From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 08:46:37 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64B5C4903F for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SDbKlT012089 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:44:19 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0412D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 71870 Lines: 1716 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:24:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Cooper Subject: Carbaryl Re-Registration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You can always request an extension of the comment period and the more people requesting it the more likely it will happen. =20 Michael E. Cooper, Acting Administrator Plant Industries Division Idaho State Department of Agriculture P.O. Box 790 Boise, ID 83701 =20 Phone: (208) 332-8620 Fax: (208) 334-2283 e-mail: mcooper@agri.state.id.us =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:37:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Grant Gillard Subject: Was a beekeeper one of the Wise Men? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Was a beekeeper one of the wise men bringing honey to the baby Jesus? Well, it's not a serious question. I have a copy of a 1969 issue of the British Bee Journal showing the cover illustration of three wise men bringing gifts to the baby Jesus. Except in this case, one of the wise men is a beekeeper offering a gift of honey. The illustration originates from a Christmas card sent by beekeeper Dr. R. H. Barnes. The artwork appears to be German, and according to Dr. Barnes on the inside cover notes, the legend behind the illustration tells how the wise men fell into the hands of brigands on their way from the East. One of them was badly injured. A beekeeper came to the rescue, bound up his wounds (probably using honey). After seeing him to the hospital, the beekeeper took the injured man’s place in the pilgrimage and, because the injured man was the navigator, the beekeeper’s bees led the way. In the picture, the beekeeper is offering a gift of honey, and next to him is his skep of honeybees. Has anyone else heard of this legend? Not that I put one iota of credibility in the story, I did find it amusingly interesting. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:39:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: Looking for a hand roll foundation mill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/21/2004 4:39:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, mhg3@CORNELL.EDU writes: Hi all, I've been asked to help look around for a hand crank foundation mill--clean & in good working order, cell size not important. Looking to use it for other than making foundation but it must be clean or cleanable. Hi Mike, Walter T. Kelly Company sells them, not very cheap at $1,800.00 http://go.netgrab.com/secure/kelleystore/asp/product.asp?product=217 They come in all sizes, even 4.9. :) JIm Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:11:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Ruzicka Subject: SUPPLY OF FORMIC ACID THREATENED MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NOD Apiary has applied for the unnecessary registration of Mite Away II in Canada. This process requires public input. As a result, the Pest Management Regulatory Agency is getting an earful of protests to the registration of Mite Away II and increased public demand to register just formic acid. NOD IS TRYING TO CORNER THE MARKET IN BOTH COUNTRIES THROUGH THE REGISTRATION OF A PRODUCT THAT HAS MANY LIMITATIONS. THE REGISTRATION WILL MAKE OTHER USES OF FORMIC ACID RESTRICTED. The use of formic acid by the beekeeper in the USA is legal. Acid is an unregulated product; however, several beekeepers were refused sale of acid. Someone is informing acid suppliers and telling them not to sell acid to beekeepers otherwise they will be fined. This is based on the EPA ruling: “If the manufacturer or seller is aware of beekeepers using formic acid as a pesticide then that manufacturer is obligated to register the acid otherwise he will be subject of regulatory action.” This makes acid difficult to obtain. Manufacturers avoid fines by refusing to sell officially to beekeepers. Chemical manufacturing companies will not register formic acid. There is no one to sponsor registration of formic acid. Beekeepers must buy the acid under false pretenses. See the article in Bee Culture March 2004 issue page 37, Status of Formic Acid in the USA. WHAT YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT Fortunately the NOD application EPA # 75710-R in the USA opens the door to public and political pressure directly to the EPA. Write to your senator, congressmen and anyone of influence. Tell them about your distress, situation, and your loss of hives. Ask for the exemption or full registration of 65% technical grade formic acid for use in beehives. The dispensing method must be left up to the beekeeper. Don’t under estimate the possibility of exemption; it may be the best way. (See the link below) That way, you will have the best solution to the formic acid issue in the USA. You will be able to buy acid that is already thinned, in small quantities, and use any of the application methods available today (that beekeepers are already using). Make sure you copy the EPA on your letter. Send it to: Dr Russell Jones Chair, Biochemical Classification Committee Biopesticides and Pollution Prevention Division (7511 C)9th Floor, Room 910 Office of Pesticide Programs Crystal City, Crystall Mall 21921 Jefferson Davis Highway Arlington, Virginia 22202 Phone: 703-308-5071 Email: jones.russell@epa.gov AND EPA – Biopesticide Division Attention: Dr. Sheryl K. Reilly 7511CUSEPA Headquarters Ariel Rios Building 1200 Pennsylvania Avenue, N. W. Washington, DC 20460 Phone: 703-308-8269 email: reilly.sheryl@epa.gov All of the information on Formic Acid NOD registration and the Canadian experience is available at the following links. You are welcome to use any part of them in your own submission or resolution. Formic Acid Registration Response - includes NOD evaluation. LINK: http://mitegone.com/forms/Formic%20Acid%20Registration%20Response.pdf Scheduling C94-05 – the most sensible way to regulate acid use LINK: http://www.pmra-arla.gc.ca/english/pdf/reg/reg_c9405-e.pdf Supporting emails RE FORMIC ACID USE THREATENED. LINK http://mitegone.com/forms/Supporting%20emails%20RE%20FORMIC%20ACID%20USE% 20THREATENED.pdf Introduction and Status of Formic Acid in the USA LINK: http://www.mitegone.com/forms/Introduction%20and%20Status%20of%20Formic% 20Acid%20in%20USA.pdf NOD Application for 65% Technical Grade in Canada. LINK: http://www.pmra- arla.gc.ca/english/pdf/prdd/prdd2004-05-e.pdf :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:46:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: SUPPLY OF FORMIC ACID THREATENED MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many people on several continents have worked over several decades to develop formic protocols that work. NOD's product is just one of many ways to use formic to control varroa and tracheal mites, and, as such, has limitations in its applicability. The size of colony, the time of year, the design of the hive (nuc?) and other factors may preclude use of NOD's product, when, at the same time, use of pads, applicators, and other approaches might be quite practical. NOD's product is -- IMO -- an unnecessarily expensive, unwieldy, and inflexible method of using formic. I know several beekeepers who have used various incarnations of the NOD product and who are not - AFAIK - planning to use it again. I realise that we are being presented with a new improved version, but I would not bet my operation on it, or give up all other formic methods for it. I am sure the NOD product has its niche, but I would hate to see it displace or threaten all the other methods, and I am afraid that NOD's current activities are attracting the attention of regulators in Canada and the USA to what has been a minimally regulated product. I have followed the various methods of formic application over the years, and been aware of this particular method ever since Medhat first developed it, and, although I have used other formic methods, I have always stayed away from long-term, single shot applications for reasons of efficacy, brood suppression, the need for extra equipment, time constraints, and other factors. I have, however used and followed other formic methods, and I personally favour both the use of meat pads and Jean-Pierre's method with a special floor, although I have not personally used the latter. Bill R's method seems a bit complex for me, and I have never tried it, but I am very impressed by the vigour with which he has worked to educate beekeepers to the potential of formic and the availability of various non-proprietary techniques, and think his method has its place. I tend to agreed with Bill's assessment of the NOD applications, and share his apprehension that NOD's activities will affect our use of other, and IMO better and more flexible, formic applications for mite controls. I would advise all beekeepers to examine the various methods of formic application (see http://www.honeybeeworld.com/formic/default.htm) and to oppose any attempts to discredit non-proprietary formic use or restrict formic use to one proprietary method. Bill writes: > All of the information on Formic Acid NOD registration and > the Canadian experience is available at the following links. > You are welcome to use any part of them in your own > submission or resolution. and includes the following links. Since some of the links broke across lines, I am giving them again, here, with shorter, unbroken URLs to the same pages. Formic Acid Registration Response - includes NOD evaluation. LINK: http://mitegone.com/forms/Formic%20Acid%20Registration%20Response.pdf Scheduling C94-05 - the most sensible way to regulate acid use LINK:http://www.pmra-arla.gc.ca/english/pdf/reg/reg_c9405-e.pdf Supporting emails RE FORMIC ACID USE THREATENED. LINK http://tinyurl.com/6fvkp Introduction and Status of Formic Acid in the USA LINK: http://tinyurl.com/4twgg NOD Application for 65% Technical Grade in Canada. LINK: http://tinyurl.com/3mshr allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:15:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Was a beekeeper one of the wise men MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I heard somewhere that one of the gifts of the Magi (I know only of = Frankincense and Muir) was derived from a beehive. I was told that Muir = (SP?) was propolis.=20 Have a merry Christmas, Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:28:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Re: Was a beekeeper one of the wise men MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry, but myrrh is dried sap from a particular species of tree, used in the preparation of bodies for burial. It was thought to have some "life sustaining" properties (perhaps odor reducing as well). It may have had some medicinal properties also. Myrrh is not very dense, and in fact may have quite valuable in small amounts by weight. Abraham , when he was in danger of starving and sent his sons to visit the Pharoh in Egypt to seek food, sent along some honey as a gift. Honey was and is a valuable gift, since it was relatively hard to come by. There are several references to honey in the Bible, but some in the Hebrew versions of the text are actually references to a sweetened syrup made from dates. This is the reference in the phrase "the land of milk and honey" referring to the land of Israel. Now, to really beat a dead horse, if in fact the three wise men sent along a gift of honey, Mary and Joseph would not have been able to feed it to Jesus until he was at least a year old, however the consequences of doing so were not known at the time. Merry Christmas C. Crowell Hightstown, NJ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:30:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: Was a beekeeper one of the wise men In-Reply-To: <014501c4e91b$703189a0$cce3fc40@drivec> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Myrrh is a dried tree sap. Here is one reference: http://people.howstuffworks.com/question283.htm Merry Christmas, Bill Dick Marron wrote: >I was told that Muir (SP?) was propolis. > Have a merry Christmas, > >Dick Marron > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:45:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Was a beekeeper one of the wise men MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/12/04 20:08:01 GMT Standard Time, dickm@SNET.NET writes: <> Frankincense and myrrh are both plant resins, and were highly prized in the ancient Mear East. Frankincense comes from the frankincense bush, but I haven't been able to determine exactly what myrrh comes from.Either could, I suppose, become an ingredient in propolis, but neither 'was' propolis. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:57:20 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: M & T Weatherhead Subject: Re: Was a beekeeper one of the wise men In-Reply-To: <122320042028.12056.41CB2A50000746E700002F18215876675599019D0C9C079B9D9A0C@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A bit of an oxymoron having beekeeper and wise man in the same sentence? Trevor Weatherhead Australia --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.822 / Virus Database: 560 - Release Date: 22/12/04 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:03:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bee Haven Subject: frankincense and myrrh MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings All, Frankincense comes from Boswellia carteri (Somaliland) and myrrh from = Commiphora abyssinica and C. molmol (Arabia and Ethiopia). All these = woody species are in the Burseraceae or Frankincense Family, members of = which have extensive resin canals. Steve Mitchell, Duncan BC =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 08:58:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: frankincense and myrrh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seems like these 2 items are derived from tree sap. Propolis is gathered tree sap carried home in the pollen baskets. Since it's not ingested what, besides water, could the bees add? Thus: It's tree sap. We're close here. I'm amazed at the depth of knowledge on this board, most of it useful. Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:53:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: frankincense and myrrh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Most of the first hits in Google on ‘propolis myrrh’ bring up sites for Tom’s of Maine toothpaste. So here is more “information” on the two from Tom’s of Maine: “Propolis & Myrrh: Two Special Herbal Resins. Propolis is a mixture of tree resins, rich in bioflavinoids, which bees collect to line their hives. Myrrh is an astringent plant resin traditionally found in dentifrices.” Here’s some reading on propolis: http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e14.htm#5.1 “A Cuban study suggests that the plant resins collected are at least partially metabolized by bees. The presence of sugars also suggests some metabolization by bees, i.e. as a result of adding saliva during both scraping and chewing” Merry Christmas to all: Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:30:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Subject: Re: SUPPLY OF FORMIC ACID THREATENED MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following is from the last paragraph of the NOD Apiary Products application: __________________________________________________________________ The PMRA will accept written comments on this proposal up to 45 days from the date of publication of this document to allow interested parties an opportunity to provide input into the proposed registration decision for this product. _____________________________________________________________________ The document is dated 5 November 2004 Are the 45 days, calendar days (December 20) or business days (January 7 2005)? D & R McKinney NB Beekeepers Store Maugerville NB :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 11:39:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Frankincense and Myrrh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>as a result of adding saliva during both scraping and chewing<<< (Of = propolis) I'd like to know more about this. Are we projecting here? It's hard to = imagine bees with saliva. At the same time it's hard to imagine them = without it. I think their chewing parts are exterior. I know it has = antimicrobial properties but so must tree sap. After all, the trees are = under assault all their lives.=20 Just musing, Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 12:50:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 23 Dec 2004 to 24 Dec 2004 (#2004-342) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello fooks. Very best wishes for the holidays and years to come. Re: sugars in propolis Most tree saps contain sugars in varying degrees. Best example maple -- Happy beekeeping, best wishes and God bless. Dr. Rodriguez Proclaiming The Lord´s expression and creation with our honey bees. __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 15:54:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Waggle Subject: Re: Varroa and allogrooming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 18 Nov 1992 17:21:08 -0500, Janko Bozic wrote: >Dear Bee Netters interested in > > VARROA AND ALLOGROOMING BEHAVIOUR > >For last 3 years I have recorded some hours of video recordings about >allogrooming behaviour in carniolan bee. I'm just preparing detailed >quantitative description of allogrooming behaviour.... Hi Janko & All, I’m new to the list! Janko, is this description accessable on the web? Been searching for descriptions of allogrooming behavior for comparison to what I am seeing. I apologize for having to go way back in the archives to 1992 to find the subject title to fit my post in. In a few 'related colonies' am seeing what I believe is a very high degree of allogrooming (vigorous biting in between the tergites, body segments and wing base area by a total of 2 or 3 bees involved cleaning another single bee). Now, I’m NOT seeing this ’grooming dance’ as described by Land & Seeley (discription pasted below). I only detect a pause and slight arching of the bees back which solicits a very rapid response and vigorous grooming within 2 seconds from 2 to 3 other bees. The allogrooming will continue for at least 20 seconds, and the bees participating from a distance at times is indistinguishable from that of fighting bees. They will often be so involved that they will on occasion fall off the bottom board to the ground before ceasing. Frequently, during morning hours with nothing much else to do, hundreds of bees may be observed allogrooming at one time in a impressive display of grooming activity all across the landing boards. Now, I am observing this soliciting and grooming, by watching bees that are on the landing boards, maybe a bee performing the grooming dance on the comb as observed by Seeley might be different. Any vigorous grooming up in the combs 'to the intensity I am seeing' IMO might result in the grooming bees falling down into the bottom of the cavity. But then again, I have noticed that the grooming bees have difficulty un locking their grasp on each other. Perhaps, hooks and barbs of the legs may cause difficulty un-grasping here. Perhaps this may give grooming bees the grip and stabilization needed to stay up on the combs while grooming. Anybody seeing allogrooming in their bees or have comment in this behavour? Seeley Grooming Dance Discription: “The median duration of the grooming dance is rather short (just 8 s) and the probability that a bee that has performed a grooming invitation dance will soon be groomed by a nest mate is remarkably high (0.72). A bee performing the grooming invitation dance stands with her legs spread and tightly gripping the comb while rocking her whole body side-to-side in a plane parallel to the comb. The amplitude of these rocking movements is a bit larger for the abdomen than for the head or thorax, so the bee sweeps out an arc with her side-to-side body movements. The mean duration of the grooming invitation dances are apx 9.3 + or - 1.0 sec. (Land & T. D. Seeley)” :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 22:10:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Bee saliva MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >It's hard to imagine bees with saliva. At the same time it's hard to imagine them without it. The current version of ‘The Hive and the Honey Bee’ (pp. 119-125) has a description of the bee's salivary system. Here’s a bit of info, too, from Eva Cranes’s ‘Bees and Beekeeping’: “....the proboscis is raised to mouth level and is grasped and steadied by the mandibles so that an airtight joint is formed. Liquid food is drawn (sucked) into the mouth through this tube. Solid food such as sugar cannot be imbibed in the same way; it is first moistened with saliva discharged along the interior of the glossa, and scrubbed with the bristly labellum, until some dissolves. The solution is then lifted by the glossa and taken into the food canal.” Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:46:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa and allogrooming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe said: >Anybody seeing allogrooming in their bees or have comment in this behavour? My opinion: I believe allogrooming to be one of the most important traits to select for when searching for the varroa tolerant bee. My experience has been the bees which are the most hygienic are the bees most likely to display allogrooming. I also believe that bees which can tolerate varroa without treatment need a couple other traits as well as allogrooming & hygienic behavior to survive varroa untreated *long term*. Myself and a couple others have got another hypothesis I have never seen voiced before which we are finding in our *bees which tolerate varroa* but will keep to myself until we are sure is a factor. Many researchers lump allogrooming under the heading of Hygienic behavior which I suppose is correct in a crude way. In my opinion the behavior allogrooming could be broken down even farther (and will be in the next decade). The search for the varroa tolerant bee is divided into two main areas and a minor area in my opinion. main areas: 1. selecting the right bee genetics to start the search. 2. applying pressure on the above genetics to improve the line and shorten the search. Minor area ( but of some interest to me) but perhaps the most important to the grant pursuers. 3. the search for the reason certain bees which tolerate varroa (which is the most complicated and difficult area to prove to your peers and perhaps will never be found out for sure) are tolerating varroa and thriving while other lines simply crash after two years untreated. In other words when you have a got a colony (or feral colony) which is tolerating varroa untreated past the two year normal crash time one can not argue with the result. Explaining the result is a bigger problem especially if the result is from a combination of factors *which need in my opinion to be in place for the result to occur*. The varroa tolerant bee is a complex creature which we are only starting to learn about but such a bee exists! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 08:38:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Sandra Repp Subject: Question on wasp allergies... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm very interested in keeping bees, and have a question. My husband is extremely allergic to wasp stings (entire arm swells up, etc.) and is concerned that he might also have the same reaction to honey bee stings. Is there any reason to think this is so, and how would we best find this out (short of getting him stung!). Thanks, Sandy Repp :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:22:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?US-ASCII?Q?Dieter_Schurer?= Subject: AW: [BEE-L] Question on wasp allergies... In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20041227083527.00af05e8@postoffice9.mail.cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my experience, it is very probably, that he will react the same way with a wasp sting. If only his arm swells up, this is not very serious and the swelling will probably get less the more stings he had. Put some vinegar on the sting. There are also very good pills against allergic reactions that he should have available, he might get a sting from any bee or wasp anyway, even if you do not keep bees. If he is really highly allergic, that is when he faints when stung, he should go to see his doctor and get a first aid kit against stings (sort of an injection to carry on him all the time). My wife is also quite allergic against bee stings (and also wasps). But she keeps away from my hives at least about 20 yards and it is very seldom that she gets a sting. Her reaction is not as severe as it used to be when I started beekeeping 3 years ago. So hope you will get the agreement from your husband for this nice hobby! I never regretted it. And there is one big advantage for your husband .... while you are working with your bees, you have no time to find a new boyfriend ... My wife always says, it is better that I have my 100,000 bees with 6 legs each than one with only 2 :-)) regards Dieter Schuerer, Switzerland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 09:52:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Question on wasp allergies... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > extremely allergic to wasp stings (entire arm swells up, etc.)<< 1: I take this as normal allergic, but nothing to fool with. The "extreme" thing begins when the reaction is more than local. Difficulty breathing, sweating, hives all over the body... 2 The wasp has a different toxin than the honey bee. He could be allergic to one and not the other. A physician could probably tell you more about this. He could also do a series of shots in systematic desensitization, even if he is allergic. Hope this helps, Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:30:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Varroa and allogrooming In-Reply-To: <000701c4eb6a$663f4620$36bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Joe said: > >Anybody seeing allogrooming in their bees or have > comment in this > behavour? Here you willl find a Ph.D thesis simpified overview about varroa tolerance mechanisms evaluation performed in Mexico on both EHB and local AHB : http://www.apiservices.com/articles/fr/vandame/index.htm The allogrooming behaviour described and evaluated is very similar to Seeley's description. But its efficiency was not sufficient to explain the tolerance phenomenon. You may use an on-line translator if you do not speak French. > My opinion: > I believe allogrooming to be one of the most > important traits to select for > when searching for the varroa tolerant bee. My > experience has been the bees > which are the most hygienic are the bees most likely > to display > allogrooming. This was a very interesting post. May I ask some further questions ? 1. How do you measure/quantify allogrooming behaviour to correlate with hygienic test (like nitrogene test). 2. What was the correlation performed ? What were the numeric data/results ? > I also believe that bees which can tolerate varroa > without treatment need a > couple other traits as well as allogrooming & > hygienic behavior to survive > varroa untreated *long term*. 3. My - neophyte - undestanding is that allogrooming (or grooming in general) will change two parameters : varroa mean lifespan and varroa lifespan variance (namely lifespan standard deviation). If you change those 2 parameters in a varroa population model, what is the gain ? 4. Subsidiary question : how can one measure/evaluate varroa lifespan standard deviation ? > Myself and a couple others have got another > hypothesis I have never seen > voiced before which we are finding in our *bees > which tolerate varroa* but > will keep to myself until we are sure is a factor. C'est dommage ! > Many researchers lump allogrooming under the heading > of Hygienic behavior > which I suppose is correct in a crude way. I wonder if it is so. In fact, I doubt it is. It seems to me grooming change parameters discussed above while hygienic behaviour change the mean reproductoin rate which has a different weight in the varroa population growth model or am I far afield ? > 3. the search for the reason certain bees which > tolerate varroa (which is > the most complicated and difficult area to prove to > your peers and perhaps > will never be found out for sure) are tolerating > varroa and thriving while > other lines simply crash after two years untreated. 5. This is the reason of my question abot varroa population modeling. What are the modeling parameters of those resistant colonies ? That should help to understand mechanisms involved, shouldn't it ? [...] Explaining the result is a > bigger problem especially > if the result is from a combination of factors > *which need in my opinion to > be in place for the result to occur*. 6. What are those factors ? Hervé the father's reward : playing with his own christmas toys... and his son's christmas toys ! Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:21:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Varroa and allogrooming In-Reply-To: <20041227153019.50796.qmail@web20821.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Hervé Logé wrote: Hello, Thanks for the informative response from yourself and Bob on this fascinating subject! ...The allogrooming behaviour described and evaluated > is very similar to Seeley's description. But its > efficiency was not sufficient to explain the > tolerance > phenomenon. Yes! Not sufficient (as I understand) due to the survival of the mite and ability to quickly climb back on another bee. Perhaps allogrooming such as I am seeing occurring at the perimeter outside the colony in a location such as that any particles removed may by more chance to fall harmlessly to the ground or cavity below. Do you believe Allogrooming and autogrooming are separate, or would they be correlated to a high degree with hygenic, cleanliness and to each other? As definition may suggest them different as Allogrooming or social grooming requires a high degree of communication, whereby a bee solicits grooming from another bee (allogrooming). Autogrooming on the other hand is grooming directed at one's own body. Whereby a bee without assistance from another bee grooms itself (reviewed in Wilson, 1975). ===== Joe Waggle ~ Organic Beekeeper, Derry, PA 'Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' "Using humane and holistic beekeeping methods" ~ 100% Organic ~ Small Cell Beekeeping ~ ~ ORGANIC PITTSBURGH STEELER FAN! ~ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:55:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Ruzicka Subject: Formic Acid as a Repellant for the Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Formic Acid as a Repellant for the Small Hive Beetle Recent tests done in Florida by a German scientist on formic acid and the small hive beetle proved only one thing. These test prove that formic acid, in different applications, in various doses and concentrations, killed everything in the hive other than the small hive beetle. Formic acid does not kill the beetle. However, there was a very important discovery made during regular treatments with MiteGone. It was observed that when acid was present in the hive the beetle tended to leave the hive and then return after the acid was gone. THEORY: The theory behind this observation is that the acid repels the beetle either because the acid smells so bad to that the beetle leaves or because the acid somehow distorts the pheromones that attract the beetles to the hive especially to queen-less hives or hives in distress. DEDUCTION: It may be possible, by emitting a very low dose of formic acid at the bottom board, to repel the beetle from entering the hive. FACTS AND METHOD: We know that one full MiteGone pad will hold 240-250 grams of acid. Laying the pad flat on the bottom board or placed in a tray under a screen bottom board will emit 2-4 grams of acid through the perforations. It will last 2-3 months. A pad placed vertically between the comb and the wall of the hive body standing on the bottom board with a one inch corner cut or mid notch will emit 1.5-2 grams a day and last up to 5 months. VOLUNTEERS WANTED: We need volunteers to test the theory and dosage required. We do not have the beetle in Canada – instead we have a lot of snow – so testing here is not very practical. Please give me a call if you have beetles and want to try repelling them. Thanks, Bill 250-762- 8156. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:20:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa and allogrooming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Hervé & All, First let me say again I am a beekeeper which does a certain amount of research. I do work with other U.S. beekeepers doing similar research and do seek advice from researchers both in the U.S. and in other parts of the world at times. >The allogrooming behaviour described and evaluated is >very similar to Seeley's description. But its efficiency was not sufficient to explain the tolerance phenomenon. Phenomenon is an excellent choice of words! We now know varroa tolerance is real and we know varroa tolerance can be bred for. Five years ago we were not so sure varroa tolerance was real but most of us now believe varroa tolerance is real especially those doing research. A few people still do not believe varroa tolerance bees can be bred. In five years their position will be the unpopular position ( mine is now)as the varroa tolerant bees now being sold in the U.S. will be the proof. >This was a very interesting post. May I ask some further questions ? 1. How do you measure/quantify allogrooming behaviour to correlate with hygienic test (like nitrogene test). I know of no test to evaluate either auto grooming or allogrooming by itself but both can be observed with careful observation and close examination of the floor droppings. Time consuming . "The dead brood times brood removal time" is the accepted hygienic test but has absolutely nothing to do with grooming behavior EXCEPT it is my expierence the hives which rate high in the hygienic behavior test are the hives which do the most grooming *but exceptions to the rule exist*. The ONLY time I would be interested in the above is when choosing a breeder queen. 2. What was the correlation performed ? What were the numeric data/results ? Once you move past breeder queen selection all myself and the beekeepers working with me are interested in is survive / thrive! I will say the hygienic queens we use are held to a higher standard than is common with researchers. We also apply varroa pressure which would wipe out many researchers hives. With all due respect to our research community tossing in a handful of varroa at the start of a 2-3 month trial is NOT varroa pressure! Been a long day! Will work my way through the questions but ponder the above for now! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:12:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Formic Acid as a Repellant for the Small Hive Beetle In-Reply-To: <200412272355.iBRMOKq2003446@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Poor Bees!!!......that the tests prove the acid killed everything in the hive other then the SHB, which it simply made run away in fright for life. Yet we wonder why they swarm! It's a wonder they want to stay in place at all with all today's modern methodology. Certainly cannot be good for internal harmonious relationships between co-existing beneficials, but then maybe that is supposed to be a thing of the past with this style of treatments. Makes one wonder what that is natural is left unhurting. Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 21:24:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Question on wasp allergies... In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20041227083527.00af05e8@postoffice9.mail.cornell .edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-31A1704E; boundary="=======40055E75=======" --=======40055E75======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-31A1704E; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit First, if your husband is "extremely" allergic to wasp venom, then he should see an allergist, and get de-sensitized. Your health insurance will probably cover it... ...our policy covered our daughter when she was de-sensitized to honey bee venom. After the initial episode...where she almost died...we had her tested. Since I had pulled out the stinger, I knew she had been stung by a honey bee. The doctor only tested her for honey bee venom allergy, as wasp venom is a different chemical, and she probably wasn't allergic to that. She probably developed her allergy by being exposed to venom on my clothes, and in my truck...without being stung regularly. So, testing her for allergy to other stinging insects was a waste of time...according to her allergist. She is now able to withstand a sting with no reaction. Mike --=======40055E75=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:46:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Grant Gillard Subject: OA and exposed brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings all, Rather than fight the post-Christmas crowds at the mall and the chilly temperatures, I knocked ten inches of snow off the wood pile, stoked the fireplace and surfed all day. And I didn't even feel guilty! Such days are a gift around here. Lately I've been intrigued with the potential of Oxalic Acid and it's anti-varroa qualities, with particular interest in vaporized OA. I dug through thousands of archived notes in bee-l and beesource. The consensus seems to be OA is not temperature dependent and excellent for seasonally broodless periods. Like other acaricides, it will only catch the phoretic mites (exposed) and not the reproductive mites (sealed in the pupa cell). Thus, the recommendations suggest using OA only in times of broodlessness. And during this time, the results are consistently favorable. But then I thought, "but this is also true of FGMO and other agents that only work on phoretic mites." And for this reason, one shot doesn't have the residual power to kill the next wave of mites that emerge from the pupae cells. Repeat treatments of these other agents are necessary, but there seems to be an unspoken resistance to multiple treatments of OA. If it is suggested to fog FGMO on a weekly schedule, why not OA? What am I missing? My question is this: is there a reason you could not, or should not use vaporized OA when exposed brood (eggs and larvae) is present? Is it merely a resistance to the labor of repeat treatments? From the archives, the adult bees don't seem bothered by OA fumes. Why limit this treatment to broodless periods? And yes, I know it is not an approved miticide, so for now, let's just skip over this matter. Peace and a prosperous new year, Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:42:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Varroa and allogrooming In-Reply-To: <001e01c4ec72$fee899e0$48bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob, > >The allogrooming behaviour described and evaluated > is > >very similar to Seeley's description. But its > efficiency was not sufficient to explain the > tolerance > phenomenon. > I am afraid I was unclear. I was specifically refering to the Vandame's study and varroar resitance phenomenon in his area. In his case, AHB in Mexico, varroa resistance was not due to grooming alone. Hygienic factor was the main reason for varroa population control by bees. But it seems it ws different for AHB in Brasil. So I was not questionning your work. Hervé Just a small hobbyist beekeeper. Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:25:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erwan Cassard Subject: Re: OA and exposed brood In-Reply-To: <20041228144609.84399.qmail@web41527.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Le 28 déc. 04, à 15:46, Grant Gillard a écrit : > > > the adult bees don't seem bothered by OA fumes. Why limit this > treatment to broodless periods? The problem is for the queen who lives severals months (years). Erwan > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:52:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa and allogrooming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >The allogrooming behaviour described and evaluated > is > >very similar to Seeley's description. But its > efficiency was not sufficient to explain the > tolerance > phenomenon. > In his case, AHB in Mexico, varroa resistance was not due to grooming alone. I would say its safe to say all researchers looking at varroa tolerance by bees would agree grooming alone is not enough for the bees to survive varroa long term. I am only going to give my opinion and welcome others opinions. Having not read the study yet I can't be sure of the way the below statements were used in text but will reply directly to the below statement. >Hygienic factor was the main reason for varroa population control by bees. A very broad term which needs broken down further. Did his bees handle varroa as cerana does by removing infested brood or the two types of grooming behavior or all three? >But it seems it ws different for AHB in Brasil. I have said many times on BEE-L that one of the main reasons AHB handle varroa is the constant swarming and abscounding. Each swarm or abscound reduces the varroa load bacause at the time of leaving most varroa is in the brood cells and not on bees. If you understand that *normally* a hive can handle varroa for two years before crashing then you can see the point I make. Swarming & abscounding is a big reduction in varroa load. So I was not questionning your work. I realize you weren't although many do which is ok. I always post honest observations and hope the observations will help others on the list searching for answers to todays tough beekeeping problems. Through Bee-L I have connected with researchers & beekeepers looking for answers to the same questions which has been a big help to me. Also please feel free to disagree with what ever I post you disagree with. I am a vetern of years of heated discussions with other beekeepers in officies, over the phone ,beer joints and at national conventions. Bee-L is for discussion and every opinion on Bee-L is important! >Just a small hobbyist beekeeper. Your knowledge level is far above most hobbyist! Number of hives has little to do with knowledge except the larger the number of cattle, hogs or hives you manage the larger the number of problems you most likely will encounter first hand adding to your direct knowledge of certain subjects. Words of wisdom from my 90 year old first beekeeping mentor talking to me as a teenager: "After God creates a beekeeper he breaks the mold making each beekeeper different and special" "As you follow the beekeeping path you will understand my words" I have lived by the above. I always look forward to meeting beekeepers as I have found each has been different as my mentor said! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:47:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Varroa and sterility In-Reply-To: <20041228154227.73359.qmail@web20821.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Speaking of varroas, if a certain percentage of male does not survive in the cell during reproduction cycle, then there is production of a certain percentage of sterile female varroas. 1. what is their behaviour. Since they are sterile, are they stucked to the phoretic stage ? 2. what is their mean lifespan ? Normal or far shorter, or longer ? 3. what is their lifespan standard deviation ? Hervé Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:11:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?us-ascii?Q?Dieter_Schurer?= Subject: AW: [BEE-L] OA and exposed brood In-Reply-To: <20041228144609.84399.qmail@web41527.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Grant In Switzerland the official beekeeping research center proposes to use OA either in liquid form (drops of OA are put on the combs) or in vapourized form. As the vapor method can be done up to a minimum temperature of approx 5 degrees centigrade, it is recommended for a treatment in November or early December when there is no brood. There is no information of any resistance to OA from Swiss sources and here we probably have the most experience because it is used for several years now. OA is very powerful, it kills nearly all mites when applied during broodless season (I think around 97 %). OA does not give residues within wax or honey. In honey, there are little quantities of OA from nature. BUT ... the first but is it is not to be used several times. It is strongly proposed to use it only once a year, twice at most. The bees are harmed to a small extent and more than one treatment will likely kill to many queens! So there is a big difference to FGMO! FGMO is not poisonous to bees and can - according to Dr. Pedro Rodriguez - be applied many times without harm to the bees. ... the second but is again the problem of harming bees. There are hints, that the treatments are harming the bees, especially the sight. That is why it is only to be used once. The bees then are dying after winter anyway and the new bees for summer did not have an OA treatment and thus are not harmed yet. But we have one bee that overlives the workes, it is the queen. Although the officials say, it does not harm the queen too much, I am not so sure. Many friends here in Switzerland in my region are telling stories of hives that suddenly died in the second year (after the second OA treatment). There is unfortunately no scientific evidence or research of this. I myself will not use either OA nor Formic Acid for these reasons. Both acids are very strong. OA is even dangerous to people, this is why you have to wear a gas mask and goggles when applying it. So what, if OA and FA are a no go for me? I clearly have decided to go with small cells as from next spring on. Until my bees are varroa tolerant, I will use mainly powdered sugar and essential oil of peppermint, both do not have any lethal dosis for bees (meaning you can give them as much as you like and they are not harmed). I will try also as a third method FGMO this spring, as this method also only uses oil that could even be used in food for humans and is not poisonous. This method appeals to me certainly much more than the OA. Hopefully in 3 years, I will be over with the varroa and all the rest of the diseases and mites and bugs (shb) and will not have to use any treatment at all anymore. FINALLY ... even if I do not propose to use OA. If you still want to try it, there are a good vapourizers here in Switzerland that have been developed specially for this purpose. One is using electricity (an auto battery will do) the other using propane. If you want one, I could organize it. Hope I could give you some new thoughts. regards, Dieter Schuerer Switzerland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:37:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa and allogrooming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 2. What was the correlation performed ? What were the numeric data/results ? As I said in earlier post I know of no way to evaluate auto or allo grooming other than by observation. I use a number method for the evaluation with the number one being the highest awarded for grooming behavior and three the lowest in my notations. The time of year is in my opinion important in doing the evaluation. 3. My - neophyte - undestanding is that allogrooming (or grooming in general) will change two parameters : varroa mean lifespan and varroa lifespan variance (namely lifespan standard deviation). If you change those 2 parameters in a varroa population model, what is the gain ? In my *opinion* the varroa / bee relationship is so complex that it would be hard to figure an exact gain figure and the figure would vary from hive to hive. A guess could be made. I asked the same question of my close friend Dann Purvis (Purvis Brothers Apiaries) and he said the gain from grooming behavior is perhaps the most valuable single gain for the hive in varroa tolerance. 4. Subsidiary question : how can one measure/evaluate varroa lifespan standard deviation ? I am not sure. Perhaps Zach or Medhat might tackle the question. I said: > Myself and a couple others have got another > hypothesis I have never seen > voiced before which we are finding in our *bees > which tolerate varroa* but > will keep to myself until we are sure is a factor. We are observing the bees which are the most healthiest and varroa tolerant use and collect the most propolis. Now this could be a coincidence and have no merit. We are taking a closer look. I said: > Many researchers lump allogrooming under the heading > of Hygienic behavior > which I suppose is correct in a crude way. I wonder if it is so. In fact, I doubt it is. I am listening! It seems to me grooming change parameters discussed above while hygienic behaviour change the mean reproductoin rate which has a different weight in the varroa population growth model or am I far afield ? I agree with your conclusion. I think you are agreeing that if one looks closer then one needs to seperate grooming from removing infested varroa from cells. At the present time when I speak with researchers they always lump grooming and removing infested larva under the heading of Hygienic behavior. I doubt they will change because you and I think they should but perhaps a few researchers on BEE-L will comment on why they think the behavior should continue under the general term "hygienic behavior". I said: > 3. the search for the reason certain bees which > tolerate varroa (which is > the most complicated and difficult area to prove to > your peers and perhaps > will never be found out for sure) are tolerating > varroa and thriving while > other lines simply crash after two years untreated. 5. This is the reason of my question abot varroa population modeling. What are the modeling parameters of those resistant colonies ? Survival and thriving without treatment is the parameter. Putting thousands of hives in production with survivor queens in order to find the best survivor queen to use as a breeder queen. >That should help to understand mechanisms involved, shouldn't it ? I really do not care to understand all the mechanisms involved . At this point if a hive in the untreated /survivor hives becomes over come with varroa (happens now around 1-2 %) the hive is culled. I believe these hives occur due to supercedure and open mating with a drone from a hobbyist yard which has bees with zero varroa tolerance. We believe we have found the right combination of genetics and are now fine tuning the line. [...] Explaining the result is a > bigger problem especially > if the result is from a combination of factors > *which need in my opinion to > be in place for the result to occur*. 6. What are those factors ? Genetics is the key. Most of the factors involved have been defined and researched. Bringing the traits together in the correct combination through breeding is the problem. Applying varroa pressure provides the proof the combination provides not only mite tolerance but survival of the resultant line of bees. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::