From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:35:45 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDD34822C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEFvLC013111 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0501C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 105391 Lines: 2423 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:09:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John said: The estimated date varroa had jumped species to Apis mellifera in Russian bees is less than hundred years, apx. 1963 to be exact. Looking back on the research given to the world on varroa I can't see how anyone can put an exact date on any of the research. What we do know: Oudemans was the first scientist to describe and name the mite in 1904 Varroa jacobsoni (of course Denis Anderson said a few short years ago the mite causing all the fuss and being studied by the worlds best beekeeping minds is NOT varroa jacobsoni as decribed by Oudemans) We beekeepers are still chuckling about how for all these years researchers did not notice the obvious difference in shape of varroa jacobsoni and varroa destructor. I have told this story before and is in the archives but many new members might find the story interesting. I read every piece of information I could find on varroa before arrival in the U.S. I could not wait to attend the Missouri State beekeepers meeting right after varroa introduction into the U.S. as the Missouri state bee inspector had received varroa mites in alcohol from the USDA-ARS and was displaying at our meeting under a microscope. Joe had a big picture blow up of a varroa jacobsoni (round) but the varroa under the microscope was destructor (oblong). I jokingly told Joe there was a difference between the varroa under the scope and the one in the picture. I said the USDA must have sent the wrong sample to Joe! Red faced Joe said "they were the same and I should stop always questioning things". I was only giving Joe a hard time but many Missouri State beekeepers remember the incident and once pointed out the difference was clearly evident! After Denis Anderson made his varroa destructor discovery I went back and found a old varroa article in the American Bee Journal. I took the article to a Midwestern bee meeting and we all had a good laugh. The article had a frontal shot and a rear shot of varroa jacbsoni. One was varroa jacobsoni and the other varroa destructor. my only point is too show how little we really know about varroa and its arrival and not put down researchers! Quote from "The Varroa Handbook" pg. 6 " No one knows when the parasite came across its new victim, the European bee Apis mellifera for the first time." also reading further on page 6 : " It is a useless excercise to delve into the historic details of its migration. RUSSIA was probabbly one of the first European countries to suffer heavy losses" Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 06:12:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Aethina tumida and honey quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >We still do not have Aethina tumida here in Canada, > What do you do with contaminated honey ? Having made two trips to observe small hive beetle (SHB) I see the only thing to do with the mess is to discard. You can smell the slime before opening the hive. Wooden parts can be saved if cleaned properly but I see no way comb can be saved once *slimed*. I have spent several years now trying to change the way I move supers through the extraction area to help prevent SHB damage. I doubt SHB will ever be a big problem in Canada but only my opinion. Bob Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:00:51 -0500 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: Sheep Dip, etc. In-Reply-To: <200501132131.j0DKm0Rh014788@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dennis, you encapsulated my philosophy of the [my] business. Honey is supposed to be "pure and natural" It would not take long in this age of cyancism to have the public believe otherwise. For now, it is easy to place the stigma on China, but would not take long to occur here once purity testing takes place. (And I am certain it will become SOP). Morals aside, I strongly believe in genetics. Natural selection, etc. I would rather have dead bees then poisoned honey. I am building up slowly, and hoping to use genetics to have 500 or so strong, natural hives. I have recently gone with a few Cobey-Queens from Tim Arheit. Seem to be doing well, but there are a few months yet for the proof. We also have been working with the Purvis brothers. Seems the only species Natural selection has been stopped is with humans. <> Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:34:38 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Brooks Subject: Re: Super Varroa In-Reply-To: <200501150502.j0F4iaVm029086@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob said: > What we do know: > Oudemans was the first scientist to describe and > name the mite in 1904 > Varroa jacobsoni Hello, Yes, described by Oudemans in l904 on Apis cerana, and not yet in Melliferia. > Quote from "The Varroa Handbook" pg. 6 > " No one knows when the parasite came across its new > victim, the European > bee Apis mellifera for the first time." A quote from "New Zealand’s MAF" pg. 9 "...However, by 1963 varroa had jumped species and could be found on Apis mellifera in the Philippines, Japan, Vietnam and Russia. On a new honey bee species that had little resistance to it..." I know of no record of varroa existing in melliferia before that date. From observations of more recent varroa invasions in several countries, the earliest date of varroa in meleferia could be hypothisesed at 1950. Please inform me if earlier dates have been recorded. cheers, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 11:11:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Super Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Super Varroa > Regarding the FANTASTIC discussion between Keith Malone in Alaska, and Bob > Harrison in Missouri concerning "SUPER VARROA" vs. feral bee survival. > > Why aren't both of you "young men" in Reno, NV at the annual meeting of the > ABF HI George and All First I think they are busy. Talking to researchers and understanding the REAL complexities is different issue. How can you talk about Honeybee Genetics , without reading Tom Rinderers book on the subject. Its deep. It took me 3 years of study on genetics myself before I could really follow the book. > Now, Keith or Bob, before you "fly off the handle", why don't you swap homes > for > a year > The vast amount of verbiage from both of you (and I admire each of you) > provides > no solution to the varroa problem for the average reader of the Bee-L. Now lets look at the real problem.. It is genetics. I wonder why Bob does not mention the white line of Russian stock. I know the answer.It was Russian queen aceptance to the italian bees. I asked Mark Winston about testesting for the pherome problem. The answer was too many variables in the queen pheromones of any given race. Then he sent me hard copy of all of his work on the subject.Then I started to learn about the real complexitys of only one part of the genetics of the honeybee.We are not talking about just a few organic acids and percentage of each. I cheated and would put some Italian queen substance on the queen in a cage and watch. The workers would stay around her for about 45 minutes. Then acted as if she was not in the hive. Now the real big picture. and George knows it. Because of the variance of the penotype in the genes, bees will act differently in a changed enviornment. I watched that in a small scale last year. Sea level , 2,000 feet and at 4,000 feet with the same Russian stock I have been working with since they first came out. I have a very good mix of genes. I have been putting the info in my computers for years. I can track about anything. , even infared shot taked by satilites. of my different areas. Its good to have connections at the U and sell my honey to the Microsoft people in Remond for the last 10 years. To talk about mite control with just a russian stock is a joke. You can have some Russians that will work well in California , but not good in Washington. I know from experience. We are too young in the process to have a cureall for the mite with Russian stock. No matter what it is. Two years ago I did 180% requeening in one year with russian stock. Why? Hygenic behavior. I test for it all the time. If they are not hygenic they are gone. Last summer I found some mites in drone brood and a couple on some workers.. I went back 2 weeks latter and I could not find a mite anyplace. Not in drone brood or on the bees. But they were all down under the screen. All my hive are on screens. Science and the researchers need more money to work this problem out. Russian stock is the first step. But the genetics of the stock needs to be looked at very closly.Gene loci is very important. Not just having the gene. So if someone thinks they have the magic bullet with Russian stock to fix all the mites have a lack of knowledge of genetics. It takes a long time and work to get a very good fix. Bees are very complex and so are the mites. A lot of work has been done on the mite. You have to understand your adversarry. > I end this L-O-N-G diatribe with a hope that all readers will depart from the > so-called "findings" of perhaps highly successful and very fine gentlemen in > the problems of beekeeping (which are MANY), and rely upon scientific endeavor > by bee scientists, IN SPITE OF THEIR UNDERFUNDING. > As in most other things of life's ventures, KNOWLEDGE about a subject that is > gained by scientists usually winds up as the "winner" after many conflicts > along > the way to success. > George Imirie Thank You George Roy Nettlebeck :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:32:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Aethina tumida and honey quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I see the only > thing to do with the mess is to discard. You can smell the slime before > opening the hive. Wooden parts can be saved if cleaned properly but I see > no way comb can be saved once *slimed*. A beekeeper here at the ABF says that the bees will rob out a slimed box, and restore it to useable condition. Another suggested placing the box on an ant hill. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 19:12:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Super Varroa In-Reply-To: <001c01c4faac$b9320b00$4dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Bob Harrison wrote: ...I have used feral genetics in my program as has the > Purvis Brothers in their > program. I was being honest when I said I never > brought a feral hive home > which had genetics I cared for but Dann Purvis says > he has and I believe > Dann. Hi Bob, To the most part, I haven't either. I would estimate that less than 10% percent of the swarms I get are what I would call 'true ferals'. Last year, a bad year for swarms, I had 10 swarm calls and only one 'city swarm' was a possible "candidate" to be a feral, concluded by interviewing the homeowners and no beekeepers near to. But I inadvertently left the includer on too long and the colony superseded and resulted in queen failure. ;>( My swarms must 'make the cut' on their own, even though it was my fault, the egg-less colony was penalized and combined. I discount swarms found near beekeepers or populated areas as feral. Occasionally, I may 'suspect' a town swarm as feral, but generally isolated farm land and heavily wooded areas allow high probability that they are 'candidates' for true feral. When I get a call from a rural area about the colony of bees in the wall for 10 years, I don't pass these ones up anymore. Chances are what most beekeepers call "ferals" are not ferals at all. But I do find that swarms and cutouts from remote farmland and wooded areas away from beekeepers seem to do much better for me, and "I" call them bees 'ferals' ;>) ===== Joe Waggle ~ Organic Beekeeper, Derry, PA 'Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' "Using humane and holistic beekeeping methods" ~ Small Cell Beekeeper ~ No treatments since 2001 ~ GO STEELERS!!! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:14:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "John R. Cunningham" Subject: soybean rust MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone on the list know what is being used to spray for soybean = rust. Do we have anything to worry about, any bee kill? What are they = spraying with? John Cunningham Perrysvillle, IN :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:35:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: SMR>= HYG? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Word is, in a nutshell, that SMR bees are actually hygienic bees, but with an important difference. SMR bees perform right up there with the HYG strains in standard HYG tests, however, hygienic abilities observed in bees selected for SMR extend beyond simply detecting and removing dead brood. In addition to doing equally well as HYG in detecting and removing dead brood, SMR bees are able to detect, uncap, and remove foundress varroa mites that are laying eggs and reproducing in cells. This uncapping and removal liberates the foundress, interrupts her reproductive work, and prematurely exposes the undeveloped offspring, resulting in the death of the daughters. The foundress may then enter another cell, but, if she tries to reproduce there, the cycle repeats. Thus SMR greatly reduces mite reproduction, and mites die of old age or accidents without replacing themselves. The wrinkle is that these bees seem to be much less inclined to uncap and remove foundress mites in sealed brood that are -- for whatever reason -- not laying eggs, and in any hive with varroa, there will be a considerable percentage of mites that non-reproductive, but which are just sitting out the dance in sealed in cells with the pupae. These non-reproductive mites enter the cell, stay the duration of the capping period, then emerge with the bee. This subtle fact -- that SMR bees quickly and efficiently remove reproducing mites in brood, but ignore non-reproductive mites in sealed brood --initially escaped researchers, and obscured the strong similarity between SMR and HYG. Researchers finding and observing the varroa in the sealed brood of such colonies concluded (understandably) that the bees were causing mite non-reproduction, rather than realising that the bees had already located, uncapped and pulled out most of the reproducing foundresses, leaving only the non-reproducing mites. After all, they would pull a frame of brood, brush off the bees, then go to the lab and look at the brood and mites in cells under magnification. Sure there were a few empty cells, but there always are. They observed that a high percentage of foundress mites discovered in sealed brood were non-reproducing, and that there were fewer mites -- as a percentage of total mite load --in brood than expected. They bred for this characteristic, and actually wound up with an hygienic bee, but one with special abilities -- the ability to sniff out and eject reproducing varroa mites in sealed brood. Current work -- if I understand correctly -- seems to indicate that SMR and existing HYG cross well, and that the SMR characteristic can be transmitted relatively easily to current HYG stock, so we may see some interesting things in the near future. A name change for SMR may be in the offing as well. FWIW, preliminary DNA work _seems_ to indicate that just two genes are associated with SMR, but when asked if they are the same genes that are associated with HYG, the answer from those working hard on this problem, seems to be that no one knows yet, and that there is likely more to the whole picture it than just two genes. I might mention that Dee has been saying for a long time that Lusbys' bees remove varroa foundresses, and that this is a major mechanism in the Lusby success. I think -- correct me if I am wrong -- that she also believes that using small cells (4.9) encourages that trait. I have heard others, here and there, some with small cell and some with ordinary cells, observing varroa removal, too. This new(?) information is especially interesting for those of us who think we can breed bees by looking at natural drop boards and rejecting hives with big drops. It is not that simple. We could be rejecting the best varroa fighters, using that criterion, if they are, at that moment, combating an infestation originating outside the hive. Observations over a longer period are necessary to get an understanding. (Again, credit to Dee for that). Interesting! allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:54:12 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: SMR>= HYG? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen A very interesting report - thanks. > SMR bees perform right up there with the HYG strains in > standard HYG tests, however, hygienic abilities observed in > bees selected for SMR extend beyond simply detecting and > removing dead brood. In addition to doing equally well as > HYG in detecting and removing dead brood, SMR bees are able > to detect, uncap, and remove foundress varroa mites that are > laying eggs and reproducing in cells. Is there any word on how 'grooming' links with this? Do bees deliberately injure foundresses as they are exposed, or is this an activity restricted to bees discovering phoretic mites (mites hitchhiking on adults). Such grooming seems to be an important mechanism of resistance in bees selected by Alois Wallner in Austria in the 1980s (he called it 'Varroa Killing Factor'), and something similar was reported to be present in Russians too in one of the papers out of Baton Rouge. Is this grooming (biting) just another manifestation of the same underlying mechanism, or a separate one? This has big implications for those using the 'percentage of damaged mites' amongst the fallen mites as a selection criterion. Did anyone discuss the differences between drone and worker brood? Most of the research seems focussed on worker brood - and that could be enough of course as drones are only raised seasonally - but is there any indication that the same resistance mechanisms function during mite reproduction in drone brood? all the best Gavin. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 06:14:42 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: SMR>= HYG? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & All, > This new(?) information is especially interesting for those of us who think > we can breed bees by looking at natural drop boards and rejecting hives with > big drops. It is not that simple. We could be rejecting the best varroa > fighters, using that criterion, if they are, at that moment, combating an > infestation originating outside the hive. Observations over a longer period > are necessary to get an understanding. (Again, credit to Dee for that). > I agree, and for my simple mind it was very easy to understand. It was Dee that was the first to explain this to me. A high mite drop simply means that the bees are doing their jobs of ejecting the mites. In some instances a beekeeper not wanting to use chemicals in the hive can get the wrong signal from a high mite drop, get worried, jump the gun on his/her bees and feel that a chemical treatment is necessary. Doing this with chemical free bees could only retard the bees natural ability to eject mites because of the chemicals affect even on the bees memory. I have decided that counting mites wholesale is a waste of time, so for curiosities sake I only count mites on one hive each year. I am going to start looking at the bottom boards for damaged mites to determine if VKF (Varroa killer factor) present or not in a colony. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:14:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: So? Comments: To: allen dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Which was a better show? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:06:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: SMR>= HYG? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Keith Malone wrote: > Hi Allen & All, > > > This new(?) information is especially interesting > for those of us who think > > we can breed bees by looking at natural drop > boards and rejecting hives with > > big drops. It is not that simple. We could be > rejecting the best varroa > > fighters, Also, you may be inadvertantly rejecting genetically inferior strains of varroa that are clumsy and can't maintain a good grip. ;>) ,,, correct me if I am wrong -- > that Dee also believes that > using small cells (4.9) encourages that trait. I > have heard others, here > and there, some with small cell and some with > ordinary cells, observing > varroa removal, too. Allen, I am seeing varroa removal, grooming, uncapping,,,. I've been small cell for a few years, and I am noticing traits being enhanced, especially in the cleanliness and hygienic areas. I might hypotheses that the traits coming forward my be in part due to seemingly better nutritional foraging abilities by smaller bees, ~OR~ the foraging abilities a result of the traits coming forward ie. healthier bees from enhanced traits benefiting overall health and subsequent better communication and foraging resulting from. Ref.(Apiculture 2 (1) 2003 "A further weakening of the Honeybee") IMO, it will be difficult to untangle the web so as to determine the actual cause and why small cell works so well. ===== Joe Waggle ~ Organic Beekeeper, Derry, PA 'Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' "Using humane and holistic beekeeping methods" ~ Small Cell Beekeeper ~ No treatments since 2001 ~ GO STEELERS!!! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:53:39 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: SMR>= HYG? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All Keith was right: VKF is the abbreviation for Wallner's 'Varroa killer factor', not 'killing' as I said. A small point but worth getting right. One of my colleagues this side of the pond kindly sent me a copy recently of Markthaler's note in ABJ describing Wallner's work: Markthaler, Gerhard (2004) A safe method of detecting Varroa-resistant colonies. American Bee Journal 144 (10) (Oct 2004) 755. Gavin. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:45:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: SMR>= HYG? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> SMR bees are able >> to detect, uncap, and remove foundress varroa mites that are >> laying eggs and reproducing in cells. > > Is there any word on how 'grooming' links with this? Do bees deliberately > injure foundresses as they are exposed, or is this an activity restricted > to > bees discovering phoretic mites (mites hitchhiking on adults). I did not hear anything indicating that the bees do more than release the mite from the cell. Grooming was discussed separately, by Rob Currie, and seems to be somewhat dependant on temperature and humidity, along with genetic factors, (I assume). > Such > grooming seems to be an important mechanism of resistance in bees selected > by Alois Wallner in Austria in the 1980s (he called it 'Varroa Killing > Factor'), and something similar was reported to be present in Russians too > in one of the papers out of Baton Rouge. Is this grooming (biting) just > another manifestation of the same underlying mechanism, or a separate one? I did not hear this topic discussed, although we have been aware of Wallner's work for a very long time. In that regard, has anyone any idea what is happening with Jack Griffes' HIP program? His pages at http://griffes.tripod.com/HIP1.html don't seem to have been updated for years, now. If any program should have worked, I would have thought that his should. > Did anyone discuss the differences between drone and worker brood? Most > of > the research seems focussed on worker brood - and that could be enough of > course as drones are only raised seasonally - but is there any indication > that the same resistance mechanisms function during mite reproduction in > drone brood? That was not discussed, at least anywhere I was present. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:18:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: The 2005 Honey Market? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hello Allen, >Could you give me some information about what is going >on with honey prices? Seems to be that nobody is buying >honey. Why are prices going down? I heard it will go down >to $0.85 Canadian and for the next two years will be that low. >Packer commentary... Please send us some information >Your fellow beekeeper At the AHPC meeting a speaker covered the markets and pointed out that North America had a short crop in white honey, and that Argentina has a dark crop and, although there is a good supply there, exporting is now controlled, slowing the flow. Prices should be holding, or rising if that were the only factor at play here. Nonetheless, the anti-dumping is failing, and Chinese honey is getting in, and the contamination scare is winding down, for now. Also, although not strictly legal, many figure that ultra-filtered honey is somehow getting into the store packs, and driving down the white honey prices. Other adulteration may be happening too, at levels just below detection. Argentina is coming back, slowly, onto the market as well, and Brazil is moving a lot of honey into export now. 24,000 Tons, if I got it right. Some correct me if I'm wrong. I have trouble visualizing these huge amounts. Previously -- in recent years -- there were some unexpected contractions in supply due to contamination and due to the anti-dumping that caught packers short, and forced them to bid up the price to avoid being left out as prices escalated. The panic buying has now ended, and the sellers' market is over for the time being. Is it now a buyers' market? It is hard to tell -- yet, anyhow. After years of worrying about a short supply and competing for honey, packers are sitting back and buying as little as they can to get by, expecting lower prices next week, next month, and maybe next year. In a declining market, they have no strong incentive to buy ahead, and, indeed are afraid that they will be caught with high priced product if prices decline farther. That could change suddenly. Or not. Without trying to predict this market, I will say that usually prices run a bit too far in any direction once they get going. The price was bid too high for a while, and now, if the normal pattern can be expected, we will see it drop a bit too far, then come back. The fear now is that, just as packers panicked and paid too much in the rising market, beekeepers will panic or be squeezed, and sell too cheap in the falling market. The market turned fast, and I know of several brokers who have been caught 'way off-side with high-priced stock and no immediate sale for it. At the AHPA, it seems to me that I heard talk of prices in the 85c to 90c US range, and that is about a dollar Canadian. Some beekeepers are doing considerably better, though. I'm sure some sales will come in below that range, since some beekeepers will become desperate to sell at any price. Packers are calling around looking for low hanging fruit, but so far, most beekeepers are well-financed and well-informed and are holding out, or just selling a little. I called the Mid US Honey Price Line just now (763-658-4193), and the message was from Dec 22. Basically the story was this: White loads were reported at $1.05, $1.30, and $1.10. Hold out? Sell? I cannot advise, but I know this market has fluctuated over the years and those who could hold out usually did well -- eventually. The world market has changed lately, though, and my crystal ball is cloudy. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 01:15:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Williamson Subject: Re: The 2005 Honey Market? For Light Amber Honey we are getting offered .54 lb. (US) from those that will even buy. Texas :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:46:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: john i Subject: mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Years ago, the blow fly was eradicated by creating sterile mates and spreading them around. Anyone work on mite from this angle? John Ingle sfbee keeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:27:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: So? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Which was a better show? I'd have a hard time choosing; that is why I went to both :) Each meeting has its unique pluses. AHPA members visited the Carl Hayden bee lab. ABF members visited a casino. If cost is a concern, I figure that the ABF always costs me about twice than what the AHPA does, since the ABF tends to pick pricey and toney places, while the AHPA tends to pick places where you can park a semi or motorhome for a few days (for free) if you need to, breakfast is free, and a person can grab a hamburger or taco nearby for a couple of dollars, instead of having to pay big bucks for a snack or basic meal, as I have found I wind up doing at the ABF meetings. This year, AHPA was at a Holiday Inn on the edge of Tucson. The AHPA attendance is a bit smaller and the sessions are focused more towards honey production and pollination, but there is a great deal of overlap in content. The same research was presented at both, however, the ABF had several other groups meeting concurrently, the AIA and the AAPA (and some from CAPA). Since beekeepers registered at the AFB meeting were welcome to attend the scientists' session, that added content that otherwise would have been absent. For example, Medhat and Rob Currie were at the AAPA meeting discussing formic and oxalic, but not Tucson. ABF also had presentations from grad student contestants which were worthwhile. All in all, probably the ABF has more, but, then what is better than visiting the Tucson lab and the Baton Rouge lab, as we did during AHPA meetings? ABF also has special content for rank beginners and hobbyists, which AHPA does not. >From all this, one might conclude that ABF wins hands-down, but I would not jump to conclusions. If I were a small or mid-size beekeeper and had to choose, is uncomfortable in big, glitzy places, likes to have convenient free truck parking nearby, and had to watch my convention budget, I'd just go to whichever is closest, and, because AHPA costs much less, give them the edge -- unless the added content was important to me. There is a group of people who attend both. That is costly and a bit gruelling, but allows a person to skip sessions that are duplicates and to meet more people. Will I keep doing it? Don't know. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ More info from my travels and pictures from a 2005 visit to Lusbys' :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:30:10 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: SMR>=HYG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the traits coming forward my be in > part due to seemingly better nutritional foraging > abilities by smaller bees, ~OR~ the foraging abilities > a result of the traits coming forward~ OR~ being on combs of fresh wax. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:33:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Pollination Contracts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I would like to put on Bee Culture's web page a series of pollination contracts for readers to view. From the simple, easy to use to the complex and sophisticated. If you have a contract that you wouldn't mind sharing with the world (with due credit of source if you are interested), please send as a pdf file, word doc. Pagemaker.doc, Indesign.doc, or Quark.doc, or as a fax and we will get them up asap. This is part of a program of offering basics on our page, and we appreciate your help. You can attach any of these to me in an email directly, not to the list. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:47:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: SMR>=HYG In-Reply-To: <15a.4834682d.2f1d7a52@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: > > the traits coming forward my be in > > part due to seemingly better nutritional foraging > > abilities by smaller bees, ~OR~ the foraging > abilities > > a result of the traits coming forward~ > Chris said: > OR~ being on combs of fresh wax. No, fresh comb was not the reason. Fresh foundation was placed in the hives 2001 and comb drawn. Improvement to the degree I am seeing wasn't noticed until 03-04, after queens reared off of small cell. Fresh comb is good for bees, but cannot explain what I am seeing 3 years after the fact. ===== Joe Waggle ~ Organic Beekeeper, Derry, PA 'Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' "Using humane and holistic beekeeping methods" ~ Small Cell Beekeeper ~ No treatments since 2001 ~ GO STEELERS!!! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:51:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: SMR>=HYG In-Reply-To: <15a.4834682d.2f1d7a52@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: > > OR~ being on combs of fresh wax. > Although fresh drawn combs do have an impact on colony health in getting rid of diseased comb, I believe the claims of 'great benefits to the colony derived from new comb' are to the most part being wrongly credited. IMO, the benefits are not the result of the fresh comb alone. More likely the cause is, that introducing foundation generally 'opens up the broodnest'. An unrestricted brood nest is essential for a colony (Bro Adam). Implementing routine practice opening up the broodnest will result in the same positive result, and save you $$$$. In support of this, I can not recall ever removing a mature feral colony that had set up a nest in an 'adequately sized void' to be restricted in the broodnest in any way what so ever. Equally impressive besides the size of the nest, was the large amount of empty comb available, and overall health of these colonies. ===== Joe Waggle ~ Organic Beekeeper, Derry, PA 'Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' "Using humane and holistic beekeeping methods" ~ Small Cell Beekeeper ~ No treatments since 2001 ~ GO STEELERS!!! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:17:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nicholas S Behrens Subject: Brood nest In-Reply-To: <20050117214700.94051.qmail@web20925.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I was wondering if anyone has information on brood nest relative humidity? Is there any documented sources that say what the average brood temp is? I did some research, but did not find much for well documented sources, any information would be very helpfull. Nick :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:34:31 -0500 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honey Prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick said "At the AHPA, it seems to me that I heard talk of prices in the 85c to 90c US range, and that is about a dollar Canadian." While not explicitly stated, I am reasonably certain that the price reference was to white honey. Around here (and I was just told, in Texas) Extra Light Amber is going for $.60-$.65. Better than the $.50 that it sold for during the market low, but certainly not a good price. On the other hand, in almost 30 years I have never seen such 'good' prices for comb honey. Here in the northeast, 8-9 ounce Ross Round sections, which many wholesale buyers prefer because it can be shipped without leaking or other difficulty, sold last summer and fall for $3.50-$4.00 each, wholesale. 12 ounce cut comb sections sold for about the same price during the summer but got as low as $2.50 when producers wanted to clear their inventories in the late fall. There is a serious East Coast buyer looking to contract for several thousand 2005 Ross Rounds production (at prices about equal to 2004). Anyone who is interested (minimum of 500 sections) can find more information by contacting me privately. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com Lloyd@RossRounds.com 518-370-4989 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:32:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Another visit to Lusbys MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While in Tucson for the AHPA convention, Joe, Oene, Charley, and I dropped over to Lusbys to visit. Joe and I had been there in 2002, and were eager to go back. Dee had just received a call that some hives were down, so we all headed out to straighten them up. Pictures are at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/Lusby/2005.htm allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:23:40 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: M & T Weatherhead Subject: Re: Another visit to Lusbys In-Reply-To: <002801c4fd16$b03508b0$59b85ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Dee had just received a call that some hives were down, so we all headed out to straighten > them up. What knocked the hives over? There seems to be a large number over or on a precarious lean. Were they robbed out as there seems to be not many bees in some of the supers on the ground? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.837 / Virus Database: 570 - Release Date: 17/01/05 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 03:10:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Another visit to Lusbys MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What knocked the hives over? There seems to be a large number over or > on a precarious lean. It seems that it was the wind from a storm, and possibly, in some cases, cattle. The hives are very light at this time of year and go down easily. The pictures may not be representative, since I only showed the downed hives, and the same hives possibly more than once. By far, most hives in most yards were just fine, but there was a domino effect happening in several spots. After fixing up the worst yard, the rest of the day was mostly just driving in and out of yards, and I took fewer pictures. > Were they robbed out as there seems to be not many bees in some of the > supers on the ground? Some of the hives were empty 'catch' hives waiting for swarms. Others were normal producing units. In the latter, at this time of year, bees are normally occupying only the second box. After five years of severe drought, the bees are not quite as good as we saw last time, but seem OK, especially considering we only examined the ones that were down and did not open the standing hives. The rest of the boxes are empty at this time, but soon the flows will begin and the hives will expand and fill the rest of the hive. In the desert, wax moth is not a problem and no beetles are in the region AFAIK. Due to the remoteness, access can be difficult, if the arroyos food and wash out, and, moreover, flows are unpredictable. Therefore, the best place to store the extra equipment is in the yards, on the hives. We did not see any robbed out, even though the hives may have been down for a week, and some possibly longer. The ones that were down had patches of brood on several frames, and the brood, somewhat surprisingly, seemed OK despite having been horizontal and the boxes open to weather and other bees. The boxes on the bottom are pollen traps, presently bypassed, but in place, ready for use. See http://beesource.com/pov/dick/bcjun02.htm for more detail from last trip in 2002. Charley was along with us on this trip, and maybe he will add his own comments. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:30:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Bummer!!! (cross-posted from sci.agriculture.beekeeping) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" I saw this posted on sci.agriculture.beekeeping and am cross-posting for discussion here. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Eyre" Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Bummer!!! It is a well known fact that most beekeepers are solitary individuals rarely asking for help and preferring to sort matters and problems out for themselves. This is one of those rare occasions where I request help from the beekeeping community. There is recent legislation in the US enacted on Oct 21 2004, to the USDA and APHIS Federal Registry, Vol 69, No.203 dealing with the importation of queen bees into the continental United States from Canada in particular. While not an outright ban, which would be contrary to the WTO and NAFTA agreements, this legislation is so draconian in it's conception to make it difficult if not impossible for small/average queen breeders to comply with. If as I suspect, it is more about trade protectionism, then this document has been extremely well crafted. A brief overview might be helpful. Each shipment to the US has to be accompanied by a health certificate, the inspection no more than 10 days before shipment. So a weekly shipment, as in our case, will necessitate weekly inspections of our yards, and each shipment has to be accompanied by invoices and export/health certificates. The package has to be sent through a recognised port of entry to enable each and every shipment to be inspected by an APHIS inspector, if the shipping method doesn't meet with his approval, then it can be destroyed at the shippers expense! The importer now has to apply, in plenty of time, for an import license, to the appropriate authority. Then the necessary parts of the legislation has to be initialled and returned to the authority for onward transmission to the port of entry, in time to meet the shipment. Stating all relevant information regarding who, where and when. I will agree, each point is not insurmountable, but can you imagine the paper trail necessary to send a single queen to a beekeeper in Ohio? At the same time I very much doubt whether that same beekeeper would even make the effort! As I stated earlier, this legislation is extremely well crafted and is just another nail in the coffin of 'free trade'. The legislation comes at a time when the border has been opened to allow US queens into Canada, but these restrictions are considerably tougher than the equivalent legislation out of Canada. Another interesting point of argument. The paper states it is impossible to keep bees over winter in Alaska, yet we have a customer who has achieved just that using queens from Canada. It would appear the legislation is crafted on flawed data and needs reconsideration. I don't feel I want to get involved in rhetoric regarding keeping the border open, just to say, in my opinion, it is a retrograde step by the industry and while I do not agree with 'tit for tat' action regarding trade it is extremely tempting. If this is the treatment to a 'friendly neighbour' then God help your enemies. Now comes the uncomfortable area. We have to cancel all queens currently on order and there are a number of you on our files, refund all monies held in trust, and finally apologise for any inconvenience created by us, via the US government. If you agree with this position I would encourage each and everyone of you to get involved, write to your congressman, and the address above, protest at the injustice it is your livelihood which is at stake. Respectfully, David Eyre. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Eyre, The Bee Works, 5 Edith Drive, RR # 2, Orillia, ON. L3V 6H2. Canada (705) 326 7171 www.beeworks.com admin@beeworks.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:10:15 -0500 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Bummer!!! (cross-posted from sci.agriculture.beekeeping) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if Dave has his facts right? Regs. just changed to allow import of queens from Australia, and other countries. This change was made because of a request from Australia, and it was supported by some in the US queen breeding industry. These regs. were purposely drafted to do as much as possible to prevent US imports of mites and other parasites that we do not yet have. That said, Canada has always been the beneficiary of 'special' regs. as regards importation of queens. I have to wonder if those special regs. are still intact and Dave is reading the new regs to also apply to Canada? Don't know, just a guess. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:31:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rosalind James Subject: sterile male mites John Ingle suggested that maybe the sterile male release technique could be used to control varroa. This method has been used for screw worms and for some fruit flies. For it to be successful, it requires that you have a method for mass producing the pest, separating the males from the females, sterilizing the males in a manner that does not inhibit their fitness (they still need to seek out females and mate with them), the males should not be a pest themselves, and the females must only mate once in their life. The method does not work for species where the females mate multiple times; in insects and mites, that means, to multiple males. Varroa is tricky in that each mother mite produces one male offspring in the capped brood cell, and he mates with his sisters. Thus, the females are already mated when they emerge. In addition, the males seem to be more delicate and shorter lived than the females (most die before emerging from the capped cell). For these two reasons, I think a sterile male release is not likely to work for varroa mites. Also, as easy as it is to produce varroa in the hive, it is very difficult to produce en mass in the laboratory--which you would have to be able to do. But it is good so see someone thinking outside the box! Rosalind James USDA-ARS Bee Biology & Systematics Lab Logan, UT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:30:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: 2-heptanone in wax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Ok, I had to pull our book chapter off the shelf and see what we reported finding in beehives, using sorbent chemistry techniques. Glad to see that the Fed Labs have finally caught up, we've been using these analytical technologies since 1995. I couldn't remember what we found with respect to 2-heptanone -- the fact that we identified over 200 volatile and semi-volile organic compounds inside beehives might have something to do with it -- or maybe its old age and poor memory. Whatever, 2-heptanone was one of the materials that we found in beehives in Montana and in Maryland in the mid- to late 90s. We weren't using it to control mites. It was already in the hives. According to the literature survey that we did, this compound is produced by the mandibular gland of guard bees and functions as an alarm or defense compound and marker. Which leads to the next obvious question, what's the temperament of the treated colonies? One thing that I am glad of, until USDA found that wax was a chemical sink, we were one of the few cautioning about build up of residues in wax - and not only of things injected for mite treatment, but we found all kinds of materials, including by-products of burning gasoline and diesel, industrial solvents, and the list goes on. The other down side is that wax may hold on to some chemicals for years. As such, I'll be the first to jump on the bandwagon and lobby for comb rotation -- out of the hive, not simply to another spot in the hive. I'll also lead the charge against fogging things like sheep dip into the hives. Great way to bring the industry to its knees -- unregistered chemicals and pesticides partitioning into and out of wax and honey. Wait until the honey consumer in the grocery store reads about contaminated honey. If you think transfer from strips is a problem, think what a fogger can do in terms of speeding up the process and virtually guarantees contamination. Cheers, I think. Jerry Ref: Smith, G.C., J.J. Bromenshenk, D.C. Jones, and G.H. Alnasser. 2002. Volatile and semi-volatile compounds in beehive atmospheres. In: Honey Bees: Estimating the Environmental Impact of Chemicals. J. DeVillers and M-H Pham-Delegue, eds. Chapter 2: 12-41. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:11:45 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: M & T Weatherhead Subject: Re: Bummer!!! (cross-posted from sci.agriculture.beekeeping) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I wonder if Dave has his facts right? On my reading of the final ruling, Dave is correct. > These regs. were purposely drafted to do as much as possible to > prevent US imports of mites and other parasites that we do not yet have. I agree with this principle and wouldn't wish any more pests on the US beekeepers. The certification that Dave talks about reads:- "Certify that the hives from which the honeybees in the shipment were derived were individually inspected by an official of the regulatory agency no more than 10 days prior to export." Also "Notice of Arrival - At least 10 business days prior to the arrival in the United States of any shipment of bees or honeybee germ plasm imported into the United States under this subpart, you must notify APHIS of the impending arrival." Now I wonder if the queen bee breeders and package producers in say California or Georgia have to have this same inspection and certification before they ship interstate? > That said, Canada has always been the beneficiary of 'special' regs. as regards importation > of queens. I have to wonder if those special regs. are still intact and Dave is reading the > new regs to also apply to Canada? Don't know, just a guess. The wording in the ruling is "single sanitary surveillance". So all countries now exporting to the US, those on the approved list, are under the same conditions. As Dave points out the US conditions are certainly much tougher than the Canadian conditions for US queens to go to Canada. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.837 / Virus Database: 570 - Release Date: 17/01/05 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 07:17:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: U.S. import & export of bees (was Bummer!!! ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tim & All, Being directly involved in both the issues referred to in the post I feel compelled to comment. Tim the Missouri beekeeper which talked to you weeks ago about importation of pallets of packages into California is my beeping partner. > These regs. were purposely drafted to do as much as possible to > prevent US imports of mites and other parasites that we do not yet have. Actually my concerns are virus oriiented but I realise virus importation can not be controlled. "Certify that the hives from which the honeybees in the shipment were derived were individually inspected by an official of the regulatory agency no more than 10 days prior to export." We are till seeking clarification over exactly what the "regulatory agency" means. Is a local bee inspector ok? Is the inspector special trained? >Also "Notice of Arrival - At least 10 business days prior to the >arrival in the United States of any shipment of bees or honeybee germ plasm imported into the United States under this subpart, you must notify APHIS of the impending arrival." The head of the APHIS department involved ( Wayne Wehling) has the power to wave this part *if* he sees fit. The first shipment since the border closing from Austrailia (Tim is aware of and involves a Missouri beekeeper) will be a meeting of agencies & beekeepers involved. Wayne Wehling will attend, Homeland security will attend, Austrailian beekeeper or beekeepers will attend , up to three commercial U.S. beekeepers might attend and even Bob Harrison *might* attend the event. (if the event happens soon). Beekeepers wanted the shipment to come into the Fresno airport but Mr. Wehling wanted the San Francisco air port. The bees will come into the San Francisco airport! Tim asks: Now I wonder if the queen bee breeders and package producers in say California or Georgia have to have this same inspection and certification before they ship interstate? I spent an hour on the phone last night working on a queen shipment from Georgia into Canada for a close friend queen breeder. I gave the queen breeder contact information in APHIS & Canada. I will post when the rules become clear. The shipment into Canada is not pressured by time as is the Austrailian package shipment. We are still in shock at the cost of a phone call to Austrailia from the U.S. ( 18 min.= $75). Discount phone cards do not get a discount. What are we doing wrong? Does a way exist to make a cheaper call to Austrailia? Tim said: The wording in the ruling is "single sanitary surveillance". So all countries now exporting to the US, those on the approved list, are under the same conditions. As Dave points out the US conditions are certainly much tougher than the Canadian conditions for US queens to go to Canada. All beekeepers in all countries with concerns for importation into you countries your concerns are certainly valid! Our group feels the benefits outweigh the *current* risks. Big reason for import into U.S.: Queens & Packages will be available at a time now which U.S. queen breeders can not fill and never would be able to fill. Minor reason of Bob Harrison: We want those Australian queens alleles for our breeding program as myself (and others) believe the gene pool of U.S. queens needs alleles improvement. We are also happy Reindeer has seen fit to do another importation of the Russian queens as Myself (and others) have felt alleles problems could surface in the Russian program *long-term* without further importation. The import and export of bees into the U.S. is a done deal. Is going to happen! Those on BEE-L which want to waste the lists time with *your reasons* why imports & exports are a bad idea please keep your comments brief as you are riding a dead horse! The subject has been hashed and rehashed on BEE-L and the archives are full of opinions! Lets move on please! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:17:15 -0500 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Calls re Australian queens, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison asks "Does a way exist to make a cheaper call to Austrailia?" That is, cheaper than $4 a minute! I pay $.40 a minute for calls to Australia! Just plain old AT&T. I pay $.14 a minute for US calls. More than a lot of others for US calls, but I also get good quality all the time. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:59:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: Calls re Australian queens, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob Harrison asks "Does a way exist to make a > cheaper call to Austrailia?" That is, cheaper than $4 a minute! I have just signed up with an international service to call Europe - 2.9 cents per minute. When I asked AT&T for a rate they said $1.97. The quality seems fine. They say I can call Australia for 4.5 cents per minute. The price is right. I'd give it a try. Here is their web site. http://www.onesuite.com/ Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:31:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: U.S. import & export of bees (was Bummer!!! ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have been busy and apologize for the typo's on my last post. I need to slow down I suppose but trying to get things taken care of so I can live out of a suitcase for a few weeks! "Beeping" partner should have been beekeeping partner and "Raindeer" should have been Rinderer for the Russian bee researcher. Beeping always comes up with spell check for beekeeper and raindeer always comes up with spell check for Rinderer. I pushed the wrong key while spell checking. Sorry! Back to work! Bob News flash: A patch reportedly (similar to the nicotine patch) will soon be available to help break the addiction to BEE-L! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:36:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim King Subject: Flux Drum Pumps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5AC9918; boundary="=======6A92286F=======" --=======6A92286F======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5AC9918; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm considering the purchase of a Flux drum pump to transfer 115-120 degree F. honey from drums to a bottling tank. Has anyone had experience with this brand drum pump? Any other pumps that will do the job without positioning the drum horizontally? I would appreciate anyone's experience on this question. Thanks. Jim King Riegelsville, PA --=======6A92286F=======-- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:36:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Flux Drum Pumps In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050119152825.01a1c1b0@mail2.enter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > Any other pumps that will do the job without >positioning the drum horizontally? >Jim King I used to use a standard 1 1/4" honey pump. I filled the suction hose with honey using a pitcher, stuck the end in the barrel, and pump away. Now, I use a shop crane (engine hoist) and cradle...lift the barrel, and dump the honey into my extractor, and let it go through the sumps as if I was extracting. Winds up in bottling tank after going through a filter or strainer. Use a cover on the barrel with a bung hole, and 2" molasses gate. I do a few hundred thousand pounds a year like this with no mess. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.12 - Release Date: 1/14/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:03:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: U.S. import & export of bees (was Bummer!!! ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We are also happy Reindeer has seen fit to do another importation of the > Russian queens as Myself (and others) have felt alleles problems could > surface in the Russian program *long-term* without further importation. Is that true? I hadn't herad, and in his ABF presentation he said, "2004 saw the last new lines added to the program". allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:07:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Flux Drum Pumps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Any other pumps that will do the job without >> positioning the drum horizontally? We often used standard, cheap (~$100) 1" brass gear pumps, available at most hardware stores and geared down with pullies to 180 RPM or so, with no problem. They are self-priming over reasonable distances if the suction hose is airtight and the pump is in good condition. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:40:33 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: M & T Weatherhead Subject: Re: U.S. import & export of bees (was Bummer!!! ) In-Reply-To: <000501c4fe29$67ba66c0$42bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The first shipment since the border closing from Austrailia (Tim is aware of and involves a > Missouri beekeeper) will be a meeting of agencies & beekeepers involved. Our authorities here in Australia know nothing about this meeting. Can you give us more details please. >> Now I wonder if the queen bee breeders and package producers in say California or Georgia >> have to have this same inspection and certification before they ship interstate? > I spent an hour on the phone last night working on a queen shipment from Georgia into Canada > for a close friend queen breeder. I was referring to shipments between the States in the US, not to another country. > The import and export of bees into the U.S. is a done deal. The final ruling came out in October but I found out today that APHIS has still not approved the final draft of the health certificate that has to be used. So no exports from Australia until the authorities here know what has to be on the certification. I thought that this should have been available when the final ruling was made. I wonder why it has still not been finalised? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.839 / Virus Database: 571 - Release Date: 19/01/05 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:06:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Drutchas Subject: Arizona bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Got back from the AHPA meeting in Arizona and I have to say after walking around the desert I was impressed with the amount of bees I encountered. Even in the mountains I had no trouble finding honey bees. Here in Vermont you rarely see bees unless your near some hives. I'm assuming I was seeing Africanized bees. While I was there two poor fellows where badly stung up, seems they did everything wrong, tried to beat the bees off with a coat and didn't run. Judging from the amount of bees I was seeing, swarming behavior and whatever else has adjusted the Africanized bee to the mites quite nicely. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:50:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: U.S. import & export of bees (was Bummer!!! ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, I said: > We are also happy Rinderer has seen fit to do another importation of the > Russian queens as Myself (and others) have felt alleles problems could > surface in the Russian program *long-term* without further importation. Allen asked: Is that true? I hadn't herad, and in his ABF presentation he said, "2004 saw the last new lines added to the program". I have not been told by Tom myself but get the information from reliable sources. I did voice my concerns about the possible future alleles problem to Tom when we talked at our last meeting. The Russian project was supposed to end in 2004 exactly as projected at the start of the project. Myself and others are grateful for the Russian project and pleased with the bee but believe the project methods could have been improved. Because the project in my opinion was a success those of us involved *now* would like to have saved many of the Russian queens which were dispatched to evaluate ourselves and use the alleles which were lost.. For those on BEE-L which might get lost reading further I would suggest picking up one of the excellent books which are sold by most beekeeping supplies on advanced queen breeding. I can recommend several if the list is interested. I have never seen an *advanced* queen breeding book in the huge library complex in Kansas City. Think about this. Only two breeder queens were sent to Glenn Apiaries to produce the II (instrumental inseminated) breeder queens (I was told by Charlie Harper by phone). Which *in my opinion* resulted in queen producers grafting from the breeder queen and open mating to their own stock creating a hybrid. They saw (in my opinion) that building a Russian line which would not see an alleles problem would be problematic. Many queen producers believed the Russian bee was simply a fad and never bothered to collect all 12 queen lines. Some have only got the genetics of the 2004 release. The II queens I am using are the product of 12 different USDA-ARS Russian project released II queens through Glenn Apiaries. They *in our opinion* carry all the *released* genetics. Even with such a diverse mix of alleles we are always on the watch for an alleles problem in offspring. Below is a big problem in my opinion: The Russian queen introduction problem is real. Rinderer and others close to the project avoid the subject for obvious reasons. If plans go as planned next year Russian/Russian packages will be available which will bypass the introduction problem for many beekeepers. Introduction of a Russian queen into a hive of Russian bees is as simple as any other introduction *but* the standard introduction of a Russian/Russian queen into a different hive of bees is very problematic. A (verified by USDA-ARS bee lab ) difference in pheromones exist which in my opinion IS the root of the problem. One reason why commercial beekeepers have not embraced the Russian bee.I have discussed the subject with many which have tried the Russian and gave up. Quote *to me* by a commercial beekeeper concerning introduction of a *Russian/hybrid* queen. " I want a bee which I can poke a hole in the candy and come back a week later and the queen is out and laying! Not come back a week later and find the queen dead on the floor of the hive and queen cells!" Some hybrid Russian queens are far easier to introduce than the Russian/Russian which is the bee I work with. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:19:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: U.S. import & export of bees (was Bummer!!! ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Trevor & All, I said: > The first shipment since the border closing from Australia (Tim is aware of and involves a > Missouri beekeeper) will be a meeting of agencies & beekeepers involved. Trevor said: Our authorities here in Australia know nothing about this meeting. Can you give us more details please. Bell Hill Honey & Terry Brown. Tim said: I was referring to shipments between the States in the US, not to another country. State rules differ but an inspection once a year of queen breeders is the norm which produces a certified disease free slip. On the other hand migratory U.S. beekeepers jump through many hoops (not the outlaws which are the exception but a few outlaws are around). In 2002 my bees were inspected four times and on arrival back in Missouri each hive was inspected. I have no way of knowing how many hives were inspected at the other times. > The import and export of bees into the U.S. is a done deal. The final ruling came out in October but I found out today that APHIS has still not approved the final draft of the health certificate that has to be used. So no exports from Australia until the authorities here know what has to be on the certification. I thought that this should have been available when the final ruling was made. I wonder why it has still not been finalised? Is true the final draft was not ready a week ago but believe we are through the holdup now thanks to Wayne Wehlings (APHIS) help. Government *red tape*! The problem is being worked on as we speak in the U.S. and you should get the form shortly. A large sum of money will lost by Australian package producers if our governments fail us as timing is important. All systems are go (phone conversation yesterday) with the two queen and package producers we are working with in Australia and with the three commercial beekeepers involved in the U.S. The head of the APHIS project is working on the U.S. end and said to the three commercial beekeepers in Reno he believes he can make the project happen on schedule. I am pretty sure my partner said you gave us Terry Browns phone number but could be wrong at the start of the project. Help us if you can Trevor! Thanks in advance! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:56:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: imported bees from Australia, New Zealand Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi all: Listened to Wayne Wehlings at ABF, had lunch with him. On top of everything else, Homeland Security has been added to the hoops -- means you may have to have a broker pickup the bees at the plane -- you're not going to be able to drive your truck up to the plane. The licensed broker, who has all of the clearances, etc. will have to go fetch. Up side, may provide an additional bee-related job or two. Ok, my suggestion to this list -- had a talk with some of the USDA scientists -- they have restrictions on making statements on anything political/legal. Ask a USDA scientist to show up in a pesticide litigation, response will probably be no. Expect them to be advocates, same. But, ask them a direct question or a copy of a paper, and they can/should answer. Sooo, since he made a presentation at ABF, someone from this list might ask Wayne to respond to the questions raised here on this list. And, if he's willing, he might post his PPT presentation. If his agency is not willing/hasn't the space to post it, we will be glad to put it on our academic web site for everyone -- but only with Wayne's permission. Cheers Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:29:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: U.S. import & export of bees (was Bummer!!! ) In-Reply-To: <000901c4fef7$02c727c0$2dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Simple open question - Are "Russian" genetic lines being tested, selected for and being distributed in any other country other than the States - by supported agencies? Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 04:58:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: U.S. import & export of bees (was Bummer!!! ) In-Reply-To: <41F08518.6040709@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cannada, Germany and New Zeland that I know of, there are some other countries involved unofficially. Charlie Harper russianbreeder.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:55:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: 2-heptanone in wax Hi Jerry and Everyone, If I remember correctly, 2-hep, in small amounts, works as an effective bee repellant also. It's interesting to note that phoretic mites will drop off of bees when they become agitated. On another note, I have observed almost all of the touted benefits of using small cell comb, except mite tolerance, when I've put bees back into clean, large cell sized hives. Many of the benefits, such as better overwintering, spring buildup, etc. appear to be as related to the clean wax, as they do to cell size. Although, I know top bar hives aren't for everyone, comb can easily and rapidly be replaced in them. That's been one factor for my experimenting with them. While working bees commercially, it was common to find combs that had been in constant use for 30 to 50 years. It appears that feral hives are recycled about every 3 years or so. That might be a better lifespan for comb. And Maybe even less if a person treats bees with pesticides. Regards Dennis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:12:34 -0500 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: recycling comb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Concerning comb replacement, Dennis Murrell said "It appears that feral hives are recycled about every 3 years or so. That might be a better lifespan for comb." Dennis, I have also observed that feral comb is never as black as some I have seen in the hives of commercial beekeepers. But, do you have any evidence that feral bees recycle comb? Or, is your comment based on the color/condition of feral comb? I just can't imagine 'feral' bees having an instinct in this regard that our 'domesticated' bees do not have. And once bees get into a climate as far north as Upstate New York, let alone Vermont, Maine, Canada, etc. wax moths are not really a problem so 3-5 year recycling principally by exposure to these guys is unlikely. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:59:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: U.S. import & export of bees (was Bummer!!! ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are "Russian" genetic lines being tested, in an other country other than the > States - by supported agencies? Yes, I am trying a few hives here in Ontario Canada. There is 1 breeder that I am aware of here. Kent Stienburg Ontario, Canada :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:23:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: recycling comb Hi Lloyd: My first reaction to your post about wax moths not being a problem in New York was 'What?!?!' My father lives about 60 miles north of you up in Fort Ann. The wax moths are alive and well there when empty comb is around. Then I started thinking, he must mean they are not a problem in healthy hives which I'll agree with. But, then healthy colonies will keep them at bay just about anywhere, won't they? Here in Anchorage, they truly aren't a problem. We don't have them here. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:09:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: recycling comb In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > I just can't imagine 'feral' bees having an instinct in this regard > that our 'domesticated' bees do not have. And once bees get into a > climate as far north as Upstate New York, let alone Vermont, Maine, > Canada, etc. wax moths are not really a problem so 3-5 year recycling > principally by exposure to these guys is unlikely. Wax moths are alive and well in Maine. So they could be naturally recycled even up here. Also, feral bees may not survive in one location as long as we think. It is just that the location is re-colonized and we think it is continuous. I have seen that in a couple of places where the landowner said that the bees had been there "forever". I never saw wax moths in my equipment, but have seen them in others. I store all my supers in an unheated barn. Tony Jadczak brings frames of diseased combs found in Maine colonies to various State chapter meetings and one is wax moth. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:21:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: U.S. import & export of bees (was Bummer!!! ) In-Reply-To: <41F08518.6040709@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all that answered my simple question! The reason that it was posed in the first place was due to Bob Harrison's comments relating to the apparent limited genetic pool of the Russian lines present in breeders "hands" Correct me if I am reading things in an incorrect manner. If the alleles present are of limited diversity, giving rise to an enhanced risk of early inbreeding problems - what is the future for those introducing them into their stocks? Are individuals introducing genetic material, something that will not have the possibility of being refreshed in the future by purchases of good genetic stock. Beekeepers using Russian material will effectively have introduced material that even if considered useful is at a dead end. Am I correct in thinking that this developmental effort may be likened to designing of a car, then building a prototype, selling a few models, followed by the manufacturer then dumping the project and getting rid of any spares. Even if the car worked, it would be no use without the backup of official spare parts! Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::