From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:48:07 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, BODY_ENHANCEMENT2,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98BA49051 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDK5012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0410A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 188760 Lines: 4196 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:21:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: SMR & PMIB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I received this email from a lurker and thought I should answer on BEE-L in case others are wondering. Lurker asked an excellent question. >For those of us who don't find acronyms easy to remember could you tell me what SMR & PMIB "mean"? SMR & PMIB represent parts of research being done at the Baton Rouge Bee Lab by Harbo & Harris. I was fortunate enough last January to get to talk to Dr. Harbo for about 45 minutes in Jacksonville about SMR & PMIB. I tried to keep on topic but Dr. Harbo asked about capensis and the conversation drifted in a different direction for about the last 15 minutes. When Harbo & Harris started trying to breed a bee which would tolerate varroa from survivors efforts failed. They then began to look closer at the brood varroa infestation. They began to examine sections of brood for varroa reproduction and found in certain hives varroa did not reproduce in brood. They named the trait SMR (suppressed mite reproduction). Reason still a mystery. My partner and I bought SMR breeder queens, raised daughters and introduced the trait in our lines. Sadly the daughter queens were bred to a point they were not the best of queens (which Harbo said they might be). In fact Dr. Harbo contacted through Glenn Apiaries all the beekeepers which had bought the instrumentally inseminated SMR breeder queens to say the queens (and daughters) were showing brood pattern problems. We saw the problems Dr. harbo talked about with all but the breeder queen from the red line. If you raise your own queens and want the SMR trait in your hives you can raise daughter queens from a Glenn Apiaries SMR breeder queen and open mate to your bees, buy SMR production queens from a queen producer or use a SMR drone source. Looking further Harbo & Harris began to rate hives (when looking for bees which will tolerate varroa) by PMIB (percentage of mites in brood). The results of the Harbo & Harris research on PMIB & varroa have not yet been published (to my knowledge). Dr. Harbo has explained the method for finding SMR & PMIB he uses to me but I have yet to try and find both SMR & PMIB in the bees we are looking at for varroa tolerance. Both SMR & PMIB are explained in greater detail at the Baton Rouge Bee Lab web site. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:53:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis & All, Beekeepers which have tried small cell have got different levels of success all over the charts which is the problem. Dennis said: Bees in my small cell hives have been able to tolerate varroa mites without treatment. For how long ( years)? Would you consider placing a frame of drone brood in one small cell hive for the entire season and reporting back? Feel free to remove the drone brood if you see the small cell bees can not handle the extra varroa load as no since in killing the hive. What type of varroa load do you see in late fall before brood rearing shuts down in natural fall or eyther roll? Dennis said: But when these same bees are placed on large cell comb, the varroa population increases. By what numbers when tested as above around the same time? Dennis said: And some of these hives will display such symptoms as DWV or MWV by the end of the first season. If you are seeing DWV or MWV I would say these hives are approaching threshold and the bees you are using have not got any varroa tolerance at all and should be removed from your program. These are not bees you received from Dee you have put on large cell are they? I imagine you are also seeing varroa on bees in the above hive. Dennis said: These same large cell hives would be dead by the end of the second season without treatment. You describe most commercial production queens. Two years without treatment is about the maximum. We have actually seen commercial production queens (sold in U.S.) bought in spring and started in nucs so varroa infested by fall they could not be saved by treatment of any kind. Very few queen breeders are selecting for varroa tolerance. If they were I would not be having to take part in the search for a varroa tolerant bee. Dennis said: It may be interesting to note that I have seen some of the characteristics attributed to small cell size in large cell colonies on clean wax. Getting the pesticides out is a major factor to colony health. I agree! pesticide contaminated comb from both coumaphos & fluvalinate is real. Dennis said: But it is the bees ability to detect and remove mite infected pupa that is related to cell size somehow. That cleansing just doesn't occur when bees are on the larger sized comb. Interesting but does not follow what we know about hygienic behavior. Have you ever tested your bees for hygienic behavior by freezing a section of comb (to kill brood) and seeing the amount of time needed to remove the dead brood (24 or 48 hours)? Did the small cell bees remove all dead brood in 24 or 48 hours? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:11:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, > We have got a bee which will tolerate varroa. The bee was found by putting > varroa pressure on the bees. Not even the bee lab applys varroa pressure. > This reminds me of how I am looking for superior wintering genetic up here. I am putting winter pressure on the colonies I keep by not wrapping them, while other who try to keep bees through winter up here wrap theirs. I only know one other beekeeper up here who does not wrap for winter. Only a few of us are breeding bees and I am thinking putting this winter pressure on the bees will enhance and speed up my success. I could be wrong but I am giving it what I think is my best shot. > One of the best commercial lines in the U.S. was tested this year by > applying varroa pressure. Only one hive was still alive out of 38 in > August. > Am I safe in assuming that this one colony might be a good candidate for breeding then for varroa tolerance, I would really think so. > I agree with Dee. The fact they are alive untreated trumps the research. I > am now interested in how much varroa pressure they can tolerate . > This would be interesting but if what she and Ed are doing is successful why really should they waste commercial time to find this out. Besides, doing that would go against a key element in the small cell beekeeping method they have developed of culling any combs with more than ten percent drone cells. They have a method that works for them and as commercial beekeepers working to make a profit it simply would be foolish to change a method of keeping bees clean while making surplus honey. > As I said before you can not argue wuth the Lusby's success and although > Dee has an idea the reason for the success it is hard to say if success came > from small cell, breeding or another undiscovered reason. Without testing I > could only guess . > As you well know, Dee does not put all success onto just one reason but with a whole bee program of keeping them. Cell size, Nutrition, and BREEDING. Dee made a post on Organicbeekeepers in response to the message thread you are responding to here on Bee-L to Jim. Their achieves are public and anyone can read them. Dee explains on a post to Jim addressing this issue, I am satisfied that she gave it her best shot to the USDA in proving Her & Ed's methods. Read for your self her response for she can put it to you better than I what she wrote. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/message/12862 Researchers will continue to be guessing in studying small cells or Their small cell methods because they piece mill the research instead of using a whole bee keeping program. One part of the method without the rest will not give the whole answer or the truth. > I agree! many beekeepers in the U.S. are being dealt fits this fall from > varroa. I hear almost every day of beekeepers losing hives to varroa. I am > proud to say I (like Dee) am not having varroa problems this year! was not > always so! > Ah yes, but the question now is, How many seasons have you been not having varroa problems? Dee & Ed, you know, are now going on without varroa problems going on nearly a decade. How much proof do they need to prove their simple methods? Many successful people goes with what works and then continues to copy it. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:11:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, > Those considering beekeeping for a living need to spend time with a full > time beekeeper and you will see a big difference between beekeeping books > methods and the way we actually keep bees. > Yes, this is really so true. That is what I did when I first started beekeeping. I spent most all my first summer beekeeping with one of the most prominent commercial beekeepers and his partner, Small for a commercial beekeeper in the lower 48, but one of the largest in Alaska keeping around 400 hives. This set me up to manage bees unlike a hobbyist and to work at wintering bees unlike most beekeepers do up here. > Over feeding causes many swarms especially for new beekeepers. > Yes and it can cause other things to happen also, such as interrupting foraging habits and if fed to long could cause sugar syrup to get into places where you would rather have honey. I > agree with the labor consuming but do not see the spread of disease part as > the frames and equipment come from my own operation and I consider each yard > as one big living hive with drones moving freely between all hives > (happens). > This is also true and disease is just a fact of life to be dealt with accordingly, pretty much the small stuff that can't be sweated to much. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:16:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Liz Corbett Subject: NY state gets a registered formic acid treatment (sort of) New York State with NOD Apiary Products USA Inc. applied for and received from the EPA a Special Local Needs (SLN) registration for Mite-AwayII Single Application Formic Acid Pad. It was granted September 17 (SLN No. NY-040006)and the first truck load is being delivered to various NY beekeepers on Monday, October 4. NY State already had Section 18s in place for Checkmite+ and ApiLife Var, and registrations for Apistan and Sucrocide (Sucrose Octanoate Ester), so documentation of the need and requests from the industry were required for the EPA to even consider the application. The EPA did not want to support a SLN since the Section 3(full EPA registration) is scheduled for completion by December 26. However, they were convinced to support the issue of a restricted SLN: apply before October 31,04 and only to be used by beekeepers in NY with 500 or more hives. To meet these restrictions Mite-AwayII will not be shipped after October and a minimum order is a half pallet(480 pads). Mite-AwayII is a pre-packaged, ready-to-use food grade formic acid treatment. For more information check out the website at www.miteaway.com or call 866-483-2929. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:24:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle Comments: cc: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <200409291630.i8TAxvig021560@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday 29 September 2004 12:22 pm, James Fischer wrote: > Scot Mc Pherson said: > > Small Cell beekeeping is one wholistic front to keeping bees well. > > Its one of part of the whole darwin approach. > > One question which I have never had answered coherently is > "How does one know that it is the small cells that are allowing > the bees to tolerate varroa, rather than just the 'Darwin factor'?" > There is no where that I have said that SC is the solution, I have only stated that it is one of several aggregate approches that are considered and followed. If you take bees and allow them to build their own combs, they tend to build small cell or something approximating it. Taking those same bees that build not quite small cell, and starting them over again in a fresh and foundationless hive a 2nd time one finds that the bees will continue to build even smaller combs. I have cought feral swarms that when left to their own devices have built combs that were a MAXimum of 4.9ish mm in the brood nest. I have taken MY bees which have built 5.0-5.1ish cell and placed them in fresh foundationless homes and they also reduced thier core brood areas further. Amazing little bees and its amazing to watch what happens when you let it happen. 2ndly, its not "just" the darwin factor. Small Cell is a part of 'the darwin factor' not the other way around. In fact ALL aspects of beekeeping and in fact LIFE are part of 'the darwin factor'. The question is whether your practices are long term healthy or detrimental to the whole. Its a hard picture to fathom, but a darwin viewpoint is a great deal grander than what most poeople are accustomed to. Eventually all weakness will be squashed, nature makes sure of that, the difference is whether we let nature do her job, or we hinder her (hinder is really an intermediate term). If we continue to hinder nature's purpose, then we end up where we are now, with an imminent collapse of the majority of a species' population. You have to ask yourself, do you want to keep weak bees or strong bees. Nature sorts them out for you doing the selective work for you, and all you have to do is reap the benefits of her work. Through our use of modern medicine, pharmaceuticals, and deterent/poisonous chemicals in various aspects of our lives and beekeeeping specifically since this is the topic of this discussion, we have actually AIDED nature, but not to our benifit. We have aided nature in selection by weeding out weaknesses in the pests and diseases that afflict us and our living friends. Nature, through us, has removed the weaknesses in pests and diseases. We now have pests and diseases that are no longer susceptible to our treatments, forcing us to come up with new treatments for all of our ailments. This in turn is just giving nature another tool to weed out more weaknesses in our adversaries. This is darwinism, this is nature, and this is life. It is why we have evolved into humans, and why bees have evolved into bees. The lines of our most ancient ancestry were effected and selected by nature, in which each new strength helps to compete, while each weakness is weeded out one or more at a time. New forms of stress factors and challenges to survival will continue to be placed upon us and all living things. This game does not only include our friends, but also our neighbors which happen to be our challenges (varroa, cancer, polio, etc etc etc). This is how we are where we are today, both in modern medicine, and beekeeping. If we continue providing challenges for our ailments to overcome, we will continue to see our ailments overcome each barrier we place in front of it because WE KILL THE WEAK with each treatment aiding nature do her job in selecting the strong. THIS IS >>> THE DARWIN FACTOR <<<. More commonly known as evolution. Now to answer your question strictly related to bees and small cell; small cell does prove to be a large part of the varroa management factor in our operations. By point: 1) When bees are raised on small cell brood combs, their brood cycle is reduced by 1 or 2 days compared to bees on 5.4mm foundation. This reduces the length of the number of brood cycles a female mite can complete, and therefore reducing the growth rate of varroa populations. 2) Varroa like any other parasite relies on good sources of nutrition. Large bees produce more hormones and nutrient's than small bees. The varroa mite has exhaustively been documented to prefer drones, and select as a 2nd choice large worker cells, leaving smaller cells as a last alternative. This is part of the darwin factor, the varroa mite has evolved with natural selection along with the rest of the living world. Those practices which work best and help lines of varroa compete with other lines have succeeded. 3) bees on small cell show evidence of certain hygenic activities that their cousins (queen sister's brood) placed on large cell do not. The bees recongize a worker cell that is infested with varroa and they chew the cell out, pincing the varroa. The dead bee is later removed during house cleaning periods. These practices are darwin factors as well, and what has allowed the honey bees to continue to survive and evolve with its challenges. The bees didn't just start doing this, its part of what they already have ingrained in their ancenstry. Even supposing it IS a new activity of the bees, its something that allows the bees to continue playing the game of life. It is never-the-less something you do not see occuring with any regularity occuring within large cell hives. > In other words, assuming that we accept some of the credulity-stretching > claims made by some small-cell advocates (that they never use ANY > treatments at all My only hive tools are my pocket knife and a shim of scrap wood. You either have to accept or disbelieve that fact. That's entirely up to you, but generally when one decides to disbelieve a bald statement like that, it probably because you have trust issues. For what its worth, I don't have any reason to lie about this. Why would I advocate something if it were not working? This makes no sense, and it generally means that the incredulity you experience is due to preconceptions you have precipitated yourself. > and never lose a small-cell hive for ANY reason) Who said that? In fact that's probably on the other end of the spectrum of what we are discussing. Of course we are going to loose hives, it part of the darwin factor, or evolution. The weak and failing die and the strong and surviving compete. What we DO experience on the other hand is that once the strong lines have established themselves both within our hives and have imprinted their legacy in the surrounding gene pool that we DO have a larger majority of surviving, and competitive pools of bees. > , are we > seeing the direct result of smaller cells, or are we merely seeing the > direct result of letting 80% of one's colonies die, and breeding from the > stock that can either tolerate varroa somewhat longer, or can truly > tolerate varroa over the long term. I'd say both and all else you failed to state here. Everything is part of evolution, stresses, successes, strengths and weakness. How can you say that bees can't tolerate varroa, varroa isn't some new breed spontaneously becoming an epidemic, its a breed of pest that has been around for quite a long time, longer than fathomable by many folks. The bees we have here in the USA have at some point or points in their ancestry had to deal with varroa and its ancestry since the genesis of their respective species. Its part of who the honey bee is, its part of their environment that shaped and shapes them whether past and present. Its one of the stresses that helped the honey bee become who it is today, and will continue to shape its evolution during its tenure on our planet. Further is the varroa is successully eradicated (not remotely likely), another stress factor will fill the void and the cycle will begin anew. > (So, what, if anything, happens if one > shakes the whole small-cell colony onto fully-drawn "normal-sized" comb? The bees may reject it and abscond or squander. They may lay in it, and in watching through several complete brood cycles, one sees that the bees' hygenic habits change for the worse. They become lazy, inverse to them becoming more vigorous as they are returned to smaller sizes. > And then what happens if one swaps > out the queen? And so on, each move aimed at narrowing down the actual > mechanism > at work here.) Of course changing the queen will change the character of the hive, I am not even sure why you would bring this up. What will happen? Who can say, changing the queen in any hive is the same as changing the queen in any other hive. Its a weighted crap shoot. > > Are small-cell beekeepers simply unwitting "SMR breeding program > Do-It-Yourselfers"? > If not, how would anyone know for sure? Yes they most certainly are. They question you probably SHOULD have asked is whether these new SMR characteristics will continue to be expressed if one returns the bees to large cell hives. That answer is most likely -- sometimes. > > You will continue to see varroa in your hives, the difference is your > > hives will not crash because of it. The varroa population remain > > maintained instead of overwhelming your bees. > > So your mite counts rise to a certain level each year, and then hover > there? I didn't say they rise and hover, I said they remain managed. > That's interesting and new information, as it would mean that SOME > varroa are reproducing, but not many of them. Of course, if they didn't do so, they would not exist at all now would they? Large cell beekeeping isn't a major part of the bees' ancestry, its a recent event which has effected their recent short term adaptation, but isn't part of their ancient evolution. The mite didn't just spontaneously occur, its simply found a new weakness to exploit because of our dickering with the natural way of the bees. Just as us providing chemical and other treatments has given nature another tool to exploit weakness in the varroa. > The lack of any mite count > records over time for even a single small-cell colony is a real impediment > to the small-cell advocates gaining acceptance for their approach. If mite counts are not the issue but the bees' ability to manage its coexistence with varroa, why would mite numbers be important? Not knowing the number is not an impediment at all to small cell advocates. We are already practicing sound successful methods of operation. Why do you reject something that works? Just because you don't have the numbers? That's pretty silly wouldn't you agree? If a boat floats, it floats. If it sinks it sinks. > > There is only one way to know for sure, its not through reading, its not > > through listening to others advocate it, and it is certainly not through > > the arguments about it, the only way is to find out for yourself > > OK, here's I would "find out for myself": > > a) Get some existing small-cell colonies that have been > properly regressed by someone who knows how to do this, > as my attempts at this failed. > > b) Drop them off at a legitimate research facility for > them to record mite counts and monitor the colony > while doing normal beekeeper maintenance, but no > mite treatments. Read the response to C > c) Sit back and wait for the results, which will be initially > authoritative on the sole point of "do these colonies > really survive varroa?". Actually, if the bees survive, then THIS would answer whether the bees survive. Numbers would be moot, because the bees are still there or they are not. What would be a more appropriate measure of the success of varroa (and pest/disease) manageability is the measure of strength of the hive and its production and whether its still there tomorrow. > d) Run a second study after the first, where we swap combs > in and out, swap queens in and out, and so on in an attempt > to narrow down root causes, and, one hopes, show that we > can, in the same colony, increase mite counts, and then > lower them again by merely moving the colony between combs > left over from various stages of regression. Or something. Again, the result is what's important. Evolution has already performed these tests, just because you don't comprehend the current results (which is simply a matter of survival and competion and has nothing to do with numbers), does not mean that the results are not conclusive. Numbers on paper do not measure whether a hive will survive and compete or not, the only thing that can do that is the continued success or failure of the bees. We should stop monitoring the varroa and perhaps start monitoring the bees? How's that catch you? > Monitoring a colony or three for mite drop and "survival" with the usual > beekeeper > maintenance, but without use of miticides would be an easy and very > low-cost project > to run. What studies have been done to date have stumbled on the > "regression" step, > resulting in some hard feelings on the part of the small-cell enthusiasts > toward the researchers. Why would it cause hard feelings? Those of us that survive will continue while those who do not, quite simply do not. I am not here to play games, I am here to live. > > U. Georgia is not too far from Sarasota, and I am quite sure that they will > not mind a small project that arrives at their door fully funded and fully > equipped. > It would help to start with "completely regressed" colonies. It would also > help to have some "transition" combs from some midpoint during the > regression process for step (d). > > > and to keep a few small cell hives and keep them for more than just a > > year, it takes a while to see the continued benefits. > > How does the colony survive during the period when one "can't see the > benefits"? So are you saying because you don't understand the successes of bees that the percieved benfits aren't forthcoming? Sounds like more silliness to me. > > jim (Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but > my duties are purely ceremonial) Ceremony and perception sometimes bleed into one another. Are you going to continually and ceremoniously be the devil's advocate while people genuinely perceive you to speak truth? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 04:49:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: josh jaros Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle In-Reply-To: <200409291624.58612.scot@linuxfromscratch.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Scot wrote, "This is darwinism, this is nature, and this is life. It is why we have evolved into humans, and why bees have evolved into bees. The lines of our most ancient ancestry were effected and selected by nature, in which each new strength helps to compete, while each weakness is weeded out one or more at a time. New forms of stress factors and challenges to survival will continue to be placed upon us and all living things. This game does not only include our friends, but also our neighbors which happen to be our challenges (varroa, cancer, polio, etc etc etc). This is how we are where we are today, both in modern medicine, and beekeeping. If we continue providing challenges for our ailments to overcome, we will continue to see our ailments overcome each barrier we place in front of it because WE KILL THE WEAK with each treatment aiding nature do her job in selecting the strong. THIS IS >>> THE DARWIN FACTOR <<<. More commonly known as evolution." We are not looking at evolution here at all. You say there are "new strength(s)" but no such strengths have been created. The proper scientific term is natural selection. The strengths that we are desiring as beekeepers, have always been there, they are not new. The DNA of the desired bees contains certain strings that we desire and they were already contained from the beginning. This is proven by the fact that many different beekeepers have developed their own line of survivors all around the world. There is no other explanation other than that the bees already contained the information. Josh Jaros --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:23:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > One of the best commercial lines in the U.S. was tested this year by > applying varroa pressure. Only one hive was still alive out of 38 in August. Keith asks: Am I safe in assuming that this one colony might be a good candidate for breeding then for varroa tolerance, I would really think so. Yes! There are two schools of thought. 1. put as many colonies as you can out, leave alone and breed from the survivors. With varroa this method did not work years ago as varroa load changes for many different reasons which we still do not understand. ( Grandpa and great grandpa beekeepers recommended the above method to their offspring. Two of my close friends lost close to two thousand hives without finding a survivor in 1990 and 1993.) The above method is working now with new gentics added to the pot. 1a. Do the above but add varroa pressure to speed the process up. Only being tried over the last five years and would never have been tried in the late 80's or 90's. Thanks to better genetics we are seeing faster and better results. 2. Do the above and then look at the colony and try to find the reason for the varroa tolerance. Researcher method. Harbo & Harris method. For the researcher Keith the colony would be a candidate for testing using known methods to determine (if possible) why the colony is still alive. Then if the daughter queen is as varroa tolerant as the queen mother. Then the colony would move into the program. To keep balance all the above needs done until we reach our goals. Keith said: This would be interesting but if what she and Ed are doing is successful why really should they waste commercial time to find this out. There have been many failures trying to use the principals laid out by the Lusby's ( I can provide names of beekeepers). How hard is a small amount of standard testing to back up claims ? Certainly not hard or rocket science. I can assure most on the list researchers exist which could take the mystery out of why small cell hives are surviving as we are told through methods in use today. If a grant was made available the research could get done. A recent application for varroa researched was lost because a prominent beekeeping book author wrote a letter to the grant people saying varroa tolerance was not an inheritable trait. The grant was not given. It is sad that precious beekeeping research money was lost by the ignorance of a single person. I believe within five years heritable varroa tolerance will be proven without question. I would entertain a discussion on BEE-L with a researcher which believes I am wasting my time and the survivor trait is not inheritable. Join the BEE-L list and use an alias if you like. Around 20 or so famous researchers belong already and use an alias the moderators tell me. And yes they do keep your secret from the members of BEE-L! I have got a few ideas of their id's . It is my opinion they only post on rare occasions. I admire Medhat & Zach for not being afraid to post under their real names! I am already convinced varroa tolerance is inheritable but I have seen the research first hand (research not available yet to the general public). In fact we have got queens of the bee ( which survive varroa) for which a patent has been applied for in our yards. Possible Lusby partial success reason: My personal opinion ( and several researchers) is that varroa is effected by the high temps of the desert in Arizona. We know from research that varroa is effected by high temperature. Research at raising hive temps to a certain level have been successful at killing many varroa. We know now that the small hive beetle is effected by very dry years and less of a problem in dry years but comes back in wet years. Many believe the spread of AHB has been halted *eastward* on a large scale by the difference in humidity I believe from memory (recent articles published in the American Bee Journal). Keith said: Besides, doing that would go against a key element in the small cell beekeeping method they have developed of culling any combs with more than ten percent drone cells. Lets put the "hammer down" and see if the small cell colony is simply limping along or truly varroa tolerant. Try one hive with a full frame of drone comb or at least 20 % & up drone comb. After all a colony can slip a large number of drone cells in when you are not looking such as when the honey flow is on when you might not be looking in the brood chamber for weeks. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 19:32:33 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: small cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Josh wrote: >>There is no other explanation other than that the bees already = contained the information.<< Well actually there could be another explaination, a lot of bee = behaviour appears to be learnt by the bees and this could also be the = case in combating Varroa - in fact a lot of evidence seems to point in = this direction. =20 Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:26:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? Hi Bob and Everyone, >For how long ( years)? Would you consider placing a frame of drone brood in >one small cell hive for the entire season and reporting back? Feel free to >remove the drone brood if you see the small cell bees can not handle the >extra varroa load as no since in killing the hive. I've had bees on small cell for 4 years. I wouldn't mind putting a drone comb in a small cell hive and leaving it there. But I have an equivalent test underway in my top bar hives. These hives have about 40% small cell comb overall and have lots of large cell/drone comb. The Lusbys and their promotion of small cell beekeeping showed me how important comb is to colony health. My top bar hives have extended that perspective by showing me how broodnest structure relates to colony function and why small cell comb works. So I no longer focus much on small cell beekeeping. There's just too much stuff entangled with an erroneous premise. For details see: http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/musin.htm >What type of varroa load do you see in late fall before brood rearing shuts >down in natural fall or eyther roll? My small cell hives have consistently dropped about 1 to 2 mites/week. >By what numbers when tested as above around the same time? (mite increase >in large cell hives) I split 4 colonies of bees from small cell hives into hives with 5.4mm comb. By the end of the season one of these hives was showing DWV and MWV. I saw plenty of mites in the other large cell hives. I didn't get a mite count from them as my interest was in seasonal bee size. And the mite buildup merely confirmed my experience with mites before using small cell. At the same time, my small cell hives continued to preform as in previous seasons. >If you are seeing DWV or MWV I would say these hives are approaching >threshold and the bees you are using have not got any varroa tolerance at >all and should be removed from your program. That's the interesting part. The same bees, in the same yard, showed completely opposite responce to varroa depending upon cell size. And that's not news as I have tried a variety of commercial selections on small cell with equally good results. And I think this is great news as beekeepers can take the best bee they have and get great results without having to start the selection process from scratch. No need to loose all those characteristics by passing the selection process through the mite tolerant genetic bottleneck. >These are not bees you received from Dee you have put on large cell are >they? I imagine you are also seeing varroa on bees in the above hive. I monitored my Lusbees for a season and didn't find any significant difference in mite tolerance between them and the other commercial selections on small cell comb. Other selections had characteristics I preferred over the Lusbees. So I replaced them. The large cell bees were an assorted lot of Russian, SMR, NWC and Weaver stock. >You describe most commercial production queens. Two years without treatment >is about the maximum. We have actually seen commercial production queens >(sold in U.S.) bought in spring and started in nucs so varroa infested by >fall they could not be saved by treatment of any kind. Very few queen >breeders are selecting for varroa tolerance. If they were I would not be >having to take part in the search for a varroa tolerant bee. I have tried the following stock on a limited basis on small cell, Strachan NWC and Russian; Miska Italian and Carniolan; Weaver Buckfast,All American, Russian and Harbo(SMR); Bolling Caucasion, Glenn Russian, Carniolan, Minnesota Hygienic Italian and SMR; Lusbees Black and Yellow; USDA Russia; a York queen or two; my own mutts; and a couple of queens of Ohio Queen Breeders stock from California. Did I forget anybody? :>) >Interesting but does not follow what we know about hygienic behavior. Have >you ever tested your bees for hygienic behavior by freezing a section of >comb (to kill brood) and seeing the amount of time needed to remove the >dead brood (24 or 48 hours)? Before my small cell experience, I focused on selecting bees by single traits like hygienic behavior. I used the pin prick method rather than freezing them. Yet, none of my 'hygienic' hives demonstrated the slightest mite tolerance. I searched for damaged mites using a hand lens and think I might have seen a couple at best. :>) I believe this broodnest cleasning behavior, seen when bees are placed on small cell comb, is a seasonal activity and is not directly related to hygienic behavior. All my bees have demonstated it when on small cell. None have demonstrated when on large cell. And a hand lens isn't needed to locate damaged mites. They are essentially all damaged and the damage can be seen with the bare eye at 3 feet. Selecting for hygienic behavior is no longer a criteria for me. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 11:46:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Scot & All, >If you take bees and allow them to build their own combs, they tend to build small cell or something approximating it. Our experience has been they build the approx. size comb from which they swarmed from as we catch many of the swarms from out own bees and have checked. At times larger cell. >Now to answer your question strictly related to bees and small >cell; small cell does prove to be a large part of the varroa management factor in our operations. By point: 1) When bees are raised on small cell brood combs, their brood cycle is reduced by 1 or 2 days compared to bees on 5.4mm foundation. This reduces the length of the number of brood cycles a female mite can complete, and therefore reducing the growth rate of varroa populations. Certainly a possible hypothesis but not one generally accepted by reaserchers. 2) Varroa like any other parasite relies on good sources of nutrition. Large bees produce more hormones and nutrient's than small bees. The varroa mite has exhaustively been documented to prefer drones, and select as a 2nd choice large worker cells, leaving smaller cells as a last alternative. Although I agree in general. We have NEVER been able to determine why varroa prefers drone brood. Cells could or could not be part of the reason. Different JGH is also a hypothesis. 3) bees on small cell show evidence of certain hygenic activities that their cousins (queen sister's brood) placed on large cell do not. First I have ever heard of the above small cell hypothesis. I am from the "show me state". I will have to be shown the above before I buy in but will keep an open mind. The above implys that if I take my strain of Italian bees and downsize onto small cell certain hygienic activites will start to happen. Been there done that and did not happen. .> The bees recongize a worker cell that is infested with varroa and they chew the cell out, pincing the varroa. The dead bee is later removed during house cleaning periods. This behavior has been observed in bees on all cell sizes. > It is never-the-less something you do not see occuring with any regularity occuring within large cell hives. I believe the genetics has more to do with the above than cell size. > How can you say that bees can't tolerate varroa, varroa isn't some new breed spontaneously becoming an epidemic, its a breed of pest that has been around for quite a long time, longer than fathomable by many folks. The bees we have here in the USA have at some point or points in their ancestry had to deal with varroa and its ancestry since the genesis of their respective species. The honey bee has been studied for hundreds of years. Regardless of Dee's hypothsis (explained by her on BEE-L years ago) that varroa has always been around in U.S. beekeeping and we just discovered varroa. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt through the beekeeping research done in the U.S. varroa was an introduced pest. ( 1987). With all due respect to Dee & others I would drop the *been around forever in U.S.* hypothesis. We also know when varroa jumped hosts from A.cerana to A.melifera and the location . Bob Its part of who the honey bee is, its part of their environment that shaped and shapes them whether past and present. Its one of the stresses that helped the honey bee become who it is today, and will continue to shape its evolution during its tenure on our planet. Further is the varroa is successully eradicated (not remotely likely), another stress factor will fill the void and the cycle will begin anew. > (So, what, if anything, happens if one > shakes the whole small-cell colony onto fully-drawn "normal-sized" comb? The bees may reject it and abscond or squander. They may lay in it, and in watching through several complete brood cycles, one sees that the bees' hygenic habits change for the worse. They become lazy, inverse to them becoming more vigorous as they are returned to smaller sizes. > And then what happens if one swaps > out the queen? And so on, each move aimed at narrowing down the actual > mechanism > at work here.) Of course changing the queen will change the character of the hive, I am not even sure why you would bring this up. What will happen? Who can say, changing the queen in any hive is the same as changing the queen in any other hive. Its a weighted crap shoot. > > Are small-cell beekeepers simply unwitting "SMR breeding program > Do-It-Yourselfers"? > If not, how would anyone know for sure? Yes they most certainly are. They question you probably SHOULD have asked is whether these new SMR characteristics will continue to be expressed if one returns the bees to large cell hives. That answer is most likely -- sometimes. > > You will continue to see varroa in your hives, the difference is your > > hives will not crash because of it. The varroa population remain > > maintained instead of overwhelming your bees. > > So your mite counts rise to a certain level each year, and then hover > there? I didn't say they rise and hover, I said they remain managed. > That's interesting and new information, as it would mean that SOME > varroa are reproducing, but not many of them. Of course, if they didn't do so, they would not exist at all now would they? Large cell beekeeping isn't a major part of the bees' ancestry, its a recent event which has effected their recent short term adaptation, but isn't part of their ancient evolution. The mite didn't just spontaneously occur, its simply found a new weakness to exploit because of our dickering with the natural way of the bees. Just as us providing chemical and other treatments has given nature another tool to exploit weakness in the varroa. > The lack of any mite count > records over time for even a single small-cell colony is a real impediment > to the small-cell advocates gaining acceptance for their approach. If mite counts are not the issue but the bees' ability to manage its coexistence with varroa, why would mite numbers be important? Not knowing the number is not an impediment at all to small cell advocates. We are already practicing sound successful methods of operation. Why do you reject something that works? Just because you don't have the numbers? That's pretty silly wouldn't you agree? If a boat floats, it floats. If it sinks it sinks. > > There is only one way to know for sure, its not through reading, its not > > through listening to others advocate it, and it is certainly not through > > the arguments about it, the only way is to find out for yourself > > OK, here's I would "find out for myself": > > a) Get some existing small-cell colonies that have been > properly regressed by someone who knows how to do this, > as my attempts at this failed. > > b) Drop them off at a legitimate research facility for > them to record mite counts and monitor the colony > while doing normal beekeeper maintenance, but no > mite treatments. Read the response to C > c) Sit back and wait for the results, which will be initially > authoritative on the sole point of "do these colonies > really survive varroa?". Actually, if the bees survive, then THIS would answer whether the bees survive. Numbers would be moot, because the bees are still there or they are not. What would be a more appropriate measure of the success of varroa (and pest/disease) manageability is the measure of strength of the hive and its production and whether its still there tomorrow. > d) Run a second study after the first, where we swap combs > in and out, swap queens in and out, and so on in an attempt > to narrow down root causes, and, one hopes, show that we > can, in the same colony, increase mite counts, and then > lower them again by merely moving the colony between combs > left over from various stages of regression. Or something. Again, the result is what's important. Evolution has already performed these tests, just because you don't comprehend the current results (which is simply a matter of survival and competion and has nothing to do with numbers), does not mean that the results are not conclusive. Numbers on paper do not measure whether a hive will survive and compete or not, the only thing that can do that is the continued success or failure of the bees. We should stop monitoring the varroa and perhaps start monitoring the bees? How's that catch you? > Monitoring a colony or three for mite drop and "survival" with the usual > beekeeper > maintenance, but without use of miticides would be an easy and very > low-cost project > to run. What studies have been done to date have stumbled on the > "regression" step, > resulting in some hard feelings on the part of the small-cell enthusiasts > toward the researchers. Why would it cause hard feelings? Those of us that survive will continue while those who do not, quite simply do not. I am not here to play games, I am here to live. > > U. Georgia is not too far from Sarasota, and I am quite sure that they will > not mind a small project that arrives at their door fully funded and fully > equipped. > It would help to start with "completely regressed" colonies. It would also > help to have some "transition" combs from some midpoint during the > regression process for step (d). > > > and to keep a few small cell hives and keep them for more than just a > > year, it takes a while to see the continued benefits. > > How does the colony survive during the period when one "can't see the > benefits"? So are you saying because you don't understand the successes of bees that the percieved benfits aren't forthcoming? Sounds like more silliness to me. > > jim (Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but > my duties are purely ceremonial) Ceremony and perception sometimes bleed into one another. Are you going to continually and ceremoniously be the devil's advocate while people genuinely perceive you to speak truth? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:52:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? Hi Guys, Just another thought. Keeping bees on small cell comb and gaining mite tolerance is a completely different cat than 'small cell beekeeping'. The Lusbys have invented a complete beekeeping philosopy call 'small cell beekeeping'. It's much more than just cell size and mite tolerance. It's based on an singular organic philosophy and has its own unique vocabulary. Almost every aspect of colony health, colony management and bee behavior is tied back to cell size. But a beekeeper doesn't have to be a 'small cell beekeeper' to get the benefits of keeping bees on small cell comb. The benefits are real. By the way, my best small cell hive has been consistently headed by an SMR queen. Not because of any difference in mite tolerance, its no longer an issue, but because of all the other characteristics. A close runner up is a NWC selection. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 15:08:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message > > "Robert Brenchley" wrote (about increased aggressiveness on SBB/OMF): > >I don't know where you heard this, but I've had my colonies of SBB's (I > >assume that's what you mean) for several years now, and I've noticed no > >difference at all > > I agree - no difference seen in any of my colonies. > > I disagree. I noticed some time ago that my colonies on open mesh floors seem less aggressive. I attributed it to the bees becoming used to light entering the hive and so not sending guards to investigate when light comes in from above. Similarly my top bar hive has always been totally non aggressive over several years of unplanned changes of queen. In this instance little light enters the hive except on the comb being examined and those immediately adjacent. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:22:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: No Treatment for a Year and Then Some... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have retired and have become a bit lazy in my beekeeping. Being away all summer probably contributed, too. Anyhow, we finally did a mite sampling on all my 32 hives, and the results are at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2004/diary092004.htm#tests The table should be self-explanatory, and a few details are at the bottom. I think that the results are fascinating. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:51:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/10/2004 05:07:22 GMT Standard Time, Jim writes: > I've been advocating tracking growing degree-days as a way to nail down > blooms to within a few days for years now, and I've yet to find any other > beekeeper even trying it. Discouraging. Not sure what you mean by degree-days. The Devon Apicultural Research Group is now into its second year of tracking the flowering periods of bee-plants in relation to the location and altitude of participants. Nothing published yet. I did something of the sort myself about 20 years ago unsystematically and there was quite a wide variation from year to year. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:09:42 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle Bob's comments (">") in reply to Scot (">>") and I (">>>") help to narrow down the actual mechanisms that can be observed, and might be the actual result of "downsizing to small-cell". I'm going to try to further narrow things down here. Its a slog, sorry. >> 1) When bees are raised on small cell brood combs, their brood cycle is >> reduced by 1 or 2 days compared to bees on 5.4mm foundation. This reduces >> the length of the number of brood cycles a female mite can complete, and >> therefore reducing the growth rate of varroa populations. > Certainly a possible hypothesis but not one generally accepted by > reaserchers. This is a simple thing that can be directly measured. If brood cycles are shorter in small-cell hives, it should be easy (with an observation hive) to see, and document. In short, this has to be true or false. Why do the opinions of "researchers" vary on this point? Has anyone bothered to look at this? >> The bees recongize a worker cell that is infested with varroa and >> they chew the cell out, pincing the varroa... > This behavior has been observed in bees on all cell sizes. OK, so is the whole "downsizing" process really nothing but the elimination of colonies that DON'T have the hygienic behavior mentioned above? If so, then this should be a universal activity in "small-cell hives", one that can be directly observed. >> How can you say that bees can't tolerate varroa, varroa isn't some new >> breed spontaneously becoming an epidemic. On Apis mellifera, it is certainly is "new". When Apis mellifera colonies were brought by beekeepers within the natural range of Apis cerana, that's when the trouble started. Had beekeepers not moved Apis mellifera colonies into that area, varroa might have remained an obscure beastie mentioned only in the acarological and entomological journals forever. >>> And then what happens if one swaps out the queen? And so on, each move >>> aimed at narrowing down the actual mechanism at work here.) >> Of course changing the queen will change the character of the hive, I am not >> even sure why you would bring this up. What will happen? Who can say, >> changing the queen in any hive is the same as changing the queen in any >> other hive. Its a weighted crap shoot. The idea here is to keep the worker bees that are willing to live on and work with the smaller cells, but swap the queen, to test if the smaller cell size is the TRUE critical factor, rather than genetics. If a new queen, never before exposed to small-cell comb lays eggs that hatch into bees that continue to show the same resistance to varroa, that would go a VERY long way towards eliminating the whole "genetics" issue from the equation. >>> Are small-cell beekeepers simply unwitting "SMR breeding program >>> Do-It-Yourselfers"? If not, how would anyone know for sure? >> Yes they most certainly are. They question you probably SHOULD have >> asked is whether these new SMR characteristics will continue to be >> expressed if one returns the bees to large cell hives. That answer >> is most likely -- sometimes. Why only "sometimes"? That's where we get back into being unable to isolate "breeding for survival" from "small cell" itself. That's why colonies need to be moved back and forth between "small" and "large" cell hives to see if the resistance follows the bees, or the comb. >>> So your mite counts rise to a certain level each year, >>> and then hover there? >> I didn't say they rise and hover, I said they remain managed. The what does the mite population, in terms of natural mite drop over consistent intervals, look like? I'm assuming that the count is non-zero. "Managed" is a qualitative term, and I'd like to use quantitative terms, please. >> The mite didn't just spontaneously occur, its simply found a new >> weakness to exploit because of our dickering with the natural way >> of the bees. This is a silly statement, as it assumes that the "natural way of bees" would have ever been preserved in any way once man figured out how to "keep" them. It wasn't. >> If mite counts are not the issue but the bees' ability to manage its >> coexistence with varroa, why would mite numbers be important? Because one cannot claim to control that which they do not measure. Numbers would put some teeth behind the claims, and advance science a bit. >> Not knowing the number is not an impediment at all to small cell advocates. >> We are already practicing sound successful methods of operation. Why do you >> reject something that works? Just because you don't have the numbers? Numbers allow one to differ between "there are no mite infestations here" and "this allows us to stand up to mite infestation". Numbers also allow one to better understand how much varroa pressure bees can tolerate, which would be of value to those who are unable to commit the time/money to downsizing, and are forced to use "treatments" to control mites. >> Actually, if the bees survive, then THIS would answer whether the >> bees survive. Numbers would be moot, because the bees are still >> there or they are not. Why is a complete and total rejection of even basic scientific principles so common amongst small-cell advocates? Numbers are NEVER moot. Numbers are how one measures and compares. Numbers are how one proves that ANY approach to varroa "works" or "doesn't". Numbers are how one proves that one did not treat on the sly, and numbers are how one prompts others to compare their numbers with yours, and either support or refute your findings. Without numbers, one has nothing but apocryphal anecdotes. >> Again, the result is what's important. Agreed, but any "result" must be expressed in terms of measurements, which are expressed in numbers. So without numbers, one has no result! >> Evolution has already performed these tests, No it clearly hasn't. There has not been enough time for any sort of evolutionary result from varroa moving to Apis mellifera. >> just because you don't comprehend the current results (which is >> simply a matter of survival and competion and has nothing to do >> with numbers), does not mean that the results are not conclusive. There is no such thing as a "result" that is unsupported by "the numbers". Without the numbers, one has nothing but an unsupported claim. The numbers are the ONLY facts that can support a claim. >> We should stop monitoring the varroa and perhaps start monitoring >> the bees? How's that catch you? That's rather common in research, but one would want to measure both populations, if for no other reason than to verify that the varroa population is non-zero. >>> What studies have been done to date have stumbled on the "regression" step, >>> resulting in some hard feelings on the part of the small-cell enthusiasts >>> toward the researchers. >> Why would it cause hard feelings? Outrage at the bogus nature of the attempt, anger that any conclusion about "small-cell" would be drawn from a faulty experimental methodology. >> Ceremony and perception sometimes bleed into one another. Yes, one never knows, do one? :) > Are you going to continually and ceremoniously be the devil's advocate Yes. > while people genuinely perceive you to speak truth? People's perception is accurate. I certainly do not lie, and if I am mistaken, I am open to correction, and willing to change my view. > The road to hell is paved with good intentions. And I intend to walk every step of the way, my boot-heels stained with the hearts and souls of gentle folks. :) My intent is to answer two basic questions: a) Where are we going? b) And what's the deal with this hand-basket, anyway? jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 22:28:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: > The Devon Apicultural Research Group > is now into its second year of tracking the flowering periods of bee-plants in > relation to the location and altitude of participants. Nothing published > yet. I am curious as to how you decide when the flowering period has 'officially' started. If we take rape as an example, it is not uncommon to see the first flowers in February, or even January if there is a mild winter. Bees will work these early patches avidly, but there is, of course, no surplus honey gathered. However, even though we see these early patches of flowers, the crop is not usually in full flower until late April/early May and significant flows often do not occur until mid/late May. So what is the start of the flowering period. A small patch in January? When is it completely yellow? When the flow starts (and this requires us to define a flow!)? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 22:12:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" " Have you ever tested your bees for hygienic behavior by freezing a section of > comb (to kill brood) and seeing the amount of time needed to remove the dead > brood (24 or 48 hours)?" Fascinating ...but Bob has gone off track here. He is suggesting testing the ability of small cell bees to remove DEAD brood. But if small cells bees are removing varroa affected pupae , those are still LIVE - so a different behavoiur is involved. Surely what might be happening is the varroa 'irritate' the larvae at the stage they are still moving and spinning their cocoons, causing the larvae to behave rather like EFB affected larvae that are starving and twisting about. If there is a form of hygenic behaviour which causes such larvae to be ejected (and there is , yes?), then the same behaviour could cause ejection of the varroa filled cells. Perhaps small cells increase the distress of the larvae simply because of the mites are pressed harder against the larvae in a smaller cell. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:42:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis & All, Thanks for your sharing Dennis! >I've had bees on small cell for 4 years. I remember when you started. >I wouldn't mind putting a drone comb in a small cell hive and leaving it there. Would tell me quite a bit but from your natural varroa drops I would say your bees will take the pressure so maybe a moog point. Bob asked: >What type of varroa load do you see in late fall before brood rearing shuts >down in natural fall or eyther roll? Dennis said: My small cell hives have consistently dropped about 1 to 2 mites/week. My Russian drops are 0 to 1 in spring and go to 0-6 or 7 in Sept. The absolute high amount has been 11 varroa when a Russian hive was in a yard of varroa infested Italians ( I love my italians and old habits are hard to break but at least I now have got a line of yellow Russian queens). I figure this will be my last year with the Italian bee. I have had SMR drops of 0 in Sept. with a few colonies but I did not care for the SMR/SMR colonies I have had for a number of reasons. Dennis said: And I think this is great news as beekeepers can take the best bee they have and get great results without having to start the selection process from scratch. No need to loose all those characteristics by passing the selection process through the mite tolerant genetic bottleneck. Interesting! I don't believe I have heard you say the above before. Selecting for hygienic behavior is no longer a criteria for me. Interesting! My Bee Culture magazine came in the mail about an hour ago with an excellent article by Dr. Sanford talking about the issue at hand on page 23 of the October issue called "Mite tolerance in Honey Bees"! I used to say as Marla is quoted in the article but now believe we may have such a bee bred through a complicated 6 way closed breeding program. Marla says: "There are no beekeepers or researchers who have successfully bred a line of bees that is varroa tolerant such as they can survive without treatment" I do wish I had learned of the success of many lines of bees on small cell by Dennis earlier. I miss my best honey producing line of Italians! Very interesting information provided by the research of Dennis! Will you try and evaluate a couple of our varroa tolerant bees for us Dennis if we send to you next spring? Use on large cell foundation or small but do not treat for varroa. Be honest in your evaluation and post on BEE-L if you like about what you are seeing. If so email me directly your shipping information and the date you would like to take delivery in April and I will see you get a couple queens. I will contact you by email a week before shipping and also when they are shipped! Not a bad trade for sticking in a drone comb for awhile in a small cell hive and reporting ! Sincerely, Bob Harrison "Beekeepers working with other beekeepers is a recipe for success!" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 20:22:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: No Treatment for a Year and Then Some... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, Anyhow, we finally did a mite sampling on all my 32 hives, and the results are at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2004/diary092004.htm#tests I think that the results are fascinating. The only surprise to me is low counts in the pink overwintered section on some hives. Could be easily explained if the queen breeder you purchased those queens from has been selecting for varroa tolerance or added SMR stock to his program. When you look at Allen's sampling of *all* his hives you can easily see how you might miss the high varroa load hives by random sampling *or* think you have got a serious varroa problem if your random sampling was say two of the high varroa hives. The new hives started (Grey hives) should carry a low load *if* started from low varroa load brood last spring. Thanks for sharing Allen! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:04:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: No Treatment for a Year and Then Some... In-Reply-To: <002301c4a7e3$a98384c0$55b85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen > Anyhow, we finally did a mite sampling on all my 32 > hives, and the results are at > http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2004/diary092004.htm#tests What is the significance of the hive numbering in respect to the physical placement of the hives ? Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 09:21:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: weather/swarming/crop predictions In-Reply-To: <80.16b19a4f.2e8f012d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris, Jim & all Jim Said... > > I've been advocating tracking growing degree-days > > as a way to nail down blooms to within a few days > > for years now, and I've yet to find any other > > beekeeper even trying it. Discouraging. Chris Said... > I did something of the sort myself about 20 years ago > unsystematically and > there was quite a wide variation from year to year. Similarly about 20 years ago (I did not know Chris then), a commercial beekeeper (John Inchley, died 1996) tried to get me interested in a similar project. He had several years of data on blooming of target species and asked me to find an empirical formula to use it for prediction. I was not able to make any sense or draw any direct conclusions from the data presented (which was meticulous), BUT the concept of growing degree days was not mooted at the time, nor do I think anything more than spot temperature were recorded. For UK conditions, a temperature measuring method that incorporated averaging or integration over the full 24 hour period, would be needed as the weather can change dramatically many times during a day. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 08:17:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? In-Reply-To: <012f01c4a7ff$8124fb00$05bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-F582195; boundary="=======85F5110=======" --=======85F5110======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-F582195; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Bob said: >I have had SMR drops of 0 in Sept. with a few colonies but I did not care >for the SMR/SMR colonies I have had for a number of reasons. I just started with SMR/SMR crosses. I have approx. 250 4 frame nucs going into winter, most of which have SMR daughters, crossed with my best honey producers/good winterers. They built up well, and are more populous than I usually see at this time of year. I can't really judge their performance until next year, though. I was wondering, Bob...what was it you didn't like about these bees? Mike --=======85F5110=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:34:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: small cells Hi Roger, I also think that some kind of learning process is involved. The bees seem to get better at cleaning the mites with time. And then don't have much of a problem with them after that. Do you have any new insights from your small cell bees? Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:23:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: weather/swarming/crop predictions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I was not able to make any sense or draw any direct conclusions > from the data presented (which was meticulous), BUT the concept > of growing degree days was not mooted at the time, nor do I think > anything more than spot temperature were recorded. In my experience, if there is a correlation, it is not very close, and there are so many other factors (rainfall, wind, drought, etc.), that the idea is pretty well useless where I live. Might apply somewher, though. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:19:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: No Treatment for a Year and Then Some... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > What is the significance of the hive numbering in respect to the > physical placement of the hives ? >From the web page at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2004/diary100104.htm (I updated it last night and added a graphic) --- begin quote -- The hives in grey boxes are this year's Australian packages and have never been treated. Those in pink are overwintered hives that have not been treated since the spring before this past one. At that time, they got one strip of Apistan®. We did not use any oxytet in the hives since Spring 2003, either, and we can see a few cells of AFB. Here is the same data in a chart. What can we see here? (CHART) Possible interpretation: Knowing that these hives were sampled and numbered from one end of the outfit to the other end, and that the hives are mostly in four-packs, we see that the high counts are grouped in one area. a.. Did one hive (17) rob a feral colony and bring back mites that then drifted with bees to nearby hives? b.. Did one or two hives miss the last treatment a year and a half ago? c.. Are the higher scoring hives facing east or west? I'll have to check. d.. Has one hive developed resistant mites that then spread? I really doubt it. --- end quote -- Good questions. I'll have to go out and see how Medhat numbered them. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:44:30 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: small cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dennis wrote: >>Do you have any new insights from your small cell bees?<< The original colonies are still in good condition even though they = haen't had any treatments for 52 months and have been on SCF since July = 2001 - they were put on SCF when they had PMS symptoms - the best that = have been on SCF produced an average of around 30kgs this year - it was = a very bad year overall in out regoin and many hives did not produce any = surplus. It is very interesting to see how these SCF hives are able to = live and produce without treatments. I'm glad to see that someone on = this list understood what I meant when I said that the bees are able to = learn to handle Varroa - maybe I should use ancient Greek when making = future posts - almost same results. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:54:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Just what is Hygeinic Behavior?([BEE-L] Small cells and small beehive beatle) Comments: To: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Conversations on the BEE-L list between Jim and Scot, Bob, Keith and others it has now been said: > >> The bees recongize a worker cell that is infested with > varroa and > >> they chew the cell out, pincing the varroa... > > > This behavior has been observed in bees on all cell > sizes. > > OK, so is the whole "downsizing" process really nothing > but the > elimination of colonies that DON'T have the hygienic > behavior mentioned > above? If so, then this should be a universal activity > in "small-cell hives", > one that can be directly observed. Reply I would say that IMPOV that the universal activity in Small-cell hives for cleaning out/chewing out varroa, and accompanying secondary diseases is directly related to increased "Division of Labor" due to the increased numbers of workerbrood produced in a more compact broodnest area. Enlarged bees on enlarged combs have fewer bees per a given area. So what are those breeding hygenic bees actually doing then with field manipulatons and selection for broodnest cleansing traits? Could they actually be then retraining honeybees to stay home and work inside?..........rather then gather stores from the field...........which then leads to smaller colonies of lesser production value? Has this point indirectly been said about resistant strains of bees capable of controlling mites? in that they control the parasitic problem, but need more work on production? Since small cell bees means more bees, and more bees IMPOV means more available bees, for division of labor for ALL field and internal hive needs, the bees then need to control problems, since they cannot always be eliminated, then really what is Hygenic behavior and shouldn't it be relooked at to what it really is maybe? A learned trait? and inherited trait? with bees having to decide how to assign the work force for full potential in output which then shows what?.......intelligence? or just doing? Sure would like to see some good rationalizing on this or comments................. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:47:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: Bare foundation. >I have a couple of hives that have chewed cell >walls down to the foundation in areas as large as a hand-span in several >combs where the surroundings are packed with brood. >Can anything be done to get the bees to rebuild the >cells? I see that once and a while in my hives, rotating the comb in the brood box seem to salve the problem for me. Perhaps the culprit is bee space between the frames? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:18:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: weather/swarming/crop predictions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen: I attended a talk by one of the botanists at the Devon Botanical Garden site. She mentioned that the date of first flowering of local plants could be fairly well predicted from knowledge of the average temperature of the surface water in the North Pacific. Best regards Donald Aitken --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 28/09/2004 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 15:25:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: Bare foundation. In-Reply-To: <200410021915.i92HsZJI007608@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday 02 October 2004 01:47 pm, Ian wrote: > >I have a couple of hives that have chewed cell > >walls down to the foundation in areas as large as a hand-span in several > >combs where the surroundings are packed with brood. > >Can anything be done to get the bees to rebuild the > >cells? > > I see that once and a while in my hives, rotating the comb in the brood box > seem to salve the problem for me. Perhaps the culprit is bee space between > the frames? If the bees appear to be spontaneously chewing down the walls then its unlikely its a bees space issue...of course it could be. The comb could have sagged one way or another. Colonies that have been infected by wax moth once found will chew the comb right down to and cut holes through the foundation to get rid of the wax moth. I don't treat my hives and let them deal with things on their own, and I have seen all of my hives get infiltrated by wax moth and I have seen them all deal with the problem successfully within 2-3 days of the bees recognizing there is a problem. I have had one exception where a new swarm had quickly gotten infested with wax moth, the cluster was too weak and new to deal with it, they hadn't had time to cap any brood yet, and they absconded when they couldn't get ahead of the wax moth. Too bad because the comb was absolutely beautiful. Tiny tiny and perfectly patterned. 4.6mm comb was the average in the core. 4.9 being the largest. Amazing. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 16:15:59 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Just what is Hygeinic Behavior?([BEE-L] Small cells and small beehive beatle) Dee said: > I would say that IMPOV that the universal activity in Small-cell > hives for cleaning out/chewing out varroa, Are you saying that your observations tend to support a claim that this is truly "universal"? Have you observed this directly happening, or only evidence "after the fact"? Can you be specific about what you have seen, in terms of: a) "saw the cell capped" b) "saw the bees open it up" c) "saw a varroa-infested larvae removed from that cell" for each of some number cells observed over some period of time in some number of colonies? How (except with obseration hives and a large amount of video tape) might one directly observe this? > and accompanying secondary diseases Is this an assumption, or something that has been tested with actual samples of bees sent to labs for verification of a lack of "secondary" diseases (I'm going to guess viruses)? > is directly related to increased "Division of Labor" due to the increased > numbers of workerbrood produced in a more compact broodnest area. But wouldn't this require a small-cell queen to somehow lay eggs significantly faster than any other queen? While I agree that a higher colony population will result in more workers available for each possible task, I'm not sure what higher brood density has to do with anything. Clearly, the limiting factor in the number of brood cells would be the speed with which the queen lays eggs. One could provide far more brood comb than required to insure that the queen is never limited by the amount of open available comb, but the queen still will only lay some maximum number of cells per day, as she can only lay "so fast, no faster". > Enlarged bees on enlarged combs have fewer bees per a given area. But "area" is an easy-to-change variable. How would a minor increase in density of bees per square inch (or brood cells per square inch) be better than expanding all my brood nests from 3 mediums to 4 mediums or (just to get silly) 3 mediums to 5 mediums? >Since small cell bees means more bees, How? I must disagree, as "MANY more bees" per colony would result from setting up a 2-queen hive than could possibly result from any incremental increase in the egg-laying speed of any one queen. If one thinks about it, a 2-queen hive will out produce a single-queen hive every time, even if each of the 2 queens are "lousy" queens. Let's assume that we have two queens, and they both lay at only a fraction of the rate of our "standard" queen: 70% + 70% = 140% 60% + 60% = 120% So, if number of workers had anything to do with it, ANY 2-queen hive would demonstrate the same "hygienic" behavior attributed to small-cell colonies. > ...what is Hygenic behavior... > A learned trait? > an inherited trait? Let's not go there... Lysenko is safely and comfortably dead, let's not resurrect him. :) jim (The longer a liberator stays, the more he looks like an occupier.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:10:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? Hi Guys, Here's some more information that might be interesting. I attempted to get more straight comb in my tbh by shuffling frames. I inserted empty top bars between broodnest comb. And I also slowly moved the broodnest toward the rear of the hive placing empty top bars toward the entrance. After examining BerkeyDavid comb photos, see http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/compa.htm I decided to evaluate the effects of shuffling comb, a common practice and one that I use in tbh management. I went back and rearranged one tbh to mimic the broodnest structure I'd seen in my first tbh. The second hive was left as is, with its shuffled comb. The rearranged hive is ok without symptoms of mite infestation. The shuffled hive now has lots of crawlers with Deformed Wing Virus and Milky Wing Virus. Both of these hives have queens grafted from the same stock, mated in the same yard and set next to each other. It's a small test, but for me, a significant one. Although broodnest organization is strong, it can be easily disrupted. The bees simply have no mechanism to deal with moving comb. I hoped that the bees orientation to the broodnest structure was so strong that shuffling combs would have little effect. But the opposite is the case. The broodnest structure can be very easily disrupted and the advantages of the natural small cell comb lost. This poses some interesting challenges when managing top bar hive comb if the advantages of a small cell core are to be realized. My small cell hives, in the same yard, are doing fine. I haven't seen a single mite or any symptoms in those hives. This also shows just how fast a hive can go down hill. These top bar hives were started this spring from their small cell neighbors. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:41:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Small cells and small beehive beatle In-Reply-To: <200409291624.58612.scot@linuxfromscratch.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: > In fact ALL aspects of beekeeping and in > fact LIFE are part of 'the darwin factor'. The question is whether your > practices are long term healthy or detrimental to the whole. Its a hard > picture to fathom, but a darwin viewpoint is a great deal grander than what > most poeople are accustomed to. Eventually all weakness will be squashed, snip > Through our use of modern medicine, pharmaceuticals, and > deterent/poisonous chemicals in various aspects of our lives and beekeeeping > specifically since this is the topic of this discussion, we have actually > AIDED nature, but not to our benifit. We have aided nature in selection by > weeding out weaknesses in the pests and diseases that afflict us and our > living friends. Nature, through us, has removed the weaknesses in pests and > diseases. We now have pests and diseases that are no longer susceptible to > our treatments, forcing us to come up with new treatments for all of our > ailments. This in turn is just giving nature another tool to weed out more > weaknesses in our adversaries. This is darwinism, this is nature, and this is > life. It is why we have evolved into humans, and why bees have evolved into > bees. The lines of our most ancient ancestry were effected and selected by > nature, in which each new strength helps to compete, while each weakness is > weeded out one or more at a time. New forms of stress factors and challenges > to survival will continue to be placed upon us and all living things. This > game does not only include our friends, but also our neighbors which happen > to be our challenges (varroa, cancer, polio, etc etc etc). This is how we are > where we are today, both in modern medicine, and beekeeping. If we continue > providing challenges for our ailments to overcome, we will continue to see > our ailments overcome each barrier we place in front of it because WE KILL > THE WEAK with each treatment aiding nature do her job in selecting the > strong. THIS IS >>> THE DARWIN FACTOR <<<. More commonly known as evolution. snip > Why would it cause hard feelings? Those of us that survive will continue while > those who do not, quite simply do not. I am not here to play games, I am here > to live. It is difficult to reply to this. I saw this kind of thought back in the 1940s, that we should allow the weak to die and eventually we would have a Master Race. Now, it has become very personal. Only 100 years ago if you made it into your 40's you had lived a long life. In the 30's and 40's, 65 was set as the Social Security age, since few lived that long and it was a fairly low risk for the Government. Today most will live until their late 70's. We have not changed. If you isolated a group of humans and let nature take its course, you would quickly be back to short lived humans. What has changed is medicine. We have a variety of means to keep death at bay for a bit longer. In our Church, there is a girl who would have died shortly after she was born. But medical science identified the problem (PKU) and she is alive and beautiful, a source of joy to all of us who know her. Darwin would not have let her die. He was a good Christian. In truth, he did not advocate the "survival of the fittest", but the adaptation of a species to its challenges. Which is exactly what mankind has done. We are not the fittest, but the most adaptive. To discount a person or animal and not treat their problem " because WE KILL THE WEAK with each treatment aiding nature do her job in selecting the strong" devalues life. It also insults Darwin. It is against the fundamental teaching of Christ, which is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I had a lump in my neck removed three days ago. Yesterday I was told it was malignant melanoma. According to the philosophy expounded by Scot, I should do nothing and let nature take its course. I do not intend to. I would appreciate your prayers. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 23:15:38 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Growing Degree Days >> I've been advocating tracking growing degree-days as a way to nail down >> blooms to within a few days for years now, and I've yet to find any other >> beekeeper even trying it. Discouraging. > Not sure what you mean by degree-days. The Devon Apicultural Research Group > is now into its second year of tracking the flowering periods of bee-plants in > relation to the location and altitude of participants. Nothing published > yet. Growing degree-days are an accurate way to track blooming dates so that predictions can be made that take the weather into account. If you know the bloom date for any one year, and have accurate daily high/low temperature data for that location for each day from the "winter low" temperature through bloom, you can then predict the exact bloom date for the same plant anywhere else, based upon high/low temperature data for THAT location. Any other approach to tracking blooms is mostly useless. Growing degree days get you down to within one or two days without even trying hard, and the math is easy. If the Devon group is not tracking growing degree-days, you should have them contact me off list. > I did something of the sort myself about 20 years ago unsystematically and > there was quite a wide variation from year to year. The reason was that the date of the bloom is a function of how much warmth is available to allow/promote plant growth in that spring, and springs vary. Greenhouse growers use growing degree-days to be able to schedule blooms down to the exact day, which is how one has things like blooming poinsettias for Christmas, large quantities of roses for Valentine's day, and lilies for Easter. If you send an e-mail to dawn@beeculture.com and ask her to e-mail you pdf copies of my Jan 2002 article "Whither Weather?", and Feb 2002 article "Be A Budding Genius, Not A Blooming Idiot". They will explain all, complete with diagrams and charts. (Please send me copies of what you get, as I don't think I have pdfs of those myself.) jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 11:57:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Growing Degree Days MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those of you following this thread may be interested in this: http://www.phenology.org.uk/ For beekeepers, the live maps of the progression of ivy first flowers, and the report on spring flowers and spring insect activity are worth a look. Wouldn't it be great to see the same for first swarms, first nectar flows and the like? Gavin. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 07:06:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Growing Degree Days In-Reply-To: <001201c4a8f7$418dff70$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: >>>I've been advocating tracking growing degree-days as a way to nail down >>>blooms to within a few days for years now, and I've yet to find any other >>>beekeeper even trying it. Discouraging. > Growing degree-days are an accurate way to track blooming dates so > that predictions can be made that take the weather into account. In Maine, a couple of apple growers wrote a book on using degree days as a part of their IPM program for scheduling spraying. They were able to match the timing of the pests emergence to the degree days and could spray less with more effect and save money, something apple growers with slim profit margins could use. It did not seem to catch on, and the reason is fairly obvious. It takes time and record keeping and most growers would rather just do the obvious, which is a set time for pre-emergence spray, look out the window to see bloom spray, and periodic sprays during the year, by a set time not by when something may be happening. You can plan your year in January. Same with beekeepers. We look out the window and when we see certain things, we know where we are in the beekeeping year. Or we set certain times in the year to do certain things. I do that. Extract about the end of July and October. That is fine for hobby beekeepers, but commercial beekeepers would be served well to know when the different blooms will occur, so they can plan more accurately and get the best from their labor and bees. It would be interesting to see if our bees also are regulated to any extent by degree days. It appears it is more the sun's position, but they may be a factor. Thanks to all for your encouragement. I certainly need it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 12:40:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: small cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Josh wrote: "There is no other explanation other than that the bees already contained the information." Roger White commented: "... there could be another explaination, a lot of bee behaviour appears to be learnt by the bees and this could also be the case in combating Varroa - in fact a lot of evidence seems to point in this direction." As there seem to be two alternative approaches under discussion - breeding Varroa resistant bees, versus modifying the brood nest to create small cells that in some way decrease Varroa reproduction - and both appear really to be getting somewhere - could we lurkers press for more information/comment on what mechanisms are believed to be triggered in each approach. Let me set up an Aunt Sally - and then duck: 1. NEW animal behaviour results only from chance mutation of genes , which can happen anytime or never - but when a succession of changes is needed for a major shift in behaviour it can take a very long time (thoudands if not millions of years). As western honeybees have been exposed to Varroa for only a few decades, evoution of beneficial genes is unlikely (not impossible) to have occurred. So Josh is most probably right that the genes for any necessary beneficial behaviour (if they exist) are most likely have been in bees a long time. 2. Animals do however learn to WIDEN the application of an instinctive behaviour (provided the instinct is provided by its genes). So birds that eat seeds have an instinct to peck bright objects and can culturally extend this to learning to peck silver foil milk bottle tops - but vultures whose instinct is to peck rotten meat selected by smell would not have the starting point for learning to peck scent-less foil. So Roger is right to say that bees can learn a behaviour (provided it can start from an instinctive behaviour that is within their genes). 2. ALL western colonies do not resist Varroa - so the mere presence of the beneficial genes must be insufficient. Their effect must be being heightened in some way in each of the two approaches. The breeding approach must be intensifying the genes - or breeding out other genes that counter the action of the beneficials. In contrast, the small cell approach must be creating conditions in which the beneficial behaviour is more OFTEN triggered or is more EFFICIENT whenever triggered, so bees are 'learning' to combat Varroa, without any intensification of particular genes. 3. Varroa are an abnormality within a bees' nest - so the existing behaviours that can be intensified are most likely responses bees already make to the long-established pests/diseases. We have therefore: (a) braula, a non-bee object that attaches to bees - so harmless that normally bees make minimal response, but bees do sometimes 'bite' braula? Could that biting be the behaviour enhanced by the breeders to the point mites are recognised as mini-braula and regularly attacked? If this theory is correct, varroa resistant colonies ought to be unusually swift in removing braula. Has any one ever looked for such correlation? And do the mites falling from Russian bees show many have been bitten? (b) ejection of larvae (sealed as well as unsealed) that are indicating distress by moving to an abnormal extent or for an abnormally long period due to infection with EFB (which starves the larvae to death). Could the breeders be intensifying that behaviour and the bees 'learning' to eject a larvae troubled by mites in its cell as a sideways extension of its normal EFB response? And could the reason small-cells help be that smaller cells intensify the irritation caused by the mites sealed in with a larvae by jamming the mite tighter onto the larva's body, so triggering a quicker and more widespread application of the instinctive behaviour for ejecting distressed larvae? If this theory is correct, colonies that show EFB symptoms (have poor ejection responses) might also exhibit higher mite loads. Is there such correlation? (c) ejection of dead smelly pupae that have died of AFB. Mites do not kill pupae so this behaviour does not seem so likely to be relevant to varroa control. But if it is triggered by a change in smell from the sealed brood - and if a distressed larvae and /or mites changes the smell of a sealed cell - then it could be. Note I have NOT included the theory that small cell increase the density of bees on the comb, leading to more bees to do house-keeping and automatically more hygenic behaviour (of some sort). If it was that easy, all we would have to do would be to temporarily slip clearer boards under supers, so crowding the brood boxes, and the colonies should immediately start ejecting Varroa - I have never heard that happens. But Dee added: "what is Hygenic behavior and shouldn't it be relooked at to what it really is maybe? A learned trait? and inherited trait? " - so let's do so - it may be both, a lateral adaptation of an inherited trait. The above propositions are there to throw rocks at. Would someone please shine a little light, to help the hobbyist understand why the big boys are getting somewhere - so we can do more to take some steps in the same directions even if we do not have the same opportunities to experiment with large numbers of colonies. Our feeble contributions from UK tend to get ignored - perhaps we might as well use Gaelic as Roger Classical Greek. We are worth helping because, surely, there must be some intelligent hobbyists in US as well who would gain, even if we hear little from them. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 15:04:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Hopefully light rather than rocks In-Reply-To: <004401c4a93d$ff34b500$8a8ebc3e@DellDesk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin & all > As western honeybees have been exposed to Varroa for > only a few decades, evoution of beneficial genes is > unlikely (not impossible) to have occurred. So Josh is most > probably right that the genes for any necessary beneficial > behaviour (if they exist) are most likely have been in bees a > long time. one of the problems in citing genes as being beneficial or not in a particular circumstance is that we humans have a tendency to think along the lines established by animal husbandry. We are dealing with sets of genes rather than individual genes (at any one location on any particular chromosome) which can be the same or different, simply because of multiple mating and the number of patrilines that this creates. The mix of patrilines is constantly changing, due to both man made influences (breeding) (transportation) (colony management) and natural influences (weather) (predators) (parasites) (forage availability). It is not so much that genes mutate (although that can happen) but that the various combinations of genes are more or less successful under certain circumstances and thus particular sets of genes suit one situation and another mixture will be right for another circumstance. There is a whole additional layer to this, in as much as at gene level there are a number of possible alleles at any given loci on any particular gene. All of this boils down to the fact that the genes required 'probably' already exist within many bee colonies, it is just a matter of getting the right combinations together. Simple to say but a vastly difficult task, due to sheer numbers of possibilities. A varroa tolerant bee colony may occur at random about once in 10,000,000,000 colonies, but unless that accident occurs where there is pressure from varroa and a beekeeper capable of recognising the quality, then it will go un-noticed. For any breeding strategy to be successful, we must lower the odds by breeding better candidates, but these will never be found unless the colonies concerned are challenged by varroa at higher levels than we beekeepers are currently prepared to put up with. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 11:08:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: small cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/10/04 14:11:43 GMT Daylight Time, gmv47@DIAL.PIPEX.COM writes: <> The first thing I noticed when I started downsizing bees was the appearance of bald brood, which I'd never seen before; some pupae were chewed out altogether. Not everyone sees this, but I'm not the only one by any means. So that's something to look at. Someone in the UK - I forget who - was breeding for mite damaging behaviour, apparently with some success; I don't know where he is with that now. I have a strain which has been bred for a degree of resistance (not by me), and I've noticed a high proportion of light coloured mites falling out, which I'm told are unlikely to be able to breed. So there are some possibilities. Right now, the hive with the lowest mitefall is also the one with three laying queens, but somehow I doubt whether that's relevant. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 18:28:46 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: small cells and learning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robin mentioned Braula - well I haven't seen one of those for about = twenty years. They used to be common in colonies, but since we have = been pouring all these miticides in the hives, I guess it has become = extinct here.=20 I think that the small cells have enabled the bees to develop (learn?) = some sort of behaviour (chewing out for example - but there must be = others as well) that enables them to keep the Varroa population at a = sub-lethal level. Maybe it's a combination of Varroa not being able to = reproduce as successfully on small cells and anti-varroa behaviour. = Clearly the colonies on large cell have a much harder time with Varroa = and need at least one treatment annually with an effective miticide or = they will just become over-whelmed and collapse - it seems like the = rapid increase in Varroa just doesn't give them time to react with any = sort of behaviour that effects the Varroa population. Always keep in = mind that Lusby said that small cells was only about one third of this = approach to combating Varroa - the other two being breeding and proper = nutrition. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 11:32:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: small cells Hi Guys, There was a study conducted in Europe and published in the American Bee Journal that studied the varroa mite life cycle using a video camera and clear, plastic cells containing brood. At one point the varroa mite migrates from the posterior end of the bee to a feeding site toward the middle of the abdomen. The mite must push the pupa's legs out of the way to get there. Maybe with smaller cells, the mite makes more 'noise' and can be detected easier by the bees. Bees use this same brood cleansing behavior to handle other pests as well. Bald headed brood has been reported in association with wax moth infestation. Barry Birkey has some excellent photographs of this process at: http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/barry/index.htm Although the mechanism appears to be the same, there are a number of differences that distinguish the bald headed brood due to wax moths and the same associated with varroa infestations. Others have reported a limited amount of bald headed brood without an apparent cause. This cleasing activity doesn't involve dead pupa. When they are uncapped at the purple eye stage, the pupa are glossy white and quite alive. And they remain alive unless the bees chew them out. Here are some photos of bald headed brood: http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/mitechew/index.htm Click on the thumbnails for a better view. I'm sure that there are multiple ways bees combat pests. But changing the cell size has allowed all different kinds of bees to tolerate the varroa mite. Regards Dennis Who has enough trouble just speaking English :>) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:01:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Hopefully light rather than rocks In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: > All of this boils down to the fact that the genes required > 'probably' already exist within many bee colonies, it is just a > matter of getting the right combinations together. Simple to say > but a vastly difficult task, due to sheer numbers of > possibilities. Excellent post, I would only add that the change may not be permanent. Varroa can go from resistant to susceptible and back again. It is not just one way. One of the discoveries of the human genome project was that they still do not know how many genes we have since many of the sequences have no apparent use. But sometime in the past they may have had importance. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 15:34:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Small cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/10/2004 05:04:23 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: > I'm glad to see that someone on this list understood what I meant when I > said that the bees are able to learn to handle Varroa I have noticed and reported before that, over a period of several months of monitoring, an increasing proportion of natually fallen mites in a hive showed damage that can only have been inflicted by the bees. Learning how to handle varroa is not the only possible explanation but I think it is one of the contenders. Bees are notoriously flexible and adapable in their behavior and a capacity to learn (as they learn location of home and of foraging sites) may be a heritable part of their genetic make up, without invoking the shades of Lamarck or of Lysenko. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 16:44:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, > Bob said: >I have had SMR drops of 0 in Sept. with a few colonies but I did not care >for the SMR/SMR colonies I have had for a number of reasons. Mike asked: I was wondering, Bob...what was it you didn't like about these bees? Your SMR mated to your best line might be OK. Ours was not! Consider your SMR breeder queen as simply a queen bringing a trait. She was selected for the SMR trait and nothing else. We had two such SMR II breeder queens and open mated the daughter queens we grafted to a couple of our best lines. I would guess about 25% of our bees were headed by these queens for a year . I did leave some in hives two years but had all replaced by the third year which was what we were told to do to introduce the trait into our bees. The bees were poor honey producers and the daughter queens had poor brood patterns unlike the line they were crossed with. We tried a few SMR /SMR hives and the results were worse and the bees superceded most. A percentage became drone layers. One of the SMR breeder queens became a drone layer within 6 months after laying a spotty pattern all the while. The other lasted a year with a better pattern then became a drone layer. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 20:36:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: U.S. research termonology (was Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" " Have you ever tested your bees for hygienic behavior by freezing a section of > comb (to kill brood) and seeing the amount of time needed to remove the dead > brood (24 or 48 hours)?" Robin asks: Fascinating ...but Bob has gone off track here. Happens but not often. Usually when I misunderstand the question then my friends Aaron or Murray send a direct email saying we think you misunderstood the question and I most likely have so I correct myself on BEE-L as I want Bee-L to be correct. I am going to try and explain the current termonology being used in varroa research & hygienic behavior in the U.S. so we will all understand the termonology in current use. Robin said: He is suggesting testing the ability of small cell bees to remove DEAD brood. But if small cells bees are removing varroa affected pupae , those are still LIVE - so a different behavoiur is involved. A different behavior might indeed be in use but in U.S. research the behavior still comes under the wording of *hygienic behavior*. If you have got access to the current issue of Bee Culture (Oct. 2004) and the article by Dr. Sanford you will see the terminology I am about to speak about in print. >From pg. 24 of the article you will see in print the description of the hygienic behavior described above included under the heading of hygienic behavior. The removal of both dead & live are included in Dr. Spivak's description of hygienic behavior. Quote by Dr. Spivak from the article: "Uncapping and removal of *infested larva & pupae* by adult bees, the "hygienic behavior" thought to be ---" The only test I have ever heard of for hygienic behavior in bees involves as I posted the removal of dead brood in a certain time frame. I use the freezing method of kill and Dennis M. used the pin kill method . Both are correct. Autogrooming refers to grooming of bees by themselves and allogrooming refers to the grooming among bees. If one goes back to the time I came on BEE-L you will see I used the word *resistance* in talking about bees which can handle the varroa mite. About two years ago I started using the wording "varroa tolerance". The bee research world is replacing the word varroa resistance with the word varroa tolerance. Both are *correct* as Dr. Sanford points out in his article. Hence the reason my posts on BEE-L have been using the word tolerance ( instead of resistance) the last couple of years. I speak with many researchers directly and want to use the same terminology so I can be sure we are on the same page. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 17:54:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: small cells and learning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Roger & All, > Always keep in mind that Lusby said that small cells was only about one third of this approach to combating Varroa - the other two being breeding and proper nutrition. > Breeding, in my opinion, is something that I think that all beekeeper should take part in. As far as nutrition, I think that Honey & Pollen is proper, I do not mean honey dew. The nutrient of water is a whole different subject but also I think the source being very important. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 16:58:01 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: M & T Weatherhead Subject: Re: U.S. research termonology (was Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders?) In-Reply-To: <006101c4a9b2$b3ef6520$40bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The only test I have ever heard of for hygienic behavior in bees involves as I posted the > removal of dead brood in a certain time frame. I use the freezing method of kill and Dennis > M. used the pin kill method . Both are correct. Several scientists, from north America, I have spoken to urge caution with the pin kill method. The reason is that the hemolymph leaks out of the pin hole. It is suggested that bees will respond to this and uncap and remove the pupae even if they do not have "hygienic behaviour". Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.772 / Virus Database: 519 - Release Date: 1/10/04 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 11:45:07 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: learning to cope with varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris wrote: >>may be a heritable part of their genetic make up<< Apparently not so. When the queen of a hive that was coping well with = Varroa was introduced into another hive in a new location, the receiving = colony did not develop the same anti-varroa behaviour as the original = colony. This could be the reason why a strain of bees that has found = and marketed as being resistant to Varroa performs poorly in other areas = - obviously there is a lot going on that we don't understand yet. Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:00:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Andrew Dewey Subject: Small Scale Syrup Storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, I give. In the last week I've gone through 24 five pound bags of sugar as I get my 14 or so hives ready for winter. I need to switch to corn syrup if only to stop shaking gallon milk jugs full of water and sugar! My quandary is this: I need to handle any bulk containers by myself without specialized equipment. Moving a drum full of syrup is not going to happen. Can anyone suggest a type of container in the 5-7 gallon capacity that has been used with success for corn syrup being fed to bees? I figure I need to be buying syrup about 30 gallons at a time - and I have a source - I just need to provide my own containers. Many Thanks. Andrew Dewey Southwest Harbor, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 08:07:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: feeding corn syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew asks 'Can anyone suggest a type of container in the 5-7 gallon capacity that has been used with success for corn syrup being fed to bees?" Why not use standard 5-gallon pails? They are readily available 'everywhere'. Specifically, at all Home Depots and Lowes. Full, they weigh 60 lbs., but there is nothing to prevent you from only putting 40-50 lbs. in each. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 11:13:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Small Scale Syrup Storage In-Reply-To: <200410041100.i94B050n085346@aphrodite.gwi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:00 AM 10/4/2004, Andrew Dewey wrote: >Can anyone suggest a type of container in the 5-7 gallon capacity that has >been used with success for corn syrup being fed to bees? 5 gallon buckets? Often these can be had at bakeries and restaurants for free or a nominal fee. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 09:06:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: U.S. research termonology (was Small Cell Beekeepers SMR breeders?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor said: Several scientists, from north America, I have spoken to urge caution with the pin kill method. The reason is that the hemolymph leaks out of the pin hole. It is suggested that bees will respond to this and uncap and remove the pupae even if they do not have "hygienic behaviour". I believe the problem will be eliminated if you come in from the back side or mid rib. I believe both the pin test and the liquid nitro test will give satisfactory results if done correctly. The Liquid nitro test has its drawbacks also. If you squish brood in an effort to seal the canister from leaks. This massive assault to the comb in that general area will also trigger the cleaning out of the area thus leading to inaccurate readings. I believe Pettis did some work and found he got 100% with pin kill. Pin kill is certainly harder to do than liquid nitro. Bottom line liquid nitrogen is better and less expensive if doing more than twenty five colonies which is the bare minimum for any viable breeding program. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:56:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Just what is Hygeinic Behavior?([BEE-L] Small cells and small beehive beatle) Greetings, There is an one aspect I've observed about broodnest cleansing associated with small cell comb. It is primarily a seasonal activity, which is most intense during the early spring and late summer/fall. At those times, hive populations are not at a maximum. Maybe the clusters density would greater in the spring. But it be at a minimum in the late summer/fall when most of the activity is seen. Very little broodnest cleansing and few damaged mite are seen during midsummer, when hive populations are greatest. Small colonies on small cell comb can tolerate the mites as well as larger colonies. Five frame nucs can maintain themselves without mite treatments. I'm sure if a colony is too small to sustain itself, mites could be a problem. Regards Dennis Sharing Northern thoughts. It might be different down South. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:31:37 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Small Scale Syrup Storage > Moving a drum full of syrup is not going to happen. I do this often when I don't have a 2nd pair of hands around. 1) Turn drum on side using winch to control "fall". 2) Roll drum to required location 3) Tip drum back up, using lever principal or come-along winch. 4) Do this often enough, and you work some muscles in places you did not you had them. > Can anyone suggest a type of container in the 5-7 gallon capacity that has > been used with success for corn syrup being fed to bees? Plain old 5-gallon pails work for syrup just as well as for honey. Dadant sells the pails cheaper than most of the restaurant supply houses, and Kelley used to ship 5-gallon pails of HFCS via UPS. Likely any of the supply houses would do this, if they handled HFCS at all. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 11:07:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Growing Degree Days MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That is fine for hobby beekeepers, but > commercial beekeepers would be served well to know when the different > blooms will occur, so they can plan more accurately and get the best > from their labor and bees. Our main honey blooms seem to come at the same dates regardless of Spring weather, but fruit bloom can vary by several weeks due to temperatures. The main _honeyflow_ dates however (not the bloom) seem to move around a lot, in both onset and length, regardless of flowers being there, but not due to any single factor we can appreciate. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 18:42:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: feeding corn syrup In-Reply-To: <003701c4aa0a$c926bad0$b2e9d518@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4BA52891; boundary="=======1966958=======" --=======1966958======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4BA52891; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >Andrew asks 'Can anyone suggest a type of container in the 5-7 gallon >capacity for corn syrup being fed to bees?" I use 1 gallon paint cans, purchased new at an auto parts store...about $1 @. Jab four holes in the center of the lid with your hive tool, and invert cans over the combs. Place cans on shims to keep cans 1 bee space off frames. Surround with empty hive body, and cover. You can feed up to 5 gallons at a time. The bees cluster around the cans, warming the syrup. They can take down 5 gallons in 3 or 4 days. Mike --=======1966958=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:26:15 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: weather/swarming/crop predictions > For UK conditions, a temperature measuring method that > incorporated averaging or integration over the full 24 hour > period, would be needed as the weather can change dramatically > many times during a day. That's not what the extensive experience of greenhouse growers as a group shows. Plants grow in a cumlative stepwise manner, so if the average temperature for the day (the sum of the daily high and low, divided by 2) is greater than 55 degrees, you have so many "growing degree days, and the plant has made progress towards bud, bloom, and maturity. This is not guess-work, this is bonda-fide Science with a capital "S", and one can even find the number of GDDs on many seed packages. jim (The Ten Commandments - now available in convenient tablet form!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:28:04 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: weather/swarming/crop predictions > In my experience, if there is a correlation, it is not very close, > and there are so many other factors (rainfall, wind, drought, etc.), > that the idea is pretty well useless where I live. Might apply somewher, though. Your ag extension agent in Alberta might be able to help you with this, as there seem to be enough people in Alberta using GDDs to prompt the extension staff to make very complete data available: http://www.agric.gov.ab.ca/app21/rtw/selsubj.jsp But they ARE also tracking total precipitation, and this may be a critical factor for your area. Scroll down to the bottom of this page. http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/cl4787?opendocument Here in the lower 48, springs droughts are rare enough to make the tracking of accumulated precipitation moot most years, and unlike Alberta, there has never been a train derailed by wind. But SWARMING??? You ain't never gonna "predict" swarming... jim (Funny comment deleted by the Department of Homeland Security) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 23:29:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: JOEL N SWINK Subject: weather/swarming/crop predictions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donald, Just to back up the statement made by the botanist. I had a neighbor who had one of those electronic weather stations which = recorded all the precipitation and the the high temp of the day and the = low temp of the day. I live in Oregon, about 2 hour's drive from the = Pacific Ocean. =20 I averaged all the highs and all the lows for a five year period and = came up with 47.5 degrees farenheit, the same temperature as the = Pacific. This sea water temperature remains constant from the shore out = to the Japanese current which then exceeds 58 degrees. This current = passes usually at least 120 miles off shore but can come in as close as = 50 miles off shore on "El Nino" years. =20 By the way, the highest year's rainfall in the above sample exceeded 13 = feet. =20 Early spring rain and cool weather has kept my bees from the first of = the nectar flow the past two years. They are very partial to the maple = trees here and the flow is heavy whether the bees can fly or not. =20 Joel N. Swink :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:38:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: weather/swarming/crop predictions In-Reply-To: <011a01c4aa69$8b6e82e0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim > That's not what the extensive experience of greenhouse growers > as a group shows. Plants grow in a cumlative stepwise manner, > so if the average temperature for the day (the sum of the daily > high and low, divided by 2) is greater than 55 > degrees, What concerns me is the simplicity of this averaging... Taking 12 deg C as the trigger point, I can have a day with a low of 5 deg that occurs for 21 hours out of 24 and a high of 20 deg that occurs for 3 hrs or I could have a snap frost of 0 deg for an hour with 25 deg for the rest of the day, both give an average of 12.5, but I seriously doubt that the growth would be the same under the two different conditions. While the figures I have chosen are extreme and would vary in a smooth periodic way, they are not beyond the bounds of possibility. Best Regards & 73s, Dave Cushman... G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website Email: cyberbeek@tiscali.co.uk or dave@dave-cushman.net http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman & http://www.dave-cushman.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:30:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Vibrating Knife Uncapper Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi all, Obviously if my operation were big enough or profitable enough I would go directly to a silver queen or a dakota uncapper. However, reality as it is my sideline operation produces a few drums per year. Each year as I grow I bring another bigger or automated system into the operation. With this background does anyone have experience with vibrating knife uncappers? I've done some internet probing with no results. I've uncovered a woodman vibrating uncapper--which was still in the crate--though it was a used machine. Been in the back of a garage for 20ish years. Thought I'd clean it up, weld up some new stainless parts & see what it would do. Problem is I will not be able to get any replacement parts & it would be a fixer upper. Looks like Walter Kelley has one for around $350. This might be a reasonable jump for my operation if these devises are effective/useful. Since there is so little discussion it leads me to think they may be of little use and my money may be better saved for a better system. Of course I've got everything in for the season so I have time to mull this over. Thanx to any & all that might be able to provide some insight into the strengths &/or weaknesses of these uncappers. Additionally, I am curious about any historical tidbits that might accompany there development or use! Mike Griggs Entomologist/ Support Scientist Plant Protection Research Unit USDA ARS, U.S. Plant, Soil & Nutrition Lab. Tower Road, Ithaca, NY 14853 http://www.ppru.cornell.edu/PPRU.htm phone: 607-255-1085 fax: 607-255-1132 email: mhg3@cornell.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:48:12 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: weather/swarming/crop predictions >> so if the average temperature for the day (the sum of the daily >> high and low, divided by 2) is greater than 55 degrees, > What concerns me is the simplicity of this averaging... > Taking 12 deg C as the trigger point, I can have a day with a low > of 5 deg that occurs for 21 hours out of 24 and a high of 20 deg > that occurs for 3 hrs or I could have a snap frost of 0 deg for an > hour with 25 deg for the rest of the day, both give an average of > 12.5, but I seriously doubt that the growth would be the same under > the two different conditions. > While the figures I have chosen are extreme and would vary in a smooth > periodic way, they are not beyond the bounds of possibility. This is the underlying point - temperatures do tend to slowly warm up towards spring in a smooth progression. Yes, extreme weather can happen, and it certainly would throw one off by a few degree-days. But I doubt if anyone really needs a more precise mechanism, as knowing "the bloom will start this weekend" is useful to a beekeper, where knowing "the bloom will be Sunday at 1:30pm" would be just plain silly. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:43:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Vibrating Knife Uncapper Greetings, I've use a vertical, steam heated, vibrating knife. It's a great improvement over a hand knife. And it can be used on equipment that an automatic uncapper would destroy. Like a hand knife, burr comb can be removed from the edges of the frame, a seperate step with an automatic knife. And a cappings scratcher is seldom needed as the sharp edges of the knife can be use for that purpose. It was standard equipment in the bee operations I've worked in, that produced 100 to 200 barrels per year. They are rugged. And anyone can be trained to safely use them in a few minutes. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:52:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Vibrating Knife Uncapper Hi Again, I've looked at the Kelly machine and it is significantly different than the ones I've used. Kelly's is a horizontal machine with electric heat. It appears to be substantially less robust than the ones I'm familiar with. When I relocated to Alaska, I hauled a new one bought from Dadant up there. I don't remember if Dadant was the manufacturer, but I'm sure they could help you find parts or the manufacturer. Almost all the parts were off the shelf items obtainable at any bearing supply house. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 13:40:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: uncapping knives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike asked "With this background does anyone have experience with vibrating knife uncappers?" Last year I purchased Cowen's "Handyman", vibrating knife system and it is one of the best purchases I ever made. At the time I explained to Dave Cowen that I had about 250 supers and would be increasing. I didn't want to use a chain uncapper and felt my choice was between the "Handyman" and the Silver Queen. The Handyman was brand new, having been developed as part of their new compact setup. Dave recommended the Handyman, which is several thousand dollars less expensive than the Silver Queen. I bit, and it was a wonderful choice. I choose the hand crank and I uncap about two frames a minute. That time includes picking up the frames from a super, placing it in the device, and turning the handle. Turing the handle feeds the comb through the vibrating knives which, in my case, are hot water heated. (Hot water heating system also supplied by Cowen.) After uncapping, the frames are fed onto rails over a Maxant uncapping tank, that I previously owned. The uncapping tank holds 23 frames, and my extractor holds 20 frames. Since purchasing this, I have twice seen Cowen setups purchased by others who spend several thousand more to get an automatic feed into the knives. While they can uncap twice as fast as me, they have nothing useful to do with their time saved as they have to wait for the extractor to catch up! In summary, for a pittance (relatively) get the Cowen Handyman uncapper, with the hot water heating device, and rails to fit over an uncapping tank at least large enough to fill your extractor once. You will be pleased. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 06:57:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Small Scale Syrup Storage In-Reply-To: <200410050403.i94K56tp015407@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I figure I need to be buying syrup about 30 gallons at a time - and I have a source - I just need to provide my own containers. Many Thanks. Andrew Dewey Southwest Harbor, Maine One thing you might consider is a small tank ag sprayer. The tank will hold thirty to fifty gallons of liquie. I, myself, picked one up by hand and moved it when it was about 1/4 full of water. It has a small 12 volt motor/pump attachment on top hooked up to a hand held sprayer which could be modified to just a filler tube. Check you local ag implement/tractor dealer. Mike --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 13:34:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Small Scale Syrup Storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Andrew Dewey wrote: "Can anyone suggest a type of container in the 5-7 gallon capacity that has been used with success for corn syrup being fed to bees? I figure I need to be buying syrup about 30 gallons at a time - and I have a source - I just need to provide my own containers." In my opinion the solution to your requirements and your query is contained within your question, a "container in the 5-7 gallon capacity". Most of the larger grocery stores have complete bakery departments and they use icing/frosting for their cakes and stuff that comes in 5 gallon buckets, with tight sealing lids! After use of these buckets the employees will usually send them out to the crusher or dumpster by the end of the day. My suggestion is for you to stop by their department and ask if you can have some of the empty 5-gallon pails after they have been emptied. There are some frostings from some suppliers that come in smaller sized buckets, but by far the majority used is the 5-gallon bucket. Most of the time just a smile and a kind “Thank you” will find that you’ve got a couple of buckets and tight fitting lids. After you have been stopping by a while and you have accumulated enough buckets and lids to not only take care of your syrup requirements, but also your honey storage requirements, give each of the ladies that have been so kind a jar or two of your best honey. Not only will you have your container problem solved you will also have made a friend and developed a good marketer for your honey. When feeding I suggest that you use pine needles or something that will float, keep the bees from drowning, and still allow access to the syrup. Short of obtaining free 5 gallon buckets, you can find new 5-gallon buckets and lids in the paint departments of most larger hardware stores for under 5 bucks. If you store honey on loan, unused buckets except that used for honey are required. Regards, Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 22:17:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: weather/swarming/crop predictions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JOEL N SWINK wrote: Early spring rain and cool weather has kept my bees from the first of the nectar flow the past two years. They are very partial to the maple trees here and the flow is heavy whether the bees can fly or not. Joel I think that you have hit the nail on the head. It may be interesting to predict when a crop will flower, but if the weather is then so bad that the bees cannot fly then all of our efforts are wasted. This has been the case in the UK this year. Weather up and down like a yo-yo in the spring, then July onwards has been a nightmare. Knowing when crops would flower was really a total irrelevance! It is weather conditions that are more important - had I known in advance that August would be so bad then I would not have wasted time and money hauling bees to the heather moors - and I might have started feeding at the beginning of July! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:04:37 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: Bare foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two members of the list have suggested that comb spacing might be incorrect, perhaps because frames are too far apart, or combs have slumped, thus causing incorrect spacing, and that this has caused bees to chew down cells to the foundation. However the frames are closely spaced and as far as I can tell not slumped - indeed some are Pierco, and non-bare areas are drawn out and full of brood, which indicates that comb spacing is not incorrect. Also re-ordering the frames hasn't resulted in the foundation being redrawn. In fact I think from memory that each bare area is opposite a comb full of brood, but I'll check this at next inspection. Collectively in a brood box of 9 frames the bare areas might be the equivalent of about 1.5 combs, which is quite a significant loss of brood rearing area. Regards, Barry Donovan, New Zealand. Visit our website at http://www.crop.cri.nz ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:30:31 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Donovan Subject: Re: Small cells. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When discussing small cells and varroa reproduction, I wish to draw attention to two papers a couple of years ago, one from South Africa which showed that varroa reproduced just as well in from memory 4.7 mm cells as larger cells, and another study from New Zealand which showed the same results. So if these studies are correct, small cell size in itself does not inhibit varroa reproduction, at least not in South Africa and the North Island of New Zealand. I apologise for not providing references but am busy with pressing work. Also relevant might be the fact that varroa vary in size. Four years ago 7 dead female varroa which I selected at random ranged from 2.20 to 2.30 mm wide, and 1.65 to 1.72 mm long. Almost certainly measuring more would show a greater range. Seems like plenty of scope for selection for smaller varroa to match smaller bee brood - not that this is necessary according to the South African and New Zealand studies. Regards, Barry Donovan, New Zealand. Visit our website at http://www.crop.cri.nz ______________________________________________________ CAUTION: The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential. If you read this message and you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of all or part of the contents is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately. Any opinions or views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not represent those of their employer. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 11:43:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Small cells. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Barry Donovan" " two papers a couple of years ago, from South Africa & New Zealand , > showed that varroa reproduced just as well in 4.7 mm > cells as larger cells" That deals with one question - do mites breed just as well when space in the cell is restricted? What about the second question - do bees uncap more infested cells if those are SMALL-sized ? Did those studies address that? Were the studies in a lab (where natural bee behaviour may have been inhibited) or in the field? If Barry can remember more, it would be interesting. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:14:28 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bare foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I had a similar experience this year. I had one frame that, after last winter, had cells half-filled with pollen that had started to go moldy. (The frame had been outside of the cluster w/ insufficient honey cover through the winter and the humid conditions in the spring encouraged the mold.) As the colony grew in strength in the spring, the bees cleaned the area thoroughly all the way down to the Pierco foundation. Cell walls and rotten pollen were removed completely; I mean the plastic was clean as a whistle over an 8 in. diameter area. But they would not rebuild the comb in this area! They capped honey in the cells all the way around this bare patch but they would rather draw plastic frames a few inches away from the cluster than fill in the bare patch... Finally, 3 months later, they also rebuild this area after they had nowhere else to store honey. The reluctance was very puzzling. I could not figure out what did not agree with them in that one area. Was there a leftover odor of decomposed pollen, did they have 'negative memories' (although the original cleaners would have been long gone since the area was not touched for some 3 months) or do they simply not like plastic. I suppose I could have coated the area with wax... Regards, Waldemar LI, NY =================================== Two members of the list have suggested that comb spacing might be incorrect, perhaps because frames are too far apart, or combs have slumped, thus causing incorrect spacing, and that this has caused bees to chew down cells to the foundation. However the frames are closely spaced and as far as I can tell not slumped - indeed some are Pierco, and non-bare areas are drawn out and full of brood, which indicates that comb spacing is not incorrect.... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:57:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: Bare foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday 06 October 2004 11:04 pm, Barry Donovan wrote: > Regards, > Barry Donovan, > New Zealand. You are just into spring aren't you? Sometimes peirco and permacomb and others aren't always accepted or used rightly be the bees. I also contend that it effects the bees natural system for several potential reasons. Such as heat distribution and the thermal dynamic properties of plastic vs. natural wax. Are you finding that the bees initially chewed away the same sides of the frames? How did you face the hive in relation to the sun? Who knows, just mumbling. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 07:40:12 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: M & T Weatherhead Subject: Re: Small cells. In-Reply-To: <001801c4ac5a$a3223a60$da78bc3e@DellDesk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > showed that varroa reproduced just as well in 4.7 mm > cells as larger cells" I would imagine this study on 4.7mm cells would have been on Africanised bees. It is not easy to transpose results from Africanised bees to European bees in many parts of bee behaviour. As I recall, the New Zealand study was a very short study and in my opinion did not give enough time to really study the effects of small cell on varroa. If I recall correctly, they had great difficulty in getting the bees to draw 4.9 cells. At the time, I thought they did not really give the bees time to size down, not that I am a 100% believer that small cells are the answer. I just think that scientifically you need to be as accurate as possible. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.774 / Virus Database: 521 - Release Date: 7/10/04 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 17:06:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small cells. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Discussion of small cell has produced many many posts (which are in the archives). The complexity of varroa makes discussion very hard to say the least. I do not know of a single researcher which sees small cell as the answer we are looking for. From: "Barry Donovan" " two papers a couple of years ago, from South Africa & New Zealand ,> showed that varroa reproduced just as well in 4.7 mm > cells as larger cells" Barry Seargant of South Africa said in his 600+ hives of scuts varroa is alive and well in the 4.7 - 4.9mm cell size. Maybe Barry will comment if not out in the bush chasing "scuts"? Robin asks: That deals with one question - do mites breed just as well when space in the cell is restricted? Which Halotype are you refering too? Researchers believe now as many as 26 halotypes exist. Size is all over the scale. A excellent drawing ( figure 15.1 "the process of removal, or hygienic, behavior")of what we are talking about is on page 214 of the book "Mites of the Honey Bee" by Delaplane & Webster. 1. a nurse bee detects a parasitised pupa 2.Uncaps the cell and *removes the pupa* The mother varroa mite may escape from the cell , but her offspring most likely would be destroyed in the process. Research done in Germany by Boecking and Drescher found a positive correlation between the removal of mite -infested brood and the removal of freeze-killed brood. In other words lines of bees which are hygienic pull the most brood! I am always skeptical on BEE-L of claims which go against known research especially without proof being offered but will keep an open mind. I looked up information on temperature as a control for varroa. I quote from "The Varroa Handbook" "Sealed frames of brood without bees have been exposed to higher than normal temperatures in an effort to kill varroa in cells" "All nymphal stages of varroa and 80% of all mother mites died in brood exposed to 40C (104F.) for twelve hours or 4-5 hours at 44-45C.(113F). Overall losses of bee brood did not exceed the 5% limit with the testing. I believe one of the reasons the desert bees (Lusby's) tolerate varroa is that she keeps her bees in up to five deep boxes (Bee Culture articles) and even a strong hive can not fan & evaporate enough water ( water is the normal method used by bees as fanning without water can not control the brood temp when outside desert temperatures are around 110F. and even higher at times).to maintain the normal brood temperature which results in death of many varroa and provides varroa tolerance. It is my hypothesis that high desert temperatures and lack of water for evaporation provide a form of natural varroa control at a time of year when varroa population would normally be on the rise. When brood nest temperatures rise varroa dies in sealed cells! I have spoke to the Tucson Bee Lab about my hypothesis but never heard back (sound familiar Dee!). The hypothesis would be hard to test in Missouri but easy to test in Tucson in mid summer. BEES WILL MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO KEEP BROOD NEST TEMPS AT NORMAL LEVELS! My hypothesis is that when the bees fail to keep brood nest temps under control varroa dies as per above quoted research research. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:37:47 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: Small cells. > If I recall correctly, they had great difficulty in getting the > bees to draw 4.9 cells. This has been a common problem with research projects that have, for reasons unknown, chosen to attempt to "downsize" the bees themselves rather than simply rent, borrow, or buy existing downsized colonies. I wonder if they also attempt to build their own woodenware. :) > At the time, I thought they did not really give the bees time to > size down, not that I am a 100% believer that small cells are the > answer. I just think that scientifically you need to be as accurate > as possible. Scientifically speaking, the number of "anecdotal reports" is starting to get hard to ignore. As luck would have it, IR-4 has made its annual call for grant applications for work on "biopesticides", so now is the time to grab your friendly local neighborhood PhD in entomology and ask them why they can't accept some free money to look at rescuing some of the "technological castaways" from their respective Gilligan's Islands of anecdote and apocrypha. http://ir4.rutgers.edu/Docs/2005callforproposals.htm Clearly, the "best" biopesticide would be one that is made of nothing more than wax. ...oh, Trevor likely has no idea... ummm "Gilligan's Island" was a US TV show about a group of people stranded on an island who often amused themselves with attempts to solve various problems they faced with examples of technology so comical that I was able to give an entire mid-term exam to first-year students in college physics by simply playing short clips from the show, and asking "Would this work? If so, why? If not, why not?" Most all of the examples would never have worked in this universe. jim (See Spot. Run!) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::