From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:38:03 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.7 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL,ONE_TIME, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD3A48E0B for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEFvLc013111 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0502A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 83484 Lines: 1847 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:47:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: almond pollination Hello All, Greetings from a warmer place than Missouri in winter! Chuck'Is fears are of course valid concerns but will not be enough to stop out of state pollination of California's almond crop.The almond industry is in dire straits and will persue drstic measures to keep the crops pollinated if the U.S. beekeeper can not provide the service. Super mites were created by the worlds failed *long term* methods of varroa control with chemicals. It is ironic that those beekeepers having the most trouble with *super varroa* either created the problem in their yards by use of illegal treatments or using legal treatments against label. Even using legal chemicals as per label breeds a super varroa.We were warned by the worlds best beekeeping minds *super varroa* were coming. If your choice of varroa control is the use of chemicals then rotation of chemicals will buy time but sooner or later you will see a varroa resistant to the chemicals you are using. Placing your hives in an area of hives with *super varroa* will get the problem started in your hives without a doubt. I was asked to do an article on the pro's & con's of almond pollination from the commercial beekeepers perspective which might address Chuck's concerns and give readers of The American Bee Journal insight into almond pollination. The article will be in the April 2005 issue. Will be back in Missouri in a few weeks. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:25:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: almond pollination In-Reply-To: <200502011647.j11GQdKR024884@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes ,the almond orchards are a great melting pot for spreading the current (and old) pests and diseases.I am sure the small hive beetle will be the next thing brought here that we will have to deal with.Maybe the so-called super varroa came here from elsewhere(seems I first heard the term used a few years ago about Florida varroa).No matter.Because almonds provide many jobs and are one of the few things this country still exports(helping reduce the trade deficit) hives WILL keep coming and so will the pests.Beekeepers will just HAVE TO keep up with the latest research and info in addition to monitoring pest levels or go out of business,simple as that.I am not convinced there is a totally varroa resistant strain of bee that can survive the onslaught of hives crashing all around them ,but I think there are bees that can with a little help from time to time.Right now I need a bee that can survive Californias 'super bears'!(56 hives destroyed last season). ---Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:25:37 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: almond pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Does anyone know if the super varroa succumbs to formic and oxalic acids? Acid treatments require a bit more labor but, if commercial beekeepers get more per hive in pollination, perhaps the extra labor is justified? At least until the super bee emerges on the horizon. Waldemar Long Island, NY >>...super varroa came here from elsewhere(seems I first heard the term used a few years ago about Florida varroa) ... Beekeepers will just HAVE TO keep up with the latest research... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:59:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: almond pollination In-Reply-To: <20050201.132607.17204.67420@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hoping not to cause my name to be put in a mud bucket and totally immersed until it is no longer recognized - BUT! From much of the press that recently and is presently doing the rounds, there appears to be much surprise at the devastating consequences of Varroa infestation. Why? The effects on Honey bee colonies when hosting this mite is well known. The effects have been seen in many regions, countries over several decades. Varroa mites forgive very little - if anything. * As a commercial industry, the owners of the pollinators should have seen the potential crisis coming. A fixed date being unknown for sure - but definitely coming. The Almond industry themselves being apparently dependent on the bee colonies should have been aware also. * If not - something needs radically changing in strategic planning. If they were, then still again radical change in forward planning I suggest is in order. Resistance to treatment is nothing new. Varroa are treated, therefore resistance is theoretically inevitable. Does this crisis suggest that Beekeepers need to associate with other groups that depend on the former to plan for predicted problems? To my way of thinking , it does. Surely a "win win" situation. Cash to deal with required knowledge gaps coming from the strength of joined up association. I take the present day situation as a dire warning that the ability of beekeepers to remain as an independent entity is at an end. The attitude of " Only eccentrics beekeep" attitude is no longer possible for the long term. Even NASA requires cooperation from other in the modern world. Taking Varroa as the example, treatments using Formic, Oxalic acids appear to have less of a resistance creating potential. These may or may not save the day. Probably not, according to many time stretched individuals. Present day application methods are too time consuming, cost in labour excessive being suggested as reasons for non application of such treatments . Therefore, taking that there is little to replace these molecules at the present, it would IMHO have been logical for the threatened industries to have got together before hand. Creating a cash process that would have supplied the required finance to get research done at a faster rate - faster than what the Beekeepers them selves could generate. If this was tried but failed - then the Almond growers have themselves reaped a previewed situation. If this was not the case - read *----* again. I am not being smug in writing this mail - the potential threats to my region are the same as the ones reaping havoc in certain USA regions. In my own small way, I am trying to limit mite damage by being aware of what their status is in my colonies. I might get hit hard one day, if not from Varroa, then maybe Res.AFB, I don't know, whatever. What I do know is that I need to be educated, aware of present day threats, more than thoughtful of future situations that are foreseen - then voice my opinions and try to get things done that help relieve the situation. As an end note to this, here in Manitoba, Canada, Canola (Rape, Colza) is tres important! "Round Up Ready" seed is in fashion. I foresee big potential problems with this product - when they will occur, I do not know. In this particular case, the influence of the beekeepers is limited. BUT we could suffer from the use of this technology. Canola and Beekeepers should be investigating the consequences of resistance increasing in targeted plant populations. And now, back to ........... Regards, Peter. Manitoba, Canada. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 04:43:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Present day application methods are too time consuming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Taking Varroa as the example, treatments using Formic, Oxalic acids > appear to have less of a resistance creating potential. These may or > may not save the day. Probably not, according to many time stretched > individuals. Present day application methods are too time consuming, > cost in labour excessive being suggested as reasons for non > application of such treatments. That's the excuse, but, having used formic, and having observed the use of oxalic, I can't say that this argument has any merit at all. Treating with either acid is much cheaper than using Checkmite+ or Apistan according to recommendations, and just as easy, but many people do not understand that. I think the problem is that there is apprehension about legality, especially in the US, and, further that these methods require proactive mangement, and good management is a scarce resource in many (most?) beekeeping operations. Many beekeepers are behind the curve daily, and driven by necessity, not by well-laid plans, and are looking for a convenience product. Just so there is no misunderstanding, when I am saying acids are cheap to use, I'm talking about beekeeper-devised acid application methods, *not* the proprietary acid delivery products that have been working at coming to market. The latter - IMO - are less adaptable, usually involve something that has to be taken out of the hive eventually (an extra operation comparted to my personal favourites, listed below) and higher cost, but may have a place in the scheme of things. Here, I'm talking about either the Dri-loc 50 pads or Apinovar application methods for formic, and either the drizzling or evaporation methods for oxalic. Miteaway and Mitegone and the gel pads and proprietary bottle and tray applicators are examples of proprietary methods that require purchase of consumables and equipment besides the acids themselves. As I say, they have their place, but not in my hives, thanks. OK. If it costs about $4 plus labour, per hive, for materials to treat once with either of the two strips (and extra labour to remove the strips) , and the cost of material for either formic or oxalic is a matter of pennies, then it seems to me that a beekeeper has *at least* an extra $4 per hive, once or twice a year depending on locale, to cover the cost of any additional labour, equipment, or bother involved in the acid treatments (not that there necessarily is any extra work with acids), and -- as far as I can see -- especially for a beekeeper with a few hundred hives or more, that cost is very low, and a one-time hit. The acid treatments can require a one-time investment in education and set-up, some safety equipment, and possibly an applicator, depending on what method is chosen and the scale of operation. One of them (Dri-loc 50 pads) requires multiple trips to the yards, and that may or may not be feasible in some cases. Apinovar requires an up-front investment in the special screened floors. Evaporation requires an evaporator. Nonetheless, any time I have done the math, I have seen huge savings over the use of Apistan or Checkmite+, and when you add in the fact that the beeswax is not contaminated by acid treatments, I cannot see why the advantages or acids -- immediate savings and long term savings -- are not obvious to everyone. For the methods I like, Dri-loc pads are an additional expense, but they are dirt cheap, and disposable. The bees chews them out. The Apinovar floor is a big investment -- equivalent to the cost of four years of treating with strips -- but has the advantage of allowing easy mite monitoring and instant, easy, non-invasive acid application. An acid evaporator can be an expense, but such a device can also be shared around the district. Drizzling needs little in the way of equipment: a large veterinary syringe suffices nicely, I hear. Years back, the need for clunky extra rims, carrying liquid acid around in trucks, slow evaporators, and scaremongering about safty hazards put a lot of people off acids. Now, we know that acids are the answer, along with thymol-based treatments, at least until varroa and acarine-resistant bees become better proven, and more widespread. Nonetheless, acids are not as simple to understand as the chemical strips that worked the same in every region of the continent. Acids can present some problems, especially in wamer southern areas, where there is little annual interruption in brood rearing, and where daytime tmeperatures are high enough to make formic evaporate rapidly. Nonetheless, I think that, with some thinking and management, these problems are manageable. > I am not being smug in writing this mail - the potential threats to > my region are the same as the ones reaping havoc in certain USA > regions. Actually, no. Our climate protects us from the problems of the South. Our long broodless period and harsh winters make things harder for varroa, and allow for effective treatments with acids. Our legal system permits us to use the acids openly without fear of precipitous, drastic and capricious regulatory enforcement action against us. > In my own small way, I am trying to limit mite damage by > being aware of what their status is in my colonies. I might get hit > hard one day, if not from Varroa, then maybe Res.AFB, I don't know, > whatever. If you are monitoring, as you say, you will see it coming, and you have the tools to protect yourself. Acids for varroa and tracheal, radiation against SAFB. Tylosin for backup and emergency use. > What I do know is that I need to be educated, aware of present day > threats, more than thoughtful of future situations that are foreseen Exactly. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:02:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Formic and Oxalic acids Comments: cc: JoTraynor@aol.com In-Reply-To: <420033EF.4080903@mts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The following just came in to me from Joe Traynor: Re: oxalic acid: Under high heat oxalic acid turns to formic acid (with the release of carbon monoxide - CO); so you may essentially be treating with formic if you're using the evaporator. I didn't believe this at first but a beekeeper (smarter than me) sent me a spec sheet on oxalic. I ran it by a person with organic chem background and he said "of course" - he knew the chemical formulas for both - knock a C and on O off oxalic and you've got formic. Both are hazardous - formic probably more than oxalic. FWIW. Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************* * The most formidable weapon against errors of any kind * is reason. * Thomas Paine, 1794 ************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:45:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Formic and Oxalic acids In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Re: oxalic acid: Under high heat oxalic acid turns > to formic acid > (with the release of carbon monoxide - CO); so you > may essentially be > treating with formic if you're using the evaporator. Lifted from the French Belgian list (Aug. 2004). Original post from M. J-M Van Dyck below if you ever want to check my free translation : " According to the Merck index, OA crystals have a merging point around 101-102C. At this temperature, it becomes a liquid and releases its water captured in the crystalline structure. It also immediatly starts its sublimation. Temperatures higher than 60C would lead to OA decomposition that completely occurs for 180C and above, producing FA, CO2, CO and H2O. Nevertheless, the temperature arises progessively and the OA sumblimation is probably complete before the vaporizer rises 180C. But it is not the case if the vaporizer is not cool down before the next utilisation. " As far as I remember, the heating temperature of the varrox vaporizer is indicated in its user manual. It is also written the beekeeper has to cool down the vaporizer in water between 2 hives. Finally, white crystals powder can be observed in hives after sublimation. So if correctly done, it seems the potential decomposition should not be cemplete. Hervé Texte original : " L'index Merck consulté ... il s'avère que le point de fusion de l'acide oxalique cristallisé se situe vers 101-102 degrés C. Il libère alors son eau de cristallisation et fond dedans, devenant donc liquide. [...] Une température supérieure conduirait à une décomposition qui arrive vers les 180 degrés et plus, produisant divers composés tel l'acide formique, du CO2, du CO et de la vapeur d'eau. Bien entendu, il est probable que lors d'une première sublimation, la température s'accroit progressivement et tout l'acide est sublimé bien avant que l'appareil n'atteigne la température de 180 degrés. Ce n'est plus le cas si l'on omet de refroidir l'appareil pour l'opération suivante. " Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 21:18:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Formic and Oxalic acids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Re: oxalic acid: Under high heat oxalic acid turns to formic acid > (with the release of carbon monoxide - CO... and > Lifted from the French Belgian list (Aug. 2004). > Original post from M. J-M Van Dyck below if you ever > want to check my free translation : > > "According to the Merck index, OA crystals have a > merging point around 101-102C. At this temperature, it > becomes a liquid and releases its water captured in > the crystalline structure. It also immediatly starts > its sublimation. No problem. This is not news, and actually, FWIW, Jean-Marie is, or was?, a member of this list and posts here sometimes. We correspond occasionally, and I read his list when I have the time -- and the energy, and I have been even known to post there (my apologies to native francophones). There is often an relationship in timing and content between what shows up there on abeilles@fundp.ac.be, and what we read here. Anyhow... there have been a lot of things said about the acids, some of them true, many of them false, and some, like this, interesting. What does it mean? What does it matter? I really do not know. Having been long aware of this information, some of us have been concerned about the home-built evaporators, especially the really hot ones, but they seem to work. Medhat has been doing some empirical studies on OA, both drizzle and evaporated, and if I understand the results so far, whatever is happening chemically, the process seems to work for those he has observed. I'm sure he will get to the bottom of the question, and , anyhow, the Europeans have been studying OA for a long time. Apparently there are no ill effects from taking liberties with recommended evaporation methods, that I know about. Apparently the process is quite tolerant of procedural variations, and I guess we'll find out in time if some of these guys are decomposing half or more of their OA. I do wonder, though, since I know some of them are using triple the dose that I would. Maybe they need to. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Thinking: Up in Smoke? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:16:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Formic and Oxalic acids Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Having been long aware of this information, some of us have been concerned about the home-built evaporators, especially the really hot ones, but they seem to work. Allen, would you elaborate on the concerns about home-built evaporators? I saw a website explaining how to build an evaporator that can be heated with a propane torch. It looked straightforward but I would like to hear if there are reservations about using such designs. Regards, Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:35:52 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Formic and Oxalic acids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen is right when he says that Europeans have more experience with oxalic acid. We in Finland are novices as the use of oxalic was started about 10 years ago. Russians and Estonians have been evaporation method for about 20 years. I have heard lots of talks about oxalic breaking to formic. I would say that one does not have to bother much about it, as formic also kills varroa. But I would recommend to evaporate oxalic with temperatures below about + 180 - 200 C . I have met beekeepers who have home made evaporators ( 1 feet of steel pipe with tight lid, propane torch, + air mattress pump to put the gas going) One fellow told that for many years he did not have good results. Then he heard about oxalic breaking and invested 10 euro for thermometer to be able to see the actual temperature in tube. He tries to keep it between + 100 and +150 C. He said that the efficacy increased a lot. At this point I must say that I recommend oxalic in water/ sugar solution because it is safer for beekeepers. Beekeepers have taken this advice. Less than 5 % of beekeepers who use oxalic evaporate it here. Allen >I do wonder, though, since I know >some of them are using triple the dose that I would. Maybe they need to. Most likely they don't need to. As with fluvalinate and antibiotics we always have beekeepers who think that doubling or tripling the recommended amounts give better results. I bet they drive always 150 mph as that way they don't have to be so long on road, less chance for an accident .. Ari Seppälä Finland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:04:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "H.Kroese" Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Formic and Oxalic acids In-Reply-To: <001e01c50a1f$311d60c0$bf24d5d4@pomi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "At this point I must say that I recommend oxalic in water/ sugar solution because it is safer for beekeepers. Beekeepers have taken this advice. Less than 5 % of beekeepers who use oxalic evaporate it here." Ari Seppälä Finland I fully agree with Ari Seppälä I use also the trickling method. It take's 1-2 minutes time per hive, and is safer. Take the lid off, count the frames with bees. Then trickle 5 Ml per Frame/bees. solution 37 gram oxalic in 1 liter 1:1 water/sugar. I counted (for the expiriment)from December 2 - December 15 the natural mite drop. December 15 the treatment. Counted 14 hives daily until Januari 31. If your intrested in the results numbers, and the grafics, visit my site. http://home.hetnet.nl/~kroese/ sub page "Varoa bestrijding" (sorry Dutch language) But the numbers and the graphics speak for themselves. Hennie Kroese Netherlands........... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 06:32:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Barrett Subject: Making cosmetic products from beeswax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All We recently talked on the Irish List about impending changes in EU legislation requiring beekeepers to observe a strict code of practice in the purity of beeswax used for making cosmetic products. The recent exchanges on this subject make for gloomy reading. I know of some beekeepers in Ireland who are making a tidy sum from selling these products and fair play to them. But they must now be wondering when the inspector cometh. But when I think of the EU and Ireland authorising Bayvarol and then turning around and telling us that our wax is polluted, then this Irishman's blood begins to boil. It appears to me that we are slowly but inexorably sleep walking our way into a horribly polluted world and beekeeping is slowly but surely going down the tubes. And the entire scene is being assisted by the failure of organisations like FIBKA (The Federation of Irish Beekeeping Associations) who are doing nothing about it, except covering their legal asses, as they did recently at the AGM of the Galtee Bee Breeders. Granted some of the FIBKA personnel are putting together a grand show for Apimondia 2005 in Dublin, but when all of the glitz and the razamatazz is over, and everybody has thanked everybody else, and the delegates have returned to their own countries full of the joys of an Irish visit, we will still be slowly sleep walking like zombies towards a beekeeping scenario full of pollution as they have in the USA. And the tragedy is that it could be different in Ireland at least, if FIBKA led rather than followed. But I suppose that you cannot teach dinosaurs of any age new tricks. Maybe that is why we no longer have dinosaurs in the wild! Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:44:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Formic and Oxalic acids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Less than 5 % of beekeepers who use oxalic evaporate it > > here." > I use also the trickling method. It take's 1-2 minutes time per hive, > and is safer...Take the lid off, count the frames with bees. Then > trickle 5 Ml per Frame/bees. For smaller operators, this makes sense, and seems to be all that is needed. Over here, though, larger operators (500 to 10,000 hives or more) are attracted to the idea of being able to treat each hive in a minute or less, without opening hives, so evaporation is the method of choice. Several nearby beekeepers have been developing machines that evaporate the oxalic and blow the vapour into the hives through the entrances. See the pictures for Friday 7 January 2005 at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2005/diary010105.htm, http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/cor.htm and http://www.honeybeeworld.com/formic/ > I counted... from December 2 - December 15 the natural > mite drop. December 15 the treatment. Counted 14 hives > daily until Januari 31... visit my site. > http://home.hetnet.nl/~kroese/ sub page "Varoa bestrijding" They do, indeed. Very impressive! > (sorry Dutch language) > But the numbers and the graphics speak for themselves. I'm looking forward to getting a translation into English, though, since Worldlingo does a terrible job, and babelfish is not much better. My Dutch friends are on the road, travelling East, AFAIK, so maybe you could translate a few key words for us, like geisoleerde, Ramers, kastjes, zwerm, heathland ... I can guess, but I might guess badly. Here is what bablefish makes of it. See (http://tinyurl.com/5wflc): --- Of a part of my volken I the natural me at fall has counted firstly. This of 2 up to and including 15 December. On 15 December I these volken with 5 Ml oxaalzuur have treated by occupy window. The number of occupied windows and the number of administered Ml have been reflected below this table. Noticing that this windows of double honey chamber format is. 29 Cm high, therefore about 7 cm higher than normal simplex broedraam. The first 7 columns is (high) geisoleerde 6 windows kastjes. The following 7 columns is (high) 10 ramers on 1 broedbak ingewinterd. The last column is total, what which day, has fallen. This total has been reflected in 1st the graph. 2e the graph reflects 7 X 6ramers. 3e the graph is 7 X 10Ramers. (Table) On 14-1-2005 I have 6Ramer No. 4 given because of the high me at fall in sum, and the still daily fall, for test 2e a treatment of 30 Ml. This kastje have occupied all 6 windows with bees. The 1st day after this treatment 26, and the 2e days 34 at with regard to the total not much, but I have been comparatively expected that there the coming days still what will come. There are so far no disadvantageous impact see v.w.b. dead bees. They have totally had ml in 2 treatments, however, 60. On 18-1-2005 I have given 10Ramers 22 and 17 (extra ) a vaporisation. This to be able assess treatment the effectiveness of the drop. On 23-Jan. were the score respectively cupboard 22 =.35.1808 = 2% and cupboard 17 =.82/2732 = 3% at. cupboard number 17 is a large zwerm (dark bees) which I have created previous year, and young laying Buckfast have introduced queen. Me is notable the large number of at in this people. One claims that a zwerm takes along little at to!! this zwerm had I perhaps after the moer lays, and still open brood also with oxaal has had treat. cupboard numbers 1,.11 and 7 are 3 of the 5 castes which have been to the heathland. After the heathland they came at home with only 3 a 4 windows brood, full with heathland honey in the broedkamer. They have now still a reasonable number of windows with bijen(meer I had then expected) at these volken was the natural fall rather high with regard to the fall after the treatment. These volken have still old wreck. 6ramers have with regard to 10Ramers the low natural fall, and a high fall after the treatment. This fall after the treatment apprehend also longer. Perhaps comes this because these young queens have still what broods?? (graphs) --- One thing that has not been resolved, in my mind, is exactly what the dangers of oxalic acid are. Some people make it sound like a drastically dangerous substance in any amount, with any level of contact, and others don't seem to worry at all, handling it like baby powder. I gather that dilute OA is widely encountered in our diet, and, assuming that a person does not expose skin to the concentrated acid for an extended time, breathe large amounts of dust, or get it into the eyes, that the risks may be minimal. Don't get me wrong. I am NOT advocating carelessness or a cavalier attitude to OA, but does anyone have the real info on the risks? allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:14:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Formic and Oxalic acids In-Reply-To: <001501c50a9e$1c166f30$10ad5ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > Don't get me wrong. I am NOT advocating carelessness or a cavalier > attitude > to OA, but does anyone have the real info on the risks? You can purchase OA at any hardware store as wood bleach. The label includes - Danger: toxic irritant. Causes eye burn. Skin irritation, harmful if swallowed. See other cautions on back panel. Poison. The cautions on the back mirrors the front with "see physician immediately" along with flushing eyes or skin with water and drinking one or two glasses of water if ingested. The only handling precaution is to wear rubber gloves when using. No mention of vapor like formic would have. In essence, the precautions are fairly generic for handling a "toxic irritant". It is interesting that on the US gov site for hazardous materials that Formic is listed but oxalic is not. Sort of makes sense if you consider you can buy oxalic at a hardware store in a plastic tub. Formic is liquid with vapor and can do great harm, while oxalic is solid and no problem with vapor in that state. It was also interesting that Formic vapor is explosive. http://hazmat.dot.gov/pubs/erg2004/psn_o.htm http://hazmat.dot.gov/pubs/erg2004/psn_f.htm As far as using more than the recommended, there is a point where more OA does nothing more than kill bees. There have been several European studies that arrived at the optimum trickle dosage, posted in this thread. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:53:16 -0500 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Plasticell vs. Duragilt. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, I searched the crap out of the archives, and [tried to] follow the thread on Duragilt vs. Plasticell. So I figure if either one is = damaged, it is trash. But the jury appeared to be out. Being the incorrigible = "Type-A" personality, and as much as I enjoy the Anal-Retentive-handiwork of = wiring foundation, the prospect of doing 500 frames is not looking like a possibility. =20 What is the final determination form the experience on the list? Black = for Brood nest? Plasticell or Duragilt? Or something else? Thanks JK Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen =D5hr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:37:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Plasticell vs. Duragilt. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jonathan B. Kriebel wrote > Ok, I searched the crap out of the archives, Don't worry, there's still plenty of crap left. Fortunately there's gold in them thar archives too! > Plasticell or Duragilt? Hints of recommendations are starting to come out that plastic in general is less than optimal for honey bees. Some of the issues are the plastic "dampens" heat transfer in winter clusters and "dampens" vibrations of dancing bees (for those who buy into the dance communication hypotheses). As would be expected, the ideal choice is BEESWAX! Plasticell pros and cons: Quick, easy, what you pay extra in cost you more than make up in saved labor. Pierco can go straight from the shipping box into the hive. You CAN'T beat that for labor savings. But, it's plastic. It ain't beeswax. It's not natural, you can't organicly produce honey if you use plastic (if indeed one can produce organic honey at all). Duragilt: quick and easy (although on the occasions when I did use it I recall I still had to use pins to hold it in place, and I still had to nail the wedge so it's less quick and easy than plasticell), it's still plastic but a significant magnitude thinner, once the wax is pulled away from the plastic sheet the bees will never again use the bare spot, although some have said that if you recoat the bare spot with melted beeswax the bees will again draw comb. I don't doubt this but have never tried it, I gave up on Duragilt ages ago. Personal preference: Wood frames, plastic foundation. What usually decides the issue for most beekeepers is size of operation balanced with time constraints. It my world, size of operation and free time are inversely proportional. I do not doubt that the ideal situation for the bees is pure beeswax comb. Arguably, top bar hives are as good as it gets. As a beekeeper has less and less free time to wire foundation, the appeal of plastic increases. That is what Jonathan is discovering he's up against when he writes, "the prospect of wiring 500 frames is not looking like a possibility." I stopped using Duragilt because sooner or later one encounters the bald spots mentioned above. With recommendations of comb recycling, perhaps a bald spot is an ideal opportunity to recycle a comb. If so, what I've always considered a con about Duragilt becomes a pro! And if/when it comes down to burning frames, the thin plastic in Duragilt is less noxious that the thick plastic foundation, both of which are less noxious than ALL plastic. In regards to burning, again pure beeswax wins hands down. So in a timeless world, pure beeswax wins every time. Once one becomes time constrained the choice of which plastic one uses is really a matter of personal preference. Incidently, this issue is one of the presentation that will be part of the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association seminar to be held here at UAlbany on March 12, 2005. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0501B&L=bee-l&P=R2857 "Plastic frames and foundation: good for the beekeeper, but good for the bees?" Aaron Morris - shamelessly plugging SABA Seminar 2005! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:00:00 -0500 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Plastic foundation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "What is the final determination form the experience on the list? Black for Brood nest? Plasticell or Duragilt? Or something else?" Duragilt is an outstanding foundation, but Plasticell is clearly superior. Plasticell is the best foundation I have ever used. Nonetheless, I no longer use it. The price difference between Plasticell and Permadent is just too great. Permadent is just a shade less desirable than Plasticell, but costs 40% less! If there is a difficulty with Permadent it is that they will not ship fewer than 100 deep sheets or 150 mediums. These are standard box packs. I buy in lots of 1,000 per annum and buy enough at one time so that the shipment weighs at least 200 pounds. Buying 1,000 a year qualifies for the lowest price. 200 pounds qualifies for the lowest rates from UPS. Telephone 605-345-3211. Speak to Mike or Nathan, owners. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:37:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Plasticell vs. Duragilt. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > as much as I enjoy the > Anal-Retentive-handiwork of wiring foundation, the prospect of doing > 500 frames is not looking like a possibility. > What is the final determination form the experience on the list? > Black for Brood nest? Plasticell or Duragilt? Or something else? In a side-by side test, we found black Pierco one-piece frames to be distinctly superior when compared to several other plastic foundations. See http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2000/diary040100.htm#Research We did not include wax foundation in the test, but, in my experience, wax foundation varies as much -- or more -- than plastic, meaning such a test would have to use several brands and sizes of wax to reach any conclusion. Moreover, I am sure that wax foundation varies from batch to batch, and significantly with storage and handling. In addition to those variations, when using wax, there is a the very real possibility of buying adulterated wax and also the possibility of chemical contamination in the foundation wax. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:25:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Plasticell vs. Duragilt. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > See > http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2000/diary040100.htm#Research Ooops! Wrong URL. See http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:54:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Formic and Oxalic acids Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original The physical properties of oxalic acid may be of interest in this connection. The stuff one buys is usually oxalic acid dihydrate, which is a crystal which has two water molecules attached to each oxalic acid molecule. The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the following properties for oxalic acid dihydrate: On heating: 1) The water of hydration leaves at 101.5 degrees C. The water boils off leaving anhydrous oxalic acid crystals. 2) At 157 degrees C the oxalic acid starts to sublime (goes directly from solid to gas) 3) At 189 degrees C the oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to formic acid and carbon monoxide. Best regards Donald Aitken -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 03/02/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 23:25:04 +0530 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dr Rajiv K Gupta Organization: JNVU, Jodhpur Subject: Re: Chemical composition of bee attractants MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Bee-L Subscribers, Can anyone write me about the chemical composition of some bee attractants. I intend to use them for bee biodiversity studies in aricultural landscapes here. Dr. Rajiv K. Gupta Associate Professor Department of Zoology Jai Narain Vyas University Jodhpur 342 005, India Ph. +91-291-272 0839 URL: http://geocities.com/beesind [An Updating Bibliography of the Bees of the World, Fifth updated issue in progress] : http://geocities.com/beesind2 [An Annotated Catalogue of The Bee Species of the Indian Region, Continuously updated]. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:06:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Nelson Subject: Bees moving Greetings all, Saw a first this morning and thought it was worthy of mention. I live on Highway 81 in Northeast Nebraska. This is (one of) the major corridor(s) for north south movement of bees from East Texas into the Dakotas. The first I saw was what appeared to be a semi load of bees going north in February. We see a lot of activity going south from September through even April and the northward migration starting in April thru July. I see many times loads of empty equipment are netted to prevent robbing and secure the load. But I know of no reason for a load of story and a halves on pallets to be headed north this time of year. My bet is they were headed for I-90 in SD to go west to you know where. Bob Nelson Norfolk, NE :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:15:16 -0500 Reply-To: jkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, Ltd Subject: Re: Plasticell vs. Duragilt. In-Reply-To: <63D883CB0A1B204EB053673DD882CB5309BF7865@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron Morris: "... It's not natural, you can't organically produce honey if you use plastic (if indeed one can produce organic honey at all)..." I planned to get the unwaxed [Plasticell], and use our own wax to coat it. We product our honey according to the EU organic standards, since there really is none in the US. However, I did not think about the plastic vs. organic requirement, so this may be moot. We do not claim organic honey, unless we can CPS the bees and track where they go, I don't feel it honest to do so. However, we label as "Organically Produced," and explain the above on our back label...Thanks to all...JK Jonathan B. Kriebel Das Sauen Õhr Farm 3229 Zepp Rd. Green Lane, PA 18054-2357 Telephone: (610) 864-8581 Facsimile: (215) 234-8573 jbkriebel@speakeasy.net ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 19:59:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Ruzicka Subject: Formic & Oxalic Acid Benefits Does anyone have data or information on the beneficial side effects of using oxalic acid in the hive? We know formic acid does the following: -Kills Tracheal and Varroa mites -Is an organic treatment with 70-100% efficacy -Mites do not build resistance to it -It can be used several times a year -It delays resistance to pesticides -Increases hygienic behavior -Reduces Nosema by 80% -Cleans colonies of Chalk Brood -Deters the Lesser Wax moth :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:16:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bees moving In-Reply-To: <200502052006.j15Jsx55008004@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii But I know of no reason for a load of story and a halves on pallets to be headed north this time of year. My bet is they were headed for I-90 in SD to go west to you know where. Reply: Wonder why up and then left to west instead of just west to begin with on southern route? Any thoughts? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:28:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Formic & Oxalic Acid Benefits In-Reply-To: <200502060059.j160x3VM016900@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill, See: http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/index-f.html Click onto research - varroa. You will be able to read about Formic and Oxalic. Whilst this thread is running: How much metal corrosion is caused by these two acids in bee hives? - I have seen metal entrances that have a fair bit of damage after formic acid treatment. Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 20:53:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bees moving MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My bet is they were headed for I-90 in SD to go > west to you know where. The only problem is that I-90 doesn't go to you know where -- or anywhere even near you know where. My guess is that he forgot his wallet, and was going back for it, or maybe the suntan lotion. Either that, or he took a wrong turn. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 01:13:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Nelson Subject: Re: Bees moving Allen and Dee caught me not doing my home work. I failed to get a map out and take a look before making a presumptive statement. I-90 does go nowhere near where I assumed-northern California. Perhaps he (or she, don't want to get caught assuming again) was lost or back tracking. Wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself anyway. Point is that the bee business never fails to amaze me. The latest phenomenon in California is just another chapter of the saga. The mobility of the industry as evidenced by putting bees on rail cars in early years to what we see today of thousands of semi loads moving each year (many of hte same ones multiple times) has always intrigued me. Beekeepers are a very responsive lot and move on opportunity and change, something most other factions of society have a great deal of difficulty doing. Examples are starting to see loads of supers going south in May, far too late to make up hives. They were going to the tallow in Texas, a somewhat new thing of making 150-200 pounds of bakery grade honey in a little over a month in May and June. And then turning around to go north to North Dakota for the late alfalfa and sunflower flows for the same crop potential. And recently, honey prices reaching record highs and beekeepers striping honey out of the bottom brood nest. Something we saw 20 years ago when Uncle Sam was giving us $.70. Just talk to some who have been around longer than I and you will hear more of the like. I know what Dee is thinking and probably will say about now. And it is appropriate that Allen was the other respondent as this gets into the honey production rather than beekeeping per se. Fact is you still have to take into account a little beekeeping to produce honey. Good example is the package bee and queen producer setting the stage for the Canadian honey producer to stock their hives. It is a matter of either doing something for yourself or paying some one else to do it for you so you can focus on your task at hand. Couple the complexity of bee biology and uncertainty of weather with trying to do too much one is walking a fine line. Beekeepers tend to do this with finesse or are such a resilient bunch you never would know different. I think it ends up the honeybee is the creature to awe. I wish I was the one smart enough to have said that they survive and do what they do in spite of what we do to them. I have already heard talk of scrapping part or all of the summer honey crop for bee production. I will be interesting to see what happens. Bob Nelson :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 06:43:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bees moving MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Wonder why up and then left to west instead of just west to > begin with on southern route? Any thoughts? ...and from another correspondent: > Is you know where "Almonds"? That was my assumption. Actually, my reply was somewhat tongue in cheek, as I was partner in a Computer Shop just off I-90 in Spokane back in 1983, so I know I-90 only too well, but now that I think about it, everything becomes clear. Bees going to Seattle in Feb? I don't think so. Redmond maybee. Redmond is only 10 miles or so from the west end of I-90. That must be it. I hear Bill Gates is buying foreign currencies and silver. With the price of bees going up, maybe bees are his latest hedge. Can Warren Buffet bee far behind? We are changing our rating from a 'hold' to 'Buy! Buy! Buy'! allen All material presented herein is believed to be reliable but we cannot attest to its accuracy. Investment recommendations may change and readers are urged to check with their beekeeping counselors before making any beekeeping decisions. Opinions expressed in these reports may change without prior notice. allen and/or the staff at BEE-L may or may not have investments in any of the beehives cited above. PAST RESULTS ARE NOT INDICATIVE OF FUTURE RESULTS. THERE IS RISK OF LOSS AS WELL AS THE OPPORTUNITY FOR GAIN WHEN INVESTING IN BEES. WHEN CONSIDERING ALTERNATIVE INVESTMENTS, INCLUDING BEES, YOU SHOULD CONSIDER VARIOUS RISKS INCLUDING THE FACT THAT SOME BEEKEEPERS: OFTEN ENGAGE IN LEVERAGING AND OTHER SPECULATIVE INVESTMENT PRACTICES THAT MAY INCREASE THE RISK OF LOSS, CAN BE ILLIQUID, ARE NOT REQUIRED TO PROVIDE PERIODIC PRICING OR VALUATION INFORMATION TO INVESTORS, MAY INVOLVE COMPLEX TAX STRUCTURES AND DELAYS IN DISTRIBUTING IMPORTANT TAX INFORMATION, ARE NOT SUBJECT TO THE SAME REGULATORY REQUIREMENTS AS OTHER BUSINESSES, OFTEN CHARGE HIGH FEES, AND IN MANY CASES THE UNDERLYING INVESTMENTS ARE NOT TRANSPARENT AND ARE KNOWN ONLY TO THE BEEKEEPER. Communications from BEE-L are intended solely for informational purposes. Statements made by various authors, and other contributors do not necessarily reflect the opinions of BEE-L, and should not be construed as an endorsement by BEE-L, either expressed or implied. BEE-L is not responsible for typographic errors or other inaccuracies in the content. We believe the information contained herein to be accurate and reliable. However, errors may occasionally occur. Therefore, all information and materials are provided "AS IS" without any warranty of any kind. Past results are not indicative of future results. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 08:59:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Bees moving In-Reply-To: <002401c50c51$da38ffa0$8cad5ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fire ant inspections in Arizona would be my guess. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 > > Dee Lusby wrote: > >> Wonder why up and then left to west instead of just west to >> begin with on southern route? Any thoughts? > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 15:10:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Formic & Oxalic Acid Benefits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does anyone have data or information on the beneficial side effects of > using oxalic acid in the hive? I was digging around today and found something most interesting: http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/papers/FORMIC.HTM That was 1997. What *exactly* _is_ the status regarding formic use in the US today? allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:40:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Bees moving MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/5/2005 11:16:11 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, rwnelson@CONPOINT.COM writes: I have already heard talk of scrapping part or all of the summer honey crop for bee production. Bob, Would this be because of the huge losses of bees this year? Kathy Cox, Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets Northern California, 20 hives www.kathycox.frankcox.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:43:21 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Formic & Oxalic Acid Benefits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We know formic acid does the following: > -Increases hygienic behavior > -Reduces Nosema by 80% > -Cleans colonies of Chalk Brood > -Deters the Lesser Wax moth Can Bill cite the references for these claims. Thanks. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:48:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Nelson Subject: Re: Bees moving > >Would this be because of the huge losses of bees this year? > There are several reasons. High pollination demand and prices is the main driver. The other aspect is a large number bees being in California instead of East Texas. Many, many nucs are made in East Texas each spring for honey production in the Midwest. The source of bees to make those nucs has been shifted. Granted that in the past it has been practice to ship bees from the almonds back to East Texas to make these nucs and I am sure this will occur this year as well. This works fine so long as the bees come out of the almonds in good condition, weather cooperates and there are no management loop holes. This is not as reliable as if the bees were in East Texas for the February pollen flow off the pines and wer sitting there getting fattened up with supplemental feed before being split in March. Bob Nelson :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:01:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bees moving In-Reply-To: <420630EF.3090304@cox-internet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob,Charlie, Allen: Question: What if they use the bees normally split in Texas for nucs for almonds instead first, and then bring them back? How will that change the schematics of divides later? Has this person ever sent to almonds before? Sincerely, Dee __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:17:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Smart, Billy Y" Subject: Coons, Possums, Skunks? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks, There is a lot in the archives on skunk predation but not much on coons and possums. Here I have lots of all three and I suspect my hives may be falling victim to one of these critters. I don't think it is skunk because there is no lingering smell and I don't see scratch marks on the entrance boards. The area around my hives is grassy so there are no prints to be seen. I did find one hive with the entrance reducer ajar, but only one of eight. Also, in front of all my hives, along with the expected dead bees, are clumps of dead bees that appear to be scat perhaps, or better yet, clumps of bees that appear were chewed up and spit out. These clumps are right in front of the hives - if they were scat I would expect them to be further away from the hive entrance than they are - hence the theory that they are chewed up and spit out. Or, do bees roll their dead sisters up in clumps like this in the hive to make it easier to carry them out? Anyway, is the above sign an indication of coon or possum predation? I've set a live trap in the yard but I could catch just about anything in it and it not be my target predator. Thanks, Billy Smart Rock, KS :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:56:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gregory Boes Subject: Re: Coons, Possums, Skunks? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Anyway, is the above sign an indication of coon or possum predation? > I've set a live trap in the yard but I could catch just about anything > in it and it not be my target predator. > > Thanks, > > Billy Smart > Rock, KS Fits the description of possum predation to a tee as it was described to me. The description included that the possum would gather the bees in their mouths, suck all the juice out of them, and then spit out the remains, looking like a plug of tobacco. Greg :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:49:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Ruzicka Subject: Chalk Brood & Wax Moth The nosema and chalk brood comes from Czech Research Institute in Dol. Contact Dalibor Titera (beedol@beedol.cz) and it is stated on their product "Formidol" acid pads. The same can be found on the Swiss Research Center (http://www.apis.admin.ch/) The increase of hygienic behavior and wax moth deterrent are our as well as our customers own observations in the use of MiteGone since 1995 and most of this is described in the 32 page handbook from our website: http://www.mitegone.com/forms/Formic%20Acid%20Handbook%20Manual%20B.pdf :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:32:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Bees moving In-Reply-To: <200502071449.j17E2XWh009549@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I doubt that the beekeeper is heading north in February with nucs. We've still got one last big hurrah left from winter -- in these parts, Feb is often the coldest month. On the other hand, last week was unusually warm in MT, the Interstate from the Dakotas to CA was clear and dry. Also heard lots of beekeepers at the national meetings talking about fire ant and other issues, both at the southern passages into CA and some complaints about hang-ups going through Utah. Not a lot of ways over the Rockies -- so if the northern route was open and balmy, why go south? I'm assuming this beekeeper was either heading to the almonds OR hauling empty equipment back to home base in anticipation of spring -- no one said that they saw bees in the boxes. WIth big losses this year in CA, I'll bet more than a few beekeepers will be preparing to set up packages in the spring. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:28:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Nelson Subject: Re: Bees moving >Question: What if they use the bees normally split in Texas >for nucs for almonds instead first, and then bring them >back? It will work but the line is much finer. The bees are stressed from being hauled, loaded, and unloaded-not to mention sitting grouped up in large numbers and not getting fed as timely as maybe necessary. The beekeepers are either reliant on good oversight of their colonies in California or are stressed themselves from forging many extra miles. >How will that change the schematics of divides later? The bees which have wintered in East Texas and be split in March into 2 frame nucs with a queen cell and produce a crop of honey up north. Good hives will run 8-10 frames of brood during that time. These bees are robust with brood and emerging new bees. Even if they make it back by the first part of March they may or may not be ready to split like this for several weeks. The other options are to split in California which is a disadvantage as it is apart from the base of operations and more time away from home. Another option is to return the bees to the Midwest and split with mated queens here. I know of a (now California) beekeeper that successfully did this several years. It's more of what I talked about earlier and walking the fine line. And economics of pollination prices being up and honey prices going down. >Has this person ever sent to almonds before? I am making general references to situations I am aware of involving different beekeepers from previous years. The bees returning from the almonds have varied greatly in condition. This probably is attributable to the condition which they were sent (in some cases), the care they received while there, the hauling, conditions while they were there-all general wear and tear demands of pollination. One beekeeper I know of has sent good bees each time and seen them return anywhere from excellent to poor. Our small lot is in California for the first time this year. They were committed and there long before this shortage. If it works out this year and now having the connections established it may be a situation of raising bees for pollination and taking a honey crop incidentally. Bob Nelson Not claiming to have it figured out but have been around long enough to see many come and go. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:37:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bees moving In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050207112512.03db44f8@selway.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jerry writes: I doubt that the beekeeper is heading north in February with nucs. Reply: Didn't say that he did. Just wanted to know if he moved bees not normally moved, and created a new loop by going first to the almonds for extra money, if then coming back and splitting, might change the game plan later on for varroa control in this areaspecial nitch market. You have any idea if it would? Sincerely, Dee __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:06:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bees moving In-Reply-To: <200502080028.j17NfKGt015735@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob: So if they walk the fine line and they miss a step with breeders in Calif already losing bees too, from what I understand, along with southeast, what areas are left to cover for bees for beekeepers needing replacements? Sincerely, Dee __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 23:22:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: pollination fees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, With all this talk of bees moving in seemingly wrong directions for pollination (or splits, OWHY ). I'd like to ask the group for information of rental fees. Here in Quebec last year the apples were $50, low bush blueberries $100 - $120 and cranberries from $70 to $100. This year prices are expected to be around the same, possible a small increase closer to the required dates if fuel costs increase. Could pollinators post ther fees for crops other than almonds? Please. Peter, Quebec. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::