From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:44:18 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A56C48ED1 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKlB012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0401A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 112459 Lines: 2548 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 13:53:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Varroa treatment concoctions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It seems the latest varroa control potions being discussed over the internet are oxalic acid and sucrose octanoate. ‘Control of Varroa: A Guide for New Zealand Beekeepers’ is a decent 120 page book on the different concoctions available for combating varroa and is available from the New Zealand Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. The booklet was printed a couple of years ago so doesn’t include any references to sucrose octanoate. In addition to fluvalinate, coumaphos, thymol, etc., etc., oxalic acid is covered. This caution is given on the use of oxalic acid: “As with formic acid, extreme care must be taken when handling oxalic acid because it is corrosive. A dust mask, goggles and chemical resistant gloves must be worn when handling the pure chemical, and the syrup should be mixed only in a well-ventilated room or outside.” (As Bill mentioned a few post back oxalic acid, like formic acid, is not to be handled carelessly.) Non-chemical biological treatments including icing or powdered sugar, screened bottoms, drone brood trapping, etc. are also discussed. The site below will take you directly to information on the booklet. It will probably wrap. If it does, it can be copied and pasted to your browser. http://www.maf.govt.nz/biosecurity/pests- diseases/animals/varroa/guidelines/control.htm Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 22:18:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Honey bee....when??? In-Reply-To: <001701c3cfce$181a5f60$c52765d5@ronmierl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: Ron & Eefje > I would like to know from you educated guys when a > bee may actually be classed a "honey bee"? There are at least 15 species of bees that are cultured or robbed of honey by humans. For more info, see Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/honeybee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 23:37:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Sealing concrete floors In-Reply-To: <200401011853.i01Ir4pY011078@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been lucky enough to be able to start planning for a new honey house extraction room etc. etc. in a very large Quonset. Looking up the archives for honey house construction (bearing in mind sanitation and hygiene responsibilities), the sealing of the concrete floor was mentioned by Bob Harrison. The concrete floor that is present in my affair is clean enough to eat from - for the moment. But seeing as it is not sealed, it would be silly to let the surface deteriorate. Any advice. I definitely do not wish to paint, nor apply a epoxy resin surface. Another point that comes to mind is how to seal the junction between the floor surface and the wall materials? Best wishes for the New Year to all readers and writers. :-) Peter Darlingford, Manitoba 17 km north of US/Can. border :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:45:33 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?Windows-1252?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter wrote > > The reason for using the four treatments of 8g at weekly intervals is to > allow a complete brood cycle to emerge and therefore kill the mites that > emerge from the cells. One treatment of 10g may kill phoretic mites, but > this is of limited use if there are large numbers of mites in the brood > cells. By treating through august, after the crop has been removed, I can > be sure that there is no risk of contaminating the crop and the colony will > be virtually free of mites throughout the rest of the autumn and winter; > this will enable it to rear a strong population of healthy young bees for > overwintering. Until I find something > better, I intend to continue to use thymol exclusively. There is a great danger in using only one treatment of thymol - or anything. In areas where there is beehives of many beekeepers ( or feral) within flying distance, bees quite often collect mites after the early fall treatment while robbing the colonies that are dying to mites. Oxalic in late fall takes out these unwanted latecomers, which easily kill the hive early next year. Ari Seppälä :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:40:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Sealing concrete floors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter & all > But seeing as it is not sealed, it would be silly to let the surface > deteriorate. Linseed oil, in it's 'raw' and 'boiled' forms can be used for sealing concrete. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 23:22:48 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Sealing concrete floors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The concrete floor that is present in my affair is clean enough to eat > from - for the moment. > But seeing as it is not sealed, it would be silly to let the surface > deteriorate. > Any advice. > I definitely do not wish to paint, nor apply a epoxy resin surface. Glad to see you are settled in Canada after the shift from France. You could try seamless vinyl but I wonder why you do not wish to use exopy resin. Here we use two pot epoxy to seal our concrete floors. It is a good idea to make sure it is acid etched before hand to make sure there are no calcium deposits to after the finish. We use a different colour for the undercoat compared to the top coat(s) so that if the top coat(s) wear the different colour of the undercoat shows through. > Another point that comes to mind is how to seal the junction between the > floor surface and the wall materials? Here in Australia we are required to have coving on the floor where it meets the wall. This allows easy cleaning into the corner. If you need to put a coving strip in you may need to seal the joins with some food grade sealant. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 13:08:44 +0100 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: Sealing concrete floors In-Reply-To: <3FF503B4.1080109@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Subject: [BEE-L] Sealing concrete floors Think about water duplicate times! take a look in your Bath room, then transfer this ideas to your honey house! In Denmark we have the rule that if you handle more than 500kg of honey you have to follow veterinarian/food rules concerning buildings for food possessing. which means washable floors and walls in a high of 1.8 meters. It must not be possible to place stuff in the windows openings. contact your local food authorities to see what rules goes for your location. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software since 1997 home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 08:56:11 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Sealing concrete floors One word - "epoxy". Polymers are your friend. Today at Farmageddon - 61 F Saturday - 69 F Sunday - 70 F All this warm weather, but the bees need NOTHING so early. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 09:36:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick, Allen, et al: Having written the following thoughts a while back, as I try not to speak up too often in 2004, I have been ruminating what others have, so far, to say regarding OA. Glad the old sun has finally crawled out of the pit in the winter solstice loop, however incrementally. Many of you should recall that I, being diabolically opposed to using any hard chemicals inside the hives when I was hammered hard by VD this past fall, treated mine (50) with only confection sugar to powder the girls “purrrty,” and then a modified OA spray at 30% in syrup—in part, because all my colonies are on SBB, making it difficult to keep the vapors inside for any length of time, and, in part, because I wanted to maximize the benefits of both trickling and spraying methods, let alone OA in solution is a bit safer to administer than in gaseous form. It seemed to have worked fine. Well, so far. However, one colony is already dead although I cannot pinpoint the possible cause among the myriads around this time of the year, and my gut feeling is that when I sprayed them between the frames as well as at the top of both deeps—this is long before they have clustered—I may have hit the “less-than-stalwart” queen. This is just my intuition from “knowing my bees” because after my unorthodox experimental treatment, which I am not endorsing to anyone [caveat emptor!], I could see that the bees were stressed although they would eventually recover—sometimes taking a day or two. OA at 30% is a strong poison, no doubt: wear all the protective gear (eye and nose and hands) and always *check the wind direction* before you apply. At one point during administration, for instance, I bent down on my knees to do a good job of spraying, especially along the lower corners where the bees had congregated, away from the spray. As I went down, almost following the settling vapors in the air, I felt a sharp sensation [burn] in the eye, for a few vapors came up through the cracks beneath the tight- fitting sun glasses. At that point, I stopped and washed my face and eyes by spraying water *profusely*: no matter what you do, carrying a capacity sprayer filled with fresh water, good enough to drink if thirsty, I find, is a must in beekeeping. To protect me better in the future, I now own a few pairs of 3M, disposable or washable, paper/plastic combo, white jacket- hood that has a clear plastic visor, looking like the face of space helmet. According to my reading on OA, the most serious, irreparable damage can occur to your kidney by breathing the gas in while fumigating in gaseous form. Remember, I was, and still am, really reluctant to use any treatment at all, and of course, I have yet to wait to see the overall result in the spring. That said, I have yet to go down with the ship. Well, not yet. My overall observation, from the just one-time experiment, is that the best time to use OA in *my area* is not fall, a point that has already been mentioned. Rather, it is during the dearth between the spring and the fall flow: between sumac and golden rod bloom in my neck of the woods, especially for the colonies *not on alfalfa fields*. To a large extent Carniolans shut down brood-rearing during that time and then so do Italians, though to a less extent. While researching studies on OA, I was unable to find any experiment done on the colonies on SBB, especially the efficacy of using evaporation. Holler should any of you come across one, for I need to read more. That OA cannot reach inside the capped brood, hence leaving VD survivors, does not bother me at all, for my goal is not to wipe them out, but rather help my bees learn to tolerate the buggers. The sooner, the better. Such gradual exposure will help me cull the survivors quicker, and my gumption [gum + assumption] is that a beekeeper should not have to travel all the way to Siberia to find a VD-compatible stock or pay $500 bucks for a bug. Of course, I have already set one yard aside on Experimentation Farm (650 acres on ladino clover) to stock only feral captures with zero treatment. Yoon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 09:42:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...and then a modified OA spray at 30% in syrup-in part, > because all my colonies are on SBB, making it difficult to keep the > vapors inside for any length of time, and, in part, because I wanted > to maximize the benefits of both trickling and spraying methods, let > alone OA in solution is a bit safer to administer than in gaseous > form. > ...OA at 30% is a strong poison, no doubt: wear > all the protective gear (eye and nose and hands) and always *check > the wind direction* before you apply. > > At one point during administration, for instance, I bent down on my > knees to do a good job of spraying, especially along the lower > corners where the bees had congregated, away from the spray. As I > went down, almost following the settling vapors in the air, I felt a > sharp sensation [burn] in the eye, I apologise for the long quotes, and only reproduce all the above because this is a textbook example of what never to do, and a perfect illustration of the why authorities are reluctant to approve anything except pre-packaged, idiot-proof treatments with known, limited downside risks for general beekeeping use. This is particularly true because beekeepers produce food for humans and anyone handling food must be able to be trusted to follow recommended safe practices, and not get creative with chemicals or additives. Frankly, it had not occurred to me that anyone could abuse SO, or place himself in personal danger with it, but I guess I was wrong. I recommend that everyone visit http://apis.wsu.edu/apinotes.html and read the entire page. I have recommended this site before, as there are number of very interesting articles there, some of which shed considerable light on various matters discussed here periodically. What I understand to be the text of the US label for SO is presented there, and I quote this excerpt for sober consideration: "It is a violation of Federal Law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling. Do not apply this product in a way that will contact workers or other persons, either directly or through drift. Only protected handlers may be in the area during application. For any requirements specific to your State or Tribe, consult the agency responsible for pesticide regulation". Then read again, from the top. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com "I have met the enemy, he is us" -- Pogo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 13:33:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Honey bee....when??? I think right now Apis (honey bees) contains 9 species, there are divided into 4 groups -- originally as 4 species when I learned the taxonomy in graduate school. A. mellifera* (our bees here in NA) A. cerana* -sister species of mellfiera, original host of Varroa jacobsoni A. koschenikovi A. nigrocincta A. nuluensis -- the above 3 species recently split from A. cerana (last decade) A. dorsata* -- giant honey bees A. laboriosa -- black giant bees, recognized as a new species around 1986. A. florea* -- dwarf honey bees A. andreniformis* -- black dwarf bees, recently recognized. you can see 5 species of them in my photo collection: http://photo.bees.net/gallery. simply search for the ones marked with * above. http://cyberbee.msu.edu/biology/ch1/ gives an overview of the Apis genus. Zachary Huang http://cyberbee.msu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:32:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions In-Reply-To: <017e01c3d14f$60659f00$32b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: >>...and then a modified OA spray at 30% in syrup-in part, >>because all my colonies are on SBB, making it difficult to keep the >>vapors inside for any length of time, and, in part, because I wanted >>to maximize the benefits of both trickling and spraying methods, let >>alone OA in solution is a bit safer to administer than in gaseous >>form. > > Frankly, it had not occurred to me that anyone could abuse SO, or place > himself in personal danger with it, but I guess I was wrong. A 30% solution of OA outdoes every treatment concentration that I have seen. I hope it was a 30% sugar syrup concentration, but based on the description, I think not. Plus, the comments on why it was done and the way it was done are far from anything I have read, and there is plenty to read about proper methods of application on the web. Happy to be corrected, but I understand the spray is about 30 grams of OA to 1 liter (1000 ml) of water and limited to about 3-4ml per frame side of fine mist from an atomizer, not from a household spray. The drip method is limited to 50ml per hive and is a sugar solution but well below 30%. Closer to 5%. Even at those concentrations, there is harm to bees. At 30%, in a sugar solution, and spraying them in excess of 3-4ml per side, (all incorrect applications even if OA was approved) you are weakening them to the point of non-survival. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:19:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions In-Reply-To: <3FF5C732.2010800@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 2 Jan 2004, Bill Truesdell wrote: > allen dick wrote: > >>...and then a modified OA spray at 30% in syrup-in part, > > > > Frankly, it had not occurred to me that anyone could abuse SO, or place > > himself in personal danger with it, but I guess I was wrong. > > A 30% solution of OA outdoes every treatment concentration that I have > seen. I hope it was a 30% sugar syrup concentration, but based on the I'd like to ask that people either spell out the name of the chemical being used, or use a somewhat longer contracted form. I assume that Bill Truesdell and the original poster are both talking about Oxalic Acid (OA), while Allen Dick is talking about Sucrose Octanoate (SO), which are pretty hard to get confused with each other when they are spelled out, but are easy to get mixed up when only 2-letter abbreviations are used. If abbreviations must be used, might I suggest something like Ox. Acid and Suc. Oct., at least? What with Oxalic Acid being highly corrosive and toxic, while Sucrose Octanoate is much less so, it seems to me that we really need to put in the little bit of effort to avoid getting them mixed up. Otherwise, somebody is likely to get their instructions mixed sometime, fill their pump sprayer with Oxalic Acid when the instructions were for Sucrose Octanoate, and gas themselves thoroughly. Thanks. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 16:24:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Sealing Concrete Floors Hello All, Greetings from a remote area of the Southern U.S.! Many products will serve to protect concrete but when paint/epoxy is involved I recommend acid etching. Concrete will *dust* without a sealer which is not allowed in honey processing areas by U.S. honey house codes. honey will eat up the concrete when unsealed but takes awhile and if honey is not allowed to stand quite awhile. If you are going to use a powerful power washer to clean the honey house I recommend the best epoxy you can find for concrete floors and not the water based epoxy but only my opinion. Bees are flying today. Problem in Missouri I reported on about ten days ago was coumaphos resistant varroa but as with fluvalinate resistant varroa only now in about every third hive. Good luck to Yoon in his upcoming replies! Will answer replies on my return in late Jan. as only using a friends computer! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:33:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions >I'd like to ask that people either spell out the name of the chemical >being used, or use a somewhat longer contracted form. I assume that >Bill Truesdell and the original poster are both talking about Oxalic >Acid (OA), while Allen Dick is talking about Sucrose Octanoate (SO), >which are pretty hard to get confused with each other when they are >spelled out... You are absolutely right. I missed that. As you say, the abreviations can easily be mistaken. Just goes to prove Adrian's point... ***************************************************** * "We not only believe what we see: * to some extent we see what we believe." * * Richard Gregory (1970) ***************************************************** Apologies for the confusion. But, was that OA really a 30% solution? allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 21:39:02 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ari wrote: 'There is a great danger in using only one treatment of thymol - or anything. In areas where there is beehives of many beekeepers ( or feral) within flying distance, bees quite often collect mites after the early fall treatment while robbing the colonies that are dying to mites. Oxalic in late fall takes out these unwanted latecomers, which easily kill the hive early next year.' My original strategy was to use thymol in august and then use oxalic (as a drip - for my safety!) in late autumn to clean up mites from re-invasion. However, I have found this to be unnecessary and Stephen Martin in his lecture stated the that re-invasion problem has been greatly exagerrated. Whilst this seems to be true at least for this area of the UK, others will have to make decisions based on the local conditions. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 07:59:57 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Sealing concrete floors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Linseed oil, in it's 'raw' and 'boiled' forms can be used for sealing > concrete. The only hassle with linseed oil, either raw or pale boiled, is that it is a perfect culture for growing mould in warm climates. You end up with a black looking colour on what ever surface you put it on. The mould may not be a problem in the cold climates but beware in the warmer climates. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 17:26:56 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Peter Edwards said: > ...use oxalic... in late autumn to clean up mites from re-invasion. > However, I have found this to be unnecessary and Stephen Martin in > his lecture stated the that re-invasion problem has been greatly exagerrated. That's an unexpected statement, what did Mr. Martin say? A long-term (and still ongoing) study on a reasonably large number of hives at several apiaries by Dr. Wyatt Mangum of Virginia, USA was said by Wyatt last summer to show that reinvasion (or "inter-colony drift", if you will) IS the apparent primary means for spreading varroa between hives. We should introduce these two and let them compare data. I can vouch for Wyatt's data, as he collects it all himself from mostly his own hives, and he is a math professor, so his statistical work is known-good. jim (In review of the contract, I found that I sold my soul to SANTA, a lucky typo...) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:36:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: The Re-invasion Problem has been Greatly Exaggerated? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > However, I have found this to be unnecessary and Stephen > Martin in his lecture stated the that re-invasion problem has been > greatly exaggerated. Whilst this seems to be true at least for this > area of the UK, others will have to make decisions based on the local > conditions. Precisely. I never experienced this problem, but there are few feral colonies around here, compared to the vast numbers we kept, and our winters are severe, probably eliminating potential sources. We also were fortunate not to be near many other beekeepers and, since we had low levels ourselves for unknown reasons (good management?) we never experienced the problem. Nonetheless, I have no doubt that re-invasion is a real phenomenon where the locale offers the proper conditions. Once again, we need to learn from our own experience and evaluate whether we are seeing what others report -- or not. What may be a dominant effect in one region may be almost nonexistent in another. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Is that egg on my face? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 18:36:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Sealing concrete floors In-Reply-To: <003b01c3d17b$ccca52e0$262cc2cb@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Many thanks for the replies. Here are my experiences: 1. Raw linseed oil : several individuals prepared their surfaces using this technique. Where the concrete was relatively porous, the oil was rapidly absorbed. Several coats were required. Sooty molds were a problem afterwards. 2. Epoxy resin: A prejudice against because of probable poor installation of surface. In establishments such as hardware stores, local to home, such surfaces are seen. When individuals bring in the snow from outside and it melts - the result is a real potential for broken legs, heads etc. Once you start moving, there is no stopping until you hit something. In France, a honey house that was built to demonstrate honey extraction also had an epoxy floor - but with a granular ingredient added to add grip. That it achieved, but the wax, propolis and honey were a pain to remove from the surface. Also, the gritty material was badly distributed and it resulted in a patchy finished item. 3. Concrete Paint: Blown off during pressure washer cleaning, resulting in a potential for honey contamination. As suggested, I shall get in contact with the relevant authorities to hear what advice they give. Then when all is in place -I shall pass on my thoughts. Trevor, your floor level cooing strips. Fine for removing the tight corner problem at floor level - but how is the junction between the coving and the floor / wall achieved. Do you use a "shower" type mastic (acrylic)? Peter Rather chilly at -22° C, snowing, with a breeze of 25 kph. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 20:58:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: yoonytoons Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Correction on that 30%: Having posted earlier respond to soon, I realize that I may have confused still some more regarding the “30%” concoction. I meant to say 30 gram Oxalic per liter (abbreviated in quart in my case) according to the following recipe: “The dosage of the oxalic acid in the trickling method had to be reduced from originally 60g to 35g oxalic acid dihydrate per liter sugar syrup (1 part sugar + 1 part water), without an appreciable decrease of efficacy. At the same time, the bee tolerance of the trickling method was considerably increased.” Below is the original source: http://www.apis.admin.ch/english/Themes/Varroa.htm A litter is *about* a quart; hence 30 gram of OA in a quart of syrup is the measure I used; therefore, 30% was inaccurate. Since measuring 30 gram per every quart of syrup was tedious, I used two-gallon syrup with 240 gram OA in one batch. Jim, help me with my math! (Please note that my 30 gram is less than the recommended 35 gram) Yoon Dick, you did not confuse anybody: I did. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 21:16:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions Comments: To: yoonytoons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yoon mentioned: ".....and then a modified OA spray at 30% in syrup—in part, because all my colonies are on SBB, making it difficult to keep the vapors inside for any length of time, and, in part, because I wanted to maximize the benefits of both trickling and spraying methods, let alone OA in solution is a bit safer to administer than in gaseous form." and "OA at 30% is a strong poison, no doubt: wear all the protective gear (eye and nose and hands) and always *check the wind direction* before you apply." and also " At one point during administration... As I went down, almost following the settling vapors in the air, I felt a sharp sensation [burn] in the eye, for a few vapors came up through the cracks beneath the tight- fitting sun glasses. At that point, I stopped and washed my face and eyes...." Yoon, I give the following comments in hopes that others will read and take light of this posting as well as my posting of December 30, 2003, Re: [BEE-L] The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America, http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0312e&L=bee-l&P=4041. 1) Place a cut-out piece of cardboard or heavy paper over the screened bottom board, SBB, thus saving the need to modify directions for using the oxalic acid, OA. 2) Adding a syrup solution to the OA results in an oxalic acid and syrup mixture when dried is a residue almost completely distributed within the hive(s); I do not know what the consequences of the resulting mixture will have, perhaps you could let us know the outcome of your application. I do know that the bees will want to take up the syrup residue, which also contains the OA. IMO here is a prime case of modification of application and the use of an unapproved pesticide. YOON, there are people besides beekeepers who read this List! 3) I do not believe that anyone on this List has said anything as direct, pointed, and as sharp as my comments about Beekeepers misusing pesticides and how the FDA looks at Beekeepers as my last post which is referenced above. I have posted on this List in the past about proper pesticide usage; and have made note of the necessity of reading the labels and the Material Safety Data Sheet, MSDS. I remain an advocate of the proper and legal use of pesticides and I encourage the same to all. If my words seem harsh it is because I am concerned about health and safety. The above example, IMHO, is just one reason why the FDA has a real concern in approving pesticides for Beekeeping operations and when new pesticides are indeed approved, the methods of application are often as simple and as foolproof as possible. Yoon, I sincerely hope that you received no permanent damage to either your eyes or your lungs by using OA in the manner that you described. I also hope that the situation as you described will not happen to another beekeeper reading this List or hearing about Oxalic Acid administration from another source that referenced this List. With Sincere Respect to All, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 21:19:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy Eisele wrote: > If abbreviations must be used, might I suggest something > like Ox. Acid and Suc. Oct., at least? Afaict & cmiiw, ot1h its true, so it was ntg for me to abbrev the OA so iou inpo, ftbomh, sorry & do bttr. eom BT Bth,ME :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:17:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Sealing concrete floors In-Reply-To: <3FF60E8E.7080003@mts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:36 PM 1/2/2004, you wrote: >2. Epoxy resin: A prejudice against because of probable poor >installation of surface. Once you start moving, there is no stopping >until you hit something. There are additives that will make it a non slip surface. The ones I've seen look like a material similar to sand in consistency was added to the epoxy. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:30:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: yoonytoons > Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions > > A litter is *about* a quart; hence 30 gram of OA in a quart of syrup is > the measure I used; therefore, 30% was inaccurate. Since measuring 30 > gram per every quart of syrup was tedious, I used two-gallon syrup with > 240 gram OA in one batch. Jim, help me with my math! (Please note that my > 30 gram is less than the recommended 35 gram) > Yoon, The proper amount of Oxalic acid is around 4%, not 30%! Mix 7,5 parts OA (C2H2O2*2H2O) with 100 parts water and 100 parts sugar by weight. http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-0-nf.htm http://www.entom.slu.se/res/bi/proj16b.html -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:16:56 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Sealing concrete floors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Trevor & all > The only hassle with linseed oil, either raw or pale boiled, is that it is a > perfect culture for growing mould in warm climates. You end up with > a black looking colour on what ever surface you put it on. Trevor makes a good point, that I had not considered (I do not know what a 'warm climate' is). I would like to know a little more... I would have expected a high temperature to bake the surface too hard and dry for mould to survive. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 19:16:08 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Sealing concrete floors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Trevor, your floor level cooing strips. Fine for removing the tight >corner problem at floor level - but how is the junction between the >coving and the floor / wall achieved. Do you use a "shower" type mastic (acrylic)? The coving strips can well be sealed with a "shower" type mastic but I would enquire after some food grade type silastics but, on reflection, as the area is not in contact with food (honey) you would probably not need food grade. Not sure if that is what it is called in Canada. It is basically a gap filler that has some elasticity and is waterproof. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:19:49 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim asked in relation to re-invasion problem: > That's an unexpected statement, what did Mr. Martin say? As I have reported, the lecture explained why infested colonies die in winter and stressed that colonies should be treated (if necessary) as soon as the crop is removed (early august here) to ensure the production of healthy bees to overwinter. During questions after the talk, concern was expressed that if beekeepers treated so early, e.g. from the end of the first week of august, then treatment would finish around 21 September for strips and 7 September for thymol. He was asked whether this would leave the colonies open to re-invasion, but dismissed as not being significant. Of course, we were all taught in the early days that re-invasion was a major problem caused mainly by highly infested colonies breaking up and drifting into surrounding colonies. Perhaps now, in most of the UK at least, this is no longer a problem as varroa is fairly well controlled and we do not have many highly infested colonies looking for a more congenial home. I would have little reason to doubt Dr Stephen Martin's work, or maths, as he worked at the National Bee Unit and produced the varroa modelling program and calculator. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 07:32:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions In-Reply-To: <200401030158.i031HQqw012739@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit yoonytoons wrote: > Correction on that 30%: > “The dosage of the oxalic acid in the trickling method had to be reduced > from originally 60g to 35g oxalic acid dihydrate per liter sugar syrup (1 > part sugar + 1 part water), without an appreciable decrease of efficacy. > At the same time, the bee tolerance of the trickling method was > considerably increased.” This is the trickling method. But your first post indicated you are spraying it. So I am confused. In any case, even if the percentages are correct, the amount of Oxalic Acid (OA) is limited to 50 ml max for the hive for trickling and 3-4 ml per side of frames of bees if sprayed (actually atomized spray). 50 ml is not that much. You really have to measure it out to not overdose the colony. For Oxalic Acid, application methods are different, amounts are different, composition of the liquid is different, and the rational for the method of control is different. Add vaporization and you have another different method entirely, also mentioned in your post. One size does not fit all. Too much OA harms bees. Too little results in decreased control. It is easy to understand why strips are/were used for Apistan, Amitraz and Checkmite, especially if you go back into the archives and see the many home made concoctions. Lots of flame wars back then on the pre-moderated BeeL (greedy chemical companies; if five grams works then ten will work twice as good; and it's an ag product since they use it on sheep/cattle/dogs and I can buy it in 55 gal drums so it must be safe). If I am coming through harsh, Yoon, I apologize. That is not the intent. But, as another poster noted, there are beekeepers who might search for and get incorrect info on Oxalic Acid treatments from your first post. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 17:05:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions In-Reply-To: <200401030158.i031HQqw012739@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry, this is a long post. But it is still time to delete it ! > I > meant to say 30 gram > Oxalic per liter (abbreviated in quart in my case) > according to the > following recipe: > http://www.apis.admin.ch/english/Themes/Varroa.htm This incident is interesting since it enlights both the need of an alternative treatment and the vacuum let by official agencies in Noth America. You (and I) are lucky enough that Swiss, German, Danish, Finnish and Swedish (sorry for those I forgot here) made the effort to publish some of their studies in a foreign language otherwise what would have been the recipe ? I had a look at the Arla (PMRA in English) web site. Correct me if I am wrong, but in order to register a "pest control product", one has to fullfill the homologation application and pay afferent fees, according to the Bill C28 (new act on pest control). So what happens when no private corporation is inetrested in such investment beacuse the product is cheap and widely available (namely there is no money to make with it) ? You need a "stakeholders" association, federation, council or board to invest for "the common interest", don't you ? Hypotheses are that this entity is rich enough (or have available money) to fill the application and is enough representative of the "common interest" (namely not controled by a handfull od individuals with different inetrest that the "common interest"). Finally, I want to point out that this structure is not adapted to cases like Ox. Acid approval. Beekeepers are looking for cheap easy to produce "organic" product to control varroas but the approval procedure is based on market forces focusing on high fast return on investments. So we will have the same problem for each cheap easy to produce product emerging in the future. Am I far away afield ? Or are my thoughts somewhat correct ? A "pest control product" is defined by a product, an organism or a substance [...]used as a means for directly or indirectly controlling, destroying, attracting or repelling a pest or for mitigating or preventing its injurious, noxious or troublesome effects; (please see the law for complete definition). You can use it only if it is registered on the official register. Namely, as I understand it, if you use sugar against varroa or vinegar against nosema, you are clearely using a product directly against a pest, so it is a "pest control product", so you are outlaw if it is not registered. Ça va mal à la shop, as they say here. The French AMM process has quite the same drawbacks and same questions are asked to them about the same products. I wonder how those who obtained official approval in their countries get out of this kind of process. Is their approval system different ? But in the same way, Arla-PMRA has an official policy to support "Sustainable Pest control" (http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/pmra-arla/francais/spm/spm-f.html) although I do not see, on their publication, how it is translated in the reality (but this sector is quite unfamiliar to me). I am wondering how this agency will make us life easier for next products that could help beekeepers on the "sustainable pest control" when no private company is interested in investing in the homologation process. With regard to Ox. Acid use, the SBB seems and advantage to me whem using a vaporizer. 1. It makes space under the screen to place the vaporizer. I have plastic frames and I don not want to place the vaporizer to close to the frames. 2. Ox. Acid tends to re-crystallize on the screen, it is better when you can remove the screen (which is my configuration, the screen is stapled on a frame inserted in the bottom board) 3. Under the screen, I have a styrofoam sheet that I can add or remove also, so that I can close or open the space under the screen. Just add a piece of wood under the vaporizer and on the styrofoam. 4. When vaporizing Ox. Acid, if hive is correctly closed for 10 min, you are no in contact with Ox. Acide vapors. You only manipulate crystals for 2 seconds (from the spoon to the vaporizer). With regard to H&S issue for Ox. Acid, someone mentionned, on the Belgian list, a complete article published by a German PhD student in a Swiss beekeeping journal. I still have not read, ich hoffe diese publikation ist nicht auf Deutch, weil mein Deutch sehr schlecht ist. Read me until the end ? congratulations ! Hervé _________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 22:12:46 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hervé asked: 'I wonder how those who obtained official approval in their countries get out of this kind of process. Is their approval system different ?' In the UK companies have to 'jump through hoops' in order to gain approval for 'veterinary medicines' such as Apistan, Bayvarol etc. and this requires a considerable amount of time, effort and money to produce all the required data. So, as Hervé said, it was clear that no private corporation was going to be interested in such investment because the product is cheap and widely available. We wondered if we would ever be able to use these alternative treatments that seemed to be working well, particularly in the Scandinavian countries. Then came the surprise. Our government decided that if these products were not defined as 'veterinary medicines' they would not require approval, so they defined them as 'non-medicinal curative substances'! We were, frankly, amazed - and delighted! Common sense 1 - Red tape 0. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:08:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Varroa treatment concoctions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I have been told..... the EPA has the opinion that beekeepers in general are a bunch of unreliable pesticide applicators because they use homemade remedies, do not bother to remove pesticides and medications as required, and/or they improperly apply legally approved pesticides. >there are people besides beekeepers who read this List! That’s likely to be indeed what EPA, OSHA, USDA are thinking. Trying to hide things, in my opinion, only makes it worse. There are some out there who indeed do just as mentioned above. In the interest of safety it is the lowest common denominator that’s chosen. Some newer hobby beekeepers may get the impression that since trace amounts of a few acids occur naturally in honey they are somehow “safer” to use than something like, say, sulfuric acid. Some pretty nasty stuff is being applied here. I may be wrong on this, but oxalic acid is not an approved pesticide in the U.S. and since it isn’t approved as a pesticide I don’t believe, plain and simple, it’s now legal to use whether the applicator's honey is sold or not. Still we’ve got more than a few untrained people experimenting with things like oxalic acid (and other preparations) here in this country. As a matter of fact, one poster a while back mentioned that it wasn’t legal to use in the U.S. and then went on to write that he used it on his bees. Is that going to help in the approval process? My response pointing out the apparent discrepancy did not make it to the list; the reply, though to be truthful, was worded as a wisecrack. For the record I, too, would like to see oxalic acid approved, but with certified training required of the applicators. Anyway, my original post was aimed at newer beekeepers on the list to point out a good little reference book that touches on the various treatments that are out there. Many on the list have probably seen the publication. Some of these treatments are not legal to use everywhere. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 09:47:51 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Sealing concrete floors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave and all > I would like to know a little more... I would have expected a high > temperature to bake the surface too hard and dry for mould to survive. The linseed oil does not bake on in a warm climate. What is a warm climate? Well here where I am it is currently running around 32 - 36 centigrade with overnight minimums of 18 - 20. In winter, it has been known to get down to minus 8 but usually around 1 - 7 but during the day it will most likely reach 18 - 20. As our humidities can be quite high, it is an ideal condition for moulds to grow. It is also a good climate for decay fungus. Boxes not treated with copper naphthenate will start to decay (rot) within 2 years. Back to the linseed oil. Our climatic conditions allow these moulds to grow and linseed oil is a good medium. Older type house that used to have the weather boards (outside cladding) treated with a mixture of linseed oil and a dye would all turn out black, after several years, despite the colour dye that was put in. If you do not have the conditions to encourage moulds to grow then you will not see it. In the same way that if your conditions don't encourage decay fungus, then decay will not be a problem in your boxes. We have these sort of areas in Australia but it is mainly because they have very low humidities with high temperatures or alternatively low temperatures with medium humidity. Hence no problems. Decay fungus needs an equilibrium moisture content (EMC) of around 22% before it can start to act on wood. Hope this helps. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 18:23:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain What happens when all subscribers are set to NOMAIL? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 19:15:43 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Comments: To: James Kilty In-Reply-To: James Kilty said: > I think we are using the word re-invasion here in two ways. I > understand it to mean a new invasion (large numbers) from > other colonies, once you have reduced numbers by treatment > (hence the "re" "and invasion"), either from robbing or > absconding/breakup of overloaded colonies. Yes, I meant all of it - drifting, robbing, and such. I am not sure if the USA study had any colonies that "absconded". Did the one you mentioned? I know for sure that robbing is considered a valid vector for the spread of mites back to the robbing colony. > This often happens in autumn, hence the idea of re-invasion and > well defined by Peter as such. Drifting will tend to equalise mites > between colonies in an apiary. Agreed. Wyatt will publish his results when he is darned good and ready, and I should not speculate about what remains, as yet, unpublished. I am commenting only on what was presented at various meetings, and what has been said to me directly by the researcher. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 23:03:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: BEE-L Digests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Due to an administrative snafu, subscribers who had modified their subscriptions to receive BEE-L in DIGEST format will be receiving individual posts until they again set BEE-L to arrive in digest format. If you want to receive BEE-L in DIGEST format, send email to: LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU with a single line in the body of the mail that reads: SET BEE-L DIGEST Apologies to those who were inconvenienced. Sincerely, Aaron Morris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 00:01:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <09c601c3d17f$87fcf6a0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <09c601c3d17f$87fcf6a0$7604c518@gollum>, James Fischer writes >A long-term (and still ongoing) study on a reasonably large number of >hives at several apiaries by Dr. Wyatt Mangum of Virginia, USA was >said by Wyatt last summer to show that reinvasion (or "inter-colony >drift", if you will) IS the apparent primary means for spreading varroa >between hives. I think we are using the word re-invasion here in two ways. I understand it to mean a new invasion (large numbers) from other colonies, once you have reduced numbers by treatment (hence the "re" "and invasion"), either from robbing or absconding/breakup of overloaded colonies. This often happens in autumn, hence the idea of re-invasion and well defined by Peter as such. Drifting will tend to equalise mites between colonies in an apiary. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:22:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L DIGESTS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The administrative snafu affecting those who receive BEE-L in DIGEST format was a figment of my imagination. There is no need to modify subscriptions to receive BEE-L in DIGEST format if you have already done so. Again, apologies for those who have been inconvenienced. Sincerely, Aaron Morris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:49:45 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Sealing concrete floors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Trevor & all > If you do not have the conditions to encourage moulds to grow then you will > not see it. I have never noticed it myself, but I should add that much of the linseed oil that I used to apply to hive boxes was diluted to a variable extent with solvents that had been used in washing out spray guns (from another part of the factory). The solvent allowed faster, (and I think deeper) penetration, but then evaporated... So the surface was never wet for very long. I have no experiance of 'deliberately' sealing concrete, but I spilt a gallon of linseed on a concrete floor once and it seemed to amalgamate with the concrete and make it harder. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:30:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: How many hives should there be in a yard? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We were going south from Bryson City, NC. Close to a rest area at Andrew, NC. I think we were on highway 19 or at least we had been a little before then. I saw about 40 hives in 1 yard. Maybe they were only there for the winter, but I was only curious at seeing so many in 1 yard. Does anyone know about these? Maybe there are a lot of Sourwood trees nearby. Thanks, Lionel North Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:00:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This may be of interest to the Canadian beekeepers on the list, and many US beekeepers, too: -- Dear Beekeeper Oxalic acid has recently been registered in Europe for the treatment of varroa mites. Small scale trials in Canada show that it is a useful tool in an Integrated Pest Management program. There are a number of good reasons for registering oxalic acid in Canada: 1. oxalic acid is showing great promise in field trials in Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick. 2. oxalic acid is not a synthetic chemical and will not accumulate in the food chain 3. establishing an official procedure and an MRL for oxalic acid reduces the risk of residues that might result from incorrect dosage or timing. 4. oxalic acid has been registered in Europe and the data package is available to our industry for registration in Canada - for a fee. 5. The PMRA would accept the European data in addition to Canadian trials. 6. CHC is a not for profit corporation and if we are the registrant in this process, the PMRA has informed us that we may apply for a reduction in the registration fees. This would be a saving to our industry as there would be no fees charged back to the beekeepers or suppliers. Since oxalic acid is readily available there is no economic reason for a drug company to pursue the registration of oxalic acid. The CHC would like to facilitate the registration of oxalic acid but we need your help to accomplish this task. The estimated cost of the project is $30,000 including fees for the data package, PMRA registration fees, preparation time, consulting fees and travel to pre-submission meeting. The estimated saving to beekeepers in pesticide reduction is $4 per hive per year. We are requesting a donation of $0.20 per hive (eg. $100 for 500 hives) from all beekeepers. The CHC will approach corporate sponsors who are willing to partially support the registration process but we believe that the majority of the funds should be from those who benefit most- the beekeepers of Canada. In order to start the application process as soon as possible we need your contribution by January 31st. The CHC receipt issued for contributions received can be used as an eligible business expense. Please make the cheque payable to the CHC and indicate in your letter that it is for the oxalic acid registration project. The oxalic registration fund will be kept separate from other monies and all payments in and out of the fund will be carefully accounted. Thank you for your support. Heather Clay Canadian Honey Council Suite 236, 234-5149 Country Hills Blvd NW Calgary AB T3A 5K8 ph. 403-208-7141 fax 403-547-4317 www.honeycouncil.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:46:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: weather We here in Manitoba, Canada are sitting right in a middle of a cold snap. Last night was the coldest yet at -34degreesC with windchills of -45degreesC. Had a heavey snow fall at christmas and all the hives are nicely covered. And to think, I was cursing at those hot 30degree days in August, Cant wait for spring. Glad I have my hives heavey... Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:10:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: The Effort to Obtain Oxalic Approval in North America Allen, Thank you for bringing to light the full details of the CHC's position of sponsorship and intent to see the registration of Oxalic Acid in Canada hopefully come to fruition in a manner such as written by Ms. Clay of the CHC. The CHC is wise to take this position, I certainly hope that Mr. Gene Brandi, Chairman of the National Honey Board here in the USA will take a similar position. The following short quotation of Ms. Clay's mailing rings true for the US as well: "Since oxalic acid is readily available there is no economic reason for a drug company to pursue the registration of oxalic acid. The CHC would like to facilitate the registration of oxalic acid but we need your help to accomplish this task." Perhaps this could be the start of something really great, Beekeepers and Honey Board both supporting each other in a project that has never be done before: Pesticide Registration! Field studies, "labeling", a Material Safety Data Sheets, and other matters need to be resolved before oxalic acid could ever be approved in the US by the EPA. IF the NHB could take the responsibility to task would it be a great political plus! I expect that there are enough resources within the ranks of Beekeepers of America, to volunteer their expertise of their individual avocations as well as their hives in order to facilitate any need that may arise in order that costs could be kept to a minimum. Regards and Best Wishes to All Canadians Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:47:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeanne Price Subject: Re: Dead Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed " Or could there be another problem?... >Or should >I clean it all out and let them start with new foundation? > What part of Western NC are you located? There are several wonderful bee clubs in the area and some master beekeepers who would give you advice. Jeanne Price Forest City, NC _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 21:06:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: SO (sucrose octanoate) & OA (oxilic acid) MIXUP? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoon mentioned using OA in treating his bees this fall. Allen then rebuts but with reference to SO. Are we talking the same chemicals here? I can understand Allen's rebuttal if Yoon was using sucrose octanoate, but my reading was that he was using oxilic acid. Are we all on the same page? Have I missed something here? Mike Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery, Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:54:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: hives in a yard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lionel said "I saw about 40 hives in 1 yard. Maybe they were only there for the winter, but I was only curious at seeing so many in 1 yard. " You may have seen a wintering yard. I know of migratory beekeepers in that area that keep around 100 hives in a yard! Understand, they are not there to gain weight on a flow as much as they are to safely over-winter and be fed, medicated (yech), and split before moving north. Having 100 in a yard makes it a lot easier for a beekeeper to tend them, and it is claimed it does no harm to the bees. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:35:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: hives in a yard In-Reply-To: <000c01c3d465$0beddff0$fde9d518@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-64406004; boundary="=======67205492=======" --=======67205492======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-64406004; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >Lionel said "I saw about >40 hives in 1 yard. Maybe they were only there for the winter, but I was >only curious at seeing so many in 1 yard. " I have had yards of 40 colonies, and in a good location, all will make a nice crop. Mike --=======67205492======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-64406004 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 12/26/2003 --=======67205492=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:58:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Wholesale honey prices online Greetings Does anyone know of a website that posts world market honey prices on a regular basis? Thanks pb :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:24:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honey Import Information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I always thought the 'bible' was the USDA information our of Yakima, WA. See http://www.nhb.org/domestic/index.html#Import. The USDA data referenced in on the left side of the page, about halfway down. However, I note that the NHB has a great deal of information in addition to this. Don't know how good it is, but I guess it is as good as it gets. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:38:06 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <0edd01c3d321$0eee0fd0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <0edd01c3d321$0eee0fd0$7604c518@gollum>, James Fischer writes >Yes, I meant all of it - drifting To me, drifting is precise - from one hive to another, almost entirely in one apiary as bees confuse their hives. I don't know what you'd call bees choosing a hive because of weather. >, robbing, and such. I am not >sure if the USA study had any colonies that "absconded". >Did the one you mentioned? By absconding, I meant when colonies break up as they lose cohesion. I was commenting only on there being no contradiction between the original message and your reply - it was a semantic problem. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:58:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: How many hives should there be in a yard? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are a migratory beekeeper chasing big crops as many as you can. However for the majority of hobby beekeepers there are drawbacks to keeping more than a few colonies on one site as there will be limited year round forage and at times where there is insufficient forage available to occupy fully all the available foragers trouble will ensue within the hive. Read the works of Dr Leslie Bailey who has lectured on 'beekeeping by numbers' for the scientific explanation. It is probably in the Archives. However from the practical point of view I think the answer is 'several'. You can often sort out a problem in one hive by taking something from another close by. It isn't worth visiting an apiary just for a five minute job: you may as well do several while you are there. However, beekeeper's back and boredom may occur if you have too many to work without a break. So keep some where the local people will pay more for their local honey. Keep others where there is a great view. More where there is a shady dell where you can chill out with your bees. More where a friend will provide coffee and cake. More where you are teaching somebody else the craft and you are sharing with them. There's more to hobby beekeeping than stacking boxes and filling jars. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:17:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: How many hives should there be in a yard? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In West Virginia I have found no more than 12 hive per yard and yards no closer than 4 - 5 miles as the bee flies. Russ Dean :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:07:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: How many hives should there be in a yard? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In central Alberta our main honey flow comes from Canola. I have one yard with 60 hives which in the past two years has averaged 240 lbs per hive. ( they are divided into two groups of 30 separated by a small pond surrounded by bushes) There are usually a couple of square miles of Canola within their foraging area, which translates into half a billion plants. This gives about 150 plants per bee, each plant having several flowers. I imagine more hives could be put there without affecting production much. They seem to behave well, and build up in the spring without trouble on the local willows and dandelions. I do feed about a gallon of sugar syrup in the spring and another two gallons in the fall. Best regards Donald Aitken --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.558 / Virus Database: 350 - Release Date: 02/01/2004 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:59:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bernard SAUBOT Subject: G.M. bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello from southern France, I am working for a company which is involved in both beekeeping -5000 = hives-, and honey packing -10000 tons per year-, and I am in charge of = the hives . One of our main european customer wants to be 100% sure that the honey = we buy for them in Argentina is NOT coming from G.M. bees . I am very much surprised, as I didn't know that such bees were even = existing and producing honey in south America . Is anyone in the list able to give me any information about this problem = ? Many thanks Bernard Saubot :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:00:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: How many hives should there be in a yard? In-Reply-To: <1e8.16a9acef.2d2cb83c@wmconnect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-E617785; boundary="=======29C916FF=======" --=======29C916FF======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-E617785; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In West Virginia I have found no more than 12 hive per yard and yards no >closer than 4 - 5 miles as the bee flies. >Russ Dean I would consider this to be a poor area for beekeeping, or you are wasting the resources available. How much surplus would the best colonies produce in your area? Mike --=======29C916FF======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-E617785 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 12/26/2003 --=======29C916FF=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 08:59:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: G.M. bees To my knowledge there is presently NO genetically modified honey bees out. A few labs have attempted to get the technology working (there are about 3-4 plublications now), but it is no way near the stage that any GM bees are surviving, even in the lab. herhaps your clients are referring to honey from GM crops, which is a totally different story. Zachary Huang http://cyberbee.msu.edu off to Texas, nice escape from the weather here! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:57:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: How many hives should there be in a yard? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Really in West Virginia I have found lots of SURPLUS honey and just need more surplus time to work my hives. Russ Dean :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:59:22 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: "Alaska Beekeepers & Honey Bee Breeders Guild" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi All, I Have Started A new Yahoo Group for the organizing of "Alaska Beekeepers & Honey Bee Breeders Guild". If you wish to be involved in this new Guild of beekeepers and help in it's formation please feel free to help. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/abahbb/ Here is the groups draft discription and mission. ------------------------------------------------ For discussions and exchange of information related to Alaska Beekeepers & Honey Bee Breeders Guild. Some of the goals of the Guild but not all are; 1. insure the survivability of honey bees in Alaska. 2. To have a group committed to the advanced phases of beekeeping, such as over-wintering, queen-rearing, hive management, increasing apiary stock, bee health and pest control, including creating a research apiaries owned by the Guild. 3. By participating in #2, to create Alaskan bee stock, to support the community of beekeepers in this state. 4. To be stewards to those beekeepers interested in year round management of hives. 5. To learn from each other and advance our communal knowledge of healthy beekeeping tactics. 6. Share resources that provide a means of breeding bees if needed by members. 7. Develop ways and means of increasing stock in our short season. 8. Teach Alaska beekeepers and potential beekeepers how to be stewards of honeybees. 9. To create and maintain a Web Site for sharing our knowledge and skills with others. 10. Fellowship with fellow beekeepers. This is a Guild of Beekeepers standing together for the health, welfare, and survivability of Honey bees that we love and admire. To join this group send an email to the List Owner giving your name and location, and explaining your experience with honey bees and/or desire to be a steward of honey bees in Alaska or any place and presenting the email address you wish to be signed up with. Our membership is not restricted to only Alaskans but to anyone with common desires and Goals. As of January of 2004 this is a new Guild and we are at present forming a formal organization and planning our first meeting and forming affiliate groups in Alaska or in other areas outside our state. In the Future we will form a Guild complete with meetings, dues, news letter by mail and/or on-line, and officers. All who share our commitments are welcome to join and be involved no matter how many hives you keep. . .. c(((([ Keith Malone Chugiak, Alaska USA http://www.cer.org/ Caucasian Bee Keeper alaskabeekeeper@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:55:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gilles and Lee-Ann Organization: Turtle River Apiaries Subject: Re: G.M. bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > One of our main european customer wants to be 100% sure that the honey we buy for them in Argentina is NOT coming from G.M. bees . > > >From Manitoba, > > I would be very surprised if this actually is the case. Your customer is likely referring to genetically modified plants and would like to purchase only > honey from non-genetically engineered crops. Europe has been very fussy with regards to G.M. foods. I believe this position is one of protectionism > rather than the perceived health threats of consuming such foods. If you examine Europes agricultural practices, you will discover that farmers > incorporate many times more synthetic fetilizers and chemicals than is commonly used in North America. I can drink and do enjoy excellent tap water from > my well, there is no need to buy bottled water here. Gilles :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:25:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Wholesale honey prices online The US national honey report is good for US but has little in the way of international prices. Still looking for world prices. http://www.ams.usda.gov/fv/mncs/fvmonthly.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:43:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: World Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Still looking for world prices." I misunderstood what was being sought. I know of no one source for prices in different countries. However, a few years ago I was involved in a discussion where it was reported that there is a cartel (which are legal in most countries) that reported such prices among themselves. Members were the major honey importers in each country (other than those in America, as it would be illegal for them to be a member). See if you can find the email for a large queen producer and honey producer in Argentina. Martin Baumstein...or something like that. He used to be a member of this list, but he has not posted in at least 2-3 years. He may be willing to help you. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:03:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brent Farler Subject: Re: stinky goldenrod honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I did a little searching in the archives and found a suggestion to put = >the jars of solid honey in the dishwasher and run it to liquefy it = >again. I extracted about a pail of excess fall wildflower honey from the fall flow and had the same problem. Not sure what to do with it I left it on a warmer at around 95 degrees for 2 - 3 weeks. When I checked it again it there was still some odor but the taste was very nice with the bitter aftertaste gone. This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:46:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Kesler Subject: Nosema or Acarapsis infections? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anybody have bees known (or suspected) of being parasitized by Nosema or Acarapsis? I need parasitized bees for teaching purposes, and will gladly pay all costs for your time and getting them to me. =20 Thank you in advance for considering this request. =20 David Kesler =20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D David H. Kesler, Ph.D. Biology Department Rhodes College 2000 N. Parkway Memphis, TN 38112 901-843-3557 e-mail: kesler@rhodes.edu web site: http://www.rhodes.edu/biology/kesler calendar: http://calendar.yahoo.com/lampsilis1 =20 "Nobody makes a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little." Edmund Burke =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:41:47 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: World Honey Prices Lloyd said: > I know of no one source for prices in different countries. However, a few > years ago I was involved in a discussion where it was reported that there is > a cartel (which are legal in most countries) that reported such prices among > themselves. Members were the major honey importers in each country (other > than those in America, as it would be illegal for them to be a member). While an actual "cartel" would run afoul of US anti-trust laws, I think we can all assume without fear of error that the people who buy honey from beekeepers have at least a "grapevine" where they share information on who had to pay what for what, where. Beekeepers don't share sales prices among themselves, so buyers have a serious negotiating advantage, and paranoia among beekeepers means that many of them get less than they could for their honey. Would anyone be interested in reporting sales prices, quantities, and such on an anonymous basis? Some months ago we built a prototype web-based price tracking database with the intent of attaching it to the "Bee Culture" web site, but the project stalled due to concerns that the "user interface" was too complicated. As it is, it may well be too complicated, as it tries to track every possible combination of grade, floral source, package type/size, and so on. Some of the rare combinations might be eliminated, or some of the categories might be combined to make the "reporting" screen look less like the cockpit of a 767. A group of people willing to try using the facility and provide feedback would be a big help, if there is any interest in knowing the "best prices" obtained at both wholesale and retail in various areas. I had not planned to track prices beyond the borders of the USA, but databases were made to be modified, so this would be a minor tweak. Tell me what you think. One of the primary components of a "perfect market" would be that buyers and sellers know about other sales. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:51:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: kirk jones Subject: Re: hives in a yard In-Reply-To: <200401070501.i074LwsS020744@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I know it may sound crazy, but when we split in Florida to singles, we keep about a thousand in a yard. It's just convenience. They all seem to build up pretty nice and I notice no difference with only 150 to a yard. When we run for honey we usually only run 32 to 40 up north in Michigan. When I first heard of people doing this, I thought they were crazy. The area with the big yards hardly had any citrus to build on. I think the oaks helped alot. They yield some nectar in the south, so they tell me. Oaks never yield up north. This year I moved to the panhandle of Florida and will try for the ti ti and gallberry. They say it's just huge for buildup. Kirk Jones ===== Kirk Jones www.benzieplayboyz.com www.sleepingbearfarms.com greetings from Northern Michigan! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:03:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: How many hives should there be in a yard? In-Reply-To: <1d1.17450f47.2d2cb3cb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: CSlade777@AOL.COM > If you are a migratory beekeeper chasing big crops as many as you can. I'm not sure what you mean here, Chris? If you are trying to make a living, it would not make much (economical) sense to run 30 miles (probably paying a helper) to work 10 hives? Most commercial beekeepers in good honey areas (commercial guys tend to gravitate toward good honey producing areas, unless they do pollination or have some other specialty; they get sorted out by poverty otherwise...) run around 40 - 80 hives per yard. During a good flow, I've seen areas that could have 200 hives and still have a lot of nectar going to waste within a half mile. But when there's not a flow, the bees tend to get robby and you have all kinds of problems. So the commercial guys try to come to a good compromise, based on experience of the area. Too small, and your work is inefficient; too large, and the bees get robby and feisty. I always liked to stay on the low side of that, usually around 36-40 in my yards, but that was a personal preference more due to sore backs than anything else. I never had any lifts or Bobcats.... Another factor was that 40 single story hives made a good load for my trailer. Dave SC, USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::