cover and and peice of styrofoam for the top. Glue and screw ripped wood on a peice of styrofoam to make a bottom board. When making the rabbit for the frame rest cut it deeper than you need to inset a peice of ripped wood so the frames do not get propolised to the styrofoam. Use a router to make the hand holds. You can use just a bottom entrance but you can also simply drill holes below the hand hold just like some beekeepers do in the wood boxes. >All of the boxes I saw on the market are expanded poly. Has anyone else >explored this issue? > The reason for there cost is they are a high dynsity foam that is molded. These molds are expensive to make. They are also well made with an excilent frame rest. They are so hard that there is no need to paint them to keep the bees from chewing it up. They are lighter than wood and if you paint the out side of the boxes they will last a very long time. Like you I can not afford to buy them, but wish I could, so I build them myself. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA http://www.cer.org/ Caucasian Bee Keeper http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney Check out current weather in my area and 5 day forecast; http://www.wx.com/myweather.cfm?ZIP=99654 _________________________________________________________________ Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:39:18 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Pollen Comments: To: graham dawson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember seeing an experiment by our National Beekeeping Unit many years ago when they were located on the outskirts of Stratford-upon-Avon. They trapped pollen and stored the pellets in a paper sack in a freezer. In the following spring, some was fed back in pollen patties - but this had little or no effect on brood rearing. However, they also fed some back by taking an empty brood frame, placing it in a horizontal position, tipping pollen pellets onto the comb, rubbing the pellets loosely into the cells and then placing the frame in the brood nest. By the next day the bees had packed the pollen down and began to use it. This had a very significant positive effect on the amount of brood reared. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "graham dawson" To: Sent: 23 December 2003 13:23 Subject: [BEE-L] Pollen I have pollen I trapped last year. What is the best way to feed this back yo my bees. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 13:01:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stephen and Gail Mitchell Subject: organic cmpds in honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Herve, Your best source of investigations into the organic compounds, other than carbohydrates, in honey, is probably the Journal of Apicultural Research which is published by IBRA (International Bee Research Association). For a fee, you can have a search done. The web site is . All the Best for 2004! Steve Steve and Gail Mitchell Bee Haven Farm 4820 Wilson Rd. Duncan, BC V9L 6L6 Phone(250)746-9916 Fax (250) 746-9233 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:02:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 27/12/03 18:32:50 GMT Standard Time, Andy Johnston writes: > QUESTION ONE. Will oxalic kill brood in any stage? When I used oxalic last spring when there must have been brood in the hive I saw hundreds of mites drop but I don't remember seeing any brood on the monitoring board. I can't offhand remember what size mesh floor I had under that hive. I suppose 1/8th might have intercepted later brood stages, but I think I would have noticed corpses on the alighting board unless the tits got to them first. So the short answer is 'don't know'. > QUESTION TWO. How late, ambient temperature wise, could oxalic be used. I don't think ambient temperature is a significant factor under average UK conditions (I write from Dorset), as the mites will mainly be within the brood area where the bees control the temperatures diligently. My method is to dribble the acid between the frames onto the seams of bees and so there is no need to disturb them beyond taking the crown board off. I also used it on my top bar hive where I did have to ease the bars apart sufficiently to identify where the seams of bees were and to annoint them. The design doesn't allow for monitoring, but they throve. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:41:51 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Chuck Norton" wrote:< I believe that the use of oxalic acid in both of its two currently available methods of application... Actually there are three: spraying, dribbling and evaporating. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:49:41 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Andrew Johnston" wrote: 'All literature I have read on the subject states that oxalic should be applied during the broodless period in late autumn,assuming this was when the most mites would be hit.' This is the problem with oxalic - by the time that there is no brood the bees that we need to survive the winter may have been badly affected by DWV (see my Leamington Conference report: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/February2002.htm). This why I believe that treatment with thymol (http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/PENotes/VarroaTreatment.htm) in August, just after the honey crop has been removed, is a far better option - and my experience so far has proved this to be so. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:16:26 -0500 Reply-To: DanJan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DanJan Subject: Re: Sugar residues MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Granulated cane/beet sugar is one of the purest chemicals as it is formed from crystallization of a sucrose syrup Dan Veilleux In the mountains of North Carolina Zone 6a :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 02:57:00 +0100 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: Oxalic In-Reply-To: <005e01c3cbf2$e4d081e0$abb787d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is the problem with oxalic - by the time that there is no brood the > bees that we need to survive the winter may have been badly > affected by DWV Deformed wing Virus, have to do with varroa infection and bites, and not with use of ocalic acid! Best regards Jorn Johanesson Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software since 1997 home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 02:51:45 +0100 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: Vs: [BEE-L] Oxalic In-Reply-To: <006701c3cba3$3bf92f80$6924d5d4@pomi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello beekeepers! The reason for the brood less and thereby autumn treatment by oxalic acid is that the oxalic acid is not killing varroa mites in capped cells, it will simply not go though the capping. That's why it is recommended to do a spring treatment with formic acid, because this treatment will also kill varroa in capped cells. You can still find the Danish Varroa report in English on my site. There is a newer one but there was not that much difference in that present at my site and the new one. Formic acid is used for a long time here in Denmark and oxalic acid is also used. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software since 1997 home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:24:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Varroa destructor and Apis cerana 1. I have data (unpublished) showing that if one artificially transfer V.d. from mellfera to cerana drone or workers, Vd reproduces fine there in both worker and drone of A. cerana. Denis says this is not new and have seen it before, although I do not know the reference. We have several years data showing this pattern and will be publishing it soon (I hope). These data suggest that perhaps grooming or other behaviors might be important in preventing the Vd from getting into cerana colonies in the first place. 2. Denis and I have a paper in press (Apidologie) showing that in China we only found Vd and Vj is absent in both mellifera and cerana. 3. Denis and I will try do some JH titer together in the coming meeting end of Feb. My lab can measure JH in individual bees. All bees (all Hymenoptera) have the same chemically identical JH, JH-3. Zach :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 08:46:41 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Jorn Johanesson" wrote: > Deformed wing Virus, have to do with varroa infection and bites, and not > with use of ocalic acid! Jorn Perhaps you did not read the report? The whole point is that oxalic treatment is not very effective until there is little or no brood and, by delaying treatment until then, the young bees that we need to overwinter will have been infested with varroa. The average lifespan of a bee with DWV is 88 days - so these bees (and therefore the colony) will not survive the winter. It is, therefore, essential to reduce varroa numbers before winter bees are reduced - in the UK this means treating as soon as the crop is removed in early august. This is easily done with thymol crystals, which are very cheap (32p per colony for 4 x weekly treatments) and give good results at that time. If needed, oxalic can then be used later, say November, although I have not found this to be necessary. Happy New Year to all Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 08:50:27 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: > It is, therefore, essential to reduce varroa numbers before winter bees are > reduced should have been 'produced' of course - still recovering from Christmas! Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:57:01 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: What did you do at Christmas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed Hello all, I am also (modestly) active on a farming newsgroup, and the above question was asked. I sent the following reply, as this is just what happened, and to my surprise I got a reply from a Bee-L lurker asking why I did not post it here too. Please find it pasted below. Sadly this is the true picture of my Christmas 2003. ......................................................................... ................................... 9:15, Christmas morning. Phone rings. Farmer X on the phone. Did we not tell you we were starting to put in an irrigation system in the new raspberry field? (The one where the bees are wintering) No you didn't. Well, we are starting to excavate for the main pipe tomorrow morning at first light. (Boxing day non existent around these parts) and so on. So, under the glowering gaze of my wife, and the disappointed gaze of my two youngest, it was on with the oilskins and wellies, and away out in one of the Unimogs to shift 40 hives of bees from one farm, about 5 miles to another. Back in about 12:30. All peaceful till about 6 that night. ( Apart from the guilt trip being laid on thick the rest of the afternoon about going out on Christmas Day when I was needed to help. Did I do it on purpose to get away? Slightly frosty Christmas Dinner.) Then the phone rings. Farmer Y on the phone. About your bees in the Crossroads wood. Yes. Well, we were a bit short on grazing, so we stuck 40 head of cattle in there a couple of days ago, until we get another place for them, and they have disturbed a couple of hives. OK, I'll be up in the morning. (With some trepidation, as there are certain key phrases that set alarm bells ringing, such as:- 'My young lad was out in the car and noticed one of your hives was lying on it's side'. This usually translates as 'He was out careering around in the pick up truck pretending his name was Schumacher, failed to corner, and demolished a dozen hives.' or 'We were cutting some wood for the house and one of the hives got disturbed' equates to 'Oops, a tree we felled landed right across a pallet (or more!) of your hives, and reduced them to matchwood.') You get the picture. 8:00 Boxing day morning. Oilskins, wellies and Unimog and off I go. Reach the Crossroads wood and it is carnage. Bucketing down with torrential rain, they have had so many cattle in there all the surface vegetation has gone (it had loads of wild orchids in it last summer, albeit not rare ones), and it is now a foot deep in churned up mud. Unimog of course churns through everything and I arrive at the bees to find 28 out of 40 hives are varying states of disarray, and at least 6 will not survive this, having been both knocked over and trampled. The mud there (three weeks ago it was a lovely wood with plenty former vegetation remaining standing) was almost up to the top of my boots. I suspect little more than nettles will be growing there next summer. Get back home, to find domestic bliss has broken down and the 7 and 9 year olds are at each others throats, wife is at the end of her tether with them, the teenage sons (aged 21 and 24!) have still failed to get out of bed, and I was needed back at least an hour before as my wife wanted to get away to the Boxing Day sales for which it was now too late. (Did I take so long on purpose because I was happier away from home?). Ah, the bliss of the holiday season. At least they heeded something this year. For years I have been telling them all NOT to waste their hard earned money on junk at Christmas, buying gifts that are not wanted, and of little use or robustness, when they actually have more need of the money than I do of the gift. So, at present opening time I am presented with precisely zero parcels. Exactly what I wanted. Then at the very end I get an envelope handed to me and open it to be utterly delighted by the contents. Instead of buying me something useless they had clubbed together and sent beehives to poverty stricken people in Lesotho in my name. (An organised charity, Send a Cow, does this in a proper manner, and they had contacted it to make the arrangements.) I could hardly speak I was so pleased. So much more in the spirit of the season than the endless consumer junk, not needed, not really wanted, and much of it only designed to put maximum profits in company hands and keep GBP 20 a month workers in China busy. Wonderful. Hope you all had a nice peaceful Christmas, and that New Year brings contentment. Murray ......................................................................... ................................. For anyone interested, the Send a Cow charity is linked to the US organisation Heifer International Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 05:06:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Thymol in August in England MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It is, therefore, essential to reduce varroa numbers before winter > bees are reduced - in the UK this means treating as soon as the crop > is removed in early august. This is easily done with thymol > crystals, which are very cheap (32p per colony for 4 x weekly > treatments) and give good results at that time. This is a good point. I was curious, so visited your website, and found http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/PENotes/VarroaTreatment.htm (hope that long URL does not wrap) --- "Thymol crystals are placed in an old honey jar lid placed on the queen excluder directly over the brood; supers will - just - fit over the lid to allow the colony space. The dose used is 8g (approximately 1 teaspoonful) per week for four weeks and is applied in March - April, before the flow starts and during August immediately after the main crop is removed. Cost is approximately 45p per four week treatment. Thymol is a relatively safe substance to handle with gloves ( http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/TH/thymol.html ), but is very pungent and therefore best kept out of the house. " --- That 45p converts to 80c US, if my conversion works correctly, twice a year in your locale, for a total of $US1.60 annually. Pence are 100 per pound, now, are they not? That puts it right in the same price ballpark as my single strip of Apistan, used in early spring, although it might be a little less tidy. I'm wondering about the food safety aspect of thymol, which, from the sheet referenced seems to be a purified chemical, rather than a spice. I understand that thymol can taint honey if used at the wrong time of year, and am also wondering how it is percieved by the authorities who classify food additives. I realise we may have discussed this latter aspect a few years ago, but, since then, a lot may have changed. We have a lot more experience, and the rules may have shifted or solidified in some jurisdictions. Whereas I understand benzaldehyde to be a food additive, also called artificial oil of almonds, I also understand that some important importing countries will reject honey if benzaldehyde is detected in *any* amount, whatsoever. Is this true of thymol? Often the small beekeeper has little concern about such details, but larger beekeepers and packers must always be very aware of increasingly stringent testing and regulation. This is another very interesting option, and the fact that it seems to work so well for you is encouraging. I'd be curious in what quantities and at what purity you are obtaining your supplies and the regulatory opinion, if any, in your district and markets. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 08:34:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Thymol in August in England MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/28/03 1:18:45 PM GMT Standard Time, allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM writes: > I > understand that thymol can taint honey if used at the wrong time of year, > and am also wondering how it is percieved by the authorities who classify > food additives. > You have to be careful how you handle this issue with thymol users. Thymol users generally cannot smell thymol at low levels and take serious umbrage at any suggestion their crop is tainted. They do not think there is anything wrong with their product, and indeed from their perspective that is so. However, a person without regular exposure to thymol can spot it right away, especially if it has been used in any quantity or at times close to, or during, a honey flow . I was recently in the honey extracting room of a beekeeper using thymol and you could smell it right away, but he was quite upset when I asked if he was using thymol as I could smell it. Only an hour or so later once he had calmed down did he tell me he was using thymol for varroa. The whole room had a strong smell both myself and my daughter noticed, and I suspect it was coming from the wax more than the honey. Old story, but a significant consignment of honey from Scotland was rejected on the continent several years ago ( about 1992 or 3) because of the smell of thymol when the drums were opened. The vendor was very upset and accused the buyer of pulling a fast one and sold the honey after recall to a UK buyer I know well. This buyer had to use it for blending over a protracted period because the smell was so noticeable. I was shown the drums in his warehouse, and as soon as you opened them the aroma hit you. Yet others could smell nothing except good heather honey (which, the thymol apart, it was. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but enough to make me very wary of thymol potentially devaluing my harvest. Murray :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 15:31:42 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Thymol in August in England MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen wondered about my use of thymol: > That 45p converts to 80c US, if my conversion works correctly, twice a year > in your locale, for a total of $US1.60 annually. By buying larger quantities I have reduced 45p to 32p (and have amended the website!). Annual cost is there $1.13 > That puts it right in the same price ballpark as my > single strip of Apistan, used in early spring, although it might be a little > less tidy. I thought that the correct dose for Apistan was two strips in a single standard British National box. Are you under-dosing and working towards resistance? > I'm wondering about the food safety aspect of thymol, which, from the sheet > referenced seems to be a purified chemical, rather than a spice. Mine is food grade obtained from RC Treatt (they are in UK and US - link from website). > I understand that thymol can taint honey if used at the wrong time of year, > and am also wondering how it is percieved by the authorities who classify > food additives. Thymol is allowed for varroa treatment in the UK as a 'non-medicinal curative substance'. Thymol occurs naturally in honey, so we can use it provided that thymol levels do not exceed the taste threshold. Research that I have read so far (I do not have time to look up the references) has shown that the taste threshold was only exceeded when colonies were treated continuously throughout the year. The treatment regime that I use is before and after the flow. > I realise we may have discussed this latter aspect a few years ago, but, > since then, a lot may have changed. We have a lot more experience, and the > rules may have shifted or solidified in some jurisdictions. Whereas I > understand benzaldehyde to be a food additive, also called artificial oil of > almonds, I also understand that some important importing countries will > reject honey if benzaldehyde is detected in *any* amount, whatsoever. My understand is that benzaldehyde is carcinogenic and I would not now use it (or knowingly eat it!), although I did use it many years ago on fume boards - where I am sure that it contaminated the honey - comb honey certainly tasted of almonds. > Is this true of thymol? Often the small beekeeper has little concern about > such details, but larger beekeepers and packers must always be very aware of > increasingly stringent testing and regulation. Thymol is found naturally in honey, so I think it unlikely that there could be a problem unless the taste threshold was exceeded. > This is another very interesting option, and the fact that it seems to work > so well for you is encouraging. Yes - it is cheap, quick, safe and easy to use, does not contaminate wax or honey - and there seems to be little chance of resistance. > I'd be curious in what quantities and at what purity you are obtaining your supplies Treatt will supply from, I think, from around 5kg upwards. I bought 15kgs last time. > and the regulatory opinion, if any, in your district and markets. Covered above. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:53:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Wave Subject: India beekeepers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will be visiting several cities in India in January. Are there any beekeeping connections there? Any operations I can visit? Thanks, Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:17:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bhfarms Subject: Beekeeping and Ham Radio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking for beekeepers who are also amateur (ham) operators. Bill Hughes KI4BIY The Apiaries of Bill And Joyce Hughes 250 Leonard Lane Brighton, TN 38011 (901) 475-1918 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:13:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Oxalic >>The whole point is that oxalic treatment is not very effective until there is little or no brood and, by delaying treatment until then, the young bees that we need to overwinter will have been infested with varroa. The average lifespan of a bee with DWV is 88 days - so these bees (and therefore the colony) will not survive the winter. It is, therefore, essential to reduce varroa numbers before winter bees are reduced I agree,. I 'm told that it is most effective with little or no brood present, meaning late fall treatments. In my mind late fall treatment of severe infected colonies are a complete waste of time, money and effort. It is not the mites on the bees that kill the colony, its the mite damage to the young wintering bees that kills the colony. One step at a time, you must get the hive to early spring so they can start brooding. For a fall treatment to be effective, you have to treat at least a cycle and a half before the bees prepare for winter confinement. You must prevent the mites from entering the cell and damaging the bee. If your hives have a mite problem, your young wintering bees will already be damaged by the time you late fall treat with Oxalicacid. You will have weak stressed hives come next spring anyway and wasted effort. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:14:53 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Bobs two queen system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phil asks: What would you say was the best two queen system? Bob has replied fully, but not mentioned long hives, which are of course far the easiest way to manage two queens. All u have to do is to divide the brood and bees into two lots in spring, and insert a solid vertical divider midway down the hive (and open the rear entrance). U run the two parts separately for a few weeks (as allen says, it is easier to mange two completely separted lots than two lots one above the other sharing one entrance). Then u combine by removing the divider just beforew the main flow. While separated the two lots rear more brood than if not separated, but store less honey. When combined, the large amount of brood converts to one large foraging force than is worn out on the main flow , after which the colony is only normal size. So what u are doing of course is invest the spring flow in building a super-force for the later main flow. This can make sense in UK where the spring flow is rape (canola) and so a poorer quality honey than the summer flow if that is say lime. Dividing and reuniting is easier in a single long body than using two separate boxes as u only have to bring up the divider - not a complete spare hive including floor and roof. This division , rearing a new queen and recombination also controls swarming and also helps control varroa since u can treat the two parts one after another in latespring but at the stage when they have no sealed brood - so any treatment such as sucrose octoanote that kills just phoretic mites will be highly effective. Of course there are disadvanages to long hives - for starters, u have to overcome the conviction that the Langstroth is the finest of all possible hives. If however u are a migratory beekeeper, u will find a long hive impossible to move single handed - which is why the Langstroth will survive as long as large scale professional beekeeping does - but the Deep Long Hive is being tried by more and more hobby beekeepers in UK. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:26:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Peter Edwards" Our UK National Beekeeping Unit many years ago stored pollen pellets in a paper sack in a freezer. They fed back by tipping pollen pellets onto an empty brood frame , rubbing the pellets loosely into the cells and then placing the frame in the brood nest. Using a freezer only suits beekeepers who work close to electricity. When working an out apiary, I kept a honey bucket in an empty hive, and tipped in the pollen from a trap, then squeezed in a little fresh honey (by squashing a bit of comb, and stirred the mix to coat the pollen. The theory was the honey would absorb any moisture and seal the pollen from deterioration. An extra layer was added at each visit. The pollen was fed back next spring by digging out the solid honey/pollen and placing on bits of plastic mesh on the top bars . It seemed to work but I have never studied this properly (I can usually rely on ample autumn pollen under winter stores). Can anyone say if this simple method has worked for them? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:30:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Beeswax and football... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has everybody but me heard about this already? I'm not a football fan to speak of (at all, actually), so it may have been the talk of the halftime show for quite awhile...anyway, I cliped this from a Miami paper... The NFL is scurrying busily as well entering the last weekend of the regular season, with three of 12 playoff berths still being contested. As coach Brian Billick of the contending Baltimore Ravens put it: ``This is for the whole ball of wax.'' Billick wasn't kidding, or simply spouting a cliché. The Super Bowl champion used to receive a silver Vince Lombardi Trophy but will, beginning this season, receive a four-foot-high sphere of hand-shaped beeswax (the Vince Lombardi Ball of Wax) in a cost-cutting change not publicized by the league. ...or has this reporter simply found somebody dumb enough to believe this? Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:54:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: The 'M' in 'IPM' stands for 'Management' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> The whole point is that oxalic treatment is not very effective until there is little or no brood and, by delaying treatment until then, the young bees that we need to overwinter will have been infested with varroa. <<< > I agree,. I 'm told that it is most effective with little or no > brood present, meaning late fall treatments. In my mind late fall > treatment of severe infected colonies are a complete waste of time, > money and effort. While these opinions may accurately reflect some situations, is it possible that everyone is missing the point? Even after sitting through so many 'IPM' talks that I could spit, we are still thinking and talking in absolutes and speculating and acting on theory or speculation, not observation. There are some key assumptions in the above dialogue that may or may not apply in all cases. Apparently these assumptions do not apply in large parts of Europe from what I hear. In my case, I never had enough mites in the fall to do serious damage. Others may be overrun. I don't know. I've practised IPM since before there was IPM, and have *never* seen high varroa levels, no matter how carefully I looked, even with minimal treatment. Why, I don't know, but I know. The 'M' in 'IPM' stands for 'Management'. Each time is the first time. Every case is, to some varying degree, different. We can hardly decide that something will not work, and discard it summarily on the basis of speculation, when we know that others are using it with success. We need a full toolbox of methods and treatments, and we have to use them in response to *what we observe* at a particular moment of time in some particular circumstance, not what we think we will observe, what others have observed, what we saw last year... We cannot just adopt some formula and blindly follow it. That has not worked and never will. Somehow, though people keep trying to reduce things to a ritual. >From the time we get up in the morning to when we go to bed, we react to what we observe, even when walking familiar paths, like from the bedroom to the kitchen. Maybe a door is closed. Maybe a toy is in the way. Maybe the furniture has been moved. Maybe we have to walk around someone. The path is safe and familiar, yet we cannot just walk blindly with assurance of arriving unscathed. We have to observe and respond appropriately. Why, then, do we try to substitute rules for observation and reason when we work with our bees? Observing and responding appropriately, drawing on a fully equipped toolbox of ideas, methods, and products is necessarily behind all successful beekeeping. -- Someone asked about my use of a single Apistan strip in spring, suggesting that I might be ignoring the label, and also fostering resistance. Well, this made me chuckle, since it sees that many do not know that the labels on Apistan varies considerably from country to country, or even exactly what their own label actually stipulates. People also don't know what to do if the label says a strip for every five frames, and there are six frames of bees. Cut a piece off a strip and stick it in? I know some people who would do that. Or maybe there are seven? "Wait, perhaps that is 6-1/2? It looked like 10 yesterday afternoon when it was warm and I was feeding, and it was 15 when I was telling my friends about my hive at the meeting last week" (But the bee inspector called it four, with terminal AFB, and said to burn it)... Of course we are guessing, since 'a frame of bees' is an inexact measure and varies with the observer, the flow and the weather conditions. Should we then use two strips, and risk an overdose? Of course this is silly; the recommendations are necessarily an approximation and require some judgement on the part of users. The safest and most logical assumption would be to round off to the nearest integer. If the label calls for a strip for five frames of bees, then 3 frames get a strip, as do 7, but if there are 8, then time for a second strip? What about two frames of bees? Zero? The label does not say, and that is where that rare commodity, common sense, could come in very handy. Furthermore, anyone with much insight will realize that the numbers behind assessing the potential for the development of resistance are somewhat imprecise and speculative, seeing as many factors are not known and that the product will be used a wide range of conditions. The best that can be accomplished is an educated guess at the probabilities, and that is what makes up the label recommendations. The window between overdose and underdose may be wide or it may be narrow. The method and timing of application and the environmental conditions during the period of treatment are immensely important factors in determining this, but there is no way they can all be known or stipulated on the label. A recommendation that should be safe under all conditions is used, but odds are that is suboptimal in most situations. As it happens, the single strip has proven pretty much exactly correct -- according to the label -- for the median cluster size in my spring colonies. Not only that, but my method ensures that the falling mites, many of which are merely stunned, fall far below the cluster into a cold and unoccupied portion of the hive, so that even the partially resistant ones should (hopefully) have no second chance, as they do in the fall when the cluster reaches to, and covers, the hive floor. The early spring method I have used for the past few years has been developed for our conditions through careful observation by expert beekeepers and also meets the label specs. It also results in levels of mites far below those experienced by those beekeepers who slavishly follow the rules what they have heard recommended by people who have never had to buy a strip with their own money. --- Each, any and all of the many approved and soon-to-be-approved control methods have their place, and can result in a cost-effective and sufficient control of varroa when used by beekeepers who know their enemy, and who take the time and effort to observe before selecting a weapon. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Today: MYIE2, the disappering browser. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:13:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bobs two queen system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob has replied fully, but not mentioned long hives, which are of > course far the easiest way to manage two queens. The same thing is often accomplished by placing two single or double brood Langstroth hives tight together on a level stand, then bridging them with a single excluder that sits so that half is on each hive. A single stack of supers is built on top of the excluder and is occupied by both hives. Special half-lids of some sort or another cover the outer parts of each brood box -- the parts of the brood chambers which are not covered by the excluder and super stack, and the bees go up the stack, mingling happily with the neighbour bees, as they both expand. Using this trick, small splits that might only fill half a super can be made to completely fill a box, or stronger hives can be combined to work one stack of supers in a weak flow, yet be separated easily later, with minimal bother. 'Splitting' happens automatically when then the supers and excluders are removed and the normal lids are put back on, or the brood boxes can be stacked on one another at that time to combine them if desired. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 18:16:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Sucrose Octanoate >>Commercial beekeepers are spoiled by strips. Some will make the adjustment to lesser controls and some will go out of business. They will oviously choose the most practical treatment. The effect Sucrose Octanoate sounds prommising, but not practical to most beekeepers. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:43:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin wrote: > Using a freezer only suits beekeepers who work close to electricity. Or perhaps have one at home? > When working an out apiary, I kept a honey bucket in an empty hive, and tipped in > the pollen from a trap, then squeezed in a little fresh honey (by squashing > a bit of comb, and stirred the mix to coat the pollen. Disease, disease! > Can anyone say if this simple method has worked for them? No - have to admit that I have never bothered - loads of pollen around here in spring and in autumn, so no need. Just thought that it might be of interest to those who are less fortunate. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:48:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: Bobs two queen system In-Reply-To: <005d01c3cd78$b0283320$913c74d5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob has replied fully, but not mentioned long hives, which are of course far the easiest way to manage two queens. What does a long hive look like? Can you provide a URL for a site that has a photo? Tnx Doug :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:41:46 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: The 'M' in 'IPM' stands for 'Management' I hope everyone had a nice Holiday last week, and I hope everyone has another nice Holiday this week. (I think every week should include one day dedicated to feasting, parties, good cheer, and gift-giving!) Allen had some good points, and while the title of his post is strictly accurate, I think that the "M" in "IPM" should have stood for "metrics". Without metrics (measurement, records, numbers) one cannot "manage" anything, and really can't even differentiate between: > In my case, I never had enough mites in > the fall to do serious damage. and: > Others may be overrun. One beekeeper's "overrun" may be another's "no big hairy deal". (Not to pick on poor Allen, as he has said that he does measure and keep records.) But I don't really care what the mite level is in the late fall when brood rearing has stopped. By then, the mites will have done their damage. What I care about is the DELTA in "natural" mite drop between weekly readings during June and July. If I start to see mites get out of hand, I have to treat, which, at present in the USA, means taking the colony out of production. Treatments coming soon to a bee supply dealer near you may allow beekeepers to modify this strategy. I hope. I think that it >>>IS<<< very nice to be able to treat with oxalic acid, and kill off mites in late fall. But all this means is that I can expect a slower and later ramp-up of varroa populations in the spring and early summer, or perhaps no varroa problem at all, given my relative isolation from other apiaries. That said, I can't use Oxalic Acid. It is not approved in the USA just yet. I sell my honey, so I have to stick with the approved methods. (That said, I did try powdered sugar for a season, as it was clearly a "food grade" item.) But fall treatments alone will not "save" a colony. Saving colonies means following a standard mite-drop tracking protocol starting in early June, which for me means a count of 48-hour "natural fall". I've said it before: One cannot control what they do not measure. jim (There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who read binary and those who don't.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:05:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Well, here in Eastern Ontario Canada it was a green Christmas. The = temperatures yesterday and today were in the 40's and the sun was out. = Must have been warm in the hive as the bees were out flying around. The = bees were probably thinking it was March out. Unlike poor Murray who = seemed to be a tad busy Christmas :) I was standing in front of a hive = having a beer the day after Christmas dressed like it was spring out. = There should be snow on the ground and temps about -5 to -10 C (23 to 14 = f). Oh we are going to pay for this I fear :) The hives still seem to = be a good weight so the stores are holding out. A few mites on the = screen bottom board. =20 Have a happy and safe New Year everyone! Kent Stienburg :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:32:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: The 'M' in 'IPM' stands for 'Management' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim: >That said, I can't use Oxalic Acid. It is not approved in the USA just yet. I sell my honey, so I have to stick with the approved methods. Yes Jim, some seem to have forgotten that, or have they simply chosen to ignore it. At the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association spring seminar last spring, if I’m recalling correctly, Nick Calderone mentioned that using Crisco patties in a hive is not *approved* and would be viewed as not legal for use in hives that are producing honey for sale. >(That said, I did try powdered sugar for a season, as it was clearly a "food grade" item.) ....and the results were??? Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:35:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Varroa destructor and Apis cerana Hi Zach: Thanks for setting the record straight. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::