From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:36:28 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B178148780 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEVNio013404 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0506" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 416176 Lines: 8906 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:58:00 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Pollination by broodless honey bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bob wrote: >>The growers are interested in importing queenless packages for pollination and using a queen pheromone to hold the colony together until end of pollination. I never used queen pheromone. Would the pheromone be enough to stop the onset of laying workers? Not an issue to the almond grower (although my perception is colonies with laying workers forage/pollinate less) but any beepkeeper trying to utilize these bees subsequently might have to deal with the laying workers before installing queens. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:25:13 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Pollination by broodless honey bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Will broodless colonies forage for pollen? Not from my observations. I > train my crews to watch for colonies that are NOT collecting > pollen. Almost certain that inspection will show that there is no laying > queen. There may or may not be a queen, but if she's present, she's not > laying. Maybe Jerry has information on why, when you pick up a queenless colony that is almost extinct, the brood frames are packed with pollen. I have seen this happen many times. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:50:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pollination by broodless honey bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Would the pheromone be enough to stop the onset of laying workers? It should for awhile . Not sure for how long. I am not sure of the exact plan. I have been contacted along with a researcher doing research on queen pheromone. I believe the plan is to shake the package into one of the cardboard nuc boxes and let the bees build comb and gather pollen. Not sure of the rest of the plan. The email was to me,a researcher and Terry Brown (Browns Bees Australia) from the leading broker of California almond pollination.hives. My queens from Australia arrived about an hour ago. All alive. One pure Buckfast queen was loose in the box trying to sting another queen in a cage but all the queens were alive. Quite a journey. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:32:48 -0400 Reply-To: jason@practicalcontrols.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jason Apol Subject: Flowers for Michigan bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all. I'm soliciting opinions on what would be the best flower to plant for my bees. I've got an acre tilled up and could use some suggestions. The land is full sun. Soil is sandy loam. We live in SW lower Michigan. It would be great if the flower was also appealing for horses / cattle. A quick search of the last 6 months of postings leaves me with Dutch Clover, Sweet White Clover, Yellow Clover, and Rape. Are these plant names that a seed dealer will recognize? (My seed dealer is female. Does Rape go by any other name? I don't want to sound like a fool.) I appreciate any input. Sincerely, ------------ Jason Apol ><> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:13:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Flowers for Michigan bees Comments: To: jason@PRACTICALCONTROLS.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've got an acre tilled up and could use some suggestions. Ladino, Alsike clovers or Hairy vetch. if tilled up. Dutch makes the best honey of the clovers (my opinion) but is not dependable in most areas. First to burn up in a dry year. The deep rooted yellow & white are the most dependable in a dry year as they are deep rooted. Plant the yellow & white sweet clovers if you plan on letting the field grow tall. Cattle & horses will keep too short if many on the field. Most beekeepers use the yellow & white around fence lines which are not mowed. >The land is full sun. Soil is sandy loam. We live in SW lower Michigan. Clovers do well in most areas but has a hard time competing with fescue grass in our area. I believe the fescue would almost completely choke out the clover if not for cutting hay and grazing livestock. giving the clovers a break. Bob Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:37:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Honey standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was asked the question below today, and I thought this group might have some good ideas. If we can, why not just list them on the reply, which I have started below...next idea fill in the 2. and etc. You can add you name after the idea if you want, or not... I work for a large grocery store and I'm looking into putting some quality standards in place for honey here. Some of the things I've thought of are: all honey labeled with country of origin no honey from China (at least right now) I'm sure there are more things to consider. Do you have any ideas regarding this? 1. Jars clean and not sticky 2. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:23:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Nectar bushes and trees for honey bees. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I am looking for nectar bushes or small trees to plant that have deep-red or purple leaves during the summer. (Similar in color to Japanese maples.) If the flowers produce berries/fruit for wildlife - even better. Any suggestions? Any other recommendations on landscaping bushes or small trees that are great for bees would be appreciated as well. Waldemar Long Island, NY PS. I ordered a couple of evodia danielli, or bee bee, trees this spring and would like to add other plants. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:12:36 -0400 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honey Standards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 2. At least 51% of the honey in the package must come from the first country listed, and some honey must come from each country listed. 3. Producers and Packers must maintain records documenting any floral source listed as the type of honey. 4. If honey is described as 'Local', producers and packers must maintain records documenting that the honey was produced within a 100 mile radius of the store. Hope this helps, -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:12:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harold Rogers Subject: bee plants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are a couple of good bee plants that the bees will really go for and that is Blue Anise Hyssop and Borage. They may be expensive to start, but they will put out the nectar. Also there is Japanese Bamboo which is very good in the summer time. Hope this will help. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:29:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I work for a large grocery store and I'm looking into putting some quality standards in place for honey here. Some of the things I've thought of are: all honey labeled with country of origin no honey from China (at least right now) As the buyer you can specify honey with only the U.S. label. The problem is the packers which sell honey "product of around seven different countires" on the label have also got a label which says "product of the U.S.". packers police themselves. Kind of like the wolf guarding the sheep. Some are honorable and some are not honorable. Local beekeepers have usually got a excellent local product but in most cases can not supply the demand of large grocery stores. Most small beekeepers understand the meaning of sustainable agriculture and do not want to sell at grocery store prices which are usually set by packers selling foreign honey. I find it amusing that U.S. honey in bulk hit bottom at least six months ago and a flood of cheap imported honey flooded the packer market and packers are still selling in stores at the prices they were when honey was selling for 1.50 and up a pound by the container load. I helped unload 60 drums of honey (with forkilft outside) for a packer last Saturday (his dock is not yet complete on his new building ,which houses his new packing line).and asked when he was going to start dropping his prices. He said not until his new equipment is paid for. I'm sure there are more things to consider. Do you have any ideas regarding this? 1. Jars clean and not sticky 2. labels not on upside down Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:16:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Honey standards In-Reply-To: <8518F15BB956014C90B2E2CC0D4C4F9FFCBC27@w2k3telnet.root.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suggest that the individual wishing to reach a certain level of quality assurance with regards to honey would possibly be helped by reading: > http://www.codexalimentarius.net/web/standard_list.do?lang=en > http://www.apis.admin.ch/en/bienenprodukte/docs/honig/authenticityrevew.pdf Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:52:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Nectar bushes and trees for honey bees. In-Reply-To: <20050608.142318.8655.17947@webmail21.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-47922006 > Any other recommendations on landscaping bushes or small trees that > are great for bees would be appreciated Russian Olive -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.5.2 - Release Date: 6/3/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:24:34 -0400 Reply-To: jbkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Das_Sauen_=D6hr_Farm=2C_LLC?= Subject: Re: bee plants In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "....Blue Anise Hyssop and Borage. They may be expensive to start...." I received a very good price on the seeds from Johnny's Seeds in New England. You can find them on the net. I have a commercial growers account, and catalogue. You can tell them that Jonathan Kriebel from Das Sauen Öhr Farm, Green Lane PA recommended you, it would help us both out... I planted 500 of the hyssop, using peat disks, but also broadcast spread 1.5 acre of the seed. The Borage, I have about a 1-2 acre of the white and a 1-4 acre of the blue coming up. Also 5 acres alfalfa, and 5 of Clover, plus the Dutch clover in the orchard. If we get rain, this should be a good year, but it has been either too cold, now very hot... Thanks...JK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:39:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herv=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9_Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Honey standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I work for a large grocery store and I'm looking into putting some > quality standards in place for honey here. Interesting question. I am glad to read that some groceries want to get out of the "I sell generic products cheaper than others" rough lane and move to the "I sell local high quality products" new market. I have been asked the same kind of question by restaurant's chefs here also: "How can I recognize a good floral honey from a scrap blending of overfiltered heated honeys ? Any difference in color ? Cristallization ?". I answered that a chef must know his supllier and taste his products. He must have a "tasting culture" that allow him to distinguish at least local floral honeys. Then we useally discuss a lot about the different ways to process honeys, the different ways to harvest honeys, the different ways beekeepers work, sanitary products used, risks, other products than honey from hives, honey chemistery that explains tastes, colors, cristallization. I say a chef must know how his supplier is working, what are the different ways to process honeys. This is already what they do with vegetable and meat producers. They visit them and know how vegetable are grown, where they come from, how they are processed. Let's do the same with beekeepers. But I guess a buyer for a grocery store can not taste all products. He probably have no time for such discussion. Yet, knowing his local suppliers and visit him should be an excellent idea to develop a network. If the buyer is busy and need paper as standard, I think he should require a certificate of analysis for each floral source claimed for by the honey packer. He should require pollen analysis that will allow him to sort out blended honeys or overfiltered honeys. He sould require lot number for traceability. Small beekeepers won't be able to provide such a paper for each harvest, and in such case personal relationship with supplier and knowing the way he works are the best guarantee of quality. Let's visit him/her. Hervé www.emelys.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:59:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Honey standards In-Reply-To: <42A78A45.6080002@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" For honey standards, I will also suggest to read the Canadian honey regulations at:http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-0.4/C.R.C.-c.287/24278.html There is also the enforcing agency that is Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) to check beekeepers' operations and honey on the shelf to ensure meeting the standards. When I contacted the CFIA for Tony Roma's Honey Molasses label, they got the product in question and contacted Tony Roma's. At the end of long trails of e-mails and correspondences, Tony Roma's acknowledged the mistake. They decided to take immediate corrective actions. They are placing stickers on current inventory and making new labels for all products manufactured after May 25. The new label says Honey, Molasses,........ . The bottom line is " Establishing standards and enforcing agency are equally important to maintain high quality" Thanks for Bee-L members who brought this issue to the discussion group "Bee-L" and contacted Tony Roma's to complain. medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:27:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Honey standards In-Reply-To: <8518F15BB956014C90B2E2CC0D4C4F9FFCBC27@w2k3telnet.root.loc al> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3FA36652 At 04:37 PM 6/8/2005, you wrote: >all honey labeled with country of origin no honey from China (at least >right now) With all the blended honey out there, and some of it already listing the US as one of the countries of origin (even though it's likely to represent a very small percentage), it may be much more useful to label the country or counties of origin and the percent they contribute. And they should be listed in order from most to least (just like ingredients in other food products.) -Tim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.6 - Release Date: 6/8/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:41:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: How hot must hot be to kill brood? Hi everyone, I learned a hard lesson today. I made up 20 nucs in double nuc colonies last night and put them at the back of the farm. They all had ventilation holes but the entrances were sealed with duct tape. It is very hot today, over 30 C in the shade i believe. The bees got really really warm, and in one nuc the bees all died. The other the bees are pretty slow but they seem ok. How hot does it have to be before the brood gets killed? If the bees are still alive, is it safe to assume the brood is too? Hope to hear from you all soon! If I don't reply is is porobably cause I melted. Take care, Carm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:55:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 7 Jun 2005 to 8 Jun 2005 (#2005-154) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/06/2005 05:02:58 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: > I'm sure there are more things to consider. Do you have any ideas > regarding this? > > 1. Jars clean and not sticky > 2. Jars full 3. Choice of honeys, clear, set, soft set, chunk, pressed. 4. Named local sources (and named beekeeper or apiary) giving variety not a standard homogenised product. 5. Avoid blends except for cheap 'cooking' honey. 6. Sell cooking honey labelled as such but also with a selection of recipes (different one on each jar) for baking and brewing. These could be sold in larger containers. These policies should enable top quality honey to be sold at top prices, but also allowing a place in the market for the stuff that doesn't make the grade. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 20:10:46 -0500 Reply-To: jcf@fcf.camaguey.cu Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juan Carlos Fernandez Campos Subject: Re: Nectar bushes and trees for honey bees. In-Reply-To: <20050608.142318.8655.17947@webmail21.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Visit http://freeplants.com/ or http://www.infojardin.com/ here you sould find some information or advise. Juan Carlos. I am looking for nectar bushes or small trees to plant that have deep-red or purple leaves during the summer. (Similar in color to Japanese maples.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 22:09:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: Flowers for Michigan bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Jason, I can offer some info about the clovers. The presence of coumarin in sweet clover makes it less palatable to livestock. Alsike clover can cause photosensitivity and liver damage in horses, so it should not be included in horse hay or pasture mixtures. Birdsfoot trefoil is a non-bloating legume best suited for permanent pasture situations. It is well adapted to steep or stony land that should not be cultivated, because birdsfoot trefoil will reseed itself. Although individual plants live for only a few years, stands of birdsfoot trefoil have remained productive for 10 or more years when allowed to go to seed. It is also adapted to soils with marginal drainage. White clover is used mainly in pastures. It is a short-lived perennial that can reseed itself. There are three general types of white clover: ladino, white dutch and small wild white. All three are similar in appearance but differ in size, with wild white being the smallest and ladino the largest. Kent Stienburg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Apol" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 2:32 PM Subject: [BEE-L] Flowers for Michigan bees > It would be great if the flower was also appealing for horses / cattle. > > A quick search of the last 6 months of postings leaves me with Dutch Clover, > Sweet White Clover, Yellow Clover, and Rape. > > I appreciate any input. > > Sincerely, > ------------ > Jason Apol ><> > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:29:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: How hot must hot be to kill brood? In-Reply-To: <200506092041.j59IYB7d016956@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...How hot does it have to be before the > brood gets killed?.... In 1954, Lindauer placed a beehive on a lava field in Italy where temperatures reached 70°C. The bees were able to maintain a brood nest temperature of 35°C. This was dependent on the bees ability to collect water for cooling. This ability to collect water is essential to cool the broodnest. And if hampered, it could be catastrophic to the colony and brood. __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:08:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 7 Jun 2005 to 8 Jun 2005 (#2005-154) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I understand that in the UK most honeys are multifloral, how than can you name the variety. I except Ling Honer and probably OSR honey. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: . > 4. Named local sources (and named beekeeper or apiary) giving variety not > a > standard homogenised product. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:36:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: How hot must hot be to kill brood? In-Reply-To: <200506092041.j59IYB7d016956@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4FA67240 > They all had ventilation >holes but the entrances were sealed with duct tape. It is very hot today, >over 30 C in the shade i believe. The bees got really really warm, and in >one nuc the bees all died. I've had the same thing happen. I think you should have made them with less bees, and opened the entrances, after you moved them. When it gets that hot, and the bees are closed in, they panic and crowd against the ventilation area, and plug it up. They then regurgitate, trying to cool things off, and die. You could have screened the tops, or the bottoms, so there was adequate ventilation. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.6.6 - Release Date: 6/8/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:33:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Herv=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9_Log=E9?= Subject: Re: Honey standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > http://www.codexalimentarius.net/web/standard_list.do?lang=en > http://www.apis.admin.ch/en/bienenprodukte/docs/honig/authenticityrevew.pdf >For honey standards, I will also suggest to read the Canadian honey regulations at:http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-0.4/C.R.C.-c.287/24278.html Those definitions and standards for honey can be verified by an official agency with labs. But it is not the job of a buyer for a grocery store to ensure honey meets those bottom line standards and he has nor the equipment nor the skills to do that. He needs easy practical criteria to be abble to distinguish higher quality honeys from blended generic honey, doesn't he ? And official standards fail to help him in this matter. Hervé www.emelys.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:20:34 -0400 Reply-To: jason@practicalcontrols.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jason Apol Subject: Thank You - Flowers for Michigan bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to thank all the folks that took the time to reply to my post. Your information is most helpful! I'm going to do some reading and then go to my seed dealer. Once again, many thanks, ------------ Jason Apol ><> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:29:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: honey standards In-Reply-To: <200506100400.j5A3tmgH006538@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed But, isn't blended honey mostly an excuse to use cheap rank honey, heated to drive off some of the awful flavor, then blended with something more palatable to make it less of a rank product. Excuse me, this is a hot button for me. I'm not hung up on blended honey being honey from multiple beekeepers, all of a high grade... It would seem to me that honey marked Unblended or Single Source meaning one apiary could be seen as a good thing and go for a premium. I grew up with BillyBee brand in Canada. Today it seems largely Argentinian with some Canadian mixed in. They got caught with Nitrofurans in their honey, and they lost complete credibility in my eyes. (Of course, when they had credibility, it was 45 years ago and I was just a little gaffer). I guess what I'm saying is there's blended honey (multiple source) and then there's blended honey (rank crap that's the bulk of the product, processed to kill the savor of dirty gym socks, blended with the minimal amount of good honey so as not to send you to the porcelain throne head first. Ok. Ok. I'll calm down and play nice. At 12:00 AM 6/10/2005 -0400, you wrote: >With all the blended honey out there, and some of it already listing the US >as one of the countries of origin (even though it's likely to represent a >very small percentage), it may be much more useful to label the country or >counties of origin and the percent they contribute. And they should be >listed in order from most to least (just like ingredients in other food >products.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:00:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Flowers for Michigan bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kent & All. I might add my two cents worth as a livestock producer in Missouri and coming from a horse background. >I can offer some info about the clovers. The presence of coumarin in sweet clover makes it less palatable to livestock. If you are keeping livestock of any kind you do not need (nor is it recomended ) to pasture on a field of drilled in clover like the original poster said he was doing. Sell for hay! A pasture mix suited for the livestock you are raising is a better choice. Horses etc. will get too fat ( foaming at the mouth is a certain sign of too much clover in the field), cattle could bloat (stuck many a cow and let the air out while waiting for the vet and what a smell!) on feilds mostly clover unless they have been on the field on season. Not *all* horses and cattle are bothered by fields mostly clover. >Alsike clover can cause photosensitivity and liver damage in horses, so it should not be included in horse hay or pasture mixtures. Actually is included in many pasture mixes (MFA for one) but not in a amount considered a problem. If you think beekeepers can not agree on issues then bring up hay around horse people. Each has a different idea and by the time the issue gets back around the room the first horse people have changed their minds! >Birdsfoot trefoil is a non-bloating legume best suited for permanent pasture situations. Interesting. I have never seen used for pasture in Missouri and Missouri is the second largest cow/calf state in the U.S..I will start suggesting its use as birdsfoot trefoil is an excellent and dependable honey plant. The honey I have been told when single source is not as high a grade of honey as our clover honey. Birdsfoot trefoil is around in areas around filelds in places and I see the bees working the plant. >. There are three general types of white clover: ladino,white dutch and small wild white. The small wild white is mainly what I see. Burns up easily. Most farmers in the Midwest buy the red clover seed as the farmers which combine the seed sell the seed for around forty eight cents a pound in bulk. Lowest price clover seed in the state. Not a dependable honey plant in our area until after baled or mowed and the next bunch of blooms are stunted and smaller. Ladino is included in some pasture mixes but in a very small amount. I wish the cattleman & farmers would stop the love affair with red clover and the Missouri road department would stop the love affair with crown vetch. There are better choices to help the beekeeper! I have been told the bees work crown vetch north of us in Iowa but I have never seen the bees work crown vetch in our area. The above is only my observations for my area. A couple hundred miles in any direction could be different. What are others observations beside Kent & mine? Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:33:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: honey standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >But, isn't blended honey mostly an excuse to use cheap rank honey, heated to drive off some of the awful flavor, then blended with something more palatable to make it less of a rank product. Common packer method. >I'm not hung up on blended honey being honey from multiple beekeepers, all of a high grade... Most large beekeeper honey would have to be considered blended if not from a single known source as the honey is extracted and pumped into a large tank. Most U.S. honey is sold in bulk by the source most of the honey is thought to be or simply called "wildflower". >It would seem to me that honey marked Unblended or Single Source meaning one apiary could be seen as a good thing and go for a premium. Color enters the picture with packers. Lighter brings a premium price and buckwheat is a bakers grade. I am not saying Buckwheat or heartsease honey is not a good honey (some people love both) but packers will not buy because of the amount of water white needed to blend out the flavor (and smell of heartsease or smartweed)! >I grew up with BillyBee brand in Canada. Today it seems largely Argentinian with some Canadian mixed in. Argentine honey (not all) is very dark (almost a rust color) and with an off flavor in my opinion. The standard packer blend is 8 barrels of dark Argentine to 2 barrels of water white. In my opinion a hell of a waste of water white honey but makes packers money (and moves the darker honey for the Argentine beekeepers). >They got caught with Nitrofurans in their honey, and they lost complete credibility in my eyes. That was last year ! Now they and China are back with clean honey. Hence the drop in packer prices! The hard truth ( like it or not) is over half the honey sold in stores in the U.S. is from foreign sources. U.S. beekeepers are not interested in producing honey to compete with foreign prices in bulk. If not for pollination, selling retail and packing and selling under the beekeepers own label most beekeepers would have got out of beekeeping (myself included as the business would not be sustainable). What ever business one chooses you can not survive when the product you make sells for less than it costs to produce. >Ok. Ok. I'll calm down and play nice. Scream! Take it out on the wife & kids! Makes no difference. The sooner you realize the truth about the way the market is then you can understand the market and look for a niche market such as my friend George Imirie suggests! The heck with what honey sells for in the stores (unless you sell in stores)! The sideline beekeeper must figure his/her cost an price accordingly! I strongly suggest the hobby beekeeper support the large beekeeper and at least price at store levels. Selling a jar of honey at half the store price only confuses the customer and hurts the beekeeping industry. You have got a quality product and price as such! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:36:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Shaw Subject: Bees and alcohol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A friend of mine is giving a talk tomorrow on fermented beverages and asked me the following about bees. Quote: Are honeybees attracted to fermenting fruits, etc. and alcoholic stuff like yellow jackets are? If so, are there any websites about it? I am putting a twist on my talk tomorrow and am going to go a little into the fact that lots of different animals have been enjoying the effects of fermented materials since way before humans came along. Lots of examples, elephants being a favorite. EndQuote. I did find a study on bee reactions to alcohol and it only implied that the bees drank it willingly. I had thought that bees wouldn't like as they didn't like a beekeeper I know the day he had taken a shot of vodka before working his bees. http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/drunkbee.htm Can anyone shed any light on this? I could find no mention in the "Hive and the Honey Bee" or in the "ABC and XYZ of Beekeeping". Attempted the archives but was inundated with propolis removal etc. Did find one where bees would drink fermented sugar syrup at 10% alcohol or less but the study in the link above went up to 100%. Dick In Memphis, TN 5 hives and counting... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:49:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: How hot must hot be to kill brood? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/06/05 14:20:03 GMT Daylight Time, naturebee@YAHOO.COM writes: ...How hot does it have to be before the > brood gets killed?.... I remember reading an old edition of the XYZ... that I found in a library; someone on the list may have a copy. There was an article, I think with a photo, describing a hive either in or immediately outside a woodyard where there was a serious fire. The hive was apparenly on fire itself, yet the bees inside were unharmed. Presumably the entrance faced away from the flames. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:24:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gerald Herrin Subject: Re: Flowers for Michigan bees In-Reply-To: <001201c56dee$b9cb9c60$35bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In SW Missouri, I have never seen bees work crown vetch or red clover which is commonly sown in pasture. I have noticed that towards Bolivar, Missouri, the highway department seems to be planting more flowering plants (native species?) along the newly built highway 65 right of way. I've never seen much birdsfoot trefoil here either but I do understand that overgrazing is tough on it. Gerald Gerald Herrin geraldherrin@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:19:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Doug Henry Subject: Bumble Bees In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050606144925.04e787e0@mail.watchtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, I'm looking for info on how bumblebees survive the winter in northern climes like Manitoba. Does anyone have any information on this or a URL I can access? Tnx Doug Lockport Manitoba -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.6 - Release Date: 08/06/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 02:35:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D Thompson Subject: Flowers for Michigan In-Reply-To: <200506110401.j5B3oR3L024244@listserv.albany.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Surely I can't be the only BK that's grown Sainfoin? (~4 acres in the Ottawa valley, Pembroke Ont) (Onobrychis viciafollia, less common O sativa) The seed and innoculant is hard to find Wedmore claims 200#/acre(honey), this is close Yield (hay) is less than alfalfa, more than red clover (one cut usually) Likes lime Seedling delicate, not as bad as trefoil Sensitive to 24DB, don't use Flowers as fireweed, ie almost a month from bottom to top If you cut late, the hay is tougher with less protein Usually cut at full flower It's easy to graze it to death seed is never "naked", always in rough husk Honey crystallizes fast and soft (not as fast as mustard/rape) Easily ferments, be sure moisture is low Quality is OK or better, nothing special Makes a pile of honey (in case I was unclear) dave :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:42:39 -0700 Reply-To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carm Subject: Re: How hot must hot be to kill brood? In-Reply-To: <75.470fa043.2fdb64f9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey guys, Thanks for all the replies on me almost killing my bees. The one nuc that did die did seem to have the most bees. I looked at the colonies again in the evening after it happened and there were all presumably happy. I have been keeping bees for only 5 or 6 years, but I have never seen weather like this in June. Reaching temperatures of 30 C/90 F is lucky weather in Augest here in this part of Ontario. I sure will be paying more attention to how long I keep them confined when I use tape on the entrances. I guess I have a bunch of screes to make up I guess, seeing as the weather is supposed to stay like this for a bit and I have around 120 to make in the next few days. Take care and best of luck you all you beekeepers. I am off to build more equipment, seems lots of beeskeepers are suddenly anxious for me to finish it now that the hot weather has arrive! Carm __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:59:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Bumble Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Greetings, I'm looking for info on how bumblebees survive the winter in northern climes like Manitoba. In nature (cold winter) only the new young freshly mated queen survives. She burrows down below the freeze line and overwinters. Then comes out in spring and gathers nectar & pollen and makes a ball on which she lays and raises the first daughters. In Missouri I have seen nests as high as around 300 workers in late fall. The old queen & nest dies as the bees do not store enough honey to winter on. I am not sure of the story in the tropics. To overwinter a nest of bumble bees you would need to supply the food needs in Canada. A simple bumble bee hive can be made by simply making a square wooden box slightly bigger than the nest with a Plexiglas top. Add an entrance. Dig the nest from the ground and place in the box and move to a new out of the way location. Outside shaded is best but could be inside but I have never tried. The bumble bees will soon return to normal activities which you can observe through the Plexiglas. Hours of pleasure can be had for little effort! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 10:07:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Nectar bushes and trees for honey bees. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by beeman704@COX.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=59106EA0) (56 lines) ------------------- From: "bernardbieder" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Nectar bushes and trees for honey bees. Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:42:35 -0400 Where did you order E.Danielli ? I have had no luck getting plants, altho one of our members passes out seeds in the summer. They can be difficult to germinate. ----- Original Message ----- From: "waldig@netzero.com" > PS. I ordered a couple of evodia danielli, or bee bee, trees this spring and would like to add other plants. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:11:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harold Rogers Subject: mite solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I ran across this literature on mite solution and herbal jelly. I sounds like maybe it would do some good instead of all the chemicals that are being used today. I would like to know if any one has used this product and has it done any good? Thanks for any info you might have. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:38:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: mite solution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harold Rogers wrote: >I ran across this literature on mite solution and herbal jelly. > > A link please. Bill Truesdell (who likes herbal jelly on toast) Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:43:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Nectar bushes and trees for honey bees. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I ordered mine from Forest Farms in Oregon. They sell them in tubes and 1 gal. pots. The tubes are around $7. They have a website. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll look up the phone number. Waldemar Long Island, NY ==================================== From: "bernardbieder" Where did you order E.Danielli ? I have had no luck getting plants, altho one of our members passes out seeds in the summer. They can be difficult to germinate. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:17:18 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Apimondia 2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apimondia in 2007 is being held in Melbourne, Australia. The website has been started and can be seen at www.apimondia2007.com = Have a look and start making plans to be in Melbourne in September, = 2007. If you see any mistakes on the website, let me know so we can correct = them. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:10:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: mite solution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by elbees@COPPER.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=505276DA) (48 lines) ------------------- From: Les Crosby Subject: Re: [BEE-L] mite solution Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:37:40 -0700 To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology I have been using 3lbs. of icing sugar mixed with 6ozs of garlic powder for mite control.I use my smoker to apply the mixture. Only use it during late August.Began the treatment in 2001 and my four colonies are in excellent condition.During the 1999 Apimondia Congress I learned about smokeless smoke for bee control.It is produced as liquid bee smoke and dispensed in a spray bottle using an ounce of concentrate to 16 ounces of water.I have used it for the past six years and will never go back to the hassel of keeping a smoker going.My smoker is only used to dispense the mite control powder! The liguid smoke is produced by Newton Apiaries, Fresno ,Ca. 93722 to order; 559 277-8456. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:37:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Ruzicka Subject: Bee Sting Therapy Does any one know of a clinic in the USA that treats patients with polyneuropathe, or similar diseases with bee stings? If you have any information please contact Bill directly at billruzicka@mitegone.com. I would like to help my sick friend in Europe. Thank you! Bill :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:11:22 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Banking of virgin queens - advisable? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I am considering dequeening a strong hive in order for it to build queen cells. I'll then place wire mesh cages over the sealed queen cells and possibly bank the emerged virgins in the same hive to select the largest ones for mating nucs. The banking would be for a few days - until all the queens emerge. Is this advisable? My concerns are: 1. Do the emerged virgins need to be transfered into queen installation cages (I have both wood and plastic types) or should they be kept in the same wire mesh cages where they emerged? 2. Will the bees feed all the banked virgins or will they select only some to care for? 3. Does a queenless mating nuc readily accept a virgin queen by the direct release method or does one need to install the virgin in a cage with fondant in the access hole? Thank you. Any advice or suggestions will be appreciated. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:27:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Banking of virgin queens - advisable? In-Reply-To: <20050615.061142.17473.100884@webmail28.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar & all > 1. Do the emerged virgins need to be transfered into queen > installation cages (I have both wood and plastic types) or should > they be kept in the same wire mesh cages where they emerged? Either of these two options is OK, but mostly they are kept in the cage they emerged into. > 2. Will the bees feed all the banked virgins or will they select > only some to care for? There is no clear cut answer for this as will depend on the difference in genetics between the workers doing the feeding and the virgins. If they are closely related you should be OK, however if the bees ignore any particular virgin, you should assume that they 'know best' and discard that one. > 3. Does a queenless mating nuc readily accept a virgin queen by > the direct release method or does one need to install the virgin > in a cage with fondant in the access hole? This is also difficult to answer, In general there should be some delaying tactic, but not as much as would be provided by candy in an introduction cage. Your circumstance would be similar to that which occurs when re-introducing Instrumentally Inseminated queens back to the nuc she came out of. see... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ii_reintro.html Do not confine your virgins for too long, they would normally mate after 5, 6 or 7 days. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 5.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:59:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Julie Mayer Subject: Filtering Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I am brand new to the list and a small-scale hobbyist. In years past I = have just strained honey through nylon mesh strainer bags. I am okay = with the degree of clarity that brings but wish I could postpone the = crystallization that always comes to my stored honey. Any sort of = pressurized or commercial filtration system is of course out of the = question for my operation. =20 I see Dadant has sets of three strainers, with mesh sizes of 600, 400, = and 200 microns. My question is, what is the micron size of the mesh in = the average unlabelled nylon bag, or for that matter the trusty pair of = nylon pantyhose? Will passage through a 200 micron strainer make any = significant difference in clarity or in the prevention of = crystallization? =20 Doc :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:55:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Filtering Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In years past I have just strained honey through nylon mesh strainer bags. I am okay with the degree of clarity that brings but wish I could postpone the crystallization that always comes to my stored honey. Any sort of pressurized or commercial filtration system is of course out of the question for my operation. All pure honey granulates. Some such as canola very fast and honey such as Tupelo appears to never granulate as I am looking at a jar four years old of Bill Merrit ( Florida) Tupelo still clear. Pressure filters will remove some crystals if the honey is hot enough by forcing the honey through a filter/ filters. In my opinion your answer is a warming box in which you can control the temperature. I did an article for Bee Culture a few years ago (similar post on BEE-L) about converting an old freezer into a warming box. The time is late and I have got an early day. Perhaps a fellow BEE-L member will pull up the post I did on converting the freezer to a warming box for these people. If you subscribe to Bee Culture I believe the aricle was in the fall of 2002 (maybe 2001). The heat limit control ( cat. no. 250) can be purchased from Walter Kelley co.1-800-233-2899 (or you can use the thermostat from a water heater) and the power comes from a light bulb. YOU DO NEED A WAY OF CONTROLLING THE TEMPERATURE. Take your granulated honey and place in your warming box. Set the desired temp and end of honey granulated honey problems. 100 F. will take longer than 120F but both will clear honey. Left to long and your honey will darken. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 02:46:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D Thompson Subject: Banking of virgin queens - advisable? In-Reply-To: <200506160403.j5G3xcbq014018@listserv.albany.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ""I am considering dequeening a strong hive in order for it to build queen cells. I'll then place wire mesh cages over the sealed queen cells and possibly bank the emerged virgins in the same hive to select the largest ones for mating nucs. The banking would be for a few days - until all the queens emerge."" I've done this a few times --I'm no expert Largest?? they only get large later When emerged they are only slightly larger than workers. Many times only recognizable as Q after a close look If the cages go on too early they (workers) "dig" underneath Worse if bees entrapped in cage, quick excavation then if comb is mostly yellow they even go thru mid rib 2 days before or less is best. Here's advantage to dark comb (with dark comb score (with hive tool) where cage will push in) Move frame(s) to top box and make sure they can slide easily or change box for a clean one You may be into it 6 times, best make it convenient A few honey cells should be under each cage Very young virgins are readily accepted Twice a day I would check "hatch", put frame back, make weak nucs, drop in virgin 10 min later They all survived I often used bribery rather than smoke to keep the commotion down and the little princesses unpaniced dave :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:08:02 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Banking of virgin queens - advisable? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks, Dave. >>Largest?? they only get large later When emerged they are only slightly larger than workers. Many times only recognizable as Q after a close look I have looked at virgins before and thought I could see size differences albeit small. When they mature and start laying, I believe, it's primarly the abdomen that gets longer and fatter. I am not positive the initial size impression correlates to the queen's larger size later on. Although I remember reading somewhere where they had a table showing different queen weights after emergence. They said a virgin's weight (~200 g plus was best if I recall) was an indicator of how many ovaries would become functional affecting how many eggs she could lay. >>If the cages go on too early they (workers) "dig" underneath Worse if bees entrapped in cage, quick excavation then if comb is mostly yellow they even go thru mid rib 2 days before or less is best. I make wire mesh cages with long walls that reach down to the mid-rib. [Since I use plastic frames, workers can't get into the cages.] This way I can cage the queen cells as soon as they are sealed. >>A few honey cells should be under each cage Excellent point. I've seen queens drink out of honey cells when not fed by workers. Regards, Waldemar :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:03:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Queen Biology (was Banking of virgin queens - advisable?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Waldemar wrote: > They said a > virgin's weight (~200 g plus was best if I recall) was an > indicator of how many ovaries would become functional > affecting how many eggs she could lay. Some may call this nit picking, but the above statement is not quite correct, and I am writing this from memory so I hope I get it correct. All queens have 2 ovaries. Wlademar's statement should read, "an indicator of how many OVARIOLES would become functional." The analogy I use to make the distinction between ovaries and ovarioles is, the ovaries are the factories where eggs are assembled, the ovarioles are the work stations within the factories where the raw materials are put together." All queens have 2 factories, all queens create eggs. However, a queen with two factories with many workstations can (and does) produce many more eggs than a queen with two factories with fewer workstations. A many-ovarioled queen is far superior to a fewer-ovarioled queen. Differences can range from the low end of around 100 ovarioles to the high end of around 180 ovarioles. A high-end queen may be almost twice as good as a low end queen. The nourishment of the developing larva is what determines how many ovarioled develop within a developing queen. This is why it is best to use very young larvae when grafting queens. The earlier on a larva is fed to become a queen, the more likely it is that the final product (the queen herself) will be on the higher end ovariole count. Of course, there are other factors that determine the quality of a queen, such as successful mating. A poorly mated many-ovarioled queen will probably not be as good as a well mated, fewer-ovarioled queen. I'm speculating here, I do not know if this has ever been studied. However, with all the variables affecting the end product, it is wise to optimise the chances whenever possible. In the case of developing larvae, nourishment, and ovariole count, it is best to maximize chances by starting with the youngest larvae available and feeding the colony making the queens with extra pollen (not pollen substitute). Removing a queen to stimulate a colony to raise queens opens one to the chances that the bees may choose larvae that are older than ones a beekeeper could choose. Then again, if there's a chance the bees will choose a less than optimally aged larva there is also a chance the bees will choose an optimally aged larva. The thing is, chance is introduced when it need not be. But I digress, my intent was to make the distinction between ovaries and ovarioles. Aaron Morris - thinking numbers count! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:09:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Malcolm T. Sanford" Subject: Traditional vs Modern Beekeeping Methods in Iraq In-Reply-To: <200506160403.j5G3xcbo014018@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Folks, I have returned from Anatolia, usually identified with Turkey < http://www.turkishnews.com/DiscoverTurkey/anatolia/history.html>, but also where the borders of Syria, Turkey, Iraq and not too far away, Iran, come fairly close together. My flight from Istanbul, via Charles De Gaul airport (Paris) was uneventful except that my luggage didn't make it. I flew on to the ancient city of Diyarbakir, Turkey via the very modern Turkish Airlines, staying overnight in the Dedeman Hotel. Two days later with luggage in hand it was a wild cab ride to the Iraq border crossing at Zakho. From then it was another 2.5 hours by SUV to Erbil via back roads avoiding the main route, which leads to one of the current hot spots, the Iraqi city of Mosul. My stay was confined to the northern region, where security concerns are minimal but by no means eliminated. Check points are everywhere manned by Kurdistan Nationalist Forces. Quickly, I was to realize that I was really not in Iraq proper, but in the semi-autonomous greater Kurdistan region , Note on long urls as above. To use this url, select all the text between the brackets <> and then copy (CTRL c) and paste (CTRL v) it into the browser's navigation box. which has a colorful history of its own, encompassed by three great cities I was to visit, Diyarbakir in Turkey and Erbil and Suliamania (spelled many ways) in Iraq. Beekeeping began in this region of the world over 5,000 years ago and continues to this day. The events of the recent past, however, characterized by many conflicts have destroyed much of this mostly rural activity. Thus, I was informed by more than one official that Kurdish beekeeping was literally starting from "zero." As I bumped over kilometers of roads visiting towns like Shaqlaqwa and Dahuk I realized that this provided a unique opportunity for the region to begin from scratch via "survivor" bees that are found mostly in the mountains like many of the people refugees of the region. Thus, from the ashes of Kurdistan beekeeping could arise a Phoenix of an industry based on untreated "survivor" honey bees, and not dependent on chemicals for treatment of Varroa as found in much of the rest of the world. Is this just an academic dream or a real possibility? Only time will tell, but in the meantime I ask you, the Apis readership, to send me your reflections on the following questions: 1. If you were to counsel those beginning from "scratch," in a region where the bees and people have been devastated by conflict, how much would you suggest relying on local "survivor" bees? How long could or would you recommend waiting for an industry based on such a stock to develop? 2. If you needed new genetic material quickly, how would you go about importing queens from the rest of the world with minimal risk? (Note: so far Acarapis woodi has not been found in Iraq and AFB and EFB are present, but apparently not at epidemic levels; small hive beetle has yet to make an appearance). 3. In rural villages with established populations of bees in traditional hives made of narrow woven baskets covered with wood ash as a wattle, would you recommend immediate transfer to Langstroth moveable-frame hives and elimination of the traditional hives as is currently proposed? If not, what would you recommend with reference to developing sustainable and appropriate beekeeping in this setting? Read more at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Apis_Newsletter/ Malcolm T. Sanford Executive Secretary Florida State Beekeepers Association http://floridabeekeepers.org Subscribe to the Association's electronic mailing list at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/F_S_B_A/ and Doc Bullard's all about Florida beekeeping at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FloridaBeekeepers/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:42:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen Biology (was Banking of virgin queens - advisable?) In-Reply-To: <63D883CB0A1B204EB053673DD882CB530D8F1531@email.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Aaron said... > my intent was to make the distinction between ovaries > and ovarioles. I would like to make a distinction between grams (gm) and milligrams (mg) > virgin's weight (~200 g plus was best if I recall) That is about 7 ounces in the old avoirdupois weighing system :-) Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 5.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:05:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Traditional vs Modern Beekeeping Methods in Iraq In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050616100706.03dbb620@pop.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Malcom writes: 1. If you were to counsel those beginning from "scratch," in a region where the bees and people have been devastated by conflict, how much would you suggest relying on local "survivor" bees? How long could or would you recommend waiting for an industry based on such a stock to develop? Reply: I would rely on local "survivor" stock as much as possible. If feral colonies are available it would not take that long to redevelop an industry with many hands ketching bees and hiving them on swarm ketching frames, then putting small cell foundation around them, and working them up. Malcom writes: 3. In rural villages with established populations of bees in traditional hives made of narrow woven baskets covered with wood ash as a wattle, would you recommend immediate transfer to Langstroth moveable-frame hives and elimination of the traditional hives as is currently proposed? Reply: Not necessarily. Malcom continues: If not, what would you recommend with reference to developing sustainable and appropriate beekeeping in this setting? Reply: Have them also ketch fresh ferals from the field and mount them onto swarm ketching frames, surround with natural small cell foundation, work hives up and then compare, side by side. Then let them make the change if they want too! Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Small Cell Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:36:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen Biology (was Banking of virgin queens - advisable?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Aaron, of course, is right and I stand humbly corrected. :) It was supposed be OVARIOLES not ovaries. I am glad this was picked up. I have another question on this topic: is the number of ovarioles what determines the ultimate size of the queen or the age of the larva that results in the bigger queen? I ask this because I've heard/read that colonies headed smaller queens sometimes outproduce other colonies. Mating is the other side of the coin but this may be due to better genetics allowing potentially fewer - since from a smaller queen - harder working workers outshine their peers. Waldemar Long Island, NY >>All queens have 2 ovaries. Waldemar's statement should read, "an indicator of how many OVARIOLES would become functional." :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:15:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Traditional vs Modern Beekeeping Methods in Iraq MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee wrote: > I would rely on local "survivor" stock as much as possible. > If feral colonies are available it would not take that long > to redevelop an industry... I have to support that view. Not so sure about 'small cell', but it must be sensible to preserve local "survivor" stock - or any local stock for that matter. In a world where so much genetic material is being lost, we should not try to impose anything on local communities who may have something far more valuable than we could have ever dreamt about. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:50:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Queen Biology (was Banking of virgin queens - advisable?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/06/05 18:12:35 GMT Daylight Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> I used to have a strain of Italian hybrids which had big fat queens, and produced nothing but swarms. I now have A.m.m., with small slim queens, which do far better. It seems the queen's build has little or nothing to do with her fertility or the usefulness of her strain. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:40:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: multiple swarm question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by kathycoxusa@COMCAST.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previusly posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=DD0A7E61) (56 lines) ------------------- From: kathycoxusa@comcast.net To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: multiple swarm question Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:04:39 +0000 Hive A swarms. Old queen and 40% of the hive are now Hive B. If Hive B swarms, does the old queen, if she is still alive and not superceded, swarm out again? -- Kathy Cox Bloomfield Bees & Bouquets Sebastopol 707-823-2804 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:00:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lannie D. Ballard" Subject: Trees for bees Is the Catalpa Tree (Indian Bean Tree) and the Paradise Tree any good for honey bees pollen, nectar? Can not find much on the web one place says yes the next no can any one help me on this. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:59:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Trees for bees In-Reply-To: <200506162300.j5GMTVX4010463@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Both answers are right, the bees love them for nectar and pollen but their are not enough trees for a surplus. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:39:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Trees for bees In-Reply-To: <200506162300.j5GMTVX4010463@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" According to John H. Lovell's "Honey Plants Of North America" 1926, Catalpa (Catalpa Speciosa) can be a good honey producing tree but doesn't go into details. He doesn't mention the Paradise tree. George- At 07:00 PM 6/16/05 -0400, you wrote: >Is the Catalpa Tree (Indian Bean Tree) and the Paradise Tree any good for >honey bees pollen, nectar? Can not find much on the web one place says yes >the next no can any one help me on this. > >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:21:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Barnett Subject: Re: Trees for bees In-Reply-To: <200506162300.j5GMTVX4010463@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jun 16, 2005, at 6:00 PM, Lannie D. Ballard wrote: > Is the Catalpa Tree (Indian Bean Tree) This tree grows in south central Alabama's black belt soil, and bees work it, both flowers and foliage nectaries, which I believe (not know!) that they collect both nectar and pollen; howver i have never seen them in sufficient numbers at one location to make much difference. > and the Paradise Tree any good for > honey bees pollen, nectar? Looking up the Paradise tree (which I had never heard of) on the internet, this site was interesting to me; another mentioned that butterflies work it, but its growth is apparently limited to Zone 9 in Florida. The URL http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/470816/ Robert Barnett Birmingham, Ala :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:48:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Noble Subject: Re: Queen Biology (was Banking of virgin queens - advisable?) "Then again, if there's a chance the bees will choose a less than optimally aged larva there is also a chance the bees will choose an optimally aged larva. The thing is, chance is introduced when it need not be." A Morris This goes to the question that I have about allowing colonies to produce their own queens as in the case of banking queens or in the case of making splits. The question is, given a frame of eggs and at least some larvae younger than three days, and some older than three days, what are the chances the bees will choose the younger larvae to make queens, given the obvious survival benefit to choosing younger larvae. I would think this would have been studied. In my own very limited experience, when by accident or design I have allowed a colony to make their own queen, I have been pleasantly surprised at the result. Is this just blind luck? Steve Noble :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:45:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Almer's Apiary Subject: Re: Filtering Honey In-Reply-To: <000501c57227$367d4ec0$11bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An opinion on the honey warmer.... If you use your warmer full time you might consider using more than one light bulb. With one, you close the lid and 2 minutes later the bulb could fail. 3 days later you come back for your liquid honey and it is still crystallized. Even better and what I did was purchasing a cheap heater (preferably with a fan) and use it instead of light bulbs. I set it to "full on" so make sure the one you use can be set "full on" (or at least reach your desired temperature before turning off) then turn the power to it on and off with a good thermostat that will switch the added current and inductance (over that of a light bulb[s]). Light bulbs are not as cheap as you might think over a few years and they heat the cavity more slowly. It works for me! Bob Fanning Beekeeper Huntsville, Al USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:22:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen Biology (was Banking of virgin queens - advisable?) In-Reply-To: <200506171448.j5HEmJjX017491@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Steve asks... > what are the chances the bees will choose the younger > larvae to make queens, given the > obvious survival benefit to choosing younger larvae. The answer here is that in an 'emergency' situation the bees will choose the oldest larva that they can 'get away with'. This results in the shortest time without an egg layer, it does not matter to the bees how good a quality this quickly raised queen is, because once she is laying and fresh bees are available, the 'scrub' queen can easily be superseded without any further loss of egg laying. So in fact the younger larvae that we beekeepers would choose is the poorer survival strategy for the bee colony in an un-managed situation. > when by accident or design I have allowed a colony to > make their own queen, I have > been pleasantly surprised at the result. Bees have been making their own queens quite successfully for millions of years. Queen suppliers do a great deal of planning to work along with the bees natural instincts, but also produce much larger numbers of queen that the colonies would do if left to their own devices. The trouble seems to start when a beekeepers spots a queencell... The first thing he does is reach for a hive tool and destroy it, when the first thing to do is to think 'why is this queencell (or cells) here ?'. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 5.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:20:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: URL for radar study rebuttal Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On May 19th I posted on BEE-L a rebuttal to conclusions reached by the group that conducted the radar study of bee flight paths. Thanks to Barry Birkey, one can now find a more complete statement of my position on that matter at: www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/radar.htm Circumstances change. Six months ago I received an invitation to participate at the Third European Congress on Social Insects in St. Petersburg, Russia two months from now. That invitation included the following: Plenary Speaker: "Odor and honey bee exploitation of food crops" Symposium Speaker: "The exciting potential of remote feral bee colonies for Varroa coexistence" (In the symposium, "Can European Honeybees Coexist with Varroa Mites?") Symposium Organizer: "Honeybees and Flowers" Malcolm Sanford will also be there (as organizer of a workshop or round table discussion): "Honey Bees and Social Insects on the Web: Global Communication, Regional Networks, High School and University Education Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* * "...the intensity of the conviction that a hypothesis is true has * no bearing on whether it is true or not." * * Peter Medawar (1979) ******************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:16:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Honey standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At the end of long > trails of e-mails and correspondences, Tony Roma's acknowledged the > mistake. They decided to take immediate corrective actions. They are > placing stickers on current inventory and making new labels for all > products manufactured after May 25. The new label says Honey, > Molasses,........ . Golly! I guess we really started something, and I hope we made friends, not enemies along the way. Truth in labelling is important IMO, but after all, they are using our product, but can easily strike honey from the label in the future if they find honey to be hard to understand and beekeepers to be a disagreeable lot. allen P.S. Apologies to those who worried when I dropped out of sight. I left in a hurry for a two-week sailing trip on the West coast and, although I had planned to take the laptop, I left my computer at home at the last moment due to weight and space considerations. Interestingly, I had assumed that, since I was at sea or on a wilderness coast, I'd have little opportunity for contact, but was surprised at how many small, remote ports have free wireless. Access is everywhere. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:32:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Honey standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But it is not the job of a buyer for a grocery store to > ensure honey meets those bottom line standards and he > has nor the equipment nor the skills to do that. Two years ago at the ABF meeting, at a very poorly attended but very important session on honey quality, the packer presenting the talk mentioned that Wal-Mart requires suppliers to provide a plate count of anaerobic bacteria, among other things. A buyer *can* require a supplier provide documentation of analysis for *any* honey property, but each additional test adds to cost and narrows the field of potential suppliers. As a result the main pressure to demand proof of quality comes from fear of liability, bad press, or regulatory or consumer demands. Also, I believe CFIA routinely does microscopic evaluations of yeast content, and many other random tests, and I imagine that USDA or another US agency does the same. Just because they do not say anything most of the time does not mean they are not watching. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:40:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Queen Biology (was Banking of virgin queens - advisable?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The answer here is that in an 'emergency' situation the bees will choose > the > oldest larva that they can 'get away with'. This results in the shortest > time without an egg layer... makes sense and this is what everyone says, *but* has anyone proven it? The debate raged here a few years back, and at that time, I actually joined IBRA and paid for a literature search but could find *nothing* to substantiate the claim. Apparently no one has investigated this in anything approaching a scientific manner. Is this belief and rationalization truth, or is it, like so much bee lore, a part-truth, or even a fantasy? allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:48:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bumble bee housekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "Bumble bees have a number of natural enemies... Apparently they are subject to parasites, too. A bumble bee specialist who spoke at a Calgary meeting reported that (as I recall) virtually all that he examined had some parasite or another and yet they manage. These are tough bees! allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:15:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Traditional vs Modern Beekeeping Methods in Iraq MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/06/2005 05:01:38 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: > Note: so far Acarapis woodi has not been found in Iraq and > AFB and EFB are present, but apparently not at epidemic levels; > small hive beetle has yet to make an appearance). > 3. In rural villages with established populations of bees in > traditional hives made of narrow woven baskets covered with wood ash > as a wattle, would you recommend immediate transfer to Langstroth > moveable-frame hives and elimination of the traditional hives as is > currently proposed? If not, what would you recommend with reference > to developing sustainable and appropriate beekeeping in this setting? > Wholesale transfer to moveable frame hives without appropriate guidance is probably the fastest way of getting AFB and EFB up to epidemic proportions and thus eliminating the incipient beekeeping industry or forcing it into being dependant on chemicals. Beekeepers are always reluctant to renew brood comb and it is so easy not to with moveable frames in stacks of boxes, thus allowing disease organisms to build up. Depending on what is traditional in that area and the forage available and the habits of the native strain, a life cycle of 2 - 3 years for each colony with renewals from swarms could be indefinitely sustainable and rely only on local inputs. Output would not be maximised but could be high value, including as medicine. There would also be a regular harvest of wax which has a multitude of uses and can be turned into value - added products, often on a small scale as cottage industries. Similarly propolis. This approach keeps the income close to the original producer and may be a way of bringing income and therefore power to the distaff side. The beekeepers would probably do well to supply high quality products in limited quantities for the local market at a good price rather than to over-produce and have to dump surplus through packers onto the over-supplied world market. I can't remember the name of the economist who made a study of the subject as if people mattered (cobblers is in my mind) but he coined the phrase 'small is beautiful' and I think it is appropriate in this instance. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 20:59:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Traditional vs Modern Beekeeping Methods in Iraq MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: "I can't remember the name of the economist who made a study of the subject as if people mattered (cobblers is in my mind) but he coined the phrase 'small is beautiful' and I think it is appropriate in this instance." _Small_is_Beautiful_Economics_as_if_People_Mattered_ by E.F. Schumacher ISBN: 0-06-080352-5 (Paperback) Aaron Morris - thinking size does matter! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:05:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Traditional vs Modern Beekeeping Methods in Iraq MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...thus eliminating the incipient beekeeping industry or forcing it into > being dependant on chemicals... ...and equipment, and supplies, and... Beautifully said, Chris. Sometimes I wonder if we could ever go back. It might be better, and couldn't be worse. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:49:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Queen Biology (was Banking of virgin queens - advisable?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "Then again, if there's a chance the bees will choose a less than > optimally aged larva there is also a chance the bees will choose an > optimally aged larva. The thing is, chance is introduced when it need not > be." A Morris The risk is real but you only have to return to the hive 6 or 7 days after de-queening and then cut out all SEALED cells, leaving just those that are still open, and you have eliminated ALL cells that were certainly started around a larva. All the remaining cells have at least a chance of having being started when they contained either an egg or hatching larva - but the bees may have delayed and only stated some of those days after being made queenless - so also cut out any where the bees seem to have skimped on the wax, leaving just the ones the bees have evidently cared for carefully over the full term. Robin Dartington . :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:53:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen Biology In-Reply-To: <0a9301c57385$23b164c0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen > The debate raged here a few years back, and at that time, I > actually joined IBRA and paid for a literature search but > could find *nothing* to substantiate the claim. Apparently > no one has investigated this in anything approaching a > scientific manner. I agree there is no definite proof, so I will explain how I came to my position of holding such an opinion... There is plenty of evidence that the bees raise queens from larvae that are already 'old' by the time that decisions are made to raise queens from them, purely by inference from emergence timing. We know from calibrated tests that queens raised from different starting points in their development time, vary in performance, with the best being those fed as queens from the first feed. Therefore the bees do not select the best possible quality queen. That being so we have to look for a mechanism that fits the facts that we know. Whatever conclusion that we come to, stems from the premise that whatever the reason, it is good for long term survival and that the prevalence of this reason is due to the degree of success of such a strategy. The selection of a strategy by bees is not a 'logical' process, but a fitness of purpose one. So under marginal conditions (marginal conditions have a stronger effect), those colonies that go for the shorter time to produce a queen have a better survival rate and re-enforce the old larvae selection process. The subsequent supercedure of these scrub queens further enhances this survival rate and so the two features become linked together in the strain that survives best. I came to these conclusions having knowledge of supersedure traits in my local AMM bee stock that are linked to multiple queens, long bee and queen life and local mating. Such traits in bees from my area are much stronger than are reported in other parts of the world and are fundamental in long term survival in an area that is unfavourable for queen mating most of the time. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 5.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:54:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Queen Biology (was Banking of virgin queens - advisable?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/06/05 11:36:04 GMT Daylight Time, gmv47@DIAL.PIPEX.COM writes: <> Robin Dartington . Isn't 6-7 days too long? A queen cell is sealed on the 5th day, so I check them on the 4th, and break down all sealed cells then. According to what I've read, queen quality suffers if they're 'converted' after the first day subsequent to hatching, so I eliminate those, and leave the rest, which should hopefully produce good queens. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:06:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Queen Biology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: >There is plenty of evidence that the bees raise queens from larvae that are >already 'old' by the time that decisions are made to raise queens from them, >purely by inference from emergence timing. > >We know from calibrated tests that queens raised from different starting >points in their development time, vary in performance, with the best being >those fed as queens from the first feed. > >Therefore the bees do not select the best possible quality queen. That being >so we have to look for a mechanism that fits the facts that we know. > > We are assuming that there is actual selection. This appears to be the kind of thing that some computer programmers showed in the distribution of honey, pollen and brood on a frame, that it happens not by selection, but by random distribution that shifts to a set pattern in time. Might the same be here, that larva are given royal jelly in a random way when there is the need for an emergency queen. If so, then it is obvious that the older larva have a better chance of developing into a queen than younger larva. There is a problem with my assumption, which is what is the cell selection feeding process for non emergency queens? I have no idea if there is a different selection process. Might it be the queen's pheromones in the vicinity of recently laid eggs? If royal jelly feeding is controlled by strength of the pheromone, then it would be site specific and young larva would be the most likely to be selected. If there is no queen, then feeding would be more random and less site specific. All conjecture. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:43:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is plenty of evidence that the bees raise queens from larvae that > are > already 'old' by the time that decisions are made to raise queens from > them, > purely by inference from emergence timing. All this logic is based, however, on assumptions that are themselves, IMO, flawed, the least reliable assumption of the set being the assumption that emergence timing is correlated with the age of the larva at the start in more than a loose fashion. In my long experience, I have found that even queens in a batch of apparently well-fed and well-raised queens grafted from larvae of the same size, and presumably the same age, do not necessarily all emerge reliably when expected. I have seen as much as several days difference in batches which were carefully selected, grafted, and managed through their development. This variability may be attributed to many factors, such as variability in genetics in the same batch of eggs, position on the bar, nutrition, etc., but who really knows? Moreover, the assumption is made that the bees have no way of rushing development of some queens. We simply do not know. Logic is fine, but until someone actually makes a scientific, quantitative comparison between grafted queens and emergency queens raised under comparable conditions of season, nutrition, etc., I have to point out that this is merely an unproven hypothesis, and one based on a fairly long chain of potentially shaky reasoning, and not proven fact. Sorry. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:57:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen Biology In-Reply-To: <0b2e01c57414$078a9de0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen > Logic is fine, but until someone actually makes a scientific, > quantitative comparison between grafted queens and emergency > queens raised under comparable conditions of season, nutrition, > etc., I have to point out that this is merely an unproven > hypothesis, and one based on a fairly long chain of potentially > shaky reasoning, and not proven fact. I have no problem at all with your statement above, my reasoning may be shaky, but it is all I have in the absence of definitive data. > the least reliable assumption of the set being the assumption > that emergence timing is correlated with the age of the larva > at the start in more than a loose fashion. I can't give you data, but from my experience over a good many years, the fit of emergence compared to original larva age is quite good. I do not think this part is the shaky bit, I reckon the shakiest assumption is that the bees raise queens under emergency, swarming and supersedure conditions in the same way and same timescale, but I am only considering deliberately raised grafted larva, which is where my experience lies. > the assumption is made that the bees have no way of rushing > development of some queens. This would show up as lack of supersedure in 'early' emerged queens. You have observed a wider variability in emergence time than I have... > This variability may be attributed to many factors, such as > variability in genetics in the same batch of eggs, position > on the bar, nutrition, My conditions are different for two reasons, the physical length of the bar is shorter in UK equipment, but apart from that I deliberately choose not to use the ends of even this shorter bar. Nutrition has played a big part in my queen and drone raising, much extra pollen (over provision) is provided as well as honey diluted 50/50 with water. It would be nice to know the answers, not in order to be proved 'right' or 'wrong', but just to know more definitely. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 5.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:04:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It would be nice to know the answers, not in order to be proved 'right' or > 'wrong', but just to know more definitely. It is not, I'm afraid, just a matter of knowing, 'more definitely'. The fact is that we either know or we do not, and in this case, we just do not know at all. We are just guessing and presenting the guess as fact, even though many experienced and observant beekeepers have found emergency queens to be very satisfactory, and even though we *know* (proven fact) that many raised and/or purchased queens are much less than satisfactory by the time they are raised, caught, stored, transported, stored again and finally introduced to a strange hive. Although a properly raised and properly handled grafted queen may (and I say "may") be a better queen if all has gone well, many are known to be rejected or superseded within a month or two, and the superior qualities claimed may never actually be required in many hobby hives or even many commercial applications. I wonder how many commercial queens raised and shipped actually end up heading successful colonies for a year or more, and how many are lost along the way, rejected by the bees or superseded? I'd bet 50% or more are lost one way or another within 2 months of being produced, and even more are lost by the first winter. That doubles the effective cost of the ones that survive. When all the dust settles, for many of us, emergency queens are the best choice in many situations, since they 1. do not rely on the expertise and trustworthiness of others, 2. do not cost the price of 20 lbs of honey or more, 3. do not require labour and expertise to produce and introduce, 4. have a high success rate, 5. perform as well as or better than purchased queens in many cases. 6. can be produced at will in season 7. require no advance planning, ordering, waiting, multiple trips to the yard, etc. As a hobbyist, I'd be crazy to pay the going price for commercial queens at $20 CAD when honey is at 75c/lb and costs 10c/lb or more to extract. I'd have to produce an extra 31 lbs/hive average to pay for them, assuming all the purchased queens took, and do a lot more work as well, splitting and extracting. I'd much rather do walk-away splits and take my chances. I could raise queens, but that is a whole other job. I've done it, and it can pay off, but I don't need the work or the scheduling. I salute those who choose to do so, but I think they fully earn any gains they get over my lazy method. At this point, I'd like to solicit success and failure stories. I've found that, although most beekeepers have used emergency queens from time to time, and usually with good success, most are reluctant to admit the fact due to the strong (and IMO unjustifiable) prejudice against them. Here's the chance to relate good and bad experiences. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:15:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Queen Biology In-Reply-To: <0b2e01c57414$078a9de0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Allen, > All this logic is based, however, on assumptions that are themselves, > IMO, > flawed, the least reliable assumption of the set being the assumption > that > emergence timing is correlated with the age of the larva at the start in > more than a loose fashion. You do not, however, have nearly the variation in capping time. One can remove a queen and find cells capped after 4 days, or perhaps even 3 days. It does not leave a lot to doubt as to the age of the larvae. This said, it remains true that scientific data is lacking in the assumptions, but they do serve a practical purpose. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:33:32 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Queen Biology (was Banking of virgin queens - advisable?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have another question on this topic: is the number of ovarioles what > determines the ultimate size of the queen or the age of the larva that > results in the bigger queen? Not sure about size but try the following by Prof Jerzy Woyke:- Correlations between the age at which honeybee brood was grafted, characteristics of the resultant queens, and results of insemination. J. apic. Res. 10(1): 45-55 Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:13:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Queen biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since we practice artificial swarming as a method of swarm control, I guess most of our queens are emergency queens. We go thru' the splits 4 days later taking out all except 1 open cell with a grub in it, more to ensure that there is only 1 queen emerges rather than to get rid of queens raised from "too old grubs" (although the chances of the split throwing a virgin swarm are low). The bees seem quite happy with their emergency queens. The ones which supercede later on in the year are usually the artificial swarms with the older queens. Some of the queens produced are smallish, some large. There doesn't seem to be any correlation between size at emergence and honey production next season - production appears to be more tied to mother performance. Alan Riach Edinburgh Scotland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:47:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alan Riach Subject: Radar study - Dance controversy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 2 sides seem firmly arrayed along the lines of "odour theory" and "language theory". I would have thought that both would have been possible in a complementary way. The language theory to get the bees to roughly the right area and the odour theory to allow the bees to home in on the specific food source. Whilst it might seem a little exotic that an insect the size of a bee could contain the capability for language, we should certainly not doubt Mother Nature's ingenuity. Whilst copper bottomed proof for a bee language (in the sense normally understood -mapping,distance etc), may not yet have been obtained, this should not stop investigation -as in all scientific investigation the possibilities improve with the sensitivity of the instrumentation. The "mapping" language theory certainly fulfills certain "desireable features" -location of food sources upwind for instance but of course desireability does not make it so. I would have thought that a rather awkward fact for the odour theorists however, is that bees "dance" in a quite specific way - if they only had to spread the odour message, a severe , simple vibration would seem more efficient If the bees are communicating by odour messages, that could also of course be construed as language. Finally as a practical (very small scale) beekeeper I am thankful that Mother Nature has provided the bees with an efficient way of locating their food source, the exact method is of rather secondary importance, but of course of great interest. Alan Riach Edinburgh Scotland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:07:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen Biology In-Reply-To: <0b6101c57438$7fda7120$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all > We are just guessing and presenting the guess as fact, > even though many experienced and observant beekeepers > have found emergency queens to be very satisfactory, Again your observations are different to mine, One of the reasons for my interest in queen raising, and also breeding of bees (two entirely separate subjects) is the miserable performance and extreme nastiness of queens raised in UK by means like the walk away split. There are other reasons in UK for this not being an ideal strategy, lack of forage continuity, in a short and long term fashion, as well as a short 'summer' season. We are also a crowded island and there is not room for aggressive bees, which are not well tolerated in built up areas by a public that lacks knowledge about bees. In the case of the region that I live in the degree of mongrelisation is high as it is possible for both the Italianised hybrids and AMM type bees to survive, whereas further North the genetics are more stable and further South there is adequate good weather for Italian types to thrive. > we *know* (proven fact) that many raised > and/or purchased queens are much less than > satisfactory by the time they are raised, > caught, stored, transported, stored again > and finally introduced to a strange hive. I would not suggest that we have a perfect record in this respect, however I get the impression that the problem is worse on your side of the pond, I think we may pay a little more attention to quality control and testing, but in the main much of UK queen raising is on a local basis rather than reliance on mailing. I have never been the recipient of any 'run of the mill' queens myself, so I have no yardstick to judge by, but of the queens (mainly breeding stock) that I have received I have had very few failures or supersedures, in fact I have had more stolen than have actually failed, but then the queens involved have mostly been between one and three years of age and have been introduced into nucs rather than full sized colonies, probably with a lot more attention than would occur in large scale re-queening. > I wonder how many commercial queens raised and shipped > actually end up heading successful colonies for a year > or more, and how many are lost along the way, rejected > by the bees or superseded? I would say the greater the distance involved, the greater the chance of failure. I would also suggest that if the distance is long, then the suitability of such queens is brought into question. > As a hobbyist, I'd be crazy to pay the going price for > commercial queens Purchase of queens is rare in UK, it is not a big industry, but our costs would be more like 16 lbs honey per queen, rather than your 31 lbs/hive average. I prefer the situation of bees that supersede and keep their characteristics from generation to generation. This goes along with long queen life, mating at a different season and the possibility of multiple queens laying in the same hive. > I could raise queens, but that is a whole other job. > I've done it, and it can pay off, but I don't need > the work or the scheduling. In UK we consider that queen raising is part of beekeeping, rather than a separate issue. I have another reason as well... I enjoy it ! Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 5.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:14:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >...the miserable performance and extreme nastiness of queens > raised in UK by means like the walk away split. There are other reasons in > UK for this not being an ideal strategy, lack of forage continuity, in a > short and long term fashion, as well as a short 'summer' season. I guess that once again we find that local effects can result in differing observations and conclusions, as do the differing goals of beekeepers, even, sometimes, those in the same region. > I would say the greater the distance involved, the greater the chance of > failure. I would also suggest that if the distance is long, then the > suitability of such queens is brought into question. This, again depends on the beekeeper's goals, resources, and other factors. No one solution fits all, and we need to question whether what is fact for another beekeeper is true in our own situation. For me, emergency queens are a routine part of my management. We've not noticed any particular change in temper when we do walk-away splits, but, then our stock is different from yours. I would assume, however, that over years of using the technique we would see a change in the stock since we would be selecting for bees that do a good job of recovering from dequeening if we were not bringing in new stock. Our stock is primarily from Kona carniolan and Australian italian strains which seem to deal well with sudden dequeening and raise offspring which is true to type. >> As a hobbyist, I'd be crazy to pay the going price for >> commercial queens > > Purchase of queens is rare in UK, it is not a big industry, but our costs > would be more like 16 lbs honey per queen, rather than your 31 lbs/hive > average. I used the wholesale bulk price. I suppose that one could use the retail price, but I figure the difference between commodity price and the store or farm-gate price is attributed to the packaging and marketing, not the production. I also did not account for the inevitable losses of purchased queens. > In UK we consider that queen raising is part of beekeeping, rather than a > separate issue. I have another reason as well... I enjoy it ! I enjoyed it too, but now have other priorities and have reduced my beekeeping to a very simple activity that makes few scheduling or labour demands on me while producing increase and honey at lowest cost per unit. When we bred and produced our own stock we did see an immediate improvement in honey production, but then went pollinating, and our needs changed. We needed lots of queens and bees early, and our people were fully occupied without the extra work and stress of queen rearing. We purchased stock. After that, I retired, and my priorities again changed. I now split and use purchased queens when they are handy, beg cells from my friends who have extra sometimes, and I do walk-away splits when the other opportunities are not available. FWIW, the walk-aways I did last year on Auzzie italian package colonies yielded over 100 lbs last year, wintered well, and gave three large splits each this spring... and I expect they will need splitting again before I go east in a few weeks. To split, I just lift off a box with brood and set it aside. The bees do the rest. Yup, occasionally one fails to make a queen and must be recombined, but what doesn't fail occasionally? allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:27:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Radar study - Dance controversy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I suggest those interested reread Karl Von Frich's "Bees"( 1950) book (116 pages) and then read "Anatomy of a Controversy"( 1990) by Wenner & Wells (399 pages). I think the second book provides the most compelling evidence. I know both Joe Graham (ABJ editor) & Kim Flottum (Bee Culture editor) read BEE-L. I know new editions of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" and "ABC XYZ of Beekeeping" are being worked on. It is my opinion that Adrian Wenner's research be included as well as Von Frish's in upcoming editions. I believe *reasonable doubt* has been established by Adrian Wenner about dance hypothesis alone. Sincerely, Bob Harrison "What we do not know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:07:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nicholas Doumanoff Subject: Sugar method and Varroa In-Reply-To: <001801c57488$0d86f5d0$4462443d@new1> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been reading various accounts of using powdered sugar treatment for varroa (hindering the mites ability to hold onto the bee) and am interested in other opinions. I've read accounts where they sprinkle sugar on each frame and others where they pour sugar onto the tops of the frames and brush it in between the frames with the bee brush. Blended granulated sugar seems a better option than powdered sugar to me. Would this treatment then also be possible even during honey collection? Nick Warwick New York :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:23:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Radar study - Dance controversy I'm with Bob. My wife got me Adrian's book for a present a year or two ago, and I can't see anyone who has any objectivity and a background in science who would just ignore what he has to say. I recommend it heartily, and if I'm not mistaken, you can order it from him for a very reasonable price. It's one of those books which help a person grow. Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:18:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Radar study - Dance controversy Comments: To: Alan Riach MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alan wrote, >The 2 sides seem firmly arrayed along the > lines of "odour theory" and "language > theory". Hi alan, I am not entirely sure how these "camps", became camps. >I would have thought that both would have > been possible in a complementary way. >The language theory to get the bees to >roughly the right area and the >odour theory to allow the bees to home in >on the specific food source. This is precicely the relationship of bee dance and odor. Von Frisch documented over many years the level of acuity of bee senses and the ability of the bee to communicate the location of desireable forage. He also documented the mechanism of reinforcement of better forage and the bee's ability to distinguish between differing yet co-located sources. He has written tremendous deal of very interesting material, which i suggest to anyone who keeps bees and wishes to actually learn about them. In sum, bee finds forage. Bee works forage and returns to hive. Bee performs waggle dance. Bees pay close attention to dance, and to bee's odor on hairs and pollen. Bees go to investigate, and return reinforcing forage with more bees doing same dance to same spot(s). Even more bees investigate, and process continues and reinforces largest forage with the most distinguishing features (color, smell, sweetness of nectar, size of forage). There is a lot of knowledge documented in his research, from spectral analysis of bee's visible spectrum, how odor reinforces differentvforage choices, how bees can recognize and plan for a moving source of forage, how as individuals the bees choose floral sources, how bees interpret and communicate obstacles (ex. mountains), relationship of the sun to bee language and habits, bee's ability to know location of sun even at night when below horizon, effects of gravity and how thing change when these things change, etc etc. Don't avoid his work. Its a must read. >Mother Nature has provided the bees with >an efficient way of locating their food >source, the exact method is of rather >secondary importance, but of course of >great interest. I don't agree. To bee a true beemaster, to be able to understand real seasonal management, and to learn how to keep you bees successfully despite all the pitfalls and failures that abound, you MUST LEARN INTIMATELY everything you can about the bee's ecology, your floral locale, and seasons and weather history and prediction. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family HoneybFarms http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/ http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:17:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Radar study - Dance controversy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Don't avoid his work. Its a must read. Well said, Scot. Frankly, I haven't read Adrian's book for a few decades, and have not read all of Von Frisch, but I gather Adrian doesn't have problems with Von Frisch and his work ...up to a point. If I understand Adrian, Von Frisch had it right until he decided to describe the motions of the bees as a language and ascribed causal relationships. At that point he upped the ante , for proof, and -- in the view of some -- failed to prove his thesis. I admire Adrian for his observations and criticisms. This is how science is supposed to work, but ask Galileo: the price of questioning dogma is sometimes high. Was Von Frisch right? Is Adrian right? No matter, IMO. There is a good chance neither has the key. The world of insects is very different from the world of man. allen Now, I'm sure we'll hear from Adrian... or Ruth -- or both. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:15:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Marla Spivak Class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I am leaving in the morning to attend Marla Spivak's queen rearing class in Nebraska. Are others on Bee-L attending? Michael Bush (Beesource) is attending he told me. For those which do not read Beesource and do not know who Michael Bush is I will share. Michael Bush is the most prolific poster on Beesource.com.. I believe over 3,000 posts. Commercial beekeeper meets small cell beekeeper. I look forward to our meeting. As usual I hope we can "agree to disagree on a few issues". Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:53:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Marla Spivak Class In-Reply-To: <200506200142.j5K1dObC008980@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not to take away from Michael Bush, because he is an excellent bee keeper and wonderful sharer of knowledge and I count him as one of my better online beekeeping friends (I don't count many as friends, just associates), but michael's operation has remained at about maximum 50 hives since he began 25-30 years ago. Michael isn't a commercial beekeeper, he is a large scale hobbyist beekeeper who likes to dabble with anything experimental expecially when its organic or med/chem free. Just to keep the record straight, I only have 48 hives currently starting from 4 hives 2 years ago after returning to beekeeping after a few year absense. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, FL USA http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ mailto:scot@linuxfromscratch.org . ` , ` ' .,';`,. ``. '. _/^\_ :;.,';`'.,` `., ' '`, /_____\ .:.,"'` /\_____/\ .,:`'" \###/.,';` :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:48:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Australian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Terry Brown (Brown's Bees Australia) is leaving for Australia tomorrow. My partner and I had an enjoyable visit with Terry. We looked through hives, supered hives and bottled honey. Whatever project we were doing Terry jumped in to help. On Saturday we took Terry to see the sites of Kansas City and then to a barbecue. I learned quite a bit about Australian beekeeping and we hope Terry learned from us. Terry also brought pictures and information from a beekeeping equipment trade show in Argentina he attended last week. Australian import update: The Australian bees still are not showing varroa problems and remain untreated although we treated all the bees which were in California with the Australian bees as they did and still do have serious varroa issues. The Australian bees are packing in the honey. I am not surprised about honey production as they are from Italian stock but I must admit I thought by now the Australian bee would have serious varroa issues. Not yet and I believe they will finnish the season without needing treatment (pulling supers and treating). One needs to remember these bees were on a strong 6 week flow in Feb/March and then on an intense apple flow in April. We have made two nucs from these bees to keep from swarming. Now they are on an intense clover flow. Brooding up now for five months. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:39:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Marla Spivak Class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot said: Michael isn't a commercial beekeeper, I know Michael is not a commercial beekeeper. Michael said all his hives are 4.9mm cell size. Reason I called Michael a small cell beekeeper. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:52:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Queen Biology In-Reply-To: <004801c574e9$edbe7090$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen > > Purchase of queens is rare in UK, it is not a big > > industry, but our costs would be more like 16 lbs > > honey per queen, rather than your 31 lbs/hive average. > > I used the wholesale bulk price. Yes, so did I... I reckon referring things to honey prices give a much more accurate picture and enable better comparisons to be made over time and distance. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 5.02 (stable)> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 09:20:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hi Allen & all > We are just guessing and presenting the guess as fact, Early last week before this subject discussed at Bee_L, I wrote a note about walk away splits and queens quality to be published in Alberta Newsletter "July issue". It was based on a recently published research paper "Apidologie, 2004, 35:275-282". The researchers found that dequeened colonies raised more queen cells from 3 day old larvae in comparison to 2 and 4 day old larvae. the number of produced queen cells averaged 33 cells/hive with only 27 cells capped. The average number of emerged cells was only 13 queens/hive. Through this process, researchers found that high proportions of queen cells raised from younger larvae were destroyed. The greatest number of emerged queens were raised from 3 day old larvae. These results suggest that emergency queens are not the best quality based on the worker selection of older larvae to raise those queens under emergency situation. As known through previous research cited by Weatherhead, the number of ovarioles is correlated to larval age. Younger grafted larvae produce queens with high number of ovarioles. The number of ovarioles in the ovary is dependant on: 1) bee race 2) age of grafted larvae 3) amount and quality of royal jell fed to larvae used to raise queens Having said that, I would suggest that the introduction of new queens reared from younger larvae will be much better for the bee colony and will ensure high quality queens in the new splits. medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:46:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hubers Subject: Re: Queen Biology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-196341E2 Allen Dick wrote: >FWIW, the walk-aways I did last year on Auzzie italian package colonies >yielded over 100 lbs last year, wintered well, and gave three large splits >each this spring... and I expect they will need splitting again before I go >east in a few weeks. To split, I just lift off a box with brood and set it >aside. The bees do the rest. Yup, occasionally one fails to make a queen >and must be recombined, but what doesn't fail occasionally I wonder if Allen could share with us some helpful details of exactly hoe he does a walk away split? The thing that troubles me most is how you insure that there are eggs in the queenless half ? Also, does he practice rotation of the hive bodies prior to the split? And how is the timing of this process determined ? Is it relative to what flowers are blooming, or relevant to how strong the hive bodies appear on a tip-over inspection? Does it matter if there are active swarm cells or not? Is the "walk-away" carried to a remote apiary or is it kept in the same apiary such that the foragers can return to the original hive location? Thanks for any insights, Ernie Huber -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 06/17/05 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:46:36 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Getting a queen out of a tree - possible? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Does anyone have a clever way to get a tree colony queen? Here is the scenario: 1. The colony is in a medium size tree. The oval entrance is ~2"-3" wide x ~15" high - barely wide enough to get my hand inside. It's at waist level off the ground. 2. I've removed some of the dead wood inside the entrance and vacuumed off a few thousand bees. The main nest section appears to be ABOVE the entrance. I am guessing the queen is there. 3. Cutting the tree down, drilling holes above the entrance, and enlarging the holes are not an option. I would like to capture this queen. If I can't, the only option I have is to reduce the entrance to a cone and set up a bait hive next to it. I have a bottle of Honey Bee Robber used to drive bees out of honey supers. I don't use it for supers but was wondering if perhaps spraying it in the tree could drive the queen out? Thanks, Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:54:40 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Honey bee blood pH. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Does anyone know the pH of honey bee blood? And if oxalic acid treatment changes it substantially? I am having a discussion with a fellow beekeeper and don't have access to sources. A google search did not turn it up. Thanks, Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:04:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Walk-Away Splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I wonder if Allen could share with us some helpful details of exactly hoe > he does a walk away split? I detail that at http://www.honeybeeworld.com under 'selected topics'. > The thing that troubles me most is how you > insure that there are eggs in the queenless half ? That can be a problem. Weight is a hint, and a frame of eggs can be added if there is doubt. > Also, does he practice > rotation of the hive bodies prior to the split? Sometimes, if the top boxes are very heavy, but not if I have arrived in time. > And how is the timing of this process determined ? Is it relative to what > flowers are blooming, or > relevant to how strong the hive bodies appear on a tip-over inspection? Yup. I always do it on a decent flow, in good weather. I do tip forward to ensure that there are good populations below. I also have auger holes in each brood box and that, along with entrance activity, tells me a lot. > Does it matter if there are active swarm cells or not? I try to get there before swarming, and always add lots of boxes early to prevent it. Swarm cells can be a good thing for splitting, but splitting does not always forestall a swarm, I am told. If swarming has begun, however, the cells can be put to good use. Many anal beekeepers will tell you not to use them, but Dave and I concur that bees that can get strong enough to swarm have many good characteristics, and besides, they are there, and the price is right. > Is the "walk-away" > carried to a remote apiary or is it kept in the same apiary such that the > foragers can return to the original hive location? Depends on the amount of flow and flight and how serious you are about keeping hives even. There are tricks to distribute bees between hives by leaning boards in front of entrances, rotating hives, pulling overly strong hives back a few feet, etc. I also cover that in some of my essays mentioned above. Moving to another yard is definitely and option. Very good questions. I hope I have answered them. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:15:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Early last week before this subject discussed at Bee_L, I wrote a note > about walk away splits and queens quality to be published in Alberta > Newsletter "July issue". It was based on a recently published research > paper .. Thanks for that Medhat. I've been looking for something definite on the topic for a long time now. Without diminishing the importance of such a study, or arguing with its observations, I must say that I presume that it is only one study, and covers one specific location, one specific strain, and one specific time in the season. Maybe not? I'd love to read it. Considering that we have just discussed here the apparent fact that some strains of bees in some situations seem to do well after raising emergency cells, and others definitely do not, I am hoping others will replicate the study soon. I also surmise from your comments that only the age of the larvae was determined, not the properties of the resulting queens. That is something that IMO bears some study as well. Have you any proven data on the quality of emergency queens, and any data on their performance compared to mail-order queens? Again, thanks for the tip, and if you can, maybe email me a copy. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:10:40 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: Walk-Away Splits In-Reply-To: <007101c575ba$1b491b70$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks for the excellent posts. Somewhere I have squirreled away some old posts of Dave Green on walk-away splits, which the archives might reveal. I'm just a sideliner, but splits with swarm cells have done well for me, tho my primary queen selection criterion is survival without treatment. Judging by the increasing number of feral bee removals and calls I'm getting, the swarms that got away are more often thriving. I've been blending Russians in with my motley genetic crew since the first year they were commercially available, and I find a couple Russian characteristics surfacing in most of my stock. First, the Russians almost always have at least one queen cell with larva working.....which could be helpful for walk-away splits. Second, the Russians seem more tolerant of multiple virgin queens, and maybe laying ones too. I clip my queens, and crowd older queens in nucs near the house to force swarm cells, so I often spot the primary swarm attempt and then split the hive after they've come back. I often find multiple virgins, and undamaged queen cells even days after a swarm attempt. If I miss the primary they sometimes have multiple swarm clusters issue simultaneously. One had at least 6 virgins, and separated and recombined several times into different clusters before I got them hived. In several cases I saw multiple queens. Some virgins I marked were mated, others I never saw again. I spent 2 afternoons with my 2-frame observation hive at an event, and lo and behold there was a second unmarked queen acting like a virgin but bigger than an unmated queen. The marked 'piddly', poorly mated but well-bred Russian queen was brought especially for the small observation box. Somehow in the process of several moves over a few weeks, she was superseded and the new queen managed to get mated. I had noticed a broken down supersedure-type cell on one frame, tho I put it off as standard Russian behavior. Over the course of about 10 hours of observation in a 30 hour period, she went from a wandering, unattended bee to a laying queen with retinue, while the old queen continued to lay. At first when she stopped and workers approached she would hunch up and freeze while they looked her over. As she wandered she would occasionally stop a worker for some food. If she got within about an inch of the old queen she'd turn and move away quickly. As the hours progressed, more workers would approach when she stopped, tho at first when they tried to groom her she would flick her leg away or her wings, tho still somewhat hunched. Occasionally she'd look in a cell, and later she'd look then back her abdomen part way into a different cell. By the end of the period I saw her perform the full look, walk up, and back in completely routine of a mature queen, tho at the time I couldn't see if she'd laid an egg. She also collected a full retinue and permitted their grooming, tho she still remained a little hunched sometimes. After she'd showed the laying behavior she wandered over to the back of the old queens retinue bees, then turned and moved off quickly. The old queen was facing her, but neither she nor her retinue bees showed a discernable change in behavior,. Today, 24 hours later, they are both moving and laying, tho haven't had time to really study them. It'll be interesting to see how long they co-exist. Several years ago with Italian stock in that hive, the old queen was balled and torn to bits before the new virgin had mated. Another virgin swarm queen chewed into all the other queen cells as soon as she emerged (Italian). I'm sure there's considerable variation, but I wonder if life in Siberia has selected higher queen-queen tolerance in our Russians. Makes sense to me, no time to waste in the far north..... Still a natural historian at heart...Carolyn in SC allen dick wrote: >> I wonder if Allen could share with us some helpful details of exactly >> hoe >> he does a walk away split? > > > I detail that at http://www.honeybeeworld.com under 'selected topics'. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:19:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Ireland Subject: Re: Getting a queen out of a tree - possible? In-Reply-To: <20050620.084648.1308.159414@webmail38.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Take a rag and quarter it. Stick each quarter on the end of a coat hanger that has been bent straight. Put the bee robber liquid on one and stick it as far up in the tree as you can reach and wait. Every 3 minutes or so introduce another, trying to get in an area away from where you already put one previously. The bees should be driven out. If the hole contihues down in the tree as well, I put a few at the bottom so bees don't run past the opening and down further in the tree. Works very well if you can get above the nest or near the top. DO NOT get any bee robber on the opening as you stick the rags in. Good luck, James Ireland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:18:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Forbes Subject: swarm capture advice, please In-Reply-To: <007501c575bb$9e7f6390$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm a new beekeeper (only in my second year) and I got a call from a local about a swarm settling on his house. By the time I got there the bees had made their way under his roof two stories up. With the rain we've had here in Saskatchewan the house has been inaccessible for most of a week, so the bees have been there a week and a half now. I would assume that they would have made comb and would have brood under way, since the carragana trees have been blooming and dandelion are plentiful, so would it be possible to open the facing board on the roof, cut the comb out, and attach it to frames in a nuc with fishing line, thereby adding a new colony? Is it worth bothering with an operation like this two stories off the ground? What should I be looking for (the farmer is okay with me prying the board off his roof in order to get at the bees)? Steve Forbes in (usually sunny) Saskatchewan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:54:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Getting a queen out of a tree - possible? Comments: cc: waldig@netzero.com In-Reply-To: <20050620.084648.1308.159414@webmail38.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-16746AB7 At 11:46 AM 6/20/2005, you wrote: >I have a bottle of Honey Bee Robber used to drive bees out of honey >supers. I don't use it for supers but was wondering if perhaps spraying >it in the tree could drive the queen out? I have had some success making bees abscond from a tree by smoking them heavily with Honey Robber soaked newspaper in the top of the smoker. It took a couple hours, but the bees did settle on a nearby tree just like a swarm (minus those I had vacuumed). They had however only been in the tree for a few days. I've had less luck with those that have well established hives or those swarms in much larger cavities. -Tim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 6/17/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:01:39 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Getting a queen out of a tree - possible? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks for your input, Tim. These bees are pretty entrenched. They were first noticed last year and have already swarmed this spring. Unfortunately, some dead wood inside the hole is blocking access to the main nest or I'd remove the combs by hand and vacuum up the queen. How do you keep the soaked paper from burning or do you not light a fire and only use the smoker to blow Honey Robber vapors into the cavity? Waldemar Long Island, NY At 11:46 AM 6/20/2005, you wrote: >>I have had some success making bees abscond from a tree by smoking them heavily with Honey Robber soaked newspaper in the top of the smoker. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:31:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: swarm capture advice, please In-Reply-To: <20050620191856.41943.qmail@web52303.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-637553FD > so would it be possible to >open the facing board on the roof, cut the comb out, >and attach it to frames in a nuc with fishing line I wouldn't use fishing line. It will be permanent. Use instead, use string. The bees will fasten the comb into the frame overnight, and remove the string by chewing it apart. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.7.6/19 - Release Date: 6/16/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:07:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. wrote: > These results suggest that emergency queens are not the best >quality based on the worker selection of older larvae to raise those >queens under emergency situation. > > How do the workers "select" older larvae? Even better question is why would they select a less desirable outcome than would be had by younger larvae, especially since they only benefit by having a new queen one day earlier? Darwin is not at work here. Medhat, I realize should be asking the researchers, but any help appreciated. It would certainly be key in our understanding of swarms. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:04:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: swarm capture advice, please Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Steve wrote: >>I got a call from a local about a swarm settling on his house. ...the bees had made their way under his roof two stories up. ...Is it worth bothering with an operation like this two stories off the ground? What should I be looking for...? Two stories off the ground is high for most people - be very careful if you decide to use a ladder. A colony is not worth a broken neck. Scaffolding is much safer but you may need help to haul it to the site and set it up. Roofs are tricky. I'd examine the roof from inside the attic if you can. Do you know if the attic is finished? If the attic is finished, the bees will have a very long cavity. It's fairly easy to open the ceiling in the attic for access. Put your ear to the attic ceiling first or use a stethoscope to pinpoint the nest's location. Remember that buzzing carries in hollow spaces over many feet, so look for a spot where its intensity is the greatest. Personally, I doubt the bees are in the roof as roofs get extremely hot. More likely, the bees are in the eave. Removing the facia board should expose the nest. Smoke the bees to jam their alarm communications. If you don't have one, I recommend you make a bee vac (beesource.com has a nice design; I made mine from cardboard boxes & reinforced it with wood to reduce the weight). I can't imagine doing a removal without a bee vac. When you've vacuumed up most of the bees, it will be easier to hold and cut loose the combs. The combs will be new and on delicate so use a sharp hive tool or a knife to cut them. I don't tie combs into frames as I find that frames drawn from scratch have a better cell pattern. Instead, I put an extra empty box over the inner cover and lean the combs with honey and brood against its walls and each other, separating the combs with 3/8" wood sticks. Bees come up through the hole in the inner cover care for the brood and take the honey down, as needed. When the combs are empty 2-3 weeks later, I melt them down. Good luck. Whatever you decide, it's best to plan the operation ahead step by step in great detail. And make a list of tools and materials to bring with you. I've had a couple of instances where I forgot to bring an extra box or matches for the smoker... Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:10:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Medhat wrote: >> These results suggest that emergency queens are not the best >quality based on the worker selection of older larvae to raise those >queens under emergency situation. And rather than create an emergency situation, I'd be very interested in a clever way to induce supercedure since then the 'failing' queen would lay eggs into queen cups and the larva age would be 'best'? I suppose inducing swarm cells would produce queens of the supercedure quality - or is this not the case? Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 07:24:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology In-Reply-To: <42B802EB.3010608@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Bill Said, Darwin is not at work here. In fact Darwin is at work. This is an emergency situation imposed on the colony. The response is to have a queen as soon as possible for survivorship. The opposite to this situation is raising superseding queens. Supersedure queens are raised from larvae as young as it can be. Although these queens are raised under their mothers' nose, the quality is superior. This is where you can say Darwin is at work. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:38:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. wrote: > Supersedure queens are raised from larvae as young as it can be. >Although these queens are raised under their mothers' nose, the quality is >superior. This is where you can say Darwin is at work. > > How do they select them? What is at work? I should have kept Darwin out of this. My prior post on this guessed (scientific term for hypothesized) that it is random if pheromones are involved. That royal jelly is fed in the area of the strongest pheromone so you will get younger larva fed with a queen present than without one present since the queen will be in the area of the youngest larva. If no queen is around, the feeding will be more random and the larva will be older and you will get a quicker queen. No rational or behavioral selection involved. Maybe there has been research on this, since it seems to be an easy experiment. Or is something else at work here? I know the books I read on the honey/pollen,/brood distribution pattern implied selection while the truth was it was more random and ended that way because of the way bees feed larva. My problem with the research is the term "select" which implies some rational decision has been made. I ascribe it to chance (combined with the presence or lack of the queen pheromone). Which is Darwinism to an extent. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:01:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill Truesdell wrote: >Even better question is why would they select a less desirable = outcome >than would be had by younger larvae, especially since they only = benefit >by having a new queen one day earlier? Darwin is not at work here. Hmmm. Are we sure we know what the bees consider "desirable", and = why? Often we don't. Darwin may be at work here after all. Walter Weller :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:58:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Lord Subject: bee trucks and loaders I am a 250 hive beekeeper and it is time to move past the old pickup truck. I pollinate cucumbers and watermelons - all within 30 miles of home - but I am ready to move up to a larger truck. I need moderate weight capacity but am interested in mobibility so I am looking at 3/4 and 1 ton flat beds. I am also looking at loaders - have contacted the Ezyloader people but get no response (are they still in business?). I am interested in other people's opinions and experiences with bee trucks and loaders. Bill Lord Louisburg, North Carolina :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:14:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "waldemar ' I'd be very interested in a clever way to induce supercedure since then the 'failing' queen would lay eggs into queen cups and the larva age would be 'best'' This is very easy - just relocate some brood frames to a position in the hive where the queen will not patrol the combs (and so not leave foot pheromone) and bees will not pass thru on their way in and out of the hive. The regular way to manage my long boxes is to move 3 to 9 deep brood frames right to the back of the box once the spring expansion of the brood nest has reached its peak - the bees will typically start around 6 queen cells. These can be seen to be supercedure cells as they are still unsealed 7 days later - the resultant queens certainly seem good to me. The division board goes in then and the rear nuc raises a new queen for the colony by flying from the rear entrance that is then opened. I assume the reduced amount of pheromone reaching the nurse bees in that area is 'read' by those bees as a sign the queen is failing - so supercedure kicks in. Presumably this would also work by lifting a super of brood right to the top of a tiered hive - but harder lifting - and making a temporary upper entrance leaves you managing the hive with bees flying back at face level. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:35:24 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Presumably this would also work by lifting a super of brood right to the > top of a tiered hive - If you take the brood to the top tier and there is no pheromone getting to those bees at the top, I would imagine it would be an emergency response and not a supercedure response. In a supercedure response it would be to pheromone failing over time, not being cut off in one go. I have seen bees making queen cells when brood is moved into the top super but it seemed from numbers more like an emergency response. I have found that for supercedure they build only a couple but build many for an emergency response. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:06:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: swarm capture advice, please Comments: To: Michael Palmer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I wouldn't use fishing line. It will be permanent. Use instead, use string. I prefer hemp twine, it's chewable and you can separate it to make it wider where the bottom of the comb rests on it. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/ http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:21:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: bee trucks and loaders In-Reply-To: <200506211758.j5LHonAV013268@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Lord writes: I need moderate weight capacity but am interested in mobibility so I am looking at 3/4 and 1 ton flat beds. I am also looking at loaders Reply: We use 3/4 pickups and 1 ton flat bed trucks and run about 900 + colonies right now while working back up in numbers. If that close to home and about 250 hives, why not do it simply and just have a liftgate put on back on vehicles, and use then two kelly nose floor trucks to wheel on and off and rope during transit. One floor truck on bed and other on ground simply wheeling and no lifting to lift gate. Heck, even I can work bees easily and move, etc that way, so you ought to be able to too! not that I am a poor old beekeepers wife in late 50s now. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:19:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology In-Reply-To: <002601c576ca$aa25c300$b461443d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Trevor & all > If you take the brood to the top tier and there is no > pheromone getting to those bees at the top, I would > imagine it would be an emergency response and not a > supercedure response. In a supercedure response it > would be to pheromone failing over time, not being > cut off in one go. It is not a clear cut as you suggest, there are many 'shades' to supersedure depending on whether the colony is queenright or not, whether the new queen will replace the old or lay alongside her for a short or a long time. One thing I have been looking at in order to get some insight as to why two or more queens might benefit a colony, is that multiple queens increase the numbers of patrilines in a colony, which in turn may confer some benefit in division of labour terms. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 5.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:47:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "queenbee" <' If you take the brood to the top tier and there is no pheromone getting to > those bees at the top, I would imagine it would be an emergency response > and > not a supercedure response. In a supercedure response it would be to > pheromone failing over time, not being cut off in one go. I have seen > bees > making queen cells when brood is moved into the top super but it seemed > from > numbers more like an emergency response. I have found that for > supercedure > they build only a couple but build many for an emergency response.' Assuming that you do NOT put in any solid division when raising brood to the top, I would expect some pheromone still does get thru - due to interchange of nurse bees between the main queenright nest and the separated brood due to some bees travelling down the hive for cleansing flights for example - and also the pheromone coating on the brood frmames would only 'wear out' over time, not be suddenly expunged. So conditions for supercedure (slow dwindling of the level of pheromone) could be expected to exist. The test would be whther the cells were sealed or still open 7 days later - as they are with horisontal displacement of brood frames. In that case the cells were raised on eggs/larvae that were around one day old at the time the brood was moved - NOT an emergency reaction. I suggest 2 supercedure cells is common when supercedure occurs within the main nest - but a greater number (typically around 6) results when the supercedure impulse is induced by separating (but not isolating) just part of the brood nest from the queen. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:29:11 -0400 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: bee trucks and loaders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, Most of the commercial guys I know use a 12 to 14 foot flat bed, four wheel drive trucks.. Eight frame can fit 10 pallets on the bed and 10 on top, 4 hives each...I run 10 frames so I can only put eight pallets (33"X48") on the deck and eight up..that is, story and half...on a 12 foot bed..We use a Bobcat loader which I tow behind my truck...Makes it somewhat easier than lifting each individual hive. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:34:10 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I suppose a small section of queen excluder over the inner hole and a deep with queenless eggs/brood on top of the inner cover could do the trick for a vertical hive? There would be an exchange of queen scent but it would be much reduced in the top deep. Waldemar Long Island, NY >>Assuming that you do NOT put in any solid division when raising brood to the top, I would expect some pheromone still does get thru - due to interchange of nurse bees between the main queenright nest and the separated brood due to some bees travelling down the hive for cleansing flights for example - and also the pheromone coating on the brood frmames would only 'wear out' over time, not be suddenly expunged. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:18:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Waldemar: 'I suppose a small section of queen excluder over the inner hole and a deep with queenless eggs/brood on top of the inner cover could do the trick for a vertical hive? There would be an exchange of queen scent but it would be much reduced in the top deep.' Waldemar implies that queen pheromone is airbourne. As I remember reading/believe, queen pheromone is transmitted by contact - the queen leaves footprint pheromone wherever she patrols and the bees take pheromone off her body by licking (sounds delicious!). I wonder if she also leaves pheromone in every cell into which she has squeeezed to lay an egg - or maybe when first checking the condition/size of cell by inserting her antennae / fore-legs. So the queen excluder may not be so important as distance - putting a honey super between the lower brood chambers and the box of raised brood. I doubt the queen would travel over the honey to revisit the brood at the top unless short of space below. There must be many who have experience with various arrangements for inducing supercedure......... Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:31:30 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sorry, Robin, but I implied workers from the queenright bottom half of the hive could migrate up through the queen excluder over the hole in the inner cover and pass the queen's pheromones on to the bees in the upper half. Since the pheromone levels in the upper half would be much reduced, supercedure cells could be started there. We were saying the same thing, I believe. Queens scent the comb with their foot glands and bees pick up the queen scent by coming in contact with her as well. Having an excluder over the inner cover is important to me. I once placed irregular brood combs from a feral colony in a hive body over the inner cover on a regular colony and later found that the queen had gone up through the inner cover hole and laid up a big batch of eggs in the feral comb! This only prolonged how long I had to keep the feral comb on the hive. In the induced supercedure scenario, if the queen went up, it would most likely stop any queen cell building activity in the upper section. Waldemar Long Island, NY >From Robin: Waldemar implies that queen pheromone is >airbourne. As I remember reading/believe, queen pheromone is >transmitted by contact - the queen leaves footprint pheromone >wherever she patrols and the bees take pheromone off her body >by licking (sounds delicious!). <...> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:55:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: WalkAwaySplits -- Queen Rearing Comments: To: Bill Truesdell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quite frankly, the easiest way to get good queens from a walk away spilt is to ensure you don't introduce larvae to the split. Give the split nothing but eggs if possible. By the time the eggs hatch, almost all the pheremon will be gone, and there will be nothing but 1 or 2 day old larvae to choose from. If you can't isolate a frame of exclusive eggs, just cut out a section that solely eggs, and put in swarm capture frame. Give the frame of pollen and honey, and put split on old location. Not sure why we have to make things so difficult and complicated. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/ http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:54:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology In-Reply-To: <007201c5771a$afdd0600$3e85bc3e@DellDesk> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Robin, > The test > would be whther the cells were sealed or still open 7 days later - as > they > are with horisontal displacement of brood frames. Once again this 7 day period comes up. I have never seen or even read of any sort of cell that would be left open for 7 days. I have used a 4 day test quite successfully. Where do you come up with a cell age at sealing of over 7 days? Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:28:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: WalkAwaySplits -- Queen Rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Quite frankly, the easiest way to get good queens from a walk away > spilt is to ensure you don't introduce larvae to the split. > Give the split nothing but eggs if possible. > Not sure why we have to make things so difficult and complicated. Exactly, and, personally, I always get spooked when I hear sequences of facts and assumptions that have not been well-proven threaded together to reach conclusions that remain untested, but somehow become quickly regarded as truth, rather than untested hypothesis. This one area of bee behaviour is very poorly researched and understood. Although some good observations have been made, particularly in along the trodden paths of queen rearing, and there are a few islands of fact on which we can rely, there remains a huge gulf of ignorance in these matters. Some of the comments in this discussion have been most interesting, particularly those relating to Russians and their habits. I think there is good potential here for some grad work (hint, hint), but I am not sure this will ever be an easy area to nail down, since there are so many variables that are hard to control. Maybe that is why it remains largely uncharted. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:33:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Please correct me if I am wrong but Supersedure starts with the workers building queen cup/s on the side of comb/s and then the queen laying egg/s in the cup/s, and the supersedure queen develops from the start from an egg then larva being fed lavishly to develop a quality queen. As I understand this supersedure is by design of the workers. I also understand that any queen developed by larva one day old or older is an emergency queen by design either of the workers or the beekeeper. Grafting one day old larva therefore develops an emergency queen. Most all production queens are produced by design as an emergency queen. Only queens developed from the egg is not an emergency queen. I am not sure if supersedure queens can be induced but swarm queens can be induced. The beekeeper and Author of "Better Queens" Jay Smith is one commercial production queen producer of queens that ended up producing queens from eggs instead of producing from grafting larva. He describes how to in his book "Better Queens". To me queens from an egg is the only real way to produce real well developed queens. It is not easy but it can be done. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:07:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: WalkAwaySplits -- Queen Rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Walk away splits. Very crude to say the least. OK I suppose for the hobby beekeeper. The method was common practice 100 years ago with all but the most knowledgeable beekeepers. I could fill a couple posts with what is wrong but the big concern is if one figures the amount of time until a new laying queen workers are in the hive from *eggs* as Scot suggests the walk away split will have shrunk to nuc size. 1. approx.16 days egg to emerging virgin queen 2. approx 12 -14 days until queen mated & laying eggs 3. 21 days till workers emerge approx 28 lost queen laying days Mated caged queen introduced and laying in 3 days. approx 28 lost days of queen rearing lost with walk away split(conservative est.) 28 days times even 1000 eggs a day which is conservative est. at time of year Allen suggests ( 28,000 lost worker bees) approx. days till *laying queen in hive*: 1. mated queen fastest way to get hive in production (3 to 5 days) 2.dequeened and rip cell added ( 12-14 days) 3. walk away split ( 28 days) The above times are approx but close to correct time. One can easily see why the queen is the most valuable insect in the hive. Queens which are raised correctly pay dividends. Quote from the beekeeping legend Dr. Farrar: "Poorly reared queens of productive stock generally will be inferior to well-reared queens from less productive stock" Walk away splits *without introduction of new alleles* from time to time fixes undesirable traits in your yards as no selection process is in place to improve stock. Scots method of adding eggs from his best hive might improve his walk away splits but is a very crude form of bee breeding. Not even practiced by the old masters Miller, Alley, Smith & Doolittle. The Doolittle method has stood the test of time and is the most used method by queen producers around the world after over a 100 years. Sincerely, Bob Harrison "Beekeeping is both simple and complicated at the same time" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:12:22 +0200 Reply-To: Paul Collett Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Collett Organization: Rhodes University Subject: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin said: > Waldemar implies that queen pheromone is airbourne. As I remember > reading/believe, queen pheromone is transmitted by contact - the queen > leaves footprint pheromone wherever she patrols and the bees take > pheromone > off her body by licking (sounds delicious!). Are you sure that Queen Mandibular Pheromone is not airborne? Work done by Crewe and Moritz (2004) about trapping QMP with silicone rubber tubes and other by Arthur and Pawliszyn (1990) by gas chromatography, suggests that the pheromone is airborne. >From my experience, worker bees if dumped with their queen will soon locate her and move in her direction. Worker bees also have mandibular pheromones which differ only from QMP by the position of the functional group of the 10-carbon fatty acid. Sounds like an awful amount of licking. According to Plettner, Slessor and Winston (1997), QMP is a "signal by which the queen makes her presence and reproductive dominance felt throughout the nest" How is this done purely by licking and footprints? I am very interested to hear if this is correct, because until now I understood it otherwise. Does anybody else have something to say regarding this? Respectfully submitted :) Paul Collett Acacia Apiaries Eastern Cape South Africa :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:41:41 -0400 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I admit ignorance of whether queen pheremone is transmitted by footprint, but I KNOW that some queen pheremone is airborne! I regularly create an artificial swarm by caging a queen with 5-10 pounds of bees, keeping them together overnight, and then hanging the queen cage in a shrub 50-100 feet upwind of the bees. In an hour or so virtually all the bees will have left the box and will be surrounding the queen in an 'artificial swarm'. I then use this backdrop to teach kids (and accompanying adults) about the reproductive aspects of swarms and especially to show them how gentle are the bees in a swarm. I start by showing how I can put my hand inside the swarm, cup it gently, and pull it away with a handful of bees (and no stings). I then invite the kids to try. Almost invaribly the 'first' is a girl, quickly followed by more girls and boys. Last are the parents! (Showing that fear of bees is an aquired trait?) So, some queen substance is clearly transmitted by air. A wonder of nature can be observed by standing at the queen cage site and watching the bees track the scent. They fly back and forth along the axis between the cage and the bee location. It seems obvious that they are sensing a weakening and strengthing of the scent and keeping themselves aligned with the goal. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:31:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Only queens developed from the egg is not an emergency queen. The beekeeper and Author of "Better Queens" Jay Smith is one commercial production queen producer of queens that ended up producing queens from eggs instead of producing from grafting larva. Keith, Would you please outline this method - does it involve placing eggs in queen cups? Thanks, Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:36:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Lloyd Spear" I KNOW that some queen pheremone is airborne! I > regularly create an artificial swarm by caging a queen with 5-10 > pounds of bees, keeping them together overnight, and then hanging the > queen cage in a shrub 50-100 feet upwind of the bees. In an hour or so > virtually all the bees will have left the box and > will be surrounding the queen in an 'artificial swarm'. ' This is absolutely fascinating and obviously a great way to demonstrate some of the mysterious ways of bees. So also were Paul Collett references to air trapping experiments. So, obviously, yes, queen pheromone can be airbourne. Further evidence, drones find flying virgins by following both 'visual and chemical cues' (Mark Winston). Hooper & Morse state the virgin is already producing queen substance (9-0-2) over her body, and on scenting this , a drone fly upwind for about 10 yards looking for her and has to get within 3 feet before he can see her clearly (despite those great big eyes). There are various different glandular secretions of the queen within 'queen pheromone' as I understand it. Are there different components that are carried different ways, some by air, some by imprinting on comb, some by contact bee to bee - or is it 3 ways of transmitting the one chemical ? Any bee scientists out there? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:42:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Tom Elliott" 'this 7 day period' ...... I have never seen or even read > of any sort of cell that would be left open for 7 days. I have used a 4 > day test quite successfully. Where do you come up with a cell age at > sealing of over 7 days?' I don't. We are all agreed , I would expect , that the periods for a queen are 3/5/7 for eggs/larva/pupa (and 3/6/12 for a worker). I know those are approximations but easy to remember and good enough for bee management I reckon. All I have been saying is that if a queen cell is unsealed 7 days after the frame was isolated then the cell must have been started over a cell that contained at that time an egg only 1 day old. As a good queen would be produced provided feeding started within 1 day of the egg hatching, the bees have had at least 3 days to select that cell for queen raising . Seems a safe margin to me against the risk of an over-age larva being selected - which is where this theme started. Agreed, queen cells can be selected at 4 days after isolating - but any cells then unsealed could include those where the larva was already 1 day old at the time the frame was isolated - and if it took the bees a bit of time to work out they were queenless and get going, the oldest of those cells could be questionable. Why 7 days and not say 6, which would also be completely safe? Well, for most of my life I was a weekend beekeeper .......and in retirement it is stilll convenient to do my rounds on regular days of the week. I do however accept a well-made cell even if found sealed after 7 days if it lies within a patch of worker brood that is still unsealed, implying that patch of eggs hatched only 6 days earlier and the queen cell was sealed over only within the last 24 hours. So that cell is, in effect, being selected when 6 days old. Hope all these numbers do not confuse. Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:21:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Noble Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology Can it be assumed that, in an emergency situation, the colony begins raising new queens immediately upon removal of the old queen or might there be some variation in the time it takes the colony to respond? Also, how much variation in the age of larvae chosen for queenship is involved in an emergency situation, and how much variation in the number of queen cells produced? If the trigger for such a response is the sudden drop in pheromone levels, how sudden would that drop have to be? Is that another variable, and if so what factors would influence it; size of colony? Weather conditions? Is it possible that there could be enough variation in these factors in the emergency situation to make distinguishing it from a supersedure difficult in some cases? If you could assume that a colony began raising queens immediately upon removal of the old queen, and that they began raising them all at the same time as opposed to over a 24 to 48 hour stretch, and that they were all chosen from larvae of the same age, then you could say that any cells still open at day 4or 5 were from larvae of a very young age. And that raises another question. Given that a swarm queen is raised to be a queen from the get go, and that she is a larvae for only 4-5 days, how long is that larval stage extended when a regular larvae is converted to a queen larvae after a day or two or three? Certainly not more than 24 hours. The fact that there is very little time involved in the development of egg to queen, means that even small variations in timing are significant, and since there are a lot of variables, this makes it is difficult to draw conclusions as to what is of survival benefit to the species. Is it advantageous to get a new queen as quick as possible or to wait a day or two and get a really fertile robust queen? To me it is not obvious. But I would accept solid scientific observation of exactly when, in the stage of larvae, colonies begin raising queens, and statistical analysis of those observations, as the greatest evidence of what nature already knows. It seems valuable enough information to have been studied more than it has. By the way, here in the greater Seattle area, Italian Queens cost $20. Steve Noble, Whidbey Island, Wa. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:32:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone who has been to the FIBKA course at Gormanston would have had the opportunity of seeing how a drone congregation area is located by using artificial queen pheromone to attract drone. The effect can be startling with scores of drones attempting to get to the 'queen'. The pheromone must be airborne in this case. Ruary > ----- Original Message ----- > >>I admit ignorance of whether queen pheremone is transmitted by >> footprint, but I KNOW that some queen pheremone is airborne! I >> regularly create an artificial swarm by caging a queen with 5-10 >> pounds of bees, keeping them together overnight, and then hanging the >> queen cage in a shrub 50-100 feet upwind of the bees. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:44:32 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Hooper & Morse state the virgin is already producing queen substance (9-0-2) over her body... I released a newly emerged virgin queen from her cage this morning. I was surprised by how she grabbed a worker bee and pressed hard against her. At first, I thought she was fighting with another virgin but, when I pushed her off, she grabbed the next bee. I wonder if she was spreading her scent this way? Waldemar :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:05:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: WalkAwaySplits -- Queen Rearing In-Reply-To: <200506231007.j5NA7J4G001789@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gee Bob, Seems the biggest problem assaulting beekeepers today is an inability to keep bees alive. Using methods of natural selection (Ex. Hives busting at seems, able to requeen selves easily, quick rebuilding up, etc.) seems to me to be reinforcing traits necessary for survival. Perhaps the loss of season's productivity seems a waste to you. There are those of us conderned with being successful beekeepers in the long term, and not just maximizing profit in the short term. We who wish to grow instead of dwindle away benefit from the added natural pressures placed on the bees for survival. Beekeepers who have queens that are cousins and aunts and 2nd cousins have a much higher chance of making it through hard times when disaster hits. New genes are constantly included in a open breeding pool, and yes beekeepers benefit from the occasional inclusion of good breeding stocks. Having a whole operation sourced from a single line of breeding though are at risk for total loss when the disaster that hits exploits a weakness the entire "sisterhood" shares. It is entirely misunderstood by many how natural selection takes place. Allow me to quickly summarize the basics. Weakness is filtered as nature places pressures on "life". A colony displaying weak traits is either not going to survive or will not often have the strength to divide. The presence of weakness is therefore eliminated or its expression severely limited. Strengths are reinforced as stronger specimens divide more frequently and therefore issue more genetic influence in the pool in the form of drones. Eventually, strong displayed traits will simply overrun the weaknesses by sheer population numbers. Now having said that, you must understand one thing. This is "Natural Selection", not "Manual Selection". What you get may not be YOUR perfect bee, but who are you going to argue with? Mothernature has a whole heck of a lot more experience in development of lifeforms than we do. It is awefully arrogant of us to think that we know better than nature about what makes for a better bee. Sure our bees might produce more honey on a flow, sure maybe we can select for hygene. On the other hand perhaps there is a LOT more to the honey bee than observeable traits. Perhaps natural selection has a lot more to do with species survival than how much honey a colony can produce. Then again, this thread was about the mechanics of doing walk-away splits and not about eugenics. Now to address a few comments that stem from misunderstanding. > The method was common practice 100 years ago with all but the most knowledgeable beekeepers. Who is this? Most likely just the people who happened to chose to write about the subject. >the walk away split will have shrunk to nuc size. And somehow this is bad? Adding pressures, or more correctly speaking, not relieving pressures allows stocks to prove their mettle in times of adversity. >Not even practiced by the old masters Miller, Alley, Smith & Doolittle. The Doolittle method has stood the test of time and is the most used method by queen producers around the world after over a 100 years. I don't know about the rest, but Miller? If you read his books as much as I have then you will understand that he has pretty much written about trying all sorts of things only to discover and finally come to the conclusion in the end that the bees know what they are doing better than we do. Funny though that you chose the 100 year time period. Its within the last 100 years that beekeeping changed from traditional to modern and modern beekeepers are having all the problems that the old time beekeeper did not have. Large cell foundation development, inhive pesticides, antibiotics, chemical treatments, etc, etc. In conclusion also I find it funny that while most beekeepers are afraid of loosing their bees and watching them dwindle without refreshing stocks and replacing whole beeyards of deadouts that those of us who keep bees the way we do more naturally are having trouble finding places to put our bees because they are doing so well and bursting the corners of our hives. My operation is growing rapidly, and so are most of the others of our group. My walk-away splits from april are already ready to be split again AND I got my crop from them. Why is that? Maybe its because we refuse to think that that we are better at keeping bees than the bees and nature. Keeping bees successfully for us isn't producing the largest crop this year, its ensuring that we will always have a crop to harvest. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/ http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:39:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology In-Reply-To: <20050623.104503.10818.206389@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Refrence from drapers,,, If young worker larvae are fed the same royal jelly for 2 to 3 days. Why would an emergency queen reared from a 3 day old larvae necessarily produce a poor quality queen?,,,where is the harm at? http://www.draperbee.com/info/royaljelly.htm "For 2-3 days, royal jelly is the only food given to all young larvae in their maturation process, while for the queen larvae, it is the specific food for their whole life period...." __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:54:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: WalkAwaySplits -- Queen Rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to say that I agree pretty much 100% with *both* Bob and Scot, But, however, Scot's reasoning appeals to me more, especially now that I am retired. When I was a commercial, I was well aware of my 'sins' against the bees, but had (I think) valid excuses, as, probably do all who try to make a living from or with them, except for a fortunate few who find themselves in the perfect place at the perfect time, with the perfect bee, and a potful of money. Frankly, however, on the whole, I am still not as convinced as some that the bees are not at least a bit better off for the meddling of Man, after all, we did bring them to the New World, unless Dee is correct and they were already here. I've heard it claimed that bees have been around a lot longer than Man and actually influenced the development of a promising-looking primate to create a critter which would delight in hauling bees from place to place, feed them, and generally serve them (as do most of us on this list). A human would say, "no way', that we abuse them, but then their ways and their laws are much different from ours. Then again, I've heard that humans were created by water as another way of getting around. So, as I say, I have no problem agreeing with both. > Perhaps the loss of season's productivity seems a waste to you. > There are those of us conderned with being successful beekeepers in the > long term, and not just maximizing profit in the short term. And there are many of us who keep bees just for fun, have lots of equipment, and consider more than a little honey to be a nuisance, especially at these prices :( > Then again, this thread was about the mechanics of doing > walk-away splits and not about eugenics. Yup, and we got to pointing out the good features of walk-aways -- of which there as many as there are questionable features -- when viewed from the viewpoint of a non-commercial or non-perfectionist beekeeper, the boxkeeper, the kind of guy/gal that GEORGE loves to denegrate as a beeHAVER, or from the viewpoint of someone who values the bees as more than just a possession to be exploited. Personally, I have been all of those at one time or another, plus some kinds not listed (Wouldn't that make a great thread?). For us, the walk-away is a dream come true. Moreover, if commercial beekeepers were to tell the total truth, I'm betting that *every one* of them would admit that when leaving a yard with queenless hives or some that appear queenless -- and knowing that there are no queens handy, and that he/she cannot/will not return for weeks or for a month -- that he/she always slips a frame of eggs into each. Not to do so would be negligence. >>the walk away split will have shrunk to nuc size. In my experience, within about six weeks, the walk-away half which made its own queen pulls ahead of the other half, due to the vigour of the young queen, and the pent-up brood rearing potential of the well-fed waiting nurse bees and the food stores accumulated during queenlessness. > I don't know about the rest, but Miller? If you read his books as much > as I have then you will understand that he has pretty much written about > trying all sorts of things only to discover and finally come to the > conclusion in the end that the bees know what they are doing better than > we do. When we eliminate the economic necessity of manipulating the bees to our own purposes from our deliberations, I think we all reach that conclusion, although we can accomplish some neat things with bees, in the short term at least. > Funny though that you chose the 100 year time period. Its within the > last 100 years that beekeeping changed from traditional to modern and > modern beekeepers are having all the problems that the old time > beekeeper did not have. Large cell foundation development, inhive > pesticides, antibiotics, chemical treatments, etc, etc. Gee, Scott, you saved me a lot of typing. Did you mean to mention also economic slavery to government, suppliers and bankers? > In conclusion also I find it funny that while most beekeepers are afraid > of loosing their bees and watching them dwindle without refreshing > stocks ... My walk-away splits from april are already ready to > be split again AND I got my crop from them. > Keeping bees successfully for us isn't producing the largest crop this > year, its ensuring that we will always have a crop to harvest. And enjoying the bees, while minimizing cost and effort if we can. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:55:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: WalkAwaySplits -- Queen Rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Using methods of natural selection Is leave alone beekeeping natural selection? > Perhaps the loss of season's productivity seems a waste to you. I do have help to pay and overhead. How many seasons are we talking about losing production? Having kept bees over forty years all I have seen produced from "leave alone" beekeeping as been a bunch of stinging inbred bees. I have looked through many a yard of bees kept by the "mother nature knows best method". >There are those of us conderned with being successful beekeepers in the long term, and not just maximizing profit in the short term. Big difference between successful hobby (no need to make a profit) and successful commercial. >Beekeepers who have queens that are cousins and aunts and 2nd cousins have a much higher chance of making it through hard times when disaster hits. Are you saying inbred bees do better? I have never before seen the terms cousins and aunts used to describe bees. > Weakness is filtered as nature places pressures on "life". A colony displaying weak traits is either not going to survive or will not often have the strength to divide. Over how much time can I expect the same results as you. A season? Two seasons ? Ten years? >The presence of weakness is therefore eliminated or its expression severely limited. Strengths are reinforced as stronger specimens divide more frequently and therefore issue more genetic influence in the pool in the form of drones. Eventually, strong displayed traits will simply overrun the weaknesses by sheer population numbers. In other words we are all going down the wrong path with bee breeding and selection and should forget about bee improvement and let nature take its course? > Mothernature has a whole heck of a lot more experience in development of lifeforms than we do. It is awefully arrogant of us to think that we know better than nature about what makes for a better bee. Quite a bit of research has been done on the honeybee and we do know solid facts on bee improvement. It is the bee mother nature gave us we are trying to improve on! >Now to address a few comments that stem from misunderstanding. Have you read any of the books I suggested to you the last time I discussed bee breeding with you? So we can get indepth into the subject and used correct termonology. I am on BEE-L to learn. So far all I have heard is the opinion that if we leave our bees to their fate we will solve all our problems. Hope we can agree to disagree! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:40:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: WalkAwaySplits -- Queen Rearing In-Reply-To: <200506240123.j5O1Gfdq016851@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, In short response. I have 48 hives right now and looking for funding to increase. Why funding? Because I can't quit my job to work on the bees full time unless I can write myself a paycheck first. That's the only reason for the funding. I need money to buy lumber and buy a truck to for hauling, I already have enough bees to buildup to the critical mass to ensure profitability using disaster case figures that determine I can pay off a loan within 3 to 5 year if EVERYTHING goes wrong. The only hard part is getting to that critical number of starting hives that will provide enough income for me to quit my job and work bees as a sole income. That number is 250 hives, BUT as the numbers work its actually cheaper to start with 500 hives. The capitol burden is a few thousand dollars less in the end. Up to 500 hives I don't need laborers, 1 or 2 might be helpful but not a necessity. What is disaster case figures? 60 lbs per previous year's hives in honey, selling honey at $1 per lb. I already have retail commitments for far more than that, but if I have to I can do it at open market value. Doing queens and packages as well. Sure I live in Florida and that helps a lot, but there is every year a shortage in available livestock for sale. Every year I hear there aren't enough bees to go around and you have to buy your bees 6 months in advance to buy bees. I haven't even added in pollination into my figures yet. Why am I using disaster case numbers in my business planning? Because I need to show that I can do it, even when things get tough. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, FL USA http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ mailto:scot@linuxfromscratch.org . ` , ` ' .,';`,. ``. '. _/^\_ :;.,';`'.,` `., ' '`, /_____\ .:.,"'` /\_____/\ .,:`'" \###/.,';` :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:06:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > when viewed from the viewpoint of a non-commercial or non-perfectionist > beekeeper, the boxkeeper, the kind of guy/gal that GEORGE loves to > denigrate as a beeHAVER, or from the viewpoint of someone who > values the bees as more than just a possession to be exploited. > Personally, I have been all of those at one time or another, plus > some kinds not listed (Wouldn't that make a great thread?). Sometimes one type of beekeeper or another tends to dominate discussion here on BEE-L, but the fact is that there are many kinds and many purposes for beekeeping, from hobby to science to making a living or simply ensuring that the family farm has pollination who lurk and post here. I'd like to hear from diverse list members why they keep bees, what their principles are and what their goals are. In Particular, I'd like to hear from those who read BEE-L and seldom or never write. I suspect that this could be interesting. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:11:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe & All, http://www.draperbee.com/info/royaljelly.htm > Refrence from drapers,,, If young worker larvae are fed the same royal jelly for 2 to 3 days. Why would an emergency queen reared from a 3 day old larvae necessarily produce a poor quality queen?,,,where is the harm at? > Your reference does not go into the fact that it is the quantity fed during these two or three days and the remainder of the larvae stage that makes the difference between a poor queen and a quality queen. When workers begin to feed Larvae that they intend to develop into queens they feed them royal jelly lavishly. Larvae not fed lavishly that were intended to develop into a worker may develop into a poor queen once emergency queen development begins. Chances are an emergency queen can be quality, good, or poor. For "Better Queens" the larvae must be fed lavishly from the very start of its hatching from the egg. There is no real harm in an emergency queen unless you wind up with only a good or poor queen out of the deal made with the bees. Here is some reference for all needing such but let it be known there are old books that could also be refernced like "Better Queens" by Jay Smith. http://health.indiatimes.com/articleshow/14245426.cms ><""""Royal Jelly is produced by the 'Worker Bee' from its pharyngeal glands to feed the larva. When fed lavishly to a larva, it hatches as a Queen Bee. This food enables a mature Queen Bee to lay eggs weighing more than her own weight in a single day. "All these observations show that the substance is capable of producing tremendous physiological activity."""">< http://www.goldenblossomhoney.com/honeybee.html ><""""The queen bee is a very unique animal. She has 2 main functions in the colony. She lays all of the eggs for the entire hive and she maintains the social order of the community (through certain secretions produced from glands in her body). Biologists point to the queen bee as a remarkable example of how food can affect animal development since the worker bee and the queen bee come from the same egg. The simple fact that the queen bee is fed lavishly results in numerous anatomical differences between she and the worker. The most important difference is in their reproductive systems. Worker bees cannot mate, while queen bees are specially equipped to mate and can also store sperm for long periods of time - even years."""">< . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:50:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar & All, > Would you please outline this method - does it involve placing eggs in queen cups? > Smith used a version of the Alley method as basically described in the link below except he used new or only slightly used comb. http://web.archive.org/web/20020313084530/gobeekeeping.com/Alleyqueens.htm Alley used cells with eggs and Smith actually used cells with freshly hatch eggs, larvae so small that they were smaller than he would use for grafting. He said in "Better Queens" that these freshly hatched larvae would suffer damage if grafted. Using his later method of using worker comb he achieved better queens than if he would have grafted. He lays out his complete method in his 1949 book "Better Queens", this book was to supersede his book "Queen Rearing Simplified" as far as grafting is concerned. Foe some reason "Better Queens" was not as popular as "Queen Rearing Simplified" and is much more rare and in turn can cost much more if found. The book can still be found if searched for. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:17:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: WalkAwaySplits -- Queen Rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, > In other words we are all going down the wrong path with bee breeding and > selection and should forget about bee improvement and let nature take its > course? > Probably, especially presently concerning improving survivability. Those beekeepers that are now using Gods feral survivors are experiencing great success with keeping bees now. If you believe there are not any wild bees in nature I have a bridge in New York City to sell you if you could also afford the shipping expense. Where mans pressure is limited wild bees are on the comeback. Actually bees have already done the job of selection and breeding for survivability, man as a whole just needs to learn to keep them correctly. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:40:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: WalkAwaySplits -- Queen Rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot, The closing of my friend Horace Bell's Honey farm has left a big void in Florida. Maybe the right time to start. You seem sincere so I will give advice . >Why funding? Because I can't quit my job to work on the bees full time unless I can write myself a paycheck first. Many beekeepers look for employment outside of beekeeping at first a couple days a week . A few of those jobs will offer insurance. Security work & public school jobs are a couple but sure there are many others. > I need money to buy lumber If you get with a couple other commercial beekeepers you can go in on a large order . The large beekeepers buy knock down hive bodies and frames cheaper than they can buy the lumber and make. Skids, tops and bottoms can *in my opinion* be made cheaper if you use a different design. >and buy a truck to for hauling, Buy a small truck and rent a large truck at first. > I can pay off a loan within 3 to 5 year if EVERYTHING goes wrong. I never borrowed for beekeeping. Kind of grew into beekeeping. I would volunteer if you with a commercial beekeeper of the size you want to be. You will learn tips none of us share! I am as serious as a heart attack! I have got a young guy I mentor (about like you). He comes out in 100F. weather and helps pull supers. Whatever I buy in bulk he gets the bulk price. My partner and I haul his bees for him (even to California). I let him use my honey house the last two years. He realizes when he helps us we will help him. He asks us for advice and we give him the best advice we can. You find a 500 hive beekeeper in your area and give him a hand and I doubt you will be sorry. One young beekeeper with bee fever is worth 2-3 laborers in my opinion. > That number is 250 hives, BUT as the numbers work its actually cheaper to start with 500 hives. Plan carefully. Think outside the box. Look for a niche market,. if you plan on packing then you need to run less hives. packing honey & delivering to stores takes time. Selling at markets takes time. if you plan to sell in bulk then you need a higher number of hives but you have got more time. All those little things you need cost money and will add up. Beekeepers auctions will save you big dollars. > I haven't even added in pollination into my figures yet. If Bell honey was still in business in Florida I doubt you would get a bunch of pollination business but the time is right so pollination might be the way to go. Contact Jerry Hayes as I believe a few growers are looking for bees to replace the Bell Honey bees. >Why am I using disaster case numbers in my business planning? Because I need to show that I can do it, even when things get tough. All agriculture is a crap shoot. Weather is always a problem. Divorce is common with beekeepers. When things need done you have to go. Miss kids ball games! Family get togethers! Little time for hobbies! An understanding wife is an asset! The other kind is a nightmare! I have had both! I missed a graduation tonight of a fellow which works for me (he understands but wife did not). I worked today from five AM till eleven thirty and will be up at five Am. I am working on a hand washing station for the honey processing area with an air hand dryer. Also hanging some vinyl strips to keep bees out of the bottling area as a new girl is scared of bees. I was gone for three days to Marla Spivak's queen rearing course in Nebraska so am behind. In today's fast beekeeping world you can not be a recluse. Keep informed. I wish you the best of luck in beekeeping! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:17:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? In-Reply-To: <000a01c57861$5a3a7af0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all > there are many kinds and many purposes for beekeeping, > from hobby to science to making a living or simply > ensuring that the family farm has pollination In my time I have been many sorts of beekeeper, equipment manufacturer and researcher... In times of illness I have even abandoned bees to their own devices, but when I started my beekeeping I made a choice between doing all of this and making a living as a commercial beekeeper. I have learned a great deal from my 'bits and pieces' approach, I fear that if I had adopted the commercial route, I would have been too busy to enjoy it and learn as much. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 5.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 05:39:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a dozen or so hives in the southern UK. I keep the bees deliberately as a hobby and not to make a profit. The profit motive stops it being a hobby, so I plough any surplus into my continuing education as a beekeeper or the occasional donation to a bee-charity. I have been keeping records of my income and expenditure since 1999 in case the tax man asks for a cut of the profits he imagines I make, and on 9th of May this year I was 9 pence ahead! They went into deficit whan they paid for my entry to Apimondia but now are ahead again. Like many beekeepers I spend more time talking and typing about them than actually playing with them. Chris > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:22:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? In-Reply-To: <000a01c57861$5a3a7af0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen dick wrote: In Particular, I'd like to hear from those who read BEE-L and seldom or never write. allen Allen wanted to know what kind of beekeeper is out here so here is my response. I’m now at the point where I hope I know enough to know just how ignorant I am about keeping bees. Years ago when beekeeping was easier I taught a couple of adult education classes in beekeeping and this past spring I started back and taught another under the auspices of the county agricultural office. I think I am most proud of this latest class. Out of eleven students I think I have about ten of them keeping bees, a couple starting out with nothing and now having six or more hives (a combination of purchased hives, purchased packages, and caught swarms). A couple have done things this first year that I haven’t done up to this point. We are in the process of trying to establish a beekeeping club in the county ( a few classmembers are reluctant to join because they want nothing to do with the bee inspectors and feel they would be identified and imposed upon if they joined an organized club)! . I’m planning on writing an article about the proposed club for the county newspaper this coming week and seeing what develops at our next meeting. I am currently beset with a hard infestation of AFB in one yard and have isolated it from all my other bee activities. Being so small I am really reluctant to destroy the remaining hives but plan to do so when I get back from my trip to Europe. I am currently planning on conducting the shake-swarm method of transferring the remaining colonies to completely new equipment and seeing if I might possibly save the bees themselves. I would appreciate any responses of those of you out there who have tried this or have knowledge about it. I am also trying to set up a process with our regional cancer treatment center to heavily irradiate my infested equipment and determining if, after irradiation, it has become AFB free. I am currently a small beekeeper and want to expand as rapidly as possible which is why I’m trying the irradiation, both to save equipment and also as an experiment to see if infected equipment can be saved. In another yard I am involved with a state university study comparing attributes of three strains of bees; Russians, SMR’s, and a cross of Italians/Buckfast as controls. We are studying the ease of management, the production qualities, and finally and most important – the ability to survive as drug free colonies. We started out with splits and introduced queens and the program has been very interesting so far. In the future I’m planning to expand by making splits and raising my own queens for introduction into the splits. Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:52:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In Particular, I'd like to hear from those who read BEE-L and seldom or > never write. > > I suspect that this could be interesting. Hello Allen and all., I read Bee-l every day and other sites. I had bees at 14/15 yrs of age because I found some old hives in the barn in 1949. I was a big hit at the 4-H fair with my OB hive. I taught myself from and old (old THEN) abc/xyz of Beekeeping. I bought stuff from the lady that Ed Weiss wrote about in "The Queen and I." 4 years ago I got back into it with 8 packages. They all died. The next year I bought 20 nucs and bought foulbrood. More sad stories after that. Today I have 20 hives and some nucs. I.m having fun selling honey, being on the board of my bee club. (Backyard beekeepers assn, Ct). I had an article in Bee Culture in May, "Riding With The Big Boys". I think I'm maxed out with bees at this number and am ready to raise some queens. I probably spend 2 or 3 hours a day studying bees in some way. Went to EAS last year and am going again. Have signed up to take the master beekeepers test. Oh, yes. I have never had any medications in my hives.(Gee, could that be why they die? Save it!) All have screened bottoms and I monitor closely. When I get it dialed in I may have something to contribute. I tried Oxalic Acid last year for mites with good results. Thats the heaviest thing I've used. FGMO helped but wasn't enough by itself. Carniolans and Minnestoa hygenics. Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:51:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? I started 21 years ago and have kept bees in Papua New Guinea, South Africa and back home in California. I wanted my kids to grow up on honey instead of sugar, and always had a dozen or so hives. 4 years ago I went and bought out the equipment of a guy who gave up, and have averaged about 100, and currently have 75 or so. I'm a Landscape contractor, and I noticed that when I sell my honey at the Farmer's Market wearing my company shirt, I'd often get as much business landscaping as I got from my add in the paper! My kids are involved in harvesting, swarm removal, bottling, selling the honey, as I figure the skills they learn will help them in whatever they do later in life. Bees are nice in that when I'm busy with my contracting, they can generally wait, and when I don't have that much work, there's always a way to make some money by going out and harvesting. I'm mentoring almost a dozen newbies, and want to start a club in San Luis Obispo, but I haven't any organisational skills, and so far none of the others are interested in starting anything. I spend about 10 hours per week with bees, including studying, and make about 15-20 dollars per hour, and that seems to be going up, which is nice, and the contacts I make selling honey add to this. The best resource I've found to learn about bees is the archives on this site. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:14:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What kind I'm I? Not as active as I'd like to bee in one of the 2 county bee associations as I would like. But working a farm, building a house, having some time with my kids, going to a night job, does take out of my time. I use to have before all that 8 bee yards. But gas prices went up I pulled back to my farm and cut back on the number of hives to less than 12. I still lobby the WV Legislature for the WV State beekeepers even though few others do. Even got the honeybee named the state insect of WV few years ago. And I hardly use the medications. We practice Integrated Pest Management. My bees so mean the mites stay away. Russ Dean Jackson County, WV :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:24:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? In-Reply-To: <000a01c57861$5a3a7af0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I fear that if every lurker here responds to this thread it could prove tiresome but here's my contribution anyway. I started beekeeping 3 years ago when I was offered some waistland space to establish a small apiary. I subsequently removed my bees from there when I discovered that the owner's wife was terrified of my bees and they wanted to plant an orchard there. By then I was hooked on beekeeping and now have 21 hives in 3 out apiaries and 2 in my garden. I started with 3 colonies and have built up the numbers by swarm prevention, making increase by a method described on Dave Cushman's site and by catching a few swarms. Because I have been finding my bees do not behave as the books predicted, I am now at the stage where I question everything I read and am carrying out my own tests (albeit not scientifically)to try and sort out fact from fiction and establish a method which I can depend upon and which suits me and my strain of bees (local mongrels). I have just finished building the equipment to do some simple queen rearing by grafting in accordance with the Ben Harden method, again described on Dave's site (thanks Dave). I don't really need further increase but I would like to encourage the traits I favour by breeding from my favourites and requeening the colonies that, to me, exhibit the worst traits. I fear I may do a worse job of it than nature has been doing but I would like to give it a try. I am based in Derbyshire, England. Best wishes to all Steve Rose :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:10:22 -0400 Reply-To: Ronald.Teitelbaum@NeighborCare.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron Teitelbaum Subject: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? In-Reply-To: A<000a01c57861$5a3a7af0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Allen dick: In Particular, I'd like to hear from those who read BEE-L and seldom or never write. Hello All, My wife Lori and I noticed that the number of bees in our area went to zero. We decided that having a couple of hives (I have mine she has hers) would be good for the ecology. We are in our second year and are having a lot of trouble. We've had lots of swarms, missing queens, bought terribly mite infested nucs to help broodles colonies, sting problems, and lots of other trouble. It's been quite a ride. We spend a terrific amount of time worrying about our bees. We have no intention of selling honey; we are planning on giving it away. This year after buying those infested nucs, my wife's colony still had a queen, but the mite level was so bad and we started seeing deformed bees so we decided to treat it now with api-life var (reading the package is really scarry). I left mine alone since it had been broodless for such a long time. I had some hatched queen cells but we have a lot of birds that just sit around and pick the bees off. I was sure that I was queenless and on the verge of having a laying worker. I was a mess worrying about my bees, but Lori was sure things were fine. She kept pointing out there were no bullet cells, and there were a few regular looking (about 10) capped brood cells, and that the bees were calm, and appeared to be happy. We waited one week, things looked the same, week two, same thing but now I saw polished cells in a beautiful pattern, but nothing else no eggs. This is so new for us, I was really concerned, I was feeling like I needed to do something, but Lori said no give it another week. This week I went to look and to my complete surprise, (Lori was right and said I should have listened) there were eggs everywhere. I was so excited, it was a terrific experience. Lori and I are both computer programmers. This is a hobby for us, but we really want to help, and we want to get to the point where we understand what needs to be done to help the bees. I think we realize now that that time may never come but that it will get easier with about 15 years of experience (give or take 10 years). In the mean time we get some satisfaction that even doing it wrong may help the feral colonies, and the bees are so cute and interesting, it is terrific fun. Ron & Lori Hobbyist Bee Keepers, Maryland - Repopulating the environment one swarm at a time :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:28:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gary Wheaton Subject: What kind of Bee keeper am I OK Allen you asked for it. I'm a Gulf war Vet (disabled) who uses bees as theripy for PTSD, and as a hobby, I enjoy Extractions and swarm capture, while I work my bee I can't think of anything else 'cept what is going on right in front of me. My doctor is very suportive of my bees as he finds that I require less of the prescriptions that have been prescribed to me for control of depression and sleeplessness. I sell very little of my honey, if I do it is out the gate and I only ask for a donatation, I trade honey for things I need or gift it to elders. In the way my wife and I follow (indian-Blackfeet) a gift of food is a highly thought of gift. My bees are my 'babies' I try to maintain a chemical free enviroment for them using essential oils and natural products only. My honey is raw and just warmed enough to flow easily and no more, about 120, then bottled. I got started when we asked an elder beekeeper for a hive for pollination of our small orchard, about a year later we found out he had a stroke and was in a nurseing home. That hive died out and the next year a swarm took over the empty box. I was at a lost of what to do after asking a number of people we know we found one that kept bees as a hobby and was willing to maintain the hive on my property, a year after that he had to relocate out of state for work and asked me if I wanted his other five hives-Sure why not said I-lost all six the first year the next I bought 5-3lb packages of Russians and started extractions, lost the russians and the ferial colnies that i've got have been going strong. Have lost a few over the winter and keep my colnies up thru extractions and swarm capture. Almost at my limit now of 25 hives. I read BEE/L and also Beesource. both have a wealth of info, subcribe to ABJ. I'm always willing to try something new and experiment to try to make something easier or more efficent. My Girls keep my mind working. AND LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT. _________________ WHEN YOU CLOSE YOUR EYES, WE ALL LOOK THE SAME> GWPW 03 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:19:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juan Carlos =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fern=E1ndez?= Campos Subject: what kind of beekepper..... Hi over there, I start looking for stingless bees in my town, for they to recover their native lands, when i was a boy there where plenty of stingless bees around, but now days, not like that. Later i said, let's try real bees, so, here i'm, at this moment after 2 years or a little longer, with 8 hive, bat year for beekiping, too dry, no flowers, very hot days, but going on. I'd never rised bees for profit, just for fun, but profit is there any way, i'm a honey's fan, so, most of my bees's honey is for my family, and some friends, I'm starting rearing queens, to make some profit. Juan Carlos. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:16:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Cox Subject: Re: what kind of beekeeper are you? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit May 28th was the start of my 4th year of beekeeping. I always was attracted and repelled by bees, but facinated by how my garden improved when bees were there. We moved from Washington state to Northern California 4 years ago. Too young to retire and financially not ready either, I started selling dahlias in cut bouquets and perennials at the farm. Our booth started as a card table in front of the house with a tin to put money in. Since we were new to the area, we learned the territory by going on garage sale hunts (car boot sales for those across the water) each Saturday and in a different area each time. I happened on a sale where an older beekeeper was retiring and selling bees. So, I got 2 hives in May, June and July. I started reading everything I could get my hand on, including some books I bought at the garage sale. The internet! What a blessing. We took off 60 pounds of honey and gave Christmas presents to all the family. I entered a frame in the Harvest fair and one 1st place. Beginners luck. I managed to keep my bees alive without using chemicals. The next spring all 6 hives were alive, but one was queenless. I read to give the hive an egg. Mark the calendar and those bees made a new queen! Wow, I felt encouraged. Next year (#2), through catching a few swarms and making splits, I sold 3 hives and ended up with 14 hives and 800 pounds of honey. My card table sales went under a tent and my customers were pleased with the new product. I started doing a couple of farmer's markets, when I had honey to sell. That winter, I made a few candles and set them out before Christmas. Bingo....people liked my candles. I had to put a locked box on the table, since the local school kids got wind of the easy money. Year 3 I talked to my mentors' class at the junior college and offered new beekeepers an easier way to start bees than catching swarms and buying packages. I sold matured splits with the new queens. 18 new beekeepers started that year. I was addicted to catching swarms, but even more fascinated by wall extractions. No one wanted to do these and I charged a small fee and was very busy. I ended up with around 80 hives, reducing to 60 after I sold some. 2004 was a bad year for mites and bees. I lost 50 hives. I use IPM, but wasn't diligent enough to save those bees. I started year 4 with 10 hives. I bought 15 packages. I made propolis tinctures, lip balm and a skin bar. This year I'm selling 5 frame nucs to the students and I teach a 3 hour hands on class. I have school tours come here to learn about bees. I have gotten bees in a tree stump by helping the tree cutters and provinding them suits and veils. I have a sideways branch that the treecutters sliced through the hive, while removing dead branches. Real Bee trees! I have a hive in a wood duck nest and a hive in a parrot nest box. Fun to watch! I am going to take the wood duck hive out soon, now that nature has worked on the rotten eggs in the nest. I do 3 farmer's markets and festivals and fairs. I sell pollen, creamed and comb honey and have gotten a reputation for having no treaments in the hives. Sales are booming. We built a 4X16 foot farmstand, that is still on the honor system. The perennials I sell are mostly bee plants now. I'm somewhere up around 60 hives (plus nucs) in 4 locations and I spend EVERYDAY with my girls. I'm going to start raising and grafting queens. I think I may make a few bucks this year!!! I don't have to buy anymore equipment, thank gawd! I am the VP of the Sonoma County Beekeeper's Assn for the second year and my job is getting the speakers for the meetings. We often have 70 members show up, so I think it means the choices are interesting. I can't imagine NOT having bees. I could not do any of this without the help of my husband. He's the muscle for moving hives and equipment and he feeds all our starter hives. He even filled in for me on a Boy Scout tour, that came a day early and I wasn't there, so he put on the suit and entertained the folks. After that he started calling himself a beekeeper. 8-) I have major health issues and am disabled by them. But, the bees, I can do and they help my body. I think the pollen has helped me with an immune disorder. I hardly have flairs anymore. I sting myself for my arthritis and think I have stopped it from getting worse. All family members including our 9 chihuahuas and 2 parrots have honey everyday to keep them healthy. I give my bitches honey every hour while they are in labor. I love my life. It is the best time of my life. Thank gawd for that garage sale!!! Kathy Cox :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:57:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stephen Davis Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? I'm a hobby beekeeper here in Pocahontas County, West Virginia. Beekeeping has been in my family for at least 4 generations. When I first subscribed to this List I thought I knew a lot about bees. It didn't take long for me to learn I better keep my mouth shut and just listen. My goal is to keep a few hives going despite the pests and occasionally enjoy some fresh honey. I either leave my hives unpainted or stain them. In late summer I treat for mites. Best Wishes, Steve Davis :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:37:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: libby kogan Subject: BEEKEEPER M.O. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In response to Allan's query- I am an avid reader of Bee-L but rarely = contribute. I do not know how typical I am but here goes. I am 65, a = psychotherapist, and what might best be called a hobby farmer. My wife = and I have rare breed chickens, a large garden, some fruit trees, many = berries and lots of flower gardens. We currently have 4 beehives and I = have had between 2 and 5 hives for about 6 years now. We sell some = eggs, plants, vegetables and honey to neighbors and give some to our = grown children and grandchildren. I find bees absolutely fascinating = and read quite extensively in the subject. I subscribe to the ABJ and = Bee Culture and belong to SABA and the EAS. I read 3 or 4 bee related = books a year. We are all organic and so I have not used any of the = available varroacides-even the ones that might be acceptable to organic = growers. We are in the Taconic mountain area of eastern New York = State-a pretty marginal bee keeping area. The worst problem I have = encountered is bears that wiped me out one year and on occasion will = still take one hive or so. When I was wiped out by the bears I had all = of the the hives neatly lined up-since then I have spread the 4 hives = around on our 15 acres and since have only lost one hive (at a time). I = generally lose one hive over each winter and purchase a package or nuc = each spring. I rarely feed bees except for new packages or nucs since I = leave them plenty of honey each fall. My hives are all in medium supers = since I have had some back surgery and the full size supers are just too = heavy.=20 I have purchased packages with Russian queens and Carniolan queens as = well as Italians. My production is poor to pathetic but it is plenty = for us- about 40 to 50 lbs of honey from the strongest one or two = hives-not from each hive from all the hives. Each pound of honey = probably costs me about $5 to produce and about half the harvest is sold = for $4/lb. I extract the honey the old fashioned way by cutting it off = of the frames breaking it up and then dripping it through filters. = Obviously not a business but it is a wonderful and pretty reasonable = hobby. I have had a boat in the past and as a form of recreation and an = expense the bees are both more interesting and a lot less expensive. =20 I have taken the EAS Short Course and attend the SABA annual seminars. = My hives generally requeen themselves. The largest hive or two will = swarm and I usually catch one swarm a year-from my own hives and use it = to start a new hive. I generally let the bees be. I look into each = hive in the early spring and I may reverse some supers at that time but = unless I suspect a problem I will not bother them until I pull a honey = super off of the most populous hives in July and maybe again in late = September. I should add that since we are organic we do have a = population of native pollinators but our bees definitely help polinate = our gardens and this is an added bonus. I over winter the hives in 3 or = 4 medium supers depending on how large the colony seems. At least one = to one and a half supers would be full of honey. I have had some hives = going for 3 years plus though they have requeened in that time. I do = check for varroa via a sticky board once a year and generally have = counts far below the treatment threshold. I am not sure why this is the = case but it is. I generally have hives on screened bottom boards and in = full sun but I have one hive with a solid bottom board that is in shade = at least half a day and it has lasted 2 years + and is a good producer = of honey. I don't know why that should be true except that it was = started with a Russian queen package-though it replaced it's queen by = the spring of its second season.=20 Frankly beekeeping is a wonderful hobby for anyone interested in nature = but I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to make a living from = bees. I have great respect for any commercial beekeepers as I do for = farmers in general. For me beekeeping is a way of immersing myself in = nature and is richly rewarding. It does truly make one aware of the = weather and the annual cycle of seasons as few other things can. best = wishes to all the Bee-L'ers, Howard Kogan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:22:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Addison McMurtry Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? In-Reply-To: <000a01c57861$5a3a7af0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- allen dick wrote: > I'd like to hear from diverse list members why they > keep bees, what their > principles are and what their goals are. > I'm strictly a hobbyist beekeeper - I've had 1-3 hives for three years. I keep bees because I'm fascinated by their behavior, because my wife and I are avid gardeners, and because I love honey, and find the fresh raw honey to be far superior to what can be purchased in most stores. I enjoy the ceremony involved in harvesting the small amount of honey that I take, and the looks on the faces of family and friends when presented with a bottle with my label on it. I have no plans to sell honey. I decided early on that I wasn't going to treat the hives with chemicals. This of course has consequences - I bought two packages this spring. I use screened bottom boards, and am contemplating using Sucrocide. I do some basic manuevers (switching upper and lower deeps, early supering, cutting out swarm cells when I see them) to alleviate the urge to swarm, but don't really worry too much about it - my loss is the local ecosystem's gain. I've had both Italians and Russians - the Russians have done better for me but I may switch again (would like to try Carniolans) because I also find the Russians to be more defensive. I read ABJ and Bee Culture, and greatly enjoy Bee-L. I don't by any means find all of the posts relevant to my world, but have gotten some good ideas and learned from other's experiences. -Lee McMurtry Northern California __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:07:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Malone wrote: "....Royal Jelly is produced by the 'Worker Bee' from its pharyngeal glands to feed the larva. When fed lavishly to a larva, it hatches as a Queen Bee." Thanks for the references Keith! Very nice! but they do not specifically address 'feeding lavishly during the first 3 days' as responsible for producing a queen over a worker. I guess the point I am attempting to make is that if both worker and queen larvae are submerged in a "pool of royal jelly" for 2 to 3 days. In this condition, they both have an 'all you can eat' diet available of royal jelly, as they are both submerged in the food. They already have an adequate diet in order to develop and IMO would not consume more than they actually need to. Any 'lavishly feeding' during these 3 days beyond this adequacy would simply not be eaten by the larvae, as they are already consuming an adiquate diet of royal jelly. Bee Experts and Queen Breeders on the list, Is this an assumption the bee experts and queen breeders on this list are making?,,, or is there 'actual proof existing that a queen larvae eats more royal jelly than a worker during the first 2 or 3 days of larval development'? Thanks! ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:24:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Noble Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am a smalltime hobbyist beekeeper who wishes he had gotten started earlier in life because there is so much to know and learn in beekeeping that a person could use more than a lifetime to absorb it all. This is my 4th year keeping bees here on South Whidbey Island, Washington. This is a challenging place to get a honey crop. I think this is mostly because the main and, as far as I can tell, the only major flow comes from non native Himalayan blackberries which come in at a time (early June lasting to mid July) when the weather may not be at all cooperative. The last few years have seen a lot of folks getting into hobby beekeeping around here. Most of them seem to have a preference for some sort of natural approach which could mean a lot of different things to different people. Right now I am working with 6 hives, one of which may give some honey this year. One hive which I started on foundation for some friends has swarmed three times. We caught the second two and are trying to see if we can build them up for winter. I think it is important to remember that as beekeepers our relationship to our bees has the element of exploitation in it no matter what approach we may take. While I suppose it is possible that, inadvertently, bees may be exploiting man, it is mostly the other way around. For me, I am exploiting bees for the fun and fascination of it and, oh yes, I like to see if I can get some honey at the end of the season. I have used Apistan and Fumagil B, but lately I am trying to see how well I can do without that stuff. I have been working with Bill Rizucka’s formic acid approach since last year. I can’t say it’s the answer for me just yet, but I will continue with it for a while longer. I recently read a book called One Straw Revolution by Masanobu Fukuoka which made a lot of sense to me, and made me think about moving toward a more minimalist approach to bee keeping. I’ve been thinking that, with the world getting so much smaller and more crowded, it is getting more important to see everything we do in the largest possible context if for no other reason than it may reveal ways of doing things that give more desirable results, especially in the long run. But I don’t think of it so much as a moral issue as a practical one. I think humility and beekeeping go well together. Steve Noble South Whidbey, WA. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:27:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Ireland Subject: The quiet, but present In-Reply-To: <000801c5792e$d0c512c0$a11e9942@your2til5bzgjs> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I just want to say that I have enjoyed reading about the individuals who have written in lately more than anything else I have read on the BEE-L before. In some ways we are so much alike and in others very different. But we all seem to have one great thing in common. Thank you for sharing with the rest of us. And keep them coming. James :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:30:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? In-Reply-To: <200506252124.j5PKIo5V024104@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Twenty-one years ago shortly after my wife and I were married her father drove up our driveway outside of Charlottesville, Virginia in his old Dodge Dart. He backed up on the grass under a row of old cedar trees and, parked, went around the back of the car, opened the trunk and. And took out a beehive. At the time I had absolutely no interest in bees. Actually, I was one of those people, the ones who classified wasps and yellow jackets and honeybees all in the same grouping. BEES that Sting. After I watched him, from a distance, set up this hive in our yard (I might add, without a veil and gloves, Bill never wore gloves) he went back to the car and got out a bag and gave it to me. Inside was a smoker, a hive tool. Gloves, a veil and a book on beekeeping. This, it turned out, was our wedding present from my wife's father. "And when," he said over dinner that night, "when you feel comfortable being around your new hive you all can move up to the farm and start taking care of the rest of the hives." The next year we did move to the farm and during my summers when I was on vacation from my job as a high school teacher, Bill and I would work his 100 some hives. Well, Bill passed away a good decade ago now and I've been growing vegetables for a living (a large CSA operation) for just as long. But I still keep a couple dozen hives. The honey goes into the CSA shares, the bees help out with the pollination, and, I believe, that that first beehive was probably one of the best wedding presents anyone could receive. -- Leigh Hauter (\ (\ (\ (\ (\ {|||8- {|||8- {|||8- {|||8 - {|||8- (/ (/ (/ (/ (/ http://www.bullrunfarm.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:44:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: "....Royal Jelly is produced by the 'Worker Bee' from its pharyngeal glands to feed the larva. When fed lavishly to a larva, it hatches as a Queen Bee." Although many books say the above it is not *exactly *correct but is in part. J.w said: I guess the point I am attempting to make is that if both worker and queen larvae are submerged in a "pool of royal jelly" for 2 to 3 days. In this condition, they both have an 'all you can eat' diet available of royal jelly, as they are both submerged in the food. Many books say the above also which over simplifies the feeding of the queen larva. J. w. asks: Is this an assumption the bee experts and queen breeders on this list are making?,,, or is there 'actual proof existing that a queen larvae eats more royal jelly than a worker during the first 2 or 3 days of larval development'? Thanks! Many times I have pointed out improvements needed in bee books. If one reads carefully in two different places in the 92 edition of "The Hive & the Honey Bee" (page 210 & page 380) reference is made to the composition of royal jelly as fed to queen larva. No place I could find gave the ratio which would be helpful to understanding as Joe W. raises a valid question. However no place in the book I could find tells the exact amounts from each gland involved. I urge my friend Joe Graham to consider a change in upcoming editions or *correct me if I am wrong.* (rarely wrong but has happened on rare occasions when I did not understand the question). Royal jelly composition comes from two glands of the worker bee. The hypopharyngeal gland and the mandibular gland. The queen gets approx. 60-80% mandibular and the worker royal jelly is approx. 20-40% hypopharyngeal gland. In other words it is *not* the copius amounts as suggested by most bee books (if not all) which makes the queen (although the queen is fed copius amounts)BUT the different composition from different glands. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri "Beekeeping is simple and complicated at the same time" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:52:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Otto Hoel Subject: What kind of beekeeper are you? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I'm the hobby kind. With two hives, since I gave my third away to a friend. Live in Florida, and got -much to my surprise- about a hundred pounds of honey from the first harvest of the year. I'm in my second year as a beekeeper, and I'm having a blast. Reading and learning and observing my bees have been a most rewarding pastime. It took me some time to learn that the bees know more about beekeeping than I do, and actually leaving them alone as much as possible have been a problem. I always want to inspect too much. Now I look in the honey supers to see when to harvest, and I look in the topmost brood box only to check for brood pattern, presence of eggs, absence of disease, and such. And if everything is OK, I leave the bottom brood boxes alone. However, living in a residential neighborhood, swarms are a serious problem, I had one and a half this spring and my neighbors were not pleased. Next spring I will do whatever it takes to prevent swarms. I have one neighbor with young kids and a swimming pool, and having her knock on my door, looking rather sternly at me and informing me that my bees were in her backyard and would I please remove them before any of her kids got killed by thousands of bee stings. It turned out that "the swarm" was about a hundred bees clustering on a branch about 15 feet up. Probably a bunch of drones, but who knows. When I came back to catch them later that afternoon, they were all gone. She was pleased about that, but still not happy about having 120,000 bees right across the back fence. Of course I didn't give her the actual number. My one and a half real swarms didn't affect her. They settled across the fence in Mr. Wilson's orange tree. He tried to be cool about it, since he had encouraged my beekeeping adventure by telling me how good it would be for his tree, and how - when he was young - he used to get comb honey from an uncle of his every spring back "up north", but he was not real sure about the swarm and kept his distance from it. The swarm settled in two places. I thought it was two swarms. I got them both, and put them in hive boxes. The main swarm did really well and is now at my friends house, the other - the half swarm - was not queen right and died out. Mainly because I didn't want four hives and I didn't provide a frame with eggs. I got a laying worker so now I know what that looks like. Four eggs in one cell, jeez - what was she thinking :) Extracting is a Chinese fire drill. Get the bees off the frames with a fume board, except they will not all go so a bee brush is needed to provide some incentive, lift the super down on my little red wagon so I can drag it to my back porch, persuade a few more bees to let me have the frames alone, carry the super into the kitchen without letting any bees inside the house... And I haven't really started yet. I have three supers on each hive and I can pull a maximum of two at a time. Wrapped in some old bedding to keep the bees out. Did you know they can smell honey from about a million yards away? The bedding really isn't fooling them. It's good my wife likes the honey because there certainly is a lot of disbelieving head shaking from her during this procedure. But hey, I'm having fun, and my allergies are better - which is why I started with all this in the first place - and I'm learning new stuff. I'm still working full time as a network engineer/sysadmin and beekeeping is a very relaxing hobby. It puts me back in touch with the rhythm of life, the cycles of the year, and reminds me that we are not alone on this planet and that bees are doing an incredibly important job. Far more important than the one I do every day. It's a reality check I need when things get out of whack. Otto :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:03:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? In-Reply-To: <20050625042200.49198.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --- allen dick wrote: > I'd like to hear from diverse list members why they > keep bees, what their > principles are and what their goals are. > I've been keeping bees for about 10 years now and still consider myself very much a novice. I keep bees because I like the challenge and mystique that goes with it. I'm strictly a hobbyist or amateur beekeeper. The maximum number of hives I've had is 16, I currently have 10. I've recently have had great success in over wintering using reflectrix to wrap my hives individually. I haven't lost one in the last two years. When I over wintered using large commercial wraps encompassing 4 hives I averaged about 20% losses and sometimes a lot more. It gets very cold here in Manitoba in the winter, sometimes below -40C; I'm still amazed that the bees can endure these temperatures. Coming from Halifax I'm very much in awe of the winters here. One of the neat tricks I've learned from BEE-L is how to do side-by-each splits. I have limited space and keep my hives just outside the front door. When I do splits I displace the original hive about a foot laterally and place the split right next to it. This works fine for me. After a couple of weeks when things have stabilized I begin to move them apart a foot or so each day until I have a comfortable working space around the individual hives. I don't like store bought honey but love my own. I don't strain it but instead take it direct from the extractor and put it into large 25 litre containers. After a day or two all debris rises to the top and I take off clear honey through the spout on the bottom. Some years I sell up to a thousand pounds to the co-op and I give a lot away. I took a queen raising course from Marla Spivak in Minneapolis a couple of years ago but haven't got around to raising any queens to date although I intend to soon. I get my replacement queens from Hawaii or Australia through the co-op. My goal is to eventually raise my own replacement queens and to be chemical free. Sorry for the long post. Doug Henry Lockport Manitoba -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.1/28 - Release Date: 24/06/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:00:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glow Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a new beekeeper. I've wanted bees for as long as I can remember...= but we lived in the city and thought beekeeping was totally out of the questi= on. Then we moved to the mountains in northern California. I never dreamed life could be like this...sure there are chores and all, but the land is = so beautiful with the pine trees and rivers and I get to have bees and a lit= tle farm. I am lucky in that I can stay at home and work on the land. I am also an apprentice beekeeper at a large apiary and we do almond pollinati= on, breed queens, make nucs, etc. etc. I get to take the bees from the foulbrood colonies. I shake the bees onto foundation in a clean hive. I burn the old hives which is pretty sad. =0D =0D My first colony absconded...I think I looked at them too much. I got two more colonies and one was queenless so I combined them and boy, are they great bees! I can open up the hive and examine it without smoke or protective equipment unless it is in the evening and then I wear a veil. = I give them terramycin to make sure the foulbrood is gone for good! I also feed them special pollen patties that I make to help give them protein fo= r their brood raising. They also get sugar water and they go through about= 10 lbs. of sugar a week...and I thought hummingbirds were "bad" with all the sugar they consume. LOL =0D =0D I want to get two more colonies this summer...which I will do this week. = I plan on increasing my number to around 100 or so. I don't know how many = I can handle on my own though (my husband isn't a beekeeper...but he is a woodworker so hopefully he will teach me how to make hives and such). =0D =0D I love making things with the "gifts from the hive" such as candles and = I sell honey. I also like learning about queen breeding and want to try th= at.=0D =0D I have been enjoying hearing from all the other beekeepers here!=0D =0D Audrey Bowman=0D northern California :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:30:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology In-Reply-To: <20050625170743.55146.qmail@web20927.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >...both worker and queen larvae are submerged in a "pool of royal jelly" for 2 to 3 days... Well, a lot of people say that, but I don’t think it’s completely correct. Eva Crane writes this: “Worker larval food was found to contain only 12% sugar up to 1 1/4 days (it probably remained very low up to 2 1/2 days), whereas the food of a queen larval contained much sugar (34%) throughout the period when it was 1 to 4 days old” She goes on to say: "Worker larvae are fed at first on 'worker jelly' which is relatively low in sugars. After larvae are 1 1/2 to 3 days old the food is changed to 'modified worker jelly', with some honey and pollen." Mark Winston writes: “The food of queen larvae is referred to as “royal jelly”, and it differs from worker food in containing more mandibular gland secretions and in the quantity that is fed to the brood. The food of worker larvae contains a ratio of 2:9:3 of white to clear to yellow components (averaged over the 5 days of larval feeding). The white component contains mandibular gland secretions, the clear material originates form the hypopharyngeal glands, and the yellow component is mostly pollen. In contrast, queen larvae receive mostly white food during the first days, and a 1:1 ratio of white to clear during the last 2 days of feeding. Thus, queen larvae receive a much higher proportion of mandibular gland secretion than do worker larvae.” Diana Sammataro also distinguishes between “worker jelly” and “royal jelly” in her ‘The Beekeeper’s Handbook’ Harry Laidlaw writes in ‘Contemporary Queen Rearing’: “It has been shown that queens reared from larvae that began their development toward queens upon hatching had more ovarioles in the ovaries than those that were developing for even a few hours toward becoming workers.” While there is a 3 day window to successfully change the caste, it seems to me from what I read that queens or workers under normal circumstances develop into one or the other from the start depending on what they are fed. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:05:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: gkendall Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? In-Reply-To: <200506241351.j5ODaeQ0022140@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It has been interesting to hear who reads the list. I live and keep bees in western Sonoma county, CA. After about 15 years I'm still strictly a hobbyist, having ever had 3 colonies at most, I'm keeping 2 now. Living about 7 miles inland from the (cold) northern Pacific with the local weather (for instance, it's about 9:00 AM, 51F/11C here in the first week of summer!) my main concern is keeping a colony alive, forget, in all but a few years, getting honey. I'm considering trying to keep Orchard Mason Bees (if memory serves) as pollinators for my fruit trees. I read BEE-L for the same reason I read ABJ: to keep up with new developments. BEE-L also gives me a chance to read an occasional post from researcher in the field, especially Adrian Wenner, who I had the good fortune to meet a few years back, who's books I have read, and who's input I value highly. Greg Kendall gkendall@sonic.net Pilot, beekeeper, packet hacker, gentleman rancher. El rancho del gato muerto 38 24 28 N 122 58 29 W :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:03:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick, Bob, Joe & All, Thanks Bob & Dick for driving my point home about Better Queens. Those queens developed from the get go from an egg are better than those developed from a larva even apparently only a few hours old. So again I say that production queens reared by means of grafting are in affect only emergency queens. Some will be far better than others reared by the grafting method and some not so good soon to be superseded by the workers. The supersedure queen will be a Better Queen, contingent that there be enough drones to mate her, developed from an egg from the get go. Henry Alley and Jay Smith both developed methods of Queen rearing that either used eggs or very very young larvae younger than a day old. According to references provided by both Bob and Dick the best queens develop when fed properly from hatching from the egg. Alley's and Smith's methods may be crude and grafting is a way to push out hundreds of queens quickly but perhaps newer methods need developed to produce queens from eggs instead of from larvae. The fact that most beekeepers are small enough they can produce queens using Alley's or Smith's methods and achieve Better Queens than can be produced by production queen breeders. This is only one reason I am promoting that beekeepers rear and mate their own queens and learn to do it as close to the egg as possible. For the smaller beekeeper Swarming can be induced from selected breeder queens and queen cells used either in splits or mating nucs. These queens will be queens developed from eggs. As soon as the Swarm cells are started the breeder queen can be taken off by a small split of two frames for a short period to keep her at home and not flying off. We as beekeepers really should be doing our part in keeping bees, rearing queens is part of beekeeping and not as difficult to do as some think it is or some would like you to think it is. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:19:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology In-Reply-To: <004f01c579f0$aa69cea0$27bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit First, a big thanks to those responding and kind efforts in looking up references, much appreciated! I have interest in breeding feral queens in the future. I have documented areas where each feral was obtained, and any evidence that might suggest the likelihood that they are influenced more to the feral side surviving in the wild for 4 to 5 years or more. As a first step, I determined a high priority that I reduce risk and preserve a few traits I am seeing in a few ferals. I decided that I would make these couple of colonies queenless and use the queen cells to make up several colonies. Problem is, the mother feral queen usually has an excellent brood pattern, and the daughters although having an acceptable brood pattern, do not have an equally impressive pattern as the mothers had. Do you believe this may due to them reared from emergency queen cells? Also, I'm assuming from answere in previous posts that the genetics are ok in these under performing queens and the problem my be that they have not developed adequate ovaries due to them being emergency bred. If this is the case, would I be correct in assuming that quality queens can be bred from these under performers that have the existing underlining traits I am wanting to keep?,,, providing the queens be started from egg? Or should I destroy these queens and go back to the mother queen? Thanks! ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:00:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rodney Angell Subject: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I read the bee-l digest regularly but seldom reply. I've been keeping bees for about eleven years now and truly enjoy my hobby. I have 17 hives right now but that fluctuates a lot each year. I sell almost all my honey to co-workers (which averages around 25 to 45 gals a year) and I sell my honey at top prices and have always run out before the next harvest. I don't think I want more than 20 hives until after I retire in 15 years. I hope to build a honey house this next year just to get out of my wife's kitchen (I can make quite a mess). I'm a member of our local club, Missouri Valley Beekeepers Association, and try to stay involved as much as I can to help out. Next year I think I'm going to try to start raising my own queens. I guess I'll get one of those queen rearing kits and study about it more this winter. I used swarm cells to requeen this year from my best hive. Well, happy beekeeping. Rodney in Rosebud MO :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:45:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, the response on this thread so far has been a delight. Now that some have broken the ice, I'm hoping that we still get many more responses from those who have been lurking. I'm also hoping that some of those who took a chance and jumped in, having posted and found the response encouraging, will now continue to add their comments and questions to the discussions. Of course, it would be fascinating now for the old-timers who have been on this list for ten years or more to also tell their tales about starting bees. I plan to do just that when I have more than a few seconds to write. Now that I am retired, I have very little free time, as those who have been loyal followers of my (now neglected) diary may have noticed. Thanks to all those who have shared. Keep 'em coming folks! allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:14:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --- allen dick wrote: > I'd like to hear from diverse list members why they > keep bees, what their > principles are and what their goals are. > Well I got into beekeeping because Their wasn't any working my apple trees. So brought bees in. So my 40+ trees get worked on now. THis is a working farm. So the bees provide income in spring and in fall apple crop comes in. My goals are retire on my 401k April 9th 2017 : ). Also have the farm producing bigger crop in volume. And keep selling honey. Russ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:17:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kent Stienburg Subject: honey flow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, I'm wondering how everyone's honey flow is progressing. Mine is = terrible. Last year this time I had 3 supers on my hives with one hive = producing 181 lbs. This year I only have 1 super on and none of them = would have more than 2 frames. Its been very hot here in Kingston = Ontario Canada with very little rain, while last year was the opposite. = Sweet clover is just blooming now so I hope that will help. =20 Regarding the post from Allen about "What type of beekeeper are you" = Both my grandparents had kept bees. My grandfather would take me out = and show me the bees on the apple trees. So a few years later I bought = my first hive from an old Polish fellow who was the resident expert. He = taught me enough to get going. I asked my dad to help me pick up the = hive but he said " I'm not getting any where near those stinging $%&!#&* = :)" So my mother came and we picked up the hive and put it in the back = set of the car. She was terrified and I was a tad bit nervous to :) = But I held on to it and never looked back. They have been teaching me = ever since. After almost 26 years I am starting to remember some = things :) Now my 7 year old is wondering when he gets his bee suit. = Maybe its genetic :) Kent Stienburg :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:19:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: How Good is Good Enough? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Thanks Bob & Dick for driving my point home about Better Queens. Those > queens developed from the get go from an egg are better than those > developed > from a larva even apparently only a few hours old... I think most of us understand that there are many subtle factors to consider in trying to raise the ideal queen, and I think we all have read the words of many well-respected scientists and beekeepers about the importance of using high quality queens, but this discussion arose out of the question of how good emergency queens are compared to commercial or home-raised queens, so -- without meaning to interrupt the thread -- I would like to return to the original question and its implications under this new subject line: "How Good is Good Enough?" ----- Of course, if the cost in time effort and money were the same, we all would take a perfect queen over a lesser queen every time, but, usually the cost is not the same, and we must decide how much we can invest before the extra costs exceed the extra expected returns. Would we pay $100 per queen for a queen that is 10% better than a $20 queen? Would we pay $20 for a queen that is 10% better than a free queen? That depends, I suppose. Some would pay any amount for perfection, just to have perfection, but others want a return for every dollar they spend, so they expect $80 more back from a $100 queen than from a $20 queen, or $20 more back from a $20 queen than from a free queen, and, considering the risks of loss or weather, and the fact that they don't risk money just to break even, they would add a risk premium of at least 20%, making that $96 in the first instance and $24 in the second. Moreover, I think that most of us realise that a lot of the supposed extra capacity of a super queen can be totally wasted in the real world. For me, in the real world, the best possible queen is not the one with the most ovarioles, but rather the one that causes me the least trouble and makes me the most money back for what I risk, and that is very often an average queen, and older queen, or an emergency queen. I realise that some will immediately jump in and say that if you are raising queens that it is just as easy, or almost as easy to raise perfect queens as to raise scrub queens. I concur that this is often true, but I have seen a lot of pretty poor stuff from suppliers who are doing their best and have to say that if you have to supply in season and using hired help, etc., the odds are against making the grade all the time. Moreover, that argument assumes that we are actually going to raise or buy a queens and not let the old queen go one more year or let the bees requeen themselves. I agree that if you are grafting or buying a queen, then you might as well do it right, since it is not much harder to do so, but I am saying, "Forget grafting, and unnecessary replacing unless you are sure it is worth the effort, and that will depend on your area and on honey prices". In my experience, in my area, there are only short periods where a queen gets to perform flat-out. The rest of the time, queens are constrained by feed, the number bees available to raise brood, the weather, etc.; they are throttled back and running under capacity. Maybe the hot queen gets a bit ahead for a few weeks, but the slower queen may match her in the long run. IMO, at current honey prices, 'good enough' is a lower standard than it was when honey was two or three times the price. As I see it, anyhow. allen Opinions are not facts... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:47:49 +0200 Reply-To: Paul Collett Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Collett Organization: Rhodes University Subject: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I am from South Africa and work with A.m. capensis and A.m. scutellata bees. I began working with bees about 2 years ago when I was working for a meadery in the region while I completed my B.Sc. During this time I dabbled in some research which was very interesting but lacked funding to continue. I am presently busy with an honours degree in Ichthyology, which leaves me little time for my bees except weekends, and my bees are 220km away from where I live, on my family farm. I have gradually built up through catching feral swarms to 55 hives, and should be close to 100 after this swarming season. The area I keep bees in is known as the Karroo, which is reputedly arid, so when I hear about all the significant honey flows in the states, i go green with envy, because the most I have is a tiny yellow flower called Acacia Karroo. However, even with the dry area's, my bees produce more than most in South Africa, and I took 1.8 tonne of honey off in the last season. I sell all my honey to the meadery I used to work at. I don't contribute much to BEE-L, largely because my knowledge is limited to South African bees, and the majority of beekeepers are from Europe or the States. So I read posts which are of interest to me and occasionally post. Generally, when I have a question, I go to the library or net and search for the result, because our bees are so different to most of yours. Happy posting Paul Collett Acacia Apiaries :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:52:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rodney & All, > I used swarm cells to requeen this year > from my best hive. > Can't ask for any Better Queens than that from a swarm cell except maybe that from a supersedure cell. Queens from swarm & supersedure cells are reared from the egg and fed specially by the bees to produce premium queens. You did good by the bees using swarm cells from the best colony you keep. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:28:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pencaemawr Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Malone" >Alley's and Smith's methods may be > crude and grafting is a way to push out hundreds of queens > quickly but > perhaps newer methods need developed to produce queens > from eggs instead of > from larvae. > Although I have not used it, I understand that the Jenter queen rearing kit should do this. The queen is confined for 24 hours on a set of plastic queen cells and quickly lays them up. These cells with 24 hour old eggs are then transfered to the usual queen-rearing frame and, with the usual reliance on a bit of luck, quickly drawn out. If I understand the process correctly, this should result in correct feeding from the start. John Burgess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:14:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Purely a hobbyist, currently with four hives. I'd like to expand but I'm suffering from lack of time at the moment. I've had bees for five years, with more downs than ups; at the moment I have one hive which is booming, one which is stagnating, and two splits. The strong hive is on small cell, the others are on a promiscuous mix of sizes. I'm holding off on routine varroa treatment and trying to monitor what's actually going on in the hives; at the very least I need to understand the dynamics of infestation better. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:26:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dale Marmaduke Subject: What kind of beekeeper are you In-Reply-To: <200506270400.j5R4009e022400@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started bees with the hope of becoming a relaxed full time $$$beekeeper$$$ (the dream). I soon realized it is not easy or profitable for my skill level and location(the reality). I now try to keep 30 hives, but lost 3/4 last winter. I am still doing splits in late June to get back up. (late deliver of queens, poor population, etc.....and yes, I fed early spring, and treated last fall.) Only a few hives have honey supers. About 1/3 are still in single hive bodies. I am now in my sixth year of effort. The first year, I had one hive, starting from package and new frames. That one hive filled three supers of honey. I have not seen a hive that good since. As of today, expecting only a small honey crop from soybeans and fall weeds. Others around seem to do much better or they can lie better than me. I have looked at the professional beekeeper's hives and they are much, much stronger than mine. We are in the same area and I beleive having the same care and treatments! I did change queen supplies this year, but really believe the queens are not the problem. I enjoy selling and giving away what crop I have. I enjoy watching the bees. I enjoy most aspects. I enjoy trying to improve. Not everyone can be a good beekeeper. Thus, what kind of beekeeper am I, "disappointed but happy". Dale Marmaduke Greenwood, Indiana dmarmad@iquest.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:36:52 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Bee-beard attempt. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain An interesting link on a recent attempt for a record bee-beard: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4623497.stm Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:43:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glenn Hile Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? In-Reply-To: <139a01c57aa0$b1b878e0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am located in west central Ohio and a corn breeder by training. I started in bees 3 years ago when my wife gave me a beekeeping outfit for Xmas, knowing that I had wanted to keep bees for a number of years. Put out 2 hives the first year and they did really well. Expanded to 6 the next year and they seemed to go into winter very strong. By this spring I was disappointed as only one remained alive. Not to be discouraged, I purchased a couple of nucs and packages this spring and am back up to 6 colonies. Seem to be building up well but cold wet spring followed by hot dry weather has slowed their progress. Really enjoy reading ABJ, Bee Culture and the lively discussions on Bee-L (Jim / George where are you?). Read everything I can get my hands on about bees. My wife claims that I fret over them more than I did our children. I am trying some of the newer Russian genetics and trying different production methods. So much to learn and so little time. Glenn Hile Greenville, Ohio :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:48:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: bee trucks and loaders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Peter John Keating" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" References: <200506211758.j5LHonAV013268@listserv.albany.edu> Subject: Re: [BEE-L] bee trucks and loaders Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:41:38 -0400 Hi, here in Quebec the regulations for trucks are fairly strict and if your are overloaded and caught then it costs a lot of money. My peference is for a truck that is really made for the load you need to carry. The ¾ ton and 1 ton trucks have capacities of around 6,000 lbs. or 100 fairly full supers. If you keep within these limits then the vehicle is still safe to drive and you shouldn't damage the the mechanics. The new ones have much more powerful engines to match. The ezyloaders are still available; I have sold a good few in this province. On my Inter I have an old Payne loader which works well but requires a swinging circle of 48 feet!! It's for sale! A Bobcat or Swinger is a much more versatile creature and allows you not to take the risk of getting stuck with the truck. Leave the truck on the hard surface and run the hives in with the lift. I have a small ¾ 4WD for light work and a small Inter low profile (c/w air suspension) for moving bees and the honey crop. If you can do some mechanics you can buy s/h and save. I paid CAN$16,000 for the Inter. Which is a lot less than some of the "one tons" on the market. It also turns tighter than my ¾ 4WD pick-up. 4 WD often means that you get stuck further in the field! They are also costly on drive train components, and usually have no differential between the axles which induces "wind-up" which is great on the drive train! Another case for an Inter is that the parts often cost less than for pick-ups and have a longer life span. Mine has over 350,000 kms. and still in reasonable shape. If you need more info you can contact me direct. Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Lord" > > I am interested in other people's opinions and > > experiences with bee trucks and loaders. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:00:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stephen Fairfax Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Allen asked for posts from people who read but don't post often, aka lurkers. I am a hobby beekeeper with three hives after starting with two. I started beekeeping after struggling with pollination issues in our small vegetable garden for several years. I started keeping bees in 2000 after reading most of the winter of 1999-2000. I attended the EAS summer bee schools in 2000 and 2001, where I met Dewey Caron, Sue Colby, Rickie Cooper, George Imirie, and many others. I found the bee schools very helpful. I am the kind of person who reads instruction manuals, so I assembled a modest library on beekeeping, ranging from practical to research. I read "The Hive and the Honeybee" from cover to cover, although of course I did not retain all of it, and still consult it and other resources regularly. I started with Italians from York (both queens superceded) but switched to Carnolian in 2001 (my bees did not overwinter successfully 2000-2001). I bought my queens from Strachan because they participate in Sue Colby's OSHU breeding program. I have not been fully satisfied. Supercedure has been a constant problem, and mutt queens (pretty much all other local beekeepers keep Italians) seem much more likely to result in aggressive hives. I have also not seen consistent laying patterns, and I question the program's decision to breed for larger winter cluster size. I wanted Carnolians precisely because of their small winter cluster and conservative use of honey when overwintering, plus their beautiful white comb. I have been concentrating on cut comb honey since starting beekeeping. I did not care to invest in an extractor (an old one has since come my way) and I wanted to produce a premium product. I sell the cut comb to local farm stores for $5 a section; they mark it to $6.50 to $7.50 and sell it. They sell all I give them. It more or less covers my costs, not my time, and certainly not my mistakes, which are numerous. I eat the second-quality sections and give a fair amount away to friends, neighbors, and family. My next-door neighbor is an expert in medieval meads so this past season I spun out a few gallons of honey and traded it to her for 50% of the mead she will make from it. I test and treat for varroa. I used the commercial formic acid packs the one season that they were available, they seemed to work well, and since I did not keep the packs for a long time, I did not see the leakage problems that caused them to be withdrawn. I've experimented with sugar dusting and was not impressed. Apistan strips seem to work, but I dislike putting poisons in the hive, even though I follow the instructions to the letter. My property is a partially wooded acre, but there is excellent forage from both crops and extensive wildflowers in nearby conservation areas. I get a fairly steady nectar flow if the rain is good, and the bees work goldenrod and purple loosestrife late into the fall. I wonder if these sources are part of my overwintering problems, see below. I have introduced many friends, coworkers, and colleagues to beekeeping, and two other couples are now keeping bees, one in a rural area, one in a small backyard in a Boston suburb. My overwintering experience has not been good. I live in the Boston area. If the winter is relatively mild, with one or two weeks of subzero temperatures interspersed with thaws, the bees do fine. The winter before last they did so well that one hive exploded in the spring and pitched my first swarm. When the winters have a solid month when it never gets above freezing, the bees die in their hives, inches from untouched honey. Wrapping with felt paper does not seem to change the odds, although I haven't had enough trials to be sure one way or the other. Fall feeding does not seem to help, as the bees prefer the goldenrod and loosestrife to sugar water, and the hives tend to be nearly honey-bound by the end of September. Last winter was a terrible one, with a bitterly cold January and a record amount of snow. I tried emergency feeding. Mid-February was the first time I dared take a peek, two hives had already died. One hive made it into March but was extremely weak and succumbed a few weeks later. In February, after discovering the two dead-outs, I ordered two packages and queens from Bolling Bee Farms in Jackson's Gap, Alabama. I have been interested in their Grey Caucasian line since discussing them with Rickie Cooper at one of the EAS bee schools. I have tried to order in years past but they were always booked by the time I called. This year they accepted my order and cashed my check. Alas, Bolling Bee is under new management, and whether it was the transition or the poor weather this spring, they did not deliver the packages, and "A swarm in July isn't worth a fly." I am very disappointed and very much miss the buzzing of the bees around the hives on a summer afternoon, the smell of the curing honey, and the quiet contemplation of these fascinating insects. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:00:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: More on Queen Biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith said: > perhaps newer methods need developed to produce queens > from eggs instead of > from larvae. I don't understand. Until an egg hatches and egg is just an egg. My research has proven such to me. >Although I have not used it, I understand that the Jenter queen rearing kit should do this. If you wished to put eggs in a cell cup a queen rearing system would be better than trying to transfer the egg with a grafting tool in my opinion but eggs certainly could be transfered with a tool for those with skill. >the queen is confined for 24 hours on a set of plastic queen cells and quickly lays them up. Having used the jenter system since the systems introduction (along with grafting) I will say there are two types of queens. The queens which accept the plastic queen system and lay full and the queen which thinks "something is not right here" and will lay few eggs in plastic. If a person has skill in grafting like I saw with Dr. Marla Spivak last week then there is little need for the jenter system. Skill in grafting takes time to develop. >These cells with 24 hour old eggs are then transfered to the usual queen-rearing frame and, with the usual reliance on a bit of luck, quickly drawn out. If I understand the process correctly, this should result in correct feeding from the start. Could be done as John suggests but not the way recommended. At 24 hours the caged queen is removed. At the end of 90 hours from the time the queen was first caged the larva are transferred to the queen rearing frame. Using eggs has no purpose as the starter bees are not needed until the larva hatch and need care. Much research has been done on using eggs and no improvement in queens was seen. To sum things up the best queens are had from the first instar stage larva. Commercial beekeepers & queen producers work on avarages. They do not expect 100% . Some are happy with 50%. Others use 80-90% as normal. Off topic: To the few commercial beekeepers reading this post which are happy with 50% losses I say : Did you ever figure the cost of a deadout in labor and restocking? Lost production? Lost pollination fees. Picking up all those deadouts and storing till the next season. Loading pallets with missing hives on trucks. All the picking up hives and moving to other pallets to fill pallets? Keep bees in those boxes! The cost of piling on supers and extracting supers half full of honey ? Costs as much in labor to extract a super half full of honey as a full one. Add as needed especially towards the end of a honey flow! Costs of treating without any idea of need? Treatments are not cheap in terms of cost and labor! Costs of losing 50% of hives or higher because you took a chance on a control a friend told you about off the internet *without testing halfway through the treatment to see if working*. Being a better beekeeper pays instead of costs! Are you seriously running more hives than you and your help can take care of? Hmmm. Less than 80-90% averages in commercial beekeeping hurt the bottom line. In a recent article in a bee magazine the commercial beekeeper claimed 50% losses as normal in a season. Reading about his operation I can see why he had 50% losses but thats another story. I am old enough to be his father. Was keeping bees before he was born. Lessons learned the hard way are the lessons you remember! If he is still in the bee business ten years from now I figure he will have a different opinion on 50% losses being ok. Commercial beekeeping is hard work if done correctly. Bob "You can't keep bees today like Grandpa did years ago" George Imirie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:26:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Bee-beard attempt. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For me the most impressive thing about the attempt, was that the 'Black bees@ were so docile. The were the 'Galtee Strain' which Micheál MacGiolla Coda has bred for productivity over the years. The proof of their docility is shown by the fact that Micheál was completely unprotected whilst he moved to and fro carrying skeps of bees and emptying them near Philip McCabe. The weather conditions were not perfect with a cold North wind to start with making the bees slow to move onto Philip. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- > a recent attempt for a record bee-beard: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:11:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 27/06/05 11:44:34 GMT Daylight Time, alaskabeekeeper@HOTMAIL.COM writes: <> Perhaps,but if you keep doing this aren't you selecting for swarminess? Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:55:41 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: How Good is Good Enough? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the odds are against making the grade all the time. I agree. You are dealing with nature. To give an example, how many horses are bred form the best genetic stock and end up in tins of pet food? It is the same with bees. You cannot get 100% great queens no matter what method you are using. > "Forget grafting, and unnecessary replacing unless you are sure it > is worth the effort, and that will depend on your area and on honey > prices". As it is stated it depends on your area. For me, as I have explained before, and we seem to be going over old ground in the past week or so, walk aways do not work for me. My experience in my area. However I would not be bold enough to recommend that all should do my way. I would recommend requeening annually for those who migrate. This is also recommended by many successful beekeepers in our area so it is not a case of my trying to boost queen sales for my own profit. The queen lays for 12 months of the year and in our area there are may pollen deficient flows worked. From my experience, I have left queens in hives past the 12 months, I normally requeen in autumn (fall) as that is when I have spare queens for myself. In spring they do not perform as well as those hives that have been requeened in autumn. There are some exceptions with some new queens not performing and occasionally a queen over 12 months old will perform satisfactorily. But hey, as I said I am dealing with nature and I cannot expect to get perfection in the performance of my queens. > In my experience, in my area, there are only short periods where a queen > gets to perform flat-out. My experience is above and is different. > IMO, at current honey prices, 'good enough' is a lower standard than it > was > when honey was two or three times the price. Why accept a lower standard? Even in the current situation with lower prices, it is better to strive for the best and produce more honey with less effort by keeping your standards high. Sure you do not get the same price but if you produce more for less effort, then you must be ahead financially. Instead of becoming glum and accepting lower standards, have pride and keep your standards up to what you expect. Things will change. > Opinions are not facts... I agree and all that has been posted to date, with the exception of Medhat, has been opinion. Yes mine is opinion. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:52:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marvin Moose III Subject: What kind of beekeeper are you? I am a hobbyist beekeeper with eight hives at the moment, started this spring with eleven. I originaly started keeping bee's in the early eighties for only a few years and lost interest. I got back into beekeeping in 2001 and have dedicated all of my spare time to learn all I can about this most interesting insect. I am an active member of the Gaston County Beekeepers Association which is a chapter of the North Carolina State beekeepers Association. Through our meetings I have gained a lot of knowledge as well as made a lot of new friends. Im new to Bee-l and have enjoyed reading all of the post and learning from others in this most important quest, the survival of the Honey Bee. I never knew that I could get so attached to a bee and it has really agraviated me that I have lost three hives this summer. But that is for another post that I plan write as I an running out of time on this one. My main Queen Bee is hanging over my shoulder and requesting my attention. God Bless to All and may your Bee's Fare Well. Marvin Moose Lowell, NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:36:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by grumpy7@MSN.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of = previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=3D28573E74) (85 lines) = -------------------From: "walter weller" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" References: Subject: Re: Re: [BEE-L] What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:31:55 -0500 For Allen's collection of start-up stories: My wife decided I needed a hobby and got us a hive of bees from a friend =3D for Father's Day. That was in June, 1994, "the year of the mite" here = =3D in central Louisiana. In September the friend/mentor called to tell me =3D all his hives were dead, and recommended I start Apistan. I did, and = =3D used it till it wore out, then tried the other stuff for a couple of =3D years, and now am on a system of benign neglect, live-and-let-die, with =3D IPM features, and growing a few survivors. I'm a beeHAVER now. (Sorry, =3D George.) I had total losses the first two years I went this way, but = =3D now it seems to be working. Half the packages (Russians) that I =3D restocked with in 2004 have survived into this, their second year, and I =3D picked up a couple of good-looking feral swarms. I've even gotten off a =3D fair crop this year even with record dry weather in May and June, and = =3D have started feeding. I have one really productive survivor colony that =3D I'd like to clone. Maybe I will. I've learned much. One thing I've learned is that 80 years old is a lot =3D different from 70. Walter=20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:13:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: honey flow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by gfcg7312003@YAHOO.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material.=20 ----------------- Original message (ID=3D7A64E214) (50 lines) ------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:35:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: [BEE-L] honey flow To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Here in Southeast Missouri, the honey flow is pretty good, but spotty. We've had timely rains, but we're dry. The weather finally turned hot and humid and the nectar flow picked up significantly. I've pulled some frames of honey and extracted from selective hives. I've pulled off a couple of supers of comb honey. We're doing quite well. To the East of me, it's very dry and most plants have finished blooming. Grant Jackson, MO :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:21:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robert, > Perhaps,but if you keep doing this aren't you selecting for swarminess? > Not necessarily, You can induce swarming by a couple of ways. Also swarming is a natural occurrence of colonies that are doing extremely well and not a bad thing inherently in my opinion, you just have to manage the impulse. Yes Robert, I would much rather colonies supersede than swarm to answer your next question and would select for this when found and to reproduce the most well developed and numbers of queens you could induce swarming impulse to achieve these numbers from such a strain instead of just relying on the few cells supersedure gives.. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:59:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I met a local beekeeper, Bob Hughes, a number of years ago at a local fair and asked a lot of questions. He said I could stop by anytime, but it wasn't until two years later that I had the chance to do so. We visited one of his bee yards, he opened the lid on a hive (this was mid summer, a lot of honey on the bees) and I got stung. I liked the smell of the pine woodenware, the aroma of the wax and honey. The bees clearly seemed to know what they were doing, and Bob's relationship to his bees was somehow compelling for me. I announced to my four kids at dinner later that I was planning to get some bees, and at least one cried at the prospect. Now six years later I have about 18 hives, manage to produce a decent crop while not venturing more than 5 miles from home, and find the relationship with the bees a source of continual inspiration. The problem of low overwintering survival rates in the last two years has been frustrating, but in the overall scheme of things I know that ! beekeepers have weathered far worse than I have, such when varroa and trachea mites first arrived. I have also managed a bit of AFB, with some successful recoveries and some losses. With AFB the toughest issue for me is whether to treat prophyllactively (every year) or inspect often enough to treat only when an infection is present. I still use wax foundation, and even hot wire my frames, but only run two wires down the brood frames. I do a number of school presentations, which I enjoy ( but avoid doing too many - it can seem like a full time job). My goal is to get organized enough to have that work done in advance in the winter months, instead of at the last minute, but it may take me a few more years to reach that goal. I'm grateful to Bob, the beekeepers of New Jersey and elsewhere, those overseas who contribute to this list, and all those men and women who, like the honey robbers 8,000 years ago in Spain, feel obliged to spread the word about just what amazing creature! s honey bees are. Curtis Crowell Hightstown, NJ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:39:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robert, Keith & all > > Perhaps, but if you keep doing this aren't you selecting > > for swarminess? > > Not necessarily, You can induce swarming by a couple of ways. > Also swarming is a natural occurrence of colonies that are > doing extremely well There is a difference between colonies that swarm when they have bountiful resources, and those colonies that swarm too readily. Many colonies in UK are still those that have derived from the age of skep beekeeping, which automatically selects for rapid swarming, such colonies are often not well founded at the time of swarming and can produce barely no surplus after a swarm has issued. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 5.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:30:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: honey flow In-Reply-To: <003201c57abe$5cb0e940$6a436642@a8a3e2> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6DE87124 > how everyone's honey flow is progressing. In NW Vermont/NE New York, I'm sitting on an incredible flow. It started early...before Dandelion. The bees were filling supers...and broodnests...on the second blooming willow...Salix bebbiana. Unheard of here. The flow continued through Dandelion, Locust, Honeysuckle...best I've ever seen from this...Brambles, and now into clovers. What a clover bloom! The heat and humidity is really making the nectar flow. Most colonies have 3 mediums capped, with many having 4. I plan on starting harvest next week, so I can have some empty supers to put back on for Basswood/Sweet Clover...weeks earlier than normal. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.8.0/27 - Release Date: 6/23/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 04:55:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave & All, > There is a difference between colonies that swarm when they have bountiful > resources, and those colonies that swarm too readily. > I agree, and the obvious selection would not be the colonies that swarm too readily. Those are the colonies that would be requeened. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:37:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: How Good is Good Enough? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As it is stated it depends on your area. For me, as I have explained > before, and we seem to be going over old ground in the past week or so, > walk > aways do not work for me. My experience in my area. However I would not > be > bold enough to recommend that all should do my way. I would recommend > requeening annually for those who migrate. This is also recommended by > many > successful beekeepers in our area so it is not a case of my trying to > boost > queen sales for my own profit. The queen lays for 12 months of the year > and > in our area there are may pollen deficient flows worked. From my > experience, I have left queens in hives past the 12 months, I normally > requeen in autumn (fall) as that is when I have spare queens for myself. > In > spring they do not perform as well as those hives that have been requeened > in autumn... Very good comments, and worth repeating, so I have not trimmed much. >> IMO, at current honey prices, 'good enough' is a lower standard than it >> was when honey was two or three times the price. > > Why accept a lower standard? Even in the current situation with lower > prices, it is better to strive for the best and produce more honey with > less > effort by keeping your standards high. As long as the incremental cost in dollars, risk and effort to 'strive for the best' is not greater than the value of the 'more honey' that can be reasonably expected, there is no reason to 'accept a lower standard'. However, the cost of maintaining the 'high standard' must be determined, and compared to the returns expected from doing so, to know for sure. All that is assuming that economics matters, as it may not in the case of someone with trust fund or a hobbyist, but must -- at least somewhat -- in most cases. I guess my point is that if the idea is to get maximum profitability with minimum effort and cost, the expected return from sale of the end product will have a big influence on the input decisions, as will the degree of certainty of receiving that return at some time later than the expenses are incurred. When the end product has a high and certain value, simple math justifies more input expense than when the end product drops to a low or uncertain value -- assuming the inputs do not also drop in price. The decision as to how much effort and expense to invest is simply a matter of determining at which point an additional effort or expense will not produce enough additional dollars (or yuan) to pay back that additional expense and produce a profit. For some, the solution to the equations in the face of declining honey prices may indicate an increase in per unit expense and output, for others it may indicate reducing expenses and output. For some, there may be no solution to the equations that produces an income, and a quick exit is indicated, unless there is a another, outside source of support, and a strong desire to continue, even in the face of apparently unending future losses. > Sure you do not get the same price > but if you produce more for less effort, then you must be ahead > financially. This is true in some instances, but, it is also true that if you produce a little less with a lot less effort, cost and risk, you may also be financially ahead, and also quite possibly ahead of the guy who produces 'more for less effort' -- especially if his expenses and risks are higher, and *especially* if you are both losing money, hunkered down, holding out, and just waiting for things to get better. Under any given market conditions, migratory beekeepers, pollinators, honey producers and hobbyists will all have differing expectations, management systems and profit/loss regimes. Further, even among beekeepers in each classification, inputs that may be critically important in one operation may be much less critical in another, due to the way things are done, and buffering factors -- intentionally introduced by management or not -- that reduce dependence on that input. Thus we see one beekeeper with one brand new truck, and another doing the same job with one or several older ones, with each achieving the same result, and possibly the same profitability. Again, this is, for me, all a matter of optimizing for the circumstances, and, as we have agreed, these may differ in many ways, as may personal goals. Thanks. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:34:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: How Good is Good Enough? In-Reply-To: <004801c57b6b$58e88e00$8963443d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" The ongoing discussion about queen biology and quality is great. It is an excellent form to share experiences and opinions. I will remind who are interested to learn about queen rearing and breeding to read " Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding" by Laidlaw and Page. This is an excellent book that covers a lots of ground on production of quality queens. In fact, you don't have to start rearing queens from eggs to produce queens that make the grade. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:02:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: How Good is Good Enough? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > you don't have to start rearing queens from eggs to produce queens > that make the grade. Going from memory, it seems to me that Steve Tabor tried grafting eggs and found problems with doing so. FWIW. allen http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:51:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Meldrum Organization: Dave Subject: Cleaning Extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I am new to beekeeping and was lucky enough to acquire a used honey extractor. It had been sitting in a barn for the last five years and needed a good cleaning. The dust and dirt came off pretty easily but the basket seems to have some propolis on the wire basket. I have tried steel wool but it is awfully tedious. How do you clean it off? I have seen these little steamers for sale for around $40. I wonder how effective they would be. What do you folks clean up an extractor after a harvest? - Dave :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:31:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: How Good is Good Enough? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & All, > Going from memory, it seems to me that Steve Tabor tried grafting eggs and > found problems with doing so. > To rear queens from the egg you would not graft the eggs, read Henry Alley's "The New Method of Queen Rearing" copyright 1883. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:02:49 -0600 Reply-To: MWestall Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: MWestall Subject: Re: Cleaning Extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave, Depending on whether your extractor is painted or not, a propane torch and a roll of paper towels come in awfully handy in cleaning propolis from steel. ---- Original Message ----- > tried steel wool but it is awfully tedious. How do you > What do you folks clean up an extractor after a harvest? > > - Dave :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:06:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Brown Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I started beekeeping as a 10-11 year old, when I "inherited" my grandfather's 2 hives he kept to pollinate his orchard (he developed allergies to bee stings). As a teen I built up the apairy producing comb honey for Draper's Super Bees. A turn of events led to a different career than beekeeping and I have spent the last 22 plus years in the US Air Force, where I have had the opportunity to visit with beekeepers around the world (Phillipines, Korea, Middle East). At some of the places I have also been lucky enough to have a hive or 2 of my own. Now as I am approaching retirement, I have been building up a sideline operation in the Florida Pan handle. In this operation, I practise making walk away splits (My best results come when I make sure there is no larvae but rather eggs in 1 frame with 2 frames of capped brood. Some of the walk away splits I made early this year produced a surplus of 4-5 illinois supers of honey. I use Api life var, and powdered sugar to keep va! rroa in check. And I am the president of the Tupelo beekeepers Assosciation. -- _______________________________________________ NEW! Lycos Dating Search. The only place to search multiple dating sites at once. http://datingsearch.lycos.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:15:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gary Wheaton Subject: Re: Cleaning Extractor Comments: To: Dave Meldrum Clean after harvest???? Just kidding. I have a 1650psi pressure washer that I use, if it is stainless steel, DO NOT USE BLEACH, it removes the nickel from the steel causeing it to rust. When I cleaned mine the first time I used plenty of hot water, a green scouring pad, dish soap, and elbow greese. Another thing I've used is baking soda and salt make it into a paste and scrub, rinse and away you go. Good luck. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:06:29 -0400 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Cleaning Extractor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hot cooking oil will emulsify propolis. Get it as hot as you can, without smoking. Wear gloves and saturate the propolis. When it is gone, you need to go over everything to remove the oil! Plain soap and water does the job. Good luck, Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:06:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Jerry's in New Zealand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry dropped a line that he is in New Zealand,and can read, but not post to BEE-L from his mail account, and asked me to relay a message. He says, "I'd like to spread the word that I'm in New Zealand for a couple of weeks and hope to meet some of the NZ bee-l folks". NZ beekeepers interested in meeting Jerry can write him at BeeResearch@aol.com allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:44:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Re: What Kind of Beekeeper Are You? In-Reply-To: <139a01c57aa0$b1b878e0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quote from Allen Dick: > Now that I am retired, I have very little free time . . . You too, eh? I was afraid I might be bored when I retired. That hasn't been a problem. My retirement this year resulted in a move from the 53rd floor of a high rise in Chicago to 5 acres in rural Minnesota. As a mechanism to keep me sane during the last year of work, I read a lot about beekeeping, including books and Internet sources including Bee-L. I discovered when I got the actual bees this spring that many of them have not read the same books. I enjoy learning, and beekeeping is rich in opportunities for that. I planned to start with four colonies, two on my property and two about 15 miles away at my in-laws' farm. I won a package as a door prize at the local association meeting, so "now we are five". The bees are teaching me a lot in this first season. In spite of me, they seem to be doing well. The "local association" for me is the MHBA (http:// www.mnbeekeepers.com/) and includes attendees from the U of Minnesota program including Marla Spivak and Gary Reuter. The value of these groups to new beekeepers cannot be emphasized enough. Thanks to all who contribute to Bee-L. Between it and beesource.com, plus the printed rags, there's so much good information available. I hope I can take advantage of it. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:12:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: How Good is Good Enough? In-Reply-To: <002d01c57c2d$136de970$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Allan Said: Going from memory, it seems to me that Steve Tabor tried grafting eggs and found problems with doing so. Allan's memory is good. I think the bee venom might have a role in that!!!!! Yes, honey bees cannibalized a good percentage of grafted eggs by Taber. Therefore, the best option to raise quality queens as suggested by Laidlaw is: 1. graft larvae as young as <12-18 h. 2. use a swarm box as a starter for 24 h to start grafted queen cells 2. Use queen right finisher colony to finish raising the queen cells. 3. The swarm box and queen right finisher should have a lots of young workers and amble amount of pollen or pollen supplement. Thus, the best conditions will be available to raise quality queens. Don't forget to select the queen mother to use her larvae for grafting larvae with desirable genetic traits, eh. Nowadays, there are several variations of this method, but all of them have the same principles. medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:02:29 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: How Good is Good Enough? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allan's memory is good. I think the bee venom might have a role in > that!!!!! > > Yes, honey bees cannibalized a good percentage of grafted eggs by Taber. > > Nowadays, there are several variations of this method, but all of them > have the same principles. and if you can cope with plastic in your beekeeping, you can use the Jenter queen system that is based on eggs witout grafting. Best regards Jorn Johanesson maybe the best and Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. With integrated update facility. Version 8.0.3.0 now translated into 14 languages with more to come. hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk Bidata support forum = http://www.apimo.dk/apimo_forum/ e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:44:44 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: How Good is Good Enough? In-Reply-To: <200506300400.j5U3qk7H020151@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Thus, the best conditions will be available to raise quality queens. Don't >forget to select the queen mother to use her larvae for grafting larvae >with desirable genetic traits, eh. > > I have found difference between hives used as cell builders. Some hives just don't want to make queen cells. Even when there are lots of jelly left in the cell cups after the queens harched out, the queens are smaller than from other hives used at the same time. So I found it important to make sure the hives I use as finishers are doing the job properly. I can have a big queen hatching from a cell with no jelly left, and a small queen from a cell with plenty left. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:50:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: How Good is Good Enough? In-Reply-To: <42C386CC.5070103@algonet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi P-O > I have found difference between hives used as cell builders. Some hives > just don't want to make queen cells. > Even when there are lots of jelly left in the cell cups after the queens > harched out, the queens are smaller than from other hives used at the > same time. I find this interesting... I have wondered about the possibility of strains that use supersedure not being as likely to co-operate in a queen rearing operation. For my part I do select for supercedure deliberately, and I have over a twenty year period reduced the numbers of queencells that I give to a colony to raise, because I noticed that the majority of failures were occurring in the cells at the ends of the bars. But I have not noticed any reduced quality in the queens that have been raised. I think I pay more attention than most to pollen provision and liquid feeding, but that would only be the reason for my success if there was a natural deficit, I like to think I am using 'belt and braces'. I am using strains with high AMM content, what race are you using ? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 5.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:53:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: Get swarm out of a drum? I just got word of a swarm in a whiskey barrel near two of my hives in the country. As described, it sounds to me that what was a 'swarm' is now a 'hive-in-a- drum'. Even so - it's a hive that's a month old or less. Any tips on getting the bees transferred to a hive would be appreciated. tfl. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:18:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: Get swarm out of a drum? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bet their a bunch of happy bees. Russ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:16:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Get swarm out of a drum? In-Reply-To: <200506301753.j5UHYLwV021119@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I just got word of a swarm in a whiskey barrel near > two of my hives in the > country... Does it look kinda like this... http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/naturebee/detail?.dir=/d450&.dnm=722c.jpg&.src=ph I would use bee escape, such as a screen cone, and place a hive with frame of capped brood next to the entrance for the bees that are prevented from entering the drum to go into. Next day or so, maybe shot of bee quick or prolonged use of smoke introduced thru a small hole drilled opposite the entrance might encourage the queen and remainder nurse bees to leave. The whiskey barrel in the picture I have provided may have suffered a melt down, as honey was leaking out the bottom. I'm waiting for the bees to repair the damage before I attempt to remove them. I have permission to cut the top off of this barrel which would likely destroy it. Something about Jack Daniels whiskey stored for four years in White Oak barrels charred on the inside. Makes for excellent swarm lure. ;>) ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. 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