From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:54:14 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8368A49088 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKm9012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0407A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 85062 Lines: 1892 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:34:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: COMB HONEY AND PROPOLIS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan said "worry that the bees will be predisposed to propolize the RR supers, and make a general mess." A wonderful thing about RR's is that bees don't even try to propolize them (the actual sections) or even the frames! As long as the supers are put together properly (buy at least one preassembled super from a dealer), there is no propolis to deal with, and no necessary annual 'cleaning' of frames! As for forage in your area, Ron can best address that as he is nearby. Best of luck, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:03:41 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: cass cohenour Subject: Re: Drawing Comb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A few springs ago, I caught a swarm from a colony and installed it into a hive body of foundation. I laid the hive on a white linen sheet to shake the bees on in order to spot the queen and to ensure she made her way into the hive. The following morning, the swarm absconded fron the hive back into a cluster on an upper limb of the tall white pine from wwhich they were fetched. Again I retrieved the swarm and reinstalled it into the hive. By late afternoon the swarm had once again left the hive to thier piney abode. I decided at this point that all of the new equipment which I was using was not scented enough with and the scout pheromone on the branch was more appealing. I therefor took a jar of chrystalized honey (an old jar from a few years back) melted it the microwave, and proceeded to lightly coat the inside of the entire hive. After the forth instalation, the bees decided to make it thier home. I conjecture that once the swarm entered and explored the hive and became sticky and could not fly as easily, they stayed put. After they were clean enough to leave again, they remained because by this time the new queen had began to produce enough pheromone to hold the bees together. After a short while colony began to produce comb in abundance. Ever since this experience anytime I have a problem with bees accepting a new hive body, medium, or shallow, I lighlty coat the foundation, frames, and the inner side of the box with honey. Shortly after cleaning the box which was new and unfamaliar, it becomes famaliar and a part of the hive in which they will begin to draw comb if needed. I've even had them draw comb which was never filled. Or maybe it was just partially filled with nectar to be evaporated and stored below. Bottom Line-A light coat of honey works best, way better than sugar water. _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up – now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:15:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Drawing Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ccohenour@HOTMAIL.COM wrote of an experience where coating new equipment with honey finally enticed a finicky swarm to move in. The conclusion: "Bottom Line-A light coat of honey works best, way better than sugar water." Well, George Imirie, for whom I have the utmost respect, would type in all caps "NO, NO, NO!" And then I have no idea how he would write that you have adopted a BAD practice based on what worked for you once. You decided the swarm stayed put because the queen finally produced enough pheremones to keep the bees home after they cleaned up the honey you smeared around!? POPPYCOCK! The bees finally stayed put because the bees finally stayed put. Period. Any conclusions you make about smeared honey and queen pheremone are YOUR conclusions, you have NO IDEA what the bees were "thinking". If you want a swarm to stay put in a new box, include in the frames of foundation, ONE FRAME OF BROOD! I have never seen a swarm leave when baited thusly. NEVER! If you don't have a frame of brood, then old combs are a good enticement for a swarm to stay. The Brits, for whom I have the utmost respect, will mash up old comb and put them in a sack in the new equipment where they want to keep a swarm. They call it a "Swarm bob" or some such thing (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I have it wrong). Finally a warning: first off, the honey you smear may have AFB spores. This is why smearing honed is a BAD IDEA! Be sure of the source. Likewise you have to be wary of the source of the frame of brood (if you use one), as you do for the source of the comb if you are making a Swarm Bob. Is this a plug for beesource? Aaron Morris - thinking Swarm Bob is not to be confused with Sponge Bob! _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up - now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:10:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Drawing Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Aaron Morris" wrote: > The Brits, for whom I have the utmost > respect, will mash up old comb and put them in a sack in the new equipment > where they want to keep a swarm. They call it a "Swarm bob" or some such > thing (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I have it wrong). A Bee Bob is mentioned in old literature (please don't ask me where!) and was hung in the apiary. The idea was that swarms would cluster on it, rather than some inaccessible place like the top of a 40' tree. Not sure if it works - has anyone tried it? Agree totally that smearing honey is very bad practice; apart from disease, it could also start robbing. I wonder if the swarm was in fact a cast and the queen had not fully mated - these will often fly on the next day. The only time that I have known a prime swarm to depart was when it was installed during the day and the hive was very hot, having been stood in the blazing sun for a couple of hours. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 02:18:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Drawing Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I decided at this point that all of the new equipment which I was using was not scented enough.... Swarms captured around here are sometimes put onto new foundation intentionally for the purpose of drawing out combs. Generally, they do stay. >You decided the swarm stayed put because the queen finally produced enough pheremones to keep the bees home after they cleaned up the honey you smeared around!? POPPYCOCK! Any conclusions you make about smeared honey and queen pheremone are YOUR conclusions, you have NO IDEA what the bees were "thinking". Or if one were inclined to pedantry, ‘Post hoc, ergo propter hoc’ could be invoked. A few years ago I received a call that one of my hives had swarmed onto a low branch of a nearby tree. I had just added a deep super of drawn comb to the parent hive a few days earlier. I drove out and got the bees with a stepladder. We removed the super from the first hive and set it on a bottom board next to the original hive. Then we shook the swarm into that as a new hive. The next day I was called back and told another swarm had gone into the same tree. When I got there I found the new hive was empty. Did they leave because both hives had the same odor or was it just too close to the original hive? I took the bees to another location in the same box and this time they stayed put. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:21:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Drawing Comb/Swarm Bob MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron & all > They call it a "Swarm bob" or some such thing Like so many things in beekeeping, this is something I have dabbled with :-) In a permanent apiary you may have noticed the bees swarming on to a preferred spot on several occasions. The swarm bob provides a place that the bees feel 'comfortable' with and so they use it as a clustering spot, which is useful for the beekeeper as it simplifies collection and hiving. The device itself is a flat (usually about 250 mm square) board with a chunk of fabric formed into a lump about the size of a small door knob, the fabric can be filled or impregnated with bits of old comb or propolis as an initial attractant. The device is hung up at head height or just above with the plate horizontal and the 'bob' mounted centrally underneath. Scouting bees will be attracted by the smell and the cloth gives a good foothold for the first few bees that the rest actually hang onto. The plate provides shade from the sun and a degree of shelter from rain. I have used old scraps of carpet formed into a tight ridge and stapled from corner to corner of similar boards, once used they will be used again and again and you can detach the whole device with clustered swarm and dump them into a hive. Well worth the effort of making, and saves a fortune in labour. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:07:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: cass cohenour Subject: Re: Re;Drawimg Comb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Who's to say the brood which was placed with the swarm does not contain any diseases? When I have honey setting on my shelf for my personal use, it is because it came from the a healthy hive, because I keep my hives as healthy as I can. Does the honey become contaminated after it is sealed and set on a shelf? If so the same honey left on your bees can also become contaminated after beeing capped and eaten during winter. So the bees eat this and pass the disease on into new larval food in the spring, which is in the frame of brood you just added into the swarm to get them to stay put. I know that using honey, combs, or brood from another colony may be a risk to spread disease to another, especially if you are a beehaver and not a beekeeper. A beekeeper will know when his bees are diseased and will take measures to erradicate the problem. If you are a beehaver, who's to say the swarm is not already diseased before capture? What if you discover the hive you kept honey from for personal use is diseased shortly after extraction, and the other hives? Are you going to refund the money to everyone who purchased your disease infested honey which they purchased before you realized you had a problem? Would I go and purchase honey from a beehaver to coat my equipment with? NO! Because he is not a beekeeper. A beekeeper will stay ahead of his bees to ensure that any problems are solved before a crisis occurs. I happen to have only two people who "have" bees within flying distance of mine. The closest one is eight miles away. They are both elderly and cannot quite take care of thier own hives as they once were able. The closest one has two colonies and the other has three. I help them both and inspect thier hives thouroughly, as I do my own. Chances are is that I will detect a problem in thier hives and alleviate it before it becomes a problem for mine. How great it would bee if we lived in a world where we did not have to worry about diseases in our hives. But unfortunatly we do have to worry. That is why we buy medicines for our hives, as preventatives against and treatments for disease. A beehaver does not know any better and I would not recomend adding supers of honey to weak splits, or transferance of honey in any way to them. Actually I would not even recomend a beehaver to own any bees unless they desire to become a full fledged beekeeper. I don't use gloves during inspections, and I sterilize my hive tool with my smoker between hives to help pervent the spread of any disease. By the way, don't use antibacterial hand cleanser on your hands before inspecting a hive without gloves unless you feel the urge to get stung alot. You can use brood which may be ridden with a freshly started disease or parasite which is undectable at the time in which you it add to a swarm, and I'll use honey from a hive which I can watch for disease after the honey is removed. At least the honey does not have any mites in it . Using terrapro patties throughout the year, except during the honey flow, I have never experienced any AFB, or my hives would've went up in smoke. With using either method, there is a chance of contamination of some sort. It is up to us to keep our hives as healthy as possible, and healthy hives makes comb and healthy honey. I _________________________________________________________________ Get tips for maintaining your PC, notebook accessories and reviews in Technology 101. http://special.msn.com/tech/technology101.armx :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:25:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wayne Chesley Subject: What to do with swarms. I am a new beekeeper. I started with two packages in new hives on foundation only (Pierco and Duragilt) last year. I had an early June swarm, so ended up with three hives all of which made it through the winter quite strong. This year I had swarms from two of my hives. (I'm trying to get a handle on swarm prevention, next year I'll do better!) I've hived the prime swarms and the after swarms in deeps with new foundation. I'm feeding them sugar syrup (I get sugar for free) and they are drawing new comb very nicely. The third of my original hives may be queenless. It has been four weeks since I observed any signs of a queen (no eggs) and while there were a couple of emergency queen cells a few weeks ago, I still see no egg laying. My goal is honey production and a gradual increase in my hives (going from 2 to 8 hives is not my idea of getting into this slowly!). I also want to get into comb honey production. I would like to solicit some advice and opinions on what I should do with the swarms at this point. My thoughts are to combine one of the smaller after swarms with the queenless hive after the queen starts laying. I would leave the other swarms to build comb on new foundation and combine some of them later, at whatever time and whatever manner might be most productive. Thanks in advance for your advice. Wayne Chesley Want-Not Farm Brunswick, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:17:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Countdown to EAS 2004 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The deadline to register for the Eastern Apicultural Society of North America, Inc is rapidly approaching. Details can be found at http://easternapiculture.org/programs/2004/ Conference dates: Short Course: August 9-11; Program at: http://easternapiculture.org/programs/2004/program/sc.shtml Conference: August 11-13; Program at: http://easternapiculture.org/programs/2004/program/conf.shtml EAS conferences are a great way to spend a week immersed in beekeeping. The conferences also afford the opportunity to meet with old beekeeping friends and make new ones! I will be attending and look forward to meeting as many BEE-L subscribers as possible! Remember, there is only a week left to beat the early registration deadline! Aaron Morris - thinking EAS at Seven Springs, Pa.! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:43:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Re: What to do with swarms. Wayne, It's easy to expand when you are collecting swarms. When I originally started, I had one hive and went to 11 in a short couple months. My suggestion is to combine the smaller swarms together as you mentioned. I would go another step and replace your queens with new, for the following reasons. 1.)Prime swarms usually are the old queen leaving the hive. She may be 2 or more years old. The older the queen the less pheromones she produces, and is usually superseded. New queens are more vigorous than the old matriarch. 2.)You may or may not have queens that are inclined to swarm. Bringing in new queens helps to reduce this possiblity. Talk to other beekeepers in your area and get a queen that is working well in Maine. I feel you should always buy the best that you can find. Poor quality queens will give you horrid results.The money spent on good quality queens is money well spent. I requeen every year, and hives that are not producing as I fell they should will be requeened quickly. Good luck Frank Wyatt Eden, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:48:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Western Apicultural Society Annual Meeting, July 13-15, Missoula, MT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good morning: Several people have asked for the agenda. The registration, etc. can be found at beekeeper.dbs.umt.edu/WAS We are emphasizing problems facing the bee industry, bee conservation (native and managed bees) and new technologies, ending with a tour of Western Bee. We will have speakers from U.K., Italy, Canada, and France, in addition to U.S. Gabe Patrick, EPA Office of Pesticide Programs is the keynote speaker. Please come to Montana. You don't have to be a member of WAS, although I encourage you to join. AGENDA: 2004 Western Apicultural Society Conference July 13, 14, 15th Holiday Inn Parkside, Missoula, MT Tuesday: UM West Campus Pre-Conference Activities Morning (9:00 AM - Noon) Refresher Beekeeping Short Course (UM COT, West Campus): Jerry Bromenshenk, Patty Denke Hive Inspections for Pollinators, Growers and Apiary Inspectors (UM COT, West Campus): Jerry Bromenshenk, Jim Bach Demonstrations of Electronic Hives, Bee Mazes, Theft Recovery and Bee-Based Produce Sampling Systems (UM COT): Robert Seccomb, Steve Rice Tour of Native Plants Garden & Greenhouse (UM COT, West Campus): Marilyn Marler & Students MiteGone Formic Acid Workshop (Holiday Inn Parkside): Bill Ruzicka Afternoon (1:00 - 6:00): Holiday Inn Parkside Symposium on Pesticides & Pollinators: State of the Nation: Gabe Patrick, EPA - Feature Speaker Pesticides & Bees, Current Problems, New Solutions: Dan Mayer, Jerry Bromenshenk Improved Methods for Evaluating Pesticide Effects on Solitary & Social Bees: Edith Ladurner (Italy) States and Honey Producers Trends: Eric Mussen, Jeff Anderson International Apis Health Assessment Committee: Mandate & Activities: Dick Rogers (Canada) How To Recognize Pesticide Problems: Jim Bach North American Pollinator Campaign, Pollinator Conservation: Kimberley Winter Panel: Open Discussion on State of the Nation, Pesticide Labels, Situation in France, Canada, U.S., Grower Concerns Evening (8:00 - 9:30) WAS Directors - Pre-Conference meeting Reception at Holiday Inn Parkside (Evening Program - Photographing Pollinators ) Wednesday: WAS Conference (Holiday Inn Parkside) 8:30-8:45: Welcome and Introductions Morning Session (8:45-Noon) EPA s Perspective on Pesticide Registration: Gabe Patrick, EPA Office of Pesticides Programs State & Federal Regulations: FDA, Beekeeping & Honey Marketing: Patty Denke, MT State Entomologist Bees and the Fossil Record - MT Examples: George Stanley, UM Paleotologist Bees in Zero and 2x Gravity: Robert Madsen, Science Instructor, Dull Knife College Is Death Camus Toxic to Bees? Marilyn Marler, UM Program Specialist, Native Plants Afternoon Session (1:30 - 5:00) Bees in Uganda:Dan Mayer, Bee Consultant, formerly at WSU, Prosser Inscentinel - Bee-Based Sensor System, Andrew Durnford, U.K. Problems Facing North American Beekeeping, What s New? Eric Mussen, CA Extension Specialist Commercial Bee Attractants: Gerry Bohfalk, Scentry Biologicals Bear-proof Fences: James Jonkel, MT Fish & Wildlife Microbial Pesticides - Bee Friendly Products: Mycotech, Inc. Thursday: Tours and Lakeside Banquet 8:30 - 9:45: Guided Walking Tour, U of MT Public Gardens Buses Leave at 9:45 from University Fieldhouse, 10:00 from Holiday Inn, Parkside Noon: Box Lunch 1:00 - 2:30: Tour of National Bison Range and Visitor Center 3:00-5:00: Tour of Western Bee Manufacturing Plant, Polson 5:00: WAS Directors - End of Conference meeting 6:00-8:00: Barbecue on South Shore of Flathead Lake 9:30 P.M Return to Parkside Accommodations: Holiday Inn, 200 S. Pattee, Missoula MT 59802 406-721-8550, Fax 406-721-7427 Room Rate $89/night. Make reservations by July 1 and tell them you are attending the conference. Request hotel shuttle if you are flying in. RV campers: Jellystone RV Park 406-543-9400 Missoula KOA Kampground 406-549-0881 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:37:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re;Drawimg Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/2/04 8:33:04 AM, ccohenour@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << Using terrapro patties throughout the year, except during the honey flow, >> As Aaron said, I am going to say NO, NO, NO! When you wrote that you use TERRAPRO patties, WOW, I have to say that you have NO idea whatsoever whether your colonies have AFB or not! Terramycin DOES NOT KILL ABF in the slightest. It just HIDES the symptoms of AFB and prevents the death of the bees until you stop using Terramycin. Ask any bee SCIENTIST about this but don't ask a bee inspector or a commercial beekeeper because about 98% of them use Terramycin themselves, and really don't seem to understand that Terramycin of ANY OTHER KNOWN DRUG kills AFB spores without killing the bees. Write to Beltsville Bee Lab, and they will tell you that I am correct. Back to original subject of losing a newly captured. Bees will NOT LEAVE OPEN BROOD (eggs and larvae), and when I hive a new swarm, I ALWAYS use one frame of OPEN BROOD and 9 frames of foundation, plus plenty of 1:1 sugar syrup in a jar over the inner cover hole, and never recall of a swarm disappearing in my 72 years of beekeeping. BTW, honey is NOT the favorite food of the honey bee. Honey is a winter survival food just like hardtack for a distressed sailor, or a K-ration for a soldier sweating out a stay in a foxhole. Nectar, NOT HONEY, is the choice food of the honey bee. You are obviously trying hard to learn good beekeeping, and that is what all others should be doing rather than guessing and listening to the tales of the "good old boys". This my 72 nd season of beekeeping, having usually run over 100+ colonies for about 50 years, and BELIEVE ME - I AM STILL LEARNING, and I seek all the info I can find, but ONLY from bee scientists and bee researchers. George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 19:26:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Fibonacci sequence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A young student friend is working on a math project, and it's above my head. Are there any comments on how he interpreted my explaination of the bee family tree? Thanks "Drone has a mother. Mother has a father and mother (grandparents of drone). Grandfather has a mother, grandmother has a father and mother (great- grandparents of drone) and so on and so on making the sequence 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21…Fibonacci sequence. I am interested in Phi/phi and numbers closely related to it that occur in nature." :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:26:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard Kogan Subject: Swarm Bob Dear Bee-L; Richard Taylor discusses Swarm Bob's on page 100 of the revised How To Do It Book of Beekeeping. He describes it as as a swarm bait. I don't think I have ever seen it used - has anybody tried it? Howard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:00:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: double queen hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, Well the 2 queen hive is roaring along. I set-up 2 nucs to develop into = a full hive. And they are doing just that. The nectar flow here in = Eastern Ontario is very good in my area. I had to throw a deep and a = medium box on. My newly requeened carny hive has run into some = problems, the queen has vanished. After 7 days I went into the hive and = removed the cage. and I pulled 1 frame out and saw eggs so I was happy. = I didn't bother looking any farther. I didn't see her on the frame = either. 2 weeks later I have no eggs just capped. I'll be glad to get = my yard back to strength so I can make my own nucs for just such an = emergency. I'm still suffering from the winter of 2002/3. I'm having = a seamstress make up a small bee suit for my son age 6. I'm tired of = telling him to get back :) Kent Stienburg :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:55:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Fibonacci sequence Comments: cc: amorris@uamail.albany.edu In-Reply-To: <200407032326.i63NFxR9012250@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:26 PM 7/3/2004, you wrote: >Are there any comments on how he interpreted my explaination of the >bee family tree? Looks about right to me. There are a fair number of web sites on the topic: http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibnat.html#bees http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_17.htm -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:07:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Drawing Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The following morning, the swarm absconded fron the hive back >into a cluster on an upper limb of the tall white pine from wwhich they were fetched. Again I retrieved the swarm and reinstalled it into the hive. By late afternoon the swarm had once again left the hive to thier piney abode. Cut a piece from an old queen excluder or from one of the new plastic excluders to cover the entrance . You can make many from an old excluder or new plastic excluder.. After you hive the swarm place the piece over the entrance for a few days or until the bees accept their new home. Less work than the other methods posted and always works. Even if you do not remove for a week the only problem is a few upset drones! Make sure another entrance is not available as I have seen an entire swarm pass through a single small hole! Adding a frame of brood normally works but when you hive the swarm under the tree the bees are clustered on (common practice)even with adding a frame of brood and the scouts return with a new location the swarm many times will leave. Most swarms seem to move to an area outside the hive and then wait for the scouts to find the permanent location. I have often wondered why if the bees have been preparing to swarm for the last ten or so days why not go from the hive directly to the new final location? Duh! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:52:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Fibonacci sequence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tim & Tim I have recently received permission to rehash an article on this topic into a webpage. The original appeared in the Feb 2004 issue of An Beachaire (Irish Beekeeper). I will put up a link on this list when the page is done (a week or so). Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:04:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Edward R. Boutin" Subject: relocation of swrms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Harrison wrote: "I have often wondered why if the bees have been preparing to swarm for the last ten or so days why not go from = the hive directly to the new final location?" This is another reason why bees are so close to my heart. A little = procrastination can be a good thing. They might have scouted a good = location but in the time that it takes to leave the mother hive and = collect themselves, the situation might have changed-the tree is downed = by a beaver etc. Besides, they want to know who among the bees have made = the committment. Some bees are all buzz and no action! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:09:10 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stephen Putnam Subject: Re: relocation of swrms In-Reply-To: <001e01c461c7$8016f1b0$0200a8c0@daisy> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Edward R. Boutin wrote: > Bob Harrison wrote: > "I have often wondered why if the bees > have been preparing to swarm for the last ten or so days why not go from the > hive directly to the new final location?" They do occasionally - I saw a swarm leave one of my hives a few weeks ago, & fly straight to one of my bait hives. -- ================================================================== Stephen Putnam http://www.st-ives-vet.co.uk/ St Ives Veterinary Surgery St Ives, Cornwall, UK sputnam@st-ives-vet.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 18:51:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: A Swarm Bob MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howard wrote: > Richard Taylor discusses Swarm Bob's on page 100 of the revised How To Do It > Book of Beekeeping. He describes it as as a swarm bait. I don't think I > have ever seen it used - has anybody tried it? ********** If a swarm bob might be a tennis ball hanging in a length of used nylon stocking, mimicking the beginings of a hanging swarm cluster, I have used one and the swarms that issued that spring paid no attention to it. The swarm bob was hanging twenty feet in front of the hives. (Once, I captured a queen as a swarm was flowing out of a hive. I placed her in a small, perforated, clear plastic cage and hung the cage where I wanted the swarm to cluster, twenty feet in front of the hive. The bees paid no attention to her.) Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@fast.net (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 39.95 N 75.53 W :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:44:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: relocation of swrms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Stephen & all > I saw a swarm leave one of my hives a few weeks ago, > & fly straight to one of my bait hives. I can confirm Stephen's observations... On one occasion the bees were streaming between the hives in a very narrow corridor, almost like a flow of liquid in an imaginary pipeline. The mid point was narrower than the ends and they mostly went straight into the receiving hive, with very little build up of clustering bees. The whole action was only a minute or so (I did not keep accurate count) and the whole episode looked rather like an animated cartoon, or at least how a cartoon might illustrate such an event. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:26:12 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Introduction of Queen w/BZ cage-How? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recently installed a few queens using the JZ/BZ cages. Unfortunately, = I think I put them in incorrectly. I "hung" them from the top bar with = the opening pointing up. The SOP that I have seen is that she should come = out onto a frame of brood, eggs and MT cells. I did this two days ago. = Should I open up the hives and turn the cages around? Two of the colonies were splits. The third was a replacement for last years queen who was doing = a marginal job. I was going to install a fourth in a previous split, but when I pulled = the queen, I had her on my hive tool, and put her on a fence post. I = "chopped" her, but before I could ascertain whether I had done the deed, she fell = off the post. Of course I had the upper body sitting there, and while I did = a search, did not see her. When re-queening, I normally would kill the = queen one day, then install the new one the next. This is what I did with the splits. So, I figured I would wait a day (been two), and look for = her/find etc, and install the new queen. Thanks...JK Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen =D5hr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:15:56 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: Introduction of Queen w/BZ cage-How? Comments: To: Tim Arheit In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040705133706.0393e980@pop3.wcoil.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Tim. The Queen flew back to the hive. Amazingly, I found her almost immediately yesterday. However, I got her on my hive tool, and just as I was about to do the deed, she flew off. In the pile of crap that came in the equipment from the other beekeeper, I saw some small, plastic boxes that I figure are for catching the queens. At the time I figured I would never use then, and put them somewhere. Of course, when you need it, you can never find it... Incidentally, the same hive has some rather developed supersedure cells. By developed I mean about 75% to the capping stage, and full of jelly. It seems very odd, as there are about two frames of fresh eggs, and several frames with a great brood pattern. This was my first split, and it was totally FUBAR'd. I moved them in there with several great looking queen cells, hoping to have them raise a local queen. In a panic, I installed a queen, but there might have been an unmated one that found her way back after I shook out the bees prior to putting the new Queen in. I emptied the bodies, and shook all the bees out, as I could not locate the queen.) Split was done in May. When the inspector saw the hive (a month ago), they had a supersedure cell of grand size capped, and several days later was in the process of being torn down, although it looked as though the occupant may have emerged whole, rather than being disposed of. Thanks again...JK Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:43:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Re;Drawimg Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh dear! How do we tackle this? "cass cohenour" wrote: > Who's to say the brood which was placed with the swarm does not contain any > diseases? Yes, it might - so I would not do it, although others regard it as good practice. > When I have honey setting on my shelf for my personal use, it is > because it came from the a healthy hive, because I keep my hives as healthy > as I can. So you test for viruses? > Does the honey become contaminated after it is sealed and set on > a shelf? Seems unlikely if the jar is properly sealed! > If so the same honey left on your bees can also become contaminated > after beeing... Er, perhaps one too many 'e's? > I know that using honey, combs, or brood from another colony may be a risk to spread > disease to another So why take the risk? > especially if you are a beehaver and not a beekeeper. A > beekeeper will know when his bees are diseased and will take measures to > erradicate the problem. Not all diseases are obvious at all times- for example, EFB and many viruses cxan be presnt without any outwardly visible symptoms at certain times - but they are still present. > If you are a beehaver, who's to say the swarm is > not already diseased before capture? No-one. But the same applies if you are a beekeeper. (Incidentally, is not 'beehaver' the most dreadful word? Who on earth coined it? Nearly as bad as 'U'!) > Are you going to refund the money to everyone who purchased your disease infested > honey which they purchased before you realized you had a problem? Bee diseases do not affect humans - so presumably not. > Would I go and purchase honey from a beehaver to coat my > equipment with? NO! This misses the point. By coating your equipment in honey you are inviting every bee in the area to the party - and some of those may bring disease. Please do not tell us that you know every colony in the area and that there is no disease! > I happen to have only two people who "have" bees within flying > distance of mine. The closest one is eight miles away. Feral colonies? Beekeepers that you do not know about? > Chances are is that I will detect a problem in thier hives and alleviate it before it becomes a > problem for mine. Chance? > How great it would bee if we lived in a world where we did not > have to worry about diseases in our hives. But unfortunatly we do have to > worry. Well, at least we agree about something! > That is why we buy medicines for our hives, as preventatives against > and treatments for disease. Prophylactic treatment? Now we disagree again. > I don't use gloves during inspections, and I sterilize my hive tool with my smoker > between hives to help pervent the spread of any disease. Smokers do not sterilise hive tools, unless you have discovered a new smoker fuel!!! And how do you sterilise your hands? Blow torch? > Using terrapro patties throughout the year, except during the honey flow, I have never experienced any AFB... So you misuse antibiotics then? Have you considered that you might have AFB but are simply masking it? > I ??? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:46:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Angela and Keith Copi Subject: Getting off the TM treadmill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have only been keeping bees for a few years. When I started I was = instructed by the helpful folks at the local bee club to dust with TM = every spring for foulbrood prevention. From information gleened from = monitoring this group, along with other sources, it seems that the = better approach is to monitor for foulbrood and to take action only when = needed. How do I get off the TM treadmill? Do I just stop using it and = see what happens? Keith :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:19:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Randy & Isa Chase Subject: Re: Getting off the TM treadmill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I attempted to go "cold Turkey" with the use of TM with the intention of monitoring and lost most of my hives in a short period of time. I essentially had to start all over again which required a significant amount of time and resources. If you have been using TM on a regular basis and do attempt to reduce or eliminate its regular use, have a prevention plan in place and be ready to invest the time and effort it will take to be successful. Good luck! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:50:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Getting off the TM treadmill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have repeatedly headr now retired scientist, and arguably the top proponent of TM use during most of his career and now one of the strongest proponents to get off the TM treadmill lecture on the topic. Dr. H.R. Shimanuki recommends cold turkey, a yard at a time. The first yard to pick is the yard closest to home, mainly because that is the yard you are most able to watch the closest. If there are any AFB outbreaks the recommendation is the usual elimination by fire. I have been looking very closely at the AFB issue recently, as I just wrote an article for my local association newsletter on the topic. Getting off the treadmill is a lofty goal. When I first started keeping bees I vowed no chemicals of ANY KIND in my hives. That worked for the first six or seven years, but the year AFB hit I lost 5 out of 6 hives. Ahh, the good ol' days when I kept 6 hives. Anyway, since then I have been on the TM treadmill. I have not had the courage to follow Shim's advice to start with my closest yard. The thing that bothers me most about AFB is if you have a vegetative case, all the books, and the State of New York dictate that you kill the bees and burn the hive. This treatment is rather severe. Talk about the cure killing the patient! TM has been a wonderful treatment for over 5 decades. Unfortunately, resistence will continue to increase, and this generation of beekeepers will pay the price for the almost free ride enjoyed by the beekeepers of the last half century. If one looks back to the first half of the 20th century, treating AFB provided room for saving one's bees. Frames were still burned, but the bees were spared by shaking them into new boxes fitted with frames of foundation. The fresh start broke the cycle of AFB by separating the bees (and brood) from the Paenibacillus larvae larvae spores. I searched the BEE-L archives for the specifics of shaking the bees, but all I came up with in previous discussions was a general wondering where the method was originally described. I was able to track it down at the digitized E.F. Phillips Beekeeping Collection at Mann Library (Cornell University) at: http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ The full description can be found in _Beekeeping_ by Everett Franklin Phillips, (1878-1951), pages 404-408. Special note should be made about the cautions of the potential for robbing during the shaking of the bees. Interestingly enough, Phillips wrote _Beekeeping_ long before the introduction of Oxytetracycline! It seems that Oxytet, like the Langstroth hive itself, is both godsend and bane, a double edge sword. Modern beekeeping could not exist without the moveable frame hive. Yet it is these same moveable frames that harbor so much that fouls our bees, be it AFB spores or build up of chemical residues. There is a lot to look at in this observation, far more than I will write here. So, how to get off the TM treadmill. Well, one way is to go cold turkey and be prepared to burn baby, burn! More preferable would be shake it baby, shake it! You'll be off the treadmill and you'll have renewed frames. Aaron Morris - thinking shake your booty! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:22:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Getting off the TM treadmill In-Reply-To: <000a01c463b3$743961f0$02836542@gatewaysystem> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angela and Keith Copi wrote: > How do I get off the TM treadmill? Do I just stop > using it and see what happens? I would do just that if you are a hobby beekeeper. You will get lots of opinions on this. Dusting is a good, accepted preventive action. Patties are not. The first hives I purchased (in 1991) had AFB when I bought them. I burned them and started fresh. I treated by dusting for a few years, but found that the incidence of AFB is fairly low (about 4% in Maine, which includes the 60,000 hive brought in each year). I also noticed it was most prevalent with certain beekeepers (most no longer keep bees) but who did use TM. When they shared a field with other beekeepers, they spread the disease, so I stayed home and did not offer my hive for pollination. If I was a commercial pollinator, I would dust. Since I am a hobby beekeeper, I do not. But I do keep the TM in reach, not to "cure" but as a preventative if AFB is in the area. If I do get AFB again, I will burn the equipment, just as I did when I started. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:22:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Getting off the TM treadmill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have only been keeping bees for a few years. When I started I was > instructed by the helpful folks at the local bee club to dust with TM > every spring for foulbrood prevention. From information gleened from > monitoring this group, along with other sources, it seems that the > better approach is to monitor for foulbrood and to take action only > when needed. How do I get off the TM treadmill? Do I just stop > using it and see what happens? There has been a great deal of discussion here on BEE-L about use of oxytetracycline (oxytet, OTC) , so I won't rehash it all here. In short, there is no simple, one size-fits-all answer, although there are some who hasten to say there is. The answer in any specific case depends on the purpose to which the bees are put, whether honey is to be extracted or not, and when, the neighbourhood (and jurisdiction) in which they are kept, the size of the operation involved, the history of the equipment, presence/absence of resistant AFB locally, abilities of the beekeeper, etc. That having been said, much of the discussion archived here was years ago, when detection methods for AFB were cruder and when the sensibilities of producers, consumers and regulators were different, and before resistant disease strains became as widespread as they are today. In recent years, the thresholds for routine detection used to search for chemicals in food has moved from parts per million to parts per billion. Also, during that time, additional methods of AFB detection and control have matured (hygienic stock, radiation sterilization, bee and honey sampling) offering other potential solutions. Resistant AFB has continued to spread in North America, making OTC less useful from AFB control. OTC, however, continues to be useful as a preventative against EFB, and is a useful weapon against AFB in many regions to this day. As for prophylactic OTC use -- in the absence of clinical AFB symptoms -- popular opinion is now moving against such applications. Nonetheless, preventative OTC application is still routinely practiced by many expert beekeepers, without causing detectable residues, and can be essential to survival where the locality or the equipment has a strong history of disease. Nonetheless, with new detection methods, occasionally minute OTC residues are being found in honey, and studies are ongoing currently to try to better correlate timing and methods of usage to the risk of finding detectable residues. Because OTC merely suppresses outbreaks, as opposed to actually killing the disease, many claim the OTC use makes the situation worse. However, used wisely, by capable beekeepers, OTC applications can keep the disease -- even in badly infected equipment or a badly infected region -- from reaching the stage in its development where it 'blossoms' and generates billions upon billions of spores. In the absence of new infections, over time, the spore load in hives naturally diminishes due to natural replacement of comb, and natural attrition, and, if outbreaks can be prevented entirely, the background spore level in hives decays quite rapidly to the point where the risk are low and reduced OTC applications -- or none -- may be considered. At that point, any future breakdowns should be destroyed or disinfected by radiation. Only by experimenting can the beekeeper find out for certain what the natural breakdown rate (and subsequent loss of bees and equipment) will be. Some, due to the history of their outfit or the known practices of neighbouring beekeepers, know it will be high and cannot take the risk. Others may be able to go 'cold turkey' with little risk. Those who suggest stopping prophylactic OTC applications, especially in equipment that contains a high spore load, are actually advocating taking a chance on having a massive breakdown, which, once spread around, will increase the future risk to a certainty. That is the factor that every beekeeper must consider, and the beekeeper must determine how quickly and efficiently he/she can find and dispose of any infected material. For those who seldom examine their hives, for whatever reason, and/or lack the ability to locate, identify and deal with AFB when it ocurs, prophyactic use may be a wise solution, all things considered. As for applying OTC to an infection when discovered, rather than destroying the frame or hive, it seems to me that the practice is similar to closing the barn door after the horse has departed, but it may still be a valid course in some conditions, particularly where the beekeeper has no hope of overcoming the disease. These decisions are not simple. Assuming that practices and solutions are not locally mandated by law, only after assembling all the available facts and considering them carefully with possible outcomes, can the best course of action be determined for the situation in question. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:49:13 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Getting off the TM treadmill In-Reply-To: <63D883CB0A1B204EB053673DD882CB53933559@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Emne: Re: [BEE-L] Getting off the TM treadmill > I have been looking very closely at the AFB issue recently, as I > just wrote > an article for my local association newsletter on the topic. Getting off > the treadmill is a lofty goal. When I first started keeping bees > The thing that bothers me most about AFB is if you have a vegetative case, > all the books, and the State of New York dictate that you kill > the bees and > burn the hive. This treatment is rather severe. Talk about the cure > killing the patient! The tratment we use in Denmark (Official) you will find in english on my web! AFB is regulated by law! http://apimo.dk/afb/bipest.htm and http://apimo.dk/afb/regulation.htm We are not killing the bees unless they are not able to survey the treatment. Best regards Jorn Johanesson maybe the best and Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. With integrated update facility. New registration policy hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:00:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Getting off the TM treadmill In-Reply-To: <63D883CB0A1B204EB053673DD882CB53933559@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > So, how to get off the TM treadmill. Well, one way is to go cold turkey and > be prepared to burn baby, burn! More preferable would be shake it baby, > shake it! You'll be off the treadmill and you'll have renewed frames. Aaron, not sure what you mean here, since you will still have to burn the frames. My guess is you mean that you will start fresh with new frames. The procedure is to shake the bees onto new frames and foundation in a new hive. You destroy the old frames. (You can harvest the honey for your own consumption, and if you can segregate the wax, use it for your own candles, but I would not.) You can salvage the hive bodies by controlled burning of the inside of the box. (The "chimney fire" method is spectacular.) But the frames are lost. There are ways (ETOH(?) gas and radiation) to sterilize the frames and boxes but few states have the facilities and they are really only good for those who have lots of infected equipment, such as commercial operations. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:12:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L: approval required (7B488A8C) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> You'll be off the treadmill and you'll have >> renewed frames. > > Aaron, not sure what you mean here, since you will still have to burn > the frames. My guess is you mean that you will start fresh > with new frames. Yes, you still have to burn infected frames. Read Phillips at the Mann Library. I didn't rewrite what he wrote so well. > radiation) to sterilize the frames and boxes > few states have the facilities True. See http://www.steris.com/isomedix/facility.cfm > and they are really > only good for those who have lots of infected > equipment, such as commercial operations. Or if many beekeepers pool equipment to fill a run at the facility. That has been done many years at the facility in Worcester, Mass. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:32:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Getting off the TM treadmill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You will get lots of opinions on this. Dusting is a good, accepted > preventive action. Patties are not. In my personal experience, patties were the best way to apply OTC, and eliminated all signs of AFB in my outfit. Last I heard, OTC patties were still approved by government in the USA, and sold by Mann Lake. Has this changed? I have researched the case against patties, and found it to be an unproven hypothesis that appealed to the popular imagination and spread like wildfire. The rapid escalation of an unguarded comment by a researcher when asked to speculate at a public meeting, is a sterling example of how quickly speculation turns into rumour, and rumour into 'fact'. It is also a great demonstration of why we should doubt much of what we hear, and illustrates why I personally have little respect for many of the 'rules' that self-proclaimed beekeeping gurus promulgate, or much of the 'lore' that fills many books. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Currently on holiday :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:40:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Sucrose octanoate ester MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone on the list used Sucroside? Any comments? Walter Weller :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:47:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: patties or dust for AFB control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like many, I have heard Dr. Shiminuki, for some 40 years 'THE' USDA expert on AFB, speculate on the over-use of patties as being the primary (not only) factor in bringing us OTC resistant AFB. I recall his points as: 1. For about 50 years of using dust there were no reported cases of resistance. 2. Two-three years after the introduction of patties, resistance started showing up in several geographic areas. 3. An 'advantage' of the patties compared to dust is that they last longer in the hive, meaning fewer trips by the beekeeper. 3. As a known way to encourage resistance is to continually expose the organisms to an antibiotic, and the patties are 'on' longer than is the dust, it is possible or likely that use of the patties caused resistance to appear sooner than otherwise. THERE IS NO PROOF OF THIS. However, the logic is compelling and if one does not have resistance now, I personally believe it would be foolish to start using patties. As to getting off the TM treadmill, I know those who never got on and don't see AFB. I also know those who had total breakdown, were ruthless in burning, and now have not treated for close to 10 years. I also know one beekeeper who tried to 'get off' and gave up when (in the second year) he saw AFB in every yard and burned about 5% of his equipment. These beekeepers range from 10 to 300 hives. And two of those who do not treat have about 300 hives each. If you are a hobbyist, I personally urge you to 'get off'. Stop buying nucs or hives from others (regardless of how much you may trust them) unless you can isolate them from your other bees and equipment for 2 full seasons, while you do not treat and observe them for disease. If you get AFB, burn the equipment and shake the bees onto foundation and start over. I have been criticized for saying it before...but I see the 'problem' as the migratory commercial beekeeper who is spreading resistant AFB far and wide, as (s)he controls (but does not eliminate) it by use of illegal drugs at who knows what dosage. If you don't think it is going on, get your head out of the sand! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:23:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: patties or dust for AFB control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/07/04 16:51:36 GMT Daylight Time, Lloyd@ROSSROUNDS.COM writes: <> Do American beekeepers follow the British tradition of rotating combs? I can well understand why a large-scale beek wouldn't need the work, but if you only have a few hives, then its good practice to give each hive a couple of frames of foundation every year, and melt the oldest combs. Mark them with the year's queen colour to keep track. That way old combs which may contain AFB spores are removed, and there's that much less chance of infection building up. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:57:33 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Honey bound question. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have noticed that when the bees are fed syrup to draw out comb (as in = a package or split), they sometimes fill up the comb to the point of restricting the area for brood. I have read that bees will move honey = up into the supers to make room for brood. 1. Is this true? 2. Could this present a problem with extracted honey, since what they = are moving is most likely the syrup they "packed away?" I have this situation in a few instances, and have always stopped = feeding when the top body was 80-90% drawn out. One hive this year really took = off, and packed the first super in about a week. I have two splits who = appear to be getting onto the same situation, and wonder what happens when supers = are put onto the hives. I am going on Holiday for a week, and do not want = them to run out of room. JK Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen =D5hr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:40:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Honey bound question. Comments: To: jkriebel@SPEAKEASY.NET In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:57 PM 7/7/2004, you wrote: > I have read that bees will move honey up >into the supers to make room for brood. >1. Is this true? Yes, I've seen this in my observation hive. It was interesting to watch thick comb filled with honey gradually being torn down to the thickness of normal brood comb, cleaned out and packed with brood over about a weeks time. Some hives seem to do this readily, yet others will pack the brood chambers with honey and are reluctant to move it up (much more so if you only have foundation on top). >2. Could this present a problem with extracted honey? It certainly could. I don't know if there are any rules of thumb on this issue. Typically I only need to feed though the first hive body and then there is enough of a flow on for the 2nd body. By the time the supers are added there is little (if any) sugar water left in the comb. But it appears the same as honey at this point so it's difficult to determine how much is really left. If they have a lot of it you can extract a couple of frames, save the extracted syrup for feeding and return the empty combs to the hive providing more space for laying or honey. (After all the syrup in the hive has already served it's purpose, drawing comb.) -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:01:30 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Kim Flottum of Bee Culture Magazine Kim Flottum, editor of Bee Culture magazine, Chairman of the Eastern Apicultural Society, man about town, past president of the Ohio Beekeepers Association, and all-around nice guy will be having some minor plumbing work done this week. This should be of interest to readers of this list because the pipes needing work are connected directly to his heart. The procedure is supposed to be a very boring and run-of-the-mill sort of thing for the doctors who will do the work, but Kim will be benched for a bit of recovery for an indeterminate period. So, effective immediately: 1) Prayer can't hurt. Say one for him, if you know one. 2) The address for sending get-well cards is: Kim Flottum AI Root Company 623 W. Liberty St. Medina, OH 44256 (And no, I'm not giving out his home address.) 3) Kim has bummed many a smoke from many a beekeeper over the past few years that he has been trying to cut down. All such future requests from Kim should be denied. 4) Single Malt Scotch? You're joking, right? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 20:01:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: patties or dust for AFB control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Like many, I have heard Dr. Shiminuki, for some 40 years 'THE' USDA expert on AFB, speculate on the over-use of patties as being the primary (not only) factor in bringing us OTC resistant AFB. To me that is a very sad thing to see at the end of a distinguished career. So much good work, then an incautious statement. I'd be curious to hear what Bill Wilson, the equally distinguished inventor of the opatty has to say. I know what Mann Lake, the firm that obtained approval, had to say when I last asked them. > 1. For about 50 years of using dust there were no reported cases of resistance. During that time, smart beekeepers (including moi) were using sulfa. Few thought that OTC was very effective and OTC was a secondary treatment, so OTC was not really under pressure to perform. Sulfa was so potent that it would clean up really nasty infections, like Tylosin is reported to do. OTC was _always_ a weak sister. > 2. Two-three years after the introduction of patties, resistance started showing up in several geographic areas. That was about the time that beekeepers had stopped using sulfa long enough to discover that OTC was not nearly the drug that sulfa was, and to start to have big problems. Big problems call for novel solutions. > ...the logic is compelling To many 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' is compelling logic, and sufficient grounds for reaching conclusions, but I don't find it compelling at all. The rest of the argument is merely attractive conjecture without a scrap of science to back it up. Should someone try to prove it, and publish on the topic, I would be more inclined to give it some credence, but no one -- AFAIK -- has. Wonder why? Personally, I cannot imagine how the use of extender patties by beekeepers could have had anything whatsoever to do with the large increase in antibiotic resistant bacteria _of all types_ that were being discovered in many diverse places at about that same time as resistant AFB turned up, and while the mutant AFB was being spread widely and indiscrimately by the international trade in honey. As I have said before, we find firemen at the site of many fires, but that does not mean that firemen caused those fires. Patties are associated with some stubborn cases of AFB precisely because they are effective at fighting outbreaks and were tried after other methods were found ineffective. > THERE IS NO PROOF OF THIS. Exactly. I used OTC patties for at least three years and AFAIK there was _no_ change in the susceptibility of the spores found in my samples, and there were zero outbreaks in my 3,000 or so hives. The spores (there were some) in our honey samples were examined annually by Beaverlodge technicians. Sorry to be so disagreeable, but science demands proof. Patties worked for me. That's my proof. Where's theirs? YMMV. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ On a long break from blogging. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::