From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:44:40 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.5 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E8F48FD2 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKlD012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0403B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 114506 Lines: 2450 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 09:49:37 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-7?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] HACCP certification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Roger White wrote >The big problem is the costs - around 30,000 Cyprus pounds (50,000 Euro) for an outfit of my size - 500 hives. Finland are there any grants from the EU to help with upgrading to HACCP standard? First of all, the price you mentioned is out of proportion. I imagine that this could be an offer from a private company making haccp. It's a good business for them if they have experience with honey. But I have to say that if they have no one with experience of honey it will take lot of learning to understand the process and the critical points. Maybe the money is to gather the information. In Finland it would take few days to make if you sell only honey. Maybe I should fly over to Cyprus to work it out when its too cold here :) . Finnish agriculture has many kind of subsidies as other EU countries and USA. For beekeeping there is no subsidies for investments, but we get support for overwintering from national budget. 12 euro/ hive ( we have to buy sugar with 20 - 25 euros/ hive/ winter). Also we can get development money and this can be used to quality development, for example haccp work. The beekeepers pay 20 - 50 % of the expenses. Ari Central Finland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 08:41:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: HACCP certification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This would be the cost of a specialised company setting up the HACCP program for Superbee Honey Inc. But you should be able to get by with a generic program, where it is available. What not ask the National Honey Board or the two U.S. associations to work on a generic program? That way the costs would be divided by all of the beekeepers. Why not an International generic program strictly for beekeepers who retail? Peter "fair trade for all" > Roger White wrote > >The big problem is the costs - around 30,000 Cyprus pounds (50,000 Euro) for an outfit of my size - 500 hives. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:27:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: HACCP Certification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/03/04 Ari writes: > - exclusion of all residues from antibiotics ( Here any residues men that > the honey must be destroyed. Actually there is a proposal to make the use of > antibiotics illegal in the whole country, the decision comes on few months) > > What will you do about Nosema? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:18:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J" Subject: Spring Beekeeping Seminar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, The Lehigh Valley Beekeepers Association is sponsoring its fifth beekeeping seminar on Saturday, March 27, 2004. Donation for the all day event is $20 in advance or $25 at the door. This includes lunch. It will be held at the Lehigh/Carbon Community College in Schnecksville, PA. The college is located on Rt. 309 five miles north of Interstate 78 as it passes through Allentown in eastern Pennsylvania. Due to its proximity to both I78 and I476 (northeast extension of the PA Turnpike), getting to the seminar is a relatively easy commute. Scheduled time is from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM. For reference, Allentown is approximately one hour north of Philadelphia. There is a full slate of speakers including BeeL's very own, Jim Fisher. If your are like me and believe that Jim Fisher does not exist and is actually an entity representing the collective knowledge of seven other individuals writing under his name, here is your chance to debunk that theory and meet him. In the true Fisher style "jim" will be speaking on two topics: "Bees Got HAIRY Eyeballs!" (Obscure facts about bees, some with practical implications) "Girl Watching 101" (Detailed hive inspections without touching the hives) This alone would be worth the price of admission. However, there's more! Other speakers include: Maryanne Fraiser, Mid-Atlantic Apiculture (MAAREC) and Penn State University Dennis van Englesdorp, PA Dept. of Agriculture-Apiary Inspection Dennis Keeney, 2003 PA Beekeeper of the Year, commercial beekeeper and queen breeder. Herman Dannenhower, commercial beekeeper and comb honey producer. We also have a tentative commitment from Dr. Dewey Caron, University of Delaware, however there may be a scheduling conflict. There will be door prizes, an equipment raffle, and some new beekeeping items on display. Although we do not have any rooms reserved there are an number of hotels that offer reasonable rates within a fifteen minute commute of the college. There are also a number of prime attractions within a reasonable driving distance that could make for an interesting long weekend for those that will be traveling from out of the area. Don't miss this event. Our previous four seminars have been excellent (based on attendee surveys) and we expect nothing less from this one. Registration contact: Dick Olson; olsonrc@enter.net 610-767-5978 (Advanced registration would be greatly appreciated.) You can contact me for additional information, or if you have questions, via email at my personal address: bogansrj@yahoo.com Hope to see you there. Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:35:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Stein Subject: Re: A late winter tip In-Reply-To: <4048B4D0.80709@suscom-maine.net> Bill Truesdell said: >Now is near the time to feed your bees either candy or sugar to get them >through the time that brood starts and they can forage. If the bees are >at or near the top frame they will need to be fed even if the hives are >still heavy with honey. The problem is the honey is not over the colony >but below or around it. I live in western Pennsylvania and wonder at what ambient temperature are the bees able to move honey stores around. I successfully overwintered nine hives and they are still heavy with stores. Several days ago the ambient temperature got up to 75 F. The day before it was in the mid 50's. The bees were really busy bringing in a light tan pollen. I thought the bees would have moved stores to where they needed them since they usually know better than me on how to run their hive. As the hives build up, I realize their requirement for stores will increase and if the weather doesn't cooperate they could be in trouble. Thus my question. Below what ambient temperature would the bees not be able to move stores around? What effect would hive setup have? This year I followed the advice of Glen Stanley that appeared in the November, 2003 issue of the ABJ entitled "Preparing Honey Bee Colonies for a Period of Dormancy and Cold Weather". Most Beekeepers in my area do not wrap their hives as Glen suggested since our weather is not as severe as his is in Des Moines, IA so I did not wrap my two full sized brood chamber hives. I did follow his advice to cover the escape hole in the inner cover with screen and then place a 3/4 inch thick piece of styrofoam between the inner cover and the outer cover. I did follow his advice to create a dead air space under the hive. I also closed off upper entrances and followed his advice to "Acquire two pieces of cedar shingle, about an inch wide and two pieces of lathe 7 1/2 inches long. Place the shingles along the sides of the lower brood chamber (using two brood chambers) with the thick end forward. Place the lathe along the front from each side, so the entrance is in the middle." This middle entrance and a 3/8 x 4 inch opening at the bottom hive entrance were the only ventilation openings my hives had. Last winter I lost almost all of my hives by letting air flow through the hives by leaving an opening at the top of the hives as some suggest here on Bee-L. This winter I had no losses and the weather was similar to the year before. I know that cold doesn't kill bees but I think Glen Stanley's method of overwintering solves the problem of moisture condensing under the inner cover since the styrofoam insulation enables the heat from the winter cluster to keep this area warm enough so that the moist air flows across the inner cover and then down the sides of the hive as it cools off. Right after I had put the middle entrance in last fall I could feel the warm air coming out of that hole. Glen Stanley mentioned in his article that his mid hive vent idea came from Dr. Eric Erickson who, while doing research at the USDA lab in Madison, Wisconsin, concluded "That if there was a vent under the inner cover allowing the humidity to escape, the bees simply create more of it, as a colony requires some humidity, even in cold weather. Such a vent only caused the moist air to freeze as the bees created more. " By following Glen Stanley's method, I think the upper hive body in my hives is warmer than it would be with top of the hive ventilation and thus the bees would be able to access nearby stores better so this might effect the ambient temperature at which the bees can't access stores in nearby frames. Sorry for the long dissertation but I think hive setup is important in determining below what ambient temperature will the bees be unable to access nearby stores. I hope some participants in Bee-L have studied this enough to answer my question. Jim -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jstein@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:20:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: Botulism (was HACCP certification) >...- correct label information, for example we must print to every jar ' not recommended for children under 1 year' because of possibility of botulism. Even though there has not been any cases of botulism coming from honey in our country...< Hallo all, In my recent conversation with microbiologist from our university he categorically said that for Clostridium botulinum spore to be activated is necessary to have temperature of 70 Celsius. So, in unheated honey nor in human organism (children also), spore cannot be activated (even if present). Aleksandar, Macedonia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:43:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: SABA In-Reply-To: <5AF61A7A68D97645B968E3F6F7D069A111663AA8@email.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" On February 5th, we read on BEE-L: >Tom Seeley gave two very interesting presentations, one on how scout bees hunt for new homes (House Hunting by Scout Bees), and one on the possible return of feral bees, either because bees are learning to better tolerate mites, or mites are becoming less nefarious to bees. Unfortunately his data samples are limited, and the observations have not spanned many years, but he has hopes that honey bees are becoming better able to coexist in a mite infested environment. *********** On the first of the above two points, one can access the following web site: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjjan1992.htm Or, of course, dig out the January issue of the 1992 American Bee Journal. How a swarm moves through the air has a simple explanation. *********** On the second of the above two points (better bees or milder mites?), one can read my letter in the September 1999 issue of the American Bee Journal ("Colony survival: A better bee or a milder mite?) Here in the Santa Barbara region we have had a resident population of feral bee colonies for the past several years. Those colonies have mites but persist nevertheless. I am glad to see that others have come to the same conclusions that we formed years ago. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************* * "People have a right to their opinions -- * but that doesn't mean all opinions are of equal value." * * Pot Shot #9108 by Ashleigh Brilliant, used by permission ************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:10:58 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Winter cluster size in New World Carniolan stock Someone pressed forward, and Sue Cobey sent me the following note to answer questions posed by myself and others in prior Bee-L postings. ================================================== Jim, Your note was forwarded to me, as I'm not on the Bee L list, so thought I'd reply directly. Feel free to share this if you like. Yes, I do favor larger winter clusters, but this is given low priority. I find the large clusters are still very conservative, as is the nature of the Carnica race. Proportionally, the smaller clusters eat more as it takes more energy to keep them warm, verses a larger cluster. I am continually amazed how little they do consume, especially when conditions get tough. They have a strong survival strategy and are very sensitive to changes in the environment. Coming from a area of long harsh winters and short seasons, characteristically they shutdown and early and build early. And yes, you need to keep on top of them in spring and provide the space to expand. The queen producers tell me they mate earlier and during marginal weather, compared to Italians. I notice here, I can get fairly pure natural matings early, before the local Italians drones are out. Appreciate the feedback ( pos. and neg. ) and questions, its helpful to know how they are doing in different locations. Sue ================================================== So, the whole "smaller cluster" versus "larger cluster" concern seems to have been based upon a misunderstood understanding of the term "larger". When Dr. Cobey says "larger" she is speaking about a minor relative change as compared to a typical NWC cluster, and not as compared to a typical cluster of Italians, Buckfasts, whatever. While it might seem counter-intuitive that a larger cluster would consume less stores, I can only conclude that my initial impression that I had "very scary small clusters" in my first 4 NWC evaluation colonies might have been justified to some minor extent. The phrase "minimum critical mass" comes to mind. One small warning about spring operations with NWCs is in order. Sue is breaking new ground in the art of understatement in her advice: "you need to keep on top of them in spring and provide the space to expand" The "label instructions" version of this statement would be: a) Insert pollen patty. b) Put on and fill feeder. c) Wait 5 minutes. d) Add extra brood chambers. Quick! WARNING - spring colony population growth can cause brood chambers to pop nails under the force of expansion. Use glue AND screws on all NWC brood chambers. I'm only exaggerating a little bit here. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:24:05 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Persistant Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Persistent& All, >Those >colonies have mites but persist nevertheless. > > I am glad to see that others have come to the same conclusions >that we formed years ago. > Why are we not working with those particular bee strains? Adrian, if you can send some queens my way, I would love to obtain a few of those queens to try up here and see how they perform for me. . . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ Caucasian Bee Keeper, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ _________________________________________________________________ Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:43:58 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] HACCP Certification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit chris asked about my comment: > > - exclusion of all residues from antibiotics ( Here any residues men that > > the honey must be destroyed. Actually there is a proposal to make the use of > > antibiotics illegal in the whole country, the decision comes on few months) > > > > > What will you do about Nosema? To treat with fumidil B is legal at the moment, but very few people do. I imagine less than 1 % of hives are treated annually. I personally treated last time 1986. We do make evaluations of spores every now and then. The amounts change from year to year. Some years we find almost nothing. At some years we can see the affect on some colonies. All commercial beekeepers I know don't treat because they have not seen return of their investment. Or they just want to avoid residues. A few beekeepers have expressed in the past month fear of loosing the possibility of treating with antibiotics. No one of them mentioned nosema as a problem. Use of antibiotics in apiculture is already illegal in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Germany as far as I know. When someone reports problems with nosema, I recommend gas treatment with acetic acid to all frames. Many beekeepers do this as a normal standard work. It is considered as one of the standards of good beekeeping practice. This also works against European faulbrood. Also the beekeeper should change the queens to other strain. Ari Central Finland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 08:10:01 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] Botulism (was HACCP certification) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Aleksandar wrote > In my recent conversation with microbiologist from our university he > categorically said that for Clostridium botulinum spore to be activated is > necessary to have temperature of 70 Celsius. > > So, in unheated honey nor in human organism (children also), spore cannot > be activated (even if present). Dear Aleksandar, your microbiologist has mixed up facts. Only active bacteria deactivate by heating in less than 100 decrees C. The spores are a different thing. To kill them you need to raise the temperature for about 120 C for at least 15 minutes or to 100 C to about 6 hours. There is no way to heat honey spore free and call it honey afterwards. C. botulinum is a main threat in canned foods, That's why you have to heat it so much after closing the tins. We know quite a bit more about C. botulinum as there is a lady Mari Nevas in Finland who has been making her doctoral thesis about its prevalence in honey for the past 4 years. The results say at the moment roughly that you can find spores from 10 % in Finland and Norway and 30 % of honey samples in Denmark. She works with pcr detection. One interesting point is a tendency that there is less spores in extracted honey than in comb honey. The process of extraction + normal filtering to remove visible wax particles removes some bacteria. But only a bit. Looking at her data between 10 - 30 %. Ari Central Finland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 06:31:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Botulism (was HACCP certification) In-Reply-To: <200403090120.i28NAUn9009666@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aleksandar Mihajlovski wrote: > In my recent conversation with microbiologist from our university he > categorically said that for Clostridium botulinum spore to be activated is > necessary to have temperature of 70 Celsius. > > So, in unheated honey nor in human organism (children also), spore cannot > be activated (even if present). http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~ebam/bam-17.html Plus a lot in the archives. Good info on botulism including infant botulism. Not one word about any temperature needed for activation. Instead, lots about it being able to thrive at low temperatures, including refrigeration. Children below 1 year old do not have a mature digestive system so the spores can produce toxin in their guts. Honey, along with a lot of other foods, can contain the spores which produce toxin, so it is not a good idea to feed them anything (other than breast milk) that is not processed to kill the spores. Common sense. We can handle the spores. It is the toxin produced in food that can kill us. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:47:48 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lennard Pisa Subject: m. mellifera in Greenland Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear all, does anyone have current news on the mellifera mellifera colonies that were moved to Greenland? regards, Lennard _________________________________________________________________ MSN Search, for accurate results! http://search.msn.nl :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:24:56 +0100 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: m. mellifera in Greenland In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Subject: [BEE-L] m. mellifera in Greenland > > > Dear all, > > does anyone have current news on the mellifera mellifera colonies > that were > moved to Greenland? Try to e-mail dbf@biavl.dk and ask there. They were/are the most reliable source for this because the project was maintained there. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. With integrated update facility hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software since 1997 soon expanding to version 8 home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:44:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig@NETZERO.COM Subject: Re: A late winter tip Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I think cold kills bees but clusters can take significant cold. A few days ago, the temperature was in the 50's F and bees were flying. By the late afternoon, the temperatures dropped into the 40's and there were a lot of hypothermic bees on the concrete patio. I decided to try an experiment: I collected some 60 of those motionless, hypothermic bees into a plastic can, put a screen lid on, and brought them into the warmth of the house. Within minutes, 80% of the bees were re-activated (some more active than others). I fed them honey with a toothpick; they fed eagerly. By next morning, only 20% of the bees were still alive. These were strong enough to fly back to their hives. Perhaps this has been evaluated and there's a scientific explanation. For sure, some of the dead bees were on their last wings and about to die when they took that one last flight. But I also think that cold could have killed or weakened some of them enough to kill. By analogy, the bees in the outer shell of a cluster - especially on the bottom of a cluster - surrounded by very cold can be weakened and killed. If strong enough, the cluster will survive and thrive but I think extreme cold kills individual bees. I think how were control the hive dynamics by providing insulation here and ventilation elsewhere moderates the bees' atmosphere but, to a large extent, it's a balancing act based on the local conditions and the state of the colony. I'd like any insights into this phenomenon. Waldemar Long Island, NY ============================= >>I know that cold doesn't kill bees but I think Glen Stanley's method of overwintering solves the problem of moisture condensing under the inner cover since the styrofoam insulation enables the heat from the winter cluster to keep this area warm enough so that the moist air flows across the inner cover and then down the sides of the hive as it cools off. Right after I had put the middle entrance in last fall I could feel the warm air coming out of that hole. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:06:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: A late winter tip In-Reply-To: <20040309.104431.524.1196038@webmail10.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:44 PM 3/9/2004, you wrote: >By analogy, the bees in the outer shell of a cluster - especially on the >bottom of a cluster - surrounded by very cold can be weakened and killed. I'd say this likely is a true statement. In most hives outdoors, there are always a good number of dead bees inside the hive come late winter/early spring. Most of them have fallen to the bottom board, but there are usually a few on the comb, often separated from where the cluster is now. By contrast, while my indoor observation hive did cluster, shut down brood production, and did not leave the hive on cold days, etc. as I would expect with a normal hive. There were no dead bees at the bottom or on the comb. (There were 2 dead on the bottom after the longest cold spell). Several years ago when I had first started beekeeping, I got my first swarm call. I got there at dusk on a rather cool evening. Several missed the box the swarm was shaken into and eventually stopped moving. Not knowing any better I assumed they were dead and took the majority in the hive away (it was likely in the 50's by this time). The next day the homeowner called again, they found a baseball sized cluster at the same spot. The chilled bees had apparently woken up as I didn't see any on the ground anymore. Another story.. I had given a customer a jar of bees for apitherapy (ms). I had given him instructions how to best keep the bees (cool location, feeding etc.). Based on the material on the web I expected him every 2-3 weeks because 100-200 bees in a jars aren't supposed to live terribly long. Over 3 months later he shows up again. The bees had survived in a jar for over 3 months being feed a small amount of honey each day. Much longer than I would have ever guessed. Granted they were rather lethargic near the end. I don't know of any significant research on this specifically (something like the LD-50 of a lone honeybee due to temperature), nor any good research on clustersize vs cold and wintering ability (optimal cluster size by breed perhaps). Obviously some breeds (NWC for example) do better than italians with the same cluster size I would guess in part because they raise less brood though the winter (or none at all). Brood rearing significantly increases the honey consumption. Amount of pollen in the hive has also been linked to success wintering in one study I did see. I'd expect NWC to have a small advantage there too since they don't consume as much raising brood during the winter. A lot more study could be done in these areas, but they take lots of time, often have too many variables to effectively control, and there is rarely any money for these things. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:17:29 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Spring Beekeeping Seminar - Hairy Eyeballs In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > "Bees Got HAIRY Eyeballs!" Have a look at: http://www.pbase.com/image/23838388/original Not wanting to steal any of Jim's thunder....... Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:18:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: A late winter tip In-Reply-To: <20040309.104431.524.1196038@webmail10.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I think cold kills bees but clusters can take > significant cold. So do I. From all those discussions, some books and my tiny experience, "cold does not kill bees" is a false truth. Of course, cold does not kill the cluster as long as bees can regulate temperature for a mass critic (namely they have sufficient store, strengh, population, adequate ventilation, and so on). In other words, cold does not kill bees as long as they can overcome all stress factors induced by cold. It is just a way to focus on key factors instead of the original cause since we can still not master weather. Within minutes, 80% of the > bees were re-activated (some more active than > others). I fed them honey with a toothpick; they > fed eagerly. By next morning, only 20% of the bees > were still alive... > I'd like any insights into this phenomenon. I had similar experience with bees picked up in the snow and warmed in the car. They were quicly buzzing on the window to go back to the hive. My wife says I am a kind of "odd bee huger". With regard to the top isolation set up and low entrance ventilation, if I understood it well, it looks very similar to overwintering set up in UK as far as only the top box is considered. Am I mistaken ? Hervé Yahoo! Mail : votre e-mail personnel et gratuit qui vous suit partout ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Dialoguez en direct avec vos amis grâce à Yahoo! Messenger !Téléchargez Yahoo! Messenger sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:01:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: A late winter tip MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Thus my question. Below what > ambient temperature would the bees not be able to move stores around? Depends how ambient ambient is. Recently on a cold bright day with snow on the ground I took the lid off a double brood chamber colony expecting to see a tight cluster in the bottom box. Instead I found about 50 or so bees working in the top box, as surprised to see me as I was them. While it was close to freezing outside, and the hive has an open mesh floor with a foot drop beneath it, there must have bees enough solar radiation heating the box to allow the bees to break cluster and forage within the hive. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:10:35 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: HACCP certification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hadn't heard of this until the recent thread. This evening I called at our local baker (who sells my honey) and I asked him about it. He showed me his. Hand-written on a side and a half of A4 it was divided into two columns. On the left was a list of potential problems. On the right was the corresponding avoiding action. He had shown it to the Environmental Health Officer whose only criticism was that Graham had gone into too much detail. People won't remember fine details but they may remember and heed broad principles. He is happy with the system and it only took him a couple of hours to do. He offered to help me do one if required. So its no very big deal. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:40:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BeeGuy Subject: Michigan State ANR Bee Program The ANR beekeeeping program will be held at the Kellogg Center, Michigan State University, March 12 to 13, 2004 (Friday and Saturday). The program will cover a wide range of beekeeping topics. This will be an extensive two-day workshop for beginners as well as experienced beekeepers. Beginners will learn about hive construction, package bee installation, spring/fall management, honey harvest, honey house setup, marking, regulations, disease control and queen rearing. Advanced session has a range of topics including mite control, economics of beekeeping and spectacular honey bee photographs. Speakers include Dr. Tom Webster, Kentucky State University, Dr. Larry Connor, an Michigan State University alumnus, and Drs Roger Hoopingarner and Zachary Huang, both of Michigan State University. Registration is at the door and is $20 for members and $25 for non-members ($10 for spouse). For more information, please contact: Zachary Huang, bees@msu.edu. Detailed program, directions to Kellogg Center, and other info are available at http://cyberbee.msu.edu/anr/ Zachary Huang MSU :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:47:42 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig@NETZERO.COM Subject: Re: A late winter tip Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I was going to use commercial insulation but an old beekeeper gave me a good insulation tip last year. He said to place a newspaper or two over the inner cover. So, for this past winter, I placed a small piece of #8 screen over the inner hole (to keep the bees from getting at the newspaper) and put a 1/4"(~6,35mm) thick stick that reached from the inner cover hole to its edge (a ventilation channel). Then, I put 2 newspapers over thus prepared inner cover and replaced the outer cover. It took 2 minutes per hive. I checked the hives on nice days this winter. As I was removing the newspapers, I felt warmth between the inner cover and the newspapers (they make good insulators). The bottom of the inner covers was very dry and free of mold (the newspapers absorbed excess moisture from the hives). The clusters appeared to be well-dispositioned (stress-free). I might add that the local newspaper here is Newsday and it's about 1/2" thick. Two Newsdays, laid side by side, fit nicely over the inner covers. Waldemar Long Island, NY ======================= >>With regard to the top isolation set up and low entrance ventilation, if I understood it well, it looks very similar to overwintering set up in UK as far as only the top box is considered. Am I mistaken ? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 05:02:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: Re: Botulism (was HACCP certification) Ari wrote: > Dear Aleksandar, your microbiologist has mixed up facts. Only active > bacteria deactivate by heating in less than 100 decrees C.< No, the microbiologist was categoric and clear about activation, not deactivation. (Or we all would be dead long ago!) For the source of infant botulism, premise is declared that it: "results from growth and toxin production by C. botulinum within the intestinal tract of infants rather than from ingestion of preformed toxin" (http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~ebam/bam-17.html). But it is obvious that everybody believes in this "truth" by deduction only because now there is not any other prove that this is actually happen. Since 1976 when botulism in infants was documented and link with honey was established, on every reported case EVERY mother is asked wheter she EVER fed the infant with honey - answer was Yes in 15% of all cases (in USA) (http://www.epi.hss.state.ak.us/bulletins/docs/b1987_10.htm). For the rest of 85%, source for this infant's botulism remains unknown. So small honey positive percent inevitably invite logic: what if even in those 15%, source is not honey? (Or: spores instead of preformed toxin) My point is that is not scinetifically justified to put "NOT for infants" label on honey! What we will do with this fact: "It is clear that many infants who are diagnosed with infantile botulism are primarily breast-fed." (http://home.coqui.net/myrna/botu.htm) Can we recommend not to breast-fed infants? Other side of this medal is fact that many, many infants are fed with honey and never had symptoms of botulsm. In some Istern countries (according to Mladenov) in fact, honey is regularly used - on breast, when babyes refuse to feed from their mothers breasts. Aleksandar, Macedonia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:59:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Botulism (was HACCP certification) In-Reply-To: <200403101003.i2AA30fH029925@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aleksandar Mihajlovski wrote: > For the source of infant botulism, premise is declared that it: "results > from growth and toxin production by C. botulinum within the intestinal > tract of infants rather than from ingestion of preformed toxin" > (http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~ebam/bam-17.html). > > But it is obvious that everybody believes in this "truth" by deduction only > because now there is not any other prove that this is actually happen. This issue has been around and discussed at length (see the archives). I think the key is that infant botulism is not the same as adult botulism poisoning. (See the link above.) An infant can recover and often displays symptoms that are easily mis-diagnosed by a parent. The toxin is produced in the infant, not in the food eaten, as with an adult. In the case of an adult, it often is fatal. We do not see children dying from infant botulism so think there is no problem. Two different symptoms with two different mechanisms but the same name. I agree the liable may be a bit threatening and that honey may not be the source in all cases, but it can be. Is it really that big of an issue if there is a slight probability that a child could be harmed? The issue has been with us for years and does not seem to cause any problem with sales. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:18:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Winter cluster size in New World Carniolan stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim, Sue & All, I guess I will add feedback for Sue as she took the time to reply through Jim to the list. What I am about to say is only my opinion which will know doubt be different than many on the list. Cluster size can be too small if one lives in areas of cold winter. That said it is always amazing to watch a small size cluster expand into a boiling over colony. One of the wonders of beekeeping. However if the reaching of peak size is after the main honey flow is over and your business is honey production then a problem exists. Many factors can cause cluster size to be small besides the bee strain. I do not see the small NWC clusters described by many on the list in my NWC. I suppose I might if I did not start preparring for this years honey production at the end of last years production. Many times the general statements said on BEE-L are simply too general and all beekeeping is local. In my area I want to see bees covering at least five frames the first inspection in spring in my NWC. When I see a softball size cluster I figure I failed in preperation last fall or a problem exists in the colony *or* for some reason the queen simply did not raise the proper amount of young last fall to winter the way I like. I usually mark the hive for further queen evaluation if all other hives in the yard did as expected. I expect my Italians to cover around seven to nine frames at first serious inspection. I have got Russians and NWC which winter similar to the Italians when fall preperation is similar but normally they winter in smaller clusters. If proper fall preperation was done correctly all colonies should emerge from winter in the north in similar condition as most old bees should be gone by the late February inspection in Missouri and *only the bees raised last fall by the queen for the sole purpose of wintering should be left.* Suicide bees are common in spring and all through winter. An indepth converstation on suicide bees took place last winter between myself and one of the largest beekeepers in the world. Do older bees fly out too far in late fall knowing they will not have enough reserve honey to make the return flight on purpose? Do old bees simply fly out the first semi warm day to freeze in the snow to conserve honey stores for the young bees in the colony? We think they do and is simply natures way of helping the colony to conserve stores & survive. What do others think? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. Marla Spivak's hygienic queens offspring fly at least an hour before all other bees I have used in the U.S.. A fact noted by myself and owners of orchards we have done pollination for. I can not help think Marla has selected for the trait. I find the early flying a plus for beekeepers doing pollination. Perhaps the NWC could be selected for early flying. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:40:57 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Botulism (was HACCP certification) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aleksandar Mihajlovski wrote > No, the microbiologist was categoric and clear about activation, not > deactivation. (Or we all would be dead long ago!) > > My point is that is not scinetifically justified to put "NOT for infants" > label on honey! First of all, I must apologise for not reading carefully enough. Aleksandar wrote in his first mail about activation of the spore, and answered about deactivating it. But, I still feel there is a good reason to believe that the spores can activate also in low temperatures. Norway has had within 5 years 2 - 3 cases which all have been connected to honey. The spores of same bacteria were found in the honey as found in the sick baby. In my eyes the documentation was quite credible. The honey by the way was imported, not local. Also the warning labels could not have helped as at least two of the mothers were immigrants and not literate in Norwegian. At least one was from Pakistan. Like Aleksadar wrote < In some Istern countries (according to > Mladenov) in fact, honey is regularly used - on breast, when babyes refuse > to feed from their mothers breasts. Not all honey contain spores, and even when it does they do not always germinate and start producing the toxin in the gut. Therefore only very small amount of children get sick when fed with honey. I agree with Aleksandar that there is many other ways for infants to get botulism than honey. Most likely great majority of the cases come from something else than honey. The spores are everywhere. Infant botulism is more common in dry areas where there is lots of dust. As far as I know for example in the USA more in southern states than in the north. As the spores are common in the earth, they are quite common on carrots etc. But young children whose bacterial flora is not well developed are not fed much carrots, and if are not raw. Honey is - unfortunate to the beekeepers - the only foodstuff to be linked to carry the spores that cause the illness to young children. And this is the reasoning why some heath officials demand the warning in label. As far as I know it must be on the label in Norway and Finland and it is recommended (?) in England. EU had some group looking in to this few years ago, but they did not come up with demand to put it on the label for all EU countries. Ari Finland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:30:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Winter cluster size in New World Carniolan stock Bob, Forgive me as I have had no experience with NWC, New World Carniolans. I understand that you said: "In my area I want to see bees covering at least five frames the first inspection in spring in my NWC. When I see a softball size cluster I figure I failed in preparation last fall or a problem exists in the colony *or* for some reason the queen simply did not raise the proper amount of young last fall to winter the way I like..." "I expect my Italians to cover around seven to nine frames at first serious inspection. I have got Russians and NWC which winter similar to the Italians when fall preparation is similar but normally they winter in smaller clusters." Does that mean on a for par (equal) basis that your Italians should have two (2)to four (4) frames more bees and brood than your NWCs at the same given time which is your first real inspection? (1) When is that in reference to say the plum or pear tree bloom in your area? (2) When do the NWCs catch up to the Italians? (3) What are the differences between the two when your main flow starts and what is that particular flow? This really has my curiosity peaked, Thanks, Chuck Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC 27320 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:26:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: A late winter tip >>Last winter I lost almost all of my hives by letting air flow through the hives by leaving an opening at the top of the hives as some suggest here on Bee-L. This winter I had no losses and the weather was similar to the year before. Well, I reall doubt you lost your hives due to a top enterence. Perhaps, mites, or weak into winter with old bees due to drought conditions? Compounded problems maybe? Suggesting that all hives were lost due to a top enterence is silly, sorry, but I have the best sucess with top enterence, and I winter my hives in Manitoba Canada winters. Cold long and harsh. I am one of those who believe strongly in upper enterences, and will argue there benifet. There is more to wintering than just where you locate your enterences. Perhaps your result the next year had little to do with the enternce location, but more on the fresh stocked hives going into winter. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:59:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Winter cluster size in New World Carniolan stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck asks: Does that mean on a for par (equal) basis that your Italians should have two (2)to four (4) frames more bees and brood than your NWCs at the same given time which is your first real inspection? My Italians always come out of winter with bigger clusters. Although rare I also see at times a comparable cluster with other strains. (1) When is that in reference to say the plum or pear tree bloom in your area? A month ahead of fruit bloom. (2) When do the NWCs catch up to the Italians? I always prefered the Italians which can be seen by going back to when I first posted on BEE-L an rereading old posts. As a general rule I can make an extra super of honey by using Italians. The italian bee has always been the bee of choice for the majority of commercial beekeepers. I am not an expert by any means on NWC. Perhaps certain lines do out produce the Italians. The NWC lines and NWC hybrids I have tried have not. I know George I. swears by the NWC *but* they are all he has used for decades. I try many lines. I plan on picking up some queens from a friend in Georgia to evaluate in hives in Missouri this spring. They are the results of almost a decade of his queen rearing selection and crossing with II breeder queens. (3) What are the differences between the two when your main flow starts and what is that particular flow? The following only applies to my area and perhaps your area would produce different results with the two strains of bees. Our main flow is from Clover. Before the main flow NWC will shut down egg laying during blackberry winter. If you figure a week lost egg laying then and the Italians expolding earlier in the season combined with a larger cluster in spring you end up with more foragers at the start of the honey flow with the Italians . With proper preparing for the main honey flow I can get the most out of about any strain but the Italians I use are very prolific and respond to stimuli better than other strains I have used. I have used a carniolan/Italian cross which I am happy with and installed around fifty of those last year out of necessity (only queens I could get at the time) but they can not hold a candle to the Italians I have used for years as far as honey production and being prolific. At times I get and try a few queens from other beekeepers from their queen shipments. Many queen breeders queens vary greatly from queen to queen. One is prolific and one is not. One uses a bunch of propolis and the next does not. One is swarmy and the next is not. One point which I like about the NWC line is that the queens all are similar which means to me that Sue is working hard to constantly improve the stock. I have seen a big movement to NWC over the last decade. Richard Adee is a big fan of the NWC and I understand Ohio Queen breeders supply his breeder queens. Perhaps if I could try a few of *those* queens I would throw rocks at the production Italians I use. I will admit that I am spending a great deal of time trying to find a bee which will tolerate varroa. Hence the Russian project. My honey production has suffered since I have moved away from using mostly Italians from my favorite queen breeder. If the Russians do not work out for me then I expect I will be back using my favorite line of Italians or perhaps Sue will let me get a few of those NWC queens she provides to Richard. To take a quote from my friend George I: " There are many queen producers in the U.S. but only a handful of queen breeders" George I spent a couple hours doing an interview last week with a beekeeper of age 101 which is still running over a hundred hives. Look for the story in an upcoming bee magazine article. USA Today did an article on the old gentleman last month which I expect many on BEE-L read. The focus of the USA Today article was on his age however over his beekeeping. On our return from eating lunch and walk back to the meeting place the old gentleman leaped a mud puddle to show how agile he still was! He has a valid drivers license and drives daily. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:56:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Hack Subject: Bees - Kissing or fighting? In-Reply-To: <000701c40264$2b213c00$06bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have posted a picture I took yesterday at http://www.pbase.com/image/26790039 Are these two bees fighting, or simply sharing the same food? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bees - Kissing or fighting? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4B5C7B7A; boundary="=======32AEBB5=======" --=======32AEBB5======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4B5C7B7A; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >I have posted a picture I took yesterday at >http://www.pbase.com/image/26790039 >Are these two bees fighting, or simply sharing the same food? >Bob I believe they are having a board of directors meeting...communicating...is what they are doing. Perhaps what they are discussing is how they are going to get rid of the guy shining that light in their eyes. Or maybe they're going over "accounts receivable." :-) Mike --=======32AEBB5=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:54:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bees - Kissing or fighting? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They are not fighting in my opinion. They are greeting or feeding. Bees almost always fight by trying to work the stinger into position. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Hack" To: Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 12:56 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Bees - Kissing or fighting? I have posted a picture I took yesterday at http://www.pbase.com/image/26790039 Are these two bees fighting, or simply sharing the same food? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:47:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Actions and reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ">>Last winter I lost almost all of my hives by letting air flow through the hives by leaving an opening at the top of the hives as some suggest here on Bee-L. This winter I had no losses and the weather was similar to the year before." By no means do I want to be critical of this person's abilities, but this statement reminds me of many 'methods' considered necessary to beekeeping. All to often, a beekeeper has tried something, found it 'works', and then proclaimed it as a tried and true method. All too often part of the 'proof' is that the beekeeper has used the method for 30 years and never had any difficulty with (name your problem). Aaron Morris has a whole list of such items, I think he calls them 'old wives tales'. I think many of these are things that make a beekeeper feel good, and have nothing at all to do with good bee management. Some of my favorites are: 1. A super full of straw on top of a inner cover to overwinter hives. 2. Follower boards to improve ventilation 3. Bottom supering (instead of top supering) to improve honey yields. 4. Slatted Racks to improve ventilation. 5. 'Cedar' wood for additional rot resistance for beekeeping items. (Most old rot resistance beekeeping parts were made of cypress, which was called 'cedar' in the south. Cypress is no longer available, and most wood sold as 'cedar' is really red cedar, which is no more rot resistant than fir or hemlock.) Enough...I can hear the teeth gnashing from here! Yes, your hives lived through the winter without an upper entrance, and died with an upper entrance. But the 'cause and effect' implied is most assuredly not there. Something else changed... A failure to provide an upper entrance for ventilation is a recipe for disaster...sooner or later. (There must be a reason why feral colonies almost always have their brood nest and honey storage area BELOW the entrance.) 6. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:48:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Actions and reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/11/2004 2:11:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, Lloyd@ROSSROUNDS.COM writes: Aaron Morris has a whole list of such items, I think he calls them 'old wives tales'. I think many of these are things that make a beekeeper feel good, and have nothing at all to do with good bee management. Some of my favorites are: 2. Follower boards to improve ventilation I think there is adequate proof that this works, if used properly, to provide ventilation and convection of the warm air rising and the moist air, which condenses being drawn on the outside sides of follower boards. Instead of falling back down on the cluster. Kathy Cox, Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets Northern California, Italian, 22 hives www.kathycox.frankcox.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:22:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrea Desilets Subject: Mass Bee Spring Meeting - April 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Massachusetts Beekeepers’ Association 2004 Spring Meeting Who: Our featured speaker will be Diana Sammataro, of the USDA Carl Hayden Bee Research Center in Tuscon, AZ. Diana will be speaking to us about the “softer side” of mites. In the afternoon, she will discuss current research ongoing at the Hayden Research Center. Also speaking is our own Mass Bee Director Dan Conlon, of Warm Colors Apiary; Dan will be sharing his marketing techniques with us. Bring your notebook! When: Meeting on Saturday, April 3, 2004, Registration starts at 9:00 AM. Where: Coolidge Hall, Topsfield Fairgrounds, Topsfield, MA. We will have commercial exhibitors as well as a raffle and a silent auction to benefit the association. You are asked to bring an item for the Silent Auction (not necessarily bee-related), and are invited to bid on items. The Saturday luncheon will include soup, salads and sandwiches—Lunch must be reserved in advance. There will be juice, coffee and baked goods available Saturday morning. For additional information, see www.massbee.org _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage – 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:30:43 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Actions and reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of Lloyd's old wives tales > 3. Bottom supering (instead of top supering) to improve honey yields. Just to show that areas are different, here in our part of Australia under supering, or bottom supering as you call it, is the norm. Without it we would not get good honey yields. If I over super, or top supering as you call it, then I would not get as much honey as I do by under supering. If I have a very good honey flow then I can put on two supers but here again I under super. What was there first would be a brood chamber, an excluder and a super. Lift the super and put the other/s under on top of the excluder. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:09:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scott Jeffreys Subject: Re: Bottom supering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Here on the Central Coast of California I also lift up the honey super and place the empty one under it. Best done with 2 people - one lifts the honey super and the other puts the empty down, "preferably before tomorrow" is what I say while holding that box of honey. Works good when all one has is foundation left in the warehouse to put on. Bees are forced to work that foundation above the brood and below the honey. Makes pulling the full one easy too, since the burr comb with honey between the super and brood is pre-broken and cleaned up. At least it works for me. We are picking up 150 hives from the almonds next week or so - all are busting full in both boxes. Terrific year! Wish I were pulling out 1,500. Regards, Scott Jeffreys Los Osos, CA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:07:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Stein Subject: Re: Upper Ventilation In-Reply-To: <005101c40790$e33605b0$b2e9d518@newdell> Lloyd Spear said: >">>Last winter I lost almost all of my hives by letting air flow through >the hives by leaving an opening at the top of the hives as some suggest >here on Bee-L. This winter I had no losses and the weather was similar to >the year before." >By no means do I want to be critical of this person's abilities, but this >statement reminds me of many 'methods' considered necessary to >beekeeping. All to often, a beekeeper has tried something, found it >'works', and then proclaimed it as a tried and true method. All too >often part of the 'proof' is that the beekeeper has used the method for >30 years and never had any difficulty with (name your problem). >Yes, your hives lived through the winter without an upper entrance, and >died with an upper entrance. But the 'cause and effect' implied is most >assuredly not there. Something else changed... >A failure to provide an upper entrance for ventilation is a recipe for >disaster...sooner or later. (There must be a reason why feral colonies >almost always have their brood nest and honey storage area BELOW the >entrance.) Thank you for not being too critical. I'm just learning. I told how I followed the advice of Glen Stanley in the Nov., 2003 ABJ and somehow my bees survived. True, this year I feed in the fall a lot more than I did the year before, but none of my hives the year before were devoid of stores at the end of winter. I do feel that something was going on in my hives this year that wasn't the year before. The reason for the upper ventilation I understand, ie. to remove moist air so that you don't have the condensation problem under the inner cover. We had a a cold period this winter where the temperatures went between 0 F and 10 F. Why didn't I have a problem? My bees appear almost as strong now as they were going into winter. Most things except for the amount of stores was about the same--age of queens, disease etc. I can't help but attribute the success of what I did this last winter to the styrofoam insulation between the inner and outer cover and creating a dead air space under the hive. I theorize that the bees were warmer and were able to move around better. Was the heat coming off the cluster sufficient to keep the bottom of the inner cover temperature above the condensation point of the moisture of the air coming off the cluster? At these low ambient temperatures, how much moisture are the bees producing? Are the bees consuming a very small amount of honey at these low temperatures and thus really aren't producing a lot of moisture? I didn't include how I overwintered my bees this year as a statement of some new discovery. I thought it was an important factor in finding an answer to my question of below what ambient temperature will the bees be unable to access nearby stores. (I'll add to that -- on cloudy days to eliminate the effect of the sun on the hives). Maybe someone can explain why all nine of my hives survived this year in spite of my violating the rule of having upper ventilation. Remember that in the article that appeared in the Nov., 2003 ABJ Glen Stanley mentioned that he had 98 - 99 % success with having the ventilation opening under the upper brood chamber while maintaining 100 colonies for the past 30 years in Des Moines, IA. He supports his method with the research of Dr. Eric Erickson at the USDA lab in Madison, Wisconsin. Are their experiences just a lot of BS? Has someone taken them to task and proven them wrong? I haven't seen any letters to the editor in the ABJ since the Glen Stanley article appeared that contradicts what Glen Stanley wrote. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I am just learning how to keep bees. I ask the above questions because of the "an inquiring mind wants to know". Jim -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jstein@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:10:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Dettori Subject: Re: Actions and reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >What was there first would be a brood chamber, an excluder > and a super. Lift the super and put the other/s under on top of the > excluder. Trevor I'm from the U.S. so my english is poor :) Can you please explain this set-up again? Mark :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:42:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Actions and reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 5. 'Cedar' wood for additional rot resistance for beekeeping items. (Most > old rot resistance beekeeping parts were made of cypress, which was called > 'cedar' in the south. Cypress is no longer available, and most wood sold as > 'cedar' is really red cedar, which is no more rot resistant than fir or > hemlock.) Maybe we are talking about a different species of cedar but red cedar also know as aromatic cedar was used as fence post years ago. Some are still in use more than 50 years later. I dont know of any commercially produced woodenware made of red cedar, maybe Lloyd meant western cedar. Marc Studebaker :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:16:39 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Actions and reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >What was there first would be a brood chamber, an excluder > > and a super. Lift the super and put the other/s under on top of the > > excluder. > I'm from the U.S. so my english is poor :) Can you please explain this > set-up again? I have a brood chamber or bottom box or brood chamber may be better descriptions. This is where the queen is confined to by a queen excluder. Then there is a super or box on top of the queen excluder. When that super or box is about half full of honey and there is a honey flow on, I lift this super off, put an empty super or box on top of the queen excluder and then put the half full super on top of the empty one. This is what we call under supering. If the bees are strong and a good flow is anticipated, then I can put two empty supers on top of the queen excluder before placing the half full super back on top. Of course, there is a lid that fits on top. When the top box is full, then a clearer board (escape board) goes under this full super and the honey removed next day. If I had put on only one super, then the unit is now back to two supers high. If the remaining top box is half full or better, then I under super again and the process goes on, hopefully. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:42:18 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Actions and reactions > 1. A super full of straw... > 2. Follower boards... > 3. Bottom supering... > 4. Slatted Racks... > 5. 'Cedar' wood... But can you "cedar" connection here? The connection is that all of the above can be accurately described by even the most cynical beekeeper as at least "can't hurt". As long as a management practice does not actually kill the bees over the short term, there is sure to be someone who will advocate it as the "silver bullet" that, by inductive logic, MUST be the reason for their success. The good news is that bees are not only tolerant of, but can often thrive in the face of not just neglect, but outright abuse. If bees were less adaptive and robust creatures, more beekeepers would learn about and use "statistical confidence" more often. But I must admit that I do not know of any specific rigorous studies that have proven that any of the above do NOT have any positive effect on harvest, colony survival, etc, and there is at least one study underway now that is said to have collected data that might provide support for the use of follower boards, at least in winter (Robert Madsen, of Chief Dull Knife College as mentioned very recently here on Bee-L). If you want to see at how far down the garden path a bright person might be led towards making "the error of causality", one need only consider the experiences of anyone who started keeping bees in the mid-Atlantic states in 2000. Three solid years of severe drought, followed by last year, where spring brought so much rain that many hives were starving in June, and summer brought only more rain. These folks cannot be blamed for having "learned" how to keep bees under conditions that everyone with longer experience would consider "extreme". What "worked" for them in 2000 - 2003 would have been anything but "optimal" in 2004, and none of these years will be a basis for success this year, assuming that we will be "back to normal precipitation". Regardless of how "good" their data and statistics might be, their entire data sample is not just skewed, it is completely warped. Long ago, I played tennis every week with a statistician - when she told me I was only average, she was just being mean. :) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:28:54 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ray Michaud Subject: Re: Actions and reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > 5. 'Cedar' wood for additional rot resistance for beekeeping items. > (Most > > old rot resistance beekeeping parts were made of cypress, which was called > > 'cedar' in the south. ((((Cypress is no longer available,)))and most wood > sold > as > > 'cedar' is really red cedar, which is no more rot resistant than fir or > > hemlock.) > > Rossman Apiaries carries cypress woodenware call 800-333-7677 for a catalog. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:07:28 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig@NETZERO.COM Subject: Re: Upper Ventilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >A failure to provide an upper entrance for ventilation is a recipe for >disaster...sooner or later. (There must be a reason why feral colonies >almost always have their brood nest and honey storage area BELOW the >entrance.) I agree with the need for an upper entrance for ventilation/cleansing flights but have a question about the sentence in parenthesis above: is this a matter of bees' preference or the geometry of some feral housings? I have seen feral colonies build down from the entrance if the entrance was at the 'ceiling' of the chamber. When hiving packages/swarms, they always start at the top. The reason I ask is because I have seen ads in bee magazines for a hive without the bottom entrance. The entrance was in the middle of the hive stack. Has anyone tried this approach? Thanks, Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:20:22 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: waldig@NETZERO.COM Subject: Re: Upper Ventilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I do feel that something was going on in my hives this year that wasn't the year before. The reason for the upper ventilation I understand, ie. to remove moist air so that you don't have the condensation problem under the inner cover. We had a a cold period this winter where the temperatures went between 0 F and 10 F. Why didn't I have a problem? I think the top insulation between the inner and outer covers is crucial in cold climates. Not only does it keep cold condensation from raining down on the cluster below. It creates a more comfortable atmosphere below the inner cover. Through the screened bottoms in my hives, I have seen the cluster packed really tight on the bottom (cold conditions in the lower half of the cluster). But when I removed the outer cover and the insulation, I could feel the warmth emitting from the TOP of the inner cover. When I removed the inner cover, the top of the cluster was fairly loose and bees where going over to adjacent frames (presumably for food). I think bees like this set-up. Some bee books show temperature gradients in the winter hive that support this thinking. The upper entrance is also useful in removing excess CO2 & moisture generated by the bees. Especially, if there is not a screened bottom and the lower entrance is greatly reduced. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:48:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: actions and reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I suspected, my comments have elicited the expected defenses of the 'old wives tales' I listed. As Jim Fischer so wisely pointed out, all of these items (except perhaps, one) are not in any way harmful to bees. Surely, a good thing. However, some do involve the requirement to purchase additional equipment. Indeed, the bee supply catalogs are full of such 'superfluous equipment. I fault the dealers for this, and do not find the argument 'but we get requests all the time' as sufficient reason to sell items that have little or no value. Indeed, in many instances the dealers are (no longer) beekeepers or do not use the equipment in question on their own hives! (I think it is good advice to find a dealer who runs more than a few hives...and use the equipment that he/she does!) That said, some dealers who are not beekeepers go out of their way to be certain that they sell beekeepers equipment that is proven to work well...but how does a beginner/hobbyist identify those dealers?) Yes, Jim, I think you guessed right. Your styrofoam on top of the hive prevented the inner cover from getting cold enough to cause condensation. The added styrofoam, IMHO, is a good idea. The lack of upper ventilation (only a 1/2" space is sufficient) is dangerous. Within the not too distant past the American Bee Journal published research papers where the authors documented controlled studies demonstrating that Slatted Racks and bottom supering did not increase honey production....under the conditions prevailing. ABJ does not have a cumulative index, so I do not have the means to give further references. However, one of the absolutely best ways of drawing foundation in supers is to bottom super (during a flow) under a 1/2 full super of drawn comb, and above a brood nest. And remember...all beekeeping is local, so the best way to keep bees is to get out there and do it! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:13:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Bee entrances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "I have seen feral colonies build down from the entrance if the entrance was at the 'ceiling' of the chamber. When hiving packages/swarms, they always start at the top." Is it possible that feral bees choose their location partially based on being able to construct comb BELOW the entrance? I think so. Without exception, every beehive I have seen in a tree or in a building has had the comb constructed below the entrance. Once, in a dark barn, the comb was totally exposed and ran 10 feet below the entrance, and about 30" wide. Yep, when a swarm or package is hived they start comb at the top and build down. But my guess is that they do that because it is warmer at the top (hot air rising). I often hive swarms in equipment with a generous top (and bottom) opening. They immediately use the top opening as their preferred entrance/exit, and still start drawing comb from the top down. At this time of year my bees only have a top entrance, as the mouse guard and hive debris often block the bottom entrances. When I take off the mouse guards and clean the bottom boards the bees will still use the top entrance. But gradually, over the summer, as the bees fill the top of the brood nest with honey and the brood nest itself moves down, they will change to the bottom entrance and use the top for ventilation. In July/August, when the inner cover is taken off there are a couple of hundred bees on the top bars (immediately back from the top entrance) beating their wings like mad. Presumably to draw air up from the bottom entrance, through the hive, and out. I was just at the Wooster Ohio seminar (700 attendees, at $30 each PLUS lunch) as was the nice guy with the 'new' top entrance hives. He was doing a land office business! Too bad, as his equipment is expensive and $.25 in wedges for the underside of the inner cover does almost the same job. As for setting the brood hive bodies back from one another, this is an old-time commercial beekeeper trick. Our largest in the area (about 1200 hives) runs three deeps as a brood chamber and in mid to late May the third will be set back about an inch. By mid-June, that is the preferred entrance/exit. Again, it provides an 'almost' upper entrance for no additional cost. In October, the three hive bodies are again aligned and a top entrance is created for the winter. Hives without a bottom entrance will work just fine, but how does one super if the entrance is at the 'top'? Unless the beekeeper adds all the supers at once, the constantly changing location of the 'top' will reduce production. Creating an upper entrance below the top may be the best solution of all. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 08:45:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Hack Subject: Re: Upper Ventilation In-Reply-To: <20040313.070801.10325.647863@webmail14.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >A failure to provide an upper entrance for ventilation is a recipe for > >disaster...sooner or later. (There must be a reason why feral colonies > >almost always have their brood nest and honey storage area BELOW the > >entrance.) > > I agree with the need for an upper entrance for > ventilation/cleansing flights but have a question about the > sentence in parenthesis above: is this a matter of bees' > preference or the geometry of some feral housings? I have seen > feral colonies build down from the entrance if the entrance was > at the 'ceiling' of the chamber. When hiving packages/swarms, > they always start at the top. Maybe feral colonies usually build down from the opening is because when an natural opening occurs in a tree truck, the moisture entering the opening mostly seeps down causing the truck to decay down faster than decay up. Thus only when the bees need more room do they remove the denser incipient decay above the opening? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:58:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Actions and reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Fischer" To: Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 11:42 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Actions and reactions > > These folks cannot be blamed for having "learned" how to keep > bees under conditions that everyone with longer experience > would consider "extreme". What "worked" for them in 2000 - 2003 > would have been anything but "optimal" in 2004, and none of these > years will be a basis for success this year, assuming that we will > be "back to normal precipitation". Regardless of how "good" their > data and statistics might be, their entire data sample is not just > skewed, it is completely warped. Jim and All, Over the years on the Bee-L we have had many threads about different stocks and practices.I have enjoyed reading them , but looked at them with caution. What works well in one environment may not in another. Over time , we work up what works well with the norm in our area. Beekeeping has no magic bullet. It takes time and a lot of observation to get a real understanding of the complexities of beekeeping. I have used cedar and found that the bees liked it. Cedar shrinks over time. Box to box bee space changes. You have a plus and a minus. That holds true with a lot of beekeeping. I'm learning all the time. 36 years with the bees and I have gained a little understanding. More of what I don't know , than what I know. The winter of 2002-2003 I lost 5% of my hives. 2003- 2004 I lost 30%. I did everything the same both years. The one outstanding variable was the fireweed bloom in the fall. It dried up last summer before the bees filled up there winter stores.Good light honey is wonderful winter stores. They got into some aster and pine last fall. Not good honey stores for winter. One must pay attention to what is going on in the hives, ALL the time.We all learn that way. Best Regards Roy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:33:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: topbarguy@HOTMAIL.COM Subject: Re: Upper Ventilation Hi Providing upper ventilation seems to be a curious practice that is contrary to want the bees do naturally. Swarms reject cavities with upper entrances. And the bees will quickly seal up cracks in the lids, etc and not bother plugging up screened bottom boards. I have monitored the amount of moisture produced by my hives using a plexiglass inner cover. You can see the results at: http://fire.prohosting.com/topbargu/ I stopped using any upward ventilation on a few hives several years ago. This year none of my hives have any upward ventilation. I like the results. Wyoming has a dry, cold, windy climate. Dave Cushman, a English beekeeper, has observed the same moisture conditions in his hives. I wonder if the upper ventilation 'rule' might need a little more testing before being repeated so often:>) Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:48:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bee entrances In-Reply-To: <007501c40916$28c69550$b2e9d518@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-188F5092; boundary="=======70256D86=======" --=======70256D86======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-188F5092; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >Without exception, every beehive I have seen in a tree or in a building has >had the comb constructed below the entrance. Once, in a dark barn, the comb >was totally exposed and ran 10 feet below the entrance, and about 30" wide. The last removal I did was in an old stone school house. The colony was located in the wooden addition. The sill had rotted out, and exposed the space between the inner wall and the outer. The bees used this opening as their entrance. The combs rose four feet to where there was framing for a window. They completely filled one section between the studs, and had started on another. This was the nicest removal...even with 10 people, young and old alike watching, no one was stung. The whole job took about two hours from start to finish. The entrance was on the bottom between the first and second section. I posted some pics at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norlandbeekeepers/ Go to Photo section. Then to French Hill Apiaries, Bee Removal. Mike Go to photo section, and then to French Hill Apiaries, and Bee Removal. --=======70256D86=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:07:51 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Upper Ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all > (There must be a reason why feral colonies > almost always have their brood nest and honey storage area BELOW the > entrance.) An archive check will tell you that it is very rare for a feral colony to have it's entrance anywhere near the top of the colony, let alone above it! Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:25:25 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bees - Kissing or fighting? The left-hand Bee tongue is a big clue. The only reason a bee would extend its tongue would be to get (or taste) nectar or water. The flower that the bees are on looks a lot like a crocus, and while crocus are said to provide both pollen and useful nectar, neither bee has much pollen on their bodies or on their legs. So, we have two nectar foragers, and the left one is either "tasting" or "feeding". Perhaps the left-hand bee is "begging" because it is exhausted and hungry or thirsty. If the photo was taken far from the hive, I'd go with this guess. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:32:43 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Upper Ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > (There must be a reason why feral colonies > almost always have their brood nest and honey storage area BELOW the > entrance.) After reading this, I have been thinking about the feral hives that I have boxed out of trees. I would say that in the majority of cases, the entrances are above the nest. Some I recall were about half way. Not sure if our mild climate would make any difference. We need ventilation in our normal hives because of the humidity. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:50:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Upper Ventilation >>Wyoming has a dry, cold, windy climate. Topbarbuy, this is probably the reason why upper enterences arnt as important in your wintering situation. I went to your site, and I have to say I enjoyed it. I found your observations on the bees using condensed water on the plexi glass inner cover interesting. Anyway, we have simular winters in Manitoba Canada, in terms of the cold, but we have alot more snow and a bit of a longer winter than you usually get. This year for example, the snow and wind has fill most of my beeyards with snow, right to the top enterences. Some completely covered over. Not too worried about it though, not like they are under a twelve foot hard snow bank. Most of the covered hives had thawed a air vent out into the snow drift. Top enterences provide me with the insurance to be able to overwinter my bees outside here in Manitoban winters. With only a bottom enterence, covered with snow , which stops all ventalation, all the water vapour created inside the hive cavity by the would simply condence and freeze in the top box. Creating a very deadly situation.... Anyway,snow is a wintering situation I have to deal with, and if you can manage it, it turns to be a great protector from the harsh extreems from old man winter... For all you out there, dont dissmiss upperenterences until you have a good handle on what conditions you actually have to deal with in your wintering climate Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:29:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Upper Ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis & All, Dennis said: I stopped using any upward ventilation on a few hives several years ago. This year none of my hives have any upward ventilation. I like the results. Upper ventilation and past beekeeping history in U.S.: By far the most common top in use in the U.S. is the migratory lid. The migratory lid is used without an inner cover. No provision for an upper ventilation is provided. Many hives are wintered in colder areas of the U.S. by large scale beekeepers without upper ventilation. Many do remove the migratory top and add an inner cover when wrapping in the colder sections of the north to provide upper ventilation. Dr. Furgala was a strong advocate of top ventilation for wintering. He suggested drilling holes in brood boxes and using corks to plug the holes when not in use. Marla Spivak still advocates the same as her mentor advocated. You can get into a loud discussion among beekeepers at meetings over the practice of drilling holes in boxes for ventilation. My own experience: I have seen hives both with and without upper ventilation with moisture in the hive through the years. I have never found moisture in a hive with a moisture absorbing board above the cluster to absorb the moisture. I never used straw above the cluster to absorb moisture myself but have looked at hives of others years ago and found the cluster to be moisture free and the straw damp. We use straw on the farm to absorb moisture in animal barns. Moisture absorbing boards were in common use for years but rare now it seems. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:10:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Upper Ventilation "After reading this, I have been thinking about the feral hives that I have boxed out of trees. I would say that in the majority of cases, the entrances are above the nest. Some I recall were about half way." Me too (not just trees). My last removals were a hive a couple feet down a chimney, a hive under the gas meter box, an oak tree with several entrances both under and over, and between two studs over a garage with an upper entrance, and under the lid of a water meter. So that's 3.5 to 1.5. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::