From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:47:49 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E639749052 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKlZ012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0410C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 54441 Lines: 1360 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:42:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Brown Subject: Re: North Dakota Has A Situation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have heard a beekeeper in Florida was found with it also. Rumor floating arround is that it is used on wet supers for control of small hive bettles. -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 04:56:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Cyanogas, calcium cyanide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Cyanogas, calcium cyanide, is a grey granule... Some beekeepers > killed hundreds of colonies in a day or two, using it... The method > was to spread a spoonful inside the entrance and walk away. I should add, that in larger operations, a specially designed 'dust gun' was used. It was a variation on the dust guns that were commonly used to apply derris dust and other pesticides in gardens. The device held Cyanogas in a small jar. When the operator pushed in (down) the handle of a the air cylinder, a metered amount of dust was expelled with a blast of air into the hive entrance through a short hose. The dust entered the hive in a plume that penetrated inwards among the lower brood combs. Just a little more beekeeping history. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:24:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Hayes Jr, Jerry" Subject: Re: North Dakota Has A Situation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not being one to hide under the covers, there were two drums from the ND lot shipped to Florida but were unopened and promptly accounted for by the State of Florida Compliance Monitoring Bureau. This action by a few beekeepers is totally unacceptable, detrimental to the Florida Honey Producing Industry, and shows a blatant disregard for labeled chemical use. Jerry Hayes, Chief of the Apiary Section, Florida Dept. of Agriculture and Consumer Services. -----Original Message----- From: Greg Brown [mailto:gregorysbrown@LYCOS.COM] Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 9:42 PM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: [BEE-L] North Dakota Has A Situation I have heard a beekeeper in Florida was found with it also. Rumor floating arround is that it is used on wet supers for control of small hive bettles. -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default .asp?SRC=lycos10 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:57:57 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: North Dakota Has A Situation Jerry said, about the sodium cyanide scare: > Not being one to hide under the covers... > This action by a few beekeepers is totally unacceptable, > detrimental to the Florida Honey Producing Industry, and > shows a blatant disregard for labeled chemical use. Jerry's prior life as a mild-mannered employee at a large US bee supply company who shall remain nameless, combined with his current cape-wearing Florida State Apiarist regulatory and educational role gives him a unique perspective to educate his peers in just how widespread "blatant disregard for labeled chemical use" really is among beekeepers and those who sell and promote various toxic chemicals to beekeepers. While handling sodium cyanide certainly presents unique risks not commonly associated with beekeeping, let's just admit up front that it was very popular in the past as a wax-moth fumigant, that old habits die hard, and that there would not have been anywhere near as much hue and cry if not for the current focus on terrorism in the US. The newspaper articles cited in prior posts said: "It is not illegal to possess the chemical, which is largely used in the commercial chrome plating and mining businesses, but it is against the law to use it for an unregistered purpose." Hey! Just like liquid formic acid! Acute risks like chemical burns and incidents of inhalation are much more likely with a liquid than they would be with sodium cyanide powder, as one needs to get sodium cyanide powder wet to create any deadly gasses, and liquid formic acid is much easier to obtain than sodium cyanide. Well Jerry, here's your chance to avoid tragedy before it happens, and stop the blatant disregard for labeled chemical use and uncontrolled use of very hazardous unregistered chemicals in beekeeping. 1) Read the March 2004 Bee Culture article "The Status Of Formic Acid In The US", by Bill Ruzicka Note that the article advocates not only fraud, but also forgery and/or perjury as ways to violate the same exact law that prevents people from buying sodium cyanide for beekeeping use. 2) Note from his schedule: http://www.mitegone.com/forms/Agenda%20Dates%20and%20Location.pdf That he will be in your turf, and subject to Florida laws from Oct 15th - Nov 30th, and is apparently also scheduled to appear on Dec 2nd at the Escarosa Beekeepers Association meeting. 3) Do the right thing. Here's a few quotes from Bill's Bee Culture article: "Suppliers don't ask what customers are the acid for; however, if customers say they want it for bees, suppliers will not sell it to them." So the only way a beekeeper could use Ruzicka's device in the manner that he openly advertises, to kill mites, would require the beekeeper to lie. "Beekeepers must buy formic acid, then, declaring one of many legal uses - from bleaching concrete or tanning leather, to bleaching fabric, or cleansing food packing equipment in a brewery or dairy." So, while there are LEGAL uses for formic acid, beekeeping and killing mites are not among them. So just what part of the phrase "illegal use" is unclear? "Purchasers of formic acid have to sign and receive a declaration that they are an industrial user and they and their staff are trained in the safe handling and use of formic acid..." Beekeeping is clearly not an "industrial" activity in any sense of the word. Proper Haz-Mat training suitable for handling formic acid is expensive, and takes at least a week of classroom time. The simple term for signing any such document would be "fraud". Note that "MiteGone" should not be confused with the other Canadian formic product "Mite-Away". The "Mite-Away" folks are obeying US law, and will soon have their ethical approach rewarded with a full EPA Section 3 approval for their product. jim (A cow born 3 years ago in Canada and all her calves can be tracked down in a matter of weeks, yet illegal immigration remains a problem. The obvious solution is to give away free cows at the US border.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 03:01:33 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: The Law vs the Course of Time In-Reply-To: <044701c4b2cf$bd92deb0$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Acute risks like chemical burns and incidents of > inhalation > are much more likely with a liquid than they would > be with > sodium cyanide powder, as one needs to get sodium > cyanide > powder wet to create any deadly gasses, and liquid > formic > acid is much easier to obtain than sodium cyanide. Fair. Now I think those 2 products present very diffent food contamination risks. In fact, the idea of using cyanid in the hive still makes me fall down of my chair. > So, while there are LEGAL uses for formic acid, > beekeeping > and killing mites are not among them. So just what > part of > the phrase "illegal use" is unclear? That makes me wondering what is wrong. Is liquid formic acid (FA) use for killing mites wrong ? Really ? Then it is time to alert the rest of the world. Or is it wrong that the law is still not up-dated to allow liquid FA use for killing mites ? Or is it wrong that the law will not be modified because nobody has interest to pay in order to obtain the use of a cheap efficient treatment's authorization ? (and I am not sepaking about a commercial specific products here, just liquid FA). What are the process and timetable to aurhorize oxalic acid and FA flash treatment for example ? Proper Haz-Mat training suitable for > handling formic > acid is expensive, and takes at least a week of > classroom time. I am afraid I missed something. Let say I have 1L of FA for beekeeping application, stored in lab's packaging. Just a virtual speculation. What is that expensive Haz-Mat training suitable for handling formic I should have ? A week of classroom time ? It sounds a little bit long to me unless you start from learning to read. A MSDS does not take that time to read. We are not dealing with tons of FA here. 1L is enough for a fair numbers of year for a few hives... Hervé ...only posting when I more or less disagree...just means I agree most of the time ! Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 08:22:24 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: The Law vs the Course of Time > Now I think those 2 products present very diffent food > contamination risks. In fact, the idea of using cyanid > in the hive still makes me fall down of my chair. >From a chemistry standpoint, neither presents ANY food contamination risk when used to the best advantage of each - both are so volatile that there will be nothing left to contaminate honey or wax within... oh, I dunno, certainly a day or two after use, perhaps much quicker. > That makes me wondering what is wrong. Is liquid > formic acid (FA) use for killing mites wrong ? Its not approved for the purpose in the USA, but as you are in Canada, you should know better than I if formic is approved for beekeeping in Canada. I think it is. I was told by someone who tends to know such details that the only reason that Canada has "approval" is that the Canadian government itself "hold the license", and thereby, carries the "liability insurance" to cover formic acid injury claims. Given that Canada has universal health care, Canada can do such things. In the USA, using formic in beekeeping is exactly no more or less "wrong" than using sodium cyanide in beekeeping. As I pointed out, on a annualized casualty-count basis, formic acid is going to burn (or cause eye damage) a lot more people than a cyanide powder would harm in any way, so formic would appear to be "worse", given that we start with an assumption that the only risk is to the beekeeper. Its all fun and games until somebody gets hurt. If you want to get technical, formic acid is going to kill a certain percentage of queens, a certain percentage of brood, and has been known to do enough damage to "kill" the colony in some extreme cases. So the relative technical merits tend to weigh against formic acid, while poor cyanide suffers from bad PR. All those murder mysteries, ya know. :) > Let say I have 1L of FA for beekeeping application, stored > in lab's packaging. Just a virtual speculation. What is that > expensive Haz-Mat training suitable for handling formic I > should have ? If you need to ask, then you clearly are not qualified to handle the stuff! :) First off, do you have kids? If so, you need to lock it up. Second, have you read the paperwork that came with the formic? It should be supplied with specific instructions for storage/handling, so if you need to ask, you have not even read the instructions, a very common problem among beekeepers. :) > 1L is enough for a fair numbers of year for a few hives... As far as I know, 1 liter would be enough for no more than four 250ml hive treatments, so even a typical hobby beekeeper is going to buy, store, and handle more than 1 liter a year. (I'm saying 250ml because this is the dose I've seen used in the Mite-Away literature). > Or is it wrong that the law will not be modified because > nobody has interest to pay in order to obtain the use of a > cheap efficient treatment's authorization ? (and I am not > sepaking about a commercial specific products here, > just liquid FA). By the same logic, the "true crime" is that a cheap and highly efficient wax-moth control that leaves no residue at all is not permitted in beekeeping only because no one wishes to pay for EPA studies about sodium cyanide! Should we send protest letters and file briefs in defense of whoever got caught using (and losing) some sodium cyanide? Face it - neither sodium cyanide or bulk liquid formic acid are ever going to be "approved" in the USA, regardless of how many studies are submitted. In Canada, the larger beekeepers have convinced the government that they can conduct their business in a professional and competent manner, so they get more leeway on Haz-Mat issues. Here in the US, we just had a beekeeper LOSE A DRUM OF SODIUM CYANIDE OUT OF THE BACK OF HIS TRUCK SOMEWHERE ALONG A ROAD so claims about "professionalism" are going to have to wait just a bit. ^.^ jim (For the 6th year in a row, an American has on a Nobel Prize in Economics. If we're so smart...) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 00:15:23 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: The Law vs the Course of Time In-Reply-To: <06ad01c4b37a$cb2b4890$7604c518@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > From a chemistry standpoint, neither presents ANY > food > contamination risk when used to the best advantage > of > each - both are so volatile that there will be > nothing > left to contaminate honey or wax within... oh, I > dunno, > certainly a day or two after use, perhaps much > quicker. I am afraid this is not beekeeping research center conclusion. There are some low risks with FA of accumulation in honey. With regard FA, look at : http://www.apis.admin.ch/index_f.htm and read their recommandations > Its not approved for the purpose in the USA, but as > you > are in Canada, you should know better than I if > formic > is approved for beekeeping in Canada. Indeed, I have "an idea" of its statut over there. In fact, it is even accepted in certified organic beekeeping in most developped countries. I was specificaly questionning you about the situation in the USA, as you knew it by the way... ;-) But gestural effects are part of your charm, aren't they ? ;-))) > In the USA, using formic in beekeeping is exactly no > more > or less "wrong" than using sodium cyanide in > beekeeping. Well, I understand the "law is law", and "don't mess with Texas" :-) and that kind of leitmotives but the law does not prevent people from using their brain (figure of style, not a personnal attack, all this is just for fun !). I think they can question why FA is accepted in certified organic beekeeping in most developped countries and not in their own. If it was my own country, I would repeat what a certain Brittish wrote: something is rotten in the state.. ;-) > As I pointed out, on a annualized casualty-count > basis, > formic acid is going to burn (or cause eye damage) a > lot > more people than a cyanide powder would harm in any > way, I understand your legitim concerns about H&S. But those concerns can not justify FA prohibition use in the hive. They just should guide the way it should be used. That is why I posted : one should not mix H&S and food contamination risk. I did not check, bu my first feeling is that NaCN is very likely to solubize in a water/sugar mix. The potential reactions with acids in honey, the potential of HCN formation and so on would make me worrying a lot. CN- family toxicity does not make me confortable with its use anyway. > so formic would appear to be "worse", given that we > start > with an assumption that the only risk is to the > beekeeper. > Its all fun and games until somebody gets hurt. Caution is a great virtu, but honnestly the logic that says "this product presents some H&S risks so one can not use it at all" is quite utopic... and unfair. Once again, it can not be a justification for FA prohibition but it should guide the way FA is used. If I follow your logic, I think it is time to stop playing with guns out there... a lot of people already got hurt...but it is not the point. ;-) > If you want to get technical, formic acid is going > to kill > a certain percentage of queens, a certain percentage > of > brood, and has been known to do enough damage to > "kill" > the colony in some extreme cases. Those points have been quite documented. The risks (here I mean the risk for bees) depend on the way it is used. In pads used in hives for several days, it is difficult to control vaporization. But with "flash treatment", your aim is to achieve a pic concentration in the hive, this pic concentration is limited by the quantity you used. See (all links copied and pasted from Chapleau's paper because I am lazy, as you know): Instructions pour l’utilisation ponctuelle de l’acide formique Centre suisse de recherches apicoles http://www.apis.admin.ch/index_f.htm Short Term Treatment with Formic Acid Wolfgang Poehlmann http://home.t-online.de/home/wolfgang.poehlmann/bass.htm Guideline on Use of Formic Acid for Varroa Control Ministère de l’agriculture de la Nouvelle Zélande http://www.maf.govt.nz/biosecurity/pests-diseases/animals/varroa/guidelines/formic-acid-guideline.htm And do not forget Chapleau's web site www.reineschapleau.wd1.net So the relative > technical > merits tend to weigh against formic acid, while poor > cyanide > suffers from bad PR. It is a heavy conclusion to assume. The demonstration is far from being done... you will have to paddle hard to convince me. > What is that > > expensive Haz-Mat training suitable for handling > formic I > > should have ? > > If you need to ask, then you clearly are not > qualified to > handle the stuff! :) Asking the question does not mean one has not he answere...bu you knew it again ;-) First off, do you have kids? > If so, > you need to lock it up. You mean lock it up with other beekeeping stuff like registered check-mite, apistan, or unregistered in the USA oxalic acid, and so on ? Yes, of course. FA did not change my chemical storage habits although I have not all those products, fortunatly. Second, have you read the > paperwork > that came with the formic? It should be supplied > with > specific instructions for storage/handling, so if > you need > to ask, you have not even read the instructions, a > very common > problem among beekeepers. :) If I had not read the complete MSDS I would not asked the question to you, would I ? ;-)) But finnaly, you did not really respond the question :-). > > 1L is enough for a fair numbers of year for a few > hives... > > As far as I know, 1 liter would be enough for no > more than > four 250ml hive treatments, The problem is that we do not speak, or write, about the same application method. I do not care about commercial pads, I am afraid, nor long exposure treatment that threaten my bees. Lets say I have 85% FA in liquid solution. I need to apply 40 mL / hive of 65% FA solution. I think even the average beekeeper knows the Lavoisier's law and is able to multiply and divide. Lets' remember when we were kids at school : o : initial f: final C: concentration V: volume CoVo = Cf Vf Vo = CfVf/Co Numeric application : Vo = 65/85x40 = about 30 mL / hive (because 30.6 is uneasy to measure) Number of treatments with 1 L: 1/0.03 = 33 treatments Cost per treatment : about 30¢, pipettes, gloves, wind and device not included. > By the same logic, the "true crime" is that a cheap > and > highly efficient wax-moth control that leaves no > residue > at all is not permitted in beekeeping only because > no one > wishes to pay for EPA studies about sodium cyanide! I confess I really do not know about this cyanide stuff. I can not advocate it and I would not want. But my point is, from the beginning, that it can not be compared with FA considering the existing documentation of FA use in beekeeping througout the world. The comparison seems irrelevant to me. If one want to justify sodium cyanide, then lets document it. FA already made its proofs (is that English ?). :-) > Should > we send protest letters and file briefs in defense > of whoever > got caught using (and losing) some sodium cyanide? I can not follow your logic here. Because someone got caught with a prohibited pill, one should keep prohibiting Tylenol while it has been being safely used in 100 other countries for years ? > Face it - neither sodium cyanide or bulk liquid > formic acid > are ever going to be "approved" in the USA, > regardless of how > many studies are submitted. And do you think it is fair and it should be well accepted by all of you ? One should clearly distinguish FA case from NaCN case, they are 2 very different products. That was my almost-only point ! ;-) Hervé More French than Canadian but Canadian French among the French Canadians and vice versa Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:29:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Varroa mite levels In-Reply-To: <000d01c4b1b0$bf1b14c0$df08a5c3@pomi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, I would be most interested to get an indication of varroa mite levels as present in bee colonies for the season 2004. Having for some reason a very low level of mites present in my colonies (resulting in the non treatment before wintering), I am wondering if there is a cyclical pattern in their numbers over the years - one that may even show through the different treatment regimes used. Ta! Peter P.S. First snow has fallen here in South Manitoba, therefore presume that winter is somewhere near. Canola harvest still underway. Much of the sunflower crop stands with heads bend and seed cases consisting of moulding creamy material good for those fibre bars! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 19:31:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re Varroa Mite levels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/10/2004 05:05:52 GMT Standard Time, Peter Dillon writes: > Having for some reason a very low level of mites present in my colonies > > Peter, How do you know? What do you consider low? Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 07:19:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa mite levels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter asks: I would be most interested to get an indication of varroa mite levels as present in bee colonies for the season 2004. I am seeing the same as I have been. Different levels with different stocks before treatment. Also different levels between hives in those stocks but none with PMS. Those I have treated mite levels are now at a reasonable level. I do have one large yard to give the last varroa treatment to and final test but done with the others. Untreated hives surviving with no signs of PMS. I did pick up a robbed out hive in a untreated yard last week. Always a risk when honey flows end in fall. I know of three large outfits having serious varroa problems. The first treatment they tried did not work on all hives to control varroa so they were forced to try another type of control and they are all waiting to see the results of the second method All the outfits have got already a large number of deadouts. Testing done in Missouri and in the south of installing the *patent pending varroa tolerant queen *into a hive with a very high varroa load and seeing the varroa load drop to a reasonable varroa load has been met with success. Our success was higher in Missouri than in the south but we only installed five queens and in the south they did hundreds but proves to *me* the value of installing a varroa tolerant queen. I hope next fall to have Russian/Russian queens to install and see if the varroa load will drop in a hive with rapidly rising varroa load in August in Missouri. I believe Russians have been tried as above in the south. I intend to try and will see if I can find out results from trials by another beekeeper in the south doing Russian testing. To be successful with the above you need to install the varroa tolerant queen early enough in fall for her daughters to replace many of the old queens daughters. Eight weeks is about right although results have been seen earlier at times and to be fair results are usually 50% at best. I always remind myself of the "Yugo bee" when I see positive results in varroa tolerance. For those on the list not familiar with the Yugo bee. The Yugo bee in Yugoslavia was surviving varroa and had not been treated in fifteen years. When moved into other areas the varroa tolerance dropped to the same levels as other colonies in the area. Researchers were baffled. My hypothesis is the original varroa the Yugo was exposed to was a less virulent strain than the second strain but I was never involved so only an uneducated guess. Varroa destructor was discovered after the Yugo project. Are others hearing of beekeepers with higher than normal varroa problems? A large beekeeping supply house this weekend said the reports they are getting are split. Some with problems and some without. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:24:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: Varroa mite levels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hi to all, > > I would be most interested to get an indication of varroa mite levels as > present in bee colonies for the season 2004. > Hello, Here in south eastern Ontario we have had a fairly cool,wet summer. But the honey was still very good for me. Using formic acid pads I had an average mite fall of 25-50 mites in 24hrs. This lasted for about a week then tapered off. Kent Stienburg :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:42:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Re Varroa Mite levels In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade asked how do I know about my varroa mite levels? - I do not know, but hope that I have some sort of indication about what is present. I started this season with 4 frame nucs. Beginning of July, once fairly stable and fewer pressures, I started slipping in sticky boards on a 2 week basis. Counts were at zero, one or two mites over 48 hours. No higher. Final counts just before winter treatment time still were giving these low drop amounts. I did not want to go into winter without a second opinion - wondering if my "technique" was at fault, so with Manitoba's Provincial beekeeper, alcohol washes were performed. 3 apiary sites, 5 colonies in each taking approx. 300 bees. Result: 2 mites obtained. The bees were washed twice. Hearsay indicates that mite levels in the province are low - and I was wondering why; if there was a time pattern, or some indicator that might predict if the overall population of varroa had some type of cyclical nature. For the prairies, the Canadian Association of Professional Apiculturalist have produced on their website a indication of what the "threshold values" are and what treatments to undertake depending on the season and previous mite levels in colonies. This has been complicated somewhat with the appearance of the so called "resistant Mite" - leading to the recommendation to treat with checkmite. I did not wish to do this unless pushed into the corner. I have not yet been able to set up to get any sort of resistant bee stock as present in the North Americas. I am now aware that Russian stock is present in my area, that there are beekeepers who are interested in the makeup of their colonies and are not just honey harvesters. There are also beekeepers who over several years have been trying to direct their stocks to ones that are compatible to the harsh Manitoban climate - and are now also trying to get resistance to varroa built in as well. Since I have only been here for several months, there are many details that are unknown to me at present. Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:46:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Troy Fore Subject: Honey Bee vs. Wasp Identification Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Can someone direct me to an easy to access web page that shows how to discriminate between honey bees and other insects, particularly wasps. I need a site to which to refer non-beekeepers. Troy Fore Executive Director American Beekeeping Federation, Inc. P.O. Box 1337 ‹ Jesup, Georgia 31598-1337 USA Street Address: 115 Morning Glory Circle - ZIP: 31546 Tel. 912-427-4233 ‹ Fax 912-427-8447 Internet: Serving the Industry Since 1943 Get ready for Reno/Lake Tahoe and ABF/2005 - our 62nd annual convention - at John Ascuaga's Nugget, Jan. 12-15, 2005. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:18:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Re Varroa Mite levels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter said: Result: 2 mites obtained. I would not treat! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:14:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa mite levels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Using formic acid pads I had an average mite fall of 25-50 mites in 24hrs. This lasted for about a week then tapered off. The above is of no value without knowing the varroa load before treatment started. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:00:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Honey Bee vs. Wasp Identification In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Troy Fore asked for a webpage "that shows how to discriminate between honey bees and other insects, particularly wasps." Try this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_tell_bees_from_wasps Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:28:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Re Varroa Mite levels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" To: Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 7:18 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Re Varroa Mite levels > Peter said: > Result: 2 mites obtained. > > I would not treat! > > Bob > Dear Bob and All, What we have is more on the lines of a genetic shift. Both the mites and bees. The ones that treated too much are getting the rewards now. Major loss do to resistance. California in the US is in a big mess. 15,000 hives down and counting. They are trying all the chemicals. They have been using a 3 day spread to see if anything works. At this writing Mites 100 - beekeepers 0 . The good news comes after it is all over. The stock that is left has a chance.More knowledge and application to the knowledge will save beekeeping. Chemicals are out.The wonderful work that the Rinderer group are doing will pay off for all of us. Two years ago I requeened 180 %. I was culling out for hygienic behavior.. I have gone 3 years with out chemicals.. You have to learn from the bees.They will show you , but you need to understand that they may have some different traits. Queen cells is one of them. Check on the 8th day and see that they have broken it down on there own. They can get a little more aggressive if the weather turn bad. They love to protect the hive. I us screen boards on all my hives.. We need to let the weak ones go down or requeen. This is not a cake walk. We do need a lot of help from the queen breeders. They need to pay very close attending to there breeder stock. Stop to think about it, after 30,000,000 year with out chemicals and the bee is still here , stop and watch what they do. We may have to change some management ideas , but it is well worth it. Mites are going in cycles , just like everything else in nature. Don't go deeper, you will get lost. Very complex , this thing nature. I would like to thank Dee for Her work and the guts to go against the flow.Think NO chemicals in beekeeping and you will win in the long run. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries Tahuya Wa. 98588 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:32:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: Honey Bee vs. Wasp Identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/18/2004 1:27:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, troyfore@ABFNET.ORG writes: Can someone direct me to an easy to access web page that shows how to discriminate between honey bees and other insects, particularly wasps. I need a site to which to refer non-beekeepers. Here is a good one. http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/insect/05525.html Jim Hock :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:59:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Bees and wasps Comments: cc: fasulo@ufl.edu In-Reply-To: <200410190402.i9J3vpiu015942@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Troy Fore asked for a webpage "that shows how to discriminate between >honey bees and other insects, particularly wasps." Try this page: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_tell_bees_from_wasps > > >Mike Rossander >Now that you've seen this, try my buddy Tom Fasulo's Featured Creatures >for more in-depth treatment of many insects: http://creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/ check out Florida's yellowjackets http://creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/urban/occas/hornet_yellowjacket.htm Malcolm T. Sanford Professor Emeritus, University of Florida http://beeactor.vze.com 352-336-9744 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:13:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: EF Phillips digitization project Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Thanx to the Tampa Bay Beekeepers Association there is a challenge to match up to $1000 donation to digitize more books from the EF Phillips collection at Mann Library at Cornell University; http://bees.library.cornell.edu/. Should we match their offer and add in their previous donation we could double the number of on-line offerings to the beekeeping community. Remember your donation is to a tax exempt entity, it will help preserve this collection of old books and it will make these books available to anyone with a computer with internet access! Time is ticking away !! I realize people are still finishing out this years work before they have a brief respite to think about such things but as fall & winter meetings become better attended please take this information to your state & local meeting groups! For more information check out the following! http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ http://www.easternapiculture.org/programs/ http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/news.htm http://eshpa.org/eshpa_1.htm Or contact me or the library as the TTBA offer continues to the end of Dec 04 Mike Griggs President Finger Lakes Beekeeping Association EAS 2002 president :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:38:15 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd, Xerces Society" Subject: Re: Honey Bee vs. Wasp Identification Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For a slightly more technical guide -- but based on easy to see= characteristics -- try the key to common wasps and bees of northern= California produced by UC Davis: http://bohart.ucdavis.edu/content/insects/wasp_key.pdf ____________________________________________________ The Xerces Society for Invertebrate Conservation Matthew Shepherd Director, Pollinator Conservation Program 4828 SE Hawthorne Boulevard, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org Web: www.xerces.org ____________________________________________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:43:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Small Hive beetle now in second WV county MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The small hive beetle is now in Jackson County, West Virginia USA. Jackson's beekeepers will be holding a meeting with State Inspectors at the Ripley Library, in Ripley, WV at 10am to discuss the situation and the next step to deal with the nasty little critter. Some might not know it but this beetle can hurt other agricultural crops like fruit trees. I hope most has already got the apples and any other fruits picked long ago. Russ Dean Jackson County Beekeepers :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:21:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: Re: Honey Bee vs. Wasp Identification In-Reply-To: <200410200403.i9K43Cjj003839@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 10/20/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Here is a good one. I came a cross a great photo on the Internet of a honeybee fighting with a yellowjacket, but alas, I have only a paper print now. The two clearly showed their distinctions so that an observer would never misidentity a bee again. If anyone knows the location of this, or can send it to me, I would be most grateful. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:45:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: Honey Bee vs. Wasp Identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Rob Green mentioned a photograph of a yellow jacket fighting with a bee that clearly shows the differences between the two. I expect this one is it: Not only is it a nice, clear image, it is also a stereo pair so you can see it in 3-D! -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:21:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Hayes Jr, Jerry" Subject: Apiary Sites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 The State of Florida manages "water" through Water Management Districts. In the past Beekeepers have been restricted to access to land managed by these districts. With some prodding from my Section they are now considering licensing or leasing sites to Florida Beekeepers. I have been asked if any other states do this and if there is a template that is currently being used for us to review for use here. So, the question is are there any out there who are aware of this by other states? Thanks Jerry =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 G. W. Hayes, Jr. Assistant Chief Bureau of Plant and Apiary Inspection Apiary Inspection Section Division of Plant Industry P O Bx 147100 Gainesville FL 32614-7100 (352) 372-3505 ext 128 (352) 334-0715 FAX =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:17:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Honey Bee vs. Wasp Identification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, > > > Not only is it a nice, clear image, it is also a stereo pair so > you can see it in 3-D! > To see it in 3-D you can simply cross your eyes while looking at the two pictures side by side, as seen, until the two pictures merge and come together as if one, picture is in between with two on each side. So you will see three pictures while your eyes are crossed a little and the center picture is the fully 3-D version of the picture. It is quite easy to do. Thanks for sharing the site, it would be fun to be able to obtain one of those lenses to take some interesting photos of lots of things. I just spoke to the gentleman in the Netherlands that manufactures these lenses and he has a high quality product that are highly competitively priced. Very good lenses. Here is their URL for more information; http://www.dewijs-3d.com/ He is a beekeeper also like most of us here on Bee-L . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:58:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Metarhizium anisopliae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct04/bees1004.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::