From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:51:20 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.7 required=2.4 tests=ALL_NATURAL,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8296F49076 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKlt012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0406B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 83392 Lines: 1910 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 21:58:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: diseases MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You say there have been "massive problems" > with CB, so how did the colonies ever produce brood and honey? Well, the most memorable bunch -- several hundred package colonies -- were assessed at up to 30% chalkbrood by a respected Alberta research worker. The hives were rejected for pollination by the inspector, but did build up enough to winter. > Now we are told that the hygienic traits are not recessive so we will > most likely get enthused again. Also, we have had eminent people > such as Sue Cobey here in Australia in recent times lecturing on II > and hygienic selection so it stands a chance of being expanded. Many people think that hygienic qualities are an absolute goal and are either there or they are not. It is not that simple. The search for and reinforcement of hygienic qualities is more of a journey than a destination, and even some progress towards the goal can have huge payoffs, especially if the most susceptible individuals can be culled from the pool, consistently over time. Many beekeepers have noticed a big drop in CB after only a generation or two of selection against CB mummies on the floors. > I read that AFB is not a problem for Canadian beekeepers so why would > you want us to challenge the bees for AFB? Did I suggest that? Don't think so. > Also, for some unknown reason, hygienic bees will get EFB. It does > not seem to follow that if they are hygienic that they will be > hygienic to EFB. Hygienic behavior is only one of many traits that contribute to disease resistance, and the hygienic test is just a surrogate test for AFB resistance. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 22:13:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Poor mating of Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I split from good hives (subjective evaluation) in spring and got poor > returns. Plenty of drones around. The majority of those that did > survive turned out to be tourist hives i.e in migratory terms hives > that were taken around the country side for a look see but did not > produce much honey. I ended up buying some queens to re-queen > and then got good results. Tried splits again the next year with > similar reuslts. So I gave up and kept to purchasing queens. You are not alone in that. Emergency queens work for some and not for others. It's a mystery. I suspect that there are more than a few factors at play, and that is why I'd like to see some studies. > Where is the proof? We know the end result but are we interpreting > the right cause? I know beekeepers who now admit that when they > introduced queens to their hives, they had high nosema counts. > Reality tells us that we often re-queen poor performing hives. Why > were they poor performing? Good points all, but we were discussing splits from (I assume) good hives, which levels the playing field. > We have ceratin species of trees in Australia that when beekeepers are > working them, the introduction rate for queens is poor. This includes > bought queens or queens raised by the beekeeper. All real but we > know the results but not the reasons. True again. Many factors. >> Therefore, I am very curious. Obviously, it is in the interests of >> those who make their money by raising and selling queens (and >> advertise in magazines) to study and promote use of those queens, >> and in the meantime trash the queens that any beekeeper can raise > > I hope you are not including me in your above example. I wasn't meaning you. I was speaking generally. > My often expressed quote is that if you have a method that works for > you why change? So if the split method works for you, stay with it. > So don't use a broad brush to tar everyone that rasies questions > contrary to your opinion. > > I am turning away orders for queens so I don't have to malign others > to get orders. Let's not take things personally. They were not meant that way. When I was buying Australian queens, you were one of my preferred suppliers. I have often mentioned that some of the best bees I ever had were from Aus, over a decade ago, and although I forget from whom they came, I suspect it may have been you, since you were one of my suppliers at the time. > If it was easy, everyone would be a beekeeper and what > would the price of honey be then? Good point. ...And if bees did not sting? allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 00:12:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Diseases MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Trevor, So, what is the ""Barrier Control for AFB? Regards,Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:34:26 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: poor mating of queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Harrison wrote: ''I respect Roger's opinion but our researchers say coumaphos stays in = wax much longer than the five years Roger stated'' Bob, actually I said a minimum of five years - I do not know the upper = limit and do not have acess to a laboratory where I could make = measurements and calculate residues. I suppose that environmental = factors play a big role and as these are variable, the upper limit will = also vary between colonies and locations. =20 The effect of pyrethroids on drone quality is well documented. There = was a mention that the decline in drone quality was happening before the = use of chemicals to control varroa. A possible cause of this could be = the chemical residues present in wax used to make foundation. Even wax = from Africa, which one would expect to be chemical free and it is often = touted as such, has chemical residues in it. The chemical companies, = even though they know that many chemicals are harmful to the = environment, continue to sell products that were banned years ago in = most developed countries. A chemical test of ''pure'' African beeswax = from a fairly remote area, like Handeni in Tanzania for example, will = reveal all sorts of chemical residues including chemicals such as DDT. = The amount present is very small, but may be enough to cause problems to = drones. Until recently PDB and napthalene were used in Europe as wax = moth controls, I think that they are still used in the USA, at least = they are still being advertised in the the US beekeeping catalogues. = These two chemicals were used for years and a large percentage of the = combs are contaminated. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:32:32 +1000 Reply-To: T & M Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: introducing a virgin queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I wanted to buy a little time and consider how I could introduce virgin queens > to a mating nuc. Brian Sheriff in England told me many years ago how he introduces virgins to mating nucs. He purposely bought virgins. Not sure if Brian is still doing this. He waits till it is almost dark and goes to the nuc. He puffs some smoke in the entrance and runs the virgin in puffing a little more smoke in after the virgin. Brian said he had good success rates of introduction and I assume subsequent mating. FWIW Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:48:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Little Gem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all > and if these effects are true of all strains at > all times, or due to specific conditions Now there's a little gem! I have for some time been concerned about the 'certainties' expressed in beekeeping and the variabilities mentioned in Allen's few words sum it up. Honey bees are not all the same, some vary by a large margin in habits and behaviour, but very little attention is given to the pedigrees of stocks that are used in studies and when it is mentioned it is just as a point of record, not as a variable in the experiment... Perhaps it is the financial constraints that are put on research these days, but it does call into question the results obtained. I think Trevor originally said this... > > Anecdotal is not science but it does > > make the good basis for a scientific experiment To me this is what a discussion list helps to achieve... It brings out much anecdotal information, which when viewed as a whole can indicate consensus and point the way on how to test the issue under discussion. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 05:39:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: introducing a virgin queen In-Reply-To: <004901c44cff$55be41c0$6d5b70d1@Tom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit you may release less than 24 hour old virgins into a hive without a cage as they have no smell, after 24 hours they need a cage with candy release. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 896 5247 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 21:00:02 +1000 Reply-To: T & M Weatherhead Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Diseases MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hi, Trevor, > So, what is the ""Barrier Control for AFB? Just walking out the door and will be away till 15 June. Will reply then. Trevort Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:08:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: introducing a virgin queen In-Reply-To: <004901c44cff$55be41c0$6d5b70d1@Tom> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:21 PM 6/7/2004, you wrote: >I believe I call that mating >flights happen starting on about the third day... What if I miss that day? I have had this happen once when I was late placing ripe cells in mating nucs. I went ahead and placed the virgin queens in the nucs right away (no caging) and it didn't pose a problem. A queen will delay it's mating flights if necessary for up to several weeks due to weather, being stuck in a cage, etc. I'm sure some have had more experience with this than I. Anyone have to deal with queens hatching while still in an incubator? -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:09:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: diseases Comments: To: T & M Weatherhead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Trevor wrote: "I read that AFB is not a problem for Canadian beekeepers so why would you want us to challenge the bees for AFB?" Response: AFB is a problem for Canadian beekeepers like any other beekeeper around the world. It is a management problem that beekeepers tend to use drugs (Antibiotics) to mask the problem. The recent findings of antibiotics in honey is a sign of how wide spread the AFB problem and antibiotics use around the world. In recent days we have seen honey removed off the shelf because of antibiotics, not because of miticides Beekeepers need to use cultural and genetic management practices to deal with the AFB. the reliance on hygienic bees is not enough to deal with the problem. Sanitation and cultural practices as burning infected hives, irradiation, and comb replacement are important for the prevention and treatements of AFB. I have seen some beekeepers used hygienic queens in colonies full of AFB scales and they claimed the hygienic bees failed to clear the AFB scales. I guess that we asking too much out of the hygienic bees. Hygienic is a part of the solution but it not all the solution. Unless there is a fundamental change in the beekeeping management practices, the AFB will continue to threaten the beekeeping industry. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 20:26:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: 2 queen hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello everyone, I have 2 questions. 1) What do you think is a reasonable time to separate a 2 queen hive with the double screen before switching to an excluder? I'm thinking 3-4 days??. 2) Anyone running there hives near a field of birdsfoot trefoil clover? I'm thinking of sowing 8-10 acres of it in my 1 field? Bees seem to be flying very well here in south eastern Ontario Canada. I'm getting ready to add second super on. Thanks Kent Stienburg :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:14:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Addison McMurtry Subject: Re: Doomed hive? In-Reply-To: <003601c44d2d$27fee5e0$5864fea9@orac> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Multiple eggs per cell is a bad sign - it implies laying workers and confirms your impression that the capped cells are drone brood (eggs laid by laying workers will all be drones). Have you actually seen the queen since you hived the package? If you can find her, I would cage her and replace her when the new package arrives. If you didn't order a new queen with the new package, do so now - your queen (if even present) is not adequate. If your other hive is weak as well, you could try combining them, but requeening both and looking for environmental reasons that the hives are failing might be a better course of action. The same thing happened to me with my first hive - the queen wasn't accepted and drone brood appeared everywhere! Things got back on track with requeening, though the hive was slow and never filled out the single deep completely that first season. -Lee McMurtry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 15:41:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: diseases Well said Dr. Nasr. The hygenic trait is just one part of a honeybees natural defenses against disease. As beekeepers we have a tendency to grasp onto specific traits or treatments as an absolute cure for what is ailing our bees. I do not believe that the hygenic behavior trait was ever meant to be a cure all for AFB. I think the original intent was to assist the bees and allow them the opportunity to clean up the early stages before the disease could over run the hive. I am a hobbyist bordering on sideliner,plus raising queens. When I had fewer hives I did not worry as much about which form of treatment or wheather to treat. I just did-across the board, as my fellow beekeepers. Now with more hives I have the following concerns. If I don't treat: I will lose hives that are costly to replace. If I continue to treat am I adding poisons into my hives/wax/honey. Am I helping to contrubute to resistance buildup to the approved products. The answer I believe is in the SMR/HYGENIC bees and IPM. However, it is not someting that will change because we inhance these traits for one single season. It will take 10-20 years or more before a noticable difference can be seen. Natural selection forced the Russian bee to take over approx. 100 years to build resistance to the varroa mite. We are trying to do the same within a shorter time span. Frank Wyatt Eden, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 18:40:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Stinnett Subject: Bee Go MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have never used Bee Go before. The bottle says to use sparingly. How = much is sparingly? And how long do you have to leave it on there. = Thanks for your advice. Tim Stinnett :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 11:18:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: Lecture on Alternative Treatments at a pub in Gormanston, Ireland Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk Comments: cc: NZBkprs@yahoogroups.com, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All Gormanston is just around the corner. It bids fair to be an excellent course as always. For the last two years, in response to many requests from beekeepers, we have had a session on alternative varroa treatments. This is held in a local hostelry, The Federation Of Irish Beekeeping Associations will not authorise an official lecture on the Alternative Treatments (with resistance to Bayvarol/Apistan just about at the gates.). I am suggesting that the format be changed somewhat this year, and rather than just have yours truly only, I am inviting other beekeepers with experience of alternative treatments to make their experience available to us. Something in the region of maybe 20 minutes or so per speaker depending on the number of speakers etc. An Overhead projector and a video will be available. For those who may not have been to Gormanston, the Huntsman, which is the venue for the lecture, is a delightful Pub where the knowledge can be imbibed with the local tipple!! Please tell me your thoughts on the above, and perhaps anybody interested may wish to contact me directly to work out details. Anybody interested in getting full information on Gormanston, please visit www.irishbeekeeping.ie and click on Gormanston. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 16:09:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: josh jaros Subject: Re: Bee Go In-Reply-To: <001d01c44da9$8b17a190$4600a8c0@flatpicker> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tim, You're probably going to want 5 to 6 tablespoons on your fume board with Bee Go. Some depends on the temperature and the sun. If it is really hot and the sun is shining, the Bee Go will nearly drive the bees off the brood. If it is really cold it might not even seem like it is working. Wait until a warm sunny day, that way most bees will be out foraging, making the task a whole lot easier. Always be careful not to let the Bee Go drip off the fume board. Let it soak into the board a bit before putting it on the top of the hive. I take it this is the reason they say to use "sparingly." Another option you might want to try next time is Fisher's Bee Quick. It is the same price and although it isn't quite as fast acting as Bee Go, it is composed of all natural ingredients. It has a very pleasant smell as well, like almond extract. Josh Jaros --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 06:34:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bee Go In-Reply-To: <001d01c44da9$8b17a190$4600a8c0@flatpicker> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-65D3BB2; boundary="=======2B8856C4=======" --=======2B8856C4======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-65D3BB2; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >I have never used Bee Go before. The bottle says to use sparingly. >Tim Stinnett You're probably going to want 5 to 6 tablespoons on your fume board with Bee Go. Josh Jaros 5 to 6 tablespoons is a massive dose. You don't need anywhere near that. You should start with just a little bit, and see how it works...adding a little bit more if necessary. I use a 12 oz honey bear container to spread the Bee-go. I SPRINKLE 10 or 12 shakes on the pad. Then the fume board is placed on the supers crooked. Straight on will intoxicate the bees, as the fumes are too strong. If the weather is warm and sunny, I can take off tons of honey with just one honey bear full of bee go. I can take off my whole crop (avg. 40 Ton) with a couple quarts. Mike --=======2B8856C4=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:20:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: OhioBeeFarmer Subject: Re: Bee Go MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wanted to add that I paint my fume boards black and will normally let them warm up with direct sunlight then place my bee go or whatever product I am using. This help move the fumes also giving the board a small gap so that the fanning of the bees will move the fumes along. > Tim, > > You're probably going to want 5 to 6 tablespoons on your fume board with Bee Go. Some depends on the temperature and the sun. If it is really hot and the sun is shining, the Bee Go will nearly drive the bees off the brood. If it is really cold it might not even seem like it is working. Wait until a warm sunny day, that way most bees will be out foraging, making the task a whole lot easier. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:47:49 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Go With all possible due respect to Charles Mraz, who is credited with inventing the fume board, fume boards are "sooo 20th Century", as my son would say. Even people with a pathological fear of saws and cutting wood can now simply buy the wooden assembly for a breeze board http://www.bee-quick.com/bee-quick/breeze.html from Brushy Mountain Bee Farm. They call it a "Ventilator Fume Board". The metal "scoop" components for a breeze board can be purchased at any home center (Lowes, Home Depot, 84 Lumber, Menards... just go slog through the the train-wreck of big box stores and frypits surrounding most towns sucking the life out of what used to be called "downtown", and you'll find one). Brushy Mountain does not offer the metal parts due to their bulk and resulting shipping cost. There are also several people messing around with computer CPU chip fans, batteries, and (I hope!) small solar panels to create "turbo fume boards". I expect at least one of these to make it into the catalogs. The point here is that the amount of vaporization caused by mere heat on a metal sheet does not produce the volume of volatiles that even a slight breeze does, and it certainly does not move or distribute the fumes within the supers anywhere near as quickly. Breeze boards can clear 2 mediums at a time with ease. In regard to "Bee-Go" and other Butyric Anhydride/Butanoic Anhydride products, the "exemption from the requirement for a tolerance" that allowed a human "food use" of these chemicals was revoked by the US EPA back in 1988. The only apparent remaining legal use for these chemicals in agriculture would be as a insect repellent in dry animal feeds. The FDA certainly is not going to suddenly create an exemption for their use in human food. (In the interest of full disclosure, I have an occasional hand in Fischer Alchemy, which makes "Bee-Quick". All the profits go to the (USA) Eastern Apicultural Society Bee Research Fund, so I don't make a single dime from it. I do snitch a few bottles for myself and my father, but I call that "quality control testing".) Here's the relevant document: http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-PEST/1997/August/Day-04/p20560.htm "Group 1-- Risk and hazard-based priorities. EPA has placed into Group 1 those tolerances and exemptions associated with the following types of pesticides, which based on the best available information to date appear to pose the greatest risk to the public health..." "The remaining pesticides in Group 1 no longer have registered food uses, and EPA has begun the process of proposing to revoke the tolerances associated with these pesticides..." "...Butanoic anhydride..." "Without a tolerance or exemption, food containing pesticide residues is considered to be adulterated and may not be legally moved in interstate commerce." So, what part of "no food use" is unclear? :) jim (The farther the 20th Century recedes, the more you shake your head and wonder just what everyone was thinking.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:55:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Bee Go Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com In-Reply-To: <032501c44f3c$f5245e90$7604c518@gollum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed To echo Jim's comments: Breeze boards are definitely the way to go. Being a sideliner/hobbyist with a day job I don't have the luxury of waiting for the best conditions to harvest honey. Usually I find myself pulling off honey on a Saturday morning in August so I can extract during the weekend. Inevitably it's cooler out than desirable (low 70's) and hazy, and clearing a hive with a solar fume board just takes forever. And I've got hives in the woods where they don't get much sun so it doesn't work well there either. Unfortunately it also tends to be calm at the same time so the swoop style breeze board doesn't work well either where I'm at. So I use the battery powered version I created because of these problems. (Jim, You may have seen it at the convention in Wooster this March) -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 00:13:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Hoffman Subject: Re: Bee Go Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed An appropriate time to ask: I have some unassembled woodenware that had bee-go spilled on it. How do I get rid of the smell? Airing it out in the sunshine doesn't get it all... mrh :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 06:30:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bee Go In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.1.20040611001210.03b6c340@pop.glue.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1780595C; boundary="=======36E96DCF=======" --=======36E96DCF======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1780595C; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > How do I >get rid of the smell? >mrh Is it Ammonia that does it? I believe so. Mike --=======36E96DCF=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:57:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After reading the article regarding PDB showing up in wax and honey in = the current issue of Bee Culture I have been thinking seriously about = controlling wax moths. They are a real pain, but using PDB religiously = solves the problem. Yet, I have no way of knowing if it shows up in my = honey. I do air out any comb that is stored with PDB before using it with the = bees. I was lead to believe by my seniors in beekeeping that PDB would = not permiate the wax so therefore honey stored therein would be safe. = >From the recent article, that seems not to be the case. In searching the archives, I was interested in the use of Bacillus = thuringiensis israelensis. I have used other Bt products to attach = gypsy moths and mosquito larvea. It seems that the israilensis works = with wax moths. As of the last archive entry (12/01) on the subject = there was no US source for Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis. =20 Does anyone have any updated information? I am thinking I would like to = try to leave PDB behind. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:11:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee Go MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The only time I entered honey in a show (about 20 years ago) the supers had=20 been cleared with Bee Go. I got first prize in the class. I still have the same plastic bottle of Bee Go, within a coffee jar, within=20= a=20 plastic bag, within another plastic bag, and I use it from time to time in=20 the swarming season. A few drops on a wodge of cotton or sponge can shift a= =20 swarm from an inaccessible place. A similar amount on a rag can discourage=20 scouts from proclaiming an attractive cavity to be the ideal new home. I wa= s paid=20 =A330 the other day for using this trick. It was just outside the kitchen o= f=20 the householder who decided it smelt just like the parmesan cheese he was=20 sprinkling on his pasta, and he rather liked it. So in my view it is a chemical that has an acceptable use in the beekeeper's= =20 kit, but that there are better ways of clearing bees from supers. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:47:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Kraus Subject: Re: Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis In-Reply-To: <007801c44fee$462d4840$715b70d1@Tom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Larry Krengel wrote: I was interested in the > use of Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis. http://www.beeworks.com/uspage5.asp It's at the bottom of the page. David __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 21:09:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Bee Go In-Reply-To: <126.4330783c.2dfb87fe@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:11 PM 6/11/2004, you wrote: > A few drops on a wodge of cotton or sponge can shift a >swarm from an inaccessible place. I've even used it to cause a new hive (having moved in a week before) to abscond from a cavity in a tree. I put a fair amount on a wad of newspaper in the top of a smoker and smoked them out. Those that I miss with the vacuum as they come out settle nearby as a swarm that can be captured in the normal manner or vacuumed up. Very useful for when a swarm has moved into a permanent home for only a short time. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 06:50:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies israelensis strain EG2215 In-Reply-To: <200406120401.i5C402R9020382@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry Krengel wrote: "Does anyone have any updated information?" Below is a fact page I got from a Google reference. Also included is a U.S. supplier of BTi. Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/biopesticides/ingredients/factsheets/factsheet_006476.htm Ecogen, Inc. 2005 Cabot Blvd. West Langhorne, PA 19047-3023 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 08:26:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies israelensis strain EG2215 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike provided a link: http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/biopesticides/ingredients/factsheets/facts heet_006476.htm Nowhere at this site is there a mention of wax moth. So I wonder if Larry might have the Bt strain incorrect OR if the site simply failed to mention wax moth. What is the strain of Bt in Certan (the product marketed for wax moth control)? Googling around, the only reference I can find for the registered wax moth control (so far) is The Beeworks (as already stated in previous posts and well documented in the BEE-L archives). David has long left this forum so I doubt he will see the current discussion. In my search I find a warning from Malcolm Sanford, "be aware that ... the material is not registered in the United States as far as I can tell, and so cannot be legally used. Always check to ensure chemicals can be legally used and they have an appropriate label before purchasing them." Quoting further from Malcolm (from http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis_2001/apjan_2001.htm), "A few years back, a biological control was found for wax moth. This was a specific strain of bacteria called Bacillus thuringiensis that proved deadly to wax moth larvae. The formulated product called Certan® was effective against moth larvae when applied as a spray on combs, but because of little demand for the product at the time, it was discontinued." Given the recent Bee Culture article about the residues of Pdb in honey, perhaps the Bt control will come back into favor and demand will grow to the point that it will be financially viable in the States. Unfortunately I imagine the "food use registration" has lapsed in the years the product has been off the market and once again US beekeepers will have their access to a safer, effect product denied. Aaron Morris - thinking I'm from the gummit and I'm here to help! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:20:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies israelensis strain EG2215 Scrolling through the site Mike listed I came across this: Non-target insects: honey bee (154-24) Cited study demonstrates that Bt israelensis has minimal toxicity to honey bees. Does that imply Bt actually has some affect on honey bees? Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:38:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies israelensis strain EG2215 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My mistake, I believe the strain B.t. aizawai is used for wax moths not B.t. israelensis (used in Mosquito Dunks) as I mentioned in my earlier posting. I assume the B.t.a. is what is available from the Canadian source though the catalog does not specify. I consulted a number of web resources and found a mention of B.t. kurstaki (which is used to combat the gypsy moth) as having been linked to the death of caged honey bees. This seems strange since the effect is contended to be on larvea. Other sources contended there was little toxicity to bees. I am still interested in investigating other means of wax moth control. My freezer is not big enough, and I find no source for the B.t.a. in the US. Am I missing any options. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:44:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Thoughts on Wax Moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the UK where, generally, the queen is kept below an excluder wax moths aren't a great problem. They aren't very attracted to comb that hasn't been bred in. This afternoon I was loking at a hive where the owner has left a beer mat soaked in Certan (BT) in the tray inder the mesh floor on the theory that wax moth larvae will chomp on it as the next best thing to a soft piece of wood. Can one of our Danish contributors tell us whether wax moths are a problem there? It is the practice in that country to renew brood combs annually and I am guessing that this will reduce the success rate of wax moths. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 19:08:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Thoughts on Wax Moths Beekeepers: Ronald Taylor has recipes for preparing and eating wax moths in his book 'Entertaining With Insects: Or, the Original Guide to Insect Cookery' Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:36:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Re: How do you tell if you have African bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I opened 80 hives today and one was the hive from hell! Black, ugly, and they followed me for 20 minutes, attempting to sting. I was adding boxes and when I removed the covers the bees came out in thousands. I captured a few and saw no sihn on them that said "beware African Honeybees". How can you tell? I bought 25 packages and 25 queens from the south this spring. Could one have been an African? Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:57:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Thoughts on Wax Moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Chris Slade (Dorset UK) said... > In the UK where, generally, the queen is kept below an excluder > wax moths aren't a great problem. Now I live a relatively small distance from Chris (around 250 miles) in the midlands and for the last 15 to 20 years waxmoths have been giving more trouble than in previous decades. The greater waxmoth (galleria mellonella) was very rare, but has become much more common. The lesser version (achroia grisella) used not to be much of a problem, but it's activities are noticed more frequently and such activities are of a more destructive nature than previously. It has been suggested that global warming is part of the cause for these changes. Some of my personal experience can be read and may give some mirth... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/waxmothbucket.html The page http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/waxmoth.html gives a few technical details and has links to waxmoth trapping and treatment as well as the life cycle. I am still looking for some nice, sharp illustrations to improve these pages... If anyone has some good pics they would get full recognition as to source. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:43:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: use of PDB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry asks about alternatives. First, Larry, in your climate I question whether any 'airing out' in the spring in necessary. When I used it (I no longer do, but that story is later) I made one application a stack, following directions. That was in September or October, depending where the supers were in the extraction process. The first time I put them on a hive was the following May, at least 5 months later. I found that amount of time was more than enough to preclude any bee/larvae damage. (I am near Albany, NY and Larry is near Chicago.) Around here we have lots of commercial beekeepers and none use PDB or anything similar. Instead, they let the bees rob the combs after extraction. While the wax moths are after the spent cocoons and not the honey, something about the robbing eliminates the wax moth larvae and makes the combs unattractive to infestation. (Perhaps someone can tell us why this is so.) Our first frost is typically about October 15, but beginning about Sept 15 we have many nights in the high 30's, and those temperatures slow down the wax moth so the pressure of infestation is relieved. In this climate, the rule of thumb is that no significant wax moth damage will result until after July 1, and in some fields nearby there are still huge stacks of supers waiting to be put on hives. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:10:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L Moderators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 This message was originally submitted by hayesg@DOACS.STATE.FL.US to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=7C269841) (61 lines) ------------------- Subject: RE: Re: [BEE-L] How do you tell if you have African bees? Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:14:48 -0400 Thread-Topic: Re: [BEE-L] How do you tell if you have African bees? thread-index: AcRRGLGXU0rkdKbgSzeyAO6w9UIS6AAL106Q From: "Hayes, Jerry" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Send a sample of at least 15 in alcohol to me Rick and I'll do a gratis FABIS and DNA test if required. We do this regularly here. Jerry Hayes FDACS/DPI, Gainesville Fl. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:25:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies israelensis strain EG2215 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Larry Krengel" > I am still interested in investigating other means of wax moth control. My > freezer is not big enough, and I find no source for the B.t.a. in the US. > Am I missing any options. Spiders. Sometimes I leave a dead hive about and find it intact much later. Then I notice a (large) spider under the roof . I do not know how to actively encourage spiders to take up residence. Does anyone? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:12:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glen van Niekerk Subject: Supplemental feeding : Brewers Yeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear All, I am planning to feed brewers yeast (a moist patty) to my bees as artificial pollen to try and stimulate brood rearing in the winter. The patty consists of brewers yeast and an acid modified sucrose solution (99% pure). The sucrose solution was tested with no ill effects. After obtaining the yeast, I then heard a lot of stories about if you feed the “wrong” kind of yeast, your bees could develop dysentery. I have a certificate of analysis for the brewers yeast: Test parameter Result Standard Total Bacteria count 2.80E5 <= 1E7 Lactic Acid Bacteria 1.80E5 <= 1E7 Wild Yeast Count Not Detected <= 1E5 Viable yeast count 2.40E10 >= 1E10 E. Coli Count Not Detected Absent Coli form Count Not Detected <= 1E2 Dry Matter 93.33 >=90% Are these parameters acceptable? Would my bees be safe?(dysentery) Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:07:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Thoughts on Wax Moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The greater waxmoth (galleria mellonella) was very rare, but has become much > more common" Greater wax moth worms can be bought in shops supplying fishermen. To breed worms, someone allows worms (fed on porridge oats or something similar if I remember) to turn into moths. I often wonder under what conditions, and how many escape. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:35:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: How do you tell if you have African bees? In-Reply-To: <1d7.237e7d99.2dfcfb80@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: Rick Green > I > bought 25 packages and 25 queens from the south this spring. Could one > have been an African? The german black bees that were very common in the southeast until the '90s are perfectly capable of behavior as you describe. I could tell you some tales. I used to catch a lot of swarms in bait hives and quite a few of them were black, runny, and mean beyond descripton. There could be some still around. Dave Green SC USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:25:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis In-Reply-To: <007801c44fee$462d4840$715b70d1@Tom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For good control of wax moth you need another strain of Bt called bacillus thuringiensis aizawi. It's sold in Europe for wax moth control by SWARM in France under the name Certan or B401. I think it's also available somewhere in the US? Max :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:03:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Thoughts on Wax Moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin & all > I often wonder under what conditions, and > how many escape. My memory on this is somewhat nebulous, but I seem to remember a TV documentary that said the moths regularly came in from the continent on currents of air and were swept into regions of UK where they would not normally survive long term. But the warmer recent conditions (and I guess natural selection of hardier moths) were allowing a larger population to survive naturally. The possibility of escapees from captive bait breeding had not occurred to me but would certainly be 'helpful' as far as the moths were concerned. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:14:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Value of drawn comb I have never taken the time to figure exactly what the value and cost of getting drawn comb would be. Too busy trying to keep up. How much honey/time does it take to draw one frame of 9 1/8,6 1/4,& shallow. Value??? not just honey & time saved, but increased honey production due to using drawn comb. Any ideas or rules of thumb. Thanks Frank Wyatt :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:36:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glen van Niekerk Subject: Re: Value of drawn comb Dear Frank, Rule of thumb (for me): Approximately 9 kg of honey to produce 1 kg of wax. 1:10 ratio Regards Glen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:18:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Value of drawn comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank asks about "increased honey production due to using drawn comb." The general rule of thumb among commercial producers of comb honey is that they get approximately 60% of the yield they would get if they were instead producing honey for extraction, using drawn comb. So, if they get 100 pounds of comb honey they would have collected approximately 170 pounds of honey for extraction if they had used drawn comb. As these guys tend to also produce tons of honey for extraction, often in the same yards as their comb honey hives, and have large enough numbers to make averages work, I think the data are pretty good. In addition, this is also my experience. As an aside, in these days of relatively high prices for extracted honey the commercial guys are charging somewhat more than 'equivalent prices for comb honey and so far there has not been a negative consumer reaction. In fact, in 30 years I have never seen such shortages of comb honey as I saw last year and it appears as if 2004 will be a repeat. (Don't believe what you see in the magazines as 'retail' prices for comb honey. As far as the Northeast is concerned, the lower end of the ranges are less than the wholesale prices!) In 2003, wholesale cut comb in 12 oz. containers sold for $3.50-$4.00, and wholesale Ross Rounds (8 oz.) sold for $2.85-$3.35. Both sold out quickly. Based on a 60% yield, the 'extracted equivalent price of the cut comb was $2.20-$2.50 (for 12 ounces) and the similar price of the Ross Rounds was $1.80-$2.10 (for 8 ounces). Both Ross Rounds and cut comb have approximately equal packaging costs but Ross Rounds are considerably less labor intensive than is cut comb. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:24:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: How do you tell if you have African bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rick said, I bought 25 packages and 25 queens from the south this spring. Could one have been an African? Could you just name the state where you bought those packages from? It is known that Africanized bees are in southern states from Texas all the way west to southern California. Your answer will help in giving some ideas to us. Remember, if a colony is attacked by a skunk the night before, it could behave very aggressive. For sure testing for Africanization would give a better answer. You can send bee samples to USDA- Bee Lab for testing. Address: Bee Research Laboratory Bldg. 476, BARC-East Beltsville, MD 20705 (301) 504-8821 Include a short description of the problem along with your name and address. There is no charge for this service. Email: SmithB@ba.ars.usda.gov Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:44:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Value of drawn comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Frank Wyatt asks about the value of drawn comb. I don't have answers for time/money/rule of thumb (although I seem to recall (probably incorrectly)) something to the effect of 11 pounds of honey required for 1 pound of beeswax. I have no idea where that figure came from or how it was determined, nor do I know how far a pound of beeswax will go towards constructing drawn comb. I have on occasion scraped dry, drawn comb from extracted honey frames to discover that there is actually very little beeswac per frame, but I've never measured. The point I wanted to make is the additional value of drawn comb when it comes to establishing new bees. Starting packages on drawn comb and having drawn comb to use with splits will make the difference of a honey crop in the first season! Bees that have to draw foundation to get established are not going to make much of a crop (if any) in their first season vs. bees on drawn comb can easily fill three or mone supers! Of course, these figures are based on the performance of my bees in my neck of the woods (upstate New York, near Saratoga). Your results may vary. So, a figure I would pull out of the hat, based on the comparison of a package of bees installed on drawn comb vs. foundation in their first year is $350 or higher. Pretty impressive. One migh be consider dedicating a few hives solely to the production of drawn comb. How? Shake a double down into a single, give the emptied box to another hive, give the remaining single a full deep of foundation frames and be amazed at how fast and how well the bees draw the combs. It's just that easy. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:33:14 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Supplemental feeding : Brewers Yeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glen has raised an interesting question. Although I have nothing = other than my own experience and anecdotal data to support what follows, = I believe the proximate composition of the yeast may well be responsible = for the development of the "dysentery" symptom. More so than any = possible contamination by bacterial organisms associated with intestinal = disorders generally, since as you have noted,the yeast manufacturers are = obviously well aware of this possibility and have quality control in = place to prevent it. Bees that are "under-nourished" to the point that a beekeeper will = resort to the expense of feeding them with protein supplements, (I am = loathe to use the phrase "starving", although I fear this may often be = the case), are already under severe stress. Under these conditions, they = are very susceptible to express the symptoms of many diseases or = sicknesses, which under good nutritional conditions they are able to = fend off. Bees of course are not unique in this behaviour, as managers = of flocks of sheep, herds of cattle, and even medical practitioners will = attest. =20 Consequently when reintroducing the bees to nutritious (we hope) diets, = it is necessary to be very careful, particularly in regard to protein = and fat levels. It is not uncommon with bees, as with most other = creatures, to induce severe intestinal disturbances when the diet is = suddenly changed from a dearth to a rich food intake. Recommended = practice here in Australia, is to feed the bees dilute sugar syrup for 5 = to 7 days, prior to introducing protein supplements, and most = importantly, IRRESPECTIVE of whether or not they have ripened honey = stores in the hive. There are many possible causes for the dysentery symptoms. A very = common and significant cause can be Nosema disease. Unfortunately, the = intestinal parasite which causes this disease may well benefit = significantly from the feeding program too. Feed the bees and you feed = the nosema, so this condition may worsen before it gets better. Nutritional imbalance can also cause problems. High protein (40% or = more) and low fat levels ( 1.5% or less), as can often be found in dried = yeasts available commercially, are substantially different to the levels = in the pollens of European plant species that European bees evolved with = ( which are more in the region of 25-28% protein and 5-8% fat). And this = is without taking into consideration the variations in the amounts of = individual amino acids and fatty acids which make up those proteins and = fats! Then we also have to consider vitamins and minerals (and there are = lots of those). As you can see feeding bees is not a simple matter. Carbohydrate feed supplementation is fairly well understood now, = and most of the practical problems have been resolved and widely = communicated. However the situation with proteins and fats is still far = from resolved. Whilst there are a number of proprietary feeds on the = market, each with their devout advocates, in truth the "jury is still = out" on them. So Glen, feeding your bees dried yeast may help them one way and = hurt them in another. There is much research needed here. Beekeepers = globally need to devise and support methods to raise funds to promote = this research. (Any brilliant ideas out there?). I would love to be able = to point you in a more immediately helpful direction, as I too am faced = with the same problem. In the past I have inadvertently done my bees = more harm than good on a number of occasions when I have tried to assist = them in times of dearth. But I have learnt a lot in the process, and = these days my girls all stand around expectantly in a big circle when I = lift the lid, so they haven't given up on me yet! Peter Detchon Western Australia (Still feeding and wondering when the pollen flow will start) =20 =20 Original Message -----=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:38:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Green Subject: Re: How do you tell if you have African bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These ugly, ugly bees cam from Georgia. Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 gothoney@aol.com honeyetc.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:23:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Thoughts on Wax Moths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Dave Cushman" wrote: > The possibility of escapees from captive bait breeding had not occurred to > me but would certainly be 'helpful' as far as the moths were concerned. They are also sold for bird food, but the producers have, I believe, given an assurance than none escape (presumably those released for food are not viable). Another potential source for the increase is the use of screens for monitoring varroa - wax moths love the safe environment under the screen - warm, plenty of food and no bees! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:54:00 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Supplementral feeding-Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>There are many possible causes for the dysentery symptoms. A very = common and significant cause can be Nosema disease<< I'm sorry but I don't agree with this - dysentery can cause Nosema but = dysentery is NOT caused by Nosema - this is a very common mistake that = has somehow become established in beekeeping circles. Nosema is present in most colonies, an outbreak of dysentery can turn it = into a very serious problem. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:54:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Value of drawn comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Frank Wyatt asks about the value of drawn comb. I don't have answers > for time/money/rule of thumb (although I seem to recall (probably > incorrectly)) something to the effect of 11 pounds of honey required > for 1 pound of beeswax... We've been around this one a few times here on BEE-L, so for those who nare really interested, a BEE-L search may be in order. Learning to search the server properly is very worthwhile. One of the key tricks is to use partial words and then check the Substring search box. If multiple words are entered, the search finds articles where the words can be found close to one another. Using quotes returns exact phrases. Also, I might mention that I put a bit of info on this topic together some time back and posted it at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm This, along with other topics that have come up here and elsewhere can be found in the index at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/menus/topics.htm allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:27:58 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Supplementral feeding-Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roger, " - dysentery can cause Nosema but dysentery is NOT caused by Nosema - = this is a very common mistake that has somehow become established in = beekeeping circles. Nosema is present in most colonies, an outbreak of dysentery can turn it = into a very serious problem." I stand corrected, thanks for that. I too had accepted the commonly held = perception as fact. Peter Detchon=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::