From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:46:16 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 257AC49035 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDJv012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0411D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 97309 Lines: 2143 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:38:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Varroa and sucrocide. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I wanted to ask folks about their experience with sucrocide this year. I applied sucrocide in August per product instructions and was glad to see an almost complete disappearence of bees with DMV. I am starting to see DMV symptoms again now in November. I would like to continue using sucrocide as it's not toxic to bees or humans. I wondered about its reported up to 97% effectiveness. Have you seen it? Thanks, Waldemar LI, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:02:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: a e Subject: book on arthritis In-Reply-To: <00a101c4cf01$f23f5410$9786bc3e@DellDesk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Bkprs, I have a copy of a book called 'Arthritis and Folk Medicine' by Dr D C Jarvis, published by Fawcett Pubs. Inc., Greenwich, Conn. In 1960. Sincerely, Abbas Robin wrote:... 'Arthritis and Folk Medicine'. This was reprinted in UK in 1962 - I do not know when first published in US. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:00:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christopher Reed Subject: Two-to-One Sugar Syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This time of year sugar syrup is supposed to be mixed at a two-to-one ratio of sugar to water (by weight) which means a gallon of syrup consists of 7.5 LBS. of sugar and 7.5 cups of water. A pound of water is about one pint or 2 cups. I boiled the water in a large pot and stirred in the sugar until it all dissolved. Then I let it cool a few hours before pouring the syrup into a one gallon jar with small holes in the lid. The jar was then inverted and set over the hole in the inner cover of a hive. After a week I noticed the syrup level was down to about 3 quarts remaining. Another week went by and I saw the syrup level had not changed. Removing the lid from the jar revealing a thick layer of sugar had settled out of the syrup and coated the inside of the lid blocking off the holes so the bees could not get syrup out of the jar. What am I doing wrong? Chris Reed Arlington, Virginia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:04:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Sturman Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings (was no subject) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello, I have been keeping bees for about 8 or 9 years and get stung on a regular basis. I was recently diagnosed with arthritis in my wrists and fingers. I, too, always heard that beekeepers don't get arthritis so I was surprised to find out I have it. My condition is not very bad at all, experiencing pain occasionally and after a lot of wrist and hand activity. I started stinging myself on the hands a sting or tow a day and found a tremendous improvement in my comfort level. I also started stinging my 18 year old cat who suffers greatly from arthritis. He now runs around the house with apparently much less pain and a lot more ease of movement than I have seen in him for many years. A few years ago I had taken the Internet Apitherapy course offered by Dr. Stangaciu from Romania. I learned a lot of great information but got no first-hand experience, just a lot of academic learning under my belt. It was from a good friend that I got the tips and advice I needed to get started. I am sure that we will never see good scientific evidence of proven value of bee stinging or other apitherapy methods. The medical and pharmaceutical communities have a lot to lose by endorsing the use of honeybees and their products to alleviate symptoms of these ailments (including arthritis, MS, even cancer). Typically Americans will spend thousands of dollars annually to treat and try to cure these ailments. I feel it's up to we beekeepers to share this age-old wisdom with our loved ones and neighbors. Then again i feel very little discomfort getting stung at this point, while for others (non-beekeepers) it is probably much more painful. Oh well, they'll get used to it too. Best regards, John :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:31:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: FGMO testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I hope we can finally put the issue of FGMO fogging for varroa control to rest. FGMO for varroa control caught my eye early on ( middle 90's) as was cheap and easy. I reported on BEE-L about the S.A.R.E. grant received in Missouri to test FGMO for varroa control in 1998 years ago. FGMO fogging was a complete failure in the 1998 Missouri testing as were the results of the Westlaco testing just reported in the December issue of ABJ. A copy of the Missouri testing of FGMO can be had by calling (573)522-8616 or (573)751-5505 Missouri Dept. of ag. Sustainable Ag. program. The complete FGMO project done in Missouri is published in " Missouri Sustainable Ad Demonstration Award projects 1998-2000" publication. "Assessment of Mineral Oil to control Varroa Mites " (pg. 21) by Matt Higdon Matt is a research entomologist , certified eastern Apiculture society master beekeeper & also a certified master beekeeper by the University of Nebraska program . In this months American Bee Journal (Dec. 2004 pg.921) the Westlaco USDA-ARS bee lab has done *almost the same tests* as were done (by three longtime beekeepers under a 1998 SARE grant) in Missouri in 1998. The Westlaco Bee Lab 2004 grant was from the National Honey Board. The only difference: In 1998 the chemical control used was Apistan and in 2004 the chemical used was Checkmite. >From the December issue of the American Bee Journal: "Evaluation of Food grade Mineral Oil for Varroa Mite Control" by Elzen, Cox & Jones. Conclusion from pg. 923: "The data indicates FGMO fogging of hives is of no benefit in controlling varroa populations or improving the overall health of the colony during the test period." Varroa mite load in fact increased during the FGMO treatment period which is EXACTLY what happened in Missouri in 1998. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:25:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: FGMO testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob and all, I know of a man in Phoenix that has 150 hives. He treats 75 with FGMO and 75 with powdered sugar and garlic powder. He has been doing this for 3 years without mites. I feel he is telling the truth about not having any mites. I did not treat with anything except FGMO in the Spring and this fall. I have seen very little sign of mites. I did a wash in August and only found 3 or 4 mites in the pan. I treated Spring of 2003 with Apistan and in the Fall of 2003 with Check-mite. Lionel North Ala. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:55:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Reddell Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041124134024.02061170@bluemoonfarm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:04 AM 11/24/2004, you wrote: > I, too, always heard that beekeepers don't get arthritis so I was >surprised to find out I have it. John, I think your post on this subject reflects a misconception. As I understand it, bee stings do not PREVENT arthritis, but rather alleviate symptoms. My wife does not work the bees, but we have experimented with stings on her hands where she is mildly arthritic, and she reports a definite and immediate positive effect. I do not have arthritis, but from my readings over the years, it seems that beekeepers with arthritis report temporary improvements during the months of the year when they are actively working bees and getting stung. This seems to match your experience. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:12:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: FGMO testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In this months American Bee Journal (Dec. 2004 pg.921) the Westlaco > USDA-ARS bee lab has done *almost the same tests* as were done (by > three longtime beekeepers under a 1998 SARE grant) in Missouri in > 1998. > "The data indicates FGMO fogging of hives is of no benefit in > controlling varroa populations or improving the overall health of the > colony during the test period." I don't know if any one - or two - studies really proves anything. I see all the time that somebody did a study, and that, all of a sudden, we are supposed to change our diet completely. HOWEVER, if we don't get around to reading the article this month, no matter, because another study will come out a week or two later saying the opposite. "No benefit" is pretty strong. What about "Alternative Varroa Control Experiment American Bee Journal - September, 2003 by PATTI J. ELZEN, Ph.D USDA-ARS Weslaco, TX" http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/abjsep2003.htm ? That article includes this quote: " As I have stated elsewhere, the idea of combining multiple tactics for varroa control is one of the best long-term strategies for pesticide use reduction, minimization of resistance, and environmental safety (to bees and humans). The value of 69.4% reduction is quite acceptable when used in coordination with another control tactic; here as Bob chose, of a partially-resistant bee line. " Personally, the only conclusion I have been able to reach about FGMO is that it works at least a bit, and often more than a bit, at least some of the time, and some places. For most beekeepers, given their schedules, their climates, their habits, etc. it won't work well enough to provide complete control, but I think it has some benefit, and if it does, then, saying "no benefit" is misleading. Anyhow, from what I saw at Beesource, the people claiming to use FGMO successfully all measured mite drops and monitored their bees, and some used other controls, too. I think that almost nobody will try to argue that FGMO is as effective as Apistan or Checkmite+ (when they worked), but I also think that nobody has proven that FGMO, or other oil treatments, including those from Italy, don't help at all. I suspect they do, and, given the lack of alternatives some people are facing, FGMO might help a bit -- IF THEY MONITOR BEFORE, DURING, AND AFTER, and don't assume they can just treat and then walk away. allen Wishing everyone a good Thanksgiving from Rhode Island A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:10:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <200411250358.iAP3pTid009515@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday 24 November 2004 10:55 pm, Michael Reddell wrote: > At 11:04 AM 11/24/2004, you wrote: > > I, too, always heard that beekeepers don't get arthritis so I was > >surprised to find out I have it. > > John, ... > My wife does not work the bees, but we have experimented with > stings on her hands where she is mildly arthritic, and she reports a > definite and immediate positive effect. ... Bee sting therapy works for artheristis relief because it is a histamine and chronic inflamatory. By being stung in the general location, the tissues swell in the area causing immediate relief from artheritic conditions. The swelling is chronic, though the swelling is relieved slowly as the venoms are finally processed by the body. It takes several months for the swelling to completely go away, even though it only visibly takes a few days for the visible swelling to "go down". The continued use of bee stings creates a tolerant environment, this is the reason why the dosages need to be increased with each treatment and a period of abstainence from the therapy to allow the therapy to continue having beneficial effects without having to increase the dosage to lethal levels. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:28:48 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Allergic reaction? In-Reply-To: <000301c4d2a4$f86a92e0$6964a8c0@Nemo> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello, I'm a new beekeeper, 47 years old, 7 months of beekeeping, no known allergies. After about 2 months, I started itching in the inside elbows, then extending to the neck area, very localized. It went away, but recently is back - same areas, inside elbow, neck, but now has extended to the arms and face. I have almost no reaction to stings such as swelling, but am wondering if the itching is an indication of a gradual increasing reaction to bee stings. Before heading to the allergist, I'd like to know if any one else experienced something like this? Thanks, Howard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:47:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: Allergic reaction? In-Reply-To: <200411250540.iAP4lPmj012700@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday 25 November 2004 12:28 am, Howard McGinnis wrote: > Before heading to the allergist, I'd like to know if any one > else experienced something like this? When I get stung, the greater area above and below the sting itches for a couple of days. Perhaps you are getting stung often enough for the itching to seem persistent? If I get stung on the back of my hand, the itching goes halfway up the back of my forearm. If I get stung on arm near my shoulder, the itching goes down almost to my elbow. If I get stung on the ear (which happened once), my whole ear itches. -- Scot Mc Pherson scot@linuxfromscratch.org http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:behomet@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 04:45:56 -0500 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: Allergic reaction? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I get stung numerous time I also break out in various areas and itch. I was told that it was "the hives" and I took antihistamine tablets that I get at the drug store and it calmed the itching and rash. Hope this helps. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:34:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: FGMO testing In-Reply-To: <000301c4d2a4$f86a92e0$6964a8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: >> (the study)"The data indicates FGMO fogging of hives is of no benefit in >> controlling varroa populations or improving the overall health of the >> colony during the test period." > > > I don't know if any one - or two - studies really proves anything. When two different groups test and arrive at the same conclusions, and when many who try it do not have the advertised results, it does prove something. I have never seen a scientific study that shows FGMO, alone, works. In fact, that has been the one constant from when it first came to our attention. There is lots of anecdotal evidence that says it works great. But there was lots of anecdotal evidence that said menthol cough drops worked in controlling tracheal mites. I know, I tried them when I first started keeping bees. They did not. The problem with FGMO, in my opinion, has always been that it does not work when tried alone, with no additives or special hive configuration. Most of the success with FGMO is when it is used in conjunction with other know mite controls. Check the archives and you will see that every time it was shown not to work, in each of its many different application methods, a new method was announced. The latest FGMO iteration uses Thymol, a known Varroa control. So why not just use proven Varroa controls alone, like Thymol, and eliminate the cost and labor of using FGMO? Because anecdotal evidence trumps science almost every time, especially on the Internet. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:25:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: FGMO testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When two different groups test and arrive at the same conclusions, and > when many who try it do not have the advertised results, it does prove > something. > > I have never seen a scientific study that shows FGMO, alone, works. In > fact, that has been the one constant from when it first came to our > attention. Well, I have seen a number of studies and personal observations over the years that do show increased mite drops using oils, and, of course there is the article I mentioned near the bottom in my article previous to this, but perhaps you never got that far down before hitting, "reply". I don't know why anyone would insist on imposing a black and white perspective on things. I certainly does not improve dialogue. FWIW, I have spent a lot of time in one-on-one discussions with USDA bee scientists, and discussed oils and other topics with them. In my recollection, none of them was foolish enough to make categorical statements. They know that it is impossible to prove a negative. They will say, however, "in our observations", and "under the conditions we examined", etc. etc. Most are sceptical that FGMO will prove to be effective enough for mainstream use, and that is what they are really seeking -- a one-size-fits-all solution, much like Apistan and Checkmite+, or that elusive tolerant bee, not a subtle, time-consuming, operator dependant method. Most of the objections I have heard were with the dosage, application, the frequency and other factors. No one disputes that FGMO kills mites, but everyone -- including the strongest proponents -- will hasten to state that using oils is not simple and that constant monitoring is advised to verify 1.) that it is working, and 2.) that other measures do not need to be used in addition. I think everyone who cares has looked at my varroa results. Judging by *my* recent experience, all anyone needs to do is use one Apistan in Spring, and not treat for 18 months. Think so? I don't, but someone will jump to conclusions. Also, oxalic drizzling is a known effective treatment, but, even in the hands of a well-known researcher, the varroa load tripled in one of my hives after treatment, and increased in the others. The answers are NOT simple. Let's not try to impose a simple template on varroa observations, and let's not, by being dogmatic, drive away all the people who have and do use FGMO. The only way we are going to be able to claim to be an Informed Discussion is by listening politely and patiently to all points of view. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 06:20:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Crystalized Sugar Syrup In-Reply-To: <200411250505.iAP4lPkD012700@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Chris Reed wrote: Removing the lid from the jar revealing a thick layer of sugar had settled out of the syrup and coated the inside of the lid blocking off the holes so the bees could not get syrup out of the jar. What am I doing wrong? I boiled the water in a large pot and stirred in the sugar until it all dissolved. Chris, you should not have boiled the water. Just get the water warm and then stir in the sugar until all that will dissolve has dissolved. Then decant off the liquid into your feeder jars. When you boiled the water the solution became supersaturated and when cooled the excess sugar crystallized out. Scrape out the crystals in your feeder and the remaining syrup should feed out before it crystallizes again, if the bees are feeding. Mike __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:30:44 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings (was no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Scot Mc Pherson" > Bee sting therapy works for arthritis relief because it is a histamine and chronic inflamatory. " An item in UK's Beecraft mag, Dec 2004, says " Reasearchers in South Korea have indicated that mellitin, a powerful anti-inflammatory and the principle peptide in bee venom, could be the agent behind venom's anti-arthritic effects." Does that seem likely? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:05:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: FGMO testing In-Reply-To: <001501c4d30b$58a780d0$6964a8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I do not know why I am taking the risk to jump in the arena. Just for the fun of pleasant debates I guess... :-) It appears FGMO efficiency quadrature will not be solved today. Yet I have a question in my mind since 3 years about it : How does FGMO fogging work ? The last hypothesis I remember was that droplets prevent varroas from breathing. If so, why results seems to vary so much from one test to another ? Adding another anecdote to the pile : I have measured varroas on oily coroplast every 24h before fogging for 3 days and then 5 hrs, 12 hrs, and 24 hrs after fogging. I have not measured any significativ increase of fallen mites with FGMO alone. But it was just me, doing a couple of tests on a couple of hives. I do not claim for any conclusion. But I am wondering if struggling is the real mechanism. And if they can't breath because of FGMO, why bee larvea can ? Hervé Qc, Canada www.emelys.com PS: as per litterature, and as you noticed, AO drizzling is known to work when there is no brood, applied by a scientist or non scientist... ;-) Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:02:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: FGMO testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hervé Logé" <> How does FGMO fogging work ? The last hypothesis I remember was that droplets prevent varroas from breathing. Greetings, I purchased a Burgess fogger this summer to see how this technique worked. I am not sure how other people find it, but it was working like a smoke bomb. It certainly prevented me from breathing. It appeared that the oil was so hot it was close to burning and there was no control of the volume. I sold at half price to a guy who wanted to make lots of smoke for a hallowen party! Peter now thinking of an ultrasonic fog generator :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:38:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: FGMO testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Adding another anecdote to the pile : I have measured > varroas on oily coroplast every 24h before fogging for > 3 days and then 5 hrs, 12 hrs, and 24 hrs after > fogging. I have not measured any significativ increase > of fallen mites with FGMO alone. Yeah. That's the thing that makes me wonder. Why is it that some report results, and others do not see any effect? Is it the timing, the method, the actual oil used, the fogger, imagination, coincidence...??? > PS: as per litterature, and as you noticed, AO > drizzling is known to work when there is no brood, > applied by a scientist or non scientist... ;-) That was the problem, all right, and maybe timing has something to do with the oil reports. I don't know, but I do know that some credible people have claimed to see measurable results with FGMO. Many have not. Anyhow, I continue to be amazed at how, "A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest. La la la, etc..." A person can spend some time at http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000289.html and http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/abjjan2003.htm and hunt around a bit and still wonder. Perhaps the older messages have been trimmed, but maybe not. At one time, seemed there were many there who measured. Maybe some day, I'll try FGMO, but so far, I have not seen a need to do so. In the meantime, I'll listen closely to any reports that include observations that are more quantitative than, "I got a crop and my bees look good". allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:49:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Arthritis & bee stings (was no subject) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Reasearchers in South Korea > have indicated that mellitin, a powerful anti-inflammatory and the > principle > peptide in bee venom, could be the agent behind venom's anti-arthritic > effects." > Does that seem likely?" Well, if mellitin triggers the release of of ACTH and Cortisone, one could reasonably assume so. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:09:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 24 Nov 2004 to 25 Nov 2004 (#2004-317) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good morning folks. It is past midnight in Virginia. Belated Thanksgiving to all. Please bear with me, (please do not feel tempted to "quit half down the page". 1. I am sure that not everybody knows the science of aeronautics but all of us fly without questioning why airplanes fly. 2. automobiles and trains are great forms of transportation and practically two thirds of the people in modern day use automobiles to travel from place to place without really knowing how their mechanism work. 3. we consume tons of packed nutrients prepared by and with very complicated machinery. I am sure that not every citizen that consume them knows the intricacies of how and why they are prepared that way. 4. I could go on for hours citing analogies in that venue. I hope that you will understand what I have tried to say with them. Read on. 5. Spanish adage: "the worse kind of blind person is the one who does not wish to see." Now lets try to explain the mechanism and theory of why "FGMO works." There are many books and papers that explain the anatomy and biology of mites. I have explained in practically all my writings about how FGMO interferes with the biology of mites. I am fully conscious that any theory or thought that I propose is going to be looked at with a very fine lens, so I would not dare "invent" any concept which is not based on scientific knowledge acquired from many years of schooling and literary research. It would take too much space and time to describe the whole process here. I suggest that those of you who may be inclined to disagree with the concept of effectiveness of FGMO to read my posting on www.beesource.com and to read the manual provided by Burgess with the Propane Insect Fogger. Thermal fogging is very effective not only against honey bee mites but also against a wide variety of mites and similar parasites. I have explained explicitly that FGMO kills mites but does not affect honey bees. It is based on differential size of their breathing mechanism. FGMO effectively blocks the breathing mechanism of mites but it does NOT block that of honey bees if applied in minute quantities (as per instructed in the literature using the fogger or as per instructions for emulsion-soaked cords or paper towels. I have explained the mecahnism of actgion FGMO in an article soon to be published for the benefit of those who wish to know how. At this poit I wonder: Dear readers: How many of us insist that doctors explain to us how and why the medicines they prescribe work? The manufacturing laboratories explain, but how many of us read them, and if we read them are we capable of understanding the mechanism of action? Yet, we all trust our learned colleagues in the medical field. Why is it so hard for some to understand medicine when applied by a veterinary doctor (University of Penna, 1962) with a proven record of training and practice, professional beekeeper, retired from two high ranking US government careers? I have also taught children in school for whom I have a special regard. I remember some of them saying to me: "Give me a break." Happy holidays and God bless. Dr. Rodriguez -- Proclaiming The Lord´s expression and creation with our honey bees. __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: FGMO testing In-Reply-To: <002a01c4d361$01fb4770$6964a8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > Maybe some day, I'll try FGMO, but so far, I have not seen a need to do so. > In the meantime, I'll listen closely to any reports that include > observations that are more quantitative than, "I got a crop and my bees > look > good". The primary reason I have been wary of FGMO is I did read all there was about it when it first came on the scene and did try it according to the directions. The data presented was excellent and presented a valid approach to Varroa control. It did not work. That was affirmed in a scientific study of the method. Then the application method was changed. A major test was made by southern US beekeepers. It did not work. I got several personal emails on the problems encountered. Several years ago, a notable University Professor beekeeper who publishs regularly in Bee Culture tried the next iteration, the fogger, and gave it up since it did not work. The latest studies confirm his findings. I have seen much written about how it kills mites, but the current recommendation is to use a screened bottom. You do get mite drop so the screened bottom helps in Varroa control. But what is the reason for a screened bottom if it kills the mite? It should work just fine with a solid bottom. I have also seen that mites do survive and are not killed. This fits the evidence of all the trials I have seen, including the latest studies where the mite load was the same as if not treated by anything. (There are many different controls which use mite drop and screened bottoms. All are labor intensive and not viable commercially.) Add to this all the anecdotal evidence from beekeepers who tried it for a time and either gave it, or beekeeping, up. I know of no one in my beekeeping world who now uses it. If it does what it is suppose to do, common sense says it would be all over the beekeeping world, but all I know who tried it gave it up. As far as being negative, I am more than happy if I am proven wrong. That has happened in the past and I am willing to learn. Dennis M has moved me well into the small cell camp because of his disciplined testing and willingness to show where there are problems. His report are exceptional in their detail. Another reason I agree with him is my experience with 5.0 foundation which was very good but not perfect. I like to experiment, especially since I did not want to publish anything in our State newsletter of new techniques other than from published studies- I was the editor- which I had not tried myself and could speak of my findings. Which is why I tested FGMO. When the preponderance of evidence is negative, I find it difficult to be other than negative. I could not, in good conscience, recommend FGMO. There are cheaper and better methods of mite drop with screened bottoms plus the use of Thymol for Varroa control. Plus, do we not owe it to new members of the list to state our view and allow our views to be challenged so the new member can arrive at some idea of the truth? Or at least understand a method may not be the Holy Grail of beekeeping. That, to me, is one of the best features of this list, compared to others. A search of the archives shows that you share that view and challenge ideas presented here often and with vigor. I appreciate that, and it is expressed well in your final sentence. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:55:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: FGMO testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have never seen a scientific study that shows FGMO, alone, works. In > fact, that has been the one constant from when it first came to our > attention. > Because anecdotal evidence trumps science almost every time, especially > on the Internet. > > Bill Truesdell Hi Bill and All, I see a use for FGMO. Its not that it kill the mites , but it does make the bees clean each other. Hence , it will invoke the need for hygienic behavior. It could be useful with good hygienic stock in grooming the mites off. Fogging FGMO will get the bees cleaning each other and has been observed. For the rest of it I'm in agreement with Bill. Best Regards Roy :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:04:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Allergic reaction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howard. On page 17 of July 2004 Bee Culture magazine is an interesting = article by Mark Winston on allergies and beekeeping. It contains the = statement: " About 30% of commercial beekeepers surveyed reported = chronic respiratory problems, including ear, eye, nose and throat = irritation, allergic responses, and difficulty breathing." There is an = allergen found in bee larvae and adults and in varroa mites as well. The = study came out in a journal titled "Allergy." Hope this helps. Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:20:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: FGMO fogging mechanism In-Reply-To: <64E23593.6B34BEB8.023E1E12@netscape.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks four your answere. > 1. I am sure that not everybody knows the > science of aeronautics but all of us fly without > questioning why airplanes fly. But it is quite interesting to understand why it does fly. Especially when you are the pilote ! > 5. Spanish adage: "the worse kind of blind > person is the one who does not wish to see." The same adage in French : Il n'y a pas plus aveugle que celui qui ne veut pas voir. But those kinds of blinds usually do not ask questions about what they do not want to see, do they ? > Now lets try to explain the mechanism and theory > of why "FGMO works." I suggest that those of you > who may be inclined to disagree with the concept of > effectiveness of FGMO to read my posting on > www.beesource.com and to read the manual provided by > Burgess with the Propane Insect Fogger. I read both. I regularly read posts on FGMO digital board on beesource and read articles on beesource about FGMO. I have the Burgess Fogger and read the full manual 2 years ago. The manual is specifically written for A GIVEN insecticide. At that time, taking manual values about droplets size for FGMO seemed to me an extrapolation of the manual. Am I wrong ? FGMO > effectively blocks the breathing mechanism of mites > but it does NOT block that of honey bees if applied > in minute quantities This is what I understood from beesource. But why can YOUNG bee LARVAE breath in spite of FGMO droplets and the size of their breathing system (lack of the specifi English vocabulary here, sorry)? > Dear readers: How many of us insist that > doctors explain to us how and why the medicines > they prescribe work? I do. More than once. In fact, it is their duty to explain in simple words mechanism basis, advantage and drawbacks of the medecine or of different possible treatments. Your health is yours and decision is yours, as per doctors or dentist or any professionnal ethic. Why is it so hard > for some to understand medicine when applied by a > veterinary doctor (University of Penna, 1962) with a > proven record of training and practice, professional > beekeeper, retired from two high ranking US > government careers? I fundamentally disagree. Even greatest genius did mistaken times to times (Einstein constant of the univers, Voltaire about wars in Canada ;-)), etc.). Prophets ask to be believed for their divin chosen person, experts present reasonnable interpretation of data offered to people questions. I have never seen any duty diligence review based solely on promoter's names. I can understand it is tiring to be again and again questionned but I am afraid it this the price for beeing the flag holder. Finally, I still do not understand why mites FGMO struggling by FGMO fogging does not lead to an immediate increase of mites fallen (for all testers) nor why it does not prevent young bee larvae to breath. I sincerely wish FGMO would have worked for me. But I am still waiting for god(')s signs. Respectfully submitted Hervé Worse than St-Thomas, gods (yours and others) forgive me. Vous manquez d’espace pour stocker vos mails ? Yahoo! Mail vous offre GRATUITEMENT 100 Mo ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.benefits.yahoo.com/ Le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger est arrivé ! Découvrez toutes les nouveautés pour dialoguer instantanément avec vos amis. A télécharger gratuitement sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:25:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: FGMO testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When the preponderance of evidence is negative, I find it difficult to > be other than negative... Plus, do we not owe it to new members of > the list to state our view and allow our views to be challenged so the > new member can arrive at some idea of the truth?.. It is one thing to relate our experience and the results of our own research, and caution others to be careful, and another entirely to claim omniscience. There are ways to express disagreement that are constructive, and encourage an exchange of ideas, and ways that simply drive the discussion elsewhere. If we are to be at all honest (and scientific) about this and other topics of which we are sceptical, then we must admit that were unable to come up with any convincing proof that a given method works, not trumpet categorically that it doesn't work, because -- in truth -- we only know what we know. No more. Some subscribe the philosophy that if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck.... and I can understand that this approach can work in a system where we are certain that we know all the possible birds. My position, however, is that we know damnably little about bees and mites, and that we are therefore very vulnerable to errors when we extrapolate. > A search of the archives shows that you share that view and challenge > ideas presented here often and with vigor. I appreciate that, and it > is expressed well in your final sentence. We are in agreement to the point where anyone claims to know the unknowable. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:26:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christopher Reed Subject: Two-to-One Sugar Syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem I have experienced using a two-to-one ratio (by weight) of sugar to water is that the sugar tends to settle out of the syrup after the syrup has been sitting on top of a hive for a while. In response to my question about what I was doing wrong when mixing up sugar syrup in a two-to-one ratio of sugar to water, I received a suggestion that I heat the water less and stir in the sugar until all that will disolve has disolved. I believe following this suggestion would result in my using less sugar. I have no doubt that using less sugar will solve the problem, but that makes me wonder if it is possible to make sugar syrup in a two-to-one ration of sugar to water without the sugar settling out of the solution. I have heard many beekeepers recommend feeding syrup of a two-to-one ratio in autumn. How do they make a syrup with that much sugar and avoid the problem I have had with the sugar settling out? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 08:27:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: HarrisonRW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Two-to-One Sugar Syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/26/2004 11:23:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, Reedchrisj@AOL.COM writes: > How do they make a syrup with that much > sugar and avoid the problem I have had with the sugar settling out? > This is how I make five gallons at a time and never have a problem with the sugar settling out. I have a hand held spay attachment that hooks up to the bathroom shower attachment. I add the sugar to a five gallon restaurant pail that has graduated markings on the side of it for measuring. I then spray in the hot ( 110-115 degrees) water mixing it with a very large hand held bakers whisk (the whisk is about 2 1/2 feet long). I have mixed a lot of sugar over the years this way and have never had a problem with the sugar settling. Regards, Ralph :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 08:48:13 -0500 Reply-To: swilson1@hsc.edu Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Susi Wilson Subject: Re: Two-to-One Sugar Syrup Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Chris, I had the same problem (in VA) and have gone to HSCS. Want to share an order? I'm in Farmville. Be glad to go in with you and others on a full truckload. The only way I could keep my 2:1 from crystallization was to add more water. HFCS has solved that...at a cost. If I share a full truckload the cost is less. The convienience is very addicting. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:18:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Two-to-One Sugar Syrup In-Reply-To: <78.670cf2fd.2ed9dace@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is an article I wrote years ago on this subject for the Maine State beekeepers, so you will see what kind of stuff I inflicted on my readers. They forgave me. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine One of the great questions of our age has finally been answered- how much sugar do I use with what amount of water to get a 1:1 or 2:1 sugar syrup for feeding to my bees. Heloise has the solution (there is a pun there) from a “leading sugar manufacturer”. 1 lb. sugar = 2 1/4 cups 2 lb. sugar = 4 1/2 cups 4 lb. sugar = 9 cups 5 lb. sugar = 11 1/4 cups 1 lb. water = 2 cups So, if you want a 2:1 syrup for fall feeding, it would be one 5 lb. bag of sugar to 5 cups of water. To really make it simple, here are the amounts for each: 2:1 sugar syrup 2 1/4 cups sugar to 1 cup water 5 lb. bag of sugar to 5 cups water 1:1 sugar syrup 2 1/4 cups sugar to 2 cups (1 pint) water 5 lb. bag of sugar to 10 cups (5 pints) water You should not boil the sugar/water mix together for any length of time because it changes chemically and has been found not to be good for overwintering bees because some will get dysentery and die. You do not notice the effect in the summer, because of the buildup of bees which replace the ones that die. Also do not use cream of tartar to keep the syrup from crystallizing. It also causes dysentery and will kill your bees. The best way to make syrup is to boil some water and pour it over the sugar and mix it until the sugar dissolves. There may be some crystals left, but the bees and you can live with a little imperfection. After all, our friends put up with us and we are not perfect. The bees will not hold it against you, especially the Buckfast who are very forgiving, due to their monastery upbringing. With the 2:1 syrup, you might find it is a little too thick and crystallizes out. I usually use about 5 1/2 cups of water and it seems to be a better mix. But I was never very good about following directions. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 11:42:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: FGMO testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/25/2004 10:48:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, keating@DESTINATION.CA writes: I purchased a Burgess fogger this summer to see how this technique worked. I I have another piece of pest control equipment that would be better suited to this task. It is a "Microgen Microinjector". It is a wall void fogger used to treat cockroaches in cracks and crevices, carpenter ants in wall voids and yes, occasionally feral honey bees. It looks like a small stainless steel suit case with hoses leading to a trigger controlled wand with a tiny tip on it. It has an air compressor built into it, that mixes what ever material you put into the revisor with air and breaks it down to a 5 micron droplet. It was made to be used with a vegetable oil base pesticide, however it will take just about any thin liquid. The Microinjector is adjustable, it can fog the inside of a wall through an opening as small as a nail hole, or lay out a cloud across a large room. It needs a 110 outlet (or a good power inverter) to run and it is a little heavy. In the case of treating carpenter ants, I would fill the revisor with a .5% peritherin solution and "inject" the suspected wall through what ever nail hole that was available. After a short while I would see the smoky cloud "leak" from cracks and crevices along the wall, eventually getting into the carpenter ant nest. The 5 micron droplet is small enough to enter the ants spiracles, putting the insecticide directly into the ant. A 5 micron droplet will also cling to the hair of a honey bee. My Microinjector cost $1,500 ten years ago. I have seen them on Ebay for $200. I have no idea what they go for new today or if Microgen ever came out with a lighter model. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:47:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alex Mather Subject: RPM speed for creaming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an older 400lb stainless steel bottling tank that needs the gears = replaced on the paddle turning mechanism. Currently, as the honey starts = to cream, the gears on top of the tank will slip, grind away and drop = filings to into the honey. The old gears where fed off a one half hp = motor and connect to a large pulley . I would like to change all this to = a directly coupled motor and a worm gear box . The worm gear box will = change the drive 90 degrees allowing for the connection of the stainless = steel stirring paddles in the tank. My question is, what is the optimum = ball park rpm to cream the honey? I would run this a couple hours each = day and fill containers when the honey starts thicken. Alex in Ontario :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:10:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Creamed Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fritz, in Germany, makes what I consider the best honey creamer available. Theirs run at 31-33 RPM, and the creamed honey can be bottled right after mixing. However, I know someone else using a homemade method that runs 100 RPM or better, this incorporates a lot of air into the honey. They let it sit overnight before bottling and avoid bottling the foam that then sits on top. Regardless, I sure wouldn't wait more than 48 hours before bottling or it might not flow out of the tank! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturers of Ross Rounds Comb Honey Equipment, Sundance Pollen Traps and Custom Printer of Sundance Labels. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:05:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: RPM speed for creaming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Alex & All, Your tank sounds like the old 40 gallon Walter Kelley tank. If so you can still order gears. 1-800-233-2899 With a new set of gears and using a food approved grease you should not have a metal grinding problem *if* you reduce your motor RPM. When turned at the correct RPM those gears last lifetimes . Turned too fast and without grease maybe a season. 1725 RPM is the proper RPM for cream honey in my opinion on the tank you are using. A half horse motor of higher RPM turns the product too fast , would wear the gears if not properly lubricated and could put air in the creamed honey and create foam on top. Many sideline beekeepers prefer to make smaller batches the old way rather than one large batch made in the tank you are using because of air and foam the tank you are using causes many times. Hobart restaurant mixers make wonderful creamed honey because they are powerful and turn at a low RPM. I can make a tank of creamed honey using stainless tank and paddles if not in a hurry and only using the paddles as absolutely needed *without the foam layer on top of the finished product*. A small amount of heat helps in my opinion. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:14:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: RPM speed for creaming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said; 1725 RPM is the proper RPM for cream honey in my opinion on the tank you are using. A half horse motor of higher RPM turns the product too fast , would wear the gears if not properly lubricated and could put air in the creamed honey and create foam on top. I am not saying the paddle should turn at 1725 RPM but the motor on the Kelley tank should turn at 1725 RPM.( 1/4 to 1/3 HP motor). I am not sure what the final RPM is after reduction on the paddle. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 10:47:27 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Russell Subject: Re: [Bee-L] FGMO testing Comments: cc: J Fischer , Barry Birkey , "Dr.Pedro Rodriguez" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To James W. Hock and all I don't wish to be facetious but this control equipment "Microgen = Microinjector" has it's use and no doubt works well for what it was = designed for. CAUTION: It is well known that many types of oil will kill both bees and = varroa mites when applied as a wet spray. The secret lies in the technology,and protocol in use of FGMO as an = alternative varroa control researched and developed over 11 years by = veterinarian Dr.Pedro P. Rodriguez, not without failure and = perseverance,so simple yet not (or not wanted to be) understood by so = many. =20 Many beekeepers will be vulnerable to try new ideas like James has = suggested and will more than likely suffer heavy bee mortality if not = total destruction of their hives. Dr.Rodriguez's repeated requests for independent trials to his current = protocol has fallen on deaf ears.See J.Fischer's posting on = Beesource.com Bulletin Board's FGMO Forum under misapplication of = FGMO.This is a positive approach. Bob Russell Commercial Beekeeper New Zealand.=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:28:59 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Creamed Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Lloyd Spear" wrote: > Fritz, in Germany, makes what I consider the best honey creamer available. > Theirs run at 31-33 RPM, and the creamed honey can be bottled right after > mixing. > Regardless, I sure wouldn't wait more than 48 hours before bottling or it > might not flow out of the tank! I use a Maxant tank and stirrer running at 30RPM. This works well, although it does not mix the seed honey in very well - I use a creamer to get the seed well distributed vertically through the tank, then set the stirrer to run for 15 minutes, 5 times a day until the honey gets very thick. Then I turn off the stirrer and allow the tankful to set. When I need to bottle, I warm it until it can be stirred and bottled (typically 100-104F, depending on the honey). If you bottle too soon (i.e. jsut after it is seeded) then you run the risk of frosting; I can say that I have had no frosting with my method and still have two jars of perfect set honey from the first batches that I made with the Maxant tank in 1997. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 21:37:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: FGMO Use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell writes: So why not just use proven Varroa controls alone, like Thymol, and eliminate the cost and labor of using FGMO? The philosophy here is that if it works mites can be controlled during the honey flow, published lab test indicate there is no contamination of honey. Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 21:06:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: RPM speed for creaming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a point to ponder Alex but an AC motor will develop maximum torque at full RPM. Since the typical fractional motor is 1725 rpm make sure your gearbox has sufficient turndown ratio to achieve 30 or so rpm while allowing the motor to run at max rpm. Kent Stienburg Ontario :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:27:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: FGMO testing Hi Guys, My first move away from the strips involved using FGMO in its first iteration. I dribbled it on the top bars and eventually ended up using an FGMO impregnated blue shop towel. At the time, my mindset was quite different than it is now. I was looking for a magic bullet that would kill all mites...end of problem. Changing from that mindset to an IPM approach is a big change. I don't think most beekeepers are there yet. It takes lots of work and I sometimes wondered whether my beekeeping had swithched to mitekeeping :>) My experience with FGMO was a positive step. I found that varroa levels wouldn't increase with it's continued use. A hive with a certain varroa mite load could be maintained there. But if a treatment was missed, etc. mite levels would rapidly increase. For a hive with a low level of infestation, PMS would be a long way off, but for a hive with high levels, PMS and colony loss could occur in months. The 60s% effectiveness, that the earlier study showed for FGMO, was about what I found in practice. The biggest change in focus, from a strip approach to IPM, requires knowing the mites, their cycles and certainly one's hives infestation levels. I suspect that some beekeepers are trying to manage bees using FGMO with a strip mentality. The only fault I can find with the latest test is its short duration. Six weeks or two brood cycles can be very deceptive with a soft approach. And just where those weeks occur in the season can greatly impact the percentage of phoretic mites available and effected by FGMO. As a commercial beekeeper, at that time, FGMO didn't meet my needs. It was too labor intensive. Was too soft. And, although FGMO may be underneath the radar as a food contaminant, I find it hard to believe that putting that much petroleum product in the hive doesn't contaiminate hive products. It's a far cry from organophosphates, but most petroleum products have some health risks associated with them. It might not remain under the radar forever. Some Thoughts Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 19:29:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathleen Darrell Subject: Re: Two-to-One Sugar Syrup In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 26, 2004, at 9:26 PM, Christopher Reed wrote: > The problem I have experienced using a two-to-one ratio (by weight) of > sugar > to water is that the sugar tends to settle out of the syrup after the > syrup > has been sitting on top of a hive for a while. How do they make a > syrup with that much > sugar and avoid the problem I have had with the sugar settling out? > I believe that your original idea of bringing the water just to the > boiling point is correct. Remove pan from heat then add sugar, > stirring until its dissolved. I replaced those dumb inverted pails > with an idea gleaned from Bee-L a few years ago. Put the warm syrup > into ziploc bags(I use 945 ml/ 1 quart bags with 750 ml syrup) then > seal. Take them to the beeyard while still warm. Lay the bags(1 or > more to a hive) on top of the frames, use a sharp handi knife to cut a > slit in the side of the bag(now the top). They seldom drip and the > bees take it down in no time. You need a rim(1.5" high) to provide > space above the frames. I cut down my damaged supers to make mediums, > so the cutoffs make good rims. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 01:11:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: [Bee-L] FGMO testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/27/2004 5:59:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, bob.russell@PARADISE.NET.NZ writes: I don't wish to be facetious but this control equipment "Microgen Microinjector" has it's use and no doubt works well for what it was designed for. I agree with you. This devices purpose is to kill insects. Using the wrong material or even misaplication of the "right" material will kill the honey bees. It will put what you feed it into the spirical of the honey bee. I was suggesting it was a better tool for the experiment than the burgess. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 09:27:40 -0500 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland & Dorothy Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: RPM motor speed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: electric motor speed: I have a dual-speed electric motor from an old washing machine on my extractor. A single pole double throw (SPDT) switch selects high or low speed, from the same motor. Used originally to select normal or gentle wash action. Allows me to start out slow with the full frames and then go to full speed at the flip of a switch. No additional belts or gearing to select those two speeds. Might be of interest to a creaming operation as well. Leland Hubbell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:51:39 +0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Creamed Honey In-Reply-To: <200411280502.iAS50pBn025330@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This pop up now and then here on the list. Haven't done so for a couple of years now, so I guess it's time to run it again.. What really is happening is a crystallization of the honey. This is best and easiest done just below 15C. However, honey get very difficult to stir at so low temp, so we usually use a higher temp for mixing the starter in. Up to 27-28C is OK if the honey is coled direct after to below 20C. Stirring large batches of honey for days is a waste of time, the same result will be obtained within a day using a proper starter made as described here: http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/krist-e-nf.htm -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:14:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Two-to-One Sugar Syrup - again? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, I am always amazed at the problems some people give themselves when mixing sugar syrup. If one uses the metric system then it is 2 kg of sugar to one kilo of water. One litre of water weighs one kilo! Hence the metric system! No need to think of cwt. ,stones, pounds and ounces, nor quarts and gallons Imperial or U.S. As for heating the water, it is not really necessary either. I would (before l switched to ready mixed syrup) put 300 litres of water ( a honey barrel and a half) into my tank on the truck and start up a 50mm. gas driven pump which recirculated the water in the tank, then add 15 bags of sugar (40kgs. each). When the last bag was in l would close the tank and go and feed, All the while the pump would be recirculating the syrup. Upon arriving at the yard the mixture would contain no crystals. I had a beekeeping friend visit once and he told me quite categorically that the system could not possibly work. Upon arriving at the first yard he inspected every drop of syrup and to his amazement could detect no crystals. Of course l do not claim credit for this system, it is one l saw a Tegart's in Alberta. I have used the system for frame feeders, top feeders and also barrel feeding without any problems. Now that l purchase syrup, I use "tote"bins on the truck and fill the barrels using just gravity. A little slower than pumping, but l fill two barrels at a time. It's nice to be in the bee yard without all the noise of blowers and pumps etc. Peter. thinking l may have said all this a few years back?? On Nov 26, 2004, at 9:26 PM, Christopher Reed wrote: The problem I have experienced using a two-to-one ratio (by weight) of sugar to water is that the sugar tends to settle out of the syrup after the syrup has been sitting on top of a hive for a while. How do they make a syrup with that much sugar and avoid the problem I have had with the sugar settling out? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:14:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: deealusby1@AOL.COM Subject: So long, farewell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To those on BEE-L: I am sorry for the cross post, but since I felt obligated to replying to to on the Organicslist for others can be aware of the happening, I am also posting it here for your awareness also. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: [BioBee] So long, farewell Date: Saturday 27 November 2004 11:35 pm From: Barry Birkey To: BiologicalBeekeeping@yahoogroups.com BioBee was originally started in Dec. of 2000 in response to a growing interest in small cell discussion. At that time, Dee Lusby was very active on the list and all angles of her methodology and theory were discussed and debated. Now having four years of discussion and experience behind us, it appears there is nothing much new to discuss. Dee has since moved on and created her own list that is more narrow in tolerance in regards to beekeeping practices. Reply: The only thing I have done is stood on ZERO HIVE TREATMENTS AND ARTIFICIAL FOOD AS NO GOOD FOR LONG TERM SUPPORT OF OUR HONEYBEES. YOU WEAN BEES OFF OF DOPES AND ARTIFICIAL FOODS ARE FOR SHORT HAUL ONLY. NOT YEAR AFTER YEAR, AFTER STEALING ALL OF THE YEARS FOOD THE BEES HAVE MADE. THEY DESERVE THIER FAIR SHARE OF THE REWARDS, AND DOPES IN A HIVE ARE KILLING OUR INDUSTRY. IF THIS IS NARROW MINDED, THEN SO BE IT! Also when BioBee started..............it was started with the understanding that it would be a clean list with not helping beekeepers to use dopes, and then essential oils and others things were allowed. The only thing I/we have done is take our bees backon a smaller natural cell size they were upped from with enlargement of combs starting over 100 years ago, and at the same time said no cheating on chemicals, drugs, essential oils, FGMO, and acids, fungicids, etc or what be it for internal hive control. If I am narrow then so be it. There is nothing wrong with rotating in smaller combs and working the misdrawn to the sides/perifery of the broodnest and then up and out. We need food in this country and for our world and bees to do it with, and somehow it has to be clean, and on that I WILL STAND........................................ Barry continues: I feel we have come to a place where there is a lot of rehashing of old discussions and these now tend to get splintered up by cross posting to various bee lists. It's clear that the BioBee email list has run its course and is now time to say goodbye. I will be closing the list down within a week. I am putting my time and effort into expanding the BeeSource website and Bulletin Board where you will still be able to discuss biological beekeeping in a forum there. Reply: I am sorry to hear of BioBee moving on, I wished they could have changed to just talk clean beekeeping and beekeeping in general on how to manage colonies.Also how to use the products of the colony and not waste them for the good of all, for from the propolis much of our medicine started. From honey and from pollen much too for health. From learning about hive construction, much in math relative to navigation and transportation and home building, was given to man. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:30:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Two-to-One Sugar Syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This part has me confused. Could you explain how the side is not the top??? Kathy Cox, Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets Northern California, Italian, 25 hives www.kathycox.frankcox.net In a message dated 11/27/2004 8:28:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, darrells@INTERLOG.COM writes: Lay the bags(1 or > more to a hive) on top of the frames, use a sharp handi knife to cut a slit in the side of the bag(now the top). :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:43:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ALDEN MARSHALL Subject: Re: FGMO testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >D. Murrell writes > As a commercial beekeeper, at that time, FGMO didn't meet my needs. It was > too labor intensive. Was too soft. And, although FGMO may be underneath > the > radar as a food contaminant, I find it hard to believe that putting that > much petroleum product in the hive doesn't contaiminate hive products. > It's > a far cry from organophosphates, but most petroleum products have some > health risks associated with them. It might not remain under the radar > forever. > > Some Thoughts > Dennis > I concur with everything except this last comment. I suppose one could call adulteration contamination? This is the substance ingested for a laxative. Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:25:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: FGMO testing In-Reply-To: <001a01c4d595$601e2c10$2f01a8c0@NEWBLINE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Alden Marshall responded to the following comment: >>D. Murrell writes >>... most petroleum products have some >>health risks associated with them. It might not remain under the radar >>forever. with his following retort: >I concur with everything except this last comment. I suppose one could call >adulteration contamination? This is the substance ingested for a laxative. Maybe, in time, users of honey from some sources might be rushing to the bathroom too often! Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************* * The most formidable weapon against errors of any kind * is reason. * Thomas Paine, 1794 ************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:57:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Baggie feeder (Was: Two-to-One Sugar Syrup) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Could you explain how the side is not the top??? When you place the baggie across the top bars, it lays down on its side. The top and bottom of the bag has less surface area than the front or back side, hence the bag naturally lays down on its side. Whether it lays on the front or backside is depends on whether you say poTAto or poTATo. You cut the slit in the side opposite the one that lays on the top bars. The thing most important to remember is only fill the bag 2/3 to 3/4 full or the syrup will leak out onto your bees. Searching the archinves on "baggie feeder" yields 42 hits, where it is explained quite well. Search BEE-L archives at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:29:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathleen Darrell Subject: Re: Two-to-One Sugar Syrup In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 28, 2004, at 4:30 PM, Kathy E Cox wrote: > This part has me confused. Could you explain how the side is not the > top??? > > Kathy and all Sorry about that! When you lay the bag on top of the frames, the side of the bag is up. Make a slit 2-3 inches long in that side. The bag will hold its shape and thus the syrup. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:33:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: So long, farewell Hi Dee and Everyone, Barry has been the administrator at biobee since it's inception. He also runs www.beesource.com which is much more flexible and user/administrator friendly when compared to the Yahoo based groups. Biobee was really a duplication of effort for him. He has decided to re-focus his efforts at beesource, which is really a supercenter for beekeeping information. Barry's reference to "more narrow in tolerance" refered to your own Organic group. Organic beekeeping is a narrow slice of beekeeping in general, and Dee's organic group is even a narrower slice of organic beekeeping. The "more narrow in tolerance" refers to the range of beekeeping topics and not to anyone in particular. The last time I looked at Organic Groups homepage, at least nine items were on the 'no' list. I think discussion there is define more by what isn't discussed than by what is discussed. Hence the narrower tolerance for discussion, not beekeepers. I would like to thank Barry for contributing his time and energy over the last 4 years. I know that biobee was an important medium for sharing during my small cell experience. But most of that information is now available on all the lists. Anyone can obtain it with a seach. I think it's unfortunate that Barry's simple good bye note was taken so personally. There's no one who has provided a open platform for beekeeping alternatives, especially small cell, than Barry. Take care Barry. I know that you have a life beyond the bees. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::