From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:51:37 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-93.3 required=2.4 tests=AWL,SPF_HELO_PASS, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76D249079 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDKT012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0404E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 22867 Lines: 465 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:30:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Bassett Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update >The problem I have had over the last two years is gettin U.S. queen breeders >to *understand* what the hell a few of us beekeepers are talking about. >Myself and a handful of beekeepers simply want to install and evaluate the >Russian line as imported into the U.S.. > >The truth is not many queen breeders are ABLE to set up a remote site to >produce the Russian/Russian production queen. I ordered mine from the same person you got yours from last year, until you posted about your problems finding straight russians I assumed I was getting straight russians, but it was to late to try and find anything else. One of your previous posts gave me the Idea to put in the mongrel russians, let them go for a couple of months so the droans are russian, get an II russian queen to raise new queens from and let the droans from the mongrel russians mate with these queens, should be straight russian. because the original russian quees will now be replace with straight russians, the next year I hope to get a second different ii russian to mix in. I do realize one bad ii queen could ruin my whole year but worth a try. I don't see where the queen breeders have any incentive to sell straight russians as now you have to buy them every year since you don't have straight bees and as you say how can you evaulate them the way they are. If the queen breeders don't start providing them straight I would feel that the money the govenment spent on this project is a waste. oh well as i get older I get more used to it. thanks for the information. mike bassett :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:05:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Michael & All, You read my posts carefully and you and I are on the same page. You are looking at the situation correctly. The drones you get this year will be next years drone source. I doubt you will get a inferior II queen. We never have. We did have one arrive at the post office dead in the cage once but Glenn Apiairies replaced her right away. Two years is the time it takes to get a Russian line going but if you are dealling totally with hybrids then the Russian/Russian will allude you. I remember talking to you last year by direct email about the Russians (correct me if wrong as I deal with a bunch of email). Keep me posted as to your progress! All indications so far is I will not be happy in the end with the Russian bee. I could write a book about keeping the Italian bee (as could many beekeepers). George I.& Sue Colby could write a book on keeping carniolans (as could others). A handfull of us are taking a look at the mysterious Russian bee (not Italian or carniolan). Maybe Charlie Harper or a few others could write a small handout about the Russian bee ( Manley B. has)but too early for a book! The Russian bee is the first RACE to be introduced *legally* since the bordors were closed in the 1920's. Maybe Michael, Charlie and myself are only curious but the Russian bee is certainly different in many ways than the races I have been working with for over 40 years! Michael said: I don't see where the queen breeders have any incentive to sell straight russians as now you have to buy them every year since you don't have straight bees and as you say how can you evaulate them the way they are. True! But when queen breeders do not offer what the beekeepers are looking for the beekeepers go other places or do the project ourselves. Michael said: If the queen breeders don't start providing them straight I would feel that the money the govenment spent on this project is a waste. YOU ARE SO RIGHT MICHAEL! I think the problem lies with all the gloom & doom put out by beekeepers about the Russian project from the start. Waste of time and money many said! At least the USDA has tried through Russian bees, SMR and several other methods to come up with a varroa resistant bee. Only being honest and realize I have got close friends which are queen breeders I respectfully ask! What have our U.S. queen breeders came up with in the same period of time? Are any even looking for a bee which will tolerate varroa? Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 21:34:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Pollen Bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Spring management, great play used to be made of ensuring that there was not a frame, mostly comprising pollen , restricting the brood nest from expanding sideways. Is it still felt that such a "pollen bar" frame should be moved towards the side of the brood box and replaced with empty frames during the spring build up? Alan Riach Bathgate, Scotland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 20:07:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My Friend Bob Harrison asks, "What have our U.S. queen breeders came up with in the same period of time? Are any even looking for a bee which will tolerate varroa?" To which I give my opinion: What really gets to me, and I know that it gets to you as well since you have said it more than once is that the Russian queen that US queen breeders are producing as production queens simply are not what the USDA- ARS folks have been breeding, they are unchosen crosses not only with Italians, but with every race of bees around or as George Imirie so vividly declares ( I am paraphrasing ) gany lucky old buck in the vicinityh of the producersf open mating yard. Dr. Thomas Rinderer and his team including Charlie Harper have done wonderful carefull painstaking work in producing lines of Varroa resistant Russian queens that is IMHO being compromised by the open mating of Russian daughters, which some are being used/treated as gRussian Breeder Queensh which will produce the queen again which open mates and eventually goes to the buyer who has ten or twelve hives in Wooster, Ohio. Glenn Apiaries produces queens that are instrumentally inseminated from carefully chosen lines, why canft these other folks that are selling "Russian Queens" do the same? All you have to do is mark the drones as they pop out at day 24 and then upon sexual maturity at day 46 or so catch and collect semen. Laidlaw once said that he could build the necessary instrumentation for a hundred bucks; perhaps if we all had our own I. I. equipment and breeding programs we could get the bees with the traits and genetics that we require. The queen breeders selling Russians crosses need to advertise that the bees that the general public are purchasing is a cross, not a truly hybridized Russian bee, not a Russian bee. Folks talking to me are saying that they are buying pure Russians queens and packages; and, they unfortunately believe it! After they have spent their money they do not want to hear from me or others that the bees that they are raising in their back yard are only part Russians. They do not want to listen to calm logical truth about the parentage of their bees. They believe the writing in the advertisement, gRussians". There, Ifve gone and opened another can of worms! Chuck Norton Nortonfs Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 21:27:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pollen Bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Alan & All, Alan said: Is it still felt that such a "pollen bar" frame should be moved towards the side of the brood box and replaced with empty frames during the spring build up? There are many ways to keep bees and the bees usually manage to survive no matter which way the beekeeper manipulates the frames. There is no general rule about the above but if you look at the brood nest and the frames have got a nice circle of pollen around the brood and the hive is strong then I would move the above pollen frame towards the side. I never split the brood nest when cold weather is still around. Even putting a couple frames in the center of the brood nest can split the cluster. If you put a MT drawn frame comb next to a small cluster the queen will expand out when the time is right. We never put a frame with many drone cells in the brood nest. We knew our hives had been looked at while in California (not by us) because when the hives returned and we were doing our spring checks in many hives we found the frames we keep in each hive for natural drone rearing placed in the center of the brood nest. My partner and I NEVER place those frame in the brood nest. The curious had pulled the brood nest comb and had placed the combs back different than we had the comb arranged! The reason we will scream at an employee placing frames so is to me so obvious I am not going to write why. If we are talking about a three frame *made up* nuc then the pollen frame needs to be close to the brood at first. A standard practice is 2 or 3 frames of brood in the nuc center and a pollen frame to one side and a frame of honey to the other side of the inside three. Each beekeeper has his own way of making up nucs and many would surprise the novice. Nucs need to be treated different than an established hive. I personally rework nucs each week for weeks. Especially if the number of *shake* bees was low when the nuc was made up. I certainly have not got all the beekeeping answers! How about a couple lurkers coming on and sharing the way they handle a pollen bound hive. I have seen whole yards so bound with pollen the queen has no place to lay eggs. I have had skids of frames of pollen I have pulled to help the bees get started in spring. Rare but happens. I believe if a nectar flow fails and plenty of pollen is available the bees will hoard pollen. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 21:47:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: 2004 Russian Queen update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, > What have our U.S. queen breeders came up with in the same period of time? > It is up to individuals like us to breed the bees we are looking for, all beekeepers should obtain the knowledge to execute the task. !!! Some people think it should be the job of commercial queen breeders to do this but I think that the Beekeeping community will be better off if beekeepers pick up the ball and start playing ball. In other words beekeepers should act like beekeepers and do the work. Much more can be accomplished if every body was working together. Rearing and mating queens should be common beekeeping practice and simply fundamental beekeeping 101, but new beekeepers are not being encouraged in this manner. I have personally been impressed by the Russian Queen Project even though the queens I have been evaluating are crosses with my queen suppliers own stock. These Russian/cross bees produced more honey last season than other strains used and wintered better than others also. Like you I would like to evaluate the pure Russian in the environment I keep bees in. The only way I can see doing it and afford to do so is by breeding Russians myself by producing Russian daughters from an A.I. breeder queen and mating them with the drones of pure Russian queens that I received from my queen supplier. My supplier gets his breeder queens from Glenn Apiaries and open mates with his stock and has been doing this for three years now. I have to get this A.I. Breeder so the daughters I produce are pure and mate with the last years daughters drones so I have drone material that has wintered in my environment. I have an advantage up here because it is relatively easy for me to isolate mating yards. It has been my experience that it is hard to get all beekeepers to cooperate for the overall good of keeping bees. There are a few here and there that do see the benefits of cooperation but all it takes is one beekeeper in an area that requires cooperation to skew the final results. I am sure that there are production queen producers that would like to produce open mated Russian/Russian queens but realize that trying to would require total cooperation from neighboring apiaries. I see it as not being the individual queen producers fault if he can not produce R/R queens like we would like to obtain. That being the case we must pursue obtaining R/R queens on our own the best way we can. Again I have been so impressed by the Russian/crosses I have used that I plan on rearing and mating R/R queens for myself, this is the only way I can see that I can be sure that I will have R/R queens that are open mated with pure R/R drones. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:58:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Red ants This kind of red ant doesn't seem to bother the bees. A nest has set up shop next to a hive and they dismember and take away bees that have been cleared from the hive. Here are some pictures http://www.pbase.com/image/28466111 http://www.pbase.com/image/28466121 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 18:24:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Subject: Auction In Linden, Michigan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LeavesHi, Just a quick update on the Auction in Linden, Michigan for anyone who may have entertained the idea of going. I called the auctioneer when I found out I didn't have to work tomorrow. He said there are only a couple of smokers and maybe an uncapping knife and a few other smalls. Nothing large-hives, supers, extractors, etc. On another note, is anyone but me planning on attending the Hartland Beekeeping Association session in July? Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 17:08:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 2004 Russian Queen update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: I have personally been impressed by the Russian Queen Project even though the queens I have been evaluating are crosses with my queen suppliers own stock. The nwc/Russian hybrid gets good marks from myself and the California beekeepers but does not carry the varroa tolerance of the Russian/Russian (reported from one of Calif. largest queen breeders testing of the 2003 Russian hybrid). In order for the Russian/Russian bee to skip a varroa treatment or two the whole yard needs to be Russian/Russian. When hives with bees ( non Russian) which are very susceptible to varroa are placed in the same yard then according to Charlie Harper ( fall 2003) and others the Russian/Russian has a hard time maintaining low varroa levels. The reason Charlie H. gives is drifting bees & drones from infested hives. A couple queen breeders are open mating their Russian hybrids with lines of bees which many of us know from experience ( my own experience)simply can not handle a very high varroa mite load (and TM load) which has been making those Russian hybrids unable to handle varroa ( and tracheal mite TM over a long period) without chemical treatment. A point tossed at me over and over by commercial beekeeper friends: They say: "Why would I want to requeen all my hives with a unpredictable hybrid bee with a bad rep for aggressiveness, low honey production and has to be treated as often as my other lines?". When you remove the ability of the Russian bee to survive tracheal mites and varroa without treatment then the attractiveness of the Russian bee fads fast. To sum things up: After one season I can say I do not believe the best honey producing Russian hive last year would come within a super of producing what my average Italian hive would BUT I would trade a super of honey for a bee which did not need to be treated for tracheal mites & varroa and winters cheaply saving me money on winter feed. Hmmm. A few final thoughts on the Russian program. This years breeder queens sent by the Baton Rouge Bee Lab ( as per Charlie Harper) are the last of the imported *never seen before* Russian/Russian line. Next year breeders will come from the best of the best of lines previously sent from the lab in order to fine tune the line ( picked from six yards of Russian/Russian owned by Chalie Harper). In other words a queen breeder which has been getting Russian breeder queens each year for the last six years has the same material to select from as the Baton Rouge Bee lab ( * if* he/she maintained each color line from each year until now) Keith said: These Russian/cross bees produced more honey last season than other strains used and wintered better than others also. It is good to hear a good report on the Russian cross. To be honest Keith I have had plenty of bad feedback from beekeepers which have tried the Russian cross on a small scale. Many beekeepers I respect their opinion have pinched off the heads of many Russian hybrids and requeened after the first year. I have still got mine and will evaluate the Russian/ Russian & Russian/nwc for at least two more seasons. Keith said: Like you I would like to evaluate the pure Russian in the environment I keep bees in. I have never heard of a case of a Russian or Russian cross not wintering well. ( without a doubt the Russian bee takes winter in stride!) The Russian might work into your program and breeding program. I believe the Russian bee comes out of winter on too small a cluster for the commercial beekeeper wanting a huge amount of brood for splits & to make nucs to sell. ( but only my opinion for my area ) The primary difference between the Russian/Russian and the Russian hybrid is in being able to tolerate varroa. A very large California queen breeder has given me 24 hour natural fall drops which would indicate to me the nwc/Russian cross could go two years without a varroa treatment BUT the nwc (New World Carniolan) is not your average bee in most queen producers open breeding drone source. The NWC is a product of years of a closed breeding program. If I was to be forced into using a hybrid my choice would be the Russian queen open mated to nwc drones from a nwc project breeder queen. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::