From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:50:53 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.6 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,NA_DOLLARS,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5518449073 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKlr012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0406A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 154659 Lines: 3464 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:52:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Phil > I made a split which produces queen cells This gives poor control, many queens raised under this method will have been the oldest possible larvae that could be converted. Such queens are no problem for the bees, because they can always supercede later when the urgency is less, but the beekeeper in this situation ends up with a poor quality queen unless he leaves it in situe for several months until it is superceded. > I made a split which produces queen cells and reduce to the best cell, This is also risky... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/qc2.html The above page is one of the oldest on the site (written on a Psion 5 PDA) and is thus about due for a re-write, but the only thing I can find wrong with it is a couple of punctuation errors. > made with four frames of brood minimum having overwintered on two > boxes..Lang. There are implications here... UK conditions are such that any colony that requires to be overwintered in two Langstroth boxes, has a genetic make up that is highly hybridised, which not ideal for the prevailing conditions. There are some indications that virgins are selective to a degree in the males that they actually mate with and that this selectivity increases with the amount of racial difference. Maybe your hybrid queens are rejecting the local drones. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:29:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: poor mating of queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Which treatments for Varroa have you used in the past two years. Any coumaphos? (parizin, checkmite+, asundol etc.) No here in the UK only Apistan/Bavarol is available for chemical treatment, which I used late in October. Regards Phil :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 07:27:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I made a split which produces queen cells > This gives poor control, many queens raised under this method will > have been the oldest possible larvae that could be converted. I have often heard this said, but never seen *any* proof. I have searched for proof to back up this common assertion, even going as far as to pay the IBRA for a search, but with no result. Has *anyone* actually determined and documented the probability of serious ill effects? Or is this an unsubstantiated assumption that keeps being repeated? Much 'bee lore' is often found to be false or only partially true. I suspect that the variety of bee (and/or locale) may have a huge influence on how well this technique works, and can only say, "It works for me". Some of us have used this technique on a commercial basis over a span of years, with reasonable success. I believe that Dave Green is one. I am another. My experience with this technique was that its success is largely dependant on the skill of the beekeeper, since timing and colony condition is crucial to success (see archives for much, much more detail). Such splits made at the wrong time, and under the wrong circumstances can fail, but made properly, they can run around a 90% success rate. We seldom have observed any deficiencies in the queens we obtained by this method either, and the queens seemed to perform -- as far as we could see -- as well as purchased queens or queens obtained by much more laborious or expensive methods. Obviously there can be huge savings in labour and money using this method, and, although there are some drawbacks, there are drawbacks to any method. For a hobbyist or back yard beekeeper, this simple technique can be all that is required. for commercial beekeepers, it can be very handy when queens do not arrive as expected or time is short. >> I made a split which produces queen cells and reduce to the best >> cell... I always let the bees decide that. What do I know? allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 09:14:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter and All, As those around the world read the Mark Winston article I will take his article a step further . The problem as I see it is in proving Imidacloprid is the root of the problem. If Imidacloprid *is* the problem then we are moving into an area bees being effected by 1ppb and less. And as the French & some U.S. beekeepers problems show seriously effected. Through new methods we can now detect even smaller amounts than ppb. Researchers are puzzled that the 1ppb of imidacloprid detected in nectar & pollen could be the root of the problem. After all ppb of known higher toxic chemicals have been found and the bees *seemed* unaffected. I suspect in the U.S. lawsuit the beekeepers will try and prove the amount found is high enough to cause the problems and Bayer will try and prove the opposite. I believe both the American Bee Journal and Bee Culture will cover the lawsuit in detail so we will be able to decide for ourselves. The Mark Winston & Bob Harrison (and many others) question: "What is the problem if the problem is *not* being caused by imidacloprid" Because the evidence I have seen does not represent a "smoking gun" by the past history of toxic problems most including myself & Mark are saying simply : "Are we correct is saying that imidacloprid is the only problem and give up looking for a possible other answer. All of the older beekeepers clearly remember the malady named in all the bee books "disappearing disease". I saw the results first hand. Millions we spent around the world and in the end the cause was never found for sure( hypothesis are around). Perhaps chemical contamination ( perhaps not) was the cause of the "disappearing disease" or as many feel the disappearing disease began to disappear and research went in other directions without fully resolving the issue. The French problem resembles the old "disappearing disease". I remember the problem myself and puzzled many nights over the problem. Certain yards were effected while others were not. Deadouts were picked up and bees replaced. Comb was never found to be the problem but when hives were sent into certain areas the hives dwindled. To be honest beekeepers always suspected a chemical problem but researchers could not detect a *high* enough toxic problem so they looked for a different problem. A couple comments on the Mark Winston article by members of the U.S. beekeepers involved in the Imidacloprid lawsuit speaking through me. Bayer cancelled the meeting and not the U.S. beekeepers. The beekeepers wanted the meeting. Mark left out or did not make clear in his article. Mark did say he has research funded by Bayer :" we have some funding from the company " in a general setting. I do think Mark referring to the U.S. beekeepers which have lost many thousand of hives to the problem and suing Bayer as the "gang of 13" as a poor choice of words and will come back to haunt him. Such comments will only alienate the commercial beekeepers from Mark. Those beekeepers which I have talked to truly believe Imidacloprid is a threat to the beekeeping industry (as do the French beekeepers) and the lawsuit will not only produce compensation but permanently remove imidacloprid from the market. Either way they are entitled to their day in court under U.S. laws and entitled to due respect. I agree with most of Mark's point of view but as always we differ on a couple points such as the above. I am on the outside looking in and have no direct involvement but hopefully the problem will be solved before the widespread loss of hives spreads even farther. I do not receive funding from Bayer (but would not refuse funding for my projects) and am not involved in the pending lawsuit. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:00:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phil Moore wrote: >>The weather has been good here in Shropshire UK... I am surprised that you would describe the weather this year as good! I am just a bit south of you in Stratford-upon-Avon and I would say that the spring has been very poor so far. Perhaps you have fared better. According to my records, during April the temperature only rose above 16C on 3 days and there was significant rainfall on 14 days. In the first 14 days of May we had only 2 days with a maximum above 16C, 9 nights with a minimum below 10C, 8 days with significant rainfall and on 12 days there was complete cloud cover at the time of recording the weather 8-8.30am. Although the second half of May was better, there were cool (or cold!) northerly winds on 8 days and minima of 4C and 5C on the nights of 23rd and 24th - just right to start rape honey granulating in the combs! Despite all this, we have over 100lbs of honey on many colonies, although those in the apple orchards have fared very badly. Field beans are now in full flower and there was a good flow over the weekend - but today there is heavy cloud and rain. Swarming has been exceptionally heavy - more than I have seen since varroa arrived in 1997, which is perhaps a good sign of colony health. However, queens have been slow to mate and a number of colonies split to prevent swarming earlier in May still have no laying queen. I suspect that we will have to re-unite soon, but the extraction of the crop comes first. I shall start queen rearing in July when the weather is more settled (ever hopeful!) and the workload is reduced. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:37:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> I made a split which produces queen cells and reduce to the best > >> cell... > > I always let the bees decide that. What do I know? > > allen > Allen thanks for the reply. The reason I left one cell was that I was concerned about loosing Swarms wiht the first virgin to emerge. Did you have this problem? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 16:36:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Suzanne Geisler Subject: granite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I found that my local stone fabricator throws out lots of great pieces = of granite. They are happy to let me come and poke through their trash. = I found a very large piece to put in front of my garden shed (shinny = side down). I got a great sink cut out to put on an old metal garden = table (shinny side up). I put my beehives on granite too. It's free, = it's beautiful and it's indestructible! Suzanne Geisler Springboro, OH :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:51:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Although the second half of May was better, there were cool (or cold!) > northerly winds on 8 days and minima of 4C and 5C on the nights of 23rd and > 24th - just right to start rape honey granulating in the combs! Wow impressive record keeping, I don't have your level of data but do know that the weather in May was hot enough to produce considerable water loss from the soil, with much more irrigation needed for transplanted crops than expected. No significant rain until yesterday. (April was very wet though) However, > queens have been slow to mate and a number of colonies split to prevent > swarming earlier in May still have no laying queen. I suspect that we will > have to re-unite soon, What do you put this down too? did you make your splits earlier than usual? Perhaps poor drone numbers or not good quenn flying weather? Regards Phil Moore :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:51:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phil is getting the inquisition to find his fault. But do we know how drones choose the places for drone assemblies? Are there necessary physical features? Is it possible Phil's area just does not have a drone assembly area nearby? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 16:28:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Slower Mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was cleaning out my PDA and came across a note from some meeting I attended that says -- apparently coming from Steve Bernard, the Russian queen distributor before Charlie took over -- that the Russian queens take longer to mate than the other strains we know better... 18 days it says here. Thought that might be interesting in light of recent discussions. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 00:40:53 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Imidacloprid update In-Reply-To: <006901c447e2$cff90140$52bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > As those around the world read the Mark Winston > article I will take his > article a step further . I am not as connected in the well-kown scientific communty as you are, just few comments from a small hobbyist beekeeper (in my clumsy groping English). > The problem as I see it is in proving Imidacloprid > is the root of the > problem. I am not sure to understand this root concept. I was under the feeling pesticides intoxication is one more trouble bees have to face. One more, perhaps one too much for numerous colonies in an already low-biodiversity environment (namely the colony has to face intensiv and short nectar and pollen flows alternatively with starving period), already facing pests and treatments. If Imidacloprid *is* the problem then we > are moving into an area > bees being effected by 1ppb and less. In september 2003, a special French commitee released its final report about Risk assessment for bees due to Imidaclopride exposure (http://www.agriculture.gouv.fr/spip/IMG/pdf/rapportfin.pdf ). The first part of this 106 pages study is a complete review and validation of existing studies in the world about imida toxicity tests on bees. The second part is an assessment study with risk calculations via each source (nectar, pollen, etc.) from each major imida treated plant (corn, etc.). Calculations are based on results from validated studies. Imida by-products in plants were also considered when data were available, as far as I understood. Some by-products (olefine) are more toxic for bess than imida itself. And as the > French & some U.S. > beekeepers problems show seriously effected. The French were the first to react at a national level and to pressure politics. But there are claims about imida poisoned bees and debates in other Western Europe countries (Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc.). This geographic spread of the problem has to be taken into account when explaining hives losses and similar symptoms in all those countries. Yet, each area have its own planted patterns using Imidacloprid (Sunflower in France, potatoes in North America for example, so the problem may be more or less intense depending on imadaclopride use, surfaces planted and their particular consequences on bees exposure). > Through new methods we can now detect even smaller > amounts than ppb. > > Researchers are puzzled that the 1ppb of > imidacloprid detected in nectar & > pollen could be the root of the problem. After all > ppb of known higher toxic > chemicals have been found and the bees *seemed* > unaffected. But I think bio-essays (i.e. proboscis extension response) to evaluate sublethal effects (that can lead to medium term disorder in the colony, or weakness that will make wintering a hazardous venture) are very recent (Pham-Delègue, 2002). It seems those bio-essays are not specific enough to be a tool in large field (Pham-Delègue and al, 2002; Tautz and al, 2003). They still have not been use on large scale, if I understood well; they are also time consuming and will certainly not be conducted easely by an "average beekeeper". My point is bees "seemed" unaffected perhaps because we had not the tools to see it. And even if they "seemed" unaffected in laboratory conditions for a short period of time, they can be affected in the field in production conditions and submitted to real other stress factors, IMHO. Scientists try to segregate cause and conditions to satisfy repetitivty criteria; good for the scientific method but bees are exposed to multiple pesticides. Synergetic toxicity can not be taken into account by such approach, without talking about by-products. Does it mean beekeepers have to wait for the science miracle in lab to prove, without any doubt, bees are dying from one pesticide more than from another one ? Or that bees could have passed through the winter if not exposed but exposure was too much for half of them ? > "What is the problem if the problem is *not* being > caused by imidacloprid" I have trouble with that question. It tends to attribute one cause to one consquence. The scheme may be more complicated. > Because the evidence I have seen does not represent > a "smoking gun" by the > past history of toxic problems most including myself > & Mark are saying > simply : > > "Are we correct is saying that imidacloprid is the > only problem and give up > looking for a possible other answer. Ask the question that way also carries the answere. It seems to me no one can resume all trouble to one cause. I would propose other ways to considere the question : "Does imida implies a significant risk for bees and for beekeeping industry ?" And if its use generate more benefits for the society than potential drawbacks for a community, "does imida use internalize all costs ?"; namely who pays its use's consequences ?. Thus, the fact it is the only problem or the root problem is no more the question. The question becomes Is its use acceptable ? > All of the older beekeepers clearly remember the > malady named in all the bee > books "disappearing disease". Several studies showed some pesticides generate a disappearing syndrom at the hive (Bendahou and al, 1999 for cypermethrin; Vandame and al, 1995 for deltamethrin) so that suspecting imida does or other pesticides does not look un-reasonnable. > The French problem resembles the old "disappearing > disease". It sounds more like a widespread problem than a nation limited problem. I do not know if they right or no, but their point about imida is a lot more than a feeling. Good D-day commemorations, Hervé Laval, Canada Pham-Delègue and al, Behavioural methods to assess the effects of pesticides on honey bees, Apidologie 33 (2002) 425-432 Tautz and al, Behavioural performance in adult honey bees is influenced by the temperature experienced during their pupal development, PNAS 100 (2003) 7343-7347 And I am too lazy for the 2 last references but they are listed in the first reference Yahoo! Mail : votre e-mail personnel et gratuit qui vous suit partout ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Dialoguez en direct avec vos amis grâce à Yahoo! Messenger !Téléchargez Yahoo! Messenger sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 23:44:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phil Moore asked: > What do you put this down too? did you make your splits earlier than usual? > Perhaps poor drone numbers or not good quenn flying weather? Many were made much earlier than I would have wished - I am not sure that the word 'usual' can be applied any longer, given the chaotic weather. The first spell of fine weather kick-started brood rearing and the subsequent cool spell seemed to encourage them to build queen cells - even though many were not into the supers. The new queens then emerged during the poor weather when there were few workers flying - let alone drones! However, some colonies tore down the queen cells - I have seen very large numbers this year - only to rebuild them when the weather changed; these should stand a good chance of mating properly. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 23:46:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin Dartington asked: > Is it possible Phil's area just does not have a drone assembly > area nearby? So are you saying that without a drone congregation area queens will not mate properly? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 09:28:34 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Geoff Seers Subject: Fw: Tomato Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Geoff Seers=20 To: queenbee@GIL.COM.AU=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 9:17 AM Subject: Tomato Pollination I have had honeybees pollinate tomatoes in a glasshouse, there was no = outside access so I was feeding them sugar syrup, because there was = nothing else they worked the tomatoes for pollen. To get at this pollen = they tore open the sides of the flowers. We did not continue the experiment as I was frightened they might spread = disease through the 40,000 hydroponic tomatoes in the glasshouse & the = owner was worried by all the dead bees on his concrete floor. I didn't = tell him that with a good Queen laying thousands of eggs a day there are = normally lots of bees dying every day, although when they are scattered = around the paddocks you don't see them. Regards, Geoff Seers :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 19:54:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carol Brooke Subject: Swarming already?!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I am a newbie beekeeper trying to convince a hive to stay where they are. This hive is one that I successfully overwintered from a package I bought last year. It is VERY strong and has been difficult for me to inspect. I did requeen three weeks ago with a purchased queen. The queen was accepted because I did see her walking on the frames. When I dispatched the old queen, there were swarm cells present, which I cut out. I also did a small split and removed 4 frames with brood in various stages and placed those in a separate hive that had died out. I reversed the 2 deeps in the strong hive too. I checked again a week later, and I still had brood in various stages in the strong hive. There were capped swarm cells present again! I cut these out and reversed the deeps again. I also put a shallow super on over an excluder. I checked the strong hive again yesterday... there were swarm cells again! These were cut out and the deeps reversed yet again. This hive has so many bees that it is difficult for me to check. It is hard to check the brood because bees cover the frames so thickly. I am about ready to just let this hive swarm. Is there anything else I should be doing? I don't really want to make any increase. These hives are in my backyard and I really don't desire anymore. The one hive is turning out to be quite a job all by itself! Any advice would be greatly appreciated. TIA Carol Brooke Evansville WI :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 21:50:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Subject: Re: Swarming already?!! You mention that you switched the supers. How are they for room? The main cause of swarming is congestion. Since you also state that the hive is strong, I can only imagine that they are having a hard time accomodating the needs for empty cells for brood, as well as the demands for pollen and honey stores. Your best bet is to add a third deep in between the two bodies. If you anly have a super, throw that in. They probably need room. I found that just trownign a honey super on top does not always do the trick, they tend to keep packign the honey and pollen into the bodies, and preparations for swarming continue. THe other choice is a split...JK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 23:25:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Fw: Tomato Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What kind of "Disease" could they spread? How would it get there in the first place? Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 00:31:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Dettori Subject: Re: checkmite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel N. Swink wrote: > Since there was over 10 gallons of honey left by those two colonies I extracted it from their vacated brood chambers. My question is that since there had been checkmite strips in those chambers in the fall is it now unsafe to consume the honey? > A follow up to Joel's original question. I also treat with checkmite in the late fall. I worry that when I put honey supers on the first of May, there may be a tendancy for bees to bring honey, either fresh or that which they over wintered with, up from the brood boxes into the honey supers to make additional room for brood rearing. If this happens it would seem that contamination is possible. This is so obvious that I assume it was reviewed and found not to be an issue. Would like some thoughts on this. Mark :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 01:43:44 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Imidacloprid update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Harrison wrote: " Researchers are puzzled that the 1ppb of imidacloprid detected in = nectar & pollen could be the root of the problem. After all ppb of known higher = toxic chemicals have been found and the bees *seemed* unaffected." The amounts found last summer in canola following treated potatoes were = above 1 ppb. In wax it was 2 ppb which disturbs me. It also exceeded 2 ppb = in honey and pollen in some samples. If the smoking gun you are looking for is = dead bees at the entrance of a deadout I do not think you will find this with = imidacloprid. I always am reminded of Bayer's own words when marketing imidacloprid as = an ant and termite treatment: imidacloprid kills the colonies by weakening = them and making them more susceptible to disease (slightly paraphrased to avoid = me having to find the exact quote, which is very close). Also from Bob: "What is the problem if the problem is *not* being caused by = imidacloprid" Bayer has now funded about a million Canadian dollars worth of study = here and I am sure it would like to have found something to point to as the = "problem". The syndrome has been documented, and I do not think that I have any mental = blocks against accepting another cause or group of causes, but nothing has been = proposed so far that seems plausible to me. Chris Slade wrote that viruses could be a cause of disappearing bees. I = would like him to know that virus testing was part of the research and did not turn = up anything there. =20 I would like to mention that I have been told that the researchers would = like to follow some of my hives this year as they move from wintering yards to = blueberries to canola and if you have ideas for how to scientifically find "the smoking gun", = then post them. My own thought is some test to determine which comes first, the diseased = brood or the disappearance of adult bees. Herv=E9 Log=E9 wrote: " I was under the feeling pesticides intoxication is one more trouble = bees have to=20 face...." =20 and ".... Or that bees could have passed through the winter if not exposed but exposure was too much for half of them." Both these paragraphs were very well expressed. I would add to his comments on pesticide acceptability for society that = a pesticide with a half life of over a year cannot in my opinion be deemed acceptable. The testing here has always confirmed high residues in the = soil and now shown that these residues are expressed in the succeeding crop years. The French found amounts in untreated sunflowers following = treated sunflowers similar to those in treatment years in some cases, and the = amounts found in New Brunswick in untreated canola following potatoes are = similar to what=20 Cynthia Scott-Dupree found in canola treated with imidacloprid in = Ontario. "But I think bio-essays (i.e. proboscis extension response) to evaluate sublethal effects (that can lead to medium term disorder in the colony, or weakness that will make wintering a hazardous venture) are very recent (Pham-Del=E8gue, 2002). " Thankyou for the reference for this Herve. If it would be possible for = you to summarize the results of this paper, it would be much appreciated by me, = and perhaps others who do not have access to apidologie, or have limited = French. Bayer is very dismissive of some research regarding sublethal effects, = but it is difficult for them to completely dismiss the research by Madame Pham- Delegue, because they have published pictures of her proboscis extension = testing in their booklet on imidacloprid and bees and obvious consider = her=20 credible. Finally, I would like to make an observation after being involved with studies on imidacloprid and bees for a few years now. One problem that = I see is the huge cost involved in every sample (it is about three or four = hundred dollars per sample). With government cutbacks and user pay philosophy = it=20 makes it almost impossible to have research independent of Bayer = funding. It should be possible to determine the ppb in a sample by using an = appropriate short life span test insect instead of mass spectrometers and liquid = chromatographs. So, for example, if you added known amounts of imidacloprid to diluted = honey until you found the LD 50 (lethal dose for 50%) for fruit fly flies kept = on that honey for two days, then why not use fruit flies to test honey samples after = that. Or, maybe larder beetles could be used for pollen samples. Then, if you get = samples that produce a killing dose you could measure the dilution possible to = maintain=20 the killing dose and extrapolate the ppb. In order to produce the most = accurate result, the most highly sensitive organism should be chosen. I believe = that some marine larvae like shrimp and lobsters are very sensitive, but they = don't eat honey or pollen. Perhaps there is a winning science fair project for some = young persons there! Regards Stan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 09:03:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen > > This gives poor control, many queens raised under this method will > > have been the oldest possible larvae that could be converted. > > I have often heard this said, but never seen *any* proof. I cannot give you the detailed references, but I based my assumption on the variation in quality of royal jelly fed to the larvae ,of different caste, at different ages of development (almost hourly variation). I also know from the timing of emergence that some queencells must have been raised from larva at least three days old. Also the number of ovioles that develop in a mature queen (which is linked to the varying larval diet) and hence the potential longevity of laying life of the queen. On top of this... It is often reported that queens under US and Canadian conditions, queens are only good for a single season of laying. By putting these things together, I conclude that queens produced by splitting (that are not replaced by supercedure at a later date) are of poorer quality than those that would have resulted from larvae fed appropriately from the dissolving of the eggshell. > I suspect that the variety of bee (and/or locale) may have a huge influence > on how well this technique works, This may also be part of the equation, but I think that it will only widen the variation within the results rather than being the entire story. > We seldom have observed any deficiencies in the queens we obtained by this > method either, and the queens seemed to perform -- as far as we could see -- > as well as purchased queens or queens obtained by much more laborious or > expensive methods. I could be rude here and make jibes about the quality of commercially reared queens on the American continent, but I am not trying to score points when I say that perhaps you should be looking at the quality control in US queen rearing so that your yardstick is better calibrated :-) > Much 'bee lore' is > often found to be false or only partially true. I agree, all the more reason why these discussions on Bee-L and other lists are so useful, I wish more of the academics and research community would make the effort to contribute to these lists, so that we can dispel some of the myths. The differences between commercial beekeepers and hobby beekeepers are often raised, but to my mind their aims are similar... Maximum yield from minimum labour and effective use of capital. There are some hobby beekeepers (like me) that like to explore the fringes of the craft. The commercial operation may be able to cover loss of quality, and to some extent lesser productivity per hive, by an increase in numbers of colonies. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 09:38:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Robin asks... > But do we know how drones choose the places for drone assemblies? > Are there necessary physical features? Is it possible Phil's area just does not > have a drone assembly area nearby? Nearly forty years ago, when I was less interested in the problem than I am now, I suffered considerable 'ear bending' from Beowulf Cooper, who was at the time excitedly learning about drone assemblies. Some of what he said has filtered into the following documents. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/matingbehaviour.html http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/multiplematings.html http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/avm.html One of the points that I was trying to make about Phil's 'lack of mating' problem is that, this year may well be one of those years when 'Drone Assembly mating ' is rare and thus those hybridised bees and racial types that are not adapted to 'Apiary Vicinity mating' will lose out. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 11:04:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Peter said... > So are you saying that without a drone congregation area queens will not > mate properly? If the queen concerned is of a race or strain that uses drone assembly as it's main mating strategy, then their mating performance and mating frequency will be compromised if it is in an area where AVM is the norm and drone assembly only occurs once every few years. This in one of the main reasons that the purity of breed of the Irish strains of AMM is so high, because the strains brought in from foreign parts could not survive more than a few seasons and those hybrids that did develop did not fare much better... Irish queen mating conditions are wet and cool, worse even than mainland UK, although those in the south of the UK will see weather conditions that favour drone assembly more often than in the north, hence on the south coast of Britain many exotic strains of bee can be bred. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:51:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The reason I left one cell was that I was concerned about loosing > Swarms wiht the first virgin to emerge. Did you have this problem? Well, we have seen swarms from baby nucs with only one cell. If they want to go, they'll go. They'll also often come back. As Winnie-the-Pooh is reported to have said, "You never can tell when it comes to bees". I wouldn't worry about it. Usually a weak hive like a split will stay home. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 07:44:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Imidacloprid update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: > The problem as I see it is in proving Imidacloprid > is the root of the > problem. Herve said: I am not sure to understand this root concept. I was under the feeling pesticides intoxication is one more trouble bees have to face. I am refering to the current lawsuit in U.S. court filed by U.S. beekeepers against the Bayer corp . The whole basis of the current discussion is the U.S. lawsuit pending against Bayer and if imidacloprid is not the whole problem then what is killing bees around the world. Mark Winston points out several possible other reasons in his article which will also be used by Bayer in their defense I am sure. Mark raises the question (as do I) that would bees strong and not effected by mites, constant stress from moving ,viruses and other problems fall prey to a 1ppm dose of Imidacloprid. Most researchers familiar with bees and chemicals say 1ppb is simply to low a number. Bob said: If Imidacloprid *is* the problem then we > are moving into an area > bees being effected by 1ppb and less. The problem *as I understand the problem* is that 1ppb is considered by most involved to be to low to cause the huge hive loss seen across the world. This may be true with some chemicals but maybe not with Imidacloprid. We need to move away from LD50 type effects and look at *sublethal effects* which is a gray area in our current knowledge. We have got technology I am told which can measure a response at 5/10,000 of a microgram per bee. My guess (and only a guess) is the area of sublethal effects will be the area the beekeepers will be talking about. Seperating the common knowledge and putting the focus directly on the chemical Imidacloprid. Herve said: Yet, each area have its own planted patterns using Imidacloprid (Sunflower in France, potatoes in North America for example, so the problem may be more or less intense depending on imadaclopride use, surfaces planted and their particular consequences on bees exposure). First let me say none of us doubt bees are dying. We all want to id the problem. The use of chemicals using Imidacloprid is widespread as said above. In many cases when hives die beekeepers are blaming imidacloprid for lack of another answer. Mark points out in his article a case in which a Canadian beekeeper screamed his bees were killed by use of Imidacloprid when Imidacloprid had not been legally used for 2000 miles nor even registered for canola. Was illegal use going on? Always a possibility. Testing is not cheap so we will never know for sure . Herve said: My point is bees "seemed" unaffected perhaps because we had not the tools to see it. And even if they "seemed" unaffected in laboratory conditions for a short period of time, they can be affected in the field in production conditions and submitted to real other stress factors, IMHO. Excellent point and I agree completely. >Synergetic toxicity can not be taken into account by >such approach, without talking about by-products. Does it mean beekeepers have to wait for the science miracle in lab to prove, without any doubt, bees are dying from one pesticide more than from another one ? Or that bees could have passed through the winter if not exposed but exposure was too much for half of them ? It seems beekeepers around the world are convinced Imidacloprid is the problem and taking action. If they are correct then the dying/dwindeling problem should stop but reports keep coming in of problems in both France and the U.S. I will end with a quote from pg.86 of "The Apple Grower" by Michael Phillips: "Agriculture is deeply indebted to the honey bee. Yet there's tragedy brewing in the hives. The honeybee has been bred for profit to the point where it has become easy prey for VIRUSES AND PARASITIC MITES THAT ARE DESTROYING THE SPECIES. Pesticides take their toll as well. Rudolf Steiners prediction in 1923 that mankind would lose the honeybee in eighty years time is looking ominously correct." I doubt we will lose the honeybee but Steiners prediction of dire problems for beekeepers have certainly been correct in my opinion. In 1923 when the perdiction was made about the only problem facing the beekeeper was foulbrood. I call Michael friend and attended a half day organic apple workshop put on by Michael at the National Small Farm Today trade show & Conference last year. I was surprised by the knowledge Michael had of the current situation being a non beekeeper and we discussed the honey bee and current honeybee situation in great detail. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. I will be doing a hour long beekeeping discussion on Thursday November fourth at the National Small Farm Today Trade Show & Conference but will be at the show all three days to discuss beekeeping problems. November 4-6. Stop by my booth. I will also be at the beautiful Powell Botanical Gardens outside of KC., Missouri on both June 12th & 13th. during their "Big Bugs" promotion. The weekend is devoted to the honeybee. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 12:34:36 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: Slower Mating In-Reply-To: <003d01c44827$b77ccb70$44b85ad1@Nemo> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have incorporated several Russian lines into my motley crew of survivors of chemical -free life... It usually takes at least 3 weeks from a split with mature swarm cells to see eggs and brood, even in good weather This year one hive took 5 weeks, I'd even given up and added brood but a week later there was a pretty queen. Several Italian strains and Buckfasts and feral bees are in the mix, but this characteristic seems pretty dominant. When they start they'll lay like fiends, tho, eggs everywhere! Carolyn in getting-very-dry-again- South Carolina. allen dick wrote: >I was cleaning out my PDA and came across a note ... that the Russian queens take >longer to mate than the other strains we know better... 18 days it says >here... > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:35:07 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean-Marie van Dyck Subject: Re: Imidacloprid update In-Reply-To: <000501c448a0$15ef7b80$28bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Bob, Hervé, Peter and all ! Here some other lighting on the elements of this problem. 1/ Moving effect ? Environmental effect ? An experiment made by a bee-breeder (he is agricultural engineer) touched on his main apiary. In July 2003, he prepared 20 young sister colonies in this apiary. Just before the corn blooming he transport half (10) of these colonies on another apiary with forest, meadows and hedged farmland. Untill February 2004. Same climate. In May, the 10 local colonies all are dead; the 10 moved colonies are increased and make a confortable summer crop. 2/ Varroa and Virus effects ? Environmental effect ? It's the result of an experiment which I made myself last year ... I had four production colonies "not chimically treated against varroa for 3 years" only removing drones brood in the beginning of the year. I had had 2 colonies in a zone "with problem" for a few years. And 2 others in the garden of a friend in a residential zone. This spring, these colonies seemed very different. Both in my friend back-yard gave me a total of 49 kg of honey. In spite of an important load of Varroa. The 2 others ... one colony had died, probably at the beginning of the winter (full with feed but almost no more bees, the queen and an old dead brood on the side). Viruses probably ! Why not the 2 others above? Side effects of small amounts of poison (picograms!!!?)? Products or by-products or degradation products ??? The given (high) half-life is for the main molecule ... and the others ... One does not speak about it any more, but they remain in the ground !!! ... the other hive was populous in Marth, but I found no more queen. Requeened, the new queen who laid in her hive stop laying. I introduced first an emerging brood frame (Dadant) to try to renovate the cluster ... no effect. Then an open brood frame ... the queen lays a half of the side frame and then disappears. A misery, but bees, a lot of bees of nothing! ==== Seems these anecdotes, among tens of others less clear, but real and always in the same direction, speak about themselves. And anecdotes + anecdotes ... it's too much !? Jean-Marie Van Dyck Biochemist - now bee-keeper for more than 50 years. Belgium (EU) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:37:54 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Imidacloprid update In-Reply-To: <000501c448a0$15ef7b80$28bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Mark raises the question (as do I) that would bees > strong and not effected > by mites, constant stress from moving ,viruses and > other problems fall prey > to a 1ppm dose of Imidacloprid. Most researchers > familiar with bees and > chemicals say 1ppb is simply to low a number. Toxicity value, p.51 in the report I refered to (part dedicated to chronic toxicity studies), my free translation : "Studies conducted in Avignon (M47) [the reference] revealed that a the lowest [imidaclopride] concentration in syrup (0,1 ppb), 50% mortality was observed after 10 days, namely after a quantity of 12 pg ingested per bee. In summer studies in Bures-sur- Yvette in 2000 (M33), the lowest tested dose leading to a 20% mortality, is 32000pg/bee/10days in summer (cumulativ quantity : 32 ng)." This not even deals with effects on larvae which shoul be more sensitive. > We need to move away from LD50 type effects and look > at *sublethal effects* > which is a gray area in our current knowledge. Indeed, I really agree. We were dealing only with LD50. Imagine if we took the same approach about H&S standards at work... Using a parabol, instead of counting deads in the street, we now are able to detect trouble when bees come home like junkies or alcoolic in final phase or when they are brushing their inside nose with their teethbrush...or when they look for food in the washing machine instead of the fridge because they are a bit confuse in their odor memory. We progess, definitly. Forgot to mention than those bio-essays are based on the dance language hypothesis, otherwise nobody cares about the fact they dance like bears on frames or like stars. > > My guess (and only a guess) is the area of sublethal > effects will be the > area the beekeepers will be talking about. > Seperating the common knowledge > and putting the focus directly on the chemical > Imidacloprid. > It seems beekeepers around the world are convinced > Imidacloprid is the > problem and taking action. If they are correct then > the dying/dwindeling > problem should stop but reports keep coming in of > problems in both France > and the U.S. Considering the imida. lifespan in Environment and last message about imida values in plants one year after use on a land, I am afraid we will have to be more patient. Moreover, as we agree, imida. is not the only problem although it is certainly a cause of morbidity. Then, after imida. removal from the market, I guess one can only expect a decrease in losses (but what %, I do not have a clue), probably not a straight significant and sudden improvment. Last comment, if people are interested in the French case study, and to bounce on J. Fisher's article in Beeculture, they may considere what some called the double shots effect or the boomerang effect. When you claim for lethal contamination in hives because of nectar and pollen contamination by pesticides, how will your spin doctors explain your honey - or your pollen - is a pure natural healthy product... Hervé www.emelys.com Yahoo! Mail : votre e-mail personnel et gratuit qui vous suit partout ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Dialoguez en direct avec vos amis grâce à Yahoo! Messenger !Téléchargez Yahoo! Messenger sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:39:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Pesticide update In-Reply-To: <20040602173754.21054.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Stan and others asked about an English version of the papers the Herve cited. The proboscis extension response test and its application to pesticides is described in a 2002, 333 page book that can be purchased at -- http://www.toxicologyarena.com/toxicologyarena/books/tox_highlights.htm. The book has lots of chapters on lots of things about bees and environmental chemicals, from pollutants to pesticides to genetically altered plants. Bit pricey, but a unique reference, each chapter by a well experienced researcher. And yes, I co-authored two, and no, I didn't get paid and don't receive any royalties. For those of you in the U.S., the publisher is Taylor and Francis, buy direct. Also, if you Google Dr. James Devillers or Madame (Dr.) Pham- Delegue (the French authors who edited this english language book), you'll find on the web a variety of abstracts, etc. (many in English) about their work. Stan asked for something a high school student can do. Almost anyone can conduct PER tests. The entire protocol is described by Dr. Brian Smith, OSU, at http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/honeybee/pelink/PERprotocol.html The PER test dates to the 1800s. In its simplest form, you capture some bees, cool them in vials on ice. When they are groggy, you slip the business (sting) end of the bee into a straw. Bit of paper tape, and the live bee is stuck in the straw like a kid in a high chair with a seat belt. Be sure that the head is just above the straw with the mouth parts on the outside. When it warms up, the bee will wiggle about, just like your kid in the high chair. A simple tube or syringe system, bit of charcoal for an air filter, and an small aquarium pump make up a dosing system. In essence, you evaporate some of the test material on filter paper (blotter, anything a bit absorbant), put it inside a capsule (syringe body, bit of glass tubing), and puff air through, aimed at the bee. This could as simple as an eye dropper, but a pump works better. Use very low air flow -- idea is to 'waft' the odor into the 'face' of the bee. Ok, to keep the bees in their straws upright, you simply plunk the bottom end of straw into a bit of clay (used as a base). If you wait too long, you have to feed the bees. Trick, keep them hungry, but not starving. When ready to go, you puff the odor at the bee, then imediately bring over on a syringe or small tube a hanging drop of syrup. The bee sees syrup, has just 'smelled' an odor. About 80% of the ladies will pop their mouth parts up to taste -- and having tasted, they are hooked. Do this 3-4 times, and they clearly learn to anticipate the drop of reward after the puff -- Pavlov's salivating dog, all over. You do have to condition (train) the bees so that they only get the food if the puff contains the test odor. No odor, no food. >From then, you can test what odors bees can sense, at what concentrations, as well as the effects of interferrents (exposure to other chemicals, heat, light, cold, its up to your interest or imagination). Be sure to intersperse controls (puffs of air without an odor). Some bees get jumpy, anticipate reward, and give false readings. So do some trained dogs -- why make a choise if the handler can be tricked into feeding you anyway? Cull out these gals that want a reward without making a choice. Be careful that each bee is responding to the odor in the puff and not you or the click of a switch. Quick learners, these little bees. We went to a computer to initiate the puff, but a "blind" can be used -- bit of cardboard with a peep hole, so you can see the bee, but she can't see you. Eventually the conditioning, training wears off -- another topic of study, how fast, how long, and what happens if I periodically re-condition. Again, just like any trained animal. They need to succeed and get the reward. But, don't reward mistakes. If you reward them too much, they get full, happy, and will have little interest. Starve them, and you stress them. They also need to discover something once in a while. A whole afternoon of air puffs without an odor or reward probably won't work. Remember, odor+puff = immediate reward (syrup). Puff with no odor, no reward. This is an incredibly cheap test, all can be done in a day from start to finish, and you can release the bees afterwards. It does take time and a bit of patience (but the results are immediate). Now, to streamline this, you can use the "instrument on a desktop" developed by Inscentinel. http://www.inscentinel.com/tech.htm The bees get an environmentally controlled home, an automated video system that observes the bees, and indicator lights that flag a detection. Bit fancier than bees in a straw, but same assay (PER). Whether the bees care if they are in a straw or a bee hotel will be a subject of collaborative work between Inscentinel and us this summer at the University of Montana in Missoula. We were initially trained by Dr. Smith at OSU. Also, one of the Inscentinel scientists trained in France with Dr. Pham Delegue. We anticipate that the Inscentinel scientists will probably be in Missoula for the Western Apiculture Meetings on July 13-15 (beekeeper.dbs.umt.edu/WAS/). We have confirmation from them that if the funding, etc. permits, they will be here in Missoula for the meeting, will participate. On July 13th, Dr. Gabe Patrick, of the U.S. EPA Office of Pesticide Program (he was to have hosted the meeting cancelled by Bayer)will be in Missoula as a key note speaker for a Symposium on Pesticides and the next day for WAS. We invite anyone with an interest or knowledge of pesticides and honey bees or native pollinators, to participate in the Symposium. The objective is to get some of the recent issues out on the table, with all sides offered a chance to present their opinions, data. Our web page will be updated this week --we have added researchers working with bees (pollinators) and pesticides, who are coming from Italy and from Canada. We would like to see more Pesticide company representatives and growers participate, and are holding a speaking position or two open for them. This is a great chance for all to talk about these things and meet one of the EPA people who has to deal with how EPA evaluates pesticides risks to pollinators. He's in a position to get some things done; questions answered. Gabe's very open to getting a better hand on the state of North America with respect to these questions -- reason he was involved in the cancelled meeting, then quickly orchestrated a meeting of researchers and beekeeping representatives in NewPort, Rhode Island, in early May, and now is coming to Montana to talk to and meet with anyone who has a stake in these issues. Best Jerry P.S. In case you are wondering, I can't talk to or render an opinion regarding the specific issues being recently discussed in Bee Culture and on this list, because of the pending class action suit by the so-called "gang of 13". That's a most unfortunate term -- these beekeepers deserve more respect. Mark's opinions are his and do not necessarily reflect those of other researchers. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:10:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Poor mating of queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/06/2004 05:02:47 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > There are some indications that virgins are selective to a degree in the > males that they actually mate with and that this selectivity increases with > the amount of racial difference. > > Dave, > > Can you point to references for this statement? > > Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:18:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Swarming already?!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am a newbie beekeeper trying to convince a hive to stay where they > are. The one hive is turning out to be quite a job all by itself! > > Carol Brooke Carol, try taking four frames of capped brood and trading them with four empty frames from your split. Make sure to keep the queens in the hive they belong in, and again remove any queen cells. Hopefully these empty frames with reduce their urge to swarm. marc studebaker :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:22:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Poor mating of queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I made a split which produces queen cells........ and can only say, "It > works for me". Some > of us have used this technique on a commercial basis over a span of years, > with reasonable success. I believe that Dave Green is one. I am another. Allen, I have compressed quotes from 2 messages to save space, yours being the latter part. Splitting is a technique unknown in the UK, at least in that name. I gather that it is some form of artificial swarm. Is the split made vertically or horizontally? In the former case the separated portion can draw on all the resources of the hive to nourish queen larvae optimally, but if wholly separated they cannot and so it is suspected that poor queens may result. Chris > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:32:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Poor mating of queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/06/2004 05:02:47 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > Although the second half of May was better, there were cool (or cold!) > northerly winds on 8 days and minima of 4C and 5C on the nights of 23rd and > 24th - just right to start rape honey granulating in the combs! > Peter, I don't understand why you consider these low temperatures should start granulation. My understanding is that this proceeds best at 57F (mental arithmetic says about 14C) and will be less rapid the further one gets from this temperature, up or down. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 21:17:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Subject: Auction in Bay City, MI and Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LeavesHi, For anyone interested, I just spoke to the owner of the equipment selling in Bay City, MI on June 12. There are 2 extractors-both SS, 4 frame, one electric and one manual. The owner-not a beekeeper believes they are radial but won't swear to it. There are also 2 uncapping knives-one electric one manual heat. The wooden ware has not been used for 10 to 15 years old. There is also other misc. equipment, some home made. Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:06:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Poor mating of queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Splitting is a technique unknown in the UK, at least in that name. I > gather that it is some form of artificial swarm. Is the split made > vertically or horizontally? Sometimes they are called "divides". There are many variations. I've described some at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/spring and other pages referenced at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/menus/topics.htm > In the former case the separated portion > can draw on all the resources of the hive to nourish queen larvae > optimally, but if wholly separated they cannot and so it is suspected > that poor queens may result. YMMV. We find here that good splits made during a flow are just fine. Splits that are in contact with the parent colony, however, will not often hatch and mate queens ...in my experience. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 21:26:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 31 May 2004 to 1 Jun 2004 (#2004-150) In-Reply-To: <200406020402.i523tR7C005110@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol Brooke wrote: "Is there anything else I should be doing? I don't really want to make any increase. These hives are in my backyard and I really don't desire anymore. The one hive is turning out to be quite a job all by itself! Any advice would be greatly appreciated. TIA" You might swap the two hives around. Then all of the field bees would go to the newly made split which would now be setting in the older, stronger hive's location. At the same time you would be significantly reducing the strong hive's worker population. Might help the situation in both hives. Mike Located in south, central Alabama :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 00:19:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Rape crystalisation In-Reply-To: <1d8.2320c001.2defbd91@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris and Peter, Over many years it has been my experience to suffer during the Rape nectar flow as follows: Flowers, perfect, bright yellow, smelling good and worked by the bees - for 5 - 8 days. Combs are starting to be filled. Then on comes a period of about 5 - 7 days, 7-10°C, rainy days with a cold east wind. Bees sitting inside doing not much (apart from finalizing swarming procedures!). Then there is a resumption of the Rape nectar flow for about 14 - 20 days. Result: Frames originating from the later flow are perfect for extraction , but those that were started before and interrupted by the poor weather quite often had a core of granulated or granulating honey surrounded by liquid honey from the latter flow. What a pain to extract! This was done achieved by: a. Cutting out the whole frame and melting in my wax - honey separator. b. Extracting slowly until most of their honey was out of the frame, then soaking the said frame and leaving for bees to clear out. The apiary that collected this then had their supers harvested at a later date. c. Extracting nothing from affected frames, and used them to feed during the June gap - after having any wax capping thoroughly scraped to expose the honey. Cool conditions favoured Rape granulation! Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:16:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Imidacloprid update In-Reply-To: <20040602173754.21054.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dr. Mussen has some info on this in the May/June UC Davis newsletter http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/05-06-04.pdf Some beemen think it is causing problems with hives working cotton in California.In Cal. you are supposed to be notified in advance of spraying,so beekeepers at least should know if this is being used near their beeyards and can watch for problems. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:31:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L Moderators Subject: BEE-L Outtage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 -- The mail server at UAlbany has been down since 4AM Thursday morning. This is not the same as the LISTSERV server at UAlbany, which has been fine. However, the result of the mail server being down is the LISTSERV server has not received approvals for posts submitted between 9:30PM EST Wednesday evening and 12AM EST Friday morning. If you submitted a post in that time span, you might consider submitting it again. In the meantime, work arounds have been affected so BEE-L can run without the need for the UAlbany mail server. Apologies for the inconvenience. Sincerely, BEE-L Moderators :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 23:29:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Poor mating of queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: > I don't understand why you consider these low temperatures should start > granulation. My understanding is that this proceeds best at 57F (mental arithmetic > says about 14C) and will be less rapid the further one gets from this > temperature, up or down. Cold nights cause the bees to cluster in the brood box, leaving the honey in the supers. The temperature in the supers then falls - but not to the outside temperature because of heat rising from the brood box. If this happens early in the flow from OSR then granulation starts in the supers and this will seed the later flow. We get a similar problem if colonies swarm early (or is split) leaving insufficient bees to cover the honey in the supers. 14C is the optimum temperature for rapid granulation, but OSR (and other honey) will granulate over a wide range; I prepare set honey throughout the year by seeding clear honey and sometimes during the summer the honey house, and therefore the honey, does not fall below 21C - but the honey still sets. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 09:58:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Poor mating of queens (action replay) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Due to server outage, I resubmit this message Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 9:59 AM ** Allen said... > We find here that good splits made during a flow are just fine I think this may be the main reason for the UK/US difference.... It would be rare or even freak conditions that would give a flow in UK that was continuous for the length of time that a 'split' would need to raise, hatch and mate a queen. ** Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 09:54:18 -0500 Reply-To: dobsondomain@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stevennancy Dobson Subject: Clover? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi everyone, My hives are situated between (less than 100 yards) two swaths of clover (purple is the main colour but also some white) the clover has been left to grow as it will mowing will take place in the fall or as the flowers fail. However I am yet to see one of my bees on the clover the only ones I have seen are bumble bees. Is there a particular clover I should plant next year or am I looking with my eyes closed? The bees seem to be doing fine in every other way. Thanks in advance Steve :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 09:11:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> ...many queens raised under this method will >>> have been the oldest possible larvae that could be converted. >> >> I have often heard this said, but never seen *any* proof. > > I cannot give you the detailed references, but I based my assumption > on... > By putting these things together, I conclude that queens produced by > splitting... > I could be rude here and make jibes about the quality of commercially > reared queens on the American continent... And the deterioration and mis-matching that comes from caging, shipping, banking, & introducing to distant colonies... As we have already agreed, our experiences and observations are local to each of us and have a bearing on our conclusions. We are likely both quite correct in our positions, particularly if we have different standards, goals, and objectives. Your points are good, but IMO, assumptions, and seductive reasoning based on them, is no substitute for actual performance measurements in a real in-hive situation. (I meant to write 'deductive', but my finger missed by a cm.) I've never measured, but when doing side-by-side walk-away splits, have often seen the daughter splits (queenless for 21 days awaiting the new queen) achieve 90% success in requeening themselves and quickly overtake, then exceed the mother colony when the new queen gets going. Hardly the sign of an inferior queen. Maybe earlier supercedure is likely with such queens, but I have heard of studies showing well over 30% of introduced queens routinely being replaced by the bees within months of purchase, so what is the real alternative other than attempting to raise cells (which many beekeepers -- even some 'pros' -- do not do well) or find some swarm cells? My observations are not scientific, that's for sure, but I've bought and raised tens of thousands of queens and colonies, and although I do not doubt your logic in well-controlled circumstances, where there are no other factors limiting performance, I really doubt its relevance in the real world, full of compromises, which most of us inhabit. My point is that many beekeepers should not dismiss a very useful technique on theoretical grounds, and therefore forego splitting or allow a hive to run down for fear that a queen raised by the emergency impulse may be less than ideal. Most of us are living in a world that is less than ideal, and many of us are not seeking perfection in our beekeeping. We are always making compromises between time, money, risk and results. It seems to me that this particular compromise will prove not to be the limiting factor for many of us, and many will be perfectly happy with emergency queens. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 15:58:01 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Workshop Notice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Central Jersey Beekeepers Association is having a workshop next Saturday in Columbus, New Jersey, and all are invited (there is a small fee for lunch): At the Columbus Grange, Saturday June 12, 2004: 9:00 Registration and coffee/danish 9:30 Dr. Dewey Caron: Varroa Sampling and Population Monitoring 10:30 Dr. Mike Stanghellini: Practical Pest Management 11:30 LUNCH: Hot and Cold Buffet 12:30 Bob Hughes Bee Yard: Putting the lecture into practice For directions and RSVP call or e-mail: KENNETH PRETEROTI (732)723-1776, k.preteroti@att.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 11:51:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: As we have already agreed, our experiences and observations are local to each of us and have a bearing on our conclusions. And my comments are in the same text as may not apply to Canada & the U.K.. Allen said: I've never measured, but when doing side-by-side walk-away splits, have often seen the daughter splits (queenless for 21 days awaiting the new queen) achieve 90% success in requeening themselves and quickly overtake, then exceed the mother colony when the new queen gets going. Hardly the sign of an inferior queen. We used to see the above 30-40 years ago in the U.S.. Now what myself and others are seeing is quite different and we are at a loss as to the reason why. We are seeing about 50% of hives which swarm are not requeening. 50% is a general figure gleaned from talking to other beekeepers at national meetings about the problem and not from actual records. We find these hives quickly towards the end of a honey flow because honey supers are not being filled. Queenless and a small population of bees bringing in nectar and filling frames in the brood nest is the usual situation. If close attention is not paid by the commercial beekeeper then laying workers and wax moth damage is the rule. Years ago the beekeeper *usually* only lost the honey crop from a swarmed hive but not the hive. Why now? At times all a beekeeper can do with a queenless hive is put in a frame of eggs and hope for the best but the cells/queens we raise by using the grafting/starter/ finnisher method are as a general rule superior to the *leave alone * method. Also with a 50% requeen rate we worry a supercedure queen might not always be replaced and we have got another queenless hive. In fact I usually *if not always* shake the bees out and take the boxes as hive numbers towards the end of the major honey flow are not important only may mean only another weak hive to feed and medicate etc. going into winter. A hive which many times will simply be robbed out by the strong hives at the end of the honey flow. Queenlessness has in my opinion became a larger problem in the U.S. than at any time in U.S. beekeeping history. Comments? I have ruled out a single race or queen breeder bees as the problem because we use queens from many of the best queen breeders. I will say that the Russian/NWC hybrid bee I have used the last two years has a perfect 100% requeen ratio. I am keeping close records on these hives. Two possible explanations in my opinion. 1. Sue Colby is selecting the new world carniolan for requeening after swarming trait. 2. Russian bees are better at requeening after swarming than the bees we currently use in the U.S. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 15:33:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kyle Lewis Subject: Re: Clover? Steve, Is the clover suffering from drought? If so, the plants may flower without producing nectar. You can break open clover florets to see or taste the nectar. Or, the bees may have found a preferred floral source that is more distant. However, I wouldn't think they would turn away from clover... Cheers, Kyle :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 20:58:01 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: poor mating of queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Harrison wrote ''Queenlessness has in my opinion became a larger = problem in the U.S. than at any time in U.S. beekeeping history. Comments?'' Yes, in a single word, coumaphos. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:27:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hensler Subject: Re: Clover? Comments: To: dobsondomain@earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stevennancy Dobson" To: > My hives are situated between (less than 100 yards) two swaths of clover > (purple is the main colour but also some white) the clover has been left to > grow as it will mowing will take place in the fall or as the flowers fail. > However I am yet to see one of my bees on the clover the only ones I have > seen are bumble bees. Is there a particular clover I should plant next > year or am I looking with my eyes closed? The "purple" clover you describe is probably Red Clover, which honey bees cannot work, but bumble bees can. We have had good results with both White Dutch and Ladino clover, and I've talked to other beekeepers who have had good production from Sweet Clover. Also, the bees may be working some other source of nectar and ignoring the clover for the time being. Then too, they may be working it during a time of the day when you aren't there to observe them... Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, WA http://www.povn.com/rock/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 07:43:02 +1000 Reply-To: T & M Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > And the deterioration and mis-matching that comes from caging, shipping, > banking, & introducing to distant colonies... Can you give us references for these points. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 17:00:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T & M Weatherhead wrote: >> And the deterioration and mis-matching that comes from caging, >> shipping, banking, & introducing to distant colonies... > > Can you give us references for these points. Not sure what you are asking for, since these effects are constantly discussed by beekeepers throughout North America, and I assumed, elsewhere in the world, and I know you to be -- or have been -- a producer and shipper of high quality queens for many years, but I'll expand a bit. In the past decade alone, numerous magazine articles and Internet discussions have discussed the problems that can arise from holding queens in cages for periods of time; the effects of queen age at introduction and timing of queen introduction (an Australian study, I believe); the documented extremes of temperature and handling that queens experience while travelling via mail or courier; the problems of banking in regard to potential damage to queens' feet when held in banks; and the difficulties people experience in getting Russian queens accepted by non-Russsian colonies (to discuss only very obvious example). Of course these effects are not always present, or even very significant when they are, and even when they occur, it is hard for a buyer to know what went wrong. These problems do not necessarily occur in every case, but for many -- particularly those ordering small numbers in remote areas -- one or more of these factors can come up and combine to reduce requeening success and queen performance very significantly, on enough occasions to be very discouraging. Moreover, every commercial beekeeper I know can trot out numerous stories about batches of purchased queens that just were no good, or which were all superceded in short order. Producing, holding, shipping, and introducing commercial mated queens is fraught with peril for the buyer. Most of the time it works out okay, and often very well, but things go wrong often enough that few will dispute that raising your own queens under conditions that you control yourself, and where these effects can be avoided or at least controlled, is superior to relying on mass-produced queens reared at a distant point, banked, and shipped. Hope I have helped. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ As I write this, and for the past three hours, we have been experiencing a heavy downpour. This should break our drought, and also ensure that the grasshoppers which were predicted to eat everything except the telephone poles, go to grasshopper heaven sooner than they had planned. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 20:26:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: 2 queen hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone, I have 2 questions. 1) What do you think is a reasonable time to separate a 2 queen hive = with the double screen before switching to an excluder? I'm thinking = 3-4 days??. 2) Anyone running there hives near a field of birdsfoot trefoil clover? = I'm thinking of sowing 8-10 acres of it in my 1 field? Bees seem to be flying very well here in south eastern Ontario Canada. = I'm getting ready to add second super on. Thanks Kent Stienburg :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 19:15:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: poor mating of queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote ''Queenlessness has in my opinion became a larger problem in the U.S. than at any time in U.S. beekeeping history. Comments?'' Roger White wrote: Yes, in a single word, coumaphos You have traced queenlessness after swarming back to coumaphos use Roger? When you say coumaphos do you mean an approved bee strip such as we use in the U.S. made by Bayer or another method of application? All kinds of problems have been traced back to illegal use of coumaphos by the Beltsville bee lab. Reported by the bee lab with as per label checkmite use. Queen breeders have have trouble raising and mating queens while the Checkmite strip has been in the hive and even one use of the strip puts a small amount of coumaphos in brood comb. The swarming and then not requeening problem I speak of goes back to even before varroa was detected in the U.S.. Researchers say the problem would stop if queen breeders selected for the trait. The Russian /Nwc queens I spoke of are on comb which has been treated before with checkmite but I quit using checkmite a couple years ago. I will be talking tomorrow with Dr. Mark Feldlaufer of the bee lab so I might get an update on what is going on in the U.S. with coumaphos problems. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:30:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens It is possible that the regular and approved product use of Apistan has affected the viable sperm of the drones that the queens are mating with. Several researchers have documented that this product affects drones, (reduced sperm counts to sterility) and with the recent evidence of mitecide build up in wax, the affect could involve all area/local beekeepers by affecting the drones in the DCA's. (drone congregation areas) It is generally accepted that queens mate with 10-20 drones during their mating flight. If these drones have been affected then is is possible that during the queens mating she could be receiving much less viable sperm for her mating effort than she would have received twenty years ago. This could explain the complaints from fellow beekeepers about queen problems. Supersedure, disapperence, slow acceptance, etc, etc, all IMO of poorly mated queens. It is hard to rear queens when we are continuing to dump chemicals into our hives in an effort to remove all mites. There are so many different systems that claim threshold mite control that it can be confusing to new beekeepers and oldsters alike as to what to use. Frank Wyatt Eden, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:41:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Poor mating of queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Chris & all > > There are some indications that virgins are selective to a degree in the > > males that they actually mate with and that this selectivity increases with > > the amount of racial difference. > > > Can you point to references for this statement? The phenomena is not referenced as a separate subject, but is discussed in a number of papers about polyandry and the evolution of polyandry. (Search for these and 'mating preferences'). There was a great deal of discussion about this around 25 years ago, Beowulf Cooper and John Inchley were among those in the discussions. I remember that there was a distinct advantage of AMM over Ligustica, with some suggestion that an AMM queen could use her sting to burst a pumped up Italian drone that was in pursuit. ** Testing genetic variance hypotheses for the evolution of polyandry in the honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) P. Neumann , R.F.A. Moritz Evolutionary aspects of the multiple mating phenomenon in honeybees are addressed. For instance the relationship between the number of matings of honeybee queens and their colony performance (Neumann & Moritz 2000, Insectes soc) or the behavioural mating tactics of honeybee queens are studied (Schlüns et al 2002, in review). ** There is mention of this selective mating in some work about Africanised bees, with the thrust being that Scutellata can preferentially mate with like drones. but I cannot find the specific paper in the sea of documents on the subject. I believe that Ben Oldroyd and perhaps Kellie palmer are interested in this, if not working on it directly. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 07:22:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Carroll Subject: doomed hive? I am new to beekeeping and am having a problem with one of my hives. I received a 3-lb package of bees with an Italian queen on May 3. Most of the bees were dead but the queen was still alive. I ordered a replacement package but also decided to install this package to see what would happen, after all the queen was still alive. I started feeding them sugar syrup. The workers began foraging in earnest, gathering lots of pollen and honey. They started building comb on the new foundation but soon stopped after filling 1/2 of 1 frame with comb (both sides). The queen layed eggs in all of the cells that were not filled honey or pollen. But she has nowhere else to lay. In addition the brood that is capped appear to be all drone brood (large rounded cappings). Prior to noticing the drone brood, I thought a possible way to alleviate the lack of comb would be to add plastic frames. This would allow the queen to begin laying again. But the appearance of the drone brood indicates something else may be going on. The number of worker bees is also now very small 100 to 200 maybe. If the queen did start to lay in abundance, the workers could not tend the young. Any suggestions on how to save the hive? I don't want to give up on it. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:59:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Poor mating of queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Allen said... > We find here that good splits made during a flow are just fine I think this may be the main reason for the UK/US difference.... It would be rare or even freak conditions that would give a flow in UK that was continuous for the length of time that a 'split' would need to raise, hatch and mate a queen. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:53:23 +1000 Reply-To: T & M Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote > Not sure what you are asking for, since these effects are constantly > discussed by beekeepers throughout North America, and I assumed, elsewhere > in the world.... I agree they are discussed but, as I recall, when the person who started this latest discussion on splits mentioned that he thought the splits produced inferior queens, he was asked for references. So shouldn't I ask for references when the statement was made about shipping etc. affecting queens? I am keen to be able to glean as much information as possible about what is being said about shipping etc. I know that I cannot produce 100% perfect queen bees for sale. As I am dealing with nature I must accept that the queens I produce will probably fit the bell curve. I find this with what I use for myself in our own hives. There will be above average ones, average ones and below average ones. As I said I am dealing with nature so how many below average ones are realistic? As an example, take race horses. How many are breed from the best genetic stock but end up in pet food cans? This variability has been around for years. I know one queen breeder here in Australia that was looking at single drone insemination to try to get a more even producing queen but it did not work. Also, years ago it was a common practice here in Australia to "even up hives". Those that were not doing well had brood added to them from hives that were going exceptionally well. This is not done very often nowadays because of brood disease. So back in the "good old days" there was this variability with hives i.e. queens. Can this be bred out? I doubt it? Every thing else in nature has this variability and breeding programes, even for dairy cows, do not produce every cow giving the same quantity of milk. There are good, average and bad. The bad are culled. > In the past decade alone, numerous magazine articles and Internet > discussions have discussed the problems that can arise.. Yes but most are anecdotal. Anecdotal is not science but it does make the good basis for a scientific experiment. >From my observations, the discussions always revolves around the queens and how bad or good they were. I rarely see any discussion about the hives the queens are being introduced to or the conditions prevailing at the time of introduction. Why is this? Surely hive and climatic conditions would have an affect on acceptance and maybe supercedure. > Of course these effects are not always present, or even very significant > when they are, and even when they occur, it is hard for a buyer to know what > went wrong. These problems do not necessarily occur in every case Which is most frustrating. > Moreover, every commercial beekeeper I know can trot out > numerous stories about batches of purchased queens that just were no good, > or which were all superceded in short order. And every queen bee breeder has a story about queens that they sent to a commercial beekeeper that they claimed were no good but were they? Here is a true story from Australia, one of many that I could tell. A queen breeder (Q1) was short one week and rang his mate (queen breeder Q2)) to see if he had any spare he could buy. Yes Q1 did have spare. Q2 asked if he would bundle up 50 and send to beekeeper X. Q1 said yes he could and he was also sending 50 queens to X. Q2 said to make sure they went in separate lots and to mark one lot as coming from Q2. No worries. Several months later beekeeper X rang Q1 to order some more queens. He said in conversation that the queens Q1 had sent previously went well but he had also got queens from Q2 the same week and they did not perform. Why is this so? Same queen breeder, same method of transport, same batch of queens but two different results. Don't take it that I am trying to bash the beekeeper. I know that it is fashionable to bash the queen bee but I am interested in constructive comments that may help me produce a better queen. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 13:12:25 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Poor mating of queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, Yes, coumaphos causes Intermediate Caste Syndrome - a search of the = Bee-l archives should pull what has been said in the past about it on = this list. This condition was first recognized , named and decribed by = D. Micheletto and myself in The Beekeepers Quartely which is published = in the UK. Coumaphos cause intermediates to develop and these may live = for many months in different hives - upsetting the whole queen cell = raising process either by the production of small amounts of queen = pheremone so that the colony is queenless but not really. They will = enter queenless hives and destroy or cause the bees to destroy any cells = in the hive. =20 Checkmite+ was used and label directions were followed with the = exception that only one strip/hive was used instead of two. It will = take a minimum of six years for the situation to return to what it was = pre-coumaphos use. Best regards Roger Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:16:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank & all > It is possible that the regular and approved product use of Apistan has > affected the viable sperm of the drones that the queens are mating with. While it is possible that there is an element of this in the explanation, it is certainly not the whole story. The problematic mating has been going on in UK for almost 20 years and we have only been using treatments for varroa since 1992 at the longest and in my area since 1995. The only contaminants that I can think of that pre-date varroa was tobacco smoke that was used by some of us in attempting to detect varroa and possibly Folbex VA that was sometimes used as acarine mite control. Since varroa and the treatments for it hit UK, there has been a massive increase in the number of 'dry' drones. There are always a few dry drones, but in some cases it is becoming hard to find a 'wet' one... I was present on one occasion when about 300 drones were popped and all were dry. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:43:49 -0400 Reply-To: Kate Henderson Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kate Henderson Subject: Doomed hive Brian, Can you take a frame or two from each of the other hives with brood and bees for this hive? Also, switch the location of this hive with your strongest hive? The field bees would return to this hive at the end of the day, increasing the numbers as well. And put the have started wax foundations in another hive as well for them to keep drawing it out. Kate in NY *** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 15:52:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Collett Subject: Re: doomed hive? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The number of worker bees is also now very > small 100 to 200 maybe. If the queen did start to lay in abundance, the > workers could not tend the young. > > Any suggestions on how to save the hive? If I were you, I would add 2 frames of brood from a strong hive that is close to hatching. This should up the worker population and help the colony provided that the queen is in good order. The fact that all the brood is drone brood is not a good sign, and indicates that the queen may still be a virgin, or have been harmed in some way during her near death experience. If you can afford to add a couple of frames of brood, and move them into a nucleus box for the time being, they might be able to get going again. If the queen refuses to start laying eggs satisfactorily, add the bees (without the queen because she is then useless) to the new package when it arrives. Good luck! Paul Collett Makana Meadery/Department of Entomology, Rhodes University Grahamstown, South Africa www.iqhilika.co.za A.m. capensis A.m.scutellata 810mm annual precipitation --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.699 / Virus Database: 456 - Release Date: 2004/06/04 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:30:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: doomed hive? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I received a 3-lb package of bees with an Italian queen on May 3. > Most of the bees were dead but the queen was still alive ...the > brood that is capped appear to be all drone brood (large rounded > cappings) ...The number of worker bees is also now very small > 100 to 200 maybe. Yes, you are right. This hive is definitely doomed. IMO, there is nothing you, or anyone can do to save it. The queen is not capable of producing workers, and the few remaining bees are old and will soon die. Sad, but this can happen to anyone. Hope the replacement works out better. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:14:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I agree they are discussed but, as I recall, when the person who > started this latest discussion on splits mentioned that he thought > the splits produced inferior queens, he was asked for references. So > shouldn't I ask for references when the statement was made about > shipping etc. affecting queens? Okay, I see. The thing is that there is no shortage of good information -- some of it quantitative -- on the problems of raising, distributing. and introducing mated queens, and anyone can find reams of info, including formal and informal studies, with a little effort. Moreover, the effects are obvious: dead bees on arrival, rejection, supercedure... On the other hand -- amazingly -- there is nothing quantative on the topic of the quality of emergency queens, and no obvious bad effects from emergency queens raised in season by good colonies. Although many writers mention the supposed selection of older larvae by bees, no one seems to have done even so much as a survey to try to figure out how often it occurs, the actual average age selected, and if these effects are true of all strains at all times, or due to specific conditions. Seems to me that the question is of prime importance. Every beekeeper who has more than a few hives, and more than a few years experience, has emergency queens at some point or another for various reasons. > Also, years ago it was a common practice here in Australia to "even up > hives". Those that were not doing well had brood added to them from > hives that were going exceptionally well. This is not done very > often nowadays because of brood disease. This is getting off the topic at hand, but worth some discussion. It's interesting. Are brood diseases becoming a problem in Australia? I know that we have massive problems with chalkbrood in imported Australian stock. We all wonder if any hygienic selection is used in Aus. and how AFB resistant the stock is if not ever challenged by AFB. Maybe you could comment. >> In the past decade alone, numerous magazine articles and Internet >> discussions have discussed the problems that can arise.. > > Yes but most are anecdotal. Anecdotal is not science but it does > make the good basis for a scientific experiment. Back to the topic. Seems to me that there are good studies on at least most of those points. And, I cannot see what proof is needed when bees arrive dead, die on introduction, are rejected by the bees, etc. etc. On the other hand, the production of intercastes by emergency impulse is more subtle. Sure, we've all seen obviously inferior, small queens raised by the emergency impulse in hives that are weak, starving, or out of season, but I have seen many, many emergency queens raised by healthy, well-fed hives at the peak of the season, and can say that I cannot recall seeing any obvious duds in that situation, and have had very good results from the hives headed by such queens. Therefore, I am very curious. Obviously, it is in the interests of those who make their money by raising and selling queens (and advertise in magazines) to study and promote use of those queens, and in the meantime trash the queens that any beekeeper can raise, free of charge, in a matter of minutes, with no waiting or phoning around or trips to the post office, while demonstrting almost zero skill. The only skill required in this latter approach is to make sure the hive being split is strong and healthy, and that there is a good flow underway in the spring. > From my observations, the discussions always revolves around the > queens and > how bad or good they were. I rarely see any discussion about the > hives the queens are being introduced to or the conditions prevailing > at the time of introduction. Why is this? Surely hive and climatic > conditions would have an affect on acceptance and maybe supercedure. I think we are barking up different trees, but I agree totally with all your points, and appreciate your helping me make my point. My only point is this: We both can see that there are many risks and considerable costs associated with relying on purchased queens, since there are so many people of varying abilities, including the purchasing beekeeper, in the process, and many places for things to go wrong -- often without anyone knowing until a long time after. If everything goes right, in return for a lot of effort and some expense, the beekeeper can expect (hope) to get a superior result. On the other hand, a beekeeper can simply split and let the bees raise the new queen and get average results with a small risk of failure. I'd like to see some studies about how to get the best results using this technique. (Attention grad students) You make many other important points, and maybe I'll write more on those topics later, agreeing with you, but, for now, my main interest is stimulating some respect for emergency queens and the good job they can do for us. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:43:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Checkmite was ( poor mating of queens) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Off list Ron Bogansky asked if I am not using checkmite what am I using. The last time I used checkmite was in the fall of 2002. Reports had surfaced at the 2002 ABF convention from the Beltsville bee lab that coumaphos was being found in brood comb with as per label use. Also California queen breeders were having problems raising queens while Checkmite was in hives. ( ABF convention 2002) I had always used checkmite at half label so felt not a serious problem but a growing concern as was not supposed to happen according to prior testing before the section 18.. In the spring of 2003 I began a large comb replacement project. Over half my comb is new. I used Apilife var in the early fall 2003 with success. I have quite a few hives untreated but watched closely for varroa loads. SMR ,SMR/Italian, SMR survivor, Russian/NWC and Russian/Russian. Late fall use of Apilife var has problems as has been shown to be true in the article on page 475 of the June 2004 American Bee Journal. Those now reading the article (as the June issue hits mail boxes around the world )"Evaluation of selected biopesticide for the LATE FALL control of varroa mites in a northern temperate climate" by Michael Stanghellini and Paul Raybold *PLEASE NOTE* that the researchers tested Apilife var in temperatures at least 10 degrees F.below what the maker recommends. Hence the low control and the low control on double brood boxes *in my opinion*. I do not believe the research gave Apilife var a fair test and the article should have stated the maker recommends use at a higher temperature for varroa control. But the article is important as it shows that if you are using formic acid or Apilife var and treat to late in the fall poor varroa control will be had IN NORTHERN CLIMATES. All chemicals have got their drawbacks. For a infestation of varroa approaching threshold Checkmite is hard to beat but some coumaphos will remain in brood comb wax. I respect Roger's opinion but our researchers say coumaphos stays in wax much longer than the five years Roger stated. The process to remove coumaphos from wax is on patent (I am told) by Bayer corp (1979) and none of the wax processing plants have bought the rights to use the process from Bayer yet (I have been told). The above all comes from the *beekeeper grapevine* so may be accurate or may not. If the above is true then coumaphos is not being removed from recycled wax. Do others have better information? If so please correct the above for the sake of accuracy! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:42:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Carroll Subject: Re: doomed hive? I just checked the hive again today. I may be mistaken about the drone cells. The rounded caps may be due to improper construction of the cells, ie, they are not deep enough so the cells appear taller than the uncapped cells around them. I looked up drone laying in a few books and they say the queen lays drone eggs on the side of the cell. All of the eggs I see are on the bottom. In fact, I am seeing multiple eggs in the bottom of the cells which may be good news about the queen. The major problem I see is that the older worker bees are not building comb and are slowing dying off. I only have 1 other hive, which is also weak. I think the only way to save the hive is to unite workers and brood from another colony. I thought I might be able to just wait it out but the very small number of capped brood wasn't encouraging. When they emerge there just doesn't seem like there will be enough bees in the near future to draw out the comb and take care of the feeding, etc. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:09:33 +1000 Reply-To: T & M Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote > On the other hand -- amazingly -- there is *nothing* quantative on the topic > of the quality of emergency queens, and no obvious bad effects from > emergency queens raised in season by good colonies. Well let me add my anecdotal information. 20 years ago I tried the spilt method as I was not going to pay for queens; let them raise their own. (Maybe some of my Scotch blood coming to the fore.) I split from good hives (subjective evaluation) in spring and got poor returns. Plenty of drones around. The majority of those that did survive turned out to be tourist hives i.e in migratory terms hives that were taken around the country side for a look see but did not produce much honey. I ended up buying some queens to re-queen and then got good results. Tried splits again the next year with similar reuslts. So I gave up and kept to purchasing queens. > Seems to me that the question is of prime importance. Every beekeeper who > has more than a few hives, and more than a few years experience, has > emergency queens at some point or another for various reasons. Yes I get them and when requeening, I often find that it is the self set (superceded) queens that are heading poor colonies. Yes there are exceptions but not often. > Back to the topic. Seems to me that there are good studies on at least most > of those points. And, I cannot see what proof is needed when bees arrive > dead, die on introduction, are rejected by the bees, etc. etc. Dead on arrival is certainly a reason for poor performance and poor acceptance. Die on introduction - why? Queen or hive? Rejected - fault of queen or hive? Where is the proof? We know the end result but are we interpreting the right cause? I know beekeepers who now admit that when they introduced queens to their hives, they had high nosema counts. Reality tells us that we often re-queen poor performing hives. Why were they poor performing? We have ceratin species of trees in Australia that when beekeepers are working them, the introduction rate for queens is poor. This includes bought queens or queens raised by the beekeeper. All real but we know the results but not the reasons. > Therefore, I am very curious. Obviously, it is in the interests of those > who make their money by raising and selling queens (and advertise in > magazines) to study and promote use of those queens, and in the meantime > trash the queens that any beekeeper can raise I hope you are not including me in your above example. My often expressed quote is that if you have a method that works for you why change? So if the split method works for you, stay with it. So don't use a broad brush to tar everyone that rasies questions contrary to your opinion. I am turning away orders for queens so I don't have to malign others to get orders. > We both can see that there are many risks and considerable costs associated > with relying on purchased queens, since there are so many people of varying > abilities, including the purchasing beekeeper, in the process, and many > places for things to go wrong Agree fully. As I said before we are dealing with nature and you have pointed out people's ability, including both the queen breeder and the beekeeper. If it was easy, everyone would be a beekeeper and what would the price of honey be then? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 16:26:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: josh jaros Subject: Re: doomed hive? In-Reply-To: <200406072142.i57KlsSt001574@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Brian, Multiple eggs in one cells sounds like one of two things. Either your queen is getting a little jumpy or you have a laying worker. It seems like you were unsure about the status of the brood formations too, which leads me to believe that you have a laying worker. The brood of a laying worker is raised as you described it in the first post. Check to see if you indeed still have a queen. You won't be able to drop in a frame to see if the draw out queen cells because of the laying worker. Usually with a laying worker they won't draw any out. If you do have a queen, you could add a couple of frames of brood and then switch the location of the hive with a strong one on a warm sunny day. Wait a while and see what happens, perhaps she is a dud. Everything that you said though sounds like a laying worker. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:49:22 +1000 Reply-To: T & M Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: diseases MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I changed the subject as it is a different subject to "Poor mating of queens". Allen Dick wrote > This is getting off the topic at hand, but worth some discussion. It's > interesting. Are brood diseases becoming a problem in Australia? I know > that we have massive problems with chalkbrood in imported Australian stock. > We all wonder if any hygienic selection is used in Aus. and how AFB > resistant the stock is if not ever challenged by AFB. Brood diseases are not a problem for beekeepers, only bee havers. Yes we get brood diseases but a good beekeeper will keep on top of them. They are a pain but one of the many challenges you are confronted with when you keep bees. Chalkbrood. I know the problems with CB that have been written about. For me, I see it occasionally and an odd hive is affected more than others but it is not problem for me. I just requeen those hives that I perceive have a problem. It then is not a problem. My breeders do not exhibit CB. During our droughts, I hardly saw any CB so I put that down to dry climatic conditions. The only time I see it is in wet weather when the humidity and temperatures are high and particularly if hives are in the shade. However, these are my observations and are not scientifically based. I have had reports from a person I supplied queens to in Canada, and whose judgment I respect, that he had a problem with CB. Maybe climatic, maybe a different strain of CB, certainly the genes of the queen but it was there. You say there have been "massive problems" with CB, so how did the colonies ever produce brood and honey? Yes there was hygienic selection done in Australia but on a small scale. We had stock from Marla Spivak's lines so we had the hygienic genes. At that time, we were keen to breed hygienic stock but we were told that it was recessive genes and our feral colonies certainly would have diluted the hygienic genes. Now we are told that the hygienic traits are not recessive so we will most likely get enthused again. Also, we have had eminent people such as Sue Cobey here in Australia in recent times lecturing on II and hygienic selection so it stands a chance of being expanded. We don't deliberately challenge our stock with AFB. As we do not treat with antibiotics for AFB, it shows up from time to time. Many use a barrier system to get rid of the AFB from their apiaries. The only hassle is that if the bee haver down the road does not look after his/her hives then we have a pool of AFB ready to re-infect. I read that AFB is not a problem for Canadian beekeepers so why would you want us to challenge the bees for AFB? EFB is not a problem for me but it is in southern States. Why? Climate would seem to be the most likely difference as why would the same stock be susceptible in one area and not another? However, we cannot discount foraging conditions and this EFB question is being worked on at the present time in Australia. Also, for some unknown reason, hygienic bees will get EFB. It does not seem to follow that if they are hygienic that they will be hygienic to EFB. Hope the above answers your question. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:45:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Checkmite was ( poor mating of queens) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Late fall use of Apilife var has problems as has been shown to be > true in the article on page 475 of the June 2004 American Bee Journal... I agree with you 100% on coumaphos, Bob. IMO, it has no place in any beehive, except, perhaps, as an emergency one-time measure, but we are in the minority, I fear. Oxalic acid treatment apparently work in cool conditions. We're hoping that will turn out to be a solution for us northern types. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 10:48:51 +1000 Reply-To: T & M Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: washboarding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From the Proceedings of the 62nd Annual Canadian Honey Council meeting I = saw an abstract on washboarding. This has been a subject on bee-l = several times that I know of and I thought it might be of interest. I = put in the paragraphs to make it easier to read and I have retyped it so = apologies for any mistakes. The abstract reads:- "Understanding "Washboarding" behavior in the honey bee by K. Bohrer and = J. Pettis Worker honey bees exhibit a "group" activity know as washboarding on the = internal and external surfaces of the hive. This behavior is believed = to be associated with general cleaning activities but virtually nothing = is known as to the age of the worker engaged in the behavior, under what = circumstances workers washboard and the function of the behavior. =20 We investigated the frequency of washboarding behavior in relation to = worker age, time of day and surface texture. Marked worker bees began = washboarding at 13 days of age, with the peak washboarding occurring = when workers were 15-25 days of age. Washboarding behavior increased = from 8.00am to 2.00pm and remained elevated until late evening. =20 We presented workers with a panel containing three textures, unpainted = wood, slate and glass on hives that were washboarding. Comparisons of = washboarding behavior on the three textures revealed that washboarding = increased from glass to wood to slate but that these differences were = not significant. Washboarding behavior appears to be age dependant with = bees most likely to washboard between 15-25 days of age. Washboarding = increases during the day and peaks through the afternoon. =20 Workers may respond to rough surfaces and washboard more on these = surfaces as we found and increase in the behavior from bees on glass, = wood and slate but further testing is needed to confirm this. The = function of this behavior remains to be elucidated." Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 21:21:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: introducing a virgin queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had an interesting situation today. While visiting an outyard I found a large number of queen cells in a colony that behaves well and produces well. I cut them all out, but decided to save a couple of the queen cells and raise a few of queens for requeening later in the year. I drove for home with the queen cells carefully placed in a flower pot and wrapped in a towel. I planned to borrow a couple of frames of bees from my stronger colonies for each and let them tend the emerging queens. Getting home I found a surprise. When I uncovered the pot, two newly hatched queens crawled out. They hatched out during my hour-long drive home. I placed them in queen cages and set them up together with a couple of frames of bees and brood. I wanted to buy a little time and consider how I could introduce virgin queens to a mating nuc. I have done mated queens and queen cells with considerable success. I have never tried an undoubtably virgin queen. Just thinking out loud... virgin queens produce less queen substance than mated ones. The bees may not ID them as queens in their cages and they starve. When they everge from the cage the lack of the queen substance may cause them to be ignored. I need to have them released in the colony rather quickly because their bio clock is ticking.... I believe I call that mating flights happen starting on about the third day... What if I miss that day? As an aside, I also found it strange that they would emerge so soon when the colony had not yet swarmed. At least, from the strength of the colony I would suspect no swarm had left. I wonder if disturbing then and perhaps warming them in the sun might have had an effect. I would be happy to have any advice from this august group. Any thoughts. I figure I need to act in the next 24 hours. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 20:34:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: On Friday June 4, the first shipment of 400 queens arrived MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI, a note from Medhat: --- begin quote --- On Friday June 4, the first shipment of 400 queens arrived to Calgary airport. These queens were shipped from Strachan Apiaries, Inc, Yuba City, California. Queens arrived with the proper certificates and released from the airport without any problem. Over the past several days, beekeepers called my office to express their thanks and gratitude. We would also like to take this opportunity to thank all of you for your efforts. I would also like to thank the California queen producers who cooperated with us to get their inspection and health certificates ready as required by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency at the last minute. This positive response from all parties to the Canadian beekeepers' needs is remarkable. The change of regulations has allowed the beekeepers to import their queens from the USA in a controlled and regulated fashion. Now, beekeepers are trying to catch up with the season. They are importing thousands of queens to increase their number of colonies for honey production and crop pollination. --- end quote --- allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 22:14:11 -0400 Reply-To: Kate Henderson Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kate Henderson Subject: Re: Doomed Hive Brian, It sounds like you will probably lose that hive. But here's a suggestion to salvage some of it: destroy that queen and put the two hives together using a sheet of newspaper inbetween the supers method. At this point it seems like you have nothing to lose, but perhaps adding whats left of the workers and the brood to the other weak hive might help. Hope your replacement package comes soon. Kate in NY *** :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::