From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:50:04 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEACE49067 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDKJ012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0408A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 54996 Lines: 1245 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:03:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: abandonment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor said: Conditions have a lot to do with abandonment and, in our area, we cannot use the abandonment method because it would set up a big robbing problem. Abandonment works when enough of a honey flow is in progress to keep the bees occupied. *Can* fail when honey flows are only on for periods during the day. You can lose many pounds of honey back into hives when failure occurs. As an example of what I mean. When the honey flow in our area is running all day we can leave the screen door to the honey house open and not a single bee. The minute the nectar flows stop the bees are back trying to gain entrance to the honey house. A flow starts and they are gone again. When all flows are over and supers off we can create a diversion by open feeding in the opposite direction. Works as bees returning from the open feeder are bringing in stores faster than bees trying to rob around the building. Of course not keeping 60-100 hives in your pasture would also be a solution! We do not use the abandon method most of the time because we do not want to handle heavy supers twice plus make an extra trip. Trevor said: You have to be at the hives before dawn next morning to pick up the supers and straighten up the lid before robbing starts. Bees always remember it seems the last source of nectar AND PLACE HONEY WAS ROBBED FROM. What if your truck breaks down or an emergency comes up and you can not return on time? After supers are robbed next comes weak hives. I like fume boards because they are fast but do not use a certain fume board product because the product drives the bees out too slow. I realize from past posts Allen Dick dislikes fume boards for various reasons he has posted before. All valid reasons as are those made by the maker of the slow removal from supers fume board chemical creator about his product. Early in a strong honey flow abandonment works. At the tail end of a honey flow we need to remove honey supers as fast as possible before robbing starts.Pulling all lids helps as long as the robbing has not progressed too far. Large scale robbing in a large bee yard is not a pretty sight. Tens of thousands of bees fighting over honey. Stinging each other and the beekeepers! Some of the worst stinging I have seen has been while trying to feed starving honey bees. A small leak on a syrup pump can cause robbing or leaking tank. Every year at our bee meetings in fall a new beekeeper stands up and tells of getting many stings trying to put wet supers back on hives for the bees to clean up in mid day, without a honey flow on, when bees are at the largest population of the year and all or most of the bees are in the hive. Right before dark is the best time to return wet supers to the hive to avoid robbing. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:44:02 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: abandonment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I like fume boards because they are fast but do not use a certain fume board > product because the product drives the bees out too slow. We used to like fume boards (acid boards as we called them) but they have been discontinued in Australia, many years ago, because of residue problems in the honey. Our overseas customers want residue free honey. There are still a few many irresponsible beekeepers around (in OZ) who think they can get away with using fume boards but it comes back to haunt them in the end. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:27:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Gormanston MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well another year's course at Gormanston is over, all in all, I think it was very successful, with over 250 participants. The interest in the microscopy was gratifying and the frames with foul brood and with laying workers were interesting to contrast. The highlight for me was using the queen pheromone to detect drone congregation areas. Although I had been with Karl Showler when he did it. This was the first time that I was in charge of the fishing rod and lure. We did find drones and they formed the requisite comets around the lure. However, I had also got pheromone on my hand and from there to my hair and also to the frame of my spectacles. I am reliably informed that I also had comets forming at my rear and I had a drone sitting on the corner of the left lens of my spectacles intent on ravishing me. It certainly gave a close up view. My thanks to those who came to the demonstrations, especially those who were willing to attempt pollen slide making and identification, acarine dissection and the making of slides for the detection of nosema. I hope you found the exercise worthwhile Ruary :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 07:09:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Subject: Re: abandonment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, OK, this is a new one on me. Please explain abandonmemt. With gaps in the lid, etc, it does not sound like escapes are being used. I don't believe I have heard or read of this method. Pardon my ignorance. Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 00:25:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Research Project- Local honey as treatment for hay fever MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:05:36 +0100, Graham &/or Annie Law < gandboss@NTLWORLD.COM> wrote: >Questions; >. Do honey bees collect pollen from grasses? Zachary said: **Bees have seen collecting corn and rag weed pollen, both are wind pollen. I almost killed myself once (being highly allergic to rag weed pollen) by chewing a piece of comb honey with pollen. Answer to Zachary & research project in U.K.: Interesting! Never heard of the problem before. Our bees gather large amounts of pollen for winter while on fall wildflower locations. You can see the pollen in cells in the honey supers. Most is spun out with the honey. The honey is dark , full of suspended pollen and many swear the honey helps their allergies (including myself). I have used the fall honey for my ragweed allergies for years. If I forget to take a teaspoon a day for around three days my allergies start up. When I start the fall honey again the allergies slow down. The only thing which will let me breath normal is the first frost but I do not have to take medicine for my ragweed allergies . Everybody is different but my customers say the dark fall honey only filtered through nylon helps with their allergies. I doubt they would keep buying the dark (bakery grade in my opinion) honey if did not help. Most take a teaspoon a day ( my dose) which would be quite a bit less than you ate in your comb honey. I do not sell comb honey with pollen in it and if a cell slips by would not be ragweed at the time of year when made. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 13:03:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: At What Age do Bees Begin to forage? >I wonder -- and maybe Zach can help me with this, since it is right down his >alley -- > >i.) How early after emerging bees physically can fly. I suspect this may >depend on how well the larvae were fed, since I see some pretty weak >looking baby bees in malnourished hives and **You got lucky again:) I have unpublished data showing that bees take 5-7 days to fly -- none would be able to fly on day 1 (same day as emergence), about 5% next day, ... 100% takes 5-7 days depending on colony. THis is temperature dependent. I reared bees at 25 C and they are not able to fly at all on day 8. I am still waiting for data to show that temperature can affect flight muscle structure before I publish the data. > >ii.) How far from the brood baby bees wander, since the supers we set aside >from abandoning were sometimes mere inches from brood, but separated from >it by an excluder. I would say 95% of bees <4 days old stay on open/sealed brood. because they want to stay at warmer area to develop their flight muscles. Tome Seeley actuall mapped distribution of bees at different locations (in an observation hive) as they aged. > >iii.) Will baby bees go through an excluder? Maybe that explains >everything. **I am sure they can, if there are brood upstairs... >If the bees do switch to foraging early in a heavy flow, perhaps that, along with the competition for cells from incoming nectar, helps explain the >reduction in brood rearing and queen raising during a heavy flow. **Earlier foraging in a heavy flow is predicted by my social inhibition model (more foragers out, more time foragers spend time outside, means less contact with younger bees to inhibit them). there are some data from other scientists that are consistent with this idea. but nobody has actually delibrately tested the idea. Next time you can tag some bees and see if this true :) >Thanks, all, for your input on this interesting question. **Zachary Huang, MSU :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 13:28:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: A device used to remove venom from bites and stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I get lots of email. Here's one that might appeal to some on this list. Personally, I seldom worry about bee venom, or even consider it, but I realise that some do. allen -- Begin forwarded message -- Here at Sawyer Products, we sell the Sawyer Extractor, a device used to remove venom from bites and stings. We were wondering if you would be interested in conducting a study on the effectiveness of our product on bee stings. Please let us know if you would be interested or know of any beekeepers that would be interested. We already have lined up the doctors who have agreed to oversee this study. Travis Avery Sawyer Products www.sawyerproducts.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 20:44:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Research Project - using local honey as treatment for hay fever MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 31/07/2004 05:20:10 GMT Standard Time,=20 LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > >=E2=80=A2 How can you get honey analysed for its pollen content - p= lace, > >cost, timescale etc? >=20 > **This is well established. basically dilute with water, centrifuge and=20 > count with > hemocytometer. The main cost is labor. Need a hemocytometer, centrifuge a= nd=20 > a > microscope (40x subject, 10 x ocular). >=20 Read Rex Sawyer's books, 'Honey identification for beekeepers' or ' Pollen=20 identification for beekeepers'. They come with a set of punched cards that a= re=20 easily transferred to a database if you are keen enough and have the skills. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 07:39:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Research Project - using local honey as treatment for hay fever MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not quite true, With Sawyers Pollen Identification , you had the option of buying it with or without the set of punched cards. His Honey Identification never had any cards. Pollen identification is now out of print, so the chance of getting cards is diminished even more. Pollen identification carried details of more pollens than Honey identification does, but Honey identification does more on some of the more common foreign ( non Anglo-Celtic Archipelago) pollens. Also these books go only into basic identification using a microscope up X400, as my paleontologist friends keep telling me you really need to go to X1000 or higher for definitive analysis. I would suggest that you try the Botany department of your nearest University who might be both able and willing to help you. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: They come with a set of punched cards that are easily transferred to a database if you are keen enough and have the skills. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 09:12:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: abandonment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We do not use the abandon method most of the time because we do not > want to handle heavy supers twice plus make an extra trip.... That is a definite drawback. > What if your truck breaks down or an emergency > comes up and you can not return on time? You have to be certain you can. We had multiple crews and redundant trucks. > I realize from past posts Allen Dick dislikes fume boards for various > reasons he has posted before. Right, Bob, but we did use BeeGo extensively the last year we were commercial, because it turned out to be one of those odd years that good reliable abandonment windows were few, and because I did not trust the capabilities of my crew at that time. Oddly enough, in the previous years, years when we did not, and had not, ever used BeeGo, we got back reports of butyric levels in our honey approaching those of people who did use butyric. That makes me wonder how much science there is behind a lot of residue testing, both the theory and the practice, and how much is just plain old fanciful extrapolation and other forms of guessing. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 09:29:04 -0400 Reply-To: DanJan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DanJan Subject: labels for square front honey bears? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know where I can get labels for square front honey bears. They would be 1 1/4 by 1 1/2 inches square? Thanks Dan Veilleux In the mountains of North Carolina Zone 6a :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:29:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Pollen identification In-Reply-To: <002501c4785b$9168fb70$7b9c869f@sn010959620064> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The two main references I use for pollen identification: * Methods of melissopalynilogy de Louveaux (IBRA), look for it on IBRA, you will find the exact year, page, and so on. As mentionned by Mr. Huang, you need a centrifugation after dilution of the honey sample in de-I water. Then you color the pollen with diluted fushin. Observation under microscope. I use only the x10x100 combination. Need also some small basic lab equipment and.... your own pollen references in gelatine (I mean a local pollen "hard" data base for comparison). * Visual identification guide, 1 picture of plant's pollen under microspcope for each plant: Sampling and identifying allergenic pollens and molds by Grant Smith (Blewstone press, San Antonio, Texas) Local university lab, palynology department, may help you but their expertise is usually much more in fossil/sediment samples and they use pollen acetolyse, a much more complexe procedure that may generate some pollen distorsion. Enjoy this pleasant activity ! Hervé Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:39:09 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: [BEE-L] Research Project - using local honey as treatment for hay fever In-Reply-To: <002501c4785b$9168fb70$7b9c869f@sn010959620064> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just for the rcord: The pollendtabase you can download from my site is based on Sawyer and the help descibes how to make microscope preparations with more. Best regards Jorn Johanesson maybe the best and Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. With integrated update facility. version 8.0.2.7 Software translated into 12 languages, and more is comming. hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk forum = http://apimo.dk/apimo_forum e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 15:21:32 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: abandonment > we got back reports of butyric levels in our honey... > ...makes me wonder how much science there is behind > a lot of residue testing, both the theory and the practice, > and how much is just plain old fanciful extrapolation and > other forms of guessing. Assuming that the above was not a rhetorical rant, it is difficult to imagine that anyone doing any form of residue testing would indulge in "guessing". But lying is not guessing, is it? I would be much less suspicious of someone who refuses to consider purchasing your honey as a result of such testing than I would be of someone who leverages "residues" as an excuse to offer a lower price, or a lower-than contracted price. Anyone testing should be able to describe at least their equipment. This would define the inherent limits of the tests that were done. For the specific case of Albertans, Beemaid was rumored to still be using a Gas Chromatograph as recently as 2001, which limits them to roughly a 5 ppm detection floor for just about everything. While I agree that one has to ask pointed questions about "detections" that are right at the limit of detection for the technology in use, I doubt that anyone could cry "false positive" about results from a circa 1980s GC or GC/MS, even if the level was near 5 ppm. Therefore, in the event of "impossible" results, I would suspect confusion about which sample was which (or which drums are whose) before I would suspect either the lab gear or the technician's use thereof. Regardless, a prudent person keeps several jars from each extraction to use as "reference samples" in the event of such confusion. jim (Flip back and forth between CSPAN-1 coverage of US House and Senate debates and CSPAN-2 coverage of the British House of Commons "Question Time" sometime. Its scary just how much more articulate and better-prepared Tony Blair is than any US politician since Jimmy Carter has been.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 22:46:50 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: labels for square front honey bears? > ... labels for square front honey bears. They > would be 1 1/4 by 1 1/2 inches square? All my labels are printed by Piedmont Label of Bedford, VA, which is now owned by Smyth. As Piedmont Label started out doing labels for canned tomatoes (for reasons unknown, Bedford was a nexus for tomato canning in the 1920s and 1930s), they know all about doing food labels, and know all the regulations for everywhere, planet-wide. They also have a "money-saving approach" that should make beekeepers who can plan ahead happy: http://www.smythco.com/products/primary/combolbl.php These folks are nowhere near the cheapest option one could find, but you get what you pay for, even in something as "trivial" as a label. ...but you want to make your own, to put on honey you may have even already bottled, don't you? Sigh. OK, go down to Staples, and get the pack of 600 Avery 8250 labels (1" x 2-5/8") for $16.00. Print them "two up" and then slice them in half to make two labels, each 1" x 1 1/4". But you just spent over a penny per label, and you still have to pay for ink for your ink-jet printer, and your time. Since you are designing labels, the label that has consistently sold the most honey says: "We eat all we can, and sell the rest" But we hope to have a new slogan that will outperform the old one: "So good, you shouldn't even try it once" But if labels are such an afterthought, you don't really need labels at all, do you? jim (EAS 2004 is in PA and is NEXT WEEK!!! Its just like my 11th birthday party was, except for taller attendees and no undercover cops http://www.easternapiculture.org/programs/2004/ ) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 23:09:24 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Research Project- Local honey as treatment for hay fever > How can you get honey analysed for its pollen content > - place, cost, timescale etc? There is an actual lab that can do a professional job of detecting the "origin" (county, region, season, floral source) of honey. I remember hearing our State Apiarist (Keith of Virginia) say "U Texas Austin", but I forget the name of the professor Try e-mailing Keith Tignor at ktignor@vdacs.state.va.us, he may have contact information. jim (Seven Springs, site of EAS 2004 has an miniature golf course. Anyone up for a game of midnight mini-golf Wed night/Thurs morning? Maximum wager $10 a hole?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 23:33:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: labels for square front honey bears? (In 25 words or less) Jim responded to a simple question with over 35 lines of text ; > ) Dan, try Betterbee (www.betterbee.com), They sell 4 sizes. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 23:35:58 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: At What Age do Bees Begin to forage? > I recently shook some bees from a hive 6 ft away (on open brood, make > sure no queen) to a weak hive and most young bees walked into > the new hive, instead of returning to their original hive! I've seen this also, which forces me to wonder if bees too young to guard or forage are both exempted from, and oblivious to the entire issue of "colony odor". It has encouraging implications for splits and queen introductions, but I still like the simple traditional "walk-away split" best. > The phenomenon I mention is only observed when there has been > an uninterrupted heavy flow underway for a few days. Do you recall dates? What were the daily high and low temps on those days? From what I've seen, temperature drops of more than 5 degrees F can help to move bees through "bee escapes" down to the brood chamber, and out of supers that have been flipped on their sides atop the hives. Large temp drops might "trap" the bees into forming a small cluster in the super, and waiting for warmth. > I suspect that, in some areas of the continent, this phenomenon > is seldom, if ever, seen, since abandonment does not work well > except under specific conditions... There are a number of beekeepers who do their fall harvest when there is frost on the pumpkin, or even snow on the ground. Under these conditions, I can guarantee that abandonment will work every time. :) > ...and requires expert judgement. In my book, use of the term "abandon" in regard to one's crop evinces a distinct lack of even the tiniest shred of any semblance of judgment, but down here, we are concerned with not just robber bees, but BEARS. jim (One of my self-burned compilation CDs for automobile use has songs by The Cars and The Police. The CD is labeled "Police Cars") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:57:49 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "ADAMSON, Karl" Subject: Re: abandonment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Allen dick wrote: > we got back reports of butyric levels in our honey... > ...makes me wonder how much science there is behind > a lot of residue testing, both the theory and the practice, > and how much is just plain old fanciful extrapolation and > other forms of guessing. Laboratories are paid to produce a number, they are not paid to explain the meaning of that number. A terrible practice in my opinion. Take Butyric acid for instance. How is it made by man? In the old days it was made commercially from the fermentation of sugars and starches by various fungi, a messy but effective process. Here in Australia, you can forget to put the butter in the fridge and produce a good supply ;) How is it made by bees? The same way. Although, I doubt they appreciate it, the production of butyric acid will continue until the fungi is dead and the honey mature. Thus, you could conclude that ALL honey has some background level of butyric acid in it. I am not familiar with what the American tolerance for butyric acid in honey is. But if this level is near the normal background level then it is bound to create problems until people start to realise what the numbers mean. In Australia, we have the same problem with naturally occurring 'chemicals', that create 'false positives' all the time. A responsible (thinking?) laboratory will account for the problem through good science and a knowledge of the chemical they are dealing with. However, in an increasingly commercial world lab results are being used more and more as leverage in contract renegotiations without due regard for the science behind them. As food for thought, what kind of fat do you put in your grease paddies, these turning rancid may also be a source of butyric acid contamination, bees may even produce it as a metabolite (just a thought)! The point I'm making is that this is a naturally occurring substance, a detection by itself is not necessarily an indication of bad management, it could be an indication of any number of problems happening from the flower to the bottle, a number is a number, the devil is in the interpretation! Has anyone done any research comparing butyric acid levels in fumed and unfumed honey? Karl Adamson Canberra Find out more about the APVMA at http://www.apvma.gov.au or phone the switch on +61 26272 5158 Important: All e-mails received by the APVMA are automatically classified by an e-mail manager. In addition, all e-mails received by the APVMA are screened for compliance to the Authority's e-mail policy. This e-mail (including any attachments) is intended only to be read or used by the addressee. It contains information that may be confidential and legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of any part of this e-mail is unauthorised. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify ITGroup@apvma.gov.au or call +61 2 62723168) and then delete this message and any copies of it. We do not warrant that any attachment(s) to this e-mail is free of errors or viruses. We recommend that attachments be scanned with the latest anti-virus software prior to opening. You can subscribe to Ag/ Vet information updates by clicking here: http://www.apvma.gov.au/listserv/subscription_registration.shtml :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:46:45 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: cleaning extracted supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think I read somewhere that when the extracted supers are placed above = the inner cover, the bees will move the honey down. Is this so, or is there = a better way? The bees have some RR supers that are not quite done, and I want to get then off before the autumn flow. I usually let this go for = the bees over wintering, but depending on the flow might super again. There = is plenty of forage still, and they are bringing in honey. =20 One other question is that since yanking the supers, several hives are fairly covered with bees. Should I super these? I am about down to foundation only, and don't think they will do anything on them. Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen =D5hr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:47:55 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: abandonment > As food for thought, what kind of fat do you put in your grease paddies, > these turning rancid may also be a source of butyric acid contamination, > bees may even produce it as a metabolite (just a thought)! If one is using vegetable shortening ("Crisco") patties, they cannot produce butyric acid or butyric anhydride as they age and degrade. Aging and breakdown of vegetable shortening patties results in an odor that, to me, smells like cheap paraffin candles, but most people don't smell much of anything. A better way to tell that a patty is "too old" is to poke it - old patties get hard. > I am not familiar with what the American tolerance for butyric acid > in honey is... > ...The point I'm making is that this is a naturally occurring substance, a > detection by itself is not necessarily an indication of bad management... Beekeepers have been misled. Deliberately. Butyric acid is NOT the same as butyric anhydride. "Bee-Go", "Honey Robber", and (in Canada) "Bee Repel" are butyric ANHYDRIDE. The equations for these two different chemicals are: Butyric ACID (CH3 CH2 CH2-COOH) Butyric ANHYDRIDE (CH3 CH2 CH2 CO)2 O Note the classic "carboxyl group" on the end of the equation for Butyric Acid, the "COOH". (Dim memories of chemistry class may be causing pain for some readers, so I'll stop there.) To further confuse matters, some people use the term "Butanoic" rather than "Butyric". Not knowing the difference is not the beekeeper's fault. The parties who make and sell butyric anhydride to beekeepers have spent over 2 decades piling on so many half-truths and evasions packaged in disingenuous phrasings as to erase the customary distinction between mere deceit and criminal fraud. The net result is that even groups with well-educated staff who would know the difference if they thought about it for a second make the error of using the names "butyric acid" and "butyric anhydride" as if they were synonyms for the same chemical. Here is one example, the Canadian Honey Council: http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=1292 But don't blame them - this is what happens when for-profit companies scheme to sell foul-smelling, toxic, non-food-grade chemicals and con beekeepers into using them in close contact or direct contact with their honey crops, sold as food. To convince people do something that makes no sense, one must mislead. Butyric acid does not repel bees, which should be obvious as it is found in honey in trace amounts. Butyric anhydride can repel bees, and every other carbon-based lifeform. :) While any anhydride will, in theory, break down over time through hydroxylation and oxidation with the air, these oxidation processes are frustrated in the case of uptake in honey, as honey contains a noticeable lack of free oxygen molecules, only a limited amount of water, and has a habit of absorbing odors. So, while natural butyric acid can be found in honey in trace amounts, and while butyric acid is the natural byproduct of events like butter going rancid, this is not the same thing as butyric anhydride, which smells much worse than any example of rancid butter one might encounter, and has no natural source. > Has anyone done any research comparing butyric acid levels in fumed and > unfumed honey? The only reason that labs have not differentiated between: a) butyric acid, which certainly may be of natural origin if found in honey in tiny amounts b) (Unoxidized/unhyrolyzed) butyric anhydride, not of natural origin in honey is that no one has asked them to do so. As an easy "home test kit", most noses can detect butyric anhydride at about 10 parts per million, so if it can be smelled at all, it is likely 10ppm or higher. More than 10ppm, and it starts to gross people out. After a few hours, your nose becomes overloaded, and you "get used to" the smell. You can't smell it. Everyone else can, but you can't. Most people walking into your honey house or super storage facility in winter or early spring can smell the butyric anhydride you used LAST year. Some can smell it from the driveway. The "good news" for those whose reward for all their hard work is a warming room full of supers that smell more like toxic waste than a gourmet delicacy is that you can heat your honey to within an inch of its life, and "cook down" all the butyric anhydride, and end up with nothing more than darker honey with a suspiciously high level of butyric acid. But this isn't really fooling anyone either. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:48:38 -0400 Reply-To: Kate Henderson Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kate Henderson Subject: Abandoment Question I certainly am a novice compared to reading all your posts, although have had bees 15 years, a dozen hives at the most. Now for the first time, my hives are several hours away at my future farm and poses a dilemna for me to remove honey supers. I get there late afternoon and leave 24 hours later, several times a month. I do have a caretaker there who is learning and has a beesuit and smoker to use and can help. . I was thinking of an alternative to the fume board or abandoment method. How about if I put several supers at a time on a triangle escape board on the back of a pickup parked 50 feet away ( in the shade)and seal all openings and leave for a few days? I am thinking that the abandoment method of stacking hives on their sides wouldn't work here, because if they were left a few days, would definetly start getting robbed out. Should the triangle board be on top(reversed of course) to let light in or on the bottom? Should the truck be parked closer so has not to disorient the bees returning home? We are only talking of perhaps a dozen supers and I have 3 triangle escape boards. Kate *** Kate Henderson Sheepy Valley Farm kate@sheepyvalley.com www.sheepyvalley.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:06:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BETriangular Escape Boards (was Abandoment Question) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Kate Henderson (sheeplady@CATSKILL.NET) asked about alternatives to the abandonment method and fume boards, and specifically mentioned triangular escape boards. Judging by her email address, I'm guessing Kate lives in the Catskill Mountains, where I would be wary of the abandonment method at this time of year, as it is likely to start robbing, especially if the abandoned supers are left for days. Kate shared this concern. I base this on my experiences in the Saratoga area of New York (about 100 miles north of the Catskills). As far as the triangular escape boards go, my recommendation is to get more of them. Place an empty super near the hive (I would advise against a pickup parked 50 feet away) and then place the bottom escape board perpendicular on the empty super, triangular side down. Stack your honey supers on top of the escape board, and cap the stack off with an escape board, triangular side up. Make ABSOLUTELY sure to seal any spaces between supers and supers and escape boards. Escape boards work great with tight equipment, they are a disaster with leaky equipment. Remember the duct tape! The bees can now exit via either the top OR the bottom escape board, and return to their hive (hence the recommendation to stack the supers close to their hive). On a good foraging day I have seen supers vacated in only a few hours using this method. I have also seen stubborn bees stay days using this method, but that is rare. In such cases (no, sealed brood was NOT involved, the bees just didn't leave for reasons unknown to me) I had to resort to brushing the remaining bees from the supers. I have never tried combining stacks of supers from different hives and would advise against it. I suspect the bees would fight at the exits and clog the escape boards. If you plan to leave the stacked supers for "days" make sure they are protected from sun (without bees to regulate temperatures you need to be concerned about overheating and menting combs) and be sure to protect against rain (rain will fall through the center hole of the escape borad). Aaron Morris - thinking escape boards; great when they work, bane when they don't! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:16:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Custom extraction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I am negotiating to sell my entire crop in the super. Weigh the supers full, weigh the supers empty, charge for the difference. I have a fairly nice extraction set up, but I wouldn't mind skipping that part of the harvest. I will keep the cappings, so they will be weighed too. I am not sure what fee to negotiate for this sale. The options could be, going rate (price per pound) less a set price per pound for the extraction service, or going price per pound less set fee for each super. The later option boils down to a set custom extraction fee. Have others experience along this line? What is a fair price for custom extraction? Aaron Morris - thinking no sticky door knobs! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:35:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: BETriangular Escape Boards (was Abandoment Question) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the bees just didn't leave for reasons > unknown to me) Two reasons many bees in a hive may not be flying often enough to be well enough conditioned to a.) want to go out and b.) return to the original home if they do take a flight, 1.) are inclement weather and 2.) swarm preparations. Spring and fall, when light or no flows are on, if you pick up and move a hive, you will see bees follow it wherever you go, then enter it. However, in summer, when a strong flow is on, they may never even notice you are moving the hive, and just fly away to return later, puzzled about its wherabouts. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 20:46:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: WV State Beekeepers Fall Meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WV State Beekeepers Fall Meeting September 24 - 25, 2004 Cedar Lakes Ripley, West Virginia contact; Tom Kees booksnbees@citynet.net More information to follow as I get it. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 06:15:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Bassett Subject: api life var anyone using this product have any experience with attempting to requeen while the product is on the hives? thanks mike bassett n.y. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 20:27:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Honey bottler Hello, all. I hope someone can help me. At 120 hives more or less, I don't need a lot of bottling equipment. But filling the bottles for Farmer's Market is so messy with the system we use that I've been thinking about getting something to help. And early this week my wife, who does much of the bottling broke her ankle at the County fair. Do any of you have any advice for me? I'd like something that I can pour the strained honey into, and pull a lever or something so we can fill bottles without so much mess. Thanks much Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 21:29:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Honey bottler In-Reply-To: <200408070027.i77004XY005157@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:27 PM 8/6/2004, you wrote: >I'd like something that I can pour the strained honey into, and >pull a lever or something so we can fill bottles without so much mess. I use a 15 gallon tank fitted with a ball valve. I belive it's a 1-1/2" full port valve. The valve is pointed down and you can fill bottles with no drips. It's much easier than the simple gate valves I've used in the past. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 00:10:37 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Honey bottler The ball valves that Tim spoke of are available from any plumbing supply house in a handy (and cheap!) plastic version, which may wear out over time, but can be replaced about 10 times and still be cheaper than a brass valve. If you look at the bee supply catalogs, they offer very expensive brass valves with long actuator arms to be hooked to a foot pedal. One might be able to kludge up a similar mechanism with a plumbing-store ball valve, plastic or metal. I'd use a counterweight rather than a spring to close the valve, but either will work. I like electrically operated valves, but I got mine cheap from a contractor that does industrial work. I built a timer for it that allows one to adjust it to exactly fill a container with the press of a button, but I must fiddle with the timer to account for temperature (and hence honey viscosity) and the basic viscosity of the honey itself, which can vary a bit from pail to pail or (drum to drum). jim (Terror Alert Level ORANGE! Orange you scared?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::