From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:44:31 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF20348FD1 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDJj012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0403A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Status: RO Content-Length: 160090 Lines: 3491 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 01:59:38 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: HFCS > any studies that show HFCS is harmful to > bees, and can cause sickness or death? You should pose this question to Bill Bernacchi of B&B Honey Farm. You can e-mail him at bbhoney@acegroup.cc He is one of the larger US dealers in HFCS, and knows all the technical specs by heart. He is sure to have a drawer-full of information. All I know is that there is lots of "off-spec" stuff out there for all sorts of obscure uses, and that buying "scrap sugar" or "cheap feed" are possibly the most costly mistakes a beekeeper could ever make. When in doubt, considering buying from Bill, knowing that he has not only been consistently true to his word, but also has looked me in the eye multiple times, and has yet to blink. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: HFCS winter feed In-Reply-To: <200402291827.i1TIK7NF026421@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian wrote: >>>The main problem is with winter > > feed in colder climates. You will get losses because of the feed. (There > are some issues with 55% vrs 42% as winter feed - also in the archives.) > > > Well Bill, I dont know if I believe it to be much of a problem. Acid (vrs enzyme) produced HFCS is a problem. The 55% 42% issue with enzyme produced HFCS is not as certain. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 09:04:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: # of drones in hive/further In-Reply-To: <000701c3fea8$39b17d80$5864fea9@orac> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dave provided a table for Drones and Workers based on a Fibonacci sequence. However, all rabbits have a father and a mother. So, if a drone hasn't a father, but has a grandfather, doesn't this sort of mess up the sequence? Hmmm, gets interesting when one thinks about great-grandparents, great-great, etc. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:11:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: BEE BEHAVIOUR ANALYSIS OF BEE BEHAVIOUR MAY MAKE BETTER ROBOTS Scientists at the Georgia Institute of Technology in the USA have developed a new computer vision system which affords an automated analysis of animal movement - honey bee activities in particular. The system is expected to accelerate animal behaviour research which will have implications for the biologically inspired design of robots. A scientist on the project explained that they believe that the language of behaviour is common between animals and robots, so potentially they could for instance videotape like ants for a long period, learn their 'programme' and run it on a robot. He further explained that as social insects such as bees and ants represent the existence of successful, large scale, robust behaviour forged from the interaction of many simple individuals, this can offer ideas on how to organise a cooperating colony of robots capable of complex operations. The new system automates what once was a time consuming and tedious task and the system can be used to analyse data on the sequential movements that encode information. A prime example of this is the honey bee dance that encodes information on food source. On this particular analysis, the team are working with Thomas Seeley* of Cornell University. The analysis system has several components. Firstly, researchers shoot 15 minutes of video footage of bees (some of which are marked. This footage is taken in an observation hive. Then the computer software converts the bees movements into x and y components to determine location information for each bee in each frame. Some segments of this data are hand labelled and used as motion examples for the automated analysis system. Challenges lie ahead though, especially the fact that researchers will have to work out differences between the motor and sensory capabilities of robots and insects. *Professor Thomas Seeley is professor of Biology at Cornell University and is the author of Honeybee Ecology, and Wisdom of the Hive. Both well worth reading. Ed. from Apis UK -- Used by permission :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:04:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: HFCS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, Jim said: All I know is that there is lots of "off-spec" stuff out there for all sorts of obscure uses, True! You always need to know what you are getting in the way of scrap or salvage. If bagged you need to know the amount of starch in the product. A friend is trying now to find the amount of starch in 300# of laboratory sugar. The manuafturer label on the side of the drum gives contact information. Jim said: and that buying "scrap sugar" or "cheap feed" are possibly the most costly mistakes a beekeeper could ever make. The knowledgeable beekeeper can save big bucks on scrape as long as he can indintify the product. My friends and I would never feed a scrape product we did not know the source of and specs. 42% & 55% fructose as used in making soda pop (Coca Cola & Pepsi Cola) is the most common bee feed. The studies I have read show bees winter better on fructose than on many types of fall honey. Although Chris & Robin point to using food color to prove a small amount has found its way into honey in the U.K. . This is not necessarily the case in the U.S. and Canada in the high honey production areas as flows are intense and bees simply do not have time to move honey up. Those which winter in Canada pull supers as fast as filled and pull the rest as soon as flows end so they can began they fall feeding. Less than 10% fructose is hard to detect which is way unscrupulous packers have got away with adding fructose for years. Several packers were busted a few years back by the FDA when a disgruntled former employee blew the whistle on his former employer for routinely dumping fructose in honey to increase profit . The trials were covered in the bee magazines and also the "Speedy Bee" with Troy Fore attending the trials and reporting. Without the employees singing a song the packers would have blamed the beekeepers he bought honey from. Fructose getting into honey is not considered a health problem by the FDA.If you drink a couple soda pops (not diet) a week you will consume more fructose than you ever would in your eating of honey (the U.S. annual consumption of honey per person is slightly over one pound). Granted pure honey DOES NOT contain 42% & 55% fructose. Granted those guilty of adding fructose to improve profits should be prosecuted and honey coming from beekeepers with a certain percent of fructose level should be rejected by the packer. When bees are starving (which happens on a regular basis with commercial beekeepers ) you feed the bees or they die. Most common times are late fall and early spring in our area of the Midwest. Honey supers will not go on here for another 9 weeks. The gallon I fed each hive of mine last week is not going to be around 9 weeks from now! Those commercial beekeepers which feed fumidil B if going by directions need to feed the fumidil B with 2 gallons of syrup. If you think the cost of the antibiotic (fumidil B) alone is high figure the cost of feeding 2 gallons of syrup, also to a hive which may not need feeding and the labor plus gas for two trips to the bee yards! Report from Almond pollination in California received Sunday: Rain almost every day and the bees have only had one good flight day. The report came from a beekeeper with around 10,000 hives (his and other beekeepers) in California pollinating Almonds. If the situation does not improve in the next couple weeks I am afraid a poor Almond set could happen (not beekeeper fault) and the hives could be a real problem to remove from the groves because of mud and slick dykes. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:51:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Scott L. Wiegel" Subject: Re: HFCS In-Reply-To: <001701c3fe2b$02e02a40$2dec480c@computer1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am currently considering using HFCS55 as a substitute for sucrose (sugar syrup using C&H Table sugar) and have been following this conversation (and related conversations) for a long time now. I find the data and resultant conclusions to be confusing. The previous poster points out two studies that seem to support that sugar syrup feed is better for the bees. But neither of the studies actually states this. > > Different Processing methods are used to produce HFCS. And yes, some are > deadly. Good overview is available at > http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsaf/elibrary/archive/hort/bee/carbo.htm It seems that everyone agrees that there is a right way and a wrong way to produce bee food from corn starch. Since there is universal agreement on this point - I will leave it alone. But the conclusion of this study is that both HFCS55 and Sucrose are usable by the bees and not apparently harmful. In addition, this study points out many advantages in cost (time, labor, and feed) for HFCS55 over sucrose. I ask, if it is easier and cheaper for the beekeeper - why not use HFCS55? The only answer is that it is harmful to the bees (and this is your primary consideration in choice of feed). > > Studies show that sucrose syrup produces highest survival rates of bees on > supplemental feed. > http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/apidologie1978.htm Actually, this seems to be misrepresenting the data presented in the report. The summary states: "Honey or high fructose corn syrup fed to worker bees failed to show any advantage over sucrose syrup. Grape syrup caused dysentery and reduced survival. Caged bees survived longest on sucrose syrup." So, apparently this study showed no advantage to the bees when fed HFCS55. So the question is - is there anything harmful to this practice? Someone asserts that the highest survival rates of bees was due to sucrose - and the report does state that - but it was a comparison of sucrose and grape syrup. The report states: "The differences between honey, sucrose, and high fructose corn syrup were not statistically significant for any of these measurements" This means that given the health of honey bees as your primary consideration - there is no statistical difference between HFCS55, Honey, and sucrose. So, again I ask, If there is no difference in the health of the honey bee colony; and it is easier and cheaper for the beekeeper - why shouldn't we be feeding HFCS55 as the preferred source of winter feed? This seems to be a straightforward decision supported by science and various research efforts. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:56:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: HFCS In-Reply-To: <000501c3ffad$7f5926c0$3f02a8c0@WIEGELLT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5A943F7C; boundary="=======4A60B62=======" --=======4A60B62======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5A943F7C; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I am currently considering using HFCS55 as a substitute for sucrose >(sugar syrup using C&H Table sugar) >So, again I ask, If there is no difference in the health of the honey >bee colony; and it is easier and cheaper for the beekeeper - why >shouldn't we be feeding HFCS55 as the preferred source of winter feed? I think it comes down to availability. Sucrose is easy to find, mix, and handle...if you only need enough for a few colonies. HFCS55 is hard to find is some locations, heavy, can be messy, and you might have to buy far more than you need. If you are set up to handle it, HFCS is already mixed, and costs less than 20 cents a pound...mixed. Mike --=======4A60B62=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:25:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Sugar syrup vrs corn syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott said "So, again I ask, If there is no difference in the health of the honey bee colony; and it is easier and cheaper for the beekeeper - why shouldn't we be feeding HFCS 55 as the preferred source of winter feed?" Unfortunately, I have arrived at the life stage where I have lost the sources for matters I 'learned' long ago. Such matters include 'facts' that HFCS 55 is far superior as a honey bee feed than honey, and that HFCS 55 and sugar syrup are about nutritionally equal. Honey is deficient, in comparison, because it contains natural indigestibles (termed 'ash') which can lead to diarrhea or worse because of the long periods when bees may not be able to take a cleansing flight. HOWEVER, world economies and politics enter into the equations when considering the relative costs. Here in the US we have the world's most advanced methods of producing HFCS, and the world's least expensive raw material (corn). Given huge demand as a food ingredient from products as diverse as ice cream, animal feed, ketchup, cereal, soft drinks, beer, canned tomatoes, etc. the prices of HFCS are the lowest in the world. In a 'perfect' world, low, low prices on HFCS would have long ago driven the cane and beet sugar producers out of the US market. However, they are concentrated in politically strong states such as Florida, Louisiana, Hawaii, etc. so we do what is normal...we make Americans pay far above world market prices for sugar. So in the US it is just about unheard of for commercial beekeepers to feed sugar syrup. Canada, on the other hand, has no cane sugar producers to protect and few beet sugar producers. Therefore, in Canada sugar sells for just about the same price per pound as HFCS...on the basis of equivalent solids in the liquid. Many Canadian beekeepers, therefore, can indulge their whims and feed sugar syrup rather than corn syrup. Further, in the more 'perfect' Canadian market, there are often imperfections in the marketplace and from time to time either HFCS or sugar syrup will be priced lower for a few days/weeks. Then the Canadians will switch. In fact, the jumbo honey coops in Canada play an active role in keeping the markets 'perfected' as that is of great help to their producers...commercial beekeepers. BTW, HFCS 45 is nothing but a type that has fewer solids than HFCS 55. Therefore it is always less expensive. However, the bees need to spend more energy to convert HFCS 45 to a usable form than the energy needed for HFCS 55, so on an equivilent energy basis, HFCS 55 usually (always?) works out to be a less expensive feed. The biggest problem with using HFCS 55 is that it most often in not available in size containers that hobbyists can use. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:52:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: HFCS >>So, again I ask, If there is no difference in the health of the honey bee colony; and it is easier and cheaper for the beekeeper - why shouldn't we be feeding HFCS55 as the preferred source of winter feed? This seems to be a straightforward decision supported by science and various research efforts. Exactly Scott, There is absoulutely no scientific research that suggest that HFCS, 55% sold by retailers, affects the health of the honeybee colony. It seems that whenever this statement is made, the aurguement is made back that the acid produced syruip is, but we are not talking about that. Two different issues!! Either we are misunderstanding eachother or there is another adgenda at issue. I have argued with people about feeding HFCS to hives, who make the same arguements back, and they are beekeepers who are generally opposed to feeding at all. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:09:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: HFCS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott asks: So, again I ask, If there is no difference in the health of the honey bee colony; and it is easier and cheaper for the beekeeper - why shouldn't we be feeding HFCS55 as the preferred source of winter feed? I agree with Scott and read all the data posted and came to the same conclusion about those studies posted! Sorry for the misspelled words and grammar in my last HFCS post. I guess I will have to slow down to 120 words a minute like Jim to avoid mistakes (he he). Using spell check and rereading before sending would have helped Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:26:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Maurice Subject: Fw: [BEE-L] Spring is on the way Comments: To: HarrisonRW@AOL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, At this Time we have in the East of Belgium some -5C at Night Greetings from Flanders Fields Maurice ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:18 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Spring is on the way > Connecticut Shoreline Report > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:57:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: HFCS In-Reply-To: <000501c3ffad$7f5926c0$3f02a8c0@WIEGELLT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott L. Wiegel wrote: > "The differences between honey, sucrose, and high fructose corn syrup > were not statistically significant for any of these measurements" > > This means that given the health of honey bees as your primary > consideration - there is no statistical difference between HFCS55, > Honey, and sucrose. Lots of threads on this in the archives. A British study showed that sucrose was best, HFCS next, and honey last. But boil the sugar and HFCS moved up to first. The difference between sucrose and HFCS (55%) is so little that most beekeepers will not see a difference with any difference increasing with the severity of the winter. But even then, there are so many other variables that, in the real world, you would never notice the difference. Honey is a different issue since when we speak of HFCS (55) or sucrose we are at least in the ballpark of talking about the same thing (you can get into isomers and make it interesting). Honey, however, can be very different depending on the floral source and level of particulates. So a "light" clover honey will be an excellent overwintering honey while a heavy, quick granulating goldenrod/aster honey will be a poor winter feed. But all this is in relation to northern winters that are long and cold. Move further south, and just about anything will get you through the winter. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine (where the winters are long and cold) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:54:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: How to draw foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/24/2004 5:36:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, GImasterBK@AOL.COM writes: FIRST, using little or no smoke, find the queen, and transfer her and the frame he is on into an empty hive body. Now, George, that is easier said than done!!! I hardly ever find the queen, except when I'm not looking for her. Maybe you could give me some suggestions on the best way to locate the queen? I hope you are not bent on letting the split raise a new queen on its own. If so, you are not diversifying the genetics of your bees, and there is a strong chance that a decent queen will NOT be produced, and further this split will be in bad shape before any new progeny is produced. Yes, George, I am bent on letting the bees make their own queen. I have had a year of experience doing that and compared to the queen I purchased (and after 3 weeks the bees superceded her,) I think they will take care of a bad queen. I took notes last year and determined which hives had the best queen (laying pattern, no swarming, honey production and gentleness,) and I used that stock to requeen. As for diversifying, I think that happens when I bring back swarms. You would be SO MUCH BETTER OFF to spend $10-$12 and buy a new queen from some local California queen breeder. I am much aware that some readers are going to DISAGREE with me, and I don't give a damn; but allowing your bees to raise a new queen for a split rather than furnishing a new queen 24 hours after the split is about as archaic as your grandmother's bustle, or the Wright Brothers flight at Kitty Hawk, or Henry Fords Model T. So, I disagree with you on this point, however, I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time???!!! LOL Kathy Cox, Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets Northern California, Italian, 15 hives www.kathycox.frankcox.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:04:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Young queens If a queen hatches out when the weather is too cold to go on her mating flight, how long can she wait before the weather conditions permit her to mate? In other words, after how many days is it imposible or unlikely that she will successfully mate? Thanks :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:22:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Sugar syrup vrs corn syrup In-Reply-To: <004501c3ffc3$05c79f60$e2e9d518@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-18C45D6E; boundary="=======52781355=======" --=======52781355======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-18C45D6E; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > BTW, HFCS 45 is nothing but a type that has fewer solids than HFCS 55. >Therefore it is always less expensive. However, the bees need to spend more >energy to convert HFCS 45 to a usable form than the energy needed for HFCS >55, so on an equivilent energy basis, HFCS 55 usually (always?) works out to >be a less expensive feed. 45 has less fructose than 55. Fructose is what helps prevent it from crystallizing...honeys with high fructose % don't readily crystallize, either. You will probably be sorry if you feed 45. It will crystallize so fast, that the bees won't be able to empty the feeders. Mike --=======52781355=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:29:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Young queens In-Reply-To: <200403012104.i21JkpQP002576@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:04 PM 3/1/2004, you wrote: >In other words, after how many days is it imposible or unlikely that >she will successfully mate? According to one source she can wait up to 3 weeks before starting to lay unfertilized eggs. However, it's also more likely to get a poorly mated queen when you have only a brief break in the weather. She may mate only with very few drones before the weather turns bad again, and while she may start laying fertilized eggs but will run out of sperm prematurely. http://members.aol.com/queenb95/queenrear.html -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:31:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: lots of dead bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live in upstate New York, have over 100 hives, only half survived, I use wooden boxes, no insulation, and plastic frames...sad, sad. I checked them Feb 28-29th after one of the longest prolonged sub 40 degree winters in years. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:01:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: lots of dead bees In-Reply-To: <143.22f41be9.2d74f789@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-66A15581; boundary="=======6E4B46F1=======" --=======6E4B46F1======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-66A15581; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Rick said: >I live in upstate New York, have over 100 hives, only half survived, I use > no insulation >Ballston Lake, NY None? Not even the on inner cover? Do you use an upper entrance? I have bees 150 miles north of you, and haven't found any losses like that. I checked three yards yesterday, and found only 3 dead. They are getting light, though. Mike > --=======6E4B46F1=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 20:06:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Finding queen..was..How to draw foundation In-Reply-To: <1d0.1ad9232e.2d74eeeb@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-66A15581; boundary="=======447279E=======" --=======447279E======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-66A15581; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Kathy said: >I hardly ever find the queen, >except when I'm not looking for her. Maybe you could give me some suggestions >on the best way to locate the queen? Do you have a procedure you use to find the queen? Or, like so many do...you just start looking at the top of the hive, and work your way down? Mike --=======447279E=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:20:51 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: HFCS In-Reply-To: <002001c3ffaf$4c040f40$5abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bob Harrison wrote > Granted pure honey DOES NOT contain 42% & 55% fructose. The sugar percentages in HFCS are routinely expressed as a percentage of the total *dry solids* of the syrup (which excludes the water). http://www.wcommerce.com/CornSyrup/55.PDF Sugars in honey are routinely expressed as a percentage of the total weight (which includes the water). i.e. The average value of honey is 38.50% fructose with 17.1% water (NHB figures). This gives a dry weight percentage of fructose (directly comparable with the HFCS measure) of 46.4%. A honey with 45% fructose (high but not unusual) and 18% water would be 54.9% fructose. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:12:11 -0500 Reply-To: Elisabeth Faulkner Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Elisabeth Faulkner Subject: Re: Finding queen..was..How to draw foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What is your preferred method for finding the Queen? TIA, Elisabeth Faulkner & asst'd. Co. emfaulkner@earthlink.net Esmont, Virginia, USA "...on the road again..." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Palmer" Do you have a procedure you use to find the queen? Or, like so many do...you just start looking at the top of the hive, and work your way down? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:03:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: lots of dead bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick, You site Wooden Boxes, Plastic frames, and NO insulation as if THEY were responsible for the death of your bees in the cold weather. Read Dr. Edward Southwick's work on the effect of cold on bees. He "proved" that a strong colony of healthy bees with ample stores could easily survive when kept at temperatures zero, 20 below, 40 below and even 80 below for at least a month, and usually several months. The point of the research is to prove that COLD does not kill HEALTHY bees that have correct winter stores. If a beekeeper tried to get weak colonies through a cold winter, or more particularly, if the winter food was NOT choice slow crystallizing honey, but was goldenrod or aster honey, the bees did not survive. Forgetting the obvious things like AFB or mites, did you treat your bees with Fumidil-B in October to prevent NOSEMA disease? Bee scientists estimate that 60% of ALL colonies of bees in the U. S. have NOSEMA, which normally does not kill a colony, but makes it so weak that it might not survive a prolonged cold snap. I am NOT trying to be nasty, but rather informative. Bees have been kept in upper New York, and all over Canada for decades in non insulated wooden hives with only minor winter losses. The "key" seems to be that a colony must be STRONG, disease FREE, and have HIGH GRADE winter stores. I have watched your writings for a long time, and you obviously are most conscientious; so I thought I might help you. For what it is worth, the Washington, DC weather bureau has said that our Maryland weather this winter was the 2nd longest coldest winter since 1871; and I did not lose a single colony; but I know of many, many dead ones that were just not properly prepared by their owners to go into a long, cold winter. I hope I have helped. George Imirie, Retired Scientist Starting my 72nd year of beekeeping in Maryland Certified EAS Master Beekeeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:13:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: HFCS Comments: To: peter@airborne.co.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: The sugar percentages in HFCS are routinely expressed as a percentage of the total *dry solids* of the syrup (which excludes the water). True. But what I am saying is that HFCS as sold in the U.S.and we use as bee feed (which is commonly 42% & 55% ) does not belong in a pure honey. Along the lines which you so validly point out adulteration with HFCS (adding /cutting to increase profits) is hard to detect. Perhaps as Peter points out the adulteration can not be detected until the fructose level reaches a certain level which is not normally found in honey. I am not sure. Can the HFCS we buy in the U.S. (42% & 55%) be by testing found or does testing by the FDA only show the simple fructose level (percentage of the total *dry solids* of the honey)? If the FDA only uses the method as proposed by Peter then a packer with a lab could check the percentage of fructose in a honey and add enough HFCS to reach the highest known level in the honey and escape detection (or am I misunderstanding the issue)? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:30:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: How to draw foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/1/04 4:48:28 PM, LovemgrFan@AOL.COM writes: << Now, George, that is easier said than done!!! I hardly ever find the queen, except when I'm not looking for her. Maybe you could give me some suggestions on the best way to locate the queen? >> Kathy, I don't want to write a whole book about "how to find a queen", but much has been written on this subject. Hence, I will only mention what beekeepers who have a good knowledge of BEE BEHAVIOR do; with a side remark or so. ALL queens should be MARKED, not only so they can be more easily seen, but more important so YOU know the queen that you saw on July 4th is the same queen that was in the colony back on April 15th. Maybe this is not important to you, but if you were keeping bees in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, or Southern California, you surely would want to know if your new queen had be bred with a bunch of Africanized Drones, if for no other reason, to protect you in the event of a lawsuit from a stung neighbor. Speaking for myself, I raise only Carniolans, and my queens are artificially inseminated with Carniolan drone semen, so any UNmarked queen in one of my colonies is an "outcast" because she might be bred by every "boy bee for miles around", and their progeny is just a bunch of bastard worker bees. Ending, MARK your queens with Testor's Model Paint that will NOT wear off and lasts for years. When you open a colony, using smoke to let them "know you are coming", what happens? You have upset the entire decorum of the colony and ALL bees are RUNNING somewhere away from that smoke, and so is the queen. Further, queens are SHY, and have only been outside the hive once in their life, their mating day, so they are not used to DAYLIGHT and much prefer to stay in the dark. Hence to look for a queen, blow a small puff in the front entrance and a small puff in the upper entrance and YOU go have a Coca-Cola for 1-2 minutes (VERY DIFFICULT). Next, WITHOUT opening any, REMOVE all supers and set them aside. The queen is in one of the two DEEP brood chambers (or one of 3 Medium Brood Chambers if you keep bees like I do - all mediums, and NO deeps.) DON'T START IN THE TOP BROOD CHAMBER LOOKING FOR THE QUEEN, BECAUSE SHE IS JUST GOING TO RUN BELOW. Hence, divide your brood boxes and search each individually, so she only has 10 frames to hide on instead of 20 deep frames or 30 medium frames. I rarely look for a queen unless I want to CONFINE her or MOVE her; but 95% of the time, if I see white pearly larvae, then I know the queen is laying and the brood is healthy. But if I have to find the queen for splitting or requeening, I look for her in the way I described and usually find her within 10 minutes after I first puffed a VERY SMALL WHIFF of smoke into the colony. Books can be written about the proper use of smoke. It is both an art and a science, and there are SO MANY outside conditions that indicate more smoke, less smoke, or no smoke. I am reminded of the smokers that I had to use in South America when investigating apis mellifera scutellata (the AHB). To try and control those devils, you had to use more smoke on one colony than produced in a California forest fire. Forgetting that, we are using calm European honey bees, the average hobbyist beekeeper uses far too much smoke in place of using his brain to understand BEE BEHAVIOR. Sorry, for being long-winded, but it is my scientist way of saying I don't like any stones left unturned. Regarding raising your own queens, I think you are TOTALLY WRONG. Queens purchased from a REAL queen BREEDER who has a skilled understanding of honey bee GENETICS, are so superior to those queens raised by that myriad number of queen PRODUCERS out there that don't know the difference between bombus, vespula, and apis. YOU seem to be an intelligent lady, who is trying to learn. Read the writings of LAIDLAW and PAGE about honey bee GENETICS, or Norm Gary's genetic work, of Freidrich Ruttner (if you can read German), or even Sue Cobey's genetic work to develop the NEW WORLD CARNIOLAN line of apis. I hope I have helped, and made you THINK. Thanks for writing to me. George Imirie, Retired Scientist Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Beginning my 72nd year of successful beekeeping :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:05:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scott L Wiegel Subject: Re: Finding queen..was..How to draw foundation In-Reply-To: <001e01c3fffb$c8578940$4770bc3f@elizabet6jma8o> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > What is your preferred method for finding the Queen? > I was reading "Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding" by Laidlaw and Page the other night and came upon a method that was presented there that I had not heard of before. I will paraphrase the method outlined by the book. For difficult to find queens, simply put a queen excluder and cluster box below the brood chamber that you suspect she is in and then apply a liberal amount of cool, dense smoke to the top of the combs. If you wait a short while and check the excluder, the queen should be caught trying to get into the cluster box with the rest of the bees. If you don't find her in the first box, repeat with the other brood chambers. I haven't actually tried this - but thought that it would work quite well to find shy queens - especially in the fall when there are typically lots of bored, ill-tempered bees in the hive. It would also seem to be faster than disassembling the entire hive in search of the queen. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 07:13:27 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Spring is on the way MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not around here! We had 15C in early February and the bees were out in their thousands, but for the last 10 days it has been between -7C to +5C. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:59:06 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: # of drones in hive/further MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry > However, all rabbits have a father and a mother. What I did not mention, was that Fibonacci got his sums wrong as far as rabbits were concerned, but the case for the honey bee fits exactly, providing the number of generations being considered is large. The Fibonacci work is quite old, he lived 1170 - 1250. I am currently pursuing permission to publish some info that was recently presented both graphically and in tabular form, I will put up a link when this is done. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:37:53 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Young queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim & all > after how many days is it imposible or unlikely that > she will successfully mate? The numbers below refer back to the day of grafting larvae... So unlikely = 14 days and impossible = 25 days Day +12 The thirteenth day, normal emergence should happen, but precise timing is not possible as it is unknown what time of day the original eggs were laid. Day +?? It is not possible to be exact as to when a virgin becomes fully fertile, but is usually within 6 days of emergence. Day +?? Mating is always a variable time, being dependant on weather, but if it has not happened within 14 days of emergence then a deterioration process sets in and any mating that does take place may be less than perfect. Day +37 At some point the virgin becomes un-mateable, but it is impossible to be certain when. However if no eggs are seen in the mating nuc by this time... Kill the queen, refresh the nuc with some young bees and start again. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Vaughan" To: Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:04 PM Subject: [BEE-L] Young queens > If a queen hatches out when the weather is too cold to go on her mating > flight, how long can she wait before the weather conditions permit her to > mate? In other words, after how many days is it imposible or unlikely that > she will successfully mate? > Thanks > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 07:51:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Re: lots of dead bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks George, I did not treat since I saw no mites in the fall and in fact hives I treated in the fall as a small experiement also died, I did not treat for nosema however, and their is much goldenrod in this area, and yes many were weaker colonies; and plastic, plus wooden boxes I have read are non issues, thanks for reinforcing that, I tested one year and wrapped 50 percent but it made no difference, my suspicions are nosema, weak colonies to begin with and goldenrod. Regards, Rick Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:31:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: HFCS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At the risk of adding greater confusion to Mr. Wiegel's statement:) "So, again I ask, If there is no difference in the health of the honeybee colony; and it is easier and cheaper for the beekeeper – why shouldn't we be feeding HFCS55 as the preferred source of winter feed?" Why do some folks buy bottled water at the grocery store bring it home and then cook with water from the tap? In fact some tap water is so highly treated that it is unadvisable to use it to feed bees! (see:http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/syrup/feed.htm#1) Then, there is the very respectable opinion of Allen Dick as noted in his diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/syrup/feed.htm That last link should help clear up any confusion, except for one additional item, cost of feed (protein and carbohydrates). Most commercial beekeepers will not compromise quality for price, but they will look high and low for the best prices. Hobbyists have the problem of not being able to handle minimum tanker loads, yet they must search for suitable sources of feed. Buying a hundred pounds or so of powdered sugar from broken bags is not good for your bees as the starch used to keep the sugar in powder form will cause digestive problems. ALL beekeepers have problems feeding bees! Some problems are created by shortages of pollen and honey; other problems are created by that which is manufactured by mankind or other bees. Each situation can be different. A beekeeper who is just learning about bees will have problems trying to sift the flour so the only the truths are allowed to settle in the bowl of knowledge. Yet, this vocation and avocation is so full of hearsays, old wives tales, and "it works for me(s)" that to be judgmental with any degree of authenticity beekeepers must look for rational scientific reasons that have been proven in statistical scientific studies, an experienced mentor, and good common sense. I also suggest one should consult with caution and prudence that which has been published in many bee magazines and on the BEE-L and then search further with such links that have been noted within the archives of BEE-L. BEE-L is a wonderful gift for all who care to read it. BEE-L is available because there are some very knowledgeable folks who take the time to read and post responsible answers to a myriad of beekeeping questions. The BEE- L is IMO successful because of the manner in which it exists; and the work of a handful of beekeepers who help moderate this list. Then there is one other beekeeper who unselfishly endeavors to continue BEE-L's existence and is responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of this excellent source of beekeeping advice and rhetoric, the OWNER. To all these folks I tip my hat and give my sincere THANK YOU for helping me become a better beekeeper by providing such a wonderful well of knowledge! Sincerely, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC 27320 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:31:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: Re: lots of dead bees MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi all, I also live in upstate NY, also wooden boxes and plastic frames. Don't have as many hives as Rick Green, but I also lost half due to the cold. I did a little experiment, I wrapped all my hives, but 1/2 of them I moved to touch each other and wrapped them together in bundles of 2 or 4. My experiment was born of laziness on my part, moving hives is a lot of work! Next fall, I'll not be so lazy - of the surviving hives, all but one were the ones that were wrapped together. Don Campbell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Green" > I live in upstate New York, have over 100 hives, only half survived, I use > wooden boxes, no insulation, and plastic frames...sad, sad. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 06:37:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Farler Subject: Trucks for Hauling bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Would appreciate any thoughts or recommendations on truck sizes and capacities for hauling hives. I've been looking at a one ton diesal with an Allison transmission and a flat deck. Thoughts on how many hives (deep and a medium) can be hauled w/ a forklight on a trailer in back. Will this limit the size of my apiaries or how many I can service in one trip? I know some of you pull your own semi-loads out for the almond bloom. What are the pro's and con's of using a contract hauler. I have no idea what they would charge to drag a full load out there with nets, versus finding an used tractor and running it myself. Is there a going per mile rate for dragging bees? thanks, brent carabella farm --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:04:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: lots of dead bees In-Reply-To: <000e01c40062$ff7acf10$6401a8c0@upstairs> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donald Campbell wrote: > I also live in upstate NY, also wooden boxes and plastic frames. Don't have > as many hives as Rick Green, but I also lost half due to the cold. > I did a little experiment, I wrapped all my hives, but 1/2 of them I moved > to touch each other and wrapped them together in bundles of 2 or 4. Not an unusual practice for areas of extreme cold. Check the Hive and Honey Bee for examples. The keys for successful wintering starts with the queen, stores, number of bees and health of the bees. Everything after is gravy. But if you do not have the first group, you are starting behind the curve and losses are usually because of those factors. My experience is that long cold spells that result in lost colonies is usually an indictment of winter stores. Usually Varroa gives an early winter kill, starvation can come at any time but usually when brood starts and the bees are confined to the brood area (early spring/late winter). Tracheal also can come at any time since often, bees can make it through with them but will be weak. With 50% winter losses and winter not yet over), I would look for tracheal and the kind of stores (assuming fall Varroa treatment with a little seasonal IPM). Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:03:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Winter losses in upstate NY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of large losses, Rick said "my suspicions are nosema, weak colonies to begin with and goldenrod." I agree, except possibly concerning the goldenrod. I have 200 colonies just 20 miles south of Rick, and also overwintered 35 four-frame nucs. I use plastic foundation, but wood frames (I hate the Pierco frames) and wood hives. I insist of lots of top ventilation, and my favorite ventilation scheme leaves a 1/2" slot totally across the front top of the upper hive body, with a galvanized telescoping cover perched on the top of the 1/2" slot and sloping to the back of the hive. (In other words, the 1/2" slot is totally exposed.) I also use screen bottom boards. My hives are not wrapped, but the nucs were wrapped with a single layer of roofing felt. Out of 72 hives checked so far, I have lost 3. I did not lose a single nuc...but they are light and need to be fed as soon as I can get a truck into the yard. Last year was terrible for honey production, and I fed lots of HFCS 55 in the fall and treated for Varroa. I have not treated for tracheal mites in 5 years. I did not treat for Nosema, but those who do so get higher honey production, IMHO. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:44:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Winter losses in upstate NY In-Reply-To: <007d01c4006f$f72b5ac0$e2e9d518@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:03 AM 3/2/2004, you wrote: >Last year was terrible for honey production, Same problem here in ohio. Honey production was off, and the fall flows were non existent (3 weeks of the heaviest robbing I've ever seen and even italian queens stopped laying). Most losses I've seen were from starvation and most of them could have been saved If i had realized it and fed them 2-3 weeks earlier than I did this year. I expect some huge losses from those who didn't feed in the fall and haven't started feeding yet in our area. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:53:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Trucks for Hauling bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brent asks: I've been looking at a one ton diesal with an Allison transmission and a flat deck. Thoughts on how many hives (deep and a medium) can be hauled w/ a forklight on a trailer in back. I will give my opinion and others can give theirs. We get stuck bad in Missouri in wet weather. I just got finnished pulling out my bucket loader tractor buried to the frame with a 150 HP four wheel drive tractor. My four wheel drive one ton would not pull the tractor out and got stuck also. The above truck you are considering will work fine in dry weather. One tons are used for short moves by us of a bee yard or so. The above truck would not work for us in the rainy season in Missouri unless four wheel drive. Two much weight in the front end. We actually prefer the big gas engines because of less weight in the front end. William asks: Will this limit the size of my apiaries or how many I can service in one trip? We use at times a super duty 450 ford one ton flatbed which will haul all the hives you can load on and still pull a forklift behind but is so rough riding will make you sick if riding MT a long way. When stuck takes a wrecker or farm tractor to pull out. A farmer which had bees on his land blew the engine on his four wheel drive trying to pull the above truck out of the mud several years ago and we blew the 460 up in the above truck up two years ago trying to get unstuck in a remote yard. easy to figure the amount of hives you can carry when you know the skid size etc. Figure height and width of skid. Brent said: I know some of you pull your own semi-loads out for the almond bloom. What are the pro's and con's of using a contract hauler. Most use contract hauler's but you need to know how to load the load and furnish the nets. If you use a professiional bee hauler he will have his own nets and boards. Brent asks: I have no idea what they would charge to drag a full load out there with nets, versus finding an used tractor and running it myself. Is there a going per mile rate for dragging bees? Different prices but not cheap and professional bee haulers are always in demand in peak season. I would say between 1.50 to 2.00 U.S. per mile each way. I would suggest using a professional the first time so you can learn how to load and net the semi. Also you will need someone to unload in California in a holding area. Another to put the hives in the Almonds. Another to remove to the holding area and still another to load the semi for hte return trip. Many beekeepers which hire all of the above done say they only break even on Almond pollination but the hives winter in a warm location. Hives with telescoping lids are hard to haul! A few professional bee haulers will not haul a load of hives with telescoping lids as they tend to shift in transit. The next step up from a one ton is the larger flatbed truck like most larger beekeepers use. Such a truck is for sale in Missouri and in is use today in the bee business. I called my associate on his cell phone who is using the truck today and he says the truck is for sale as he flew to Denver, colorado last Friday and brought back a newer truck to replace the old. The truck will haul 144 hives of bees (our skids) and easily pull a forklift behind. Is a 7000 Ford ,has a 3208 diesal cat motor and 10 speed road ranger transmission and 18 foot bed. The truck is old but runs good and has made a couple out of state hauls in the last six months (Nebraska & Iowa). Has side boxes and hooks for ropes. Possibly the nets could be bought with the truck but did not think to ask my partner. I personally have hauled bees to Texas with the truck. Sincerely, Bob Harrison . :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 12:06:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Trucks for Hauling bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Another bee truck is for sale in Nebraska. Bigger than the last. 10 wheel , double back axle, 35 foot bed, 3208 cat motor, 10 speed road ranger. Old but in use. We have had 268 hives on the above (our size skids). Hooks for ropes. Nets might be available. email me or my partner for information. busybeeacres@discoverynet.com or bellhill@planetkc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:10:49 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: The Moir Library in Scotland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are fortunate in Scotland to have a wonderful old collection of books connected with beekeeping called the Moir Library -the books in the Moir Library belong to the Scottish Beekeepers Association (SBA) and most are housed in the Fountainbridge library in Edinburgh. However a collection of the oldest/rarest books (the Moir Rare Books Collection), with material dating back to 1525, has been loaned to The National Library of Scotland and some of the material can be accessed at http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/moir/collector.html Indebted to SBA Library Convener Tom McGravie For interest in Scottish Beekeeping -See also SBA Site www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/ Alan Riach Bathgate, Edinburgh,Scotland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 16:44:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Fairfax Subject: Winter cluster size in New World Carniolan stock I'm a hobby beekeeper located west of Boston Massachusetts. I use New World Carniolan (NWC) queens from Strachan Apiaries. I like the NWC for their ability to forage during the frequently cool, damp New England spring and summertime weather. I also like the formal closed population breeding program administered by Sue Colby at Ohio State University. This year featured some of the coldest January weather on record. I wrap the hives with tar paper, winter in two deeps, entering the winter with at least 80 lb of honey on each hive, more typically 100 lb. There are top entrance holes bored near the handholds for additional ventilation. Last weekend it got warm enough (48 F) to let me take a quick peek in the hives. The hives were quite light, but with very large populations, much larger than I am accustomed to seeing in overwintering Carniolans. The small cluster in traditional Carniolans means that they use less honey during winter. Checking the OSU site, I note that they are now selecting for larger winter clusters in order to facilitate more rapid spring build-up. Speaking strictly for myself, I have never found the Carniolans to lack anything in spring build-up. Indeed, if I am the least bit tardy in my inspections, manipulations, and splits, I get swarms. Has anyone else noted very large Carniolan clusters with NWC stock? Knowing that I will get 3 opinions from every 2 beekeepers, I'll still risk the question: Are the benefits of even more rapid spring build-up worth the costs of feeding a larger winter cluster? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 16:55:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: finding the queen in a cluster box MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >slwiegel@PRAIRIEINET.NET writes in regards to >finding the queen, that she will be trying to get into the >cluster box. What do you mean by "cluster box?" Kathy Cox, Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets Northern California, Italian, 15 hives www.kathycox.frankcox.net" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:19:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Winter cluster of NWC's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve said: "The hives were quite light, but with very large populations, much larger than I am accustomed to seeing in overwintering Carniolans. The small cluster in traditional Carniolans means that they use less honey during winter." Sue Cobey has said for several years that her customers wanted larger winter clusters for earlier buildup. I know that this has been primarily coming from Calif. customers, who make a substantial part of their income on pollination of almonds. Pollination of almonds is in early to mid-February in most years. Keep in mind that Strachan is the only operation licensed to do instrumental insemination for development and maintaince of NWC's. The others all buy their tested II queens directly from Sue Cobey. One might find that Strachan is selecting for larger winter clusters more than Sue...that is pure speculation on my part, but Strachan gets an important part of their income from almond pollination. For my part, I have not noticed consistently larger winter clusters and hope I do not. When I started beekeeping in the mid-1960's the #1 beekeeper problem was keeping bees from starving to death during the winter. Following a 'normal' year, that problem has largely disappeared in the Northeast and I attribute that to the widespread acceptance of NWC's. Steve, you may want to try queens from a different NWC breeder and see if you notice a difference. I get mine from Heitkam and Kona, and I have also heard good things about Shubert's program. I understand Kona is sold out for 2004 (!), and probably everyone else is for April. Heitkam is 530-865-9562. Schubert is 530-795-2124. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 07:39:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Farler Subject: Winter cluster of NWC's In-Reply-To: <200403030500.i234vvNH013824@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Steve, you may want to try queens from a different NWC breeder and see if you notice a difference. I get mine from Heitkam and Kona, and I have also heard good things about Shubert's program. I understand Kona is sold out for 2004 (!), and probably everyone else is for April. Heitkam is 530-865-9562. Schubert is 530-795-2124. Ohio Queen Breeders has a Carnie line that they have been crossing in the SMR traits out of the Harbo line. While they don't sell production queens they might be able to point you to a breeder that is selling offspring from their line. Their line breeding colonies are all in central Ohio so they know what a real winter is like. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:19:50 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig@NETZERO.COM Subject: Re: Winter cluster of NWC's Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain 'For my part, I have not noticed consistently larger winter clusters and hope I do not. When I started beekeeping in the mid-1960's the #1 beekeeperproblem was keeping bees from starving to death during the winter. Following a 'normal' year, that problem has largely disappeared in the Northeast and I attribute that to the widespread acceptance of NWC's.' Lloyd, How big are your NWC clusters at this time of the year (1st week in March)? My NWCs cover about 4-5 frames when the temperatures are in the 30's. Are your NWC clusters about the same? We are still some 8 weeks from the start of the typical Long Island flow giving some 3 brood cycles by the 1st week in May - I think enough to fill two deeps with bees when the temps move up into the 70s. Would you agree with this? Thank you. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:14:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: size of winter clusters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar asked bout the size of my NWC winter clusters. I'd say they are 3-5 frames, but the only day I looked for brood it was limited to 1-2 frames. Some had no easily-visible brood in the center of the top box, but that doesn't mean that there were not eggs or young larvae there, or there was not brood in the next box. There is a world of difference between our 'inland' climate here, and your coastal climate on Long Island. Our USDA climate zone is 4, while I think yours is 6. Our red maples are in full bud, but not blooming. Dandelions bloom May 10-15. It will not be at all unusual for us to get another 6-12 inches of snow! I make splits around April 20. I will typically find lots of hives with 5-8 frames of brood. (A 'frame' in this reference is one with 50% or more of the cells with eggs or brood in some stage.) I will take 2 frames from those with 7-8 frames and 1 frame from those with 5-6 frames, and by late May they will still want to swarm if I fail to give them a new queen. I consider our first flow as starting about June 1. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:43:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Snowbound beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Eat your hearts out! http://hemingwaysouthcarolina.com/ Or better yet - y'all come visit South Carolina! Dave Green SC USA http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:29:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Claire & Paul Desilets Subject: SABA Seminar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To those on this list who live within "spittin' distance" of Albany who did not attend the SABA Spring Seminar: Shame on You! You missed out on six good presentations, not to mention the knowledge, expertise and camraderie of fellow beekeepers. Kudos to Anne and Aaron, and the rest of the folks who put this program together. It was definitely worth the ride from Cape Cod. This from one who knows what is involved. Paul Desilets Barnstable County Beekeepers, Mass Beekeepers' Assn. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:57:40 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lots of dead bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/03/04 05:03:33 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > , did you treat your bees with > Fumidil-B in October to prevent NOSEMA disease? > Fumidil does not prevent Nosema, it merely prevents it multiplying where it > is present and when the bees are consuming stores with this anti-biotic. It > does nothing to deal with the millions of persistent spores contaminating > the combs and will be activated in the guts of bees as the colony expands in > the spring and worker bees use their tongues to clean comb. > > If you use Fumidil it should be as part of a programme of rigorous comb > renewal and fumigation with 80% acetic acid which will kill many disease > organisms as well as rapidly removing the skin from your fingers. Handle with care. > It breaks down to CO2 and water I believe. > > Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 23:05:36 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig@NETZERO.COM Subject: Re: size of winter clusters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I'd say they are 3-5 frames, but the only day I looked for brood it was limited to 1-2 frames. [...] I make splits around April 20. Thank you, Lloyd. This is in line with my build-up estimates. >>difference between our 'inland' climate here, and your coastal climate on Long Island. Our USDA climate zone is 4, while I think yours is 6. I think we are borderline 6. The ocean is a big moderator but occasionally we get hit by arctic blasts. We have had bee-flying weather for roughly 3 days. (We have had snow on the ground for weeks and subzero temps.) And already I sees foragers coming back with brown, orange, and green pollen. A sure sign build-up will take off like wild fire. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:04:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: was How to draw foundation. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/03/04 05:03:33 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > of Freidrich Ruttner (if you can read German), > > An English translation by Ashleigh and Eric Milner of Ruttner's 'Breeding > Techniques and Selection for Breeding of the Honeybee' was published by the > British Isles Bee Breeding Association (BIBBA) in 1988. The ISBN is > 0-905369-07-6. I reached for this information without leaving my seat. It is a well > thumbed book and I recommend it. > > Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 20:14:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Young queens Thanks to Tim and Dave. I've got a half-dozen or so that have hatched within the last few weeks and aren't laying. It's supposed to get to the low 70s this weekend, so I'll plan on checking at the end of next week. Regards Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:29:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Lots of dead bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris: > Fumidil does not prevent Nosema, it merely prevents it multiplying where it is present and when the bees are consuming stores with this anti-biotic. It does nothing to deal with the millions of persistent spores contaminating the combs and will be activated in the guts of bees as the colony expands in the spring and worker bees use their tongues to clean comb. Hope we can agree to disagree here Chris! I test many bees for myself and others each year for nosema. The feeding of fumidil-B stops nosema dead in its tracks as proven by late spring and summer testing I have done on bees. In hives of beekeepers which do not ever feed Fumidil-B I can always find nosema but many times the nosema remains at a level at which the beekeeper never misses the lost honey production or sees nosema as a possible cause of poor wintering. Actually certain strains of bees seem to do just fine with low levels of nosema. Research shows that bees *heavily infected* with nosema die about two weeks earlier than normal. The last two weeks of the bees life is spent as a forager. Richard Taylor used to say he never treated for nosema in the bee magazines. He felt the losses in honey crop did not make up for the cost for Fumidil -B, labor & syrup. Then one spring he lost most his bees. When checked the problem was found to be a extremely high nosema problem. I always liked the honesty of Richard Taylor. Richard wrote about his deadouts and how they could have been prevented by monitoring for nosema and treating. *Stress* causes nosema to many times raise its ugly head from my experience. I do not automatically treat spring and fall for nosema but do monitor nosema levels in my yards. Everytime I can do IPM and skip a treatment or feeding I have helped my bottom line. I would never skip a treatment I thought was needed to maintain health in my hives. Chris said: > If you use Fumidil it should be as part of a programme of rigorous comb renewal and fumigation with 80% acetic acid which will kill many disease organisms as well as rapidly removing the skin from your fingers. Handle with care. > It breaks down to CO2 and water I believe. I do not know of even one U.S. beekeeper which practices the above radical method for *nosema*!. I certainly am not concerned enough about nosema to go to the above extremes. What do others on the list think? Sincerely, Bob Harrison "A discussion should always present both sides! What kind of discussion would it be if we always agreed?" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 20:52:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Hack Subject: Re: Lots of dead bees In-Reply-To: <002301c40189$7a605f20$0fbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, How do you test for nosema? Is pulling out the gut and checking for a light honey color reliable enough? When I store wet supers I slop about 5 tablespoons of 98% acetic in each stack supers and put a inner cover on the stack. My supers are stacked in a small room that is also sealed. I'm thinking if any wax moths got into the supers (by chance) it would kill them. In any dead outs I find, I clean out the dead bees, slop in about 2 tablespoons of 98% acetic and seal up the hive. When I come back a few weeks later to utilize the equipment for nucs, I seldom find any mold. Before I used to have to deal with a horrible mess of moldy dead bees and moldy pollen. I buy the acetic in 20 liter carboys, so the treatment is very cheap and only takes seconds. Does this help control nosema in any significant way, or just make me feel better? So far this winter I have only had one dead out of 60+ hives and one dead 4 frame nuc. Last fall as an experiment I did not treat with Fumidil, but now I notice more poop on and around the hives (and on me) when they started their cleansing flights. So this spring I refer to them as "my poopy sisters). I'm keeping my fingers crossed I'll have no more dead outs before spring. Bob from the Shuswap, BC =============================================== > Behalf Of Bob Harrison > > Chris said: > > If you use Fumidil it should be as part of a programme of rigorous comb > renewal and fumigation with 80% acetic acid which will kill many disease > organisms as well as rapidly removing the skin from your fingers. Handle > with care. > > It breaks down to CO2 and water I believe. > > I do not know of even one U.S. beekeeper which practices the above radical > method for *nosema*!. I certainly am not concerned enough about > nosema to go > to the above extremes. What do others on the list think? > > Sincerely, > Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:56:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Trucks for Hauling bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Brent, it really depends on what you are doing with your hives. After many years of moving bees and also as the technical advisor to the Quebec commercial beekeepers, I would stay away from "one tonnes" unless you can be sure that the engine and transmission is really strong. These vehicles are really glorified "pick-ups" and break easily. Here we have a International Low Profile ( which replaced the 1 ton), which is built strong, has a small V8 diesel, air suspension and a 16ft deck. It also has a Payne loader which we use for pulling honey. It works really well for local work, manoeuvres well in tight spots and the deck is no higher than a 1 ton. BUT when it's stuck, it's truly stuck! The maintenance and repairs have cost less than the earlier 1 ton. For long hauls we use a transport company who has experience hauling bees, they are equipped with top notch tractors (with full lock!) and trailers; and at the moment I wouldn't think of doing the long hauls any other way. A lot of beekeepers run around with small trucks which don't need inspections and are not obliged to stop at scales. These are very often overloaded; not good for the truck nor for the safety of occupants and other road users. Peter > Would appreciate any thoughts or recommendations on truck sizes and capacities for hauling hives. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 07:34:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Colors of Pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" G. M. Doolittle writes from Borodino, NY -- in 1882: I believe I know from what my bees get pollen of the various colors ... In this locality, the first pollen comes from skunk cabbage, and is of a bright yellow. The next, and immediately after, is from "pople," as it is called here ... The color of this pollen is black ... The blossom is quite similar to that of the pussy willow, except that, while the willow blossom stands upright, the blossom of the pople is drooping, and sways back in forth in the wind. The pollen-spikes are also black, while those of the willow are yellow. Next comes the pollen from the pussy-willow, which is an orange-yellow color. These are the three earliest kinds; but before the pople and willow fall, soft-maple and elm take the attention of the bees. Right here I shall have to disagree with friend Root, for he says, "I should say the yellow pollen came from soft-maples." I have watched bees many times at work on soft-maple, and they invariably gathered a light-pink pollen while they were at work thereon. Elm, both of the swamp, the white, and the slippery kind, all furnish abundance of pollen, all of which are different shades of green -- that from the swamp elm being so light that it might be termed yellow by the casual observer. Next comes the hard-maple, which gives an abundance of pollen of a lemon-yellow color. Following this comes, dandelion, wild grape, etc., till our interest is lost in pollen by seeing the combs growing white with newly secreted wax used in lengthening out the cells to store honey that is now coming in. ["pople", or "popple", is poplar -- includes aspen. Our writer certainly is a careful observer! pb] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 07:38:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: SABA In-Reply-To: <200403040500.i23NnNgX024875@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Claire & Paul Desilets wrote: "From: Claire & Paul Desilets Subject: SABA Seminar" That's interesting. I also belong to SABA, but down here in Alabama it means South Alabama Beekeepers' Association. It meets the first Thursday of the month at 7:00PM at the Jon Archer Agricultural Center, 1070 Schillinger Road, Mobile, Alabama. Paul, think we ought to trade programs? Mike Stoops Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery, Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:23:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: TAX TIME MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings to All, A fine morning it is here in North Carolina; bees working since sunup! NBC this morning on the Today Show talked about three different kinds of folks that “professionally" - for a fee - prepare income taxes. As beekeepers, we have situations unique from other beekeepers just down the road, yet we all share common bonds, tasks, expenses, etc. Articles have been written in bee magazines referring to prudent record keeping; but I know of no written sources that relate to tax planning and preparation for beekeepers. Furthermore, and without endorsement, it would be advantageous to know of a few specialists, individuals or firms, that are knowledgeable of our industry; perhaps a few pennies, shillings, or francs can be saved. Responses may be contributed either to the LIST or privately. Thank you in advance. Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:53:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: tax time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well...in 'another life' I happened to be a CPA, so know a thing or two about taxes. Enough, anyway, to know that one cannot give advice casually in a forum such as this. That said, those fortunate enough to have income from beekeeping need to recognize that beekeeping is a Farming Operation as far as the tax people are concerned. The Farm rules apply. If one has more than a piddling amount of gross sales from beekeeping (say, $5,000 or over) do not try to do your taxes without help. You will be penny wise and pound foolish. Also, do not use Intuit, Tax Cut, etc. Go to someone in your area who does tax returns for farmers. It will not cost you much, and will save you mega amounts. Good luck Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:22:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: TAX TAX TAX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw in a past issue of Bee Culture or something like that they had a tax tip. I have hives on other small farms and I charge a flat rate for them to be there. And they charge me the same for land use. See no money really changes hands. But it is legal and it does cut yours taxes. Yes, it does. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:57:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: TAX TAX TAX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Taxes are never expensive. I use Turbotax to fill out the forms for my tax. This year I changed to Taxcut because Turbotax limits E-file to only 1 filing. They were 5 in years past. If you can get by with only 1 E-file, use Turbotax, IMHO, it is the better of the 2. Turbotax is very simple and will guide you thru the whole process, IF YOU ARE FAIRLY FAMILIAR WITH FILING TAXES. If you know nothing about taxes, get help. Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 17:10:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Lots of dead bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I Understand it, Fumidil B stops Nosema inside the bee, by dealing with the protozoan, however spores are very likely to be left on the frames and comb, and these spores are the source of further outbreaks of Nosema. Sterilisation of the combs by fumigation with 80% acetic acid deals with the spores, wax moths (both species and is also supposed to deal with E.F.B. spores as well. The Bailey Shift is a method of moving the bees onto clean comb and when hatched out the old brood frames are sterilised. Ruary :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:11:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Colors of Pollen In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7955610E; boundary="=======47AB17E=======" --=======47AB17E======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7955610E; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit G. M. Doolittle writes from Borodino, NY -- in 1882: >I believe I know from what my bees get pollen of the various colors Peter writes: >["pople", or "popple", is poplar -- includes aspen. Our writer >certainly is a careful observer! pb] G.M. Doolittle is my favorite beekeeper/author. If you get a chance to read "Gleanings in Bee Culture" from the 1880's and 1890's, his columns..."Conversations with Doolittle"...are great reading. Mike --=======47AB17E=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 14:57:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scott L Wiegel Subject: Re: TAX TAX TAX In-Reply-To: <1cc.1b174f7a.2d78a3be@wmconnect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did not see the issue of Bee Culture that is mentioned in this thread - therefore I might be missing something - tax regulations are very complex and I am not an expert. But I think this thread steps into the territory that Lloyd was warning about... According to the IRS, bartering income is defined by the following statements: "Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber doing repair work for a dentist in exchange for dental services. The fair market value of goods and services exchanged must be included in the income of both parties." In another section of the IRS web site, they state than any income from bartering exchanges (which are businesses that specialize in bartering) must be reported on 1099-B - it is not clear if this is the mechanism that an individual must use to report bartering income. Since the company which provides the 1099-B does so to claim a valid expense - you can bet that the IRS software checks to ensure that this expense has been reported as income by the other party. For the exchange that you mention to be legal, you must state that you had income equal to the value of the goods or services received (in this case, your charge for placement of beehives). You may also, though, claim that you had a valid business expense (the charge back to you for the use of the land). At first glance, these seem to offset one another and thus would not increase your taxes - but this is deceptive due to the Alternative Minimum Tax laws (which are complex even by IRS standards). For example, if most of your income is associated with bartering, and you offset 100% of this income as business related expenses, then you will certainly be forced to pay some minimum taxes using these rules. A good tax accountant might be able to get around these rules - but I don't understand how it is done. I can see no way of legally saving taxes with this exchange and would appreciate an explanation if possible. You could save taxes if you reported the expense related to the barter - but not the income. But that is illegal as is made obvious by the IRS rules. In reality, bartering exchanges happen all the time in our economy and most people never report it as income or an expense on their taxes - let alone file a 1099. But this does not make it legal or the fines and penalties any less if you are the one that is caught. And I agree 100% with Lloyd - don't take anyone's advice except a CPA who specializes in tax accounting (and preferably has experience in farm tax law - it is a separate beast altogether). They will stand behind their work and recommendations - try getting that from any of the companies producing tax software. Scott > -----Original Message----- > From: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu] On > Behalf Of Russ Dean > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:23 AM > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: [BEE-L] TAX TAX TAX > > I saw in a past issue of Bee Culture or something like that they had a tax > tip. I have hives on other small farms and I charge a flat rate for them > to be > there. And they charge me the same for land use. See no money really > changes > hands. But it is legal and it does cut yours taxes. Yes, it does. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:54:53 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Winter cluster size in New World Carniolan stock > Last weekend it got warm enough (48 F) to let me take a quick peek in the hives. > The hives were quite light, but with very large populations, much larger than > I am accustomed to seeing in overwintering Carniolans. > The small cluster in traditional Carniolans means that they use > less honey during winter. Agreed. I will requeen the last of my buckfast colonies this fall, and then I will be 100% NWC. > Checking the OSU site, I note that they are now selecting for larger > winter clusters in order to facilitate more rapid spring build-up. Ouch! Cognitive whiplash! > Speaking strictly for myself, I have never found the Carniolans to > lack anything in spring build-up. Indeed, if I am the least bit tardy > in my inspections, manipulations, and splits, I get swarms. Yes, I can hear the ticking "time bombs" in each hive from here. I like the "nearly exponential" build-up rate. My apple grower pollination client is very impressed with the difference versus buckfasts. (Yes, I know its not really "exponential", but if you are standing close to an NWC hive in spring, you can hear the joints in the woodenware creaking under the expansion force!) I have no idea what the purpose might be behind breeding out what I view as a key "feature". > Has anyone else noted very large Carniolan clusters with NWC stock? Nope. About 120 of my hives are NWC. By the 2nd week in February, every one had been "looked at" for spring, and all were about what I'd expect. > Are the benefits of even more rapid spring build-up worth the costs > of feeding a larger winter cluster? Uh, depends. If you have pollination to do on something like apples, you might like it. If you have a front-weighted spring nectar flow (like we do in VA, with lots of Tulip Poplar), you certainly will like it. I'm not going to question Sue Colby's judgment on this, but I'd sure like to meet someone who is unhappy with the current rate of build-up, and I'd sure like to see "the math" on how (for example) a 20% larger cluster population makes any significant difference in spring build up. Offhand, I'd guess the intent would be to have more bees feeding larvae and keeping the brood warm so that the initial "brood footprint" can be larger earlier. $10 says that someone wants to make fall splits, and use them as "pollination units" on almonds. I'm going to the Tri-County meeting at OSU's Wooster, OH facility this weekend, maybe Sue will be there. If she is, I'll ask. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 23:18:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: TAX TIME In-Reply-To: <200403041423.i24C6wUt013325@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200403041423.i24C6wUt013325@listserv.albany.edu>, Chuck Norton writes >it would be advantageous >to know of a few specialists, individuals or firms, that are knowledgeable >of our industry. In the EU, we have Value Added Tax (VAT). You pay tax on non-food items and your customers have to pay you VAT which you collect for the Inland Revenue. You set against this the tax you paid to buy things like jars and equipment. If you register (and you have to if the business takes more than a set amount) then as your income is often mostly honey sales, your input VAT is larger than your output VAT - so you claim it back from the Inland Revenue! I was advised to register, even though my income is less than the limit as I am a sideliner. I was not taught this on my business course. I am still thinking about it - you have to do a more regular return which adds to the paper work and there are fines if you are late. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:43:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Lots of dead bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >How do you test for nosema? Is pulling out the gut and checking >for a light honey color reliable enough? Looking at the mid gut is ok for a field test. Putting a sample under a 400 power microscope and looking for the "rice grains* is better. > Does this help control nosema in any significant way, or just >make me feel better? The acid controls the spores as Chris suggests. To sum things up I see Chris as looking at total control of nosema spores. I personally see this as impossable. I find detectable nosema in all feral colonies I check and all beekeepers colonies which do not treat. I am content to simply knock nosema down to a very low level *but* I monitor so levels never get so high I have got hives brown with nosema spores. > Last fall as an experiment I did not treat with Fumidil, but now I notice more poop on and around the hives (and on me) when they started their cleansing flights. Dysentery is not nosema. Without a microscope test you can not tell for sure if what you are seeing is dysentery from poor winter stores (honey type) or from nosema. If I were to make a guess I would guess dysentery if you are seeing *huge amounts* of poop but better to test than guess. Bob Ps. I will be at the Kansas Honey Producers meeting in Emporia, Kansas the next two days. March 5th & 6th. I may or may not be at the Missouri State Beekeepers meeting in Springfield, Missouri the next Saturday. The constant rain (5 in. today)has put me behind so if the rain stops I might have to play catch up on beekeeping work. I never decide this time of year till a day or so before. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:14:57 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: TAX TIME MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Kilty wrote about registering for VAT: >I was advised to register, even though my > income is less than the limit as I am a sideliner. I was not taught this > on my business course. I am still thinking about it - you have to do a > more regular return which adds to the paper work and there are fines if > you are late. James My advice would be to register. The paperwork is a simple quarterly return with just nine totals to fill in. Four will be 'none' if you have not sold anything carrying VAT and one is for acquisitions from 'other EC member states, so is usually none. My return therefore normally consists of four totals: VAT reclaimed on purchases Net VAT to be paid by Customs to me Total value of all sales excluding VAT Total value of purchases excluding VAT Given that you need income and expenses figures for the Inland Revenue anyway, it is just a matter of separating out the VAT content - hardly a very onerous task. I use an Excel spreadsheet and have added one column for VAT. The only complication, if you can call it that, is with apportioning the VAT on fuel. Here you have two choices: Pay a charge and then claim back all VAT on fuel, regardless of 'private' mileage Keep a record of journeys and then claim a proportion bases on business use. I chose the second option as my private mileage is the Land Rover is virtually non-existent. The return takes, literally, just a few minutes each quarter and a payment from Customs arrives in the bank account about two weeks after sending it. Now for the best bit: when you first register you can claim back for the previous three years! That did take me an hour or two - but was time very profitably spent! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:29:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anthony Morgan Subject: Cretan Bee Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am taking an early holiday in western Crete in May and while researching places to visit have come across vague references to a "bee-centre" - being a collection of ancient and modern cretan beekeeping equipment owned/run by Chrestos Zymvragoudakis of Hania/Khania/Chania. Does anyone have any further info that could help - is this a private collection, a museum or what? Cheers Tony ------------------------------------------------------------ Anthony N Morgan, Førsteamanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:36:30 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Honey processing -HACCP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was wondering what is the situation in other countries regarding honey = processing/bottling establishemnts and the HACCP certification. Is it = obligatory in the EU or any other country? Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:34:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: SABA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mike Stoops wrote: > ... but down here in > Alabama it means South Alabama Beekeepers' Association. Actually, at the seminar last weekend, we had yet a third SABA represented! Dick Allen flew in from the Southern Alaska Beekeepers Association! Indeed it was a great day, thanks for the kind words Paul! Speakers were top-notch. Nick Calderone spoke on AFB, then and now. Hopefully New York will join the 21st century and sanction gamma irradiation to sterilize AFB infected equipment in the near future. Wyatt Mangum gave two slide shows, Debris Under a Screened Bottom Board and Queen Cells Up Close and Personal. Wyatt's slides are always phenominal! Tom Seeley gave two very interesting presentations, one on how scout bees hunt for new homes (House Hunting by Scout Bees), and one on the possible return of feral bees, either because bees are learning to better tolerate mites, or mites are becoming less nefarious to bees. Unfortunately his data samples are limited, and the observations have not spanned many years, but he has hopes that honey bees are becomming better able to coexist in a mite infested environment. It was a very inspiring day and all who attended (well at least I) left inspired to get going for this season. Nothing is blooming in these parts yet, but the snow is melting, bare patches of grass are popping out here and there, birds are singing their sprint time tunes, and bees are finally making cleansing flights! Just last week, temperatures broke 40dF for the first time in over 50 days! We were 4 days short of an all-time recore of below 40 degree days! I have been to all but 1 of my yards (5 of 6) and my bees haven't looked this good in the spring in at least 5 years! YAY Spring! Actually, in these parts we're not out of the woods until tax day, but we're being teased by more than just Dave Green! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:04:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: SABA >Tom Seeley gave two very interesting presentations, one on how scout bees hunt for new homes (House Hunting by Scout Bees), and one on the possible return of feral bees, either because bees are learning to better tolerate mites, or mites are becoming less nefarious to bees. Unfortunately his data samples are limited, and the observations have not spanned many years, but he has hopes that honey bees are becomming better able to coexist in a mite infested environment. Back in the 1980's in upstate New York my uncle found a bee tree in the woods behind the farm I grew up on. He located the queen and hived some of the bees. The next year he split the colony by the quick and dirty method of allowing the bees to make their own queen. The third year, I was back in upstate New York, and he showed me how to split the hives that way. He wasn't concerned about finding the queen, just as long as both hives had eggs and brood. The single feral colony soon became eight hives. Then the mites struck, killing them all. My uncle had died and my father was getting on in years and just left the equipment where it was. About 5 or 6 years ago, I was back in New York in October and saw bees coming from one of the old abandoned hives. I treated them with Apistan that year because at the time it seemed everyone with bees was doing that. Since that time they have not been treated.The hive is still alive. Last spring, I found the queen and marked her. The bees have been actively flying a few times since I've been back to New York this spring. >Actually, at the seminar last weekend, we had yet a third SABA represented! Dick Allen flew in from the Southern Alaska Beekeepers Association! Maybe next year the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association could give a door prize to the person from the farthest away SABA that comes to the seminar.... Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:11:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: A late winter tip In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A111663AA8@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This mainly for those who are new to beekeeping and live in the far Northern US and Eastern Canada on this list. Now is near the time to feed your bees either candy or sugar to get them through the time that brood starts and they can forage. If the bees are at or near the top frame they will need to be fed even if the hives are still heavy with honey. The problem is the honey is not over the colony but below or around it. We had a poor honey season this year in many places in the North, a perfect situation for spring starvation. In many parts of the North in late winter/early spring you can get some warm days followed by a long stretch of extreme cold. Many years ago in late March I left to attend a wedding. All my colonies were doing exceptionally well. Heavy and lots of bees all over the top frames. When I left we had a cold snap that lasted a week or so. On my return, in two colonies, I found dead bees surrounded by honey stores. They could not get to the honey because they were warming the brood and did not go the few inches on either side to the stores. Now, every year, I put a block of candy over the broodnest so if there is a cold snap they do not have to move to get to stores. If the bees are still low, they will not even get to it, but I do not have to worry about them either way. There are plenty of opinions on how to feed, be it candy or dry sugar but most agree to get some extra stores near the broodnest to keep starvation at bay. Candy is nothing more than sugar syrup boiled down to a temp of 242F and poured out on a cookie tray to make a thick sheet (I keep it about 3/8 inch so it fits under the inner cover). Some put dry sugar on the inner cover. Some put candy there. Some put candy or dry sugar on the frames. I fed mine yesterday. All were alive but most were already on the top frames. Only one was still well down. One colony welcomed me effusively. Had to go back for gloves. The others were more dispassionate and took the candy without much fuss. Bees do go for watchbands. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:23:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: A late winter tip MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/5/04 2:08:51 PM, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: << Bees do go for watchbands. >> They SURE do, particularly if they are BLACK cloth like mine. George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:43:20 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-7?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] Honey processing -HACCP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Roger White asked >I was wondering what is the situation in other countries regarding honey processing/bottling establishemnts and the >HACCP certification. Is it obligatory in the EU or any other country? Just got home from a meeting where I gave lessons the whole day. The aim was to work out HACCP certification for 40 beekeepers attending. At the moment I am conducting 4 other courses like this, and there are together about 250 beekeepers on the courses. That is about 8 % of the beekeepers in our country. In Finland it is obligatory for all beekeepers who pack honey for sale. The health officials have not demanded it strongly from the average small beekeepers, but officially they should have it as everyone else who works with food processing. All beekeepers who have their honey houses passed for 'food processing space' must have a HACCP plan for their operation. Also shops are already asking about it from the beekeepers who supply the honey. I am quite sure the packers will start asking it too. Ari Seppala MMM Project Manager Finnish Beekeepers' Association :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:26:33 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: TAX TIME In-Reply-To: <004001c40281$d9290f40$aab087d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <004001c40281$d9290f40$aab087d9@oemcomputer>, Peter Edwards writes >Now for the best bit: when you first register you can claim back for the >previous three years! That did take me an hour or two - but was time very >profitably spent! Now that's new to me as well. This certainly makes it worth while!!!! -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 09:38:57 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: TAX TIME MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi James and all > >Now for the best bit: when you first register you can claim back for the > >previous three years! That did take me an hour or two - but was time very > >profitably spent! > Now that's new to me as well. This certainly makes it worth while!!!! > -- Although I'm no tax expert I think you need to exercise a little caution here. If you elect to claim back VAT retrospectively you also have to pay retrospective tax for the same period on any VAT type sales you may have made. This, I believe, would include such things as the sale of used equipment, wax, perhaps even colonies. I suspect that any visiting VAT inspector would expect to see written invoices as evidence of all these transactions. Best wishes Steve Rose :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 04:19:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: haccp In-Reply-To: <200403060501.i264vtNF000219@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Didn't know what HACCP was so looked on the internet via Google. Here's the link I found. For those who don't know HACCP stands for Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point. It's an introduction to a pretty interesting web site and contains info that I took for granted but had not seriously considered. Seems as though pretty soon, if you produce a foodstuff on even a small scale, the feds are going to have their fingers in the production portion of the business. Good or bad, I guess it depends on your outlook. http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/haccp.html Mike, from south central Alabama where the bees are loaded with pollen when landing. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 04:28:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: HACCP certification In-Reply-To: <200403060501.i264vtNF000219@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ari Seppala wrote: Just got home from a meeting where I gave lessons the whole day. The aim was to work out HACCP certification for 40 beekeepers attending. Looking at the HACCP guidelines (quick glance) I wonder what is included in your day long class in order to get certified. Seems like there were a lot of areas to be covered in food preparation and wondered just how many applied to the processing and packaging of honey. Would like to know Mike from south central Alabama, USA. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:03:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: HACCP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some years ago with our commercial group we worked on HACCP programs and l eventually produced a small booklet on the principles as applied to beekeeping (in French). It's really commonsense put onto paper. We had a few conferences on the subject and lots of advice from companies that specialise in setting up these programs. These specialised companies quoted that a medium sized food processing business could spend one year and CAN$50,000 in setting up such a program. It will be forced on most food businesses in one way or another. Some of the larger food stores take preference with suppliers who have a program. I think that there is a generic program for honey packing facilities on the Canadian Food Inspection site. This is a classic example where we, as beekeepers, should be pro-active! Our contamination risks are lower than most food processing facilities and it would be wise to have a small program in place before the governments impose a strict program which is unworkable. One frequently sees a part of these programs in restaurant washrooms - who cleaned what and at what time. The infamous "traceablilty" is part of such a program! Peter who's bees will see daylight in 6 weeks :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 16:29:14 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: TAX TIME MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Steve Rose" wrote: > Although I'm no tax expert I think you need to exercise a little > caution here. If you elect to claim back VAT retrospectively you also > have to pay retrospective tax for the same period on any VAT type > sales you may have made. That is true - but if you have not sold any vattable items (for many beekeepers this will be true) then there is nothing to pay. Even if you had sold some, it is still likely to be well worth paying the VAT on them to be able to reclaim all your input tax back. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:42:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: A late winter tip Comments: To: Bill Truesdell Bill, You had mentioned, "This (is) mainly for those who are new to beekeeping and live in the far Northern US and Eastern Canada on this list..." Frankly, IMO it should be a recommendation across the board, as even experienced old drones can become complacent, and before you can blink your bees are in danger of starvation. We get the warmest days followed by coldest here in the Spring. Blackberry Winter always comes way after the fruit trees bloom, when the blackberry blooms . During such times of cold inclement weather of a week or longer much can be lost very quickly either from complete lack of sufficient winter stores, or as you mentioned the cluster won't leave the brood to get to the stores. Most likely it is the latter in a hive carried over the winter. Last year, 2003, at the end of March with the help of one of our State inspectors I purchased 25 splits with a fall 2002 queen. They were very good strong nucs, five frames each of 75 % capped brood covered with bees with bees. And bees from two more frames shaken in as well- hive bees, nurse bees! It was a warm afternoon with the promise that morning by the weather folks of just a late evening shower brought on by a cold front then more sunny warm weather for at least a week. I was after dark when I got home 35 miles away from the yard where I had set up and left those splits, and a cold wet snow was coming down hard. Six days later, after snow, rain, sleet, freezing rain, and cloudy cold rotten weather in the 30's and low 40's the sun finally came out. Two inches of snow and freezing rain that night made the old logging road to my yard impassable the next day. The freezing rain brought down pine trees and heavy limbs from the hardwoods and the mud was slicker than a, well, it was slick!. I did not wish to bring any honey in deeps or supers onto the yard of the gentleman that I purchased the splits from, and I thought that I would be able to get them two or three full frames of honey the next day. When I could finally walk-in to my yard along the muddy old logging road hand carrying pollen patties and syrup I discovered that I lost 6 nucs and 6 more were so weak that I had to combine them. Lesson learned the hard way! I should have either brought the frames with consent, which was given when I got to the seller's yard, or lacking that gone back that night in the dark in the snow and freezing rain and put on deeps with a frame or two of honey. A lot would have been saved. Bill, your post has great advice for every beekeeper, not for just the inexperienced and those living in the North Woods. Bees need stores to survive, and for their brood to live and grow, without carbohydrates and protein a hive just cannot make it. One other point, the last two years have been hard on our bees, real hard. The US weather has been unusual with more smaller cluster sizes than normal (IMO) due to failed late summer and fall flows resulting in less brood hatched and honey and pollen reserves being less than normal (again IMO). A lot of beekeepers who either waited till late fall to feed or did not feed for whatever reason are now paying the price as from my sources winter losses all over the Mid-Atlantic states are high. Feeding now can help prevent additional losses! Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC 27320 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:50:20 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: TAX TIME MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit : "Steve Rose" . If you elect to claim back VAT retrospectively you also > have to pay retrospective tax for the same period on any VAT type > sales you may have made. This, I believe, would include such things > as the sale of used equipment, wax, perhaps even colonies. I am also no expert on UK tax - but.... If u claim back VAT on your outgoings, u reduce the amount of expences u can then put against income on your tax return. So u pay more income tax. If u claim back 3 years, you have to adjust your last three years income tax returns - more than an hour or so I would think. Also, honey is not subject to VAT but any services u provide are. So you have to pay over VAT charged for collecting swarms from commercial property, lecturing, selling bees. So if u charge a £30 fee, u have to pay over £5.25 as VAT, leaving £24.75. All this means that whether to register depends on what proportion of your income will be subject to VAT, how much VAT u pay on expences - and also on your highest rate of tax. This tends to lessen the benefit. Take a part-time beekeeper earning £2000 pa from honey, £300 pa from fees and nucs, and paying out £500 pa on VATable expences. The £2000 is unaffected. The £300 reduces the VAT recovered on the £500 to £200 x 17.5%= £35. The increase in income tax is £7.70 at 22%, leaving a net benefit from VAT registration of £27.30 pa. The benefit reduces to £21 pa if your highest tax rate is 40% (due to the day job). Filling in the form may be simple but u have to learn another set of rules to calculate input and output VAT. For example, car expences for income tax can be calculated simply at 45p per mile whatever u actually spend on fuel, servicing, insurance, depreciation. VAT is about the VAT u actually pay or charge as shown on receipts / invoices. I do not know exactly how VAT on shared car use is worked out today, or for shared use of your home for buisness purposes - but I do know I was very glad when I was allowed to de-register on retirement from full-time buisness. Of course the larger sums involved for a full-time UK beekeeper may make it much more worthwhile. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:05:42 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] HACCP certification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike asked >Looking at the HACCP guidelines (quick glance) I wonder what is included in your day long class in order to get certified. Seems like there were a lot of areas to be covered in food preparation and wondered just how many applied to the processing and packaging of honey. I think that Peter John Keating said very well in his post about HACCP that > It's really commonsense put onto paper. What we have been doing is to develop guidance to beekeepers to write their own HACCP for the system that they operate. Basic idea is to figure out what mistakes beekeeper can do in order to make the honey not fit for human consumption according to our local laws. At the same time answers are written - how to avoid and what to do if you made a mistake. Main points are - water content ( in order to prevent fermenting) - exclusion of all residues from antibiotics ( Here any residues men that the honey must be destroyed. Actually there is a proposal to make the use of antibiotics illegal in the whole country, the decision comes on few months) - control the heating and the storage temperatures so that the HMF content of honey stays either below 15 ( a standard for good quality Finnish honey sold under special label) or below 40 mg/ kg as a general upper limit - correct label information, for example we must print to every jar ' not recommended for children under 1 year' because of possibility of botulism. Even though there has not been any cases of botulism coming from honey in our country. - Cleaning instructions for the honey house Basic plan for a small beekeeper is about 10 - 15 pages, and he has to fill in every year notes for 3 - 10 pages. The training I am giving now takes about 4 days. I have also had longer courses for about 20 days during a year. The law is the same for all packers, big and small. Here practicly everyone packs at least some honey for sale, and therefore everyone should have HACCP plan. We are not that far yet, but very soon almost all bigger beekeepers have things right. Remember that the small beekeepers average 5 hives ... The canadian haccp plan is for bigger companies and therefore different from ours, but worth taking a look. http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/polstrat/haccp/honmie/honmiee.shtml Ari Central Finland, 6 weeks till bees fly :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 11:38:01 -0600 Reply-To: dobsondomain@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stevennancy Dobson Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 3 Mar 2004 to 4 Mar 2004 (#2004-65) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Greetings one and all, I am brand new to the hobby/business of beekeeping, and I am reading all the posts avidly as you can well imagine. One thing I have not managed to figure out yet is whether I have actually sterilised my equipment correctly or not. I have read several different ideas and wonder are they all correct and it is just a matter of personal preference or am I totally incorrect and need a more experienced bod to guide me along. I have used a butane gas blow torch in all my hives supers and frames (without any innards in them of course) to hopefully sterilise them from any remaining bugs and/or nastys. By the way where I orginate from they spell sterilise with an S even if I do live in Eastern Missouri now. Thanks in advance for any and all assistance guidance or tips. Steve D :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 16:16:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Blue orchard bees I mentioned that I've got some hives in an almond orchard where some batteries (if that's the right word for them)of Blue orchard bees were introduced last year. I was up there today, and the one battery I saw didn't have any bees, but the second had about a dozen of those little hollow bamboo sections with live bees. Here is a picture of a bee leaving it's little home. http://www.pbase.com/image/26667362 My son and I didn't see any of these bees working the almonds, the only bees of this species we found were a few in the immediate vicinity of the one battery, and they were working this weed http://www.pbase.com/image/26667364 Regards to the list Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 20:52:11 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: HACCP certification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Many thanks to the people who commented on HACCP - it looks like all the = beekeeeprs are going to have to get it here, wether large or small. The = big problem is the costs - around 30,000 Cyprus pounds (50,000 Euro) for = an outfit of my size - 500 hives. I don't know where they expect us to = find this sort of cash and when we can expect to see a return on this = investment. In Finland are there any grants from the EU to help with = upgrading to HACCP standard? Our government is vary vague about = everything concerning grants and subsidies that assist business/farming. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:27:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: HACCP certification On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 20:52:11 +0200, Roger White wrote: "The big problem is the costs - around 30,000 Cyprus pounds (50,000 Euro) for an outfit of my size - 500 hives.... In Finland are there any grants from the EU to help with upgrading to HACCP standards?" Here in the USA the Homeland Security/FDA and others has those beekeepers with a separate processing facility, ie. a honey house, requiring registration. I can see the handwritting on the wall for further government requirements such as HACCP. If this holds true then perhaps some of the tobacco buyout funds/money could be used to fund our beekeepers gaining acceptance; then again would we want the cat out of the bag here in the US. Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 23:10:44 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christine Gray Subject: Re: haccp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger said: The big problem is the costs - around 30,000 Cyprus pounds (50,000 Euro) for an outfit of my size - 500 hives. The description given of the scope of HACCP seems quite straight forward - and sensible. The sort of things beekeepers ought to consider even without prompting from the nanny state. What makes the matter expensive? Is it only the large number of employees in a large buisness? Is the cost high worked out per jar of honey produced, for either large or small beekeepers? Here in UK I had to produce a Health & Safety Plan for beekeeping at a school. It seemed a chore - but when I realised that listing all the points were accidents could happen - together with the obvious precautions- was only sensible - and it could be good to have the references on the wall and the medecines / phonenumbers in the cupboard - I was glad to have done it. To wait for an accident to happen would be too late. The cost was only time plus laminating notices to display on walls. So if HACCP helps to keep beekeepers aware of such matters as how to ensure hygiene in the field and honey house, when and how to apply chemicals, and how to store honey so it does not deteriorate, would that be bad? I for one must admit I am not instantly word perfect myself at the moment. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::