From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:20:05 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.3 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75113488ED for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDAZdK011456 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:17:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0312E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 98265 Lines: 2131 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:05:37 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George T Subject: 2 queens system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed HI ALL, 2,3 OR MORE QUEENS MANAGEMENT All the beekeepers want to have in their hives as much bees as possible. There are two way of getting this wish: using high performances queens or using 2 queens in the hive. There are a lot of beekeeping books teaching us about 2 queens in the hive and their way of management. But the management of 2 queens take time and you need extra materials like queen excluder. The R omanian beekeeper Adrian Huica find out the easy way to have 2 or more queens in the hive.It is very easy way to get this.You need only a lot of queens ,nothing else. No excluders. As I have read in beekeeping books and magazines , that in a lot of countries the beekeepers use to clip their queens . In our country, Romania, the beekeepers don’t pay much importance to this. If you do have two hives with 2 clipped queens all you have to do is to unite this two hive using “news paper “ method .After 2 or 3 days you take out the news paper and everything will be OK..Sometimes trying to united the two colonies the things can go wrong and the bees can kill one of the two queens.This happen very rarely. You can winter this two queens with great succes. After 6 or 10 days you’ll find out in your hive up to 6 fine queen cells.. If you want you can distroy them or you can use them to requeen because you can get very good queen. If you want you can unite in this way 2,3 or as much as you want. Working this way all the hive’s products will will be 2 or 3 times bigger that in the hive with only one queen. I have use this method back in 1997.I did not winter in this way because I need one queen to requeen.. Now in one hive I winter 2 queens and in the spring I let you know about the wintering. If you want more information do not hezitate to contact me: GEORGE TAMAS 45, Ms. ANTONESCU St. Sc A,Et.4 Ap9 2900ARAD, ROMANIA E:MAIL : georgetamas@yahoo.com TO ALL OF THE BEEKEEPERS :HAPPY NEW YEAR! _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:03:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Blane White Subject: Fwd: Re: [BEE-L] Sucrose Octanoate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Allen asks: "Any ideas what the response will be to naturally ocurring substances like oxalic acid?" Bob replied in part: "I don't know what the response might be to formic acid also." For formic acid there is an exemption from tolerance for honey since the gel pack is an approved product. So for formic acid there shouldn't be much of an issue. If someone is making their own formic acid treatment only for their own use at least in some states that probably isn't illegal or would be very hard to enforce due to the specific exemption from tolerance granted to formic acid by US EPA. It is illegal to sell an unapproved formic acid product. Oxalic acid is a different matter since there is no tolerance nor an exemption from tolerance for it in honey. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:55:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Same here in West Virginia USA, green as a leprechaun we did have snow but nothing stuck to make it white. Yesterday and maybe today saw my bees out flying around. Temperature was 60 yesterday. My hive here are heavy too which is good. Thought I'd move one so put a strap on to hold it together. Then tried to lift it off the pipe stand, it didn't move one bit. That heavy? Then found out I had strapped the pipe stand also :-) Hope to build up some super strong hives for next year. The drought 2 years ago, then the LONG winter, then WET WET year took their toll on the number of colonies. Russ Dean :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:53:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jay Mowat Subject: SOE in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know if sucrose octanoate has been approved for use in Canada and whether or not it will be available here in 2004? Thanks Jay Mowat :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:50:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Vs: [BEE-L] Oxalic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorn Johanesson wrote: > Hello beekeepers! > > The reason for the brood less and thereby autumn treatment by oxalic acid > is that the oxalic acid is not killing varroa mites in capped cells, it will > simply not go though the capping. That's why it is recommended to do a > spring treatment with formic acid, because this treatment will also kill > varroa in capped cells. If you needed to use Oxalic Acid for a summer treatment because of mite load, it would be as effective as many of the unauthorized (and authorized) treatment methods. 70% is the general range of effective mite kill when brood is present. The reason it is used in the fall is because it is effective but only as a single treatment (the vapor/evaporation method does not seem to have that drawback). Hence, when used with a broodless colony, you get the same or close to the same efficacy as approved strips. Oxalic is an excellent miticide in any of its application methods. It leaves little residue (over what is natural) in honey compared to Thymol or Formic Acid. In vapor form, it can be applied easily and gives excellent results. But. We are not talking about a benign chemical. If you are going to use it in an evaporator, unless you dress accordingly and have a respirator, you are in about as much danger as the mites you are treating. It is too easy to get casual when doing many repetite actions. Just ask a short fingered carpenter. Even thought the additional Oxalic does not show up in honey (like Formic it is in honey naturally), the publicity surrounding a serious incident to a beekeeper treating with Oxalic would be as damaging as if it were in the honey. How do you explain to the public that the "poison gas" the beekeeper was "spraying" into the hives and hurt him will not cause them harm if they eat that honey? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:04:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Dewey Subject: Re: What did you do at Christmas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bees for Christmas? Why what else chould I give my elderly mother who has everything she could possibly want? And best of all, thanks to the Heifer Project (www.heifer.org), she doesn't even need to worry about getting stung! She was quite delighted that someone somewhere would be getting bees thanks to her. My 10 year old daughter on the other hand received a hive tool and a box of wood. Our father/daughter project for the winter is assembling two deeps and 40 frames! The Assistant Bee Keeper gets her own bees this spring!! Happy new year to everyone. Lurking on the list has been a marvelous morning ritual for me this past year - THANKS! Regards, Andrew Dewey andrew@acadiacomp.com Southwest Harbor, ME :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 07:54:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Beeswax and football... In-Reply-To: <8518F15BB956014C90B2E2CC0D4C4F9F033193@w2k3telnet.root.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim Flottum wrote: > Has everybody but me heard about this already? > The Super Bowl champion used to receive a silver Vince Lombardi > Trophy but will, beginning this season, receive a four-foot-high > sphere of hand-shaped beeswax (the Vince Lombardi Ball of Wax) in a > cost-cutting change not publicized by the league. > http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/7573212.htm He also says, "I understand Burdines is having an after-Christmas sale on high hopes for the 2004 Dolphins, with marked-down prices". Since it has not been reported elsewhere (one google hit), methinks the old adage applies, - do not believe everything you see in print :) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:19:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> My understanding is that the Canadian Honey Council (CHC) >> figures they need about $30,000 CAD ($22,500 US) to >> get the approval done in Canada. > > What are the liability consequences, for a Canadian > beekeeper, to use oxalic acid without official approval ? --- I sent this to Heather Clay and she replied thusly: It is illegal to use an unregistered chemical to treat honeybees in Canada. If the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) finds a residue of any unregistered chemical in honey, beekeepers risk a fine or, worst case scenario, the loss of their crop. Currently there is no Maximum Residue Level (MRL) for oxalic acid in honey so the CFIA operates on zero tolerance. While oxalic acid remains unregistered, Provincial Apiarists and government extension apiculturists cannot make any recommendations for dosage or application rate. There is a risk that beekeepers may be applying too much product or mistiming the treatments. Without an official method, honey may become contaminated through inappropriate use of the product. When oxalic acid is registered there will be an official MRL set by Health Canada and an approved dosage rate will be made available to all beekeepers. There is a great benefit to having oxalic acid registered. It gives all beekeepers the choice for the most suitable combination of treatments for their colonies. --- If you are a beekeeper, regulator or extension person interested in co-operating with CHC, supporting the effort, or just learn more about what is involved in obtaining oxalic approval in North America, please call Heather at (403) 208-7141 or visit http://www.honeycouncil.ca and contact her from there. Even if you are not interested in oxalic registration, the CHC website is worth a visit. It is an excellent source of information on the bee industry from a Canadian perspective, and contains a fair amount of information about regulatory matters, etc. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 11:30:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Oxalic acid contamination (new) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > Allen asks: > "Any ideas what the response will be to naturally occurring substances > like > oxalic acid?" > > Bob replied in part: > > "I don't know what the response might be to formic acid also." > > Oxalic acid is a different matter since there is no tolerance nor an > exemption from tolerance for it in honey. Since it occurs naturally in honey and all that I have seen indicates no increase after treatment, I am not sure how you would determine that Oxalic Acid was even used. Formic does increase its concentration in honey, but goes down in time. And from what Bob has said, Thymol gets into it also. Depending on what you read, Oxalic does not increase its concentration, but that may be because of autumn treatments and it has all winter to get back to normal concentrations. But the "vaporizing treatment" people seem to indicate it does not increase much at all just after treatment. Interesting article on tasting all of them in honey. http://www.apis.admin.ch/english/pdf/BeeProducts/Sens98_e.pdf Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:20:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings Everyone, I have been puzzled by some beekeepers rejection of oxalic acid as a mite treatment because it doesn't kill mites sealed in with the brood and its maximum effectiveness is during the fall. Actually, I only know of one treatment (hot formic) that kills mites sealed up with the brood. All the various other treatments are hampered by the same restrictions, at least in my northern climate. They cannot be applied during a honey flow or when consumable honey is on the hive. No summer applications here. Those chemicals also kill only phoretic mites which amounts to about two-thirds of the mites at times when brood is present. So some means of extending their efficacy in order to kill the sealed mites must be used increase the time of contact to 3 weeks. Hence, the slow release strips. This limits their application in my climate to early spring or fall treatments in my climate. Yet, there are some differences. Oxalic can be applied almost anytime and costs almost nothing. It doesn't contaiminate the bee equipment, wax or honey. And it doesn't interfer with queen mating or drone development. Oxalic treated hives may require a second treatment, as it is effective for about two weeks versus three for the strips. That second treatment isn't as onerous as it may appear. Everyone removes spent strips immediately after treating don't they? I know of some who don't, so a second treatment may be onerous for them. And I worked for one guy who inserts a new strip every spring and never removes them! Ever! I've counted eight strips and more in his hives! Want to eat some honey from the co-op which purchases semi loads of his crop? The use of a non-contaiminating treatment like oxalic should be mandated for guys like him! But that's another rant altogether. :>) A fair evaluation of oxalic should also include a look a the limitations of the others available treatments. They don't seem too different to me. My small cell hives have been able to tolerate the mites without treatment going on four years now so varroa mites are a non-issue with them. Yet, switching to small cell is not an easy or inexpensive process. I'm not sure it can be done fast enough in an existing commercial operation to be economically viable. Certainly, 'regression', as has been proposed, would bankrupt most commercial operators. So small cell may not be feasible for everyone unless a non-contaiminating treatment like oxalic is used. Some Thoughts Dennis Murrell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:07:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Beeswax and football... Comments: To: Kim Flottum To: Kim and the List, I just wonder where the they purchased a four-foot-high sphere of hand- shaped beeswax (the Vince Lombardi Ball of Wax). And, was a custom mold involved as well? That would be indeed be expensive and the only place that I know that would be capable of such a waxing endeavor would be that world renown candle manufacturing company in Medina, Ohio! :} Happy New Year! Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC (Where 11 = 3, Jim?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:53:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Suzannne Geisler Subject: stinky goldenrod honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had complained a couple of weeks ago about my goldenrod honey. We were = unable to give some away for Christmas gifts because it was too smelly.=20 I did a little searching in the archives and found a suggestion to put = the jars of solid honey in the dishwasher and run it to liquefy it = again. It was stated that the temperature would damage the honey and = change the taste. That was OK with me because no one would eat it = anyway. I put the honey in and ran it on a normal wash cycle (with out = the drying ).=20 It worked great! The honey is liquid and dark golden in color (but = cloudy). The flavor is much more mellow. I guess I could give away some = now, but my husband and I gave away a store brand clover honey and = pretended it was ours! Next year will be the real thing. Suzanne Geilser (don't tell!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:31:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America In-Reply-To: <005a01c3ce27$9bc6f6a0$1bb85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Currently there is no Maximum Residue > Level (MRL) for oxalic acid in honey so the CFIA > operates on zero > tolerance. ... which is unapplicable since honeys naturally contain OA, concentrations varying from floral sources. If they try to persecut with such argument they will lose the case in court. My experience as a person who wrote by-laws, conducted public consultations and provide technical data to persecut companies is : when you want to bite, make sure you have the sharp teeth and a large mouth enough. When you just enlarge your feathers as a bird to look big, you lose your credibility sooner or later. Anyway, this "position of principe" does not make sense in this particular case. They are several wagons behind the train but refuse to assume responsablities for beeing late... I already had this discussion with a provincial representativ here. I understand they have the best willingness as possible but no money to perform the job. Well, but institutions have to bear responsabilities for their lack of means, and their consequent lack of action. Each year spent, the price is paid by beekeepers, it does not make sense, IMHO. Most of the work is done, if not all. It does not cost 30 000$ for a bibliographic review and obtaining documents from Europeans. We currently use others works to develop laws and by-laws, particulary in Canada. I could multiply examples in the pharmaceutical sector with Healt Canada. Most HC pharmaceutic guides are essentially copied from an American/European/Japanese harmonization committee. > There is a risk that beekeepers may be applying > too much product or mistiming the treatments. > Without an official method, > honey may become contaminated through inappropriate > use of the product. The risk exist as well with approuved products with official recommandations. If they publish recommandations, the best. If they do not, they have to assume the resposabilities for this lack of diligent action. OA is officialy in use for several years in many european countries now. Diligent is a sweet euphemism, and I do not want to know if it is a provincial or federal jurisdiction. They just have to do it. Hervé _________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:05:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Beeswax and football... Comments: To: Kim Flottum To: Kim and the List, I just wonder where the they purchased a four-foot-high sphere of hand- shaped beeswax (the Vince Lombardi Ball of Wax). And, was a custom mold involved as well? That would be indeed be expensive and the only place that I know that would be capable of such a waxing endeavor would be that world renown candle manufacturing company in Medina, Ohio! :} Happy New Year! Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC (Where 11 = 2, Jim?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 11:54:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Commercial Oxalic Evaporation Methods and Approvals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But. We are not talking about a benign chemical. If you are going to > use it in an evaporator, unless you dress accordingly and have a > respirator, you are in about as much danger as the mites you are > treating. This is the kind of thing that needs to be resolved, just as much as residue fears, and why some money needs to be spent in North America to obtain, translate, analyse and generally adapt the European material to North American conditions and sensitivities. While some things may be overlooked in one jurisdiction, they may be carefully scrutinized and strongly regulated just over the fence. Worker safety and transportation rules differ around the world. In Europe, I would guess that most beekeepers do not have staff that is covered under workers compensation, yet in North America, thousands of outfits have hired help. This is a big consideration for commercial outfits planning to employ a chemical. I notice that whenever we discuss legality and approvals, and other such topics, confusion reigns. People state directly opposing opinions and understandings, and often, it seems all are correct to some extent. It seems that some people are carrying on with a practice publicly for years, yet someone else is being charged or given a hassle by authorities. In the past, a blind eye has been turned to many such practices, but this is a new world; scrutiny is coming to bear on everything we do, and, as we can see in politics, ultimately there are no secrets. It is therefore increasingly important that, before using chemicals and techniques that might be questionable or have a risk component that all possible authorities be alerted, and consulted if possible. By being upfront and dealing with the objections and fears ahead of time, we make additional work and expense for ourselves, but then have the assurance that our products will be saleable, and that we are not in line for a lawsuit or legal action of some sort or another. By consulting with all the various authorities and receiving input, issues may be identified that have not previously been raised, and all potential opponents brought on side. I'm also sure that an improved application method can be devised to replace the crude and awkward evaporators on the market today that risk operator exposure to the vapour by their very design. Proper design would reduce the danger to operators and increase the consistency of application. The unit shown so clearly at http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-1-nf.htm, while being OK for a single-operator outfit with a few hives to treat, is lacking for a large outfit with hired help and thousands of hives to manage. http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2002/diary111002.htm#oxalic shows an initial attempt at an applicator designed for commercial use. It is big and clumsy, but could be refined in mass production. The operator -- a well respected beekeeper -- assures me that, so far, he has seen good control using it experimentally over one year. He tested with strips on a sample of the treated hives a year after the first use, and found that there were few mites this fall, without having used any other treatment whatsoever. So, it works for him. We need to smooth off the rough edges, prove that it is safe, and works in more places than his yards, get oxalic approved for general use, and start to benefit. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:06:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: stinky goldenrod honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I produced some honey that I would not give to anyone, let alone sell it. I did this for years until I got some sites that produced the quality that I wanted. I moved most of my hives to that site. This was many years ago and each year since has produced a little different honey each time form that site. I started to mark the frames that were capped each month with a marker (the bees don't like the smell of a marker). Taking a sample of frames each month to extract and see what the honey was like. Balancing that honey with the bloom in the area the month before, I found the best for each site. I tried to plant to get the better honey with little success. Some of the red honey was only good for BBQ honey mix. Michael Housel Orlandobee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:50:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Commercial Oxalic Evaporation Methods and Approvals In-Reply-To: <010e01c3ce3d$3a2e0fd0$1bb85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > I'm also sure that an improved application method can be devised to > replace the crude and awkward evaporators on the market today that risk > operator exposure to the vapour by their very design. Proper design > would reduce the danger to operators and increase the consistency of > application. The unit shown so clearly at > http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-1-nf.htm, while > being OK for a single-operator outfit with a few hives to treat, is > lacking for a large outfit with hired help and thousands of hives to > manage. > > http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2002/diary111002.htm#oxalic shows an > initial attempt at an applicator designed for commercial use. It is > big and clumsy, but could be refined in mass production. A good design would have an automatic dispenser of just the right amount and the ability to push a trigger and dispense the vapor but do so safely. A couple of suggestions. The first is fairly easy. Make up pills of oxalic acid, one per dose (I think someone has done this, but not sure). Stack the pills in a magazine and inset the magazine into the vaporizer (new idea). The second problem, safety, could be overcome by a male/female attachment. The hive would have the female and the applicator the male, so you plug the applicators nozzle in the hive receptor and fire away. The applicator would have a safe interlock that would not allow it to fire unless plugged into the hive (like a nail gun that needs to be in contact with the surface to fire). The acid does not need to be delivered low in the hive. It can also be at the top. The third is the method of applying heat to the pill. Since the trigger released the pill to the heated surface, the flame could be constant but a low level heat, such as a propane flame from a bunsen type burner. When the pill is released, a timer starts and rings when the applicator can be removed. If removed early, it could also sound a warning. The applicator could even be designed to support itself when attached to the hive, so the operator could have their hands free to button up the hive, fire the applicator and go to the next hive with another applicator. Hook it up, fire, and remove the other one for the next hive. I would think that this would result in a smaller applicator that would be fairly safe, easy to use and able to treat many hives at a commercial level. I love open source software, so any ideas here are free. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:54:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If they try to persecut with such argument > they will lose the case in court. CFIA has already scared off a Canadian supplier of oxalic evaporators who was advertising in the web (and by SPAM). They forced him to take all references to Canada off his site. He sells evaporators to the US and Europe, but not Canada. See http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/ > I already had this discussion with a provincial > representativ here. I don't know if things are different in Quebec. > Most of the work is done, if not all. It does not cost > 30 000$ for a bibliographic review and obtaining > documents from Europeans. Well, translation costs money, ($15,00 to translate into French, then another $15,000 to translate it back into English ) as does lobbying, travel, phone calls, and wages or per diems, not to mention possible research and lab work to confirm some of the material to local standards. > We currently use others > works to develop laws and by-laws, particulary in > Canada. I could multiply examples in the > pharmaceutical sector with Healt Canada. Most HC > pharmaceutic guides are essentially copied from an > American/European/Japanese harmonization committee. I'll bet that the process costs money, though. The quicker you want approval, too, the more it costs. > The risk exist as well with approuved products with > official recommandations. If they publish > recommandations, the best. If they do not, they have > to assume the resposabilities for this lack of > diligent action. OA is officialy in use for several > years in many european countries now. Diligent is a > sweet euphemism, and I do not want to know if it is a > provincial or federal jurisdiction. They just have to > do it. I agree. There is little excuse not to proceed, but being obviously right does not guarantee results. For example, Alberta reportedly spent $10,000 recently on a meeting in Kelowna to deal with the issue of queen importations and yet the matter is still hung up. The case is crystal clear, yet the authorities do not act. Last year, there was a hang-up in the same process over translation to French, apparently. It takes very little to keep things in limbo. What seems obvious to you and me becomes less obvious once it enters the bizarre and distorted realm of politics, the regulators, and the beaurocracy, where normal laws of logic and even physics do not seem to apply consistently. The status quo has amazing inertia, and, oftentimes, all it takes is a few loud and illogical objectors to stall even the most beneficial change. BTW, (totally off topic -- or maybe not) if you want something to ponder over your supper, read the last paragraph of this article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031229.wxcow1229/BNStory/Front (watch the wrap) allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:39:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Oxalic Acid approval in Canada In-Reply-To: <000801c3ca06$1aa34cb0$0100a8c0@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >This is the kind of thing that needs to be resolved, >just as much as >residue fears, It seems several swiss studies are on-line or published about that matter. >While some things may be overlooked in one >jurisdiction, they may be >carefully scrutinized and strongly regulated just >over the fence. >Worker safety This is provincial jurisdiction without link with product approval for bees. Approval or not approval, Health & Safety provincial laws will remain unchanged, and one has to respect them right now. So, this is not an argument to delay approval (which focuses on food safety) at the federal level. > transportation rules differ around the world. In fact, I am afraid it differs between provinces. This is a shared jurisdiction as far as I know, so more complicated. But I think I remember there is an exemption below 5kg (which would represent a lot of hives), at least in Quebec. Anyway, oxalic acid is already in the country for several applications. I can found OA in any lab supplier, so transport issue should not be so new. Not a reason to delay its use for bees. In fact, this chemical transportation issue seems far out of the mandate of Health Canada, once again. >In >Europe, I would guess that most beekeepers do not >have staff that is >covered under workers compensation. H&S laws applies as well. And so responsabilities to respect them. Compensation occur also when employees are sick because of working conditions. But legal contexts are different. But I repeat, there is no direct link with product approval for bees. Those two aspects are considered in two different jurisdictions. Approval or not approval for bees, H&S laws are already in force and will remain. >scrutiny is coming to bear on >everything we do, and, as we can see in politics, >ultimately there are >no secrets. I hope this time is coming fast. But, I sincerely think authorities have the duty the take required means and diligent action to fullfill their mandate... or they have to take responsabilities for delays. Nowadays, others pay the price for delay. >By consulting with all the various authorities and >receiving input, >issues may be identified that have not previously >been raised, and all >potential opponents brought on side. All true and fair. But it could be a long process if no pression is on all those levels of authority. My little experience is : it is better to negociate with authorities separately. Altogether, it is impossible to get a decision out of the pack. Hervé _________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:02:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 29/12/03 05:00:59 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > The whole point is that oxalic treatment is not very effective until there > is little or no brood and, by delaying treatment until then, the young bees > that we need to overwinter will have been infested with varroa. So if your monitoring tells you that the brood is heavily infested with Varroa, why not take it out and freeze it and treat with oxalic or whatever else is legal and appropriate when the only mites in the colony will be phoretic? The bees will recover better from a brief broodless period and no mites than from having the mitey brood emerge and endure a more prolonged treatment later in the year. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:18:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL Subject: Re: What did you do at Christmas? In-Reply-To: <000501c3ce0c$3f0b4b20$8f98c3d8@homebase> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Dewey wrote: > My 10 year old daughter on the other hand received a hive tool and a box > of wood. Our father/daughter project for the winter is assembling two > deeps and 40 frames! The Assistant Bee Keeper gets her own bees this > spring!! Enjoy & take lots of pictures... My daughter was about 10 when we started our beekeeping and we've had some great times checking the bees & occasionally running away, arms waving wildly in the air. Now at 15, her interest in hanging out with dad in the bee yard isn't quite as keen, but when her school buddies see pictures of her suited up holding a frame full of bees, they are awed, at least I *think* that's what they mean when they say 'whoa that's awwwsome, dude'. Then again, they might be referring to the picture next to it where she is terminating a B34 with her G29... :) AL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 21:55:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hope to build up some super strong > hives for next year. The drought 2 years ago, then the LONG winter, then WET WET > year took their toll on the number of colonies. > > Russ Dean Same here. Last winter and spring just about wiped me out. Hoping to split this spring and build up again. My 6 year old son and I were replacing wax in 7 deeps today and I had to start a fire, not because it was cold but because it is damp. It's raining here tonight..but I did wash the truck today :) I can't ever remember washing a vehicle on the last week in December. Kent Eastern Ontario Canada :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:14:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid approval In-Reply-To: <20031229223923.26375.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All the discussion regarding O.A. and registration is most interesting esp. when relating to beekeepers and associate workers. Dribble, pour and evaporate - each having merits and operational disadvantages. So, why no discussion about the OXAMITE STRIP. Previously there was quite a bit of noise about this product and the use of strip application - easy and clean. Why has it not been mentioned, as it seems to me a logical application process, if/when the acid is allowed in colonies. Have I missed something? Fair amount of snow lying around from the falls over the last few days. Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 07:22:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris asked: > So if your monitoring tells you that the brood is heavily infested with > Varroa, why not take it out and freeze it and treat with oxalic or whatever else is > legal and appropriate when the only mites in the colony will be phoretic? The > bees will recover better from a brief broodless period and no mites than from > having the mitey brood emerge and endure a more prolonged treatment later in > the year. By treating as the correct time, i.e. as soon as the crop is removed, we avoid heavily infested brood. If brood is heavily infested in late autumn then it will be too late to do anything - the bees that we need for overwintering will have been lost and it will be too late for the colony to rear more. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:32:59 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: What did you do at Christmas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whilst I have no hope of matching what beset Murray for Christmas, thought I would let you with the white Christmas know what it is like without a white Christmas. The couple of days before Christmas were very hot. Got to 40 degrees celcius on one day. Others around 35-36. On Christmas thought I should get an early start as they said it was to be another hot day. Not sure if you can trust those weather bureau men. After all they say economists were only invented to make the weather men look good. Down to the shed and for the next three or four hours got the cell builders ready. We use the Cloake method. By the time I finished it was around 34 and up for Christmas lunch. Was very good. The afternoon was so hot decided to leave the bees alone. Boxing Day down to the shed early to graft into the cell builders. Going to be another hot one they tell us. Finished grafting mid morning and the temperature was around 36. Decided to leave the bees alone for the afternoon as it was again very hot. Next year it will be great and I will be able to have Christmas Day off as it falls on a Saturday. The one disadvantage with queen rearing is that it is set jobs for set days no matter whether it rains, hails, shines or is Christmas Day. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 10:57:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: Bobs two queen system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Doug Henry" What does a long hive look like? Can you provide a URLfor a site that has a photo? I have not set up a site myself. Graham White shows the DIY hive he made from my plans on his site http://mysite.freeserve.com/longdeephive together with a description. The booklet I send out by post if requested has some dozen pics - but B/W only. Unforetunately sending the full colour version by e-mail takes too long on my primitive set up. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:07:59 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Seppo Korpela Subject: Re: The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America In-Reply-To: <20031230050402.146468E98E@pegasos.mtt.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT > Currently there is no Maximum Residue > Level (MRL) for oxalic acid in honey so the CFIA operates on zero > tolerance. While oxalic acid remains unregistered, Provincial Apiarists > and government extension apiculturists cannot make any recommendations for > dosage or application rate. Oxalic acid has been used widely in EU, although not always legally, as OA has not been included in the Annex II of Council regulation N° 2377/90 (see www.apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/ 2003/multinelli_1.pdf for registration procedures for veterinary medicinal products in EU). However, the european beekeeping organizations and research institutes have had a common effort to get OA registered in EU. Dr Eva Rademacher has been in charge for this. Now, as a Christmas present, she informed that "The CVMP (meeting of 9-10 December 2003) agreed to recommend the inclusion of oxalic acid in honey bees in Annex II of Council regulation N° 2377/90, without further questions." The decision can be seen at http://www.emea.eu.int/pdfs/vet/press/pr/112903en.pdf :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 10:17:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Forms of Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone, I forget who, said they wished it was available in pill form. I am pleased to advise it is! If I remember correctly, many parasites of fish thrive in water that has a relatively high ph. Part of their ability to thrive is that the natural body mechanisms to combat these parasites do not work well in high ph water. Oxalic acid is routinely used to drop the ph of the water and at least one company puts it in a 'pill' form to let it be thrown into ponds. I had a jar of this stuff around here within the past 5 years...unfortunately, I long ago disposed of it. For those inclined to spent the time looking for it, the US has a huge goldfish industry in North Carolina (some operations are so large they weekly ship full tanker loads to customers) and, of course, the southern states support tens of thousands of acres of catfish farming. The EPA/USDA has approved a very short list of chemicals that can be used to combat parasites on fish and forms of oxalic acid are among them. Good luck. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 10:27:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Oxalic acid strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone tried the strips shown at http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/new_oxamite.htm? Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 08:34:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Re: The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > ...the Annex II of Council regulation N° 2377/90 (see > www.apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/ 2003/multinelli_1.pdf Should be www.apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/2003/multinelli_1.pdf :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:54:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America Comments: cc: chc-ccm@telusplanet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allen said" The status quo has amazing inertia, and, oftentimes, all it takes is a few loud and illogical objectors to stall even the most beneficial change" Thanks Allen for your reply I have been involved in arranging for getting the data from Europe. The European colleagues were generous to allow sharing with us all published and unpublished data. Canada will pay for getting these data based on the number of hives in the same way that any European country paid for sharing the costs of registration. If the information is available on the net and it will not cost money as suggested, the CHC would not request any money. The requested money also will pay for a professional person to get the application done and the application fees, translations, etc. Yes, anyone can walk to the drug store and get the product, but it is illegal to apply it in the hives. For the very same reason, its availability makes a bee supplier reluctant to pay to get the product registered. Therefore, the CHC is stepping in to help the industry and bee suppliers obtain OA for legal use. We would like to make sure that beekeepers would not be subject to any legal action from the regulators. There are regulations administered by the Pest Management Regulatory Agency (PMRA), we have to follow these regulations to get the proper registration of OA in Canada. Based on work from Quebec colleagues, the PMRA accepted the advice of Provincial Apiculturists and the CHC to allow the data from Europe and the limited data from Canada (Nasr 2001& 2002; Skinner 2002 & 2003; Giovenazzo (Quebec) 2003) in support of an application to register the OA in Canada. In a nutshell, we have been working hard on this issue on behalf of the beekeeping industry. I hope that the Canadian beekeepers will stand to support the OA registration as the European beekeepers and their governments have done in Europe. Happy Holidays Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Alberta Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 10:02:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Oxalic acid strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lloyd asked "Has anyone tried the OA strips?" I would be interested to see published research results of evaluating the efficacy of the OA strips. I heard in a recent meeting that the efficacy of the strips was very low in comparison to the oxalic acid fumes or dripping of liquid acid on bees. The low efficacy of the strips could be the result of bees not getting enough material to cover their body. So far, sublimation of OA or dripping of OA in sugar syrup are the most effective methods of controlling the mites. medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca Has anyone tried the strips shown at http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/new_oxamite.htm? Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:19:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: oxalic acid approval - Canada In-Reply-To: <000801c3ca06$1aa34cb0$0100a8c0@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I understand authorities are working hard on that subject. My - a bit vigorous - reaction comes from the fact I use OA in Canada. Moreover, as I took the way of transparancy and traceability, this fact is even clearly decalred on my web site. I invested time and money to get informed of legal porcedure to apply it elsewhere, recommandations, safety data sheet, to get the varrox vaporizer, etc. I adhered to IPM, monitored varroa each week, treated when needed and when there were possiby no brood, and so on. So I think I fallowed the official message and leitmotiv : IPM, IPM, IPM. This was just before Apistan resistance here, 2 years ago. And, in the same time, I am threatened of persecution if I use OA by the same people promoting alternance in chemical, IPM et tutti quanti. Since no official position has been decided, one applies "a zero tolerance policy". It seems to me this is double - non consistent - policy. If I were told : " OK, we still have to work on OA before official aproval, we urge you to be very careful when using it, but it seems at first glance there is no major food risk", I woul be less "over-reactiv". This double policy is like not having done his homework in due time, but refusing to endorse responsabilities for beeing late. Some kind of commmunication mistake, isn't it ? After last winter losses, I have seen many beekeepers rushing on different products (AF, thymol, FGMO, AO, etc.). Applications were not always good (just considere AF example in Quebec), people were not familiar with those products, did not take time to understand their action. I guess some will lose trust in alternativ products. Finally, this will run against IPM. If those products would have been known here before (let say 2 or 3 years), with official methods of application, people would have had time to use it on some hives first, ask questions and adapt their procedure. That is why I think "actual zero tolerence" about OA, as mentionned by Allen, is not a reasonnable policy and is a communication mistake. Bon courage quand même !! Hervé _________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:01:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The European colleagues were generous to allow sharing with us all > published and unpublished data. Canada will pay for getting these > data based on the number of hives in the same way that any European > country paid for sharing the costs of registration. > There are regulations administered by the Pest Management Regulatory > Agency (PMRA), we have to follow these regulations to get the proper > registration of OA in Canada. Based on work from Quebec colleagues, > the PMRA accepted the advice of Provincial Apiculturists and the CHC > to allow the data from Europe and the limited data from Canada (Nasr > 2001& 2002; Skinner 2002 & 2003; Giovenazzo (Quebec) 2003) in support > of an application to register the OA in Canada... Thanks, Medhat, for giving us the facts on this. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the US beekeepers got on side with us on this and worked to get approval at the same time we are going through the process? The cost might be spread out even more beekeepers, and, in the end, we would all be playing with the same deck of cards. C'mon US people. Write and phone your associations and representaives and let's all work together on this. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:07:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Oxalic Approval/Pesticides in N. America - let's meet in TX and in FL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In response to Alan's comments: Dan Mayer and I will both be at the ABF meetings, and I'll be at the AHP and ABR meetings, also. We're most interested in talking to people about the alleged pesticide problems in the U.S. and Canada, and about our recent establishment of a pesticide testing/investigation/consulting Institute to serve the North American beekeeping industry. This registration of the product seems like a topic that may fit in with our goals. In addition, we may be able to focus more attention on this subject at the Pesticide State of the Nation Forum that we will host in conjunction with the Western Apiculture meeting in Missoula, MT, July, 2004. Maybe we can arrange for a meeting of interested parties at the ABF and AHP meetings - say a breakfast? Since I'll be at both meetings, when I'm on travel I use beeresearch@aol.com for my e-mail, not this address, and I carry a cell phone 40-6-544-9007. I arrive late Wednesday in San Antonio, will be in FL for the full meeting. Thanks Jerry Bromenshenk University of MT and Bee Alert Tech, Inc. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:17:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Oxalic acid strips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would be interested to see published research results of evaluating > the efficacy of the OA strips. > > I heard in a recent meeting that the efficacy of the strips was very > low in comparison to the oxalic acid fumes or dripping of liquid acid > on bees. I heard the same thing in sci.agriculture.beekeeping, as I recall, but then, I also heard of some failures with the evaporation method too, on that same newsgroup. A person never really knows when dealing with anecdotal evidence, unless the stories all line up to present an overwhelming case. The widely varying methods and lack of clearly documented observations make the oxalic tales told there interesting, and sometimes sobering, but they really don't tell us much, except that these methods can fail, especially if approached in a less than scientific way and with clear notions of what thay can and cannot do. The Canadian manufacturer of an oxalic evaporator, recently mentioned here on BEE-L, weighed into that discussion and it sounded as if he had lots of varroa, and had found it necessary to do multiple treatments. When all the dust cleared, I had learned very little, except that we need to observe carefully and be careful when we try to establish cause and effect, and, again, that oxalic application is not as simple and complete a 'cure' as some other current methods. Of course, Apistan and Checkmite+ have failures, too, even where resistance is not the problem, but we don't hear a lot about them. As for the Oxamite strips shown on the same site, I really do not know. I assume that they worked for someone, somewhere, or appeared to do so. FWIW, my neighbours tried a similar method using oxalic (dissolved in some carrier which I forget) in paper towel, learned from an European magazine, and reported little or no effect on the varroa. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 14:50:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America Allen asked and stated: "Wouldn't it be wonderful if the US beekeepers got on side with us on this and worked to get approval at the same time we are going through the process? The cost might be spread out even more beekeepers, and, in the end, we would all be playing with the same deck of cards. C'mon US people. Write and phone your associations and representaives and let's all work together on this." Thanks Allen, it would be wonderfull! Even though the FDA has a gauntlet of rules and procedures for attaining approvals and registration of pesticides which requires time and money -just ask Steve Forrest of Brushy Mountain Bee Farm - it would be great if someone in this country would take the ball and publicly announce their intentions. Such action could very well generate a cheering section which could help put pressure on the EPA as well as preparation of a loyal customer base. My personal position in this matter, oxalic acid and the legal introduction of new miticides, and formalization of new methods of integrated hive management is quite proactive; however, I have been told over and over again by MANY KNOWLEDGEABLE FOLKS that the EPA has the opinion that beekeepers in general are a bunch of unreliable pesticide applicators because they use homemade remedies, do not bother to remove pesticides and medications as required, and/or they improperly apply legally approved pesticides. Those of you that have been around a while are more privileged to such conversations than some of the new folks that may be reading this post. I doubt that anyone on this list would be involved with such matters so please do not take these comments personally. It is sad to say that a few folks are able to hurt an entire industry; and at the same time, I as a very carefull procedural attending beekeeper am also to blame for not always correcting references to improper procedures at beemeetings and the like. IMHO the improper use of pesticides in the US exists and it is quite common. That said, as long as there are effective ways to apply non-approved illegal miticides in a less expensive manner, as long as some beekeepers are uneducated and or lazy in the proper removal of pesticides from the hive, as long as the FDA does not crack down on pesticide residuals from honey on store shelves, as long as there are negligent beekeepers this attitude that exists at the FDA will remain. It is very unfortunate that such an attitude exists as there are a whole lot more better beekeepers who go by the book than those few who break the rules. Unfortunately the more dangerous pesticides, from the standpoint of safe handling and application as well as residual amounts in food, receive the most caution from the FDA. Never-the-less as Allen and others have written, "we need a toolbox full of different miticides as well as genetic remedies to combat the Varroa, and we need development and approval of same in an expeditious manner; our industry depends upon it! Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:09:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: So if your monitoring tells you that the brood is heavily infested with Varroa, why not take it out and freeze it and treat with oxalic or whatever else is legal and appropriate when the only mites in the colony will be phoretic? If you're going to go to all that trouble, why not just use sucrose octonoate and you don't have to worry about the effects of OA on human beings, including the beekeeper? Mike in Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:15:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The weather has been really nice here the last couple of days. Temps have been close to 70 F (20 C) and today I was out working in shirt sleeves (albeit long sleeves). It's supposed to be pretty nice New Year's Day also so am planning to finish up some late extracting. (No heat in the extracting room) Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:29:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Allen wrote, "C'mon US people. Write and phone your associations and representaives and let's all work together on this." Seems it would be a pretty easy matter to present the case to and get a resolution from the American Beekeeping Federation at the January 14-16, 2004 convention in support of following through on the procedures required to get oxalic acid approved for use in bee hives. Same from the American Honey Producers Association convention from Jan 6-10, 2004. Wouldn't it be nice to see the big boys work together for a change? I must confess that I personally do not know the hoops and hurtles, but if the work's been done in Europe and the data is readily available, a resolution (which after all is only the voicing of an idea) should be a simple matter. If the resolution can be backed up with $$$, then all the better. Seems such a resolution would be a better use of energy than the endless feuding over a national honey board. Jim could probably weave a few "whereas"es and "Wherefore"s together and end up with a "Therefore be it resolved that the Association/Federation of choice wholeheartedly supports the registration of formic acid to be used as an agent in honey bee hives to combat varroa mites." Done! Wasn't that simple? Having stated the idea, beekeepeers may or may not line up with their checkbooks to back the idea with bucks. But the first step is in the stating of the idea. Any offers of help for wording of said resolutions? Aaron Morris - thinking great achievements start with the voicing of an idea! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:26:35 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America Aaron said: > Jim could probably weave a few "whereas"es and > "Wherefore"s together... Yeah, jim could, but jim is no longer even a member of the ABF. (I declined to renew my membership after trying to get their support for a sane approach to managing the increased risk of importing bee diseases and pests into the USA along with imported queens/packages, but they never seemed to move from their knee-jerk position of "just say no to imports", still in denial about the existence of the WTO agreements.) Any proposal on oxalic clearly must come from an active member of the organization at hand. I see no reason why both ABF and AHPA could not pass resolutions on this matter in short order, but I thought the same about the diseases/pests issue. A better bet might be to leverage the Eastern Apicultural Society, the Western Apicultural Society, and the Heartland Apicultural Society. EAS is already committed to getting involved in gaining approval for certain items as "organic use approved", so EAS may have already formed a working group. EAS, HAS, and WAS have a majority of hobbyist members, and it must be understood that hobbyists are more likely to have the time and desire to experiment with things like oxalic. (Commercial beekeepers can't and should not want to "experiment" with something that some regulators view as a risk to both the beekeeper and the crop. No one wants problems with the FDA and OSHA at the same time!) As I recall Aaron, you are (or were) a big-wig in EAS, so you might be a credible source of the proposal. I am just another random beekeeper, and neither hold nor seek any official position in any group. But, if anyone needs a ghost-writer, I can type fast. jim (To understand just how weird things have gotten, you have to see an SUV parked next to a Mini Cooper) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:02:02 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: What did you do at Christmas? T'was the night before Christmas, and down in each hive, we hoped bees were stirring, we prayed they were alive. The stores had been stacked in fall with great care, in hopes that the clusters would not form elsewhere. The veils and hive tools all hung on their hooks, as in winter beekeepers work wood and read books. With mamma baking bread, and me with a single-malt, we would say of any dead-outs "clearly not our fault". When out in the fields - a sound like a rock smashing rock, I spilled my drink, dropped my book, and loaded a Glock. Out the door sprang the dog like a guided cruise missile. I followed, wading through the burdock and thistle. The moon was "new", which meant no moon at all. It was darker and blacker than the devil's back hall. But night-vision goggles are light-weight and cheap. I slowly moved forward - the dog made not a peep. When, what to my wondering eyes should appear, not a sleigh, not a fat guy, no reindeer, no plain deer. I knew in a moment, it had to be a bear, the hives were all scattered, some here, and some there. I thought to myself, "This just cannot do! Mr. Bear, I must choose, and it ain't gonna be you." This was a decision that was filled with great stress, but in the grand scheme, what's one bear, more or less? But the bear was THERE - a big 'un. And me with such a little gun. He turned and he saw me, or maybe it was scent. I had only a 9mm. I knew what that meant. The bear SPOKE (It was Christmas Eve midnight, when animals speak) "Gosh, don't blame me, I haven't eaten for a week. And you only brought a PISTOL? Wow, what a treat! I'll forget your silly beehives - I want fresh meat! You can shoot your pea-shooter, but you're my dinner, you must confess. After all, in the grand scheme, what's one beekeeper, more or less?" He sprang with paws splayed, his claws made the air whistle. I hoped some of me would be found - maybe gristle. ...Then I heard my wife exclaim, as the bear faded from my sight: You've fallen asleep by the fire, and on Christmas Eve night! jim (Hippo Hollandaise!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:38:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Suzannne Geisler Subject: YES they are alive! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, so forgetting the smoker was really bad, at least I know the girls = are alive! I just wanted to be sure. Suzanne Geisler 4 stings later :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:33:55 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?Windows-1252?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quite interesting to look though bee-L what’s happening in US and Canada. When I was in Apimondia in Vancouver it was easy to see how little was done about alternative varroa control in North America, and still four years later the situation is the same compared to Europe. Yes, there is improvement, but not very fast. >From my experience I would stress Allens comment which is quite true "we need a toolbox full of different miticides as well as genetic remedies to combat the Varroa, and we need development and approval of same in an expeditious manner; our industry depends upon it! “ Too many beekeepers and researchers get attached to one method or miticide that they work with. Like us in Finland. 5 years ago many of us tought that formic was the final answer, but it was not. All alternative methods have larger variation in results than hard chemicals. When we raised the amount of formic to the levels that were enough in almost all hives, we started to see unwanted effects to bees. So finally we come to the idea of combining different applications. Like Peter has said, oxalic is not helping if you have too many mites in the fall when winter bees are developing. That’s why we treat hives at this point with formic or thymol. But we use only small dosages of these and don’t get problems with dying brood from formic or large residues of thymol in hive products. For example hives with 1 langstroth box are treated with single treatment 10 g of thymol compared to Peters 4 times 8 g. So we are only able to kill about 80 % of mites at this point, which is not enough in the long run, but is able to protect developing winter bees well. By doing oxalic tricling late when there is no brood we minimize the amount if mites NEXT YEAR. This way there is no need for treatments before the end of honey season in next year. A I have told you, we have been running this in about 230 hives for 4 years now, and I can say that it works. The hives are managed by about 16 beekeepers as a part of their normal operation. Beekeepers who are willing to test for natural mite fall can often leave out formic/ thymol treatment when there is very few mites. Others must do two treatments to all of their hives. The cost of these treatments, including the work needed is not more than treatment with Apistan. Also the commercial beekeepers have adopted these treatments. Although I must say that beekeeping is small here, commercial means here 300 – 600 hives. I don’t believe that this double treatments will work in hives that have brood all the year around. But it will work in many parts of Europe and Northern America. Ari Seppälä Central Finland 62 N 24,5 E :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:39:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ari wrote: 'Like Peter has said, oxalic is not helping if you have too many mites in the fall when winter bees are developing. That’s why we treat hives at this point with formic or thymol. But we use only small dosages of these and don’ t get problems with dying brood from formic or large residues of thymol in hive products. For example hives with 1 langstroth box are treated with single treatment 10 g of thymol compared to Peters 4 times 8 g.' The reason for using the four treatments of 8g at weekly intervals is to allow a complete brood cycle to emerge and therefore kill the mites that emerge from the cells. One treatment of 10g may kill phoretic mites, but this is of limited use if there are large numbers of mites in the brood cells. By treating through august, after the crop has been removed, I can be sure that there is no risk of contaminating the crop and the colony will be virtually free of mites throughout the rest of the autumn and winter; this will enable it to rear a strong population of healthy young bees for overwintering. I agree wholeheartedly with Allen's "we need a toolbox full of different miticides as well as genetic remedies..." and I would not like to be cast as a champion for thymol to the exclusion of all other treatments but, to be honest, I personally am not too keen on the alternatives available at present (with the exception of the genetic option). The synthetic pyrethroids contaminate wax very badly and will take many years to eliminate from the wax pool. Surely there are very few beekeepers who are happy to introduce these substances into their hives? Lactic acid and SOE are impractical for anyone with more than a very small number of colonies. Formic acid is very dangerous to handle, especially in the field away from running water and medical help. As Ari noted, '5 years ago many of us thought that formic was the final answer, but it was not. All alternative methods have larger variation in results than hard chemicals. When we raised the amount of formic to the levels that were enough in almost all hives, we started to see unwanted effects to bees'. Oxalic acid is extremely poisonous (the acid should not be confused with oxalates, which as is often quoted, are found naturally in spinach and rhubarb) and colonies apparently do not tolerate multiple doses well - severely limiting its usefulness as we have discussed. Whilst I am happy that the dripping method is reasonably safe both for bees and their keepers, I have grave reservations about the other methods of application. Spraying suffers from the same drawbacks as lactic and SOE in terms of practicality and, with the vaporisation methods, requires serious protective equipment for the beekeeper and I still find it difficult to believe that there is little or no contamination; spray must go into open cells and the vaporisation method apparently coats everything inside the hive with oxalic acid crystals. Thymol crystals, on the other hand, are cheap, quick and easy to apply, do not contaminate if used correctly, give excellent control without the need for other treatments, are low-hazard for the bees and their keeper, do not deteriorate in storage and do not cause resistance. Until I find something better, I intend to continue to use thymol exclusively. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:12:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I don’t believe that this double treatments will work in hives that > have brood all the year around. But it will work in many parts of > Europe and Northern America. Here is the crux of the matter. With Apistan and Checkmite+, beekeepers really have not needed to know or understand what is going on in their hives. These treatments, applied correctly and left for the requisite two brood cycles, were/are 1.) highly effective whether the hives have brood or not, and 2.) have no apparent effect on brood rearing. 3.) can be applied quite effectively almost any time that supers are not required The alternate treatments being discussed: oxalic, formic, sucrose octanoate, thymol etc... are 1.) not as lethal to mites, 2.) may not last through two brood cycles without checking, adjustment, or multiple applications 3.) may, in some cases, have adverse effects on brood 4.) have more limited as to times and circumstances where they may be practically applied Moreover, because different bee strains, and even different hives in a given yard, may have widely varying amounts of brood in fall -- or any time -- results will vary from hive to hive, and from operation to operation, and treatment to treatment. Using these alternate methods can save money and reduce risk of contamination to hives and hive products, but they do require a bit more time, a bit more management, and much more understanding. Whereas, with strips, all that was required was the (considerable sum of) money to buy them, the understanding of how to handle them safely and where and how to insert them, plus, hopefully, the attention span to remember to take them out, with these other techniques the bar is a bit higher. Oftentimes, the hives and mite levels *must* be assessed, appropriate treatment components (including sometimes application equipment or supplies) must be acquired and prepared, application must take place -- and that may involve added work over merely inserting strips -- then followup asssessments and perhaps additional applications must be made. HASMAT considerations are more complex for chemical liquids and dusts -- even essential oils -- than for prepared, labelled, and packaged strips. There are big cost savings for those who can manage all these steps and the logic involved in using acids and essential oils, but we have already seen that even a simple system like strips has exceeded the abilities of more than a few beekeepers to manage. Although we are hoping that techniques will be developed for specific regions and procedures will be clearly defined, we are facing another IQ test when we add these more complex methods to our quiver. Our best hope is that the genetic approaches will bring us to the point where our stocks are not nearly as susceptible to varroa, and chemical measures will not need to be as essential as they are today. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:42:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron & Eefje Subject: Honey bee....when??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having read about a number of bees and bee strains, their behaviour and what have you.... I would like to know from you educated guys when a bee may actually be classed a "honey bee"? What is or are the determining factor(s) here? That some honey (even how little) is stored in a comb back home? Or a certain minimal amount of stored honey? ....or even other factors?? Regards and Happy New Year, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >From Ron PE2RVM/SM6WHN Snartorp - Sweden For fast replies: Mon-Fri 08.00-17.00: ron.vanmierlo@goldenair.se or during evenings/weekends: ron-eefje@tele2.se :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::