From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:37:36 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.2 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3F248BC0 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEFvLa013111 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0503D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 134886 Lines: 3025 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 05:42:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Another potential beekeeping ban Comments: To: "Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups. com" In-Reply-To: <000801c52e20$d5400160$e6cf07cf@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It's spring and every year there seems to be news about some community looking to restrict beekeeping in one way or another. It also seems that it is brought up by an unhappy neighbor. to quote from the article " Last week, the council delayed action on calling a public hearing for a proposed ordinance effectively prohibiting beekeeping and ground-feeding of birds as a nuisance." The entire article can be seen here: http://tinyurl.com/5dzle I have seen the beekeeping community come together with letter writing campaigns to the local newspaper turn cities legislators around. It happened in Aurora, Colorado in 2003. Letters that emphasize the positive nature of responsible beekeeping and the benefits of beekeeping on a community seem to be the most effective. If you have an interest in possibly helping preventing Garden City from prohibiting beekeeping you may write the editor of the Garden City Observer at: Joanne Maliszewski Editor Phone: 734-459-2700 EMail: jmaliszewski@oe.homecomm.net In past I have submitted information on like this on a number of beekeeping newsgroups. This time I am only submitting it to BEE-L and Norlandbeekeepers as these are the only 2 beekeeping newsgroups I am currently subscribing to. If you subscribe to others and wish to pass the word, I would encourage you to do so. Tom Patterson Aurora, Colorado. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:23:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Wax issues (was Coumaphos in wax) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, The issue of contaminated wax is a hot topic in private beekeeping circles. Many (if not most commercial beekeepers) would like to simply ignore the problem until the point comes they can not keep bees alive on the comb. Many point to the fact varroa took out half the commercial hives in the U.S. in the early nineties when hives were *basically* (in their opinion) on wax not contaminated with chemicals so the issue is *varroa* and not a contaminated wax problem (in their opinion). I point out then that the beekeepers having the most success with varroa control either are starting with new foundation or have replaced comb on which prior chemicals have been used. When the beekeeper is willing to consider the wax contamination message of Jerry B. as a real *possible cause* of hive death and poor performance then a tough decision has to be made. A decision only a few beekeepers have been willing to make thus far in the U.S.. The logic of the situation is simple at least to me. The test for a single wax contamination can run a couple hundred dollars (as Lloyd S. posted). Another chemical test could run the same. There is not a test for the combination effects on bees. How many hives does one test? only one? For how many different chemicals? Each yard? 5-10 in each yard? All the hives you own? each frame? Get the big picture now? After all the testing is done the solution remains the same does it not? Jerry B. ( respected by myself and the industry) believes contaminated comb is in our beehives and should be rotated out on a regular basis. My *opinion* also. I would rather spend money on new comb than testing! Actually in my opinion the LD50 of a chemical is of little use in our present scenario. The issue is how much contamination can the bees handle and thrive. Once a beekeeper takes the time to look at the situation as a realist. and Listen to the researchers from the bee lab which point to wax contamination being a factor in todays problems then the only conclusion in my opinion is to start a comb rotation out of our beehives. Mine should be completed this spring. Took a few years but I believe will pay dividends later on. My bees look the best they have in years. I have seen the lowest amount of winter deadouts in a decade! 4-5%. I admit in years in which I have wintered many old queens losses have ran as high as the low twenty percent range. As Jerry B. has pointed out many times environmental wax contamination happens. Many large beekeepers will not vary from the beekeeping methods handed down from generation to generation. Grandpa used to say old comb was best! Grandpa kept comb 50 years old in the U.S.. As long as the bees were thriving little thought was given to replacing comb by Grandpa. I have had Grandpa Beekeeper ask a higher price for his 50 year old pristine comb than brood nest comb with new comb in the past. Grandpa beekeeper believed in the beekeeping success of using 30-50 year old brood nest comb. Jerry Bromenshenk knows exactly what I am talking about above! Changing Grandpa beekeepers mind about a beekeeping subject is not easy . Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:56:34 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DeWayne Lumpkin Subject: Re: "tens of thousands of hives crashing" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L Readers: It's certainly telling that "allen" says - "good reporters stick to the facts" - in the same message that he says - "I try to be a good reporter" - and then states - "I did not count." "allen" also says - "I would guess that the posts that actually were about 'tens of thousands of hives crashing' could be counted on both hands with fingers left over." "allen" alone had eight (I counted) messages posted at BEE-L under the subject line "tens of thousands of hives crashing" - between October 24th and October 28th. "allen's" own postings accounted for his guesstimated figure of counting on both hands with (only) two fingers left over. In fact, I counted at least 55 messages under the heading "tens of thousands of hives crashing," "Weaver: (was hives crashing)" and "Hives crashing (was small hive beetle)" in October and November. (Linked by a common origin/topic and use of "hives crashing" in the subject line). Additionally, messages about acid treatments and a promising fungus were in direct response to messages about the mite problems and an alarming number of hives crashing (in excess of the "tens of thousands" when all was said and done). As to his closing jab: "Then again, BEE-L has no "message boards", so maybe the post refers to another BEE-L?" "Message Boards" is the most common description of what Internet users will find at _www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L_ (http://www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L) . Yes, BEE-L is a list-serve that e-mails messages to participants, but additionally, those "messages" are posted at their Web site. Since BEE-L uses the terminology "messages" on their Web site, I can only guess that "allen" is taking exception to the word "boards." Messages posted on a Web site, such as those at _www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L_ (http://www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L) are most commonly referred to as a message boards (distinctly different from individual messages e-mailed to participants and available for any Internet user to access and read). So far as I can tell, "allen," for reasons unknown to me, seeks to call my reporting skills into question by "not counting" "from memory" and "guessing" that my estimation of a particular subject line "dominating" BEE-L was in error, when, in fact (or "by any measure" as "allen" says) his guesstimate of "counted on both hands with fingers left over" is sorely incorrect with his own eight messages - under "tens of thousands of hives crashing" subject line - tipping his guesstimate into error. Please note, there are more ways to decide a subject's "dominance" than merely counting the number of messages with the aforementioned subject line. Messages dealing with "tens of thousands of hives crashing" tended to be in-depth and began a number of related threads (all of which were considered in use of the word "dominated"). Using the word "boards" to clarify for readers what format BEE-L messages could be found on the Internet hardly seems like a factual error. Jabs at the use of the most common description of such postings aka "Message Boards" seems like splitting semantic hairs that would render a rose by any other name, smelling less than sweet. Since these two issues seem to be the only ones "allen" uses to besmirch the article printed in January's issue of Bee Culture Magazine, hopefully this response will allow him to focus on why he's projecting his own gap in reportorial accuracy onto others. DeWayne Lumpkin :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:23:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Coumaphos in wax In-Reply-To: <423F92E5.1020209@mts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Peter asked: > >Jerry, was your use of the word "hopefully" give some indication that all >is not well with the manner in which some pesticides are investigated >before being placed on to market? Not necessarily. Large molecules tend to break down into a host of chemicals. Simply stating a basic concept. The 'manner' question is a different issue. My own opinion is that the tests required AND the manner in which some of these tests are conducted leaves much to be desired. We need to move away from the dead bee syndrome toward a more realistic approach. More and more, evidence points toward a diverse array of potential behavioral responses that may be detrimental to colony functioning. Simply stated, label registration has always focused on how many bees are killed and how fast. Certainly, a dead bee doesn't gather nectar, pollinate, etc. But dead bees may stimulate adaptive responses in the colony -- queen speeds up laying, new foragers appear in a shorter period of time. But what if the effect is that the pesticide or its breakdown products affect the bees olfactory sense, memory, ability to perform basic tasks? Does it make any difference to the beekeeper whether the bees are not at the flowers because they died or because they can't 'find'' them or remember what they're supposed to be doing? Will the colony respond in the same way as it does to a loss of the field force? Or, will the physical presence of these non- or partially functional bees prevent the adaptive processes from taking place? Thanks Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:46:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Correction : Another potential beekeeping ban Comments: To: Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you wish to send a letter supporting beekeeping to the Garden City Observer (Michigan) the editor address I gave in my first post will bounce. The one I sent to: Hugh Gallagher Managing Editor, Observer Newspapers Phone: 734-953-2149 EMail: hgallagher@oe.homecomm.net did not bounce back, so I assume it is a good address. I know Dieter Schurer has sent a letter from Switzerland as he sent a Bcc of the letter to me. No, I do not live in or near Garden City, Michigan, but I do think if beekeepers around the world show support of reasonable beekeeping in Garden City, Michigan, we can make a difference for them. I know it was the support of beekeepers from around the world that influenced the City of Aurora to make the law in 2003 defining "safe and reasonable" beekeeping, instead of banning beekeeping, as they initially started to do in late 2002. Tom Patterson Auroral, CO :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:32:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Jackson Co. WV Comments: cc: beefarmgfc@yahoo.com, booksnbees@citynet.net, ALIMBEES@msn.com, geniebee@juno.com, drectenwald@earthlink.com, j.rectenwald@earthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A meeting for all members of the Jackson County West Virginia Beekeepers will be held at the Ronald McDonald Building on the Fairgrounds at Cottageville, WV. Time will be from 11:00am till 1:00pm, April 2nd 2005. Every meeting we're learning something new. Guest beekeepers are invited to attend and maybe if interested becoming a member. We always seem to have a good time. You can too. April 2, 2005 11am - 1pm Ronald McDonald Building Jackson County Junior Fair Grounds Cottageville, WV :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:29:40 -0500 Reply-To: scot@linuxfromscratch.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Bradenton Bees Subject: Re: Honey on bottom board In-Reply-To: <200503211447.j2LE1kH2014446@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chances are like stated before that it is fermented honey. The best way to tell is to stick your nose inside the hive and give a goof sniff of the smell of the hive. Fermentation has rather characteristic smell coupled with the smell of excess carbon dioxide. It can occur if the humidity gets too high and moisture gathers inside the hive, then when the weather begins to warm the moisture is drawn towards the supersaturated honey, and fermentation is allowed to begin when saturation decreases. Yeasts gather on top of the honey comb, the same way yeasts are drawn to the surface of grapes (the white powder often found on grape skins), the honey is usually too "dry" for yeasts to multiply in, but once the saturation levels decrease even a percentage, some of the high sugar tolerant yeasts will start to multiply. This increases CO2 biological activity and warms the hive even more, allowing more moisture to be drawn to the honey. If you live in a hive beetle area as well, this could be characteristic of a larvae population explosion, which although the beetle larvae are damaging in themselves, they cause the above fermentation scenario to begin as well. The last possibility is simply that a comb or few has broken. Scot Mc Pherson Bradenton Fl :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:31:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: roar of disbelief In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For josh jaros and all: Sounds like good reason then to go back to clean sustainable beekeeping with the help of small cell foundation (4.9) and just begin fresh anew. Healthy bees are happy bees then and fun to work and enjoy then, like when I was younger growing up! Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Small Cell Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:10:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: "tens of thousands of hives crashing" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry DeWayne. I guess you didn't get the joke. Many did; many did not. It was subtle. Here's my confession: What happened was, one day I selected and copied a bit of what I considered to be a bit of amusing hyperbole in one of Bob's posts and pasted it into the subject line of an article I posted to the BEE-L mailing list. I wasn't saying that there weren't beekeepers experiencing bad losses, but I was gently teasing Bob about what some of us consider his tendancy to exaggerate, jump to conclusions, and sensationalize things. (We do love and appreciate him and his generous contributions, but sometimes we like to tease him a bit and he pretends not to notice). Some of the regulars got the joke and we kept the subject line going, but, anyone who reads the articles will see that the matters discussed quickly changed to other things, and that the few posts that actually addressed the subject were queries as to where the losses were, seeing as the writers were not observing anything abnormal. And no, there was no roar, unless you want to count the chuckles. There has been quite a spate of articles in the press lately about the huge losses, and our industry has milked them for all they are worth. There are huge problems in beekeeping in the USA, and Canada, but, as I have said, they are mostly economic. We get no sympathy there, but when there is a nasty villain, like a blood-sucking mite, to blame for our woes, then we get lots of understanding and concern from the public and from government, so nobody really makes a big issue if the writers in the popular press want to think that the mite is the big problem. As for the facts, maybe, just maybe, the losses are out of line this year, and maybe they are not. I am sure there are some spots where the losses are heavy; there always are. That's how random distributution works. Anyhow, it just happens that the average *normal* attrition over an entire year for commercial beekeepers is at least 30% of colonies, and, in some areas numbers as high as 50% has been discussed as normal. That was true before mites, and it is true now. Beekeepers just have to split, requeen, catch swarms, and buy replacements to keep numbers up. That's just the way it is and has been in the past. So, 50% losses are not particularly abnormal, although they seem large to a non-beekeeper, and an occasional 100% loss is routine. A 50% or 100% loss of cattle annually, for example, would be a shocker, but for a beekeeper, it is just business as usual. Those who have polluted their hives with pesticides may be an exception, but I have talked to plenty of beekeepers who were smart enough to avoid that trap. I think I explained the rest in a previous post, but if you have any questions, please ask. As for BEE-L or its archives being a message board, well, I don't know what it may appear to be from AOL, but out here on the Internet, BEE-L is and always has been a LISTSERV mailing list, also known simply as a mailing list or an email list. "When e-mail is addressed to a LISTSERV mailing list, it is automatically broadcast to everyone on the list. The result is similar to a newsgroup or forum, except that the messages are transmitted as e-mail and are therefore available only to individuals on the list. " As with most email discussion lists, BEE-L has archives, which provide an exception to the above statement in that they can be accessed by a somewhat clunky and imperfect web interface. Members can attempt to post messages by the web interface, but may experience problems. FWIW. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:00:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: NPR article on NC costshare program In-Reply-To: <20050323013147.55972.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4555809 This is a well-done story (~5 minutes) with good background of beekeeping. The summary on the NPR site is A new North Carolina government program subsidizes people who want to become beekeepers. The initiative is an attempt to address a nationwide bee shortage that threatens the future of American agriculture. NPR's Adam Hochberg reports. _All Things Considered_, March 22. If you're not familiar with the NC program, see http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050128/D87T32L00.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:20:50 -0500 Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Juan_Carlos_Fern=E1ndez_Campos?= Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Juan_Carlos_Fern=E1ndez_Campos?= Subject: few new beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robert, Beekeeping is as old as man in self, so, market, mites, cost and lot of other stuff are not going to stop people from start beekeeping. But breeding and selection could do serious harm to beekeeping, because it is taking down the resistence and tolerance to mites an dso on. When man start selecting bees he always take just a few aspects( for polination, for not to much propolis, for high eggs laying, etc) but nature has selected them for million os aspects during milions of years, so we are just droping down all those years of evolution in a few decades of careless artificial selection. As result, people are afraid of facing risks in beekeeping due to mites, management, and low divulgation of bee culture. jcf. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:13:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Myth or Fact? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Tens of thousands of hives crashing, roar of disbelief, super varroa -- with a rush to respond to the crisis. I talked to a lot of beekeepers at the national meetings. I learned, we have resistant varroa, some of the big operators had a rough year, and the almond acreage increased. Allen said today: "So, 50% losses are not particularly abnormal, although they seem large to a non-beekeeper, and an occasional 100% loss is routine." I did not hear from any beekeeper or researcher convincing arguments for a varroa induced crash. One of the high loss beekeepers cited 5 mites per hive drop -- but he was sure that varroa was the culprit because after he 'treated', the hives began to recover. Maybe the recovery was coincidental with the treatment -- I find 5 mites per hive hard to rationalize as the cause of the problem. I've been chatting a lot of folks. No doubt, it was a rough year. But so far, the only 'hard' evidence that I can find are inspection reports of a couple of situations. I trust the folks doing the inspections. They reported that the 'decimated' hives started their decline months before and many went into the winter in poor shape -- substandard stores and weak populations. I can't even get a number on how many of the commercial beekeepers were reporting heavy losses -- it all seems to be indirect information based on a shortage of bees for almonds -- which in part is due to increased acreage plus what appears to be a more or less 'higher' than usual loss of colonies. Given the numbers of colonies needed, that increased loss spread across all most of the beekeepers doesn't have to be a large increase. So, what we need is some hard data. I'm working on a reporting system for bee losses, whether mites, pesticides, bears. Lots of reasons to get this documented. Stay tuned, we will be launching a site for this in the near future. Jerry (We're beta testing it now) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:14:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Re: Myth or Fact? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050323094002.03d19ec0@selway.umt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 23, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > > So, what we need is some hard data. Wow . . . what a concept. I wish you the best of luck, Jerry. You're right that hard data would help everyone. I noticed that in the NPR article I posted earlier today that the person who was interviewed stated as a fact that losses this past winter had been higher than usual. It would certainly be nice if there was a way to know for sure, and to really get a statistical handle on the problem if it does exist. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:55:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Headlines and Politics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Ok, I just read my Jan/Feb ABF newsletter. Front page banner "ABF Asks for Doubling Federal Bee Research Funding In Response to Massive Bee Die-Off from Varroa Mites". But the article paints a somewhat different picture. In the article itself is the statement: "Speculation is rife as to the actual cause of the deaths." Then the body of the text goes on to ask whether it is the mite, vectored viruses, mite treatment residues, chemicals in beeswax? Reports of colonies collapsing last fall are noted, as were reports that scientists from the federal labs had gone out to CA, but not one word of any conclusions from the feds as to what is going on or how bad the problem really is. There is a comment that: "Estimates have placed the losses at 50%..." but no information as to where these estimates came from, and as I said in my earlier post, I can't find any hard data on this. I do agree with the statement that some beekeepers may have lost 75-80% of their hives -- I met one who said this had happened to him. Ok, apparently the Bush Administration wants to cut $640,000 from the Baton Rouge and Weslaco labs. Not surprising when other federal agencies have been targeted for as much as a 25% reduction in their Total research funding -- in part to pay the war bills. At least this time, the bee labs haven't been singled out -- in fact, the cuts appear to be proportionally less than for many other federal research groups -- which I guess is good news, sort of. During the USDA/ARA Bee Lab overview presentation in Reno, I noted that on a good year, my university/private company research team is funded at a level higher than either of two of the main federal bee labs! So, its no wonder that they are strapped for resources. Keep in mind, we have to find/compete for every nickel of funding, we don't get any money from the state, the feds, or the national beekeeping organizations -- although I do get a few small donations each year from beekeepers and my thankfully from the MT State Organization. Ok, so I agree, its hard to imagine that the federal labs can get much of anything done after they pay salaries, light and heat bills, etc. FYI, we keep to a much leaner staffing level and don't get paid near as well, so we can 'stretch' our dollars a bit more. If I had their salary and overhead bills to pay, we wouldn't get anything done. Now, Danny Weaver in his ABF report says that ABF is also 'suggesting' increasing CSREES Nat Res. Initiative and land grant university bee research money, to augment and accelerate definition of the causes and development of solutions. I'll buy that, although since we're not a land grant school, doubt that we'd ever qualify -- as would be the case for many university-based researchers who might be able to help out. Keep in mind, not all bee, mite, pesticide, or other related work is done at land grant/ag schools. Finally, the article says USDA wants to hire two geneticists, two molecular biologists, and two computational biologists. All necessary for certain lines of research -- but maybe not what you need to hire if the fundamental question is "defining the causes". Don't get me wrong, the Fed Bee labs play an important role, and they are under-funded and under constant attack for closure. And, there are some fine, hard-working scientists in those labs. But in a year of TIGHT money, I'd be cautious of launching a scare campaign to get funding. Ok, at the risk of sounding self-serving, a few comments. What do academic and private researchers talk about over a beer at national meetings? First and foremost, we ask what's real? Second, there's general frustration about not being able to get any signicant funding to look at the problems. -- NSF doesn't like to fund the needed bee studies, because honey bees are any introduced species, and much of the research is applied (they target basic research), -- the presence of the national labs is leading many federal agencies to say -- bee research is already funded better than other endeavors, after all, you've got 5 established labs, so we don't need to fund you, and -- since you are a university, you can do this for free or on a pittance -- after all, students are cheap. And by the way, giving a student a small amount of money, but then expecting them to travel to the opposite side of the U.S. to give a report at a national meeting has a major downside -- the poor kid spends most of his/her research dollars on the trip. The experience is certainly worthwhile, but the research dollars should be separate from the project report trip dollars. Oh well, now that I'm this far down the slippery slope, what would I do? I'd close 2 of the 5 labs, and pump up the overall funding for bee research, and use the recovered and additional funds to open a well-funded, national, competitive research funding program, open to anyone in the U.S. (ARS employee, land grant, academics, small businesses) who can bring solutions, in a hurry, to the table. The requests for proposals would appear at least twice a year, preferably quarterly, with an open solicitation for anyone with a probable Fast Fix. The proposals would be thoroughly peer-reviewed, work plans and budgets required, with timely deliverables. Projects leading nowhere could be axed, projects finding solutions could be quickly pumped up. I can see I've spent too much time working with DARPA, the Defense agency research group that drives high risk, high pay-off research. Just don't borrow their technology transfer models -- its doesn't work well. But, they do get innovation and some major successes (like the Internet and the Stealth bomber). Time to sign off, tried to be an equal opportunity thorn in the side -- actually, I'm hoping to stimulate some more creative options other than simply throwing money. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:19:52 -0500 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: ABF, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry raised some valid points. Not that I agree with them all, but they are certainly worthy of thought. I would like to raise some points that may be equally controversial. These have to do with the role of ABF (or lack thereof) with lobbying or otherwise influencing others in government to do their job. Where is the ABF on the subject of getting some additional kind of formic treatment approved? Or oxalic? Perhaps they are doing something, but they sure haven't told their membership...If they are not doing anything, why not? Are they being influenced to not do anything by those who have something to gain through maintaing the status quo? These acids are not the be all, end all. But they would sure help a very large number of beekeepers and are being successfully used elsewhere in the world. Where is the ABF on getting Tylosin approved? AFAIK, every (I know of no exception) commercial beekeeper now uses Tylosin as a prophylactic treatment. (But there are probably some commercial beekeepers that I don't know who are not using it.) But who knows what the right dosage should be? When it should be applied? Should it be applied in syrup or as a dust? Believe me, there are all kinds of variations being used at present. Or does the ABF not want this to get a high priority because their commercial members 'don't care', as they are using it without permission and don't want a dictate that says 'cannot be used without a prescription.' I don't get it. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:29:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Myth or Fact? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I really don't want to get involved again in this subject but will add a few points. I really do not consider my friends Allen or Jerry in the mainstream of the beekeeping grapevine. Also Telling all your fellow beekeepers (to many commercial beekeepers) your hives died from whatever reason is like sharing you just got a shot of antibiotic from your doctor for a dose of the clap in the circles I travel in! Jerry said: I did not hear from any beekeeper or researcher convincing arguments for a varroa induced crash. When was the last time the bee lab sent teams to California to look at a situation and take samples? Jerry said: -- I find 5 mites per hive hard to rationalize as the cause of the problem. Forget what you think you know about varroa Jerry and ponder the fact that hives did crash this year with just such a low varroa drop. Samples sent by beekeepers to a lab overseas (around the U.S. bee labs )came back showing three bee virus. Kashmire bee virus was the most often found in the PMS smears. One report said their research found a hive can die in three days from Kashmire bee virus. Jerry said: They reported that the 'decimated' hives started their decline months before and many went into the winter in poor shape -- substandard stores and weak populations. same stories I have heard from many BUT not all! Jerry said: I can't even get a number on how many of the commercial beekeepers were reporting heavy losses Are you wishing to help solve the problem or document the problem. Document is a waste of time as the beekeepers involved are looking to the future and not the past. The nice point about varroa is that varroa only lives a week without a host and you can simply drop new bees in and what happened with varroa last season is a memory. Jery said: So, what we need is some hard data. I'm working on a reporting system for bee losses, whether mites, pesticides, bears. Lots of reasons to get this documented. Stay tuned, we will be launching a site for this in the near future. So the solution is in your opinion to document the problem and start a website? I am sorry if you think I am being rough on you but you guys *are* getting the kid gloves treatment here from me. Four letter words are used in many of the beekeeper circles I travel in. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:23:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: lameo cool Subject: Russian queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob Harrison said "A push in cage over emerging brood is recommended. To requeen a full size hive, I recommend the above method in a nuc and then once the queen is established use the nuc to requeen the hive." Bob, please tell us in detail how you use the nuc to requeen the hive. Is this done in one step by removing the old queen with several frames and replacing with the laying Russian queen on the nuc frames or are more steps such as putting newspaper between the Russian nuc and hive to be requeened necessary. Do we need to strip the field bees from the hive to be requeened? Thanks for your advice. Bob Maxwell __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:52:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: "tens of thousands of hives crashing" In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Allen Dick writes: it just happens that the average *normal* attrition over an entire year for commercial beekeepers is at least 30% of colonies, and, in some areas numbers as high as 50% has been discussed as normal. That was true beforemites, and it is true now. Reply: Sorry, I just do not buy that...........I was taught growing up and also seeing for many years that no more then 10% loss on average was considered normal. So question: just when did the rise in losses go to between 30-50% or more? From my memory I believe it started in the 1980s this higher figure, though industry did go thru a bad spell back in the late 1920s - early 40s due to foul broods then, not mites like today (learning to work around/correct the problem). Saying this, right now I have to say that even with our severe drought here in Arizona the past 5 years coupled with mites, things have tappered off and losses seem in the past few years down to only 1-2$ now and the bees are humming along. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Small Cell Beekeeper Tucson, Arizona __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:36:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: WHY are tens of thousands of hives crashing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" A few thoughts. It never occured to me that Andy passed on St. Patrick's Day. I'm sure he'd rather have been drinking green beer. I miss Andy. He sure knew his bees. And he sure kept things lively on BEE-L. Even moreso than they have been in the past few days (months) with all the discussion of tens of thousands of hives crashing. As did not Allen, I had not realized that the discussion had been as "domineering" as some have claimed. Indeed there are 66 hits in the archives since last October, but truthfully I haven't read each one to see how on or off the mark each may have been. The take away message I got from the exchange was that a lot of hives are crashing and no one really knows why. This is nothing new. I was reminded of Andy's treatise on, "S-A-D AND B-A-D BEES". Andy was not always the best written contributor on this list, but Andy had more bee knowledge in the first joint of his pinky finger than many on this list, this author included. Andy wrote S-A-D AND B-A-D BEES based on 35 years of commercial beekeeping experience. It wasn't backed up with controlled studies, it was just what Andy knew to be so. And I wouldn't doubt it. It wasn't until I wrote Andy about SAD/BAD bees that we warmed up to each other. He was amazed that I actually slogged through what he had written, but afterwards we always shared a better rapport. Anyway, SAD/BAD Bees are Stress Accelerated Decline [SAD] and Bee Immune Deficiency [BAD]. One would think that Bee Immune Deficiency would be BID, but that was Andy. "I" was close enough to "A" and BAD worked better than BID, so Andy wrote about SAD and BAD bees and that's the way it was! If one reads Andy's treatise (among other places it will be found at http://honeybeeworld.com/misc/sadandbad.htm ) the main point is that huge losses are not uncommon in beekeeping. Hopefully the years of huge losses can be minimized, but throughout beekeeping history there are years when tens of thousands of hives crash. And the losses are unexplained. There are villians du jour, "Such as Isle of Wight Disease, Afro-hereditary Disease, fall, winter, or spring Collapse or Decline, and Disappearing Disease." Losses happen. Currently there are new skeletons in the closet, including Varroa, chemical build up, systemic pesticides and more. But it seems obvious, at least to me, that there are more culprits being pointed at, but the bottom line is we just don't know what is causing the hives to crash. Bob is convinced it's varroa. All of France is convinced it's imidicloprid. I love Andy's description of PMS as pure "BS"; that's Bee Science for those who didn't know Andy. Again, lots more culprits, more culprits than you can point a finger at, and still no definitive answers. SAD Bees. Stress Accelerated Decline. Moving bees from hither and thither to yon, at a time when bees are in the midst of spring build up and in need of quality protein (which Almond pollen is not), plunking them down in massive monocultures of Almonds along with tens of thousands of other hives. Yup, it's gotta be one of those culprits causing the crashes, it couldn't be that beekeeping practices are simply pushing bees beyond their limits! I do not discount all the popular culprits, but neither can I point a finger at a particular villian and say beyond a shadow of a doubt that is where our problems lie. In truth, I suspect we all know and deny that a good deal of the problems lies with we beekeepers. Are your combs contaminated? Don't dismiss the question, are your combs contaminated? Don't hedge the question by saying, "Well, I only used Apistan and/or Checkmite a few times and I always followed label instructions, so I did what I was told at a time when no one knew any better, so no, my combs aren't contaminated." See, this Bee Science is tricky stuff. If you put a chemical strip in your hive ever, your combs are contaminated! That stresses your bees. Are your combs old? If you ask, "Well how old is old?", shut up! Your combs are old and your bees will do better on fresher comb that hasn't been absorbing nasties that are out there in the environment (not just in strips). Are your bees stressed? Are your attempts to destress your bees stressing your bees? Are there things you can do to destress your bees that will actually destress your bees? What might that be? I really don't know. Perhaps we should be running two classes of bees, those that we'll stress as has become common practice, and those that we'll coddle to make up the tens of thousands of hives that are crashing. Or as Andy put it, "quality pasture and the ability to renew colonies that die for whatever reason." I don't have the answer. Andy did not have the answer. But he did have a lot of insight to a recurring problem in the beekeeping industry. So tonight, rather than trading flames amongst out top contributors, all of whom really do share beers at national conventions, read Andy's SAB/BAD bees. It's required reading. Avoid being MAD beekeepers. Aaron Morris (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:28:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Russian queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob maxwell asks: Bob, please tell us in detail how you use the nuc to requeen the hive. I have tried several methods but the method I am using now I believe is best. You will need to scale down the procedure as I am doing a hundred queens and up queens at a time. I am using deep langstroth boxes for both introducing new queens and mating nucs. My whole queen operation is migratory. Actually my whole operation is on skids including my breeder queens and experimental yards. If you look at page 28 of the 2005 Walter Kelley catalog you will see they have added a four way Langstroth deep mating nuc this year. I build my own but they are identical to the ones Kelley sells. The first I ever saw of the idea was in the book "Rearing Queen Honey Bees copy 1979" by Roger Morse (of whom I have always been a fan) page 55-56-57. I make mine using a quarter inch router blade before assembly and cut the other boards on a table saw. One of my skids will mate 16 queens or prepare 16 Russian queens for introduction into hives. Seven of these skids will prepare a 100 queens for introduction or mating. I made 32 new boxes like on page 28 of Kelley last week and Friday my helper is coming and we are making another eight skids for the queen rearing operation expansion. I am taking pictures for a possible future bee magazine article. If you understand what I am saying so far then the rest is simple. I use a frame of Honey and pollen as one frame of the nuc. The day before my Russian queens arrive I add a frame of emerging brood. When the queens arrive I install the queens in a push in cage on the frame of emerging brood. Once released and laying I judge each queens brood pattern and mark her. I cull the dinks! I believe that poor acceptance comes from caged queens. After a few days of egg laying her pheromones are normal (Dr. Gloria DeHoffman 2002 ). I then make up either splits in single depth langstroth or dequeen hives I want to requeen. The next day I close the entrances and load the 16 queens to a skid (nucs on skids) on my truck and travel to the outyards. I remove a frame of brood and a frame of honey/pollen for the next round and install my two frame nuc as needed. > Do we need to strip the field bees from the hive to be requeened? I don't but if doing a few queens not a bad idea. Making a nuc with young bees is easy and works good. Put the brood you want to use above a queen excluder and let the young bees come up and then make your nuc. if you have got further questions I will be on line late tomorrow but will be gone into Kansas tomorrow getting fructose off a tanker truck. Hope I have helped! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 00:39:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Myth or Fact? In-Reply-To: <002401c52fe7$1737a240$43bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, is it myth or fact that lots of mails were placed on Bee-L about the truth or spin regarding colony losses in certain locations in the US. Seems to me that it may be possible to show support for each opinion. Whether the positions are perceived as being credible - each to his/her own. But what I would like to know is: What is the final objective of this thread as it is running at present? It reminds me of what has happened in France 9my sphere of experience) regarding the saga of the Imidaclopride/ Fipronil molecules and their effects on Honey bee colonies. Big problems with losses were perceived/ observed, reported, denied. Culprit needed. Depending on point of view, position in the industries involved, geographical location and personal experiences, the classic "I know better, yes, no, not true, tis, not so" situation evolved and spread as fast a cold in a Doctor's waiting room. For those with dead, dying colonies - they were treated as trueful reporters of facts, whilst at the same time equally as un-educated, poor substandard bee-havers. Depended on who was doing the quizzing. Thousands, Hundreds of thousands of colonies over time were reported to be suffering from insidious pesticide contamination, brought on by unheard of low levels of contamination. Many losses were no doubt caused by poor beekeeping, chronic infestation etc. and blamed on the sitting target molecule. Much cash from all sides of the equation tried to prove their point. Governments became involved, Industrial giants cursed, protesting individuals labeled as anarchic eco- freaks with separate agendas. They were and still are interesting times. The result is, as it stands at present - that nobody has a definitive answer. Colonies died. Businesses went under. Beekeepers and associations divided and created deeper divisions where they already existed. Academics appear to have the opinion that grass root beekeepers are to be untrusted. Grass root beekeepers consider researchers as bought individuals indirectly working for agro-giants. Certain company names have become modern day swear words, to be uttered with total contempt. Oh, yes, it is possible to go on and on and on......... My conclusion It is far too easy to be derailed into Red herring situations, direct ones capacities into damaging senerios and reap long term distrust. Why? Because there is a want to prove a point! Details and data, with a pinch of stats. It makes one great cookie. I lost out in France and moved. I felt that I was of a limited few who really wanted the truth to come out regarding the losses in France. Was unable to galvanize the opponents - and received the consequences from both. Poor bees! Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:03:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: Re: WHY are tens of thousands of hives crashing? In-Reply-To: <63D883CB0A1B204EB053673DD882CB530B3C7147@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Bob is convinced it's varroa. All of France is > convinced it's imidicloprid. No. I am afraid it is not that simple and it is an over simlification of investigations in Europe. That is not what I can read from France. Questions in French or in English are the very same, just language differs. Multifactorial is the fashion word, and people try to evaluate each factor's weight and how they influence each other. Hervé __________________________________________________________________ Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:10:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: Myth or Fact? In-Reply-To: <42426098.6050601@mts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Eric Mussen, the UC Davis apiculturist, said that last year he was Mr. Doomandgloom because he predicted losses for this year. What he is seeing in California is heavy loss. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:33:33 -0500 Reply-To: scot@linuxfromscratch.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: Bradenton Bees Subject: Russian Bees, another mistake?? Comments: To: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com, ApiarianBreedersGuild@yahoogroups.com, Norlandbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am copying this because I think its an interesting point of view and I am interested in how many of you will respond to this perspective. I appologize for the intense crossposting to all the bee forums, but I believe this involves each of other the groups' focus. Scot Mc Pherson -----Original Message----- From: Djubaya [mailto:DJUBAYA@COMCAST.NET] Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 10:22 AM To: beekeeping@yahoogroups.com Subject: [beekeeping] Russian queens in California The Russian dilemma. This is a letter written recently to the Sonoma County (California) Bee keeping group by one of its members. It is a very informative look at the consequences of past (and potentially future) mistakes by bee keepers with the best of intentions... It changed the mind of many folks who were ordering Russian Queens. Djubaya ******************************************** In view of all the talk we hear about queens this season, I feel compelled to add my two cents worth of opinion. And here it is up front: Do NOT bring Russian queens to California! If we do, we might all end up paying for this mistake in the years to come. Our area of the West Coast is one of the few places on this planet that enjoys a Mediterranean climate. Most of the bees we have here are of Italian descent (Apis mellifera ligustica). These bees are very well adapted to our climate, to the rhythm of our seasons, to our flora. Over countless centuries, they have evolved in similar conditions before being introduced here, 150 years ago. Since then, these bees have been instrumental in turning California into one of the world's most famous regions for agriculture and beekeeping. Russian queens, on the contrary, have evolved in Eastern Siberia. The conditions that placed constraints on their evolution and on their natural selection in that part of the world are almost at the other extreme of those that we have here. The only reason Russian bees were introduced in this country was in an attempt to bring in bees that possibly possessed some degree of tolerance or resistance to varroa mites. But by now, some of our local bees have developed this capacity too! And this is good. Also, most of our bees that had no natural resistance to the mites were decimated during the 1990's. Do you remember all the hype about the "Yugo" queens, a few years ago? This is the same phenomenon we are seeing today with the Russian bees. And what a failure those "Yugo" bees were in the end! At this point, I must ask a series of questions and raise a red flag: What will be the outcome of the cross between Russian bees, which are adapted to cold regions, and Africanized bees, when they meet in California? Isn't this the perfect recipe to extend the domain of Africanized bees to the entire North American continent? Can you imagine the consequences of having Africanized bees all over the U.S. and Canada? Did the scientists who went looking for Russian bees anticipate this scenario? If they did, what was their plan to prevent it from happening? Or did they even care if it happened? Africanized Honey Bees are already the result of a similar experiment that went out of control: Nearly fifty years ago, a well meaning Brazilian scientist imported African bees to South America. They escaped from his custody, interbred with the gentle European bees, and then spread far and fast to reach Texas, Arizona and California a few years ago. Do we want to compound the mishap? Do we want to draw the so-called "killer bees" further North? With all the respect that is due to the scientists for their good work, they sometimes err. The importation of Russian bees might be one of these mistakes. I can understand that beekeepers located in areas that endure long and harsh winters are interested in having Russian queens, but I cannot imagine that it would make any sense to have these bees here, in California! Carrying colonies through cold winters is not a difficulty we have to face in our climate. Hives are moved to and from California by the thousands for pollination contracts. Unfortunately, it is only a matter of time before Russian and African bee genes mix. Then, what? According to numerous reports, Russian bees are so different from our Italians that the methods of managing beehives have to be adjusted or modified for them. Russian bees are descended from the German black bee, Apis mellifera mellifera, which is notorious for its aggressive behavior, its promptitude at issuing swarms, and its nervousness on the frames. It takes as many as ten days for a Russian queen to be accepted by a hive. Do we really want to introduce these traits into our local bee gene pool? After all, the ONLY reason that may make Russian queens desirable is their supposed resistance to mites. But tests have shown that this resistance is highly variable among Russian queens, and that it is lost very quickly in subsequent generations. Again, let's not forget that some of our local bees have developed tolerance or resistance to varroa mites. Let's select and propagate these! All we need to do is to open our eyes, look at our hives, and at the feral colonies that survive without treatment. Of course, if you treat your hives with synthetic compounds, you cannot see which ones would be naturally resistant, and which ones would be failing. This is because you are indiscriminately sustaining them with artificial means. until the treatment becomes ineffective. When this happens, many hives collapse and huge losses are experienced by beekeepers, which is exactly what we see happening this year. The queens that are in our hives are not always the sources of the problems we experience in the apiaries. Actually, they seldom are. And other queens are seldom the solutions to these problems. Most of the time, it is our beekeeping practices that are the culprit. Will we ever be willing to recognize this? Anytime we honestly admit we have made a mistake in our hive management, we become better beekeepers. If we then correct the mistake, our bees become stronger. What we need is a change in our attitude, and improvements in our hive management practices, not Russian queens. "The grass is always greener on the other side of the hill". So, we import bees from abroad, thinking that these foreign queens are better than the ones we have right here. And yet. many of our local girls are doing a fine job! Unfortunately, we not only import bees, but we also import foreign pests and diseases. The list of these is already too long: Chalkbrood, tracheal and varroa mites, Small Hive Beetle and Africanized bees. All of them introduced in the U.S. during the last three or four decades. Now Tropilaelaps Clareae and many more are knocking at our door. Are we so scared of the varroa mite that we are willing to introduce queens that are completely foreign to our area, to our continent? Let's appreciate our good Italian or Carniolan queens for all their beneficial traits. Let's not succumb to the unsubstantiated hype and to the appeal of ads that promote Russian queens. Let's not blame our local bees for our own mistakes, shortcomings, incompetence or inability to see the real causes of our problems. Instead, let's become better beekeepers. Let's treat our local bees with respect, understanding, attention, good hive management practices, and not with chemical substances! And let's leave the Russian bees where they are. Hopefully, it is not too late. Serge Labesque ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Has someone you know been affected by illness or disease? Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts! http://us.click.yahoo.com/RzSHvD/UOnJAA/79vVAA/MwgrlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beekeeping/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: beekeeping-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:57:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy E Cox Subject: Re: Myth or Fact? In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.1.20050324080751.02832e80@pop.lmi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mea, What did he say would be the culprit for the losses he predicted? Kathy Cox -----Original Message----- From: Mea McNeil To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Sent: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:10:31 -0800 Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Myth or Fact? Eric Mussen, the UC Davis apiculturist, said that last year he was Mr. Doomandgloom because he predicted losses for this year. What he is seeing in California is heavy loss. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:23:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Myth or Fact?- Personal view In-Reply-To: <42426098.6050601@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Is it myth or fact "the truth or spin regarding colony losses in certain locations in the US"? I believe it is a fact. Beekeepers are loosing bees for mites more than they would have expected. This fact could be overplayed by reporters, but the story is true. This year beekeepers have reported more than usual colony kill. Mite resistance to Apistan " Maverick", Coumaphos "Coral", and Amitraz "Amitraz" have been reported. Effects on Almond pollination has also been reported. Statistics supports the colony decline from 4.6 Mil in early 1980's to 2.8 Mil in 2004 in the USA. You can put several reasons to explain why and how, but all will come to the same conclusion "a dead colony is dead!!!!!!". In fact if you follow the literature, Coumaphos resistant mites were found in Maine and Florida in fall 2001, then in NJ in spring 2002. What happened this spring (2005) is expected. These early reports about resistance have been largely ignored or not taken seriously. Resistance have continued to spread around because of the continuation of the reliance on the same miticides and the interstate movement of bees. It seems clear that we are witnessing a failing system for pest control. A similar situation occurred in the 1960's and 1970's to farmers and the environment. (Read Silent Spring by Rachel Carson). This pattern for crop protection is well known. In the case of honey bees, after exploitation phase of using what ever under the sun to save the bees, the crisis phase follows. More applications needed for effective control. Mites become tolerant to pesticides. Another pesticide is needed. Then, the system move into the next phase "Disaster phase". In the disaster phase the cost of production increases due to replacing dead colonies and residues can be found everywhere. Welcome to the disaster phase "The collapse of the control system". Currently, we are experiencing this phase. Where to go? It is interesting to see beekeepers' response. They have taken the issue of mite control in their hand. It seems that it is a personal fight between beekeepers vs mites. It is understandable. We hear that beekeepers have started to resort to the use of formic acid, oxalic acid, thymol and Apilife Var. Now, they are accepting control measures that are less optimal in comparison to hard core chemicals. This change of heart is a remarkable change in the beekeeping management system. This is the new phase "The integrated control phase". Currently, beekeepers are focusing again on one aspect of IPM that is the use of soft chemicals to save the bees. Unless we learn from the mistakes of others and adopt sound pest management concepts, the control system will almost certainly fail. Pesticides are needed and consideration of use of alternatives is as important for bee protection. What do beekeepers need to do? They need to focus on a systems approach and use multitactics to control pests. Every spring I look forward to hear more of the same news. What a way to start the spring season! medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:03:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Myth or fact? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>>>>>>>>>>" >bee and Amitraz "Amitraz" have been reported<<<<<<<<<<< I thought that Amitraz was illegal. Is it used in Canada? Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:44:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Myth or Fact?- Personal view Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-49297CB9 > What do beekeepers need to do? They need to >focus on a systems approach and use multitactics to control pests. >medhat If you were in the boat, what would your "systems approach" be, and what "multitactics" would you use? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.0 - Release Date: 3/21/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:18:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Myth or fact? In-Reply-To: <001401c530ac$94979f40$b3e5fc40@drivec> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Mr. Marron Said: I thought that Amitraz was illegal. Is it used in Canada? Answer: No, Amitraz is not used in Canada. My article was a general one. I am not pointing any fingers where and how? medhat :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:15:59 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Russian queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I believe that poor acceptance comes from caged queens. After a few days of > egg laying her pheromones are normal (Dr. Gloria DeHoffman 2002 ). Bob, can you give us the full reference for this. Hope you can find time in amongst the splitting. Trevor Weatherhead ASUTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:23:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: Myth or Fact? In-Reply-To: <8C6FEBA78D67442-BFC-32596@mblk-r32.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >What did he say would be the culprit for the losses he predicted? > >Kathy Cox Resistant varroa mites. (With the understanding that it's the last straw, since many colonies have some degree of nosema or whatever that they can support without the added stress.) He is looking to ApiVar to be approved in California. Mea :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:36:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Russian Bees, another mistake?? Scot, I didn't find the article very well thought out, but since you asked for opinions, here are a few. "Our area of the West Coast is one of the few places on this planet that enjoys a Mediterranean climate. Most of the bees we have here are of Italian descent (Apis mellifera ligustica). These bees are very well adapted to our climate, to the rhythm of our seasons, to our flora. Over countless centuries, they have evolved in similar conditions before being introduced here, 150 years ago. Since then, these bees have been instrumental in turning California into one of the world's most famous regions for agriculture and beekeeping." Well, that's just wrong. It was the German Black bee, Apis m. m. that was brought out here 150 years ago, and that factual error destroys the foundation Serge builds his argument on. And back when we had lots of ferral swarms, they were more likely than not to be German than Italian any way. "Russian queens, on the contrary, have evolved in Eastern Siberia. The conditions that placed constraints on their evolution and on their natural selection in that part of the world are almost at the other extreme of those that we have here." So? The same applies to me, since I'm of British extraction and fair skinned. I just wear a hat, and I'm doing fine, just like the Russian hives I have. "At this point, I must ask a series of questions and raise a red flag: What will be the outcome of the cross between Russian bees, which are adapted to cold regions, and Africanized bees, when they meet in California?" I imagine the same as what happened with the ferral black bees and the AHB in Southern California and other places. They seem to want to sort out back into "pure" strains due to mating stratigies, with some areas going AHB and others not. "Isn't this the perfect recipe to extend the domain of Africanized bees to the entire North American continent?" No, genetics don't work that way. If you breed a husky with a chihuahua you don't necessarily get a big naked dog that stands the cold well. "Can you imagine the consequences of having Africanized bees all over the U.S. and Canada? Did the scientists who went looking for Russian bees anticipate this scenario? If they did, what was their plan to prevent it from happening? Or did they even care if it happened?" You need to be careful there. You are making many assumptions, some of which are demonstrably false, and based on the line of reasoning that proceeds from these assumptions you insinuate illogical and irresponsible thinking on the part of these scientists. "Africanized Honey Bees are already the result of a similar experiment that went out of control: Nearly fifty years ago, a well meaning Brazilian scientist imported African bees to South America. They escaped from his custody, interbred with the gentle European bees, and then spread far and fast to reach Texas, Arizona and California a few years ago. Do we want to compound the mishap? Do we want to draw the so-called "killer bees" further North?" Having kept "killer bees" for 8 years in the Richtersvelt district of South Africa, where they are the only native kind of honey bee, I can tell you that they do just fine in cold areas, and I'm sure you all will be making aquaintance with them soon, especially if you select local bees for mite resistance. "With all the respect that is due to the scientists for their good work, they sometimes err. The importation of Russian bees might be one of these mistakes." It could be, but number one they are already here, and number two, you'll have to give better reasons than you have for stopping the importations of Russian bees. "I can understand that beekeepers located in areas that endure long and harsh winters are interested in having Russian queens, but I cannot imagine that it would make any sense to have these bees here, in California! Carrying colonies through cold winters is not a difficulty we have to face in our climate." What if they do better? That's a good reason. "According to numerous reports, Russian bees are so different from our Italians that the methods of managing beehives have to be adjusted or modified for them. Russian bees are descended from the German black bee, Apis mellifera mellifera, which is notorious for its aggressive behavior, its promptitude at issuing swarms, and its nervousness on the frames. It takes as many as ten days for a Russian queen to be accepted by a hive. Do we really want to introduce these traits into our local bee gene pool?" I thought the Russians were A. m. carnica? But even so, with Eurasia one continent, how do you figure which is descended from which? And again you are forgetting that for years the German black bee has been the basic West Coast ferral bee, and the first commercial bee. "Again, let's not forget that some of our local bees have developed tolerance or resistance to varroa mites. Let's select and propagate these! All we need to do is to open our eyes, look at our hives, and at the feral colonies that survive without treatment." If you want a sure fire way to establish "killer bees" in the Mediterrainian areas of the West Coast, you just described it. Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:27:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Russian Bees, another mistake?? In-Reply-To: <200503251436.j2PEX1dm016381@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Its a done deal.I dont know any of the larger beekeepers(and I know a few)who havent already been 'playing'with Russian stock.For better or for worse they are mixing in with existing stock everywhere(mine raised millions of drones).While I didnt care much for the ones I had(dont really like dark,conservative bees)they have crossed up nicely with the Italian/Carn mix I have.In the long run there will only be survivor bees anyway,so wheres the problem? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:39:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bees and Baseball!? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bees in the news at: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/3489610 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:06:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Russian Bees, another mistake?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To the List: Tim Vaughn has brought out some vary valid points in his response to an earlier post in this thread. I suggest that one takes Mr. Vaughn’s views a few steps further and look at what has happened in Argentina and the south of the Equator side of South America where the Africanized honey bee (AHB) has tried very hard to become the dominant honey bee in that neck of the woods. The result has been that AHB is ubiquitous in tropical and semitropical environs, a more temperate zone where European honey bees (EHB) and AHB are intermingled and coexist, and last where the AFB does not exist except in intermittent instances resulting from importation with the help of mankind and the imported EHB is “queen of the hill”. The Russian honey bee is an EHB and although it was found in a colder climate than most places of the lower 48 mitochondrial polymerase chain reaction-DNA (PCR-DNA) testing confirms its origin as largely European and is a potpourri of many subspecies of Apis mellifera. AHB, Apis mellifera scutellata is a horse of a different environment, a semi-tropical/sub- Sahara Africa that evolved in warm arid areas of east Africa (ABJ, July 2002, p. 482). EHB and AHB are of two different ecotypes. Within a few days the April issue of the American Bee Journal will arrive with Part I of an article that I have penned. I caution all who may jump at a conclusion such as that given by the earlier post in this thread. Part II of the article should appear in the May issue will deal specifically with the future of AHB in North America. I cannot let any more cats out of the bag at this time other than to suggest that you read both articles before deciding validity of the thesis. Respectfully, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC Home of www.sourwoodhoney.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:51:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Barnett Subject: Re: Myth or fact? In-Reply-To: <001401c530ac$94979f40$b3e5fc40@drivec> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 24, 2005, at 2:03 PM, Dick Marron wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> " >> bee and Amitraz "Amitraz" have been reported<<<<<<<<<<< > > I thought that Amitraz was illegal. Greetings! Having kept bees since 1984 at the hobby level, I have passed through the beginning of both tracheal and varroal invasion, and their early treatment consequences. Go to the following website: http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/frame93.htm This index lists Dr. Malcomb T. Sanford's University of Florida's Apis archives over the span of 1982 to his retirement by monthly content; look at 1993, and in January, he reports Section three approval (for general usage) for Miticure, the active ingredient Amitraz 10% in plastic 90%. This was heralded as the first backup to Apistan, e.g., fluvalinate. In October of 1993, Hoerschel-Roussel Agri Vet Com (HRAVC) withdrew the product from the market due to an undefined problem that they could not explain. There was much concern over this, and somewhat widespread use of un-approved use of an uncut strip of the same product designed for placement about the necks of cattle to kill ticks, but not labeled for use with bees. A rumor said the trouble was a large beekeeper in Florida sued HRAVC claiming that Amitraz killed a huge number of his colonies, and won the suit. Supposedly factual information came to me that this indeed was the case, and the economic hazard therein to HRAVC immediately led them to simply withdraw the product from market. I recall that Dr. Sanford somewhere in the aftermath, on the website, stated that the Miticure product was still legal, but just unavailable. I could not actually locate this item this morning however. I personally erred in using Miticure in that on finding my breeder queen's 4 frame nuc quite heavily infested with varroa, placed in it TWO strips (equivalent to FIVE strips in a brood box); the result? Every bee in the nuc dead the next morning. Remember, follow the directions! Robert Barnett Birmingham, AL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:02:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: contact information for Jan Aeerts, east TX Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed HI, Can anyone send me contact information (phone, e-mail) for Jan Aeerts in East Texas? He used to advertise sale of candles and candle supplies, also was the U.S. distributor for the Belgium Bee Scan system. Thanks Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:37:46 +0100 Reply-To: peter.vanhevel@pandora.be Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Vanhevel Organization: Zonder! Subject: FW: [BEE-L] contact information for Jan Aeerts, east TX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _____ Van: Marc Struye, Lowland Electronics bvba [mailto:lowland.electronics@pandora.be] Verzonden: zaterdag 26 maart 2005 19:45 Aan: peter.vanhevel@pandora.be Onderwerp: Re: [BEE-L] contact information for Jan Aeerts, east TX Sir, The new address of Mr. Aerts is: Bee Services Jan Aerts 8212 CR 272 Terrell, TX 75160 Ph/Fax: 972-524-4076 Mobile: 972-270-0683 email: aerts@airmail.net Greetings, Ing. Marc Struye Lowland Electronics bvba Langekoestalstraat 2 B-8432 Leffinge Belgium tel.: + 32 59 27 93 92 fax.: + 32 59 27 97 93 email: lowland.electronics@pandora.be URL: http://users.pandora.be/lowland _____ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Vanhevel" < peter.vanhevel@pandora.be> To: < lowland.electronics@pandora.be> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 5:58 PM Subject: FW: [BEE-L] contact information for Jan Aeerts, east TX > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu] Namens > Jerry Bromenshenk > Verzonden: zaterdag 26 maart 2005 0:03 > Aan: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Onderwerp: [BEE-L] contact information for Jan Aeerts, east TX > > HI, > > Can anyone send me contact information (phone, e-mail) for Jan Aeerts in > East Texas? He used to advertise sale of candles and candle supplies, also > was the U.S. distributor for the Belgium Bee Scan system. > > Thanks > > Jerry > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:07:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Russian Bees, another mistake?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot said: I am copying this because I think its an interesting point of view and I am interested in how many of you will respond to this perspective. Very missinformed position. The most missinformed position I have seen penned on the subject. Almost like the person just learned the Russian bee is headed for California. The Russian hybrid was in California this year in record numbers. I would guess over 200,000 hives in California this year were headed by Russian hybrid queens but only a guess based on the several large beekeepers which run Russians and pollinate almonds. The poster said: The Russian dilemma. The missinformed dilemma. Each is entitled to his/her own opinion which is the way a free society works but when the opinion is based on simply not taking the time to explore the issue before posting the people which do understand the issue will laugh. Even at times like myself now just let the post slip by. I did chuckle when the poster hammered Tom Rinderer over the "Yugo" bee! The "Yugo" bee is certainly not the varroa tolerant bee the Russian is but without the failure of the "Yugo" Tom might not have kept up the hunt for the varroa tolerant bee. If you analize the fear of the poster about the disaster in California from the Russian bee you have to ask yourself has the introduction of the "Yugo" bee into California years ago caused a similar disaster? Nope! The road to success in most endeavors is paved with failures! Every once in awhile after a beekeeping talk I see a person waiting quietly to talk with me. Letting the others go first. Then He/she shares a different opinion than mine. If only a difference of opinion not a big deal but if the persons veiwpoint comes from not understanding the issue I will take the neccessary time to sit down and explain the issue. Most people when they see the whole picture they understand. The Russian import was at first looked on by myself as maybe a waste of time and money. The "Yugo" import did not help build my confidence in the project. Still I can not see how a beekeeper could not understand the reasons why we did the import. Australian import: In the May issue of the American Bee Journal (2005) you will find part two of the my Australian import story. I honestly believe when beekeepers read about the way imports are done in and out of Australia and the possibility of importing through the Australian queen breeders queens from all over the world ( Yes its true!) you will understand why the lone beekeeper (wishes to remain unknown) sent his lawyer to Washington to get the import done. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:03:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Russian queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Trevor & All, Sorry for the late reply. Been out of town. I said: > I believe that poor acceptance comes from caged queens. After a few days of > egg laying her pheromones are normal (Dr. Gloria DeHoffman 2002 ). Trevor asks: Bob, can you give us the full reference for this. The Arizona bee lab Dr. Hoffman heads has been doing queen pheromone research with their mass spec machine. Found almost no pheromone level in a caged queen received through the mail. They found after released and egg laying the pheromone level returned to the normal level. Dr. Hoffman saw the low pheromone level of caged queens as a possible reason for poor queen introduction. I agree! She also showed slides of different spikes on the mass spec from different races of bees. AHB & EHB are different. Different spikes were talked about (and some shown) between races of bees such as Italians, Carniolans and Russians. She said the spike of the Russian was different when I questioned her. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 07:55:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: johnnynkristin Subject: Australian Queens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I am interested in more information about the Australian bees imported to the U.S.A. I own a small beekeeping operation here in Northern Arizona. Does anyone have any information? Johnny Cox Northern Arizona beekeeper :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:01:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Australian queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have received quite a few emails requesting information on how to get a couple pure Australian queens or a pure Australian breeder queen. The add in the February ABJ by Australian Queen Bee Exporters offers production queens but you need to order 500. No offer of breeder queens. aqbe@bigpond.com.au We have got four lines of Australian queens. An instrumentally inseminated (II) queen could be easily produced of several combinations but pure open mated production queens are not an option (at this time) unless people would want a hybrid. Drones from these queens would be pure Austrailan or pure imported from England Buckfast (by way of Australia). We have got both. Anyway I am not in the business of selling queens but Dann Purvis is and we are sharing pure Australian queens with Dann. He will get the same four lines we have got to keep pure for us with II. The lines: Two Australian lines , A pure Buckfast line and a pure Italian line imported directly from Italy (by way of Australia). The pure buckfast & Italian were brought into Australia through the import service I describe in part two of my Australian import article in the May ABJ. I think first beekeepers need to see the performance of the Australian bees & queens and the way they handle varroa & tracheal mites. A follow-up article on the Australian bees is planned for fall & spring of 2006. If you want a pure II breeder queen after the busy season I believe (although Dann and I have not discussed the issue yet) Purvis Brothers would raise an inseminate the above combination you desire. Dann will be getting the above queens as soon as we get Purvis Brothers queens to exchange with.(April). He will then need to introduce and get mature drones to graft with. I would guess June as an early date. Hope Dann is OK with the above. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 09:52:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: "tens of thousands of hives crashing" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There are huge problems in beekeeping in the USA, and Canada, > but, as I have said, they are mostly economic... To extend this thought, I should point out that, as far as I know, few beekeepers have sold much of last year's honey. Prices and domestic bulk honey sales volume dropped precipitously in late sumer/early fall, and both buyers and sellers held back to see what happened. Beekeepers' warehouses are full, and, as a result, many bank accounts are empty. Returns on honey in the USA have been insufficient over the past decade or more to sustain the industry, let alone grow it. Risks have increased, too, reducing the attractiveness of the business, and the current younger generations are less interested in hard, dirty work, making recruiting labour and replacement beekeepers more difficult. As Medhat points out, we have seen a decline in the numbers of US hives and beekeepers over a long timespan now. Would we be where we are now if the price of honey had not been in decline relative to purchasing power over that time? I doubt it. Mites are a drag, but mites can be managed if the incentive is high and sufficient money is available. Some are managing just fine. I talked to quite a number of this latter group at the US meetings, but they were quiet and careful not to crow about their good fortune. This brings me to the point. It is hard to get a handle on what is really happening by looking at an average, or even exceptional anecdotes. A lot of things are happening at once. It would be nice to be able to talk about the average beekeeper, and many do, since some numbers are available for the average, but without a clear idea of the shape of the distribution around that mean and the deviation, we remain in the dark. It is entirely possible for the 'average' to be quite comfortable while 25% or even 50% find themselves in dire straits. Some beekeepers are doing quite well, while others are not, and some may be eating up their equity, while others are adding to their savings. Interestingly, in countries where the price of honey is attractive compared to the local wage, even countries which have a severe or even worse beekeeping conditions and pests than the US, beekeeping is thriving to the point of driving world honey prices into the ground. Thus, I can only conclude that the problem in the US, and increasingly in Canada is that risk/reward and price/cost here is too marginal, resulting in inability of most beekeepers to replace and grow, and even more importantly, respond to emergencies. In other words, if the truth be told, beekeeping is unsustainable in much of the North American continent at current prices. That brings us to the topic. I, too heard stories at the US meetings and elsewhere about big losses. They *seemed* to be associated with beekeepers seeing mites, but I know that many never really looked before; many beekeepers just treated and trusted, but are now looking all the time -- for the first time. I also have heard stories about what beekeepers have been putting into their hives and the quantities of the chemicals and oils that have been applied in the past. As another writer suggested, there are anecdotes about losses, but no real numbers, and that brings me to this... Having been around a while, I am finding that this is like deja vue all over again (and again). I seem to recall having heard the same before, whenever honey prices were high and beekeepers robbed their hives too close, and then the price of honey crashed and beekeepers were unable to feed sufficiently, or on time. When margins are slim, it is hard for a beekeeper to resist taking as much honey as possible. This results in disturbances of the brood chamber in some cases, and also can leave hives starving until feed arrives, or if expected flows do not materialize. As I have reported before, both brood chamber disturbance late in the season and even near starvation, or starvation for a few days can result in colony damage that is not immediately apparent, but which has effects that linger for many months, and can result in high winter loss, even if the bees are later fed up to weight, a loss that is hard to explain unless the history is known. Anyhow, it would be nice to have some real numbers on this. I hear things like 50% of the hives in California, etc. I know lots can believe this sort of thing, but, like Thomas, I need proof. "50%" sounds 'way to much like a statistic made up on the spot. I'd like to have done a better job of this article, but I've gotta go. The kids are coming over soon for our Easter dinner . Best of this season to all. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Not up-to-date, since I was on the road all last week :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:34:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Australian queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have received quite a few emails requesting information on how to > get a couple pure Australian queens or a pure Australian breeder > queen. A reminder here that Australia is a huge country, with a wide variety of bees and beekeepers. We've had Australian imports here in Canada for many years. Some beekeepers love them, and others hate them. Of course they are not the same from supplier to supplier or even from year to year, so, just as in the USA or Canada, it pays to know who the supplier is or have an importer who does. I personally have had good luck most years with the thousands of Australian packages we have purchesed over the years from a number of suppliers, and always found they supplied full measure of bees. (unlike a NZ supplier who always seemed to ship them 10% light). I followed some Aus queens I bought a decade and more ago for a few years by marking their hives. They wintered well and were often top producers. Most Aus queens I have bought have been yellow, but reasonaby conservative in fall and matched well to our Northern climate, and actually, I did buy an Australian carniolan breeder once, from a US beekeeper. (I think it is safe to say this so many years later). My main complaint is that most Aus stock I have had has been very chalkbrood susceptible. A researcher looking through the hives at one time counted 30% (no that is not a typo) CB *average* in the sealed brood of a whole yard of Aus packages. Nonetheless, they built up and did well later, but they missed being good enough for pollination that spring. Also, remember that Aus claims to have no AFB, tracheal mites or varroa, so the bees are not so challenged. As for hygienic traits, I have no knowledge of how they stack up, so think if you have been working towards HYG. Trevor is on this list, and is in the heart of the action down there, so maybe he can give us some tips and some URLs. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:25:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: "tens of thousands of hives crashing" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit warehouses are full, and, as a result, many bank accounts are empty. I have got two friends (one over 400 drums and another around 150 drums) which are still waiting for honey to go to 1.75 a pound before selling. They decided to check prices two weeks ago and were quoted low prices as market examples but none of the full page of buyers were buying honey. Same old story. You can always call your honey packer for an industry price quote but they always seem stocked up with honey from a source they would rather not name. The beekeepers asked me if those buyers had stocked up when honey was 1.50 a pound. I don't think so! Allen said: In other words, if the truth be told, beekeeping is unsustainable in much of the North American continent at current prices. I agree unless you are in a niche market ,are migratory with many pollination contracts or sell directly to stores. Honey in the drums alone is not a good place to be! Although the market has not hit bottom yet as many buyers of smaller drum amounts are looking for honey and willing to pay a higher price. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:54:54 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Australian queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Also, remember that Aus claims to have no AFB, tracheal mites or varroa, > so > the bees are not so challenged. Australia does have AFB and never claimed not to have it. We have tested current AFB for antibiotic resistance and found none. In Australia, except for Tasmania, antibiotics are not registered to treat AFB. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:43:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Russian queens Trevor asked & Bob replied: "The Arizona bee lab Dr. Hoffman heads ..... She also showed slides of different spikes on the mass spec from different races of bees. AHB & EHB are different. Different spikes were talked about (and some shown) between races of bees such as Italians, Carniolans and Russians." I am adding: Go to http://www.trainingway.com/signon/autosignon.asp?aid=99- guest-01&apw=bees to find both text the slides on most of this except the caged queen, and Dr. Grandi-Hoffman's voice in lecture on Volatile Compounds Bee races and Varroa; and, there is lots and lots more! Easter Cheers, Chuck Norton :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:29:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Ruzicka Subject: Russian Queens and Nuk Introduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Whenever I have had to replace a bad or a lost queen in a hive I have done so using an entire nuk including the queen. Firstly, these queens are already laying and you can evaluate how “good” the replacement queen is. Secondly, the bigger the nuk - the better. Thirdly, put the old colony into the lower box and put the nuk on top. Fill the extra space with a few honey frames and the rest empty frames. Fourthly, when joining the two boxes, rest the top box partially on the bottom box and spray a one second blast of JOHNSON GLADE DEODORANT (fragrance free) between the two boxes. This eliminates the pheromones and makes joining the colonies much easier – there is no need for newspaper. This works well. Bill Ruzicka Bill's Honey Farm - Home of MiteGone: The Formic Acid Evaporator Pad. Kelowna, British Columbia, CANADA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 03:42:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Russian queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck Norton wrote: --- quote --- ... http://www.trainingway.com/signon/autosignon.asp?aid=99-guest-01&apw=bees to find both text (and) the slides on most of this... --- end quote --- The URL is long enough that it breaks over two lines. Try http://tinyurl.com/3velz to get to the same page. The site requires a log-on, but thse URLs log in automatically as 'guest'. You'll need a Flash enabled browser. Good tip, Chuck. Anybody else have some good beekeeping-related URLs? Send them in, with a short description. allen A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ Still on holiday :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:27:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Russian queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/03/05 12:21:54 GMT Daylight Time, allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM writes: <> There's a collection of links to bee related videos here: _http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000354;p=1_ (http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000354;p=1) . I haven't had a chance to watch them all yet, but there's some interesting stuff there relating to continental European methods of beekeeping. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:35:11 -0500 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Australian Queens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just want to add to what Allen said about chalkbrood and Australian queens and add a general word of caution. I tried Australian queens just once, via Canada, and perfectly legal. I bought 25 queens that were 4th to 5th generation open mated. In other words, the producer I bought them from had imported his stock from Australia. He is well regarded in Canada and the mothers of the queens I bought were said to be well selected. He is far north of the US border and is in a borderline area for agriculture...meaning, in this context, that he is pretty well isolated as far as drones are concerned. I had attended a seminar where his queens were mentioned as having good tolerance for trachael mites, so I decided to give them a try. Up until then, I had never had any difficulty with chalkbrood. Sure, I had seen mummies from time to time on the bottom board, but the chalkbrood never appeared to do any harm to the hive as a whole and it quickly cleared up with some hot summer weather. Allen mentioned something like 1/3rd of the brood being affected...I would say that 50% of these queens had up to 1/2 of the brood affected! I introduced these queens in late July, and the chalkbrood hit the next spring. It was truly terrible. But, when I requeened with 'standard' US stock, it quickly disappeared. (I sell nucs in the spring, and just one customer, the following year, complained of too much chalkbrood. I had no similar complaints from other customers and did not experience that myself.) Since, I talked to another person who also imported stock from the same Canadian source and had the same complaint. She reminded me that Australia did not (does not?) have chalkbrood, so the bees may have been especially susceptible. So...be warned. But why would anyone today want Australian breeding stock? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it, chalkbrood susceptiblility aside, but today we have a full range of partial resistence to adverse diseases and mites and a full range of well developed favorable traits. Might there really be heritable traits in bees from Australia that would be of benefit? Now, with the difference in hemispheres, there are certainly circumstances when one might like packages from Austrialia,,,but that is a different subject. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:26:16 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Herv=E9=20Log=E9?= Subject: The beekeeper and the climate In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I promised a post on climate change impact on beekeeping some weeks ago. I ordered some publications and a book that I was waiting for before finalizing the post, but I am tired to wait for them and the list is quite quiet. So I will try with basic official information on the web. Firstly, some basic links from North America and the United Nations : >From the USA: http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/impacts.html : basic information from the USEPA www.nap.edu/books/0309074347/html : a report that really worth to be read from the NAS >From Canada: http://www.climatechange.gc.ca/english/affect/ http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/education/scienceofclimatechange/understanding/newsletter/co2_winter_2002/pages/5_f.html >From the United Nations: http://unfccc.int/essential_background/feeling_the_heat/items/2902.php If you look for it, each country has his own official site about climate change awarness with more or less scientific data, depending on the target. I think anyone is able to make his/her own opinion. Secondly, what consquences for beekeeping ? It depends where you are, of course. Obviously, if you keep bees in Tuvalu or Malawi, the question does no longer make sense. You - or you children - will probably be a diving beekeeper, which is original but perhaps not what you expected. If you are in Western Europe, well I suggest to read the J. Fisher's article in spring beeculture 2004 for a diverting overview or the full the report of the Scienfici American Acadmy (www.nap.edu/books/0309074347/html) if you are courageous. The more the gulf stream will get weak because of ice melting, the more you will have to adapt to continental (Canadian type) climate instead of the oceanic temperate climate. I know this not new, but it is good to be informed it is confirmed by measures and missions in Arctic (Look for Amundsen International mission organized by Canada). Another consequence of the timescale change (far faster than usual evolution for most species): a period of biodiversity decrease (http://forests.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=28244), includind some floral species, which should be a concern for beekeepers. What about us, Canadians ? See the Environment Canada estimations and Health Canada assessments : (if you do not read French, clic on English in the top left of pages) http://www.climatechange.gc.ca/francais/publications/ccs/ http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hecs-sesc/bccs/publications/changement_climate_nord/chapitre2.htm http://www.climatechange.gc.ca/francais/publications/3nr/3NRChapitre6-French.pdf And this one is about climate modeling (from what I read methan emissions from pergelisoil melting was not taken into account...): http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/education/scienceofclimatechange/understanding/climate_models/index_f.html A very brief overview of main expected consequences is given for each area of Canada in the first link. 10% to 30% less moisture in the Canadian prairies soils. It should have some impact on nectar production. But warmer climate for Quebec, so not too bad for ME ! So me, myself and I should sell the Tercel and buy a giant SUV, I guess. 3C to 6C higher, what consequences on pests (Australian evaluation: http://www.acfonline.org.au/asp/pages/document.asp?IdDoc=1123 )? What species will come up here permantly apart deers and some fishes that already took advantage of the warmer climate (http://adaptation.nrcan.gc.ca/posters/articles/qb_09_fr.asp?Region=qb), what species will decline ? For example, with a 2 degrees increase and a dryer climate, what will be the new spread radius for AHB and SHB ? What new cultures will come, which ones will be forgotten ? Before you invest in your business for a 20 years period (amortization of your brand new HACCP honey house because of current honey barrel price...), you may want to assess the consequences of evapotranspiration on water available in soils ? What consequences on nectar yield of most important wild or cultivated species (dandelions, willows, clover, colza, golden rod, etc.) ? If you read some of the links above, you realized that governments in each industrialised country performed such assessment because of potential major impacts on economy. So beekeepers associations should obtain responses from the office in charge of climate change and agriculture of their country, if they are ever interested in. Of course, the more interest is expressed, the more (detailed) answeres will be given. Hervé, thinking one's lifestyle is not to be negotiated...unless one is living in Tuvalu. Qc, Canada, __________________________________________________________________ Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail : 250 Mo d'espace de stockage pour vos mails ! Créez votre Yahoo! Mail sur http://fr.mail.yahoo.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:31:32 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Australian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I tried Australian queens just once, via Canada, and perfectly legal. > I bought 25 queens that were 4th to 5th generation open mated. If they were 4th or 5th generation open mated how much of the original Australian genes are with those queens? I would suggest a small percentage but then I am not a geneticist. Maybe someone with experience could tell us what the percentage is. > Since, I talked to another person who also imported stock from the > same Canadian source and had the same complaint. She reminded me that > Australia did not (does not?) have chalkbrood, so the bees may have > been especially susceptible. Australia got chalkbrood about 1992. Thought I should thrown some facts into this debate as this is the second time inaccurate statements have been made. I know about this story of chalkbrood in Australian queens in Canada. Some of the people who have raised this with me I have no reason to doubt. It, however, raises the question of why does the same stock show susceptibility to chalkbrood in Canada but when used in Australia does not show the same problem? Climate? Management? Nutrition? Old infected combs? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:25:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Australian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd said: She reminded me that Australia did not (does not?) have chalkbrood, so the bees may have been especially susceptible. I never heard Australia did not have chalkbrood before. Even the queen breeder we dealt with has seen chalkbrood problems with stock sent in the past into Canada. Allen Dick documents the problem on his web site. He since has changed queen lines and told us chalkbrood is almost non existant now. Which concurs with my going though a 150 hives last week and only finding three hives with a few cells of chalkbrood. I imagine if we looked through a 150 of my production hives we would find at least three with a few chalkbood mummies! We were making splits and finding queens in each hive so our examination was a complete examination. The Missouri State inspector is inspecting those same hives this week so will report what he finds. Lloyd asks: But why would anyone today want Australian breeding stock? We want the alleles in our breeding program as the U.S. gene pool in my opinion has problems. A perfect example you wrote about the beekeeper inbreeding the chalkbrood queens in Canada and making the problem worse. The proper method (in my opinion) would have been to remove all queens which headed hives with chalkbrood and requeen with a line known not to be susceptable! Another point for the Australian import is being able to import a Buckfast line from England and a top notch line from Italy with the Australian package queens. With instrumental insemination we can pull ,preserve and later use those genes. What ever cross we choose to play with we should be able to produce hybrid vigor if nothing else. Bob Ps. Back to feeding bees. I Buried a four wheel drive one ton (with 250 gallons of syrup in a tote) to the axles a couple hours and had to walk a mile to get a farmer to pull me out. (no cell phone service). He brought his Chevy half ton four wheel drive to try first but it took his big Oliver tractor to get the job done. Cost me two hours time and a gallon of honey but cheaper than a wrecker call! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:23:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Australian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/03/05 23:15:05 GMT Daylight Time, queenbee@GIL.COM.AU writes: <> Climate could be a possibility, or the way the bees are kept. When I first had bees, I had chalk at low levels. I also had condensation in the hives in winter, due to the damp British climate. I put the hives on mesh floors, which eliminated the condensation, and also, ince=identally, eliminated the chalk, at least in that strain. I've no idea whether dampness could be a factor in the sort of levels of chalk we're hearing about here, but it might be worth considering. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::