From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:47:17 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.4 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, BODY_ENHANCEMENT2,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A4049042 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDK1012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:18 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0411A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 168559 Lines: 3715 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 05:18:56 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Re: Record keeping by commercial beekeepers. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recently worked on a system for a commercial beekeeper who runs about 3,000 hives between Florida and Maine, moving his bees arround for polliation (most hives) but also placing some out in locations for honey production only. He runs one or two supers over his hives placed for pollination, over an excluder. Here is what he tracks: - when and where (grower, location and crop) the hives were first dropped - the "basis date", or date when the bees on site were last swapped with fresh bees (he may pull the hives from the original drop and replace with fresh bees; the pulled hives have honey pulled off, checked for disease, possibly medicated (FGMO) and deployed again at another grower) - when the hives were pulled. - when the hives were moved (and if swapped for fresh bees at the same time) He knows what pollination rate he is getting by crop. Sometimes a grower will request additonal bees if there is a competing floral source that is distracting the bees from the first drop (honey locust in the woods, or some other blossom that is taking the bees away from his crop), and those bees ("short term bees") get a discounted rate because they are not there for the whole bloom. Similarly, sometimes a grower will request the bees to stay past the original bloom, for some late crops (there is a small fee for "late crops"). He may also be asked to move the bees from the first drop to a different site at the same farm. He will charge a small amount for each move. Basically he wants my software to make it easy for him to key in his drop/pull/move information (input is fast and mostly by mouse); to find out quickly where all of his bees are and how long they've been there; to find out how long since his deployed bees have been swapped with fresh bees (need to have honey pulled off). He also wants to generate invoices, show for each grower what the invoice amount is, when it was printed (sent), how much is already paid, and what is outstanding, and finally, he wants a "first of year letter" for each grower showing how many bees he used, when his bees were dropped and pulled, and the date-weighted average date that his bees arrived, together with next year's pollination rate for each of the crops the grower needs bees for. Because he is constantly looking over this inventory and assessing the bees when they are pulled or swapped, they get inspected rigorously and problems dealt with as they arise. Records per hive are not kept, nor are hives indivually numbered. He places a premium on educated staff that handles the bees with care and routinely inspects for colony health. /C.Crowell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:21:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Increase in Indian honey harvest In-Reply-To: <003f01c4bfa4$873118a0$d4b187d9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 10,000 tonne predicted increase in 3 years. 10,000 tonnes = 10,000,000 kg Chris Slade mentioned a harvest average of 18 kg. To round it off, average harvest = 20 kg / per colony. 10,000,000kg / 20kg = 500,000 colonies Divided by 3 seasons = 166,666 colony increase / annum. That is some increase - esp. if the infra structure for dealing with material is either non existent or rudimentary. I suppose that I would be able to expand at a fair rate, trouble is that Stainless material, honey house bits and regulations are so costly. Should have moved to India instead of Canada! Esp. if the finance is there. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:29:57 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Increase in Indian honey harvest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "ALDEN MARSHALL" there is no evidence that drones rearing reduces the production of worker brood". Assuming: (1) a queen will lay to her capacity in the spring build-up; (2) nurse bees will rear all the larvae for which they can secrete brood food , does it not follow inevitably that if the colony is encouraged to rear say 10% of brood as drones, production of workers must be reduced by 10%? And the forager force subsequently reduced by 10%? Don't actually know myself if 10% is a good guess for the level of drone production in spring needed to control varroa. But yes, such cost to the honey crop may well be worth it - varroa have to be controlled until/unless the bees themselves can keep numbers to tolerable levels. Any comments? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:35:04 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Increase in Indian honey harvest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Peter Edwards" " I was in Kerala, S. India, earlier this year and saw many very prosperous > cerana colonies. The average yield had been 18kg per colony." Can Peter throw light on Peter Dillon's orginal point - how exactly are Indian beekeers are avoiding losses from varroa and viruses? What control do they use? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:01:03 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Record keeping and equalizing by commercial beekeepers. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" I take notes everytime I *enter* and *leave* a bee > yard. I also many times take the notebooks in the house at night to look > over again to plan the next day" I have never solved the problem with notebooks that it seems natural to record the state of each colony working HIVE BY HIVE (eg H3 needs 3rd super), whereas to plan the next trip, I need lists by TASKS ( eg extra supers needed on hives H3, H6, y, z..= take total 12 extra supers.) This implies making notes twice if using a purely manual system - time consuming - so I trust my memory which then always fails me. Does Bob make HIVE NOTES on site and then make up TASK LISTS at home later? Or is there a trick? (Like throwing coloured marbles in a bucket to count extra supers needed, and just weighing the bucket later). Or perhaps every apiary is treated as just one unit, with all hives being given the same average treatment? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:24:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: fondant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Donald and All:=20 I think that you are correct about propolis darkening wax melter honey. = I remember reading in the Hive and the Honeybee that care should be = taken to not heat honey in the processing line with any wax present for = this reason. The other comments you made do not really apply to my wax melter which = is a 300 gallon stainless steel water jacketed tank with no radiant heat = and no internal water pipes. The water jacket has pipes connected to a = wood boiler and an electric element as well to supply that last = temperature rise. However, I notice that my melter honey is now much = darker than it used to be when I used a maxant melter with a sloping = bottom that continually drained off the melted honey/wax. This is why I = figured time factors in. I looked up caramelization last night and investigated about 20 hits. = It seems that it is a very complex process involving several different = chemical reaction, polymerization and is affected by enzymes. The = temperatures at which it occurs are different for different sugars: sucrose 160 C glucose 160 C fructose 110 C So this I think is a possible explanation about fondant: the sugars = used are sucrose and glucose which both have caramelization temperatures = much higher than the fondant making temperatures. But melter honey = would have a very high percentage of fructose and since the melter is = running just a little lower than the caramelization temperature of = fructose I believe some is probably happening (my taste buds indicate = it). At the temperatures indicated above caramelization is supposed to = proceed very quickly, but with such a complex reaction some probably = happens at lower temperatures but more slowly. Enzymes in the honey = might also help to catalyze the breaking of hydrogen bonds which is = apparently necessary. Regards Stan =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:48:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Record keeping by commercial beekeepers. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks, Curtis. It seems this beekeeper wants to manage his logistics better and is satisfied with his staff making hive decisions on the spot. I was wondering if [any] commercial beekeepers do large scale hive evaluations that hobby beekeepers would be more likely to do. Particularly, the large operators who raise their own queens. But I guess most commercial beekeepers 'only' check for diseases, re-queen regularly with purchased stock, gage their hives by their honey production, and combine underperforming hives at re-queening time. Even treating for varroa would need to be done across the board -- doing mite counts and keeping track of thousands of hives would be very time-consuming. Is my thinking correct? Our LI Beekeeping Club once hosted a migratory commercial beekeeper from Australia who said that his 'measuring stick' was the weight of each colony after a flow. Those that were under par would be checked for disease and typically requeened. Regards, Waldemar LI, NY =================================================== >>I recently worked on a system for a commercial beekeeper who runs about 3,000 hives between Florida and Maine, moving his bees arround for polliation (most hives) but also placing some out in locations for honey production only. He runs one or two supers over his hives placed for pollination, over an excluder. Here is what he tracks: - when and where (grower, location and crop) the hives were first dropped - the "basis date", or date when the bees on site were last swapped with fresh bees (he may pull the hives from the original drop and replace with fresh bees; the pulled hives have honey pulled off, checked for disease, possibly medicated (FGMO) and deployed again at another grower) - when the hives were pulled. - when the hives were moved (and if swapped for fresh bees at the same time) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:00:06 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Increase in Indian honey harvest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin > Assuming: (1) a queen will lay to her capacity in the spring build-up; A queen can only lay to the capaicty at which she is fed by workers. There is no reason to suggest that this is her maximum possible rate. > does it not follow inevitably that if the colony is encouraged to rear say > 10% of brood as drones, production of workers must be reduced by 10%? Too simplistic, I am not saying that drones are raised at 'no cost', but the production of drones actually spurs more activity, particulary in pollen gathering (it takes about six times as much pollen to rear a drone than a worker). This extra activity is easy to find as the workers are never as 'busy' as many assume and can always do more if it is required. Levels of drones that naturally occur are between 17% and 23%. I have worked with colonies with as many as 50% drones that still produce at least some surplus honey, yet each drone requires considerably more in resources to raise as it is 200% of the volume of a worker (the high demand for pollen is due to the volume of the sexual parts being a considerable proportion of the whole). If raising drones was at the cost of worker brood, then levels of 50% would not be possible, because the resources needed to build a drone are about eight times that required to build a worker. There is an opposite side to this coin... If you deliberately reduce the amount of drones that a colony produces, far from allowing a larger colony of workers, the level of workers also falls as well as the work rate of those that are available being lowered. Regards & Best 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Temporary Conditions... Using 'PATCHY' VPN pass-through server 2nd build :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:33:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, North Alabama did not have a bad winter last year. We in turn, did not lose many. Last year during the season, was a time of the disappearing disease. Some of us lost several then. I have not treated for, nor have I seen, any mites to speak about. Very little sign of damage. Lionel North Alabama ------------------------------------------------- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by PCLNET, and is believed to be clean. Visit www.pclnet.net and get a 3Mbps cable modem! ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:54:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lesli St. Clair" Subject: Re: Increase in Indian honey harvest In-Reply-To: <004101c4bf38$0b53eda0$9b84bc3e@DellDesk> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Robin Dartington wrote: > > Any comments from beekeepers in temperate areas who rely strongly on > spring > drone removal? I'm a new beekeeper who is trying to stay as organic as possible. My comments reflect both of those perspectives. My method this first summer was a combination of things, including screened bottom boards, essential oils in the feed (both build up and fall), powered sugar shakes to check for mites, and, yes, drone brood frames. Some background (because all beekeeping is local, and not all bees are equal): I have two hives. I bought Italians from Buckeye Bee. One hive arrived with a mated queen and all Italian-appearing bees. The other arrived with a virgin supersedure queen, and a mix of Italian and Carniolian-appearing bees. That virgin mated after she arrived. Dunno with whom, of course, but some of the offspring still have a Carniolan appearance, though she looks Italian. There are a couple of other apiaries within a ten mile radius, but I don't know the beekeepers or the bees they keep. I'm in Upstate NY. My intention this first season was to learn, learn, learn. I spent about an hour a day observing the hives, and opened them every two weeks or so, so that I would have first-hand knowledge of what goes on the hives and to develop my own skills. Mite counts were low on every check. None in the powdered sugar shakes and a max of 5 in the drone brood frames. My bees were hived from nucs on June 23rd; one colony produced about 40 lbs of honey, the other no surplus, but they built up well for winter. On to the frames of drone brood: If you're a commercial beekeeper, bees' effort aside, I can't see doing it. It is labor intensive (for the humans!), and in a large operation, you would risk spreading disease shuffling frames among hives. For a hobbyist who isn't interested in eeking out every last ounce of honey, I see it as a good way to check for mite levels. I'm interested in healthy colonies first, honey production second. Bees are expensive; why use a method that produces more honey, but may force me to buy new spring packages? Am I "putting the breaks on"? Maybe. But again, production is second, health is first. Destroying a few thousand drones that might have been worker brood might cost me--what? A few quarts of honey? OK. But by now, we all know that mites can develop resistance to chemicals. So I'm taking the long view. Until I have bees that can handle the mites on their own (and one way or another, I'm sure that that can happen), I'm using methods that won't contribute to that resistance while keeping my bees as healthy as possible. Now, if we could sell drone brood as a delicacy, it might make it worth the effort for the commercial beekeeper. :) Lesli :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:11:39 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: fondant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bill Truesdell" wrote: > It is a good supplemental feed and my guess is, for > those who feed it in the fall, it does not come into play until the late > winter/early spring if the bees went into the winter with normal stores. > Plus, fondant is more expensive than either sugar syrup or HFCS. It > makes little sense to use it as a fall feed If fed early, the bees store it as they would sugar syrup. Fed later, they do not take it down, but eat up into it as required - leaving the brood nest open for late breeding and storage of nectar from late flows. Yes, it is more expensive than sugar, but for me it has the huge advantage of saving time. I do not have the time or facilities to mix sufficient sugar syrup for 200 colonies, nor do I relish transporting that much syrup to out-apiaries, but I can order fondant when I am ready to feed and get the delivery within a week. A pallet load of 12.5kg boxes of fondant is transferred from the tail lift of the delivery vehicle to my trailer and I can then feed all my colonies easily in 2-3 days. As fondant can be fed at any time through the winter, there is no hurry to get feeding finished by the traditional 2nd week in September (so that the bees can invert and store the sugar syrup) and, because it is easy to top up in the early spring, there is no need to 'over-feed' - most of my colonies get only 8kg of fondant in the autumn and most do not require spring feeding. As far as I know, HFCS is not used in the UK. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:34:29 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: fondant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bill Truesdell" wrote: > Both are fondant if you are a cook, in fact most recipes call for 234F > for fondant. The reason is the fondant is made with sugar only and you > need that temperature to have a paste, otherwise you are working with a > thick syrup. Agree that cooks would not make any fine distinction, but the Bakers' Fondant that I buy is heated to only 221F and is a very firm paste. Obviously consistency will depend on the amount of water added to the sugar/glucose syrup. > Websters defines fondant as "candy made of a thick creamy sugar paste" so consistancy > defines fondant, not temperature. I prefer the authority of the Oxford dictionary, which gives candy as 'sugar crystallised by repeated boiling and slow evaporation' - i.e. the sugar solution is 'cooked' for some time to evaporate the water, resulting in the temperature of the mixture rising. In contrast, it tells us that the etymology of fondant is French 'melting', from the Latin 'fundere' pour. So the Bakers' Fondant is heated just enough to 'melt' the ingredients, whereas a candy is then cooked further. That is my view anyway! > You are still a long way from carmalization which is 310-338F. Agreed, the famous Mrs Beeton states that if sugar boiling is prolonged after it reaches 312F then it some begins to acquire a golden colour. > There are fondants on the market that use Tartaric Acid (an ingredient > in some cookbooks and recipes for bee's overwintering syrup) and other > ingredients which are not good for overwintering bees in cold climates. Not just cold climates, acid inverted sucrose is stated to be toxic to bees (LE Dills 1925). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:37:31 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Increase in Indian honey harvest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Robin Dartington" asked > Can Peter throw light on Peter Dillon's orginal point - how exactly are > Indian beekeers are avoiding losses from varroa and viruses? What control > do they use? As we are talking about cerana, there is no varroa problem. The TSBV was bad in the early 90's, but they have bred from the survivors and now have largely resistant stock. If I lived in Kerala I would be very happy to run large numbers of cerana. The hives are small and easy to lift and the bees are a joy - wonderful temper (no veils, no smoke), and no propolis or brace comb in the ones that I saw. By contrast, some mellifera were suffering with varroa (not all - but give it time!) and Bee-eaters are a major problem - they love those big, fat, juicy, yellow mellifera queens when they fly to mate! Tropilaelaps is also attacking mellifera and, I suspect, will become a major problem in time. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:11:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Record keeping and equalizing by commercial MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin said: I have never solved the problem with notebooks. I keep track of milege also with the notebooks but could simply record the milege at start of year and at years end as the trucks are only used for business purposes but not a problem to log in and out during the day and my CPA /accountant likes the notebooks if an audit happens. Her exact words were milege at start of day and end. Locations I went to and what we did. . >Does Bob make HIVE NOTES on site and then make up TASK LISTS at home later? I write particular information about hives I need to check on the next trip to the hives. An example would be the word weak (W), check next trip (CNT), Neds fed, does not need feed, ck queen, queenright etc. on the hive itself. Queen info in code on label held with tack on hive. At times I move hives into a 35 acre holding yard and am glad I have got information on the hives as the notebooks are of little use. Also if shipped to California or other areas and you use different queens from different breeders you can tell which hive is which when they return. Robin asks: Or perhaps every apiary is treated as just one unit, with all hives being given the same average treatment? Bingo! I strive for the above but beekeeping is not perfect so problems always arrive. I carry everything I might need *except feed* on the everyday trucks such as extra supers, tops , excluders etc. I use another truck for feeding which can carry four to 500 gallons of syrup at a time if the need arises. I am very stingy with feed but always glad to feed hives which really need feeding. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:32:33 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: M & T Weatherhead Subject: Re: Increase in Indian honey harvest In-Reply-To: <008301c4bffc$1a65a7b0$b33a74d5@DellDesk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I was in Kerala, S. India, earlier this year and saw many very prosperous > cerana colonies. The average yield had been 18kg per colony." Can Peter fill us in on how they "extract" and "process" their honey? What equipment is used etc.? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 1/11/04 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:04:25 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Increase in Indian honey harvest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor asked: > Can Peter fill us in on how they "extract" and "process" their honey? > What equipment is used etc.? The equipment that I saw was very basic - hand-operated extractors (I guess that labour is cheap) and honey stored in galvanised tanks holding perhaps 500lbs each. Bottling was done manually into old spirit bottles (but one beekeeper did use new caps!) - conveniently, a 75cl bottle holds 1kg of honey (goodness knows who empties that many Scotch bottles!). To be fair, I was out with small(ish) outfits in the forest, with up to 2500 hives and concentrated more on the beekeeping (mellifera, cerana and Trigona) than on the extracting and marketing side (the holiday was not primarily a 'beekeeping' holiday and coincided with the very start of the flow from rubber - so there was no extracting in progress). I am planning to return next year and will hope to find out much more. Tamil Nadu is probably much more advanced than Kerala as far as beekeeping is concerned (it has the highest production of the Indian states) and I hope one day to be able to explore there. It would certainly seem that Tamil Nadu is more likely to be in a position to export than Kerala at present, but there is tremendous potential; most of the honey in the south comes from the rubber plantations - and Kerala has 550,000 acres of them! In 2003 we were in the North of India and saw many hives beside the road from Jaipur to Agra - mile after mile of mustard in full flower and apiaries with hundreds of colonies (mellifera) at intervals of perhaps 1/4 or 1/2 mile. Production must have been good, given the conditions, but extracting honey in a tent on-site would probably not go down too well with our authorities! http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/March2003.htm Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:46:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: No Treatment for a Year and Then Some... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In regard to previous discussion in this thread (see http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0410A&L=bee-l&D=0&P=1552) and http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2004/diary100104.htm and http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2004/diary110104.htm > Possible interpretation: > Knowing that these hives were sampled and numbered from one end of the > outfit to the other end, and that the hives are mostly in four-packs, > we see that the high counts are grouped in one area. > a.. Did one hive (17) rob a feral colony and bring back mites that > then drifted with bees to nearby hives? > b.. Did one or two hives miss the last treatment a year and a half > ago? > c.. Are the higher scoring hives facing east or west? I'll have to > check. Well, we had to put some Apistan into the high mite load hives today, since the follow-up lab work on samples taken after treatment with liquid oxalic in syrup showed considerably _higher_ mite loads than a month or so ago when they were treated (as part of an experiment). One thing we have now noticed is that the hives with high mite loads are all in polystyrene hives. On is in wood. The low infestation hives are all wood. Just guessing -- unless this is a fluke -- it looks as if the longer brood rearing that takes place in styro hives may favour varroa! Curiouser and curiouser. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:44:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Winter Feed In-Reply-To: <200411010500.iA14eEvU015547@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Stan wrote: "I also do not understand why a hardened sugar product makes excellent winter feed, when granulated honey or syrup does not." In regards to granulated sugar not being good winter feed, I have heard of beekeepers pouring granulated sugar on the inner covers of hives as a late winter feed. Evidently the moisture of the colony respiration travels up through the inner cover hole and liquifies the granulated sugar so that the bees have access to a syrup from the granulated sugar. The rest of you, am I wrong in this? Mike __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 22:48:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Propane Bee Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was looking around for alternative mite controls and stumbed across this gaget. It's a propane powered insect fogger. My thought is, how useful would this be with the tank full of liquid smoke? No fires to light, you can put it down with out setting the yard on fire. Both the fogger and liquid smoke are available at home depot. Check it out... http://store.yahoo.com/outdoordecor/burgess-bug-killer-fogger.html Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:01:54 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Sugar roll MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was at a club meeting this week end and it was mentioned that Vorroa mites will release if the bees are rolled in powered sugar in a jar, as one method of detecting/counting mites. But it was not feasable to "roll" a whole hive as a form of treatment. After the fact, I was wondering, has anyone ever brought the sugar to the bees, instead of the bees to the sugar? I imagine I could put up a cloud of sugar dust with a 4 oz or 16 oz bulb duster. I'd imagine that bees would have mixed feelings about it. Here's a picture of the bulb duster that I'm talking about. http://www.doyourownpestcontrol.com/bellows.jpg Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:55:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Granulated honey and granulated sugar as feed In-Reply-To: <200411010500.iA14eEvU015547@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sorry. It's late at night and I misread the note on granulated honey. Thought it said granulated sugar. Mike __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:26:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: No Treatment for a Year and Then Some... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Allen Dick mentioned " the longer brood rearing that takes place in styro hives..." Is this documented somewhere? I have a few styro hives. I've never heard the brood period is longer in styro and have never noticed it to be so. Then again, I've never examined or timed it either. If so, how much longer? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:52:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?US-ASCII?Q?Dieter_Schurer?= Subject: AW: [BEE-L] Sugar roll In-Reply-To: <13e.52ac7d6.2eb860b2@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi There is a good information on this on the internet: http://westsoundbees.org/beekeeping_articles_sugar.htm I have tested the method this fall and it worked but uses quite a bit of work. I then tried to put the powdered sugar on top of the combs through a sifter, whereby some sugar went between the combs also, which was appreciated. Then I took a small brush to wipe the sugar from the top bars between the combs. The bees were quite good dusted this way and many varroa dropped down. this was much faster then opening every comb and dusting it individually. My friend also used another technique when he had to shake the hive off its combs anyway to renew all combs (in Switzerland many beekeepers exchange the combs after 3 years at the lastest in order to have clean hives with no residues from treatments). He shook the hive into a big bucket then put the powdered sugar into it and closed the lid. then he shook the whole think and let it rest for approx. 3 minutes. Then he emptied the bucket onto a fine net where Varroa fell through and put the bees back into the new hive. Lots of varroa fell off like this. dieter schuerer, switzerland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:39:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: AW: [BEE-L] Sugar roll MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/2/2004 8:21:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, d.schuerer@CONFIDENTIA.COM writes: I have tested the method this fall and it worked but uses quite a bit of work. I then tried to put the powdered sugar on top of the combs through a Thanks for the info! I use the bulb duster I described daily. (I'm an exterminator) I was thinking that if the sugar worked, it would only take a few seconds to raise the cover and blow a sugar dust cloud in. I was wondering if any one tried it before I scrub the beneocarbs out of one of mine. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:55:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: "One thing we have now noticed is that the hives with high mite loads are all in polystyrene hives. On is in wood. The low infestation hives are all wood. Just guessing -- unless this is a fluke -- it looks as if the longer brood rearing that takes place in styro hives may favour varroa!" Reply: So again as discussed here off and on in the past I am sure.....................why wrap bees, etc, even up north....................when unlimited broodnest management with leaving ample stores of pollen and honey will thermoregulate and at same time give the bees pollen for brooding when conditions are right throughout the bees winter. Just how much does imbalance by man keep creating more and more problems to take note on? Comments..............................................? Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:20:14 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Increase in Indian Honey harvest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/11/2004 10:42:38 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: > Chris Slade mentioned a harvest average of 18 kg > > No I didn't. > > Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:10:55 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: No Treatment for a Year and Then Some... In-Reply-To: <000901c4c096$efc4b550$1db85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <000901c4c096$efc4b550$1db85ad1@Nemo>, allen dick writes >One thing we have now noticed is that the hives with high mite loads are all >in polystyrene hives. On is in wood. The low infestation hives are all >wood. > >Just guessing -- unless this is a fluke -- it looks as if the longer brood >rearing that takes place in styro hives may favour varroa! From what I can see Allen, there is something in this observation. Here we get the colonies carrying their strength much later into the season in these boxes than in the wooden ones, with a lot of brood still present in late August, where the wood ones had, to a large extent, closed down. However, the colonies we see are larger as well, and they produce more honey late season, so the bees in general do seem to favour these hives over the wood. The winter losses in them here are far lower than in the wooden ones, even allowing for the mites issue. I think I would still prefer a generation of young bees for winter over an early shut down, even if there is a cost in terms of increased varroa load. The spring development of a brood nest also seems to get underway a little slower in the polys for some reason, but catches up and overtakes very quickly. It does seem as if the bees have less temperature regulation to do in these boxes in the winter months so the 'ticking over' brood nest is not universal in them as it is in wood here after the shortest day. I suspect that the presence of significant amounts of brood late in the season, when the growth of the mite population is also at its steepest, gives rise to this effect. However, it does seem to be manageable, and at this time, even after a big varroa hit last year, the problem with polys is not keeping the colony numbers up, it is keeping the numbers down. I suspect from observation that the increased mite load given rise to by the extra breeding is not sufficiently large to accelerate collapse by any more than a few weeks in a 'don't treat and lets see what happens' situation over 3/4 year cycle from clean. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:43:14 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Record keeping and equalizing by commercial beekeepers. In-Reply-To: <008401c4bffc$58c473b0$b33a74d5@DellDesk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <008401c4bffc$58c473b0$b33a74d5@DellDesk>, Robin Dartington writes >Does Bob make HIVE NOTES on site and then make up TASK LISTS at home later? >Or is there a trick? (Like throwing coloured marbles in a bucket to count >extra supers needed, and just weighing the bucket later). Or perhaps every >apiary is treated as just one unit, with all hives being given the same >average treatment? The problem with any system of notes is that you are looking for something that is a tool to help you with your work, but often ends up becoming the master instead of the slave. The first time you end up not getting everything done because you needed to keep up the notes the system has fallen down. If you have to note colonies needing supers then you did not bring enough with you in the first place (seems a crass point, but we see small scale guys having to do this all the time) and so your aim every morning is to have everything you MIGHT need with you before the days run starts. Notes are rudimentary and consist of little more than number of colonies, location, last date of working, and some simple items about what happened last visit. One the hives themselves it is recorded about swarm control, queen status (usually a mark of the colour of marking which tells age, and then a mark such as VQ as requeening/splitting proceeds) and dates of critical manoeuvres ( S 6/6 means split 6th June when written on the parent hive, and 6/6 S means a split made on the 6th June and is written on the new colony. Doesn't need to get any more complicated than that.) Like Bob we use marker pens, in a rotating cycle of colours over a four year period, so any marks not in the current years colour are not valid. After four years all the old marks have faded away, and only in the case of black ones do you get them hanging around for more than a season. We also have a 'position of the current year' where queen colour is recorded (ie bottom centre, or top right) so no-one has to look around for where the valid queen age mark is to be found, and ALL colonies are marked in the same place that season. Special queen strains are also recorded on the box, but that is usually abbreviated down to a prominent single or double letter code and nothing else so I know what it means but casual visitors will not know the significance of a K or an S or an F or and SG, or whatever. These marks are made as part of working the colony before you open the next one, take just a couple of seconds, and you are done. Tool, not master. I think much record keeping is done (particularly at the amateur scale) for record keepings sake, and is of little practical value. What you REALLY need to know is remarkably brief, and can be accommodated in a very rudimentary system. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:47:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: No Treatment for a Year and Then Some... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> One thing we have now noticed is that the hives with high mite loads >> are all in polystyrene hives. One is in wood. The low infestation >> hives are all wood. Just guessing -- unless this is a fluke -- it looks >> as if the longer brood rearing that takes place in styro hives may >> favour varroa! > > From what I can see Allen, there is something in this observation... > However, the colonies we see are larger as well, and they produce more > honey late season, so the bees in general do seem to favour these > hives over the wood. The winter losses in them here are far lower > than in the wooden ones > I suspect from observation that the increased mite load given rise to > by the extra breeding is not sufficiently large to accelerate > collapse by any more than a few weeks in a 'don't treat and lets see > what happens' situation over 3/4 year cycle from clean. Our observations are somewhat accidental, a byproduct of an oxalic experiment. (FWIW, the drizzling of oxalic did not seem to work, possibly because it was done too early). >From the table at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/, it is clear that the styro hives are in serious danger of loss after about 18 months from the last Apistan(r) treatment, while the wooden hives (except one) show very low levels. The difference between the two hive types is very apparent. We did not treat the wooden hives (except one), but we did treat all the styro hives (except two), and then treated them again when the oxalic failed to control the mites. Even at that, I am quite sure we will lose some of the hives, particularly the one with 84% mite load. (That means that there are 84 mites for each 100 bees!) All this is not to say that styro hives are not superior. Our Winter survival is the same in wood (wrapped) and styro. Production seems about the same (not actually measured). We got as many or more Spring splits in styro, and there is less work, since there is no need for wrapping or unwrapping. My strong suspicion, based on a chance discovery that needs further proving, is that, given the same bees and location (one only so far), varroa may build to problem levels much more quickly in styro boxes and need controls sooner. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:29:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Candy boards and HFCS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in search of a supplier that sells candy boards. Is there such in the US? I have made my own in the past, but as my holdings of bees increases, my desire to make candy boards for all decreases. If need be, I will produce my own and I intend to enter the winter with candy boards in place on all hives. The bees did well this year, and were quite strong at the end of the season. Big appetites... and a lot of robbing in the bee yard. I am concerned about the quantity of stores that are now left. On a second note, I have been feeding HFCS this fall. This is the first time I have done it seriously - instead of sugar water - and I have been having a problem with it crystallizing quickly. I remove it, warm it and put it back on (in one gallon plastic buckets). It crystallizes again. Is there a solution to this problem? I considered diluting it, but would rather not for reason most Bee-L people would be familiar with. Thoughts on both these subjects would be appreciated. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:21:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: 2005 US National Beekeeping Conventions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit January is coming up fast, and it is time to start thinking about attending the ABF and AHPA meetings. Both organisations have good info on their web sites, and I've summarized them, and the contact info for reservations at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ and, until January, at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/USmeetings/ allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:17:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan & Jan Subject: Source of feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recently was informed of a feeder that is used inside the hive. It is = similar to a division board feeder but you remove 2 frames, insert the = feeder, re-insert the 2 frames and fill with feeder with syrup. Where can I get this type feeder?=20 Does anyone have experience with this type feeder? Thanks for any help Dan Veilleux The Boone area=20 In the Mountains of NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:59:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Winter Feed In-Reply-To: <20041102044401.14336.qmail@web53409.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mike wrote: I have heard of beekeepers pouring granulated sugar on the inner covers of hives as a late winter feed. I've done this for years, learned it from commercial beekeepers out in the eastern plains, where winter is downright frigid. We can't put liquid syrup on our hives -- it'd freeze. As to fondit/candy, syrup, granulated honey -- had an apiculture specialist from overseas visit a bunch of our commercial operations, some feed syrup, some feed back honey as needed in the spring. He argued that they were all doing it wrong, needed to be feeding fondit -- although how to mix, carry, place 10# blocks in thousands of hives seemed to have fallen out of the equation. I put this in the common sense category. Left to their own devices, honey bees HAVE to survive on honey stores. In Montana, where temperatures often drop to 20 degrees F and may hit minus 40+, by spring, any honey in any hive is by definition granulated. Obviously, they are able to re-liquify. There's lots of moisture in hives, it rains, snows and melts, etc. If its warm enough for them to move about, they'll take the dry sugar and store it in the cells in a liquid state -- sometimes surprisingly fast. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:02:39 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: No Treatment for a Year and Then Some... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "allen dick" "we did treat all the styro hives > (except two), and then treated them again when the oxalic failed to > control > the mites." Can we ask what treatment you were able to use as a back-up to oxalic, so late in the year? Also, James Hock has posted thoughts on sprinkling powder sugar down the seams and of dusting with powdered sugar using a bulb duster - you have bumped bees into a cardboard box and shaken them with sugar I remember - can you share comments on bulb dusting? Is that a possible late season treatment? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:24:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lesli St. Clair" Organization: Ithaca College Subject: Re: Record keeping and equalizing by commercial beekeepers. In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I think much record keeping is done (particularly at the amateur scale) > for record keepings sake, and is of little practical value. What you > REALLY need to know is remarkably brief, and can be accommodated in a > very rudimentary system. That may well be true. For a new beekeeper, more notes can be a good way of learning, though. And if you have a particular goal, and are of an experimental nature, keeping notes on what works and what doesn't is a good way to keep from repeating mistakes. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:28:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: 12th National Small farm Today Trade Show & Conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Short notice but I better post for four states surrounding Missouri beekeepers. . The conference was advertised in the Speedy Bee but only said honeybees were on the agenda. The conference is Thur. 4th., Friday 5th and Saturday 6th. call 1-800-633-2535 for questions and to register. I will be giving a beginning beekeeping class on Thursday at 12:15 pm. I will be showing around 85 slides. Art Gelder (beekeeper & past Missouri State Beekeepers pres.) will be helping with the presentation. For the first time you will be able to order a audio tape of the entire hour & fifteen minute presentation from the folks and Small Farm Today magazine for $10 plus shipping.(or any other seminar) Questions on complicated beekeeping issues will not be addressed during the seminar (due to being recorded ) as the seminar is for *beginning beekeepers*. I will address those questions for as long as it takes after the seminar at my booth. I enjoy the show as I live on a small farm and most the people attending are also people which live on small farms and are trying to survive as best they can by sharing ideas. I am usually always around the booth and glad to answer beekeeping questions. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Past pres. Midwestern Beekeepers Assn. Subscribe to both Bee Culture & the Amercian Bee Journal as I have got a couple of must read articles being published in coming months. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:35:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L: Source of feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dan Veilleux asked about > a feeder (where...) > you remove 2 frames, > insert the feeder, re-insert the 2 frames > and fill with feeder with syrup. Sounds like the Candibox feeder. http://www.candibox.com/ Bought a dozen, never used them. Anyone else? Aaron Morris - thinking there's more than one way to feed a bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:05:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: No Treatment for a Year and Then Some... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Can we ask what treatment you were able to use as a back-up to > oxalic, so late in the year? Apistan allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:20:36 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: No Treatment for a Year and Then Some... In-Reply-To: <000601c4c1ab$9ab88990$34b85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <000601c4c1ab$9ab88990$34b85ad1@Nemo>, allen dick writes >From the table at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/, it is clear that the >styro hives are in serious danger of loss after about 18 months from the >last Apistan(r) treatment, while the wooden hives (except one) show very low >levels. I would probably go along with that. Good spring treatment, then first collapses about the end of the second summer, so yes, about 18 months. My surprise is thus not at your findings with the polys, but with the wooden ones. We would have the first collapses at broadly the same time, end of the second season after treating. Deformed bees probably appearing in fewer numbers due to lower mite count, but still enough to impair the wintering. >My strong suspicion, based on a chance discovery that needs further proving, >is that, given the same bees and location (one only so far), varroa may >build to problem levels much more quickly in styro boxes and need controls >sooner. I would not say it should have the category of a 'suspicion'. I would say it is a fact. Any difference of opinion hinges on the word 'much' and just how big a much we are talking about. Murray -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:06:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: No Treatment for a Year and Then Some... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Can we ask what treatment you were able to use as a back-up to >> oxalic, so late in the year? > > Apistan I guess that I should add that we could have used the oxalic evaporation method, since the time is getting about right for that, but I only have a few hives to treat, and the researcher doing the work brought along Apistan, so that is what we used. I would have had to round up an evaporator and some oxalic. Not hard to do, I suppose, but I just went with the flow... allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:59:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Candy boards and HFCS In-Reply-To: <002b01c4c1b1$802d2170$2f5b70d1@Tom> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-56AC5952; boundary="=======44666077=======" --=======44666077======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-56AC5952; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I have been feeding HFCS this fall. and I have been >having a problem with it crystallizing quickly. >Larry Krengel First, are you using 55%? Are you placing your feeders above the inner cover, or directly on the frames? Are the holes in the feeder large enough for the bees to take down the syrup quickly? Mike --=======44666077=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:23:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Winter Feed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good morning, again. There's one caveat about feeding honey versus man-made foodstocks. If you get honey from diseased hives (e.g., foul brood), you may spread it like wildfire. Reason U.S. packages of bees are shipped on syrup, not honey. I'm comfortable feeding my colonies their own honey -- but I wouldn't go to the grocery and buy honey to feed. Odds are, it would be fine, but if you don't know the source, you take your chances. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:01:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: Source of feeders In-Reply-To: <200411040508.iA44oiDH018425@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 11/4/2004 -0500, you wrote: >I recently was informed of a feeder that is used inside the hive. It is = >similar to a division board feeder but you remove 2 frames, insert the = >feeder, re-insert the 2 frames and fill with feeder with syrup. >Where can I get this type feeder?=20 >Does anyone have experience with this type feeder? it's at www.candibox.com and I contacted the company and they're sending me a couple for trial and review in the ISBA Journal. They're not similar to a division board in that they don't hang but actually sit on the bottom board and hold two deep frames. The frames, empty comb act as ladders, I suppose, so the bees don't drown. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:15:14 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Source of feeders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Neat idea and a great price but I see a couple of drawbacks. The site suggests placing this feeder on one side in the lower deeps. This means you have to lift the heavier top deep for access. Also, bees may not leave the cluster to go down to the feeder there in cold weather. I think it would be better to place this kind of feeder in the upper deep on top of the frames in the lower deep. In my opinion, nothing beats a top feeder for speed of operation, minimal disturbance to the bees, and providing the warmest possible pathway for the bees to the feed. Regards, Waldemar LI, NY >>it's at www.candibox.com and I contacted the company and they're sending me a couple for trial and review in the ISBA Journal. They're not similar to a division board in that they don't hang but actually sit on the bottom board and hold two deep frames. The frames, empty comb act as ladders, I suppose, so the bees don't drown. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:04:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: frame feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob said "it's at www.candibox.com and I contacted the company and they're sending me a couple for trial and review in the ISBA Journal. They're not similar to a division board in that they don't hang but actually sit on the bottom board and hold two deep frames." I think these have been available for about a year. My question has always been...why would anyone buy them instead of the frame feeder made and sold by Brushy Mountain? I own 50 of these and they are great! No drowning, only take the place of one frame, and hold just short of 3 quarts. They are $4.85 each, compared to $6 for the candibox feeder. Now, the candibox feeder claims to take the space of 2 frames, hold 2 frames AND 2 gallons of feed. I flatly don't believe it! All the black plastic frame feeders out there claim to take the space of 1 frame...and require the space of 2 frames! (I've tried every one of them.) They hold +- one gallon. Either the candibox feeder takes the place of 3 (or more) frames, or can only take 1 frame with drawn comb. Moreover, even if they take the place of 3 frames it is physically impossible for them to hold 2 gallons of feed plus two drawn frames! Buyer beware! And why don't more people buy the great division board feeder made by Brushy Mountain? Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:23:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: Candy boards and HFCS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know for sure what percentage of fructose I bought. It came from a bee supply company that contended they use it with their bees. It seemed a good bet and it was available to me in buckets instead of 55 gallon drums that I would rather not handle. I place the syrup in a gallon bucked over the inner cover, not on top of the frames. It would seem to create a chill problem if I placed it on the frames. ?? The bucked has a one inch hole with a screen. Perhaps I could add additional holes. It really does crystallize fast. Perhaps the sign of less fructose. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL > > > I have been feeding HFCS this fall. and I have been > >having a problem with it crystallizing quickly. > > > First, are you using 55%? Are you placing your feeders above the inner > cover, or directly on the frames? Are the holes in the feeder large enough > for the bees to take down the syrup quickly? > > Mike > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:29:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: frame feeders In-Reply-To: <003001c4c288$071676b0$b2e9d518@newdell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:04 AM 11/4/2004, you wrote: >I think these have been available for about a year. My question has always >been...why would anyone buy them instead of the frame feeder made and sold >by Brushy Mountain? I'd expect because they are cheaper and hold more syrup. They are $3.75 in small quantities, ($6 includes shipping). And everyone has their own idea of what is best. What really surprises me is that everyone still seems to carry front entrance feeders and includes them in every beginners outfit I've seen. >Now, the candibox feeder claims to take the space of 2 frames, hold 2 frames >AND 2 gallons of feed. I flatly don't believe it! I'd guess it's a bit high, but not too far off. The space available for 2 frames is approximately 2.95"x18.375"x9" which yields 2.11 gallons. Subtracting the frame with undrawn foundation I get about 1.8 Gal, so 1.5 might be a fair guess for drawn comb. -Tim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:45:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Frank Wyatt Subject: Re: Candy boards and HFCS In my experience the higher the solids content the faster that fructose will granulate. Corn Products explained to me that #55 fructose is 67% solids and unless you can keep the product at a temp above 100 F that you run the risk of granulation. They told me to add 10% water to the #55 and this would help to eliminate this problem and not reduce the solids content below 50%. #45 fructose does not have the solids that #55 does and will ferment sometimes before the bees can use it. Frank Wyatt WG Bee Eden, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:30:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? >why wrap bees, etc, even up north....................>Just how much does imbalance by man keep creating more and more problems to >take note on? > >Comments..............................................? Would you leave your hives in their beeyards unprotected from the harsh elements of old man Canadian winter? I didnt think so, we have all developed our own way of hive winter management to achieve our winter survival goals. I dont know a single beekeeper up here ( southern Manitoba) who does not prepare their hives in some sort of a fashion before winter. wrapping thier hives, type of wrapping, types of insulation, taking hives indoors, different wrap and insulation combinations ect.... Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:30:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Candy boards and HFCS In-Reply-To: <00e601c4c28a$96751f30$315b70d1@Tom> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2C8F3BD2; boundary="=======4A8F6B09=======" --=======4A8F6B09======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2C8F3BD2; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >I don't know for sure what percentage of fructose I bought. Both will crystallize, but 42 will crystallize so fast that the bees can't get it out of the feeders. > I place the syrup in a gallon bucked over >the inner cover, not on top of the frames. It would seem to create a chill >problem if I placed it on the frames. ?? No chilling. Place the bucket on the frames resting on shims to keep the bucket a bee space off the combs. Place an empty hive body around the bucket, and covers on top. The bees will cluster around the feeder and warm the syrup. You did place a hive body around the bucket, and didn't just have the bucket exposed to the elements? I know someone who did this, and the bees wouldn't break cluster to go up and get it...and the syrup crystallized. >The bucked has a one inch hole with a screen. Perhaps I could add >additional holes. I never liked these feeder buckets with the screen feeder hole. I don't think bees can take the syrup fast enough through it. When I bought my bees from the orchard, they had many such buckets. I had to punch holes in the screen so the bees could take the syrup...also, the bees propolize the screens closed. I like to use new gallon paint cans. I punch 4 holes with the corner of my hive tool, about a half inch long. The bees can empty up to 5 gallons in 3 or 4 days...way quicker than it will ever crystallize. Mike --=======4A8F6B09=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:09:39 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Candy boards and HFCS In-Reply-To: <200411042045.iA4Bqn1J027633@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <200411042045.iA4Bqn1J027633@listserv.albany.edu>, Frank Wyatt writes >They told me to add 10% water to the #55 and this would help >to eliminate this problem and not reduce the solids content below 50%. >#45 fructose does not have the solids that #55 does and will ferment >sometimes before the bees can use it. I am doing a lot of research on this subject at the moment in order to have a successful non crystallising product for bee feeding available from UK sources rather than imported material. My understanding is that the number in these HFCS products refers to the percentage of fructose (out of 100) in the dry weight of sugars in the product. The 42 or 45 ones therefore have more than 50% glucose, which is much more prone to crystallise than fructose. Thus, the higher the fructose, the lower the tendency to crystallise. European feeds tend to be a blend of these products (or similar derived from sugar) and sucrose syrup itself. They are supplied at 72% solids and do not crystallise to any serious extent. In addition, any of these solutions above 63% solids (as a rule these feeds are supplied in the 69 to 72% solids range) are biologically stable and will not ferment provided no extra water gets in. In many lines of business (such as jam making) a figure somewhere a little above 63% (say 67%) is targeted to keep the product in good condition. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:27:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <200411050130.iA4NK4XO028645@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian wrote: >>why wrap bees, etc, even up north....................>Just how much does > > imbalance by man keep creating more and more problems to > >>take note on? > Would you leave your hives in their beeyards unprotected from the harsh > elements of old man Canadian winter? > I didnt think so, With extremely cold winters, when the average temp is below 28F, wrapping or some kind of insulation is definitely beneficial and could be essential for winter survival. In the area around freezing, you can go either way and above that, wrapping is less beneficial than leaving the colony unwrapped. From Hive and Honey Bee. This is covered often about this time of year, so lots in the archives. The problems arise from proponents on both sides who fare well on the same latitude, but actually have very different winters. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:59:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lesli St. Clair" Organization: Ithaca College Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <418B7FD6.8030800@suscom-maine.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bill Truesdell wrote: > With extremely cold winters, when the average temp is below 28F, > wrapping or some kind of insulation is definitely beneficial and could > be essential for winter survival. Here in Upstate NY, the last two winters have been bitter. Houses, including mine, that never had problems before are dealing with frozen pipes and so on. No doubt my bees can survive this (ferals in this area do survive bad winters, after all), but a black wrap may give them a few more degrees of warmth. Is it strictly natural? No. But in nature, my bees would be in a hollow tree, likely with a few inches of wood for insulation, and in the middle of a forest with even less wind exposure. This seems to be a good balance between "natural" and "responsible." :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:01:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <200411051601.iA5CJgOg021246@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday 05 November 2004 10:59 am, Lesli St. Clair wrote: > Bill Truesdell wrote: > > With extremely cold winters, when the average temp is below 28F, > > wrapping or some kind of insulation is definitely beneficial and could > > be essential for winter survival. No its really different in a tree. A tree is a harsher place to live than our beehives. Tree trunks don't protect the bees as well from the elements. THe structure of our beehives in many ways provides better shelter. The geometry alone allows are bees to cluster tigher being more energy efficient. Our hives ventilate better and the beekeeper can manage ventilation. Wrapping hives is like putting the bees in the dark. When we wrap our beehives we are preventing the sun from shining directly on them. Sure it may help insulate radiant heat, but that goes both ways. Preventing them from having a few hours of thermal relief. Bees can survive REALLY COLD weather, so long as they don't have to endure the cold for so long. When you find bees that died in cluster from starvation with plentiful stores at the edge of the cluster, you can bet its because they couldn't get warm during the day. I believe the bees need this thermal relief so they can adjust the cluster to what's needed for the next evening(s). It also saves on winter stores if they don't have to consume as much to stay warm for while. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:07:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <200411051601.iA5CJgOg021246@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I forgot to mention. Keith malone has been pioneering over-wintering in alaska. He's developing sustainable beekeeping practices and breeding from the hives that make it through winter. I know he is having success and is very serious about his work. If I recall correctly, he said he does not recommend wrapping and that hives that were ventilated (especially top ventilated) more than not did best. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:21:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill is right. This subject comes up about every winter and is in the archives. What I find amusing is some of you folks in the *south* telling beekeepers in the *north* they don’t need to wrap. For those of you who like reading studies, a paper in 1971 from the USDA came out titled “The Thermology of Wintering Honey Bee Colonies”. It can be read on some beeekeping sites. Here’s one: http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm >“........over-wintering in alaska....does not recommend wrapping....” Most people in Alaska who do overwinter or attempt to do wrap their hives. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:52:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <200411051724.iA5ET93f024503@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm > > >“........over-wintering in alaska....does not recommend wrapping....” > > Most people in Alaska who do overwinter or attempt to do wrap their hives. > > Regards, > Dick Allen The USDA recommends a lot of things. The USDA grants money to farmers to keep the US and international commodities markets stable. The market is kept stable by buying a farmers "extra" crop and throwing it out, as if there WERE such a thing as extra food in a global market. Ever thought that maybe bee breeding has become successful enough business that many businessmen might want that business to continue? -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:04:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <200411051207.05955.scot@linuxfromscratch.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: > Keith malone (snip) > is having success and is very serious about his > work. If I recall correctly, he said he does not recommend wrapping and that > hives that were ventilated (especially top ventilated) more than not did > best. You can go fairly far north and keep bees. When I was new on this list someone from Sweden posted and I learned his climate was actually milder than Maine! Alaska also runs the gambit from fairly mild (compared to locations further south) to extremely cold. So even latitude can be misleading. In Maine, there are some who wrap and one I know who does has exceptional overwintering results. He is also an exceptional beekeeper. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:43:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lesli St. Clair" Organization: Ithaca College Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <200411051201.47874.scot@linuxfromscratch.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Scot Mc Pherson wrote: >No its really different in a tree. A tree is a harsher place to live than our >beehives. > I've never seen or done a study, so I won't try to dispute that. >Wrapping hives is like putting the bees in the dark. When we wrap our beehives >we are preventing the sun from shining directly on them. > I don't understand this. The sun doesn't shine on the bees themselves, anyway. >Sure it may help >insulate radiant heat, but that goes both ways. Preventing them from having a >few hours of thermal relief. Bees can survive REALLY COLD weather, so long as >they don't have to endure the cold for so long. When you find bees that died >in cluster from starvation with plentiful stores at the edge of the cluster, >you can bet its because they couldn't get warm during the day. I believe the >bees need this thermal relief so they can adjust the cluster to what's needed >for the next evening(s). It also saves on winter stores if they don't have to >consume as much to stay warm for while. > I don't understand how wrapping, which would in theory, increase the temperature, prevent them from getting "warm during the day." Just the opposite, since the black wrap would increase temps a bit. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "thermal relief." As for ventilation etc, the two aren't mutually exclusive. The wrap goes around the two hive bodies, but doesn't close ventilation at the top or the bottom. And in my case, they have screened bottom boards. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:32:10 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick, Scott, & All, Scott M. wrote in part; > Keith malone has been pioneering over-wintering in alaska. > There are others also working on this challenging task. Scott continues; > He's developing > sustainable beekeeping practices and breeding from the hives that make it > through winter. I will not claim complete success just yet. > I know he is having success and is very serious about his > work. I think I am having success possibly in finding the hardy genetics I need for breeding a hardy better bee for South-Central Alaska where I keep bees in part by not wrapping hive bodies. > If I recall correctly, he said he does not recommend wrapping and that > hives that were ventilated (especially top ventilated) more than not did > best. > My recommendation for those wintering up here in South-Central is to wrap lightly with such wrappings as tar paper, Reflectix, the "hive wrap insulation" found at Betterbee that I have seen winter colonies very well the same as I have seen Reflectix do. You can see the "hive wrap insulation" at this URL; http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=528 , and Reflectix at this URL; http://www.reflectixinc.com/ Reflectix can be purchased from many hardware stores for the purpose of insulating pipes and ducts as well as walls. I have not used ventilated bottom boards but I do recommend a lot of ventilation, do not be afraid to open the bottom up and have a good slot in the inner cover. I would think if using a ventilated bottom board that a top vent would not be necessary. What ever as long as air can come in and out freely. Now Dick A. wrote in part; > What I find amusing is > some of you folks in the *south* telling beekeepers in the *north* they don't need to wrap. > I have not recommended to those wintering in the interior not wrap but maybe to wrap lightly if inside wintering or heavy wrap were used unsuccessfully. Some strains if wrapped heavy or kept to warm can eat them selves out of house and home through a long winter. At any rate I think genetics needs to be developed. > For those of you who like reading studies, a paper in 1971 from the USDA came out titled "The > Thermology of Wintering Honey Bee Colonies". It can be read on some beeekeping sites. Here's > one: > > http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm An excellent study demonstrating in part how a colony cluster does not try to heat the interior of a hive but merely tries to maintain heat in the cluster. > > >"........over-wintering in alaska....does not recommend wrapping...." > > Most people in Alaska who do overwinter or attempt to do wrap their hives. > One reason at present that I am not wrapping hives is because wrapping can enable a colony that has boarder line or weak wintering genetics to winter through and in turn pollute a gene pool. Now there is more to wintering a colony than just wrapping or insulating it. Here are some thoughts of mine I think will help wintering in local areas. Strain of bees used, use a strain best suited for your local. If you have true feral bee survivors I think it best to use them instead of importing. Timing for feeding if you do feed. Leave the clusters sanctuary intact and arranged as the bees arranged it or arrange it as the bees would have when combining colonies. Bees need fresh air and a way to exhaust old air, do not choke the cluster thinking you need to retain heat for them. The cluster will maintain the clusters heat not the interior heat of the hive. I would think that no matter where you keep bees that top insulation would be beneficial for keeping the top cool in summer and keeping the inside top warm and dry in the winter. For where I keep bees I feel that top insulation is mandatory. Breed from the best colonies you have to improve wintering and acclimatizing genetics. I think insecticides have absolutely no place going into a hive where honey bees are kept, this in it self should enable better wintering in the future by helping the bees to keep their memory intact and organize more efficiently. If unsuccessful wintering, keep trying. Try new things or come up with ideas on your own you think might help. Keep searching for answers from others that are successful. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:03:46 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <200411051721.iA5ET93R024503@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT To insulate or not, that is the question . . . >Most people in Alaska who do overwinter or attempt to do wrap their hives. > I don't think there are beekeepers who are not aware of the ability of the honeybee to keep warm in extreme cold temperatures. Lots of experience, and studies, have shown this. But, the caveat is "as long as honey is available to the cluster." When your ambient temperature is below freezing for months at a time, and the sun is below the trees for months at a time, it makes sense to provide a little help. It has to be warm enough as the outside temperature rises to allow food to be moved to the cluster, or for the cluster to move. No matter how adapted your bees are, if they run out of honey and can get no more, they will die. Period. Here in Alaska, in my long experience with only a few hives, bees will move to the top of the hive when brood rearing ends in the fall. They will not move down again and will starve with a full box of honey immediately below them. This will not surprise anyone, I am sure. In my insulated colonies bees do not form a cluster at outdoor temperature of 10 degrees F. I will continue to insulate. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:29:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan & Jan Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To wrap or not to wrap? It is my understanding that the main differences come down to climate. If you wrap/insulate, the cluster may break due to warmer hive temperatures which may allow the bees to get to stores easier. This may allow better survival in extremely cold climates where bees may starve next to stores. However, they will consume more stores. On the other hand, unwrapped hives will heat up and cool faster during the day, again allowing the bees to get to the stores. The unwrapped hives will maintain a more tight cluster consuming less honey. To wrap or not to wrap. I have kept bees in Minnesota, Ohio and NC. I always have maintained good ventilation along with some amount of entrance and top openings and protection from the wind. My losses always have been from mites, at first tracheal and later varroa. Just another view from a hobby beekeeper Dan Veilleux Boone area In the Mountains of NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:28:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? >Wrapping hives is like putting the bees in the dark. When we wrap our beehives >we are preventing the sun from shining directly on them. Sure it may help >insulate radiant heat, but that goes both ways. Preventing them from having a >few hours of thermal relief. We are wrapping little heat generators, the insulation conserves the heat loss. So, on a warmer day, less heat is lost and the colony maintains thier cluster temperature with less effort. Perhaps if the colonies were dead, the empty hive body would stay cooler during temperature increases. Sort of like a cooler effect. Last winter we endured 2 solid weeks below 30 degreesC. And 2 weeks on either side were below 25 degreesC.(AS DAY TIME HIGHS) The wrap and the snow cover settled my nerves a bit... Almost send a beekeeper to wintering indoors, Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:33:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Hive top feeder pail screen cleaning This year I have had a lot of my screens propolised up. In the past I have cleaned them out with a pressure washer, but it tends to be hard on the screens. Tips anyone? Thanks Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:25:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Hive top feeder pail screen cleaning In-Reply-To: <200411060033.iA5MmhF6021246@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6CC44ED7; boundary="=======614512B8=======" --=======614512B8======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6CC44ED7; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >This year I have had a lot of my screens propolised up. Tips anyone? > Ian Punch holes in the screens with your hive tool. Mike --=======614512B8=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:43:31 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <200411060030.iA5MmhEo021246@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ian, >Last winter we endured 2 solid weeks below 30 degreesC. And 2 weeks on >either side were below 25 degreesC.(AS DAY TIME HIGHS) The wrap and the >snow cover settled my nerves a bit... Almost send a beekeeper to wintering >indoors, > 25 & 30 degrees C? I wish we had summer temps like that every year. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:59:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: frame feeders In-Reply-To: <200411050504.iA53nJgK006668@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 11/5/2004 -0500, you wrote: >I think these have been available for about a year. My question has always >been...why would anyone buy them instead of the frame feeder made and sold >by Brushy Mountain? I own 50 of these and they are great! No drowning, >only take the place of one frame, and hold just short of 3 quarts. They are >$4.85 each, compared to $6 for the candibox feeder. > >Now, the candibox feeder claims to take the space of 2 frames, hold 2 frames >AND 2 gallons of feed. I flatly don't believe it! Well, they arrived, but I don;t know exactly when I'll have time to put them in. The plastic is thinner walled than division board feeders. I can't speak to the Brushy Mountain ones (although I'd love to compare and report on both). Right now, I'm pondering in what shape the frame will be in after soaking for several months. Will the feed crystalize and lock in the frames? How much will the feeder hold? Will it take two frames width or more. My answers are... I don't know yet, although it's pretty thin walled and much more so than division feeders. It may not take up more than two. I figure there's room for 10 1/3 frames in my brood boxes. That is a 1/3 width I have to play with. I'll remember to measure capacity, and see what happens. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:19:54 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Hive top feeder pail screen cleaning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Ian" asked: > This year I have had a lot of my screens propolised up. In the past I have > cleaned them out with a pressure washer, but it tends to be hard on the > screens. Tips anyone? Soak in a strong solution of washing soda.(not caustic soda). Propolis dissolves. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:59:52 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Record keeping and equalizing by commercial beekeepers. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Murray McGregor" " I think much record keeping is done (particularly at the amateur scale) > for record keepings sake, and is of little practical value" I have found the comments from Bob and Murray very illuminating. My problem I now see was trying to combine keeping a running record on the state of the colony (clearly best written on the hive itself) with noting the development of the colony for analysis later, as a learning aid. Next year - famous phrase :) - I will keep a square of hardboard inside every hive roof to keep a scrawled running record - and select just one or two colonies for full observation, noted in a notebook. Thanks to both. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:02:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Hive top feeder pail screen cleaning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter and all, Peter said to soak screens in a strong solution of washing soda and propolis would dissolve. Others have said that washing soda would remove propolis from the floor. I tried this and nothing happened. Alcohol will dissolve propolis on the floor. There will be the odor for a while. I used Arm and Hammer brand washing soda. Peter, what kind do you use? What percent active ingredients are in your brand? I tried just making a paste, still nothing. Lionel ------------------------------------------------- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by PCLNET, and is believed to be clean. Visit www.pclnet.net and get a 3Mbps cable modem! ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:46:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: Re: Hive top feeder pail screen cleaning MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Freeze them in a large chest freezer if you can. Most of the propolis comes off like frozen candy. > This year I have had a lot of my screens propolised up. In the past I > have > cleaned them out with a pressure washer, but it tends to be hard on the > screens. Tips anyone? > Thanks :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:36:45 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Hive top feeder pail screen cleaning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lionel > Others have said that washing soda would remove > propolis from the floor. I tried this and nothing happened. > I used Arm and Hammer brand washing soda In UK Arm and Hammer brand is famous for producs containing Sodium Bi-carbonate. Which we call baking soda, Washing soda is Sodium Carbonate Here is a website that discusses the difference... http://www.cutofcloth.com/article_bakingsoda.asp Sodium Carbonate will shift propolis and Sodium Hydroxide will also shift it. In Uk we call Sodium Hydroxide... Caustic Soda, which I think is called Lye in US. Regards & Best 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Temporary Conditions... Using 'PATCHY' VPN pass-through server 2nd build :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 13:38:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Hive top feeder pail screen cleaning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Arm and Hammer washing soda, not baking soda is=20 what I was using. Lionel ------------------------------------------------- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by PCLNET, and is believed to be clean. Visit www.pclnet.net and get a 3Mbps cable modem! ------------------------------------------------- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 13:51:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <200411060050.iA5MmhGa021246@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We are wrapping little heat generators, the insulation conserves the heat > loss. So, on a warmer day, less heat is lost and the colony maintains > thier cluster temperature with less effort. I am not talking about warmer days, I am talking COLD days when the sun shines. The sun shines directly on the hives and the heat travels through the wood and keeps the interior warm for a few hours for every day the sun shines. When you wrap the hives you are putting the the hives in the dark. Warm spells occur a LOT LESS frequently and less regularly. Bees can endure serious cold so long as its not very prolonged. When you wrap the hives, you are preventing the sun from shining on the hive bodies. Preventing the almost daily relief from frigid stress. > Perhaps if the colonies were dead, the empty hive body would stay cooler > during temperature increases. Sort of like a cooler effect. > Last winter we endured 2 solid weeks below 30 degreesC. A cooler is a poor example. A cooler isn't ventilated, it is sealed. But using your example, what you are creating is a situation where your bees must continue to work to stay warm. Given the sunshine on their hives, the bees have the chance to take a break from being heaters. > And 2 weeks on > either side were below 25 degreesC.(AS DAY TIME HIGHS) The wrap and the > snow cover settled my nerves a bit... Almost send a beekeeper to wintering > indoors, Snow is a good insulator. So long as the hives are top ventilated and above the snow, the snow provides a windbreak, BUT importantly it does not stop the sun. The sun continues to shine on the hive bodies through the snow. Further the snow diffuses the light, so the sun isn't just shining directly on one side, but more evenly and with greater effect around the whole hive through the whole day. Snow is great, wrapping is not. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:52:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Snow is great, wrapping is not. LOL. Nice troll! Those of us who have lived in the North all our lives and have been practical beekeepers all our lives are getting another rather hypothetical lecture from way down South. You guys are killing me. This is soooo rich that I'll bite one more time. I don't know about down South, but up here snow comes and snow goes. Some years on the Prairies, we have only an inch or two on the ground most of the Winter, even when it is minus forty and the wind blows for days. So we have to devise our own 'snow'. It is called 'wrapping'. After decades of wintering thousands of hives using every conceivable method and taking the losses when we tried dumb things, and after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on countless private and government studies, I think we have a slight clue at least about what works -- and what does not. Moreover, we are not dumb; when it comes to spending money, we're cheap! Sooooo, if there was any chance we did not need wraps, we would not buy them at great expense, and then go through the bother of putting them on and off -- and storing them. "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; In practice, there is" -- Chuck Reid. Thanks, Chuck. BTW -- FWI -- I appreciated Keith's post about his thoughts on wintering. He made some good points about wrapping and top insulation and survival. He is experimenting and is prepared to lose some of the weak hives. Those of us who make our living from our bees can't take a chance, though and we need to get every colony through that we can, and every hive as strong as possible. I think we can respect that. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:51:08 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Hive top feeder pail screen cleaning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Lionel" asked for more details on washing soda: I use 'Dripak' washing soda which is simply sodium carbonate decahydrate. Dissolve 1kg in 5 litres warm water and add a good squeeze of washing up liquid. When I am working bees I use this to clean hives tools, smoker, rubber gloves etc. see: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/May2002.htm Wax and propolis dissolve very quickly. I also put porter escapes, queen cages and anything else that needs cleaning into the solution and all wax and propolis are removed like magic - even used it to get wax off a shirt when I splashed molten wax on it. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 22:43:45 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Hive top feeder pail screen cleaning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Lionel" wrote: Arm and Hammer washing soda, not baking soda is what I was using. What does it say that it contains? What strength solution did you use? Did you let it soak? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:16:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Hive top feeder pail screen cleaning In-Reply-To: <00f001c4c427$465ec0c0$0a00000a@patchy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: > In UK Arm and Hammer brand is famous for producs containing Sodium > Bi-carbonate. Which we call baking soda, Washing soda is Sodium Carbonate A&H makes baking soda which is Sodium Bicarbonate and also makes Washing Soda which is Sodium Carbonate. Call it that on this side of the puddle too. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 16:38:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Bear Problems? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www3.gov.ab.ca/srd/fw/bears/problem.html allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ also US meeting dates & info: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/USmeetings/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 18:10:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Scott: The principle of K.I.S.S. is one I’m generally in complete agreement on. But, wasn’t it Einstein who said something similar to: “Things should be as simple as possible, but not simpler”? It’s a bit more complicated in *cold* regions than you realize. >”.....sun shines directly on the hives.....keeps the interior warm for a few hours for every day the sun shines. Not by very much when it’s colder than hell. Honest. >When you wrap the hives, you are preventing the sun from shining on the hive bodies. Preventing the almost daily relief from frigid stress. I’ve read and have been told that alternating warm and cold is more stressful for bees than constant temperatures. Besides, that’s really a moot point for winter in the *Far North*. (see the previous statement) About a year ago, solar gain in northern regions was talked about here. Why not read this first: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0312B&L=bee-l&P=R3824&m=45428 Do you live in Florida, or am I mistaken? :) Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:01:17 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ian & All, > Sort of like a cooler effect. > Last winter we endured 2 solid weeks below 30 degreesC. And 2 weeks on > either side were below 25 degreesC.(AS DAY TIME HIGHS) > Minus 22 to minus 13 Fahrenheit is really not that cold, so what was your NIGHT TIME LOWS? This is what you could be concerned about. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:40:33 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & All, > BTW -- FWI -- I appreciated Keith's post about his thoughts on wintering. > He made some good points about wrapping and top insulation and survival. He > is experimenting and is prepared to lose some of the weak hives. Those of > us who make our living from our bees can't take a chance, though and we need > to get every colony through that we can, and every hive as strong as > possible. > > I think we can respect that. > Yes Allen, I do respect your commercial perspective, that is why I am doing what I am doing. I am attempting to improve the genetics and the survivability in conjunction. I figure if wintering genetics can be improved then the progeny will surely do as good or maybe better wrapped. I never tell people to not wrap unless they are trying to do as me or wish to help me up here in improving the genetic pool. If I succeed in what I am doing then commercial beekeepers up here in the future will benefit in using the developed genetics. As it is presently large beekeeping outfits replenish either deadouts or start fresh each spring, and hardly any are trying to improve genetics but import instead. In the long run I hope to improve the commercial perspective up here for me and others. If I were a honey bee the perspective is down right dismal up here at present, and the further north you go the worse it gets, even with wrap. :~) . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 21:16:25 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Solar Heat in Winter on Hives*? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick & All, > About a year ago, solar gain in northern regions was talked about here. Why not read this first: > > http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0312B&L=bee-l&P=R3824&m=45428 > Quote from Dick A. in the article of the above URL; "In winter here in the south-central region of Alaska our sky is largely overcast. The insulating cloud layer sometimes helps to give us a bit milder range of temperatures than other northern areas. On those days when the sun is shining brightly, and the sky has cleared losing it's cloud blanket, outside air temperatures frequently drop a great deal. I doubt the fall in outside air temperature would likely be compensated for by the brief period that sunshine is striking the front of a beekeeper's hive." This is largely true up here in December and January but, from February on, conditions improve dramatically by the week. Mid February the suns radiant heat can heat the hive walls a lot and melt snow around the hives. This happens at the time of year when the interior conditions need it the most where it allows the bees to break cluster and reach stores that may or may not be out of reach. If the bees have made it to February the suns help on the hive and the interior heat will in my opinion help matters a lot. I think Scott is making some good points if thought about in the bees perspective. If I were a bee, I think I would appreciate the radiant heat of the sun, even in Alaska. A beekeeper should be conscious of where they place hives so it can benefit from even the winter sun. In February and March every ten days that goes by means the sun is up another hour longer, in this two month period the day light increases six hours. By mid March day light is over twelve hours a day and increasing more by the day. Usually by the end of March the bees are flying stretching there wings to say. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 03:59:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: Sugar roll MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've received several e-mail off BEE-L about sugar rolls and using 10x powdered sugar as an alternate vorroa mite treatment. Thank you, everyone, for the information. But I think my point was lost, I'll try to further explain what I'm driving at. When I am treating a nest of yellowjackets, Hornets or Wasps with a dust pesticide, the method involved is to use as little pesticide as possible, to cover as many insects and as much brood as possible with as little material as possible. To dump a pile of dust inside the nest opening is ineffective and a waste as the insects will go to lengths to work around it and not get any on themselves. IMO, dumping 1/2 pound of 10x powdered sugar on the top bar would be a wasted effort and a waste of material. It seems to me that little sugar would get on the backs of the bees where it will do some good, most will just get damp from the humidity, clump up and be useless as a treatment. The piles of sugar would just be consumed by the bees, as they work from the edges of the piles in, without much getting on them. The point I was driving at was the method of treatment, which I will try myself this year. If I want to treat bees with powdered sugar, I would want to use as little as possible and apply it as quickly and easily as I could. The object is to cover the bees to make the mites release. I do this I would apply it with very little sugar and a whole lot of air to spread it around. For a few hives, a simply bulb duster should work fine, a couple of puffs of the bottom board, a few heavy puffs under the inner cover. The bees leaving the hive should be white from the sugar. For several to hundreds of hives (or thousands) there are larger dusters and power dusters available that would better suited to the job. While dusting with sugar will not be a cure for the problem, if what everyone sent me is accurate, it seems dusting could certainly buy some time between treatments. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 07:09:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <004301c4c44a$f82b7c80$44b85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: >> Snow is great, wrapping is not. > LOL. Nice troll! > > Those of us who have lived in the North all our lives and have been > practical beekeepers all our lives are getting another rather hypothetical > lecture from way down South. > BTW -- FWI -- I appreciated Keith's post about his thoughts on wintering. > He made some good points about wrapping and top insulation and > survival. He > is experimenting and is prepared to lose some of the weak hives. We hobby beekeepers tend to reinvent the wheel and often it is square, oblong or anything but round. Occasionally we do get it right and beekeeping benefits, but that is the exception, not the rule. One danger is we tell others of our success without a complete knowledge of what is really taking place. Others might take it as gospel and proceed down that path to eventual losses and an exit from keeping bees. I have seen this repeated too often in my beekeeping experience, which is only 14 years, but in beekeeping that makes me a grizzled vet. I appreciate Keith's work. He and I disagree mainly about the use of controls for Varroa, but agree about most everything else. He is on the side of the angels. I appreciate Allen's correct assessment of the very misleading post on wrapping. There were so many errors in in I gave up, but knew there would be a response and Allen's was succinct. The major factors in overwintering have always been a good queen, enough good (emphasis on good) stores, and health of the bees. Without those three, it matters little if you wrap or don't wrap. Most winter failures are directly tied to them, but we often tie it to something else. Not many of us hobby beekeepers are experts in doing the proper detective work in identifying the reason for winter kill, and I count myself in that group. I was able to ID about 3/4 of the reasons for hive failure from frames brought by the State Inspector, while many attending had no idea about any of the causes. (I did work with him for a day in the blueberry fields, which was enlightening.) If you have the three mentioned above, then success will revolve around when the queen starts laying, since that determines when the bees start protecting the brood. If they cannot move to nearby stores, they will starve even if those store are only an inch away. That is where wrapping or not wrapping comes into play: to allow the bees to move to stores. If, like Keith, you are experimenting, you will eventually end up with a late laying queen. You can get there quick by starting with Carneoleans, as I did. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 07:10:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <200411062310.iA6MF0u3000202@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-15F11462; boundary="=======51571D47=======" --=======51571D47======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-15F11462; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Since I wrap every colony, every year, I should add something here. I keep bees on the 45th...northern VT and NY. We have long cold winters, with temps getting into the -20 to -30 F range. The bees have no cleansing flights from mid-November to mid-March...and sometimes to mid-April. Most will agree that it is not the cold that kills bees. I believe it is the long period with no cleansing flight that does. Two winters ago, it was very cold...frostbite weather on the slopes...just look at my poor nose. When March rolled in, the temps approached flying weather, but the west/northwest wind blew and blew. This prevented many yards from taking their first flights...some yards until mid-April. Dysentery was a real problem. Winter losses were higher than normal. Last winter was another severe one. Again...poor nose. March came around., and again it was too cold for flights. One afternoon, with the sun shining strongly, the temperatures came close...probably 30 something F. I took a drive past one yard, just to look. In a strip about 4' wide, right down the rows of hives, the snow was bright yellow. The bees had had a good cleansing flight. But, it wasn't what you would usually see. More often, there is yellow snow throughout the entire yard. Bees fly far from the hive to release their loads. Dead bees are scattered here, there, and everywhere. This day was different. The bees had only flown a short way from the hives...perhaps 5' or so. There were no dead bees on the snow...anywhere. I would say from this, that the black wrap in the bright March sun had warmed the hive, and the air around it enough for the bees to take a short flight. They didn't go far, and they all got back in, but they got the job done. For the rest of the spring, dysentery wasn't a problem. I guess where I keep bees, wrapping isn't necessary every year. I know beekeepers who never wrap. But, I believe that there are years when it helps the bees make it through the winter, so I wrap every colony, every year. Mike --=======51571D47=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 07:13:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TNT Apiaries Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot Writes: >The sun shines directly on the hives and the heat travels through the > wood and keeps the interior warm for a few hours hives, the bees > have the chance to take a break from being heaters. Saturday on the northern Canadian prairies it was +2C with a windchill factor which made it feel like -3C. We had a clear sky, but the sun's rays didn't have enough strength to melt the frost off the south side of my maroon (dark, heat absorbing colour) pickup truck. How much heat do you think traveled through the wood of a super........ Those rays will continue to loose strength for another 40+ days yet. What happens in reality? I have 3 unwrapped singles sitting in my yard. They are strong enough to be wintered outside, but rather than "wrap" an odd number they're going into the wintering building with the nucs. I looked under the lid at one yesterday just before noon. It had been given a feedpail because the crew thought they might a little light. The bees were not on the feed and were so tightly clustered that I don't think a pin would have slid between any of them. By the way my broods are painted forest green, a heat absorbing colour. I drove two miles down the road to a yard that when we wrapped it, we decided they also needed another pail of feed. Inside the wraps the clusters were spread out and taking the feed well. Bees were at the entrances. Time and again I have seen people try to cut back on the wrapping and >Snow is great, wrapping is not. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 09:40:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ian Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? >Minus 22 to minus 13 Fahrenheit is really not that cold, so what was your NIGHT >TIME LOWS? This is what you could be concerned about. To the post before ,I oviously ment MINUS 30 degrees C. I mean really here, did I really have to correct that miss type out? To Keith, -25 as day time highs is cold, and that leading into -30 -35 night time lows is very hard on the bees. -25 does not allow the bees a break during a cold snap and when the cold snap is 4 weeks long, things happen Ian :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 12:01:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scientists Uncover How Bee Venom Eases Arthritis http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=571&e=11& u=/nm/venom_arthritis_dc :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:50:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: TNT Apiaries Subject: Sorry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My previous post somehow got sent out before I finished it. I'm not really sure what happened there. My apologies to everyone. A number of others have expressed many of the thoughts which I had intended to include. The whole snow verses wrapping thing could take a few paragraphs. I would however like to finish my last sentence which if left might be taken out of context. "Time and again I have seen people try to cut back on the wrapping and time and again I have seen disastrous results." Dave Tharle Ardmore, AB :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 09:38:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <200411070029.iA706e51003624@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do you live in Florida, or am I mistaken? :) You know the funny thing about Florida? Most people came from the north. Grew up in mountains cold and snow from October to March/April. I have been beekeeping since I was 15 years old, and only started FLORIDA beekeeping last year with a 8 year absense from the bees. I have as many as 20 hives in the north, and I have 33 hives in the first year here. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 22:40:22 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- From: Paul D. Law (aka Dennis) > Scientists Uncover How Bee Venom Eases Arthritis > > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=571&e=11& > u=/nm/venom_arthritis_dc > About a year ago I stumbled upon a study in Spain which suggested (in the views of the researches - proved) that bee venom actually causes arthritis rather than cures it. The conclusion says: "Beekeepers have joint disease apparently related to bee stings. Etiopathogenesis is unknown. Mechanical trauma, venom compounds, infection, and foreignbody synovitis are factors that are thought to influence the pathogenesis of this syndrome. We designate the condition "beekeepers' arthropathy," and consider it an occupational disorder." The link is: http://www.natur.cuni.cz/~listserv/vcelari/vcelari.200110//msg00027.ht ml but be careful of the wrap. Steve Rose, Derbyshire, England :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 23:06:27 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: (no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" sent a link to: > Scientists Uncover How Bee Venom Eases Arthritis > > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=571&e=11& > u=/nm/venom_arthritis_dc So why are there so many arthritic old beekeepers around? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:45:42 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce the need to do so? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ian & All, > -25 as day time highs is cold, and that leading into -30 -35 night time > lows is very hard on the bees. -25 does not allow the bees a break during > a cold snap and when the cold snap is 4 weeks long, things happen > That is not extremely cold either or that long and bees can survive those temperatures inside a hive with top insulation only along with adequate quality feed. the only bees that will not survive are those that did not have enough feed and did not prepare properly themselves for the winter ahead. Those that prepared properly and with the intellect and good habits to survive will survive and in my opinion are the only ones worthy of perpetuating anyways. Any crutch will weaken genetically any stock to the point of needing to continue the crutch. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:59:24 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Descent and good wintering genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill & All, > If, like Keith, you are experimenting, you will eventually end up with a > late laying queen. You can get there quick by starting with Carneoleans, > as I did. > I feel from looking at many strains that all I am looking for is in the Russian bee, what ever descent they are. Nobody can give a real definitive answer to what they are. I would try out the Swedish black Apis m.m. but there is to much red tape involved in importing them to Alaska, even though I bet they would be a great bee for up here. At any rate these Russian bees already exhibit the habit of their queen laying late and building up quick in the spring which is just what I think a stock needs to do to survive our conditions. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 22:16:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Arthritis & bee stings (was no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter asks: So why are there so many arthritic old beekeepers around? I do see many arthritic hobby beekeepers. I do not see arthritis problems with lifelong still getting stung on a regular basis (keeping up immunity) commercial beekeepers. My mother had crippling rheumatoid arthritis. My father walked with a cane from arthritis. When I go to a family reunion and show the family I have not got arthritis they are amazed. To prove the point to my medical doctor (within last decade)when he tried to give me arthritis drugs I took an arthritis blood test which came back negative. When my blood was tested a high amount of the immunuglobulin G type (IgG) was found. IgG combines with the venom proteins to form biologically inactive complexes that the body can eliminate. (Riches 1991) Those hypersensitive to venom instead of generating IgG antibodies form a different immunoglobulin (IgE) which combines with venom proteins ,releasing histamine and other active agents (Riches 1982,1989). In a bee book published last year the following was said as fact: "With each sting a person gets less tolerant of the venom. Bee venom is cumulative" I do not believe the above is true! Research done by Riches & Dr. Steve Carlston do not agree with the above. researchers have told me it takes approx. 150 stings within a 12 month period to maintain immunity. Full immunity which I believe I carry simply put means I can be stung right next to a ring on my finger and no need to remove the ring. Zero swelling. It is my opinion (and other fulltime beekeepers) that if you swell you are not yet up to full immunity. Years ago I would swell slightly in early spring but for many years now the immunity lasts through the off season. I have heard stories of lifelong beekeepers getting hypersensitive to bee stings after a lifetime of beekeeping among but have never met one of these in fulltime beekeeper circles. Are the bee stings the reason I did not inherit the family arthritis???? Are bee stings cumulative and a future reaction will happen for sure???? Interesting subject. What does the list say? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::