From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:45:57 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE7F48FE1 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDJp012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:17 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0402C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 203906 Lines: 4519 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:46:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim said; so I think I got in at the right time. You did! The bloom is late this year! Tim asks: To those with experience, at the rate of 1 hive per acre with an average of 6-8 frames of bees per hive will I have to put supers on if I keep them up there for 5-6 weeks? Give the bees room in the brood nest but DO NOT put any honey supers on as Almond honey tastes terrible! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 23:09:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California In-Reply-To: <200402150001.i1ENfrOX012769@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: Tim Vaughan > The guy he > contracted out to called two days ago and said his bees were dead, We are hearing a lot of this in the last couple weeks. and I > am so close that I was able to move up 20 hives yesterday and today. The > pollenator varieties are just reaching full bloom, but the main crop is > just starting to swell, so I think I got in at the right time. You are providing the pollinators. The trees that provide pollen are the pollenizers. Pollinator is the agent that carries the pollen. Pollenizer is the plant that produces the pollen. Don't confuse the pimp with the john. It's pretty important in your new line of work. Dave in SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:20:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California In-Reply-To: <200402150001.i1ENfrOX012769@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > To those with experience, at the rate of 1 hive per acre with an average > of 6-8 frames of bees per hive will I have to put supers on if I keep them > up there for 5-6 weeks? The hives get sun first thing and nobody sprays > around there as far as I know. > To those with experience, at the rate of 1 hive per acre with an average > of 6-8 frames of bees per hive will I have to put supers on if I keep them > up there for 5-6 weeks? > No need for a super during almond bloom.The bees will use whatever they gather to brood up.It is more typical to use 1 and a half to 2 hives per acre of 8 frames average.With that many hives in an area,plus the often poor weather at this time of year,many of us will put a gallon of feed on at the start of bloom.Almond honey is horrible(bitter)any way so you dont want it mixing with whatever comes next.If the weather is good during bloom the hives will need swarm control or splitting right after bloom. I just got back from shuffling bees around the Sacramento Valley.Thursday morning there was frost on the truck.Yesterday it started to rain so a lot of hives were being moved down I-5 during the day.I hit a blizzard at the 3000 foot level driving home last night.Typical Northern California weather.I didnt see anything in bloom at the far northern end of the valley but it should come on quick now.(running around 10 days late because of the cold Jan./early Feb. ---Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:49:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Re: Ptelea trifolata MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very common around here. But flowers are inconspicuous, and I cannot comment on their attractiveness except that I doubt the plants are dense enough to make a difference. See http://www.esb.utexas.edu/mbierner/bio406d/images/pics/rut/ptelea_trifoliata.htm Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:04:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California Thanks to Bob and Mike. I put the hives several feet apart, so I can make side by side splits if it's needed towards the end of the bloom. The farmer is a friend of Adrian Wenner, and they did some trials with Blue Orchard bees on the same land last year. The owner's got some out this year too, and so far I didn't see any sign of them, although he told me he's seen a few males flying around. It will be interesting to observe how the two kinds of bees do. It's close enough that I can go up every week to check things out. Regards and thanks Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:59:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: where is spring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello beekeeps, Every year I can almost gauge when spring will arrive here by the way you all talk about the early bloom. How is the weather down in tenn, arkansas, mississippi. preacher :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:12:28 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Cell size and Cell pitch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alan & all > Internal cell size can't easily be determined from cell pitch due to > variations in wall thickness (with age?) I have done a good deal of rather fiddly measurements myself, and have found wall thickness extremely difficult to measure with good repeatability. One of the problems is whereabouts in the cell length that you take the measurement, because the cell rims cause a sort of bottle necking that is much deeper than most imagine. There is a drawing taken from a 'plaster of paris' plug on a piece of Chris Slade's comb... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/chriscomb.html This comb had not been bred in for many cycles and shows bottle neck shape for aboout 15% of cell depth. The older the comb gets the more enhanced this bottle neck gets and the depth to which extra wall thickening occurs increases, so you have to remove this to get a 'true reading'. Some really old cells do not exhibit this long thick neck and I reckon this to be due to the cells being torn down and re-built. > (I had been told that wall thicknesses were less than 0.1mm (0.004").(my > meathod of measuring wall was to close the calipers gently until it > gripped the wall) I think that your calipers are gripping the thicker portions only, and that if you remove a little more of the rim you will find the figures drop to around 0.1mm (0.004"). I have found that the cell wall thickness at a position about 50% of cell depth, hardly ever changes. I believe this is because the cocoon may be more easily removed from the cell wall at this point, but I have no suggestions as to why this would be the case. It is good to see that someone else, will take the time and trouble to do this sort of tedious work :-) Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:13:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: 2 queens in a hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aaron said: >> First queen not up to par so the bees raise a second? Would they = both be not up to par?<< Exactly Aaron, this is what happens with coumaphos. I have seen two = laying queens and queens cells (sealed and unsealed) in hives that have = been treated with coumaphos. It is all to do with Intercaste Syndrome which is caused by chemicals = such as coumaphos. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:40:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: fall re-queening with cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith asked a lot of questions concerning fall requeening with cells. I suggest that Keith and others contact direct the person who has developed this technique. Dave Miksa, a VERY respected queen breeder and producer in Florida. 352-429-3447. Email miksahf@aol.com. I will provide what I recall from the presentation he gave to the Empire State Beekeepers in November, 2003: 1. They sell well over 100,000 queen cells a year, so are very experienced at what works and what does not. 2. The entire operation is run only by family...with everyone involved from spouses to children to (?) grandchildren. 3. Cells are shipped next day UPS timed to emerge 2 days from shipping. Nevertheless, each cell has a protector in case a queen emerges early or the shipment is delayed. (Queens in cells are very subject to damage up until 3 days before emerging. From that date, the cells and queens can be handled and even inversed with little or no damage.) 4. Cells are packed in a type of foam, which also provides some level of insulation. At a small additional charge, a thermostat-controlled heat device can be added, but he sounded as if that was not really necessary. I have not tried this myself, as I didn't know anyone was doing it until I heard his presentation. If I can get a small quantity (perhaps 25) I will try it this coming August. My main concerns are: 1. Whether the local drone population is sufficient in numbers and with viable sperm. 2. Whether the stock has sufficient Carniolan attributes for this cold northern area. A number of Dave's principal customers are commercial beekeepers who need large numbers of bees in early spring for pollination. They tend to overwinter in the south, do pollination on the way north, and try to produce heavy honey crops before going south to re-start the cycle. The ability to overwinter with small amounts of brood and using small amounts of feed is not of prime importance to those overwintering in the south. I recall he said he keeps his line with something like 30% Carniolan. Like Keith, I would be interested in hearing from any who have purchased cells from Dave. Lacking that, I strongly suggest calling or sending email. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:21:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Moderator Subject: Re: RH and desicated bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message was originally submitted by jjbmail@SELWAY.UMT.EDU to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU and was edited by a moderator to remove excess quotes, sigs and tag lines. --- In very dry conditions, especially in the late winter/early spring, as you describe, or in indoor flight arenas, we see some problems with bees maintaining brood. Much of the European literature on flight chambers suggests that difficulties in keeping bee colonies strong and viable for long periods while confined indoors may be due to extremes of humidity, with overly dry conditions just as bad as overly wet. Jerry >So, what are the typical problems for bees being held in low R.H. >conditions over extended periods or during in winter housing? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:58:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California In-Reply-To: <200402151504.i1FEs1ND028226@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The farmer is a friend of Adrian Wenner, and they did some trials with > Blue Orchard bees on the same land last year.> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: There are many types of native solitary bees and bumblebees here in the wild mountains.Some show up right before fruit bloom as they seem to be on the same cycle as the fruit trees. But I cant recall ever seeing anything but honeybees on the almond bloom.I put this down to the widespread spraying that goes on.While these bees will fly at lower temps than honeybees ,I cant help but wonder if they could be raised in any quantity to be a significant pollinator of almonds.Tim,let us know if you see a lot of orchard bee activity while you are checking your hives.(I really enjoy walking through an almond orchard in full bloom on a warm day listening to the roar of the bees,at least until a fungicide spray rig shows up) ----Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:03:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cell size and Cell pitch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An easy way to measure cell internal sizes is to fill them with Plaster of Paris. Dave Cushman measured some of mine and the figures and diagrams are on his web site. Chris > : > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:33:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: RH and desicated bees In-Reply-To: <008301c3f3e0$009e3ce0$52b85ad1@notebook> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Jerry for the mail. So, when atmospheric RH falls to levels of 40% in a in wintering house - is spreading 20+ litres of water on to the floor to get it back up to 50% a good idea? That gets the RH in the air external to the brood boxes in the range of 50% and therefore presumably allows the bees to regulate brooding conditions and reliquidifacation of crystalised honey as required in late winter/ early spring. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:15:03 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kevin Gibbs Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > pollinator of almonds.Tim,let us know if you see a lot of orchard bee > activity while you are checking your hives.(I really enjoy walking > through an almond orchard in full bloom on a warm day listening to the > roar of the bees,at least until a fungicide spray rig shows up) > ----Mike Hi Mike and all What's the deal with these fungicides? The manufactures don't give any label warnings for bee kill but they sure blow a few over. I'm talking about Antracol and also Manzate with one grower mixed with Bond Extra as the sticker (surfactant). I got the grower to not apply the sticker but he still got a good kill spraying in the daytime. He agreed to not spray after that. I warned another grower of these problems so he sprayed Antracol at 4 am to get it dried by the time bees flew but when I were there at 2 pm the bees were dropping out of the sky dead and dying in front of the hive. He agreed not to spray any more. Another grower sprayed Antracol in the evenings after bee flying times and I never saw any bee kill but the hives did no good. Why no warnings on the label? Is it up to me to sort these fungicide manufacturers out? The growers had no warning of the damage they were inflicting and if I hadn't stopped them they would have put their own crops in even more risk. (If anyone has any suspicions about wether any particular chemical is killing bees just put some in a cage in the growers spray path and give them a dose at the application rate being used). Kevin Gibbs New Zealand :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:36:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Drutchas Subject: multiple queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If we are getting an increase in two and three queen colonies one would = have to wonder if it is the comuphos. Didn't the same thing happen to = the fire ants when they first started trying to poison them? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:18:18 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: multiple queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone that doesn't believe that coumaphos causes Intermediate Caste = Syndrome only has to treat his hives with the chemical and then try to = raise queens in the hive. It's a repeatable experiment and there is no = doubt about the cause. Even amounts of less than 100ppm can cause it. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:34:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Browder Subject: Goble style inner covers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" What are Goble style inner covers? How, when, and why are they used? Who sells them? I"m a new beekeeper trying to improve my techniques. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:15:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andrew Browder asks: "What are Goble style inner covers? How, when, and why are they used? Who sells them?" Goble inner covers are used as any other inner cover; moreover, it also allows upper ventilation to the outside and ingress/egress for the bees depending upon the position (forward or back) of its telescoping or migratory top. Brushy Mountain Bee Farm sells the 10 Frame Goble Inner Cover (Cat #671) and (8 Frame Inner Cover (Cat #254IC). The following link will take you to their website: http://www.beeequipment.com where you can query “Goble” and a drawing of the inner cover and other information will result. Regards, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC (Authorized Dealer for Brushy Mountain Bee Farm) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:07:27 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Goble style inner covers have an upper entrance hole cut in the front edge of the cover. I would never own a colony without an upper entrance because it guarantees ventilation. I know that Brushy Mountain Bee Farm in North Carolina makes and sells very good quality Goble covers. George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:31:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California In-Reply-To: <001f01c3f443$746aac40$66c8adcb@h41lz416s> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The manufactures don't give any > label > warnings for bee kill but they sure blow a few over. Hi Kevin, I dont know which fungicides are being used in the almonds here.I have seen some dead bees in front of the hives,but so far havent seen any substantial bee kills.Captan is probably the worst from what I hear,but may be banned.The problem here is that several types of fungus can do severe damage to the almond bloom,and in a wet Feb(like this one may be)the growers feel they have to spray during every break in the weather.Its a trade off .The trees arent going to have much bee activity right after spraying,and I think the growers know it.Anyone pollinating almonds should be aware that some bees will be killed by fungicides ,and decide if they can tolerate the loss. ---Mike(watching the rain pour down and the creeks rising) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:11:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: 2 queens in a hive Roger White said: "I have seen two laying queens and queens cells (sealed and unsealed) in hives that have been treated with coumaphos. It is all to do with Intercaste Syndrome which is caused by chemicals such as coumaphos." Roger, A search of the BEE-L Archives failed to come up with any additional posts with "Intercaste Syndrome" as the quoted phrase. I frankly am not up to date on this although I am aware of increased mortality and infertility of queens and drones raised in an environment affected by "normal" applications of various FDA (USA) approved pesticides. Could you and others possibly expand on this hypothesis? Thanks, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:34:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California In-Reply-To: <001f01c3f443$746aac40$66c8adcb@h41lz416s> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Heres some info about what the growers are up against. http://www.bluediamond.com/growers/techniques/pest_management/bloom.cfm No mention of bees in any of this. ----Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 17:45:39 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The manufactures don't give any > label > warnings for bee kill but they sure blow a few over. Are you sure it is the fungicide that is killing the bees? There is a published paper from New Zealand that shows that wetting agents will kill bees. So if they are putting wetting agent in the fungicide that could be the problem. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:24:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Seiler Apiaries Subject: intercaste syndrome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck Norton Said: A search of the BEE-L Archives failed to come up with any additional = posts with "Intercaste Syndrome" as the quoted phrase. I frankly am not up to date on this although I am aware of increased mortality and infertility = of queens and drones raised in an environment affected by "normal" applications of various FDA (USA) approved pesticides. Could you and others possibly expand on this hypothesis? I have not heard of the term "intercaste syndrome" apllied to bees = either. Google turned up nothing relating to bees, only ants, where the = term may have originated. However, in very recent times researchers like = Jeff Pettis and Marla Spivak have worked with these "approved" toxins = and shown that at even very low levels, queen rearing, and development = of surviving queens, is heavily impaired. It stands to reason then, that = pheromones that are normally given of by a queen may also be lacking due = to poorly developed glands and/or receptors. One could see that in such = an event, two queens in a hive are a strong possibility. I recently = listened to Dr. Pettis on one of these experiments, and he commented = that even with residues from 1/4 of a strip of coumaphos in the hive, = queen rearing proved to be extremely difficult. Something to consider, = when we typically dose the hive with two of these strips. On a brighter note, (and I do not know how much this topic has been = discussed as I'm fairly new to the forum), our local university (WSU) = has worked on the development and approval of sucrose octanoate, a = non-toxic food grade sugar ester that is sprayed onto the bees weekly = for three weeks (Dadant markets it as "Sucrocide"). It works by = essentially dessicating the mites and clogging up their breathing = apparatus. The bees merely lick themselves clean. While this method of = mite control is too labor intensive for a commercial bee yard, it may be = all right for a queen rearing operation, and eliminate the need for = coumaphos or fluvalinate. Frank Seiler Seiler Apiaries :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:47:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers Comments: To: GImasterBK@AOL.COM George Imirie wrote: "I would never own a colony without an upper entrance because it guarantees ventilation. I know that Brushy Mountain Bee Farm in North Carolina makes and sells very good quality Goble covers." IMO George is being modest as he did not mention a very simple inexpensive device that gives ventilation as well as a way for bees to enter and exit their hive, the Imirie Shim. When talking about upper ventilation the Imirie Shim can be used above a standard inner cover (not a solid innercover). Of course, a small twig about 1/8 to 5/16 inches in diameter is free if available and will provide ventilation; a larger gap may induce robbing due to the increased area that requires defense of the colony. That is precisely why either a Goble Inner Cover or a standard inner cover with an Imirie Shim above works better if both ventilation and upper ingress and egress is desired. Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:45:26 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Intermediate Caste Syndrome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The paper on the above subject was written by myself and my erstwhile = colleague D. Micheletto and was published in The Beekeepers Quarterly - = November2001- this was later confirmed by work done by Marla Spivak. = Check this file. http://www.beedata.com/beebiz/files99/beebiz13-april2002.pdf I proposed the name for this condition and did not adopt it from any = work done on ants. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:30:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Shipping queen cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following is a note from a NYS commercial beekeeper. Last year he purchased cells from Miksa (in Florida) to make summer splits. He prefers to not directly post to Bee-L, but gave me permission to quote him. Reference is made to bees returning to NYS from blueberry pollination in Maine. Normally that would be about June 15. Fredonia is in the Western part of NYS, in prime goldenrod territory. "I got 800 cells from Miksa a couple weeks after my bees returned from Maine, 400 on two consecutive Fridays. The splits were ready when the cells arrived. The cells are addressed to my local UPS and I picked them up first thing in the morning. There were no problems with shipping. There were plenty of bees to keep the cells warm so I did not bother to put them in my incubator while going from yard to yard. As others have, I could write much about my experience with the cells, but think it a bit redundant. The best thing to do is just try them. Approximately 5% of the cells hatched as I was placing them, but do not consider that much of a problem as it is important that the cells be shipped just before emergence so as not to harm them. Placing an occasional queen in a split posed no problem. The real problem is keeping hives alive for a year. We need better queen stock, desperately! Years of chemical build-up, I believe, has taken its toll. Replacing brood comb pays!" Personally, I think Miksa is on to something of real importance and intend to try some cells this year. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:32:22 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Shipping queen cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There were plenty of bees to keep the cells warm so I did not bother to put them in my > incubator while going from yard to yard. With this method of shipping cells with live bees in a battery type box, aren't you concerned about the possibility of shipping small hive beetles? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:11:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Browder Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers In-Reply-To: <131.2a048b3d.2d62a72f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The inner cover I have is a Goble inner cover. I didn't know its name. However, I would like it even better if it had a deep side and a shallow side. I have not seen one in any of my catalogs that is made that way. Does anyone have a source? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:15:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers Comments: To: andrew.browder@VERIZON.NET Andrew Browder wrote: "The inner cover I have is a Goble inner cover.... However, I would like it even better if it had a deep side and a shallow side.... Does anyone have a source?" Brushy Mountain's Goble Inner Cover has the specifications you require. Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:24:27 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Skriba Subject: Re: Shipping queen cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Just my 2 cents here, last year we made 60 splits of 2 frames of brood and bees and a frame of honey configured in 3 sections in a deep. I orderd queen cells to arrive on June 3, from Miksa's. Picked them up on a cold rainy day at the UPS center, and placed them in each. We got 47 to take of the 60. We had to feed for a while, but did manage to average 40 pounds surplus on them none the less. ( We ran these as singles and then placed over double deep colonies to see how they would do this winter, of the 47 singles we still have 43 alive, and we have had some brutal cold here in Michigan). This was our first year of experimenting with queen cells and overwintering singles and we'll do it again this year. I was very pleased with the outcome and the assistance and patience of Dave Miksa. Bill Skriba :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:29:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Andrew, Pray tell me WHY you want a shallow side and a deep side? Reversing inner covers to different depths is as archaic as Women's bustles. There are still those people that use the shallow side down, and their bees swarm for lack of space. People that use the deep side down do NOT get any burr comb on frame tops UNLESS the bees are crowded for space. I have used the deep side down for over 40 years, but always over 4-5 supers when I expect to get maybe 3 full supers of HONEY. You HAVE to leave room for the bees to store lots of THIN WATERY nectar until they have time to evaporate perhaps 60% of the water and ripen that thin nectar into thick honey. However, the MOST IMPORTANT asset of a GOBLE inner cover is its use in the WINTER time. That upper entrance hole allows the warm exhaled MOIST breath of the clustered bees to ESCAPE the hive rather than cool and condense into droplets of water on the cold inner cover and "rain down" on the warm bee cluster. PROPER hive ventilation is so important in cold weather. Bees are NOT LIKE we humans who desire a temperature of 72°-75° the year around. COLD does NOT kill bees, but DAMPNESS enhances bee diseases that DO kill bees.. I hope I have helped. George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:18:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Intermediate Caste Syndrome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Roger & All, Roger said: Check this file. http://www.beedata.com/beebiz/files99/beebiz13-april2002.pdf An excellent comparison of varroa j. and varroa d. is in the above on *pg. 13* " The Varroa Mite: A Cure in Sight". Ruary and Peter see how obvious the difference is? Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:47:06 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kevin Gibbs Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Are you sure it is the fungicide that is killing the bees? No I'm not sure but strongly suspect the fungicide. >There is a > published paper from New Zealand that shows that wetting agents will kill > bees. So if they are putting wetting agent in the fungicide that could be > the problem. I'm sure it is not wetting agent related. I have read Mark Goodwin and H McBrydie's surfactant report at http://www.hortnet.co.nz/publications/nzpps/proceedings/00/00_230.pdf I understand that soap is a surfactant too which is why it is so effective at killing unwanted bees (in buildings etc). And also that surfactant kills immediately by asphyxiation at the flowers, not at hive entrance. Grower 1 used Bond Extra as the sticker (aka surfactant and wetting agent) and I first thought this was the problem so sent him a copy of the report and asked him to not use any stickers. He sprayed the following week without any stickers and got a good kill again so stopped spraying. Grower 2 sprayed at 4:00 am (the same day grower 1 sprayed without a sticker) used no sticker and got a good kill. These two growers agreed to stop spraying and the kills stopped. For this reason I suspect the fungicides themselves. By shear coincidence there MAY have been other sprays applied in the same area, but the kills did stop. My next move was to have been placing a cage with a few bees directly by the flowers as the sprayer passed but we never had to take this action. Maybe someone on the list will have a chance to do this in Almonds and if any growers do not use stickers and report back to us. Remenber if stickers are applied to bees, they die. Perhaps this explains why some products do not require bee kill warnings........... Quote from the above surfactant report EFFECT OF SURFACTANTS ON HONEY BEE SURVIVAL R.M. GOODWIN and H.M. McBRYDIE "As surfactants are not classed as pesticides they are usually not required to be registered and carry honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) warning labels." Could it be that fungicides too do not require warnings as they are not classed as pesticides? Kevin Gibbs New Zealand :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 06:46:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Jeffries Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin said > Could it be that fungicides too do not require warnings as they are not > classed as pesticides? My understanding is that "pesticides" include products that are "insecticides", "herbicides", "fungicides" and any other "cide" that is used to control pests. Certain fungi are pests. Dave J. Manitoba, Canada :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:50:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Are you sure it is the fungicide that is killing the bees? > > No I'm not sure but strongly suspect the fungicide. Yup. It is likely the fungicide. At the ABF there was a presentation by I forget who, that explained that researchers examining the effect of fungicides on bees in almond pollination found that different *brands* of the *same* chemical varied widely, from almost harmelss to quite lethal, as I recall. Hopefully someone on the list was in that session and paying better attention than I was? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:18:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California "explained that researchers examining the effect of fungicides on bees in almond pollination found that different *brands* of the *same* chemical varied widely, from almost harmelss to quite lethal, as I recall." I think most people would be suprised to the extent which many farm managers believe "If a little bit is good, then alot is better". I even had a Professor at the University brag to a class that I was in how he doubled recommended doses for some chemicals. There is another factor, and that is "cocktails" where a person of experience can mix two or more different chemicals, usually illegally to get synergism. They naturally don't talk about it. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:02:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California In-Reply-To: <1059.69.10.162.78.1076822432.squirrel@shastawebmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I drove down the center of California on 5 last Saturday and saw pallets of hives in dozen drops 50-75 yards apart along the bare branched orchards. Among the tumbleweeds I doubt there is much natural forage. I waved to the driver of an empty flatbed labeled with the name of an Upland apiary (300 miles SE) who must have wondered why. Three days later I returned by the same route and the trees were bursting with blossoms. The storm that ravaged the north of the state left the blossoms in the valley untouched. (I puzzled over the sight of some hives with a shallow under a deep.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:03:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reversing inner covers to different depths is as archaic as Women's bustles. Those of us who have been reading for a long time understand the limits of such arbitrary statements, but new readers may well be lead astray. I've noticed that we have also been drifting back to general statements that are only very generally true, and which may, in fact, be very *untrue* in specific situations. Some recent general and unqualified comments extolling ventilation seemed to me to be subject to misunderstanding, and the statement quoted above is of the sort that can discourage those who had thus far seem potential in such items and had been finding them most useful. I think the one thing we have all learned here on BEE-L is that there is tremendous diversity in beekeeping from region to region, and that there are many different objectives -- and many diverse and valid methods of achieving them. Because of that diversity, there are many designs and many various pieces of equipment and practices that may be essential to one such system, but may be totally inappropriate for another. Although some may not find any use for the rims in question, in their specific management systems, in their specific region, in their finite number of yards, many other very good beekeepers may very well find them indispensable at times, whether for formic application, patty feeding, or for other purposes. It sems to me that there is not benefit in dismissing items or practices, except in specific contexts, for specific purposes. Personally, I have no use for an Imrie shim, and consider them totally useless for my management methods, yet I would not tell someone else not to use them, and I benefit from hearing others explain their use. I hope we can avoid disparaging one another's equipment or methods, assuming they are legal and not dangerous. Let's keep our minds open. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:02:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Beekeeping in the Midwest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Many Midwestern beekeepers on Bee-L have asked me to every once in awhile tell what is going on with hives of mine. Today I looked at four yards of overwintered Missouri hives. I picked areas in which I have trouble wintering. Not enough windbreak etc. All yards have got good and bad points. some of my best yards are great in every aspect BUT wintering. Light winter not a problem. Severe winter and look for winter losses. I had to walk into all places because of mud. The snow cover is melting and water is high in low areas. Even with my four wheel drive I was glad after I walked in I had not taken in the truck as instead of writting now I might be waiting to be pulled out. Most rural people know what I am about to say but others might not. In spring after snow cover and after the first spring thaw the ground is very soft. What we need is a rain to harden the ground up. Sounds crazy but true in the midwest. 70% chance of rain Friday so if arrives I will be able to get in the yards with the big truck with syrup tote before long. All the four yards I checked had live bees but one. I had a skid of three dead hives in a yard on a 200 acre cattle farm. The hives still had honey and a dead large cluster but two of the dead hives had the top deep box on turned upside down. If the cattle had knocked the hives over or the farmer with a piece of equipment the farmer will tell me. If vandals then I will most likely never find out but I assure you I did not put those two boxes on upside down with the dividion board feeders pointed down. If knocked over early in winter then the bees most likely died early on and perhaps the farmer set back up recently. The skid was the end skid in a line of skids .I did not pick up the deadouts because with all the mud I had to walk about 200 feet into the yard. Due to the severe drought we saw last summer and fall I gave extra care getting those bees ready for winter which I believe paid off. I believe those in our area which depended on fall honey flows to give your bees the stores for winter might be in for a surprise as I fed heavily and although not starving many will need feed before dandelions bloom in my opinion (if not sooner). Because we are seeing a couple days with temps around 60F. will others in our area which have checked your bees report what you are seeing. I have had one call of a beekeeper with around 70% dead looking for spring nucs. We got a positive in bees in our area with coumaphos resistant varroa. Checkmite did not control varroa in those hives last fall. The hives were not mine but I was asked for advice. High varroa infestation in fall will kill hives over the winter. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:37:23 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: raising queens In-Reply-To: <000001c3ed7b$e27b5640$43bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <000001c3ed7b$e27b5640$43bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >All of mated queens I raised from the above II >breeder queen will produce drones 100% pure to the source stock because the >drones are haploid and no genetic crossing has taken place. They get half the mother's genes and half the fathers'. You don't know which half. What you can say, is that you won't lose the genes, you have only diluted them. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:33:28 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: raising queens In-Reply-To: <24.4ed6dc57.2d55bdb8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <24.4ed6dc57.2d55bdb8@aol.com>, GImasterBK@AOL.COM writes >Further, science as shown >that >bees descending from constant superseded queens are inferior, disease prone, >and >lose all of their genetic good qualities The word constant is the key one here. But if you have a good genetic pool of the drones, then supersedure can go along a good few years without much inbreeding. Comments please, remembering we do have native bees here with good diversity. >a swarm totally destroys the financial >return >of a colony, so he requeens every fall to prevent swarming during a nectar >flow, This is a good method for a large scale operation and a lot of hive movement. I prefer to select and replace from my own best strains, bearing in mind that bees are native to my country and the local bee, when selected for the best traits, produces well. So I am prepared to examine regularly and replace poorer queens from over-wintered nucs or use these colonies in the rearing process. With 50 hives it works and as a sideliner I don't want to be moving my bees around in search of pollination contracts or honey crops. In our weather, a proper supersedure (one or 2 cells, well fed) is an advantage. As I mentioned in another post, my best performing queen was 3 years old before she made swarming preparations so she was split and her daughters are doing fine. Like you, George, I get several times the average crop for the hobbyist and I sell jars, comb and candles in the local shops and it is asked for when not on the shelf. >because YOUNG queens just don't swarm I have been told 10:30:30:30 are typical % swarming for the 1st season (from spring rearing to winter):2nd:3rd:4th seasons (the 4th season amounts to 3 calendar years from rearing, hence the 4th season queen is only 3 years old. What is the experience on the list? I'd like to get it right for my students. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:47:18 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Fw: Raising queens In-Reply-To: <004c01c3ece3$634c1e10$b5939ac2@haris8cjgnhodj> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <004c01c3ece3$634c1e10$b5939ac2@haris8cjgnhodj>, Roger White writes >I always regard >supersedure queens as inferior. I am joining in this debate a bit late. Are we talking different races again. In our unpredictable climate (why do you think Brits often talk about the weather!) supersedure is a valuable trait which our bees use quite a lot. The chance of reproduction without the risk of a swarm and its demise (it has been said that around 3/4 of swarms here die out) and the chance of rearing a second queen if the first did not mate or got taken by a bird give supersedures a distinct advantage over the swarmers. Couple that with apiary vicinity mating and you can see that even in out poor weather, continuity can be attained. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:02:59 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Fw: Raising queens In-Reply-To: <402419B7.5080809@cox-internet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <402419B7.5080809@cox-internet.com>, Charles Harper writes >My opinion on supersedure queens is as such, in a queen loss the bees >select lava of varying ages some too old to be a good queen over 3 days >old this queen emerges first then cuts all the good queens leaving a >inferior queen to head the hive. This is not supersedure to my mind. Supersedure cells are cells that are constructed, developed and hatched whilst the old queen continues and the colony does not swarm. The classic signs are the placement of the cell - in the centre of the nest, perhaps high on the comb, even on the top bar - and the numbers of cells - often only 1, sometimes 2 or 3 only - and their shape - proud and central in the gap. Can we agree that the situation you have described is a classic emergency cell one which does indeed require intervention? In the cases where I have accidentally killed the queen (I suggest this is the most likely scenario, especially when you inspect regularly, because you do have a native bee, want to preserve the best local traits and don't need to buy in packages every year or replace all your queens with young ones) I have discovered this 7 days later and been able to cull the sealed cells, leaving an unsealed one. Had I waited 10 days, I would have the scenario you describe, of a runt queen. For the record, on local selection rather than importing bees, we often have 3rd year queens out-producing 1st year queens - in fact my best producing queen ever was 3 years old - over 200lb of honey in a static apiary where the local average of the hobbyist is around the 40lb mark.It beat the rest of the apiary which had several hives producing 160lb and others 100lb. In this case, and in this apiary, the hives are larger, with 14" square frames. So the colony had also produced massive amounts of brood as well. I now have a good strain in this apiary and it is my preferred mating site. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:40:03 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: raising queens In-Reply-To: <000f01c3ecb2$011086e0$8101000a@unit5> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <000f01c3ecb2$011086e0$8101000a@unit5>, Steve Rose writes >I hope to select >in future from within my present strain to reduce things like defensiveness >without losing the supercedure trait. My one worry was that late queens may >have difficulty in finding a plentiful supply of drones which could compete >for her. We have late drones here and supersedure is common from July on, especially during the summer flow. Unfortunately it comes with a price - a few years ago several of my supersedures failed because autumn was awful and the colonies died out taking the trait with them. I had hoped the old queens would have carried on, but they didn't - they had left it rather late. Occasionally we have spring supersedures and those colonies have overwintered their drones. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:31:25 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Fw: Raising queens In-Reply-To: <402527EB.6040506@cox-internet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <402527EB.6040506@cox-internet.com>, Charles Harper writes >We are cutting fine lines that the bees will not cut. >Bees consider ALL Supersedures Emergency. I am surprised at this view. I had a colony last year that was showing a lower than expected mite count which produced one classic supersedure cell: in the middle, proud and large and sealed. Taking the view that they would make more if they wanted, I made up a nuc from the frame and cell and she's doing fine. Mum carried on without laying up any further queen cells and went into the winter strong. We do have the occasional 2-queen colonies coming from supersedure and we do have evidence of sister-sister compatibility in our bees (I have not seen it, but I have had mother-daughter colonies continue for a while like that). Perhaps this was one, where mum would continue for a while. I will confirm this quite soon of course, as soon as I can get myself out. Previously I have had several colonies with only 1 or 2 cells and I have reared from these cells: in only one case did the colonies rear further queens (this one did supersede), so this is not the first time. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:51:29 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: More mites! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Can anyone identify these mites (or suggest someone that can)? The Natural History Museum want Ł78 per sample - probably reasonable, but beyond my budget: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Images/Mites.htm Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 01:23:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers In-Reply-To: <008901c3f65a$5b6e7140$64b85ad1@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> Reversing inner covers to different depths is as >> archaic as Women's >> bustles. > > Those of us who have been reading for a long time > understand the limits of > such arbitrary statements, but new readers may well > be lead astray. For other beginners like me, I may explain why I make my inner covers with one deep side and one thin side. I use the deep side to clip a plastic bee escape (Nicot, imported). I let permanently 4 screws in the deep side used to clip the plastic device when needed so that the inner cover is transformed into a bee escape. Just one equipment instead of 2. But this requires that the ventilation hole is made in the deep side of the inner cover. The telescopic roof is placed without inner cover for 24h. When harvested is done, I then un-clip the plastic bee escape (losange shape, same principle as triangular shape of Quebec bee escape board) and put back the inner cover. Hervé Le Rucher d'Émélys www.emelys.com Yahoo! Mail : votre e-mail personnel et gratuit qui vous suit partout ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:40:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, I never MENTIONED the Imirie SHIM, so you are "reading" between the lines. I write for "general" uses or management techniques, understanding that many competent beekeepers might disagree due to their location, the race of their bees, their aim be it pollination, honey production, or hobby; and I make no attempt to cover all bases. After all, JFK bested Nixon by 50.1% to 49.9% to become President; and neither side gave a damn about all those other candidates from minority groups. I stand firm in my statements regarding ventilation of a colony, EVEN IN WINTER, is very important, and I don't use or even suggest Imirie Shims for that. Upper Entrances in a Goble type Inner Cover is what I use for upper entrance ventilation; whereas the Imirie Shim should ONLY be used in between supers during a nectar flow, and no other time. I resent your comments: moderator or not! George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:27:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Ontario Beekeepers' Spring Meetings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Ontario Beekeepers' Association www.ontariobee.com has 3 days of = meetings scheduled for the 6-8 of April, 2004 in Collingwood. Pollination Meeting April 6th. www.ontariobee.com/8_meetings/pollination.htm Commercial Meeting April 7th www.ontariobee.com/8_meetings/commercial.htm Ontario Bee Breeders Meeting April 8th www.ontariobee.com/8_meetings/ontario_bee_%20breeders.htm All are welcome! For details or questions contact Virginia Steckle, Business Administrator Ontario Beekeepers' Association Bayfield, ON N0M 1G0 519-565-2622 phone 519-565-5452 fax=20 www.ontariobee.com=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:23:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: raising queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James & All, I wrote: >All of mated queens I raised from the above II >breeder queen will produce drones 100% pure to the source stock because the drones are haploid and no genetic crossing has taken place. James said: >They get half the mother's genes and half the fathers'. You don't >know which half. What you can say, is that you won't lose the >genes, you have only diluted them. Any drones genetic makeup is from his mother only. You could say the genetic makeup of a drone is half of its grandma's and half of its grandpa's. Let me walk you through what I was getting at James: 1. I have got production queens which are daughters of a pure Russian queen instrumentally inseminated (II) with sperm from a pure Russian drone. 2.The grafted daughters from the above pure II Russian queen & pure Russian drones were open mated to a line of New World carnolian drones and put into production hives. 3. I can now take a new II Russian / Russian queen (from a different line) and graft queens. I can then use the above II daughter queens which were mated to NWC drones as a drone source because the drones (which come from unfertilized eggs) will be *pure Russian* and not NWC because the drones are 100% pure to the source stock and no genetic crossing has taken place. Any daughters of the above Russian /NWC mating would of course be hybrids. The resulting *workers* from the new grafted pure Russian daughters (red or blue line 2004) and the Russian/nwc production queens (2003) *drones* would be PURE RUSSIAN or true to the source stock. The fact those 2003 queens were open mated to New world carnolians (NWC) has nothing to do with the drone stock. Hope you now understand or am I misunderstanding your question? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:26:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: VIRUS MAY CAUSE AGGRESSION IN HONEYBEES In-Reply-To: <001c01c3f58c$8609ed90$e6e9d518@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI Public release date: 17-Feb-2004 Contact: Jim Sliwa jsliwa@asmusa.org 202-942-9297 American Society for Microbiology Tips from the Journals of the American Society for Microbiology VIRUS MAY CAUSE AGGRESSION IN HONEYBEES An unidentified viral infection may be the cause of aggression in worker honeybees, say researchers from Japan. Their findings appear in the February 2004 issue of the Journal of Virology. While initially trying to pinpoint genes responsible for aggressive behavior in worker honeybees, the researchers stumbled upon a novel RNA sequence, which they named Kakugo, that could only be found in the brains of honeybees that displayed aggressive behavior toward a hornet decoy. They believe that the RNA is an indicator of a viral infection. "These results demonstrate that Kakugo RNA is a plus-strand RNA of a novel picorna-like virus and that the brains of aggressive workers are infected by this novel virus," say the researchers. "In aggressive workers, Kakugo RNA was detected in the brain but not in the thorax or abdomen, indicating a close relation between viral infection in the brain and aggressive worker behaviors." (T. Fujiyuki, H. Takeuchi, M. Ono, S. Ohka, T. Sasaki, A. Nomoto, T. Kubo. 2003. Novel insect picorna-like virus identified in the brains of aggressive worker honeybees. Journal of Virology, 78. 3: 1093-1100.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:16:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: Re: Fw: Raising queens In-Reply-To: <200402182217.i1IE6TGH004645@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, This mention of 3rd year queens out-producing young queens is an interesting observation. Do you have any ideas as to why this is? Thomas Martin Shippensburg, Pa >For the record, on local selection rather than importing bees, >we often >have 3rd year queens out-producing 1st year queens - in fact >my best -- >James Kilty Email without internet subscribe@emypeople.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:21:42 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers > The inner cover I have is a Goble... > However, I would like... > a deep side and a shallow side... > Does anyone have a source? At risk of suggesting the obvious, find someone with a table saw and a dadoo blade, or a router with a router table, and cut the openings (or have the tool owner do it) in your "standard" inner covers. Each cover would take only seconds to cut. jim (a saw screams at midnight!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:21:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Almond Bloom in California In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.1.20040218094420.02003488@pop.lmi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Three days later I > returned by the same route and the trees were bursting with blossoms. > The storm that ravaged the north of the state left the blossoms in the > valley untouched. > (I puzzled over the sight of some hives with a shallow under a deep.) The warm wet weather is bringing the bloom on fast now.If it turns sunny,it will be a fast furious pollination with a good overlap of bloom.Blue Diamond Growers are doing daily updates through the critical blooming period. http://www.bluediamond.com/growers/field/index.cfm Everyone has their favorite hive configuration.Some like double deeps,others like a deep and medium. ---Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:19:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Fw: Raising queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James & All, James said: For the record, on local selection rather than importing bees, we often have 3rd year queens out-producing 1st year queens - in fact my best producing queen ever was 3 years old - over 200lb the colony had also produced massive amounts of brood as well. I now have a good strain in this apiary and it is my preferred mating site. Prolific is a good quality and perhaps the reason why the colony did as good as it did. Murray M. also talks of using old queens which surprises me as most commercial beekeepers prefer young queens because research has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they are less prone to swarm all thing being equal over a three year old queen. Commercial beekeepers also prefer young queens as three year old queens can and do many times become drone layers in their third year due to being poorly mated in inclimate conditions (kind of like the weather in Georgia, U.S.A. and England in spring.) The commercial beekeeper has time invested, meds bought and installed and when the queen becomes a drone layer or the hive becomes queenless then the hive becomes a liability. The situation worsens when the hive is invaded by wax moths before picked up by the beekeeper. Queens are the heart of the colony! In the early seventies Roger Morse ( author 1979 book titled "Rearing Queen Honey Bees") asked James Powers, owner of Power apiaries inc. ,which operated 34,000 hives of bees in five U.S. states and was considered the largest bee operation in the world at the time why he raised his own queens and did not buy queens. James Powers answer taken from the preface of the above book: "Queen rearing is too important a task to leave to someone else". As far as an open mating area James you really need to control the drones for ten miles in all directions for close to perfect drone control. The main reason instrumental insemination is popular with queen breeders. I am getting some production queens this year which are being open mated by a California noted beekeeper/queen breeder in the middle of a 2500 acre ranch which has no other bee hives around. Not perfect but a decent effort at open mating drone control as the area of the mating yards is being flooded with the drones of choice. Until I was contacted by the above beekeeper which believes the same as I do I thought I was going to have to produce what I want as the queens I am looking for are simply not available from the present group of U.S. queen breeders. I still am going to do the project I explained to James with the Russian bees. In other words it takes two seasons to get the stock to raise Russian bees and I am not even sure Russian bees is what I am looking for but willing to try and see after all the work the Baton rouge Bee lab has put into the project. I do not know how well the Russians produce honey as only going into my second year with Russians. The drought (worse in a 100 years in our area) made it hard to judge honey production. Those which swear by the Russian bees honey production are selling Russian breeders. I need to see for myself. I have found a friend off of BEE-L ( a lurker) which is going to help me learn what I need to raise quality queens, evaluate queens and hopefully teach me to do instrumental insemination. He has offered. I will say the Russian hives I looked at today seemed to winter well *but* so did the Italians, the carniolans and the Italian/ carniolan hybrids I looked at. Maybe wintering has more to do with the beekeeper than the strain of bees? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:55:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: Winter dampness in hives In-Reply-To: <200402190500.i1J50NNL001956@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George Imirie wrote: PROPER hive ventilation is so important in cold weather. Bees are NOT LIKE we humans who desire a temperature of 72°-75° the year around. COLD does NOT kill bees, but DAMPNESS enhances bee diseases that DO kill bees.." For what it is worth: Years ago, in the 1980's, I ran bees up north of Indianapolis, Indiana, just six to ten hives. I always had four 3/4" blocks of wood underneath my outer covers at the four corners year around. Whether due to luck or whatever, I never had a deadout in the spring, or at any time of the year for that matter. But..... That was a long time ago in a world far, far away. MIKE - located in south, central Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:56:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I never MENTIONED the Imirie SHIM, so you are "reading" between the lines. Not really. I was changing the subject a bit, and I apologise. > I write for "general" uses or management techniques, understanding that many > competent beekeepers might disagree due to their location, the race of their > bees, their aim be it pollination, honey production, or hobby; and I make no > attempt to cover all bases. Yes, I realise that, and I appreciate what you are doing, but sometimes, i think you are oversimplifying. > After all, JFK bested Nixon by 50.1% to 49.9% to become President; and > neither side gave a damn about all those other candidates from minority > groups. That was then. This is now. Besides that is US politics, and this is an international group. Who cares? > I stand firm in my statements regarding ventilation of a colony, EVEN IN > WINTER, is very important, and I don't use or even suggest Imirie Shims\> for that. > Upper Entrances in a Goble type Inner Cover is what I use for upper entrance > ventilation; whereas the Imirie Shim should ONLY be used in between supers > during a nectar flow, and no other time. Ventilation is important. No argument. BUT, when people start saying that cold does not kill bees, that is when I say, "Whoa". Cold *does* kill bees (eventually), but in moderation, cold is usually not the biggest problem. Ventilation has to be appropriate for the environment in question. Too litle is bad, anywhere, but too much is, well... too much, and that is a matter of judgement. > I resent your comments: moderator or not! Gee, George. We're on the same side here. Let's work together on this. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Back from Lotusland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:38:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Liz Corbett Subject: IPM/formic acid workshop Integrated Pest Management Workshop "hands on" - bring a bee veil! facilitated by: Alison Skinner - OBA tech transfer scientist and David VanderDussen - NOD Apiary Products Ltd. Join us for an enjoyable full day workshop covering: - varroa mites and other bee diseases (AFB, EFB, tracheal mites) and how to treat them. - IPM principals such as identification of disease or pest, treatments thresholds, treatment options. - Non organic (hard chemicals) and organic treatments (soft chemicals). - Hands-on workshop: sticky board preparation, ether rolls, sugar shake, alcohol wash, screen bottom boards and application of formic acid pads. - Preventative mite controls: Queen breeding (Russian, Buckfast, SMR), hygienic behaviour, quick test Ontario stock. Two dates and two locations in Ontario: Saturday, March 6, 2004, Kemptville College (eastern Ont.) Saturday, March 13, 2004, University of Guelph (western Ont.) 9:00 am till 5:00 pm Cost: $95.00 per participant includes lunch, workbook and all materials Call Liz toll free at 866-483-2929 (Canada or US) for more information or to register. Registration required by March 1st. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:03:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: National Insect MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Second Notice Would any beekeepers in America be interested in lobbing congress to make the Honey Bee this nation the national insect? Many states has it as their state insect so surely beekeepers in those states would help by writing, emailing, or phoning. Russ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:51:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To those who like the plastic hivetop feeders: do you make floating = screens for them? I'm used to doing that for my home-made wooden = feeders. Walter Weller :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:50:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chris Wave Subject: help for novelist in boston area MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am submitting this on behalf of a novelist friend whose main character has a few hives on a hobby farm outside of Boston. Any beekeepers in that area that could suggest believable plants honeybees would visit? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:03:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Hack Subject: Re: Fall Requeening (from raising queens) In-Reply-To: <1076256618.40265f6a09c52@209.51.153.186> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry for the delay in acknowledging your responses (got laid up for a few days) Thank you all for your input. I was hoping that the answer might be simple, but, as is often the case, the devil is in the details. I guess I will just have to go out and experiment with the various methods that can be applied in my situation and see where it takes me. Cheers, Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:37:01 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: Almond bloom in California Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings All. In November 2000, I was asked by Elliot Chemicals Ltd. to test four spray adjuvants on honey bees. The adjuvants were Du-Wett, Li-700, Bond, and Bond Xtra. Three different concentrations were applied directly, or were fed to bees in cages, and all tests were replicated three times, and results were compared with dimethoate and distilled water. The concentrations tested were well above those used in the field. Testing procedures were those of the OECD Guidlines for the Testing of Chemicals of 21 September 1998. Despite some mortality for two of the three cages of Bond Xtra at 1% when applied topically, none of the adjuvants were found to be toxic to honey bees at any concentration tested. Of course the test conditions differed from field conditions, but because the concentrations tested were above those used in the field, there is a strong implication that these materials themselves would not be toxic to honey bees in the field. Donovan, B. J. and Elliot, G. S. 2001: Honey bee response to high concentrations of some new spray adjuvants. New Zealand Plant Protection 54: 51-55. Donovan, B. J. 2001: Laboratory tests show that some new spray adjuvants are benign to honey bes. The Orchardist 74, 5: 38-39. Regards, Barry Donovan Canterbury Agriculture and Science Centre, Lincoln, New Zealand. ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:41:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Hive configurations In-Reply-To: <008a01c3eb33$92459900$fde9d518@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 In message <008a01c3eb33$92459900$fde9d518@newdell>, Lloyd Spear writes >Here in the Northeast, what we call a one and a half (1 ˝) story hive is >commonly used. I believe it is also a very common configuration in parts of >the upper mid-west. The deep (the '1') is a standard Langstroth, 9.5" deep. >The medium can be either 4ľ", 5.5", 6 5/8" or 7 5/8" deep. Interesting. Has anyone experimented with a taller hive for a static operation. Your 1 1/2 is roughly the same size as my 14" square frame hives. Brutes to lift with heavy wood, so useless for pollination, without 2 to move them. the hive is 18" square so can take 11 or even 12 frames. The beauty is the nest is elongated vertically, which conserves heat in the spring and makes for larger brood rearing areas for the same number of adult bees. At least I get up to 10 frames virtually full of brood, which explains my better yields from static hives. There is no need to exchange boxes and no problem crossing wood or gaps. Leaving off the queen excluder with empty frame in the supers does risk the chimney effect. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:33:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Varroa and mites In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A1090D2731@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A1090D2731@email.albany.edu>, Aaron Morris writes >What was initially thought to be a preference for drones > is >now being chalked up to other causes, such as the fact that drone cells are >uncapped for a longer period than worker cells, hence it is more likely that >varroa will find their way into the uncapped cells. And they are fed longer, so more young bees pass by. And they go in earlier which gives them ore time. I was told when we first had them, that drone food has a different Ph than worker food at the time that varroa enter the cells and that changed the smell to one they had learned to recognise. Is this true? -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:50:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Feeding in the middle of a cold winter. In-Reply-To: <00a501c3eaf1$188cbb80$0cc887d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <00a501c3eaf1$188cbb80$0cc887d9@oemcomputer>, Peter Edwards writes in reply to my >> Cut a cross in the bag etc and >place over the hole above the >> cluster. Bees will climb up and have some insulation. said >This is fine if the cluster is under the feed hole, and >they will not move from it if the weather is cold - >so they may not be able to use the sugar supplied. Very true. There is some control with a 2-hole crown board as it can be rotated to suit most situations. Alas, I fell into the trap of thinking "my bees" and "my weather". Having put a few upturned used Chinese takeaway trays full of bakers fondant over holes in nuc lids I saw my bees active in our mild winter - or has it been spring for a couple of weeks or more? -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:12:48 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kevin Gibbs Subject: Re: Almond bloom in California MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Despite some mortality for two of the three cages of Bond Xtra at 1% > when applied topically, none of the adjuvants were found to be toxic to > honey bees at any concentration tested. Hi Barry I'm pleased to hear of your trials. I will hunt down the articles and read them I see you mixed at 1%. I take it you sprayed these on at rates used in the field or higher? Kevin Gibbs :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:29:11 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kevin Gibbs Subject: Re: hivetop feeder floats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >To those who like the plastic hivetop feeders: do you make floating screens for them? I'm used to doing that for my home->made wooden feeders. >Walter Weller A lot of local beekeepers use grass, sticks and fern but it's always a pain to keep replacing. We have found a thick corrugated plastic that is 8 mm thick and if cut so there is a 10-15 mm gap from the edges, works great. We tried a 4 mm thick corrugated plastic real estate sign but the weight of bees pushes it just below the syrup surface resulting in a lot of drowned bees. The 8mm one is excellent and permanent. Kevin Gibbs :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:50:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Beekeeperc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: National Insect MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think that it will be adopted at the national insect since it was brought to the east coast about 1622 from England. The Indians called it the White Man's Fly. Norm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:34:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Almond bloom in California Thanks for the valuable post, Barry. I can't stand in judgment when it comes to cocktails, for very practical reasons ;-) but your research points to what I suspect. At the end of the day, the boss wants results, and the temptation to mix chemicals becomes at times more than most humans in the industry can resist with. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:47:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa and mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris writes >What was initially thought to be a preference for drones is now being chalked up to other causes, such as the fact that drone cells are uncapped for a longer period than worker cells, hence it is more likely that varroa will find their way into the uncapped cells. James said: And they are fed longer, so more young bees pass by. And they go in earlier which gives them ore time. I was told when we first had them, that drone food has a different Ph than worker food at the time that varroa enter the cells and that changed the smell to one they had learned to recognise. Is this true? Don't know! what I do know is why varroa seems to prefer drone brood is still a mystery. Could be any of the above *or* some yet undiscovered reason. Ask any beekeeper. If you want to find varroa in your colony look in the drone brood first. At least a dozen other possible hypothesis for why varroa seem to prefer drone brood exist besides those put forth by Aaron & James. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:54:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Re: National Insect In-Reply-To: <65.22c98f3e.2d666d93@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Norm thinks the fact that the honeybee immigrated with English settlers would disqualify it for a national insect. I think it is perfectly fitting to have it for a national insect because it has come from another country (countries) and has been very beneficial to the population and environment of our country. In regards to "the white man's fly" James Baker wrote the following excerpt found at http://www.ecok.edu/dept/english/write/baker2.html "Native Americans called the European bee "the white man's fly," since the swarming European bee often preceded the arrival of settlers by several months. References in literature can be found concerning the honey bees' arrival in early America, one of them from Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's The Song of Hiawatha. Referring to the white men, Longfellow tells us that Hiawatha believed "whereso'er they move, before them swarms the stinging fly, the Ahmo, swarms the bee, the honey maker". " Tom Patterson, Aurora, CO :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:39:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/19/2004 9:01:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, GImasterBK@AOL.COM writes: whereas the Imirie Shim should ONLY be used in between supers during a nectar flow, and no other time. Actually, George, I keep one on above the inner cover to make space beetween the cover and the top. When I scrape burr comb or have scraped comb with honey in it, or have cappings to feed back to the bees, the IS is perfect for making space so the bees aren't squished! BTW, did you receive my private email? I have had computer problems. Kathy Cox, Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets Northern California, Italian, 13 hives www.kathycox.frankcox.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 09:26:11 -0500 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: National Insect MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After much debate, the honeybee, the "Angel of Agriculture," lost out in a bid to be named the Ohio State Official Insect. In June 1975, the Ohio legislature declared the common lady-bug, officially named the Ladybird Beetle, the state insect. The ladybug was chosen for its attractive markings and helpful eating habits. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:16:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Chemical spraying (was Almond bloom in California) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim said: At the end of the day, the boss wants results, and the temptation to mix chemicals becomes at times more than most humans in the industry can resist with. As a *small* orchard owner and also doing pollination I will add my input. I am not an organic grower and only use a light chemical spray when my back is against the wall. Chemical mixes are the norm rather than the exception with the growers which use chemicals. When they head out with a several 100 gallon tank to spray several hundred acres of trees they want to make as few spray rounds as possible. Labor , fuel and time concerns are the main reasons. Some labels say what the product can be mixed with and others do not as no research has been done. Many orchard owners spray by the calendar and not by the need. Spraying when trees are in bloom . Before trees have fully ended bloom and when trees are in partial bloom while bees are in the area cause bee kills. Not mowing the ground cover which in our area can be yellow with dandelions and white with white Dutch clover before spraying causes bee kills. The number one reason for bee kills in my opinion is the fact that most orchard crews work the day shift and simply do not want to spray around dusk and at night. Might miss their favorite TV program! Crop dusters especially do not like to spray at night. I admit unless a moonlit night can be dangerous. The above has killed more bees than chemical cocktails ever have in my opinion. Trying to get a grower or crop duster to pay for dead bees is tough and only happens in rare cases. The USDA boll weevil eradication program in Texas & Missouri is one of the biggest offenders. Even when *iron clad proof* exists that their crop dusters killed hives they fight reimbursements for dead hives. Even when they do pay the amount only covers the bees and not the lost income or labor. If the moderators do not see fit to run the post with the following I will resubmit without the below but feel should be included. I have talked to a couple of the dumbest people from the Boll weevil eradication program I have ever met. They did not have a clue about the bee kill/ THEIR HIRED CROP DUSTER situation. They wanted my advice. They admitted their hired crop duster had sprayed in broad daylight with plants in bloom when bees were in plain sight and the beekeeper was not notified of the spraying. I advised to settle right away and still they drag their feet causing the beekeepers to have consider taking possible legal action. Over and over in Missouri the USDA hired crop dusters are spraying cotton fields without notifying the beekeeper (required ) ,spraying in the middle of the day when cotton is in bloom and spraying over the top of hives sitting in plain site on the edge of the field. The problem has cotton so bad that the beekeeper has quit putting hives on cotton and has stacks and stacks of deadouts. The USDA had not paid for a single hive last time I talked to the beekeepers in the "boot heel" of Missouri! I personally am astounded when I hear the program will not take care of dead hives caused by their negligence. I can understand a cheap grower maybe trying to avoid payment but I would expect the USDA to step up to the plate and solve the problem and pay for their mistakes! Perhaps a higher up the USDA food chain might read the above and look into the situation. Those "boot heel" beekeepers do not know I am standing up for their problem on BEE-L . Can you help! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:22:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Hanlin, Steve" Subject: Controlling the humidity in over wintering bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I presently am over-wintering approximately 300 colonies/double nucleus hives indoors in a 23' 3" X 19' 8" room. I decided this year to = monitor the temperature and relative humidity using a "HOBO" weather station (a = system which uses a computer program to collect the data) for two weeks to see = if I was having any fluctuation of temperature or humidity. What I found = was that the temperature is staying very tight between 41 to 43=BA F., but = the humidity was everywhere from 17% to 49%. From what I have read on = beeline or other publications, the recommended humidity is around 60%. My = question is first is this the standard for an inside wintering facility or is a = lower humidity that critical to the bees? Next if I do need to have the room generally around 60% RH, how do I get the humidity up and get it to = stay at that level? My initial thought is to use a humidifier in the room, but don't know if I should place it on the floor, on top of a shelf or in = the middle of the room on top of hives. Any suggestions on if a humidifier = is a good place to start and if so how to get the best of it or what other methods are used? I would appreciate any suggestions from those that = over winter indoors in Canada or the U. S. Thank you =20 Steve J. Hanlin Entomologist-Control Pollination North Central Regional Plant Introduction Station Ames, IA =20 =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:45:02 -0800 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)" Subject: National insect? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Russ and other BEE-Lers, The honey bee is an amazing insect and one that has great economic value.= However, in a nation that has an immensely rich and diverse insect= community, it seems a terrible shame to have a non-native species as the= national insect. If a single species is to be chosen as a representative= of the USA, should it really have "European" in its name? Or= "Africanized"? There are may spectacular native bees that would be fine= national insects, although few have the cosmopolitan spread of the honey= bee. A number of years ago there was an attempt to make the monarch butterfly= the national insect. That would also be a good candidate. Best wishes, Matthew ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Conservation Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Boulevard, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at www.xerces.org ______________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:44:26 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: National Insect MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Norm is right about the honey bee not being native to this land, but however it has been breed here for so long we have came up with many of our own. In this state (West Virginia) we have our own breed. And also we are not native to this country either. My ancestry comes from Scotland, England and Germany. But I'm American. Let's make the honey bee this nation the national insect. Who will work with me? Russ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:50:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Controlling the humidity in over wintering bees In-Reply-To: <3DDDFCE663AD3543B01A45CC10E734775288A2@ncrpis-farm.agron.i astate.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve says: I decided this year to monitor the temperature and relative humidity using a "HOBO" ...the temperature... between 41 to 43ş F... the humidity... 17% to 49%. Before you do anything else, place the HOBO inside a hive in middle of the stack. Its not the room humidity that's critical, its what's going on inside the brood nest. In other words, if the RH is high inside the hives, you don't want to increase RH in the building. If its really low, you may. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:54:15 -0800 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)" Subject: Re: National insect? Comments: To: Deanapiary@wmconnect.com In-Reply-To: <39.443b3c23.2d678bc2@wmconnect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/20/2004 at 11:11 AM Deanapiary@wmconnect.com wrote: But do we raise butterflies? Russ, There is an active butterfly breeding industry -- even leeches are reared= commercially for medical use. But, to be honest, I'm not sure that whether= or not an insect is reared is an issue when trying to chose a national= insect. Best wishes, Matthew ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Conservation Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Boulevard, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at www.xerces.org ______________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:05:57 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers >> I never MENTIONED... > sometimes, i think you are oversimplifying. > when people start saying that cold does not > kill bees, that is when I say, "Whoa".... A simple question on the face of it: Ventilate? Wrap? Insulate? But like any of the hundreds of thousands of possible points of discussion about beekeeping, there are different views, and (most of the) different views have (at least some) hard facts behind them. But can we EVER answer ANY question with a simple "yes" or "no", or are we all too "informed" to be able to do that? But, what can we say (and agree upon) about "cold"? Ventilation? Well, the best I could do would be to say that within the natural range of honeybees, where bees might overwinter without human intervention, and it would be possible for a swarm to survive on its own for more than a year, George Imire's position is strictly correct. Ooops, sorry... "STRICTLY CORRECT". :) But sure, there are exceptions. Many of these exceptions exist because some people choose to keep bees in locations where they simply would not survive even a year without a beekeeper and a certain amount of technology. For example, the concept of "overwintering" has only existed on a large-scale basis in the Canadian plains since 1987 or so, and convincing the larger Canadian beekeepers in places like Alberta and Manitoba to attempt to do so required extensive research, Canadian government subsidies for beekeepers (both a $10 per colony payment, and subsidized "winter feed" prices). I think it would be an entertaining exercise for the collective consensus of this group (as gleaned from the archives) to be evaluated and counted (based on the merits of the points offered in support of each position) as "votes" on specific issues, and compared to the questions and answers from (for example) the EAS and the NC "master beekeeper" tests, or any such test offered by any group anywhere. Assuming that it were even possible to "count the votes", how would "we" do? I think that we would end up looking like the 10-year old who, being taught Newtonian physics, insisted that the teacher was wrong because she was ignoring the effect of relativity, which he had read about in an X-Men comic book. (A true story. I know the teacher.) But does this sort of tendency for exceptions to be given "equal time" or even "more airtime" than general rules of thumb make it impossible to conduct any adult conversation about anything of importance to beekeeping in this forum? Not among ourselves, certainly, but we 700-some people are a negligible fraction of the total beekeeper population. The bulk of them would dismiss many of our longer discussion threads as a very long and tedious game of "Trivial Pursuit", played with expensive computer equipment. Since it is nearly impossible to speak about bees without speaking about climate and weather, is beekeeping a mostly weather-driven activity? I'm surprised how many of my spring beekeeping tasks can be scheduled with nothing more than a simple running total of "Growing Degrees Days to date", and how my fall activities are completely dominated by the ticking of the countdown to the approaching "first frost". For example, I started making pollen patties a few weeks ago, and sure enough, we had our highly-predictable "warm spell" with temps in the 50s (F) this week, so I tossed them in yesterday and this morning. As expected, most hives had enough brood area to say that they are "rebooting for spring". In a week or so, we should see the first dandelion and maple pollen coming in on the legs of foragers. And I had a dead-out. Lot's o bees, lots "head in a cell". They clearly starved. My fault, no excuses. They clearly somehow ate through their stores more quickly than the 178 other hives. I should be happy about a one-half of one percent "winter loss rate", but I still feel guilty and sick to my stomach about losing even a single colony, when I should be dancing with joy. jim (A member of the "Prairie Home Battalion") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:48:02 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: National Insect >> Let's make the honey bee... the national insect. > I don't think that it will be adopted at the national > insect since it was brought to the east coast about > 1622 from England. In 1990, the US Congress did consider the Monarch butterfly as the "national insect", but the effort failed. Wow, talk about "Weapons of Misperception", eh? Monarchs migrate to Mexico every winter, making their "native nationality" an issue that can only be decided by the US Department of Homeland Security's Immigration Branch. Offhand, I'd say that if Monarchs were seriously considered, honeybees are not "out of the question". But I'd at least wait on this until after the expected November regime change. The current gang in possession of the White House and Congress have more pressing issues to address at the moment. Dave Barry (Miami Herald) made the effort to name a "National Insect" a laughingstock back in the 1990s, and beekeeping should try to avoid becoming fodder for comedy routines. If you ever have a chance to visit Michoacan (a province in Mexico) during the right few weeks in winter, do so. The Monarchs simply cannot be counted, and cover every branch of many trees in their overwintering groves. Beyond description, so I won't even try. jim (Who has a Poetic license to kill) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:48:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: National insect? Comments: To: mdshepherd@XERCES.ORG In-Reply-To: <200402200745020966.001B71EC@spineless.xerces.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: "Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)" > The honey bee is an amazing insect and one that has great economic value. > However, in a nation that has an immensely rich and diverse insect > community, it seems a terrible shame to have a non-native species as the > national insect. If a single species is to be chosen as a representative > of the USA, should it really have "European" in its name? Are your people native, Matthew? Of course the answer is no. There are no native human populations of North America. Some came earlier; some came later. Why should we discriminate? Since we are all immigrants, I think the insistance that our national insect be "native," is a case of "straining at a gnat." That's not to say, I don't appreciate the role of native pollinators. But the honeybee is the workhorse of agricultural pollination. If it HAS to be a native, I would nominate the carpenter bee, which does an amazing amount of pollination. The monarch is pretty, and it's a pollinator, but only a minor one, compared to either Apis or the unappreciated Xylocopa. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:16:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Fw: Raising queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I was very busy during a period of the drone/queen raising debate for me and could not answer on one point made. One of the posters talked about about the sperm is ALWAYS mixed in the queens spermatheca.. Research done in the 1950's in the U.S. found mixing did not always happen and in fact many times sperm remained packed in layers. If you run in certain apiaries many different strains of bees the fact becomes quite evident. especially is you run both dark & light colored bees. I have observed colonies which been gentle become aggressive over a period of weeks. Colonies using large amounts of propolis suddenly stop doing so. A queen producing light colored workers start producing dark or mixed color workers. It is my opinion and of many others that as the sperm of one drone is used up the sperm of the next is used and is responsible for what we are seeing . The old books say the drone sperm is always in layers but I do believe some mixing takes place but not sure or sure even researchers could give a percent of the time. The fact makes judging of future breeder queens from large numbers of production colonies difficult. Breeder queens selected in the late summer may be producing a completely different egg to graft with the next spring (in other words a different drone father). If one finds an unusual queen the best time to use her as a breeder is right away *in my opinion*. Comments? Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:10:44 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Chemical spraying (was Almond bloom in California) > The USDA boll weevil eradication program in Texas & Missouri is > one of the biggest offenders. Even when *iron clad proof* exists > that their crop dusters killed hives they fight reimbursements for > dead hives. How long are beekeepers going to continue to be utter fools in their business dealings? This may not be the sole source of all the problems in every case, but it sure as heck isn't helping any. The "offender" here is the GROWER. The guy you can take to small claims court, or general district court. All the pointing at the federal government is simple misdirection. If I cut deals like the ones that appear to being cut for pollination and "hive placement for a crop" in Missouri/Texas, I'd not only be unable to find a single lawyer to churn out my contracts, I'd be unable to afford a lawyer, as I would be living in a cardboard box. If the beekeeper chooses to not demand a "pesticide kill clause" in his contract, then he clearly is tolerating an unacceptable situation. If beekeepers adopted a "standard form contract", rather like the standardized real estate and rental agreements used in all US states, there would be less opportunity for growers to play one beekeeper against another, as they clearly are doing. Agreement terms aside, I don't see how a grower's overt and willing participation in an effort that yields tangible economic benefit to his operation can be viewed as anything but classic "negligence" if pesticide kills result. If the contract said nothing about pesticide kills, or even if there was NO contract, and the grower did the spraying himself, one would have a simple civil action, enforceable by local courts. Since the USDA contracts out the spraying as part of a program in which growers actively participate, the USDA is really nothing more than another "hired hand" for the grower, clearly under the control of the grower. If the grower tries to claim that he has "no control", this does not relieve him of liability, as he owns the land, grows the crop, knows of the spray program, and knowingly contracted for bees to be placed upon his land (or allowed bees to be placed upon his land). The grower cannot deny knowledge of the spray program, so his lack of due diligence to exert control over the spraying schedule for his land is significant and willful negligence and the "direct and proximate" cause of the bee kill. Classic strict liability. If I rent you a store, and I fail to maintain the wiring, and the store burns down, I am liable, and no amount of pointing at the electrical contractor's error or the building inspector's failure to notice the bad wiring will protect me from a judgment for the full value of your stock, loss of business, etc. (If I want to sue the electrical contractor, that is yet another lawsuit.) Bees are property. They have value. They generate income. It is a business. Treat it like one. Even though the USDA may be contracting out the specific spray flights, the participation of the grower in the program (and the fact that the grower permits his land to be sprayed at all) makes the grower the better target. Trying to sue the federal government is simply a waste of time. "Negotiating" with the government is a waste of time. Begging is futile. Legislation is time-consuming, and prone to being watered down by lobbyists. The only practical approach is to use the courts. (Is it an wonder why "tort reform" is such a big deal to big business?) The grower might claim that he is not liable for the actions of the crop duster or the USDA program that hired the crop duster, but this would be as silly as saying that, as a bar owner, I would not be liable for the actions of an off-duty policeman that I hired to be a "bouncer". Sure, the cop is not subject to civil suit when he is "on duty" as he is an agent of the government, but this protection is not afforded him when he is working for me as a hired hand for my business. While a federal court might entertain a motion by a grower to "enjoin" the USDA to the suit, a suit in a local court would not be thrown out simply because the federal government was CLAIMED to somehow be involved in the spraying of the grower's fields. The local court would view this as a simple tort. Negligence, contributory negligence, and so on. If the growers don't want to bother to get pushy with their local USDA reps on this issue, then refuse to place hives one anyone's land who does not agree to a "pesticide kill" clause. In short, if the grower has no concern for your bees, then don't put your bees on his land, and tell the other members of your co-op, association, whatever about his lack of concern. Any beekeeper who continues, year after year, to willingly expose their bees to such risks has no one to blame but himself. jim (Who works hard to appear to be about as frightening as the Snuggle fabric softener bear in all business dealings) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:29:34 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy, Yes, I got your VERY NICE and explanatory letter; and THANKS! It s CONSTANT concern to me that people condemn the Imirie Shim saying that bees build burr comb on top of the frames in the 3/4" hollow space of the shim. OF COURSE THE BEES WILL DO THAT, if there is not ENOUGH drawn comb super space available! Gosh, the bees are trying hard to tell the beekeeper that they need MORE super space to deposit their nectar, or they might swarm! If my bees normally average 3 full supers of honey during our April and May nectar flow, I always install 5 supers of drawn comb (NOT FOUNDATION) on April 15th. Hence, the bees have lots of room to store all that THIN WATERY nectar (maybe 20 pounds/day) until they have time to evaporate the water and ripen it into honey. Hence, I rarely have a swarm during a nectar flow. What I am saying is you should always have more supers of drawn comb (again, NEVER foundation) on your hive than you anticipate being filled with honey. My super configuration is: starting upward from the queen excluder (I strongly believe in queen excluders, and the are NOT honey excluders as some people say) there are 2 supers of DRAWN COMB, 1st Imirie Shim, 2 more supers of DRAWN COMB, 2nd Imirie Shim, the 5th super of DRAWN COMB, and topped with a Goble style inner cover which provides another UPPER ENTRANCE. By the way, DRAWN COMB is every beekeeper's MOST VALUABLE POSSESSION and one should never allow it to be destroyed by wax moths Hence during a nectar flow, the congestion in the brood chamber is greatly reduced because the forager bees are using the 3 entrances into the supers (2 entrances in the 2 Imirie Shims plus the entrance in the Goble Inner Cover). The standard bottom board entrance is primarily being used by young bees taking orientation flights and the drones, of course. As always, I hope I have helped. George Imirie, Retired Scientist Certified EAS Master Beekeeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:36:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Chemical spraying (was Almond bloom in California) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: “Perhaps a higher up the USDA food chain might read the above and look into the situation.“ And back on the 13th of August Dave Green posted: "Also, in a year of concerns for West Nile, we see one of the most important mosquito predators -dragonflies, wiped out of an area in a few minutes: http://gardenbees.com/cotton%20spray/cottonspray.htm Perhaps, both the ABF and the AHPA could get together on this one very serious aspect of beekeeping and lobby the folks in Washington: Both the USDA and those somewhat politically motivated lawmakers. It is a crying shame when the insect used to pollinate the flowers that creates the crop is killed by the grower, trying- in his mind- to protect the crop; sort of like killing the messenger. Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:41:53 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Fw: Raising queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > One of the posters talked about about the sperm is ALWAYS mixed in the > queens spermatheca.. I remember reading a paper in the 1980's that showed that sperm was mixed in the spermatheca. Haven't found it since. The researcher had used cordovan genes to show that the offspring was basically even. > I have observed colonies which been gentle become aggressive over a period > of weeks. Colonies using large amounts of propolis suddenly stop doing so. A > queen producing light colored workers start producing dark or mixed color > workers. As for the aggressive bit, we get changes in mood depending on what the bees are working. We can have bees on teatree or spotted gum and they are very toey but the day after you shift them to another source, they are gentle as lambs. I can imagine the propolis bit depending on source and climatic conditions. As for the changing in the colour of the bees? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:09:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Seiler Apiaries Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Wote the following: > My super configuration is: starting upward from the queen excluder (I strongly > believe in queen excluders, and the are NOT honey excluders as some people > say) > there are 2 supers of DRAWN COMB, 1st Imirie Shim, 2 more supers of DRAWN > COMB, > 2nd Imirie Shim, the 5th super of DRAWN COMB, and topped with a Goble style > inner cover which provides another UPPER ENTRANCE. > George, what suggestions do you have for areas with low nectar flow, such as my location in the Pacific Northwest. Generally honey production in my area is about two medium supers. And, what is your method for getting comb drawn out when the need arises for more drawn comb? Best Regards Frank Seiler Seiler Apiaries www.seilerbees.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:18:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Chemical spraying (was Almond bloom in California) Jim mentioned: "Even though the USDA may be contracting out the specific spray flights,the participation of the grower in the program (and the fact that the grower permits his land to be sprayed at all) makes the grower the better target." True the grower should be the better target, but! But!! BUT!!!! An Opinion: (1) The USDA should include provisions in their contract that directly refers to existing law and US Government Regulations, that which the FDA has control of and, is written on the label of any pesticide under the heading of "Environmental Hazards" and "Directions for Use" - if they do not already do so. (2) I believe that in "most" if not all states the misapplication of a pesticide which injures plants, livestock, property, or humans is a crime and is punishable at the state level and the federal level. Here the applicator is the responsible party. (3) Perhaps the EPA should get involved as a lot more living creatures than honeybees are being killed:http://gardenbees.com/cotton% 20spray/cottonspray.htm (4) IMO perhaps growers could only plant cotton that is "beetle free". (5) Our bees need a little more protection than a civil suit; by the time a beekeeper gets into court the money spent by the beekeeper in a civil suit can put him under. Its time to take some of the bad guys to jail! Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:43:47 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: National Insect MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to ask - why do you need a 'National Insect'? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:37:57 -0800 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)" Subject: Re: National insect? Comments: To: Dave In-Reply-To: <40360215.13664.B7017C@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave, I think a national insect should be representative of the rich diversity of the US insect fauna. I'm not convinced (obviously!) that the honey bee does that. I mentioned the monarch butterfly because that was the only other insect I know has been suggested before. I also don't think it should necessarily be a pollinator. Several states have lady beetles as state insects, many others butterflies of one type or another, there are a couple with dragonflies and even a couple with mantids. There are nearly one hundred thousand insect species in North America. Somewhere in there there will be a suitable national symbol. Best wishes, Matthew *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 2/20/2004 at 12:48 PM Dave wrote: >Since we are all immigrants, I think the insistance that our national >insect be "native," is a case of "straining at a gnat." That's not to >say, I don't appreciate the role of native pollinators. But the >honeybee is the workhorse of agricultural pollination. > >If it HAS to be a native, I would nominate the carpenter bee, which >does an amazing amount of pollination. The monarch is pretty, and >it's a pollinator, but only a minor one, compared to either Apis or the >unappreciated Xylocopa. > >Dave Green >The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ______________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd, Pollinator Conservation Program Director The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Boulevard, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the diversity of life through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website at www.xerces.org ______________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:23:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Chemical spraying (was Almond bloom in California) Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, I have read Jim's reply post a couple times and I feel I need to explain the USDA, grower & beekeeper part better. I am only a beekeeper close to the problem but not involved other than speaking with two of the USDA people overseeing the Missouri boll weevil program which asked me for my advice. Jim asks: How long are beekeepers going to continue to be utter fools in their business dealings? These beekeeper friends of mine are not by any strech of the imagination "utter fools". One comes from a long line of beekeepers and runs around 8,000 hives in the boot heel of Missouri. The other friend beekeeper works for the Missouri dept. of Ag. and was reassigned to a desk job when he became vocal about the problem . He lost all his sideline hives to cotton spraying. Jim said: The "offender" here is the GROWER. The guy you can take to small claims court, or general district court. All the pointing at the federal government is simple misdirection. Actually when you understand the boll weevil program you might think differently. The program both in Texas & Missouri was formed by the USDA to erradicate the boll weevil. The USDA said all these different spray chemicals and methods being used against the boll weevil were not working and decided to start the program like they set up in Texas (which killed many many hives of Texas beekeepers). They held meetings with cotton growers and the growers voted to set up the program. Once the growers have signed on the USDA takes control of the spray program. Hires the crop dusters, decides which sprays to use *and when*. Decides which chemicals to use. If a person on BEE-L has better information and any of what I am writting is not EXACTLY correct please post as I want the information to be correct. I am an outsider looking in and maybe my facts are not exactly correct *but* I have talked directly to those in charge about the problem in the boot heel and am trying to explain the problem as honestly as possible from a neutral position. When the subject came up on BEE-L awhile back Texas beekeepers posted. Please do again and give an update! Thanks! Jim said; If the beekeeper chooses to not demand a "pesticide kill clause" in his contract, then he clearly is tolerating an unacceptable situation. If beekeepers adopted a "standard form contract", rather like the standardized real estate and rental agreements used in all US states, there would be less opportunity for growers to play one beekeeper against another, as they clearly are doing. The above is the place I believe Jim and possibly others on the list are not understanding. Cotton does not need bees to produce cotton. Cotton produces honey. Growers do not pay beekeepers to put bees on cotton. Those locations on cotton have been bee locations for over 75 years. The Robbin's honey farm ran around 7,000 hives in the boot heel before the present owner bought the bee farm. The cotton locations went with the bee farm purchase and represent a large part of the bee farms income. When the growers handled their own spraying many were successful and bee kills were rare. Growers which did not spray fields for the weevil had fields which became breeding grounds for the boll weevil and actually were the problem in my opinion. Most growers controlled the weevil fine and WITHOUT KILLING BEES. Being direclty involved with the beekeeper they alomost always called the beekeeper and took care not to kill bees. Jim asks: Agreement terms aside, I don't see how a grower's overt and willing participation in an effort that yields tangible economic benefit to his operation can be viewed as anything but classic "negligence" if pesticide kills result. The boll weevil program has taken over the spraying and telling crop dusters when and what to spray with. The Missouri cotton growers see the treatment of Missouri beekeepers by the program as an injustice but do not know what to do about the problem. The same scenario in Texas I have been told by Texas beekeepers. If its any consulation I was told the USDA has fired one crop duster, is trying to sober another up and a third crop duster blames the whole problem on the USDA so they are quietly trying to shut him up by threatning to stop giving him spray contracts I have been told. Jim said: Since the USDA contracts out the spraying as part of a program in which growers actively participate, the USDA is really nothing more than another "hired hand" for the grower, clearly under the control of the grower. The USDA is of the position that they can handle the boll weevil situation better than the growers. Reduced prices for chemicals are a lure to sign onto the program. I believe all cotton growers have to agree to the program before the program can be started but I could be wrong but I don't think so. In my opinion the USDA is in charge and the crop dusters are the hired hands so to speak. Jim said: liability, as he owns the land, grows the crop, knows of the spray program, and knowingly contracted for bees to be placed upon his land (or allowed bees to be placed upon his land). Growers & beekeepers have got along together since cotton was planted in the delta of the boot heel. The problem has started both in Texas & Missouri when the boll weevil eradication took control! The boll weevil program sees the beekeeper as a thorn in its side. The boll weevil program has outlasted the beekeeper as the beekeeper has quit for the most part sitting hives on cotton both in the bootheel and in Texas. Still the boll weevil program *to my knowledge* has not yet paid for hives in either state they killed by not following label and especially not notifing beekeepers of spraying. Why would the sprayer not notify the beekeeper. BECAUSE HE PLANNED TO SPRAY AT AN OFF LABEL TIME AND THE BEEKEEPER COULD DRIVE TO THE FIELD AND DOCUMENT THE ILLEGAL SPRAYING! jim said: Trying to sue the federal government is simply a waste of time. We both agree here! Jim said: "Negotiating" with the government is a waste of time. Most of us beekeepers consider the USDA our friend. I feel the people in the boll weevil problem are trying to keep a lid on the problem because of their own mismanagement of the situation. Jim said: Begging is futile. Begging has not been tried but reasonable attempts to settle the problem have been tried. Jim said: The only practical approach is to use the courts. Beekeeper friends of mine used the courts in Florida against huge bee kills from spraying around Miami. The trial lasted over two years in the courts and the beekeepers lost . One of the beekeepers said he lost around 50,000 in lawyers fees as his share of the case. Five beekeepers were involved. Jim said: Any beekeeper who continues, year after year, to willingly expose their bees to such risks has no one to blame but himself I agree! Issues similar to the above have came up many times on the list. My answer is to always move away from growers which do not respect honeybees when spraying. Its hard to teach old growers new tricks! Giving up the cotton honey crop of hives is hard but may be the only option beekeepers in Texas & Missouri have got! "justice is the will of the stronger". Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:09:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Chemical spraying (was Almond bloom in California) In-Reply-To: <200402202036.i1KFsKr9027806@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit . It is a crying > shame when the insect used to pollinate the flowers that creates the crop > is killed by the grower, trying- in his mind- to protect the crop; sort of > like killing the messenger. > > Chuck Norton The worst story I ever heard was from a beekeeper who took a few semiloads to pollinate seed alfalfa in Nevada.(They have a bad rep for killing bees)Anyway,one grower hired a plane to spray the blooming alfalfa and wiped out the bees.Then he turned around and sued the beekeeper for breach of contract(lack of pollination)! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:18:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: National Insect In-Reply-To: <001601c3f80b$6585c4a0$e5c187d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Surely our National Insect should be the mosquito-to reflect on the governments tendency to suck the blood out of everyone by way of too much taxation. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:30:47 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Chemical spraying (was Almond bloom in California) Comments: To: Bob Harrison In-Reply-To: <000001c3f819$ff4ccd00$39bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> > These beekeeper friends of mine are not by any > strech of the imagination "utter fools". Then explain why they keep repeating the same mistakes year after year, somehow expecting different results? > Actually when you understand the boll weevil program > you might think differently. You presume that I "misunderstand". I don't. The landowner/ grower has strict liability, and is a willing participant in a program that sprays. Sue just ONE grower, and watch how quickly they demand changes in the program! Pick a small incident, just to set precedent. No reason for anyone to get hurt. > They held meetings with cotton growers and the growers voted > to set up the program. And are hence "willfully negligent" by not keeping abreast of both the exact pesticides being sprayed and the schedule of spraying. I'll go my best imitation of a small claims court judge here: "Let me see if I have this straight - you expect me to believe that you let the USDA hire you-don't-know-who, to spray you-don't-know-what, at any time THEY please, on YOUR land and crop? Let's just count how MANY overt acts of negligence we have here..." > Once the growers have signed on the USDA takes control of the > spray program. Hires the crop dusters, decides which sprays to > use *and when*. Decides which chemicals to use. But the growers agree to all this, and it is for THEIR sole benefit. Sounds like the growers need to change the program, and get a little more involved in "the details". > Cotton does not need bees to produce cotton. Yes, of course. I was addressing the "general case", which applies to ANY agreement for pollination of any crop or agreement for hive placement. When money or even just honey changes hands, one has an agreement. Clearly, there is an expectation that the bees will survive the placement, regardless of the reason for the placement or the form of payment. > The cotton locations went with the bee farm purchase and > represent a large part of the bee farms income. Hence these "placement agreements" are even transferable negotiable instruments, and can be sold, leased, whatever. These seem to be VERY valid contracts. > The Missouri cotton growers see the treatment of Missouri > beekeepers by the program as an injustice but do not know > what to do about the problem. Sorry to be a hard-nosed fascist, but they could have thought about (and asked about!) how beekeepers would be treated when they were setting up the program, or demanded changes when the first kills happened. As landowners, the liability is theirs, and they have an obligation to fix their program, warn beekeepers away, or pay for the damage it does. > The boll weevil program sees the beekeeper as a thorn > in its side. > ...beekeeper[s] [have] quit for the most part sitting hives > on cotton both in the bootheel and in Texas. Then the growers should compare the "savings" in marginal higher yield from the spraying program versus the loss of income from not getting yard rent from beekeepers, and decide where their own best interests lie. Perhaps they have, and this is why nothing has been done. Note that if these same growers had pesticide run-off from these specific sprayings pollute the water of someone else, they would be liable for damages, and pointing a finger at the USDA would not help them. It is not a too big cognitive leap from "runoff liability" to "pesticide kill liability" for anyone, is it? If so, take a copy of Black's Law Dictionary, and call me in the morning. :) > Most of us beekeepers consider the USDA our friend. Well, I considered AT&T Bell Labs a fine employer, and a wonderful place to work on trying to make the world a better place. Except for the tiny part of AT&T that ran Sandia National Labs, where they designed and made, ummm nuclear bombs, chemical weapons, and other nasty stuff designed only to kill. No one ever wanted to talk about it, but we clearly had more than one way to "reach out and touch someone" at AT&T! :) The point here is that organizations can't be a "friend" to anyone. They often have different parts in direct conflict with each other. Individuals have to be very intolerant of organizations that do things like help cotton growers while hurting beekeepers, and need to be vicious, mean, and underhanded to prevail in their efforts to change the practices of the organization. > I feel the people in the boll weevil problem are trying > to keep a lid on the problem because of their own > mismanagement of the situation. And the proper way to address the issue is to (ahem) motivate the cotton growers to demand changes in the program, as it should be clear by now that the boll weevil management is ignoring beekeeper concerns. > reasonable attempts to settle the problem have been tried. Like what? Asking them nicely? To comply with federal law? If you have to ask, you might as well not bother to ask. > Beekeeper friends of mine used the courts in Florida against > huge bee kills from spraying around Miami. The trial lasted > over two years in the courts and the beekeepers lost. That's why small claims is so much more effective. Cheap, fast, and if you loose one, you can learn what you did "wrong" and try again. Not to worry, word will get around even if you loose. Sometimes the mere veiled threat of litigation is enough to have the desired effect. > One of the beekeepers said he lost around 50,000 > in lawyers fees as his share of the case. > Five beekeepers were involved. One of the problems with lawyers is that they tend to be better businessmen than beekeepers, and suggest legal approaches that are anything but cheap and quick as they have boat payments to make. What one needs to buy before hiring any lawyer is a short leash and a choker collar. > "justice is the will of the stronger". Funny you should use that quote. It's Thrasymachus. Well, OK, at least Plato CLAIMED he said that. :) The best rebuttal to that claim was given in a speech by Abraham Lincoln. (One of the perils of a classical education include having this sort of stuff bouncing around in your head for a lifetime.) Lincoln's rebuttal is HIGHLY appropriate to this discussion: "When politics asks us to deal with institutions that are beyond the moral pale, it asks us, it appears, to place politics above morality, and nobody wants to do such a thing. The ironies to which this position is subject are obvious enough to be sketched in in a few sentences. When one draws a moral line in the sand, one does so in the faith that public life should be something other than merely a contest for power. One does this as a way of rejecting the Thrasymachean claim that right is an illusion, that what we call justice is in fact nothing more than the will of the stronger. Yet once one has drawn a line in the sand one has no choice but to engage in a contest of force with those who are on the other side of that line." I think Lincoln's stand is clear. Do what must be done, even if an "innocent" grower might be offended or hurt to be made a "scapegoat". jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:29:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Pedro Rodriguez" Subject: drone cells and varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello folks. As long as 7 years ago I proposed in my writings that higher varroa counts in drone cells "was due to logistics," in that feeding bees, the ones carrying mites on them visit drone cells far more times than they do worker cells. This is a fact that can be ascertained by reviewing my writings saved on the archives, in Bee-L, Beesource.com and several international beekeeping magazines. I remain firmly convinced that my original thought is true and remains as the main reason for higher mite counts in drone cells rather than a "preference" factor. Best regards and God bless. Dr. Rodriguez __________________________________________________________________ Introducing the New Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:32:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers >>Canadian government subsidies for beekeepers (both a $10 per colony payment, and subsidized "winter feed" prices). What are you talking about? Strictly on my own here. Enjoying a warm spell and sure my bees are too>>> Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:26:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: drone cells and varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . Dr. Rodriquez said: As long as 7 years ago I proposed in my writings that higher varroa counts in drone cells "was due to logistics," in that feeding bees, the ones carrying mites on them visit drone cells far more times than they do worker cells. I remember you expressing the above hypothesis and the reason varroa is in drone cells the most could certainly be as simple as Dr. Pedro's hypothesis. Perhaps we are looking for too complicated a reason? Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:13:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Was: [BEE-L] Goble style inner covers - Now Government subsidies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whoa, l seemed to have missed something here. Can the person who originally wrote this please direct me to the person responsible for this subsidy? Peter, living in Canada and ill-informed. > >>Canadian government subsidies for beekeepers (both a $10 per colony > payment, and subsidized "winter feed" prices). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:12:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: National Insect MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I asked. I thought with more states having the honey bee than any other bug, and I thought this would be a site full of loyal beekeepers not bee havers I'd find support. Forget it. Russ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:32:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Fw: Raising queens In-Reply-To: <003c01c3f6a8$047941a0$43bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <003c01c3f6a8$047941a0$43bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >As far as an open mating area James you really need to control the drones >for ten miles in all directions for close to perfect drone control. Of course, and this is not possible with my area. My friend has a better chance, near the tip of a more southerly peninsula (the Lizard). I am bringing in as many locals as I can into the rearing project, so, in time, hopefully!!! For the moment, I am bringing mating nucs to my largest, central apiary, and hope for conditions which favour our local strains and close geographical mating as well as cool weather strains. Both tend to bias against Italian bees, which I regard as inferior in our area. We do get people bringing in Italians and Buckfasts, either on a small scale, or as commercial beekeepers, so from time to time, we see obvious crosses coming out. What I am aiming for is enough involvement in bee improvement (for varroa management) over the county, that at least, people will develop their beekeeping skills, even if we don't get a bee able to manage varroa on its own. >Maybe wintering has more to do with the beekeeper than the strain of bees? I think the List has given enough information about practices to show this. Here our bees do continue to rear brood more or less throughout the winter and this makes for some variation in management, particularly with regard to varroa breeding. The imperative to learn is very strong! I am encouraged by the low mite counts we do get in many colonies though and I am sure that the genes are there to pull out. The parallel weakening of varroa, recognised in France, may mean we converge the two strands: varroa suicide and bee improvement. I hope this makes sense. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:16:14 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Fw: Raising queens In-Reply-To: <000001c3f696$d68eb5b0$11e5fea9@your> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <000001c3f696$d68eb5b0$11e5fea9@your>, Tom Martin writes > This mention of 3rd year queens out-producing young queens is an >interesting observation. > Do you have any ideas as to why this is? I have no idea, but will consult a friend with whom I co-operate in beekeeping and teaching a course, who reports the same thing (we are not talking about a general rule, but that we have some 3rd year queens which outperform first years). He does as a rule, stimulate his colonies in the spring and even gives them a new frame of foundation in the middle of the nest, long before I would. Like most of my hives, he works to the British National hive, in single boxes, and reports at least one static apiary with 160lb averages each year plus nuclei made up from them. He can have 3 major nectar flows in at least one apiary, though the heather flow merges with the later summer flow. Generally I have young queens, first year (technically second season), and the excellent performance came from a line which always performed well and had evidently some degree of hybridisation and possibly therefore increased hybrid vigour. Though I do everything I can to maintain valuable local traits, there is variability. Neither that colony nor the majority of the others had been fed that year, as it has not been by practice to feed a production colony except in emergency in a poor spring. It had gone into the winter with around 90lb of stores, on account of the large size of frame. This is more than double the norm for our area, which has mild winters and early springs. The year of the excellent performance was particularly good, with any colony that built up rapidly in the spring getting a good spring crop. In this season, the best colonies had a head start on the others, with around and in some cases, in excess of 50lb before the end of spring in the supers, also high fro the area. I think now, that with the earlier springs we are getting, that a rapid spring build up makes all the difference to the honey crop. The colony I mentioned may have been marginally faster off the mark and with the deep frames, had that many more foraging bees in spring than its deep frame neighbours and certainly many more than its standard frame rivals in other apiaries. In other words it is not the norm, but noticeable when it happens. Nowadays, I will stimulate a selection of colonies in early spring (as soon as the temperature rises again - we seem to have returned to winter here, with non-flying temperatures of 4-6C or so, having had a period with 12C+ in the middle of the day), starting with the over-wintered old and new queen nucs. I am replacing queens annually where the mite count is higher anyway, so I replace more queens than hitherto and my average queen age will go down. I am rearing from those with the lowest mite counts and other good traits. I see no reason to replace a good performing queen that hasn't made swarming preparations, in the hope that she will eventually supersede, or at least get to 3 years before the colony sets up swarming! BTW, I have had years when virtually all my first season queens (one year old) made swarming preparations! But it may just have been the steadily earlier spring build up that stimulated this situation and a resulting laying space problem. My practice being to replace 1/3 of frames each year with foundation, allows me to put frames of foundation in the centre of the nest each week for 3-4 weeks. Usually this keeps the space fine and I have never seen a 14" sq framed hive run out of space to lay with this regime, though it may have been a close thing at times. The boxes for 14" sq frames are too large to run to a second brood chamber and the queen rarely lays over the top in a super (if I remove the queen excluder) unless I don't have a honey barrier! However, increasingly, where I have the standard size brood chamber (8 1/2" deep frames x 14" wide) I am adding a second box which gives me further options for a while. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:39:40 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: raising queens In-Reply-To: <002f01c3f68f$a23a6cc0$2ebc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <002f01c3f68f$a23a6cc0$2ebc59d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >Hope you now understand or am I misunderstanding your question? Yes thanks. As always, it pays to get the detail. I had in mind that it was the next generation drones, so I misunderstood. It was a risky post anyway, knowing how expert you are. As always when I think aloud, via this and other lists, I get a response which teaches me something good. Too quick a read, means missing an important detail which is what I did. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:18:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small cells bees & varroa (was Oxalic) Hi Bob, >Wow ! Has it been four years since you started small cell? Time really >flies! I remember when you were only talking about small cell on BEE-L! Yep, I actually have to go back to my field notes to check out the specifics. I am getting older :>) The first mites were spotted here in 1988. I didn't find them in my bees until 1992. A year later, they were destroying most of my hives. I got on the chemical treadmill. Chemical resistant mites developed here by 1996. At that time I looked for alternatives. I contacted L. Hines and the Lusbys about their methods and stock. I began using mite trays and then built screened bottom boards to count mites. I purchased lots of queens looking for some mite resistance and stopped routinely treating my hives at that time. I experimented with softer chemical like formic, essential oils, FGMO and FGMO with essential oils, and powdered sugar. I stopped all treatments in 1999. Russian bees were introduced in 2000. My hives were converted to small cell during the spring of 2001. Looking back at my notes, my untreated large cell hives would naturally drop, at most,a couple of mites per day during the early spring of their first year. By August, the most susceptable hives would be dropping a dozen mites/day. The least susceptible would drop about half that amount. During the second year, these untreated hives would drop half a dozen mites per day early in the spring. By the end of August, the most susceptable would be dropping 50 or more mites per day. The least susceptible would drop half that amount. Most of these hives would perish over the winter. Any survivors were dinks with the rare exception. My Russian bees were among the rare exceptions. They would drop very few mites initially. Survive into the third year and then perish by years end. They could carry a tremendous mite load and not show any external symptoms such as DWV, MWV, PMS, crawlers, etc. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:41:39 -0700 Reply-To: ttownsen@telusplanet.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Townsend Organization: TPLR HONEY FARMS Subject: Re: Goble style inner covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim stated; > For example, the concept of >"overwintering" has only existed on a large-scale basis in the >Canadian plains since 1987 or so, and convincing the larger >Canadian beekeepers in places like Alberta and Manitoba to attempt >to do so required extensive research, Canadian government subsidies >for beekeepers (both a $10 per colony payment, and subsidized >"winter feed" prices). > > I'm afraid a correction is needed to the above, wintering on a large scale has been done on the Canadian prairies long before 1987, there was alot of us wintering in the early 70's. There was some research done, most of it on indoor wintering, the subsidized winter feed was only because of the sudden rise in sugar prices one year. Our bees are wintering fine up here, and we have known that for a very long time. Tim Townsend Stony Plain AB :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:53:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Beekeeperc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: National Insect MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ, relax, take a breath. No one is against having the honeybee as the national insect. Just that its not native to the US and probably not would not make it. Just because a few peoples opinions are not the same as yours does not make them bee havers. Norm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:25:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: National Insect In-Reply-To: <4a.281ae35b.2d68c16b@wmconnect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-9703DB7; boundary="=======5CC177DB=======" --=======5CC177DB======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-9703DB7; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I thought with more states having the honey bee than any other >bug, In many northern rural areas, surely there are more Blackflies, or Mosquitos, than honeybees. --=======5CC177DB=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:28:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small cells bees & varroa (was Oxalic) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis and All, Thanks for the update. I would like to thank you for the list and myself for sharing your information. Dennis said: My Russian bees were among the rare exceptions. They would drop very few mites initially. Survive into the third year and then perish by years end. They could carry a tremendous mite load and not show any external symptoms such as DWV, MWV, PMS, crawlers, etc. You will have to treat hybrid Russians with a certain amount of varroa control. Many queen producers in the U.S. continue to call the bees they sell as Russians when they are really a Russian crossed with their best strain of bee. The hybrid is perhaps a better bee in productivity and in other areas but you certainly lose a certain amount of varroa tolerance with a hybrid. Most queen breeders simply have not got an open mating area they can open mate the Russians. Grafting from a II Russian queen is easy. Controlling mating when the main queen you sell is an Italian or a carniolan and your home base is flooded with those drones and your mating yards are in an area of other queen breeders make a Russian/Russian open mating rare. An experiment is being done in the south this year with all instrumental inseminated ( II) Russian/Russian , Russian/Sm. and many other combinations. Hopefully we will within a couple years determine if the Russian is what we had hoped for. We know the Russian can go farther without help in handling varroa. To properly evaluate the Russian and get past the open mating problem setting up a large population of instrumentally inseminated Russian/Russian will work. A friend of mine is working on the project with little reward but finding out what works and what doesn't. His group plans on installing around a thousand II queens to evaluate this season. Quite a feat! He should be telling the list himself but he is like many others is a "lurker". I believe we are realizing now that if you have to treat the Russian hybrids for varroa why not use your high honey producing strains you used to use from your regular queen breeder? I also wish queen producers would offer honest advertising. We are close to a bee which never needs treatment for varroa but unlike a few queen breeders claim now we are simply not there yet. A queen breeder in Florida claims to sell Russian production queens when he is within 30 miles of one of the largest beekeepers in the world and hives of other beekeepers are close by. Hives travel the main road without nets at times within sight of his mating yards I have been told. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:58:06 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Controlling the humidity in over wintering bees Steve said >> I decided this year to monitor the temperature and relative >> humidity... Jerry said: > Before you do anything else, place the HOBO inside a hive in middle > of the stack. Its not the room humidity that's critical, its what's > going on inside the brood nest. In other words, if the RH is high > inside the hives, you don't want to increase RH in the building. > If its really low, you may. Isn't the key question "What's the delta between the two readings?" Doesn't one need to measure in the clusters (not just anywhere in the hives!) AND in the building to get a real picture of what is happening? Correct me if I'm forgetting something here, but we've got bee clusters that may be desiccating on the outer shell, eating up stores like no tomorrow, and hyperventilating to try and keep the RH where they want it. Bees try to control humidity, and we don't want to "stress" them by challenging them with too high or too low a humidity. If the difference between the hives and the building is high, this would mean that the bees are forced to "work to control" their environment, which means that they must burn "fuel" to do so. Now, I have no idea what is considered "optimal RH" in either a winter cluster or a brood-rearing environment, but I'd suspect that if hive ventilation was adequate, and air circulation within the building was adequate, we would want to run the humidity in the building slightly below what is considered "optimal" to end up with "optimal" conditions in the clusters. The bees' normal metabolic processes must raise the humidity slightly within the cluster, so one would not want to run the building environment at the setting that would be "optimal" for the bees. One would want to run the building lower. Same thing for temperature. If you want the bees to stay clustered, the temperature of the building may have to be kept slightly lower than one might think, as the building has thermal mass, and may tend to "collect" heat during the day and radiate it at night. As a disclaimer, I do not keep bees indoors. I have dealt with unruly greenhouses, bakeries, and auditoriums, all which create unique and sometimes extreme environments, and need to be controlled. Living things, whether bees, plants, or people, are generators of heat and moisture via "respiration" machinery, whether beehives or racks of servers, have the ability to produce and vent certain minimum and maximum amounts of heat and moisture. (If you don't think that machines can generate moisture, you have yet to see a steam-injection oven in a bakery.) Checking the humidifier stats here at Farmageddon, it used about 50 gallons of water in the last 24 hours to keep its own internal sensor at 40% RH, and thereby keep a 2800 sq foot house at somewhere around 30%. It takes a LOT of water to keep the humidity up when the heating system (baseboard hot water radiators) is "burning" water out of the air. If we had thrown a party this weekend, it would have used less water. jim (Who has a too-low Relative Humility) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:20:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Seiler Apiaries Subject: Re: Small cells bees & varroa (was Oxalic) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis Murrell wrote: > Russian bees were introduced in 2000. > > My hives were converted to small cell during the spring of 2001. > I am planning to put hives on small cell this season. I have Carniolans. A friend of mine is working with Russian Hybrids and loves them, although they are different to work with. My question is (if you or someone has tried) which race makes a better candidate for small cell foundation, and what the differences in technique are. Thanks Frank Seiler www.seilerbees.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 09:20:30 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: drone cells and varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As long as 7 years ago I proposed in my writings that higher varroa > counts in drone cells "was due to logistics," in that feeding bees, the ones > carrying mites on them visit drone cells far more times than they do worker > cells. We are lucky not have varroa mites but I have been studying them for years in the event that they do arrive. The above statement seems to suggest that the mite will enter any point of the larval development i.e. say day 3. I have been lead to believe that the varroa mite entered the cell just before it was capped. The mite going down and burying itself in the brood food at the bottom of the cell. If the latter is the case, then it does not matter how many times the larvae is feed, be it worker or drone. The point of entry is at the last stage. So the feeding just prior to capping is when the mites can go from the feeder to the cell. Another point is does the mite have to come from a feeder to enter the cell? Cannot it enter under its own power as it is crawling around the comb? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::