From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:36:38 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.9 required=2.4 tests=AWL,DRUGS_ERECTILE, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334994887C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEVNis013404 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0505B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 110104 Lines: 2493 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:26:07 -0500 Reply-To: gmaguet@mts.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gilles Subject: Honey mislabelling In-Reply-To: <000301c552ab$4395e770$b47ba8c0@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All these products on the shelf which use the name honey, yet have none or very little honey in the product, need to be held accountable. I do recall when soy or rice beverages had used the word "milk" on the label of their product. The dairy associations took action and had their word, milk removed from any such products not containing real milk. In the near future, popular products such as "cheese whiz" might have to remove cheese from their label. Our beekeeping industry doesn't seem to have any associations with the power, money, or inclination to protect honey producers from such fraud. The food industries are laughing all the way to the bank, at least at us honey producers. Gilles :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:27:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Honey mislabelling I do not participate in the commercial production or distribution of honey, rather I pack and sell direct my own raw honey . My customers see, taste and understand the difference between my honey and the commercially packed honey and the various products claiming to contain honey. My typical customer would not be interested in a highly processed food either so I do not see heated and commercially packed honey or the various products which purport to contain honey as a threat. Instead the worse it gets the higher price I can charge for the real thing. I say bring it on! These junk products only serve to help differentiate my product from the "low cost producers". As a comparison, the typical milk at the grocer comes from a cow which lives in a feedlot and is pumped full of growth hormones and antibiotics. The cows are fed an unnatural diet of grains. The resultant milk product is heavliy processed and frankly tastes bland. Several small dairy producers here in the midwest are producing a non-homogenized grass fed product which sells for twice the price of the typical milk product. What I see is the majority of folks in the Ag production industry looking for the path of least resistance in the production of their food item. Feedlots, migratory beekeeping, roundup ready soybeans are all attempts to create a short cut and produce a cheaper product. As the industrilization of the food supply continues the opportunites for small producers of high quality food products grows immensely. We cannot stop the trends but we can ride them. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 15:52:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gerald Herrin Subject: Possible poisoning In-Reply-To: <200505081627.j48G4HmN008903@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I took newly hived swarm to an area I had used before, and today I find that the bees are all dead. They were piled up in front of the hive and also dead bees inside the hive. I suspect pesticide poisoning (a large alfalfa field is relatively close). Could the drawn comb inside the hive be used or should it be discarded? I would think that i could safely use the the drawn comb. Any suggestions? Gerald Herrin :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:08:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey mislabelling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian said: Feedlots, migratory beekeeping, roundup ready soybeans are all attempts to create a short cut and produce a cheaper product. I was on the same page with you Brian until the above. Please explain how moving your hives to different floral sources creates a cheaper product? Also pollination is the true value of the honeybee. If migratory beekeepers did not move hives then crops would not get pollinated. Sadly the truth is in the U.S. most people are content to live on fast food, drink five or six soda pops a day AND buy foreign honey because it IS cheaper! However the number of people wanting to eat healthy is on the increase I believe. They are the market for raw unprocessed honey. Also raw honey can cause health problems. The old story "bacteria will not grow in honey "is simply not true. Always wash all your equipment with a Clorox water solution before using! The USDA has pushed for ALL honey sold in the U.S. to be pasteurized two different times I am aware of. If a problem happens I believe the problem will come out of the raw honey end of the market. With a stroke of a pen the FDA can require all honey to be pasteurized. Milk is pasteurized for a reason. However slight you do take a chance with raw milk. That said I have ate raw honey and unpasteurized milk most my life. A health department inspector told me years ago the key to living a long & healthy life is to not eat at fast food places. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:58:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Possible poisoning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >They were piled up in front of the hive and also dead bees inside the hive. I suspect pesticide poisoning (a large alfalfa field is relatively close). Sounds like a pesticide kill to me. Two kinds of kills in my opinion. 1. bees make it back to the hive and die (your situation) 2. bees die in field and hive dwindles. A third type of kill I have seen on rare occasions is from pesticide contaminated pollen. hard to detect and usually caused by use of sevin on sweet corn in our area. Number one can also be caused by a person living nearby not wanting a beehive in the neighborhood. *If* you just moved a hive into a new location I would wonder! We moved a semi load into a new area in Texas one winter. A neighbor set out pans of poisen honey and killed many hives. When we found the source he admited what he had done but thought he would not get caught as he did not think the bees would have made it back to the hive. They did and were dead out front. We wanted to stake the guy over a fire ant nest but resolved the issue without violence. Spraying Alfalfa can be a problem but bees do not like to work alfalfa and a bit early for boll weavil spraying for our area but could indeed be the problem. Especially if the Alfalfa was in bloom. Records have to be kept for spraying. Find the owner of the field and ask. The last pesticde kill I had I went to the MFA sprayer in our area and told him I only wanted to know so I could rule out other possible causes and would not try to sue for damages. He then looked in his records and MFA had dragged a spray boom over the top of my hives when turning around in the L shaped field. The guy I was talking to had been the sprayer. He said he did not see the hives. He would have to been blind not to see the yard in my opinion but not wanting to go to jail for blacking both his eyes and having said I would not sue I dropped the issue! >Could the drawn comb inside the hive be used or should it be discarded? Without testing you can never be sure. You will get many opinions but the final decision will be yours. Choose wisely. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 23:05:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Honey mislabelling In-Reply-To: <200505081627.j48G4HmN008903@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I presume that there will be always a market for the different honeys as presented to the general public. Ranging from honey in the comb, pressed, raw extracted, extracted and Pasteurized through to the Ultra filtrated/ heated to levels that could (should?) be considered beyond the norms for true honey. The percentage market share depends on factors such as: Knowledge of individual purchasers, availability of honey type and quality, latest trend passing through the health food industry, price, regulations etc. The present situation as seen from the "normal" producer in the western world is one where market control has been lost - to mass producers in countries where there is limited transparency regarding production techniques. Coupled to the above is the willingness for importing packers to purchase this "unknown honey type" until a problem is proven. Western producers are inflicted with ever more stringent production controls whilst watching larger and larger quantities of "uncontrolled" honey arrive in the stores. Uncontrolled in the sense of proven information not being supplied about production techniques. One only has the end resulting "pot" visible - and that usually has minimal evidence of previous treatment regimes. Here (Canada.), the authorities have the ability to demand and have shown evidence that proper production procedures have been adhered to. It is stated by the packers themselves (amongst others) that to ensure continued future sales, beekeepers needs to comply to the latest regulations and be prepared to move with projected changes. Whilst this is being done, the same packers are undermining costly production enhancement by buying the cheapest material on the market - honey that is impossible to ensure is being produced in conditions and with techniques they demand of their own national producers. Adding insult to injury, as indicated in previous mails - the good name of honey is being ripped of by manufacturers who use it in quantities that are at legal limit for the name to be used. Adding confusion to insult - there appears to be the situation developing where the word honey is being used in products that may not contain honey at all. Difficult to imagine, but there needs to be a well organised offensive to stop this continued devaluation of honey. There needs to be a collective action by the national organisations to protect honey and develop an awareness in the open market. Governmental bodies are too limited in cash supply and manpower to undertake the task. Other matters are considered more important. We have to defend ourselves - or sink into a marrass of crystal clear goo. Why am I thinking of the "Boston Tea Party"!!!! I see Beef, Eggs, Turkey, Pork, Oranges, you name it being pushed by associated production boards. I see Jams, Burgers and thousands of other edible products in flyers as pushed into my mail box. Honey - one only hears about it when a quaint individual is shown on TV or bees are dead in piles before. hives. If those producers/manufacturers of Ultra filtered, heavily heated honey as presented to the general public in supermarkets etc. believe that their product is a proper reflection of true honey - then I would be pleased to be sent a letter stating the fact. One indicating the reasoning supporting their position. I suggest that most honey as presented to the general public via. the Food retailing industry is an insult to most producers. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:51:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: ISBA Journal - Free Download In-Reply-To: <200505070400.j473dGWO018208@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The April 2005 edition of the ISBA Journal, albeit late, is now available for download from http://hoosierbuzz.com/document/newsletters.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 06:30:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Honey mislabelling In-Reply-To: <000d01c5543c$0d1cf660$3bbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-38C22FBB > Sadly the truth is in the U.S. most people are content to live on fast food, >drink five or six soda pops a day AND buy foreign honey because it IS >cheaper! As a honey producer, I watch the prices. I watch them go up, I watch them go down. When the Chinese had their contamination problems, I watched them really go up. Imagine...$1.50 a pound in the barrel. Imagine again...over $4.00 in the jar on the supermarket shelf. Now that foreign honey is again flooding the US market, the barrel price is dropping like a rock. Packers are paying as little as they can get away with...well below $1.00 a pound. Free trade folks say this is a good thing, as it lowers the prices for the consumer. Who's kidding who? The price of honey is still over $4.00 a pound on the supermarket shelf. Makes one wonder...foreign honey is cheaper...for who...the packer? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 5/4/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 06:28:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald K Norman Subject: Re: Possible poisoning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gerald, I would probably use them but only a few frames at a time to evaluate it. Ken Norman :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 15:21:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Possible poisoning In-Reply-To: <4b29e4603d07ef9c7a12052383e4a274@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <4b29e4603d07ef9c7a12052383e4a274@earthlink.net>, Gerald Herrin writes >I took newly hived swarm to an area I had used before, and today I find >that the bees are all dead. They were piled up in front of the hive and >also dead bees inside the hive. I suspect pesticide poisoning (a large >alfalfa field is relatively close). Could the drawn comb inside the >hive be used or should it be discarded? I would think that i could >safely use the the drawn comb. Any suggestions? I have read the other responses to this and agree with what they say IF the initial impression of the the writer, that it was pesticides, is correct. However, I have quoted the whole of the initial post above, because I find it as interesting for what it does not say than what it does say. First clue to me, having seen a few pesticide kills in my time, that all may not be exactly as thought is that ALL the bees are dead. This would be a relatively unusual conclusion to such a situation, sure it can happen, and a swarm, with a prevalent of foragers, would be more likely to suffer this fate. However, the other information not included was weather, time it took to happen, and presence or absence of stores inside the hive. These are important pieces of information in deciding a possible/probable cause on the basis of facts reported in an internet posting. My first impression from the description of the disposition of the dead bees was not pesticides but starvation. I have seen it before and it was just like this. Summer starvations often have a lot of crawlers, even a predominance, and bees piled up outside the door where they have reached in their desperation of hunting for food. Lots of dead inside too. And no stores. So, new swarm, hived on dry combs, no nectar flow due to weather or absence of forage, and catastrophe looms in the absence of a feed. This would kill all the bees in the hive, whereas many pesticide kills leave a proportion alive. If this is not a possible cause then perhaps poisoning is indeed the key issue. Any chance someone disliked the hives presence so much that it could be malicious? In a case of malicious poisoning I would argue against using the combs, but in most other circumstances (bar disease) would do so without worry. Main thing is, if you want a reliable opinion, you have to give plentiful info. Almost to the point of tedium. As the cause may not be quite what first impressions or instincts tell you. Some of us are thousands of miles from you and so need as much information as possible in order to give an opinion which is worth anything. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 10:20:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Sleeping with the Enemy? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://tinyurl.com/b3r34 or http://tinyurl.com/afsxr This looks to me like a 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' situation. Beekeepers must co-operate along with other interests, even those diametrically opposed, harmful and offensive to the craft in order to achieve goals, but where does co-operation become co-option? I'm sure everyone will never agree on where one ends and the other begins. Comments? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 13:13:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gerald Herrin Subject: Re: Possible poisoning In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the things I most appreciate about reading the Bee-List is that one can take advantage of the experience and knowledge of many. After too much spam offering viagra and second mortgages, it's nice to have a list to refer to about beekeeping interests/problems. Details concerning the dead hive: The swarm was a large swarm (prime?) that came from a very strong, over-wintered hive ( I know because I saw it and watched the whole process... always an inspiring sight as Richard Taylor would said). The day it came out the temperature was 75F and the sky clear. The swarm settled about 18 feet up on a skinny pine tree close by my bee yard. That night, a cold front came through, dropping the temperature twenty degrees and more with rain and wind. At my age I decided that it was better to delay trying to retrieve the swarm since emergency rooms and broken limbs are fairly expensive in my area. The first good day, I managed to retrieve it (three days after ... no foraging if any during the time due to adverse weather). The newly hived swarm in question was put on old combs, with some pollen and capped honey(minimal: that is, maybe a half of a deep frame of honey) on them. I had not planned on feeding them, thinking that the available blossoms would suffice. The weather was in mid-70's, some clouds, on a Tuesday afternoon. The hive was found dead on a Sunday afternoon. Weather conditions had remained stable. There was exactly one bee left alive (barely). Black locust, wild mustard, et alia were blooming. Approximately a mile north of the site is a commercial cattle operation with extensive alfalfa fields. The site is owned by a family member very favorable to having bees. There were no bees stuck in the combs as if struggling to find food. Some were on the bottom board; most were piled immediately outside the hive entrance. I had not considered starvation as a possibility. Perhaps I should have. "If" the alfalfa had been sprayed for weevils, would one expect that some of the bees would have survived? I do not pretend to know much about the raising of alfalfa hay. Our pastures are mostly clovers and fescue. Again, many thanks to those who commented. I read almost all the posts and generally learn something each day. Sincerely, Gerald Springfield, Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 22:36:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Possible poisoning In-Reply-To: <579c4b550b22b2284571e190e67c8fcb@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <579c4b550b22b2284571e190e67c8fcb@earthlink.net>, Gerald Herrin writes >The newly hived swarm in question was >put on old combs, with some pollen and capped honey(minimal: that is, >maybe a half of a deep frame of honey) on them. OK, after three days in a tree how did the bees look when you hived them. They could already have been pretty hungry by them. If they were a bit slow, making a dull rather than happy buzz, and those that flew a bit aggressive, then the tank could have been pretty well empty. A near starving top swarm will not get too far on 'maybe half a bar' of honey. > I had not planned on >feeding them, thinking that the available blossoms would suffice. Under the circumstances you go on to describe this is an understandable decision, valid under the vast majority of situations. > The >weather was in mid-70's, some clouds, on a Tuesday afternoon. The hive >was found dead on a Sunday afternoon. Weather conditions had remained >stable. There was exactly one bee left alive (barely). Black locust, >wild mustard, et alia were blooming. Mid 70's, blooming crops within range (assuming you are not in a drought situation), does not foretell a starvation crisis looming. > Approximately a mile north of the >site is a commercial cattle operation with extensive alfalfa fields. Is it in flower, and if so is it yielding. Bees have starved to death on flowering crops before. >The site is owned by a family member very favorable to having bees. >There were no bees stuck in the combs as if struggling to find food. >Some were on the bottom board; most were piled immediately outside the >hive entrance. Summer starvation tends not to show this 'heads in cells' pattern that is present when clustering bees starve. They are much more openly and scattered, and the last to die religiously drag the corpses of the earlier dead to the door, dump them immediately outside, until there are not enough left alive and they drop to the floor. How much honey was left in the box at the end? Was there any brood started? Pollen stored? These all indicate whether the colony started off OK and then got poisoned, or whether it was just given insufficient to get going with and died due to lack of resources. There is one other possibility that sprung to mind, but I had discounted. A large prime swarm. What did you hive it in? Was there enough space? How far did you move it in the box? If you closed it in to do the move, how long was it closed in for? If this large swarm was in a single the possibility of suffocation thus raises its head. ( This is not a pretty sight, I have done it, and it is both distressing and embarrassing.) > >I had not considered starvation as a possibility. Perhaps I should >have. It is a constant factor one has to consider, especially in dearths. Spring is also a risk time when build up of brood rearing can outstrip supplies, and package bees need special attention and feeding on installation. Your swarm possibly, after three days of hunger, needed a feed urgently, and to be treated as package bees would have been.. >"If" the alfalfa had been sprayed for weevils, would one expect >that some of the bees would have survived? Never seen a mass kill on alfalfa ( I men by that I have no direct experience of alfalfa, other would be better placed to answer this one). Only death close to your description I have seen was paraquat poisoning. ( Farmer burning out some old pasture prior to ploughing and reseeding, but sprayed the stuff in a drought, and the water carriers found it, took it back to the hive, and caused a slow death of the colony over several days. >Again, many thanks to those who commented. I read almost all the posts >and generally learn something each day. I am terribly busy these days and do not post anywhere as often as I once did, but just felt there were unsafe (note, not necessarily wrong) assumptions being made here. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 15:56:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Honey Molasses In-Reply-To: <000301c552ab$4395e770$b47ba8c0@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Allen said: He is not interested to write to Tony Roma about Honey Molasses. Answer: I did write to Tony Roma by e-mail to http://www.tonyromas.com/files/contact.asp I asked simple questions: 1. what is honey molasses and 2. what is the percentage of honey in the 'Carolina Honeys (TM)' BBQ sauce product? I have not received any answer for the past 5 days. For Bee_L members, I would suggest taking a positive action, write to Tony Roma and just ask the two simple questions as above. Instead of setting on the fence and waiting for things to happen, Why Not we make an awareness campaign to the companies about their misleading labeling of products. medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca I think I already know. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 18:03:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kevin Bountiful Subject: Strange Occurance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I walked out to the front of one of my two hives in my back yard and found a very strange sight. There was half a bee (front half) lying on the ground outside the hive with all the legs kicking. I picked up the kicking half-body to see what happened. I could not see the other half of the body anywhere. Upon further inspection It really looked like it was born that way? There wer no signs whatsoever of an injury behind the midsection of the body. It was closed up just fine like it was supposed to be that way. She had all the legs and wings, etc. completely normal minus the abdomen. I'm stumped. It kicked for about an hour before dying. There were no other signs outside the hive of anything else like it. It's been cool and rainy here, no more than 4-5 other dead bees outside the hive. Has anyone ever ran across anything like this? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 18:57:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeffrey Hamelman Subject: Re: Spring Cleaning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have also > stored > some deeps this way but I would start out slow with some test cases. > John Horton Thanks for the post, John, I often have some deeps with capped frames of honey in them that I store to use with new colonies or for early spring feeding as necessary. Leaving them open for the bees to get into seems like it would be disaster. Any hints on how to store them in a way that a) requires no chemicals, and at the same time b) prevents wax moth damage? Thanks. Jeffrey Hamelman, Hartland, Vermont > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 21:26:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Strange Occurance In-Reply-To: <200505100020.j49NbHe2016572@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>>>>>>> I walked out to the front of one of my two hives in my back yard and found a very strange sight. There was half a bee (front half) lying on the ground outside the hive with all the legs kicking. -----------snip------- Has anyone ever ran across anything like this? <<<<< Sure have, wasps of most types can do this. Its commonm enough and generally there is no danger to your hives until and unless you see several wasps trying to gain entrance to a hive at the same time. Then you need to worry a little, but there isn't much you can do except knock the hive about scaring the begeezus out of the wasps (and annoying the bees to). If you are having a wasp problem in your hives, then you need to reduce the entrance so the bees can more easily defend it. A wasp can kill 100s of bees before it gets killed. Again though, seeing a severed head isn't anything to be alarmed about. A queen wasp probably just needed to feed her new young in a new nest somewhere in the vicinity. They are all over anyway and just as beneficial as honey bees are to the environment. They help pollinate things that bees might not, they help in pest control for flies and catapillers and such, and each wasp species does its part. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, FL USA http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ mailto:scot@linuxfromscratch.org . ` , ` ' .,';`,. ``. '. _/^\_ :;.,';`'.,` `., ' '`, /_____\ .:.,"'` /\_____/\ .,:`'" \###/.,';` :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 18:27:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Storing combs with honey and pollen In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I often have some deeps with capped frames of honey > in them that I store to > use with new colonies or for early spring feeding as > necessary. Leaving them > open for the bees to get into seems like it would be > disaster. Any hints on > how to store them in a way that a) requires no > chemicals, and at the same > time b) prevents wax moth damage? Thanks. > > Jeffrey Hamelman, > Hartland, Vermont Probably the best way is to freeze everything for at least a week in your freezer (0 degrees F or below). After that, put in a plastic bag when you take it out to prevent condensation of moisture on the super cold hive body, frames, and combs. After everything is up to ambient temperature then it's up in the air as to how you store them. You could keep them in the bags, stack them and seal all openings, or some other methode which might be mentioned on this discussion list. You freeze all materials so as to kill the eggs, larvae, adults of wax moths, hive beetles, and any other creepy-crawlies which might be harboring themselves in your equipment. A good hard freeze does wonders for about everything but AFB. Hate AFB. Had to learn the hard way not to mess with it. Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 21:36:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Strange Occurance "There was half a bee (front half) lying on the ground outside the hive with all the legs kicking." Several types of critters can do this. Have you seen yellow jackets or other wasps/hornets around there lately? But it could have been any of a dozen things. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 21:06:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Sleeping with the Enemy? In-Reply-To: <00df01c554b3$008e92b0$b47ba8c0@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that I might have enjoyed the chance to be in such meetings that have lead up to this situation. Whether I would have come out party to an agreement is another matter. Most proposals merit investigation and I suggest that organisations such as BBKA are there to do that. It appears from the reports indicated that maybe there was a miscalculation made in the manner in which grass root members were informed about progress and situation. I would have thought that once a potential position had been arrived upon, realising it had the ability to "raise hairs" that some sort of membership vote would have been advisable. Are past adversaries to be forever held in such a position? - or do situations move on. Producers of bee killing compounds might really wish to try and change their ways and means. Given enough rope ....... Just watch carefully. Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 21:01:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Possible poisoning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with what Murray has posted. My answer was based on the asumption the beekeeper had ruled out the obvious. Also having met Gerald on several occassions I doubt his bees starved but I have seen as Murray said bees go outside to die in spring when a hive runs out of stores but NEVER in my hives this time of year in Missouri as I am working , feeding, requeening, evaluating and spliting. Also some Black Locust supers go on this week. I do realize some hobby beekeepers in Missouri are taking their first peeks in their hives. My days are 12 -14 hours right now. Help is on 8 hours. Hardly seems fair! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 21:40:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Shaw Subject: Re: Honey Molasses In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just did a search for 'Carolina Honeys (TM)' and came up with a link to the following web page from Tony Roma's. http://www.romaribs.com/Gift.html It claims that the product contains real honey and molasses. (in re missing comma of a previous post.) Dick Shaw 3rd year with a few bees Memphis, TN :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 23:50:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: davidbrowder Subject: Re: Honey Molasses MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ya know the Molasses industries is getting hammered by the High Fructose Corn Syrup Cartel too. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Shaw" To: Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 10:40 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Honey Molasses > I just did a search for 'Carolina Honeys (TM)' and came up with a link > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 22:07:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Honey Molasses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It claims that the product contains real honey and molasses. (in re > missing comma of a previous post.) Thanks for that. On the French portion of the Canadian label, it says, "melasse de miel". "de" is not -- AFAIK -- a comma, so we begin to wonder... --- begin wondering --- Did somebody just translate the English label into French literally, without understanding it? Is the label wrong in English and even more wrong in French? Are most ingredient lists fact, or fiction? Who polices these things? What is the penalty for inaccuracies? --- end wondering --- allen (still wondering) http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:13:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Possible poisoning In-Reply-To: <000d01c55504$2746aae0$23bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <000d01c55504$2746aae0$23bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >Also having met Gerald on several occassions I doubt his bees starved but I >have seen as Murray said bees go outside to die in spring when a hive runs >out of stores but NEVER in my hives this time of year in Missouri as I am >working , feeding, requeening, evaluating and spliting. Also some Black >Locust supers go on this week. Sorry if it seemed patronising Bob and Gerald, but it was not meant to be. The symptoms as described just jumped out at me and said 'starvation' above all other causes. I agree it would be an unusual situation, but here we were talking about a swarm without the residual reserves or ongoing feeding that would be the case in normally operated overwintered colonies. In his very fair reply Gerald actually said he had not considered starvation a possibility, and had not thought about feeding. Among your list of current tasks Bob, as written above, is feeding. So we have a vulnerable colony (more so after hearing it hung around for a few days in bad weather) going into a box with relatively few stores. It could already have been on a knife edge for survival. I there was a flow on it should have been able to fend for itself, and the half frame of stores would have probably seen it through 48 hours or so to allow it to get fresh supplies in. So, was there indeed a flow on, or is it still to come (Bob would, I suspect, be unlikely to be a week or two late in supering). But there is also the chance it was already getting into a pretty low state before it was hived. Of course, the pesticide theory is still also valid. However, the most likely cause of a colony death at all times remains the most obvious one in whatever circumstances prevail. >My days are 12 -14 hours right now. Help is on 8 hours. Hardly seems fair! > Tell me about it Bob! Same here, but fortunately I have some E.European staff again this year, and they are difficult to keep in work. They do SO much in the time they have it amazes me, and telling them to knock off for the night is like an insult to them. One of them, the chargehand and a really good bee handler from Lithuania, thinks it a very lean week if he does not get 80 hours. The local guys don't want to know about long hours and 3 am starts, and absenteeism is a big issue, usually instigated by laziness or demands from wife/girlfriend. They just don't turn up and you are left with half a squad. You can sack them, but you cant get replacements because unemployment round here is only about 3%, and most of those are the ones no-one wants anyway. So tapping into the pool of available beekeepers and summer students from Poland, Lithuania, and Ukraine has been a tremendous bonus. Would like to man 100% with those in the not too distant future. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 06:26:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Williams Subject: Re: Dead Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This may be the result of a Wood Ant invasion. This sounds similar to what I had a few years ago. I can't remember if honey was left in the hive in my case. Now when I move bees I avoid dead wood. George Williams Florida :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:14:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gerald Herrin Subject: Re: Possible poisoning In-Reply-To: <1E$Kc7qO8FgCFwlN@denrosa.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, Occam's Razor. Gerald And thanks for your helpful comments. I appreciate them. Gerald Herrin geraldherrin@earthlink.net On May 10, 2005, at 2:13 AM, Murray McGregor wrote: > > However, the most likely cause of a colony death at all times remains > the most obvious one in whatever circumstances prevail. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:12:43 -0400 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Introductory Beekeeping Course, Guelph ON June 26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For your information. A queen rearing course is also scheduled for the 26th of June. Visit the Ontario Beekeepers' site for details. www.ontariobee.com click on meetings. A course is also scheduled for July 10th in Lanark ON; this is in conjunction with the OBA's Summer meeting on the 9th. Introductory Beekeeping with an Emphasis on IPM (Integrated Pest Management) Date: Saturday June 25, 2005 Time: 9:30 am - 4:00 pm Location: Orchard Park Office Centre, 5420 Highway 6 North, Guelph ON Lunch: Provided with registration fee. Coffee and snacks also included. Cost: $90.00 plus 7% GST for the day. (Total = $96.30 per person per workshop) Note: Each workshop is limited to a maximum of 24 participants, on a first come, first serve basis. Contact the Tech-Transfer office at (519) 836-3609 or e-mail shrewless@yahoo.com to receive your registration package. This beekeeping workshop consists of classroom sessions and hands-on lessons in the bee yard. Topics include basic honey bee biology, working in the bee colony, beekeeper responsibilities, monitoring for pests and diseases and integrated pest management. Each participant will receive a copy of the NEW Ontario Beekeeping Manual. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 23:26:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Missouri honey crop (was Possible poisoning) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray said: In his very fair reply Gerald actually said he had not considered starvation a possibility, and had not thought about feeding. Gerald's area is at least two weeks ahead of mine. Plenty of both nectar & pollen coming in both areas. Hard for me to see a swarm (without brood to feed) starving to death this time of year but I suppose always a possibility. Murray said: Among your list of current tasks Bob, as written above, is feeding. There is a big difference between the way the beekeeper making a living from beekeeping and the hobby beekeeper thinks. Hobby means "does not care if sustainable" I look at the scenario like I have been standing in front of a slot machine and feeding money and waiting for a jackpot to get my investment back. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you don't and every once in awhile you get a bumper crop! Will share a few Missouri secrets. Right now the big picture is getting hives into position to maximize the honey flow. I am feeding to create foragers for the main honey flow. I only feed the hives that need feed or else those which don't will swarm. Current timing is May 15th. south and June 1st. for my area. I am moving hives toward Gerald's area as the honey flow is two weeks ahead of my area. The Yellow Blossom sweet Clover will bloom on last years plants so you can judge the forage if you know what to look for. At the end of the south flow I will move those hives back to catch the last two weeks in my area. I have completely emptied yards in areas which look like a late or poor flow. I have moved my stronger hives into areas which look promising. I do not guess about a location. I go out and look. Get out of the truck and check fields. Usually my hard work pays rewards in higher honey production. This week I have been looking at fields white with Dutch Clover without a bee on the flowers. Bumble bees but no honeybees. For unknown reasons can happen and has happened before. I am concerned! I have got time now but if two weeks into the main flow and the bees are not on the Dutch Clover then its time to relocate the hives to either Yellow or white sweet clover as our main flow only runs 5-6 weeks. Sitting in one place and getting half a honey crop is not an option. In our area the sweet clovers are always dependable as they are deep rooted. We are getting short on rainfall. White Dutch is shallow rooted and burns up easily. Commercial beekeeping is complex. I know from my private talks with Murray over the years we have been friends his movements in Scotland are dictated by floral sources and weather conditions. I know that many beekeepers have tried to make a living from bees in Scotland to only end up in failure. In other words you can be a bee-haver in the Dakotas of the U.S. and be successful ( 200 lb. average) but in Missouri (50 lb. state average) you have got to work at making a crop! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:58:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Honey Molasses In-Reply-To: <013201c55515$d65b29a0$b47ba8c0@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Searching for "melasse de miel" produces no results that I could obtain. Are we suffering from some marketing consultant's spin. Lets keep on digging on this one. Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:32:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Dutch Clover nectar In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Bob Harrison wrote: > This week I have been looking at fields white with Dutch Clover without a bee on the flowers. Bumble bees but no honeybees. For unknown reasons can happen and has happened before. I am concerned! > > We are getting short on rainfall. White Dutch is shallow rooted and burns up easily. I live in south central Alabama and our white clover bloom has been on for almost a month now. Like Bob, I have not seen much activity on the bloom although I wasn't looking that hard at the beginning of the bloom. Also, unlike Bob, we have had good moisture this spring. Mike Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery, Alabama __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:37:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Strange Occurance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << There was half a bee (front half) lying on the ground outside the hive with all the legs kicking.>> Wasps. They drop onto the bee - usually an old one walking about in front of the hive - bite it in two, and take the juicy abdomen back to the nest for the larvae. Other times they'll bite off the legs and wings and fly off with the entire bee, which is bigger than they are. they have trouble getting airborne with the load, and it's quite a sight to see them struggling off. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:42:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harold Rogers Subject: dutch clover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Read the article on dutch clover. Here in SW Ohio where I live I have patches of golden rod and my bees stink up the hive from bringing in so much. Up the road a few miles my friend has several acres of golden rod and his bees don't go near it. Also my friend has honey suckel and his bees get in that real good, but the bees I have don't get near the hoey suckel. We think there must be something in the soil that is making bees reject certain plants, or the soil nees certain elements for the plant to be what the bees want. This is just an idea maybe some one has had the same thing. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:04:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan & Jan Subject: Re: Possible poisoning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You should be OK with alfalfa spraying IF THE ALFALFA WAS NOT IN BLOOM. I have seen bees collect water from crops from dew if it is a drought situation or no nearby water source Dan Veilleux Boone area In the Mountains of NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:05:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan & Jan Subject: Re: Storing combs with honey and pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I store mine in a deep freeze Dan Veilleux Boone area In the Mountains of NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:34:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Waggle dance leads bees to nectar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Short article from the BBC relating to Honey bee "dancing" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4536127.stm Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:47:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Re: Waggle dance leads bees to nectar Comments: cc: DPerlman@sfchronicle.com, JoTraynor@aol.com, barry@birkey.com, phwells@earthlink.net, harrington-wells@utulsa.edu In-Reply-To: <4282C0B3.8030304@mts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Peter Dillon wrote: >Short article from the BBC relating to Honey bee "dancing" > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4536127.stm I have studied the original Nature article (upon which the BBC article was based) and will provide a considered response for BEE-L subscribers in due time. The claims the authors made far exceeded the experimental results they obtained Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* * As far as I can judge, I am not apt to follow blindly the lead * of other men. I have steadily endeavored to keep my mind free, * so as to give up any hypothesis, how much beloved, ... as soon * as facts are opposed to it. Charles Darwin, 1876 * ******************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:41:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: dutch clover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >This is just an idea maybe some one has had the same thing. I agree with Harold but would go even farther and say humidity, soil moisture and a bunch of different conditions effect nectar flow. Flows of the same plant can vary even within the same county. I did see my first bee working Dutch Clover today but only one. I spoke with two large commercial beekeepers today by phone. The Missouri beekeeper reported the bees were not working the Black Locust which is my observation. They were all over the Willows getting pollen but not a bee on my Black Locust trees. I did check several times at the times I believe they would normally forage but something was not right for Black Locust nectar today. Maybe tomorrow! The other beekeeper is in Nebraska and just returned from winter in Texas last week. He reports no action this week on Black locust or Dutch Clover. He says his bees have finally recovered from his last California almond pollination. Wonders what the holdup is with Apiguard registration. Reports say the product will be in a chalking tube for the large beekeeper but too late for this spring use. My tests over the last year show the product about the same as Apilife var in varroa control. USDA testing got the same results as mine. I believe Api Life Var might be slightly easier to use but not sure what the final apiguard product will be like. The experimental apiguard thymol is in a tub and you place the required amount on a card (which is silver coated on one side). Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:56:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: swarm In-Reply-To: <4282C0B3.8030304@mts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed this is a very sweet swarm story. i am eating lunch when my cell rings and the pest removal guy calls to tell me of a swarm at a car dealership. it happens to be less than a mile from where in am eating. i have my veil and gloves but no box. when i drive up i immediately see the swarm, huge. on a branch of a pine tree 3 feet in the air. i asked the owner of the car dealership for a box and some duct tape. i put the box on the ground under the branch, shook the branch and they all fell in. i looked hopefully and there was the queen. after 10 minutes i shook the branch to get the stragglers. then i left a 3"X3" flap of the box open for about 15 minutes until all but a few were flying about. a little duct tape to seal the box and a bunch of air holes poked in the box. when i got home i put them in a nuc with 4 frames. does it get any better? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:01:14 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: dutch clover MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Many years ago, when I first had bees, my father discussed this phenomenon with me. The way he put it was to try to "think the way the bee thinks". Simply, bees always collect nectar form the FIRST they find when they go out to forage. If your goldenrod is nearest the hive, that is what they will collect etc. (By the way I like goldenrod honey, when not mixed with other weeds. Also buckwheat honey is very, dark , rich flavored. It is an acquired taste, I guess) EDW > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:24:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Fw: Honey Molasses????????????? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Dear Bee-L members, I received the following message from one of the beekeepers who made an inquiry to Tony Roma's regarding Honey Molasses. The message from Tony Roma's guest relations at guest.relations@romacorp.com was: "According to our chef, honey molasses is a refined honey, not available for sale. Tony Roma's recipes are proprietary information and not available for distribution. Thank you." Guest Relations, Interesting! medhat :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:22:48 -0500 Reply-To: Hroller McKnutt Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hroller McKnutt Subject: Re: honey molasses In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is the reply I recieved from Tony Roma's... a "refined" honey eh... Mike in Warrensburg, MO On 5/12/05, Guest Relations @ Tony Roma's Famous For Ribs wrote: > > According to our chef, honey molasses is a refined honey, not available for > sale. Tony Roma's recipes are proprietary information and not available for > distribution. Thank you. > > Guest Relations :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:11:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey mislabelling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Michael, I have enjoyed the posts you have shared on BEE-L over the years! I almost emailed direct but again I believe the list needs to hear what I am about to say. It is impossible to compete with foreign honey in the U.S.. It is foolish to try. Your business HAS TO BE sustainable. You have got to know your cost in your honey. Then add a profit to maintain sustainability. If sales in stores slow due to your higher shelf price then cut back on production and store equipment. If you lower your price below sustainability then you are headed for banckruptcy! When the price is up I put more hives on the ground. When the price drops then numbers go down. When honey in the drums price drops (or you can not find a buyer at even a low price) then I quit trying to produce a huge amount of honey in the drums! In todays beekeeping industry you need to adjust to market demands quickly. I have got as much equipment stored as in use right now. Mike said: Makes one wonder...foreign honey is cheaper...for who...the packer? As long as the consumer buys foreign honey then there is a demand. The "only" way I can see helping ease the problem is through better label laws but the big boys got the money to fight label laws and willing to spend the money to keep label laws the way they are! Small print for country of origin you can barely read! Maybe never heard before: Most of the honey sold by *big* packers to Sam's & wal mart is a mix of all the loads of poor quality foreign honey bought during the year by the packer. Not wanting to ruin his grocery store market he gives a wal mart bid and dumps the honey on a price conscious market. Each time an inferior honey is dumped on the market people quit using honey as they think *all * honey tastes as bad as what they just bought at wal mart! Another reason they dump I have been told is the slow time it takes for Wal Mart to pay for the large order. Months is not rare. I have heard packers crying about the problem at national conventions. My self and other beekeepers think the packer/wal mart problem is hilarious! packers are always running on beekeeper money ( send drums of honey and we will pay in either 60-90 days or up to two years) and now wal mart is running on big packer money and they are crying to the beekeepers they have doing the same thing to for years! Not much fun to keep going to the mail box for a check which was supposed to come last week. Beekeepers have waited 2-3 years for packer checks and have lost the money completely as in the case of Western Commerce. The above does not fit all packers and some are very reliable. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 15:51:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Fw: Honey Molasses????????????? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. wrote: >"According to our chef, honey molasses is a refined honey, not available >for sale. Tony Roma's recipes are proprietary information and not >available for distribution. Thank you." > > They might want to sue a couple of Canadian restaurants (I think they were in Vancouver) who also use the term. Trial of the century. My guess is that "Honey Molasses" is the equivalent of "vaporware": something said to exist that in fact does not. Bill Gates is also in that business. Or maybe Tony is pressing bees into cruel and unusual honey refining. Where is the Department of Labor when we need them? I doubt if I would want to buy a car from Tony, much less "Honey Molasses". Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:16:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: MattAllan@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Honey Molasses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I contacted the user of 'honey molasses' and got the following reply - Dear Matthew: =A0 According to our chef, honey molasses is a refined honey, not available for=20 sale. Tony Roma's recipes are proprietary information and not available for=20 distribution. Thank you. =A0 Guest Relations I also queried whether their labelling was legal, to which they did not=20 reply. Did anyone else have a response from them? Matthew Allan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:49:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: dutch clover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I rarely see bees work the dutch white clover in this area (Atlanta, Ga) due to the proliferation of huge mature tulip poplar trees and other tree/shrub sources. The long bloom period of 6-8 weeks of tulip poplar (April/May) and large amount of nectar availability (tsp per flower and 1 visit) vs dutch clover (150-250 flower visits per trip) does seem to confirm that bees work the easiest and best sugar concentration source. Jerry Wallace :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:27:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Honey Molasses Et Al MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would like to pursue a newsletter or journal article on "honey" products that don't appear to actually contain any honey. I've invited the Tony Roma group to elaborate on "refined honey", but I'm certain there are many other products whose claim to contain honey is dubious. If the Bee-L membership could inform the list (or me directly) of additional "candidates" I would be willing to track them down and see what "refined" comments I could glean from the group. The idea would be to see if we could generate some mainstream press coverage of such products, after completing the survey of producer's claims and explanations. C. Crowell Hightstown, NJ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:18:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Honey mislabelling In-Reply-To: <000301c55720$9314a1a0$1cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-35F2F6A > It is impossible to compete with foreign honey in the U.S.. >It is foolish to try. >Your business HAS TO BE sustainable. I realize all this, Bob. It is not what I was getting at. > >Mike said: >Makes one wonder...foreign honey is cheaper...for who...the packer? Bob said: >As long as the consumer buys foreign honey then there is a demand. The consumer buys whatever honey is on the shelf. I was only talking about price, as it relates to the importation of inexpensive honey. The recent wide fluctuations in the barrel price for honey, should, according to our government, effect the price in the marketplace. Isn't that the reason why our government says we should allow less expensive foreign products in...even though they can ruin our domestic businesses. The consumer will benefit with lower prices? I was only asking...why is honey in the supermarket still $4.00 a pound, when the packers have dropped the price paid to the beekeepers. They raised the retail price for honey, "because the price of bulk honey hit an all time high." Well, when will the "consumer" see lower prices? Bet they don't. But you and I will. So, as I said before... Who's kidding who? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 5/10/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:33:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey mislabelling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A large packer in our area is inching the price down by always keeping the low price on the shelf. He is in no hurry to reach the price level of before the price hike. he brags he has made enough money to buy a new packing line by keeping the price up and buying low. He is getting all the honey he wants in the seventy cent per pound range and as Mike says the store price is still at close to the price honey was when selling in the drums at the buck fifty price. Actually keeping store honey at todays levels helps most beekeepers but eventually the foreign honey packers will try and force the U.S. honey sellers out of the market place as history always repeats itself "unless we learn from past mistakes". Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:06:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Honey Molasses Et Al In-Reply-To: <051220052127.13796.4283CA46000482CD000035E4216028130299019 D0C9C079B9D9A0C@att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6F5FFBC > I would like to pursue a newsletter or journal article on "honey" > products that don't appear to actually contain any honey. >C. Crowell And what about the products that claim to be made with honey, only to find "honey" next to "salt," or "artificial flavors" on the ingredients list, and High Fructose Corn Syrup first on the list. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 5/10/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:47:30 -0500 Reply-To: "E. Whalen-Pedersen" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "E. Whalen-Pedersen" Subject: Honey Molasses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bee-L Subscribers, I think this is getting a little blown out of proportion. Can we end this, please ? ! The question to ask of Tony Roma's is whether this contains honey and/or molasses. If it does not contain either one or both it might be a questionable name. There clearly is no such thing as "honey molasses." I'll agree that the answers given by Tony Roma's are not particularly satisfying but think about it: The "Guest Relations" department at Tony Roma's likely doesn't know anything about what honey, molasses, or any of the other ingredients actually are. They were also likely told to carefully safeguard their recipe. This so-called "Honey Molasses" is likely is missing a hyphen (Honey-Molasses), comma (Honey, Molasses), slash (Honey/Molasses), or even some other symbol in the name. "Refined honey" also does not exist, as was suggested by Tony Roma's in their alleged answers. That is not correct but likely not illegal if it was not used to deliberately mislead consumers. The name "honey molasses" does not meet any standard of identity in the U.S. Laws under the Code of Federal Regulations(CFR), Part 21, governing food and food ingredients. Alternatively, consider that the sauce may have been given some "fanciful" name by a Corporate Chef, Marketing person, (or more likely some Advertising Agency). It may even have been "Trademarked" (TM)? In any these cases the ingredients would not have to be disclosed (perhaps only able to be challenged by the FDA or another government agency if it was potentially misleading to consumers. This is only likely if it contained NEITHER of the aforementioned ingredients -- honey and/or molasses). So, let me just clarify: I'm not a lawyer. I don't work for, or have anything to do with Tony Roma's. I don't have any vested interest in ANY of this. I just would like to see a volume reduction in my e-mail inbox on this topic. I think the above factors warrant some consideration on your part. Thanks and best regards to all. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:29:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Fw: Honey Molasses????????????? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am I incorrect when thinking that any honey that is manipulated, added to or has material removed from it may no longer be termed as honey? Refined honey! I am thinking that this "honey" in the sauce may be nothing more than cheap, near denatured bakers honey that has been heated to such a level that it may have the appearance of molasses. As to getting the companies using honey in their products to come clean - that will be like getting a European cuckoo to come and welcome spring in my Manitoban garden. Only those who use prime materials are proud of their base materials and they prove what they are using quite openly. I suppose it might be interesting to ask to see a sample of the honey - that would not break trade secrets. .... "honey molasses is a refined honey, not available for sale."... One may also ask if it is not for sale, then why not? - Unfit for general sale! If publication of a specific article is to be envisaged, IMHO there is little point in doing so in a Beekeepers journal, the readers would I presume be already informed and onside. Consumer protection organisations might be interested. Any national organisations willing to take on the general use of honey in a manner that practically frauds the general public? I am not in any position to get things moved. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 19:48:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Mike Stoops Subject: Honeybee population evaluation In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Would like some help/suggestions. I would like to conduct an evaluation of an area to see if there are any bee populations residing within that area. I know the common thought is that even with the heavy decimation of feral swarms there are still a few to be found in any area. I would like to determine if this is, in fact, the case. I am thinking of trying to establish a queen mating yard where I can control for sure the linage of the virgin queens and also, to the best extent possible, the linage of all the drones in the area. To do this, the area of about 15 to 20 miles in diameter should be devoid of all bee populations. At least, this is my understanding. I'd like some feedback from the list as to how I might go about sampling the area and what to use. Mike Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery, Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:28:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Fw: Honey Molasses????????????? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >...honey molasses is a refined honey, not available for sale. Tony Roma's recipes are proprietary information... Aren’t there some of you from the USDA out there lurking on BeeL? I wonder what your thoughts are on this. I also sent an email. So far they haven’t responded to mine. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 01:09:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Ireland Subject: Honey Molasses In-Reply-To: <003f01c5575d$b9f40800$020a0809@D8200> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I just wanted to say that I think one of the huge benefits to the BEE-L is that it provides an excellent opportunity to learn what other beekeepers find important. I have never given much thought to what Tony Roma's puts in their BBQ sauce and yet I am reminded through this listserv that it may affect me and the future of beekeeping. I get over 80 email messages a day and I have to say the ones I enjoy the most are from this group. If I ever get tired of it I guess I will unsubscribe. Until then, thank you for sharing your stories, thoughts, and lives with all of us out here. James Ireland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 06:05:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Honey mislabelling In-Reply-To: <000301c55720$9314a1a0$1cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:11 PM 5/12/05 -0500, you wrote: > >It is impossible to compete with foreign honey in the U.S.. >It is foolish to try. > So true- but only if you play by their rules! Many years ago- back in the early 70's actually, I was in the Maple Syrup business. I marketed my syrup to tourists through specialty stores in smaller containers (1/10th gallon) and capitalized heavily on words like "pure" and "natural" and "local", attractive packaging, etc.. As a result, I was able to get $40 a gallon for my syrup while the going price was closer to $20. I spent more time developing markets, it would have been simpler to put the stuff up in gallon jugs or 5 gallon cans and got rid of it but I wasn't a big producer and the operation wouldn't have been a job, it would have been a nuisance. Targeting a niche market made my small syrup operation profitable, at the expense of labor-intensive marketing activities. Hell, I couldn't afford my own syrup :) Now I'm becoming a small-scale beekeeper and I intend to utilize the same kind of marketing approach with my honey and other hive products- I can afford to do it this way because I've got 5 hives, not 2000. My goal is to have fun, learn a lot about bees, and make honey, and I'm sure I'll be successful at that. I hope to also make money and while I don't expect to get rich on 5 hives but I do intend to squeeze every last nickle out of my production and in no way plan to compete with imported and/or mass-produced honey. Hopefully I'll actually be able to afford to eat my own honey :) I'm sure everyone here has heard this argument before. George- ------------------------------------- George Fergusson Whitefield, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:23:25 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Fw: Honey Molasses????????????? In-Reply-To: <200505130328.j4D33H5r027751@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe that Tony Roma's response that "honey molasses" is a "refined honey" is a complete and accurate answer from their point of view, and that they are in compliance with the USDA ingredient labeling requirements. I found "refined honey" as a product group sold by The Kimpton Group, a British company based in London. I've e-mailed them for a definition of "refined honey" and asked them to venture a guess as to what the "refined honey" "honey molasses" would be. I'm guessing that it's just a blend of honey and molasses that has had some sort of processing and or filtering. Kimpton Brothers webpage on their "refined honey" is http://www.kimpton.com/body/RefindH.htm Janet A. Katz :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:00:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lambert van der Veen Subject: Sugar Syrup Storage As a hobby beekeeper and queen breeder with about 50 hives, I like to have sugar syrup available during the season without the need to mix it up each time I need some. The problem is that stored sugar syrup will start fermenting after a while. Even sooner if it got "contaminated" with honey. My approach for years is to dump 54 liter (14.3 US gallon) of cold water in a bottling tank, add 2 bags of granulated sugar of 40 kg (88 Lbs.) each while stirring with an electrical agitator. The solution will clear in a couple of hours, which means the sugar is completely dissolved. This gives 102 liter (27 US gallon) of 60% sugar syrup, 1.5 parts sugar to 1 part water by weight. Now I add citric acid, a white powder used in wine making, till a pH of 3.5 has been reached. This has to be done in stages, all the while stirring the solution. In the past I have tried other substances to prevent fermentation but with variable success. With citric acid the syrup does not show any signs of fermentation, even after being stored for 9 months. The syrup is filled off in 2 liter (0.53 US gallon) pop bottles, so I have measured quantities of syrup available all season long, which are easy to handle. My question is, does anybody know of any adverse effect of citric acid to the bees? I have not seen any, but that does not mean a whole lot. Plowing through my literature and the Internet did not give me any answer. Lambert van der Veen North shore of Lake Erie Canada :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:20:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Honey Molasses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think this is getting a little blown out of proportion. Can we end > this, > please ? ! There are always topics that some do not care to read, but, if we stiffled them all, there would be no list. Pretty much anything goes here, except metatopics, i.e. discussing the list, its management etc. (like we are now), so, if you don't care to read this thread, instructions to avoid it in future are at the end of this message, so skip on down there now, if you like. --- IMO, this is not at all blown out of proportion. Our name is being used, but, apparently, not our product, and that is the most serious problem beekeepers face, since honey adulteration, honey denaturing, and misuse of the word, honey, result in beekeeper poverty, and a subsequent lack of resources to manage other problems, like mites. As the original message in this thread pointed out, the current situation is the end result of inaction by generations of beekeepers who did not think the word 'honey' and a strong definition of honey was worth defending. Now, North American beekeepers are unable to survive, largely because low-cost, manufactured sweetners have been able to ride in and displace us, all pretending to be honey. I notice, however, that somehow the focus has shifted to 'foreign' honey, and away from the real culprits, our own importers and manufacturers who are behind the cheapening of honey and substitution for honey in food products which, nonetheless, continue to use the word. These interests are a bit tougher to take on than peasants in distant countries who happen to share our interest in bees and also want to sell their products on a fair, open market, so what money and indignation we manage to muster goes to fighting the other beekeepers worldwide, rather than taking on governments and corportations who are IMO the real cause of the problem. IMPOV, that the very foxes who are denaturing our products and prostituting our word, honey, appear, to a considerable extent, to be in charge of the NHB henhouse, does not help. --- Most email reading software has a delete button, and easy ways to set up rules to delete email on the mail server, without even downloading it. Subject lines or even words in the text (like my name) can be used to invoke a rule and invisibly and automatically eliminate email that emanates from me or -- even quotes me by name. Of course such a rule would eliminate Dick Allen's contributions also. Oh, well. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:50:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan Kerrigan Subject: Decoding Bees' Wild Waggle Dances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just thought I'd point everyone to the article running on Wired's web site regarding bees dancing to communicate the location food source: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,67494,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_8 Dan Kerrigan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 19:05:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey mislabelling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No doubt the retail market is the place to sell at a profit. Direct to the consumer you can give your sales pitch! On the shelf your label has to do the job (along with price). George said: I was in the Maple Syrup business. I marketed my syrup to tourists through specialty stores in smaller containers (1/10th gallon) and capitalized heavily on words like "pure" and "natural" and "local", attractive packaging, etc.. Foreign honey uses "pure" & "natural" and even "local" with a few packers. Many people think real Maple syrup is the fructose "Maple flavored"crap sold in stores! The flavor of real maple syrup is hard to beat. I treat myself whenever I can find the real maple syrup! Even grade B dark is better than the fructose flavored syrup. Sadly there is a movement on to replace honey with a fructose flavored imitation honey. Will real honey be pushed to the side for a fructosed based cheap product as was the case with real Maple syrup? Can we learn from the Maple Syrup history? George said: Targeting a niche market made my small syrup operation profitable, at the expense of labor-intensive marketing activities. George is so right. A niche market is the answer to sustainability for the small sideliner. George said: I've got 5 hives, not 2000. George understands the problem for the larger producer. All larger beekeepers ask for is understanding. At this point in my life I am not a large beekeeper by U.S. standards but still on a commercial beekeeper level. So I at times try to provide insight into the very secret world of the commercial beekeeper with my posts and articles. To sum things up those million hives which provide the pollination for almonds in California are used to produce honey the rest of the season . I know of few commercial beekeepers which can survive on pollination fees alone. The honey from those hives needs sold. Many times at below the cost of production. I have sold a bunch of bulk honey in drums below the cost of production. If close to the cost of production (five to ten cents a pound) then not a big deal if you can make up the difference in retail sales or pollination fees. A BIG deal if all you do is produce bulk honey. You have to go to your savings, talk to your banker to stay in business or perhaps sell some bees or equipment. The "punch" line is if real honey is replaced with a fructose based crap or packers refuse to buy U.S. honey at any price then many commercial beekeepers are going to shut down just like they were doing before the honey price hike. As I posted on BEE-L four commercial beekeepers closed their doors in Missouri the year before honey prices skyrocketed. The sign on the door of the Osage Honey Farm in Sibley, Missouri (est. 1955 running 2,000 hives) read. "We are closing our doors as we can no longer compete with the low price of foreign honey" I have got friends which produced Maple syrup in Michigan. They used to put in the long hours, cut the huge number of cords of wood to fire the boiler and hauled the pails from the trees. All after an eight hour work day at an automobile plant in Lansing. Even with a love of the project the project was dropped because was not sustainable and lack of interest in the pure maple syrup product. I used to trade honey for real maple syrup but now the boiler sits idle and the trees are not tapped. The huge warehouse of Osage honey sits locked and idle (was toured by ABF members attending the ABF convention in 1993.) I do not expect Osage Honey to ever open its doors again or my friends to tap their trees. I doubt our nations factories closed due to foreign competition will ever reopen. We can buy our goods overseas and our Maple syrup & honey. However when the large commercial beekeeper doing pollination closes his doors then our nations pollination needs are not going to get done. I have been busy trying to import pollination (my articles in April & May ABJ). Imports might help but can NEVER replace our U.S. beekeepers. The numbers of commercial beekeepers drops every year and has been for over fifty years. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::