From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:47:00 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ACBA4904A for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKlV012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0411B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 122385 Lines: 2791 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:55:20 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings (was no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Bob Harrison" wrote > In a bee book published last year the following was said as fact: > > "With each sting a person gets less tolerant of the venom. Bee venom is > cumulative" Clearly rubbish! If it was correct then beekeepers would have to give up after they reached a certain number of stings - and there would be very few commercial beekeepers! > researchers have told me it takes approx. 150 stings within a 12 month > period to maintain immunity. I read 12 (somewhere). > Full immunity which I believe I carry simply > put means I can be stung right next to a ring on my finger and no need to > remove the ring. Zero swelling. I would imagine that plenty of us are in that situation. Initial pain, but 30 seconds later I would not really know where I had been stung. > I have heard stories of lifelong beekeepers getting hypersensitive to bee > stings after a lifetime of beekeeping among but have never met one of these > in fulltime beekeeper circles. I have known several, but in each case they were running less than 20 colonies and probably getting few stings. I would suggest that leather gloves may add to the problem because they allow the odd 'pin prick' rather than a full sting and this could be causing sensitisation rather than immunity. It is well known that beekeepers' spouses often become allergic due to low level exposure. Although it is easy to find references to the use of stings to relieve arthritis, I cannot find any studies that have looked at the incidence of arthritis in beekeepers and related this to the frequency of stings (I think that it would be impossible to measure the actual quantity of venom taken). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 06:32:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Oxalic Dribble Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3F0A5237; boundary="=======CC14855=======" --=======CC14855======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3F0A5237; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What are the lowest temperatures at which it is safe to dribble oxalic/syrup. Is the 35 - 38 F range ok? How about vaporizing oxalic? Mike --=======CC14855=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:58:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Sugar roll In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James W. Hock wrote: > I've received several e-mail off BEE-L about sugar rolls and using 10x > powdered sugar as an alternate vorroa mite treatment. The Maine Bee Inspector reported some time back that sugar rolls could give incorrect results. As I recall, it was time/temperature dependent so you could get indicators of no or few mites when there were actually many. Follow up ether rolls on the same bees gave accurate drops. So I would go down this route with caution. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:23:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Primorsky ARS Russian bee (was Descent and good wintering genetics) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: I feel from looking at many strains that all I am looking for is in the Russian bee, what ever descent they are. Nobody can give a real definitive answer to what they are. If you are using the pure Russian Primorsky ARS strain as imported we might not be able to say exactly the pedigree but we can say for sure what they are not which is Italian & carniolan other than a very small percent in some queens and none in others. DNA of many Russian queens backs up what I said above but the overwelming proof is in the fact these bees are difficult to introduce into a hive of Italian & carniolans and can be superceded at any time until the hive is completely the Russian queens own daughters (approx.8 weeks). Mass spec analysis of queen pheromones has shown the queens imported from Primorsky do indeed give off a different queen pheromone( Dr. Hoffman 2002 2003). As a beekeeper which may raise and sell pure Russian queens *in the future* from my stock and a lead person for another beekeeper which is selling pure Russian instrumentally inseminated breeder queens and pure Russian production queens the Russian introduction problem is real. Why you ask? Because queen breeders only guarantee live delivery and a pure Russian queen. Introduction and guarantee the bees will not supercede her before the colony is converted to all Russian can not be guaranteed. Most failure in the initial introduction is simply the beekeeper not taking enough time and attempting introduction in a strong hive of older bees instead of a nuc. Like many things which we discover later on in a project the difficult introduction the the pure Russian is now considered fact. Those selling Russian queens are not quick many times to share the above as could hurt sales. Myself and the Russian queen breeder I am working with will be honest with you. We always say if you are not willing to work through the Russian introduction problem then perhaps our line of survivor bee which is easy to introduce would be a better choice. Many U.S. queen producers have dropped the Russian line due to the example I am about to give. At a bee meeting the following story was shared by a beekeeper. The beekeeper tried to introduce three different Russian hybrid queens unsuccessfuly in three attempts in a strong hive of non Russian bees without success before in desperation the queen producer sent a non Russian queen which was introduced successfully. Four queens were shipped . In private I spoke with the above beekeeper and he said he introduced the Russians like he did his other queens by pushing a hole in the candy and sticking the queen cage in. I explained the method will not work with the pure Russian because of the pheromone difference but might at times work with a Russian hybrid but I would not want to take the chance. Pure Russian/Russian production queens are difficult to find in the U.S.. Until the supply meets demand the Russian/Russian queens should be given the the time consuming introduction neccessary. Beekeepers are on waiting lists to get these queens. Try to make every queen count. Pure Russian package bees could be avilable in future but not enough pure Russian hives exist now to shake Russian bees from so most likely if you order a Russian hybrid package the bees sent are not Russian which causes introduction problems due to the difference in queen pheromone as explained above. Reading my articles is the only way to get the big picture as the above only is like reading the front cover of a book and thinking you have read the book. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:54:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings (was no subject) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bob, How do they 'define' a sting? Does a person need to let a sting pump in all of its venom before removing it? Regards, Waldemar LI, NY >>...researchers have told me it takes approx. 150 stings within a 12 month period to maintain immunity. Full immunity which I believe I carry simply put means I can be stung right next to a ring on my finger and no need to remove the ring. Zero swelling. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:04:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? In-Reply-To: <200411070505.iA74QHqS010961@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting discussion on wintering bees! But I think that much of the discussion fails to consider the difference in bee physiology from our own. I don't think that insolation has an important effect when above flight temperature or when it is below dormancy temperatures. The importance of the wrap is at that marginal temperature zone and fluctuations around it. A colony of bees at a temperature below which it is forming a tight cluster is very efficient at conserving energy. A constant cold temperature is just the ticket for an easy winter. When temperatures are jumping up & down, allowing (forcing) the cluster to break/reform/break/etc this is very stressful and makes for a difficult winter for several reasons. The bees tend to consume more food and they release more moisture. A constant even temperature with periodic breaks that allow for the hive to cleanse & refuel is ideal. The idea of a vernalization chamber is to keep the bees dormant through the duration thereby reducing their activity--their metabolism. Remember insects are temperature dependent and slow down as the temperature cools. A cluster of bees needs to keep the queen warm but the outer cluster temperature is almost ambient (or just above freezing). My view--& this is my two cents--is that the real benefit of the wrap is in allowing the cluster longer periods of activity as the temperatures fluctuate back and forth across that critical zone --usually in the early spring & late fall. This allows for more activity just prior too and after the period of inactivity allowing in effect for a shorter overall winter. Knowing this one can feed right after the honey is pulled to keep an artificial flow going & hopefully brood rearing as well as make sure the hive is crammed full. Then in the spring the feed comes back on again stimulating brood rearing & colony growth. Wrapped hives get a jump on early development & growth as they are able to maintain hive temperature when the cluster is active not when its dormant. The insolation allows greater periods of activity only when the temperatures are moderate--not extreme because the colony will cluster going into conservation mode. There is a trade off here. A wrapped hive that has broken cluster early & stays active longer will need more stores to maintain this level of activity. It will probably need fall & spring feed with extender patties (spring) too boot. The advantage is that one will have early bees for an early flow or many early bees for more or larger splits. By mid summer wrapped or unwrapped bee colonies will have equalized! Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:23:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: My status In-Reply-To: <00b601c4c549$c6c4fea0$0cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > When my blood was tested a high amount of the immunoglobulin G type (IgG) > was found. > > IgG combines with the venom proteins to form biologically inactive > complexes that the body can eliminate. (Riches 1991) As most know, In September my Dentist (ever think you would owe you life to your dentist?) found a lump in my neck during his "routine" cancer check and said to have it looked at. In less than two weeks it was out and was a walnut sized tumor of malignant melanoma, a fast moving cancer. The Doctor who removed it was not encouraging since he had only seen people in my state that eventually died, since the cancer had spread to other parts of their bodies. I said that he really had to tell to all his patients that they were going to die, since all of us die. He said, "Not me". Since then, two CT scans and a bone scan revealed no additional tumors or cancer spread. On Wednesday I will have some lymph nodes removed just to make sure it did not move down the line (also fairly typical). Since I will be in overnight, I will have a chance to chase the nurses (as long as they walk slow). I will let you know the results (not of the chase but the lymph nodes). Malignant melanoma usually starts on the surface of the skin then moves to the lymph nodes and then to lungs/other organs. About eight years ago I had a MM removed from my cheek. All my Doctor's think that it was the cause of the eventual lymph node tumor, since it followed the normal pattern. But none can explain why it took so long to develop. A few years before I had the MM on my cheek, I heard Charles Mraz speak to us about bee stings and arthritis. I had been having problems with my shoulder- could not sleep on it without great pain- and had seen Doctors, had cortisone shots, and was scheduled for surgery, so decided that I would try Charles' bee stings. I have never looked back- no surgery and no more shots. I got full movement in my arm and sleep fine on the same shoulder. But I do have to sting myself every spring and fall directly on the shoulder, usually about four-six stings each time. Plus, since I get a load of bees in my kitchen when I extract (twice a year), I do a little impromptu stinging then (and occasionally, so do the bees. Malignant Melanoma is one of the few cancers that an immunization shot may be used to combat it- to develop anti-bodies in your system. They are still in trials but are close to FDA approval. I asked my Doctors if my bee stings were the cause of the slow development of the cancer. None ruled it out. Bob's post was serendipitous. I looked up immunoglobulin G type (IgG) and it is currently a strong contender for cancer treatment. So 1=1 might actually equal two in my case. My Oncologist thought it would be interesting to see if there were any volunteers for a study. My bees did not cure my cancer but they may be the cause for keeping it in check. I could have given up keeping bees like most in my area, but enjoy the hobby and the people associated with it. Had I done so, I might have been signing my death notice. Instead, after the tumor was removed, I added my neck to the routine stinging for my arthritis. Those bees will stay in my backyard as long as we are here. I thank all of you who have emailed me after I learned about the cancer and all that have continued to ask how I am doing. I appreciate your encouragement and support. My son called a short time ago and said- Dad, did you realized that your bees died so you could live, just as Christ died for you? Thank you for your continued prayers. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:41:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings (was no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar asks: How do they 'define' a sting? Does a person need to let a sting pump in all of its venom before removing it? Leaving the sting in for approx. fifteen minutes is the way the apitherapy people define a sting in the seminar I attended (MSBA meeting 1994). I rarely remove the stinger when busy working bees but I do usually smoke the sting area. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:48:23 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Primorsky ARS Russian bee (was Descent and good wintering genetics) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Bob Harrison said... > Most failure in the initial introduction is simply the beekeeper not taking > enough time and attempting introduction in a strong hive of older bees > instead of a nuc. I want to emphasise this, but point out that it is the difference in race or strain that make such introductions difficult... It is not that the queens are 'Russian', but that they are very different to the colonies that they are being introduced to. The introduction period itself can take weeks, I have known it to take as many as 14 days and I have heard of examples up to 23 days. When you have something valuable like a breeder queen that may be $500, you need to be very sure about introduction. The very best method that I have come across so far is mentioned on... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/queenintro.html#ak_st_jd This may at first sight seem like a great deal of trouble, but it works. Regards & Best 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Temporary Conditions... Using 'PATCHY' VPN pass-through server 2nd build :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 06:44:25 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Descent and good wintering genetics) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, > Pure Russian package bees could be avilable in future but not enough pure > Russian hives exist now to shake Russian bees from so most likely if you > order a Russian hybrid package the bees sent are not Russian which causes > introduction problems due to the difference in queen pheromone as explained > above. > When I first started using the Russian lines over three years ago now, this was a problem, but as my supplier in the coming years began changing his stock over to Russians more and more the introduction of queens to his package bees became no problem at all. Plus as more and more of his stock became Russian the more gentle the queens progeny has become. I think the Russian line of bees are great and one reason why I am using the Russian lines to help me in developing a winter hardy bee for Alaska. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:17:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 6 Nov 2004 to 7 Nov 2004 (#2004-299) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/11/2004 05:10:37 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: > So why are there so many arthritic old beekeepers around? > > Because beekeepers live so long. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:19:51 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Sugar roll MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "James W. Hock" " I've received several e-mail off BEE-L about sugar rolls and using 10x > powdered sugar as an alternate vorroa mite treatment. ..... The > object is to cover the bees to make the mites release. .....For a few > hives, a simply bulb duster should work fine, a couple of puffs of > the bottom board, a few heavy puffs under the inner cover. ... For > several to hundreds of hives (or > thousands) there are larger dusters and power dusters available that would > better suited to the job." I am sorry there were no comments ON list. Quoting the NZ 'Control of Varroa' page 50 'sugar dusting has been researched in Finland and shown to knock down 47 -56 as many mites as fell naturally. 15gms of super-fine sugar was dusted between combs in 2-storey hives. Best results with repeats every 2 days - can be used at any time of year'. It does not seem to be a sole means of control, but if it knocks down mites without risks to bees , then why not dust every time the hive is opened for other reasons? It would only take a minute. Could support biotech methods such as brood removal. James is bringing his experience with simple bulb dusters to our attention. Thank you. Please do report results next year. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:31:06 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings (was no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" I do not see arthritis problems > with lifelong still getting stung on a regular basis (keeping up immunity) > commercial beekeepers." The problem with this anedotal evidence is that any commercial beekeeper who did get bad arthritis would have had to give up and so Bob would not be meeting him. Both my parents had bad arthritis and I am clear, so far. Due to taking glucosine sulphate plus cod liver oil daily in my view, rather than the 100+ stings I must get a year . But I could believe stings stimulate the immune system - the venom has to be neutralised. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 22:19:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Fanning Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <00b601c4c549$c6c4fea0$0cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Related Link: www.beevenom.com Bob Fanning Huntsville AL 35802 USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:47:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 6 Nov 2004 to 7 Nov 2004 (#2004-299) In-Reply-To: <77.37f5d042.2ec1589d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: >>So why are there so many arthritic old beekeepers around? >> > Because beekeepers live so long. http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/content_pages/record.asp?recordid=48371 Fred Hale is from Maine and a beekeeper. I knew him when he was here. He moved a couple of years ago and is in a nursing home in NY, closer to relatives. When I was the editor of the State newsletter I took a picture of three beekeepers sitting together. They represented 220+ years of beekeeping. Fred was one of them. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:15:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings In-Reply-To: <200411090419.iA94Jbe3009480@smtp.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stinging might or might not work. It worked for me but for others it does not. I have no idea why, but it is probably the nature of the disease. My arthritis was most painful in the winter and lessened to manageable in the summer (when I was being stung). It was after Charles Mraz's talk that I thought the stings and relief were related. And they were. I am not an expert on arthritis, but I know several auto-immune diseases have a common name but are actually different manifestations of the same symptoms or even different symptoms. One I am very familiar with is Meniere's Disease. You can have different symptoms but still be diagnosed with Meniere's. Some treatments are effective for some, but not for others even with the same symptoms. My guess is arthritis is the same, which is why one thing works for some but not others, just as a sting is nothing to one person but deadly to another. In the same manner, whatever kept my cancer in check is probably also unique and might or might not be the stings, even though evidence points that way. Again, we are in the world of the anecdotal where truth and hope reside. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 17:59:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Russian and insulation In-Reply-To: <885DE131-3197-11D9-840A-000A95AFB180@cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Interesting discussion on wintering bees! Each time this theme come up on the list, I learn something or I understand a step further. Teaching is repetitious... I don't > think that > insolation has an important effect when above flight > temperature or > when it is below dormancy temperatures. I have no thermocouple in my hive, unfotunately. But I measured T, RH% and ventilation flow last week, by curiousity, using a probe for IAQ (indoor air quality)study. I measured T and RH between frame 1 and inner side hive, and frame 10 and inner side hive in the bottom box in order to compare poly and wood hives. All insulated with reflectix. Outdoor condition : 54 %RH and and 7 to 8C (depending on clouds cover, the probe is quite sensitive), in the late afternoon (17h). When there was no curious bee on the probe: 10C to 11C, 60 to 70% RH in 4 hives tested between side frame and inner hive side. (2 hives in poly, 2 in wood, too lazy to measure others; 3 hives with upper ventilation, 1 without ventilation) Same test in the morning the next day. Outdoor and inhive (at the sampling points) air conditions were the same. Other observation: Sunday was a sunny day with about 10C outdoor. I took advantage of the day to treat with OA. I was amazed to see 6 italian hives very busy. Bees were looking for water immediately around hives, especially on the hives top. This activity stpped as soon as clouds hide the sun. 1 Italian hive had no activity. This hive has no ventilation. I experienced to let the poly feeder on it for the full winter. I opened the top insulation and could see drops on the transparent plastic of the fedder and bees licking drops. I could also see some water on bootom sides... 3 other hives had no activity. All 3 are Russian. I was wondering why because they are all ventilated and dispatched among Italian hives in as sunny location as Italians. Any explaining comments welcome Hervé Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:24:46 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Russian and insulation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Hervé & All, > 3 other hives had no activity. All 3 are Russian. I > was wondering why because they are all ventilated and > dispatched among Italian hives in as sunny location as > Italians. > > Any explaining comments welcome > First the temperatures seem warm for winter temperatures or I guess fall temperatures depending on where you are. It might depend on whether there is any forage about where the bees are located. The Italian colonies are probably still brooding while I might think the Russians have either slowed or stopped brooding for the season. If there is no forage about the Russians have probably stopped brooding for the season. Italians have a habit of brooding out of season. With the Italians gathering water, this may indicate that they are into brooding and need the humidity inside the hive for the brood. One thing I have observed about the Russian bees that I keep is that they will stay quite in the fall and winter when there is no forage or if the temperatures are low and there is no good reason for them to be flying. This I count as a good trait for my northern climate where they will not fly until temperatures are high enough for safe cleansing flights and they are capable of returning to the hive. Other strains of bees I find taking cleansing flights at lower temperatures and end up with some bees dying in the snow. I find the Russian bees very conservative, frugal, able to handle a high level of stress and remain calm, able to hold their bowls for long periods with no problems, and deal with lower temperature without insulation. I have only been observing Russians now for three summers and two winters so my opinion might change with more time with them. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:02:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: So Does Insulation Wraping & Polystyrene Hives Induce More Mites? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Griggs posted: (along with some other good insight) There is a trade off here. A wrapped hive that has broken cluster early & stays active longer will need more stores to maintain this level of activity. It will probably need fall & spring feed with extender patties (spring) too boot. The advantage is that one will have early bees for an early flow or many early bees for more or larger splits. ===================================== Very little has been said about wind chill and evaporation through the wooden walls of an unwrapped hive. This I am quite confident is an important factor. I have noticed that wrapped colonies do not consume as much stores as the unwrapped until of course they start raising brood and as you say they start earlier and build faster. Here is where insulation really enters the picture. This is the time they must generate enormus amounts of heat, relative to the clustered colony. They are now becoming space heaters so the R value is definately important. Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH 03051 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 21:11:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - arthritis and bee venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bee stings and Arthritis. I have been a beekeeper for 66 years. I seldom wear a veil or gloves (except when working with Spanish bees which are fierce). Contraptions to prevent stinging prevent me from sensing factors which are very important for me, so I do not wear them and consequently I get stung often. I have a very severe case of gout and bee stings do not do anything for it. So much for the "venom and arthritis theory." However, on the other hand, I have heard that beekeepers do not suffer from arthritis. Best regards and God bless. Dr. Rodriguez -- Proclaiming The Lord´s expression and creation with our honey bees. __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:01:58 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - arthritis and bee venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" >I have a very severe case of gout and bee stings do not do anything for it. So much for the >"venom and arthritis theory." Is there a connection between gout and arthritis? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 06:15:09 -0500 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 6 Nov 2004 to 7 Nov 2004 (#2004-299) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdale wrote about a picture of three old beekeepers, Mr. Hale being one of them. If he still have the photo please post it to the forum... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:24:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: S Wilson Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - arthritis and bee venom In-Reply-To: <3C8A9984.27DDD255.023E1E12@netscape.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dr R, Do some research on milk for gout. Several studies have been done: two servings of milk products appear to lower gout attacks. A friend who's an electrician hadn't been able to work due to gout, and hates milk. He chokes it down daily, though, and has been back on the job. Also, research cinnamon for diabetes. Neat story about how they teased out that one. I have about 20 diabetic friends and all independently say this has stabilized their blood sugar (both type 1 & 2). I believe in double blind studies, and both these have had good studies on efficacy. I would love to see some studies on bee products/stings, as they did on Manuka honey for healing wounds. As for stings, since my wrists are more exposed than the rest of me I get stung on them most. I no longer swell, but later may itch very slightly. I have arthritis in the left wrist at the based of my thumb, and stings don't seem to help. Lifting and moving frames irritate the situation. I wish stings did help. Arthritis runs in the family (all kinds). I do feel that working the bees is beneficial in general. When I'm in the bees my whole outlook is different. I can afford to be slow and methodical. The 'buzz' stays with me for days. But then I'm lucky not to feel any economic pressures like those admirable guys with 100s of hives. I would welcome referrals to studies. Anecdotes are indicators, studies are more solid. Thanks to all for the positive helpful tips about the art of beekeeping. Susi Wilson :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:38:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - arthritis and bee venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" said: >I have a very severe case of gout and bee stings do not do anything for it. So much for the >"venom and arthritis theory." Peter asks: Is there a connection between gout and arthritis? The arthritis foundation puts gout in the arthritis category. However gout is very different than most arthritis because we know gout is caused by the buildup in the joints of uric acid crystals. My father also had gout along with osteoarthritis arthritis . Attacks always flared up when he did not take his gout medicine to control his uric acid level. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:31:52 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bill Truesdell" My arthritis was most painful in the winter and lessened to manageable in the summer (when I was being stung)." When it was also warmer and drier - and your diet included more salads - or even perhaps when the days were longer and you were getting more sunlight. Difficult to isolate a single factor, perhaps? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:56:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings My wife does the paper work for my contracting business, and typing is very important to her. Her arthritis was so bad that she could hardly type, but about 3 years ago I decided why not give bee stings a try? It works like magic. If a joint swells up and gets painful, it takes just one sting right on the joint and she's better for a year or so. No pain, no swelling, it's as simple as that. Never been to a doctor for it. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:09:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rosalind James Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings Bill Truesdell wrote: My arthritis was most painful in the winter and lessened to manageable in the summer (when I was being stung). .............. Arthritis is also affected by exercise. It's likely you get a lot more exercise in summer than you do in the winter, and that could be a compounding factor in the reason why you have less of a problem in the summer. You could test this by doing some "resistance training" (weight lifting) in the winter. That has also been shown to benefit arthritis suffers. (Kind of like lifting supers?). Then get back to us and let us know which works better, the bee stings or the weights?! --Rosalind James :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:40:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...about 3 years ago I decided why not give bee stings a try? > It works like magic. If a joint swells up and gets painful, it takes > just one sting right on the joint and she's better for a year or so. I've concluded that people differ in their reactions. Some get joint pain (usually temporary AFAIK) from bee stings, others get cures that seem miraculous. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:38:34 -0500 Reply-To: Dutchmans Gold Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dutchmans Gold Subject: BeeVenom & Arthritis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Fellow Bee-List Participants: Just wanted to share this article on BeeVenom and Arthritis (positive = aspects), with y'all, for your own perusal. I myself have been on BeeVenom Therapy for some time, now just 10 = stings once a week. This is for my arthritic knees. And so it's = helping me , so far. Besides there doesn't seem to be a lot of other = alternatives, in my present state of having , "the knees of an 85yr. = old" (said by my doctor) and I close to half that age (a little = more...)- -too young for severe osteo-arthritis. I started with a = gradual increase of 4-8 stings everyday (or every other-day) for 2 = months. Took a 2 month break and then a week of daily stings then a = couple times a week , and presently once a week 8-10 stings on both = knees. I'm hoping for a pain free winter... Here are a couple of articles you can go to for some positive data on = the subject: = http://www.betterhumans.com/News/news.aspx?articleID=3D2004-11-04-3 Also can try this one: http://healthandfitness.sympatico.msn.ca/Bell.Sympatico.CMS/Print.aspx?ty= pe=3Dfeed&lan.... Regards, Annie vanAlten avanalten@execulink.com web: www.dutchmansgold.com Carlisle, Ontario Canada :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:05:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Bartlett Subject: Bee venum therapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was a book published sometime back titled: "Bees Don't Get Arthritis." Maybe somebody remembers that book. Bill Bee :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:07:26 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: "Honey may be good - alternative to high-fructose corn syrup" Comments: To: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi alll Keith Malone put me on to this site and it is just too rich to pass up posting for you all to read also and possibly comment on!! _http://www.newstarget.com/002284.html_ (http://www.newstarget.com/002284.html) Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com./group/OrganicBeekeepers/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:08:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "Honey may be good - alternative to high-fructose corn syrup" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [BEE-L] "Honey may be good - alternative to high-fructose corn syrup" The only article I ever wrote which remains unpublished is on the above subject with also refined sugar and its connection to diabetes added. My publisher thought ( and I reluctantly agreed) too controversial and anecdotal for the time period. Perhaps with further research and people opening their eyes we might publish in the future. In 1929, Dr. F.G. Banting, the discover of insulin, delivered a forthright warning,saying ,"IN THE UNITED STATES THE INCIDENCE OF DIABETES HAS INCREASED PROPORTIONATELY WITH THE PER CAPITA CONSUMPTION OF CANE SUGAR." Since then many medical men have expressed their concern over the indiscriminate use of refined sugar & corn syrup in the modern diet and have urged the return to greater use of honey. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:53:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have had arthritis since my 20's. The whole time since then I lived in Seattle, Washington. Three years ago, we moved to northern California to the Mediterranean, wine country. So, of course, the better weather made my arthritis better. But after a year here, I started keeping bees. The first year, I didn't get stung much (I only had 6 hives and wore the complete bee suit.) But this year and last year I have been stung a whole lot, because I went after swarms, took bees out of walls and increased the amount of hives I tended. The stings along with eating honey, pollen, royal jelly and propolis have all improved my arthritis and general health. My husband takes propolis if he even THINKS he's got a sore throat. Our health is so much better now. It is difficult with so many factors influencing us, but many days I don't need to use the cane I've used for 10 years. Whatever is responsible....I'm very happy. Kathy Cox, Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets Northern California, Italian, 40 hives www.kathycox.frankcox.net In a message dated 11/10/2004 1:35:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, gmv47@DIAL.PIPEX.COM writes: From: "Bill Truesdell" My arthritis was most painful in the winter and lessened to manageable in the summer (when I was being stung)." When it was also warmer and drier - and your diet included more salads - or even perhaps when the days were longer and you were getting more sunlight. Difficult to isolate a single factor, perhaps? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:38:00 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: "Honey may be good - alternative to high-fructose corn syrup" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, The thing I found funny about the article is they propose honey as an alternative to corn syrup when in the past corn syrup was developed as an (cheap or less expensive) alternative to honey. At what cost is corn syrup cheaper for human consumption or as a bee feed, corn syrup not being honey with honey's wholesome qualities? . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:42:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob Harrison writes: > > With tens of thousands of hives crashing in the U.S. right > now more than ever (from varroa resistant to both Apistan & > Checkmite) do beekeepers need those bees & packages. > > Dee asks: > Where are your figures coming from for this information or > is this just a statement of your beliefs? At the Alberta Beekeepers Association meeting earlier this week, Lyle Johnston (AHPA president) indicated that he suspects that there will be a loss of about 40% of US hives between now and February. Bad news just keeps coming in. May US beekeepers have relied on Apistan, then coumaphos. Now neither are working. Eric Mussen, at the same meeting, says that in California, coumaphos is good for about two years, then resistance develops. Beekeepers are still not monitoring, and many surprises await those who don't. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ 2005 US National meetings: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/USmeetings/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:23:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: "Honey may be good - alternative to high-fructose corn syrup" In-Reply-To: <000c01c4c808$a67e38c0$2abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob Harrison wrote: The only article I ever wrote which remains unpublished is on the above subject with also refined sugar and its connection to diabetes added. My publisher thought ( and I reluctantly agreed) too controversial and anecdotal for the time period. Perhaps with further research and people opening their eyes we might publish in the future. Reply: I think perhaps you should, so the cycle can have help going full circle again, to help open up markets for increased sales for beekeepers willing to do the work to have clean wholesome honey again without contamination in beehives to worry about. Thinking increased price, for such honey would make it worthwhile for Bob to give in and change out him combs to small cell someday in the future. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:36:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: Bee venum therapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This book was authored by Fred Malone ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bartlett" To: Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 10:05 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Bee venum therapy > There was a book published sometime back titled: "Bees Don't Get > Arthritis." Maybe somebody remembers that book. > > Bill Bee > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:13:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, Allen wrote: At the Alberta Beekeepers Association meeting earlier this week, Lyle Johnston (AHPA president) indicated that he suspects that there will be a loss of about 40% of US hives between now and February. 40% figures out to a bunch of hives any way you figure. I have already heard of beekeepers with 50% losses and winter is not here yet. Allen said: Bad news just keeps coming in. Many US beekeepers have relied on Apistan, then coumaphos. Now neither are working. Very true. Reports to me have said another method has been used also but now is failing. The true solution is varroa tolerant bees, soft varroa control ,with contaminated comb replacement and monitoring mite loads or Perhaps replace all your comb with small cell foundation and downsize your bees. Possibly with hives crashing and comb from years of strips needing replaced a viable option to some now. Dadant sells the wax foundation and the plastic. Rollers are available for "roll your own". I have sit on this information on BEE-L long enough but did not want to steal all the thunder from the bee labs winter presentations so have kept quiet. The bee labs are going to show slides at national meetings showing contamination levels from chemical strips (each & together). new mass spec machines have made the information possible. Recommendation is going to be made to start rotating comb from the brood nest which has been exposed to chemical strips. These slides and information was shown at the fall Georgia Beekeepers meeting by the Beltsville Bee lab . Allen said: Eric Mussen, at the same meeting, says that in California, coumaphos is good for about two years, then resistance develops. A super varroa mite has been running around California which seems unefected by every method of control tossed at it. many beekeepers doing pollination in California last year took the varroa (super mite) home. Many beekeepers are cussing almond pollination as they got little if any honey crop this year and now half their hives are dead. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:56:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Reddell Subject: Hobbyists and the evolutionary approach to mite resistance In-Reply-To: <001501c4c865$90435380$32bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I just signed up on BEE-L today after being away for about 4 years. I spent the afternoon in the archives, and I am amazed to see current discussions of Apistan and other chemical controls so prevalent still. I thought this topic was a dead end several years ago. When I was a kid back in the 50s and 60s we thought chemistry and technology would soon solve ALL of our problems. By now we should have learned that it just ain't so. We have to learn how to resume our place as intelligent participants in the natural order. Among other things, that means accepting our temporary losses as the cost of adaptation, and being smart (and patient) about how to participate in that adaptation. In my case, I have spent a lot of money, time, and energy on resistant queens and screened bottom boards, and endured many colony losses, but I am beginning to find that the bees that survive are strong and hardy, even with background varroa populations present. I'm also finding a lot of feral colonies in my area again as well. I stopped using chemical treatments for mites about the time I unsubscribed from BEE-L 4 years ago. I'm a hobbyist, so it's easier for me to do this than if I had 2000 hives and a full time income to protect, so I don't want to come off as too critical of those of you who are trying desperately to make ends meet. But for those of you who can afford to take some blows to the chin and get back up, it will help us all if you contribute to the hardiness of EHB by striving for resistance rather than subjecting yourselves and your bees to short-term fixes that ultimately only compromise your bees and strengthen the mites. As hobbyists, we have a unique opportunity to contribute to this adaptive effort because we are not so much under the gun as the commercial guys. Michael Cambria, California :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:23:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [Organicbeekeepers] Fw:[BEE-L] Hives crashing Comments: To: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, ApiarianBreedersGuild@yahoogroups.com, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone writes; Maybe it is time other beekeepers change methods too, but only after studying. There is a right and a wrong way to do SCB. Maybe I am wrong? Reply: Keith, interesting reading what Bob Harrison wrote and you too. But you are right, there is a right and a wrong way to do SCB, which includes proper positioning also of the combs to minimize swarming on a more natural system, besides other stress problems while regressing the bees down over a minimum period of time for hobbysts/sideliners of 3-5 years, and for commercial......well I hate to tell Bob how long he is in for knowing how long we are into it and getting the work parameters figured out, with sutle field management changes here and there that are necessary. Regards, Dee A. Lusby :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:52:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > > Perhaps replace all your comb with small cell foundation and downsize your > bees. > > Recommendation is going to be made to start rotating comb from the brood > nest which has been exposed to chemical strips. . Many beekeepers > are cussing almond pollination as they got little if any honey crop this > year and now half their hives are dead. Hello Bob and All, My phone has been ringing for weeks about the problem in California. Some of the problem can be solverd by , just GOOD beekeeping practices. Replace 30% of the brrod comb every year. Keeps a healthy hive for the long run. We all knew that the chemicals would get into the wax.The molecular structure of wax makes that happen. My opinion on pollenation with the almonds is simple. If you want a problem , do it. You can't put that many hives in one area and not spread problems like wildfire. Look at the bottom line in cost. I think some beekeepers are getting the picture. Some are going out of business.I know the money looks good up front. It will even look better because of the lack of bees for the almonds. This list has plenty of info about the problem. From day one , putting chemicals in the hive was not going to be a good idea. If it is not there already don't put it in. The real good news about this situation , comes with a paradygm shift. I think all beekeepers should see the writting on the wall, not just a few. Lets use the tools we have, other than chemicals. It is easy to proove things after the fact.We spend a lot of money and time to come up with the proof, that we should have seen in the first place. What kind of thest you do and how you develop new tests is not the answer. Looking with reason and the knowledge you have should lead you to the answer , before you have a problem. Beekeeping in the US is on one knee right now. This will be the worst winter in history. Count on it. We will raise from the ashes and be a lot smarter for it. Think small cell and breeding. It will come out on top for the long run. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:46:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain With the prediction of great colony losses this coming winter, I am thinking a lot of bee genetics unable to cope with varroa will go away. It would seem breeding from the survivors will only speed up isolating and propagating resistant material. A light at the end of the tunnel? Waldemar LI, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:44:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Good news / Bad News... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At the Alberta Beekeepers Association meeting earlier this week, Lyle > Johnston (AHPA president) indicated that he suspects that there will > be a loss of about 40% of US hives between now and February. Bad > news just keeps coming in. OK, I forgot. There is good news... and some more bad... Good News: Almond pollination is looking like $75 this year and may hit $100 next.... And... There is an opportunity for those who are in a position to split multiple times and either sell nucs or packages. With packages at $35, a hive split 8 times during a season would return $245 and still leave a hive on the stand to repeat the next year. This could work for Canadians, too, since we can sell packages south. I sent several hundred packages to Arizona in October many years back. People not having mite trouble, and in an area where such splitting is feasible, might be smart to forget honey production and just produce bees for pollination, since... Bad News: ...honey _may_ be headed back to 60c. Countervail may be failing. Apparently Sioux Bee has pulled back from a $135,000 committment Bad News: As for packages, there may be a shortage in Canada this coming Spring, since the US can now buy from Aus and NZ -- AFAIK. If there is a general collapse in the US, there may be competition for any supplies available. Good News: If you are an Australian package producer, things look rosy allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:02:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Urgent need to 'borrow' a few hives in Bellvue/Seattle Area next week for research Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi all, We have a project that wraps this month. We also have a last minute opportunity to test a multi-array microphone system for tracking bees before we run out of time and money. The firm with specialty equipment is located in Bellevue, WA. We want to make a fast trip out before the month ends to test their system (using their electronics and our sound recording systems. We would need access to or permission to move a couple of hives that we would then: a) Train the bees to find a marked target b) Monitor bees at the target with an 8-microphone array We would need access to or ability to move a few colonies for a 24-48 hr test. No harm should come to the bees, and we would PAY 'rent' on the hives. Not sure yet whether it would be easier to move the hives to the backdoor of the electronics firm in Bellevue, or bring the equipment to a beeyard. Roy N. or others, can you give us a hand? Thanks Jerry Bromenshenk The University of MT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:35:25 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar & All, > I am thinking a lot of bee genetics unable to cope with varroa will go away. > Sounds logical. > It would seem breeding from the survivors will only speed up isolating and propagating resistant material. > Also sounds logical and practical in theory. The problem is a lot of beekeepers do not rear and mate their own queens and stock, and promising genetics will be lost when they import queens to requeen their hives. This will decrease genetic diversity. To remedy losing diversity beekeepers can breed from their survivors and trade stock periodically with beekeepers who keep similar strains so to keep down complex hybridization, improve diversity within a strain, and stabilize genetics instead of mixing it up to much. > A light at the end of the tunnel? > It helps to be an optimist if your a beekeeper. We just need to learn to keep bees more like our grandfathers did instead of relying on others to do the fundamentals, like breeding bees. JMO (Just MY Opinion), . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:26:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Good news / Bad News... In-Reply-To: <002c01c4c8df$559e33b0$1fb85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Allen Dick writes: Bad News: ...honey _may_ be headed back to 60c. Countervail may be failing. Apparently Sioux Bee has pulled back from a $135,000 committment Reply: Question: With 40% or so of bees dying, and you also saying produce nucs/packages for sale for pollenation migratory beekeeping..................what would be pushing the price down in the USA and possibly Canada? Are imports going to increase some how to drive the price down to consumers and beekeepers, or just beekeepers? And if less bees used for less USA honey production with more used for pollenation work, can you go deeper into specifics why what you said may be coming about? Respectfuly submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups,yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:31:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Good news / Bad News... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > what would be pushing the price > down in the USA and possibly Canada? Good questions. First, let me say that I am talking worst-case, and that things may not work out the way we predict. A sudden price decline is not a certainty, although a number of things are falling into place for such an eventuality over the next few years. Many things can change, although the huge sudden collapse of US bee populations is already well underway. Chemicals are now failing everywhere, and many beekeepers did not use the temporary respite they provided to get a sustainable program working for them. Many STILL do not monitor their mite load! Some are now going to high-dose fluvalinate - 10x the recommended - but we all know that avenue is a dead end. Anyhow... The honey price in Canada will fall far more than in the USA, since the Canadian dollar has been low (saving our bacon over the past few years), but now is headed for par with the US dollar. The loonie is already up 30% over the past 24 months from its all-time low. See http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=CADUSD=X&t=2y . The mitigating factor for Canucks, though is that white honey should fall less than the darker grades, and most of the Western Canadian crop is very white. > Are imports going to > increase some how to drive the price down to consumers and > beekeepers, or just beekeepers? The talk of consumer resistance turns out to have been just that, talk. Apparently retail sales are healthy, although industrial grades did prove to be price-sensitive. Industrial honey sales are expected to recover somewhat with lower prices. Retail packers, however, have gotten used to an expanded business, and margins are back up. Their locked-in expenses - and debts - have adjusted to the increased dollar volume. None of them will want to see their businesses shrink. They'll resist a retail price drop. Thus, the retail price is expected to hold better than the producer price. We'll see, since US packers may get hit by low-priced _packaged_ imports, as the Canadian packers were recently. In the background, many new countries are ramping up their bulk production, and, even if China learns to eat their entire production, plus some, in the next decade, which I predict, there are others like India and Brazil that have their eye on the USA, and think that $US 1.00 per _kilogram_ is a very attractive price. (That is 45c/lb). :( Even with the US dollar dropping like a stone, the price may not change much, since the major culprits curently driving down honey prices in the USA - China and Argentina - have their currency pegged to the US dollar. > And if less bees used for > less USA honey production with more used for pollenation > work, can you go deeper into specifics why what you said > may be coming about? Almond acreage is up, almond prices are up, and the cost of bees as a portion of the return to growers - even at $75 (or even $100) per set - is actually still quite low. Growers _know_ they need bees -- at least two hives per acre. Some are wanting three for insurance, since the third colony will pay for itself, plus some, although a third hive is not nearly as essential as the first two. Also see http://honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=876&nID=445 Even if US producers quit honey production entirely (will never happen) there will be little effect on honey prices, since the imports set the price and the world supply of honey is increasing. Having said all that, don't panic. A lot hinges on the next Argentine crop, due in February. They are now out of white honey, and if they have a failure, then the price may rebound. For the long term the answer is in quality assurance programs to differentiate North American honey from competitors, and provide grounds to exclude many of the current imports, on the basis of inadequate safety and sanitary precautions. Canada is well on the way to having a program in place: C-BISQT, it is called, short for Canadian Bee Industry Safety Quality and Traceability program. The US has nothing (zero) happening on this front, and I am told that many US beekeepers could not even meet the standards in some third world countries with their present set-ups, so it is not likely to happen soon. It is not even on the radar as far as I can tell. BTW, Lyle said the packer/importer honey board will not happen, for various reasons, and, FWIW, he did say some nice things about the current NHB. Now, more than ever, it is important to get out to the 2005 US National meetings. Info at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/USmeetings/. Anyone who has been thinking of coming to Alberta and hasn't made it yet, we're hoping to meet at the Fantasyland Hotel in the world-famous West Edmonton Mall again next year, so plan to attend. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:42:03 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "waldig@netzero.com" " With the prediction of great colony losses this coming winter, I am thinking a lot of bee genetics unable to cope with varroa will go away. It would seem breeding from the survivors will only speed up isolating and propagating resistant material. A light at the end of the tunnel?" A lovely thought. But many colonies that survive will do so because their keepers are using appropriate methods rather than from qualities in the bees themselves. The cleanest hives in Europe are said to be the Danish - who have settled down to regular sensible use of drone culling and a summer application of formic acid. So 'breeding from the survivors' may speed up isolating and propagating SENSIBLE VARROA CONTROL REGIMES. Not to argue against the long term hope of resistant bees , of course. But they are going to come out of targeted breeding programmes than concentrate the beneficial genes more than widespread culls of unresistant bees by the cruel indifferent processes of Nature. IMHO. So meanwhile, beekeepers need to learn the safe use of organic acids (as in Europe and Canada). Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:59:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Bee Size vs Cell Size Hi Guys, I've just finished measuring comb from Barry's top bar hive which had fully regressed Lusbees in it. It had the same broodnest structuce, tapered cell size and cell size distribution, within a few percent, seen in the other top bar hives I analysed. Barry will be posting the details at beesource and I might generate a web page as well. It appears bee size has very little to do with cell size. This should be useful to all small cell beekeepers. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:53:10 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Changes of the heart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well its really nice and interesting to see that as a group and also as individuals of the group that this list is starting to turn around a bit. When a few years ago, talking about small cell would get several people insulting you in such a manner as to pass moderation (when I unsubbed from the list), to several months ago when I rejoined where small cell wasn't poo poo'd on so much, but discussed as an unproven practice (unrpoven to this list). To now turning around and several detractors are now either halfway or fully advocating small cell or at least entertaining that this might be a real solution. I suppose a lot of this might have to do with the fact that most of us are no longer saying, "But its working for the Lusbys" but now able to say, "Hey it's working for ALL of us that do it." Its taken a long time to get here, I hope we can all move forward again together without taking 2 or 3 different and forceful camps. Its very nice to be here again, on this list as a group of people of common interest and common ground. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:29:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size In-Reply-To: <200411131559.iADFJcBp003036@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dennis Murrel writes: I've just finished measuring comb from Barry's top bar hive which had fully regressed Lusbees in it. Reply: First of all, Barry did not take back fully regressed bees from us. What he took back were nucs made from hives in the process of regression in our holding yard, many of which where still mounted upon swarm ketching frames, and were being stabilized for the field, at which time they then have to shift queen and go thru winter to finally size down the following year. I might also add, that Dennis following also took home 2 nucs or so to try from our holding yard, but nothing stabilized from in the field up in the hills. Dennis then writes: It had the same broodnest structuce, tapered cell size and cell size distribution, within a few percent, seen in the other top bar hives I analysed. Barry will be posting the details at beesource and I might generate a web page as well. Reply: This is good to know. That it compares to what you are seeing in your TBHs. How many do you have now by the way? I assume that both you and Barry successfully finished regressing the bees down then for uniform subfamily sizing with the workers. Dennis finishes: It appears bee size has very little to do with cell size. This should be useful to all small cell beekeepers. Reply: Really? Can you explain further? Respectfully Submited, Dee A. Lusby, Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:26:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size Comments: To: deealusby1@aol.com In-Reply-To: <200411131559.iADFJcBp003036@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dennis Murrell wrote: I've just finished measuring comb from Barry's top bar hive which had fully regressed Lusbees in it. Reply: I have already posted one reply here but forgot to add that this was back in 2000. and no further stock has been added that was in regression, and I doubt that AI has been used where they when. So like SMR queens, etc when first shift happens which should be acclimitizing to ones own area....what do you have after 4+ years? Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:02:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Record keeping and equalizing by commercial beekeepers. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use a notebook and digital camera in my 4 apiaries. I make a larger column on the left side of the notebook and there I make notes of what to do next time. i.e., needs super, feeding, combining, etc. Then at night while I'm wrapping up the day, I can look over that and make a to do list from it. Then, when the days go by and the memory fades, I have a cheat sheet to work from. Kathy Cox, Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets Northern California, Italian, 40 hives www.kathycox.frankcox.net In a message dated 11/1/2004 6:13:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, gmv47@DIAL.PIPEX.COM writes: I have never solved the problem with notebooks that it seems natural to record the state of each colony working HIVE BY HIVE (eg H3 needs 3rd super), whereas to plan the next trip, I need lists by TASKS ( eg extra supers needed on hives H3, H6, y, z..= take total 12 extra supers.) This implies making notes twice if using a purely manual system - time consuming - so I trust my memory which then always fails me. Does Bob make HIVE NOTES on site and then make up TASK LISTS at home later? Or is there a trick? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:14:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, Allen wrote: At the Alberta Beekeepers Association meeting earlier this week, Lyle Johnston (AHPA president) indicated that he suspects that there will be a loss of about 40% of US hives between now and February. 40% figures out to a bunch of hives any way you figure. I have already heard of beekeepers with 50% losses and winter is not here yet. Allen said: Bad news just keeps coming in. Many US beekeepers have relied on Apistan, then coumaphos. Now neither are working. Very true. Reports to me have said another method has been used also but now is failing. The true solution is varroa tolerant bees, soft varroa control ,with contaminated comb replacement and monitoring mite loads or Perhaps replace all your comb with small cell foundation and downsize your bees. Possibly with hives crashing and comb from years of strips needing replaced a viable option to some now. Dadant sells the wax foundation and the plastic. Rollers are available for "roll your own". I have sit on this information on BEE-L long enough but did not want to steal all the thunder from the bee labs winter presentations so have kept quiet. The bee labs are going to show slides at national meetings showing contamination levels from chemical strips (each & together). new mass spec machines have made the information possible. Recommendation is going to be made to start rotating comb from the brood nest which has been exposed to chemical strips. These slides and information was shown at the fall Georgia Beekeepers meeting by the Beltsville Bee lab . Allen said: Eric Mussen, at the same meeting, says that in California, coumaphos is good for about two years, then resistance develops. A super mite has been running around California which seems unefected by every method of control tossed at it. many beekeepers which did pollination in California last year took the varroa (super mite) home. Many beekeepers ( but not all) are cussing almond pollination as they got little if any honey crop and now half their hives are dead. Those beekeepers are worried sick they will not have enough bees to pollinate in California next spring ????? On the lighter side: we had a guy in high school got a dose of VD (not to be confused with varroa desturctor) twice from the same girl! He said he could not resist the temptation to return. Such is the lure of California almond pollination! A shot of antibiotic cures most VD but we are still looking for a cure for the California super varroa mite! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 06:57:21 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Natural Comb Cell Size vs Bee Size Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dennis & All, > It appears bee size has very > little to do with cell size. > Which is probably why the use of cell size influences low mite population numbers. brood in larger cells leaving more room for mites to multiply and brood in smaller cells leaving little to no room for multiplying. This is why Small cell beekeeping is called small cell beekeeping and not small bee beekeeping. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:30:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Weaver. [Was: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some time back, Danny Weaver wrote: > We've been selecting for Varroa > resistance for more than 10 years. We have not employed chemical > treatments for Varroa for more than 3 years. Many of our colonies > have survived much longer without chemical treatment. And despite no > chemical treatment for Varroa, our colonies are strong enough for us > to harvest bees for stocking queen rearing nuclei in February and > March, and strong enough to be shaken again in March and April for > packages too. After that, our colonies produce a honey crop in Texas > or on the Northern Plains, and some colonies produce a honey crop in > both places. The full text is at http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0410e&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=1806 After that, nothing concrete. These are very interesting claims, on a par with Lusbys' experience, but AFAIK, without any change of comb or difficult and expensive changes. I recall that back in 1999, at Apimondia in Vancouver, Danny was commenting in a talk he gave, that he had had a few drone colonies that were about to crater with varroa, and had requeened with one of his strains. The colonies had subsequently overcome varroa and recovered without other treatment. I found that remarkable and have mentioned it to others, but no one has had a comment. He did not say that they eliminated varroa, just that they did very well, even after coming very near death. My friends who have several Weaver stocks say that they do carry some detectible varroa, and also that they are pretty hot. They have not had them long enough to say whether it will survive long-term untreated in their Northern locale without succumbing to mites. Has anyone on this llist had any experience with Weavers' queens in this regard? Has anyone been down there to take a look? I should think that, in light of the huge losses that many are suffering, this bears some scrutiny. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:50:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size Hi Dee and Everyone, >...what do you have after 4+ years? Has it been that long? I certainly enjoyed visiting with you and Ed. Much has changed since then. I am no longer a commercial beekeeper, but keep a few hives for my own enjoyment. Now would be a good time to summarize my small cell experience. I found that once bees are on small cell sized comb: - they overwinter better - they build up faster in the spring - all bee races can tolerate varroa mites without treatment - I haven't had any problems with trachael mites - surplus bees have become a problem :>) - my average honey production has increased That's a pretty good list isn't it! Lots of factors are involved. Among them are cell size, clean wax, low mite presence and pesticide free hives. The difference that these factors make must be seen to be believed. I have established bees back onto clean, large cell sized comb, in pesticide free hives and achived all the same results except for the mite tolerance. That's how important cell size is. But regressing or getting bees onto small cell size comb has some downsides as well. First, the bees will only draw out a limited amount of small cell sized comb from foundation and then only at certain times of the year. In a northern climate that's less than a month. At these rates, the mites will overcome a beehive before enough small cell comb can be drawn out without treating the hive for mites. The impact of cell size was so dramatic on colony health that I built some top bar hives to observe broodnest/comb building for myself. What I observed has confirmed the importance of cell size on bee health. And equally important, HOW cell size fits into the broodnest structure and WHY bees have such trouble drawing out enough small cell sized comb in a standard hive. It is on these points, the hows and whys, that I respectively disagree with the Lusbys. They have focused on the bee itself, while I have focused on the broodnest structure. This difference in focus results in significant differences in colony management. The Lusbys, Barry Birkey and I have all experienced the benefits of keeping bees on small cell sized comb. We have had productive, pesticide free hives, that are healthier, overwinter better and can tolerate mites for at least 4+ years! And the Lusbys for much longer than that. But we have all experienced the downside as well. I hope my observations show how import cell size and broodnest structure is to the colony health and function. And that they will act as a spring board helping beekeepers to work with their bees. Best Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:39:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Reference breeder in Texas?(Re: [BEE-L] Weaver. [Was: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle)]) In-Reply-To: <004101c4ca67$38540850$6fb85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all: In the beginning with Bob Harrison first posting about hives crashing, didn't he mention a breeder in Texas with about 4,000 hives being wanted? Does anyone know who this was...........could Bob Harrison please tell us who would be that big there to need that many new colonies. Thank you. Regards Dee A. Lusby (just wanting to get this out of the way in thoughts, so if someone else, Weaver's can move on.) Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:16:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size In-Reply-To: <200411141750.iAEHkApS004129@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dennis Murrell wrote: I am no longer a commercial beekeeper, but keep a few hives for my own enjoyment. Reply: Great to hear you are keeping bees for your own enjoyment and hope you conitnue to do so for a long time. Dennis Murrell continues: once bees are on small cell sized comb: - they overwinter better - they build up faster in the spring - all bee races can tolerate varroa mites without treatment - I haven't had any problems with trachael mites - surplus bees have become a problem :>) - my average honey production has increased Reply: This is good you are seeing this along with others now in various parts all over the world now. There are many benefits to natural small cell size. The size 4.9mm was ended up with because we could not hold our bees in stress years on larger 5.0mm - to 5.1mm sizing from secondary diseases, so we fine tuned to the middle of the natural sizing spectrum, which then allows the bees once they seat in smaller to go in the direction they want then by latitude they are kept in..........meaning slightly smaller still, or slightly larger, and we do this by handmaking foundation as you know without cell walls, as originally made just using the pyrimads at the cell bottoms for impression. Dennis continues: But regressing or getting bees onto small cell size comb has some downsides as well. First, the bees will only draw out a limited amount of small cell sized comb from foundation and then only at certain times of the year. In a northern climate that's less than a month. At these rates, the mites will overcome a beehive before enough small cell comb can be drawn out without treating the hive for mites. Reply: Sorry to hear you are having problems, yet over in Norway, Hans-Otto Johnsen is doing fine and helping others learn to do so, and Keith Malone up in Alaska seems to be doing well also. I how you can figure out how to change the field management in your area to try to draw out more. Dennis continues: And equally important, HOW cell size fits into the broodnest structure and WHY bees have such trouble drawing out enough small cell sized comb in a standard hive. Reply: Again, sorry you are having problems. Wished when you were here visiting for a few days you could have had the time to visit our out beeyards with full sized coloines up in the hills to see how this side of the problem is worked. Many having problems have done this to overcome it, and even have come back on subsequent trips to fine tune the field managment with hands on training. Dennis continues: It is on these points, the hows and whys, that I respectively disagree with the Lusbys. They have focused on the bee itself, while I have focused on the broodnest structure. This difference in focus results in significant differences in colony management. Reply: This I disagree with, as we have focused on cell size for the environmental changes it creates for first change,then diet of honeybees, and lastly outbreeding high up in the hills on El Nino good years and not drought ones. Which means we pull in on drought years and hold, and then in El Nino years with wet seasons we go into breeding early and late with the lunar sun cycles of early spring and late fall (excepting thelytoky which is done in the other two sun cycles for stress is needed for change). Was raised believing that with survivalability you then work up bee numbers to then gain variability, and with numbers gained and variability, you then gain potential to breed as you gain control of your area.But this has also to mean being able to breed back and forth in Nature's circle and not man's artificially created one, as they seem to split out and seperate somehow. Think Br Adam said that a minimum of somewhere to 100-300 hives was needed to do this by the way for breeding bees. But to refresh you on the three parts I/we key to for environment (cell size), diet, and breeding you can go to: http://www.beesource.com/POV/lusby/ and there you will find a FREE book I wrote years ago with about 22 chapters or so, now that probably needs updating and final chapters finsihed/added. Dennis finishes: I hope my observations show how import cell size and broodnest structure is to the colony health and function. And that they will act as a spring board helping beekeepers to work with their bees. Reply: Yes, helping others onto a clean sustainable beekeeping system will help all of us I am sure. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:05:13 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Hives crashing (was Small Hive Beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" " A super mite has been running around California which seems unaffected by every method of control tossed at it." To save a rapid rise in beekeeper suicides :), could Bob clarify he meant CHEMICAL controls. The general belkied has been that mites will develop resistance to orgamic acids only very slowly, if ever. I just hope that is still true. IMHO we desperately need acids to bridge the time gap until varroa-toerant bees have been bred in every area. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:00:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size Hi Dee, Dee wrote: >Reply: This I disagree with... >But to refresh you on the three parts I/we key to for environment (cell >size), diet, and breeding you can go to: > http://www.beesource.com/POV/lusby/ >and there you will find a FREE book I wrote years ago with about 22 chapters >or so, now that probably needs updating and final chapters finsihed/added. My two cents worth: I am quite familiar with your text and the three parts upon which small cell beekeeping rests. Most of the material there describes how to get bees back to a natural small state from an artificially enlarged state that is presumed to currently exist. As I see it, this is the very basis for most of the field management techniques you have described there. You have written alot about the downsides I've mentioned in previous posts. Yet, I found that bees naturally and freely draw out small cell size comb at the proper location in a broodnest. This small cell size is the result of a constant taper the bees incorporate into broodnest comb. And all different kinds/sizes of bees will do it regardless of their breed or the size of comb they were raised on. Bees from your backyard, from mine, from Davids, from Barrys, all behaved the same regarding comb construction. They all built small cell sized comb. And it's amazing that they all built just about the same amount of it. Bees don't construct one size worker cell either large or small. For photos of that taper see: http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/comb.htm But they build a range of cell sizes that are well within the range of worker foundation that has been produced in the US. And this is nothing new. Check out what A.I. Root had to say about natural cell size and foundation size: http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/abcxyz.htm What I concluded from his observations can be read at: http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/musin.htm And I have found that all different kinds of bees I think small cell beekeeping works so well because the cell size is a better approximation to the cell size in the core area of the broodnest. This is the area the bees cluster on during the winter and where the first and last brood of the season are raised. I also think the downside associated with getting small cell foundation drawn out are caused by the very poor aproximation it provides for the rest of a natural broodnest with its larger sized cells. If bees have been artifically enlarged and only construct one kind of worker cell, then all that Dee has written, about getting bees back to their natural size/state, is essential to experience the benefits of small cell. But if bees naturally construct cells within the small cell size range, then much of the field management associated with small cell beekeeping which negates the effect of enlarged bees is not necessary. I've had both of these experiences. And prefer the latter. My field management is not plagued with problems of getting small cell comb drawn, comb rotations, regressing bees, areas of influence, etc. Or on the other hand, it isn't plagued by slow spring build, poor overwintering, and no mite tolerance, etc., either. The Lusby's were the first to stress the importance of cell size to colony health and function. To those of us who have tried it, it's no longer a question of IF bees on small cell size comb can prosper and survive. But I think beekeepers can avoid much of downside if the HOWS and the WHYS are considered. Dee and I respectively differ on these. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:24:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bee Size vs Cell Size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think small cell beekeeping works so well because the cell size is a > better approximation to the cell size in the core area of the > broodnest. > > This is the area the bees cluster on during the winter and where the > first and last brood of the season are raised. I also think the downside > associated with getting small cell foundation drawn out are caused by > the very poor aproximation it provides for the rest of a natural > broodnest with its larger sized cells. > But if bees naturally construct cells within the small cell size > range, then much of the field management associated with small cell > beekeeping which negates the effect of enlarged bees is not necessary. What puzzles me is that the above seems -- unless I misunderstand -- to suggest that a natural broodnest does pretty much what the small cell is claimed to do, regardless of the bees chosen. If this is so, then why the disppearance of feral colonies everywhere? allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::