From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:49:40 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A45249060 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKlh012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0409A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 159135 Lines: 3494 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 00:10:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Late late season and winter bees In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040831172604.00b8c718@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, Here in certain areas of south mid Manitoba, the spring rolled over into summer and stayed as spring with wet, damp, cloudy conditioned prevailing. The result being that Canola was planted in some areas 6 weeks behind normal timetable expectations. Sunflowers were planted after much debate and loss / benefit calculations. So, here we are with Canola still in flower - but with a very restricted harvest due to poor weather, and sunflowers that are or either just starting to flower. Nectar is continuing to arrive in the hives from the first, and if the weather is favourable, will start from the second. Being in a "Northern area" - bees colonies require to be prepared for winter! - understood. BUT, seeing as the flows are ongoing, supers in place, when does it become necessary to say STOP - remove the honey and start feeding for winter. Plus if V.d. treatment is required, again when does one halt honey production in favour of preparing for winter. The continuance of honey "production" is so tempting this year due to limited amounts so far secured. But, if continued after a certain date - potential losses will surely outweigh any kilos. in the barrel. Anybody else seen canola and sunflowers in bloom at the same time? Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 01:49:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: davidbrowder Subject: Re: Hive question MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Copper Naphta's the best. Soak em in it if ya got a big enough container. ----- Original Message ----- From: "preacher" To: > Do you guys treat your hives with anything before you paint them. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:33:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bob Harrison" wrote: > Unless you have got bees which can maintain a varroa load you ARE always > trying to kill varroa! There is a difference between 'kill' and attempt total annihilation. We know that if there is no virus present then colonies can live with very large numbers of varroa - I have seen reports of up to 12,500. Perhaps if we had bees that were not susceptible to the viruses then they would be able to tolerate much greater loads naturally. > In a breeding program in order to find varroa tolerant hives the best way is > to apply varroa pressure. Sadly only a couple of private beekeepers doing > research do so. There are very large numbers of beekeepers in Europe using various thymol based products that do not annihilate all the varroa and therefore apply varroa pressure. I am currently in the middle of treating with thymol crystals as I have done since 1997 - never used strips. > What did the beekeepers in India do to control the alleged outbreak of TBS > besides let the virus run its course. Only ten years to get control. perhaps > a change in vocation would be in order. Not alleged - this was TSB in A. cerana. They bred from the survivors, also introduced A. mellifera from Northern India and they keep the stingless bee, Trigona iridipennis (honey is 6 times the price of other honey). However, few beekeepers now keep mellifera because cerana is doing well - I have a figure of 18kg per colony this year. Given the size of cerana hives and their ease of handling, this looks a very attractive proposition! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:53:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Michael Palmer" asked about Apilife VAR: A recent (sorry, I no longer have it to hand) article in ABJ compared Apilife VAR, Apiguard and Thymovar. You may find some useful data there. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:55:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicato In-Reply-To: <002401c48fed$94e0d440$94ca87d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > There is a difference between 'kill' and attempt total annihilation. We > know that if there is no virus present then colonies can live with very > large numbers of varroa - I have seen reports of up to 12,500. Perhaps if > we had bees that were not susceptible to the viruses then they would be able > to tolerate much greater loads naturally. When you look at the size of the Varroa mite compared to the size of the host, I question the ability of a colony to sustain high mite loads. In comparison, it would be like carrying a tick the size of a volleyball on our back. Not sure I could tolerate that. I doubt my bees would last the winter here in Maine with high mite loads. Usually bees that live with the mites have low colony mite loads which means few bees are affected. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 08:08:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: randy.l.flaming@EXGATE.TEK.COM Subject: Re: Pesticide regulations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yum, yum, crow tastes soooo good. Since I was so convinced that I was correct about the impermissibility of using less than labeled amounts of a pesticide (and Bob was so certain that he was correct) I had to verify my information. What I found is that Bob is correct and I was wrong. So, first of all Bob, I apologize for my original statement and secondly I would like to thank you for correcting my misunderstanding. Now for a specific question. Why do you believe that varroa cannot develop resistance to thymol? If that statement is true, then thymol would definitely have one very positive trait that would make it highly desirable. I am definitely of the opinion that all pests can develop resistances to any pesticide unless there is generally a 100% kill from using the pesticide. That is probably more true in cases where we are using relatively "benign" pesticides because we are trying to kill something so "insect like" as a mite, while still not killing our bees. Make that two very positive traits - Api Life Var is listed for use on bees! Randy Flaming Oregon :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:49:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Angela Copi Subject: Re: bee problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I have no experience with honey bees and grapes, however, Frank pellet devotes a couple of pages to the subject in "American Honey Plants". To paraphrase from that source: If grapes are damaged by some other source, such as birds, wasps or skin splitting from too much moisture, and if there is a nectar dearth, honey bees may feed on grape juice and are capable of sucking the grapes dry. There really is no damage to the grape grower, since the grapes were already damaged and the bees then simply took advantage of the situation. There may be some damage to the beekeeper since bees do not overwinter well on grape juice. Keith Copi _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:26:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: josh jaros Subject: Re: Late late season and winter bees In-Reply-To: <413559BA.8040308@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter Dillon wrote: "BUT, seeing as the flows are ongoing, supers in place, when does it become necessary to say STOP - remove the honey and start feeding for winter. Plus if V.d. treatment is required, again when does one halt honey production in favour of preparing for winter." Hi Peter, I'm just south of you a little ways in Warroad, MN. I've been experiencing the same type of weather although our canola has already bloomed. I haven't seen any sunflower bloom although I know they were planted in the area. Perhaps they got plowed down. It's been a very depressing year with this being one of the two coldest summers in over a century. My average crop this year is 50lbs when I usually do 100-120 average. I was hoping that the weather would hold out and make up in August but nothing ever came of it. I decided two weeks ago to count my losses and prepare for wintering. I've noticed that the mites have done really well in my hives this year so I'm glad to get an early start on wintering preparations. I think that the weather has really drained the hives. Like you said, it's better to have hives next spring than to have another few pounds of honey. In the month of August my hives made absolutely no honey at all. Do you think yours will bring in any! amount in the next few days to make it worthwhile? Do the bees look healthy? What is your forecast for the next week? Just today the same warm spell that hit you has hit our area. I'm hoping this will cheer up the girls a little. I just don't know how longer this warm spell will last. Maybe you have great looking hives, then maybe you could go a couple weeks and catch that canola. Bees can sure bring in large amounts of canola honey if the weather is right. Hope this helps. Let me know how you fare. One last thought-soon the bees you'll have in your boxes all winter will be hatching. Will they be ready? Josh Jaros --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:24:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Bee Quick Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3D154B45; boundary="=======3177225=======" --=======3177225======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3D154B45; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recently bought a gallon of Bee Quick. I wanted to try it out, because it is supposed to work in cooler weather than Bee Go. The fact that I might not smell like a bum in the gutter was a plus, too. The other day, Bob H said something on Bee-L, about driving bees out the bottom of the hive for mite treatments...using Bee Quick. Bob, how can you drive bees out the bottom entrance with Bee Quick, when I can't even drive them out of the supers? I've used the product for two days. First day, I did two yards and removed about three tons. I used Bee Quick boards, and my helper used Bee Go boards. The top super cleared ok, with Bee Quick, but the subsequent three of four wouldn't clear of bees. They clustered in the corners, and against the sidewalls. The only way I could get them out was with my blower. I tried a small amount, and increased it a couple times. I tried leaving the boards on square, and slightly ajar, and turned sideways. Not much luck. My helper did 3/4 of the yard...now that IS a first. Today we did another two yards...same amount of honey, same results. The first yard took 4 hours. The Bee Go boards cleared 2/3 of the yard, but I was stuck blowing bees, because the Bee Quick wasn't working well. The second yard, I just said "ta hell with this" and used the Bee Go boards for the entire yard. We took off 3200 pounds in 1 1/2 hours. Both days were sunny, with temperatures in the 70s. The supers were capped, and not much drone brood was present. I think I did my best to give the product a fair test. I really wanted it to work, as we have cool weather coming, and Bee Go just won't work at all. Maybe when it is cooler I will find it is a little better for those conditions, but for now, I just can't spend the time just trying to smell nice :-) Or perhaps there is some trick?? Mike --=======3177225=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:18:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: josh jaros Subject: Re: Bee Quick In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040901200126.02d33210@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Michael Palmer wrote: "I recently bought a gallon of Bee Quick. I wanted to try it out, because it is supposed to work in cooler weather than Bee Go." Hi Michael, I use Bee Quick and have the same problem. I have never been able to get it to work in cold weather and wonder who told you or where you read that it works better in cold weather than Bee Go or Honeyrobber. I have never read nor heard that. I also ran a test with another beekeeper and we had the same results you did. Bee Quick does work well in warm conditions, although you have to wait a little longer. I also like to give a few puffs of smoke to get the bees moving first. You also have to give a few squirts of the stuff every once and a while because it seems to evaporate quicker than Bee Go. I still prefer Bee Quick but for the commercial operation where time and labour are important, it just isn't feasible. Mediums are preferred, while deeps seem to be a little too much. I only run mediums for supers so I don't have a problem. Josh Jaros --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:58:04 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Quick The correct address for questions about using Bee-Quick is bee-quick@bee-quick.com. This is BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu :) I'll address the details with you off list, but the big clue was that the first (topmost) super was easy for you to clear, but the subsequent (lower) supers were not. Lower supers are exposed to fumes when the uppermost super is being cleared, and then are exposed to yet more fumes when they become the topmost super. The lower supers were exposed to too much Bee-Quick. Use too much, and the bees are gasping for oxygen, and move only as far as they must to get some air to breathe. Bees in the corners and against sidewalls are classic problems for experienced Bee-Go users, who have been taught to spray a stream of liquid in and "X" or a "Z" on the fume board. (This is really "too much" Bee-Go or Honey-Robber in my view, but the folks who sell these products apparently want to encourage you to use more.) That's why we toss in bottles with pump-spray caps along with every gallon jug. We want you to use less, which is why we say "use less" so many times in the instructions. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:26:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bee Quick In-Reply-To: <00a501c49098$ab0c1120$7604c518@gollum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-31272CD4; boundary="=======54085AC9=======" --=======54085AC9======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-31272CD4; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >Use too much, and the bees are gasping for oxygen > We want you to use less, which is >why we say "use less" so many times in the instructions. > > jim I bought my Bee Quick from B.B., and there were no instructions included. That's why I wrote here, to ask others more familiar with the product than I. I'll try again, using just a little bit. Mike --=======54085AC9=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:40:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Late late season and winter bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Late late season and winter bees I am not in Canada but have got the same problem. . >Sunflowers were planted after much debate and loss / benefit calculations. Cultivated sunflowers in our area bloom for around two weeks. I have been moving yards into sunflowers all week. Will pick up those bees and move on to later sunflower plantings in about two weeks. I have also moved bees into wildflower locations. None of the hives used will be treated this fall. All are varroa tolerant or made up this spring for the above use. All tested for varroa load. >Being in a "Northern area" - bees colonies require to be prepared for winter! - understood. BUT, seeing as the flows are ongoing, supers in place, when does it become necessary to say STOP - remove the honey and start feeding for winter. Plus if V.d. treatment is required, again when does one halt honey production in favour of preparing for winter. George I. says August and he is in a northern climate. Late Sept. is pushing things for my area as I have seen years when cold comes early and winter stays late. Of course the migratory beekeeper has the option of trucking bees south if extra time is needed to finnish meds. >The continuance of honey "production" is so tempting this year due to limited amounts so far secured. But, if continued after a certain date - potential losses will surely outweigh any kilos. in the barrel. Take a chance with a percent but all your bees! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:41:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pesticide regulations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy said: What I found is that Bob is correct and I was wrong. Bee-L is for exchanging information and ideas. Had I not corrected you many other beekeepers on BEE-L would have. The subject has been discussed on BEE-L before. I have used the using less pesticide myself as a small orchard grower years before varroa arrived. I found I could cut many pesticdes by as much as half and treat far less times than the chemical companies recommended and still get perfect fruit. You do take a risk of getting a worm in your apples or I should say your customers do but people concerned with buying an apple which has been sprayed less times will take the risk! Only a small percent of organic apples are perfect. Around 5% my friend Michael Phillips says in his book on growing organic apples. Raandy asks: Why do you believe that varroa cannot develop resistance to thymol? Varroa might at some point develop a resistance to thymol & formic acid but to date no resistance as shown up and both have been used in killing varroa mites on bees for many years. Both are not as effective as the top selling chemical strips (98% varroa kill before resistance) despite what you might hear as BOTH are temperature and humidity dependent and will provide less control when temperatures go above or below the ideal. I have seen chemical strips placed directly in the cluster in below freezing weather and still provide control. However chemical resistance has put many a large beekeeper out of business. They treat without a follow up test or in todays situation treat with a strip , find out the strip did not work and then all the options left is a temp dependant product and cold weather is already upon the beekeeper. The migratory beekeeper can relocate south to "lick his wounds" and rebuild but the beekeeper on permanant locations is simply going to be picking up huge numbers of dead hives in spring. Raandy said: If that statement is true, then thymol would definitely have one very positive trait that would make it highly desirable. I have recommended Api Life Var to beekeepers but very few large beekeepers are willing to use the product for reasons the hobby beekeeper does not care about such as having to make three trips in application and follow up testing. Randy said: I am definitely of the opinion that all pests can develop resistances to any pesticide unless there is generally a 100% kill from using the pesticide. Very true and the reason alternating with another product is the best way to slow resistance. However I am told (USDA bee labs) miss use of a certain illegal product has created a super resistant varroa which when in your hives can not be killed when you try to rotate back to the past chemicals used aginst varroa. A few large beekeepers tried a product (which I will not name) to control varroa illegally. The coumaphos level was too low to ever provide a decent control and only a slap in the face to varroa. Now these varroa are being spread through out the world (heard the bad news first from Bob on BEE-L) As the super varroa spread (like varroa did when first arrived in areas of the world) resistance to the chemical strips used in Europe and other countries will happen and many beekeepers will be caught off guard. Randy said: That is probably more true in cases where we are using relatively "benign" pesticides because we are trying to kill something so "insect like" as a mite, while still not killing our bees. finding a product which will kill the blood sucking arachnids (varroa) without killing bees is a problem. In nature the worst enemies of spiders are other spiders. Would be wonderful if varroa could be taught to feed on other varroa! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:16:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Quite a few Hives for Sale in Alberta MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With honey prices backing down off the peak, I've noticed that there are quite a few hives for sale in Alberta this Fall. Possibly some beekeepers overexpanded or overspent. Maybe some got rich, or are just getting old and tired. I have also heard that there seems to be a shortage in some parts of the USA. I don't know about the current legality of importing hives to the US, since there was talk of changing the US import regulations some time back, but it seems to me that this may be an opportunity for US buyers, since the hives up here tend to be strong and well-fed in Fall, and may go cheap. I know that, years back, I sold both package bees and hives into Arizona, and that there was no problem getting necessary approvals at that time. Anyone interested should do his/her homework, then, if it seems worthwhile, contact the provincial organisations in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba for details soon. See http://honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=905 . Some sales are coming up within weeks. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:37:54 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Quick This is a little long, but Ruary Rudd contacted me off the list, and suggested that a full explanation on the list would not be all that boring, and might be a valuable reference for someone. Brace yourself, here comes the science... Given that both Mike and Josh had a problem at cooler temperatures, but at least Josh had no problem at warmer temperatures, we may be seeing the result of the difference in spray applicators, and hence amount of liquid used. As I said in my prior message in this thread, using too much of any repellent can "stun" bees. They won't move because they are gasping for air. If there is too much liquid used, the fumes will force a surprising amount of air out, and bees will sit still and "keep rebooting" until they have enough air to support movement. While this is "easy" to do in warmer weather, it is much harder to do with fume boards in cooler weather. (One can still do this if using breeze boards, regardless of ambient temperature, as breeze boards kick serious butt, which is why the really big boys in the plains states have used them for years.) So the answer may be that one was using "enough" butyric, but not "enough" Bee-Quick for the conditions at hand. "Bee-Go", "Honey Robber", and all the other brands of Butyric Anhydride come with "Yorker" pointed spout tops. The minimal butyric "dose" one can apply with the most gentle of squeezing actions is about 5 cc. A typical beekeeper painting an "X" or a "Z" of butyric on a fume board can use as much as a full ounce of liquid without really noticing just how much is being used/wasted. In contrast, the fingertip pump-sprayers used on bottles of Bee-Quick deliver 0.5 cc per pump. To get equal amounts of each liquid on a pair of fume boards will take quite a few pumps of the sprayer, and will take much longer with the Bee-Quick. This is by design. It should be clear that in cooler weather and/or in cases where there is brood in the supers, one may need to use more Bee-Quick than one might use in hotter weather. (In fact, one needs more butyric too, but one is likely using the same "overkill" amount every time one picks up a bottle of butyric due to their primitive el-cheapo dispenser, so one does not notice the waste when it is hot.) So, while the butyric is getting credit for being "better" at colder temperatures, this may be due to the consistent use of far more butyric than would be prudent when it is warmer. If you're human - and studies show that one third of you may be - none of this is your fault. It simply is difficult to design something that works "perfectly" in all cases under all conditions for all beekeepers, and I had to make choices about how "powerful" a formulation was prudent. If one were to set up an actual test, and measure how much butyric one was using (perhaps with the same pump-sprayers for each), one would likely find that the limiting factor was the combination of ambient temperature and solar radiation rather than the choice of repellent. This is because we have adjusted the formulation of Bee-Quick to roughly equal butyric when each are "used as directed". Bottom line, it is hard to know from an armchair, one has to "be there" to know for sure. Maybe we should make a video... The other question raised was how Bob Harrison expected to drive colonies out the entrance. The early formulations of Bee-Quick had a habit of driving entire colonies right out the hive entrance, not a good thing when all you wanted to do was harvest a few supers. Bob Harrison's approach to using SOE allows us to consider marketing these far too powerful (rejected) formulations as "Bee-Quick Turbo" and "Bee-Quick Nitro" for his application and (if we can work out the product liability issues) for driving feral colonies out of wall cavities and such. We can all the way up to "Weapons Grade" Bee-Quick if we have to. Its just chemistry, after all. It may well be that beekeepers in more northern locations and harvest in fall might want to use "Turbo" or even "Nitro" rather than standard Bee-Quick. If we market one or both, I'm not taking any responsibility for bees being driven out the entrance when using either to harvest honey, but I'm not going to question the abilities or skills of people like Mike Palmer, who works more colonies every week than I would ever want to. :) Maybe we put an eyedropper in the "Turbo" and "Nitro" bottles to get people in the correct mindset... jim (Living in New York during the Republican convention is said to be fun, if by "fun" one means "living under martial law that might become a live ammo paintball game.") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:27:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bee Repellants to clear Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In response to Mike Palmer's queries about Bee Quick James Fischer wrote: > The correct address for questions about using > Bee-Quick is bee-quick@bee-quick.com. > > This is BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu :) Aw, c'mon Jim, I thought Mike's question was legit and was looking forward to the response. BEE-L is PRECISELY the place for that sort of discussion. Having never used bee repellants of any kind I was looking forward to a lesson, not a redirection. I'm glad Mike is a seasoned poster and won't be driven away by a sniping response. I've stated I'm a proponent of Canadian/Triangular escape boards, but I must admit that there are times the bees don't exit supers via escape boards for no apparent reason (I know are the usual suspects: brood in the supers, poor weather, etc.), but there are times, albeit rare, when the conditions are PERFECT for escape boards, but they just don't work and I can only attribute it to "quirky bees in that hive." So I was looking forward to a discussion about bee repellants in general, and Bee Quick specifically. I was disappointed to have the query chastised and redirected. Generally I avoid Bee Go due to the smell. Heck, the bees go right along with anything with a sense of smell! If I won't have it near me, I won't put it in my hives. At least the first part of that equation is not a concern with Bee Quick, I don't object to an open bottle. I still haven't used it in my hives. I kind of liked the smell of benzaldehyde, and may have considered its use, but EPA has removed that option. Anyway, I would benefit from a discussion of bee repellants to clear honey supers. Not just Bee Quick specifically, pros and cons of all on the market would help. How do they work? I always assumed it was merely the offensive smell that drove bees away, but now I wonder if there is oxygen deprivation at play, or is that just in some brands? And I'm very interested in Bob's experiments with Bee Quick and Sucracide. Can you tell us more Bob? In my ignorance I am not sure if the manufactures of Bee Go and Honey Robber participate on BEE-L. If not, perhaps someone may know them and solicit their input. I am truly ignorant of all the fume board options, never went there, never cared to. I know they can be far easier than my escape board method, and my hive numbers have grown sufficiently that I may perhaps reconsider my options. Aaron Morris - thinking there may be a better way! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:56:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Late season & winter bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It's been a very depressing year with this being one of the two coldest > summers in over a century. > Here in the UK the summer has been very much wetter than usual although > hours of sunshine have been about average. However the temperature this summer > has been about 2C higher than normal. The grain harvest has been rotting in > the fields and the fine weather the last few days has seen farmers/contractors > working round the clock. > > Interestingly my honey harvest has been much above average. > > Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:01:39 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: small hive beetles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As you did not seem to get any replies from your compatriots, I thought I might be able to pass on some information which is universal. >Does anyone in the north have experience dealing with SHB? I have heard >they aren't much of a problem in the hives here in the north, but can be >devastating to supers of honey left in the hot room too long. Dr. Jamie Ellis told us that the SHB can lay eggs that hatch at about 24 hours and so within a couple of days you can get a large number of SHB larvae ruining your stored honey. Best to extract as soon as possible. If this is not possible, the options are to store in a cold room or you might like to look up some research on humidity within your storage area. There is research by either Jeff Pettis or Mike Hood, from memory, on this humidity bit and it showed that under 50% the eggs will not hatch. >What about the supers in my storage barn? I store my honey combs wet, with >no PDB. I have very little wax moth problems there as it remains cool >enough most of the year. Most years only brood combs need a little extra >protection...in August and September. >From all accounts, the storage is the worst. With combs with some pollen in, they are very attractive to the SHB. Here in Australia, most beekeepers are going towards refrigerated shipping containers that they store the comb in and run the unit at minus temperatures. This also fixes wax moth. There is research being conducted in Australia at the present time on the question of temperature and time relationship to kill all stages of SHB. When it is published, I will post it. Again the humidity way could be a possibility but I would check it out very carefully. >What about my brood combs and combs of honey stored in the same building as >the supers. These have PDB. Again, research is being done in Australia looking at PDB from a dose rate. There is antecdotal evidence that PDB will kill SHB. Also there is anecdotal evidence that phospine gas will also kill SHB and this is also being researched. However for the long term I would be wondering if these two methods will remain legal. The refrigerated shipping container or cold room would be the best long term solution IMHO. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:20:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Bee Repellants to clear Supers In-Reply-To: <63D883CB0A1B204EB053673DD882CB539338B6@email.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-54DA4710; boundary="=======51C1580D=======" --=======51C1580D======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-54DA4710; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I kind of liked the smell of benzaldehyde, and >may have considered its use, but EPA has removed that option. > Aaron Morris As they should have. I used Benzaldehyde for many years. It worked fine in warm sunny weather, and smelled like almonds...very similar to Bee Quick. It didn't work at all in cold weather. The biggest problem with it was crystallization on the fume board. After a few weeks of use, little stalactites of Benzaldehyde crystals would form on the pad. These would inevitably get broken off, and fall into the super of honey. Not good. Mike > --=======51C1580D=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:36:37 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Repellants to clear Supers > Aw, c'mon Jim... How many smilies must I use to avoid a beating? :) Perhaps you'd prefer the much more kewl, modern, and horizontal type of smilie, like this ^.^ > So I was looking forward to a discussion about bee > repellants in general, and Bee Quick specifically. For "Bee-Quick specific", see the other thread. It may likely be more than you wanted to know, which is why I did not want to write so much last night. It was late, I was tired. For "repellents in general", all I can do is try to address them now. > I've stated I'm a proponent of Canadian/Triangular escape boards, My bees appear to be smarter than Canadian bees - they rarely "obey" such escape boards unless it is cold enough to force an afternoon clustering, which makes escape boards superfluous. I got to the point where I was duct taping everything in sight thinking that the bees were getting back in through tiny cracks. It took a laptop and "web cam" to prove that the bees were waltzing right back in through the triangle escape. That said, I've never seen a bee sneak back through a cone - they just can't bend while on the outside of the cone to get their heads in the hole. > I must admit that there are times the bees don't exit supers via > escape boards for no apparent reason... there are times, albeit rare, > when the conditions are PERFECT for escape boards, but they just don't > work and I can only attribute it to "quirky bees in that hive." I also wish I knew. I don't. I must admit that I gave up years ago on escape boards, so I haven't tried recently. > Generally I avoid Bee Go due to the smell. > I kind of liked the smell of benzaldehyde, and > may have considered its use, but EPA has removed that option. The EPA also removed the option of using butyric anhydride back in 1998, not that anyone selling it wants to admit it. Without an EPA tolerance (or an "exemption from the requirement for a tolerance", which is what beekeepers had for butyric anhydride in honey), one falls back to FDA regulations, and the FDA's list of things that are "Generally Recognized As Safe" in food ("GRAS"). Butyric anhydride is not on that list, nor is it permitted in any aspect of food contact, food handling, etc. So what part of "No Food Use" is unclear to those who continue to expose food for human consumption (honey) to butyric? :) The "good news" for beekeepers is that there is no EPA or FDA enforcement to speak of under the current administration - the EPA is too busy trying to justify drilling for oil in designated wilderness areas, and trying to pretend that the "Clean Air Act" still means something. The FDA is overloaded with reviewing the claims of drug ads, all which tell you to "ask your doctor". > Anyway, I would benefit from a discussion of bee repellants to clear honey > supers. How do they work? I always assumed it was merely the offensive > smell that drove bees away, At risk of invoking the wrath of PETA, it would be accurate to describe all bee repellents as "tear gas for bees". They are mostly an irritant, and the bees simply don't like it one little bit. In the case of butyric, the odor that is so repellent to humans may or may not be perceived as "disgusting" to bees - even honey houses that reek of butyric will still have bees buzzing about the screened windows, so bees appear to be able to somehow smell the honey and wax, where humans might only smell the butyric. > but now I wonder if there is oxygen deprivation at play, or is that just > in some brands? Butyric poses a serious risk in this area for some beekeepers, and the label warns humans about both "respiratory depression" and "circulatory shock", so like humans, bees can be affected by oxygen deprivation if one is using too much butyric. I've never heard of anyone killing bees outright with any repellent, but I have heard from several beekeepers who reported being more than a little "short of breath" when exposed to even minor amounts of butyric. We had some fun explaining the technical terms used on the butyric warning labels in an ad we ran a few years ago: DANGER - These are the minimum warnings required by law. CORROSIVE - It eats through skin, clothes, and lots more. EYE DAMAGE - It can blind you. SKIN IRRITATION - Yes, it is irritating when your skin burns off. WEAR GOGGLES - Under, or on top of the bee veil? RUBBER GLOVES - Just like workers at the toxic waste facility. HARMFUL OR FATAL IF SWALLOWED - Its a deadly poison. AVOID CONTAMINATION OF FOOD - It can poison your honey. IMMEDIATELY FLUSH EYES - It could blind you. CALL PHYSICIAN IMMEDIATELY - Physician? Immediately? Call 911. MUCOSAL DAMAGE - It will burn soft tissues. GASTRIC LAVAGE - Stomach pumping. CIRCULATORY SHOCK - It stops your cells from getting oxygen. RESPIRATORY DEPRESSION - You can't breathe, either. CONVULSION - And you might thrash uncontrollably on the floor. KEEP OUT OF LAKES - It kills lots of things that live in water. DO NOT CONTAMINATE WATER - It contaminates the groundwater. DO NOT REUSE CONTAINER - Even tiny trace amounts are dangerous. DESTROY WHEN EMPTY - How? Launch it into the sun? Bee-Quick can "stun" bees if too much is used, and we THINK it is due to a lack of sufficient oxygen, but its hard to take any readings on the metabolic processes in a bee, let alone real-time ones. (Don't think we haven't tried...) > And I'm very interested in Bob's experiments with Bee Quick and Sucracide. > Can you tell us more Bob? In my ignorance I am not sure if the manufactures > of Bee Go and Honey Robber participate on BEE-L. The makers of "Bee-Go" are not even beekeepers. Mann Lake ("Honey Robber") might subscribe, and if they do, perhaps they will say hello. jim ("Healthy Forests" is a name for a bill that clear cuts forests. It should has been named "Leave No Tree Behind".) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 19:50:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Late season & winter bees In-Reply-To: <9f.4c67798a.2e68e2f5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-A87C6B; boundary="=======682447BF=======" --=======682447BF======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-A87C6B; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > in the UK the summer has been very much wetter than usual However the > temperature this summer has been about 2C higher than normal. >Interestingly my honey harvest has been much above average. >Chris I find warmth and moistness to be perfect for honey... Mike --=======682447BF=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:07:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bee Repellants to clear Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron asks: And I'm very interested in Bob's experiments with Bee Quick and Sucracide. Can you tell us more Bob? I was asked by Jerry Hayes before he left Dadant to expierment with Sucracide application. I do these things for the betterment of beekeeping and not for pay although the products for testing are shipped to me free of charge. I always provide honest evaluations so maker beware when asking me to test a product. I believe both Bee Quick & sucracide useful tools for the beekeeper due to their being safe for the beekeeper and honey. I would ask for improvements in the way they work or are used rather than saying the above products do not work. Both products do work but have got limitations (as do acid boards) and beekeepers need to understand those limitations. Reason I approached Jim to use the formula which was dropped because of running bees out the entrance. Running all the bees out of the hive (yes queen included) onto a special board is the idea. Then wetting the bees down instead of removing each frame a frame at a time. We have done testing with acid boards with success but feel we need a safer product to use and Jim concented to work with us. The first application would come when the last super was removed in fall. Simply leave the fume board on the hive after the queen excluder is removed until all bees have left the hive and treat. many of the bees will allready be out the entrance anyway. I plan to write about my trials . One very important use we have found has been in using SOE to drop varroa load on hives in honey production instead of pulling supers and treating. We have tried several methods All with success in what we were trying to accomplish.. Aaron asks: In my ignorance I am not sure if the manufactures of Bee Go and Honey Robber participate on BEE-L. I doubt the makers will respond as they are very secretive about their products. My own opinion is the products can be used without problem with common sense but as Jim points out beekeepers tend to keep pouring those products on in colder temp use and ends up getting in honey. I have walked in many a beekeepers honey house days after the honey was pulled and still smell the acid. When the correct amount is used you will (in my opinion) smell a slight smell the evening after the supers are brought in but the smell is gone the next day. I would prefer to use Bee Quick and am working with Jim to get the system down . Quite a bit of Bee Quick has been sold by bee supply houses *without* giving the buyer the information sheet which has been a on going problem. We use bee blowers in cooler weather rather than risk getting acid contamination in the honey. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:33:24 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Repellants to clear Supers > Quite a bit of Bee Quick has been sold by bee supply houses *without* > giving the buyer the information sheet which has been a on going problem This is discouraging news. I honestly thought that we had fixed this problem with our unique (patent-pending) "2x4 upside the head" approach, as we haven't gotten any e-mails from beekeepers requesting instruction sheets in 2004, but shipped slightly more product to dealers than in 2003. Printing the instructions on the back of the label would require that we include a magnifying glass with every bottle to read the tiny print. We even put labels on the inside flaps of our cases reminding our dealers that each customer gets a bottle, a sprayer, and an instruction sheet. It is impossible to remove a bottle from a case without seeing this "sign". While we are gladdened by what must be the very progressive policies towards hiring the handicapped of all the bee supply dealers, we do wish that they would move the mentally handicapped employees out of the order fulfillment department. :) > I doubt the makers [of Bee-Quick and Honey Robber] will > respond as they are very secretive about their products. I'm not sure what secrets they think they are keeping from anyone, but anyone in any business who won't make it easy for customers to reach them and respond promptly to customer inquires needs to wake up and check which century this is. jim (fermez la Bush!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:51:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Re: Small cell size In-Reply-To: <200408281755.i7SHtnE6019890@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dennis, How do the starter strips from your mold (http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/start.htm compare to starter strips of foundation (small or large cell foundation)? Also, do the bees do well staying on the starter strip from the poured mold? I have noticed that the bees tend to curve a bit with the wooden starter strips and Marty Hardison recommends the topbar length of 16 1/2 to decrease the parabolic effect of the bees drawing the comb. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:34:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Late late season and winter bees In-Reply-To: <20040901232634.10602.qmail@web60002.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Josh, Bob, Thanks for the comments. Today was the second time this summer that the temperature reached 30 degrees Celsius! - with a few fairly warm days to follow. Colonies have had 3 supers on since the beginning of the canola bloom started (6 weeks ago) - and several managed to fill upto 15 frames equivalent. I am clearing these boxes to extract the honey, which inevitably is starting to crystallize due to period of time in place (little bee activity and poor weather conditions. To replace with extracted boxes is quite a chore - the bees are so numerous that the empty box under the clearer board being used are generally 2/3 full of bees (value approx.). Whilst placing the extracted box, the bees overflow the sides by the hundreds - result = inevitable crushing of bees. Brushing to clear is ineffective. These are the bees on top of the queen excluder - the others clustering/ hanging in the box are dumped in front of the hive entrance. To limit apiary disturbance - this placing of replacement boxes is being done just before nightfall (not expecting robbing to set in - but I am not giving the opportunity nor taking the chance with such powerful colonies). This season I took the decision to treat V.d with Formic acid fumes. The reasons for this were: Provincial apiarist for Manitoba indicating that resistant varroa were present in the areas adjoining my locality. Having no experience with acarine - this treatment would treat those mites at the same time (allowing me to settle into Canadian beekeeping methodology without too many pressures at the same time). It would require me to start on a program tracking the population growth of mites in my colonies - allowing for data to be collected and used in a control program. A clear cut nectar flow was normal in the area - one finishing before diminishing temperatures became a problem. What happens - extended nectar flow in place, with powerful colonies to be treated with an approaching temp. deadline. One can see the pull / attractiveness of the strip treatment mentality. PS. Interesting points made regarding Aster honey and winter survival. Sunflowers being the last major flow in my area whilst in France, were used to fill brood boxes for winter feed. Aster and Sunflowers both belong to the Compositae. Had no problem from sunflower honey, there again, spring started in early March!!!! Again thanks, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:20:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: EF Phillips rare book digitization effort Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I wanted to appraise you on the progress of the digitization effort and an let you know of an exciting opportunity for beekeepers. Let me give you a bit of history! As you may or may not know, EF Phillips came to Cornell from the USDA in Washington D.C. He immediately realized that there was no repository of relevant literature available on beekeeping for scientists or beekeepers and he had no money to start a library. He turned to the beekeepers of the era with a unique proposition. He asked that they set aside one hive and donate the profits from it to help develop an inclusive library for which all beekeepers could benefit. The effort was an incredible success providing an endowment for the acquisition of important works by contemporary beekeepers. At the time, early 1920's, it was a huge endowment for the library system promising to fulfill Phillips's goal of collecting the most inclusive works of the time for any and all beekeepers. As the money flowed Phillips bought important works, often through the help of industry contacts. Ironically, after Phillips death, it became apparent that many of these books were one of a kind and extremely valuable from an historic perspective. The most valuable were moved to a protective area with air conditioning, behind locks & sophisticated alarm system.--the vault. Now beekeepers can make an appointment to visit the vault and with the assistance of a curator you can look but don't touch these books a trained curator with white gloves will do it for you! Because of our current effort you can now turn on your computer, turn your browser to http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ and see the first 10 of 91 books proposed to be mounted for anyone anywhere to view on-line. Phillips would be pleased that finally the internet has arrived to help make his dream of getting these works to beekeepers a reality. EAS started the effort with a matching challenge which resulted in the digitization of the initial 10 of the most important works of American beekeeping. Now I'm pleased to announce that the Tampa Bay Beekeeping Association (TBBA) is also joining to help make more, of the 91 volumes selected to digitize, available on-line by offering a similar challenge. http://www.ppru.cornell.edu/ftp/Newchallenge.pdf Once again beekeepers are needed to help make this a reality. If we can match the funds that the TBBA we would have enough money to prepare another 10-15 volumes, which would more than double the volumes available to all beekeepers worldwide. This project has a win, win, win outcome. The books are preserved through digitization, are made available to the audience for which they were collected and this is a tax exempt donation that may be used as such. More links to see what & why we are doing this!! http://bees.library.cornell.edu/b/bees/about.html http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/04/6.17.04/Chronicle.pdf You can either contact the library or myself if you would like further information!! Mike Griggs Entomologist/ Support Scientist Plant Protection Research Unit USDA ARS, U.S. Plant, Soil & Nutrition Lab. Tower Road, Ithaca, NY 14853 http://www.ppru.cornell.edu/PPRU.htm phone: 607-255-1085 fax: 607-255-1132 email: mhg3@cornell.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:51:31 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd, Xerces Society" Subject: Honey bee protection? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, The following request has just been posted on another list: "I am looking= for the federal law designating honeybees as a protected species. A web= location that has the text will suffice." I don't know of any federal law other than the pesticide labeling that= might protect honey bees. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, Matthew ________________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd Director, Pollinator Conservation Program The Xerces Society for Invertebrate Conservation 4828 SE Hawthorne Boulevard, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org Web: www.xerces.org ________________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:05:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Hegerberg Subject: Terra Patties I started beekeeping this spring with 5 packages on 5 new hives. One of the things I did was to install Terra Patties, but the bees didn't seem to touch them, and they were eventually removed. We're finished here for the year now, I am feeding, and I installed Terra Patties again last week. The bees don't seem interested in the Patties now either. Has anyone else had a similar experience with bees not accepting the Patties, and should I be worried about this or should I try using TM powder on the frames to see if they will eat the powder? And what is the recommended amount of powder to sprinkle on the frames? Thanks :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:36:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Honey bee protection? Comments: To: mdshepherd@xerces.org In-Reply-To: <200409031051310451.00C0D3B7@spineless.xerces.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:51 PM 9/3/2004, Matthew Shepherd, Xerces Society wrote: >I don't know of any federal law other than the pesticide labeling that >might protect honey bees. Does anyone have any suggestions? I've searched before to find a law or at least a reference to one to prove or disprove the myth that it is illegal to kill bees for any reason (as sometimes quoted by exterminators not wanting to handle them and others wanting to protect them at all costs). I pretty much didn't find any laws specifically protecting bees other than label laws. But I did find plenty of information how to kill bees when necessary in documents from many state and even the US department of agriculture, usually with the disclaimer that it's against federal law to kill foraging bees from managed hives (which I think really goes back to the label laws) or that the bees may only be killed with the owners permission (except by the state inspector). Not quite what you are looking for, but perhaps contacting the author of the documents might help point you in the right direction. I do have the links to several sites if you want them. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:04:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Bee repellant to clear feral hives? In-Reply-To: <000201c49153$7de9bd80$41bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The discussion about Bob's experiments with the dropped Bee Quick formula and Sucracide made me wonder if the dropped formula could be used to clear a feral hive in a tree? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:14:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee Quick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But how does one get rid of the stench of almond essence? Chris > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:23:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee Repellants to clear Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The only time I ever entered honey in a show it had been cleared with Bee Go. It got first prize. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:19:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Late late season and winter bees Hey Neighbour, It has been a very challenging beekeeping year for me, as everyone else here. Cool damp weather is terible to build bees in. Got my hives into the first canola/clover flow a bit under strenght mid June. Since then I have been able to pull twice and thinkin again to finnish this next week. With the honey I see in the hives now, I think things will come out to be around 150lbs/hive. Not to bad considering the uncooperative weather. I too have been debating (driving the wife crazy) about leaving my supers on for another week to gather the last of the canola nad newly flowered sunflowers. But decided to stick to the game plan and finish up next weekend. Perhaps the remaining nectar will decrease my fall feed needs. How has you r swarming been this year? I have had the worst swarming that I have ever encountered. Too stronge, and too little foraging weather. I also used formic this spring. would be interested in talking to you about it. Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 07:59:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Late season & winter bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Michael Palmer" wrote: > I find warmth and moistness to be perfect for honey... Moistness and monsoon may start with the same letter, but there the similarity ends! Here in the Midlands we had a good spring crop, despite incredibly heavy swarming, but since beginning of July it has been either wet, windy or cold - we had the coldest July day ever recorded. Rainfall for August is 2.5 times the average. Except in a few locations, notably where there was borage, colonies have gone backwards since the end of June. Now we have an absolute plague of wasps - I have never seen so many - destroying numerous colonies. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 08:21:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee Repellants to clear Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I believe both Bee Quick & sucracide useful tools for the beekeeper > due to their being safe for the beekeeper and honey. That may well be true, and, if so, this technique could turn out to be very useful. What I wonder is whether the products mentioned are approved for use in this fashion in various jurisdictions? Or will be? Seems to me that sucracide is approved in the US for use as labelled, and this seems to be reasonably close to the label. Moreover, SOE is known to be almost completely safe for the operator and unlikely to contaminate honey. On the other hand, I am not as sure about Bee Quick. Is it approved for use in bee hives? In the USA? Elsewhere? Last I heard from our co-op was that we are not to use BeeQuick or be at risk of having our honey rejected, and that butyric anhydride is the only chemical permitted for honey removal use in Canada. Maybe that has changed? The whole question of approvals for materials to be used in beehives is a tough one. Apparently no approval is required for wood or nails and wire, although our CFIA will not permit wood in contact with honey in an extracting establishment. Sugar and HFCS are apparently not questioned by authorities, unless they appear in the extracted honey. Beekeepers seem able to feed BeePro and soy and yeast without challenge. Beyond that, it seems to me that we are in a grey area that is subject to the whims and ad hoc judgements of various inspection and enforcement agencies. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:02:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small cell size Hi Tom and Everyone, I have one difficult top bar hive where the bees just can't get comb building straight :>) No matter how much trimming, switching, etc. I do, only a couple of combs are straight enough to stay on one top bar. After that the bees usually attach the comb to two or more top bars. I put some top bars with the fast starter strips directly behind the broodnest where the comb was crossing the top bars. The bees, which to their comb building along the new starter strips. I am happy with the results, but it has been a small test. So far, I like them better than any method I've used. They are simple, fast and easy to make. They are much stronger and more durable than regular starter strips. An easy hive will build straight comb on a wax filled kerf. But some bees are more stubborn than others. I think the thicker, shorter cross section in these strips are more attractive to those bees than the typical thinner, longer strips which were easily ignored by even the easy bees in my top bar hives. See the photo about half way down the page at: http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/combh.htm Curved comb is the natural shape the bees choose when given the chance. The Florida Yahoo beekeeping group has some interesting photos of a feral hive which clearly show the curved comb and the overall colony structure. Maybe the new starter strips or shorter top bars will provide a solution. Another interesting approach might be to cast or imprint 'horizontal' foundation along the bottom edge of a top bar. It's neither simple nor a new idea, but I can't find any report on its effectiveness. Best Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:54:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to all, I am in the midst of mite treatments. If a hive drops 244 mites in 24 hours, then drops 78 in the next 24 hours. Is this a typical response? Thomas Martin Shippensburg, Pa :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 14:45:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am in the midst of mite treatments. If a hive drops 244 mites in > 24 hours, then drops 78 in the next 24 hours. Is this a typical > response? Yes, it is. You don't say what treatment you are using, and that will affect what we expect. Apistan and Checkmite+ or other highly effective treaments will kill most of the phoretic mites over the first few days, then the drop will taper off, and come from either any partially resistant mites, new invaders, or young mites emerging with young bees from brood. It would be interesting to know what your alcohol wash, ether roll, or natural drop tests yielded before treatment. Testing before and after treatment helps understand what is happening during treatment. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 03:49:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Small cell size In-Reply-To: <200408271632.i7RFjcVO003588@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > It's interesting to note that the same error is made > by both large and small > cell proponents. [...] > Yet, both camps are stuck on a single cell size and > fail to see the > importance of the broodnest structure. Sticking to a > single size has > negative consequences whether large or small sized > foundations are used. It > just doesn't match what the bee do when left to > themselves. I appreciated your observations too. I have a look to your web site times to times. I may give you a reference that support your point. It seems this debate is old and has been discussed for long in the beekeepers community. I read recently some very interesting things in "Traité de Biologie de l'Abeille" of Rémy Chauvin. In this book (written in the 60's), R. Darchen wrote a chapter deeling with wax constructions in the hive as part of the complexe social regulations in the hive. He submitted bees to numerous experiences to draw wax cells, far too numerous to be described here. His work really worth to be read. Some points I kept from the reading: - There is no standard cell size. Cells size varies in the hive from brood to supers, from center to edges, but also geographically from one region to another according to Alber's study in italy on lingustica - cells are not exactly hexagonal. "Lateral angles are more than 120 Deg., while up and down angles are smaller." (my free translation) - so-called parallel sides of cells are not exactly parallel but converge slowly to the hive's top - Cells deep also varies greatly but is more uniform in the brood area - cells are constantly modified depending on the colony needs. Namely cells wax is taken, recycled, added, remolded to enlarge or reduce cells walls, adjust intercombs space, etc.. - in natural construction, combs are not straight. The space between combs is maintained but combs are more or less curved with a general ellipsoid shape when an horizontal cut is considered. I verified this point by letting bees drawing comb in an empty box above the nest. So there are concave zones and convexe zones. - naturally, several groups of bees can began combs construction in different points of the hive simultaneously. When the work is more advanced, they adjust the different contructions to make them consistent with bee space between combs. that is the reason why, in natural conditions, combs are not all parallel. Once a combs is built, adjacent combs direction is driven by the existing one, resulting in a relativ parallelism. A lot more in his work... Hervé Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 21:57:07 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: Phoretic Mite Indicator Comments: cc: Zachary Huang In-Reply-To: <200408301901.i7UFmdq3015286@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Zachary: "...We used tobacco smoke here for 30 min and usually get a mite drop higher than 24 hr natural drop..." What is your SOP? I have read bad things about wintering after tobacco smoke. Surgeon General probably knows best...JK Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net Bob, thanks, :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 22:31:37 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: Pesticide regulations-Oxalic In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040831062509.00b8c168@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "I have found directions for Oxalic drench, but not for Oxalic evaporation. Is there a site that gives good directions for its use, or can you supply directions. Where can one find the evaporators?" Mike, Here is one of the best links: http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-1-nf.htm And another: http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/Oxalic_Acid.htm Here is one that covers the application via solution: http://www.entom.slu.se/res/bi/Proceedings.html#Oxalic%20Acid%20for%20Mite%2 0Control%20-%20Results%20and%20Review For my money, a quick read seems to indicate that vapour is the way to go. My guess is that the dosage is from 1 to 2 teaspoons. I have made several vapourizers and can send pictures. JK Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 05:21:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Pesticide regulations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have found directions for Oxalic drench, but not for Oxalic > evaporation. Is there a site that gives good directions for its use, > or can you supply directions. Where can one find the evaporators? Sorry, I missed the question. Glad Jonathan replied. As he says, P-O's page is absolutely excellent. It has very clear pictures and text. Also, Cor Dewit is curently testing OA evaporation in Canada and you can see his setup at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/cor.htm. He has used nothing but OA for two seasons and drops about 18 mites per hive, average, per treatment. I;m planning to visit him some day soon, and hope to have a fuller report. I've also collected various formic and oxalic links over the past few years and posted them at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/formic/default.htm, and FWIW, a few additional items can be found from http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/menus/topics.htm allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 05:25:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Mid-US Honey Price Hotline (763-658-4193) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I called the Mid-US Honey Price Hotline (763-658-4193) and here is what I heard. a.. Updated September 1 b.. Cdn crop is down -- Crop looks like average to 20% down c.. $1.35 Cdn offered from Grossman d.. $US1.15 paid for amber recently e.. Barkman was offering $US1.20 now $US1.10 f.. Some honey came into the US at $US1.09 -- from west coast, Canada g.. Mid west US production spotty. Big mite problems. Concern about bees for the almonds? h.. Thinks the price may go to $1.30- $1.40 for white after the final numbers are known. Seems the Canucks are getting with the program. I see that some are now calling the line, which formerly had mostly US reports, AND leaving info to share with others. IMO, this is service very important, and it is very important we all contribute to the common good. Knowledge is power. Honey packers constantly share price and volume info, and that works very much to their advantage, but many beekeepers think they are being smart by keeping their cards close to their chest. They are wrong. By doing so, we all lose. Some think that if everyone has the same good information, that the competition will increase, and they will lose an advantage, but, in my experience, different people will use the same shared information in different ways. Each has different beliefs and priorities and reaches different conclusions. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:09:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: mites The mite drop per day is never going to be linear. The mite drop over time is a dynamics of the following factors: 1). level of resistance to chemical being used (susceptible ones will drop first), 2). the number of bees in the colony (larger colony will take longer for the chemical to be spread to each bee) 3). mode of action of the chemical (fast acting or not), and 3). how many new bees are emerging (perhaps the largest factor). we have removed all the sealed brood and put 20 strips into 2 broodboxes and then checked the mite drop by hr: it usually peaks at hr 4-5 after Apistan insertion. however, if mites are resistant, most will drop over night. Does any one here know if such data is already available? (the time course of mite drop after strip insertion). I am sure the manufacturer has this type of data. I am assuming if you use only 4 strips (standard), it might take 2-3 days to kill all the nonresistant mites. but bees will keep emerging (for about 12 days for workers and 14 days for drones), bringing more mites out. Some scientists think that the Apistan manufacturer made a mistake: instead of using 14x2=28 days, they must have calculated 21 days (eggs to adult for workers) and used two brood cycles (21x2=42 days, recommended time for Apistan to stay in the hive). Zach :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 11:41:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lynn Osborn Subject: mite levels In an apiary of 20 hives I am counting a mite drop of 4 a day in a couple of hives. The remainder of the hives show no mites at all. I treated with Checkmite exactly as recommended last fall and I use hygienic NWC queens from Pat Heitkam. I would think by now I would be seeing much greater mite numbers and wonder if I made a mistake. I thought that spraying Pam on the plastic trays that go under the screened bottom board I would catch any mites and prevent them from crawling off. Do you get a more accurate number with the sticky boards? Is it possible that Checkmite leaves a residual effect because it gets into the comb or am I seeing an effect from the hygienic bees removing larvae that are being attacked by the Varroa? Lynn :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:12:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Some scientists think that the Apistan manufacturer made a mistake: > instead of using 14x2=28 days, they must have calculated 21 days > (eggs to adult for workers) and used two brood cycles (21x2=42 days, > recommended time for Apistan to stay in the hive). Good point. Also 14x3=42. Seems like overkill, doesn't it? Engineers always figure the breaking point, then build in a margin of safety. Maybe that was done here? I guess that studying the drop info over the entire time is the only way to know for sure. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 21:52:54 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Bee Repellants to clear Supers As a preface, let me stress that Bob's approach assumes that one is using his "SOE car-wash" technique only AFTER removing one's honey crop. This eliminates concerns about impact on honey from the equation up front. > Moreover, SOE is known to be almost completely safe for the operator What actual science was done to "prove" this? The testing appears to be limited to acute LD-50 mammal testing, which does not tend to reveal the impact of long-term occupational exposure, which is how organophostphates got started. That said, SOE does look about as benign as one could hope for in a varroacide, so I'd agree that it poses about the same risk to the operator as HFCS might pose. > and unlikely to contaminate honey. I'd agree much less with this claim, given that one sprays so much on the bees and comb. One is left with a shere volume of residue at least several orders of magnitude above the residues left by any other process in beekeeping. Where exactly does it all go? > On the other hand, I am not as sure about Bee Quick. Is it approved > for use in bee hives? In the USA? Yes. See USC 152.8, federal law which directly addresses bee repellents. In the unlikely event that "non-contact exposure" becomes a spill into honey, everything is FDA food-grade (USP) and all ingreidients are listed in the FDA's "Generally Recognized As Safe" (GRAS) list, honored in civilized countries planetwide. > Elsewhere? Also yes. Everywhere on the planet except for, umm... Canada. :) Ooops! I forgot New Zealand, who decided to write regulations to specifically apply to Bee-Quick, as they discovered that their existing regulations did not allow them to regulate Bee-Quick as much as they wanted. The importer is slogging through the process with New Zealand's MAF on this, but everyone is being cooperative, and I have not yet had to break up any fistfights. > Last I heard from our co-op was that we are not to use BeeQuick > or be at risk of having our honey rejected, You mean Bee-Maid? The folks who asked for an exclusive distribution agreement for all of Canada two weeks after putting their membership on notice to not buy a product that I had already ordered my dealers and distributors to not sell to anyone in Canada? Those guys? Methinks that if I violated US law (the Robinson-Patman Act) and gave Bee-Maid "an exclusive", I would suddenly find that the current bureaucratic barriers to selling to Canada would disappear in a cloud of greasy black smoke. Where I come from, we call this sort of negotiation approach "racketeering", and send people to jail for indulging in such business practices, but perhaps Canadian laws are different. :) > and that butyric anhydride is the only chemical permitted for honey > removal use in Canada. Maybe that has changed? This has not changed, despite intensive attempts to work with Health Canada's PMRA group. The PMRA group is being intransigent, having done nothing but be non-responsive to specific questions about both process and requirements. So far, we have been able to gain an admission that butyric was "approved" without any studies or data, apparently simply at the casual request of "the Canadian beekeeping industry". Requests for documents related to exactly where, when, how, and why butyric was "approved", in an attempt to voluntarily offer identical documentation and data for Bee-Quick has resulted in excuses slightly less creative than "my dog ate my homework". We have better things to do with our time and money, so we have left it to the bee supply houses in Canada (both FW Jones and Benson's have expressed interest) to work on this issue with the appropriate ministers, as the lower-level bureaucrats appear unwilling to give equal treatment to butyric and non-butyric repellents, or may be unwilling to give equal treatment to Canadian and non-Canadian products. We have been told by some that working with individual provinces is a legitimate way to "work around" foot-dragging by the Canadian federal government, but we are not Canadian citizens, so we must leave this to the dealers that have expressed interest in selling Bee-Quick and/or the Canadian beekeepers who have asked us why our dealers won't accept orders from Canadians. A less charitable corporation would file suit against Canada under NAFTA Chapter 11 and be awarded all of the profits that MIGHT have been made since 2001 in a slam-dunk example of suing over arbitrary non-tariff barriers to trade. Lucky for Canada my firm policy is to stay away from the courthouse, and that Canada is simply not a big enough market to be worth the bother of paying my henchmen to do what I would rather not. Don't think that I don't love Bee-Maid. I do love them dearly. Their honey is the bulk of the low-end grocery-store honey sold around here, and this honey (heated to within a inch of its life, filtered almost as much as if they were buying Chinese honey, and blended to the point of blandness by experts in covering up the "flavor profile" of canola honey), makes selling my honey simple. I merely offer customers a taste of Bee-Maid's, and mine. Thanks, Bee-Maid! :) > Beyond that, it seems to me that we are in a grey area that is subject > to the whims and ad hoc judgements of various inspection and enforcement > agencies. Only if one is willing to tolerate such ad-hoc treatment. Perhaps if a clear and compelling reason for "approval" is presented that satisfies Canadian self-interest, someone in Canada will then decide to honor the NAFTA agreement, and bring their environmental and health regulations as they apply to beekeeping into compliance with the existing regulations of other NAFTA members. But I doubt it. No one admits that NAFTA exists when they are "buying", everyone pounds it on the table only when they are "selling". jim ("Coup d'etat? No, I offered you a CUP of TEA!") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 22:03:01 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: Pesticide regulations- Comments: cc: allen dick , randy.l.flaming@EXGATE.TEK.COM In-Reply-To: <000e01c48f3c$3d4c3230$1bb85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit With your application, how much is used. I have only seen two grammes as a measure, but would like to know the equivalence in teaspoons/table spoons. Thanks...JK Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 23:05:09 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: mites Comments: cc: Tom Martin In-Reply-To: <000001c492b8$f4c02f50$27f0cd97@your> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom,. What is the situation with the honey flow? Goldenrod is just starting to get going here. I have a bunch of hyssop as well. Been away for a week, so will check the girls on Monday...JK I am interested in your method. 'bout to get some formic...JK Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 11:40:36 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: mites >> If a hive drops 244 mites in 24 hours, then drops 78 in the next >> 24 hours. Is this a typical response? > Yes, it is. Not necessarily. Several competent authorities who have looked at this in detail hold the view that there is no "typical" number that can be expected from a 24-hour drop that can produce statistically valid data for studies, or even "accurate" data for treatment decisions. This is a bit of a longish story, but perhaps worth reading... I was surprised myself when I heard this, as one hears everyone speak of "24-hour drop tests", but the use of a 24-hour drop has been shown to the satisfaction of MAAREC and the Great Lakes IPM Group to not yield consistent data. As a result, they use a checkerboard pattern sticky-board card that looks like this: http://www.greatlakesipm.com/pictures/varroa2.jpg And can be ordered here: http://www.greatlakesipm.com/wingtraps.html Now, the white areas are where one counts mites cover 1/3rd of the board, and one leaves the Vaseline or oil-coated card in for 3 days, so I had viewed this as adding nothing but complexity versus simply counting all the mites that fall in a 24-hour period. Nancy Ostiguy and Maryann Frazier, both of Penn State, gave a talk on mite monitoring at EAS 2004, and they showed these cards, and even gave a few to each attendee. I asked them via e-mail about the intent behind leaving the board in 3 times as long, only to (try to) count mites in 1/3rd the area, and with more "trash" to confuse the eye as a result of the longer drop period. Nancy said in an e-mail reply: "The reason for needing to leave the sticky board in the hive for 3 days is that there is a large variation in mite drop within a 24 hour period. The variation in mite drop diminishes with 3-day sticky boards to a statistically insignificant level. I agree that the amount of debris is greater with a 3-day board than with a 24 hour board but making a decision with data from a 24 hour board is only slightly better than looking for mites on bees as you watch bees fly in and out of the hive. The boards we leave in for 3 days aren't too debris laden as long as we haven't put newspaper between the hive bodies or something like that. Maybe I'm just used to looking through debris." Quite an eye-opener. So it appears that one can be massively misled by 24-hour drop tests, and we should all consider 72-hour tests, with or without the plastic-coated checkerboard cards. jim ("Anarchy" means "spider without legs") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 11:22:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: mites In-Reply-To: <004a01c4935a$d594b950$26b85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Need to figure the brood cycle for drones not workers as the mites prefer drone brood. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 896 5247 > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:31:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: mite levels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In an apiary of 20 hives I am counting a mite drop of 4 a day in a > couple of hives. The remainder of the hives show no mites at all. I > treated with Checkmite exactly as recommended last fall and I use > hygienic NWC queens from Pat Heitkam. I would think by now I would be > seeing much greater mite numbers and wonder if I made a mistake. Up here, we've been noticing a lot less varroa than we would expect. As with everything, there are years when they thrive and years when they do not. Nature has its cycles. > I > thought that spraying Pam on the plastic trays that go under the > screened bottom board I would catch any mites and prevent them from > crawling off. That should be catching them all, if the screen keeps the bees away from the fallen mites, and if you are using enough Pam to soak the falling mites. > Do you get a more accurate number with the sticky > boards? See above. > Is it possible that Checkmite leaves a residual effect > because it gets into the comb Shouldn't be, if used as directed. It does leave a very residue that can have a subtle deleterious effect on queen bee rearing, but should not leave enough to affect mites much. > or am I seeing an effect from the > hygienic bees removing larvae that are being attacked by the Varroa? That may be a factor, but it may just be that the mites are having a bad year. Glad you are thinking about this, though. I am too. If you are not having serious mite problems, maybe you should not be using Checkmite+. Checkmite+ IMO, is only for situations where lesser measures cannot be trusted to work. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:58:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Pesticide regulations- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > With your application, how much is used. I have only seen two > grammes as a measure, but would like to know the equivalence in > teaspoons/table spoons. Having never used it personally, can't say. There is some mixing info on some of the sites we gave. I think the Swiss site used to have more detail. Apparently there are several forms of OA, depending on hydration, so that must be figured in when mixing. If you find a simple how-to somewhere, please let us all know. Seems that Lloyd was mentioning OA tablets that are used for fish. Maybe he can tell us more about size, availability, price, etc...? allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:49:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lynn Osborn Subject: Re: mite levels It was my intent to not treat again with Checkmite. I consider it the big gun and was doing the mite count to see if I could get away with a much less toxic chemical. I was thinking that I would try Sucrocide or maybe just smoke them with Sumac and try to knock them back for winter. If there are only a few I might have to do very little to reduce them back to what they were at this time last year. Lynn :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 17:48:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: mite levels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lynn Osborn wrote: > It was my intent to not treat again with Checkmite. I consider it > the big gun and was doing the mite count to see if I could get away > with a much less toxic chemical. Trouble is, once you use Checkmite+, your comb is contaminated. Not a lot, and maybe it does not matter, but, for monitoring natural drop (ND) is very nice. ND is easy, too, especially if you already have screened bottoms. I usually do a one-week ND (or longer), then divide by the estimated days and multiply by 100 to guess the load. ND is very reliable,especially if the time period is a week or so. IMO, anyhow, and if you are not trying to go right to the threshold of economic damage or collapse. > I was thinking that I would try > Sucrocide or maybe just smoke them with Sumac and try to knock them > back for winter. If you have used Checkmite+, then no need. Or are you saying that you just put it in for a day or two to see what drops, then plan to remove it? If so, it looks like you don't have a really heavy load, assuming that you used the proper number of strips. I'd guess your beginning infestation was about two or three times what you drop in the first few days before the curve goes flat. As for smokes, I'd be careful. Sometimes the ill effects on bees are delayed. We used to think cardboard rolls were a great idea for our smokers, but someone proved that there was a bee kill for a few days after the smoking... Less is more. > If there are only a few I might have to do very > little to reduce them back to what they were at this time last year. I think you are right, and as long as you monitor, then you should have plenty of warning before trouble erupts. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:00:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Martin Subject: Re: mites In-Reply-To: <200409051632.i85FQ4Ms014840@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to everyone, I will try out the 72 hour count idea. However the debris seems to be a big issue with me. The emerging bees drop bits of wax when chewing the cell open. This does not make it impossible to count the mites just possibly adds to a potential migraine. Why couldn't I establish a 72 hour count using the sum of three 24 hour counts? This would keep my boards from becoming overloaded. Also I have seen the mite drops cluster under the emerging brood. Over a 3 day period the emerging brood pattern moves throughout the hive. What happens if this is an area that is blanked out? To answer that question for my situation I imposed the checkerboard card over my grid. The numbers wouldn't matter. But the consistency of the numbers may have an effect. Hive 2 on checkerboard would have only counted 36% then 49% then 35% of the mites on three different 24 hour periods in a two week span. Hive 1 on checkerboard would have only counted 34% then 39% of the mites on two consecutive 24 hour periods. This indicates using a checkerboard it probably is a requirement to get a 72 hour sample. However using a continuous grid I would question the necessity of a 72 hour count. Thomas Martin Shippensburg, Pa Jonathon the golden rod is coming in good. An empty super put on a hive August 29 had four frames partially filled on September 4. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:14:46 -0400 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: mites Comments: cc: Tom Martin In-Reply-To: <000001c49419$d45bb650$4b783b42@your> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom, Thanks. I have been doing the same with long period counts. I put boards in before I left for Holiday a week ago. Same problem with the debris, but the Detwill boards I have are still pretty easy to see the buggers in spite of the debris. I plan to order a bunch of the checkerboards though...JK Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:16:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >`...the debris seems to be a big issue with me. Why couldn't I establish > a 72 hour count using the sum of three 24 hour counts? The standard for comparison is 24 hrs, but almost nobody goes exactly 24hrs. If you run longer -- we go up to two weeks on a single test -- or if you do several consecutive tests, then you just estimate the total number dropped, and divide the total days sampled to get back to a 24hr average. > This indicates using a checkerboard it probably is a requirement to > get a 72 hour sample. It is easy to make this job too technical and difficult, and IMO, that is why many do not bother. They find it too daunting. In fact, it is very simple. For non-scientists, this isn't rocket surgery. Once you get a feel for it, it is very simple and easy, and needs nothing fancy in the way of equipment or technique. Unless you have a heavy mite load, and are doing research, a checkerboard is simply an unnecessary distraction from the simple decision a beekeeper must make, and that is; are there a lot of mites, or only a very few? 72 hrs is not actually a standard for comparison. 24 hrs is. 3 days is just, roughly speaking, the _minimum_ period necessary to get a reasonably large sampling period and to reduce the effects of weather, disturbances, and other transient effects that might distort a very short term test. Also, in less than 3 days on a natural drop, you may not have enough mites to count, if there are not many. Longer is better, up to a point. We figure two weeks is that point, but it is not carved in stone. More good news: If you have a serious mite problem, then you won't have to count, and the mite load will be obvious, debris or no debris. Accuracy of count is of much greater interest to those who are doing research than for the rest of us. For most of us, after we learn to recognize mites and easily distinguish them from debris, all that is required is a glance at a board that has been in a week or so. Our counting process, rather than being "1, 2, 3,..." is more like, "That hive's OK, that one is OK, that one we'll watch, that one is pretty bad, and that one needs help right now"... If you have trouble seeing mites, which we all do at first, especially when we do not have any :) then a pair of drug store glasses (2x?) can be very useful, or a loupe can help). Debris is only a problem -- in my experience -- when there are too few mites to worry about. We often leave boards in for as long as two weeks and can still read them. Stimulated by the recent BEE-L discussion, I've improved the links to illustrated discussions of how we do mite drops on my Selected Topics Page. Check out "Mites and Mite Treatments" at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/menus/topics.htm if you are interested. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:25:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small cell size Hi Herve', Thanks for the report. Until the Bee Culture magazine published an article on the Lusbys, I hadn't given any thought to the effects of comb on bee behavior. But after seeing the impact that small cell sized comb had on colony health, my perspective changed. Comb is much more than just a place for bees to hang out, store food and raise young. I wish I could read that book for myself. But unfortunately my tongue is stuck in English :>) Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:35:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Charles Frederic Andros, Linden Apiaries" Subject: For your calendar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For your calendar: "Charles Andros, former NH/VT Apiary Inspector, will hold a beekeeping workshop from 1-3 PM on Saturday, September 25, at the Paul Harlow Farm = on Route 5 in North Westminster, VT, 1/2 mile north of the I-91 Exit 5 = ramp. Look for the "BEE" sign on the west side. Topics of discussion will = include treatment of nosema and mites, winter preparations, winter protein and carbohydrate supplements, and making beeswax handcreams. Bring a = veil, if you have one, as we shall be opening some colonies. We'll be in the = barn if it is a rainy day.=20 To register email: lindena@sover.net or call 603-756-9056." 2005: "Charles Andros, former NH/VT Apiary Inspector, will hold a beekeeping = workshop from 1-3 PM on Saturday, April 16, at the Paul Harlow Farm on = Deep Root Drive off Route 5 in North Westminster, VT, 1/2 mile north of = the I-91 Exit 5 ramp. Look for the "BEE" sign on the west side. Topics = of discussion will be early spring management: locating apiaries, = equipment, handling bees, feeding syrup and supplements, fogging varroa = mites with FGMO/Thymol, making nuclei, reversing, and requeening. Bring = a veil, if you have one, as we shall be opening some colonies. We'll be = in the barn if it is a rainy day. To register, email: lindena@sover.net = or call 603-756-9056.=20 Charles Andros, former NH/VT Apiary Inspector, will hold a beekeeping workshop from 1-3 PM on Saturday, May 7, at the Paul Harlow Farm on Farm = on Deep Root Drive off Route 5 in North Westminster, VT, 1/2 mile north = of the I-91 Exit 5 ramp. Look for the "BEE" sign on the west side. Topics of discussion: finding queens, requeening and 2-queen colonies, pollen collection, swarm control, = supering, and bee venom therapy. Bring a veil, if you have one, as we shall be opening some colonies. We'll be in the barn if it is a rainy day.=20 To register by email: lindena@sover.net or call 603-756-9056. "Tracheal and Varroa mites are notorious killers of bees in New England. American Foulbrood disease is on the increase as dead hives are being robbed. Beekeepers must take timely steps to control these pests to SAVE THE BEES! Charles Andros, former NH/VT Apiary Inspector, will hold a beekeeping workshop from 1-3 PM on Saturday, July 16, at the Paul Harlow Farm on Route 5 in North Westminster, VT, 1/2 mile north of the I-91 = Exit 5 ramp. Look for the "BEE" sign on the west side. The topics of discussion will be taking off and extracting honey, wax processing, treatment of = mites and foulbrood, and making propolis tincture. Bring a veil, if you have = one, as we shall be opening some colonies. We'll be in the barn if it is a = rainy day.=20 To register email: lindena@sover.net or call 603-756-9056." "Charles Andros, former NH/VT Apiary Inspector, will hold a beekeeping workshop from 1-3 PM on Saturday, September 24, at the Paul Harlow Farm = on Route 5 in North Westminster, VT, 1/2 mile north of the I-91 Exit 5 = ramp. Look for the "BEE" sign on the west side. Topics of discussion will = include treatment of nosema and mites, winter preparations, winter protein and carbohydrate supplements, and making beeswax handcreams. Bring a = veil, if you have one, as we shall be opening some colonies. We'll be in the = barn if it is a rainy day.=20 To register email: lindena@sover.net or call 603-756-9056." Thank you, Charles Frederic Andros Linden Apiaries since 1973 Speaker, Eastern Apicultural Society Conference 2001, on Propolis and = Pollen Production NH/VT Apiary Inspector 1978-1989 P. O. Box 165 Walpole, NH 03608-0165 603-756-9056 lindena@sover.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:06:54 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Its quite easy to see that allen has real experience in monitoring the mites >. For non-scientists, this isn't rocket surgery. Once you get a >feel for it, it is very simple and easy, and needs nothing fancy in the way >of equipment or technique. Unless you have a heavy mite load, and are doing >research, a checkerboard is simply an unnecessary distraction from the >simple decision a beekeeper must make, and that is; are there a lot of >mites, or only a very few? It really is simple. A practical beekeepers needs to know reliable approximate of the amount of mites. I always tell at courses that when a beekeeper is spending after first trials more than 30 seconds countig mites from one hive he is doing scientific research, not beekeeping. In Finland we consider natural downfall of 1 mite / day to bee the limit for starting treatments in August. Reading Bee -l posts I know that it is much lower that what you others normally do. When more than 15 / day we recommend more intense treatments. Normal treatment in August would be formic acid ( 65 % about 120 ml/ langstroth hive, slow evaporation for about 10 days) or 12 g of thymol in a pad. I recommend oxalic acid tricling to all hives later in about November when there is no brood. Oxalic become totally leagal in EU this year ( or was it already late last year) Beekeepers come up together with the money to do the necessary research. The associations from each country paid it's share based on the number of the hives. Or almost all paid, for example the Spanish with their 2 million hives didn't bother . In the end the bill was less that we tought it to be. Don't remenber exact, but much less that 1 euro / hive. In my studies I have now beekeepers who have used only single oxalic acid tricling for 3 years in a row because the mite counts have been small. We just did August monitoring. One beekeeper did not find any mites from 10 hive apiary in 2 weeks of natural downfall. Several others reported less than total of 5 mites from 10 hives in 2 weeks. The same beekeepers killed in same yards about 1000 - 3000 mites / hive when they joined research 4 years ago (5 - 15 / day as natural downfall in August). I can say that oxalic is a mighty tool in situations where there is a broodless period and no reinfection from other hives. Ari Seppälä Finland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:32:42 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: mites > The emerging bees drop bits of wax when chewing the > cell open. This does not make it impossible to count > the mites just possibly adds to a potential migraine. Here's a trick - get some of the super-wide food-service type Saran Wrap (Sysco Food Services sells it nationwide), and put it over the sticky board, wrapping it around the edges. This will allow you to place your finger over a suspected mite and push. Mites are hard, while bottom board trash will compress. It also allows one to get the boards back to a more comfortable place for counting without getting oil or Vaseline all over your vehicle upholstery. > Why couldn't I establish a 72 hour count using the sum of > three 24 hour counts? No reason why not, other than the additional time/labor of doing three counts, visiting the hive 3 times, etc. > This would keep my boards from becoming overloaded. Also I > have seen the mite drops cluster under the emerging brood. > Over a 3 day period the emerging brood pattern moves throughout > the hive. What happens if this is an area that is blanked out? The blanked-out areas are much smaller than a typical brood area, and as you are in PA, you can ask MaryAnn yourself what her concerns would be about this approach, but regardless, we need standards for counting mites, and this may be the only well-documented attempt at a standard that has both been subjected to the rigor of statistical analysis, and has been consistently used in several studies, so perhaps we beekeepers should simply accept it, and not try to "improve it". The printed cards say "Board Design 3 Copyright 2002", so it is clear that tweaking has been done by Penn State and/or MAAREC. In my view, the single biggest problem we face is the inability to compare numbers between studies and between nearby beekeepers. All the talk of "thresholds" is made even more counter-productive by the lack of a consensus on how to count mites. (Insert my prior rants here about how a single mite-drop reading cannot possibly be a valid basis for a treatment decision by definition.) > Hive 2 on checkerboard would have only counted 36% then 49% then 35% > of the mites on three different 24 hour periods in a two week span. I think that MaryAnn and Nancy would advise you to do the counts on three consecutive days. Spreading out the days would fall outside the abilities of what I would expect to be the statistical model used. > However using a continuous grid I would question the necessity of > a 72 hour count. Well, a 24-hour count on a "continuous grid" was what I have been doing ever since I built my first screened bottom, but this is exactly what was shown to be misleading by the work cited by MaryAnn and Nancy. (I hope that they will send me actual citations. When they do, I will get the papers, and post them somewhere, assuming author permission.) Also, if anyone wants to help out, I would love to get as many high-resolution digital photos of removed sticky boards as I can, along with whatever your "count" was for that drop. It would help if the sticky board itself was white or light colored, and it would also help if the sticky board was roughly parallel to the front of the lens, and shot "square on" in fairly bright light. I have some image processing software that I have been using to count mites, and I am hoping to test it against a large enough dataset to at least offer proof that, if it "reads low" or "reads high", it does so by a consistent percentage, and is a valid tool for research use. Cutting the labor required to count mites may sound silly, but when you are doing drop counts on 100 hives or so, it can take days and days. (The code is very good at "seeing" reddish-brownish and/or whitish ovals among all the much less oval-shaped hive trash, even when the ovals are partly obscured, but one must admit that a mite completely covered by hive trash can never be seen.) jim (Feng-Shui is not a belief system, its just a storage solution.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:05:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Tom Martin" wrote > However the debris seems to be > a big issue with me. The emerging bees drop bits of wax when chewing the > cell open. Try dumping the whole lot into 50:50 methylated spirits/water. Mites float, debris sinks. Pour liquid and mites into a fine strainer (could use filter paper). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 16:26:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL BOEHM Subject: high moisture honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All I have a problem and the archives dont seem to answer it. I have taken off about 400 pounds of capped honey and about 100 pounds of partially capped honey as it is the fall clean up time here in North Carolina. The problem is the capped honey is running about 19 % moisture and the partially capped is measuring 20% to 21% moisture. I have never had honey this high in moisture before and am afraid fermentation is a real probability. This crop was pulled in the am and was extracted the same day in a reasonably dry area under air conditioning. The same process as in past years. The hive beetle problem makes leaving supers setting about a real disaster. Any and all suggestions would be appreciated. Thank in advance Al Boehm Columbus NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:22:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: high moisture honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al asks: The problem is the capped honey is running about 19 % moisture and the partially capped is measuring 20% to 21% moisture. Always check moisture *before* extracting! >This crop was pulled in the am and was extracted the same day in a reasonably dry area under air conditioning. An AC will pull moisture out of honey but a temp around 90F and a dehumidifier works better. About three days and up to seven days was needed to get the above honey correct. Once extracted: You can drop the moisture content a full percent by heating to the 140 F. range in a bottling tank with a lid and wiping the moisture off the lid with a tea towel. Each time you do the honey will darken but each time the moisture level will drop. The only other method I know of without a commercial honey drier is too spread the honey out in a tank like Kelley sells (4 foot long) in a room with a dehumidifier for days. Mix with a honey with a low moisture content. Al said: The hive beetle problem makes leaving supers setting about a real disaster. True! and not a simple answer exists. Do not bring in more supers than you can easily monitor and keep a close eye on while in the honey house. In areas of small hive beetle you also need to make sure all you bring into the honey house is comb. Blowing bees from supers also blows SHB from supers. Leaf blowers work for the hobby beekeeper. Fume boards will not always drive SHb from the supers. The adult female SHB is the problem. Many other methods to help control SHB in the honey house are in the archives such as a bright light ( SHb travel to) , temp & humidity concerns. My name and the word small hive beetle should bring up a few hits. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 20:46:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: high moisture honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have never had honey this high in moisture before and am > afraid fermentation is a real probability. First of all, are you sure that your reading is correct? Double check your calibration. Assuming the reading is correct, you have a number of options: Keep it in pails in a cool dry place, and watch for signs of fermentation. Sell it to someone who will blend it with drier honey. Pasteurize it. Break it up into small containers and keep it in a freezer. Make mead out of it. Mix in a sorbate to prevent fermentation. In my experience, it will not start to ferment for some months, but that all depends on many factors, and I can't say what will happen in your case. I'm sure others will have some thoughts. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 21:48:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: high moisture honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You can drop the moisture content a full percent by heating to the > 140 F. range in a bottling tank with a lid and wiping the moisture > off the lid with a tea towel. This should also pasteurize it, assuming the process takes a few hours. Pateurized honey should not ferment if put into a clean container and kept covered. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:55:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: high moisture honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "allen dick" wrote: > Mix in a sorbate to prevent fermentation. Do people do this in the US? It would be illegal to add anything to honey in the UK. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:34:31 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: high moisture honey >> "allen dick" wrote: >> Mix in a sorbate to prevent fermentation. > Do people do this in the US? Of course not. > It would be illegal to add anything to honey > in the UK. In the US, the technical term is "adulteration", and one may not sell such honey for human consumption at risk of fines, jail time, civil lawsuits, and such. jim (I'm a Vegan of sorts - I refuse to eat animals that eat other animals - simple professional courtesy to other predators.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:46:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zachary Huang Subject: Re: mites On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:32:42 -0400, James Fischer < jfischer@SUPERCOLLIDER.COM> wrote: >I think that MaryAnn and Nancy would advise you to do the counts on >three consecutive days. Spreading out the days would fall outside >the abilities of what I would expect to be the statistical model used. I am pretty sure that the statistics are ONLY for estimating the #s of mites accurately on the board by doing a randomly or stratified sampling on the board itself. It has nothing to do with days. 3 days reduces the random day to day variation... Zach :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:57:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: montveil Subject: Re: high moisture honey In-Reply-To: <000e01c49484$e67afbf0$71b85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another option is to freeze it and look for a mead maker Subject: Re: [BEE-L] high moisture honey :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:54:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lynn Osborn Subject: American Foulbrood spreading As and Illinois apiary inspector I have been surprised by the spread of AFB from apiary to apiary. This spring I found a beekeeper with AFB in his colonies and in dead hives he had allowed to be robbed out. He had even set out combs with honey and dried scales to be robbed out. A week later I found his neighbors hives with a few cells of AFB.(1/2 mile) Yesterday I found an apiary 4 miles away with it and another at 6 miles. The yard at 4 miles was setup with new equipment this year yet it had one colony with AFB. Fortunately, this hive had yet to be robbed out. I know the beekeeper didn't bring it in himself so I can only assume that it came from my careless beekeeper. The yard at 6 miles I had inspected earlier in the year but had run short of time and only inspected a few colonies. Those colonies still were clean but several of the others are now showing most larvae dying of AFB. Even though I hadn't inspected the others earlier I doubt if they even had it then since they still are loaded with bees. The area these hives are in is heavily farmed and there are few trees or houses and unless there is another apiary I don't know about I am led to believe that bees traveled 6 miles to rob out a diseased hive. Is this likely? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:43:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: high moisture honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Mix in a sorbate to prevent fermentation. > > Do people do this in the US? It would be illegal to add anything to > honey in the UK. Don't know if people do it in the US. Don't know of anyone who does that in Canada, where I live, either. I was writing about what _can_ work, not what is legal in specific circumstances. That would be a much more limited discussion. The law and custom surrounding what is marketable in various situations is a different, although important subject, and I am glad you mentioned it, for anyone who may not think of such things. Of course anyone contemplating any of the remedies I mentioned should consider legality and practicality, and rule out any that are inappropriate in their situation. Although adding sorbate or another common food preservative can forestall fermentation, marketing the honey, as honey, we assume but do not know for certain, would obviously be inappropriate most places after adding sorbate, even the tiny amounts required. The amount of honey mentioned was small and there was no mention of marketing it, so it ocurred to me that sorbate might be an option. It seemed obvious to me that the honey is not marketable in its current state, except for blending purposes or as a food ingredient, so I was thinking particularly of the context where the honey was to be thinned further to make syrup, or used in preserves. In either case either pasteurization or stopping growth of yeasts with something like a sorbates could be appropriate. Sorbates or other preservatives are commonly added to many sweet, high moisture products to prevent spoilage. Adding sorbate might be perfectly okay if the honey was being held to be used at some future date for a use such as making preserves and the person using it were aware of the sorbate. I doubt that this option is one that many would choose, but it is worth knowing about. As for legality in various places, I am no lawyer, but I know that -- most places -- you can do anything you want with your own honey -- unless you plan to sell it as pure honey. There are also special circumstances where honey can be altered and still sold (but usually not AFAIK as 'pure honey'). An educated beekeeper should be aware of all options, and it was in that context that I mentioned sorbate. There is no doubt, however, that adding sorbate would be inappropriate if the honey were destined to be marketed as pure honey in most markets, and I assumed that everyone knows that, but, noneless, the knowledge that sorbate or other food preservatives could be used in some circumstances may prove to be invaluable to someone. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:49:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: MRH Subject: Re: high moisture honey Comments: To: James Fischer In-Reply-To: <03ef01c494d7$067a62e0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII When I lived in Indonesia in the early '80's I heard of a project in Sumatra involving a honey dryer. I never saw it but it had revolving plates to sheet the honey and a hot air blower. The problem was that the climate was so humid that any gathered honey was very soon very moist and runny, and therefore couldn't be marketed because of fermentation. This machine was the basis of a honey industry in Riau Province. My question is whether such a system exists in North America, or is commercially available. That would solve the problem. Marc Hoffman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:40:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: American Foulbrood spreading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lynn asks: The area these hives are in is heavily farmed and there are few trees or houses and unless there is another apiary I don't know about I am led to believe that bees traveled 6 miles to rob out a diseased hive. Is this likely? Could also be a wild swarm with AFB or a place where a feral colony with AFB had been being robbed and causing the problem. Yes! Especially in areas of farm crops which provide no nectar and pollen at this time of year. The bees simply fly over acres of soy beans and corn waiting for the combine in search of nectar. I move bees out of such areas in fall and into areas of fall nectar & pollen ( like I have been doing the last two weeks) . Hives winter poorly without a fall flow of some kind to provide pollen and young bees to winter with. Heavily wooded areas are the best place to stash a large number of hives from the locals! Usually hives at a distance of six miles would be too far for serious robbing *unless* the hive was already dead or almost dead. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:21:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you have trouble seeing mites, which we all do at first, especially when > we do not have any :) then a pair of drug store glasses (2x?) can be very > useful, or a loupe can help). I suggest a x10 pocket magnifying glass, not to count the mites but to examine them. You may find a proportion of them have been damaged by the bees. Typically there will be missing limbs or dents in the carapace. I once followed the mite drop over several months in a particular hive and found that the proportion of damaged mites increased markedly. If you find that some hives are better at damaging mites than others it might be one of the factors to consider in your selection policy. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:35:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: High Moisture Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/09/2004 05:08:51 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > You can drop the moisture content a full percent by heating to the 140 F. > range in a bottling tank with a lid and wiping the moisture off the lid with > a tea towel. > > Each time you do the honey will darken but each time the moisture level will > drop. > This treatment will raise HMF levels towards acceptable limits and will reduce diastase levels. Whether you can sell this honey as 'honey' depends on your local regulations. 'Baker's Honey' is accepted as being saleable after with raised HMFetc but fetches a lower price. Have you considered mead/ cyser/ metheglin/pyment etc? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:54:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jack Rath Subject: Honey bottling valves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember someone mentioning a plastic alternative to the expensive = brass no-drip bottling valves. I searched the messages and can't find = it. Is anyone using a plastic bottling valve who can share where it can = be purchased? thanks John :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::