From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:36:29 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on industrial X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.9 required=2.4 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,AWL, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP,SPF_HELO_PASS,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.1.8 X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1C048895 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEFvLQ013111 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0505C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 93719 Lines: 2039 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:13:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Fw: Honey Molasses????????????? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I believe that Tony Roma's response that "honey molasses" is a "refined > honey" is a complete and accurate answer from their point of view, and > that > they are in compliance with the USDA ingredient labeling requirements. I'm curious, now, what the requirements are. If someone makes up a name, or registers a product, does that immediately make that a legitimate ingredient for another product's ingredient listing? Example: I decided that slumgum -- a fairly disgusting and normally discarded byproduct of wax melting -- is inaptly named, and rename it and market it as "Honey Molasses". Does that imediately make it "Honey molasses"? Or is it still properly considered slumgum? Can I use either or both on a food ingredient label? Is there no lexicon of allowable ingredients? We were discussing GRAS (Generally Regarded As Safe) ingredients some time back. How does all this relate? And... Why is there no ingredients list on alcoholic beverages? Or is there some places? allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:27:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Honey Molasses] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit E. Whalen-Pedersen wrote: > Dear Bee-L Subscribers, > > I think this is getting a little blown out of proportion. Can we end > this, > please ? ! Welcome to the BeeL. Topics like this are generally blown out of proportion and follow specific lives. First, everyone is on topic. Next some rabbit trails develop and occasionally spin off into new topics and subject lines. Usually, however, they retain the original subject line and no one has any idea what the original post was about. But we comment anyway. Then (where we are now) someone requests we get back on topic or stop the thread. They operate as the conscience of the Internet, something difficult to find. Usually the concern is valid, but occasionally it is only because their ox is being gored. and, as a member of Peta, want to save it. Things calm down for a day or so, but then someone comes back from vacation, sees the threads, and an overwhelming urge to respond drives them to post and, fortunately, for all of our enjoyment, it starts anew. Posted as I sit enjoying the aroma of Honey Molasses drifting from my hives. Intoxicating. Bill Truesdell (supplier of Honey Molasses to only the finest restaurants) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:20:35 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Fw: Honey Molasses????????????? In-Reply-To: <014401c557df$147320a0$b47ba8c0@Pegasus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I'm curious, now, what the requirements are. If someone makes up a name, or registers a >product, does that immediately make that a legitimate ingredient for another product's >ingredient listing? The "Labeling & Consumer Protection Staff" of the "Food Safety and Inspection Service" of the USDA has PAGES AND PAGES of labelling requirements. Go to http://www.fsis.usda.gov/about/labeling_&_consumer_protection/index.asp and knock yourself out figuring out labelling requirements. The short answer to your question is NO IT DOES NOT! And yes, that smell of "honey molasses" wafting out of the hives in my backyard certainly is intoxicating...I've got chickens passed out just a few feet away.... ;-) Janet A. Katz :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 04:53:25 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Laying Worker(s) In-Reply-To: <4284E378.3040401@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have some questions regarding laying workers that I can't seem to find answers to, thought I'd try here.... 1. Can there be more than one laying worker in a hive? 2. Does a laying worker produce the pheremones that a laying queen does? Does the hive think there's a queen present? 3. Does a laying worker's behaviour mimic a queen, such as the tendency to scoot to the dark side of the frame? 4. Does she still forage? 5. How long will she live? Normal foraging worker life or longer because she mayh not be foraging? I've read conflicting remedies for a wive with a laying worker, what is the most effective - can the hive be saved, is it hopeless or a lot of effort with marginal results? Thanks, Howard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:11:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Ireland Subject: Re: Laying Worker(s) In-Reply-To: <200505161453.j4GErtSM022792@smtp.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >1. Can there be more than one laying worker in a hive? Yes >2. Does a laying worker produce the pheremones that a laying queen does? >Does the hive think there's a queen present? Yes >3. Does a laying worker's behaviour mimic a queen, such as the tendency to >scoot to the dark side of the frame? No idea. >4. Does she still forage? Maybe, no idea. >5. How long will she live? Normal foraging worker life or longer because >she mayh not be foraging? > Must be awhile or maybe she just gets replaced by other laying workers as the older ones die off. Because you can offer frames of brood for them to raise a queen (which they won't do because they don't realize they need one) and the drone laying can go on much longer than 6 weeks. >I've read conflicting remedies for a wive with a laying worker, what is the >most effective - can the hive be saved, is it hopeless or a lot of effort >with marginal >results? What has worked well for me is to place a screen on top of a strong hive with a young queen (remove any honey supers). Then place the queenless, laying worker hive on top of the screen. The bees in the top box can't leave the top hive and forage and so they don't lose their orientation to the original hive site. They can however be fed through the screen and obtain the queen pheromone that way. They will kill or maybe suppress activity of the laying workers. After 5 days I remove the top hive back to its original location and provide a queen 24 hours later. They usually accept it well and their eagerness can be assessed by the degree of queenless activity they display (roaring/fanning). This method is no different than the traditional method used in combining hives to eliminate laying workers except that it maintains 2 separate hives when you are done. Hope this helps. James Ireland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:31:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Laying Worker(s) remedy I've had little to no success in requeening a laying worker hive. I would reccomend dumping the bees out on the ground in a bee yard and re-using the equipment. The exception would be if you could find and kill the laying wokrer but that is not very easy to accomplish. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:34:43 +0200 Reply-To: Paul Collett Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Collett Organization: Rhodes University Subject: Re: Laying Worker(s) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Howard I work with A.m. capensis honeybees, and can only answer regarding these. > 1. Can there be more than one laying worker in a hive? Yes > 2. Does a laying worker produce the pheremones that a laying queen does? > Does the hive think there's a queen present? Yes, but I am not sure if the hive thinks the queen is present. Usually, there is a contest between laying workers derived from different patrilines. > 3. Does a laying worker's behaviour mimic a queen, such as the tendency to > scoot to the dark side of the frame? IMHO - No, I have never observed them being particularly skittish. > 4. Does she still forage? Eventually, laying workers become so derived that they do not forage. Developed ovaries also prevent this. Hence the term "social parasite" -Allsopp 2004 > 5. How long will she live? Normal foraging worker life or longer because > she mayh not be foraging? From what I understand, they may live longer, but not as long as a queen. Anybody else answer that one? > > I've read conflicting remedies for a wive with a laying worker, what is > the most effective - can the hive be saved, is it hopeless or a lot of > effort with marginal > results? If one leaves the hive to be, the laying worker sometimes produces a pretty good queen. Hope I have helped Paul Collett Rhodes University South Africa :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:03:24 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Laying Worker(s) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Howard: When a hive becomes queenless for any reason, the bees then produce laying workers. As you know, queens are fed "royal Jelly" and actually mature in less number of days than the workers. When there is no queen, the otherwise worker larva are fed to make them lay. This gives the hive some sense of security, but as I understand it, these bees are sterile. The beekeeper, on noting this phenomenon, needs to requeen the colony promptly. Laying workers do not forage. I am not sure just how many laying workers may be present, but surely quite a few. Others may have answers to your other questions. EDW EDW----- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:08:48 -0400 Reply-To: bees2@oldmoose.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glen Glater Subject: Beekeeping article Beekeeping taking off in Tokyo http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200505070133.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:13:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Subject: RFD TV MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Just a quick FYI. Dr. Keith Deleplane(sp) has a half hour program called "BEES" on RFD TV. I ran across it by accident this afternoon. It is on Monday afternoon at 4:00 PM as well and repeted several times throughout the week. RFD TV is a satellite network available through DISH an Direct TV. The program is pretty basic right now. Today was hiving packages. Coleene :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:48:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Honey Baked Ham (tm) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of all the topics discussed here, I think that the loss of significance for the word "honey" has the most far-reaching implications for every beekeeper. Guarding the sanctity of this word should be one of the chief tasks of organizations like the National Honey Board. Apparently this is not the case. Perhaps the most egregious misuse of the word "honey" is in the product Honey Baked Ham, which is a trademarked term for a product marketed heavily in the US. See http://www.honeybakedonline.com/HBOnline but don't expect to find any real information there, as it's a marketing site referencing "secret recipes and trusted customer relationships". I have not, with my own eyes, seen the ingredient list for this product. It is my understanding that no honey is used in its preparation. So here we have a slightly different situation, assuming that honey is not included in the ingredient list. Literally, they're not lying to the consumer, but it would seem a reasonable expectation that honey would be used in a product named "Honey Baked Ham". I feel helpless as an individual when I see this misuse of the term "honey" for this product, "Honey Nut Cherrios", and the ribs we've been discussing. It's a shame that our national organizations don't feel the need to protect our primary product name. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:19:47 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Honey Baked Ham (tm) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT May be slightly off topic, but please let this one through....... Actually, we beekeepers do not have a copyright on the word "honey", nice as that may sound at first hearing. However, the language we use has many variations of meanings for the same word, hence so many dictionaries!! Would you ban the endearment "honey" especially at this time of year, when we are told where "a young man's fancy (lightly) turns"?? VBG EDW :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:32:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Almer's Apiary Subject: Re: RFD TV Comments: cc: RFDPATRICK@aol.com In-Reply-To: <000701c55a6c$f19e0500$bcac0740@coleene8roq280> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In reference to Coleene's post regarding RFD TV). As most know, RFD TV (http://www.rfd-tv.com/) is a satellite network that airs agriculture related programming. They are now airing Dr Keith Deleplane's entire video series "A Year in The Life of an Apiary - Honeybees and Beekeeping". I was involved in getting RFD TV and the University of Georgia together to air this series. RFD TV (Patrick Gottsch)is interested in airing more beekeeping related programming. RFD TV is presently working with "The National Honey Board" to achieve that end. While the NHB is a good group for them to work with, it is my opinion that there might be other organizations that are better since the NHB is primarily a honey marketing organization. I would like others input as to what organization(s) they could be working with to promote beekeeping in general and or to obtain beekeeping related programming. Direct communications is welcomed. Bob Fanning President Madison County Beekeepers Association Huntsville AL USA 35802 K4vb@knology.net www.alabees.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:41:03 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Honey Baked Ham (tm) In-Reply-To: <000801c55af3$e8a1d580$9216de18@apartment> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I prefer to see the glass as half full rather than half empty. The more publicity HONEY gets, the better for me. I don't see anything negative in HoneyBaked ham's use of the word honey. According to the company: Dear Janet, Thank you for your email. The glaze contains honey powder made from natural honey. Please let us know if we can assist you further. Regards, Jane Purser Customer Service 800-367-7720 They're using a form of honey...fine by me. I'm not going to think negatively of someone because they won't glaze their hams themselves! Janet A. Katz :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:42:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Re: Honey Baked Ham (tm) In-Reply-To: <000801c55af3$e8a1d580$9216de18@apartment> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually, we beekeepers do not have a copyright on the word "honey", > nice > as that may sound at first hearing. There is a vast difference between the term "copyright" and "trademark". I believe that the national organization that promotes milk, and the national organization that promotes beef, are reasonably protective of the words "milk" and "beef". If I raised cattle, I would be upset if someone marketed a product with "beef" in the name which contained not a trace of beef. I don't think that it is unreasonable for honey producers to be similarly protective. It's not a black-and-white issue. If someone wants to promote a honey sauce in which the primary ingredient is not honey, I don't see a problem with that. But if they use the word "honey" in their product description, the product should contain honey. The liquid in the bottle of "honey" that I buy should not be colored corn syrup. I am ignorant on the complex rules regarding labeling. But if, as reported to me, "Honey Baked Ham" contains not a trace of honey, that's over my threshold of trying to deceive the public. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:01:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Honey Baked Ham (tm) In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Eunice Wonnacott wrote: ... we beekeepers do not have a copyright on the word "honey" ... The relevant principle is not based on copyright but is closer to trademark law. Trademarks are bounded by the principle of "least confusion". You can use the same word, title, company name, etc as long as there are geographic, industry or other barriers which will act to limit the consumer's confusion. If you run Wonnacott's Apiary in Florida, you can't use trademark protection to stop me from opening a Wonnacott's Bicycle Shop in Maine. We have no grounds to complain about "honey" when it is used in the romantic sense because no one is going to mistake my wife for a food product. We do have grounds to complain when "honey" is used to falsely imply the use of our bee-based food product. (And to preempt the strict legal interpretation, no, we can't get the word "honey" trademarked. It is a generic term with a long-standing history of open use. However, as the Dairy Board and others have shown, it is a legal principle that can be applied in a general fashion.) Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:03:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Honey Baked Ham (tm) IMO honey becomes a "product" once its heavily blended, cooked beyond 100F, dried into a powder form, diluted down with corn syrup or other additives. As long as capitalism thrives we will always have folks tinkering with honey as an ingredient to their "product:" and trying to cash in on the wholesome image of honey. As I mentioned in an ealier post IMO the more these activites continue the more the market for raw unblended pure honey increases in value. I beleive that this is especialy true as honey production becomes more industrialized. The small artisan honey producers are then the stewards of the pure honey industry and with proper packaging and marketing (not a plastic honey bear) can set any price they want iregardless of the packing house price. I find that the influx of immigrants into the USA is providing the current and future customer base for a pure raw product because in most other countries around the world honey is seen as an important foodstuff. People who shop at the IGA/Cub foods/walmart/big box stores are interested in price and not quality. I do not ever expect to see a high quality honey sold in that type of venue. My opinion is forget about it and use the market to your advantage by selling your honey in the most pure form you can at the highest price possible. I feel that the opportunities are unlimited and I welcome the differentiation that the honey "products" bring to the shelf and market place. The customers I serve have a good BS detector when it comes to food and are not easilly fooled by a "product" claim. Why would we think that the honey industry as represented by the national honey board would protect us from the kinds of rampant misrepresentation that persists in all segments of the food industry? Real unadulterated pure food is getting more and more scarce and expensive. The stuff in most groceries stores is as phony as the chinese honey that sits on the shelf . Get used to it because corporate america runs this country and the world for that matter! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:01:36 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Honey Baked Ham (tm) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT One of the best tasting honeys I have ever encountered, was on a very narrow road in the "woods" in North East Texas (The Big Thicket). Around a bend in the road, we came upon a small clearing, with a very small house and a shed. At roadside was a simple stand with about half a dozen quart sized Mason Jars, filled with honey. The hand lettered rough board sign said simply: Raw Honey For Sale. We bought two of these, one of which I had no difficulty carrying home to Canada. A truly memorable experience. EDW PS The Maple Syrup producers in Vermont and other northern states, have a similar problem. I seem to remember that there are some very specific rules about labelling, when any product is no longer Pure Maple Syrup. Some of their labels actually include a brief statement of the regulations. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:57:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Susan Nielsen Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Honey Baked Ham (tm) In-Reply-To: <7a31a6b5c6a1febfc97c0fbb904c0173@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 17 May 2005, Steve Bonine wrote: > If I raised cattle, I would > be upset if someone marketed a product with "beef" in the name which > contained not a trace of beef. Dang. There goes the vegan market for my beefsteak tomato crop. Susan -- Susan Nielsen | "Every year, back comes Spring, with nasty snielsen@orednet.org | little birds yapping their fool heads off | and the ground all mucked up with plants." | --Dorothy Parker :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:44:01 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Honey Baked Ham (tm) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT At last, someone with some sense of humor!! EDW > > Dang. There goes the vegan market for my beefsteak tomato crop. > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:48:49 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: RFD TV MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I suggest The Canadian Honey Council. EDW :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:17:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Tony Roma contradicts previous response In-Reply-To: <000c01c55b11$103e09c0$9216de18@apartment> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps this horse is dead, but I wanted to pass along the response that I received to my inquiry to Tony Roma regarding the use of "honey molasses" in their ingredients list. The response in its entirety, all seven words, is: it is honey, molasses two different things This would bolster the "missing comma" theory, or perhaps the theory that they don't really know or care. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:19:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bee mites suppress bee immunity, open door for viruses and bacter ia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Forwarded to me from Kim Flottum: Bee mites suppress bee immunity, open door for viruses and bacteria A non-native bee mite is causing the dramatic and sudden collapse of bee colonies across the country, but Penn State researchers believe they have found the combination of factors that triggers colony deaths which includes suppression of the bee immune system by the mites. The Varroa destructor mite is a honey bee parasite that feeds much like a tick on the body of a bee. The mites are about the size of a pin head, dark brown in color and visible on close inspection. This bee mite probably arose in the Eastern or Chinese Honey Bee population and hopped over to the United States in 1987. They quickly infested western or European honey bees. One sign of infection is the presence of bees with deformed wings. Also, sometimes seemingly healthy colonies become ill and the complete hive collapses in about two weeks. "The native Chinese bees do not have the same problems," says Dr. Xiaolong Yang, post doctoral researcher in entomology and plant pathology, who raised bees in China. "I do not recall seeing deformed wing bees in the Chinese bee. Chinese honey bees have grooming behavior which can remove the mites from the bees. They get rid of the mites." While researchers know that the Varroa mite is behind the death of bee colonies, the mechanism causing the deaths is still unknown. Yang and Dr. Diana L. Cox-Foster, Penn State professor of entomology, now believe that a combination of bee mites, deformed wing virus and bacteria is causing the problems occurring in hives across the country. "Once one mite begins to feed on a developing bee, all the subsequent mites will use the same feeding location," says Cox-Foster "Yang has seen as many as 11 adult mites feeding off of one bee. Other researchers have shown that both harmful and harmless bacteria may infect the feeding location." Deformed wing virus is endemic among honey bees in the U.S., although when the European bees became historically infested with this virus, is unknown. However, simply having deformed wing virus does not cause bees to emerge from the pupa state with deformed wings, nor does it cause colony deaths. "A group of Japanese researchers found that a virus that is 99 percent the same as deformed wing, appears in in the brains of aggressive guard bees," says Cox-Foster. "Guard bees that are aggressive better protect the hive, so there may be some positive effect in this virus that allows it to persist in a colony." The combination of bee mite infestation and deformed wing virus does cause deformed wings in about a quarter of the emerging bees. This, however, does not lead to sudden hive collapse. Something else is involved that makes bee mites so harmful to bee colonies. The Penn State researchers report their findings in today's (May 17) online version of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science. Yang and Cox-Foster looked at how bee mites affect the bee immune system. They injected heat-killed E. coli bacteria into virus-infected bees that were either infested with bee mites or mite free. The dead bacteria was used to trigger an immune response in the bees in the same way human vaccines cause our bodies to produce an immune response. They checked the bees for production of chemicals that disinfect the honey and for other immunity related chemicals. They also measured the amount of virus in each bee. Surprisingly, they found that the virus in mite-infested bees rapidly increased to extremely high levels when the bee was exposed to the bacteria. The virus levels in mite-free bees did not change when the bee was injected with bacteria. One chemical, GOX or glucose oxidase, is put into the honey by worker bees and sterilizes the honey and all their food. If bees have mites, their production of GOX decreases. "As mites build up, we suspect that not as much GOX is found in the honey and the honey has more bacteria," says Cox-Foster. "It is likely that the combination of increased mite infestation, virus infection and bacteria is the cause of the two-week death collapse of hives." The mites suppressed other immune responses in the bees, leaving the bees and the colonies more vulnerable to infection. The bee mites transfer from adult bees to late stage larva. The virus can be transferred through many different pathways. "This system is important not only because of what the mites are doing to honey bee populations in the U.S., but because it can be used as a model system for exploring what happens to viruses in animal or human populations," says Cox-Foster. "If we view the colony as a city, then we have a variety of infection modes - queen to eggs, workers to food supply, bee to bee, and parasite to bee." The Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture supported this work. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:46:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Oh no not again... HONEY MOLASSES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It appears that we've been under the wrong impression regarding Tony Roma's sauce and the infamous "honey molasses" (see below). If there are any GOOD candidates to take to task for misleading labeling, I'm still looking! From: "Guest Relations @ Tony Roma's Famous For Ribs" To: Subject: RE: Honey Molasses Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:23:44 +0000 You recently sent an e-mail regarding our labeling on one of our bbq sauces. You mentioned “honey molasses” as an ingredient. NONE of our packaging lists this as an ingredient. There is a comma on all packages between these 2 words. We use molasses and USDA Grade A PURE HONEY in every version of our Carolina Honey’s BBQ sauce. I apologize if the string of e-mails last week was confusing. I have verified with ALL of our manufacturers – Kraft and Greystar Products this fact. We do NOT use refined honey – our chef was mistaken and this was not an appropriate response that you received. We support the use of natural honey, and have even partnered with the National Honey Board in the past. I hope this clears up any confusion. Marc Buehler VP - Marketing Tony Roma's marcb@romacorp.com www.tonyromas.com (214) 343-7842 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:48:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Ireland Subject: General question about honey flow In-Reply-To: <051820052046.9399.428BA9AA00028A30000024B7216037631699019D0C9C079B9D9A0C@att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Does anyone know the typical dates for the honey flow(s) in central Arkansas? I am having a lot of trouble getting anything more than "about May." I know we are in the middle of a good flow now. But I have no idea how long to expect it to last or if we actually get another one later in the year. Thank you, I know this email will affect very few people. James :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:21:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harold Rogers Subject: article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if Bob Harrison would give us an update on the Australian bee imports or maybe have to wait till next ABJ? So far the articles have been very interesting and informative. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 00:26:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Harold asks: I wonder if Bob Harrison would give us an update on the Australian bee imports or maybe have to wait till next ABJ? I have agreed to two articles upcoming on the Australian import for ABJ. An update in fall and next spring. Normal time for an article for the magazine to be in print is three months but a faster time can be done if the editor knows for sure the article is coming and the appprox. size so the correct amount of space can be made available in the desired issue. Such was the case with the Australian articles. Harold said: So far the articles have been very interesting and informative. Thanks! I also thank the many beekeepers which sent emails saying they liked the articles . However in all honesty I had two people which did not care for the articles. One changed his mind after we discussed the situation by email and the other was Jim Fischer (Bee-L & Beesource.com) and I could not change his mind. To Jim & those which spread "doom & Gloom" regarding all the problems which the import will bring with it I say simply. Terry Brown has been shipping around thirty pallets of 384 packages into Canada for decades and the only very minor problem has been chalkbrood. I have already seen that a tracheal & varroa mite free package is an asset . Jim Fischer has a right to his opinion as do we all but ten years from now I am going to post on BEE-L and say. "Jim are you ready to admit none of those things happened you warned us about!" The upcoming articles will be in detail ,with pictures and varroa counts unlike the crude update below. An short update would be the Australian hives remain untreated with heavy varroa ADDED pressure. The Australians went through the almond pollination with no signs of varroa infestation but they arrived varroa free unlike our U.S. sold packages these days.. My partner and I moved most into apple pollination which lasted about three weeks of heavy brood buildup. We have made at least one split from each hive. Bascially these bees have been on pollination or been fed since they arrived to test buildup and varroa . Consider 14 weeks of brooding (without treatment) and going now into a 6-8 week clover flow before varroa testing and treatment if needed.. Some were moved onto a Black Locust flow a couple weeks ago. The others are in the process of being moved onto clover fields. Some hives ( less than 10%) are showing some bees with deformed wings but no signs of PMS. We are not seeing signs of chalkbrood now. I did find three out of 150 which light chalkbrood in April. So far the Australian bees have performed exactly as expected. Making the splits dropped some varroa load ( removing frames of brood with varroa in cells) but having been brooding up all spring has added varroa pressure plus when not on pollination they have been a large holding yard with hives with a high level of varroa. I expect serious varroa issues in late summer but time will tell. WE ARE NOT BABYING THESE BEES! If you are reading this post Dann Purvis we shipped the Australian queens yesterday for you to maintain, test and incorporate into the Purvis Brothers line if you see fit. Should arrive this morning. Let me know if you have problems with the shipment! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. Terry Brown is coming to the U.S. before long to look at these bees and get our thoughts. I am bound by a non disclosure agreement not to speak about what we are discussing but what we are working on would in my opinion be a step in the right direction for our industry. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 03:53:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys From: josh jaros Subject: Re: Laying Worker(s) In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello All, When I did commercial work, we shook all the bees out of a laying worker hive about 20 feet away and then put it back together and if it had enough bees we plopped in some brood and a caged queen for the bees to release. I was told the laying worker(s) wouldn't be able to find their way back to the hive. Within minutes the bees returned and as far as I remember the queens took when I returned days later. If we didn't do this, usually the queens were not accepted. Josh Jaros __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:59:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Paul D. Law (aka Dennis)" Subject: combination of bee mites, deformed wing virus and bacteria is causing the proble MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/space/beeswipedoutbycascadeofdeadlyevents :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:29:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: packages in almonds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison mentioned that the Australian packages did almond pollination. Was brood added to these colonies? How did the almond growers feel about renting newly installed packages? Changing the subject - could someone explain how one sets up a the front to back straps on a semi? I have seen some photos but not the details. Surely there isn't a 60 foot strap used? Peter > The Australians went through the almond pollination with no signs of varroa > infestation but they arrived varroa free unlike our U.S. sold packages these > days.. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 06:41:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: johnnynkristin Subject: Laying Worker(s) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi to all! I would like to add to what Josh said about laying workers, or a queen that has gone drone layer. I have always done exactly what Josh explained but I also swap places with a strong hive in the yard. If there is any possibility of the laying worker flying back into the old hive it is eliminated. The queen and her workers will not allow the laying worker to enter and start laying. I have had good results with this process. Johnny Cox Honey From The Rock Arizona :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:23:18 -0400 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Organization: Bedford Advanced Technology Test Lab Effort Subject: Re: article > Jim Fischer has a right to his opinion as do we all but ten years from now I > am going to post on BEE-L and say. "Jim are you ready to admit none of those > things happened you warned us about!" When the Director of the USDA Agricultural Research Service files a "public comment" objecting to the lack of adequate biosecurity controls in the USDA APHIS import rules, this makes it much more than mere "opinion". When he goes on to warn about Tropilaelaps, Euvarroa mites, and Thai sacbrood virus, it becomes clear that I am not alone in voicing these concerns. It becomes the official position of one of the premier bee research organizations on the planet, the best brains in the business. It is the official stance of the scientific arm of the USDA itself, well-researched, and backed by hard facts. So, those who import bees in this interim period when the US has no mechanisms in place being used by other countries (port-of-entry inspections, for one) are taking a gamble that puts everyone "at risk". I am surprised that the beekeeping community as a whole tolerates any small group taking such a gamble, externalizing their risk upon the entire industry for their own personal profit. The introduction of exotic invasive pests and diseases as a result of increased international trade in live bees is not even a "risk", it is a statistical certainty. This has happened more than once before, even when the only "imports" were a tiny number of legitimate scientific importations or smuggling incidents. I have never been "opposed to bee imports". I am opposed to the unique lack of any tangible control mechanisms in the US process, moreso when Europe and the UK have implemented such elegant inspection systems without objections from any of the bee exporting countries. Perhaps "none of those things" will happen, as Rob hopes. So, to quote Clint Eastwood from "Dirty Harry": "You've got to ask yourself one question - 'Do I feel lucky?'" jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:56:39 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: richard Subject: Queen bees rearing sets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From Richard Baker Richardhoney@xtra.co.nz I am looking at buying a Queen Rearing set=20 If there is won for sale in New Zealand . I mite look at bringing a set or two from out side N,Z,if there is not = won in New zealand to be had. If you ar out side N.Z. still let me no I will look at the price to = inport them. Thanks Richard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:14:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "adrian m. wenner" Subject: Radar studies of bee flights? Comments: cc: reute001@umn.edu, tmunz@Princeton.EDU, vadasrlv@dfw.wa.gov, tautz@biozentrum.uni-wuerzburg.de, musante@lifesci.ucsb.edu, rwthorp@ucdavis.edu, ponerine@ladyjaye.dakotacom.net, jfrancis@ngs.org, rosinbio@gmail.com, JBarthell@ucok.edu, barry@birkey.com, dickallen@gci.net, ckstarr99@hotmail.com, reinhard@rsbs.anu.edu.au, phwells@earthlink.net, bw@ibra.org.uk, kim@beeculture.com, PayneT@missouri.edu, wendyg@pelicancrossing.net, Laszlo.Pentek@dc.gov, JoTraynor@aol.com, rosinbio@gmail.com, JBTHC@aol.com, ttyler@ravenpack.com, robtm@xtra.co.nz, harrington-wells@utulsa.edu, ecrist@vt.edu, pacificlmr@hotmail.com, kuris@lifesci.ucsb.edu, crs@west.net, eauairsols@YAHOO.COM, allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM, dickallen@gci.net, allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM, gary.greenberg@wichita.edu, dgnpune@yahoo.co.in, c.kennedy@saint-thomas.net, Julian.ODea@affa.gov.au, dgnpune@yahoo.co.in, charles@okstate.edu, mea@onthefarm.com, DonovanB@CROP.CRI.NZ, ckstarr99@hotmail.com, vkleunen@uwinst.unizh.ch, tedgerrard@onetel.com, hechinge@lifesci.ucsb.edu, WCaire@ucok.edu, scheftj@cox.net, bayer@sbceo.org, ABJ@dadant.com, speedybee@bellsouth.net, hubbard@lifesci.ucsb.edu, j_richar@lifesci.ucsb.edu, charcar@iland.net, massaro@fuzzy.ucsc.edu, beeactor2001@YAHOO.COM, mattoni@ucla.edu, guerrini@history.ucsb.edu, dmv@pd3.coj.net, GImasterBK@aol.com, LJConnor@aol.com, Robert.Chlebo@uniag.sk, Gerard.Arnold@pge.cnrs-gif.fr, ljfries@west.net, phs@psych.purdue.edu, Beebuzzboys@aol.com, lctony@ust.hk, esmith06@uoguelph.ca, JaishaHoo@aol.com, DPerlman@sfchronicle.com In-Reply-To: <4282C0B3.8030304@mts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Last week Peter Dillon directed our attention to the following press item: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4536127.stm I responded a week ago, in reference to the original "letter" about radar tracking of bees that appeared in the journal Nature. I posted the following note on BEE-L: "I have studied the original Nature article (upon which the BBC article was based) and will provide a considered response for BEE-L subscribers in due time. The claims the authors made far exceeded the experimental results they obtained." Tracking recruited bees with radar to study their flight paths after leaving the hive is a noble goal, provided the bees have not been disturbed. Also, the experimenters should do so only if they don't have a vested interest in the outcome; that is, that they execute a true test of the language hypothesis. The authors failed on both counts. In the first few words of their report they used the phrase, "the dance language," instead of more objective phrases, such as: "the waggle dance," or "the dance maneuver." It became clear soon thereafter in the paper that they start with an assumption of language and then try to prove it. First, some background. The researchers had some bees trained to fly out to a feeding station and saw them later dance. They followed a bee that attended such a dance, caught it as it left the hive, attached a transponder onto its body, released it, and then followed the path of that bee with radar. To conduct their study they embraced a number of assumptions: 1) That a bee attending a dancer has the neurological/physiological equipment to obtain abstract physical information from another bee. 2) That such a particular bee leaving a dancer "intends" to travel to the "target" site. 3) The capture of a bee and fastening a transponder onto it doesn't interfere with its "programmed" behavior. 4) The released bee doesn't execute an escape flight behavior, perhaps toward some point on the distant horizon. 5) That they worked in an "odor free" area (odor free to bees) for their experiments. 6) That experimental bees have a route memory of the feeding station relative to the hive? From the account published, it appears that some critical controls were missing, including: 1) Data on flight paths of bees that had been similarly treated but had not attended a dancer. 2) Data on flight paths of departing bees that had attended a dancer that had visited food located in a different direction. That is, the reasoning seems to be that, if the escaping bees fly off in the "right" direction (the only direction arranged for), then they have used their language. In fact, the Rothamsted group wrote in October of 2003: "We have used harmonic radar to measure the flight trajectories of bees recruited after observing the waggle dance, this has enabled us to settle (hopefully once and for all) this controversy in favour of Von Frisch." What if, instead of continuing some sort of undefined programmed behavior, all released bees had just executed an escape flight toward some distant point on the horizon? (Translocating some other bees before releasing them, as they did, then would not result in any noticeable difference in flight behavior.) All of the above reminds me of a 1971 statement by Nobel Laureate Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (biochemistry): "If you know in advance what you are going to do, or even to find there, then it is not research at all: then it is only a kind of honorable occupation..." What do beekeepers think? What percentage of them accept the assumption that one can grab a bee, attach something to its body, release it, and then expect it to go on its way as if nothing had happened? In my experience, such a bee would fly an escape path and would not likely continue a previously "programmed" behavior. Those interested in what recruited bees normally might do after leaving the hive can access: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/az1991.htm That publication of ours contains several quotations by von Frisch that stand in sharp contrast to the observations and claims made in this latest Nature letter. Some other questions might have occurred by now to other beekeepers and bee researchers: 1) What about the very small sample size -- can the behavior of 19 disturbed bees undermine the results obtained from results obtained from hundreds of unrestrained bees in double controlled and strong inference experiments? (And, note, only two bees showed up near the target station after some unspecified time delay.) 2) What about the behavior of the many other bees they must have experimented upon. Surely they didn't just gather data from two dozen bees and then quit when they had supportive evidence. As is usual in such a case, some reporters contacted me for my impressions. David Perlman of the San Francisco Chronicle recognized that I had not had time to study the publication and came out with a fairly accurate assessment in his article. Other reporters would not accept my explanation that I would need a few days to study the original publication, with a rather common comment: "I have a deadline to meet." No, I don't think that the behavior of 19 bees will resolve this controversy, one that has run now for more than three decades. Nor will beekeepers benefit from the claims made. They can go back to worrying about varroa mites, small hive beetles, and other real problems with, hopefully, some real solutions in the near future. (Just think how much money and time was spent on this supposedly final solution to the bee language controversy! Wouldn't that time and effort have been better spent on breeding a varroa resistant bee?) Adrian -- Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* * "...the intensity of the conviction that a hypothesis is true has * no bearing on whether it is true or not." * * Peter Medawar (1979) ******************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:44:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Idea Comments: To: beefarmgfc@yahoo.com Comments: cc: honeylady60@yahoo.com, booksnbees@citynet.net, ALIMBEES@msn.com, geniebee@juno.com, drectenwald@earthlink.com, j.rectenwald@earthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Has anyone you know of got a web camera on a beehive? I've not seen one yet. Seen webcams Edinburgh City Webcam Scotland :: Camvista.com Nessie on the Net! Live Cam - the Highlands, Loch Ness, Scotland. Lock Ness Charleston Ballpark webcam Charleston Daily Mail Webcam Mount St. Helens VolcanoCam - Mount St. Helens National Volcanic Monument and someone had on a hummingbird feeder. But no bee hive. I think it would promote honey bees if WV had a bee web cam. Russ Dean :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:08:13 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric van der Vlist Subject: Re: Idea In-Reply-To: <19a.343f2f15.2fbeb716@wmconnect.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Russ, On jeu, 2005-05-19 at 23:44 -0400, Russ Dean wrote: > George > > Has anyone you know of got a web camera on a beehive? Better than a camera *on* a beehive, this site has installed an infrared camera *in* a beehive. This is a very small camera mounted on a robot that can be guided. The site is in French, but your favorite translator should be able to give a text good enough to be understood! http://www.ruche.com/index.html Eric > -- Lisez-moi sur XMLfr. http://xmlfr.org/index/person/eric+van+der+vlist/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric van der Vlist http://xmlfr.org http://dyomedea.com (ISO) RELAX NG ISBN:0-596-00421-4 http://oreilly.com/catalog/relax (W3C) XML Schema ISBN:0-596-00252-1 http://oreilly.com/catalog/xmlschema ------------------------------------------------------------------------ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:37:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: Radar studies of bee flights? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/20/2005 12:12:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, wenner@LIFESCI.UCSB.EDU writes: What do beekeepers think? What percentage of them accept the assumption that one can grab a bee, attach something to its body, release it, and then expect it to go on its way as if nothing had happened? In my experience, such a bee would fly an escape path and would not likely continue a previously "programmed" behavior. Those interested in what recruited bees normally might do after leaving the hive can access: I saw this study (or one like it) on one of the science channels. The researchers attached the transponders to bumble bees. The device is similar to one I use in a termite baiting system. Considering that it contains 1) a coil to charge the unit from the base unit, 2) a microprocessor to identify itself from other transponders, and 3) a device to transmit the information back to the base unit, it has a lot of hardware contained in a little package. The transponders I use resemble hockey pucks and are about 1" across. The ones I saw in the study are tiny, but not small enough to be carried by honey bees. When these units can be further reduced it the weight of about drop of paint, I don't believe the bees would have too much of an issue with them. Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:42:38 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Idea In-Reply-To: <19a.343f2f15.2fbeb716@wmconnect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Draper's Super Bee Apiaries in Pennsylvania has a web cam in a bee hive. http://draperbee.com/default.htm Janet A. Katz :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:05:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Radar studies of bee flights? In-Reply-To: <60.55eeeac5.2fbf33f2@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All of the studies referenced by Adrian and Jim use the same technology -- pioneered by Joe Riley in England. None are true radar in the strictest sense. They all use a diode on the back of the bee, an antenna, and a radio transmitter/receiver, usually mounted on a trailer. The transmitter sends out an RF signal. That supplies the 'power' to the diode. The diode 'wakes up' and sends back a beep at twice the original RF frequency. The 'radar' dish on top of a trailer plots the beeps. Joe has a couple of versions - the larger one seen on the TV clip, that was also used in an earlier paper on honey bee orientation - again in Nature. Joe has a smaller version for honey bees. Its fragile, so investigators working with honey bees have tended to opt for the larger one. The weight of that unit is close to the maximum weight that a bee can carry. Joe's units use a vertical antenna on the insect (the range of the harmonic system is affected by the orientation of the antenna relative to the receiver dish). At least one honey bee investigator chose the 'bumblebee' version of his transponder because the long antenna served as a 'handy' handle. Several years ago, we worked with Battelle Pacific Labs on a similar system. We gave it up after deciding the size and weight of our device too severely impacted the bee's behavior -- it could barely fly. I brought Joe to the states a few years ago, saw lots of his data. His bumblebee data was interesting, and it seemed that bumblebees managed to go about foraging without too much trouble. To date, most of the honey bee work talks about linear flights. You might fly in straight lines too, if you had the equivalent of the telephone pole sticking up from your back. I'm surprised that the bee can turn without falling over and out of the sky. Despite popular press claims, we (at UM) do not have a usable RF system for tracking bees. We've got pin point sized chips -- but haven't resolved the antenna problem. However, one of our collaborators used a laser to plate a foil antenna on the back of a living bee. We do have RF chips for marking hive equipment. Hope this helps explain the technology. Jerry :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:40:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Noble Subject: Re: Laying Worker(s) Regarding what Johnny Cox said: "I have always done exactly what Josh explained but I also swap places with a strong hive in the yard." Joohnny, am I correct in concluding that what you are doing by this proceedure is causing the hive with laying workers to be absorbed into the strong hive? If so then what happens to the hive that you shook the bees from since presumably bees from it would tend not go back to it while the bees from the strong hive would? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:45:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: johnnynkristin Subject: Laying Worker(s) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steve, you asked: "Am I correct in concluding that what you are doing by this procedure is causing the hive with laying workers to be absorbed into the strong hive?" Yes this is correct and since this hive already has a queen the workers will not allow laying worker(s) to enter. The bees from the hive with laying worker(s) will go to the location of the original hive and be absorbed into the newly replaced strong hive. "If so then what happens to the hive that you shook the bees from since presumably bees from it would tend not go back to it while the bees from the strong hive would?" Let me explain in depth what I do with the hive I have shaken the bees from. If you have a laying worker, the eggs she lays are unfertilized and the cells will be distorted. I simply use my hive tool to scrape the tops of the cells and kill the brood within. These combs are then put back into the hive with frames of brood (I normally take brood from the strong hive used to swap) and a caged queen. The forage bees from the strong hive will enter the new nuc and give it a field force to get started. I find this hive will build up really quickly and the strong hive will bounce back as well. Hope I have explained this clearly and not confused you. Johnny Cox Honey From The Rock Arizona :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 00:02:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Idea Comments: To: Russ Dean MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There used to Be a web cam on an observation hive at some university. I think it was usf, but I don't remember it in action. Its a good idea. Scot Mc Pherson Linux From Scratch http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/ http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 06:33:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Idea In-Reply-To: <001e01c55db9$f06040e0$1efbf704@workstation> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1D55BDD > There used to Be a web cam on an observation hive at some university. I believe that was the University of Montana. See: http://beekeeper.dbs.umt.edu/~bees/beecams.html Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 5/13/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:56:56 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Cast iron honey extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, >From someone new to our association I heard that an extractor was for sale, since it was no longer used and just taking up space. When I started asking for some more the details, the answers given were fague. I suggested the lady in question to first have a good look at the thing and ring me back with more of the details. The next day during a phonecall it became clear that it involved a two-frame cast-iron extractor and I was perplexed I might say! The statement by this lady that she couldn't even lift it up a little bit because of it's weight was for me the proof that we realy were talking about cast iron here, more so by taking in consideration that it only was a two frame model. Asking if she knew what galvanized iron was and if it could perhaps be made of that, she said that it definitely was cast iron. I wasn't aware that any such thing as a cast iron extractor ever existed! Apparently it was handpainted on the inside of the drum, to add to the surprises! Mind you, I wouldn't like to use the honey that comes from this machine.....surely, the porous cast iron must have sucked up and developed all kinds of goodies that we would normally like to keep a long way away from our honey and flakes of paint in honey do not seem so healthy either! Has anyone here ever come across a cast iron extractor before? Ron van Mierlo Sweden :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:44:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Hive paint MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This paint can be used very effectively when used on wood that is in the weather or near ground level. Many extra years of use can be gained by using it, thought it is more expensive than cheap paint. 1 quart boiled linseed oil 1 quart paint thinner 1/2 pound paraffin wax 1 gallon copper naphthenate paint Mix paint thinner and wax overnight (about 70 degrees F). The next day mix all items together. Each ingredient serves a purpose. Boiled linseed oil forms a hard coat. Paint thinner dissolves the paraffin wax that fills pores in the wood to waterproof. Copper naphthernate kills termites and preserves the wood from wood destroying molds and rots. This must be used on unpainted wood and above 50 degrees F. Can be painted after the weathering about six months. So this is not a weekend job then use project. Also you must let the wood air out before putting bees in it or supers on top. Air it out at least 60 days. More be better. Trust me on this part. 60 Days. I try to use this on new wood especially bottoms, deep bodies. Before assembling the wood parts I dip or paint the mitered joints. The life of the wood can be extended many years. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:06:30 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Cast iron honey extractor MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This sounds like a subject for some research into the item, take your good digital camera along! Too far away for me, but I's love to see pictures EDW Subject: [BEE-L] Cast iron honey extractor > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:50:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: Radar studies of bee flights? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/20/2005 12:03:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, jjbmail@SELWAY.UMT.EDU writes: We do have RF chips for marking hive equipment. Another thought. A bit of technology I'd like to see develop. There is a camera chip used in gastrointestinal medicine that is about the right size. The patient swallows the camera pill and the whole trip is recorded on video. If it could be reduced to the size of a "Tic Tac" we could record a bee's eye view of the trip and download it on her return. Powering it would be problematic. What gains that can be made in losing the long antenna would be lost in the weight of the battery or coil / capacitor. The B. E. A. M. robotics enthusiasts (people geeker than I) might have the answer with a tiny solar panel. I think the thought of a kind of cyborg bee would very much appeal to them. Dr. Mark Tilden (B.E.A.M.er, NASA, Los Alamos and strange toy inventor) designs these things. I wonder if he would be interested in this. Does anyone have his E-mail address? Jim Hock Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:51:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: article Maybe someone can explain to me why we need to import bees from outside the USA to replenish our dead outs? Perhaps I am missing some information but whats wrong with the notion that the bee industry in the USA be focusd on fixing our own problems rather then looking for a new supplier of packages and queens? For example I have been purchasing new world carniolan bees from a large west coast breeder for years. they are great bees, winter well and produce large crops. However they are highly dependent on treatment for varorra. The breeders website and bee journal ads mention little about any credible program or research they are doing to propogate mite resistant bees. Maybe what we need instead of imports is a higher ethic or a regulation requiring queen breeders selling in the USA to be doing something about the mite problem instead of putting a queen in a queen cage and charging $12. It appears to me that the solutions to the mite problem are within reach but takes a regimented commitment to doing the work and selectvely breeding a mite resistant bee. Of course this require a lot more effort then just shipping a queen to pay the bills or importing bees to profit on the current situation. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 17:41:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Adam Whitson Subject: Feral Hive, Gas Tank, Activity Returns Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I live near Wichita, KS. A farm near me has a lot of junk lying about. A hive of feral bees has set up shop in an old car fuel tank. The owners report that for a few years they have seen bees working from the 4 inch opening in the tank. The tank is leaning up on a car at about a 60 degree angle. I have been watching the hive all winter and spring. I am trying to figure out the best plan to move these bees from this farm to mine. And I would also like to move them from the fuel tank to my Lang hive, or a Top Bar Hive I made this winter. Current activity: they have closed the opening from 4 in diameter to about a 3/4 in diameter. 1 or 2 gaurds at the opening, fanning. Bees are brining pollen into the hive. I have very little experience in evaluating feral hives, but I'd say this is a small colony, and that there is a larger hive nearby that we can't locate. Am I correct in that there must be an active queen in this hive? Since I see pollen comming in? Is this a convienient location to swam to, that just cannot support a colony? Winter Activty: When temps climbed about 50 degrees we saw some bee activity (We could look down the opening of the tank and see them busying about). I set out 1:1 sugar surup for them, and I saw a few bees sample it. But the winter activity ceased as the temp got progessively lower at night. We assumed that they had frozen out when on days it climbed back above 50, we saw no activity. We also didnot see any activy all spring, till about 1 week ago. I'd guess that if I was to open the tank now I would see much empty (robbed) comb, and a small area of queen activity and some capped honey. If i opened it now to inspect, I could cut actve comb out and transplant it into a Top Bar hive? Or would these bees revolt? The other option I have considered is just moveing the tank to my farm and monitering them more closely this summer, and attemping to lure them into another hive. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance. ABW _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 20:03:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Cast iron honey extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > and I was perplexed I might say! I would say she or another person has looked at the reel and see the reel is cast iron which is very common. >The statement by this lady that she couldn't even lift it up a little bit because of it's weight was for me the proof that we realy were talking about cast iron here, Older models of extractors were very heavy. I do think I remember seeing an all cast two frame model about 40 or so years ago at a beekeeping sale. Remember butter churns, apple presses and beeswax presses were many times mostly cast years ago. >I wasn't aware that any such thing as a cast iron extractor ever existed! I have got a friend which could say for sure. His name is Wyatt Mangum. he collects old bee equipment. I will send his email address to you if you need to contact Wyatt. Rather not publish on the internet. > Apparently it was handpainted on the inside of the drum, to add to the surprises! Not unusual if galvanized and the finnish is gone or to hide a rust place. >Mind you, I wouldn't like to use the honey that comes from this achine.....surely, the porous cast iron must have sucked up and developed all kinds of goodies that we would normally like to keep a long way away from our honey and flakes of paint in honey do not seem so healthy either! You just described the extractors currently in use in many third world countries! The truth is if a solution of clorox water is used to sterilize the machine before extracting and the paint is not flaking into the honey I doubt serious health concerns would be a problem. Even with THE BEST stainless steel equipment it is essential an extractor which has not been in use for awhile be washed down with clorox water. Cast reels are still common in extractors and legal in the U.S.. Many health departments still allow galvanized drums as long as they have got a good coat of food approved epoxy paint. I have heard a few health departments in other states frown on use of epoxy coated galvanized or steel. Good thing they do not make the worlds beekeepers store their bulk honey in stainless steel 55 gallon barrels. All fifty five gal. drums are metal with a coating. I have not heard of middle east beekeepers shipping into the U.S. in recycled oil drums lately but used to be a huge problem for packers. In fact I have seen empty mixed in with other coated honey drums a few deacdes ago behind larger packers places of business. To sum things up Ron antique bee equipment is not sought after(at this time) like other antiques but if you have found an interesting relic perhaps ebay might be the place to sell. I thought my partner was crazy when he decided to sell his old two ton bee truck (propolis and all) on ebay. He told truthfully about the problems (such as a oil leaking transmission). I quit laughing after he sold the truck for a higher price than he paid ten years ago and got ninety cents a mile to deliver the truck sight unseen to a buyer in Arkansas! I was fond of the old truck as I drove many miles moving bees and equipment. . It is nice now with the newer replacement truck to not have to drive around weigh stations & DOT inspections like we have done many times over the last ten years on out of state trips. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:19:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Bartlett Subject: Fw: Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems logical that mites carry diseases. When you look at several other insects you will find that they carry diseases also. Examples are mosquitoes (malaria & others), fleas (bubonic plague), tics (rocky mountain spotted fever, Lyme disease) and now we have mites that carry disease to our bees. Bill Bartlett :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::