From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:48:54 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.9 required=2.4 tests=AWL,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4142048916 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDKB012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0409E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 74034 Lines: 1612 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:48:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: cell size & hive population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor asks: What were your figures for the amount of eggs laid in a 24 hour period? My research only involved a small number of hives but over a long period of time. I checked once a week by putting the queen on a empty drawn comb with a special queen excluder on both sides. Removed her 24 hours later and counted eggs. Exact figures (except for the highest egg count in 24 hours ) are of little importance. I did find that the queen laid in proportion with the circumstances of the hive except for swarm queens. The Italian queens were the most prolific I found but also the line I tested the most. I was amazed to find swarm queens would lay eggs on sheets of foundation completely ignoring the looking into a cell and then depositing an egg. I believe this fact is one of the main reasons a swarm always seems to expand so fast. Workers are always trying to keep pace with the swarm queen which may have only been doing an average job before leaving with the swarm. Most swarm queens are old queens . First year swarm queens had the highest egg production in 24 hours. I had one lay over 2500 eggs in 24 hours. I have often puzzled why a queen I have been watching (counting eggs per day and watching swarm preparations and the queen stopping laying in swarm preparation) was only laying a certain number of eggs per day. Then swarm to one of my Peach trees ( swarms love peach trees) and when hived on foundation almost *double* eggs per day in the new hive on foundation! To answer Trevor's question I never had a queen lay 3,000 eggs a day as many have said but not saying queens don't or can not. Would be 125 eggs laid per hour or approx. 2 eggs per minute around the clock. I did find many which would lay 1500 eggs in 24 hours which would be approx. 65 eggs per hour or one per minute. One reason for low egg production for many of the queens was being picky about the cleanliness of cells, going over areas they had already laid eggs in looking in each cell AGAIN , being groomed by attendants and simply wondering around the comb. I have seen queens simply sit in a place for a long time. These are only my observations. I do not believe Wyatt Mangum which writes for ABJ is on BEE-L but believe his observations on the subject would be interesting as I was amazed the last time we talked on the phone the number of observation hives he watches every day. I think others which have looked at queens and egg laying would provide interesting information for the list and may have seen very different egg production in their research. Researchers care to comment? The above was taken in hives nearing full size and with a flow on or being fed. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:22:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: clear brood nest Comments: cc: Phil Moore MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: . I use the "open brood nest" system of management as outlined in the > book "honey getting" by Lloyd Sechrist ( 1946). Phil asks: Would it be possible to give some more detail of this method? The method is defined by Sechrist ( pg. 64) as "a brood nest of ample proportions with enough clear and usable worker cells to permit the queen to lay freely during those parts of the year when her offspring will be valuable to the operator." When discussed on BEE-L by me years ago most said the method involved too much hive manipulation. I use the "clear brood nest" method outlined in the book except for one difference. I disagree with Sechrist on one point. He talks about removing brood and replacing with foundation to prevent swarming. I believe using drawn comb works better as the queen has room to lay right away. Sticking foundation in the center of the brood nest might help with crowding but does little for the queen but is better than no action at all I suppose. *In my opinion* anytime you allow a queen to stop laying ( bees filling brood rearing area with nectar or all cells filled with brood) you are forcing swarming on the queen. If you always keep brood rearing area open and cells for her to lay in she is content. I wrote on BEE-L years ago of an experiment I did. I took a strong two story hive hive and placed nine frames of sealed brood in a single langstroth deep with queen and bees by shaking all bees in the box. Within ten minutes the queen had had enough and the hive swarmed to a nearby tree leaving some bees at the the old stand. I got the swarm and hived right next to the old stand within 30 minutes and none of the bees (or that I could see) returned to the old hive. Seems when they swarm they forget about ever returning to the old stand *unless* of course the queen has clipped wings and the bees find she is not among the swarm . Many other points made in the book about queens, excluders and methods etc. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:00:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: Even though I may be a proponent I only recommend small cells be tried and trialed before deciding to switch or not. Cost is always a factor with production colonies. Downsizing to small cell invovles cost both in labor and replacing comb. When I found varroa was still around on 4.9mm cell size I was not as interested. I see value in the screened bottom board but am not ready to cut holes in my skids possibly weakening the skids for the benifits. Keith said: Well I think hobbyist use these too, I was hoping for a real secret. Secret for Keith: Knowing what is going on in your bee hives is the real secret. Guessing what is going on will get you in trouble every time. Keith said: To be honest the queen is a large part of how many numbers of bees there are in a colony but is not the limiting factor. All queens are not equal! Good queens do not cost but pay dividends. Keith said: You may want to take the time to go and visit the Lusby's and see their results with Labor/Cost with using small cells, but you already know some of that history. It might be worth it to you to see them again since you are with an open mind. Dee has offered many times. I have got very little free time. I would love to see Dee's bees. In Jacksonville (last January) Allen Dick, Aaron Morris and I discussed Allen's days he spent with Dee in great detail. Allen was impressed with Dee and her bees which speaks volumes with me! I hope Ed Lusby has recovered from his stroke and is back working with the beekeeping. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:33:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: clear brood nest In-Reply-To: <001b01c4a5db$f6cf0600$2ebc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-48A56BF9; boundary="=======202139D2=======" --=======202139D2======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-48A56BF9; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >Bob said: > >He (Sechrist) talks about removing brood and replacing with foundation to >prevent >swarming. I believe using drawn comb works better as the queen has room to >lay right away. Sticking foundation in the center of the brood nest might >help with crowding but does little for the queen but is better than no >action at all I suppose. I did an experiment this year, similar to this. I removed a frame of brood from a strong, crowded, 4 frame nuc, and replaced it with a frame of foundation. This was at 10:00 AM. At 5:00 PM, the foundation was half drawn. The next morning there were eggs on this frame...even though some of the cells containing eggs were only partially drawn. When I add a comb to my breeder colony...queen confined to 3 combs, 2 of which have no room for her to lay...she will not lay in the comb for about 24 hours until it is warmed and polished. So, I can see what Sechrist is talking about...adding foundation to help with swarming. I'm not saying one method is better than the other, but that both work...depending on the circumstances. Mike --=======202139D2=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:20:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: cell size & hive population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" >" I checked once a week by putting the queen on a empty drawn comb with a > special queen excluder on both sides. Removed her 24 hours later and counted > eggs....... One reason for low egg production for many of the queens was being picky > about the cleanliness of cells, going over areas they had already laid eggs > in looking in each cell AGAIN , being groomed by attendants and simply > wondering around the comb". These two extracts from Bob's observations show the difficulty in conducting small scale experiments that truly mimic the conditions in a large undisturbed colony. A queen (so I believe) will only lay in cells that have been cleaned and polished by house bees. Patches of such cells are easy to see - they gleam - and when they start to appear it can indicate for example that a newly mated queen is about to come into lay. IMHO just restricting a queen to a suddenly introduced drawn comb will not immediately provide the queen with laying space - the nurse bees have to finish working elsewhere and come to prepare the cells first. Secondly, I believe queens lay in bursts, not continuously, with a period for regeneration after each burst. (Queens vary in the number of egg-tubes they have developed, and can lay only one egg per tube in the fixed time it takes for an egg to develop in a tube, which implies poorly developed queens can run out of ready eggs if they lay too quickly and have to rest until the next batch is ready). This is the reason, IMHO, why I get larger colonies when using a good queen on larger frames - the queen has sufficient space to lay out the full number of eggs she is capable of in each burst, which results in the observable larger brood patches. But, broadly, a queen will only lay out a large patch if it also happens to be warmed by being beside another comb well filled with brood. (It may not be warmth that is vital so much as high enough humidity to avoid tyhe eggs drying out). A third complication is that (according to research somewhere that I cannot now find), not all the eggs laid by a queen are accepted and reared by house bees, some get eaten, possibly a tasty snack to a young bee short of protein. Some eggs may be rejected as defective - but also (so I have read), since the queen has mated with 9+ drones, there are 9+ 'tribes' within the colony, and an individual bee gives preference to raising eggs that will mature into full sisters, and may reject the competition. (This implies that a nurse bee can somehow recognise an egg with the genes of a full sister - seems incredible, but a lamb can recognise its mother sheep in a flock that to humans all look alike). So I wonder if more valid observations have to be made somehow in less disturbed conditions in some sort of full sized observation hive - or else by photoing comb sides in a standard hive every 3 days and measuring the changes in area of sealed brood . There must have been many attempts. Anyone know references? I can point only to the brief account of Nolan's 1925 experiments, given in E F Phillips, Beekeeping, revised 1928 - the best colony showed 1587 eggs per day in 1921 and 1528 in 1920. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:45:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle In-Reply-To: <200409290520.i8T5KCaG016377@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday 28 September 2004 10:00 pm, Bob Harrison wrote: > Bob > > Cost is always a factor with production colonies. Downsizing to small cell > invovles cost both in labor and replacing comb. When I found varroa was > still around on 4.9mm cell size I was not as interested. You are not going to see an elimination of varroa. This is not the purpose. Small Cell beekeeping is one wholistic front to keeping bees well. Its one of part of the whole darwin approach. You will continue to see varroa in your hives, the difference is your hives will not crash because of it. The varroa population remain maintained instead of overwhelming your bees. There is only one way to know for sure, its not through reading, its not through listening to others advocate it, and it is certainly not through the arguments about it, the only way is to find out for yourself and to keep a few small cell hives and keep them for more than just a year, it takes a while to see the continued benefits. > I see value in the screened bottom board but am not ready to cut holes in > my skids possibly weakening the skids for the benifits. > I have heard that bottomless hives can be healthier too. But I keep bees naked, that is to say in shorts and t-shirt and no veil, though I have started wearing safety goggles recently. I have heard that bottomless colonies can tend to be more agressive/defensive since the number of guard bees increases by magnitudes. > Keith said: > Well I think hobbyist use these too, I was hoping for a real secret. > > Secret for Keith: > > Knowing what is going on in your bee hives is the real secret. Guessing > what is going on will get you in trouble every time. > This is true, so you shouldn't guess about small cell either. You will continue to see varroa, I continue to see varroa and saw them in the late spring, yet my hives continued to explode in population and each hive produced an average of 200 Lbs of honey this year. They are still working hard and still strong in population. I don't have one hive that crashed. > Keith said: > To be honest the queen is a large part of how many > numbers of bees there are in a colony but is not the limiting factor. > > All queens are not equal! Good queens do not cost but pay dividends. Keith, the queen is one of the most important factors I am sure you will agree. Room for her to lay is also JUST as important, and having enough honey,pollen and water are also JUST as important, and also a bee cluster large enough to nurse the brood. While a hive is developing the queen will only lay within the cluster, as the cluster grows the brood nest grows, once the cluster reaches critical survival mass, the limiting factor is honey binding. The bees regulate the queen by closing her in. The bees know how big the brood nest should be. If the bees don't know on their own, then they won't produce. If they don't produce, they squander away all on their own. > > Keith said: > You may want to take the time to go and visit the Lusby's and see their > results with Labor/Cost with using small cells, but you > already know some of that history. It might be worth it to you to see them > again since you are with an open mind. > > Dee has offered many times. I have got very little free time. I would love > to see Dee's bees. In Jacksonville (last January) Allen Dick, Aaron Morris > and I discussed Allen's days he spent with Dee in great detail. Allen was > impressed with Dee and her bees which speaks volumes with me! > I live in sarasota, if you want to come here and see my bees instead of going to arizona to visit dee, please feel free. Of course the operation is successfully and entirely top bar hives. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:22:16 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: cell size & hive population > I think others which have looked at queens and egg laying would provide > interesting information for the list and may have seen very different egg > production in their research. > Researchers care to comment? Not my own research, but Dr. Rick Fell of VA Tech touched on this issue in his presentation to the West Virginia Beekeeper's fall meeting. He has study data that found significant impact on both drone sperm count and sperm viability as a result of using not just CheckMite, but also Apistan and Formic Acid. While this has nothing at all to do with the number of eggs laid per day, it was something I did not know. Checkmite had the worst impact of course, then Apistan, then Formic. He whizzed through his slides too quickly for me to jot down any specific numbers. I've pointed video cameras at observation hives before to count number of eggs per day, and I've never seen better than 1 egg per minute in a sustained burst that might bring the average up to anything well above 1440 - 1500. I've filmed under all sorts of seasonal/temperature/humidity conditions, but I have never shoved a small swarm into an observation hive. I've even filmed under low-light and darkroom "safelights" in an attempt to eliminate the impact of light on the situation. (Once a colony gets "used to" an observation hive, they apparently learn to tolerate or ignore a low-level of "extra" light, so this is a non-issue. Complete darkness versus daily exposure to low-level indirect lighting appears to make no difference.) It is interesting that some have seen queens in a swarm laying so rapidly and with so little concern for cell condition. To me, this means that the queen "has it in her" (assuming that this is a swarm including an marked and known "old" queen), but somehow chooses to "work harder" when establishing a new hive after a swarm. Of course, people have been trying for years to convince the bees that they "just swarmed" for purposes of drawing new comb and producing comb honey, and for the most part, the bees remain unconvinced. :) jim (Orkut? Friendster? OK, so the person behind the counter at Starbucks may be your friend's roommate's cousin's co-worker's boyfriend's sister. But so what?) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:42:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: clear brood nest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike said: The next morning there were eggs on this frame...even though some of the cells containing eggs were only partially drawn. Interesting observation and the kind I had hoped for. Some queens will lay eggs right on new foundation which must really build a fire under the workers. I wonder if the trait can be bred for and also if in areas of constant weather change (Missouri) a desirable trait? Mike said: When I add a comb to my breeder colony...queen confined to 3 combs, 2 of which have no room for her to lay...she will not lay in the comb for about 24 hours until it is warmed and polished. I consider the warmed to be rare (from our experience) but not the polished. We have had breeder queens which are picky picky picky. We have had to use several Jenter systems (when using the Jenter system) to rotate cell cups to strong colonies to polish or else the breeder queen confined for 24 hours will ignore certain cell cups. The same breeder queen will fill every cup when *new* cell cups are used. I have also seen breeder queens begin to lay right away . I don't remember ever caging a queen for 24 hours and not at least getting some eggs to graft although we caged a II Russian queen & a II SMR queen awhile back and only got around 20 eggs in 24 hours from both. Mike said: So, I can see what Sechrist is talking about...adding foundation to help with swarming. I'm not saying one method is better than the other, but that both work...depending on the circumstances. I agree but in the book Sechrist never tells his placement position in the nest of the foundation which I believe is important and not warning new beekeepers about spliting the brood nest in two early in spring which I also see as important. Maybe I am being like the above queens picky picky picky. G.H. Cale & E. Lloyd Sechrist were the go to people for tough beekeeping questions when I started beekeeping. G.H. Cale (former editor of the American Bee journal )said about Sechrist in january of 1944: Sechrist is no "catch-as-can-catch" rambler, but a commercial honey producer who has kept bees for profit under the four sons, California, Ohio, Maryland, Africa, Haiti, and tahiti in the south seas; long one of Uncle Sams beekeeping aces in the office of Bee Culture, Bureau of Entomology, United States Dept. of Agriculutre" Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:22:56 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle Scot Mc Pherson said: > Small Cell beekeeping is one wholistic front to keeping bees well. > Its one of part of the whole darwin approach. One question which I have never had answered coherently is "How does one know that it is the small cells that are allowing the bees to tolerate varroa, rather than just the 'Darwin factor'?" In other words, assuming that we accept some of the credulity-stretching claims made by some small-cell advocates (that they never use ANY treatments at all and never lose a small-cell hive for ANY reason), are we seeing the direct result of smaller cells, or are we merely seeing the direct result of letting 80% of one's colonies die, and breeding from the stock that can either tolerate varroa somewhat longer, or can truly tolerate varroa over the long term. (So, what, if anything, happens if one shakes the whole small-cell colony onto fully-drawn "normal-sized" comb? And then what happens if one swaps out the queen? And so on, each move aimed at narrowing down the actual mechanism at work here.) Are small-cell beekeepers simply unwitting "SMR breeding program Do-It-Yourselfers"? If not, how would anyone know for sure? > You will continue to see varroa in your hives, the difference is your > hives will not crash because of it. The varroa population remain > maintained instead of overwhelming your bees. So your mite counts rise to a certain level each year, and then hover there? That's interesting and new information, as it would mean that SOME varroa are reproducing, but not many of them. The lack of any mite count records over time for even a single small-cell colony is a real impediment to the small-cell advocates gaining acceptance for their approach. > There is only one way to know for sure, its not through reading, its not > through listening to others advocate it, and it is certainly not through > the arguments about it, the only way is to find out for yourself OK, here's I would "find out for myself": a) Get some existing small-cell colonies that have been properly regressed by someone who knows how to do this, as my attempts at this failed. b) Drop them off at a legitimate research facility for them to record mite counts and monitor the colony while doing normal beekeeper maintenance, but no mite treatments. c) Sit back and wait for the results, which will be initially authoritative on the sole point of "do these colonies really survive varroa?". d) Run a second study after the first, where we swap combs in and out, swap queens in and out, and so on in an attempt to narrow down root causes, and, one hopes, show that we can, in the same colony, increase mite counts, and then lower them again by merely moving the colony between combs left over from various stages of regression. Or something. Monitoring a colony or three for mite drop and "survival" with the usual beekeeper maintenance, but without use of miticides would be an easy and very low-cost project to run. What studies have been done to date have stumbled on the "regression" step, resulting in some hard feelings on the part of the small-cell enthusiasts toward the researchers. U. Georgia is not too far from Sarasota, and I am quite sure that they will not mind a small project that arrives at their door fully funded and fully equipped. It would help to start with "completely regressed" colonies. It would also help to have some "transition" combs from some midpoint during the regression process for step (d). > and to keep a few small cell hives and keep them for more than just a year, > it takes a while to see the continued benefits. How does the colony survive during the period when one "can't see the benefits"? jim (Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are purely ceremonial) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:05:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, > When I found varroa was > still around on 4.9mm cell size I was not as interested. > One will never eliminate varroa from a colony, the trick is to find a way to help the bee deal with varroa without damaging the bees or their environment. The Primorsky Russian bees did this naturally long ago by natural selection, eliminating the weak genetics by attrition of colonies that were highly susceptible to varroa. The colonies that had a natural high resistance to varroa were the only colonies left to breed with. Dealing with varroa will cost one way or the other, dealing with it in a natural way will last longer and will harm the bees less. > Secret for Keith: > > Knowing what is going on in your bee hives is the real secret. Guessing what > is going on will get you in trouble every time. > There is a lot of guessing going on out there, even by researchers, mainly because of unknown factors. A beekeeper learns about what is going on inside a hive each time the top is popped. Thinking you know what is going on inside a hive can get you in trouble too. The only real secret is that the honey bee and it's environment is, for the most part, still mysterious. Keith still wondering where the commercial secret is to boasting colony individual bee population numbers are. The only ones I have received so far take from strong colonies to give to weak genetics making the strong weaker, combining colonies that reduce colony numbers, feed both pollen & honey which is what were all trying to produce from a colony and might spread disease, and using two queens in one hive. Also none of these increases individual bee population numbers except for maybe the two queen idea but even that you must factor in individual bee population numbers per queen. Yes there will be more bees per queen in a two queen colony. Now I am not sure what the etc. means but I would guess it is the real secret. The best way I have learned for increasing colony individual bee numbers is for a beekeeper to provide superior genetics, have a clean natural environment inside the hive, and let bees use as much pollen and nectar as the bees can bring in. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:19:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 29/09/04 18:08:46 GMT Daylight Time, scot@LINUXFROMSCRATCH.ORG writes: <> I don't know where you heard this, but I've had my colonies of SBB's (I assume that's what you mean) for several years now, and I've noticed no difference at all, even when I had one with a sister queen sitting next to them, on a solid bottom. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:59:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? Comments: To: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Just came across a most puzzling post in reading the activity on the BEE-L list that some have been monitoring here on the Organics List: It was posted by Jim Fischer this 29 Sept day: quote:"Are small-cell beekeepers simply unwitting "SMR breeding program Do-It-Yourselfers"? If not, how would anyone know for sure?" unnquote. Reply: If this is true, then what is really SMR bees and breeding program other then copying small cell beekeeping? Any comments................................. Jim Fischer then continued: OK, here's I would "find out for myself": a) Get some existing small-cell colonies that have been properly regressed by someone who knows how to do this, as my attempts at this failed. b) Drop them off at a legitimate research facility for them to record mite counts and monitor the colony while doing normal beekeeper maintenance, but no mite treatments. Reply: Gee, when we first shook down for second time Dr ERickson of the Tucson Lab came out and did a mite count and it was published in ABJ in the fall Sep Issue I think back in 1997. Then no one wanted to come back out........................I think..........because we felt when the following year came the count would be cut in half again and NO ONE SEEMED TO WANT TO KNOW ANYMORE!!! c) Sit back and wait for the results, which will be initially authoritative on the sole point of "do these colonies really survive varroa?". Reply: Sit back and wait...........gee, it's been 8 years going on 9 in 2005 now coming! How long does one wait1 d) Run a second study after the first, where we swap combs in and out, swap queens in and out, and so on in an attempt to narrow down root causes, and, one hopes, show that we can, in the same colony, increase mite counts, and then lower them again by merely moving the colony between combs left over from various stages of regression. Or something. Reply: Gee, we not having a problem anymore with mites.......................but who wants to know. All that is talked about is the cost and time in changing commercially, and to me either they will or they won't and yet, we an't using any dopes and many are into all sorts of various treatments.....and isn't that time and money too and much labor in applications? Monitoring a colony or three for mite drop and "survival" with the usual beekeeper maintenance, but without use of miticides would be an easy and very low-cost project to run. What studies have been done to date have stumbled on the "regression" step, resulting in some hard feelings on the part of the small-cell enthusiasts toward the researchers. Reply: But key here is gutta want to do it.....................and mite drop counts to me is for researchers with time. Me I/we got work to do now with bees again and no more time for tinkering in basics when everything is under control. Comments again, ...................as it seems we go thru this loop of commentary yearly depending upon the list doing the speaking from here to the Irish LIst in UK. So any more I just sit back and mostly listen. Good to see you guys/gals having fun with the retoric. In the end he who wins has bees to fill agric needs that are healthy.! Regards, Dee A. Lusby _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:10:49 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Flooding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I researched the Bee-L archives but didn't find anything specific to this problem. Two hives of mine were flooded this morning when a creek backed up and flooed a part of a farm that had never been flooded before, according to the farmer. This apparently was the remnant of the hurricane that hit Florida most recently. The water came up slowly and the hives were actually floating just above where they had been placed on cinder blocks and 4x4's, in three feet of water. There were a lot of bees that had moved up into the supers, awaiting rescue on the parts that remained above water. Sad to say the brood nest was soaked, and I can't say the queens survived. I waded out and retrieved the pieces and reassembled them on dry ground, cleaning out between a few frames here and there where there was an abundance of dead bees. I intend to secure the hives against mice, allow them to dry out as best they can, then determine if there is at least a nuc that I could pull out to babysit over the winter (I doubt it). With the balance of the woodenware I intend to retrive it and force air through it with a fan for a few days to dry it out, then store it over the winter and spread it out over other hives in the Spring to clean up. The comb is good, there is some capped honey (and some uncapped) but the flood water permeated the whole mess and I would not want to extract any of it until a strong colony had spent a week or two cleaning house. Any comments? -Flooded in NJ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:57:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: Now I am not sure what the etc. means but I would guess it is the real secret. Those considering beekeeping for a living need to spend time with a full time beekeeper and you will see a big difference between beekeeping books methods and the way we actually keep bees. General methods: If you know approx. when a honey flow is to take place you need to plan on having your hives at maximum strength at the start of the honey flow. Figure wrong (happens) and you have got a yard full of swarms hanging in the trees. I saw two yards of those I speak last year but luckily they were not my yards. ( 38 & 12 swarms in a single afternoon in those two yards) Over feeding causes many swarms especially for new beekeepers. We do drastic hive manipulations which cause queens to increase laying and to keep all hives in a yard as close in population to one another as possible so the strong does not rob the weak and all hives need a super at approx. the same time. I have spoke of these things before on BEE-L and most consider the manipulations to labor consuming and will cause the spread of disease. I agree with the labor consuming but do not see the spread of disease part as the frames and equipment come from my own operation and I consider each yard as one big living hive with drones moving freely between all hives (happens). The two most outer hives are always the strongest because of worker drifting. The etc. would take many posts to discuss but hope I have helped shed some light on the general methods many beekeepers which keep bees for honey production follow. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:02:35 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: M & T Weatherhead Subject: Re: Flooding In-Reply-To: <092920041910.5849.415B08B8000D8BB9000016D9216028065199019D0C9C079B9D9A0C@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having pulled a few hives out of floods, luckily not mine, I have seen the damage that has occurred to hives. The frames will have silt in them and as such the bees will probably reject them. This has been the case in the flooded hives I have seen. Best to just get rid of the frames. If you want to use the wood outsides again, cut out the wax. The frames will clean up OK and can be re-wired and new foundation put in them. The supers can be cleaned up. A high pressure water blaster is best to get them clean. The bees will accept them then. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 28/09/04 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:03:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Small cells and varroa Comments: cc: barry@birkey.com, phwells@earthlink.net, rwthorp@ucdavis.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Keith Malone chimed in on the small cell size discussion with the following comment: >One will never eliminate varroa from a colony, the trick is to find >a way to help the bee deal with varroa without damaging the bees >or their environment. The Primorsky Russian bees did this naturally >long ago by natural selection, eliminating the weak genetics by >attrition of colonies that were highly susceptible to varroa. The >colonies that had a natural high resistance to varroa were the >only colonies left to breed with. Dealing with varroa will cost one >way or the other, dealing with it in a natural way will last >longer and will harm the bees less. The honey bees we studied on Santa Cruz Island were quite small. Rob Page accompanied Robbin Thorp and me on one of our trips and often remarked about the small size of the island bees. I measured the cells and obtained a 5.0 mm distance. Nevertheless, all the island bees now well may have succumbed to the varroa mite. By contrast, feral bees here in Santa Barbara that we monitor continue to do quite well with no treatment of any kind, in line with Keith's comment. Earlier I covered that point, now available as the following web site item: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjsep1999.htm I measured cell sizes for one such feral colony and obtained 5.3 mm, larger than the cell sizes found on the island combs. It would appear that small cell size would not explain the difference in colony survival between island and mainland. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************* * The most formidable weapon against errors of any kind * is reason. * Thomas Paine, 1794 ************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:25:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: josh jaros Subject: Re: Flooding In-Reply-To: <092920041910.5849.415B08B8000D8BB9000016D9216028065199019D0C9C079B9D9A0C@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Curtis, I've had to deal with flooded hives in the past. If you do still have a couple of nucs, they won't be able to clean up the frames that were flooded. Eventually they will die out unless you feed them corn syrup or something else, especially since it sounds that many did die. Also, the stress they have gone through will make them susceptible to disease so supplemental feed is a must ASAP. Any frames that need work should be put on very strong colonies. It will take a while to clean them up. Don't wait for long or mold will start on them. Also, if you wait until they dry the comb will turn black and hard and you will have to throw them or scrape them off, if you have that kind of foundation. Don't know why but the dirty water leaves a residue on them that seems to harden and prevent the bees from doing anything with it, unless they are cleaned ASAP. Usually the queen will get up on the top unless she was under an excluder, so I would guess you have a couple of nuc! s, but do check to make certain, she should be easy to find. If you had clean frames I would just transfer on to them and leave the cleaning to strong hives. I don't think it would be a bad idea to feed those strong colonies to help with the cleaning either. I don't expect there is any kind of a honeyflow there in NJ. Good luck. Josh Jaros --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:41:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Yet Another New Sweetene/thixotropic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In message , Dave Cushman writes >What about vibration to >liquefy the thixotropic gel type honeys? I had a friend who occasionally got ling honey at home and one year his wife said he spent hours stirring each cell before extracting. I have also heard of people leaving the extractor on a long time. -- James Kilty :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:52:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim said: quote:"Are small-cell beekeepers simply unwitting "SMR breeding program Do-It-Yourselfers"? If not, how would anyone know for sure?" unnquote. Reply: If this is true, then what is really SMR bees and breeding program other then copying small cell beekeeping? Any comments................................. Dee asks about SMR. SMR refers to bees which for some unknown reason varroa as trouble reproducing in the brood. I have had SMR bees which had zero varroa drop in August but SMR is only a trait and not a line of bees. Breeding from survivors (as Dee did) did not work for the Baton Rouge Bee lab years ago. Breeding from survivors did not work for me *at the start* as all died in two years. Until I started using survivor stock produced at the Baton Rouge Bee lab (SMR , Russian and low PMIB )I had no success. I now see the same success Dee does without the expense, labor and years with making a profit the Lusby's went through. I watched with great interest the Baton Rouge Bee lab work through the varroa problem. Because Harris & Harbo were not seeing success breeding from survivors they decided to look further and discovered both the SMR & PMIB trait. Although bees with the SMR trait can be found in many lines and the trait enhanced through breeding I seriously do not believe the SMR trait is the reason for Dee's success. In all fairness I know of not one other beekeeper which did as Dee & Ed did and did not fail. My survivor project failed! By the second fall untreated hives were dying. Not until I started bringing in stock from the bee lab and using the principals used by the Baton Rouge Bee Lab did the situation change. I have been working with another beekeeper which is enjoying the same success I am and reached his success through a closed breeding program using some of the same Baton Rouge stock in addition to survivor stock. One can not argue with the results of the Lusby's. I would have liked to have seen a paper trail but the Lusby's have none. Myself and the other beekeeper I am working with know why our bees tolerate varroa through testing we have done. We have got a bee which will tolerate varroa. The bee was found by putting varroa pressure on the bees. Not even the bee lab applys varroa pressure. Does a member of the list know of one researcher in the world looking for a varroa tolerant bee which leaves full frames ( 1 to 2) of drone comb in the hive for the varroa to breed in to increase varroa pressure. We have found when varroa pressure is put on many of the commercial lines on the market the bees crash the first year. One of the best commercial lines in the U.S. was tested this year by applying varroa pressure. Only one hive was still alive out of 38 in August. All researchers I talk to and read about place a certain number of varroa in the hive at the start of the project which is ok but lets place a frame or two of drone brood in also ( do not remove ) and find the real survivors! Jim said: c) Sit back and wait for the results, which will be initially authoritative on the sole point of "do these colonies really survive varroa?". Even a few sticky board test results sent to me at various times of the year would explain quite a bit as far as varroa load. Reply: Sit back and wait...........gee, it's been 8 years going on 9 in 2005 now coming! How long does one wait1 I agree with Dee. The fact they are alive untreated trumps the research. I am now interested in how much varroa pressure they can tolerate . Dee said: But key here is gutta want to do it.....................and mite drop counts to me is for researchers with time. For years many have called me "the mechanic". I test and then replace the lone auto defective part. The same result can be had by simply replacing parts till you stumble onto the defective part (common beekeeper method). Even though many times the defective part is replaced by replacing several parts at once with the replacing several parts at once system YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM PART WAS BUT YOU CAN NOT ARGUE WITH THE RESULTS AS THE TRUCK IS FIXED. A bit costly and time consuming but the truck is fixed. As I said before you can not argue wuth the Lusby's success and although Dee has an idea the reason for the success it is hard to say if success came from small cell, breeding or another undiscovered reason. Without testing I could only guess . My opinion: Without testing is like a blind man looking for a certain can of food in his cupboard. If he opens every can he will eventually find the can he was looking for. maybe he will find the can he is looking for on the first try. maybe not! Dee said: In the end he who wins has bees to fill agric needs that are healthy.! I agree! many beekeepers in the U.S. are being dealt fits this fall from varroa. I hear almost every day of beekeepers losing hives to varroa. I am proud to say I (like Dee) am not having varroa problems this year! was not always so! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 02:06:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Organicbeekeepers] Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jfischer@supercollider.com writes: What's so puzzling, Dee? I'm a big fan of "put up or shut up", high-stakes stud poker, and bake-offs. This is a openly stated attempt to smoke out someone who would be willing to rent or sell existing small-cell colonies and their comb for a fair price, and someone else who has the time/staff to accept a funded study. Your experience with the staff at Tucson was typical of the haphazard approach to testing what should be an easy thing to at least verify under "controlled conditions", if not verify/prove the exact mechanism(s) at work. Reply: Well, Jim, I/we had a signed contract with the USDA on that project for them to do the work with our bees on a technical exchange of information that unfortunately stated in it the bees and equipment that was loaned to them to do the work still belonged to us. It was a contract accepted and signed by regional headquarters in Albany Calif and had a few subcontracts attached to it, and a few interested ovreseas to participate. But was told when it ended, that politics had to go the other way for awhile due to money needed for the labs, so much seemingly was put aside. We however continued to do what we had started and presented to them on our own when the contract was originally written, and so accepted the overseas visits started to see what we were doing, which was basically what we had always done, to see if we could keep the bees alive that way following small cell, with just the change out of the comb size regressed back to old standard sizings, before enlargements began, while using no dopes. Heck, we even dropped the TM and storage stuff going to propolis patties, and then nothing. but you say: Your experience with the staff at Tucson was typical of the haphazard approach to testing what should be an easy thing to at least verify under "controlled conditions", if not verify/prove the exact mechanism(s) at work. Yes, you would think so and would have been done and should have been done, and we/I provided bees to look at in the field and even took many nucs/equip to lab for own working yard on premises right at the lab itself, that were infact shown to other beekeepers during the 1990 AHPA meeting here in Tucson. I even went over and grafted for them queens that they put into own incubator at times because no one was there to do it so they would have queens to work with. I even videoed tapes at both lab and here for them to look at and monitor (I now have videos back here on thelytoky/mites disected assoc with foul done back then in late 1980s and early 1990s). Donated hand made foundation for a few years of small cell, and lab even sent some to friends in canada also for usage. Helped with foundation for local indian tribes too with the lab for research, but somehow they just couldn't do......don't know why, for we were doing it and it didn't seem hard to us. Jim continued: But the primary point here is that no one is going to "buy" results from a study unless the colonies are moved to the property of a research facility, and at least temporary control is ceded to the facility staff. In other words, we need to avoid any possible claim that someone cheated. Reply: Jim, to have close to 800 colonies going successfully now, and give to those, that when I do see them looking at our bees, don't know what they are looking at, is foolish now IMPOV. If they are that good and trained then let them do it. Regress the bees and just do it. Putting bees back on large comb, restarts the mites overproducing again. Been there, done that. Don't need a new kid now from college with stamp on back to say "Hey beekeeper lady let's see if you are talking straight". That point in time is past now. Nothing moves without contract like the first time....and in fact nothing moves for when the tests are done with the labs or what ever research facility. Then IT STILL HAS TO BE TESTED IN THE FIELD TO SEE IF IT WORKS COMMERCIALLY!!! This we are now already doing.....so why go backwards in time to restart what....for how long playing games......playing games is over! Besides the Tucson lab already has shown us what can be done................right? Jim Fischer contined back to me: > Sit back and wait...........gee, it's been 8 years going on > 9 in 2005 now coming! How long does one wait Golly gosh, I dunno why I have to be the one think up a simple study methodology and challenge the entire industry to prove or disprove what has been talked about endlessly, my excuse is that I've been busy doing other stuff. :) What's everyone else's excuse? Reply: Sorry, you are late on the scene for this happening. Have you read the latest "Introductionary Study for Breeding Varroa Resistant Bees" 2004 done by the Swedish Beekeepijng Association? It's 193 pages long and final report is 27 pages adding to it. Afraid the work is almost already done now but helped by the EU and not USDA unfortunately to say.Maybe Allen Dick in Canada can give you a copy to read or Prof Frazier at Penn State. I think now from it those in Europe will make more strides while those here will just keep muddering. Jim replying to me again: > But key here is gutta want to do it... Well, I agree that we really oughta wanna. I wanna. I got cash, I can twist arms, and I got time. Reply: Sorry you are so late in starting to want to. But the ball is already rolling and USA is now several years behind those keeping abreast with are overseas friends, with the exception of a few key beekeepers on the Organics List I have been talking with for some time now. Jim Fischer replying again: > ..................and mite drop counts > to me is for researchers with time. Me I/we got work to > do now with bees again and no more time for tinkering > in basics when everything is under control. So you don't even gather data from your own colonies, yet you moan and groan that someone else won't come and do it for you? Reply: Didn't say that exactly I don't think. I have been told so many times I am not a researcher that good counts have to be done, and our bees are doing so well, so that for so few counted it is detrimental workload to that workload really needing to be done, and also the fact that since I wasn't believed in the beginnning when I was counting and keeping track, that I see no reason to do it, for those that would want it verified to see if I did it right to begin with, so let the ones so educated with stamp of approval do it. And if they won't come back.........................which is a for real scene having happened.........then the counts aren't really needed......................for NO ONE in authority really wants to know the truth...............and it has been said the truth is out there!!!!! But controlling the situation then means like with other agricultural control............the money chain ends......and I don't think that is wanted........no matter how bad our industry gets!!!! now you tell me.........................How can this be????? Jim replies: Now I >>am<< confused!! :) Reply: So am I. It is said a long-term solution is needed, but no one said it would be willingly accepted and used if it envolved work.........such is the pesticide treadmill of life and quick-fixes!!!!!! Very best regards to you Jim: Dee A. Lusby :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:42:39 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle > If you know approx. when a honey flow is to take place you need to plan on > having your hives at maximum strength at the start of the honey flow. You can know exactly. This way, you can avoid "drastic hive manipulations". and avoid the associated labor. I've been advocating tracking growing degree-days as a way to nail down blooms to within a few days for years now, and I've yet to find any other beekeeper even trying it. Discouraging. > We do drastic hive manipulations which cause queens to increase laying I'd love to hear what tricks you use, but my "secret" is that I admit that feeders and pollen patties must go on when snow is on the ground if one wants a maple crop, let alone a colony worthy of a pollination fee. I've yet to be able to convince the bees to mature from eggs to foragers any faster, so my equation is "feed goes in, bees come out". > and to keep all hives in a yard as close in population to one another as > possible Yeah, right. And every year, one can plan next years mistakes in reaction to this year's weather and errors. :) Me, I'm introspective about retrospection. jim (The bee is such a busy soul, She has no time for birth control. And that is why, in times like these, There are so many sons of bees!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:59:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: clear brood nest In-Reply-To: <003f01c4a633$dd68eac0$52bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & all > Some queens will lay eggs right on new foundation which > must really build a fire under the workers. If the workers have adequate access to 'spare' beeswax they can draw a sheet of foundation in an hour or so. If they have plenty of honey and nectar they can do prodigious feats... I had a colony once that drew 20 sides of foundation (B.S. size), stored stolen (robbed) honey and capped most of it in a day and a half. I have also seen eggs in part built comb (hens egg size) from a swarm of only a couple of hours. I have seen a reference to fitting pencil sized sausages of beeswax to top bars that the bees then draw into comb at a very fast rate. The various statements about time for cell cleaning and Jenter box cell cup acclimatization, confuse me a little... Are you using ordinary colonies to do this work or do you use swarm box methods with selected young bees ? I reckon the young bees only take 10 to 20 minutes to clean up cell cups and any grafted cups that are rejected can be re-grafted after ten minutes. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:46:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Small cells and varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "adrian m. wenner" > "I measured cell sizes for one such feral colony and obtained 5.3 > mm, larger than the cell sizes found on the island combs." This thread is proving extremely interesting and thought provoking ........but doesn't the above quote take us backwards? Hasn't the point been made that the cells in naturally built comb - as in a top-bar hive or a feral colony - are a RANGE of sizes, with smaller cells in the middle of the brood combs and larger cells towards the edges and on comb drawn for storage? Hasn't the implication been made that if early spring brood rearing is concentrated in the patches of smaller cells, spring build up of mites will be inhibited (if it is true that small cells provide too little space for mites to move freely around the pupa so that the number of viable mite offspring is less). Or have I misunderstood? If natural comb does show a range of cell sizes, then Adrian's recording of one particular cell size in feral colonies - presented as though that was constant throughout all the combs - does not help us. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:20:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Robert Brenchley" wrote (about increase3d aggressiveness on SBB/OMF): > I don't know where you heard this, but I've had my colonies of SBB's (I > assume that's what you mean) for several years now, and I've noticed no > difference at all I agree - no difference seen in any of my colonies. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:41:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? Hi Guys, There is something else at work with cell size beyond the factors involved with SMR. Bees in my small cell hives have been able to tolerate varroa mites without treatment. But when these same bees are placed on large cell comb, the varroa population increases. And some of these hives will display such symptoms as DWV or MWV by the end of the first season. These same large cell hives would be dead by the end of the second season without treatment. It may be interesting to note that I have seen some of the characteristics attributed to small cell size in large cell colonies on clean wax. Getting the pesticides out is a major factor to colony health. But it is the bees ability to detect and remove mite infected pupa that is related to cell size somehow. That cleansing just doesn't occur when bees are on the larger sized comb. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:21:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve l Subject: how late is too late to pull honey in MN ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello everyone - I need some advice. I had surgery in August and didnt get supers off when I should have. Now I am able, but wondering if I am too late to pull supers and feed them a little before winter.(Minnesota winter) So, should I pull all the supers and feed or leave them one super or what do you think ? I have hive top feeders and a dozen colonies. Thank you in advance for you help. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:04:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/09/04 20:09:00 GMT Daylight Time, topbarguy@HOTMAIL.COM writes: <> This is what I've noticed. I never saw bald brood until I started downsizing, then suddenly started seeing it regularly, with some pupae being chewed away. Somehow, the smaller cell size seems to accentuate a form of hygeinic behaviour. Regards, Rpbert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::