From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:51:03 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.8 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B33949075 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDKP012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0407D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 131758 Lines: 2905 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 20:21:48 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: Kashmir Bee Virus or Imidacloprid? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen wrote:- Yesterday one of my coworkers mentioned he'd heard on Paul Harvey's radio > commentary about the Kashmir virus killing bees in B.C., Canada. > > Last night I came across this: > http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/displayarticle1585.html > > Does anyone have more information to offer than what appeared in the B.C. > newspaper article? I followed the link and was fascinated by the story about problems with Kashmir Bee Virus now being experienced in B.C. After the recent thread on "Silent Spring in Europe", I did some background reading on Imidacloprid which is easily accessed on the www. On reading the KBV story, I was immediately reminded of a statement made by Stan Sandler in a submission he made to The Pesticide Advisory Committee in Canada. I quote:- "Bayer claims in many of its publications that the problems with bees are due to disease, not this insecticide. But I would draw your attention to this quote, from the label of Premise 75, a Bayer product with 75% imidacloprid and 25% inert used to kill termites and ants (other social insects like bees): "Premise causes a range of effects in termites, they stop feeding and are unable to maintain their colony. A second effect, exclusive to Premise, is called Premise plus Nature. This product makes termites susceptible to infection by naturally occurring organisms. Either way, the termites die and your home is protected". Exactly, my point, weaken the colony of bees with lethal and sublethal effects and surely disease will set in, and it is crass to use this effect to advertise a product, and then use it to blame beekeepers' problems on diseases." There have been too many reports of "unexplained bee deaths" and unusual bee disease responses by beekeepers around the world in recent years. Something strange is going on, and its global. Coincidentally so is Imidacloprid! Peter Detchon (in Western Australia, where coincidentally there has also been inadequately explained bee deaths, poor honey crops and extensive use of Imidacloprid.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:52:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Peters Subject: Small Hive Beetle Control (Aethina tumida) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First year beekeeper running Italians. I am interested in control with physical traps or "soft" chemicals, or biologicals. Any ideas such as design or lures/pheremones?Thanks,David Peters,(until now,LURKER). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:51:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: weights? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well it would help if we knew what type of hive you use, and the type of frame, the type of timber used etc. For example there would be a vast difference in the roof weights if the hive was made of timber or expanded polystyrene! Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "hbee" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 3:06 PM Subject: [BEE-L] > Greetings! > Where can I get an "expert" statement on the weights of the following items? > I searched the archives with no result. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:43:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: After Bear Damage and multiple stings? Seems I am always asking for help with these two hives - but, a bear demolished them while I was on vacation. They were situated in the backyard of a friend's house on a hillside, 35 miles east of Seattle. Anyway - what was two hives is now combined into one, they were pretty huddled together so I am assuming that there is a queen in there somewhere. Concern #1, Will they stay? I moved the bees only 80 feet, up the hill and inside a chain fence. This was just before dusk and there was no visible fanning action but there seemed to be a lot of bees performing 'play flights' as though they were trying to learn the new position. But, large clumps were just hanging off both sides of the *new* hive. Concern#2, There are now 4 western boxes filled with bees and 1 super of foundation on top of an excluder - how to prevent swarming? Concern #3, I got a lot of stings tonight, two on my neck (before I noticed how seriously 'upset' they were) and about 20 on my ankles. I had a brief, 2 minutes?, episode of sweating & palpitations about 30 minutes afterward which I attributed to the stings. Nothing else, but that was the most stings I ever got in one day. Is this something for a guy Bush's age (!) to worry about? BTW- The all plastic Pierco frames I use for brood came through this fairly unscathed, the wooden frames with Pierco inserts were ruined by being chewed-up. Lesson? Stick to city beekeeping, I guess. 8^) TFL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:39:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lesli St. Clair" Organization: Ithaca College Subject: Plasticell vs duragilt MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks for the many replies (to me privately) on the difference. As a new beekeeper, I'm always glad to learn from those who have gone before me. -- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Lesli St. Clair Systems Administrator, Ithaca College lstclair@ithaca.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:31:50 -0400 Reply-To: Kate Henderson Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kate Henderson Subject: Re: Bear damage and multiple stings Milt,Yes, you should be concerned over the reaction to the stings. You should keep on hand an EPIPEN, which is an emergency dose of epinephrine in a single self administrating dose. Its by prescription, but I never had a problem getting my Doctor to write a script. Take it with you when you work the bees. Keep it in a shaded place, not in direct sun.Better to be safe than sorry. Of course the bees will be aggressive and out of sorts after the bear attack. I would leave them alone for awhile and let them adjust to the new location and to being combined. You can just observe them from outside and get a good idea if foraging is continuing and normal activity is resuming. My bees tend to cluster outside in very warm weather. Kate :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:37:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: queen cell failure to thrive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, The queen cell in question was a swarm cell. Over the course of three weeks I saw the comb drawn out and the queen cup started. Last week the queen visited the frame and laid eggs in all the cells, even in the queen cup. This was observed on Friday July 16. On Tuesday the 20'Th The egg was hatched and the larva was swimming in royal jelly. The few minutes the frame was out the nurse bees were visiting the cell. Today I was adjusting a colony removed from a house and decided to take a look at the cell. This is my reason for writing. The cell was empty. What would cause this? Thomas J. Martin Shippensburg, Pennsylvania :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:48:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Advice on Bad Combs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Josh said: I have found that putting a unwaxed frame in the middle of the brood nest helps prevent swarming. Foundation in the center of the brood nest does very little to prevent swarming. An MT drawn comb is a better choice by far. > The key is that there should be sealed brood on both sides of the unwaxed frame, then the bees are forced to draw it out The bees will draw out sooner most foundation put in the brood nest but foundation does not provide the queen room to lay eggs . . > Also, I have found that bees will draw out 9 frames just as well as ten unwaxed frames when mine are on a good honeyflow. All George and others were trying to point out Josh was that the spacing of nine causes problems when trying to get good brood comb.Using ten at first is the best way in my opinion for brood comb & honey supers but many use nine foundation in supers. I do not. I prefer ten when using foundation. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:29:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle Control (Aethina tumida) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David asks: First year beekeeper running Italians. I am interested in control with physical traps or "soft" chemicals, or biologicals. Any ideas such as design or lures/pheremones? The "West" trap sold by Dadant is what you are looking for in my opinion. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:17:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Davy Subject: Kashmir Bee Virus Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a very interesting discussion of neonicotinoids (Imidacloprid or Prescribe is one)in the May/June issue of Apiculture News, a University of California, Davis newsletter , website is http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen/news.cfm. The discussion there puts forth the theory that neonicotinoids such as Imidacloprid cause neural damage to bees and they are unable to keep up their functions such as finding their way back home, therefore causing a slow decline of the hive. Steve Davy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:14:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: queen cell failure to thrive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/07/04 01:00:17 GMT Daylight Time, tommi94@EMYPEOPLE.NET writes: <> They changed their minds about swarming, and ate the contents. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:30:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: queen cell failure to thrive In-Reply-To: <000001c47044$d94dd420$fc793b42@your> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-410B2BD9; boundary="=======4641F0=======" --=======4641F0======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-410B2BD9; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The cell was empty. What would cause >this? >Thomas J. Martin I see this fairly often. Bees building, and then tearing down queen cells. Building more, and then tearing them down, too. With only one cell started, it could be that the bees just didn't want a cell started. With cells constantly being started and torn down...I'm not sure, but I have the feeling that it may be a caste thing. Different castes behave differently than others. The queen lays in cups, and one caste cares for them, and as they mature, other castes tear them down...to maintain status quo??? Just a guess Mike --=======4641F0=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:15:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queen cell failure to thrive In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040723062249.0268dc18@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike & all > Different castes behave differently than others. > The queen lays in cups, and one caste cares > for them, and as they mature, other castes tear > them down...to maintain status quo??? I am assuming that you are using the word caste to indicate a sister grouping that was the result of sperm from a particular drone. Your feeling may well be right, there is quite a bit of behaviour that stems from the genetic differences within the groups of sisters in the hive... This is only fairly recently being pursued. One thing that has been bugging me is how do sisters recognise each other?, how do workers discern the difference in genetic make-up of a queen from another strain of bees? Are these mechanisms the same or are we looking at some sort of visual recognition as we might use to recognise two individual humans as sisters? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:32:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Kashmir Bee Virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve said: There is a very interesting discussion of neonicotinoids (Imidacloprid or Prescribe is one)in the May/June issue of Apiculture News, Eric Mussen commands respect in beekeeping circles. Most of the commercial beekeeping world is asleep when it comes to what easily could be a problem which could be as problematic as varroa. I say the above because only a very small group of beekeepers attend Jerry B. & Eric M. talks at national conventions. I have been around beekeeping since a teenager. In my opinion I do not see any of the products ( listed at the site) being pulled from sale just because of problems with honey bees. Past history has been only a bee warning on the label. Chemical makers fight such warnings because they put applicators & makers in danger of lawsuits such as the one in progress now. The task of proving * beyound a reasonable doubt* Imidacloprid is the cause of current bee problems * in the U.S.* is formidable. The site quotes research from overseas which will be put down by lawyers of the chemical companies as dated and of poor quality. Linking bee problems flying through a maze after being exposed to neonicotinoids will be pointed out by chemical company lawyers as different than actual beekeeping situations. After many decades of observing lawsuits between beekeepers & chemical companies and the results I sadly see the same results. My prediction is that possibly the beekeepers (in current lawsuit) will win and get compensation ( maybe not and be out huge lawyer fees which has happened many times in the past) and if so then chemical companies will have to put a bee warning on the products containing imidacloprid. I do not see the imidacloprid products being pulled *only* because of honey bee loss . Many chemicals are used every year in the U.S. which kill honey bees. If I were Jerry B. and going into court to fight the use of imadacloprid I would find a safe chemical for honey bees to replace imadicloprid with and argue that the use of imadicloprid is simply not needed as other chemicals are avilable which do the same job and registration should be pulled for imadicloprid. Sadly if imadicloprid is the only chemical which will do the job then I am afraid a knock down battle is brewing fueled by growers which want the imadicloprid products and have got crops which do not need honey bees for pollination. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:03:42 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Advice on Bad Combs Josh said: >> Also, I have found that bees will draw out 9 frames just as >> well as ten unwaxed frames when mine are on a good honeyflow. Bob said: > All George and others were trying to point out Josh was that the > spacing of nine causes problems when trying to get good brood comb. > Using ten at first is the best way in my opinion for brood comb & > honey supers but many use nine foundation in supers. If Josh shoves his 9 frame together so that the frames touch, the bees might just draw them properly. Sadly, I've too often seen the bees shove the frames apart (never underestimate the force of an large number of bees crowding into a small space!) and "mess up" the comb when drawing it as a result of the "shoved" frame(s). As an alternative strategy, one could decline to ever clean or scrape one's woodenware, and have an excellent gooey surface that will hold the frames in place even under a force of several Gs. jim (Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:38:05 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Kashmir Bee Virus Bob said: > The task of proving * beyound a reasonable doubt* Imidacloprid > is the cause of current bee problems * in the U.S.* is formidable. Proof "beyond reasonable doubt" would be required in a criminal case, but in civil lawsuits, only a "preponderance of the evidence" is required to obtain a judgment. > Linking bee problems flying through a maze after being exposed to > neonicotinoids will be pointed out by chemical company lawyers > as different than actual beekeeping situations. I find it 100% the same as "actual beekeeping". I, like many beekeepers use Lloyd's "Sundance" pollen traps, which are, in layman's terms, a simple maze that must be navigated by bees returning to the hive. > and if so then chemical companies will have to put a bee warning on > the products containing imidacloprid. I do not see the imidacloprid > products being pulled *only* because of honey bee loss. Did anyone expect products to be pulled off the market solely because of impact on bees? I would expect a warning label like: Do not use on crops that provide pollen and/or nectar that may be foraged by honey bees. rather than: Do not use on planets known to host the species Apis mellifera Dr. Atkins of the "Atkins diet" suffered a massive heart attack in 2002, and died at 72 weighing 258 pounds. He was 6 feet tall. He was clearly "obese". So shut up about "carbs", and pass the honey. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:37:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: queen cell failure to thrive In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-59A62B09; boundary="=======7A6F5A60=======" --=======7A6F5A60======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-59A62B09; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >Your feeling may well be right, there is quite a bit of behaviour that stems >from the genetic differences within the groups of sisters in the hive... >This is only fairly recently being pursued. > Dave Cushman This summer I have been trying to introduce SMR stock into my apiaries. I bought some breeder queens, and proceeded to raise daughters. My usual acceptance of cells in my nucs is 75% - 85%. With these new breeders, I am only getting about 55%. I've looked at my cell building, and can find no fault. Opening the cells on the 10th day after graft shows a healthy virgin. I use cell protectors, so I know the queens are hatching. I keep the cells warm on their way to the nucs, and don't jostle them around. We have had a super honey flow. The queens I have gotten are nice big fatties. The nucs that don't accept the cells often raise their own cell. On queen catching day, they have an unmated virgin. Not all are like this. Some have laying workers in as little as two weeks. In one nuc, my helper was looking for the laying queen. "I got eggs," he says. Then..."I got the -itch, but she looks a little small." So I look and see the queen is a virgin...raised from the last queens larvae. So I tell Bobby he had better find the other queen, as the virgin couldn't have layed all those eggs. He looks and says there is none. I look and ...I see a worker laying an egg. Hmm. I thought bees wouldn't tolerate a virgin when they had laying workers. We let it go, and the virgin is mated and is now laying. Anyway, I can't really think of anything else it could be but turf war among the castes of daughters in the hive...or something like that. Mike --=======7A6F5A60=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:50:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Analysis of Africanized honey bee mitochondrial DNA reveals further diversity of origin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Analysis of Africanized honey bee mitochondrial DNA reveals further diversity of origin http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1415-47571999000100015 allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Back in the saddle :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:11:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: Re: queen cell failure to thrive In-Reply-To: <200407231212.i6NB5UK0007576@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Michael In your reply you mentioned the queen cell being torn down. Is this with a larva being present in the cell? Thomas J. Martin Shippensburg Pa :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:21:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Kashmir Bee Virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Paul Vanwestendorp was interviewed for the newspaper article. I’ve heard Paul speak a couple of times while attending beekeeping functions in Canada. He struck me as competent, level headed, knowledgeable. He didn’t say Iminaclorporid was suspected of killing bees. He said Kashmir virus was killing bees. What, pray tell, does this business about Imidacloprid have to do with the question originally asked? Does anyone have any more information to offer about the Kashmir virus in Canada? Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:28:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queen cell failure to thrive In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040723201410.00b84358@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike > This summer I have been trying to introduce SMR stock into my apiaries. I would suggest that the introduced strain is being recognised as 'different' and that once the newly introduced genes are adequately expressed in the workers in future then things will return to normal. There will be differences in reaction between subsets of sisters to the foreign genes, I think the antics that you describe with the bees raising their own cells or laying workers show a more extreme difference in genes to those nucs that merely are raising less than you would expect. There is another aspect to this and that is the ability of some groups of sisters to be better at some tasks than others. So depending on the way that you make up your mating nucs you can end up with some nucs that are better carers than others. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:29:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: queen cell failure to thrive In-Reply-To: <000001c47123$8efb3b80$60f1cd97@your> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-E8028F7; boundary="=======5E755CCB=======" --=======5E755CCB======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-E8028F7; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Is this >with a larva being present in the cell? >Thomas J. Martin When I see this happening, there are cells in every stage of development. Egg in cup, larvae floating in jelly, and sealed cells. Soon after they are sealed, they are torn down. I guess I should follow the progress of one of these colonies to find out what happens...wish I had the time. Mike --=======5E755CCB=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:51:19 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] queen cell failure to thrive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Tom Martin > This is my reason for writing. The cell was empty. What would cause > this? Others have talked about this before, but I like to add a recent experience. I raise queens for sale, and produce about 150 cells/ week. We have had very rainy summer until 10 days ago when the weather cleared and nectar started to come in very well. That week I gave tp 6 cell builder colonies 2 sets of 75 started queen cells from a starter after 1 day in starter. They went in two sets. From the first all were eaten away little before they were supposed to be capped. The cells had long walls, masses of royal jelly and big larva in them. From the other set 1 hive rejected all cells, but the rest 2 colonies come up fine. One of the fine come from the only queenless cell builder. The big upward change in incoming nectar made the bees to quit queen rearing. It is quite normal for us to experience intensive honey flows, but this is the first time that I experienced myself that bees rejected started cells becouse of the flow. Ari Seppälä Finland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:48:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Subject: Re: AFB in yard In-Reply-To: <200407240400.i6O401Da006701@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AFB in yard I have what appears to be AFB in one of my yards. Since I have about 15 hives there I am loath to destroy all of them. As a means of control I am thinking of waiting until the end of the honey flow, then taking new equipment with foundation in frames and using the shook swarm method of replacing the equipment, shaking each hive into the new equipment and getting rid of the old frames and scorching the contaminated equipment. At the same time I'm moving the colonies to new equipment I would feed heavily with medicated sugar syrup and medicated pollen substitute patties. Going through the archives I noticed a comment that dusting works better than patties. Would appreciate comments on this. At the conclusion of all of this moving, I plan to intensely monitor the hives to see if there is a reoccurrence of AFB as I want to maintain the colonies drug free in reference to AFB/EFB. I am wondering if this would be a good plan of procedure in the opinion of you master beekeepers? Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:15:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: albert cannon Subject: Re: AFB in yard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] AFB in yard > AFB in yard > > I have what appears to be AFB in one of my yards. Since I have about 15 > hives there I am loath to destroy all of them. As a means of control I >> would be a good plan of procedure in the opinion of you master beekeepers? > > Mike if it only appears that you have afb then get them checked to determine if it is or not, then depending on which country you live in!! keep to the rules.Here in the UK we have to inform the authorites and after confirmation we have to destroy the colonies, shook swarms should be done earlier in the year as a precaution against such diseases ,it wont cure it, but of course it helps. Trying not to lose colonies and hoping that the AFB will go away is not very good policy. Get rid of them and grin and bear it./ Albert > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:04:57 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: [BEE-L] AFB in yard In-Reply-To: <41025A94.9020006@frontiernet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try this url and see what we do in Denmark. It is not allowed to use mediation here. http://apimo.dk/afb/regulation.htm Best regards Jorn Johanesson maybe the best and Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. With integrated update facility hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:32:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: josh jaros Subject: Re: Mites during the winter. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My question is how long are Varroa able to survive in the winter without brood to breed in? I know that in the winter they are prone to winter along with the bees, but it there a point where they expire, or a point where they are no longer able to breed, or a cycle of some sort? Josh Jaros --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:27:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AFB in yard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/04 1:22:34 PM, mws@FRONTIERNET.NET writes: << I have what appears to be AFB in one of my yards. >> Have you called the BEE INSPECTOR for "proof" of AFB, before you "go off - half cocked?". Your statements of "waiting for the honey flow to end", not wanting to destroy 15 colonies, even mentioning dusting with Terramycin" SURELY DEMONSTRATES THAT YOU DON'T KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT BEEKEEPING. Why do you people REFUSE to LEARN? NO apologies for being NASTY! George Imirie, Ph.D. Scientist Certified Master Beekeeper 72 years as a successful beekeeper close to Washington, DC Author of George's PINK PAGES about successful beekeeping Author of American Beekeeping Federation NewsLetter Hobbyist Tips :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:22:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Kashmir Bee Virus & Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick asks: What, pray tell, does this business about Imidacloprid have to do with the question originally asked? I was commenting on the Steve Davy post and the web site Steve posted. . Subject box should have been changed. Sorry! Dick asks; Does anyone have any more information to offer about the Kashmir virus in Canada? Most beekeepers which have looked into virus in bees show little interest as researchers only find and name such ( Bailey). I have yet to see a workable solution for a bee virus. On the other hand: Imidacloprid is being talked about world wide by beekeepers as an every growing problem which is reportedly killing tens of thousands of beekeepers hives worldwide with hopefully a solution! Could even threaten the huge U.S. Almond pollination if not stopped. Pesticide kills are very hard to prove and litigation is beyound the reach of most beekeepers . I can remember warehouses full of deadouts from pesticide kills in the 50's & 60's and the only compensation the beekeeper got was the small government payment to replace the dead bees. Program was dropped in 1978 and to my knowledge is not in effect now! Not a penny for loss of pollination fees or loss of honey production. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:27:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Mites during the winter. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit .> My question is how long are Varroa able to survive in the winter without brood to breed in? Long time as long as they can feed on adult bees. Easily until spring. 7 days I am told without a host to feed on.. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:56:15 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Mites during the winter. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > .> My question is how long are Varroa able to survive in the winter > without brood to breed in? > 7 days I am told without a host to feed on.. The figure of 3 days is mentioned in our Ausvetplan when there is no food present. Also in a New Zealand publication it says up to five and a half days but usually much less. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:37:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: August ABJ article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I commend Joe Graham (editor ABJ) as I have before for giving all sides of a subject equal time. The article " Examining the Chinese Chloramphenicol honey Contamination Issue from the Chinese point of View" in the August issue of the American Bee Journal (vol. 144 no. 8) will not be received well by American beekeepers but we are all beekeepers and as such we have got beekeeping in common. Actually I respect the Apicultural Science Association of China (ASAC) quite a bit for the work they are doing in many areas. When the average beekeeper reads the article he/she quickly sees the door is about to open and the flood of low priced Chinese is headed for the U.S.. It is also interesting that on page 632 the Chinese say around 20,000 metric tons of *ultrafiltered honey* have already flowed into the U.S. What happened to the U.F. honey which was ultrafiltered to remove chloramphenicol which entered the U.S. ? If you read further on the same page the ASCA says the need to ultrafilter honey before shipment will resolve itself because they are no longer using chloramphenicol in their bee yards many times on a daily basis. The ASCA also states they feel the U.K & the U.S. unfairly barred their honey tainted with chloramphenicol. The ASCA said the amount was so low the health risk was small. Small or not what could be the long term health risks? I guess we will find out in 20 or so years as millions of tons of chloramphenicol contaminated honey was sold in stores in China I have been told! When given a choice I would select the bottle without the chloramphenicol contamination every time. Of course I have been told the Chinese consumer was never told the honey had traces of chloramphenicol. The ASCA says in the article there are two sides to every story. I can not speak for all U.S. beekeepers but I believe I understand the American beekeepers take on the problem. Short version: Not long ago ( 4-5 years) I walked through several warehouses of drums of U.S. honey. I asked the beekeeper why he was sitting on such a large amount of honey. I realized the honey price at the time was low ( around .60 a pound). He said that he had not been able to find a buyer at even close to the .60 cent range. All the buyers were stocked up with Chinese honey at quite a bit lower price. Will these days return? The ideal situation would be a fair price paid by packers for U.S. honey and fill the gap between U.S. production and demand with honey from other countries. China & Argentina beekeepers can not supply the hives needed in the U.S. for pollination. Many orchards have already closed their doors for lack of pollination. Simply put many packers could care less if pollination gets done as long as they make a huge profit by sales of foreign honey. I am afraid the only solution is for each of us to spread the word to only buy honey in stores which has product of U.S. ( or your own country) on the label . Support those packers which buy and sell only U.S. honey. The price per jar most likely will be higher but you will be supporting the U.S. beekeeper! Do we really want to see closed signs on orchards all over the U.S. which produce crops pollinated by honeybees? As long as the Chinese see the U.S. as the place to dump millions of tons of cheap honey and packers are around which are not interested in the survival of the U,S. beekeeper and pollination you will see less and less commercial beekeepers. Orchards will continue to close their doors. The best way to combate foreign honey is to buy honey which is a product of your country *first*! Educate your friends and neighbors to support your local beekeeper! We need to enforce label of origin and by doing so create a demand of U.S. honey! many beekeepers bad mouth all store honey which is the wrong approach in my opinion. We need to simply get the consumer to only buy honey which is produced in the U.S. for the simple reason of keeping the U.S. beekeeper solvent so pollination will get done AND FORCING PACKERS TO BUY U.S. HONEY TO SELL WITH THE *PRODUCT OF U.S. LABEL*. Thanks for your time to listen to the U.S. beekeeper side of the issue! Subscribe to the U.S. bee mags to stay up on the issues! Read the August ABJ article! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:03:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: AFB in yard Comments: cc: GImasterBK@AOL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi George & All, > Why do you people REFUSE to LEARN? > > NO apologies for being NASTY! > The Gentleman appeared to be asking for help in resolving this issue. You might try teaching him something instead of belittling him. I hope this is not how all Master Beekeepers teach Beekeeping. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 06:09:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: August ABJ article In-Reply-To: <000801c47201$0778af60$25bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3CFA39EB; boundary="=======7E83A66=======" --=======7E83A66======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3CFA39EB; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >We need to enforce label of origin and by doing so create a demand of U.S. >honey! > We need to simply get the consumer to only buy honey which is >produced in the U.S. >Bob Harrison First step, in my opinion, is to stop labeling honey produced overseas as "USDA Grade A" How can the consumer make an informed purchase if...in large type...foreign honey says "USDA Grade A" on the front label, and in tiny type...located somewhere on the back label, or even in little black dots on the glass...almost unreadable...the country of origin? Mike --=======7E83A66=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 06:48:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: AFB in yard Mike, what part of the country are you in, and what do you treat with tetramycin as a preventitive? If you were here in our area I would harvest the honey (I assume you've already used your extracting equipment with these hives and they have already been exposed to AFB) and then pull out and destroy infected comb. Then I would immediately treat with tetramycin. It doesn't get better with time, and if you wait for the honey flow to end that will be too long. But first check the archives here or with an experienced beekeeper to be sure it's AFB and not something similar that is often associated with mites. Correctly identifying the problem is of course your first priority. Please let us know what you find, and best of luck. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:32:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AFB in yard In-Reply-To: <1a6.269205be.2e344a77@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As George so gently put it, you do need to see if it really is AFB. Plus, waiting, if it is AFB, will just about insure that more colonies will pick it up, since you will have both drifting and robbing. You have to take care of AFB early. You will not only spread it in your apiary, but will put all around you at risk. Obviously, you are new to beekeeping. Every year, at our chapter meeting, our State inspector brings some frames from AFB infected hives along with frames that were from other dieing or dead colonies and we are asked to find the problem, just from frame inspection. I usually do fairly well on the AFB frames, since I started keeping bees with infected equipment (welcome to the club). But I do not do as well with some other problems since I may not have run into them. There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. You see that demonstrated daily on the BeeL :) At least you did ask. I knew one "experienced" beekeeper in my area who had AFB and never really did anything right with it. Plus, since he was "experienced", he knew what was "right". He no longer keeps bees. Get yourself some good books. The best is debatable but a good start is The Beekeeper's Handbook by Diane Sammataro. One more thing. Be prepared, on this list to occasionally take some heat. It is no big deal. If you stick around, the BeeL is an exceptional repository of excellent advice and information because all will be challenged if they post unfounded or shaky advice and/or techniques, as you so quickly learned. Consider it part of your continuing education. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:26:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: AFB in yard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't tried the new instant test kits, but I'm told they're excellent. That might be your best bet for a quick diagnosis. If it is AFB, you're probably best off to be ruthless and burn everything. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:02:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: josh jaros Subject: Re: AFB in yard In-Reply-To: <41039A5B.1090308@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Before you do anything, you'd better find out if you really do have AFB. It gives off a very distinct odor and if you insert an object into one of the open cells, there will be a very grey or brownish liquid. Also, if you would uncap a few of the brood cells, you will notice this liquid as well. The AFB has simply broken down the larvae. Now it could be very hard for you do detect AFB for your first time if you are just starting out. The only reason I am good at it is because I worked on a commercial operation for several years. It takes running into it several times before you can recognize it. The smell is so distinct that when someone opened up a hive 20 feet away, I could tell right away. They do sell kits to detect AFB in most beekeeping magazines. I think one of the biggest problems most new beekeepers have is not digging into the hive and observing it enough. Most new beekeepers are very reluctant to work their hives, perhaps because they don't know tha! t much about working them. If I knew they had AFB, I'd probably pull the honey right away, that same hour. Then, if it was really bad I would burn the whole colony immediately. If it wasn't that bad, say only a few small patches on a couple of frames, I would medicate with Terramyacin right away, but would keep supers off until the situation was resolved. You could even throw those two or so frames away. I think George has a good plan not using Terramyacin at all, but I'm surrounded by thousands of migratory hives so I don't see how I could refrain from medication. My bees are going to come into contact with it every year. If I didn't treat, I'm guessing that my losses would be considerable every year. It spreads so easily, and as soon as one hive has it, you can pretty much guess that most of the rest of your colonies have come into contact with it. The Italians I have drift so bad and they are so prone to robbing. Perhaps, this isn't as big of a problem with the carnio! lans. Josh Jaros --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:45:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: AFB in yard I see Josh has the identical advice that I gave, and he mentioned he has Italians. That was an important ommision on my part. All the more reason for posters to give as much information about their bees and locations as possible. Beekeeping in South Africa was a whole lot easier on one level, but I still prefer my Italians, and so does my hide... ;-) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:18:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: August ABJ article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I read these comments on the BEE-L, I cannot help from wondering how many of us BEEKEEPERS are using foreign made equipment to work our honey operation? I am referring to the clothing we wear, shoes, trucks, and everything we use in our daily life. We should not be "cussing a farmer with food in our mouth", if you understand what I am saying. In other words, don't be pushing USA made honey delivered to market in a Toyota truck. Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:25:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: THE ORIGIN OF WEST EUROPEAN SUBSPECIES OF HONEYBEES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE ORIGIN OF WEST EUROPEAN SUBSPECIES OF HONEYBEES (APIS MELLIFERA): NEW INSIGHTS FROM MICROSATELLITE AND MITOCHONDRIAL DATA http://www.montpellier.inra.fr/URLB/apis/evolution/evolution.html allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:50:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Dewey Subject: List as Learning Tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Why do you people REFUSE to LEARN? George - with all due respect, what do you think people are doing on this list besides learning? Newbies put forth their ideas as best they can hoping & praying that someone with some experience will respond. All of us learn by setting loose our fingers on the keyboard. With luck and hard work we expect our posts to become more intelligent over time. The information I glean from the list makes my own observations in my yard more astute. And I'm very grateful to the list for that. When someone poses a query that demonstrates a lack of understanding, yelling at them doesn't help the bees any. How about: "Mike - AFB is serious and shouldn't be messed with. If you think your hives are infected, have someone competent locally (your state apiarist, if available) check them out - and be prepared to follow his/her instructions - even if they tell you to burn everything." I hope we want to encourage people to learn and become better beekeepers. Regards, Andrew Dewey Southwest Harbor, Maine 4 years keep bees and still learning - 16 hives! (Anyone in Maine should look at Channel 7's news Monday night - they filmed part of our Tri-County Open Hive meeting today! That'll be me holding a frame of brood for the camera to zoom in on!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:48:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Brussels clearing the way to end a two year ban on food imports from China MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brussels clearing the way to end a two year ban on food imports from China http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/news/news-NG.asp?id=53598 allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:30:14 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Frames crammed with pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a have that has a few frames completely packed with pollen. Will = the bees use this, or has it become a cementeous mass that they cannot deal with?=20 Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen =D5hr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:00:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Kashmir Bee Virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As mentioned a few days back, a co-worker told me he heard Paul Harvey speak on the radio about a “new” bee virus that was killing bees in western Canada. Well here’s more on it. http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/displayarticle1597.html ....so, that’s why you Canadians haven’t bothered to comment.... ‘And now you know the rest of the story’ Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:42:46 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: August ABJ article I am amazed at how quickly it is forgotten that this is supposed to be an international mailing list. All beekeeping is local, except on the internet, where all beekeeping is international. I am more amazed at how little in-depth understanding of the honey business (and international trade in general) is evinced by those who presume that "Chinese dumping" only impacts the price of honey in the USA. To start with, what do you think happens to the bulk of the honey produced in Canada? What happens to the price offered to a Canadian producer when US prices are depressed by a flood of imported honey from somewhere south of the Equator? For that matter, does Canadian honey itself offered to US packers tend to reduce the price paid to US producers, and perhaps even the retail price paid to a small beekeeper that sells at the farmer's markets? Yes, and bears really DO do that in the woods, having nowhere else to do that sort of thing. Below are various points made by various people, in no particular order. > how many of us BEEKEEPERS are using foreign made > equipment to work our honey operation? I am referring > to the clothing we wear, Well, if you are talking about veils and bee suits, I spend a little more to buy from the actual inventor of a concept, rather than the knock-off artists. So, my veils are made in Britain by Brian Sherriff, rather than here in the US. I don't see much ethical difference between selling Ultra-filtered substances of an alleged sweetening nature that bears a passing resemblance to honey, and selling bee wear that bears a striking resemblance to the Sherriff veils, bee jackets, and bee suits circa 1968. If anyone can explain the difference, I'd sure like to hear it. > ...trucks,... Hmmm, motor vehicles. Well, let's see... Jaguar is now Ford, Land Rover is also now Ford, Volvo is, ummmm... also Ford. So much for MY garage, how 'bout yours? Hondas sold in the USA are made south of Wright-Patterson Air Force base in Ohio. Mercedes is now Chrysler. (Or is Chrysler actually more Mercedes than Mercedes is Chrysler?) GM owns 67% of Daewoo. The Mini Cooper is now made by BMW, but Volkswagen Jettas are made in Mexico. Shall I go on? I thought not. Here's the problem. The planet is one big transparent market for "fungible commodities" like honey. (And if you sell your honey as a "fungible commodity", whose fault is that?) Buyers and packers of honey are ready, willing, and able to source their honey from anywhere on the planet, so any honey for sale in bulk anywhere tends to impact the price paid for honey everywhere else. The net effect of the Chinese honey being offered for sale anywhere is to tend to depress prices everywhere. The net effect of ANY large supply of honey being offered for sale anywhere is to tend to depress prices everywhere. The result is classic comedy reminiscent of a Marx Bothers film, where honey produced in Argentina is bought by an Australian packer, blended with Australian honey, and sold through a conglomerate based in the USA to Canadian stores, and hence, Canadian consumers. The punch line is that the Argentine honey was contaminated, and very well may have been known to have been contaminated when it was shipped to Canada. (Think of all the shipping involved as the honey in question was shipped not only around only the entire circumference of the planet, but also from the southern hemisphere to the northern on its journey from producer to consumer, and please explain to me how anyone involved made any profit from any of this.) The problem is that buyers and packers have more information than producers, and many producers don't even try to share information on what offers they have received. Producers and producer co-ops are being fools in thinking that they gain anything by keeping bids secret rather than leveraging the unavoidable transparency of the market to their own advantage. The net result is that the lowest price that any large producer or co-op will accept suddenly becomes the highest price offered to anyone else. If one thinks about that for longer than a millisecond, it should become blindingly obvious to even the casual observer that it would be in the best interest of producers to not only know what others are being offered for their honey, but also to quickly inform everyone else of what bids they have received. But everyone thinks that they are somehow smarter than absolutely everyone else, plays their cards close to their chests, and ends up having to bend over and grab their ankles when dealing with buyers and packers. (Note that when grabbing one's ankles, one is forced to drop all one's cards on the floor anyway.) > First step, in my opinion, is to stop labeling honey > produced overseas as "USDA Grade A" The USDA "grading" of food is supposed to be something that both protects and informs consumers, so the USDA cannot refuse to grade imported honey or blends containing imported honey. Country Of Origin Labeling (COOL) is something that consumers want, and will become US law at some point. Bribes in the form of campaign contributions will only slow its adoption. Nothing can stop the trend. > The ASCA also states they feel the U.K & the U.S. unfairly > barred their honey tainted with chloramphenicol. The ASCA > said the amount was so low the health risk was small. And the ASCA is 100% correct that the amount was very low, and that the health risk was very small. The risk was also vanishingly small for the Nitrofurans-contaminated honey. But that's not the point. The point is that these substances are not allowed in food at all in multiple countries. These "contamination scandals" were not the result of some sort of conspiracy to force Chinese or Argentine honey off the market, in fact, honey was viewed as a minor detail as compared to the seafood (shrimp, prawns, crab) in the chloramphenicol case. > I am afraid the only solution is for each of us to spread the > word to only buy honey in stores which has product of U.S. > (or your own country) on the label . Consumers have shown a strong preference for local produce, and the more local, the better. Labeling is all that would be required, but the bulk of the market would still be dominated by cheap honey until consumers become as picky about honey as they are about olive oil. This means marketing your honey as something more than mere generic honey. This means working hard to insure that YOUR honey is not part of that great mass of "fungible commodity" honey. I think I compared olive oil to honey before on BEE-L... http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0202C&L=bee-l&P=R195&D=0&F=P There it is. > China & Argentina beekeepers can not supply the hives needed in the U.S. > for pollination The oft-told fable of honey prices supporting pollination is laughable when compared to the actions of US beekeepers when honey prices are high. The rational choice of some beekeepers was to keep their colonies out of pollination, since pollination both does not produce honey, and tends to stress the colonies so that they produce less honey than they would if they were not used for pollination. What is needed to support pollination is a decent pollination fee per hive. Muddying the waters with talk of honey prices only serves to insure that pollination fees will remain low, and beekeepers will continue to try to both pollinate and produce a honey crop, doing neither as well as either could be done alone, and suffering the higher costs inherent in trying to do both. jim (Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:36:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: List as Learning Tool In-Reply-To: <200407252250.i6PMoB24097173@aphrodite.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Dewey wrote: >>>Why do you people REFUSE to LEARN? > George - with all due respect, what do you think people are doing on this > list besides learning? > Newbies put forth their ideas as best they can hoping & praying that someone > with some experience will respond. Actually, the list is titled " Informed Discussion" and was originally Bee biology. It was set up for experienced beekeepers but quickly was invaded by talented amateurs and experienced commercial beekeepers and most of the scientists departed. But there always has been the intent to keep the list on a level a bit higher than " I just bought a hive. What do I do now?". There are newsgroups that satisfy the newbie. Some of the frustration that is seem from time to time is that there is a wealth of info in the archives that do answer most new beekeeper's questions. But why do searching on your own when it is so much easier to ask and have others do it for you? Or why buy a book? Gets a bit frustrating after you have been here a long time. I appreciate George's posts. I have learned more from him and his Pink Pages than I have from any other Beekeeper except Tony Jadczak. He has seen it all and has little tolerance for dumb questions or behavior. I have a larger problem with those who post anecdotal evidence and pass it off as solid science or new techniques in beekeeping. Then I appreciate George's response. I would rather see George's CAPS than reasoned tripe. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:39:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Honey Price Info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are two: http://www.ams.usda.gov/fv/mncs/fvmonthly.htm http://www.nhb.org/domestic/index.html#Price allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Bee Stings from a Beekeeper's Perspective: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/stings.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:48:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: August ABJ article In-Reply-To: <008401c472d3$61765f30$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > The oft-told fable of honey prices supporting pollination is laughable when > compared to the actions of US beekeepers when honey prices are high. The > rational choice of some beekeepers was to keep their colonies out of > pollination, since pollination both does not produce honey, and tends to > stress the colonies so that they produce less honey than they would if they > were not used for pollination. > > What is needed to support pollination is a decent pollination fee per hive. > Muddying the waters with talk of honey prices only serves to insure that > pollination fees will remain low, and beekeepers will continue to try to > both pollinate and produce a honey crop, doing neither as well as either > could be done alone, and suffering the higher costs inherent in trying to > do both. Amen. Blueberry pollination often results in hives coming off the fields lighter than when they went on. As the old point of contact for beekeeping in Maine, I still hear from people who want their crops pollinated for free since " we will let the beekeeper keep the honey". Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:48:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: Re: queen cell failure to thrive In-Reply-To: <200407241719.i6OGvvEa027226@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ari The observation of queen rearing and honey flow relations applies in my case. The honey flow here in central Pennsylvania is still on. A neighbor had a super of foundation drawn out last week. Is it possible this queen cell failure is actually a shortage of young nurse bees? A honey flow would take all of the older bees out of the colony. Thomas J. Martin Shippensburg Pennsylvania :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:20:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AFB in yard In-Reply-To: <20040725150203.43169.qmail@web60005.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit josh jaros wrote: > Before you do anything, you'd better find out if you really do have > AFB. It gives off a very distinct odor and if you insert an object > into one of the open cells, there will be a very grey or brownish > liquid. Also, if you would uncap a few of the brood cells, you will > notice this liquid as well. The AFB has simply broken down the > larvae. Now it could be very hard for you do detect AFB for your > first time if you are just starting out. Actually, those symptoms can be associated with other problems. For example, you can get a "foul" smell with some ripening honeys and sacbrood will give some liquid with brown larva. We are asking a new beekeeper to distinguish differences between what many have never seen or smelled. The better indicators for the new beekeeper are: the pupal tongue sticking straight up from the remains on the cell floor; the larval remains "rope out" when a matchstick or toothpick are inserted in the larval remains and pulled out (does not always work with every cell); cappings are shrunken and small holes appear in them; and scale on the bottom of cells that does not come out. (All that in addition to the differences between AFB and EFB and the color of dieing/dead pupa, again, things an expert needs to evaluate.) BTW, all this is in just about every comprehensive Beekeeping book. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:41:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: Frames crammed with pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bees stash pollen and honey in the brood box, but in my case, they'll relocate or use the honey, and free up room for the queen to continue laying. Stashed pollen appears to grow old and not be used. It looks like it's a cementous mass and the bees appear not to clean it up or use it, but... It is my understanding that if you have a frame with mostly pollen, you can soak it (the frame) underwater overnight, and the pollen will shake out, leaving you combs the bees can finish cleaning and prepare for the queen to use. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:43:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Ormand Aebi dead at 88 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ormand Aebi died on Monday, July 19, 2004, at the age of 88 years. A third generation beekeeper, co-author with his father of two books, THE ART AND ADVENTURE OF BEEKEEPING and MASTERING THE ART OF BEEKEEPING, and co-holder with his father of the official world's record in the GUINESS BOOK OF RECORDS from 1976 to 1984, for the most honey produced in a single hive with a single queen in a single season, 404 lbs. - which true single queen record (broken only with the use of multiple queens) will most likely never be seriously challenged. He was a great beekeeper and we all loved him and will miss him. Sent by Charles Simon. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:16:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dann Purvis II Subject: Re: AFB in yard->Italians, Carnies, > Russians, Africans, > Hybrids, A.m. Mutts!?!? In-Reply-To: <200407251645.i6PGQWDo020145@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Where in the world-ah-I mean the US are US beekeepers legally getting Italians? I thought we stopped bringing in bees/genetics from outside the US (sarcasm). Is there a queen producer selling instrumentally inseminated (II) queens they have been maintaining for a couple decades at $8.00/each? Anyone that has done or is doing II definitely gets the joke. I have not heard of any breeder of which there are very few, actually maintaining a line of =B3Italians=B2 in a manner I would call pure Italian. I do know some folks trying to carry on some of the characteristics of the Italians and calling them Italians. For convenience by some and out of ignorance for most, any light colored and or gentle bee is called an Italia= n and any dark a Carniolan. Color has nothing to do with aggressive behavior= . There are extremely gentle dark bees such as Cobey=B9s NWC as well as aggressive light colored bees. This holds true to other traits as well. I= t depends upon what the breeder is selecting for and how successful they are at maintaining gains. I would also venture to say there are only two groups/lines/populations of bees in the US that could be called =B3races=B2. They have the genetic =B3purity= =B2 (a funny little word) and consistently exhibit characteristics uniform with the description of their race. They are called New World Carniolan-A.m. carnica and AHB-A. m. scutellata. Some say the Russians are a race. I believe that promoted =B3absolute=B2 is up for debate. Too me-they act a lot like the book definition of Carnicas---maybe they are =B3OWC-Old World Carniolans=B2=8BOOP!s! I wasn=B9t supposed to say that. Really they are Macedonians with just a pinch of Carnica and Italian thrown in for good measure. Shall I stir the pot? Personally I could care less what they look like or are called as long as they survive without chemical intervention, produce honey well and are sufficiently gentle. Also, well said Andrew Dewey about learning on the list. Dann Purvis Purvis Brothers Apiaries, Inc. 5122 Trackrock Camp Road Blairsville, GA 30512 USA 706 781 3128 (voice and fax) 706 781 3376 dannzann@alltel.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:22:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Subject: Re: List as Learning Tool In-Reply-To: <200407252250.i6PMoB24097173@aphrodite.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:50:07 -0400 From: Andrew Dewey Subject: [BEE-L] List as Learning Tool To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Send reply to: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > >> Why do you people REFUSE to LEARN? > > > > George - with all due respect, what do you think people are doing on > this list besides learning? I can understand the tension here, as so many topics come up over and over and over. I've tended to take a different approach; I just don't answer, rather than submit the regulars on the list to the tedium of repetition ad infinitum. The valid suggestion is frequently made here that the archives be searched on these common issues that come up over and over. Then take everything said with a grain of salt. A little time spent reading will help to judge those who post with experience and compentence - and those who are just opinionating. After that the search can be narrowed a bit - to eliminate the pontificators. AFB has been endlessly discussed, there should be a wealth of information in the archives. But I will offer some comments. 1. Get an accurate diagnosis. An experienced beekeeper knows AFB when he sees it. There is little question about diagnosis. That's because experienced beekeepers have all had cases of it. I am suspicious of any beekeeper with more than a couple hives who says he's never had it. Either he's lying (most likely) or he's got his eyes firmly shut. (I once went through bees with a sideliner who supposedly was competent, and he was so badly infected in his operation that he was obviously shutting his eyes for several years. 2. When you find a case, it is serious but not an occasion for panic. Some will tell you to burn everything in the yard. That's nonsense. Burn the infected hive and watch the others more closely. You may have contaminated hives a half mile away that you don't know about, always ready to reinfect yours. As much as possible make sure other beekeepers in the area take care of their disease. That's one of the values of a local bee club. 3. Understand the mechanisms whereby it's spread. The most common is beekeepers transferring equipment from contaminated hives to uncontaminated. That means they aren't watching the hives they work with. The other means is robbing. Note that a hive that has AFB, that is still strong, is not going to get robbed, so it's not an occasion for an all-night burn session. It is when the hive gets weak that they get robbed. Also the danger increases when a honeyflow stops and bees are looking to rob. Usually you have a little time to learn and plan. 4. Understand that foulbrood spores are everywhere, and that most hives clean them up. I've seen good hives have a couple cells of foulbrood and never see it again in the hive. But it is a warning, to recheck again in a week. If the cells have increased, then it's time to be hard-nosed and burn. 5. The massive doses of spores that are most infective come from brood scale. You should learn to recognize brood scale instantly, both by smell and sight. Never put any frame with brood scale into a hive, or leave it out in the open when it can be robbed. There are photos of fresh and dried scale and lots more information at: http://www.pollinator.com/afbscale.htm I hope this helps. Dave in SC The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:44:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Johnston Subject: re-queening mini nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I read somewhere about a technique of inroducing a virgin in a cage, = some days before removing the mated queen from a mini nuc, but now can't = find the reference. Can nyone help? Thanks=20 Andy Johnston :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:28:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Ormand Aebi dead at 88 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Kim Flottum" wrote about Ormand Aebi: > co-holder with his father of the official world's record in the GUINESS > BOOK OF RECORDS from 1976 to 1984, for the most honey produced in a > single hive with a single queen in a single season, 404 lbs. - which > true single queen record (broken only with the use of multiple queens) > will most likely never be seriously challenged. First - nice to see a posting from you and I am sure that we all hope that you are keeping well. As for the record, several years ago I had a colony in the middle of Stratford-upon-Avon that filled - and I mean filled - 12 British National supers. I weighed one super before and after extraction and it yielded 38lbs of honey. 12 x 38 = 456. There were four colonies on the site and the one next door had 10 full supers. The others had 6 and 8 each. All ha one queen in a single National brood box. Obviously, I am not trying to claim any records as we did not weigh the total crop or have it witnessed, but I am sure Aebi's 'record' can - and probably has - been beaten. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:03:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: josh jaros Subject: Re: AFB in yard In-Reply-To: <4105050F.3070403@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I thought Dave from SC had some very good photos on the link he offered. I wish to point out that many people are often very careless when dealing with foulbrood. When I worked with some beekeepers, sometimes the terramyacin was left in another vehicle or someone forgot to bring it. So whoever worked the hive marked it with some intention of returning to it the next day. But often the hive was forgotten, or the marker got lost, or something happened. I've seen boxes of scale left out in the open and multitudes of bees robbing them out until I found it and covered it up and took it to be burned. It is so easy for the stuff to spread, and I've seen some of the results of this kind of carelessness. You have to nip it in the bud, otherwise it gets out of hand. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:14:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: queen cell failure to thrive In-Reply-To: <000001c4730e$cd29edb0$aaf0cd97@your> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1CE8E5B; boundary="=======7FCF5E91=======" --=======7FCF5E91======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1CE8E5B; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Is it possible this queen cell failure is actually a shortage of young >nurse bees? A honey flow would take all of the older bees out of the >colony. >Thomas J. Martin How would that effect the nurse bee population? They don't go out to forage. Mike --=======7FCF5E91=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:20:59 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] queen cell failure to thrive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Michael Palmer > > How would that effect the nurse bee population? They don't go out to forage. > Yes they do. Bees start as field bees at some point of their life. Seeleys book honeybee ecology page 33 for example has a graph that shows how the proportion of field bees grow. Some bees start as field bees at age of 10 days. Normally at day 25 100 % of bees are working outside of the hive. So bees have ability to start as field bees quite early in their life, at the time that they are normally feeding brood. When a sudden strong honey flow starts many bees are moving to honey related jobs. Up to a point where brood gets less food than normal. This in the mechanism why european foulbrood often shows up 1 week after the beginning of good honeyflow. In that case larvae show symptoms because they don't receive enough food and the bacteria in their stomach eats most of it and the larvae dies. When properly fed many larvae would survive. But they come out in that case as smaller bees. This change also effects queen rearing. It is quite logical that bees can adjust their work according to the situation. A good honeyflow does not happen too often. They need to take every advantage of it. Ari Seppälä Central Finland where honeyflows are often strong, but short. This year looks like 14 good days. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:45:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: davidbrowder Subject: Re: Ormand Aebi dead at 88 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit GUINNESS > > BOOK OF RECORDS from 1976 to 1984, for the most honey produced in a > > single hive with a single queen in a single season, 404 bs. -----------------------------------------I had a colony in the middle of > Stratford-upon-Avon that filled - and I mean filled - 12 British National > supers. I weighed one super before and after extraction and it yielded > 38lbs of honey. 12 x 38 = 456.---------------------------- -----Look no farther than the front page of the "R Weaver Apiaries" web site to top both claims. Records are made to be broken, as I'm sure the athletics in Greece this Summer will prove. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 03:03:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: AFB in yard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A couple of years ago we had the largest outbreak of AFB ever recorded in the UK not so far from me. Over a hundred hives belonging to one beekeeper were infected. Since, as far as I know, only his hives were involved, its pretty clear that he was the one spreading the disease. It must have been present in the hives for some considerable time before it was spotted. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:51:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Ormand Aebi dead at 88 In-Reply-To: <007d01c47358$33990880$1c8687d9@oemcomputer> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Peter, >Obviously, I am not trying to claim any records as we did not weigh the >total crop or have it witnessed, but I am sure Aebi's 'record' can - and >probably has - been beaten. > I am sure you are correct. I have harvested 395 pounds (weighed after extraction) from a single hive, and would have (I expect) taken more if I had more drawn comb, or had extracted earlier and put the empties back on. For me this was a fluke. I could not plan and execute the process with witnessed documentation. That suggests a certain consistency. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:52:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: At What Age do Bees Begin to forage? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> How would that effect the nurse bee population? They don't go out to >> forage. > > Yes they do. Bees start as field bees at some point of their life. > ...Some bees start as field bees at age of 10 days. Normally at > day 25 100 % of bees are working outside of the hive. This discussion illustrates how many of the 'rules' and lore of beekeeping are approximations or turn out to be falsehoods when subjected to closer scrutiny and tested under special conditions. Although much of that material has some basis in fact, and may apply passably in limited, 'normal' conditions, it does not represent nearly the whole truth. In everyday practice, when people see things that do not fit what they have learned, many try to force observed anomalies to fit the current beliefs,or ignore the the contradiction; however, progress in science and education often depends on finding anomalies and then challenging the current theory. For years, I have noticed and reported that, during a strong flow, virtually all bees in a hive must be aware of the hive location, since we have been able to sucessfully use abandonment as a method of removing the crop. All the bees leave the supers and go home, and this implies to me that even the youngest bees in the supers must have been outside and must have oriented at least once. The abandonment technique involves removing the supers when full of honey, then placing them on end beside or behind the hive. After a few hours, or even within minutes sometimes, the bees all leave, one by one, and fly back to their hives, leaving the supers completely free of bees. This applies to even the supers that were right next to the brood chambers (we use excluders, so there is normally no brood in the supers), and must, I would think, contain bees of all ages. I don't know about the very newly emerged bees; perhaps they stay very close to the brood? At any rate, all the bees in the supers do leave, and all seem to find their hive (or some hive) quickly and without any fuss (no searching, etc.). They fly up, make one circle and in they go. I have played around with different placement of the supers on the ground a bit, and have noticed that, in some cases -- particularly where the supers are in contact with the hive, forming a bridge, and the wind is right -- that the the bees will walk back, following scent like ants, but normally, they fly one by one. As Pooh said, "When it comes to bee, you never can tell". allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:52:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: At What Age do Bees Begin to forage? >All the bees leave the supers and go home, and this implies to me that even the youngest bees in the supers must have been outside and must have oriented atleast once. Or could it be they are simply homing in on their particular hive scents? Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:31:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: August ABJ article Hi Guys, That's a very interesting article. The author lists a series of steps that resulted in the contaiminated product. I would recommend that everyone review those steps and evaulate their own management practices. I have worked for commercial outfits that routinely violate all of the steps listed and have done so for more than a decade! It's obvious that the Chinese will get their act together and their honey will soon meet international standards. The international ban on their honey has forced them to clean up their act. But it's just the beginning for scutinizing hoeny worldwide. Regulatory agencies are not only looking for unhealthy honey but also for trade violators. I think American honey will soon be routinely inspected. Are we ready? Or will Chinese honey be labeled as the clean stuff and American honey be labeled as unfit? It would only take one bad incident. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:55:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Clean honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis said "I think American honey will soon be routinely inspected. Are we ready? Or will Chinese honey be labeled as the clean stuff and American honey be labeled as unfit? It would only take one bad incident." The larger packers have started testing the honey for contaminates that are 'rumored' to be used by beekeepers. I understand that one carload has all ready been returned to the beekeeper because of Tylosin contamination. Other not-approved antibodies and miticides are also on 'the list'. I am pleased that private industry is taking the lead. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:50:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: AFB in yard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Robert Brenchley" wrote: > Over a hundred hives belonging to one beekeeper were > infected. Since, as far as I know, only his hives were involved, its pretty > clear that he was the one spreading the disease. My understanding is that he was using combs from colonies that had died out (from AFB) to make splits. He had hives within about 4-6 miles of mine, so I was very relieved that it was found. All credit to our National Bee Unit - they extend the contracts for the Seasonal Bee Inspectors and did a very good job of cleaning it all up. As far as I know, there has been no recurrence. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:44:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Ormand Aebi dead at 88 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "davidbrowder" wrote: > -----Look no farther than the front page of the "R Weaver Apiaries" web site > to top both claims. Records are made to be broken, as I'm sure the athletics > in Greece this Summer will prove. Perhaps I should be feeding my bees steroids. Peter Edwards (in cynical mood - not that it is unusual!) beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:48:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: At What Age do Bees Begin to forage? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Or could it be they are simply homing in on their particular hive > scents? I think I covered that in my original post. For reasons given -- lack of any apparent confusion or searching behaviour -- and observing occasions where abandonment fails, such as after several days of confinement or during light flows, I have concluded that explanation to be unlikely. Nonetheless, that is only my opinion, and my viewpoint is not rigourously proven. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:16:51 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: At What Age do Bees Begin to forage? >> Or could it be they are simply homing in on >> their particular hive scents? > For reasons given -- lack of any apparent confusion or searching > behaviour -- and observing occasions where abandonment fails, such > as after several days of confinement or during light flows, I have > concluded that explanation to be unlikely. Well, let's plug what we know in, and see what lights up: a) Too many people have marked too many entire colonies of bees at each bee's emergence with little number tags and tracked their travels within the hive and in/out the entrance for there to be any but the smallest chance that orientation flights are taken earlier than the literature claims. 1,000 grad students can't be wrong. b) I'm guessing that supers are never too far removed from the hive to which they "belonged" when one does abandonment, but I'm also guessing that for any one pallet, supers will often be closer to another hive entrance than to the entrance of the hive to which they "belonged". c) Anyone who has worked with pheromone lures knows that one can attract bees from quite a distance to the lure, the fingers that handled the lure, the shirt pocket that held the lure for all of 3 minutes, and so on. It would not be unreasonable to presume that, over the distance that supers would be removed from their hives, it would be "easy" for any bee to pick out the "hive odor" or "queen odor" of its own hive, even among 4 or 8 different hives, some even closer to the bee than the bee's "home" hive. At minimum, it is a certainty that the bees can pick up the scent of at least one hive, even if not their "home". I have been known to bring a few of these lures to beekeeping workshops in sealed cigar tubes, and sneak them one by one into unsuspecting shirt pockets just before and during the talks about how bees "know their own hive" and "know their own queen" by pheromones. It is amusing to see just how many bees show no "hive loyalty" at all, being attracted by the first pheromone lure they detect. It is even more fun to watch the lecturer squirm when the obvious questions are asked in light of the actual behavior being demonstrated by the bees at hand. d) But the most important factor (in my view) is that these bees were in a super - the bees are "house bees". When approaching any entrance, they will be very subservient, offering no evasiveness, challenge or fight to the guard bees. Shake a few bees from a frame from a super onto the entrance of another hive, and watch the surprising lack of violence that results as they enter a hive that you know to not be "their" hive. Again, bees consistently demonstrate that "drifting" between hives is not an anomaly at all. So, if you carried some supers further away from the hives to which they belonged, you would have a better set-up to gather data to support or refute your conclusion. Even better if you set supers from a colony "dark" bees among hives of nothing but "light" bees or visa versa. The only known mechanism by which a large fraction of house bees could make it back to "their" hive, or any hive, would be by detecting and following pheromones (or "hive odor", if you must use the term). I'm going to go with the "known mechanism", rather than a "hitherto unknown mechanism", on the grounds that bees consistently follow simply rules and merely appear to be doing something much more complex, deep, or intelligent. A divergent point of view is quoted below from a well-known author of ad-hoc unintentional epistemological poetry: "As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know There are known unknowns. That is to say We know there are some things We do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, The ones we don't know We don't know." - US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld Feb. 12, 2002 DOD news briefing jim (There is a real book entitled "Pitbulls for Dummies". Even more of a disaster just waiting to happen than "Beekeeping For Dummies"?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:22:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Clean honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The larger packers have started testing the honey for contaminates > that are 'rumored' to be used by beekeepers. Apparently Wal-Mart already demands a bacterial count and other test reports as well. My guess is that within a few years, suppliers will be required to provide HACCP (or similar) documentation and also carry product liability insurance. Ability/inability to obtain insurance may turn out to be a factor in survival for commercial beekeepers. If North American beekeepers get smart, and get with the program, this trend to demanding rigourous documentation may prove to be a beneficial and help maintain price for qualifying product, inasmuch as some low-priced imported product may have difficulty providing a truly convincing history and a reassuring enough paper trail to satisfy careful corporate buyers -- and their insurers. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:01:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Sunflower Honey This spring I had a some hives located for pollenation and decided to leave them on location because the owner decided to plant several fields of sunflowers. I figured I could pick up honey off this crop. How unfortunate!! Is there any way to extract the sunflower honey from the supers. I have removed the wonderfully white capped supers and started uncapping. What I have found is an almost cement like frames. The honey has granulated in the cells. It will not extract, what does comes out as a sugarry thick mess that should not be mixed with any other honey. Advise would be greatly appreciated as I have not been around sunflowers. My location is Eden, NC located 9 miles south of the VA border about mid- state. an area called the Peidmont. Thanks Frank Wyatt :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:34:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew W." Subject: ban on Chinese Honey - INPUT needed from beekeepers for print in ABJ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm forwarding the content & link sent to me for posting on Bee-L by = DeWayne Lumpkin, writer for ABJ. =20 DeWayne is digging for response concerning Chinese honey, dumping & = chloramphenicol tainted shipments into the U.S. If you hold an opinion, = fact or story and would like to see some portion in print I would direct = you to the e-mail address below and encourage you to contribute. He's = on a deadline so please act quickly. =20 Matthew Westall - Castle Rock, CO replies to be sent to : Dewaynedwl@aol.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dewaynedwl@aol.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 9:49 PM Subject: For posting on message boards re: Chinese Honey Recent EU decision to drop ban on Chinese Honey has led to official = Chinese statements about EU decisions and US policies. See paraphrased = Chinese statements and please respond. Any replies may be compiled for = an upcoming rebuttal of Chinese statements in an article for Honey = Industry Publication. Read related article from UK Newspaper The = Guardian @ http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1265467,00.html The Chinese say that they had no part in "transshipment" of Chinese = Honey and have no control over what developing countries do with honey = they sell to them? They state that Vietnam, Mexico, Thailand, Argentina, = Malaysia (the list goes on) acting independently and the Chinese had no = knowledge of their disguising "country of origin" and attempting to = circumvent US tariffs and EU ban. Do you believe this? Why or why not? = (Opinions are appreciated, but facts will go further in strengthening US = honey producers position on issues regarding Chinese Honey.) The Chinese say that US Honey Producers fabricate information about = Chinese Honey and that China is not exporting large quantities of = Ultra-filtered honey. They say US Honey producers have made this up as a = "technical barrier to trade." Do you agree? Why or why not? The Chinese say that they are not alone in having honey test positive = for veterinary medicines. They say: "Antibiotic in honey is a global = problem, not just a problem in China. The report on the international = honey industry said that sulfonamides were found in Canadian honey, = tetracycline and streptomycin in American, Mexican, and Argentine honey, = miticides and insecticides in American honey and CAP in Chinese and = European honey. This report manifests that these issues are global in = respect to both geography and ranges of residues." Can you comment on = Chinese position/assertions? =20 The Chinese have stated that tolerance levels for CAP are inconsistent = with levels set for other veterinary medicines and not consistently = applied. They say this is unfair trade practice. Can you comment? Also, do you think the EU lifting their ban on Chinese Honey will = eliminate the need for China to "dump" honey at below market value? Do = you think since the Chinese won't be as desperate for an outlet for = their honey, they may reduce shipments (or export attempts) to the US? = Do you think there's a positive outcome for US honey producers? Will it = affect prices which have been falling? I'm on an incredibly tight deadline (Friday - in three days), hoping to = provide "rebuttal" of the Chinese comments and a "forecast" of likely = events to follow EU lifting ban on Chinese Honey.=20 All responses appreciated, but remember facts, figures, dates, reports - = SPECIFICS - will help most. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:07:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: josh jaros Subject: Re: Clean honey In-Reply-To: <01a201c47402$f4b5faa0$b2e9d518@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I can hardly believe that any of the commercial honey in the U.S. is completely free of unapproved antibiotics. Many beekeepers have already found terramyacin isn't working anymore. I only heard this second hand but the inspector in my state recommended the use of Tylosin for several thousand hives in my area. And I know of several beekeepers that have been using this and many unapproved miticides for several years now without getting fined or caught. It's not something I would do, but what is there to stop others from doing it. Supposedly testing the honey works, and occasionally someone is caught, but some of these things are hard to detect. Josh Jaros --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::