From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:49:18 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89BC54905F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDKF012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0408E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 68753 Lines: 1558 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:42:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Dettori Subject: Re: Lavender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On second thought I am all wrong. Sorry for the confusion. Mark Dettori wrote: > > 1 hectare = 100 acres :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:37:26 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Lavender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1 hectare = 100 acres Not so. 1 hectare = 2.5 acres = 10,000sq.m. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 23:52:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Simple event turned into killer bee story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In July at the W.A.S. conference in Missoula, Kimberly Winter (North American Pollinator Protection Campaign, NAPPC, www.nappc.org) mentioned during her talk she had worked with AHB in South America. After she spoke I asked if they were as bad as we hear about. She said they were. In his book ‘Africanized Honey Bees in the Americas’, as I recall, Dewey Caron mentions that as AHB spread upwards through South America most of the local beekeepers at the time said they would be able to handle them prior to their arrival. When the bees arrived it was another story. A lot of them quit beekeeping according to Dr. Caron. We are hearing the same thing from some beekeepers here in the U.S. now. Some think AHB is nothing more than ‘killer bee’ hype and that their aggressiveness will be diluted as they mix with EHB. I don’t think it’s happened yet. We’ll see. Your post, ot course, is going to be used as “evidence” by that crowd that AHB is really no different than EHB. You just can’t win......... Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:03:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Small cell size In-Reply-To: <200408281733.i7SHOZad019252@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dennis & all > http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/vari.htm The above page has a wonderful statement "Bees left to themselves construct a nest composed of different sized cells. The nest is not random or haphazard. It is organized so that the proper sized cells are available at the right location." I think Dennis's attempt failed as the gradations used in the different strips were too coarse. When I have used triangles of drone foundation in the corners of the frames they have resulted in well drawn patches of drone cells. But I think that success was because the overall pattern of the foundation in the frame was close to what the bees would have done for themselves. I think any attempt to mimic the variable cellsize of natural brood comb must be based on subtle variations (continuous variability) in cellsize rather than the strips or regions of foundation. But what is wrong with using starter strips? They are less expensive, are often drawn more quickly than whole sheets, the bees get to produce wax and do waxwork, combs are recycled more frequently, the wax is a saleable product in it's own right... Surely all of these things are desirable and working in the right direction and the bees are in control of cellsize and whatever variation they desire. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:05:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Small cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone developed a foundation with varying sizes, with the smaller > cells to the center and the larger to the outside? Would it be worth putting normal foundation into frames but cutting out a large central circle? Combs might then be reasonably parallel, so easy to manipulate, but the bees could build just the centres with small cells. Anyone tried this? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:27:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bob Harrison" " Unless you have got bees which can maintain a varroa load you ARE always > trying to kill varroa!" Why does the third way - to modify the internal environment of the hive by adding small quantities of substances with the aim of slowing reproduction of varroa and stabilising the population at a low level, rather than get one huge dramatic hit - never get a hearing? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:27:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "James Fischer" " To me, it seems that it is not a question of "if" one should > treat a colony, but instead, a question of "when", except in > the unique and rare case of no detectable varroa at all." I was grateful for this post because it really explained the inter-relation of virus and varroa - and was so clearly written. Surely the conclusion is also clear. A good varroa is a dead varroa. Treat on every opportunity when you can do so with only reasonable cost/labour. Keep suppressing the varroa level to near zero. Was'nt the only reason the 'experts' were saying 'treat only when the level is so high the colony will die otherwise' because it was known that bees would develop resistance to Apistan faster the more times it was used (every successive application selected mites that were on the way to developing resistance). But if we are moving (in UK, I do not know elsewhere) to an IPM regime, the treatments are of types where resistance is not expected to develop. It would seem we should apply IPM constantly, to every colony - does Jim really have a dillema? The question today, is how can we reduce the labour need for each treatment. We need better engineering. Jim also said: "Beekeepers are just now starting to get the message that one must monitor varroa populations, a message that the researchers and extension people have been pushing for years." Thank goodness for endorsement of monitoring. Some posts seemed to have questioned the point, on grounds that accurate corelation with mite population seems impossible. That really was confusing. Has science not has always been about measuring/experimenting/measuring again? If there are variables, does science not isolate the variables, determine which are important, rather than give up? Allen and Jim have both reffered to the importance of keeping varroa below a level when multiple occupation of brood cells starts, how can we know if the danger level approaches without monitoring, estimating /forecasting mite population and comparing with estimates for broodcell count (and remembering that varroa numbers constantly increase, while brood count falls in autumn, precipitating a sudden crisis)? Robin Dartington . :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 07:46:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill & All, Bill makes excellent points but also maybe without realizing highlights another problem our USDA people are always pointing out to beekeepers. Bill said: so it makes sense to treat all the crop. You do not want to come back over and over again just to treat each affected area in turn. Most beekeepers are pressed for time. They want a "magic bullit". A treatment for varroa they can simply drop into a gallon of bee feed and be done with all bee parasite & bee disease. Many may laugh but I have heard over and over big beekeepers ask the USDA-ARS for the above at meetings! It is no surprise the worlds beekeepers quickly accepted chemical strips as part of their way of doing business( much like the apple grower uses around fourteen chemical sprays a year to insure perfect fruit). Now all over the U.S. bees are becoming resistant to both the two main strips in use. Exactly like when fluvaliante resistant varroa were found in the U.S. and tens of thousands of commercial hives started crashing beekeepers instead of placing the blame on themselves for not being on top of the situation blamed: 1. winter 2. bad queens 3.viruses 4. some new unknown problem 5. bad advice from bee supply house 6. bad advice from fellow beekeepers ( should be number one problem maybe) Bill said; Same with bees. In a large operation it would seem to make more sense with limited sampling to treat all the colonies rather than discrete colonies, unless you can show that there is no Varroa in a colony, which is difficult. Usually when resistant varroa occur only one hive to a pallet is effected and can easily go undetected with random testing. Bill said: One of the few things I learned from a statistics class was when one fluorescent bulb went out in a factory (at about its normal life), it was more cost efficient to replace them all than just the one, Here is the problem I refered to. Blanket treating lets lines of bees survive which have got zero tolerance to varroa & creates super chemical resistant varroa such as we are seeing now Varroa which are resistant to coumaphos can not be controlled by rotating back to fluvalanate. Sure you will kill what appears to be many varroa but (as Jim Fischer pointed out) a huge amount of varroa will be left for the next spring and before long varroa is crashing hives. Bill said: and actually be more cost efficient than a piecemeal approach. Again, labor is the driving factor, not the cost of the bulb. Hard to compare varroa to replacing light bulbs but I agree with the principal Varroa has caused more beekeepers to leave beekeeping than any problem ever seen in beekeeping worldwide. At first those using chemical strips laughed at the folly of those trying to create a bee which could survive ver and the efforts of the small cell beekeepers. Now with varroa control getting harder many of those beekeepers are not laughing but looking our way. Beekeeping history: I am still amazed when looking back that HALF of the commercial hives in the U.S. were lost to tracheal mites (when beekeepers new they were spreading and methods of control were around). Half the hives in the U.S. were according to records killed by varroa between 1987 and 1997. Apistan was around . Why did those beekeepers sit and wait for hives to crash before taking action? Both the above killing of hives did serve the purpose of killing bees which could not tolerate varroa or tracheal mites at all . The big kill in the 80's of hives by tracheal mites did leave us with bees which for the most part could tolerate tracheal mites (many of the dark lines without treatment). The big kill off from varroa did little to leave us a survivor bee. I think the research of Dr. Harbo explains why many survivors survive. Varroa control is a complicated subject . Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:50:42 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato > Why does the third way - to modify the internal environment of the > hive by adding small quantities of substances with the aim of slowing > reproduction of varroa and stabilising the population at a low level, > rather than get one huge dramatic hit - never get a hearing? Perhaps because there AREN'T any substances that can be shown to slow the reproduction of varroa or somehow stabilize the population at a low level. While there are multiple substances that one can introduce into a beehive and see some sort of mite drop, these substances have been shown to NOT be able to keep hives from being overwhelmed by varroa, most have been shown to be no better than doing nothing at all. Yes, I realize that there are beekeepers who may claim that they have had good success with this or that, and are convinced that they have stumbled upon the magic bullet against varroa, but I must remind all that the singular form of the word "data" is NOT "anecdote". jim (That all men should be brothers is the dream of men who have no siblings) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 00:07:13 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato Bill said: >> so it makes sense to treat all the crop. You do not want to come >> back over and over again just to treat each affected area in turn. Given that we know that hives on the same pallet can show very different levels of varroa infestation at the same time, is the IPM equivalent of a "crop in a field" a hive, a pallet, or an entire yard? I honestly don't know. The usual IPM models of pest/crop interaction don't seem to apply well to beekeeping, as some hives are clearly more infested than others for no apparent reason. IPM models assume a much more homogenous dispersal of pests within the "crop" than beekeepers have among hives. It shouldn't make sense to treat every hive at any one point in time, as we know that if we do drop tests on all the hives, some hives will show us that they don't need treatment. The problem here is that the labor cost of monitoring mites for any one hive exceeds the cost of treatment for that hive. I've never heard anything even close to the above from anyone involved in research, even those who talk about an "economic threshold" as if there was one worked out for beekeepers. Bottom line, beekeepers are drowning, and most of the researchers are busy doing research on the salinity of the water! ^.^ Bob said: > Most beekeepers are pressed for time. They want a "magic bullit". > A treatment for varroa they can simply drop into a gallon of bee feed and > be done with all bee parasite & bee disease. Many may laugh but I have heard > over and over big beekeepers ask the USDA-ARS for the above at meetings! What's wrong with asking for a cost-effective approach, over and over again, until someone listens? A systemic would be exactly that, but systemics are difficult, and simple miticides are, by comparison, easy. Bob continued: > Now all over the U.S. bees are becoming resistant to both the two main > strips in use. Exactly like when fluvaliante resistant varroa were found > in the U.S. and tens of thousands of commercial hives started crashing > beekeepers instead of placing the blame on themselves for not being on top > of the situation blamed [a long list of stuff] While alternating treatments certainly is a good idea, lets take Virginia as a good example. We can use Apistan against varroa, but CheckMite is permitted under a Section 18 for use only against small hive beetle. Funny, we don't have SHB in VA, and therefore don't need CheckMite for SHB. (The few incursions to date were wiped out when they were detected in packages from producers in the southeastern states.) From my viewpoint, even the regulators are being cynical, in that they expect me to "alternate", and in doing so, to break the law. Ordering CheckMite when I don't have small hive beetle, and using it against varroa would clearly be breaking the law. Not that I ever want to use CheckMite. I would sooner host a fall solstice bonfire, and burn every hive than bring an organophosphate anywhere near my farm. The punch line is that it has only recently been revealed that the EPA is ready, willing, and able to approve multiple Section 18s for different substances aimed at the same pest, the exact opposite of what was thought to be the case. There is no reason why every state cannot make the entire suite of available munitions "legal" under Section 18s for use against varroa. Right now, I could use CheckMite, and break the law, or I could get some "gray market" ApiLife-VAR from another beekeeper in a state with an ApiLife Section 18, which would (all together, now) also be breaking the law. But strictly speaking, the only treatment that is effective and legal in VA for varroa is Apistan. As luck would have it, I have not seen resistance. Not yet, anyway. But if I want to avoid creating resistance, I need to alternate my treatments, which would mean breaking the law. So what's an ethical person to do? Bill said: >> One of the few things I learned from a statistics class was when one >> fluorescent bulb went out in a factory (at about its normal life), it >> was more cost efficient to replace them all than just the one, This is an even worse metaphor for a yard of hives than the "crop in a field" model. Lightbulbs have a predictable lifespan, and bulbs in a factory are clearly subjected to identical use and environment. > Half the hives in the U.S. were according to records killed by varroa > between 1987 and 1997. Apistan was around . Why did those beekeepers sit and > wait for hives to crash before taking action? Because beekeepers have never taken action until they took significant losses. Don't ask me why - there are certainly enough workshops about pests and diseases. Of course, sitting in workshops doesn't make you a beekeeper any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car. jim ("We must get tough with the suicide bombers." - George W. Bush "How, when they blow themselves up as step one?" - Me ) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 00:27:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, I have got many friends among bee inspectors. The bee inspectors I have talked to will look the other way many times when beekeepers are prevented from using the products they need to save their bees by *red tape*. When a product such as Apilife var is withheld by red tape when we all expect the product to get a full registration before long is silly. One foot in the next state the product is legal but one foot into Virginia the product is not. *Bee inspectors will not look away when products are used for varroa control which will contaminate honey and wax.* I seriously doubt most bee inspectors would consider making a fuss over a beekeeper using Apilife var to keep his hives from dying even if not approved in Virginia but as Jim said you would still be breaking the law and each bee inspector is different. Jim said: or I could get some "gray market" ApiLife-VAR from another beekeeper in a state with an ApiLife Section 18, which would (all together, now) also be breaking the law. I believe Api Life var gives good control of varroa as long as you follow the label instructions. I used Api Life var on problem Italians last year and plan to use again this year. I will say it is of no use to ask a bee supply house to ship a chemical under a section 18 into an area without a section 18. Even close friends at the bee supply houses know better than pull a stunt like that as they can get in big trouble. Jim said: But strictly speaking, the only treatment that is effective and legal in VA for varroa is Apistan. As luck would have it, I have not seen resistance.Not yet, anyway. I am surprised at the number of places which do not have fluvalinate resistant varroa. I got my first in 1998. Apistan has been used in the U.S. since 1987 I believe. Ten years was the time limit we were told before we would see fluvalinate resistant varroa without another chemical to rotate with. Even after 4-6 years attempts to return to Apistan has been met with poor results. A single Apistan strip will drop a couple hundred varroa in a hive *infested with varroa* in 24 hours with a sticky board . Should be around three thousand. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 07:09:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato In-Reply-To: <000801c48e52$0b8f0000$5dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1FE362F5; boundary="=======7BC35FFE=======" --=======7BC35FFE======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1FE362F5; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >I believe Api Life var gives good control of varroa as long as you follow >the label instructions. I used Api Life var on problem Italians last year >and plan to use again this year. Bob Could you give details on how to use ApiLife? Effects of temperature, etc. Do you need to use a rim on top of the hive to give space around the product? Were there negative effects on the bees or queens? How much time does the product take to administer? Very important to now, as my help walked out the door Saturday morning...they didn't like me saying 2.5 barrels extracted in 8 hours Friday was unsatisfactory. Anybody want a job? Mike --=======7BC35FFE=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:06:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: IPM and Beekeeping In-Reply-To: <02ac01c48e46$d4b62be0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > Given that we know that hives on the same pallet can show very different > levels of varroa infestation at the same time, is the IPM equivalent of > a "crop in a field" a hive, a pallet, or an entire yard? > > I honestly don't know. The usual IPM models of pest/crop interaction > don't seem to apply well to beekeeping, as some hives are clearly more > infested than others for no apparent reason. IPM models assume a much > more homogenous dispersal of pests within the "crop" than beekeepers > have among hives. The Beekeepers in Maine were asked to join an Ag group that was set up to act as a single voice for agriculture in lobbying state government. I pushed for our inclusion and we were welcomed. What was most interesting was how small our voice was even with the amplification of the group. Beekeeping is small business in Agriculture, compared to the rest of the community. That is reflected in the number of controls we have for our pests and any good, unified IPM program for the control of Varroa. Large Ag business are not interested in a small market. With all the darts thrown at the giant chemical companies, we should be glad that they are around, since the small companies could not afford to provide the beekeeping market with controls. Stating the obvious, IPM is not just when to apply pesticides but also the rotation of controls, development of resistant crops, genetic modification, use of biological controls, use of weather/temperature, etc.. It is Integrated. There is work being done in some of these areas in beekeeping but there is no single voice in the US suggesting an IPM program for beekeeping under our current conditions. It is a piecemeal approach. Apistan, then cumophose, then.... as each loses its effectiveness. We do have a single "crop" and one size could fit all. There are National beekeeping organizations that might take the development of an IPM program for beekeepers under their wing. It would be nice to see a program for rotation of controls on a national level, but then we run into the problem Jim has addressed. We just do not have the controls in every State because of our lack of economic clout. That gets us back to the National Beekeeping organizations. It would also be a program that is not static, just as IPM programs for other commodities are not static. Which means it will not be a one shot program but will have to be sustained. Medhat set up such a program for a group of Canadian Beekeepers. It was IPM at its best with controls, breeding and cooperation of beekeepers to make it work. It would be nice to see the same in the US. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:02:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike asked: Could you give details on how to use ApiLife? I always experiment with a new product and did with Api life var. Using less of a product is always legal but not more. I used a full tablet on a group of hives and also 2/3 of a tablet on a group of hives . Both had the same control but weather conditions were exactly as recommended on the label. Not over 90 F or under 54 F. >.Do you need to use a rim on top of the hive to give space around the product? I do not believe a rim is neccessary . I use migratory tops and simply broke the tablet into about four pieces and placed on top of frames in the four corners. The bees try and remove (and do in a strong hive) or propolis over. >Were there negative effects on the bees or queens? Absolutely none! >How much time does the product take to administer? I would say about 30 seconds a hive if lids are off. I cut a slit in the package with a knife., break the thymol into four pieces , place each piece on top of frames in each of the four corners of the top box and then deposit the package in a MT 5 gallon bucket. The drawback with Api Life var is having to treat three times at 7-10 day intervals. A large percentage of my hives are not treated and testing guides the decision to treat or not and when. I believe waiting to treat after the weather gets cold would be a problem with Api Life var exactly the same as trying to use menthol (crystals) too late in the season. I also believe not keeping the proper timing between treatments to be a problem but have never done testing to see how improper timing effects control or use in adverse weather conditions effect control. Maybe only me but I would wear gloves when handling and would keep the MT packages outside of the truck cab as the smell of fresh tymol is not pleasant to smell. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:23:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: IPM and Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Truesdell" To: Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 5:06 AM Subject: [BEE-L] IPM and Beekeeping > James Fischer wrote: > > > > I honestly don't know. The usual IPM models of pest/crop interaction > > don't seem to apply well to beekeeping, as some hives are clearly more > > infested than others for no apparent reason. IPM models assume a much > > more homogenous dispersal of pests within the "crop" than beekeepers > > have among hives. > > Stating the obvious, IPM is not just when to apply pesticides but also > the rotation of controls, development of resistant crops, genetic > modification, use of biological controls, use of weather/temperature, > etc.. It is Integrated. > Bill Truesdell > Bath, Maine Hi Bill Jim and All, IPM will be a changing system for all beekeepers. The overall umbrella will stay the same. Techniques will change as we learn more. We have a very large problem in beekeeping.Genetics in bees gives us a vast variance in behavior.. Then take in the variance in the environment in different locations. That right there should show you that there is no straight line for beekeepers Parts of IPM will work all over. Some will not. Beekeepers will not get a front row seat in ag. One , we are too laid back by nature.Type "A" people do not do bees. We do help and make it possible for the type A's to make there money by our pollination work. We must have researchers working on our problems all the time. Some of that is going on and we should be thankful for it. No silver bullet , just more knowledge. We will have to work with what we have. Beekeepers all over the world are having problems. IPM is the best route to go. How that worked out is up to us. Keep the big organizations pushing for help. Beekeepers are lucky. They have to love what they do. That is not a bad job.Think about the person at Microsoft in there little cubical looking at a screen all day. I know hundreds of them. They envy the pictures of my office. The Olympic Mountains.. Enjoy the trip. Best Regards Roy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:01:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato Comments: To: Bob Harrison On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 00:27:28 -0500, Bob Harrison> wrote: >I am surprised at the number of places which do not have fluvalinate >resistant varroa. I got my first in 1998. Apistan has been used in the U.S. >since 1987 I believe. Ten years was the time limit we were told before we >would see fluvalinate resistant varroa without another chemical to rotate >with. > >Even after 4-6 years attempts to return to Apistan has been met with poor >results. A single Apistan strip will drop a couple hundred varroa in a hive >*infested with varroa* in 24 hours with a sticky board . Should be around >three thousand. > > Bob Bob, if you think your mites are still resistant, please send some to me. We used tabacco smoke here for 30 min and usually get a mite drop higher than 24 hr natural drop. these mites are usually alive and kicking on a sticky board which we then harvest for DNA study. thanks, Zachary :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:04:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy.l.flaming@EXGATE.TEK.COM Subject: Pesticide regulations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bob said, >I always experiment with a new product and did with Api life var. >Using less of a product is always legal but not more. Not so. In the US, all registered pesticides have label instructions on how it must be used and any usage outside of those instructions are technically illegal - even using less of a product than what the label specifies. Of course, you will likely never get arrested for it and it happens all the time - as you so well pointed out. But that is the sort of behavior that leads to resistant varieties of the pest you are trying to control and even bigger problems down the road. Having said that, I do not know if Api Life Var is a registered pesticide or not, but I suspect it is. The casual, but flagrant violation of the pesticide laws by many beekeepers I find to be nothing short of amazing - as evidenced by my own assembling of an oxalic acid vaporizer this past weekend. Randy Flaming Oregon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:37:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato In-Reply-To: <002301c48eaa$bd326ec0$09bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-13106D4F; boundary="=======696542C4=======" --=======696542C4======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-13106D4F; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > >I used a full tablet on a group of hives and also 2/3 of a tablet on a group >of hives . Both had the same control but weather conditions were exactly as >recommended on the label. Bob What amount of mite control do you feel your bees received? Did you do some kind of mite count before and after, or are you going by over-wintering results? > The bees try and remove (and do >in a strong hive) or propolis over. Bob >Someone said to wrap tabs in screen. Is that necessary? Did the strong >colonies which removed the tabs receive good treatment results? Mike --=======696542C4=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:12:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pesticide regulations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said, >I always experiment with a new product and did with Api life var. >Using less of a product is always legal but not more. Randy said: Not so. Yes so! We have had this discussion many times on BEE-L and covered in the archives!. Less is legal and more pesticide than label is not. Randy said: But that is the sort of behavior that leads to resistant varieties of the pest you are trying to control and even bigger problems down the road. I do not believe the above applies to thymol. Bees have never shown a resistance to thymol. Applying general ideas will not work on BEE-L as we usually talk very specific. If you want to get real specific we were told by Brushy Mountain to use only 2/3 of a tablet last year but the information this year says one whole tablet three times at 7 to 10 day intervals. Randy said: Having said that, I do not know if Api Life Var is a registered pesticide or not, but I suspect it is. Not yet! Currently under a section 18 emergency use but a full registration is in the works and expected to happen. Certain states have not applied for the section 18 ( mainly because the beekeepers in the state have not pushed the issue). Randy said: The casual, but flagrant violation of the pesticide laws by many beekeepers I find to be nothing short of amazing - as evidenced by my own assembling of an oxalic acid vaporizer this past weekend. The small beekeeper can get away with violations but the larger beekeepers bees are put through many inspections ( I have had as many as four inspections in a year) and honey tested by the FDA. I will not use an illegal method of varroa control ( fine is$10,000 and has been used against a close friend beekeeper by the bee inspection service years ago). Honest Bob Ps. Hell the bee inspection service could be tracking Randy down as we speak to levy a $10,000 fine for his use of oxalic acid ! Kidding! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:36:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike asks: What amount of mite control do you feel your bees received? In the 90% range judging from varroa testing coming out of winter. Did you do some kind of mite count before and after, or are you going by over-wintering results? I had been checking mites loads for a few weeks and knew I was going to have to treat those bees before winter ( 2003). I have got some production Italians which are at high varroa loads as we speak and will need a treatment of some kind this fall . The bees overwintered good but I rely on testing rather than wintering as many factors can effect wintering and I do not always winter in Missouri. I was waiting for the section 18 for Api Life var to be approved for Missouri and had yards which had varroa levels climbing (2003). The section 18 went through on August 28, 2003 and Brushy Mountain shipped mine I believe the same day and I started installing the day UPS brought the order. We had the worst drought I have ever seen last year so treatment was not a problem as I was pumping feed each week to keep the bees from starving. Mike asks: Someone said to wrap tabs in screen. Is that necessary? Nope! Was done in original testing by Delaplane but not needed in my opinion as the bees will still propolis the screen shut! The screen is not recommended currently by Brushy Mountain. Mike asks: Did the strong >colonies which removed the tabs receive good treatment results? I believe they did and those were the colonies which had the high varroa infestation. I have done a few trials with a single treatment and only a double treatment but I recommend treating as per label ( 3 times) and when the temperature is between 90F & 54 F. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:57:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > > One of the few things I learned from a statistics class was when one > fluorescent bulb went out in a factory (at about its normal life), it > was more cost efficient to replace them all than just the one, since the > others would be going out also. That way, you would do the same thing > the next time and actually be more cost efficient than a piecemeal > approach. Again, labor is the driving factor, not the cost of the bulb. > Bill, The only difference here (we hope) is that not all colonies are as identical as the florescent tube. This I believe is how we let nature make improvements. I don't believe we will lick this Varroa problem very economically, at least for now. I think we all have to pay our dues now and hopefully cash in at a later date. I am inclined to believe there are strains of bees out there that can keep varroa at an economical level and as long as we keep treating the ones that cant handle the problem miticides will be the way of the future as long as the chemical companies can keep up. Alden Marshall Hudson, NH 03051 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 03:23:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Pesticide regulations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Ps. Hell the bee inspection service could be tracking Randy down as > we speak to levy a $10,000 fine for his use of oxalic acid ! Kidding! Stranger things have happened. Some time back, a Texas sideline beekeeper was persecuted by USDA for merely _describing_ (not recommending), on an AOL bee group, how some commercial beekeepers were using a commercial miticide in their beehives to control varroa. FWIW, the method described was definitely off-label, since the product was not registered for bees. At any rate the ACLU had to get involved to protect his freedom of speech, and it took a while to get the matter resolved. As far as oxalic is concerned, I don't know why you guys down there in the 'land of the free' don't get together and register oxalic. Regardless of what a few naysayers claim, oxalic _can_ be handled safely, works well, and leaves no detectable residues. Moreover, oxalic is used freely in some of the most discriminating countries. In Canada, CHC has now raised $23,000 Canadian dollars and has the approval process underway. See http://honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=876&nID=409 Oxalic may not be the magic bullet in areas where there is brood year 'round, but oxalic -- evaporated or drenched -- is another low cost, safe weapon in the fight against varroa. For some up in the north, oxalic seems to control well enough that nothing else is required. And, did I say oxalic is cheap? Don't wait for some big chemical company to register it. I doubt thay can figure out how to get a slice of the 2c per hive that a treatment costs or figure out how to make beekeepers dependant on their proprietary formula. Beekeepers will have to dig into their pockets and pony up some of that $1.98 (or maybe $3.98) per hive they stand to save each year to earn the right to use oxalic without looking back over their shoulders. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 06:28:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Pesticide regulations In-Reply-To: <000e01c48f3c$3d4c3230$1bb85ad1@Nemo> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-317513A3; boundary="=======4B45C41=======" --=======4B45C41======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-317513A3; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > oxalic -- evaporated or drenched -- is another low cost, safe >weapon in the fight against varroa. For some up in the north, oxalic seems >to control well enough that nothing else is required. >allen I have found directions for Oxalic drench, but not for Oxalic evaporation. Is there a site that gives good directions for its use, or can you supply directions. Where can one find the evaporators? Mike --=======4B45C41=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:39:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: bee problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, My partner asked me to ask about a bee problem he is dealing with. He is in dispute with a vineyard owner. Seems the vineyard owner claims the bees have distroyed his grape crop. My partner explained the bees only came after birds have pecked holes in his grapes and do not cause the holes. The bee yard is *two miles* from the vineyard and fall honey plants are blooming so we wonder if the bees are really coming from his yard. The vineyard owner has said he is putting out poison honey today to stop the problem. Any suggestions on the problem? I suggested taking a book explaining that the bees come only after the grapes are leaking but my partner says the little Italian grower is fighting mad and he wants to let him cool down a bit before getting involved. Do bees chew holes in ripe grapes at times? We have never had a situation with a vineyard before and our bees have been close to many. Thanks in advance! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:38:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: bee problem In-Reply-To: <000c01c48f60$02b400c0$40bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello All, > My partner asked me to ask about a bee problem he is dealing with. He is in > dispute with a vineyard owner. > > The bee yard is *two miles* from the vineyard and fall honey plants are > blooming so we wonder if the bees are really coming from his yard. > Well, the first question I always have when people claim that "bees" are doing something, is whether they are actually honeybees or not. Did your partner go and see the bees himself? If he's just going by the word of the vineyard owner, I'd say there are excellent odds that the problem is really yellowjackets, which dearly love fruit juice and are quite capable of perforating the skin of grapes. The number of people I have seen "identify" yellowjackets as being honeybees is nothing short of astounding. They don't look much like bees to me, but most people are pretty vague on what a bee looks like. If they actually *are* honeybees, could he spare the time to try "beelining" a few of them to at least figure out what direction they are coming from? As far as the "putting out poisoned honey" threat by the vineyard owner, isn't that highly illegal? -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:41:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Shane Woodruff Subject: HFCS safe or not. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have a question about the safety of corn syrup. I read on the archives there are 2 ways of producing hfcs one using enzymes & the other using acid. The first is safe for feeding bees and the second is not. When I contacted my producer they told me they use and acid/enzyme conversion. They said they start with starch which they add an acid to it. Then add enzymes to it. Is this method of production safe to feed bees wintering in a northern state? Shane --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:44:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: bee problem In-Reply-To: <000c01c48f60$02b400c0$40bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The vineyard owner has said he is putting out poison honey today to stop > the > problem. Dont know anything about grapes but I would take this threat seriously and document any damage that might show up in the beeyard(dated pictures,bee samples with the bee inspector involved).If someone threatened to poison my bees and actually did so I would be collecting evidense for a lawsuit! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:46:54 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: bee problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Seems the vineyard owner claims the bees have distroyed his grape crop. My partner explained the bees only came after birds have pecked holes in his grapes and do not cause the holes. Does the vineyard owner protect the grapes from birds with plastic netting? The vineyards on Long Island do. I have 3 grape vines at the house where I keep bees. I see honey bees sometimes taking up juice from injured grape fruit BUT what stands out is hordes of feasting hornets, yellow jackets, flies and other insects. Squirels, raccoons (I'd find lots of empty grape skins on the ground in the morning), birds do most of the grape damage in my little 'vineyard' unless I put on plastic netting. And I do. Perhaps a large vineyard with a lot of bleeding fruit attracts lots of honey bees. I doubt very much honey bees jaws can break the tough grape skin. I have been bitten - and I don't mean stung - by honey bees when inspecting hives and the bees bite is on the weak side. I ignore it most of the time; the bite is not painful and does not leave a mark. I have not seen bumble bees on grapes but I read that bumble bees will sometimes bite the base of deep flowers to get access to nectar. Honey bees will use these bite holes to get the nectar. This is the case with false nettle and other deep-flowered plants. >>The vineyard owner has said he is putting out poison honey today to stop the problem. Is this legal?? He could be sued for killing someone's 'livestock.' >>Any suggestions on the problem? I'd check to see if honey bees are indeed on the grapes and, if they are and I had the time, I'd mark 100 or so bees with bright paint in the vineyard and then see if I see them at the hive entrances in my bee yard. Even show the bees in the bee yard to the grape owner. Even if the hives were moved several miles away, the vineyard owner would continue to have damaged grapes, in my opinion, as the primary root cause of damaged grapes would remain unaddressed. Honey bees merely share in the spoils... Good luck! Waldemar LI, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:14:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: bee problem In-Reply-To: <000c01c48f60$02b400c0$40bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-205A47C9; boundary="=======612437C=======" --=======612437C======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-205A47C9; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Do bees chew holes in ripe grapes at times? Bob I thought this was all talked about before...concerning peaches I thought. It was determined that yellow jackets were chewing the holes in the fruit, and the bees were coming behind. Would that info be in the archives? >The vineyard owner has said he is putting out poison honey today to stop the >problem. Bob I would think this a very different situation. He would be knowingly poisoning the bees, and may be liable for damages. I guess it would be difficult to prove damages by either party against the other. Too bad they can't just discuss the problem rationally. Mike > > > >Bob --=======612437C=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:56:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: bee problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim said: As far as the "putting out poisoned honey" threat by the vineyard owner, isn't that highly illegal? I doubt it. Even a pan with a inch of honey will trap thousands of bees. A northern beekeeper lost many bees to poison traps set by a beekeeper outside his honey house in Texas about three years ago. Seems my friend set his holding yard ( 900 hives) close ( quarter mile) to the other beekeepers honey house without knowing the honey house was in the area. When my friend drove up to the other beekeepers house looking for the source of the problem he saw traps filled with dead bees. The other beekeeper said robbing was bad at his location and was not sure where all the bees were coming from so set the traps. The Texas beekeeper said he was surprised bees were making the flight home to die as poison was in the honey. Dead bees at the front of hives showed the only clues a problem was going on. The issue was resolved without violence and the beekeepers actually became friends. The Northern beekeeper was told there were no other hives in the area which was true. The Southern beekeeper did not keep hives at his extracting location on purpose but did keep full supers of honey (which were cleaned out by the northern bees ) . . I was actually in Texas (with a load of bees) right after the problem happened and the northern beekeeper introduced me to the Texas beekeeper. They seemed like old lifetime friends. In fact the forklift of the northern beekeeper was being kept at the Texas beekeepers place for him to use while the northern beekeeper was back up north. No talk of the incident happened while at the meeting and I knew better than bring the subject up! I had to chuckle at the Texas beekeeper as the outside temperature was around 55F. and he acted like he was freezing to death. Heavy Coveralls , hooded sweatshirt and ear muffs while we were in short sleeve shirts. Thin blood I guess as we had left freezing in temps in the Midwest and snow and ice. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:04:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gerald Herrin Subject: Re: bee problem In-Reply-To: <000c01c48f60$02b400c0$40bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 1926 edition of "ABC and XYZ of Beekeeping" on pages 111-115 deals directly with complaints that honeybees were damaging crops, in particular grapes. In all cases, the bees were taking advantage of damage caused by birds. Cases are cited and studies recommended. Sound fruit will not be bothered by bees. The more things change, the more they remain the same. Gerald Herrin geraldherrin@earthlink.net "Tam saeva et infesta virtutibus tempora." Tacitus, Agricola I. On Aug 31, 2004, at 8:39 AM, Bob Harrison wrote: > Seems the vineyard owner claims the bees have distroyed his grape > crop. My > partner explained the bees only came after birds have pecked holes in > his > grapes and do not cause the holes. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:58:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: bee problem In-Reply-To: <000c01c48f60$02b400c0$40bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do bees chew holes in ripe grapes at times? I have watched (and photographed) a wasp or hornet (I'm never sure what the difference is) chewing up a raspberry, returning every 20 minutes or so for another load. Perhaps it is not honeybees at all? The grower should be informed that people who poison bees, even accidentally, are regularly ordered by the courts to pay for new bees. That might dampen his enthusiasm for that plan. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen http://WWW.BlessedBee.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:34:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: small hive beetles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7D6CEBB; boundary="=======3B886B07=======" --=======3B886B07======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7D6CEBB; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I found my first SHB about three weeks ago. Not found in this county until then. I knew they were close, as they have been two counties to the south for a few years. Today I found larvae in the hot room. Does anyone in the north have experience dealing with SHB? I have heard they aren't much of a problem in the hives here in the north, but can be devastating to supers of honey left in the hot room too long. What about the supers in my storage barn? I store my honey combs wet, with no PDB. I have very little wax moth problems there as it remains cool enough most of the year. Most years only brood combs need a little extra protection...in August and September. What about my brood combs and combs of honey stored in the same building as the supers. These have PDB. Mike --=======3B886B07=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:21:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: preacher Subject: Hive question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you guys treat your hives with anything before you paint them. And I have painted 10 new hives and went out this morning and they are molded. Any suggestions? preacher p.s. They were left on a trailer out in the sunshine, but we have had alot of rain lately. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::