From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:35:37 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.0 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B48BE48122 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEVNig013404 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0501B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 135300 Lines: 2998 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:05:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: OA and exposed brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by DronebeeR@NETSCAPE.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove excessive quotes. ----------------- Original message (ID=982227CF) (85 lines) ------------------- Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 07:24:20 -0500 From: DronebeeR@netscape.net (Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez) To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: RE: BEE-L Digest - 6 Jan 2005 to 7 Jan 2005 (#2005-8) Regarding the mechanism of action of FGMO on honey bee parsitic mites: It is not necessary to compare/contrast FGMO with other forms of treatment. FGMO acts mechanically on mites depriving them of vital biologic needs and definitely, it does not affect capped larvae. In my 11 years working with FGMO, I have not observed any effect on uncapped larvae either. The same observation applies to adult bees, drones and queens: no adverse effects at all as long as FGMO is applied in the format described consecutively in the protocol that I have developed. Of course, FGMO will definitely kill bees if it is applied in large dropplets by whichever form or applied directly on bees. Very best regards and God bless. Dr. Rodriguez -- Proclaiming The Lord´s expression and creation with our honey bees. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:58:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: IPM Plan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let it be known that I am an exterminator first and a beekeeper second, and new to beekeeping at that. My opinions are my own, and to be kept in this context. With that said, let me share with you my thoughts on IPM management of honey bees. IPM management of pests is what I do for a living. It starts with a study of the pest and ends with a plan to put stress on it at every opportunity. An IPM plan involving parasites of Honey Bees is intriguing for me. Let it be self evident that Varroa mites are unnaturally present in the US, that a naturally occurring parasite does not normally kill its host, that through natural selection eventually these two insects will find there own equilibrium in nature, that anything we can do to help this process would be more helpful in the long term that trying to keep the weak hosts alive. In the long term, the answer is letting the sick bees die, rather than let them continue to contribute to the gene pool. Let is also be self evident that a large American industry is dependent on pollinators, that we do not have time to wait for nature to catch up, that we need a plan to keep the bees healthy, that this plan should include the current need for the bees and the long term need for better bees. For what I have read and understand about Varroa, they are more damaging to our bees than their natural host for a variety of reasons, the differences between the two bees include hygienic behavior, pheromone, and life cycle lengths. Some variables can be manipulated easily, others cannot. An IPM plan would assault and stress Varroa, preventing it from completing its own life cycle. Given is accelerated life cycle when compared to its host, I expect the economic threshold for treatment is lower than normally accepted. When Varroa is detected, it already has a strong foothold in an environment where its population will rise unchecked. An IPM plan should start with a zero tolerance for treatment, treatment should be constant, protecting the hive and preventing the spread of Varroa. Starting with my own plan, would have to start with the hive itself. I will start with a new Lanstroth hive consisting of medium supers for hive bodies and fresh wax foundation. These choices are more personal than professional, due to the location of my hives and the desire to eliminate all old resides of past chemical treatments. (We live in an age where science can detect a pesticide in honey to one part in a trillion, I feel it is just a matter of time before a pesticide is found in domestic honey and new laws will formed to eradicate it. My suggestion to all is to melt down your brood comb before it happens.) I cannot dispute the value of the Lanstroth design because we keep coming back to it. There is little that can be done that will stress Varroa and not stress the bees. I will however make a point to increase ventilation, using a screened bottom board and leave a top feeder on year round. I will also drill holes in the bodies and install movable covers and install robber screens. Small cell foundation maybe a benefit, but this not part of my plan. It is one goal of mine to flood the air with drones from good, healthy hives. I feel this would benefit my local feral colonies, my own colonies and maybe slow the spread of Africanized bees when they eventually find their way to the Northeast. I will encourage or install drone comb and freeze it frequently from my weaker hives. I will not scrape out all of the propolis out of the hive. I believe it is there to benefit the bees, creating an environment more natural to them than a pine box that will naturally inhibit the growth of all parasites and other organisms. As for actual Varroa treatment, it is not in my plan to put anything into my hives that I would not put into my own mouth. It is my intention to manipulate the bees own hygienic behaviors to their own advantage. My thoughts are that during inspections I will install cotton cords soaked in Food Grade Mineral Oil (FGMO) and/or dust the hives heavily with powered sugar. Neither of which should effect the honey, but will severally stress the Varroa mites and force the bees to clean up. I need to read up more on wintergreen oil, I may lace the sugar and/or FGMO if I can figure a safe and effective level or formulation. I'd like to try wintergreen in the feeder and brood patties if possible. Formic acid pads sound promising, if we can get them. Don't get me wrong, I would be more than happy to pop a couple of strips in the hive and call it a day. While I am working on this, my thought was not to stay organic, the plan just keeps coming back to it. I am very interested hearing what everyone else's IPM plan is. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:43:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: IPM Plan In-Reply-To: <85.1e9a63f6.2f11a381@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I am very interested > hearing what everyone else's IPM plan is. Hello, My IPM is 'small cell' & 'ferals'. Bees thriving, and ZERO treatments since 2002. If I may comment on your wish to have your drones mate with the feral population. 'Mature survivor' feral colonies that I have examined are generally of small cell size to some degree. Small cell may help you with this goal. There is a citation that suggests assortative mating (small drones preferring mating with small queens, and large preferring mating with large) in honeybee drones. "It is possible that differential mechanical and tactile cues resulted in assortative mating by drones. The drone's first two pairs of legs grasp the model abdomen dorsally, while the last pair of legs grasp it laterally and ventrally (Gary and Marston, 1971). Small drones may have been unable to grasp the larger OD models properly in order to copulate successfully, or they may not have received the proper tactile stimuli for copulation to be elicited. The same might be said of large drones mating with small OD models." (Coelho & Taylor) ===== Joe Waggle ~ Organic Beekeeper, Derry, PA 'Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' "Using humane and holistic beekeeping methods" ~ 100% Organic ~ Small Cell Beekeeping ~ ~ ORGANIC PITTSBURGH STEELER FAN! ~ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:48:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: IPM Plan In-Reply-To: <85.1e9a63f6.2f11a381@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jim Hock writes: I am very interested hearing what everyone else's IPM plan is. Reply: Small Cell, Housel Positioning of combs, and zero tolerance for ALL treatments including soft chemicals of essential oils, FGMO, and acids. Also no artificial feeds. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:45:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: OA and exposed brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. Rodriguez said: The same observation applies to adult bees, drones and queens: no adverse effects at all as long as FGMO is applied in the format described consecutively in the protocol that I have developed. Reports have been coming in of beekeepers fogging sheep dip into the hive using your method. What would your opinion be of fogging fluvalinate into the hive? Am I being unrealistic to be shocked by the method? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:28:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: OA and exposed brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/8/2005 1:57:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU writes: The same observation applies to adult bees, drones and queens: no adverse effects at all as long as FGMO is applied in the format described consecutively in the protocol that I have developed. Of course, FGMO will definitely kill bees if it is applied in large dropplets by whichever form or applied directly on bees. Greetings Dr. Rodriguez, Just some technical questions. Does large dropplet FGMO kill the bee because the oil blocks the spiricals? I have another fogging device that uses compressed air to deliver a .5 mircon sized dropplet, could this device be used as well? Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:04:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 7 Jan 2005 to 8 Jan 2005 (#2005-9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings to all. I am elated with the recent trend of contibutions to this forum. As I have suggested many times, all of us are in need of pooling our resources to arrive at manageable conditions to deal with paraitic mites. It seems that all of us have the same interest, however, we seem to depart away from each other when it comes to solutions. Hopefully, an agreeable to all(?) situation will develop resulting in benefits to beekeeping in particular and humanity in general. Yes, I have heard of many and diversified attempts at mite control (fogging pesticides into the hive, for instance) tried by innovative and some desperate beekeepers trying to keep from losing their bees. The bad side of these attempts is that they end up losing their bees, money spent and their faith in those of us who are trying to find reasonable economic means for them. Fogging pesticides directly into the hive leads to several undesirable conditions: contamination of your wax, honey and other hive contents; direct kill of your bees; enhanced mite resistance due to minute pesticide release from the pesticides that become permanently inbbeded in your wax and equipment; weakening/death of the bee population increases mite population; and furthermore mite resistance worsens. Fluvalinate has been proven for many years to be one the most resistance provoking chemicals used against honey bee mites. I have tested fluvalinate in my own hives and found that it did not affect the mites in those hives at all. Fogging fluvalinate, and in time, just about any of the pesticides presently in use will not be effective against mites due to development of resistance by the mites. Fogging with FGMO has proven beyond doubt to be effective against honey bee mites. I have only used the Burgess fogger (advertised to reduce the dropplet size to ca. 15 micra, hence I can not give opinions for other types of foggers. Only concientious research can answer the question posed of the fogger that reduces fog size to .5 micra. I would be hesitant to try reducing the size of the dropplet to lesser sizes than already proved to be effective thinking that it might reach a point in which it will not block the spiracles of the mites. I wholeheartedly agree with zero tolerance for mites. In my FGMO presentations and writings, I always emphazise my belief that one mite is one mite too many within a hive because of the rate at which mites multiply. This belief is exemplified by the graph I used in my January 2005 issue of ABJ ("after 120 days 48,828,125 mites have been reproduced"). This is the REAL reason why bee hives are collapsing these days! May The Lord guide us all in search of solutions for this pest. Dr. Rodriguez -- Proclaiming The Lord´s expression and creation with our honey bees. __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:58:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: IPM Plan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/8/2005 11:27:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, deelusbybeekeeper@YAHOO.COM writes: Reply: Small Cell, Housel Positioning of combs, and zero tolerance for ALL treatments including soft chemicals of essential oils, FGMO, and acids. Also no artificial feeds. Did you ever have mites, beetles, etc? Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:13:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: IPM Plan In-Reply-To: <1e8.32242535.2f131128@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jim Hock: Did we ever have mites? Reply: Badly. Both trachael and varroa, and melted down whole outfit twice over it, and retooled thru two major regressions down in size, to overcome problems of mites and accompanying secondary diseases. As for beetles, not concerned. Consider beetles everywhere also and don't have time to look as bees are fine. Our major concerns are breaking this long, ongoing drought out here in desert southwest, and animal (4 legged/ 2 legged predators). Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:59:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Zero Tolerance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I wholeheartedly agree with zero tolerance for mites. In > my FGMO presentations and writings, I always emphazise > my belief that one mite is one mite too many within a > hive because of the rate at which mites multiply. Interesting. This is the antithesis to the IPM approach. IPM recommends tolerating and monitoring pests until they reach, or threaten to reach, an economic threshold. What is interesting -- to those of us who actually monitor -- is the fact that very often the pests, although present, may not -- over fairly long timespans -- increase in numbers sufficiently to merit treatment. In my case, 18 months! Treatment is costly and always harmful to the bees themselves. In some cases, only slightly so, but more often, measurably. Some treatments are less hard on the hives than others, but, IMO, the less intervention, the better. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:13:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: OA and exposed brood Comments: cc: Bob Harrison In-Reply-To: <000c01c4f5b2$4ac7ac00$44bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Mr. Harrison Said: Reports have been coming in of beekeepers fogging sheep dip into the hive using your method. Would you let us know: What is sheep dip? medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:27:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: OA and exposed brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reports have been coming in of beekeepers fogging sheep dip into the hive > using your method. What would your opinion be of fogging fluvalinate into > the hive? Am I being unrealistic to be shocked by the method? Well, actually, we can't really blame this on Dr. Pedro. California beekeepers experimented with oil fog (and anything else you can imagine, and more) for tracheal mites, long before Dr. Rodriguez ever decided to try a fogger. It was actually because I had heard of the attempts in California that I suggested he try a Burgess fogger when the paper strips he was using initially did not work out as well as hoped. For that matter, in eastern Europe, beekeepers were fogging fluvalinate into hives for varroa control before we even knew much about varroa. When varroa was first hitting here in North America, the Quebec beekeepers had a link, on their own website, to an European site which described the process, complete with pictures, but decided to remove it after some debate as to the wisdom of the process. allen Still in Tucson :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:47:51 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: OA sprayer or atomizer. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have read very interesting information on spraying bees with oxalic acid to kill varroa. Can someone recommend a proper sprayer or atomizer (as mentioned in European web pages) for the US? Can a regular hand sprayer do a good job? The dose is 3-5 ml per frame of (broodless) bees. Thank you. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:20:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Foggy about sheep dip MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bob Harrison wrote he's heard of "fogging sheep dip into the hive". Bob, what exacly are these rumors? I haven't heard them, dunno as I want to, but I'm curious. First off, what exactly is sheep dip? And then I may have lost the thread. It was originally oxalic fogging, but may have included or become discussion of the Burgess Fogger? So what I'm reading are possible allusions to "sheep dip(?)" being Burgess fogged to control varroa?!?!! Aaron Morris - thinking "Say it ain't so!" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:54:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: OA and exposed brood Comments: To: Medhat.Nasr@gov.ab.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Medhat & All, Mr. Harrison Said:=20 Reports have been coming in of beekeepers fogging sheep dip into the = hive using your method.=20 Would you let us know: What is sheep dip?=20 I have always made a practice of leaving brand names off bee-L to keep = those beekeepers which would be foolish enough to try and use such = methods from getting the information and also those beekeepers telling = other beekeepers they learned of the method from a post on BEE-L by Bob = Harrison. =20 "Sheep dip" is beekeeper slang for three common liquid chemicals used in = agriculture which use the three chemicals registered in the U.S. in the = two current available strips (Apistan & checkmite) and the one pulled = from use because of hive killings in Florida. According to Jeff Pettis of the Beltsville bee lab the misuse of the = Checkmite illegal formula created the "super varroa" and is the most = serious reason for wax contamination of brood comb. All those reading = this post which have used the illegal formula you need to replace your = comb. All those which used the other two illegal formulas you helped create = the "super varroa" by under dosing or overdosing in some cases and most = likely have got serious brood wax contamination problems. Now those of you which used Apistan & checkmite according to label are = not out of the woods. Jeff is also recommending you replace your combs = also but in a rotation over say the next five years. In all fairness to Jeff and the bee labs they only got the mass spec = machines recently so were unaware of the serious wax contamination = caused by chemical strip use until the Florida problem of a few years = ago. Jeff will show slides *I have been told* at the ABF convention this week = and I imagine he showed slides of wax contamination at the AHPA = convention last week. A friend saw the brood wax contamination slides at = the Georgia beekeepers meeting in 2004 when Jeff was a speaker and said = the room got real silent when the slides were shown!=20 Blanket treating for varroa has help put us in the situation we find = ourselves in. Tens of thousands of dollars have been wasted by = commercial beekeepers on chemicals they may have not needed only because = they did not test first. The first rule of IPM is test and treat as = needed! Tens of thousands of dollars are wasted every year by growers using the = highest dose possible ( got to kill all possible pests) and doing = needless damage to the workers and environment spraying for every pest = known to man. This spring soybean growers in areas which have not even got "soybean = rust" will start blanket spraying this spring to the delight of chemical = companies. Ads are already running on agriculture programs. Beekeepers = are afraid of bee kills in areas of soybeans sprayed for soybean rust! Got to get back to the shop now as we are completing frames & foundation = for the spring cull for the third year in a row! Sincerely, Bob Harrison =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:38:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: 2-Heptanone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To my mind, the most interesting bit of info I gleaned at the AHPA meeting is that the Carl Hayden lab has been testing 2-Heptanone as a potential bee repellent. It seems that 2-Heptanone kills varroa without affecting the bees noticeably. 2-Heptanone is a food additive (blue cheese flavour/smell ingredient) and so should be acceptable in beehives. The problem is that it is very volatile and would be "gone in 60 seconds". Therefore the ARS is working on a micro-encapsulation process to form time-release strips that can be laid on a top bar. The strips are being designed to last the duration of treatment period, but be fully consumed by the bees by the end of that time, thus eliminating the need to go back to remove anything. Several herbal products are being tested and formulated for use against AFB as well. The liquid protein diet is still under development. It required a reformulation after the first tests, but is now stable and able to stay fresh for long periods. Hopefully this product will reach market in volume before too long. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:16:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think there may be a typo in your post: "...the Carl Hayden > lab has been testing 2-Heptanone as a potential bee repellent". > > Bee repellent or mite repellent? They were testing 2-Heptanone as a _bee_ repellent to mix with insecticides to keep bees from visiting freshly sprayed areas, when they discovered 2-Heptanone was killing varroa. Aha! allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:41:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Addendum Oh, and maybe I should add that it did not prove to be a very good bee repellent, and it does not stick around, either. It flashes off instantly. But it seems to be lethal to varroa mites. Thus the microencapsulation idea. As I said, too, the product is still under testing, but is promising enough to show to the beekeeper groups. Stay tuned. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:44:49 -0500 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Sheep Dip, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you have not heard of the sheep dip treatment, it means you haven't talked to enough migratory beekeepers. (Or, and equally likely, they are not willing to tell you what they are doing because they don't want it reported on a list such as this.) There are a number of products out there that are approved for treatment of mites. AFAIK, most or all of them are organophosphates as all mites quickly develop resistance to the tamer stuff. The migratory guys experiment with it. Does it kill hives? Does it kill mites? I have heard of stuff all the way from products approved for apples to products approved for cattle and sheep. Mostly ordinary garden sprayers are used, sometimes on the bees on top bars and sometimes on the landing board. I know of one 'method' that involves making ones own 'strips'. Hives with just about total resistance to fluvalinate and coumaphous are being kept alive with these methods. At least one very large packer is testing every load for the products they know about. This packer has told his largest customers that the honey will be returned if it 'tests positive'. I have not heard of any returns. Does this mean the alternative treatments are being used responsibly? Or is that a oxymoron? Perhaps more to the point, why aren't our national organizations and/or the USDA funding crash programs to get beekeepers treatments that are effective? -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:32:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: shilliff@JUNO.COM Subject: betterway vinegar fogger Comments: To: LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone had any experience with vinegar fogging for mite control? Thanks Nick :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:17:05 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: antibiotics and wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Antibiotic residues have recently been found in a large number of honey = sample tested by the state laboratory in Cyprus. There appears to be = some confusion about wether sulphonamide antibiotics are absorbed by wax = in combs and can then leach out to contaminate fresh honey. I would = really appreciate any information/comments that list members would care = to make. =20 Best regards Roger White Superbee Cyprus. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:16:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: 2-Heptanone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Allen Dick wrote: > ... Carl Hayden lab has been testing 2-Heptanone as a > potential bee repellent. > > It seems that 2-Heptanone kills varroa without affecting the bees > noticeably. So where are they going with this? Kill the Varroa (a good thing) AND repel the bees? Seems yet again that we're only half way there. Aaron Morris - thinling the glass is half full! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:32:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: 2-Heptanone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > They were testing 2-Heptanone as a _bee_ repellent to mix > with insecticides > to keep bees from visiting freshly sprayed areas, when they > discovered > 2-Heptanone was killing varroa. I still see a half full glass here. So, the 2-Heptanone will kill varroa, but it repels the bees. How does this help? I'm imagining no Varroa on bees who can't stand being around themselves and blue cheese honey! Now there's a varietal honey I never thought about! Guess I'll have to stay tuned.... Aaron Morris - regrets missing the national meetings! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:42:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: OA and exposed brood In-Reply-To: <001301c4f72c$b25d57e0$59bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > What is sheep dip? > >...I have always made a practice of leaving brand names off bee-L to keep those beekeepers which would be foolish enough to try and use such methods... Excellent practice Bob! I remember some beek's 'making their own strips' during the late 90's. It failed those who have tried it, and have heard some reports of beekeepers getting ill. Very dangerous, also a known carcinogen. "Farmers who say exposure to the dips has affected their health complain of symptoms including excessive tiredness, headaches, limb pains, disturbed sleep, poor concentration, mood changes, and thoughts of suicide." (BBC News, July 1, 1999) ===== Joe Waggle ~ Organic Beekeeper, Derry, PA 'Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' "Using humane and holistic beekeeping methods" ~ 100% Organic ~ Small Cell Beekeeping ~ GO STEELERS!!! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:38:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: betterway vinegar fogger In-Reply-To: <20050110.133308.-111249.2.shilliff@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii shilliff@JUNO.COM wrote: Has anyone had any experience with vinegar fogging for mite control? Reply: It is my understanding that the vinegar in question is not the 5% grocery store vinegar, but 20%, and it's very caustic to beekeepers. Where one obtains this level of acidity in their vinegar is my question. Grant jackson, MO --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:41:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/10/2005 12:19:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: All those which used the other two illegal formulas you helped create the "super varroa" by under dosing or overdosing in some cases and most likely have got serious brood wax contamination problems. "Super Varroa" was inevitable and clearly evident from the pest strips advertising when it stated it was "98% effective." That sounded like a good claim until you realize that the remaining 2% survived because they had a natural immunity. That 2% lived to have offspring that was even more resistant. When you repeat the process you eventually end up with 100% immunity. Having more choices of treatments and rotating them, using them only when needed would have slowed the process, but the end result would eventually be the same. Over application is a common mistake, when the pesticide starts to loose its effectiveness. Over application will not kill a bug faster. A lethal dose is a lethal dose, and if the bug is immune that dose probably will not be reached without killing the bees first. An over application will generally make a pesticide residual last much longer than expected, however. Comparing Super Varroa to the current city German Cockroach is a good example. Cockroaches became immune to organophosphates ten years ago. We found a bait that killed almost 100%, less than 1% didn't die because they refused to eat it. Now we have a cockroach that is organophosphate resistant and bait shy. Our mistake was to treat with the bait alone. To chemically conquer the bug the treatments need to be rotated and frequently changed altogether. A new chemical treatment will only put a Band-Aid on the problem and buy a little more time. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:35:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Vermont Beekeepers Association Winter Meeting Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1253354; boundary="=======44837495=======" --=======44837495======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1253354; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If anybody is in the area on January 25th, you may want to attend the VBA's annual winter meeting. I know it is a Tuesday, but it is tradition to hold our winter meeting on the first day of the Vermont Farm Show. See: http://www.vtbeekeepers.org/vba_005.htm Our speakers will include Jean-Pierre Chapleau, from St. Adrienne de Ham, Quebec, Canada. Among other things, JP will be talking about his breeding program. He has received a grant from the Canadian Government to study breeding queen bees from colonies with low daily mite drop. The link doesn't seem to be working this morning, but when it does... You can see his profile at: www.reinschapleau.wd1.net-index.html Come enjoy some good bee chat, and a pot luck lunch. Mike President/VBA --=======44837495=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:41:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Resistant bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I am new to using this "Bee-L" network so forgive me if I am addressing something that has already been beaten into the dirt. I am sure you know of the Weavers in Texas. I went out and visited them a few years back and have been ordering queens form them now for a few years. When they claim they havent treated in 3+ years,. I flat believe them. I have recently read about others who have breeding successfully against varroa (Purvis?), and as for me , i have a queen who for three years has not had any type of treatment WHATSOEVER and shows no sign of any varroa infestation(less than 5%). I hope she makes it through the winter so I might do more grafting off of her. What is odd about this is that I had selected her as a breeding queen because of the high honey production,extreme gentleness,and low propolis or burr comb(non existent)...It was only on a lark so to speak that I didnt treat her hive..and as mite levels continued to be low(less than 5% brood infestation at any time of year) I continued not to treat. I plan on placing her progeny in a yard culled of "high count varroa hives"and saturated with some untreated Weaver hives to see where it goes from here. Isnt it exciting to think along the line of beekeping practices that require little or no treatment for varroa?My hope and desire is that that will be the case on a widespread basis in the not so distant future. Best wishes and God bless you John Horton :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:35:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jim & All, Thanks to Jim for his educational post! Although similar posts are in the Bee-l archives it never hurts to cover the topic again especially when the topic is under discussion. Thanks again Jim! The U.S. beekeeping industry is a very small industry compared to other industries when trying to get a chemical registered. We would never have had either Apistan or Checkmite if not for the efforts of a small number of beekeepers and several owners of beekeeping supply houses. I had been involved in the beekeeping industry around 25 years when the first tracheal mite was found in the U.S. in the mid 80's. I was in the first heated debates over putting a chemical strip in a bee hive. We were told the risks by our researchers. Now we are about to the end of the period of chemical strip use. The strips are not reliable now in most areas of the U.S. Use with care and make sure the strips are working regardless of your area in the U.S. Now that brood nest wax contamination levels are causing serious problems to the bees (not yet a problem of honey contamination reports packers which are testing) which is showing up in many areas as about half of normal honey production and poor pollination results. What I am about to write many will find startling .Possibly never spoken by a beekeeper before. Growers judge the pollination abilities of a pollination hive simply on the number of bees/frames. I have seen in California and other places strong hives of bees acting like in a stupor when hives of other beekeepers are flying full blast pollinating. Many on the list may not have seen hives in orange, apple or almond groves in bloom but on a nice day a hive which is not flying is rare (at least used to be). After several years of pondering the problem the conclusion I believe is the same as many researchers see in apiaries tested with chemicals. The bees simply are overwhelmed by chemicals from contaminated brood comb wax and forget to forage and even forget the way back to the hive! Jim said: A new chemical treatment will only put a Band-Aid on the problem and buy a little more time. A new chemical version of an old chemical now in use is in the works I was told a couple months ago by one of the largest bee supply houses in the U.S.. The old version was the worst wax contaminator we have seen so far so I asked about wax contamination. The dealer just shrugged his shoulders and said the strip which will kill the super varroa is what the industry wants. The new strip is as Jim says simply a band-aid and not the answer to our situation! We need real solutions. Sadly voices like mine, Dennis Muriel, Dee Lusby, Medhat N., Zach H., Dr. Pedro R, and many bee lab researchers are not being heard. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:46:51 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, If my little voice may be heard; > We need real solutions. Sadly voices like mine, Dennis Muriel, Dee Lusby, > Medhat N., Zach H., Dr. Pedro R, and many bee lab researchers are not being > heard. > Maybe it is because none of the voices above are unified in the mission of keeping bees without any treatments at all. It is not unlike human nature for individuals to have different opinions and their own way of doing things. I only know of one in your list above that is keeping bees successfully commercially without any treatments at all. With this persons success there is little money to be made by chemical companies, supply houses, or bee research labs. Money talks and the solution only makes money for the beekeeper. It is time for the beekeeper to begin keeping bees for themselves instead of having others do the things it will take to keep bees alive. I only know of one person in your list above doing this and this person is teaching others how to do it without the greed or the need to make money teaching it or sharing it. There is no need for patented Queens, treatments or fancy apparatus to keep bees alive, all that is needed is for beekeepers to learn how to keep bees as they were kept over 100 years ago. Disclaimer; MLO. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:20:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, Keith said: Maybe it is because none of the voices above are unified in the mission of keeping bees without any treatments at all. Bees can not survive the ravages of varroa without some beekeeper help be it varroa tolerant queens (best choice by far) , small cell , IPM methods etc. Keith said: It is not unlike human nature for individuals to have different opinions and their own way of doing things. All the people on my list want the same thing but are pursuing different methods. Medhat formic acid and Zach biology of varroa. I list Dee & Dr. Pedro because both are very sincere in their efforts to get beekeepers off the chemical treadmill. Sure I have had heated discussions with both on Bee-L but consider both friends and more like than unlike in our beliefs! Keith said: I only know of one in your list above that is keeping bees successfully commercially without any treatments at all. What about me? Keith said: I only know of one person in your list above doing this and this person is teaching others how to do it without the greed or the need to make money teaching it or sharing it. What about me Keith? I wrote two articles in order to share information (American Bee Journal & Bee Culture January 2005). Surely you don't think I would take time out of my busy day to write for the money? Did Dee write her article on small cell for Bee Culture for the money? I don't think so! How about a small cell update Dee? Keith said: There is no need for patented Queens, Apparently you are alone in your thinking as Purvis is booked through July 2005. Slipping in a varroa tolerant queen is the easiest , cheapest and fastest solution to a varroa problem. We used the Purvis brothers Gold Line queens last year and raised queens from same and the daughters open mated to our lines were as near as we can tell as varroa tolerant as the queen mothers bees. Sadly after years of comb contamination from chemical strips comb will need to be removed from many hives to get our bees up too full health ( a point all on my list agree on!) *which* is a plus for those pushing small cell because if you need to replace comb and are willing to spend the labor then small cell is not as costly as comb needs replaced anyway. Small cell plastic is 1.80 U.S. a sheet (Dadant 2004 catalog) which limits the commercial beekeepers interest when he can by plastic sheets at a third of the price with regular cells (which I consider the correct size). Keith said: treatments or fancy apparatus to keep bees alive, all that is needed is for beekeepers to learn how to keep bees as they were kept over 100 years ago. If a good point exists about varroas arrival it is all the new discoveries which have been made since the arrival of varroa about our honey bees around the world by researchers and beekeepers. I believe I have got the largest collection of old bee books in the Midwest and enjoy reading books of a 100 years ago and on occasion quote from same. I have NEVER found an answer to todays tough beekeeping problems in the old books. As always I hope we "can agree to disagree" Keith and have missed your posts on Bee-L. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:57:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: OA sprayer or atomizer. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/01/2005 05:11:28 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes:> > I have read very interesting information on spraying bees with oxalic acid > to kill varroa. Can someone recommend a proper sprayer or atomizer (as > mentioned in European web pages) for the US? Can a regular hand sprayer do a good > job? The dose is 3-5 ml per frame of (broodless) bees. > I have successfully dribbled OA from a large graduated syringe at the rate described along each seam of bees. This was done without the need to remove frames from the hives. The amount of mites it brought down was greater than predicted my the model based on the fall preceding treatment. It must therefore be relatively successful. Chris > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:02:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Excessive quotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi Folks, It's a new year and it's been a long time since I sent out a reminded about the guidelines for posting to BEE-L. The very first guideline regarding posting to BEE-L is, "Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions." Computer storage utilization at the University at Albany is increasingly a sore subject. In a University environment, students are wont to "over utilize" resources storing music files and photographs, and the Sysadmins are constantly battling to keep wasteful practices in check. LISTSERV Archives do not escape scrutiny. Quoting previously posted material is simply a wastful habit. I cannot justify huge archives filled with multiple copies of repeated conversations. "If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point." I cannot state this more clearly. Also, PLEASE NOTE that when one quotes a little bit of a previous post and then makes a response, and then quotes a little more of a previous post and then adds a response, and then quotes a little more of a previous post and adds a response, .... , when the response is finally submitted it includes the ENTIRITY of the previous response. There's no sneaking around the fact that QUOTES IS QUOTES!! Excessive quotes waste valuable resources and excessive quotes negatively impact archive searches. "Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice." I realize that the periodic reminder about excessive quotes contradicts "rejected without comment or notice" but it seems that the occasional reminder is necessary. The full guidelines for posting to BEE-L can be reviewed at: http://honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm Aaron Morris - thinking quotes is quotes PS: Happy New Year all! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:03:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Subject: spreadsheets I have spent the last hour going through the archives, and following links, but to no avail. I found a post where someone was working on excel spreadsheets (I lost the link, but will look again, and reply directly). So, if anyone has, or can provide a link to excel spreadsheets for management, it would be a great help. I strated to do my own, but realized that someone on this list (most assuradly smarter than me) has probably already done this, and hope to avoid duplicationg the effert. BTW< anyone heard from Tim Arheit lately? Thanks...JK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:10:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Subject: Spreadsheets/ Yards.xls Comments: To: Jerry Bromenshenk Here is the copy of the reference to the spreadsheet I was referring to. Does anyone know of any work on this? THanks...JK On Sun, 5 Oct 1997 19:26:09 -0400, Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: "...If anyone would like to brainstorm some computer-based programs ... But spreadsheets are powerful tools...." :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:38:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I’m still wondering over the question raised a couple of weeks back. Exactly what are these super varroa? Do they build faster, or do they not respond to treatment. Also, doesn’t it generally take a year or so for mites to build to damaging levels? If the question was answered and I wasn’t paying attention, then my apologies. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:01:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: [Bee-L] Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by bob.russell@PARADISE.NET.NZ to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to correct the URL to his pictures. ----------------- Original message (ID=3B38A4B2) (80 lines) ------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:35:07 +1300 From: Bob Russell Subject: Re:[Bee-L] Super Varroa To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Message-id: <001001c4f84f$550f7e00$9706f6d2@russell> To Bob Harrison,John Horton and all Your postings hit a nerve with me when reading them this morning on Bee-L and I would like to respond. Resistant bees are in the hands of the beekeeper. We in New Zealand will have had varroa 5 years this April. This will be year 5 of my resistant bee project. At the end of the day all we want is bees resistant to varroa together with high honey yields without contamination together with practical methods to overcome reinvasion, whether biotechnical or a soft treatment. Great to see Bob Harrison making mention of the short list of names. I would like to nominate Alois Wallner to be added to that list. There will be a great number working towards varroa resistant bees which can be done by all beekeepers. All the ingredients are in the genes and in most beekeepers yards there for the finding. Once found and breed from it's contagious for want of a word to describe it. Last year I completed 3 years study of Dr.Pedro's Rodriguez's 11 years FGMO (Food Grade Mineral Oil) research. Why? Because I wanted a soft treatment that would be innocuous, that was not temperature reliant, food grade and that would only enhance and my project with resistant bees to name a few. This work I used to initiate the approval of FGMO to treat bees. We have a very strict approval process for products used to treat or control pests and diseases in New Zealand beehives. Dr. Rodriguez was invited to New Zealand as a guest speaker at our National Beekeepers conference in July, 2004 and met with hundreds of beekeepers during his stay and tour of our country. Late last year those working with resistant bees were invited to take up the offer of Alois Wallner's (Randegg Austria ) 5 years study into resistant bees published under the name of "VARROARESISTENT" (Written in German) now out of print 10 years. I have done an in-depth study of his documented data,charts etc and find it hard to believe that many are trying to look for a silver bullet or reinvent the wheel. Technology has come a long way since Alois Wallner made his first discovery in May 1989 which he called Vkf (varroa killer factor) being one of a small number of factors in varroa resistance but a very important one. An observation I made in a resistant hive in October, 2004 (less than 1%) Prompted me to revisit Alois Wallner's work with the Vkf and it's relationship with mite reproduction. I have permission to reproduce Alois Wallner's work and photographs but it would not be appropriate to display his photos on a public gallery. Take a look at the varroa damage I have shot this year down the scope of 50+ year vintage with improvised lighting. Sure there is room for improvement but this microscope does the job for what I want. If we all want the same end result it is now the time to all work together towards varroa resistant bees as a top priority. Not sure as an observer of these forums whether I have any postings in the Bee-L archives over the last five years. http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/russell_bee/album?.dir=/9b61 Bob Russell Commercial beekeeper/engineer New Zealand. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:48:45 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, Here we go again. > Bees can not survive the ravages of varroa without some beekeeper help be it > varroa tolerant queens (best choice by far) , small cell , IPM methods etc. > False, there are in fact feral honey bees surviving without any beekeeper help. > All the people on my list want the same thing Only one is doing the job of keeping bees without treatments of foreign substances. > What about me? > My knowledge of your beekeeping successfully commercially has a history of only being two years without treatments for any one hive that is surviving. Correct me if I am wrong. Even my success is that good. If my oldest stock can make it through this winter my stock will be three years old without treatments. I will consider my beekeeping and your beekeeping successful without treatments of any kind successful after a period of five years running. Only one on your list has this success, keeping bees without treatments of any kind for the long haul and to add can produce increase. > There is no need for patented Queens, > > Apparently you are alone in your thinking False, hopefully others that are now on this list will back up my statement. J.W., M.B. tell everyone about feral honey bees and how much they out perform carefully bred strains. In my opinion, patented queens are the very last thing the beekeeping industry needs. The only group that benefits from patented queens is queen breeders and queen producers, the beekeeper only gets to pay extra for queens that should be reared and mated by the individual beekeepers themselves. > What about me Keith? Maybe I am wrong about you Bob, but it was my understanding that you have patented a stock of bees and stand to benefit monetarily. > Slipping in a varroa tolerant queen is the easiest , cheapest and > fastest solution to a varroa problem. > But can unravel quickly if not dealt with properly by breeders, unlike the stability that can be gained by keeping bees on a more natural system. > I have NEVER found an answer to > todays tough beekeeping problems in the old books. > That's not to say that some have. My ever increasing library of beekeeping books has no books in it newer than 30 years old. My best information comes from books that are over 45 years old and the best evidence for going small cell comes from books that are 90 years plus and older. The answer to today's tough beekeeping problems really can not be found in any book but in the bees themselves. The older books only enlighten me and show me excellent ways to keep bees, they enlighten me to the fact that man has meddled with bees to much and now they need our help to get back to where they once belonged. > As always I hope we "can agree to disagree" I will never take words personal. Arguing does not have to be taken negatively unless we take it personally. Lawyers argue their case so that others can judge for themselves the truth. The Facts are out there to be found, evidence is everywhere to be discovered. If all beekeepers were to fall off of the face of the Earth tomorrow honey bees would continue to live and to their job. As beekeepers we need to let the bees do their job. Disclaimer: MLO . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:57:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: [Bee-L] Super Varroa In-Reply-To: <63D883CB0A1B204EB053673DD882CB539340A4@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Great to see Bob Harrison making mention of the > short list of names. I would > like to nominate Alois Wallner to be added to that > list. In fact, I think one could add more names on that list. If one agrees to take a wider view of the situation, one may find testimonies of hives that have been being kept for years without treatment from many parts the world, from Philippines to Belgium, from France to Austria, and I am sure there are many I am not aware of. Some of these people are breeders, some are hobbyists, some are sideliners... and some hives were forgotten hives that took care of themselves by themselves. Hervé Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:37:41 -0500 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: [Bee-l] Spreadsheets Comments: To: curtiscrow@att.net In-Reply-To: <011220050257.5161.41E491FD000E13E500001429216124364699019D0C9C079B9D9A0C@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable C. Crowell: ".I too was looking for information about beekeeping = software, and ended up working on an MS Access application=20 ." =20 I use access as well, and was looking to develop something using an = access driven excel worksheet. Before I got too far I realized that other beekeepers, being the resourceful lot, probably have already 'been = there, done that.' I hoped to avoid trying to re-invent a wheel someone = already had rolling (downhill). So any information would be great.JK =20 Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen =D5hr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net=20 =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: curtiscrow@att.net [mailto:curtiscrow@att.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 9:57 PM To: Jonathan Kriebel Subject: [Bee-l] Spreadsheets =20 I too was looking for information about beekeeping software, and ended = up working on an MS Access application=20 =20 / :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:51:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Aethina tumida and honey quality In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We still do not have Aethina tumida here in Canada, but I wonder how you control honey quality when there is a risk of contamination by Aethina tumida excrements and eggs. What are the parameter of analysis with regard that kind of contamination ? What are the limits ? What do you do with contaminated honey ? Hervé Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:08:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/12/2005 6:30:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, alaskabeekeeper@HOTMAIL.COM writes: >False, there are in fact feral honey bees surviving without any beekeeper help. Not in my neck of the woods. My interested in beekeeping stemmed from my garden and apple trees failing to produce. Of the three beekeepers in town, with a total of four hives, two of those hives had just been lost to mites. When I was a kid, hives in the fields used to be a common site here and they are all gone now. On the bright side, my exposure to mites and American Foulbrood are really low right now. The answer to Varroa may not come from feral populations, labs, commercial or organic breeders. Possibly a combination of all of the above. When all the nonresistant bees die out (or are allowed to die out) we will be left with a stock to work with. The point of requeening with resistant queens is lost when she is superseded by a new queen mated with your neighbors treated drones. Packages of resistant bees coming to me from Texas may not pan out in a New England enviroment. e.g. Yugo. Ultimately the "super bee" will evolve regionally from resistant stocks. When there are less nonresistant bees to feed on, there will be less Varroa present. The bees need time and possibly a little assistance to adjust to the Varroa assault. A combination of breeding and IPM plans will keep beekeeping alive until a "super bee" evolves. I'm all for letting the bees do their own thing, but these are hard times. IPM plans do not necessarily have to include chemical treatments. They would include anything you can do to put stress on Varroa, or make your hives unpalatable to them. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:51:05 -0500 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: [Bee-l] Spreadsheets Comments: To: curtiscrow@att.net In-Reply-To: <011220051613.27282.41E54CA50004F49900006A92216028065199019D0C9C079B9D9A0C@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks. I am in the process of working out the business plan. I was getting ready for my equipment order, and realized I going about things backwards. I have to figure out what I am/plan to make, and order accordingly. My Father always told me that "I could have any hobby I wanted, as long as it made money." Been good advice over the years, and = I need to get on the ball with this, as my original plan called for = doubling hives for five years. 20-40-80-160-320. I have ample forage in the immediate area, and have yet to explore pollination. Several melon and = cuke growers nearby as well. So, I better get to it. But before I get onto = that I have to have a map of where I need to go.hence the spreadsheet. I = will check out the information later this evening. Thanks again Curtis.JK =20 Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen =D5hr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net=20 =20 =20 =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:33:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: there are in fact feral honey bees surviving without any beekeeper help. I have worked with many hives of so-called ferals removed from buildings etc. I never got any useful genetics from ferals. All I found survived by me adding frames of honey each fall. The story of the one is in the archives. Pitiful bees but alive. Efforts at breeding a varroa tolerant bee at the Baton Rouge Bee lab with ferals failed. I do know of three areas in the world which has documented ferals. These bees obviously carry some of the traits deemed neccessary to survival. The big problem with ferals in the three areas I know of is all other bees in the area have died from varroa so the gene pool is too small. I raised daughters from ferals and then applied varroa pressure and they all died. Feral genetics pale in my opinion compared to the Russian bee genetics of a hundred years of natural selection but to each his own! A friend has been trying to get genetics from Tom Websters feral hives but we would subject those bees to varroa pressure testing before ever using the genetics. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:53:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: My knowledge of your beekeeping successfully commercially has a history of only being two years without treatments for any one hive that is surviving. The Russian project is at three years untreated because I went through the hives two weeks ago completing the three seasons and three winters. The Russians on new comb look better than those on *previously before Russian use chemical strips used comb*. The Russians I moved on to strong fall flows look better and have bigger clusters than those which were not. I have had one feral colony I removed from a building go three years untreated before dying from varroa. The owner of the building said the bees had been in the building for five years prior to the removal. The hive always carried a high varroa load and deformed bees but survived. I have my doubts as to the colony not being a fresh swarm . I have had SMR breeder (Glenn Apiaries) daughter queens bees live five years untreated but with poor brood viability , supercedure problems and very poor honey crops. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:48:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: > There is no need for patented Queens, I said: > Apparently you are alone in your thinking Keith said: False, hopefully others that are now on this list will back up my statement. J.W., M.B. tell everyone about feral honey bees and how much they out perform carefully bred strains. Now would be a good time to give a crash lesson in bee breeding. The best bees ever produced I have seen came from one of two types of breeding programs. For the survivor program the closed population breeding works best in my opinion but only a handful of people around the world are able to to use the program succesfully for too many reasons to post right now. The second is the inbred-hybred breeding system which as Keith pointed out you need to keep buying queens. The closed breeding system can be further divided into two types. The instrumental insemination program which by far has the most control but due to only a small amount of people worldwide which use instrumenatl insemination (II) closed breeding programs using II are fairly rare. The other is the closed breeding system using remote breeding yards (Brother Adam used at first and then used II in later years with the Buckfast bee) but because a drone may mate up to 20 miles from his hive (Dr. Larry Conner 2004) one can see a single drone can cause mixed results. In a breeding program many times II breeder queens pay and not cost. You are buying the genetics! With the Purvis Brothers Apiaries queens Keith is refering to you are getting the final genetics of an eight year closed breeding system using instrumental insemination. I remember a Glenn Apiaires "Marla Spivak hygienic II breeder queen ". The first arrived dead in the cage. A report was filed with the post office an another sent. The second produced over a thousand hygienic daughter queens.Using the thousand figure the cost per daughter was seven and a half cents a daughter queen! Keith said: Maybe I am wrong about you Bob, but it was my understanding that you have patented a stock of bees and stand to benefit monetarily. Dann Purvis applied for the patent to protect his eight years of hard work. I did enter into a written agreement with Dann Purvis and a retired researcher ( wants to remain unnamed on Bee-L) in order to learn the makeup of his patented bee. The information is between the three of us and if I share the information with others I can be sued! Dann and I are sharing genetic material in the way of Russian/Russian queens. Dann and I are close friends. We both used to raise and breed fish. Dann tropical fish and me marine fish. Marine fish biology is my hobby. I said: > Slipping in a varroa tolerant queen is the easiest , cheapest and > fastest solution to a varroa problem. > Keith said: But can unravel quickly if not dealt with properly by breeders, unlike the stability that can be gained by keeping bees on a more natural system. Keith is correct with the inbred/hybred system *but not* the closed breeding system. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Fish enthusiasts scroll down. I have a marine fish tank which has been running over twenty years without a tear down The local marine fish club considers the tank a record for the club. The dolomite for the tank was given to me by a local fish shop as being thrown away as the shop said the pH of a salt water tank could not be maintained with dolomite after five years of use.Goes to show you can not believe everything you read in marine fish books! The tank was inoculated from a handful of wet Florida beach sand brought back by me from a trip to visit my family! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:00:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding the FANTASTIC discussion between Keith Malone in Alaska, and Bob Harrison in Missouri concerning "SUPER VARROA" vs. feral bee survival. Why aren't both of you "young men" in Reno, NV at the annual meeting of the ABF and vent your feelings there so the bee scientists, bee researchers, queen breeders, commercial and hobbyist beekeepers can "digest" your thoughts? Neither of you have kept bees as long as I have, now beginning my 73rd season, and ALWAYS successful with my 50-135 colonies for over 50 years. EVERYONE is much aware, from my well documented PINK PAGES over the past 20 years, that I am an ATOMIC BOMB scientist with a beekeeping hobby, have researched beekeeping management as a scientist, always relied upon the thinking of bee research scientists resulting in rarely having any varroa kills since varroa's arrival in 1987, and bees yielding 132 lbs./year average compared to Maryland's average yield of only 29 lbs. SO WHAT? Can a tiger live in Alaska? Or can a Polar Bear live in Missouri? I don't know - do you? How do varroa mites survive in Alaska, compared to Missouri, or compared to Brazil? Who has researched the vitality of honey bee races along with the vitality of the varroa mite in these vastly different temperature areas? NO ONE, due to lack of research money! I am wondering if feral bees requeening themselves in Alaska and surviving Varroa infestation is peculiar to the colder weather and shorter seasons, when compared to the same factors in Missouri, or even Brazil? Now, Keith or Bob, before you "fly off the handle", why don't you swap homes for a year and Keith test Missouri and Bob test Alaska, and I will go back to Brazil in my wheelchair and test Brazil against my Maryland bees that are all New World Carniolans from ARTIFICIALLY INSEMINATED QUEENS by Sue Cobey in Ohio. OF COURSE, I AM KIDDING, TO MAKE YOU MAD, AND HENCE THINK. The vast amount of verbiage from both of you (and I admire each of you) provides no solution to the varroa problem for the average reader of the Bee-L. How much MONEY have YOU and your followers gifted to honey bee RESEARCH over the past 20 years? Strange that I ask that? You have expected scientists to find a cheap, quick, cure for varroa infestation. Won't you concede that it is most difficult to find any ingredient, system, or chemical that will destroy the varroa mite, NOT adulterate the honey, and NOT harm the bees? That is the task that our UNDERFUNDED bee scientists are faced with. On a personal basis, I was born and live next door to THE NATIONAL CANCER INSTITUTE (now National Institute of Health) which was started in 1936 (before either of you were born), and paramount in cancer research, but my wife of 59 years died 3 years ago of cancer of the pancreas, because that disease was so INSIGNIFICANT (like varroa kill) that there was little research money. I end this L-O-N-G diatribe with a hope that all readers will depart from the so-called "findings" of perhaps highly successful and very fine gentlemen in the problems of beekeeping (which are MANY), and rely upon scientific endeavor by bee scientists, IN SPITE OF THEIR UNDERFUNDING. I go back to a widowed OLD MAN's loneliness of watching TV at night, and hoping to watch flying weather for my bees tomorrow. As in most other things of life's ventures, KNOWLEDGE about a subject that is gained by scientists usually winds up as the "winner" after many conflicts along the way to success. Unfortunately, there are those who tan and those that sunburn, Democrats and Republicans, Catholics and Protestants, not to mention the Muslims, Jews, an Atheists, and the VARROA JACOBSONI mite might outlive all of us; but SMART men will attempt to HELP US in the meantime. George Imirie Certified Master Beekeeper forget all the other garbage, degrees, writings, awards, accolades, etc. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:56:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Linux From Scratch Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Keith, Bob & All, Keith said: Maybe it is because none of the voices above are unified in the mission of keeping bees without any treatments at all. Bob Said: Bees can not survive the ravages of varroa without some beekeeper help be it varroa tolerant queens (best choice by far) , small cell , IPM methods etc. Me: Actually Bob, I couldn't disagree more. The bees in the wild have been strongly influenced by continued 'beekeeping' pressures, both in breeding and environment (migratory beekeeping and manual selection; manual means 'done by man'). The bees in the wild are very much influenced by local beekeeping practices. Bee populations that are left alone and after they have the opportunity to be selected naturally show the ability to survive just fine on their own. My computer is still not setup so I can't provide documented support readily, but there have been several studies in more removed areas of wild bees, and they are not only still present but are on the rise despite the so called alien presence of V mites. I keep bees successfully without aiding them in the game of life. They win or loose by their own merits. The only function I perform is keeping their combs straight for my convenience so I may inspect them. If I see a problem, I note the problem and observe the outcome. So far with few exceptions, the bees have taken care of their own problems by themselves. The exceptions were a few hives that just didn't make through their trial. Mother nature did her job admirably and removed and made vacant the presence of an entity and made room for another contestant. ----snip---- Keith said: I only know of one in your list above that is keeping bees successfully commercially without any treatments at all. Bob: What about me? Me: Are you really treatment free? Is your definition of treatment free the same as Keith's, Dee's, or my own? If you read what I wrote above, then you have a better idea of what is 'treatment free'. The only long term successful treatment to a pressure such as varroa is what the bees can manage for themselves or none at all. My ideals for treatment free might even be a bit more strict than Dee's. The bees either can do it or they cannot. The majority of mine do it on their own, and since I don't waste needless dollars or man-hours trying to fix what ain't really broke to begin with keeps my profit line in the black despite copious investments in lumber and livestock for growth. -----snip----- Keith said: treatments or fancy apparatus to keep bees alive, all that is needed is for beekeepers to learn how to keep bees as they were kept over 100 years ago. Bob: If a good point exists about varroas arrival it is all the new discoveries which have been made since the arrival of varroa about our honey bees around the world by researchers and beekeepers. I believe I have got the largest collection of old bee books in the Midwest and enjoy reading books of a 100 years ago and on occasion quote from same. I have NEVER found an answer to todays tough beekeeping problems in the old books. Me: interestingly enough, I must disagree again. If you read CC Miller, old abc's & xyz's and such, you will find something common among them all. All those innovations and inventions that have succeeded are those that have made the life of beekeepers easier, but and its a big but, only when the lifestyle, behavior and self-management of the bees is relatively unaffected. All innovations and inventions which limit, hinder or augment a particular behavior or way of life for the bees has almost in every case resulted in failure either immediately or some shorter or longer term in the future. There isn't an answer to any single question directly addressed within any single book, but all the old books point to one general direction. We as beekeepers (and people) have a lot to learn, and our teachers are the bees themselves and mother nature. Innovations which do not try to outsmart either bee or nature succeed. Those which we impliment because we are 'smarter' than the bees ! or mother nature are forever doomed to fail, either today or perhaps 100 or more years from now. -- Scot Mc Pherson Linux From Scratch http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/ http://groups.yahoo.com/OrganicBeekeepers/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:43:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Super Varroa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > J.W., M.B. tell everyone about feral honey bees and > how much they out perform > carefully bred strains. Well, my home bee yard is in poor bee habitat, minimal shelter, less flying time, cooler weather and forage areas some distance away. Combine these stresses with with the stress of varroa and many commercially bred honeybees fail to thrive here and eventually succumb. I've had 10 years 'fed up' of trying out different commercially breed bees, and they ALL either non-produce or succumbed in my poor ridge habitat. A pic in the photo section in Norlands shows a feral colony I retrieved a couple of years ago. Owner verified it's existence in the wall since around 1991, surviving thru even the "great crash of 95". This colony and her daughter splits were placed at my worst bee location along with the commercial breed bees I managed to keep alive there, and immediately began to out-compete the domestics. I believe I have identified the original location of this feral and one other location found last season as potential 'feral small cell pockets' where there seems to be a thriving population of smaller feral bees existing. I continue to get calls for for swarms and bee removals from these two locations, that when hived excel above the domestics without any treatments of or breeding of any special traits. Some of my feral bees from these areas are showing a high degree varroa tolerance, grooming behavior and honey production. This, now my 5th year without treatments, and at least the 15th, year without treatments for the above mentioned feral colonies I keep. All swarms and bee removals I retrieve go directly to my worst bee yard where the habitat there applies 'great selection pressure' on the swarms. I then determine the cell size they are drawing and either regress them or place them directly on small cell. The tendency in swarms that I retrieve from isolated areas that I suspect as ferals, is that they generally draw small cell well and thrive here in the poor location. Larger looking bees and suspected domestics that I collect near commercial beekeeping areas or towns will generally fail to thrive and fall away. Believe me, it is 'very easy' to weed the duds from the rest because they will do so miserable here. July is the 'cutoff' date so the speak when I cut-off the heads of the queens that do badly here so I don't waste any time trying to improve them. > > Slipping in a varroa tolerant queen is the easiest > , cheapest and > > fastest solution to a varroa problem. The ferals we easire for me, as they already have the mite problem solved,,, And don't be so cheep, splurge a bit and buy a little small cell foundation and the bees will reward you in kind. ;>) Best Wishes, Joe ===== Joe Waggle ~ Organic Beekeeper, Derry, PA 'Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' "Using humane and holistic beekeeping methods" ~ Small Cell Beekeeper ~ No treatments since 2001 ~ GO STEELERS!!! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:55:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Fantastic Educational Quicktime Honeybee Site! In-Reply-To: <002a01c4f902$4af5cc90$6600a8c0@benn1073> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello All, I found this 'fantastic honeybee site' I wish to share with you all. http://mkat.iwf.de/index.asp?Signatur=C%209779 click on any link where it says 'key words' and the first page of the selection will come up. This link has quicktime videos of the following: Multiple mating, conservation of sperms Setting up a testing station with shook swarms Evaluation of cell cleaning behavior hygienic test Evaluation at the end of a test period Check for the successful introduction of the queen Assessing of the brood size Evaluation of the colony's behavior Sex-alleles of honeybees Control of honey production Checking the origin of a test queen Varroa mites on adult bees and brood Varroa mite: Assessing the degree of infestation Assessing the development of varroa infestation Measuring of social grooming in bee colonies Type in 'queen rearing' in the search box and get an excellent 60 minute video lesson on queen rearing. There may be much more info on the site, you need to search it out. Enjoy! ===== Joe Waggle ~ Organic Beekeeper, Derry, PA 'Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' "Using humane and holistic beekeeping methods" ~ Small Cell Beekeeper ~ No treatments since 2001 ~ GO STEELERS!!! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:10:16 -0500 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Wade Organization: Honey Hill Farm Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I end this L-O-N-G diatribe with a hope that all readers will depart from the > so-called "findings" of perhaps highly successful and very fine gentlemen in > the problems of beekeeping (which are MANY), and rely upon scientific endeavor > by bee scientists, IN SPITE OF THEIR UNDERFUNDING. Both Bob and Keith appear busy doing their own research on this problem although in somewhat different ways. I applaud both their efforts and appreciate the information sharing because I and many others can benefit from their findings as well as the findings of the professional reseachers. I joined this list years ago for the purpose of being better informed on beekeeping issues. May the information continue. Thanks Bob and Keith. Wade :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:43:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi George: Unfortunately, varroa mites are very much alive and well in this south-central region of Alaska. It seems to me little concern is paid to them around here by most people who are summer beekeepers and do not overwinter. I took some mites to a bee meeting a couple of years back where one woman told me she’d often seen some of them in her hives, but never knew what they were. She had bees seasonally for a number of years. Another old timer here told me all that mite business is a bunch of crap. He insisted it’s nothing more than something dreamed up by researchers so they can get money and have something to study. (I only wish what he said was true for my bees that I do attempt to ovewinter.) It’s unlikely we have any feral colonies. Maybe once in a great while a swarm *might* survive a winter, but that would be about it as far as I know. >The vast amount of verbiage......provides no solution to the varroa problem..... Well said George. :) Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:25:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello George, Great to hear from you! I always value your advice and have missed your posts on BEE-L! A few years and you will be as old and have keep bees as long as my first beekeeping mentor! Another decade plus and you will have kept bees as long as Waldo McBurney (subject of my article "Centurion Beekeeper" in the Sept. 2004 issue of Bee Culture) 102 years young and will be 103 the next time we meet in two months! I wish we lived closer as I would love to write your beekeeping story for the bee magazines!! George said: Why aren't both of you "young men" in Reno, NV at the annual meeting of the ABF and vent your feelings there so the bee scientists, bee researchers, queen breeders, commercial and hobbyist beekeepers can "digest" your thoughts? As Allen D.& Jerry B. ( BEE-L list) are aware of I am very vocal and I have tried to enlighten the above for the last few years. I am simply too busy this year trying to make a living from honey bees to attend. I have got a close friend (attended AHPA meeting) and a partner which is attending the ABF and will report back. Many on the list have seen my partner as he is six foot five inches tall . Please wake him up if he falls asleep in the meetings. Especially if he is snooring! He has been putting in long hours seven days a week working on a never done before in beekeeping project we are working on . He is exhausted but I am sure he is in the halls talking beekeeping instead of getting needed rest as I would be if I was at the ABF meeting! George said: The vast amount of verbiage from both of you (and I admire each of you) provides no solution to the varroa problem for the average reader of the Bee-L. I really can't see how you can say I provide no solution. We have got queens which you can install in a hive crashing from varroa with PMS and the bees will not die but start thriving again in over 50% of the cases we have tried. The New World carniolan project is a four way closed system. The Purvis Brothers apiaries closed system is a six way which also uses instrumental insemination. Dann Purvis is a student of the master "Sue Cobey" and I a student of Dann Purvis. Have you read either of my articles in ABJ or Bee Culture this month George? Email me and tell me what you think if you have read one or both as I value your opinion! George asks: How much MONEY have YOU and your followers gifted to honey bee RESEARCH over the past 20 years? Enough! But the money we spent on our own research produced better results! When our group of beekeepers saw only a few researchers in a single bee lab making varroa progress we got on board and took their work to levels they only dream of! We believe we have got all the genetics from the Russian program which no other beekeeper or researcher kept. we believe we have got the best varroa tolerant bee on the planet. George said: You have expected scientists to find a cheap, quick, cure for varroa infestation. I gave up on our researchers several years ago finding the solution to varroa so we took their information and solved the problem ourselves through countless hours of hard work. I am surprised you hammer me as I am the profesional beekeeper here which makes a living from honeybees. Our group has taken the research of Harbo, Harris, Shiminuki & Rinderer to new levels and have got results. We are attempting to share research with Rinderer. George asks: Won't you concede that it is most difficult to find any ingredient, system, or chemical that will destroy the varroa mite, NOT adulterate the honey, and NOT harm the bees? Varroa tolerant queens are the answer . Our group has tested every method talked about on the net including small cell, screened bottom boards, drone removal & FGMO. We ruled out all but varroa tolerant bees. I remember the long talks I had with commercial beekeepers years ago telling me you could place a few Dr. Smiths menthol cough drops( had to be Smiths they said) in a hive and control tracheal mites and could not believe I laughed at their methods. Some people have got to learn the hard way! Great to hear from you George old friend! Hope you are still keeping bees a hundred years from now! Sincerely, Bob Harrison " I welcome all opinions on Bee-L as long as we can "agree to disagree" if the need arises. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:02:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dann Purvis II Subject: Re: Super Varroa Comments: cc: Bob Harrison , Thomas Wonder , John + Jan Roberts In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Keith, I haven't had time to follow closely this line but I can say I don't believe that Bob is saying that feral colonies are not important. In fact if you want to read the patent application you can see that we actually integrate feral survivors into our gene pool. They are very important to our program. Now for the patent. First of all, I was talked into doing this because of the assault from a couple insecure RESEARCHERS also in the bee breeding business, that in in my opinion are way over-funded. However, the great researchers that are doing similar work as us are laying low until someone plows the ground for them. It is mostly political in nature-I believe. Pisses me off but I am one of those type A frontal assault types. They are not. I'll plow the ground. But I can tell you this (I have learned to keep the names confidential) There are many that either totally agree with what we are doing, are doing it themselves or are developing programs similar to ours. Our detractors almost to the men and woman have agendas that are threatened by our program, observations and success. Last year, we set up a state wide breeding program for the state of Georgia in which we gave out over 600 open mated and Inseminated queens for only the cost of priority USPS mail and free if they picked them up themselves. From the beginning, I got bushwhacked and ridiculed by a FEW influential competitors-the very same folks that requested our bees and received our bees for several years. NOTE: They didn't get any of our queen this year! If and when you hear the negative reports please ask yourself if they or their minion have breeding programs and then talk to someone preferably an experienced beekeeper that have kept our bees and ask them what they think. I hope to get our list of testimonials together with permission and that way you can see the opinion of folks that don't have a dog in the race. We have not made any money on this. To date we have received a $2,000 state association grant and $500 from our local club. I stopped counting how much money we spent out of our own pocket three months into it and after $15,000. This doesn't include our time or the II and production queens we gave out. We have spent thousands of our own money to develop a bee that is proven. Now ask me if I get fighting mad when it is implied that we are doing this for selfish, dishonorable, greedy profit motives. I'm a retired Captain from the US Army infantry. I am into service and have found a new way to protect and if that pisses off some-tough. Also, I have worked in the research field (IBM R/D Tucson, AZ GPD) long enough to understand the politics that permeate, and stifle many great thinkers in and out of research organizations and institutions. Also, remember that you don't have to be employed by the government or University to do valid research. If I could afford it, I would give all my queens away because I know that we have the genetics in the gene pool and the key to all of us surviving the next few years is to get these or similar genes out as fast and wide as possible. (think T. Clarea) I let the Patent Pending status drop as of 8Jan05 because of lack of support. I don't believe my detractors can hurt us except in words because they have to produce the bees and that involves a process that is evidently foreign to them. My goal was and will remain to simply help the beekeeper and get us off the chemical treadmill that all talk about but few do something about. Is this selfish-yes? If we do not have any beekeepers interested in keeping bees in the future-how good will any of our futures be? We have applied for several grants over the years. The biggest one was a large multi-institutional one in which the end product would be program in which the beekeepers nation wide would not only get free breeder queens but also get the needed training to produce the same program that our patent is based upon. The problem is guess who looks at the requests and decides if you (non-Phd) get the money? Bob is a good friend. I admire him greatly. He was very skeptical and disagreed with me for several years. However, the difference with Bob is he came all the way from Missouri looked into our operation-documentation, research, in the hives, etc., then he took some queens home with him and then he made his observations. He is the real deal and I trust him. I have yet to get any current researcher except Dave Tarpy and Sue Cobey in the beekeeping community to visit our lab. They both were impressed but go into slightly different directions than us. At the same time they might not agree with all that we do but they are secure enough to see the honest effort as well as note our success. I think this is great. I invite all to come visit. We have a good friend that is a retired research USDA Botanist that has been overseeing our work and assisting us. He is actually the one that has done most of the paper work done on grants and patent application. John has books and patents as well but most importantly understands the threat we are up against as beekeepers. He has not been paid a dime and has never asked. He has got a few cases of honey, though. Greedy-huh? This is hopefully the first year we will make some money. More importantly this is the year we will get more of our genetics to the beekeepers. I will not be responding-too busy. I will be reading as much as possible. Dann Purvis Purvis Brothers Apiaries, Inc. 5122 Trackrock Camp Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 (706) 781-3128 (office) dannzann@alltel.net Www.purvisbrothersbees.com Www.mountain-honey.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:41:54 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why does it have to be a choice between the work of professional bee scientists and that of amateurs? Surely that's an unjustifiable polarisation; can they not find a way to work together? I see no reason why the work of a beekeeper can't be just as valuable as that of a scientist, and vice versa. No scientist can spread their experimental hives over an entire continent, so their results are as likely to be affected by local factors as anyone else's. That can, of course, be overcome by a community of scientists working together; at the moment we have work on fungi as potential varroa treatments being done both in the UK and in the States, for instance. Amateurs, too, if I can use such a term when some may well be professional beekeepers, can work together. The original scientists, after all, were amateurs with enough money to have the leisure and the education to do it, and there are still areas where amateurs make valuable contributions. I see no reason why beekeeping shouldn't be another. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:03:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: OA sprayer or atomizer. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Chris, I've also dribbled OA solution with a graduated syringe. No problems there. My interest in spraying stems from the reports that dribbled OA is sometimes not well tolerated by the bees. The sprayed amount of OA solution is roughly half, compared to dribbling, and it is supposed be better tolerated. I don't have a lot of hives so the extra labor involved in spraying is not a big issue. I'd need a good sprayer though where I could tell when I've sprayed the 3-5 ml per frame. I've come across recommendations for sprayer types in Europe but I am looking for a US source. Waldemar Long Island, NY >I have successfully dribbled OA from a large graduated > syringe at the rate described along each seam of bees. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:31:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Sheep Dip, etc. Hi Guys, And this is not the first instance of a 'sheep dip' approach concerning mites. It was a common practice in 90's. A catastrophic loss of hives was occuring on the west coast. And there were lots of commercial beekeepers on the verge of going broke due to low market prices and hive losses. They sprayed just about everything found in the barn into their hives to try and survive. Almond pollination is a good time to meet some of them. They will see your bee truck, come up, and strike up a conversation. You can find them running the hardware or auto parts stores. Those who used semi's with the bees are often in the trucking business. They will have a few hobby hives but are out of the commercial bee business. Others continued these practices to try and save some money. They were just too cheap to use strips. And I know of others who routinely reused strips, or just added one new strip/year without removing any, ever! I've seen hives managed that way with over nine strips in the broodnest! I've seen hives with strips in the honey supers!!!! Anyone want some honey from those commercial beekeepers. Yummmm.....Yummmm History is about to repeat itself again. If anyone is walking around the barnyard looking for a solution to the mites, in a few years they might find themselves driving a truck, or working retail sales. I challenge any commercial beekeeper to setup a yard of bees on clean wax and equipment. Compare it with those hives that have been treated over the years. You won't need a scientist to show you the difference. And then find a way to keep them clean. Canada and Europe have experience with organic acids. Oxalic has great commercial potential with few drawbacks. The wheel doesn't have to be reinvented to get clean, effective, treatment alternatives. Not treating hives has got to be better than any treatment. That's were ideas like small cell and genetic selection come in. Gone are the days when a beekeeper can just stick a strip or spray each hive and then forget it. Also gone are the days when such a beekeeper could sell truckloads of honey from those hives. If the resistant mites don't wake that kind of beekeeper up, then establishing proof of purity and carrying enough product liability, BEFORE any honey sale, sure should. In the future, the distinguishing characteristic for the market price of honey might not be based mostly on its color. Agriculture and food processing industries are a far cry from what they were after WWII and into the 50's. But much of commercial beekeeping is still stuck in that mode. From what I've read, most of the leading researchers no longer recommend prophylactic treatments. They are introducing IPM strategies, selecting bees, etc. They are trying to get American beekeeper off the pesticide treatmill. And it's the right direction to go. Regards Dennis Murrell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:23:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sheep Dip, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis & All, Excellent post Dennis! Welcome back! I have missed your posts! The problem is not only U.S. but worse in third world countries others around the world report. In the U.S. the researchers contributed to the problem in the late 80's by experimenting using the sheep dip products on sticks and writing about results in the bee magazines (before the first chemical strip was made available in the U.S.). Many even told beekeepers the formula but felt justified as tens of thousands of hives were crashing with the first arrival of varroa. Since then many poorly informed beekeepers have as Dennis says tried to dip sticks in about every chemical found around the farm to kill varroa! Zoecon the maker of Apistan has told beekeepers from the start at bee meetings without the *exact formula* you can kill bees, brood , contaminate wax or create super varroa mites by over or underdosing. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:02:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: S.A.B.A.'s 2005 Seminar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association will host an all-day seminar (9:00 A.M. - 4:30 P.M.) at the University at Albany uptown campus (1400 Washington Avenue) on Saturday March 12. Speakers include Dr. Dewey Caron (Professor of Entomology at the University of Delaware), Dr. Thomas Seeley (Assistant Professor of Neurobiology and Behavior at Cornell University), and Mr. Dennis VanEnglesdorp (Pennsylvania's Acting State Apiarist). Topics will include "Determining Varroa mite thresholds", "Everything you wanted to know about swarming", "The thirst of a hive: how a honey bee colony controls its water intake", "Plastic frames and foundation: good for the beekeeper, but good for the bees?", "Varroa mites: in the hive, in the apiary, and in the state" and "Beekeeping in the 21st Century." Pre-registration cost: $25 per person, or $40 per couple (Includes refreshment breaks). Lunch (not included) is available nearby. Walk-ins are welcome for an additional $5. Presentations run consecutively. Raffles follow. Friday night Dinner: For the past few years, SABA has arranged an informal get-together dinner at a nearby restaurant the night before the seminar. Speakers usually attend. Hotel: A "block" of discounted rooms is reserved for March 11 at the Marriott Fairfield Inn, just across Washington Ave. from the seminar. Please call by February 11 and mention "beekeepers" to get the discount. $79 + $11.06 tax = $90.06 for non-smoking room with 2 queen size beds (regularly $95 + tax). Hotel has a pool and complimentary Continental breakfast. Marriott Fairfield 518-435-1800, #1383 Washington Ave., Albany, NY 12206 Further details: Anne Frey, 518-895-8744 or SABAseminar@yahoo.com OR for a registration an electronic registration form in .pdf format, contact me off list. I hope to see some of my BEE-L friends at the March seminar! Sincerely, Aaron Morris, SABA Member. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:55:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Brooks Subject: Re: Super Varroa Bob said: Feral genetics pale in my opinion compared to the Russian bee genetics of a hundred years of natural selection but to each his own! Hello, Ferals and Russians both do not have 22 to 25 million years of natural selection?,,,one more evolved than the other? The estimated date varroa had jumped species to Apis mellifera in Russian bees is less than hundred years, apx. 1963 to be exact. On the evolutionary scale, that would be even-par. In reality, ferals unhindered by selection restraints such as those placed on Russian bees by domestic beekeeping practices, may in fact evolve resistance to varroa at a faster and more efficient rate than the Russians have. Cheers, :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:48:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob said: Feral genetics pale in my opinion compared to the Russian bee genetics of a hundred years of natural selection but to each his own! John said: Ferals and Russians both do not have 22 to 25 million years of natural selection?,,,one more evolved than the other? Perhaps the word natural selection is a poor choice? Johns position sounds like the common researcher postion . Many of those same researchers also say varroa tolerance can not be bred for but then all most of those researchers are interested in is granting projects of little concern to the beekeeping industry. I have used feral genetics in my program as has the Purvis Brothers in their program. I was being honest when I said I never brought a feral hive home which had genetics I cared for but Dann Purvis says he has and I believe Dann. The varroa tolerance in the Russian bees is similar between all my Russians. I have got a line of black Russians which test 0-5 varroa natural 24 hour drop in September in Missouri. I am sending those genetics to Dann Purvis to incorperate into his Blue Russian line in the spring. I have been speaking with my partner at the ABF convention twice a day and he told me this afternoon that Marla Spivak did a program called taking the "distructor" out of varroa destructor and announced she is going to be releasing a new hygienic varroa tolerant queen in the spring through Glenn Apiaries. You go girl! Marla made the word hygienic a common word in bee breeding circles despite the nahsayers! John said: The estimated date varroa had jumped species to Apis mellifera in Russian bees is less than hundred years, apx. 1963 to be exact. I am sure glad you said estimated because none of us know for sure. I find the 1963 figure laughable! The USDA-ARS has used the figure of a 100 years since the start of the Russian project. When Rinderer and Shiminuki were in Russia they were able to trace the varroa *problem* back much farther than 1963 by interviewing beekeeper, their fathers and grandfathers. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::