From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:49:22 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SARE_FRAUD_X3,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B3194905C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDKD012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0408C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 190896 Lines: 4360 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 07:07:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: > I am wondering, do you breed your own stock or do you buy in new queens to > re-queen? Grew my own. The problem is not in the bee but in the particulates/solids in the honey. When ya gotta go ya gotta go. You might not see a problem. Most in my area harvest their honey once in the year, in September. So they compare themselves with others in the area, as I did. Their hives will have a large concentration of goldenrod and aster. Every scientific article I have read has sugar and hcfs as the best overwintering feed for the north since both are very low in solids. Plus they do not crystallize at the drop of a hat. There is also lots of info on granulated honey and its effect on an overwintered colony. Granulated honey does not liquefy instantly, but gradually and can ferment during the transition, another no-no for the bees well being. You can overwinter bees on goldenrod and aster. Just not well. As I said, when I stopped it my bees did much better. I would lose several colonies over winter but after I shifted, lost none for several winters, even with tracheal around. That was when others around me were losing 50-80% of their colonies. They were expert beekeepers and I just a novice. I listened to George Imire and Tony Jadczak and they were right. (Plus, read a lot of science that confirmed their advice.) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:17:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joanna Subject: Honey cake reciepe Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have the recipe for Honey cake that is used at the Honey = Shows. Joanna :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 07:41:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Field day at the beelab. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The staff of the USDA, ARS Honey-Bee Breeding Laboratory, in cooperation with the Louisiana State Beekeepers? Association invites you to the 8^th Annual Field Day on *Saturday,* *October 9, 2004* at our facility in Baton Rouge. --- 0 --- http://msa.ars.usda.gov/la/btn/hbb/Fieldday/Fieldday8.htm Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 896 5247 > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 10:18:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: goldenrod honey for bee buildup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is little I can add to Mike's and Bill's comments. But I can reinforce both. IMO, 'aster' is the culprit on granulation and I don't think goldenrod is any quicker to granulate than most of our 'wildflower' nectars. I know of two reasonably large beekeepers (300-500 hives) in REAL north climates who each overwinter in single deeps, by feeding an average of 60 lbs of syrup per hive. AFTER they are reduced to singles. Both claim losses of less than 5%, and used to claim losses of less than 1% (before mites). Both barrel feed to get the syrup into the hives...but there are not many places on Long Island where barrel feeding would be practical! All that said...does goldenrod produce nectar in your area? Where it is on lime soil, goldenrod seems to always produce nectar. The more acid the soil, the less reliable is goldenrod production. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 10:28:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: styrofoam feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "I have used some Bee Max styrofoam hive-top feeders this year, and the ants have ruined them." These feeders are one of the best pieces of beekeeping equipment that has come along, and I am distressed that the manufacturer does not emphasize that they NEED TO BE painted, inside and out! I think he is concerned that this will be seen as an obstacle to sales. Use ordinary latex paint. Two coats. It will adhere well, and is most definitely not poisonous...or it would not be allowed to be sold! I've used painted styro feeders (based on advice from Europe, where they originated) for 5-6 years now with no difficulties. Without painting: 1. If the ants didn't get it, it would (in a few years) be reduced to dust by ultraviolet rays. 2. The mold that seems to invariably grow on the inside would be almost impossible to remove. 3. The ants and mice will chew holes in it. Alternatively, buy the new vacuum formed hive top feeders from Mann Lake. While I personally prefer the styro feeders, I think they are overpriced and the Mann Lake feeders are a better value. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:37:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: styrofoam feeders In-Reply-To: <005801c482d4$1d4698a0$b2e9d518@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >These feeders are one of the best pieces of beekeeping equipment that has >come along, > >Lloyd >Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. >Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb >Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps >and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. I'm glad to hear this from an experienced beekeeper. I'd given up on them because I'd tried unsuccessfully to use them several times. The bees simply didn't take the syrup, whereas all other hives with baggie feedeers did. I did the requisite scientfic switcheroo with the same results. I also made a trail of syrup over the edge. Lloyd's suggestion that they be painted might help, if only to help with the mildew. Any other suggestions to get the bees to take the feed? Am I unique with this problem? The seller of the feeder at Dadant seems to think so. Mea :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:14:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: styro feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The bees simply didn't take the syrup, whereas all other hives with baggie feedeers did." I forgot to mention...there is supposed to be a 1/16"-1/8" gap between the bottom of the Plexiglas and the bottom of the feeder. I ran into a lot with NO gap. To fix this either, (1) insert a twig someplace along the bottom of the Plexiglas or, (2) take the Plexiglas out and LIGHTLY apply a coarse sandpaper to the bottom of the Plexiglas and remove 1/16th-1/8th. I've done both, and either works fine. I prefer the sandpaper as that fix is permenent. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 09:18:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: josh jaros Subject: Re: goldenrod honey for bee buildup In-Reply-To: <005701c482d2$ed24a000$b2e9d518@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lloyd Spear wrote: I know of two reasonably large beekeepers (300-500 hives) in REAL north climates who each overwinter in single deeps, by feeding an average of 60 lbs of syrup per hive. AFTER they are reduced to singles. Both claim losses of less than 5%, and used to claim losses of less than 1% (before mites). How far north? Could you specify a location please? Also, what strain of bees do they run? Josh Jaros __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:30:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Northern beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit " How far north? Could you specify a location please? Also, what strain of bees do they run?" Both use NWC's. One is located near Traverse City, MI and the other near Barrie, Ontario. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:43:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Honey cake reciepe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Joanna" asked: Does anyone have the recipe for Honey cake that is used at the Honey Shows. We have used this one for many years - it is a simple recipe and. unlike many, it uses no sugar: Ingredients: 8 ozs self-raising flour 6 ozs honey 4 ozs butter, margarine or a mixture 6 ozs sultanas 2 eggs A pinch of salt Method: Cream the butter and honey. Beat the eggs well and add alternately with sifted flour and salt - save a little flour to add with the sultanas. Beat all well and lightly - a little milk can be added if required. Turn in the sultanas and stir well. Bake in a well-buttered circular tin 6½" to 7½" diameter for 1¼ hours in a moderate oven. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:40:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: Commercial top design I currently have some access to cypress lumber cut to order and am interested in making some hive tops for 10 frame hives and 5 frame nucs. I am interested in design input. The tops that I have made so far have been with an exterior rated plywood that covers the entire top of the hive with some overhang on the short side of hives that gets nailed to some 1x2. I prime and paint but the tops look like they are not a lifetime product. The cypress comes in a width such that I would need to use 2 pieces to cover the top. I expect that strength wise this design would need more to stay together. Another design I have seen made is by Jack Tapp's Chapel Hill NC Busy Bee Apiaries. I bought some from him for $10/each and they were made of cypress of good quality (fairly smooth without knots). The top consists of 2 boards, there is some overhang over the short side of the hive, and some wood on top of the hive connecting everything together (I think something like a 1x4 that connects to both the piece that overhangs and the pieces that form the bulk of the top). I think this design would be very sufficient but cost more to make. The other design I have not held in my hand but have seen on TV. The American Honey Board has a video out that describes beekeeping. In case you might have seen it it starts out with a man openign the door to the house with various improper greetings until he uses "Honey, I'm home". It consists of wood across the top, reinforced by wood on top (could have been 1x2 up to 1x4) but no overhang. It also looked like it had a hole and closure that could be used for bucket feeding. If you are familiar with anything along this design I would like your feedback (do they stay steady on a tied down load?) What kind should I make? What styles of commercial tops are you familiar and what do you think of them? Thank you, Joe :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:48:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Joe Miller (Bethel NC USA)" Subject: 2005 Meetings Where are the 2005 bee meetings and when are they? I'll restrict replies to North American continent only. ALong those lines, what national/international associations could benefit a growing sideliner? Thank you, Joe :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:31:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Honey cake reciepe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/15/2004 3:51:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: sultanas forgive my ignorance, but what is that? Kathy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:10:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Goldenrod and colony development. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill & All, > Grew my own. The problem is not in the bee but in the > particulates/solids in the honey. When ya gotta go ya gotta go. > When ya gotta go ya gotta go, meaning the bees or the honey? Or are you speaking of going to the little boys room? Just Kidding!! I will take that grew your own means past tense so you no longer breed your own. So now you bring in someone else's bees in your location, not keeping a local stock? > You can overwinter bees on goldenrod and aster. Just not well. > This is contrary to what Mike Palmer stated in which he stated that colonies winter good. MikePalmer, could you possibly give us the layman's take on why the bees you are familiar with can winter good on such honey where other beekeepers colonies could not do it to the degree of wintering good? > Every scientific article I have read has sugar and hcfs as the best > overwintering feed for the north since both are very low in solids. Plus > they do not crystallize at the drop of a hat. There is also lots of info > on granulated honey and its effect on an overwintered colony. Granulated > honey does not liquefy instantly, but gradually and can ferment during > the transition, another no-no for the bees well being. > I guess I can't argue with science, the facts have been proven with out a shadow of doubt. > As I said, when I stopped it my bees did much better. I would lose > several colonies over winter but after I shifted, lost none for several > winters, even with tracheal around. That was when others around me were > losing 50-80% of their colonies. They were expert beekeepers and I just > a novice. > I don't know but, there could have been other factors involved in you success and there loses. > I listened to George Imire and Tony Jadczak and they were right. (Plus, > read a lot of science that confirmed their advice.) > Science is not to be disputed. I have heard of but not seen of studies that say the opposite. I did read of one article, in the last year in ABJ, that was recommending honey over sugar and hcfs. I guess it all depends on who you listen to, and really though, how you manage the bees and the queens. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:26:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honey cake reciepe In-Reply-To: <004d01c48308$7fd10bc0$e98387d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From the internet- Sultanas The sultana differs from the raisin in two ways, one of which is fairly apparent. It is lighter in colour – the lighter the better, in quality terms – but it is also the sun-dried grape of one variety alone, the green, seedless Sultana grape of ancient (possibly Persian) lineage. I had no idea what they were either. Not sure if they are the same as "golden raisins" sold in the US. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:48:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: goldenrod honey for bee buildup- fall honey In-Reply-To: <005701c482d2$ed24a000$b2e9d518@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > IMO, 'aster' is the culprit on granulation and I don't think goldenrod is > any quicker to granulate than most of our 'wildflower' nectars. My issue is with fall honey in the NE US and it is difficult to separate nectars. We get Aster, Goldenrod and Honeydew about the same time and all are not beneficial for overwintering, especially honeydew. Not sure how you can count on the bees only bring in goldenrod over the fall nectar season. I have said this before, but fall honey is much better than summer honey in regard to body and flavor. People who like honey will usually pick the fall honey as their favorite. Kids and people new to honey usually like light honey. Fall honey is too good for the bees. I harvest about 20-40lbs of it per hive. I let my bees overwinter on summer honey, which, in our area, is usually light. Any harvested summer honey I sell or give as gifts. The dark fall honey is for family. Plus, because it does granulate readily (within a couple of months), they are more forgiving and understand what is going on. And, as far as the original question, I would still use sugar syrup for fall buildup. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:23:14 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: goldenrod honey for bee buildup Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thank you all for your informative responses. >>All that said...does goldenrod produce nectar in your area? Where it is on lime soil, goldenrod seems to always produce nectar. The more acid the soil, the less reliable is goldenrod production. This will be our first year on goldenrod and we are excited. With a fellow bee keeper, we have moved 5 hives out to a great looking goldenrod field 2 weeks ago. There are minimum 30 acres covered with at least several species of goldenrod. Some have been blooming since early August while others appear a couple of weeks away. If the bees have increased brood rearing since they were put out in the field and the peak bloom happens in 2 or 3 weeks, there should be a very strong forager force to harvest the nectar. Typically, Long Island winters frequently offer good cleansing temperatures and we hope the bees will overwinter well. We'll find out. Last Saturday morning there was a good bee traffic in front of the hives. Quite a few bees returning with several shades of orange pollen in their baskets while others were only covered in orange/yellow pollen. Checking the frames in the supers revealed a good rate of increase even though it had been dry for some 10 days. (Rain has returned last Friday and over the weekend.) Does goldenrod secrete nectar only during certain hours of the day? There was almost no bee traffic after 6 pm. We also saw a few predatory wasps/hornets/bees that occasionally would snatch and kill a honeybee. They were about 3 or 4 times the size of a honeybee with a yellow abdomem and a red-brown thorax/head. They appeared to perform mating dance in the air with the jaws interlocked. Quite attractive but it hurt to see honeybees being devoured. Can anyone guess what these predators are? Hopefully they are not great in numbers... I am not sure about the soil pH in that field, Lloyd. Will need to measure it next time I am out there. Regards, Waldemar LI, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 06:57:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Shane Woodruff Subject: Re: Honey cake reciepe In-Reply-To: <2b.5eb5b203.2e516887@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Product information Product name GermanSultaninenEnglishSultanasFrenchRaisins de Smyrne SpanishPasas gorronasScientificVitis viniferaCN/HS number *0806 20 12 (* EU Combined Nomenclature/Harmonized System) Product description Sultanas belong to the grapevine family (Vitaceae) and are native to the Caspian Sea. Currants, sultanas and raisins, including those still on the bunch, are known collectively as "raisins. The difference between these three dried fruits is explained below: Sultanas: seedless, large-berried and light yellow. Larger than currants and smaller than raisins.Currants: seedless, small-berried, purple/black color. Their name derives from the Greek city of Corinth.Raisins on the bunch: seeded, large-berried, generally with stalk. To produce: the grapes are grown on the sultana grapevine. The grapes are harvested when overripe. They are then either air-dried or increasingly dried in special drying plants. Most sultanas are bleached, sulfured after drying and mechanically destalked in order to extend their storage life and prevent subsequent discoloration. Such treatment must be indicated appropriately on the packaging. Treatment with vegetable oils is intended to prevent the sultanas from sticking together. Due to their very high sugar content, sultanas are very sweet and similar in flavor to honey. Quality / Duration of storage Sultanas should not exhibit any signs of reduced quality, such as mold, rot, discoloration, maggot or mite infestation, clumps of fruit. Contamination by dirt etc. must also remain within reasonable limits. Various sources state maximum duration of storage as follows: TemperatureRel. humidityMax. duration of storageSource4 - 20°C60 - 70%12 months[1]7°C50 - 60%12 months[5] Intended use Sultanas are intended to be eaten raw and are used as an ingredient in nut mixes, bakery products, muesli and desserts. Figures (Click on the individual Figures to enlarge them.) Figure 1 Figure 2 Countries of origin This Table shows only a selection of the most important countries of origin and should not be thought of as exhaustive. EuropeTurkey, Greece, Spain, CyprusAfricaSouth AfricaAsiaIran, AfghanistanAmericaUSA, MexicoAustraliaAustralia Back to beginning Packaging Raisins are packaged in paperboard cartons or wooden boxes. When packaged in corrugated or millboard cartons, the product should be transported on pallets. The packaging size should be so selected that the dimensions of the individual area modules or area module multiples are conformed to the conventional pallet sizes (800x1200 mm and 1000x1200 mm) and cargo units may thus be produced. Kathy E Cox wrote:In a message dated 8/15/2004 3:51:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: sultanas forgive my ignorance, but what is that? Kathy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:25:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionell Evans Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Science is not to be disputed? Honey bees are not an exact science. Man does not know that much about bees. Man does not know how to stop swarming, or how they make honey or why one egg will either make a queen or a worker. Why does the queen have to be raised with her head downward? I know royal jelly is all that is fed to a natural rearing of a queen if the bees do it all. But with grafting it may be different. An exact science will always be the same, day in and day out. Lionel -- 3Mbps Cable Modem provider (http://pclnet.net) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:28:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: challenging problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all: Here's a problem that we're trying to solve. We have a project in a SW state where the daily high is 112-117 degrees F. Gets down to a chilly 90 degrees at night. We've got bees trained to feeders. They fly well from dawn to about noon, 4 till dusk. During the heat of the day, flight shuts down -- 1) they've still got syrup and water available to them in feeders 2) bees aren't even gathering water However, the hives roar with the sound of fanning bees. Hives are under shades. It appears that its so hot that virtually every bee is pressed into service fanning. Seems like they gather enough water/syrup in morning to meet the evaporation needs, so even the water gatherers are staying in the hive. Now for the problem, either they are shut down because of the intense heat in the hive and need to cool it, or they, like people, don't work in 'black flag' conditions, or its a combination of the two. Tried cooling hives with dry ice, but it didn't get bees back out. Any tricks to get bees to fly under these severe conditions? Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:14:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Honey cake reciepe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have had two responses asking 'what are sultanas?'. Presumably these are known by another name in the US. I would describe them as being like pale brown seedless raisins, rather smaller than true raisins (although raisins do vary in size), but larger than currants. The flavour is less intense than that of raisins or currants. Presumably someone will now ask what currants are! The dictionaries give: sultana noun (sultanas) a pale seedless raisin that is used in making cakes, puddings, etc; A kind of seedless raisin produced near Smyrna in Asiatic Turkey. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:21:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: challenging problem In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20040816092817.01d785f0@150.131.14.2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:28 AM 8/16/2004, you wrote: >Hi all: > >Here's a problem that we're trying to solve. We have a project in a SW >state where the daily high is 112-117 degrees F. Gets down to a chilly 90 >degrees at night. > >Any tricks to get bees to fly under these severe conditions? I don't think so. Temperatures that high are pretty close to the lethal limit for adult bees. The lethal limit for the Japanese honeybee is around 118F, and I'd suspect it would be around the same for the European honeybee. Brood I believe is even more delicate. The inside temperature could get well above the outside temperature without the cooling effort. I've been told by a beekeeper in an area that gets hot like yours, that they don't open hives when the temperature gets near or above 100 because the bees will start to die when you interrupt their cooling. (Not to mention the effect of the heat on the beekeeper). I'd expect one of those expensive fan powered units may help with the cooling, but I still doubt they would fly much in those conditions. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:40:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: > When ya gotta go ya gotta go, meaning the bees or the honey? Or are you > speaking of going to the little boys room? Just Kidding!! Yes. > I will take that grew your own means past tense so you no longer breed your > own. So now you bring in someone else's bees in your location, not keeping a > local stock? Yes and no. Grew my own this year, but not last year. > I don't know but, there could have been other factors involved in you > success and there loses. Always true but I go with results, which was when I shifted I got more honey by a factor of 3-4+. That has been consistent over they years and those who harvest in September still average about 20lbs a colony. > Science is not to be disputed. Science always tests itself. So not true. I have heard of but not seen of studies that > say the opposite. I did read of one article, in the last year in ABJ, that > was recommending honey over sugar and hcfs. I guess it all depends on who > you listen to, and really though, how you manage the bees and the queens. Did not see the article, but the one that I saw that shows honey is better was for the long term use by bees, not just overwintering. I am really not trying to sell anything here. To each his own. There is one truth I have garnered from this list. Anecdotal evidence trumps science every time. Which is why we have lost so many researchers. Not worth their time trying to defend themselves when their evidence is based on research and the opposition is anecdotal. I used techniques recommended and used by experienced and knowledgeable Beekeepers and their advice worked. I also found that science backed up their advice. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:49:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: challenging problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It appears that its so hot that virtually every bee is pressed into > service fanning. Seems like they gather enough water/syrup in > morning to meet the evaporation needs, so even the water gatherers > are staying in the hive. How well do individual bees withstand hot the temperatures you mention? Seems to me that there must be a combination of temperature, solar radiation and humidity that defines an upper limit to proper functioning -- and survival -- of any invidual bee outside the hive. Also seems to me that bees must have some way to know when it is too hot to go out. Maybe the bees simply cannot leave the hive without undue risk. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:45:57 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: challenging problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On a trip last week to the Colorado River along the Western Grand Canyon, we travelled down Diamond Creek canyon, that led down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. It was just over 100 degrees. There were very few honey bees flying, mostly seeming to look for water along the upper stretched of the canyon we were travelling down. Later, farther south in Tucson where it was consistently above 100, we visted the Arizon-Sonora Desert Museum, where they have a netted hummingbird exhibit. There were about a hundred or so honeybees on the many humingbird feeders. The museum did not maintain a honey bee hive on the grounds there(they were trying to set up an orchard bee nesting site, with little success so far.), so they must have been from a feral colony nearby. One curator stated that if they found the hive they would probably have it destroyed because "here in Arizona they're all Africanized". :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:30:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-72E311A2; boundary="=======20134255=======" --=======20134255======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-72E311A2; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Mike could you possibly give us the layman's take on why >the bees you are familiar with can winter good on such honey where other >beekeepers colonies could not do it to the degree of wintering good? >Keith > > > I listened to George Imire and Tony Jadczak and they were right. (Plus, > > read a lot of science that confirmed their advice.) Bill First Bill, if Tony has given you a successful beekeeping plan, I would stick with it. He's one of my oldest friends, and a great beekeeper. Surely he knows how to keep bees in your part of Maine better than I do. Funny, I've been thinking over this question all day, driving around the western side of the Champlain Valley. Why can I winter my bees on Goldenrod, and others say they can't? Even though I raise my own queens, I haven't always. I don't think I am doing anything special. This morning, the yards smelled strongly of goldenrod. Although Goldenrod begins blooming in mid-July, the flow here doesn't start until closer to mid-August. It lasts about a month. When I smell that aroma of...dirty socks?...I know the flow is on. This looks like a good Goldenrod week coming up. Warm and humid, and the Goldenrod in full bloom. This is the beginning of the Goldenrod/Aster flow. Is that one flow? Today, while the Goldenrod is coming in, I saw no Aster bloom. There were a very few Small White Asters with a couple flowers open...a couple out of thousands. Surely no Aster flow. I think the Goldenrod/Aster flow is actually two flows, that overlap a bit. With all that said, perhaps it is the later Aster that is the problem. I could see a scenario where this might be possible. Suppose your bees don't build up in time for the main flow. For whatever reason. Maybe the queens weren't great, or you split them up for nucs at Dandelion bloom. Maybe the weather was terrible. Whatever, they don't get built up until later in the main flow. So, the supers weren't full at the usual harvest time in August, and they were left until mid-September, when they were removed...full. Well, the main flow ended before the bees could fill the supers. The remaining super space was filled in with Goldenrod. About the time the Goldenrod was shutting down, the supers were removed. The only thing remaining for the bees to work for winter stores is the Aster...which could bloom well for another month. The bees pack the broodnest with Aster, which granulates, and probably is poor winter feed. The pees winter badly, and it is blamed on Goldenrod, when actually it is Aster. Mike --=======20134255=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:55:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: challenging problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Jerry Bromenshenk" > Any tricks to get bees to fly under these severe conditions? In India (not quite those temperatures) I saw hives being cooled with wet sacking. The hives were in the beekeepers garden and were covered with sacking; the beekeeper just gave them a soaking with a hose pipe from time to time. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:18:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Bee Attack In-Reply-To: <6d.2eca096d.2e2f2c47@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" In last Friday's LOS ANGELES TIMES (Friday the 13th), the following note appeared: ********* 13 IN SANTA ANA STUNG AS 120,000 BEES ATTACK. -- It was pandemonium' after hives in a building's wall are disturbed -- More than 120.000 bees laid siege to a Santa Ana neighborhood Thursday afternoon, stinging residents, firefighters, and news reporters, authorities said. After living relatively quietly in a wall of a two-story apartment building in the 900 block of south Cypress Avenue for about two years, the bees poured into the neighborhood when boys threw rocks at the hives, fire officials said. Firefighters responded to calls from frantic neighbors shortly after 2 p.m. and cordoned off a four-block area. They then tried to keep the bees at bay with streams of water until a professional beekeeper arrived an hour later. "It was pandemonium," said Santa Ana fire Capt. Steve Horner. "Everywhere you looked, bees were attacking." A mother and daughter, who were both stung multiple times, were treated for allergic reactions to the stings and taken to a hospital. An unlucky jogger was caught wearing only shorts. Horner added. In all, 13 people were stung, including seven fire fighters and two reporters. The beekeeper disposed of most of the 120,000-plus bees by subduing them with a chemical spray, then vacuuming them up. About 500 pounds of honey was discovered in the apartment walls, Horner said. Fire officials said residents had used foam in [earlier attempts] to plug holes used by the bees to enter the wall, but had never reported the problem to authorities. ******** Africanized honey bees were first noticed in the Los Angeles Basin in about 1996, but remarkably few incidents have reached the press since then. The article provided no mention about whether the bees were tested for lineage. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************* * The most formidable weapon against errors of any kind * is reason. * Thomas Paine, 1794 ************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:32:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: challenging problem In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20040816092817.01d785f0@150.131.14.2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: Now for the problem, either they are shut down because of the intense heat in the hive and need to cool it, or they, like people, don't work in 'black flag' conditions, or its a combination of the two. Tried cooling hives with dry ice, but it didn't get bees back out. Any tricks to get bees to fly under these severe conditions? Reply: We are not having any problems with our bees flying and foraging, etc, but then we are on small cell 4.9mm top tolerance foundation and don't have the aerodynamic lift problems associated with high heat. Here in Arizona somewhere around 113 to 117F even planes are grounded, much less oversized honeybees. Suggest if you are not working with smaller foundation and you want them to fly in very hot weather for experimentation you give it a try to keep the bees flying. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:59:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: requeening problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, I've never had such poor luck re-queening as I have had this year. = Especially with one very stubborn hive. I moved the old queen out in = the spring to make a double queen hive (just for fun). I introduced the = bought queen like I always do the standard way..in the cage.. candy up = and all that. I checked 7 days later and saw eggs so I buttoned the = hive up and went on my way. There was a very good flow on so all seemed = well in the yard. Two weeks later the other hives where building up = very well but not this one. When I checked..no queen or eggs just a few = small patterns of brood. So I tried again. The frames were empty and = I moved a frame of brood over and put a different queen in. Same damn = thing. Checked 7 days later and saw eggs in one frame and put the hive = back together. After I pulled supers off and checked Sunday.. nothing. = That was darn near 20 days after introducing the queen. Honey flow has = been excellent. I have never seen anything like this. They don't even = make a queen cell..nothing. Just empty brood frames. Any = suggestions???? I put in a frame of eggs to see what happens. I have = never had a problem before. I thought about laying workers but there = are no eggs at all, on either occasion. The other hives are huge! They = are the Russian Bees from Ontario Canada. Kent Stienburg Eastern Ontario Canada :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:09:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Detchon Subject: Re: challenging problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry, A couple of thoughts come to mind regarding your observations on feeding bees in high heat conditions. >Now for the problem, either they are shut down because of the intense heat > in the hive and need to cool it, or they, like people, don't work in 'black > flag' conditions, or its a combination of the two. Another problem under these high heat conditions that can induce the bees to stop flying, is heat radiation from the ground. We find that when temps get over 40 celsius, and here 45+ is not uncommon, bees will not even fly to water sources close by, when they have to fly over light coloured ground such as white sand. Under these conditions it is not unusual to see intense flight activity early morning and late afternoon, with virtually no flight activity during the day. The hives do roar with fanning activity though even if they are in the shade, (which is essential). At these times the bees are more focussed on survival than gathering! Another question that comes to mind however, is what is in your feeders? Eric Mussens recent article about sub lethal effects of pesticides on honeybees, has alerted us here to the possibility that pesticide residue levels in the cane sugar syrup we feed during times of dearth, whilst well within (we hope!) the MRLs set for human consumption may well be too high for safely feeding to bees. Some of us here have observed unusual behavioural responses in our bees which could be explained by this scenario and which may well be a newly emerging hazard for beekeepers consequent upon changing pesticide use patterns by the growers.We will trial use of certified organic sugar to investigate this possibility, although it is difficult to source organic sugar that is as highly refined as the conventional product. Needless to say HFCS is not available here. Peter Detchon Western Australia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:33:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All > Every scientific article I have read has sugar and > hcfs as the best overwintering feed for the north since > both are very low in solids. The above statement is true, but only as far as it goes... It refers to wintering bees (US bees) that cannot cope with the honey produced from the nectars of the plants available in the cold region that the bee finds itself ensconced in. If you use bees that are native to a region, or at least well adapted to it, then there is no difference between survival rates of colonies that use honey or sucrose for winter stores. The real 'science' would have been to study all aspects of the problem, not just pick one aspect and test that... If you move polar bears to the jungle, they will not find many seals to eat :-) Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:44:20 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: styrofoam feeders > These feeders are one of the best pieces of beekeeping > equipment that has come along... I agree, except for the frustrating lack of any sort of handholds for lifting it off the hive, a design flaw that becomes apparent the first time one wishes to take a look at a hive provisioned with a feeder containing several gallons of syrup. Has anyone found a glue that might bond well enough to support at least half the weight of a full styro-hive-top-feeder? The vacu-formed plastic inserts fit into standard woodenware, so one is sure to have handholds, but these have a different major design flaw - massive bee space violations through which one could drive an inconveniently large 55-foot tractor trailer truck. An open invitation to bridge comb - a waste and a mess. Bee Commerce has introduced a "Hive Topper" feeder, and it not only lacks handholds, but presents an irregular bottom surface inviting bridge comb, and also features a retail price double that of the other two plastic feeder options. http://www.bee-commerce.com/detail.asp?product_id=206 It is really sad to see so much money invested in tooling for specific designs before those designs are field-tested, moreso when the design flaws should have been blindingly obvious at the preliminary sketch stage. jim (Yet another compilation CD for the car: music by the 1970s group "Bread", and the 1990s group "Pearl Jam". The label? "Pearl Jam and Bread") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:20:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: >>Every scientific article I have read has sugar and >>hcfs as the best overwintering feed for the north since >>both are very low in solids. > > The above statement is true, but only as far as it goes... > > It refers to wintering bees (US bees) that cannot cope with the > honey produced from the nectars of the plants available in the > cold region that the bee finds itself ensconced in. Actually, the study was a British one. Nothing to do with the US, just the relative influence of different winter feeds on honey bee longevity. Honey was the worst, sugar syrup the best. I repeat. Bees will overwinter on various nectar sources. They do "cope" with all the fall nectars. It is a matter of degree. Some are worse than others. (The British study even found that boiled sugar syrup was worse than dissolved sugar syrup.) Even adding Tartaric Acid, as suggested by the Hive and the Honey Bee (a great resource), was found by the study (and later studies) to be detrimental. But many beekeepers swear by it and say it does not effect their bees. If you lose 10-30% more bees in a colony over winter, I doubt if there is a beekeeper on this list that would notice the difference, since most do not look until the bees are flying and spring buildup is well underway. Plus, their comparison is with past years and if it is the same, then it was a good winter for their bees. Tartaric Acid has a 5-15% mortality rate compared to plain sugar. You would never see it with your bees. You could have a 50% greater mortality rate from winter feed, and if that is what you have every year, all is well. What is interesting are the studies that show honey production Vs hive population. There is a threshold where honey production increases dramatically. If the beekeeper can have healthy colonies come out of the winter that build up well, they will have large populations of bees available to take advantage of the flow. So if you can have 15% or 50% more bees available after the winter, you are that much more ahead to take advantage of the flows. In my case, it was probably about 80% more just because of our conditions and the effects of fall honey. This discussion happens every fall. As I said, I once listened to the local beekeepers and was happy with my 20+ pounds per colony and 20-50% winter colony loss, because that is what everyone got, so we had to be doing the right thing. BTW- zero losses last winter. Reports around the state were a poor honey flow. I had a fine harvest. I am not a good beekeeper. George Imire would tear me a new one over some of my practices and lack of inspection. But his over-all management of honey production and winter management are what makes the difference for me. Works for him in Maryland, well south of Maine. Listen to George. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:51:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Bee Attack MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Adrian: Here’s more on the story from CNN’s web site. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/08/16/bees.reut/index.html Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:49:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/08/04 18:27:29 GMT Daylight Time, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: <> Yes, but what strain of bee? We have loads of ill-adapted hybrids here; what I haven't seen (and if anyone's aware of such a thing, I'd be very grateful to see it) is a similar study done with well-adapted native bees. If such bees really have problems getting through a hard winter on feed with a high solid content, then I find it very hard to see how they could survive in the wild, either in heather districts, which tend to have hard winters, or on honeydew in some forested continental areas, which again tend to have hard winters. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:44:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings, After searching the archives in vain, perhaps looking with the wrong search words, I'm looking for an answer to following situation: A "sticky" board under a screen bottom board will render a certain number of phoretic varroa mites. This is my preferred method of monitoring mite loads as it is less invasive than the sugar or ether roll. Stronger colonies naturally yield more mites than smaller colonies. Can anyone tell me what percentage of the total mite population can be detected in a 24-hour natural mite drop? Is there a formula to suggest how many total mites each fallen mite represents? How many mites does it take to be considered the "economic threshhold" or is this purely relative to the size of the colony? By the way, I have some strong, productive colonies dropping 136 mites in a 24 hour period, and a number of colonies dropping anywhere from zero to three (and all in the same bee yard). Any thoughts from any of you? It would be appreciated. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:07:43 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator > A "sticky" board under a screen bottom board... > Stronger colonies naturally yield more mites than smaller colonies. > Can anyone tell me what percentage of the total mite population > can be detected in a 24-hour natural mite drop? While someone might claim to be able to estimate this, it really does not matter in my view. All that matters to me is the trend line ("the slope of the curve") from the last few 24-hour drop counts to the current. If it is "linear", one need not treat, but if it is going exponential, then one may need to remove the colony from production and treat. > Is there a formula to suggest how many total mites each fallen > mite represents? How many mites does it take to be considered > the "economic threshold" You answered both questions in your second line above. > or is this purely relative to the size of the colony? Exactly. Your biggest colonies will have the largest absolute numbers of mites, so arbitrary thresholds are counter-productive given that no two colonies will be the same size. > By the way, I have some strong, productive colonies dropping 136 > mites in a 24 hour period, and a number of colonies dropping > anywhere from zero to three (and all in the same bee yard). While 3 * 45 = 136, and it would be hard to imagine a colony with 45 times the bee population of another colony, drawing conclusions from a single reading in isolation, rather than a series of readings over time, is a dangerous game, as you don't know when each monitored colony last had no detectable mite drop. For example, a more populous colony would have a higher incidence of bees bumping into bees, crawling over each other, and doing other things that might be inflating the natural mite drop through knocking more mites off both bees and comb. jim (It is now legal to buy drugs abroad, but still illegal to buy a broad drugs.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:04:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. In-Reply-To: <87.13714e5a.2e53c964@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley wrote: > Yes, but what strain of bee? Please read my post. It is a matter of degree. This list is fun. Pardon me while I remove the arrows. Actually, I am only trying to help. Plus, I am acting as a conduit for info that was given to me by better beekeepers than me and scientific studies that back them up. And it works. As far as bees surviving quite well in the wild, true. But the key word is survive. If we operated on that principle (which has been championed on this list in the past- by those who not longer post) we would be out of beekeeping quite early. Or we would "survive" but not get the best out of our bees. That is especially true for northern beekeepers who are faced with harsh winters and short summers. We have to practice the most efficient beekeeping or we will be marginal or end up with a lot of empty equipment. You can get by the further south you go. But why not do better than just get by. That is George Imire's main point. The difference between having and keeping bees. I came into beekeeping just when Tracheal arrived and saw quite a few beekeepers drop out of keeping bees. Their practice was "set and forget" and tracheal did them in. When Varroa hit, we lost many more Beekeepers. I look at most of the current set of new Beekeepers as understanding that there is a lot more to keeping bees than just "set and forget". They actually want to read George's "Pink Pages" and become good beekeepers. Mainly because his advice works. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:01:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Goldenrod and colony development. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/08/04 13:35:25 GMT Daylight Time, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: <> Yes, but the beekeeper's bee has a number of advantagesover the feral one; autumn feeding, regular requeening (sometimes), etc. If they survive in what are basically fairly hostile climates there's not much wrong; my aim is to take those bees and (hopefully) enable them to do better. Actually the reason why I don't autumn feed under normal conditions is quite different; if bees are so ill-adapted they can't winter on what they gather for themselves, I don't want those genetics around. That may well not apply in regions where bees are not native, so please don't anyone feel I'm getting at them. << I came into beekeeping just when Tracheal arrived and saw quite a few beekeepers drop out of keeping bees. Their practice was "set and forget" and tracheal did them in. When Varroa hit, we lost many more Beekeepers.>> Maybe a 'set' practice isn't always a bad thing. I've been wondering for a long time why British bees developed resistance to TM successfully, while a lot of US bees haven't, and at last I think I've found something relevant. Beowulf Cooper (Honeybees of the British Isles, p. 89) says that while a 'voluntary expert' (unpaid bee inspector) in Lincolnshire, he found that, in single (National) broodboxes, the proportion of TM-infested stocks among those which died out over the winter was far higher (no figures given) than in those which wintered successfully. Colonies with larger broodboxes, however, did not show this. It seems that TM-infested colonies eat more during the winter, and in the small broodbox, these tended to starve, thus selecting against the mite. Please don't anyone think I'm sniping at them, but is it possible that big broodboxes and heavy autumn feeding are enabling susceptible stocks to survive, when you'd actually be better off without them or their drones perpetuating susceptibility? Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:58:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Fall Feeding Comments: cc: bogansrj@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Based on the discussions of winter stores, I have a very basic question that I am almost embarrassed to ask. If one takes to feeding bees sugar for their winter stores, how much do you feed? Although this seems simple, I think there is a lot more to it than one realizes. Obviously this is very much location dependent. In my area about 75 lbs. of honey are needed for winter food. This varies colony to colony and depends on variables as to where the honey is located, how cold the winter is, how often the cluster can break up during a warm spell, etc. I do not normally feed colonies for winter. Right or wrong I leave them with sufficient stores after the mid summer harvest and in most cases let them keep the fall flow for added insurance. Richard Taylor used and wrote many times about doing exactly that. Last year I and many other beekeepers in my region realized late in the fall that winter stores were rapidly being depleted. This was very weather dependent in that we had a somewhat warm fall and the honey flow stopped by mid July. There were many beekeepers (myself included) scrambling to get colonies fed. I missed a major clue to the problem that should have indicated trouble. During the harvest the robbing was unbelievable. You could only harvest from one or two colonies before you had to stop and then go to another yard and start all over. The harvest was one big "round robin" between yards. Unloading supers into the honey house was another task. Anyway back to the question. Assuming little or no stored honey how much sugar should be fed? In searching the archives there is a wide array of suggestions ranging from "as much as they will take" to one pound of sugar equals one pound of honey. If one uses the recommended 2:1 sugar to water ratio it tells me, for my area, I need approximately 5 gallons per colony, more if I don't get to the 2:1 ratio and I don't because of mixing issues. In my case, that is well over a ton of sugar and gallons and gallons of water. This may be ok for someone with five colonies in the back yard or the large operation that has syrup pumps and huge tanks. But for someone with 40 to 50 colonies scattered all around the county I cannot see how this is feasible. Last year I know I did not use anywhere close to that amount of sugar. Some colonies that were the most distance got about 10 lbs of fondant, rechecked in late winter and fed more if needed. (I have come to love fondant, for a number of applications.) I am very interested in the results of this question and also what methods are used for feeding. It would also be helpful if you mention how much labor you expend, or at least the number of colonies you feed, where you are located (how much feed for your area). Simply put: What and how much do you use and how do you prepare it and then how do you feed? This could probably generate a number of discussions. I think this is good information for everyone. One last request. Let's not turn this topic into a debate on feeding vs. not feeding, sugar vs. honey or sugar in the honey. I think those horses are already dead and we should not beat them any more. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA PS. For those of you that asked. The wedding was great and all went well. The bees did not even mind being camouflaged while the photos were being taken in the garden. + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:29:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Maurice Cobo Subject: Pierco cell size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Does any one know the exact cell size in the Pierco plastic frames? Please let me know, Thanks, Maurice Cobo _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:54:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: fall feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger Morse, at Cornell, did considerable work on winter stores. He finally declared that in the area of Ithaca NY (probably much like where Ron lives, although considerable north of there) bees needed 65 pounds of feed to overwinter plus get a good start of spring brood rearing. Based on my experience, in an area considerably colder, I agree. Making sugar syrup for more than 5 or so colonies is just impractical. Find a source of corn syrup! Your local Dadant dealer can recommend one. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:25:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Pierco cell size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain If I recall correctly, 5.1 mm. Regards, Waldemar LI, NY >>Does any one know the exact cell size in the Pierco plastic frames? Please let me know, Thanks, Maurice Cobo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:15:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Re: Bee Attack In-Reply-To: <200408171954.i7HJh8cG013614@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" This morning's (Wednesday) Los Angeles Times had more information about last weekend's bee attack in Orange County. Tests confirmed their Africanized bee status. Two tethered neighbor dogs died from more than 100 stings each. This was the first major attack in the County since the known arrival of Africanized bees in that area (1999). Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************* * The most formidable weapon against errors of any kind * is reason. * Thomas Paine, 1794 ************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:33:36 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Fall Feeding > Assuming little or no stored honey how much sugar > should be fed? > In searching the archives there is a wide array of > suggestions ranging from "as much as they will take" This is not a bad tactic, really. :) > to one pound of sugar equals one pound of honey. That one cannot be true in this universe. Entropy is a harsh taskmaster, and it never goes away. :) You can't get out all you put in, there must be losses. The crucial rule of thumb to remember is that to evaporate the water out and invert the sugar, bees use about 0.6 lb of sugar for every quart of water in the syrup one is feeding. This makes for some fancy math, because the more you feed, the more that the bees use to process the feed, and you need to feed yet a little more. There is an online tool that does this math made available at http://www.beekeeping.co.nz by our friend Nick Wallingford. Find the "Ready Reckoner" link, and click on it. It says: Syrup Syrup Fed Sugar Fed Sugar Stored Type (Quarts) (Pounds) (Pounds) ----- --------- --------- ------------ 1:2 200.19 166.67 75 1:1 83.80 106.40 75 jim (Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:33:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Fall Feeding In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-45821536; boundary="=======7B5743AE=======" --=======7B5743AE======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-45821536; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Simply put: What >and how much do you use and how do you prepare it and then how do you >feed? >Ron Bogansky I feed High Fructose Corn Syrup, from AE Staley Co. in Decatur, Illinois. It comes pre-mixed, and 11.55 lbs/gal...almost the weight of honey. You say the bees need 75 pounds of stores to winter. A two story colony with bees...without cover...weighs 70 pounds. If you winter in three stories, add 10 pounds for the super, etc. Add your 75 pounds to the weight of your hive. This will give you a target weight of 150 - 160 pounds. Feed enough HFCS to bring the weight of each of your hives to that weight. I count each gallon fed as 10 pounds. I weigh and feed in early October. At that time, the last brood is hatching...usually...and the syrup is packed into the upper broodnest. The bees don't have to remove extra moisture from the HFCS syrup, so early feeding isn't necessary. Just get it done before it gets cold. The first half of October would be good in PA. Right or wrong I leave them with sufficient stores after the mid summer harvest and in most cases let them keep the fall flow for added insurance. Ron I'm definitely not feed 'em 'till they won't take any more beekeeper. Leaving them with way more honey than they need is wasteful. Do you have a lot of crystallized honey in the top of the broodnest in the spring? If so, you are leaving too much honey on the hives because you think it a good insurance policy. Take that nice summer honey, and let them have the fall flow. If they don't store enough at that time, then weigh and feed what they need. Mike --=======7B5743AE=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:46:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Subject: Re: Oxalic I have been noticing several DWV affected bees outside of my garden hives. Definitely HIGH mite levels. I cannot use Apistan, much less check-mite due to organic restrictions on the farm. ( I would not anyway). Dennis VonEnglethorp at EAS mentioned that bees with DWV at this stage of teh season are doomed. Can I treat with Formic? Or can I do Oxalic at five day intervals? Also, what volume (in tsp or Tbsp) does 2 grammes of Oxalic correspond to? Thanks. We are leaving for holiday on teh 28th, so I have to get on this. I have ten other hives at another location on the property, and will pull the remaining honey this week. Most are RR supers at this point. JK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:10:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Bee Attack MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Adrian & All, > bee attack in Orange County. > Tests confirmed their Africanized bee status. > Did the information include what means or how the colony was tested. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:04:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Suzanne Geisler Subject: can the girls find their way home? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I keep my two hives about 4 miles from my home. My husband and I pulled = our honey tonight and brought the supers home. Will the lost girls who = ended up at our house find their way home? Suzanne Geisler winner of the Warren County (Ohio) Fair's Best In Show Bee Product! (cut = comb)...big ribbon! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:35:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator **The most commonly used # is x30, so in your case it is 136*30 =~4000 mites. This can be way off depending on the amount of brood in the colony and whether the colony is hygienic or not. The commonly quoted # is about 3000-4000 mites for economic threshould (worked out by Keith Delaplane in the Georgia/TN/SC area. so in your case, you should treat. Zach Huang www.msu.edu/~bees :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:47:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Bee Attack On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:18:54 -0700, adrian m. wenner < wenner@LIFESCI.UCSB.EDU> wrote: > About 500 pounds of honey was discovered in the apartment walls, >Horner said. A record yield for an African bee colony? That is pretty impressive, 500 lbs from one colony. Zachary Huang :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:43:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: challenging problem On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:21:18 -0400, Tim Arheit wrote: > >I don't think so. Temperatures that high are pretty close to the lethal >limit for adult bees. The lethal limit for the Japanese honeybee is around >118F, and I'd suspect it would be around the same for the European >honeybee. Brood I believe is even more delicate. The inside temperature >could get well above the outside temperature without the cooling effort. Newest data from our lab indicate the lethal temp /time combinations for adult bees are 52 C for 9 min, 49 for 15 min and 47 for 25 min. Strangely I did not see any data on this for either bees, nor mites (even though many people in Germany use a certain temp to cook brood to kill mites, no data was given for a safety window for bees). we have not done brood yet. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:21:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Bee Attack MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Zachary & All, > > About 500 pounds of honey was discovered in the apartment walls, > >Horner said. > > A record yield for an African bee colony? That is pretty impressive, 500 lbs from one > colony. > Which is why I questioned the testing method of determining the lineage of the colony. Plus it was a large population which is also not normal for honey bees with a lineage of African decent in the Americas. Before we believe this colony is truly African we must find out the testing method for determining its lineage. Some testing methods only look at worker comb dimensions when only the truth can be determined through DNA testing. Using worker comb dimensions it would be determined that I have all African bees in my yards but this is far from the case, I have Russian bees on small worker combs. This could have been a come back feral colony that was riled up by these kids throwing rocks at it. For Christ sake even I would get riled up if I was being pestered by stones. If it were a feral colony of European decent that normally would have been well tempered, under conditions where they were not pestered, then we have wasted genetics that the whole industry is working to create by killing this colony. I think that the honey bee, even African bees, are being horribly mistreated and molested by well meaning officials and beekeepers just because the situation is being misunderstood and not studied with bias. In my opinion, Beekeepers need to wake up and start protecting our honey bees from bad science. Good or better science needs to be employed in this matter. There are isolated areas, and even some regions, that are experiencing a comeback with feral honey bees and these bees are not working on the same cell sizes as most beekeepers are using in the practice of keeping their bees. I know many here may doubt me but some beekeepers are finding these feral colonies and working with them with out the aid of treatments of foreign substances. I am sure glad these feral colonies are being found outside of the African zones or they would probably be identified as African and be exterminated even though there not. The scientific community should begin to study these feral colonies in their natural habitat to try and understand why they are surviving so those who put all credence on scientific research can begin to keep bees that don't die with out them. Nature is working the problems out, so can we. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:39:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Pierco cell size In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Maurice I have measured several samples of Pierco one-piece frames and there are two possibilities as examples exist in both 5.20 mm and 5.25 mm depending on which die was used for production. I cannot find any numbers on the finished frames that refer to the die, so you will need to measure 20 cells to establish which size you have. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:13:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Bee Attack "A record yield for an African bee colony? That is pretty impressive, 500 lbs from one colony." In South Africa occasionally you'd find huge amounts of honey in ferral hives, as they store it up over a period of years. It would be easier in that area of California where nectar is available all year. I just wonder how many swarms and micro swarms that hive sent out. I wonder also if there were several hives next to each other, or whether the number of bees was exaggerated. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:28:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Oxalic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > This message was originally submitted by > hayesg@DOACS.STATE.FL.US to the BEE-L > list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited > to remove quotes of previously posted material > > ----------------- Original message (ID=091B6193) (58 lines) > ------------------- > Subject: RE: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:41:49 -0400 > Message-ID: > <08A9A34A42FD0E4E87A1BE23C10A0ABA08C0860C@tlhexchange1.doacs.s > tate.fl.us> > Thread-Topic: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic > thread-index: AcSFkbFDT2Dz5DtdQneMFeP+C+9MjgAR1SpQ > From: "Hayes, Jerry" > To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee > Biology" > > Use Sucrocide Jonathan if your organic status needs to be maintained. > Jerry Hayes > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Kriebel [mailto:Jbkriebel@SPEAKEASY.NET] > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 8:47 PM > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic > > I have been noticing several DWV affected bees outside of my garden > hives. > Definitely HIGH mite levels. I cannot use Apistan, much less > check-mite > due to organic restrictions on the farm. ( I would not anyway). > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:31:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bee Attack MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by hayesg@DOACS.STATE.FL.US to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=894F1F05) (61 lines) ------------------- Subject: RE: Re: [BEE-L] Bee Attack Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:40:27 -0400 Message-ID: <08A9A34A42FD0E4E87A1BE23C10A0ABA08C0860B@tlhexchange1.doacs.state.fl.us> Thread-Topic: Re: [BEE-L] Bee Attack thread-index: AcSFg1q6BAJNCpgkSOC9QRMQbxnBfAAVYR+g From: "Hayes, Jerry" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Adrian, what tests confirmed the AHB status? Jerry Hayes :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:12:37 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Pierco cell size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Just wanted to add that the Pierco medium frames have larger, drone-sized, cells. This put an end to my thinking about using 3 mediums for the broodnest ... Waldemar LI, NY Hi Maurice I have measured several samples of Pierco one-piece frames and there are two possibilities as examples exist in both 5.20 mm and 5.25 mm depending on which die was used for production. I cannot find any numbers on the finished frames that refer to the die, so you will need to measure 20 cells to establish which size you have. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:20:32 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: HFCS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are there any sources of HFCS close to SE PA where we are? The stuff is none too cheap to ship. I was planning to use my double boiler (also = has mixing paddles) to make up syrup. I can make over 400# at a time this = way, and it saves me from washing the left-over honey down the drain = (probably less than a pound). =20 Before it comes up, no disease in my yard, and no honey in the tank from other sources. I am very strict about outside equipment. I burned over = ten supers and three hundred frames from another beekeeper that I bought = out. Sure, I needed the stuff, but refuse to believe "no disease in his = yard." Especially when he tried to give me some packages of terramyacin. Sure, maybe he did not see any AFB, but the mere presence of the stuff means = it was probably in there. No prophylactic treatments here either. Thanks again...JK =20 Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen =D5hr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:56:52 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Fall Feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mike, Can you provide a phone number or website address for AE Stanley Co? I just did a google search and only came up with a newsline that they have agreed to $100 million settlement in a price-fixing law suite... I'd like to compare the cost of feeding the hives sugar vs. HFCS. It might be even worthwhile to place an order with several local beekeepers. Thank you. Waldemar ========================= I feed High Fructose Corn Syrup, from AE Staley Co. in Decatur, Illinois. It comes pre-mixed, and 11.55 lbs/gal...almost the weight of honey. You say the bees need 75 pounds of stores to winter. A two story colony with bees...without cover...weighs 70 pounds. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:36:08 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Attack Even though the bees at issue were AHB, the term "Attack" is a very inappropriate one to use in regard to bees, moreso for beekeepers and entomologists. It's depressing to live in a time when people have access to so much information for free, but remain fundamentally ignorant of how even the simplest things work. Moreso when they accept unquestioningly the evaluations of others similarly mystified by basic science as long as the uninformed "authority" comes packaged as a authoritative analyst and announcer of truths, like the news/info-tainment media. The archives of this mailing list are an example of a symbolic expert/analyst and announcer of truths as they apply to bees and beekeeping. It even presumes to use the term "informed" to describe itself. So, let's give the bees some credit and dispel the myths, shall we? "...the children pelted their 500 pound (227 kg) hive with rocks..." It should be obvious that the colony lived there without bothering anyone long enough to build a seriously large hive, one of unusual size for AHB to build, and only DEFENDED their hive when kids started lobbing actual projectiles at the hive. ...and ok, so, their method of "defense", once provoked, involves stinging any moving target within some number of hundred yards. This is "overkill", but is still much more rational than attacking preemptively or unprovoked, a practice unique to humans and some apes. We should not be so judgmental about the AHB colony, as we humans are clearly no better. Let he who is without sin throw the first stone, but only if wearing a very good bee suit, gloves, and veil! jim (Is "colon" the plural of "semi-colon"?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:43:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: challenging problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Newest data from our lab indicate the lethal temp /time combinations > for adult bees are 52 C for 9 min, 49 for 15 min and 47 for 25 min. That is: 125.6 F, 120.2, and 116.6 degrees F. respectively. (Thanks to http://www.convertit.com/) allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:01:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Pierco cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> Does any one know the exact cell size in the Pierco plastic frames? Any standard frames I have measured are 5.25mm. (which I very much like. See The Cell Size Controversy at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/menus/topics.htm) Any mediums I measured were 5.35 (which is the most popular US size in recent years.) allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:53:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: challenging problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote previously: > Seems to me that there must be a combination of temperature, solar > radiation and humidity that defines an upper limit to proper > funcioning -- and survival -- of any invidual bee outside the hive. > Also seems to me that bees must have some way to know when it is too > hot to go out. Maybe the bees simply cannot leave the hive without > undue risk. Zach wrote: > Newest data from our lab indicate the lethal temp /time combinations > for adult bees are 52 C for 9 min, 49 for 15 min and 47 for 25 min. I know that presence of sunshine, shade, or breeze can greatly affect how humans experience any particular air temperature. Muscular activity of the subject can increase the amount of heat experienced. This can be beneficial in cold conditions, or lethal in the heat. Any details on the conditions under which the experiments were run? Any mention of humidity, presence or absence of solar radiation, etc.? Any mention of whether the bees were stationary, or active? I imagine that these factors could greatly affect survival. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:04:31 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator Not to criticize Zach, but I disagree, as would every legitimate IPM education and extension professional one could find. > The most commonly used ...and therefore, the most commonly in error... > # is x30, so in your case it is 136*30 =~4000 mites. More accurately, it might be something like that under certain highly specific conditions that any randomly-selected colony is much more likely to NOT experience than experience. > This can be way off depending on the amount of brood > in the colony and whether the colony is hygienic or not. And can also be way off depending upon a host of other factors, which, if listed in full, would likely crash the reader's e-mail client due to the sheer length of the list. > The commonly quoted ...and therefore, commonly wrong... > # is about 3000-4000 mites for economic threshould (worked > out by Keith Delaplane in the Georgia/TN/SC area. Hard to ignore, but worth the effort. Its not even a threshold. Perhaps this sort of estimate has value at U Georgia, but off campus, in the cold, cruel real world, where Mean is normal, and the Deviation is standard, we are forced to realize, if not openly admit that an "economic threshold" has to be more than a single simple pest count standing in isolation. It has to be a number that has some point of reference in terms of either: a) the hosts for the pests b) a prior measurement of pest population ...so that one can speak of "pests per acre", or "pests per plant", or pest/bee ratio, or "pest population trends". With colonies of bees, one has a difficult time doing more than estimating bee populations (to learn the knack, see http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/beesest.html , but be aware that the frames shown in Dave's illustrations are British "BS National" sized). If one wishes to avoid the extra work of estimating bee populations, then to track mite populations, one must track mite populations over time, with a series of measurements using a repeatable method, such as a 24-hour natural drop under weather conditions that are "nominal" (no rain, decent flying weather...) The key point about "IPM" is that one must know pest population in terms of how much damage the pests will do. The dead-giveaway with varroa is that their population growth starts to "go exponential" or "spike", and the resulting increased population of mites is what "overpowers" a colony. A decent overview of the whole "Economic Threshold" issue is here: http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent425/tutorial/economics.html Note the use of the term "pest density" in the last paragraph on the page. Density is inherently a ratio. A ratio is something COMPARED to something. Single numbers in isolation are useless, misleading, and lack any sense of perspective. > So in your case, you should treat. But the rationale given is not a basis for making a treatment decision. What might be a valid basis for a treatment decision is the much lower mite drops from colonies in the same yard, but only because the colony in question has a mite drop 45 times the other colonies. jim (I Fought the Lawn and the Lawn Won) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:05:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Bee Attack Comments: cc: ecmussen@green.ucdavis.edu, barry@birkey.com, phwells@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Earlier I posted two announcements about an Africanized bee attack in Orange County that occurred this past weekend. Keith Malone asked: "Did the information include what means or how the colony was tested [for AHB]?" Zachary Huang then wondered: "A record yield for an African bee colony? That is pretty impressive, 500 lbs from one colony." Keith countered: "Which is why I questioned the testing method of determining the lineage of the colony." Tim Vaughan joined in: "In South Africa occasionally you'd find huge amounts of honey in feral hives, as they store it up over a period of years. It would be easier in that area of California where nectar is available all year. I just wonder how many swarms and micro swarms that hive sent out. I wonder also if there were several hives next to each other, or whether the number of bees was exaggerated." Aaron Morris passed on a question from Jerry Hayes: "What tests confirmed the AHB status?" I hope everyone realizes that newspaper accounts give little or no technical information about such events, so I can only surmise what might have taken place -- with a copy to Eric Mussen, State Apiculturist, who might have some input. When any severe stinging incident occurs in the state, bee samples are normally provided to the County Agriculture Commissioner's office, where they are then forward to the state testing laboratory. I do not know what tests they run but am fairly confident such tests include DNA analysis. Tim Vaughan's point about the possibility of multiple colonies in the apartment building strikes me as being right on point. The newspaper account did not reveal any information about how the bee colonies were extracted from the building, but I much earlier had reported in the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL the fact that we estimated eight feral colonies living in a two-story house here in Santa Barbara. You can find that account at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjsep1999.htm As it turned out, 14 colonies actually existed in the walls of that house and had survived the varroa mite invasion in our area. I hope the above account proves useful (though not necessarily satisfying). (As an aside, Tom Seeley just published an article in the July issue of BEE CULTURE that covers the same subject that I had published back in 1999.) Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************* * The most formidable weapon against errors of any kind * is reason. * Thomas Paine, 1794 ************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:32:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: challenging problem In-Reply-To: <002301c48615$78869e60$46f69e45@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Allen Dick writes: Lethal temp of 47 for 25 min. That is: 116.6 degrees F. respectively. Reply: Why isn't this temp enough time to get to the source and get either feed or water and return home? Respectfully submitted: Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:15:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Bee Attack "I do not know what tests they run but am fairly confident such tests include DNA analysis." The last one I sent in they said they used a mitochondrial DNA test. That could prove problematic if a European queen mated with one or more AFB drones, as the hive could conceivably be totally Africanized and show up negative with that sort of test. But of course if that test showed positive, it would probably be doubly positive, in the sense that the drones who mated with her would likely be AHB also. As far as the number of swarms that were likely sent out by that hive or groups of hives, when I was in S. Africa, the local vineyard workers knew that I was interested in swarms. Even though there weren't many hives in our area (4 inches rain every year, practically no beekeepers) there were plenty of small swarms. The few hives that were there regularly sent out small swarms more or less the size of a tennis ball. The locals would find them while working the grapes, and report them to me for a reward of a few Rands or some frozen chicken. I would guess that's one of the ways they fill up an area so quickly. Perhaps not a giant swarm every year like Italians etc.., but a dozen or even more micro swarms in a very hospitable environment with suddenly little competition from EHBs. I've never been good at math, so am not sure whether terms like geometric, exponential or whatever apply, but if that hive/hives was there for a few years, the whole area is likely Africanized. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:57:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Bee Attack Comments: To: wenner@LIFESCI.UCSB.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Adrian, Thanks for your response. I can see by your post we are still not sure what the testing method for these bees were. Perhaps Jerry's letter of request will find the answer. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:24:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Shane Woodruff Subject: Bee attacks & Africanized bees. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii One thought I have been having about the very uncharacteristically large size of the reported Africanized beehive is the possiblity it was originally a hive of european honeybees that may have died out and bee taken over by an africanized swarm. Just something to consider. Shane in NJ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 04:11:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: hfcs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > and it saves me from washing the left-over honey down the drain > > What a waste. Think mead. > > Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:20:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "James Fischer" > The key point about "IPM" is that one must know pest population > in terms of how much damage the pests will do. The dead-giveaway > with varroa is that their population growth starts to "go exponential" > or "spike", and the resulting increased population of mites is what > "overpowers" a colony." Is this strictly true as written? European researchers seem to say it is not generally the mites that cause colony collapse (bees are weakened but not killed ) but the associated increase in viruses. These do maim or debilitate individual bees and as the PROPORTION of affected bees increases colony life becomes unviable - there are too many under-performers to be carried by the healthy bees. The proportion of affected bees increase as the mite population increase BUT ALSO as the bee population decreases in autumn. So a colony may can carry say 2000 mites amongst say 60000 bees in summer (very broardly 3% infestation), and still survive when the mites have increased to 10,000 (15% infestation) , but is likely to collapse when the bees have declined naturally to 15,000 in autumn ( raising the infestaion level to broardly 60%). [All numbers only illustrative]. It has been posted that mite populations are larger in large colonies. Is that true? 2,000 summer mites have ample breeding opportunity in even a small colony, so competition for breeding sites/brood cells will not create a check until the proportion of mites to brood has reached very high levels. The queen in a small colony can still be laying say 1,500 eggs a day - and a mite population of 2,000 needs at most say 2000/21=95 brood cells being sealed per day - brood production in a larger colony may be a bit higher but that would not confer any benefit to the mites. The concepts of economic threshold and economic injury level are interesting but are these the most helpful for beekeepers? Economic Injury level suggests we wait until the reduction in injury exceeds the cost of treatment - but that could apply when injury has reached a high absolute level - so it is good in a business sense but overall production could be lowered. Do we not need to consider the ' most cost-effective intervention'. This was expressed as 'a stitch in time saves nine', in the old days. The principle of IPM as I understand it is to steadily weaken the mite population so that it is never brought to very low levels but also never grows to crisis point. So, drone culling in spring, perhaps formic acid or a thymol treatment in late summer and oxalic acid in late autumn. To do any of this we have to monitor the fall of mites say 3 times a year - in each colony. Mesh floors/sticky boards are simple to use - but involve 2 visits close together. That is generally ok for hobbyists but may be impractical I realise for large operators with large numbers of hives in distant locations. They presumably have to use immediate sampling of just a few hives, say ether roll, and accept the lower accuracy with regard to the apiary as a whole. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:51:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: challenging problem In-Reply-To: <20040819213217.22605.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Allen Dick writes: > > Lethal temp of 47 for 25 > min. > > That is: 116.6 degrees F. respectively. > > > Reply: > Why isn't this temp enough time to get to the source and > get either feed or water and return home? There are really too many variables involved to have an absolute temp for lethal effects on bees outside the lab. In the lab you can bake them in controlled conditions and get excellent data. In the "wild" you have wind, humidity, sun, clouds, bee exertion, etc.. So you can have an outside temp of 116.6F and bees surviving or succumbing, depending on the actual heat load. But that temp does give you a frame of reference. Which I think was the root of the original question. I lose track on these threads after a while. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:42:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: challenging problem >Any details on the conditions under which the experiments were run? Any >mention of humidity, presence or absence of solar radiation, etc.? Any >mention of whether the bees were stationary, or active? I imagine that >these factors could greatly affect survival. the experiments were conducted in the lab so no sunshine, humidity was about 30% (I would have to check records, here is a guess). To Dee, bees have no food and water during the test but were provided with them prior and after and mortality checked 24 hrs later, in case some bees die much later than heat exposure (which they did). Zachary Huang MSU :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:57:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator In-Reply-To: <009e01c486a7$c2c09d40$708abc3e@DellDesk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin Dartington wrote: > From: "James Fischer" > The key point about "IPM" is that one must know pest > population > >>in terms of how much damage the pests will do. The dead-giveaway >>with varroa is that their population growth starts to "go exponential" >>or "spike", and the resulting increased population of mites is what >>"overpowers" a colony." > > > Is this strictly true as written? Yes. Since the virus and Varroa are linked, an increase in Varroa "overpowers" the colony. Varroa is the problem. Otherwise we would monitor for the virus. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:31:21 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Not to criticize Zach, but I disagree, as would > > every legitimate IPM education and extension > > professional one could find. > > I appreciated Zach's post because he took the risk > to > propose clear and easy to use criteria as a first > raw > evaluation of the situation in spite of the numerous > factors and considerations on varroas population > estimation, in spite of the risk to be submitted to > endless (but not useless) discussions about those > factors effects. > > Yes people have to be aware of those multiple > factors, warnings about methods and numbers proposed > that are not absolute truths. But in the end, one > has > to take a decision on the best of its knowledge. If > everyone is afraid to advance clear numbers and > simple > methods, we will no longer be able to compare > numbers > and methods from different sources, no longer be > able > to "qualitatively" and "quantitatively" evaluate the > situation and finally no longer be able to take > decision... so no more IPM. Just my feelings on this > thread. > > In conclusion, good to be aware of all influent > factors exposed by Jim, but raw numbers proposed by > Zach are an acceptable first estimation in most > cases, > IMHO. > > If I can had a point from a northern hobbyist > beekeeper about the economic theshold: the limit by > iself is not as important as when the varroa > population (or infestation rate, or whatever > parameter > you chose) will be over the limit. As I understand > it, > the game is not to treat when a certain number is > achieved but to treat the appropriate way, depending > on the time of the year (because of brood or not, > honey supers or not, etc.) to maintain the varroa > population so that you can have a good winter > preparation. Thus the question "what is the varrao > population in my hive ?" is just the first step to > respond the the question "With such a population > now, > what will be the varroa population in September ?". > I > think, in a way, this is also the approach by the > British varroa calculator > > Hervé > > > > > > > Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? > Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! > Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur > http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ > > Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez > toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément > avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur > http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com > Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:41:35 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator In-Reply-To: <008801c486a5$60ddc910$708abc3e@DellDesk> >> The key point about "IPM" is that one >> must know pest population in terms of >> how much damage the pests will do. >> The dead-giveaway with varroa is that >> their population growth starts to "go >> exponential" or "spike", and the resulting >> increased population of mites is what >> "overpowers" a colony." > Is this strictly true as written? Yep. The "slope of the curve" is the only practical way to accurately monitoring mite populations, assuming that one would rather use a sticky board alone than both count both mites and estimate bee population for each hive monitored. I'd submit that trying to estimate bee population is counter- productive to the process, and one is better served to spend the time counting mites more often and with more care, ignoring the bee population entirely. Anyone who expresses a threshold as an arbitrary integer is talking down their nose to you, and thinks that you are too stupid to comprehend, or too lazy to make multiple measurements over time. The dead giveaway is when all the handwaving starts about "strong" versus "weak" colonies, rendering the integer not only useless, but misleading, and thereby, counterproductive. > European researchers seem to say it is not generally the > mites that cause colony collapse (bees are weakened but not killed ) > but the associated increase in viruses. This is true. Mark Feldlaufer of the USDA Beltsville Bee Lab recently hired on Judy Chen, an card-carrying microbiologist, who promptly sat down at the keyboard of a PCR machine, and started looking for viruses in individual mites on individual bees, and gathered data that shows a direct correlation between the number of mites on a bee larvae and the incidence of virus transmission between all the mites. The poor little mites are infected THROUGH the bee. The paper is still "in the mill", but has the title: "Molecular evidence for transmission of Kashmir bee virus in honey bee colonies by ectoparasitic mite, Varroa destructor." It will be in "Apidologie". No idea when. Its "in press". The authors are Chen, Pettis, Evans, Kramer, Feldlaufer. The interesting thing was that by the time one had 4 mites crawling into a brood cell, the game was over, in that there was a 100% chance of all 4 mites (and the bee larvae) exiting the cell with viruses, with the mites presumably going on to spread the virus(es) to more mites via bees, and so on. Very impressive, to be able to detect viruses in a single mite at a time. (Mark brought a nice set of slides on this at the last MD/VA joint meeting of the beekeepers.) > It has been posted that mite populations are larger in large > colonies. Is that true? It cannot be true in ALL cases, as it is certainly possible to have a large colony with no mites at all. It is correct to say that a larger colony can "carry" a larger number of mites as an insignificant fraction of what would prompt treatment, and that this same exact number of mites might prompt treatment in a smaller colony. > The concepts of economic threshold and economic injury level > are interesting but are these the most helpful for beekeepers? > Economic Injury level suggests we wait until the reduction in > injury exceeds the cost of treatment - but that could apply > when injury has reached a high absolute level... One must still factor in the reproductive ability of the current population and the future impact thereof. Its not like one is expected to wear blinders to the future. > Do we not need to consider the 'most cost-effective intervention'. The big decision is pulling colonies out of production to treat them (or using Sucrose Octanate, if one has a free afternoon to treat a mere dozen colonies). In some cases, a true hardnosed "Cost effective" strategy may be deciding that the colony is doomed, yet leaving it in production, based upon the premise that the honey harvested will more than pay for a new queen to head up a split made from a healthy colony. The problem is that letting the colony collapse isn't really "keeping" the bees, is it? jim (The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who lack it.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:07:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator In-Reply-To: <20040820133122.619.qmail@web20823.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hervé Logé wrote: >>>Not to criticize Zach, but I disagree, as would >>>every legitimate IPM education and extension >>>professional one could find. >> >>I appreciated Zach's post because he took the risk >>to >>propose clear and easy to use criteria as a first >>raw >>evaluation of the situation in spite of the numerous >>factors and considerations on varroas population >>estimation, in spite of the risk to be submitted to >>endless (but not useless) discussions about those >>factors effects. A "first raw evaluation" is not IPM. IPM is a long term pest management strategy that has many, not just one, data points. It requires a process of monitoring the pest so when the "economic threshold" is reached, treatment can begin. It is designed to stop the broad-based application of pesticide as well as be economical for the farmer/beekeeper. It also can be used to time the pesticide application to match the pests development cycle better, based on things like degree days. It does involve more labor, since you are checking more often and keeping more records. Even the mite drop method recognizes that the economic threshold is different depending on season, location and even the beekeeper! The mite drop will tell you that you have mites and how many on the sticky board. How many per bee is a function of many variables and means popping the lid of the colony and observing. A specific mite drop with a small colony is quite different than the same mite drop on a large colony. Over time, which is its key, the mite drop method will show trends. Which is also a part of IPM. If you only have one mite reading, you should not use mite drop but a more direct and quantifiable measure, such as an ether roll. Then you have a fairly good count of the number of bees and the number of mites. It actually takes less time than the mite drop method, since there is only one trip to the colony. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:32:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Can anyone tell me what percentage of the total mite population can > be detected in a 24-hour natural mite drop? Is there a formula to > suggest how many total mites each fallen mite represents? Natural drop has been my chosen method of monitoring for some years now, and my experiences can be found in the selected topics section of my diary (http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/menus/topics.htm). A Google search from the bottom of that page using the words 'natural' and 'drop' yields a few hits. Somehow, I had thought that I had documented my experience and thinking better, maybe I have -- somewhere (here?) --but there there is some practical info (illustrated) there. Also on that page there is a listing of varroa resources that might turn up something you have not seen. There are problems with any measurement method, and the natural drop is dependant on assumptions. One is the lifespan of the varroa in the hive at the point in time that the measurement is taken. Season, phoresy, varroa levels in the hive, hive populations, brood area, history of the hive and more will have an influence on this number. Moreover, bees have been observed to stage episodes of mite detection and ejection (Thanks, Dee), that might just happen to coincide with the days of your measurement and give inflated results. For those reasons, ND is just a rough guide, but a good and easy one. If ND turns up unexpected results, then the beekeeper needs to drill down further by consulting previous data, doing brood inspections, acohol washes, asking neighbours what they are seeing, etc. etc. -- or just treat ...whatever seems to be appropriate to the size of operation, resources, and the timeframe available before remedial measures are not possible. We use 100 days as varroa lifespan, and hence a multiplier. Others use 30. No matter. What you get is merely a number, and your decision will depend on what you turn up in additional investigation, your location, your appetite for risk, your opinion of chemicals, and the weather. As GEORGE says, I hope I have helped. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; In practice, there is. -- Chuck Reid :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:13:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Varroa is the problem. Otherwise we would monitor for the virus. > > Bill Truesdell > Bath, Maine Well as an interested beekeeper rather than a bee scientist, just how do I monitor for viruses. I do know how to monitor for varroa. Ruary :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:24:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bill Truesdell" wrote: > Since the virus and Varroa are linked, an increase in Varroa > "overpowers" the colony. > > Varroa is the problem. Otherwise we would monitor for the virus. Are you assuming that viruses, particularly DWV or APV, are always present if varroa are present? My understanding is that many colonies survive high levels of varroa simply because these viruses are not present. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:49:43 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator In-Reply-To: <412613BA.2000909@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bill Truesdell a écrit : > A "first raw evaluation" is not IPM. Have I written it is ? I try my best to understand. But I do not see the contradiction between terms. My understanding is that IPM is made of multiple evaluations (and other things). So I agree with you and Jim about monitoring all the season along and having excel curves...but when you have just one point you may want to know if you are 2 weeks from the crash or 2 months. I think it was more or less the original question, wasn't it ? > If you only have one mite reading, you should not > use mite drop but a > more direct and quantifiable measure, such as an > ether roll. I understand your point. But it is answering the original question by "you should to another type of sampling". A valuable recommandation but not a decision help answere. ;-) > Over time, which is its key, the mite drop method > will show trends. > Which is also a part of IPM. I am considering my excel curves (established with calculated population with the British varroa calculator from every 2 weeks natural drops monitoring) of my hives using this year and last year data. I find this slope approach interesting but I probably missed something. If I only consedere the exponential slope when it happens: - how can I schedule treatment in the right time ? I mean, if I extrapolate the population evolution in time I may use an available window in the season for treatment a couple of weeks or days before the exponential slope happens. - how can I know the final score of the varroa in the hive for winter ? I mean if I established my hives have a good wintering success rate below a varroa population threshold, the slope in mid-september, by itself, is not sufficient to know if I can take the risk to let the hive go in winter without treatment. - if I use an alternative treatment with, lets say 50 to 80% efficiency, how can I know if the treatment is sufficient for wintering ? The slope will not tell me if the varroa population is still to high for wintering with a reasonnable success probability. But maybe I did not understood correctly. Thanks Hervé Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:47:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Defending Exterminating of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Before I begin on what is sure to become a hot topic, I want to thank everyone for their reply on feeding. AE Stanley Co. only sell HFCS in tank trucks. They gave me the name of Cleveland Syrup (216-883-6200) as a distributor in smaller quantities. They will ship one pale. Price breaks with larger loads. A pallet of 24 - 5 gal pails is around $380 plus shipping. I am not on an expert on Africanized bees and if I misquote something here I sure it will be pointed out. However, I have spent most of my career working for a totally mistrusted industry. I have first had knowledge dealing with public perception and hysteria. My job has been to provide information to users and misusers (aka rock throwers at bees) of our products and to try and mitigate the situation when something goes wrong. It does not matter that you products may be essential to our way of life, or that most of the players are upstanding companies that spend millions of dollars to do things right, all it takes is one rogue outfit to mess up and EVERYONE pays the price. To the average person every stinging insect is a bee. Most individuals are afraid of bees and many think beekeepers are a bit strange if not altogether crazy. Tell someone you are a carpenter and they ask what do you build. Tell them you are a beekeeper and the first thing they ask is if you get stung. They focus on the sting not the honey. The negative rather than the positive. When a negative incident occurs the best plan is to correct the situation as quickly as possible. I hate when bees are destroyed, however I won't tolerate a mean colony regardless of how much honey they produce. The bees are justified in defending their home but the residents in the area also have the same right. The bees were in an urban area where some feel they do not belong. If you were to poll the neighborhood and ask if beekeeping should be allowed in town, I am willing to bet most individuals living there would answer a loud no. Had you taken the poll prior to the incident, I believe at least some of the neighbors would not have mind. Here is a situation that adversely affected the industry. The best course of action was the one that was taken. The "bad" bees were destroyed. If you were to have taken the "save the bees" approach, albeit for good reasons, you could have left the impression that the bees are more important than public safety. That is how laws prohibiting beekeeping come into play. Perception is reality. Let me say that again. PERCEPTION IS REALITY. Bees attacked the neighborhood, therefore bees are bad. I would prefer the perception that not all bees are bad and beekeepers, although they are crazy, will work to keep bad bees away which makes them good. Bee attacks are rare so when they happen it makes the news. I will bet the story ran in a few newspapers and possibly on the nightly news stating killer bees were attacking. I don't think I remember reading, earlier this year, a headline that thousands of colonies of bees were safely taken to California to ensure the almond crop and its industry flourish. Bottom line, rogue bees (or beekeepers) can cause the industry much harm. We have to appreciate this and do what is necessary for the good of the whole. That's the way the bees look at it and they know a lot more than we do. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:50:10 -0400 Reply-To: lstclair@ithaca.edu Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lesli St. Clair" Organization: Ithaca College Subject: Re: Defending Exterminating of Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bogansky,Ronald J. wrote: > Bottom line, rogue bees (or beekeepers) can cause the industry much > harm. We have to appreciate this and do what is necessary for the good > of the whole. That's the way the bees look at it and they know a lot > more than we do. > > Ron Bogansky > Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA Like everyone else, though, we have to get our message through loud and clear--and that means as many positive stories as possible to counteract the inevitable negative. For instance, not long ago there was a story about a bee truck that overturned, releasing some 6 million bees. The story included the "horrific" fact that the truck driver was stung 20 times. Twenty? When that quantity had been overturned and upset that way? The media played it up like a horror story. In fact, I thought those bees must have been pretty darned gentle. I wish there had been an interview with a beekeeper to point that out. (Over turn 6 million cattle and let's see how well the truck driver does!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:59:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Interesting topic. Being on the front line of the issue I see good points made by all sides. Each month we learn new things about varroa but still quite a bit we do not understand. "Bill Truesdell" wrote: > Since the virus and Varroa are linked, an increase in Varroa > "overpowers" the colony. > > Varroa is the problem. Otherwise we would monitor for the virus. We learned early on that when you see varroa populations explode you normally see an increase in virus. Dr. Shiminuki named the problem PMS. PMS can be mistaken for many common brood diseases by the untrained beekeeper. Even foulbrood! I have not heard from Dr. Norman Carrick in awhile but Norman tells me in hives in which the viruses are eliminated the bees can tolerate a high varroa load. Norman never said or emailed the method used to control the viruses and I suspect his findings were simply seeing hives without viruses could tolerate a higher varroa load. Maybe Norman will come on and comment. Simply put from my own research. Hives can tolerate a higher varroa load before PMS occurs. Not rocket science! Threshold has been described in posts in two ways. 1. level of varroa reached to begin treatment. Many factors too numerous to even discuss enter in the scenario and the number figure needs to be found for your area and situation through monitoring and prior experience. Most beekeepers simply stop by the bee supply house and throw every med the supply house suggests at their bees without any testing. 2. Level at which treatment is a waste of time and money. I learned the hard way trying to save a hive of bees over threshold for saving the hive. Simply put when varroa and PMS reach a certain level the hive is going to die. Actually giving an exact figure for threshold for a researcher is like placing your head on the chopping block unless you make sure the beekeeper understands the figure is *only* a simple reference point and not an absolute figure. I am always amazed when I have spoke by phone with Wyatt Mangum and he can tell me the *exact* number of varroa in each of his hives on a weekly basis. I would have little time for BEE-L if I counted every varroa on a sticky board! I teased L. Cutts when he told me he counted over 8,000 small hive beetles in a single hive. I asked if he also counted the SHB eggs and larva numbers? My point is that when you start doing testing on a regular basis (Allen Dick will agree I am sure) you can quickly look at a sticky board and make a decision on if to treat or not or when the hive is approaching threshold. I make the *final* decision on treatment at the last time of fall a treatment can be done for the reasons Jim Fischer posted. I do not treat the Russians because if they are not varroa tolerant I really do not want those in my program. Beekeepers are beginning to associate me with Russians because I am testing Russians. The testing is not yet complete. I see things I like and a few things I do not like. I will say many of what people say about Russians does not (or has not been my experience) apply to Russian/Russian lines I have worked with. I love the fact that the Russian/Russians I have worked with almost always requeen after swarming. My queens of other lines from many sources only do about 50% of the time. When I find the Russian bee I want I plan on taking a page from Purvis Brothers Apiaries and adding a frame of drone brood *all year long and not removing* to increase varroa pressure to cull the dinks.\ I challenge all labs doing varroa research to do the same when looking for varroa tolerant bees. Even the Russians were treated at first in Baton Rouge I have been told. I found varroa threshold for my area in regular production hives by leaving some hives untreated at different levels of infestation. Worth the loss in my opinion! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:22:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Defending Exterminating of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ron & All, > The best > course of action was the one that was taken. > Maybe, maybe not. I bet the bees would whole heartily disagree with you, just as I do. The bees were not given the opportunity to defend them selves from the bad kids or the tyrants that killed them. > The "bad" bees were > destroyed. No, the kids were bad and the bees were made example of instead of the kids. The kids probably still have no idea how bad they were. The "bad" bees were only defending themselves and only being themselves and the kids were being themselves and were bad kids. Maybe there should be laws about disturbing feral honey bees. Oh well, I guess nature has no chance or place with Man Kind. c]:~)> Seems the bad in this society never gets just punishment. > If you were to have taken the "save the bees" approach, > albeit for good reasons, you could have left the impression that the > bees are more important than public safety. > This might well be true. If there were an unbiased official who could have justifiable authority to determine the correct course of action the bees may have had rights to be themselves and live in a location other than where they were killed. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:29:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator >This is true. Mark Feldlaufer of the USDA Beltsville Bee Lab >recently hired on Judy Chen, an card-carrying microbiologist, who **she is probably more a molecular biologist than a microbiologist. She used to work with AIDS virus before joining the bee lab. >the bee. The paper is still "in the mill", but has the title: > > "Molecular evidence for transmission of Kashmir bee virus > in honey bee colonies by ectoparasitic mite, Varroa destructor." > >It will be in "Apidologie". No idea when. Its "in press". The >authors are Chen, Pettis, Evans, Kramer, Feldlaufer. **This paper is already out in the most recent Apidologie. Zachary Huang :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:40:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator >Not to criticize Zach, but I disagree, as would >every legitimate IPM education and extension >professional one could find. >But the rationale given is not a basis for making a treatment >decision. What might be a valid basis for a treatment decision >is the much lower mite drops from colonies in the same yard, >but only because the colony in question has a mite drop 45 times >the other colonies. hey do not kill the "messenger" :) :) I am sure if one reads the original paper, the population size was described... Zach (the one always seeming to be taking the "whack"? :) :) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:45:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Defending Exterminating of Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bogansky,Ronald J. wrote: > Before I begin on what is sure to become a hot topic, I appreciate your reasoned post. Each event has to be approached in context. In Maine, we have truckloads of colonies (about 60,000) come in every year to pollinate blueberries. About every third year we have a major spill. One of those happened on a less traveled highway and many of the bees were saved. Another was right by I-95 and the bees were killed by firefighters spraying foam. In both cases, the news coverage was favorable, mainly because there was a beekeeper spokesperson at the scene who could explain the whys of what was going on. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:54:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator In-Reply-To: <200408210251.i7L2pbUO022441@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zachary Huang wrote: > Zach > (the one always seeming to be taking the "whack"? :) :) Actually, most of the whacking was on others. I enjoy your posts especially since they are reasoned and elicit "informed discussion", which is the purpose of the list. All of us who post go through the gauntlet. It is an excellent way to learn since your set beliefs are challenged. Plus you get an additional benefit by posting. You get exceptional skin conditioning. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:29:53 -0400 Reply-To: yskim@philander.edu Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: 33 Colony Operation in OK For Sale Dr. Y. S. Kim (Yoon) has asked me to pass this along. He is moving six hours away, and would rather sell ti all off than attempt to move it all. =========================================================== For sale: Sideline Operation in Shawnee, OK 1. More or less 33 colonies (Italian/Carniolan/Feral), not yet extracted and most of them reach abut six feet, on less than three year-old supers. 2. 1000 lbs settling tank (Kelly) 3. Few free barrels 4. 19 frame (deep) manual extractor from Mann Lake Numerous migratory tops and screened bottoms without trays. 5. Uncapping Knives 6. Veils and Helmets 7. The Bee Bible Serious inquiries only to : (501) 370-5231 (Work) or (501) 370-5333 ext. 4118 I may not be able to answer the phone over the weekend but please keep trying :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:14:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My point is that when you start doing testing on a regular basis > (Allen Dick will agree I am sure) you can quickly look at a sticky > board and make a decision on if to treat or not or when the hive is > approaching threshold. Yes, and in each case, that threshold is actually as closely associated with the psychology of the beekeeper as it is with science. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:44:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Corn Syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wanted to add something to the thread on corn syrup, particularly in regards to price comparisons with sugar syrup. First, there are two common grades of corn syrup. High Fructose Corn Syrup ("HFCS") 42 and HFCS 55. Don't ask me what the numbers stand for, I don't know. But the HFCS 42 has fewer solids (more on solids later) than the HFCS 55. Very important is that the HFCS 42 is likely to ferment if not immediately taken up by the bees, while the HFCS 55 will not ferment. These grades sell at an exact multiple of their solids, so one is not really getting a 'better price' with the HFCS 42, although it appears to be less expensive. As I recall the HFCS 55 is 85% solids, meaning 85% sugar, with the remainder being water. Think about making a sugar syrup that is 85% sugar! Even with a ½" drill and a drywall mixer getting that percent sugar dissolved would be a major task. Then there are the bees to consider. Somewhere in the dark recesses of my mind, which operated better when I was young than they do now, I recall that the bees have to do something to the sugar (invert it?), and in the process they concentrate the mixture. The HFCS 55 is all ready concentrated to the needed level (I recall) so it is more immediately available to the bees as food, while the HFCS 42 and your kitchen/garage 50/50 sugar syrup needs to be concentrated to the HFCS 55 level. All those dummies that 'save money' by buying the HFCS 42 are not really 'saving' anything, as they have to feed more (pounds or gallons) to give the bees the same amount of usable feed that they would get with the HFCS 55. (I hope someone out there can better express this than I.to make it more clear to the group, and so I can relearn.) If one were to make a price per pound comparison between HFCS 55 and home-prepared sugar syrup, ON THE BASIS OF THE POUNDS OF SUGAR CONTAINED IN EACH, HFCS 55 would always be less expensive. Even with sugar at $.20 a pound. About once a year our local 'big box' stores have it at this price as a come on. $.35 a pound is more common. What should a beekeeper expect to pay for HFCS 55 in 60 pound pails? The Cleveland Syrup price of $380 for 24 buckets, plus shipping, is a good price (assuming it is HFCS 55, and not HFCS 42). Deduct the cost of the bucket ($3.00), and it is $.21 cents a pound plus shipping. Betterbee in Greenwich, NY sells it for $.30, plus shipping. Can a beekeeper do better? If you have a 'contact' check with your local Pepsi or Coke bottler. They use carloads of the stuff. Getting them to put it into your 5 gallon pails will be the challenge. But I know those who do it. Appeal to their obligation to help keep honeybees alive and well. Three firms dominate the commercial beekeeper market working as brokers to deliver corn syrup. Dadant, Mann Lake, and B & B Honey Farms. Call them for a commercial beekeeper near you (100 miles?) who buys full or half loads. My guess is that they would gladly make it easy for you to fill (and pay for) a few 60 pound pails. Finally, most State beekeeping associations (compared to local associations) have many commercial beekeepers as members. Call the President of yours and ask for names of those who bring in full or half loads of corn syrup. I hope this helps. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:39:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Corn Syrup In-Reply-To: <004a01c48795$ae5ace40$b2e9d518@newdell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > First, there are two common grades of corn syrup. High Fructose Corn Syrup > ("HFCS") 42 and HFCS 55. The 55 and 42 is the amount of fructose while the rest is glucose. To complicate matters there are two ways to make HFCS, one of which is acid hydrolysis. It is deadly to bees. Most is enzyme produced so the danger is slight, but there have been some large kills from its use. Pays to read the label. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:30:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Defending Exterminating of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit " When a negative incident occurs the best plan is to correct the > situation as quickly as possible." YES " The best course of action was the one that was taken. The "bad" bees were > destroyed." UNBALANCED REACTION. There was a problem. A solution was needed. There were two sides - health of public v. health of bees. So, a case for negotiation. Start by recognising the causes/strength/rights on BOTH sides - the bees may have been bad tempered but they were provoked - the colony was located in an inappropriate place - but the behaviour of the children was out of line and symptomatic of ignorance of the benefit bees bring to food production and the environment. Then offer a concession provided the other side will also offer a concession - so, WE will agree to removal of these bees provided the CITY agrees that not all bees are bad /some living space should be available to bees. We will remove these bees free if the city will designate a site where a replacement colony can be safely installed. The children could have got badly hurt thru their ignorance - we will design an 'educative panel' to be displayed on the site where the conony was attacked if the city will manufacture the board and also publise the co-operative outcome acheived between beekeepers and the city to solve this particular unforetunate incident. Just killing the bees gave in to dictatorship by the uninformed. No benefit to the future - but OK, yes, it saved trouble in the short term. HOWEVER, when the root causes of problems are not tackled, the problems reappear - and the precedent set on the first occassion makes it more difficult to get a banced solution next time round. The public has learnt that all they have to do to get bees removed is throw rocks at them and beekeepers will take all the blame and retreat shamefacedly. Ron Bogansky clearly has all the skills/experience to draft a 'negotiation manual for beekeepers for use when bees are under attack in urban locations' . What about it , Ron? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:40:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Corn Syrup In-Reply-To: <004a01c48795$ae5ace40$b2e9d518@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-46405911; boundary="=======9F640F4=======" --=======9F640F4======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-46405911; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Very important is that the HFCS 42 is likely to ferment if not >immediately taken up by the bees, while the HFCS 55 will not ferment. Lloyd Did you mean crystallize, and not ferment? I don't believe either will ferment. >Can a beekeeper do better? >Lloyd Well, you could do what we do in Vermont. Several beekeepers go in together on a load, and they fill our honey drums off their trailer. I believe we bought about 30,000 lbs last year. You would have to figure out what the minimum load is delivered to your unloading location, find enough beekeepers to handle it, and make sure everyone shows up with a check :-) Mike --=======9F640F4=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:58:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bill Truesdell" "Varroa is the problem. Otherwise we would monitor for the virus." With respect, I doubt that. Whilst it is child's play to monitor the size of the varroa population (since varroa are easliy separted from their host and are then visible to the naked eye), detecting viruses requires laboratory techniques (explained in Bailey and Ball, Honey Bee Pathology,1991 ). Anyway , what would be the point? There is no known treatment for virus infections, they have to take their course, all we can do is to avoid any increase in the natural transmission rate and then colonies can cope. So, we control varroa since it is the mites that spread the viruses. (Apparently tracheal mites do too, the killer combination is v + t together). But controlling varroa as the vector is not the same as controlling the cause of bee death directly. The analogy is dirt on a child. The dirt does minimal damage directly to the child but provides a breeding site for germs that then make the child sick. The dirt is removed immediately by scribbing but the sickness drags on until overcome by the child's natural defences (immune system). IMHO it is this linkage that makes the concept of an 'economic threshold' for pest treatment inappropriate for beekeeping. That concept comes from agriculture where say beetles eat a field crop. By monitoring the number of beetles at a certain time you can work out whether the total damage to the crop before harvest justifies the cost of applying pesticide to kill the beetles. But I have never heard of a way to estimate the reduction in honey crop due to a moderate varroa infestation, starting from just an estimate of the mite population on a particular date. We make only a crude estimate of whether the colony will end up completely dead if not treated within time. And we cannot even know for certain whether or not a particular level of mites will lead to death - since we do not know the present or predicted level of virus in that colony. The rule of thumb in UK is that colonies are safe from collapse if the mites never exceed 2,500 - but we know colonies without virus have survived mites of 10,000 plus - and those with both varroa and tracheal can collapse with only 1,000. (I am quoting from memory of Prof Mark Winston at lectures - no publication of his reaseach work is known to me). This is therefore only a crude guide - it sets a theshold for 'effective treatment (ie one that works more often than not) but it is not a level set by any valid economic argument. I myself monitor varroa just on a scale of 3 - a few (=up to 10/day) , no problem; some (=to 30/day, think of treatment) ; a lot (=c100/day) treat urgently. As has been said, each beekeeper needs to start with some assumption on a safety level in his area, as measured by whatever means the beekeeper finds most convenient, (natural drop, ether roll, drone forking) and then see if it can be raised or lowered without apparent excessive damage to the colony. Any such damage, as said, is caused by increase in virus, not the mites directly. Bees emerging from cells where varroa have bred are underweight but recover after eating pollen on emergence - but longevity is reduced to some extent. Virus damage can be visible when it has reached high levels - bees with K-wings (similar to tracheal mite damage), bees with shrivelled wings which will never fly, bees that quiver on the comb with perhaps piles of dead on the floor (Acute Paralysis). So far as I know, other viruses do not produce such visible symptoms. The final test of course is 'did the colony survive winter at full strength?' Virus affected bees die early - so an over-wintering colony can just dwindle. So far all UK beekeepers have had to when the danger level has been reached is insert Apistan, UK gov scientists do not object to treatment with supers on, so anytime. Easy - but resistant mites are now appearing across UK. We will have to use a variety of ways thru the season to successively curb mite growth. Much more difficult. So we watch this list with great interest - and gratitude to those willing to share their experience . Robin :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:46:31 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Defending Exterminating of Bees I, for one would like to know where the PETA folks are when they are needed! :) Throwing rocks at cute furry little insects is not only mean, it is downright twisted. Given that the area was not outside the range of AHB, it was also downright suicidal. While the colony MIGHT have been hived and moved away, the number of people stung proved that the colony was not just hot, but thermonuclear. I would have exterminated it without a second thought. We beekeepers have little to worry about if people can read past the scaremongering "Attack" headlines. It is no big surprise that animals turn nasty when they are poked with sticks or pelted with stones. I used to read the book "Never Tease A Weasel" to my sons and children of friends. It contains timeless wisdom: "Never tease a weasel; don't make me tell you twice! The weasel will not like it, and teasing isn't nice!" jim (Being powerful is like being a gentleman. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::