From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:46:27 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.7 required=2.4 tests=AWL,FUZZY_AMBIEN, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA994903C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDdDJx012145 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0412C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 74281 Lines: 1687 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:43:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: HFCS storage and heating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> tips on liquefying HFCS once >> it has set up in plastic storage tanks? What is the storage life of 55 >> HFCS? Any other HFCS tips appreciated. When we are expecting a load of HFCS, we fill the tank up to the 10% mark with clean (sterile), fresh water, in advance of the delivery. When the warm syrup is added, the water and syrup mix perfectly due to the agitation of filling. The mixture is then at the ideal 2:1 proportion and does not ferment or granulate, even at minus forty degrees. I currently have a 1500 gallon poly tank sitting outside in full sun. We filled it just before I retired, and since I cut down to 35 hives, I only use a few drums a year out of it. The tank has been sitting there, full of syrup, for two years and the HFCS is still water white and fresh - and not in the least granulated. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:50:33 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Wasps (yellowjackets) and recruitment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The manufacturers of a wasp trap (WaspBane) claim that poorly designed traps that allow some wasps to escape will result in those wasps recruiting others to the food source. My understanding is that wasps do not recruit. ('Social Wasps', Robin Edwards, Rentokil Library)) Have they got it wrong, or is there some new work since 'Social Wasps' was published in 1980? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:42:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Nelson Subject: Re: HFCS storage and heating >we fill the tank up to the 10% mark with clean (sterile), fresh water, in >advance of the delivery. >full of syrup, for two years and the HFCS is still water white and fresh - and not in the least granulated. > >allen >A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ I have had the same experience as Allen on this. We pump it off the tanker into closed top plastic 55 gallon barrel. Before we do this water is added to the barrel to a level about 2/3 of the way up to the first seam. The warm syrup coming off the tanker aggitates with the water for a uniform blend. I have held this syrup over for up to 3 years with no granulation, fermentation or spoilage. I have no reason to believe it wouldn't last longer. We use clean, untreated tap water from a domestic well. I am curious about the 'sterile' water Allen uses and how he gets or obtains that much volume. Bob Nelson :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:40:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: HFCS storage and heating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As Allen Dick mentioned, mixing of syrup and water takes place if water is added to the container before the syrup is pumped in. In addition, I drop into the tank a compressed air line with an air gun taped open. I let air pass for an hour after the water/ syrup have been put into the tank. This agitates the whole extremely well - and have as yet no granulation problems. The density of the liquid is so that there is no splashing to the exterior of the container. Peter Manitoba, Canada. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:15:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: HFCS storage and heating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen has posted the following before. I was puzzled then and am puzzled now as we have plenty of trouble in the Midwest with HFCS crystallizing when stored for long. We have in fact done exactly as works for Allen and still had crystallization problems as we always add 10% water before pumping in fructose when a chance exists we will be storing the HFCS. We don't add water in fall when the bees are taking the syrup down fast and we know we will not be storing the syrup. >When we are expecting a load of HFCS, we fill the tank up to the >10% mark with clean (sterile), fresh water, in advance of the delivery. This is common practice in our area and with us but we use tap water. Allen said: The mixture is then at the ideal 2:1 proportion and does not ferment or granulate, even at minus forty degrees. We have less trouble with granulation in mid winter & in summer but see most problems when temps hover near 57 degrees F. I do not for a minute doubt Allen's observations just wonder why we can't seem to be able to duplicate his success in the Midwest? Allen said: The tank has been sitting there, full of syrup, for two years and the HFCS is still water white and fresh - and not in the least granulated. I have never used a 1500 gallon plastic tank in our area because of the problems I have seen others experience. When you add the 10% water the HFCS certainly does not crystallize as fast but even with the 10% water mixture we battle crystallization after a few months. Drop in 3,000 gallon farm heaters has been our only solution. I called a beekeeper which brought a 1500 gallon tank to fill last spring on the flatbed of a 7000 Ford truck. He had added the 10% water before arriving. I will never forget the day as we had allowed for his 1500 gallon tank fill when ordering and when the tanker arrived he was not at the location. We located the beekeeper on his cell phone and he said his truck quit and a wrecker was on the way. We filled our containers and before long the beekeeper arrived on the hook of a wrecker (much to our relief as if he had not showed we would have had to find a place to go with 1500 gallons of HFCS). The problem turned out to be a clogged fuel filter and was fixed on the spot and the truck drove home under its own power. I called the beekeeper today and he said crystallization problems started the next fall. If the 1500 gallon plastic would work for us unheated several of us would pick a few up . Is the water we are using the difference? Different temperatures between the Midwest and Canada? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:16:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: HFCS storage and heating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen has posted the following before. I was puzzled then and am puzzled > now as we have plenty of trouble in the Midwest with HFCS crystallizing > when > stored for long. We have in fact done exactly as works for Allen and > still had > crystallization problems We use only type 55, never type 42, and we always buy the on-spec syrup, since there was a terrible wreck in Western Canada years ago when some beekeepers were sold off-spec HFCS and their bees died off over winter. Apparently type 42 is okay where winters are shorter, but not up here, so we do not even consider it. I wonder if you are using type 42? From what I recall, type 42 is cheaper, but much more prone to granulate. Seems to me that I have heard that 42 is not as good a feed, either, for several reasons. Also, as I recall, type 55, can often still be pumped when it is granulating, since it tends to set soft, especially if diluted. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:43:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: HFCS storage and heating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >We use only type 55, never type 42, and we always buy the on->spec syrup, We only buy the 55 off the tanker from a large bee supply house. I have used plenty of 42 bought locally (but not in the last five years) to feed in spring as the 42 is all we can buy locally. I have fed plenty of off spec along with a a group of three other beekeepers which we got for free from one of the above local suppliers of 42 spec HFCS. The 42 HFCS did granulate fast and we did store in steel 55 gallon drums (plus totes if to be used right away). None of us had any problems and we all felt the savings in cost offset the risk in the around five years we supplimented with the off spec. *Fellow BEE-L people please beware of off spc HFCS as beekeepers have reported problems and bee kills.* Getting rid of off spec HFCS is a big problem for the plants as the syrup can not be run in the drain or put in the land fill. High off spec the beekeeper turned down was shipped to a larger plant for disposel by rail car. The manager of the syrup place was a friend of one of the beekeepers so we did not get any syrup way off spec except a single drum which we returned. Allen said: since there was a terrible wreck in Western Canada years ago when some beekeepers were sold off-spec HFCS and their bees died off over winter. We have never fed off spec to winter on. We bought a semi load of 55 HFCS on a laid on its side semi a couple years ago. The truck was righted and we pulled the drums to the back and hauled home. Even the undamaged tightly sealed drums had the be heated to ungranulate before using. We used the heavily damaged drums first but all were fed within a year. >Apparently type 42 is okay where winters are shorter, but not up >here, so we do not even consider it. Every beekeeper I have ever talked to uses the 55 if he can find the 55. you can add as much water to thin as you feel neccessary in spring. I do thin in spring as the bees take up the thiner version faster when day temps are warm but nights are cold in our area. >I wonder if you are using type 42? Not in over five years since I joined up with a few beekeepers to buy off the tanker. What we see granulation problems with is 55. > From what I recall, type 42 is cheaper, Not in our area when you do the math for content times price. The 42 is within three cents of 55 (most of the time) in our area but we can get the 42 from two different plants every day of the week in totes but not 55 gallon drums. >but much more prone to granulate. (42 type) Sure is! > Seems to me that I have heard that 42 is not as good a feed, either, for several reasons. I think mostly beekeepers opinions. My opinion is 42 works ok in late spring when bees are flying and the syrup is being used within a couple days but I have heard that once set in a drum you can not liquify. I have never had this problem and I have had a quite few drums of solid 42 over the years. An excellent article is in the June 2004 Bee Culture by Dr. Sanford on HFCS. HFCS produced by the acid hydrolysis should be avoided but the process is old technology and not used by either of our local HFCS plants. Beekeepers buying off spec should always ask the process! >Also, as I recall, type 55, can often still be pumped when it is granulating, since it tends to set soft, especially if diluted. I agee and have never seen 55 set as solid as 42 but I keep an eye on all stored HFCS. I use a 3-5 HP pump which will pump the granulating 55 but will burn up belts (if used) after awhile as belts slip when cold HFCS starting to granulate is being pumped with a pump with a 3-5 hp motor on the bee feed truck. The above is from my direct experience. Others may have had different experience. Please share with the list if different! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:54:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Miller Subject: Diatomaceous Earth Anyone have any ideas as to the use of Diatomaceous Earth spread on the ground around beehives as a pest control method for small hive beetle? Has it been studied? Is there anything about the anatomy of the SHB that would prevent this from working? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:40:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Brown Subject: Re: Diatomaceous Earth Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I believe Dave Westervelt (Florida state Bee Inspector)did a study on SHB for the USDA. Some of the things he tested/studied were DE/Borax, and other materials and their effects on the various stages of SHB. The results he related to us at a bee meeting were that the larva were not effected by either material, and in fact the larva could thrive and mature when placed into containers containing the materials. SHB larva skin is extremely tough and DE does not cut through it. -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:35:34 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: Hive beetle drop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With the advent of several nights of cold weather below 30 degrees F here in Georgia, I have now observed numerous dead hive beetles dropping through my screen bottom boards on every hive for the last several days. I'm assuming they were killed by the cold, but perhaps bees were able to remove if the cold affected the beetle's metabolism. Anyone have any information regarding what percentage beetle population is reduced due to cold weather. I have not observed any beetle larvae drop for about a month. Jerry Wallace Atlanta, GA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:58:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Diatomaceous Earth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Is there anything about the anatomy of the SHB that > would prevent diatomaceous earth from working? Wings. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:30:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: Diatomaceous Earth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/16/2004 8:32:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, nursebee@JUNO.COM writes: Anyone have any ideas as to the use of Diatomaceous Earth spread on the ground around beehives as a pest control method for small hive beetle? Has it been studied? Is there anything about the anatomy of the SHB that would prevent this from working? I've used DE for general pest control, mostly for curiosities sake. I have access to other materials that are more effective. DE is basically tiny particles of sharp sand that is applied dry into areas that are expected to remain dry. The target insect passing over DE gets it on them by static charge or contact. DE abrades the exoskeletal plates and joining cuticles. Death is expected by infection or dehydration. (Death by 1,000 paper cuts) I would not expect DE applied to the ground to useful due to the moisture there, I wouldn't try it to close to the hive, DE would have the same effect on the bees. I openly admit to knowing very little about SHB specifically, but it's antennae shape is a type that I recognize from other insects as being very sensitive to smells (food, sex) from a great distance. Coming into an area by wing, I dought the SHB problem will be solved by any type of ground treatment. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:04:32 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: Millions of Bees Spilled on Vegas Freeway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Millions of Bees Spilled on Vegas Freeway http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=571&ncid=751&e=1& u=/nm/20041216/hl_nm/bees_cancer_dc :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:42:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Hack Subject: Re: HFCS storage and heating In-Reply-To: <000901c4e360$c6a08270$45b85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We use only type 55, never type 42, > > allen > What brix is your type 55? Thanks, Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:17:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?us-ascii?Q?Dieter_Schurer?= Subject: AW: [BEE-L] Millions of Bees Spilled on Vegas Freeway In-Reply-To: <142.3b4faa95.2ef3b4d0@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello The given link was not the correct one, here is the real one: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-12-16-spilled-bees_x.htm?csp=34 regards Dieter Schurer :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:28:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AW: [BEE-L] Millions of Bees Spilled on Vegas Freeway Comments: To: deealusby1@aol.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The thing that annoys me with this incident is not the fact that the truck overturned. Nor the fact that the authorities first called for beekeepers to pick up the bees. Nor the fact that they had to water them down. What annoyed me was that the drivers of the truck, that should have been beekeepers were not allowed to grap the boxes of bees they could and keep on driving, but maybe they couldn't (not enough info given.) But they took a front loader, Scoop bucket tractor rig, and then scooped up the bees in the boxes and threw them over the sides of the bridge (should have shut down and redirected traffic IMPOV) to smash to pieces at the bottom on ground to create an even BIGGER MESS which would be even more sever bee stinging in frenzy with public and then made decision to water them down.) This to me is the height of disrespect...........would they do this to other livestock? Somehow the teachings of how to deal with an overturn have gotten way off base here IMPOV. So much for teachings as how to PROPERLY deal with a turnover and in this case a person's livehood with shortfall expected for the almonds. Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:41:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erwan Cassard Subject: Aethina Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi, i'm a french beekepper, and i'm working for the department of bee desease. Sorry my english is very bad. We are looking for informations (good or bad) on the damage of Aethina on professional beekeepers, and breeders. Thank's for all informations Erwan Cassard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:30:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AW: [BEE-L] Millions of Bees Spilled on Vegas Freeway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, I was not going to comment on the wreck but I have had people email wanting me to. So will give comments. Dee said: What annoyed me was that the drivers of the truck, that should have been beekeepers were not allowed to grap the boxes of bees they could and keep on driving, but maybe they couldn't (not enough info given.) Beekeepers drive less than 50% of the trucks moving into Almonds. Of the non beekeeper drivers a small percentage are the professional bee hive haulers. I believe these guys are worth the higher fees and worth waiting for. I have loaded semis for both kinds of bee haulers. The professional and "the never hauled bees before driver". The independent drivers and company booked flatbed haulers carry load insurance. The load goes over and the beekeeper can accept the damaged load plus compensation or simply take the insurance payoff. To use a recent example. The last years load which over turned near Kansas City was insured and the Texas beekeeper took the payoff. When this happens the insurance company sends an adjuster to take control of the situation. In the case of the KC spill the adjuster looked as scared as a deer in headlights. He was smart enough to take the advice of Missouri beekeepers on the scene and the cleanup went extremely smooth (over a four day period). Two large Missouri beekeepers made an offer on the load and took charge of the cleanup Most likely secenario for Vegas: Possibly in Vegas the load was insured, the owner beekeeper did not want the mess so elected to take the insurance, no beekeeper stepped up to buy the mess (load of bees) and so the insurance company decided to kill and remove the mess to a landfill. Another possible scenario: The ramp could not be routed easily around (which was not the case in Missouri) so kill and remove mess was decided on. In many cities the mayor is the highest ranking person in city hall. if he/she orders a course of action the police department has to follow. Beekeepers and insurance adjusters many times have little say in the matter. After four days of 24 hour a day cleanup the city ordered the remaining hives at the Missouri site killed by soapy water by the fire department and the hives dumped in a dumpster. The beekeepers protested but to no avail. Next we have got the migratory beekeeper with his own semi. Many migratory beekeepers move their own bees on their own semis into California. These guys carry liability insurance but not all carry insurance on the hives (is available through Roger Starks and many do carry the insurance)as the insurance is expensive. Why is the insurance rather expensive? Because the beekeeper can demand payment and the mess belongs to the insurance company! A beekeeper with all his hives on a semi which turns over *uninsured* could be wiped out (like Dee said) if the powers that be decide to kill and dump his hives in a dumpster like Vegas. Has happened more than once! Many times the beekeeper/beekeepers have little say in the matter. Smart beekeepers ALWAYS want to wait for a wrecker company with huge air bags to right the wreck in my opinion. A recent Mendes brothers turned on side load of bees on the Pennsilvania turnpike ( I believe from memory) was waiting for a wrecker with air bags. The load was destroyed by a couple wrecker drivers using cables against boxes which simply riped apart making the mess worse and upseting the bees needlessly!. The Mendes brothers had a wrecker enroute with the bags but a policeman on the scene let a couple *show up scene to make a buck* wrecker drivers destroy the load. We have got a law against those type wrecker drivers in K.C.! Cleaning up a wreck of 480 behives all smashed up takes TIME , MAN POWER AND EQUIPMENT. Dee asks: This to me is the height of disrespect...........would they do this to other livestock? I don't believe so but 480 hives in a wreck is a scary site to the novice!! With air bags a simply overturned semi can be routed simply and quickly in most instances. Straps many times hold the load in place. An overturned semi can not be righted by running cables around wooden hives and winching! A beekeeper which is familiar with the loading of semi's needs to advise. Hope I have helped BEE-L readers to understand the ins and outs of truck wrecks. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:24:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Aethina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Erwan, What is aethina? Kathy Cox, Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets Northern California, Italian, 25 hives www.kathycox.frankcox.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:20:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AW: [BEE-L] Millions of Bees Spilled on Vegas Freeway In-Reply-To: <000501c4e4a1$7ada2200$2bbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Want to let Bob Harrison know that I liked his informative reply. Noting in recent months even National Geographic Magazine has published articles on the high loss of honeybee colonies nationwide and the shortage of bees for pollenation of some of our countries food crops now appearing, to the detriment of speciality crop farmers (not that the almonds couldn't use more bees also).............. It would appear to me that if the USDA with our bee lab's help can teach fire departments to put down bees with hoses, etc ...... Then they can also teach proper uprighting of loads to lessen impact, salvage our farm animals, save expensive woodenware, and help to keep this country's crops pollenated for farmer's impacted, not just the beekeepers. So when does this next training begin with information put out to industry in general,to include in texts like ABJ, and ABC and XYC of Bee Culture, or has it already. Basically if bees can be taught to be put down, then they can be taught to be saved also somewhere in our schooling system. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 21:37:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Aethina In-Reply-To: <1ec.308b87e0.2ef50b0d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kathy: Aethina Tumida maybe would be the small hive beetle. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:07:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?US-ASCII?Q?Dieter_Schurer?= Subject: AW: [BEE-L] Aethina In-Reply-To: <92365A39-508D-11D9-8058-003065546B7E@tiscali.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bonjour Erwan There is a very good paper on this from Australia. A commission visited the USA to get more information from commercial beekeepers. Look at http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/03-050sum.html There is a link to download the full report. It is one of the very best that you can get. regards Dieter Schurer, Switzerland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:12:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?US-ASCII?Q?Dieter_Schurer?= Subject: AW: [BEE-L] Aethina In-Reply-To: <1ec.308b87e0.2ef50b0d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Kathy It is the small hive beetle that has arrived in Portugal and is threatening Europe now. dieter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:15:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: AW: [BEE-L] Aethina In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-19A944F8; boundary="=======36092096=======" --=======36092096======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-19A944F8; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > the small hive beetle that has arrived in Portugal and is threatening >Europe now. I have heard two different reports on how Aethina arrived in Portugal. One says they arrived in package bees, and one says queens in shipping cages. Which is it?? I can see how Aethina could easily be shipped in packages or nucs, but not so in queen shipping cages. In shipping cages, the queen and attendants are placed, by hand, into the cage, and I just wonder how the beetles would get there. It just seems unlikely they would be transported via caged queens...although I guess anything is possible. Mike --=======36092096=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 09:37:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AW: [BEE-L] Millions of Bees Spilled on Vegas Freeway In-Reply-To: <000501c4e4a1$7ada2200$2bbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As in most accidents, it depends on where it happens and what is involved. One major bee spill in Maine happened on a rural road and the recovery took some time with quite a bit of recovered boxes and bees. A second occurred on an interstate on-ramp and the bees were hosed down with foam. In both cases knowledgeable Beekeepers were present after the accident and in each case their advice was taken. The Interstate on ramp could not have been kept closed for the time that the rural road was. Plus there were emergency vehicles on the Interstate with the resulting traffic tie up. Add the resulting publicity and it might have caused more harm to transporting bees on the Interstate than the loss of one truckload of bees. Legislators love to protect the public from all harm, even perceived but not real. In the case of both, Beekeepers fared well and their actions were praised by the press for acting responsibly, including TV coverage for the Interstate spill. Public welfare came first. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 11:08:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Aethina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I can see how Aethina could easily be shipped in packages > or nucs, but not so in queen shipping cages. In individual queen cages with attendants within I would agree. But I can imagive a few stow away beetles in battery boxes with attendants shaken in with the caged queens. Aaron Morris - thinking needle in a haystack! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 18:17:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?US-ASCII?Q?Dieter_Schurer?= Subject: Aethina in Europe In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20041218080911.025ee418@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike This is what the official version says: In September 2004 someone in Portugal imported 120 Queens from the USA. 2 days after the queens had been put into the hives, the national laboratory of Portugal examined the cages in which the queens had been transported as well as the small number of attendant bees. They found some eggs and some larvae of the shb. All hives were killed and the combs and suppers were burned and the ashes dig into the ground 1 meter deep. The soil was desinfected 4 meters around the place where the hives were and to a depth of 30 cm. In addition the ground was covered with a plastic about 8 meters around the hives. This area will be closely watched for any beetles emerging. What is astonishing is the fact, that importing bees from the USA was forbidden by the EU commission because of the shb. Still they have imported it. If this was not legal, then, why did the national laboratory inspect the cages? If I would import something illegally, then I certainly would not advise the authorities of this??? regards, dieter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:12:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Athena tumida (small hive beetle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by beeactor@EARTHLINK.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=69145D6F) (55 lines) ------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:07:21 -0500 To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Athena tumida (small hive beetle) Aethina tumida is the small hive beetle. See http://creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/misc/bees/small_hive_beetle.htm ; Dr. Mike Hood has recently published an up-to-date article on this insect in Bee World. En Frances: http://www.apiservices.com/abeille-de-france/articles/aethina_tumida.htm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 14:47:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Millions of Bees Spilled on Vegas Freeway Comments: cc: JoTraynor@aol.com In-Reply-To: <41C4409E.5010903@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A query: Does anyone know who owned the bees (from Utah, perhaps) and the intended destination of those hives? Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************* * The most formidable weapon against errors of any kind * is reason. * Thomas Paine, 1794 ************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 12:40:41 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: M & T Weatherhead Subject: Re: Aethina In-Reply-To: <63D883CB0A1B204EB053673DD882CB53933F9C@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In individual queen cages with attendants within I would agree. But I can imagive a few stow > away beetles in battery boxes with attendants shaken in with the caged queens. Medhat Nasr told me that when he was working in the USA he had found small hive beetle (SHB)in battery boxes. I agree that you will not get SHB in cages that are hand caught and hand escorted. You only need to look at how the queen and escorts are caught to realise that the SHB runs away to a dark corner of the nuc when you open the nuc. Where cages are pre-escorted, I can imagine that there is a high likelihood that you could get SHB in the cage with the escorts. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.818 / Virus Database: 556 - Release Date: 17/12/04 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 01:08:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 17 Dec 2004 to 18 Dec 2004 (#2004-336) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello folks. Having kept bees in Spain since 1982, and having traveled to beekeeping congresses in Portugal and Spain, I can say that I am well acquainted with beekeeping in both countries. I am really sorry that SHBs have made their arrival there but I am not surprised at all. I have been "crying wolf" there for the last three years. I have thought that the arrival of SHBs was merely an accident waiting to happen. Although it has been said that the SHB's arrived in a shipment of queen bees from the USA, I tend to think that the SHBs may have arrived from elswhere. Traffic from Africa into Spain is constant and numerous. I also tend to think that there will be more findings of SHBs sooner than later at which time I hope the origin may be traced with more accuracy "than queen cages." Best wishes for the holiday season and God bless. Dr. Rodriguez Proclaiming The Lordīs expression and creation with our honey bees. __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 21:52:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AW: [BEE-L] Millions of Bees Spilled on Vegas Freeway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, Dee said: Want to let Bob Harrison know that I liked his informative reply. Thanks Dee! I have tried to give insight to the list on many topics concerning the commercial and commercial migratory beekeeper. Every year at this time I make time to read old beekeeping books. Today I was rereading a 1913 edition of the 1888 "Langstroth on the Hive & Honey Bee" Because the book is now on line in the new virtual library (Cornell Univ..)all can follow along. My copy is not pristine and in poor condition but very readable. For those unfamiliar with the text I will share the fact that each section in numbered and in parenthesis is often another number which directs the reader to another section of similar interest and at times several sections. On page 103 of the above book under the section "comb" Langstroth makes an observation which might spark a discussion from my friend and fellow reader of old bee books Dee Lusby. The number section in my copy is 217. Langstroth quote from his book: "The cells in which workers are reared are the smallest. Those in which the drones are reared are larger. *It is generally admitted that five worker-cells measure about a linear inch, or twenty -five cells to the square inch, BUT THIS IS INCORRECT. IF five worker cells measured exactly an inch, the number contained in a square inch would be about twenty-nine. As they are usually somewhat larger, the average number in a square inch IS a trifle over twenty-seven." Using my calculator the above puts cell size at the time of the books writing (1888) *according to Langstroth* as closer to 5.1mm to 5.2mm. than as has been suggested by 4.9ers as 4.9mm. I have read many old bee books and Langstroth's book before but never remember reading the above observation by Langstroth. Langstroth was noted for his accurate observations in the bee hive. I believe Langstroth is the only writer of old bee books to question the statement which is common in every other old bee book I have read which states worker cells ARE "five cells to the inch". It is interesting that Langstroth clearly says " five cells to the inch is INCORRECT". Interesting that over a hundred years later we still can not agree on what is the correct size of worker cells today and especially not what was the correct size for the 1880's. I hope Ed is doing better Dee and thought I would give you and the 49 ers something to ponder. Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to the list! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:31:18 +0100 Reply-To: paalvarez@arrakis.es Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pedro ALVAREZ Subject: Management models involving bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Does anyone know or has experience using bees in landscape management, to increase the flowers and seeds production for the silver fauna? If not, do you know about any kind of management models involving bees for conservation purpose? Thanks in advance, Pedro A. Alvarez North Carolina State University Dept. of Entomology Grinnells labs Campus Box 7626 Raleigh NC 27695, USA Cell. +1- 919-637-2034 Tel. +1- 919-515-1664 Fax. +1- 919-515-7273 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:13:38 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: AW: [BEE-L] Millions of Bees Spilled on Vegas Freeway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bob Harrison" > " Interesting that over a hundred years later we still can not agree on what > is the correct size of worker cells today and especially not what was the > correct size for the 1880's" There are more references we can add to Bob's research. Comb building was extensively studied by Huber who reported in his letters in 1792 that the 'diameter' of worker cells was 2 and 2/5ths 'lines' (12 lines to one inch). Drone cells were 3 and 1/3rd lines. [Quoted from Huber Natural History of the Honeybees English edition 1841]. I do not know how the diameter of a hexagonal cell compares with the distance across the flats, which is what we mean when we say small cells are 4.9mm. Langstroth on the Hive and the Honeybee first came out in 1853, from LL's own hand. Whilst he says' the size of cells in which workers are raised never varies' I cannot find a size quoted anywhere. [P74 of the Root reprint of 1853 edition}. In poor health, Langstroth passed over the The Hive and the Honeybee to Charles Dadant in 1885, who re-wrote with a different structure. The Abbe Collin is reported to have calculated the number of cells per square decimeter as 'almost 850, 530 for drones'. [Quoted from para 251 of the French edition 1896]. Bob has referred to para 217 of the 1913 edition of The Hive and Honeybee, giving the number of cells as 27 per sq inch. The second part of the para requotes Abbe Collin as having measured 854 worker cells per square decimeter in Paris in 1851, adding that Charles Dadant's own measurements agreed. Meanwhile in UK, Bevan's The Honeybee and its Management 1870 represents Huber observation in detail , but gives the size of worker cells as 2 and 3/5ths lines. Huber had been printed as 2 and 2/5ths, so either Bevan or the English edition of Huber must be a misprint. [Anyone know which?] Cheshire in Bees and Beekeeping 1886 p216 gives an idea of the variation in size of bees at the time - 20 Carniolan workers weighed 66gms against 28gms for 20 Cyprian workers. 'Natural worker comb seemed to vary between 30 and 27 cells per 6 inches [which I make 5.1 to 5.6 mm]. Cheshire gives the sizes of the earliest foundation: Mehring plates 30.5 cells per 6 inches; Long's foundation 30; Raitt's 29; Flat bottomed 28; and Original Root 27 - [which I make means Root was introducing 5.6mm in the 1880's, the large end of the range of natural comb at the time. IMHO This large worker comb may well have been built by bees in late summer for honey storage and not for brood, in which case Root was skewing the brood nest ]. I do not have the mathematical skill to translate all these early references into comparable mm figures. I hope someone will still be awake after the Xmas pud and would like to do that for us and post it back. Robin Dartington > I hope Ed is doing better Dee and thought I would give you and the 49 ers > something to ponder. > Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to the list! > Sincerely, > Bob Harrison > Odessa, Missouri > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 07:55:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: a e Subject: Thanks & best wishes In-Reply-To: <000d01c4e647$4a2f5920$12bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to all beekeepers. Thanks to all those who take so much of their time to send us all the useful information which is on the list. Sincerely, Abbas __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:31:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Fw: Immediate Attention EPA/Carbaryl/bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This came in today with a request to forward to as many US beekeepers as possible. The deadline for comment is only a few days away, and in the holiday season to boot. One can only wonder why the comment period ends a few sort weeks before the US national bee meetings. Coincidence? There were some additional documents attached, but, seeing as BEE-L does not support attachments, I have posted the rest of the docs at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/carbaryl/ --- My name is Jeff Anderson, I operate a commercial bee operation California Minnesota Honey Farms based in Eagle Bend Minnesota and Oakdale California. I have had significant problems with the spraying of carbaryl (Sevin) both to hybrid poplar plantations in Minnesota, and thin spraying apples in California. EPA is re registering old chemicals, carbaryl is currently opened for public comment until December 27th. I have co written a comment to the Carbaryl IRED to which I am requesting beekeeper or bee organization sign ons. The boiled down request is that EPA loose the "if bees are foraging in the treatment area" from the bee caution. If this were to occur, the bee caution would simply say, "Do not apply or allow to drift to blooming crops or weeds. It is my opinion that this would be hugely easier for spray applicators to assess rather than the presence of pollinators. Also it should be more enforceable. In Minnesota we run into Minnesota Department of Ag's logic, that just because bees are foraging today, is no sign they were here last Thursday when the spray application took place. It should be a given that when there is bloom, there are pollinators. I have established some connections in the environmental community. Beyond Pesticides became interested that someone from the bee community was interested in responsible pesticide use, and offer to co write my comments. ALL the information in my comment letter is MY information. Beyond pesticides formatted it and worded it in a manner which they thought would make the most impact at EPA. ...I am hopeful that you could spread this around and hopefully generate some sign ons or direct comments to this issue. Last spring I was invited to DC by the Executive Board of ABF, one of the requests of EPA was a written definition of the 'bee caution'. EPA declined to do that , I have been told by 3 of the 6 EPA persons present that EPA is not going to make any public statement about the bee caution until after the Carbaryl issue is settled. Evidently it is EPA's opinion that bee kills are minor regional events, and that the Minnesota problem if ignored will simply fade away. Pesticides are every beekeepers problem, and we need to re draw the line back where pollinators have protection. I babbled about enough. I am hopeful that you can facilitate this effort. Beyond Pesticides is compiling the sign on information. Contact Shawnee Hoover at shoover@beyondpesticides.org or phone 202-343-5450. Because of the Christmas Holiday Beyond Pesticide is going to submit comments by tomorrow afternoon December 22nd. Official EPA closing date is December 27th. Thanks for your attention in this matter. Sincerely Jeff Anderson California Minnesota Honey Farms 7342 River Road Oakdale CA 95361 209-847-4731 cell 209-345-2045 721 Wells Street Eagle Bend MN.56446 PS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CONTACT ME IF YOU NEED ADDITIONAL INFORMATION :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:36:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hendricks Subject: carbaryl re-registration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Deadline for acting on this is Dec 22, so this requires immediate = attention.=20 Speaking on behalf of Colorado Sunshine Honey Co., we have a 14 ft = U-Haul full floor front to back, floor to ceiling with hives that have = been contaminated with pesticides. Whether it's carbaryl, Penncap, = furidan, or whatever, we don't have the resources to find out. Those in = charge of regulating these chemicals and others have a nifty little = thing that they've got going. When they want to sneak a foul smelling = rule past those who suffer the consequences of said rule, they introduce = it on short notice during the holidays. Given time, we could have = numerous anecdotal accounts of problems with all of those pesticides = from our current population of hobbyists and commercial beekeepers. We = are extremely offended by the EPA's intimation that accounts of = pesticide kills are on the wane, seeing as how the EPA and the State = Departments of Agriculture have their fingers in their ears. It's no = surprise they claim they can't hear us out here. Perhaps the Christians = who say they put George Bush in power need reminding that they will be = accountable for their stewardship not only of their own lives but how = they handle this planet.=20 Paul Hendricks, owner Colorado Sunshine Honey Co. If you would respond to the EPA's fast shuffle they are giving the = beekeepers, then please send your comments to: opp-docket@epa.gov :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:18:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Griggs Subject: Looking for a hand roll foundation mill In-Reply-To: <200412210502.iBL4udgr012464@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I've been asked to help look around for a hand crank foundation mill--clean & in good working order, cell size not important. Looking to use it for other than making foundation but it must be clean or cleanable. I see that new ones are available here & there. I saw a Denmark made model & one from India on the WWW. None at E-bay! I do know there is at least one in a cabinet out at Dyce Lab. otherwise know of none. I wonder do any of you have one collecting dust? With plastic foundation in such high demand I bet there are a few idol machines in shops out there somewhere. Eastern US would be good- if you could e-mail me off list I would appreciate it. Happy Holiday to all and to all a good year! Mike Griggs mhg3@cornell.edu :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:20:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: carbaryl re-registration In-Reply-To: <002601c4e61b$1fc6bc40$d6fce304@LindaHome> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Paul though for some reason I want to say Dan: This practice by the EPA with deadlines such as this has been common for as long as I can remember. So you and other commercial should be aware and on lookout always for same, and react accordingly. Here the pesticides mentioned are seemingly the same/similar, even going back into the 1970s/1980s and earlier BIPP years. Consequently you should be saving and keep always on hand the very information you are now seeking to be in anticipation of these yearly needs, that show industry's numerous anecdotal accounts of problems with all of those pesticides from our current population of hobbyists and commercial beekeepers. But, I do disagree that the EPS's intimation that accounts of pesticide kills are on the wane...............it just seems that way in the numbers counting game, for as numbers of colonies in the USA wane due to IMPOV various internal treatments for maladies of mites, SHB, and associated diseases for treat and control measures instead of getting rid of the problem long-haul, lessor numbers of overall colonies to show in ratio to would indeed make the count seem as lessening of a problem in the big paper mill of life. But to put the blame on Christians, when you could be in bed with the same pesticidal users in the field by way of all the various treatments within by beekeepers doping in many cases by anymeans as recently pointed out in the Dakotas as an example is not good practice either. For I was always taught to fight pesticides, practice should be, one doesn't use....period, then cloudy lines cannot be drawn of who's usage in the field or elsewhere, u that kills or dameages honeybees, is then readily known from obvious source. But I sure hope you get the replies for lobbying you are looking for, just don't do it with fence walkers! Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ (Thinking If we as beekeepers don't put dopes in a hive, then someone else has to be doing it!) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:46:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Fw: Immediate Attention EPA/Carbaryl/bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >My name is Jeff Anderson, I operate a commercial bee operation >California Minnesota Honey Farms based in Eagle Bend >Minnesota and Oakdale California. You will find a picture of Jeff Anderson & his family on page 78 of the May 1993 issue of National Geographic magazine ( vol. 183 ,no.5) in the article "U.S. Beekeepers :Hives for Hire". The large U.S. beekeeper is on the endangered list. Most large beekeeping operations are family run operations like Jeff's. Please take a minute of your time to help the industry out. Very improtant issue. >Beyond Pesticides is compiling the sign on information. Contact >Shawnee Hoover at shoover@beyondpesticides.org or phone 202-343-5450. >Because of the Christmas Holiday Beyond Pesticide is going to >submit comments by tomorrow afternoon December 22nd. >Official EPA closing date is December 27th. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:13:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Looking for a hand roll foundation mill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hi all, I've been asked to help look around for a hand crank > foundation mill--clean & in good working order, cell size not > important. Tom Industries in Yuma made mills to order. I'm not sure if they still do, since Tom was ill some time after I visited him. Picture and phone number is at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2002/diary011002.htm allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:52:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 19 Dec 2004 to 20 Dec 2004 (#2004-338) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/12/2004 05:11:22 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: > Comb building was extensively studied by Huber who reported in his letters > in 1792 that the 'diameter' of worker cells was 2 and 2/5ths 'lines' (12 > lines to one inch). Drone cells were 3 and 1/3rd lines. [Quoted from Huber > Natural History of the Honeybees English edition 1841]. I do not know how > the diameter of a hexagonal cell compares with the distance across the > flats, which is what we mean when we say small cells are 4.9mm. > However, be aware that the inch was not a standard measure throughtout Europe; each locality having its own version. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::