From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:35:57 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EAB84834D for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEFvLG013111 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0508" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 635842 Lines: 14305 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 07:16:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Hummingbird Feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aha! The culprit 'fessed up. allen > I have found out that my husband has been going around and > what he calls "burping" the feeders.....letting a little of the > solution drip out to fill the bottom up more so that the > hummingbirds don't have to go down as deep with their beaks.... > so there is a big leakage....my husband.....thank you all for your > help....I really appreciate it... --- original message --- > > This came in from a lady in Skiatook, North of Tulsa, Oklahoma. Any > > suggestions? > >> > I would love to find out how to get rid of my honey bees so >> > that my humming birds have had their fill. The bees have >> > taken over... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 07:18:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Hummingbird Feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And, this just in -- seconds after I posted the last message... > Thank you so much for the vicks rub (idea)... I will use the > vapor rub to get them away and clean them again really > good....thank you for your suggestions....I really appreciate it.... allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 20:06:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Brood in extracting comb Curious how other beekeepers handle small amounts of brood in extracting comb and what the effect is on honey if large amounts of larvae juices get into the honey. If I encounter frames with brood I handwork around the brood with a uncapping fork instead of running through my uncapper. The brood stays uncapped during extraction and I avoid contaminating my honey. My assumption is that large amounts of larvae juice in a small batch of extracted honey would increase chances of fermentation and off flavor. Would this foregin material also be a potential source of bacteria in raw honey? Especially troubling is the situation where brood and comb sit in a hot room and then not extracted say for 5-10 days after removing from hive. I've seen where the larvae is starting to get ripe in conditions like that. Has anybody seen any research on this topic? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 20:32:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: The process of making honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An intersting question came to me. I had not thought about it. Is there a scientific name for the process by which the honey bee changes nectar into honey? Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:02:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Brood in extracting comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen asked: > Curious how other beekeepers handle small amounts of brood in > extracting comb and what the effect is on honey if large amounts of > larvae juices get into the honey. In the EU honey may only be extracted from broodless combs, so any with brood stay on the hive if noticed when clearing, or those frames are not extracted. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:42:09 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Brood in extracting comb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Curious how other beekeepers handle small amounts of brood in extracting comb... I'd leave those frames over the hive to let the larvae mature and emerge. I use queen-excluders these days and don't have to face this situation. >>...and what the effect is on honey if large amounts of larvae juices get into the honey. I assume you'd filter out the larvae with small wax particles etc. Larvae juices will be negligible. Unless the frames are ~75% and up with brood. >>Especially troubling is the situation where brood and comb sit in a hot room and then not extracted say for 5-10 days after removing from hive. Why not then leave these frames over the hive and let the brood emerge? It seems to me a cruel and wasteful way of treating baby bees. On the other hand, in the tropics of Asia brood is regularly collected and consumed as a protein source with a nutty flavor. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:48:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Brood in extracting comb On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:42:09 GMT, waldig@netzero.com wrote: >I'd leave those frames over the hive to let the larvae mature and emerge. I use queen-excluders these days and don't have to face this situation. > >Why not then leave these frames over the hive and let the brood emerge? It seems to me a cruel and wasteful way of treating baby bees. > We run 280 colonies and when pulling honey there is no real good place to leave 2 or 3 frames that might have a hundred cells of brood at most.. In the event that they turned the super into a brood nest and have a large amount of brood we leave the whole thing on. This situation is more likley on the first removal of honey in June or July then during the late season. I've had poor luck with excluders. Many hives will not put honey up and try and swarm with an exlcuder on. I've done side by side comaprisons in several yards and came to the conclusion they are honey excluders. We check each yard every 2 weeks and I'd rather have some occasional brood comb then no honey. I know many of the large commercial beekeepers send everything through the uncapper with automated deboxers etc. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:14:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Campbell Subject: bees in attic MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Gentlemen, I recieved a call from a neighbor across the lake about some honey bees in his attic. On inspection I found them to be quite buried in the wall and too infected with mites to try to retreive. Anyone have a good method of putting the poor girls out of thier misery, without doing too much damage to the guy's house? Looks like they are from this spring's swarms. Thanks Don Campbell Mohegan Lake NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:49:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Ruzicka Subject: Tested Queens - Vernon Stock John H. Wrote: Hi Bill: What is the Vernon Stock improvement project. I have'nt heard of it. Look forward to your reply......John H The Vernon Stock Improvement project was originated by John Corner I believe in 1980 - 1985. John Gates got his first Apiary job in this project and stayed with it. He can probably give you a much better description of it but as I recall about 30 beekeepers donated 2 - 5 hives (the best we have) from these strains through artificial insemination. In 5 years improved bees for local conditions were created and as part of the project taught anyone (including myself) how to raise queens, graft and the principle of selecting stock and keeping line without inbreeding. During the project we requeened our hives with this stock and at the end the donated hives and stock were turned back over to the beekeepers to keep. To the best of my knowledge I am the last and only one left who kept this stock without knowingly introducing another strain into it. Our breeders go through all hoops of operations including pollination and are sold after graft each year with nuks to Alberta. At the end of May we have 800 - 1000 queen mating units from 3 to 8 frames rearing queens. They have been celled from 20 breeders in even numbers so 50 daughters from each breeder. We start a new selection right then and the hives are marked for good behavior, brood pattern, hygienic behavior, honey production, speed of development and anything we do not like gets killed and the bees are slashed together. The good ones are laying in single boxes with queen excluders and Dadant or with a honey super on until mid August. Around August 14th (this year) 144 singles are put on top of other singles to create wintering colonies. We catch and sell 140 queens. Those are the ones we advertised and we also have some extra 8 frame wintering nuks. We catch those queens and put their bees and brood above the queen excluder, by Labor Day the brood is born and the combs are full of honey. This year (just last week) we have already reduced the nukes to 144 wintering units so we will have only 140 tested queens this year. All of our wintering units are scaled and fed to the proper wintering weight. 125# for 2 high and 64# for 8 frame tops. The initial weight is written on front of the hive. We also record mite levels and check for any diseases. We give another mark for wintering strength, spring development, and stores consumption. In April we select 60 possible breeders, those breeders will get a drone comb to produce our mating drones. At the same time we put in 2 MiteGone formic acid pads. Our drones are reared and born during formic acid treatment and we have had no problems with drone sterility. In mid May by the end of pollination we bring those 60 designated breeders into the main yard and select the final 24 into the breeder circle. All other hives are taken to "Bob yard" where all the nuking and mating is now done. In one day I graft 2000 cells evenly from 20 breeders having 4 spare in case no perfect graft comb can be found. The breeders are made into queen- less starters and in 2 days are queen righted by their own old queens as finishers. I aim for the cells to be around 7 - 8 days old when introduced to the mating units. The cells are retrieved by taking 10 cells from each master in sequence so a maximum of 50 cell daughters from each breeder queen is installed. About 200, 10 from each breeder are caged and left to be emerged in strong banks as caged virgins, the rest of the cells are sold or terminated. At the age of 15 days all cells should be open and the virgins emerged. We go and check all of the mating units. We use JZBZ cell protectors so it is easy to find out if the virgin has emerged. Also in 3 frame units virgins are easily visible and any bad looking, imperfect virgin or cell not emerged is replaced by a perfect caged virgin. So when the mating day and weather comes we have generally 800 - 1000 mating units with virgins of the same age in one gigantic mating yard. 50 daughters of each breeder are mating with drones mostly from 60 selected drone mothers and some extra drones are left over from 280 pollination units, which produced 500 super nuks for Alberta at the same time when mating units were created and cells put in. All this is done in two days. The only thing we do not really care about is the color. I personally like the "mellow yellow". It is actually a light brown but bigger then normal queens. We get yellow, black and anything in between. We call them yellow and black tigers by what yellow or black stripe prevails. I hope I have satisfied your curiosity. The Vernon project taught me a lot but I also added some from my own experience over 30 years. Yours truly, Bill Bill Ruzicka Bill's Honey Farm - Home of the MiteGone Formic Acid Treatment Kelowna British Columbia, CANADA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 22:01:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: bees in attic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I received a call from a neighbor across the lake about some honey bees in > his attic. On inspection I found them to be quite buried in the wall and > too infected with mites to try to retrieve. Anyone have a good method of > putting the poor girls out of their misery, without doing too much damage > to > the guy's house? Looks like they are from this spring's swarms. > > Thanks > > Don Campbell Don - If they are weakened by mites, you will likely need to do nothing. They will die naturally in short order. Next spring... before swarming season... carefully calk any entrance a new swarm might use. If by chance they survive the winter, trap them out in the spring when they have consumed most of the honey. Leaving the honey in the walls is a potential problem and the bees may solve that for you. Besides that, with a smaller spring population the colony would be easier to bait out. Either way you can leave the house in tact. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 12:33:42 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Brood in extracting comb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Brian, >>We run 280 colonies and when pulling honey there is no real good place to leave 2 or 3 frames that might have a hundred cells of brood at most.. You have a nice size operation. I'd save the frames with brood and return them on the hives with the wet, extracted supers then. Put them over a queen excluder though. >>We check each yard every 2 weeks and I'd rather have some occasional brood comb then no honey. I've heard this argument. [I've been pondering using 3 deeps - the unlimited brood nest - and queen excluders.] I've been putting excluders on AFTER the bees start to store honey up in the supers. I think, when it's done this way, they continue storing in the supers well after the excluders are inserted. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:20:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Interesting Link on Anaphylaxis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/331/7512/330?ecoll Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:40:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Hammie Morton Subject: Bee Replocations I'm retired now and considering adding bee relocations from structures to my business. Does anyone have any guidance or literature that I can start the education proces in advance. I have collected swarms but have not relocated from structures. Thanks in Advance. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:33:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "James W. Hock" Subject: Re: bees in attic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/3/2005 8:22:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, donaldmc49@OPTONLINE.NET writes: recieved a call from a neighbor across the lake about some honey bees in his attic. On inspection I found them to be quite buried in the wall and too infected with mites to try to retreive. Anyone have a good method of putting the poor girls out of thier misery, without doing too much damage to the guy's house? Looks like they are from this spring's swarms. For years we used "Ficam D," a dust insecticide used with a bulb duster. It worked wonderfully but has recently lost it EPA registration. We have since switched to "Tri-Die silica & pyrethrum dust," while it knocks down well, it is also a powerful repellent. I find that foragers won't enter the nest cavity. They linger around the area, usually starting a "swarm" panic from the casual observers. Bees and wasp missed are blocked from the entrance, working their way through the walls to appear on the inside of the house. "Deltadust" also works well. The point is, for a complete kill, the dust needs to be injected into the cavity with enough force to cover all the surfaces. I would stay away from "Raid" or the other sprays unless you want to mickey mouse the nozzle by switching it with a WD-40 can. Then you can inject the liquid inside the cavity with the little red tube. Just hosing the outside will not help. Not enough bees will die to make a difference, the foragers will be able to leave, but not easily return. "Raid" and the like are contact killers that dry up quickly, but leave a repellent. If the bees cavity are mostly accessible from the attic, you could drop a couple of flea fogger bombs up there. Check all your labels first. The more important issue is the left over brood, honey, wax and dead bees. This leaves a sticky, putrid mess that will attract other pests and healthy bees. You maybe better off hiring a local beekeeper to help you open up the side of the house and vacuum it all up. Another choice is to leave it alone. If they die, the local bees and wasps might clean it out on their own. Jim Hock Long time Exterminator, short time Beekeeper Wethersfield, CT :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:45:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: Brood in extracting comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Brian Fredericksen" ' I've had poor luck with excluders. > Many hives will not put honey up and try and swarm with an exlcuder > on. I've done side by side comaprisons in several yards and came to > the conclusion they are honey excluders.' If this was universally true , excluders would have dropped out of use long ago. Is the type of excluder the problem? Slotted metal obviously blocks ventilation to some extent ...so bees must have dificulty in evaporating the nectar. But surely framed wire excluders restrict air flow much less ...and are acceptable to bees? Robin Dartington :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 10:39:57 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erwan Cassard Subject: Re: Hot weather grafting In-Reply-To: <200507271940.j6RJYkaS009401@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi from France Bill, here we give water in the feeder with (i don't know the name) the "stuff" to clean your home table in. Erwan Le 27 juil. 05, à 21:40, Bill Lord a écrit : > Hello from HOT North Carolina (102 F today). Does anyone have any tips > for getting grafts accepted and cells built in hot weather? My > precentages go way down once it gets hot. We have pollen coming in and > drones present. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:17:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Hot weather grafting In-Reply-To: <1bcd79a4c4e6214052d9152d5dcc7202@tiscali.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Erwan > here we give water in the feeder with (i don't > know the name) the "stuff" to clean your home table in. Can you please give the information from the packet for this 'stuff' ?? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 6.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 09:43:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: video In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed all not long ago someone posted a link to a beekeeping video. it lasted about 30 minutes and showed queen rearing, and hive manipulation. thank you. david :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:16:43 +0200 Reply-To: jorn_johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: Re: video In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://apimo.dk/bee_videos.htm which will guide you to a lot of beekeeping vidios in english and german. > not long ago someone posted a link to a beekeeping video. > it lasted about 30 minutes and showed queen rearing, and hive > manipulation. Best regards Jorn Johanesson maybe the best and Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. With integrated update facility. Version 8.0.3.0 now translated into 14 languages with more to come. hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk Bidata support forum = http://www.apimo.dk/apimo_forum/ e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 22:53:43 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erwan Cassard Subject: Re: Hot weather grafting In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dave, it's "sponge", you can put it in the beehive. Here, 89°F, and it's quite good. I just give some syrup (and pollen) when i'm grafting (all 3 days), so, the others days i give water in the top feeder, . Good luke. Erwan > > Can you please give the information from the packet for this 'stuff' ?? > > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:57:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Brood in extracting comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM to the = BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edityed to remove quotes of previously = posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=3D70016A35) (61 lines) = ------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:16:24 -0400 From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Brood in extracting comb To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > But surely framed wire excluders restrict air flow much less ...and >are acceptable to bees? >Robin Dartington > I agree there are differences. I found the plastic molded excluders to be the worst as far as bees accepting their presence. I see there are some plastic stamped versions available now that claim to be improved. With 100's of colonies in multiple locations I feel I have enough data to come to some sound conclusions. Also I'm not aware of any beekeepers in the Upper Midwest in a commercial or large sideline operation who use them. I've had better luck staying with new world carnolians then italians when it comes to brood laying in extracting supers. If you put the supers on too early before the first major flow the Italians will be much more likley to go up and lay brood in the supers at least in the lines I evaluated. As far as items in wide use in beekeeping and their perceived benefits goes (especially mite control), one would not have to look too far in = the Bee Journal ads to find some interesting items. In fact the list is growing every year. We have small cell foundation, mineral oil foggers, vinegar evaporators, "secret" essential oils and a host of many other ingeneous inventions. So I guess I never relied much on what the other guys are doing and go with my own observations and data and published scientific literature . Brian Fredericksen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:53:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Mite control methods In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092110C580@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron Morris wrote: > Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:16:24 -0400 > From: Brian Fredericksen > Subject: Re: Brood in extracting comb > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > As far as items in wide use in beekeeping and their perceived benefits goes (especially mite control), one would not have to look too far in the Bee Journal ads to find some interesting items. In fact the list is growing every year. We have small cell foundation, mineral oil foggers, vinegar evaporators, "secret" essential oils and a host of many other ingeneous inventions. > Brian Fredericksen Last year at the fall state meeting in Alabama a representative from some company was touting a disk of bacillis something-or-other that was supposed to control varroa by attacking the chiton of the bug. Has anyone heard any more about this? Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 21:26:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Brood in extracting comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian said: Also I'm not aware of any beekeepers in the Upper Midwest in a commercial or large sideline operation who use them. All the commercial beekeepers I know use queen excluders. Brood in supers causes many problems. Emerging brood in the honey house causes problems keeping help. Queens are lost when supers are pulled with brood. Brood in super comb causes dark comb that is attractive to wax moths & small hive beetle. Some beekeepers say brood comb darkens honey but I am not totally convinced. Queen excluders being honey excluders is a farce! Line a window to your honey house with an excluder and see how fast the bees enter. Granted in some areas on certain flows excluders can be pulled but most larger operators have not got time for such things. Brian said: So I guess I never relied much on what the other guys are doing and go with my own observations and data and published scientific literature . Have you tried any of the methods you speak of? I have experience with each you talked of.. The BEE-L archives are full of information on each method you said. Use my name and the method for a search. Actually easier than hashing over old information. I agree some are a complete waste of time but some have produced some results. All beekeeping is local. What works in my area and flows may not work in your area. What method of mite control do you use and recommend? For how long? Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:35:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Mite control methods Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mike, not sure but this might be what you're talking about: http://www.beesource.com/news/article/fungus.htm George- At 06:53 PM 8/7/05 -0700, you wrote: >Last year at the fall state meeting in Alabama a >representative from some company was touting a disk of >bacillis something-or-other that was supposed to >control varroa by attacking the chiton of the bug. >Has anyone heard any more about this? Mike > --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary Whitefield Maine http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:34:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Brood rearing before the golden rod flow. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have a question about the reported brood rearing shutdown or reduction with the NWC and Russian bees during periods of nectar flow drop-off. In lower New York state, the spring/early summer flow is over by the 2nd week in July and golden rod does not start to bloom en-mass until the 2nd week in August. Would NWC and Russian bees need a little stimulation during these 4 weeks to keep raising brood in order to have strong populations for the golden rod flow? Most of my queens are Italian crosses and they seem to slow down their brood rearing only slightly but I have been pondering changing over to a good Russian stock (like Purvis Brothers' Blue Line). Anybody know? Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:57:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juan Carlos =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fern=E1ndez?= Campos Subject: Need help contacting ... In-Reply-To: <000e01c5978e$11827640$6401a8c0@upstairs> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi people, After some time of hard work, i went on vacations, (I use a Pc from my job to mail everyone), so, I´m back, but the computer was broken (It´s hard disk), naturaly, all info in there is destroyed, including my address book. I would like to contact some friends, Malcolm Conell, Abbas, and if someone of you or them are reading this please contact me if have some info about their addresses. Juan Carlos Fernandez Camaguey. Cuba. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:43:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Beekeepers Still Face an Uncertain Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: http://www.wvagriculture.org/market_bulletin/Past MB article web pages/PDF articles for web pages/MB 2005/8-05 MB- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:10:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Brood rearing before the golden rod flow. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Would NWC and Russian bees need a little stimulation during these 4 weeks to keep raising brood in order to have strong populations for the golden rod flow? Most bees would . supers of honey on has nothing to do with stimulation. Pull supers and feed a thin syrup to stimulate. Stop a couple weeks before the flow. A half gallon or a gallon should do the job. > Most of my queens are Italian crosses and they seem to slow down their brood rearing only slightly but I have been pondering changing over to a good Russian stock (like Purvis Brothers' Blue Line). I have had good luck with both Purvis Brothers lines. The Blue line is typical Russian and needs management such as talked about above. We are in a severe drought in Missouri. I have been extracting since first of July and soon will be halfway done. Hard to judge honey production under those conditions but my guess is the Russian Blue line produced in excess of 100 pound average in most locations. The Gold line did a super better in the same area. The flow started two weeks early and my bees were ready and supered. Other beekeepers not prepared are are reporting smaller yields. We had almost no sweet clover this year. The honey was mainly white Dutch and has a flavor similar to honey produced north of us in Iowa. We usually get the big sweet clover flows and Iowa gets the white Dutch flows. Not this year in our area. Our clover flow has been over for about a month. I have not needed to mow my yard in a month. Burned brown. Feeding hay to the livestock. Hay prices starting to climb and getting hard to find. I went yesterday to check fall locations. Will soon start moving hives onto east wildflower locations and two south sunflower locations. All Russians will go. They will winter like Italians going into winter with plenty of stores by doing so. I will have to pull frames of honey/pollen in spring to get the Russians going (or at least I had to last spring) . Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:33:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Brood in extracting comb > >What method of mite control do you use and recommend? For how long? > >Sincerely, >Bob Harrison > I believe taking data and understanding the mite load is more important then the actual method of control. If you can't describe or understand the problem how can you effectively provide a solution? Why through Checkmite year after year at a yard with a low mite count? I also run a medium sized apple orchard and IPM methods are old news in that circle. We rarely apply any chems without spore counts (scab) or insect trap data. Using sticky boards and ether rolls I treat each yard seperately. Some years I do not need to treat at all. (All my hives are wintered here in central and southern Mn). Overall I would say 1 out 3 years I have been able to not treat at all. Some yards appear to be consistently low in mite count and I can go 2 years, seems weather related too. I used apistan when I can and have occaisionly used checkmite with high counts and wanting a rotation with apistan. This season we have very low mite counts and I will use formic acid or apivar in the few yards with higher counts I'd like to move into the russian line of bees . We run new world canriolan's predominately and have some bee-weaver allstars too. I much favor the carniolan for our norhern climate and they have provided better honey production too. Plus as I mentioned the Italians seem much more prone to lay drone and worker brood in extracting supers. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:41:02 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Gold & Blue lines. [Brood rearing before the golden rod flow.] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bob, >>...the Russian Blue line produced in excess of 100 pound average in most locations. The Gold line did a super better in the same area. Do you attribute this to the genetics of the Gold line? Or was the management any different? >>All Russians ... will winter like Italians going into winter with plenty of stores by doing so. I will have to pull frames of honey/pollen in spring to get the Russians going (or at least I had to last spring) Given equal stores going into the winter, do you find that the Blue line needs extra in the spring to get going? Based on your experience, it sounds like the Gold line is better overall than the Blue line, Bob? Thanks, Waldemar :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:28:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: optimizing use of natural swarm cells I'm looking for advice, thoughts, and suggestions on how to optimize the use of natural swarm cells. I've had some degree of success with grafting and other methods, but I'm not at all convinced that the trouble is worth the effort in my case, and I suspect that my lack of expertise and the compromises I make doing things independently on a small scale (like grafting dry from larvae that *look* like the right age into homemade cups that might be the right size) are yielding inferior results. I'm also inclined to think that the best quality queen is going to come from a cell raised naturally under optimal conditions, not from a process managed by an incompetent ignoramus like me. So my thought is, why not crowd my breeder hives during swarm season, encourage them to swarm, and then use the natural swarm cells. But the devil is in the details. I'm not concerned about leading them to swarm; I figure a strong, highly congested hive is going to raise cells. (And if I pick the hives that I want to make swarm, I figure I wouldn't especially be selecting for swarm-inclined stock.) The questions have to do with getting them to raise swarm cells but not actually swarming. Should I, for instance, six days after "congesting" the hive add back a second brood chamber and trap the queen in it above an excluder? How many days from the time they start raising cells can I bet on them not swarming? Should I transfer the cells as soon as they're capped to above an excluder on a queenless hive? Or should I transfer the cells directly to my 4-way mating nucs and set the mating nucs above a double screen board on the breeder colonies? Thanks to you all, Eric Brown Wilkes Co., NC :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:18:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard A Cartwright Subject: Minimizing bee-beards In-Reply-To: <200508111428.j7BDvY95029425@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I'm preparing to move a few hives to a late summer goldenrod flow, but am faced with the problem of getting 'bee beards' back into the hives before the move. Here on Long Island, N.Y., daytime temps have been in the mid to upper 80's and evenings are about 70 degrees and humid. Even in pre-dawn hours my strong hives have huge numbers of bees on the front, covering at least the bottom deep. I have added empty supers on top in hopes of providing extra room for the bees but it doesn't seem to help. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated! Dick Cartwright :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:13:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Patrick Subject: Re: Minimizing bee-beards In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard A Cartwright wrote: >I'm faced with the problem of getting 'bee beards' back into the hives > > > Are you using screened bottom boards, and propping up the cover to maximize ventilation? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:11:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: 4-way mini-nucs I was wondering, what are the relative advantages of 4-way mini-nucs divided into four corners versus four parallel sections. Obviously, the four parallel sections would allow for standard frames, but I've seen and heard of a lot of the four corners kind. Eric Brown :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:23:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "subscribe bee-l David M." Subject: Re: Minimizing bee-beards By placing an open screened bottom board, a.k.a. an open mesh floor and a screened top (a window screen splined into a standard window screen frame available at any home store) in place of the usual inner cover, with the outer cover propped up the ventilation will bring them in quickly. I experienced the same thing when I ran out of sbb's and had to use a standard floor for a short time this summer. When I switched the solid floor out for a sbb, in they went. In the Pacific Northwest we have experienced the same temperatures as you have for most of July. Additionally, you won't need a front screen to close them in, simply nail a piece of wood across the front, the bees will have plenty of ventilation as long as you keep them on a pallet or other boards to keep them directly off the ground or trailer deck. Replacing your inner cover for a mesh screen will greatly add ventilation and allow the bees to dry out the nectar a lot faster, increasing honey yields. Common sense really, try to evaporate 10-20 gallons of water in a small room with only a few small openings and you'll see how important it is to maximize ventilation. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:40:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard A Cartwright Subject: Re: Minimizing bee beards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Richard A Cartwright wrote: >I'm faced with the problem of getting 'bee beards' back into the hives > > > Are you using screened bottom boards, and propping up the cover to maximize ventilation? I have screened bottom boards on top of regular bottom boards (I think that creates about a 1-inch gap for ventilation). Maybe getting rid of the wood bottom board would help. I also experimented with a screened top (with no telescoping cover) on one hive.There was no difference in the number of bees out front by 11:00 PM the night before the move, so I replaced the telescoping cover for fear of overnight rain. On approaching the hives at 4:15 AM, I first sprayed the bees with a light sugar solution to aid in gently scraping them off and dumping them into a cardboard funnel designed to fit into an old 3-pound screened package container. A neighbor's floodlight (suburbia) coaxed the disturbed bees into the air and I got stung a couple of times. I then tried smoke to get the bees back inside the hive, but now the sugar solution on the hive front kept them outside. I eventually decided to cut my losses and brush the remaining few hundred bees off onto the ground so that I could staple a screen over the entrance. However, as quickly as I could sweep them away, new bees came out to replace them. I gave up at 5:30 AM. Maybe I should try smoking them FIRST as one subscriber mentioned. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:22:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: Minimizing bee-beards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use screen bottom boards and an empty 4-6 inch tall box about the size of a shallow super drilled with screened ventilation holes above the inner covers to keep out beetles and moths. Have never experienced bee beards and the summer temperature in Atlanta, GA frequently reaches between 90-100 F with very high humidity. Spraying the bees lightly with water will usually put any bees on the entrance back in the hive for moving purposes. I have several hives with very large populations ( 1 produced in excess of 200 lb) and the empty box above really does a good job of ventilating excess moisture during spring buildup with hi/low temps and moderates the hive temp in 90+ F summer heat. If empty box is overrun with bees during nectar flow, usually means more supers are needed. Jerry Wallace Atlanta, GA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:01:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Minimizing bee-beards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two suggestions: Wide entrances - reduced entrances cause bees to hang outside. Drift smoke across them (gently!) before doing anything else. I check the apiary and smoke any with bees outside first, then shut in the rest, then come back to the problem ones. Usually they are all inside by then. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:54:13 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Buckwheat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A small farm up the road where I have two beehives planted buckwheat this spring at my request. I have had customers asking for dark honey and felt that the late July bloom would fill in a dearth in our area. The field was in full bloom with white flowers and not a bee to be found on them anywhere. When I mentioned this to a fellow beekeeper, he said that it had to be a particular type of buckwheat, i.e., Japanese. I'm at a loss for why the bees didn't work the buckwheat, when there really wasn't anything else blooming. Anyone out there have any answers for me? I'm located in Morris County, NJ (north central in the state). Janet A. Katz janet.katz@earthlink.net :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:49:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: New product MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, A new fake honey product has been seen on Kansas City area store shelves. The label reads: Purity LIGHT BLEND HONEY Under the word Purity in print so small you can barely reads is the word "foods" Under the word honey in the same small print is: "blend of honey & corn syrup" I have got a tote full of 55% fructose in the building. I took a sample. I had my wife mix the samples up and let me taste both and see if I or a helper could pick the Purity sample. We could not both taste alike. Under ingredients: First: corn syrup second: High fructose corn syrup third: honey (without the word "Pure Honey") The label is designed on purpose to give the impression the bottle contains "Pure Honey" The bottle I bought was 8 ounce and retailed for one dollar. The standard store markup is 25 to 28%. Purity foods must have sold to the store the 8 ounce bear at around .72 to .75 cents. The rectangular front 8 oz. clear bear sells in a 1000 lot with snap caps from Drapers at .34 cents each. 1.00 U.S. - .25 ------ .75 -.34 ----- .41 -.03 for front & back label ---- .38 for half pound of honey .76 for a pound. Would be hard to make money if the product was honey but you could make a killing if the product was fructose that sells in bulk in the 12 to 14 cents a pound range. The maker of the product is trying to conceal their identity from beekeepers that watch these things I believe. On the back of the bear: Distributed by (not packed by): Purity Foods Clayton,OH.45322 Also a nutrician information number (509)765-8818)that I plan to call tomorrow along with the National Honey Board to report the product! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:19:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Gold & Blue lines. [Brood rearing before the golden rod flow.] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit .".the Russian Blue line produced in excess of 100 pound average in most locations. The Gold line did a super better in the same area." >Do you attribute this to the genetics of the Gold line? The gold line is based on Italian stock and the gold line has been selected for honey production for quite a few years and the Russian has not.. >Or was the management any different? Spring management was the same. >Given equal stores going into the winter, do you find that the Blue line needs extra in the spring to get going? All the Russian/Russian and the Russian hybrids I have used winter good and use less stores. They also do not respond to pollen patties as well as other lines and do not want to build until fresh pollen is coming in which is not a problem for me as we get Maple /henbit pollen usually in mid March long before dandelions. Many times we get willows before dandelions. Based on your experience, it sounds like the Gold line is better overall than the Blue line, Bob? You really can't compare a thoroughbred (bred for racing) horse to a nag imported from the fields of Russia to use horses as an example. The lines that makeup the Purvis gold line bee are impressive. Due to a non-discloser agreement I signed with Dan Purvis and a retired USDA researcher (wants to remain unnamed) I can not disclose the queens involved. The Russian bee needs a decade of selctive breeding to produce the bee I would like to see but could easily be done! Selecting for honey production among your Russian hives is not rocket science! I like the Russian queen / NWC drone cross and the Blue line Purvis Russian queen / Gold line drone cross. If done correctly you can pick up a 30% hybrid vigor with the above Russian hybrids BUT you need to raise and mate new queens when you requeen to keep up the hybrid vigor . The key is the breeder queen you choose and the drone source. Use a NWC queen and Russian drone stock and the bee changes (or at least has for me). The hybrid vigor should continue. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:17:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: 4-way mini-nucs In-Reply-To: <200508111811.j7BI6MtE014214@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Eric > I was wondering, what are the relative advantages of 4-way mini-nucs > divided into four corners versus four parallel sections. The answer to this lies in the prevailing weather in your region and in what you wish to do with the nucs. The four parallel version can use standard frames, but thermal regulation can become a problem. The four corners way needs half sized frames. The differences may not be very large if all four sections are always occupied, I favour the four x half frame, baby nucs myself, but I do already have half frames in other types of nuc, so they are readily available. The four corners way winters better if wintering nucs is part of your plan. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 6.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:01:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: 4-way mini-nucs In-Reply-To: <200508111811.j7BI6MtE014214@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-44532E91 > I was wondering, what are the relative advantages of 4-way mini-nucs >divided into four corners versus four parallel sections. >Eric Brown Small combs. I think it easier to find the mated queens on little half sized combs. It doesn't take much to get them started, and once you do, you can overwinter them. Before cell rearing the next year, they can be broken up into numerous mini-nucs using the bees and brood, and giving the queens to colonies that need to be requeened. But, your parallel sections take full sized combs, which you already have in your operation. Being interchangeable does have it's merits. Having done it both ways, I prefer the 4 way mating nucs. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.10.7/70 - Release Date: 8/11/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 05:00:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: New product In-Reply-To: <001901c59ee8$769f9ba0$10bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Best of luck trying to fight this trend! Along the same lines, I found "Sugar Free Imitation Honey" made by "HoneyTree." The product ingredient list includes maltitol syrup, natural and artificial flavors, acesulfame K, maltic acid. It is packed by Honeytree, Inc., Onsted, MI. I bought a jar at the large, Arkansas-based retailing giant during one of my "price checking" runs. The 12-ounce jar was under $2.00, if memory serves me right. Ironically, one tablespoon contains 50 calories. Real honey contains 60 calories. So what's the real benefit? It ain't taste! I'd like to see very strict limitations on what can pass for "honey." Grant Jackson, MO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:18:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Re: Minimizing bee beards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I learned something from Richard's dilemna...don't spray with sugar water when you want bees to move! Richard, the advice you received was correct but I think you didn't give it long enough to work. I have never had any trouble eliminating bee beards by: 1. Nailing a screen cover on top. 2. Adding a spacer if it is desired to put a metal cover over the screen cover. 3. Waiting 24 hours. The bees can be 'moved' by smoking them, but why bother? It is slow, and they don't much like it. When the ventilation inside their brood area is sufficient they will move themselves. It has never taken my bees more than 24 hours to do so. If you want, you can leave the metal cover off. Rain, even a thunderstorm, will not hurt the bees or the brood. Good luck, -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:30:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Buckwheat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One of the most common beekeeper fables is that the new Japanese varieties of buckwheat (larger seed size) do not yield nectar. Think about it...if they do not yield nectar, how are the pollinators attracted and the seeds formed? No, they are not self-pollinators. I went to Cornell, who has buckwheat specialists, with the question of why some fields of buckwheat are ignored by honey bees. It appears that the answer is that the 'new' Japanese varieties are allowing buckwheat to be grown in conditions and at times of year when the heirloom varieties cannot be grown. At these 'other' times of year, the buckwheat blossoms cannot compete with other blooming plants. For example, right now here in upstate NY the loosestrife is in full bloom, and is full of bees, and I know of adjacent fields of buckwheat, also in full bloom, being ignored by bees! In comparison with loosestrife, the buckwheat nectar cuts off at noon, and there are far fewer blooms. It is being ignored by honeybees, but is full of solitary bees. The heirloom varieties of buckwheat will not grow on soil that will support loosestrife...it is too wet. If you can find buckwheat being grown under conditions with cool nights and moderately dry soil, with relatively little other bloom to compete with, the bees will work it like mad. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:48:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Re: [WL] Re: [BEE-L] New product MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We recently attended the EAS '05 conference in Ohio. http://www.easternapiculture.org/ In the unverisity cafeteria we noticed squeeze pacts of Honey Sauce. The ingredients listed, in order, were: honey, high fructose corn syrup, = sugar, corn syrup, natural colour, carmel colour. These were = manufactured by PPI Portion Pac, Inc., Mason, OH 45040. I wonder how = much honey was used? Is it like chicken soup, with the chicken being = passed over the pot?? :-) However, when leaving the serving and entering the dining area, dishes = of honey were available!!! FYI :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:45:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Buckwheat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >he said that it had to be a particular type of buckwheat, i.e., Japanese. I had not heard the bees would only work one Varity but have little experience with Buckwheat (a few bags at my wildflower location) although quite a bit of experience with Heartsease (same family). Possible answers: My guess the weather, humidity and soil conditions played a roll. To get bees to focus on a new plant they need to be moved in when the plant is in full bloom. If not bees continue to work what the have been working. If you keep your bees in two deeps the Buckwheat honey might have produced and the honey went into your deep boxes instead of your supers. Were your hives at peak strength? Are mites and disease a problem? Are they queenright? You must remember that you will not usually see a bee on a bloom unless the nectar is flowing or they need pollen. You need to check many times a day to be sure the bees are not working the Buckwheat. Buckwheat is very dependable I have been told as is heartsease. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:48:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: New product MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Along the same lines, I found "Sugar Free Imitation Honey" made by "HoneyTree." I have got to live with imitation honey when clearly labeled! Exactly like the real Maple syrup people did when imitation Maple syrup came on the scene. Look what imitation Maple syrup did to their business!. The Purity product is CLEARLY NOT a "light blend honey!" Corn syrup is NOT honey! Fill the bear with corn syrup bring out an eyedropper and add one drop of honey and you can add the word honey to the label under current U.S law. While many beekeepers see foreign honey as the biggest U.S. problem . I see this corn syrup /honey as big a threat. Foreign Maple syrup did not kill the U.S. maple syrup market ! We need to force the word IMITATION HONEY on each bear and the largest print on the bear! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:56:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: [WL] Re: [BEE-L] New product MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My understanding is the primary ingredient is listed first. In your case was honey. Packets of "honey sauce" have been around a long time. Burger King was one of the first to use the honey sauce packets. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:25:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Patrick Subject: Re: Buckwheat In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janet A. Katz wrote: >I'm at a loss for why the bees >didn't work the buckwheat, when there really wasn't anything else blooming. > > I planted Buckwheat last year and the bees worked it and made dark honey. This year I have the exact same Buckwheat growing in the same field and the bees are ignoring it and making green loosestrife honey. The reason may be that this year is hotter and much drier, and the loosestrife is growing in lowlands where it still has moisture. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:24:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Buckwheat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have grown Buckwheat for my bees for over a decade. Yes, I often noticed the bees were not working the Buckwheat and soon noticed that the bees were angrier than usual. Well, an old timer told me that Buckwheat does not produce nectar in the afternoon. True enough this seemed to be the case for me. No Putting it all together I think it is likely that bees will shift to other flowers in the afternoon and stay with them rather than have to keep hunting for new sources after the buckwheat's half day production is over. Has anyone else noticed this half day production? It is hard to notice or prove (for my non-scientific observations anyhow), since the bees will keep on hunting for nectar in the buckwheat for a long time after I believe they are not finding any for they seem to be getting irate. Like a rainy day causes. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:48:25 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland & Dorothy Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: Buckwheat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quite true, in my experience. I planted about a half acre once jut out of curiosity, and would go visit it as soon as I got home from work in the afternoon. Nothing! I, too, thought they wern't working it. Came Saturday moring, what a difference! The plot practically hummed like a big engine. But around noon, everything died down again. I didn't have a large enough plot to show up much in the super, though. Leland, Central OH > >In comparison with loosestrife, the buckwheat nectar cuts off at noon, > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:51:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Request for equipment In-Reply-To: <12e.63e0bc09.302e5f70@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Got a friend who is looking for some used equipment as he expands. He's looking for an 18 to 20 frame motorized extractor, at least a 100 gal stainless steel storage tank. and a stainless uncapping tank with stand. Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama, USA ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:36:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: 4-way mini-nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric asks: I was wondering, what are the relative advantages of 4-way mini-nucs divided into four corners versus four parallel sections. Queen *producers* use these and queen breeders use the full size frames. Queen producers stick a cell in the mini nuc and a cup of bees a thousand nucs or so at a time. Not much of an investment if the queen does not take. Come back and if they see one egg in the cage she goes. Too small for the serious queen breeder in my opinion. I use the full depth frame. you can mate several queens (over a period of time)on a single frame of brood/pollen & honey. Steal the frames brood/pollen from your production hives. No pollen patties or feeding needed. The stronger mating nuc has advantages in my opinion. Also room to evaluate a new queen. Also room to store her for a couple weeks if need be. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:09:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Re: Buckwheat In-Reply-To: <12e.63e0bc09.302e5f70@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Aug 12, 2005, at 1:24 PM, George Fielder asked: > Has anyone else noticed this half day production? It is hard to > notice or > prove (for my non-scientific observations anyhow), since the bees will > keep on > hunting for nectar in the buckwheat for a long time after I believe > they are > not finding any for they seem to be getting irate. Like a rainy day > causes. Yes, in our (now 18 year study) on Santa Cruz Island, honey bees always ceased visiting Santa Cruz Island buckwheat at midday. The native bees continued to visit the plant from thereon. We suspected the difference between the bees to be due to a difference in tongue length. European honey bees would not have co-evolved with island buckwheat. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* * "...the intensity of the conviction that a hypothesis is true has * no bearing on whether it is true or not." * * Peter Medawar (1979) ******************************************************************* :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:03:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Request for equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike and All, Used equipment can sometimes be a disaster looking for a place to happen. However, I have a SS 100 gallon tank in like new condition with lid and stand. Most times a tank will not present a problem since you almost never feed bees honey from a storage tank that could have contained foul brood spores. Lionel Evans smoothevan@aol.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:42:04 -0400 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Buckwheat Comments: To: "Janet A. Katz" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The bees are always working something when available, therefore something better or bigger must be drawing their attention. There are three primary factors in forage selection; 1) sweetness of crop (sugar content) 2) abundance of crop 3) distinctiveness of crop (color and smell of flower) if all other factors are equal, the one of those 3 selection factors that outshines the others will win. So you have something else in their forage range which has been selected over the buckwheat, either because the raw nectar is sweeter, there is more available, or the color of the flower is more striking to the bees' eyes and so was selected instead. Bees don't really "choose" a crop, but the bees go through a set of processes which reinforces selection of the best crops based on quantity (abundance), quality (sugar content), and ease of finding (color and odor). If there is a huge crop of really good nectar bearing black flowers but the flower is odorless, and a smaller crop of white/ultraviolet flowers with lots of odor, but poor nectar yields, the white flower stands a good chance of being selected because of how the bees make their selection. Why? Well to keep it simple, the poorer white/ultraviolet flower are screaming "PICK ME, PICK ME!" and leave a heavy recognizable scent for the bees to follow, while the black flowers metaphorically hide their treasure. If the same ultraviolet flowers weren't present the black flowers may very well make the cut. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/ http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ -----Original Message----- >From: "Janet A. Katz" >Sent: 8/12/05 7:03:27 AM >To: "BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu" >Subject: [BEE-L] Buckwheat > >A small farm up the road where I have two beehives planted buckwheat this >spring at my request. I have had customers asking for dark honey and felt >that the late July bloom would fill in a dearth in our area. The field was >in full bloom with white flowers and not a bee to be found on them anywhere. >When I mentioned this to a fellow beekeeper, he said that it had to be a >particular type of buckwheat, i.e., Japanese. I'm at a loss for why the bees >didn't work the buckwheat, when there really wasn't anything else blooming. >Anyone out there have any answers for me? I'm located in Morris County, NJ >(north central in the state). > >Janet A. Katz >janet.katz@earthlink.net > >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:20:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Buckwheat- nectar production In-Reply-To: <12e.63e0bc09.302e5f70@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was taught, a long time ago, that plants produce nectar at specific times and do shut off. I have noticed it in my own garden, where bees will visit plants at specific times of the day, and not at others. I did a quick search and nectar secretion by plants is all over the board as far as time, amount and concentration of sugars. So a plant like buckwheat shutting down production (plants do adsorb their excess nectar) is genetic and has to do with a variety of good, survival reasons. There is a good writeup on nectar production in the Hive and the Honey Bee. 'Taint simple. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:16:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Where do bees forage? (Was Buckwheat) Comments: To: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scot Mc Pherson wrote: "There are three primary factors in forage selection; 1) sweetness of crop (sugar content) 2) abundance of crop 3) distinctiveness of crop (color and smell of flower)..." Actually, the determining factor on where honey bees forage is the = concept of maximizing return on investment. If there is an abundance of = high sucrose/fructose content in a floral source, it is of appeal to the = bees. If there is a "lesser" source, it will be of lesser appeal. = However, if the "lesser" sourse is closer to home than the richer = source, the bees may forsake the richer source. What determines the = decision is the net return back at the hive. Hereafter, the untis are = totally made up. I am assigning a totally arbitrary value of 10 to the = richer source, and a totally arbitrary value of 4 to the lesser source. = In this example, I am placing the richer source far enough from the hive = that it takes a honey bee 4 of my made up arbitrary valued units to fly = there, and 4 of my made up arbitrary valued units to fly back. Net = result of the rich floral source at the hive is 2 arbitrary units. Now, = the lesser source is close to homw. It takes a half of my made up = arbitrary valued units to fly there, and a half of my made up arbitrary = valued units to fly back. Net result of the lesser floral source at the = hive is 3 arbitrary units. The lesser source yields more at the hive = than the richer source, hence the bees will forage the lesser source. Aaron Morris - wondering how the bees know? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:08:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Apistan after 4 years For four years now I have been getting good results from Check-mite, although the last time I applied the mites came back sooner. Before that, my last application of Apistan had almost no effect on the mites. I found out that the guy who I'd bought the majority of my hives from left the Apistan strips in all year and scraped them with the hive tool when he visited the hives. Does anyone have any experience, or even an educated guess as to whether 4 years without Apistan would have selected for mites that would now be susceptible to Apistan? I'd like to give Check-mite a break this year. Thanks and regards to the list Tim Vaughan :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 07:34:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Buckwheat In-Reply-To: <000101c59fb9$035b2c00$71fbf704@workstation> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Scot Mc Pherson wrote: > > There are three primary factors in forage selection; > 1) sweetness of crop (sugar content) > 2) abundance of crop > 3) distinctiveness of crop (color and smell of > flower This finding by Seeley, suggests bees may not always factor distance or profitability into the forage decisions. "...If for instance the hive as a whole had a current low nectar inflow rate, a highly profitable source is desirable. Conversely, if the current inflow rate of nectar is high, a highly profitable source may not be required or even desirable for the hive because the hive must maintain a regulated nectar inflow rate." Best Wishes, Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:02:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Where do bees forage? (Was Buckwheat) In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092110C5AE@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: >Actually, the determining factor on where honey bees forage is the concept of maximizing return on investment. > Amen. It is interesting that the flowering plants also program for that in a variety of ways, including maximizing the nectar available in different flowers over a period of time so even though some may have little nectar, the other have lots and keep the bees coming. The plant may also vary the flow by shutting down for a week or more and then have a second major flow.And, as noted, they might have a period during the day when they have max flow. They have many different stratagems. It is an interesting dance between the plant and pollinator. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:21:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Fall treatment with oxalic acid In-Reply-To: <003201c580cc$0a63e610$067be404@ecapital83wvji> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Over the past many years, I usually find a few Varroa in drone cells. This August found none. Last year, because of my health problems, I had let my bees fend for themselves, so that last fall, when I had help from Tony Jadczak, I applied the OA drip method. I had four colonies and all had heavy Varroa. One was so far gone that it died just after the treatment. Tony was not sure if the others would make it through the winter, much less the fall. The other three came thought the winter fine and, as noted, appear to be Varroa free even now. All had a nice surplus and are loaded with bees. There was another local beekeeper who used Oxalic under more controlled conditions to see if it was effective and the results were the same. It works. OA is cheap, simple to use, and effective so I can understand why it is used in Europe. It would be nice to see it registered in the US and Canada. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:09:10 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Buckwheat MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I believe what you are observing to be the time of day the buckwheat flower releases its nectar. Some years ago I then had my hands on a report from an Agriculture Dept somewhere in Russia, with much detail around this topic. There was said to be a wide variation in the varieties of Buckwheat, as well EDW > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:39:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Fall treatment with oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regarding the OA drip method, Bill Truesdell wrote, " It would be nice = to see it registered in the US and Canada." =20 OA IS registered in Canada, late June or early July this year. There = was a lot of news at EAS two weeks ago. I suspect OA will usurp Formic = very quickly if/when registered in the US (and probably even if not). = ABF is pushing for EPA approval based on Canadian research. I was = pushing ABF to adopt such a stance in Jacksonville based on European = reasearch. Problem is, EPA registeres a product, not a treatment. = Hence Formic Acid Pads from NOD Industries finally got EPA approval, = whereas formic acid treatment is still not sanctioned. Use of the NOD = product is approved, formic acid is not. An OA product may get = approved, but I'm doubtful OA approval will come to the states quickly. =20 Aaron Morris - hoping I'm wrong. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 00:34:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Buckwheat Here in Minnestoa I've noticed Buckwheat does not produce honey reliably on heavy black soil. The same variety of seed in a sandy loam though with good weather usually produces an August and early Sept crop. Migratory and other beekeepers produce a fair amount in this state as we have an active Buckwheat Growers Association in NW Mn and the southern region has a lot fof organic growers who plant it as a green manure. The honey sells at a premium here. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 00:46:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Apistan after 4 years Take a mite count doing an ether or sugar roll and determine the level of mites you have in a hive or hives. Then install a sticky board and 1 or 2 apistan strips and after 24-48 hours see what kind of drop you get with the Apistan. Repeating this with other types of treatments will give you some insight to if you have resistant mites. Resistance is real and rotation of miticides is a good approach. Formic Acid and Thymol are now approved in the US and are good soft alternatives that mites will not become resistant to. IMO Checkmite should be reserved for severe problems and only used as a last resort. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 07:50:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Apistan after 4 years Comments: To: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by komppa-seppala@CO.INET.FI to = the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of = previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=3D170F2D33) (62 lines) = ------------------- To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" = References: <200508131408.j7DE8fYs023449@listserv.albany.edu> Subject: Vs: [BEE-L] Apistan after 4 years Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:01:30 +0300 Italians ( Milani if I recall right) showed last year results from a = study about apistan use in hives taht had had resistant mites. I don't = have the paper but recall that thre was better effect afrer about 4- 5 = years of no Apistan. But the effect was in 70 % range instead of the 97 = % that is normal for non-resistant mites.=20 This means that it takes longer to have a normal effect back. Tim if you = use Apistan now, be sure not to use it again next year as the resistance = starts to come back fast if 30 % of bees are still resistant.=20 Ari Finland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 00:09:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: ACS Subject: Re: Apistan after 4 years MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Forgive me if this post falls short of promoting this 'guy with bees' as "beekeeper". His management practice working off our backs is decidedly selfish & short-sighted to clearly help deny the remainder of us livelihood, simply to save himself a bit of effort/cost over a few seasons. Sort of like the impatient driver whom bumps your fender on the freeway only to drive the same speed in front of you. Very little gained & potentially a giant hazard for everyone concerned. If he/you wanted to breed Apistan resistance this would be EXACTLY the way to do it. To add to this discussion I wonder if beekeepers or Wellmark(mfg) could sue this 'guy with bees' for negligence if proof of his activities were available - knowingly/actively harming the industry? (anyone?) To answer your question -- can 4 years w/out Apistan bring back renewed effectiveness given obvious chance/probability of previous resistance? I'll cancel myself out as 'experienced' as we haven't found resistant varroa until last year -- shipped in from packages from CA and those varroa wiped out an entire out-apiary in the last two seasons. Nothing (legal) worked, though the ~dozen hives weren't worth chancing other activities. But common sense tells me once genetics are in place I doubt nature would work backwards. You'd do yourself and every beekeeper around you a great favor by use of alternative applications (i.e. Formic, OA (!!), Thymol, Sucracide). 100% kill is unlikely but at least you could slow down the transfer of your mites to your other hives or surrounding areas with a 'best-effort'. Does that 'guy with bees' still have hives or did he sell them all to you? Matthew Westall - E-Bees, Castle Rock, CO - one of the few times I've been thoroughly disgusted with an element in our community ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Vaughan" To: Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 8:08 AM Subject: [BEE-L] Apistan after 4 years > I found > out that the guy who I'd bought the majority of my > hives from left the > Apistan strips in all year and scraped them with > the hive tool when he > visited the hives. > > Does anyone have any experience, or even an educated guess as to whether 4 > years without Apistan would have selected for mites that would now be > susceptible to Apistan? I'd like to give Check-mite a break this year. > > Thanks and regards to the list > Tim Vaughan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:07:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Apistan after 4 years In-Reply-To: <200508140446.j7E4aGP3000743@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: >Take a mite count doing an ether or sugar roll and determine the level >of mites you have in a hive or hives. > >Then install a sticky board and 1 or 2 apistan strips and after 24-48 >hours see what kind of drop you get with the Apistan. Repeating this >with other types of treatments will give you some insight to if you have >resistant mites. > > Actually, you will get good drop from Apistan even if you have resistance. Apistan is used to see the level of infestation even in a previously resistant colony, and also with cumophose resistant mites. In fact, you can put in a Cumophose strip and get little drop and an Apistan strip and get good drop if the mites are resistant to both. It will probably be misleading to use the drop as an indicator of resistance in the colony. The key was posted by someone else who noted that you will get much less effectiveness from the strip, but you will get some control. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:58:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: New product Bob said: > We need to force the word IMITATION HONEY on each > bear and the largest print on the bear! The CURRENT laws on the books require this. The only problem is getting some wannabe Elliot Spitzer interested in making a name for him or herself by prosecuting the fraud. A few months ago, I tossed together "The Wall Of Shame" http://bee-quick.com/wall/ It is an attempt to document misleading uses of the term "honey" in packaged foods. The criteria used are simple - if you want to use the word "Honey" on the front of the box to sell more product, then honey should be the PRIMARY sweetener used. I don't expect anyone to use honey as the only sweetener, as this simply is not practical in some specific types of food products. If you play fair, your product goes into the "Hall Of Fame". If you don't, you get shoved up against the "Wall Of Shame". Simple. So, for example, the Honeytree Imitation Honey is here: http://bee-quick.com/wall/honeytree.html If anyone can e-mail me a legible photo of the label on the "Purity" swill, I will be happy to add it to the collection of 250+ misleading nationally-marketed products that dishonestly exploit the term "honey". Ditto for any other "nominations" anyone might care to make. If anyone is interested, below is a quick review of how current laws can be used to make examples of at least the half-dozen products designated as "The Worst of The Worst", as they contain no honey at all. (They can be found at http://bee-quick.com/wall/worst.html ) The US Federal Food Drug and Cosmetic Act (FFDC) is the law that applies. FFDC 403(a)(1) states: "A food shall be deemed to be misbranded its labeling is false or misleading in any particular..." FFDC 403(c) continues: "If it is an imitation of another food, unless its label bears, in type of uniform size and prominence, the word "imitation" and, immediately thereafter, the name of the food imitated." Clearly, "honey powder", "dried honey", "honey solids", and other hand-waving attempts to use the word "honey" to describe something that is not honey at all should be clearly marked "Imitation Honey". High-fructose corn syrup is also "imitation honey", and so is sugar, and every other sweetener that is included in a greater quantity than honey when the word "Honey" is featured in the name of the product or on the front of the box. FFDC 403(f) further defines misbranding to be: "If any word, statement, or other information required by or under authority of this Act to appear on the label or labeling is not prominently placed thereon with such conspicuousness (as compared with other words, statements, designs, or devices, in the labeling) and in such terms as to render it likely to be read and understood by the ordinary individual under customary conditions of purchase and use." A recent study by the (US) National Honey Board and Fleishman-Hillard http://bee-quick.com/wall/readthelabel.html shows that "virtually all consumers when presented with a product with the word honey in its name, expect the product to not only actually contain honey, but also use honey as the primary sweetener." This is credible evidence that can be used to prosecute offending companies, in that an impartial study shows that consumers are misled by these specific practices. It is NOT the consumer's responsibility to get a degree in chemistry to be able to buy food. It is the food companies responsibility to avoid misleading the typical consumer. If they don't, it is the responsibility of the government to protect the consumer. We beekeepers simply haven't gotten angry enough about this. We need to bite the hand that misleads us. jim :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:31:31 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: Apistan after 4 years MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Must get this of my chest: You guys all talk about Apistan and other 'nice' treatments with chemicals as active ingredients as if it is perfectly okay and THE thing to do, but I don't see it that way and would never ever allow it in one of my hives! I get the impression that in the USA in particular people readily use just anything that has been marketed. But think of all the junk residues in your wax, honey and whatever other byproducts you might use from the hives. It is your own choice if you consume your hive products willingly, while knowing that it may contain chemical residues from your treatments, but if brought on the market and dished up for unknowing customers then you are handling in a careless and inresponsible way, mildly put! The same counts for the wax that you might be handing in for melting, have you ever considered who it is that will finish up with your polluted wax? A lot of negative reports about Chinese honey have come to our ears just lately, but isn't it high time to take a serious peep into own court to see what we are doing wrong ourselves in our beekeeping? It would better to have a look at the chemical free alternatives that are offered nowadays and apply them in stead! Ron van Mierlo Sweden > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Apistan after 4 years :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:43:04 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: Hot weather grafting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A very late response, but better late than never I suppose! No Mike I have not used the tool that you described, although I believe that some of my set of needles are of Chinese origin too. I made some of my own as well from different steel, peened, ground, filed, bend and polished them to suit my own requirements. I'll have a look to see how the one that you mentioned differs in form and size.... Ron van Mierlo Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Hot weather grafting > > >>I found that much of the royal jelly stays behind as the larva is lifted >>from the original cell bottom, regardless of >>the tools and method used. >>Ron van Mierlo > > Have you used the "Chinese" grafting tool? It scoops the entire puddle of > jelly, and deposits it, along with the larvae, in the cup. > Mike :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:05:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Apistan after 4 years "Does that 'guy with bees' still have hives or did he sell them all to you?" I understand most of his hives are dead, but he's taken to mentoring people. Last year at a Santa Maria beekeeping club meeting I was going through some of my hives with some people, including the wife of a fertilizer salesman who was just starting out with bees. She told me it was also her practice to put Apistan strips permanently in her hives and to scrape them periodically. I asked what her husband thought of such a blatant disregard for labeling, and she just mumbled something. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:19:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Fall treatment with oxalic acid In-Reply-To: <42FE1E0F.3010603@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Aug 13, 2005, at 12:21 PM, Bill Truesdell wrote: > > OA is cheap, simple to use, and effective so I can understand why > it is > used in Europe. It would be nice to see it registered in the US and > Canada. > Hi Bill The CHC (Canadian Honey Council) has gone through the legal process to have OA used as a late fall treatment for Varroa. It appears that it will be approved for use this year(2005) Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:03:11 -0400 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Apistan after 4 years MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Formic Acid and Thymol are now approved in the US and are good soft alternatives that mites will not become resistant to. How can you know that? Have you been to the future? Lots of things weren't supposed to happen but did in the end in this world. The concorde, the space shuttle, the titanic, german high speed rail tragedy, antibiotic resistance, gypsy moths, love bugs, telapia, hygrophilia, africanized honey bee. None of these tragedies and problems were projected to happen, yet they did. The only way for us to counter a problem like varroa is to allow nature to find the balance. Just as resistant strains of mites have reared their heads, so have strains of honey bees been showing resistance to varroa, when both strain and management style allow nature to do her job. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/ http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:27:47 -0400 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Apistan after 4 years In-Reply-To: <005301c5a0db$e289f0a0$142965d5@roneefje> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I throughly agree with Ron. It is shameful the way we deal with problems in the country. Always looking for bandaids to fix our problems and wondering why the bandaid breaks when it can't handle the pressure. Nature knows what she is doing, why are we fighting nature which always finds the balance in the end. You can't fight her, she will always win. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, FL USA http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ mailto:scot@linuxfromscratch.org . ` , ` ' .,';`,. ``. '. _/^\_ :;.,';`'.,` `., ' '`, /_____\ .:.,"'` /\_____/\ .,:`'" \###/.,';` :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:56:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: What is approved Oxalic treatment in Canada? In-Reply-To: <005301c5a0db$e289f0a0$142965d5@roneefje> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Curious as to just what was authorized for Oxalic Acid treatment in Canada. Also, what are the current recommended concentrations for drip and other methods of treatment? It has been two years since I looked up the best concentration for the drip method. I doubt if it has changed much, but would appreciate knowing what was approved. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:29:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Apistan after 4 years In-Reply-To: <000a01c5a149$528639a0$cffbf704@workstation> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: >Nature knows what she is doing, why are we fighting nature which always >finds the balance in the end. You can't fight her, she will always win. > > Nice to know that. I just got through with antibiotic treatment for a very bad case of bronchitis. Cleared it up nicely, but obviously, I should have refused the treatment and hoped for survival. Also my recent bout with cancer: I guess I should have refused treatment and not fight nature.. But then I would have been dead. We all will die, but that has no reference to allowing "nature" to speed up the process. Our bees will all die, but there is no real need to sacrifice them. We do not do that when we or our children are involved. Or even our pets. In my garden, I pull weeds. Mother nature can find her own place to grow them. In all of life, we do not let nature take its course. Truth is, we fight it daily and live longer and better as a result. I lean strongly toward using the least harmful thing for my bees, including small cell. But all beekeeping is local. You might have excellent results with a "natural" technique in the south while it would be a disaster in the north. A good example is something as simple as winter feed. Most bees in the south can survive nicely on just about anything, while bees in the north will not survive the winter or come through poorly on the same feed. I restrain my condemnation of those who "do not do as I do" just because something works for me but may not for others. If someone wants to refuse chemotherapy or radiation as a cancer treatment and go natural, I have no problem. I would council them to do otherwise. I did the research and found that most do not make it going that route, but the few that do give great testimonials on its "effectiveness". (That is my new law, by the way: The Law of the Survivor. Every person I talked to when I was in the middle of fighting my malignant melanoma either survived it or were in the middle of treatment and fighting it. So there obviously was a 100% survivor rate, since all I talked to were alive. You only hear from the survivor as to the efficacy of most anything. The ones who do not survive, cannot tell you about their mistake in following a different path. We who have been on this list for a long time can attest to all the new, "effective" treatments that were espoused by those no longer keeping bees. Many followed those pied pipers and we do not hear from them either.) I am in total agreement with those who posted about the mis-use of Apistan. But I will not condemn those who use it as registered. I will try to educate them on alternatives, but it is an allowed pesticide and was the stop-gap for many of us when the battle was being fought. It allowed us more than ten years to look at other methods of control including other bees that might be mite resistant. If it had not been around and we had allowed nature to take its course, there would not be much of a beekeeping industry around today. I thank God daily for all those who preceded me in the fight against cancer. Were it not for their willingness to fight nature and, from that, work toward a cure, I would not be posting this. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:54:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Bee (and plant) points of interest in North Carolina. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain My wife and I plan to vacation in North Carolina (possibly staying in Virginia and perhaps South Carolina a bit) in the 2nd week of September. Can folks recommend sites worth visiting that relate to honey bees, gardening, and landscaping? Thank you! Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:01:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bees Invade Matinee of College Musical MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.search-bar.com/jsxml/news.php/bees_invade_matinee_of_college_m= usical :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:27:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: What is approved Oxalic treatment in Canada? In-Reply-To: <43009F0A.1090003@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For info, this is what I wrote for our State newsletter several years ago. The research came from Europe and found that OA works best within a range and is harmful above that range and ineffective below it. Since this might have changed, it is provided with caution, but it is what I used and was effective. Remember, I wrote this for Maine Beekeepers. Part of the article is below my sig. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine The research papers I read which trialled Oxalic Acid drip method found it works within a set range of concentrations. Their recommendations are ** *Composition of the solution: *35 g oxalic acid dihydrate in 1-liter sugar syrup 1:1 *Quantity: *30 ml for a small colony 40 ml for a medium colony 50 ml for a large colony This quantity corresponds to 5 – 6 ml for each occupied bee-space of a Dadant or Swiss hive. *Time of treatment: *In broodless colonies (November – December) *Remarks:* · only *one *treatment in autumn · drip the solution directly on the bees between the frames · treat with lukewarm solution · perform the treatment at an ambient temperature above 0o C · use only freshly prepared solutions or solutions that have been stored for max. 6 months at a maximum of 15o C (New info says do not do this but prepare new solution for each use, and I agree) · under certain conditions, drip treatment with oxalic acid may slightly weaken the colonies in spring. The spray treatment with oxalic acid is better tolerated by the bees (30 g OA dihydrate / liter water, 3-4 ml per occupied frame side) · wear gloves and safety goggles during the treatment The drip method was over 90% effective in killing Varroa. My comments on the research: Preparation: The solution is prepared using one liter of water with one kilogram of sugar and 70 grams of store bought Oxalic Acid (which is Oxalic Acid Dihydrate). Mix thoroughly. (For those still helplessly addicted to pints and pounds and who do not need a quarts worth of solution, use one pint of water, one pint of sugar, and 1.168 ounces of Oxalic acid (same as about 2 1/3 tablespoons, or 7 teaspoons, or 2 tablespoons plus 1 teaspoon- all level and be precise) This is enough to treat about ten hives). Application: I use a 150 or 100ml syringe, which you can buy at many farm supply stores, and drip 5ml of the mixture from end to end between frames for each hive body (or frame of bees). Trickle down 5ml of the solution by slowly pushing down on the syringe plunger. Do not be in a hurry or it will squirt out and not drip out. When to apply: In the fall when the colony is near broodless. You can apply it down to freezing temperatures, so it is excellent to apply in November. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:35:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee (and plant) points of interest in North Carolina. In-Reply-To: <20050815.085502.18801.403036@webmail26.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: >My wife and I plan to vacation in North Carolina (possibly staying in Virginia and perhaps South Carolina a bit) in the 2nd week of September. > >Can folks recommend sites worth visiting that relate to honey bees, gardening, and landscaping? > > > I would definitely try to see the Pollinator (Dave Green) in South Carolina. http://www.pollinator.com/ Ask him about The Secret Life of Bees and how he gave such bad info (just kidding). He advised the author on beekeeping. Very good book. (Just got through another- The Beekeeper's Apprentice, another excellent book.) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:42:01 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Predrag Cvetkovic Subject: the best moment to remove yang queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear BEE-L friends, I have a question concerning removing yang mated queens from small nucs. What is the best moment to do that? I could find only one answer in my beekeeping books, it was from Russian professor Avetisian (Avetisjan). He says that it is just after queen starts laying. Opposite to that can be more logical for me but I am not sure and there are not other references. I practice putting ten days old queen cells in nucs instead of producing virgin queens in incubators and always when I have to move a fertile queen, I am a bit sad. best regards Predrag Cvetkovic, Serbia :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:31:43 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: What is approved Oxalic treatment in Canada? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bill wrote: >>This quantity corresponds to 5 – 6 ml for each occupied bee-space of a Dadant or Swiss hive. I tried to apply 5 ml per each bee-space and experienced affected queens last spring. But understand from Ari from Finland, that it should be 4 ml per bee-space in a Langstrogh hive and the dose must be in proportion to the amount of bees. >>*Time of treatment: *In broodless colonies (November – December) I applied the OA on Dec. 13, 04. It was a balmy day and the application took only a few minutes per hive. >>· only *one *treatment in autumn I've also heard that it should one treatment per queen. In other words, subjecting a queen to more than 1 treatment, can affect her laying. Some advocate re-queening annually for this reason. >>· perform the treatment at an ambient temperature above 0o C A Swiss website suggested temps > 5 C. >>...use one pint of water, one pint of sugar, and 1.168 ounces of Oxalic acid (same as about 2 1/3 tablespoons, or 7 teaspoons, or 2 tablespoons plus 1 teaspoon- all level and be precise) I used a gram-weight scale to get an accurate concentration. The recommended rate results in a somewhat strong solution - I some solution left over after the treatment and it eroded the shiny coating in the metal coffee can after several days. >>Application: ...drip 5ml of the mixture from end to end between frames for each hive body (or frame of bees). It should be emphasized that the solution amount should be directly proportional to the number of bees covering the frame. The full dose should applied to a bee space fully covered by bees. If 60% of the space is covered with bees, apply only 60% of the dose. (I had not made good approximation of the bee coverage and applied the full dose, I think, that's why had queen problems in the spring build-up.) When in doubt err on the lighter side. You will still kill a lot of varroa. I think OA is just about the best treatment for varroa today. I've seen a single varroa since the treatment. In a study, OA treated colonies showed equal or lower OA concentration in honey - OA naturally occurs in honey - compared to control colonies. There is no wax contamination. But one must develop a good feel for the OA application amounts and apply to broodless colonies which means catching those few warm days in the late fall or early winter in the North. The control is very cost effective. I bought a small container of OA at a local hardware store for ~$5 and with my number of colonies, it will last ~10 years. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:06:30 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: the best moment to remove yang queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hello Predrag, I've seen good queen producers' websites say that they keep the young queens laying in the nucs for 3-4 weeks since this appears to extend their productive lives. But this is for mail order purposes! So if you move your young queens to nearby hives, you may not need to wait this long. I planted the phacelia seed last year but was disappointed not to see any come up. I checked the pockets and found a few seeds left so I planted them again this summer and have about 4 plants 10-15 cm high! I'll save the seed and plant more. Hope you are well! Waldemar :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:34:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: O/A treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My friend from Germany wants to know why we are still talking about = liquid treatments with O/A when it is so easy to sublimate. (vaporize = from a powder) with a little heat. No need to open the hive and the bees = don't seem to know anything except that you copped them in for 15-20 = mins. They've been doing it for years. Any German readers on the list? Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:23:54 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: O/A treatment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>My friend from Germany wants to know why we are still talking about liquid treatments with O/A when it is so easy to sublimate. (vaporize from a powder) with a little heat. OA dribbling requires no special gear and the hive does not have to be sealed to contain the vapors. The operator does not risk inhaling the OA vapors either. I have heard many people have gone from OA sublimation to dribbling. I imagine dribbling is quicker - I have not seen or tried sublimation. Waldemar :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 01:31:41 +0200 Reply-To: jorn_johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: [BEE-L] O/A treatment In-Reply-To: <000a01c5a1d8$c5125cd0$04000100@drivec> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Emne: [BEE-L] O/A treatment > > > My friend from Germany wants to know why we are still talking > about liquid treatments with O/A when it is so easy to sublimate. > (vaporize from a powder) with a little heat. Dripping takes a few minutes contrary to vaporizing. The vaporizer itself must cool off and will be worn out by a short time, if you have more than a few hives. Further more it is known that imitation of the vaporizer is not doing a perfect job. But otherwise a combination of formic acid in spring and oxalic acid in autumn is a way to go when apistan and fumadil is loosing it effectiveness. The varroareport on my web is still valid even it is old. Best regards Jorn Johanesson maybe the best and Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. With integrated update facility. Version 8.0.3.0 now translated into 14 languages with more to come. hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk Bidata support forum = http://www.apimo.dk/apimo_forum/ e-mail apimo@apimo.dk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:31:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: O/A treatment In-Reply-To: <000a01c5a1d8$c5125cd0$04000100@drivec> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Marron wrote: >My friend from Germany wants to know why we are still talking about liquid treatments with O/A when it is so easy to sublimate. (vaporize from a powder) with a little heat. > > There are vaporizers for sale on the net and also some home grown DIY contraptions of pipes and such. If I were a large operation, I would definitely go the vaporizer route, in spite of its additional hazards (dealing with a corrosive vapor). But a hobby beekeeper can get by just fine with the drip method. All I have seen shows the same effectiveness for both methods. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:59:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: O/A treatment In-Reply-To: <430133DE.4040301@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > If I were a large operation, I would > definitely go the vaporizer route, in spite of its additional hazards > (dealing with a corrosive vapor). > Interesting, the other responses about them burning out fairly quickly. I value the posters experience, and it makes sense, because you are dealing with a corrosive acid. Also, as I recall, the vaporizer did require a wait between each application for things to cool down. So pay no attention to the man behind the screen (who obviously does not know what he is talking about) and stick with the drip instead (pun intended). Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:33:29 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland & Dorothy Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Bee article in newspapers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Columbus (OH) Dispatch ran an article about beekeeping Monday, August 15, 2005 Jonathan Dubin KNIGHT RIDDER NEWSPAPERS General theme: "but the buzz among beekeepers is the industry is struggling. Among the challenges: slumping honey prices, low fees for pollination services, and a host of natural and human pests." Might look for in if you have a Knight Ridder paper in your area. Leland Hubell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:20:50 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] What is approved Oxalic treatment in Canada? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar wrote >I've also heard that it should one treatment per queen. In other words, subjecting a queen to more than 1 treatment, can affect her laying. Some advocate re-queening annually for this reason. Would you have any data for this. I have myself lots of quees that have been in hives for 2 treatments and can see no effects. Also have not seen anything hinting this in our data for 220 hives for 4 yeras. Even overdose or double tratments in fall have not given damage to the queen. Only kills a lot of bees during the winter. For some reason that no one knows the bees can not take 2 treatments in fall. But you can treat late fall and early spring with no bad effects. We have a researcher who has been doing this for 3 years. It's the same bees because we have no brood during winter. Spring treatment must be done immideately after cleansing flight for the colonies to be with only minimal of brood. Here in the north bees don't fly out at all for 4 - 6 months. But I would no recommend this yet. Better to treat only once and use some other kind of treatments to fill up if needed. But we do research because double tratement could be an favourite option for some beekeepers. > It should be emphasized that the solution amount should be directly proportional to the number of bees covering the frame. The full dose should applied to a bee space fully covered by bees. If 60% of the space is covered with bees, apply only 60% of the dose. (I had not made good approximation of the bee coverage and applied the full dose, I think, that's why had queen problems in the spring build-up.) When in doubt err on the lighter side. You will still kill a lot of varroa. The statement abowe is the most important in drip method. You aim to hit the bees with the solution and therefore you measure the amount acconding to the amount of bees - quite logical. Vith vapour you try to fill all the hive therefore you need always same amount for the same hive no matter how many bees in hive. When talking about speed, the drip method is faster unless you have a special automatic vapour machine that we have seen some Canadians to have. But these machines cost quite abit and the work reduction is not much if you don't have to open wraps around the hive. I have insulated hives so I only take lid off and drip. 1 - 2 minutes / hive including all work exept travel. Just taking a big vapouraiser out of car and pulling to the yard ( and back) , waiting for initial heat builup could take more time. Expecially here where we have 6 - 8 hives / yard. But it's different if you have 30 - 100 hives / yard and wraps around. Ari Seppälä beekeeping advisor / beekeeper Finland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:37:12 +1200 Reply-To: dave@thebeegardens.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Black Subject: Re: the best moment to remove yang queen In-Reply-To: <000701c5a1be$404a5a80$507d89d5@predrag> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might find this report, from the Australian NSW Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation in 2003, interesting in this respect. In essence (but read the report), the answer is thirty (30) days. http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/03-049sum.html Rather than surviving introduction, I wonder about the long term performance of the queen, especially if she was from a mini-nuc that restricted her capacity to lay. More work to be done I guess. Dave Black Otanewainuku, New Zealand. www.thebeegardens.com > -----Original Message----- > From: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On > Behalf Of Predrag Cvetkovic > Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2005 03:42 > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: the best moment to remove yang queen > > > I have a question concerning removing yang mated queens from small nucs. > What is the best moment to do that? > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 05:40:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: Why not sublimation metod for oxalic acid Mon, 15 Aug 2005 Dick Marron said: My friend from Germany wants to know why we are still talking about liquid treatments with O/A when it is so easy to sublimate. and: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 Bill Truesdell said: I would definitely go the vaporizer route, in spite of its additional hazards (dealing with a corrosive vapor). Hallo all, Russians has been dealing with oxalic acid long time before West Europeans (1980's, than USSR). Their primary recommendations, regarding metod of application, were vaporizing (sublimation) and spraying (late 1980's). In those times they did little research on dripping method. They did not recommend OA in our days. I suspect that they use it, but not on large scale. Why? Yes, there is a some anegdotal reports of varroa resistance to OA. But... Primary reason is special beekeepers desease (attack: kidney, result: stones). (We are talking of long term exposure!) Why sublimation metod is not recommended? Because it leaves (contaminates) around 60% of OA crystals distributed at all surfaces of hive (inside)! (After sublimation 40-60% of acid will return in crystalline form) There is no way for bees to clean the hive 100% in short time (it is just opposite, they avoid it, because it is too acidic for them), and there is no way for beekeeper to not catch some OA crystals on his skin - even if he is using gloves all the time. OA crystals in dry and dark conditions can be "active" long time. That's why beekeepers use twice smaller quantity of OA dihydrate, when they use sublimation metod, and why this method is much better for varroa kill, but... Regards, Aleksandar Mihajlovski Macedonian beekeeping journal: "Melitagora" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:29:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: O/A treatment In-Reply-To: <20050815.142444.28133.1183@webmail18.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-E75678C > I imagine dribbling is quicker - I have not seen or tried sublimation. > >Waldemar I guess this depends upon the size of the hive you use. I believe that with single story colonies, dribble would be quicker. But, with multiple story hives, vaporization would be quicker. The sugar/OA solution must get on every bee. With multiple story hives, this means taking the hive apart, treating the bees in each box, and then re-assembling the hive. With a vaporizer, this doesn't have to be done. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 8/14/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:38:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: O/A treatment In-Reply-To: <43013A7E.4000409@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-E75678C > Interesting, the other responses about them burning out fairly quickly. > Also, as I recall, the vaporizer did >require a wait between each application for things to cool down. With multiple vaporizers, last November I easily treated 100 colonies per day. The larger the operation, the more vaporizers that are needed. Total time, including cool down, was about 4 minutes per colony. I didn't have any problems with my vaporizers burning out. A time trial must be done, to find how long it takes to vaporize the 2g of OA. This is done outside the hive. This is then the time allowed for the vaporizer to be energized within the hive. This helps prevent the vaporizer from overheating. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 8/14/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:44:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: the best moment to remove yang queen In-Reply-To: <000701c5a1be$404a5a80$507d89d5@predrag> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-E75678C > I have a question concerning removing yang mated queens from small nucs. >What is the best moment to do that? When raising cells/mated queens, I am on an 8 day cycle. On the 5th day of the cycle, cells are ready to install. On the 4th day of the cycle, queens are ready to catch. I go through two cycles after the cells are installed...meaning the queens are mated and laying 16 days after the cells are installed. At this time, most have eggs and young larvae. There is some variation in the bees. Some strains take just a bit longer, so they may just have eggs on the 16th day. Then there are those Russians. They take a bit longer...something like 20 days...or so I have been told. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 8/14/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:18:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: O/A treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>My friend from Germany wants to know why we are still talking about >>>liquid treatments with O/A when it is so easy to sublimate. (vaporize >>>from a powder) with a little heat. No need to open the hive and the bees >>>don't seem to know anything except that you copped them in for 15-20 >>>mins. They've been doing it for years. Any German readers on the list?<<< Will Canada do? I have a few things, including some fascinating illustrations and links at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/. Choose "Selected Topics", and then choose among the "Mite and Mite Treatment" topics. allen Very retired beekeeper, 2000 miles from home Owner of ~80 very neglected hives :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:00:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard Kogan Subject: Hobby Extractor I am looking for a small hobby extractor. Anyone have any recommendations as to good quality/reasonable hand-cranked models? Howard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:40:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: O/A treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > With multiple story hives, this means taking the hive apart, > treating the bees in each box, and then re-assembling the hive. Seems to me that with doubles, separating the boxes may be easy for some who scrape a lot, but for the rest of us, it is simple to roll (tumble) the two boxes forward until the bottom of the hive is facing up, dribble, then roll back into place, using a pallet or some such platform to roll onto, if the hives are far off the ground. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:08:17 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] What is approved Oxalic treatment in Canada? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Ari asked: >>I have myself lots of quees that have been in hives for 2 treatments and can see no effects. Also have not seen anything hinting this in our data for 220 hives for 4 yeras. Even overdose or double tratments in fall have not given damage to the queen. Only kills a lot of bees during the winter. I only read about it somewhere. I treated 3 hives and believe to have applied too much of the [right concentration] solution. My observation was that the clusters coming out of the winter were smaller than usual. One queen disappeared, one queen stopped laying after about a month, the third queen laid up only 3 frames and her bees started supercedure. These had been all young queens raised in the previous July/August. There could have been other factors but I assumed the decline was due to my applying the full dose to each bee space occupied by bees. I later came to realize the dose should be directly proportional to the amount of bees in each bee space. >>For some reason that no one knows the bees can not take 2 treatments in fall. You mention double treatments have not damaged the queens in your experience. Are they 'tougher' than the worker bees? >>Spring treatment must be done immideately after cleansing flight for the colonies to be with only minimal of brood. Here in the north bees don't fly out at all for 4 - 6 months. A back-up treatment in the spring is always a great option. I have not done it. It's August, the bees have recovered, and I don't see varroa in drone brood or on the bees. I'll check varroa drops in September/October. Regards, Waldemar :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:16:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Hobby Extractor In-Reply-To: <200508161200.j7GBrLq5019142@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit re: Howard Kogan 's request for recommendations for "a small hobby extractor" I just purchased the all-plastic model this year. It is made in China. I've only used it in one extraction. I'm happy with it so far. Advantages: - Least expensive (Even the cheapest used extractor I could find was about double the price I paid new) - Being all plastic, I don't have to worry about the problems of enamel paint or galvanized. - It was easy to clean afterward. - It is very small. As a backyard hobbyist, storage space is a premium for me. Disadvantages: - Even though the basket is theoretically big enough for 4 medium frames, the way the bracing is designed, you can only get 2 frames of any size in at a time. - The bottom of the basket is open with just two cross-pieces. It's sized for a deep frame. If you're not very careful when you put smaller frames in the basket, they can slip and fall through the bottom. Not too bad if it happens while you're putting the frames in but a rather sudden surprise if it happens while you're cranking. - There is no easy way to bracket it to a stand or stool. Insufficient data so far to comment on durability. Ask again in a few years... I hope that helps. Mike Rossander __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:17:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: O/A treatment In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050816062429.01bb3590@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer wrote: > > The sugar/OA solution must get on > every bee. First time I have seen this. Just about impossible with the drip method and I certainly never came close to every bee. Maybe many on the upper part of the frames but I am sure I missed most below them. There were some trials with spraying but the drip method worked just as well. There were even tests done with the drops on the frames. It is a sugar solution so the bees will take it up no matter where it might be. My guess is if it on a bee the others will help out by "grooming" it off, so it just gets to where it should be faster, but I await our European friends who have much more info on OA for a more definitive response. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:17:40 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Why not sublimation metod for oxalic acid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Russians has been dealing with oxalic acid long time before West Europeans...Their primary recommendations...were vaporizing (sublimation) and spraying (late 1980's). <...> They did not recommend OA in our days. I suspect that they use it, but not on large scale. What is the most popular treatment method for varroa in Russia today then? Any Russians on Bee-L? From what I've read, except for Asia, they have had varroa the longest. >>Why? Yes, there is a some anegdotal reports of varroa resistance to OA. But... Primary reason is special beekeepers desease (attack: kidney, result: stones). (We are talking of long term exposure!) I can understand the concern about inhaling OA vapors but think the OA liquid drip method is very safe with basic precautions. >>Why sublimation metod is not recommended? Because it leaves (contaminates) around 60% of OA crystals distributed at all surfaces of hive (inside)! I use metal-screen bottom boards. I would have to seal the bottom to contain the vapors. And the acidic vapors could possibly attack the metal screens. The OA liquid solution ends up [mostly] on the bees. >>beekeepers use twice smaller quantity of OA dihydrate, when they use sublimation metod, and why this method is much better for varroa kill, but... The research reports I've read showed similar effectiveness as far as varroa kills with both methods. Waldemar :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:24:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Hobby Extractor In-Reply-To: <200508161200.j7GBrLq5019142@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howard Kogan wrote: >I am looking for a small hobby extractor. Anyone have any recommendations >as to good quality/reasonable hand-cranked models? Howard > > > Get a motorized extractor. I have lived with a hand operated one and am experimenting on how to mechanize it. Your back, arms and various other parts of your body will be eternally grateful. As will any sons and daughters you might have, since I enlisted my son to help a couple of weeks ago. He no longer answers the phone (just kidding). Mine is a very good Maxant two frame, but I would still go with a motor driven one. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:33:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: What is approved Oxalic treatment in Canada? In-Reply-To: <4300C283.7010202@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill, You refer to "store bought" Ox Acid. The only local store bought stuff I can find is commonly called "wood bleach," or specifically the brand name Savogran (out of Norwood, MA). I can buy it at my local Ace Hardware store. Will this work or is there some other product you had in mind? Grant Jackson, MO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:07:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] What is approved Oxalic treatment in Canada? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My understanding, from a Canadian researcher, is that if the *same bees* ar= e=20 treated twice with OA they tend to develop difficulties with digestion of= =20 foods. At a presentation I attended, he recommended treating with formic in= =20 late fall to kill the bulk of the mites and then 'polishing' with OA (by=20 drip) in early winter. He maintained that this combination would mostly mak= e=20 it unnecesary to treat again until the following fall. However, he did recommend monitoring in July/August and treating any yards= =20 that had 3-day mite falls over 30. See http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/IPM%20with%20APINOVAR_en.pd= ffor more information. --=20 Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:28:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: West Virginia Fall Meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Information on the fall meeting for the West Virginia Beekeepers Association is now posted on our web site. Please visit: http://www.wvbeekeepers.org/FallMeeting2005.html :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:09:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: What is approved Oxalic treatment in Canada? In-Reply-To: <20050816133304.19955.qmail@web34315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Grant Gillard wrote: >Bill, > >You refer to "store bought" Ox Acid. The only local store bought stuff I can find is commonly called "wood bleach," or specifically the brand name Savogran (out of Norwood, MA). > > Most all the Wood Bleach products are Oxalic acid and state so clearly on the label. The one I bought from a True Value store (now Ace) was "Bondex" and below the name "oxalic acid crystals" If I recall correctly (and I know I will have help here) it is oxalic acid dihydrate, but the only difference is in how much of that to use compared to pure OA (molecular weight 126.06 for dihydrate rs 90.0 for pure OA). Add to the confusion, the dihydrate is often named oxalic acid, just like the Bondex. As I noted in my first and second post, my numbers were based on two year old European research and may have changed. But so far, the numbers, amounts and methods seem to be in line with my post. In any case, it worked fine for me, but it would be nice to get definitive numbers for the dihydrate, if there is a difference. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:48:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: Larva on bottom board? I visited an outyard yesterday and noticed some bees trying to remove a clod of thatch and dirt from the entrance. I often grab a clump of grass to restrict hive openings in Spring and let the bees clear it out when the hive is stronger. I used the hook end of my hive tool to scrape the matted stuff out of the opening and there on the hive floor were a couple of skinny white larvae (smaller than wax moth and thinner than honeybees) about 1/3rd of inch long. Both were lively and wriggling. Now this is Carnation, WA - the Seattle area, so - I wonder - are there hive beetles other than SHB? The affected hive is quite strong in population so I am ASSuming they are a nuisance more than anything else - but, I keep wondering what they could be. TFL :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:01:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: Get bees out of a barrel? I tried unsuccessfully to get a hive of bees out of a whiskey barrel by using a screen cone exit into a hive box. I put wet comb and a frame of eggs and young larvae into the new hive. Lots of activity for a while but after two weeks the pound(?) of bees that adopted the hive box became moribund and just hung around apparently in a funk, very little flight activity. I re-opened the bung-hole opening yesterday and immediately 20 bees appeared and began fanning. At this point, I just want to get the bees out of the barrel - alive. Is there hope? The only opening is the bung-hole and it's not my barrel so I would not want to damage it. Any ideas? :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:13:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: What is approved Oxalic treatment in Canada? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by dickm@SNET.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. > ----------------- Original message (ID=4238FE16) (62 lines) ------------------- > From: "Dick Marron" > To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" > References: <20050816133304.19955.qmail@web34315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [BEE-L] What is approved Oxalic treatment in Canada? > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:34:13 -0400 > > > Don't know about the brand but I bought mine in a paint store > and it was sold as wood bleach. > > Dickm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:29:34 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland & Dorothy Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Motor tip for small extractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use a 2 speed electric motor on my 4 frame extractor. It was originally hand cranked, but had an adapter for a motor when we got it, used. I obtained a 2 speed motor from an old washing machine, use a single- pole double- throw switch ( regular 2-way light switch) to select the high-low speed connections. I start out on low speed with the full frames which gives me better control of speed with the friction clutch (Screw it tighter to go faster) and then up to full speed to finish out. Might help someone. Leland Hubbell :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:49:58 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: Apistan after 4 years MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The fight against Varroa is obviously one that keeps all beekeepers busy, even if they have not been plagued by it yet, just the threat of it is sufficient! That is clear from the sudden amount of responses on the 'Apistan after 4 years' and 'O/A treatment' subjects. It is my hope that some good method will soon be found that can get rid of these mites completely, without the use of any chemicals, including any acids, thymol and what have you. But what we have not taken up here yet are some of the methods that could at least help us to control (or minimize) the amount of mites to a workable level, through either the small cell beekeeping and/or the different schemes for drone brood removal. So my advice would be: don't grab that bottle with acid where the above named methods can do the same for you. So let's hear what the results are for the beekeepers that already use a drone removal scheme or small cell beekeeping..... Do any of them look like a sustainable way?? I'm lucky so far without Varroa, but "one not so sunny day" they will even turn up in my few hives, through a dumb action of myself, another person or just naturally by the bees. No matter what, I will have to have one of the cleaner countermeasures in place, ahead of the arrival! Ron van Mierlo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:25:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Get bees out of a barrel? In-Reply-To: <200508161701.j7GFOFki029305@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Milt, >At this point, I just want to get the bees out of the barrel - alive. Is >there hope? The only opening is the bung-hole and it's not my barrel so I >would not want to damage it. Any ideas? > This idea is untested, as far as I know. My brother lived for many years in Australia. A friend there had an overstuffed chair, on a covered porch, that became a home to a swarm of bees. I do not know how long they lived in the chair. Someone, who claimed to have experience, suggested that a 'no-pest-strip' be placed 'near' the entrance. They tried it and the bees absconded after a couple days (I think it was). How close the strip should be I do not know. Recently I asked my brother about this, but he did not recall much about the experience (he was involved but not closely - he is not a beekeeper). I would guess that 3 or 4 feet would be a good place to start, but a better guess might come from a reading of the label. If all else fails you might try this. I have never had occasion to try, and I would love to hear the results if you do try it. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:50:07 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Get bees out of a barrel? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>At this point, I just want to get the bees out of the barrel - alive. Is there hope? The only opening is the bung-hole and it's not my barrel so I would not want to damage it. Any ideas? I am not familiar with whiskey barrels but can either one of the round lids be popped off? Do you have a digital photo of the barrel? Might be able to offer some advice after seeing it. Waldemar Long Island :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:15:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: the best moment to remove yang queen In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050816063837.01bb4fd0@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > I have a question concerning removing yang mated > queens from small nucs. > >What is the best moment to do that? > According to research carried out by New South Wales Agriculture in 1997-98: The minimum age at which queen bees should be caught from mating nuclei lies between 24 and 35 days, this provided the premium survival of introduced queens after 15 weeks of 66.25%, 60% when queens caught at 28 day, and 72.5% when queens caught at 35 days. ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:27:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Get bees out of a barrel? In-Reply-To: <200508161701.j7GFOFki029305@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Milt Lathan wrote: ....I just want to get the bees out of > the barrel - alive. Is > there hope?... If you are located in the northern latitudes and what the bees to remain alive til next season, chances for this would probably be better if they are left to winter in the barrel, and doing the removal next spring. Unless of course, you have available resources needed to combine, add stores or brood if needed. Best Wishes, ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:09:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Get bees out of a barrel? In-Reply-To: <43024BBA.7050208@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...Someone, who claimed > to have experience, > suggested that a 'no-pest-strip' be placed 'near' > the entrance. They > tried it and the bees absconded after a couple days > (I think it was).... I strongly disapprove of the above!!! I am a licensed pesticide applicator here in PA. I DO know that 'in this state', it is illegal to use pesticide in a manner that is not in accordance with the labeled instructions. No pest strips, probably use active ingredient 'dichlorvos' which is very dangerous to children and known to cause cancer. It is also listed in Group 1 as 'Highly toxic to honeybees'. Best Wishes, ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:19:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Get bees out of a barrel? In-Reply-To: <20050816.135008.12727.17724@webmail24.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...Do you > have a digital photo of the barrel? Might be able > to offer some advice after seeing it. Here's one I caught this year, swarms seem to be attracted to the smell of Jack Daniel's whiskey. Maybe Milt's barrel is similar to this one: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/naturebee/detail?.dir=d450&.dnm=722c.jpg&.src=ph ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:07:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Hobby Extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Made in "China". This makes me think of an old saying "biting the hand that feeds you" except in reverse order. China honey is the reason honey in the USA is now about .65 cents per pound. Why buy anything from those folks if you can buy better items from USA made sources? Lionel North ALABAMA, USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:42:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: Re: Larva on bottom board? In-Reply-To: <200508161648.j7GGlOjP003232@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed i am sorry to say this but it sounds like them. as you examine the hive look for the beetles. then look at the frames . if i find them very early there is just a cluster on 1 or 2 frames and i can clean those affected frames. if however they have scattered, i usually lose the hive. which leads me to a question. what is a safe way to clean the pierco frames. can i scrub them with bleach and water. how much bleach is safe for the bees. will it leave residue on the plastic and affect the bees. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:25:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Almer's Apiary Subject: Re: Minimizing bee-beards In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In regard to minimizing bee beards, here's something I have had pretty good success with here in hot humid Alabama. Sprits the bee beard with ice water. It seems to have a similar effect to the old farm nights when you sat on the front porch to keep cool BUT if a sudden cool rain storm blew up, you went inside! May not work for everyone, but it works pretty good for me. Bob Fanning North Alabama USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:13:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Shaw Subject: Re: [WL] Re: [BEE-L] New product MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > The ingredients listed, in order, were: honey, high fructose corn > syrup, sugar, corn syrup, natural colour, caramel colour. My assumption is: Honey coming first is more than each other individual sweetener listed but if you add: hfcs+sugar+cs probably not. And therefore needs some colour. Seems intentional to me. Dick in Memphis 5 hives and counting... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:55:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Hobby Extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 This message was originally submitted by mmoose2@CAROLINA.RR.COM to the = BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of = previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=3D5374C530) (55 lines) = ------------------- From: "Marvin Moose" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" = References: <200508161200.j7GBrLq5019142@listserv.albany.edu> Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Hobby Extractor Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:25:27 -0400 I have a stainless 9 frame radial hand crank that works excellent. I purchased it from Brushy Mountain Bee Supply in North Carolina. = Depending on how much you are willing to spend you may want to get the motorized = unit, however I highly recommend getting a radial extractor. On good thing = about the hand crank model is that it is good way to get some exercise. Marvin Moose Lowell, North Carolina :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:58:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Hobby Extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 This message was originally submitted by ik1238@KINGSTON.NET to the = BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously = posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=3DCD70524D) (54 lines) = ------------------- From: "Kent Stienburg" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" = References: <200508161200.j7GBrLq5019142@listserv.albany.edu> = <4301E910.8020407@suscom-maine.net> Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Hobby Extractor Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:39:17 -0400 > Howard Kogan wrote: > > >I am looking for a small hobby extractor. =20 I don't think you said how many hives you have or how much honey you = extract in your area. I only have 4 hives now. They are currently going to = produce around 110-160 lbs each. I have to agree with Bill. When I first got = into the bees I used my grandfathers old hand crank After the initial = interest wears off everyone seems to be busy the next year at the exact time you want to extract. I have a good friend who welds so he made me up a stainless drum and assembly for a 6 frame medium. I then went to a shop that sold used motors and bought a Bodine gear motor with a right angle shaft. Its RPM was 143 with a torque of 30 in/lb. I then bought some pulleys with a 2:1 ratio and a belt so I could have an extraction RPM of close to 300. By tightening or loosening the tension of the belt I = could control my speed. It is fairly economical. With an AC motor you will = need a clutch or pulleys as the AC motor will run the best at full RPM. I = have since built one with a DC motor and drive. Not because I felt I had = to, just because I could. Kent :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:15:16 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Get bees out of a barrel? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT My inventive streak comes to the fore once in a while. How about connecting a vacuum hose to the bung hole, and "drawing" the bees into a box of some sort? From box to hive might work for you. Or maybe go directly from barrel to hive. "Necessity is the mother of invention" EDW :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:17:27 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Hobby Extractor MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Is getting a sale for US goods in China a consideration in your thinking? International trade MUST be a two way street for it to endure. > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:37:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: So you think you are a good beekeeper--- In-Reply-To: <4302308E.90306@johnstown.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As some know I have been going through some health problems and only recently finished up with bronchitis and a dislocated kneecap. So my bees were a low priority over the past 12 months. It was only through some help last fall, that I was finally able to treat them and prevent the loss of all my colonies. As is, I lost one, and had three weak hives plagued with Varroa going into the winter, which leads to the reason for this post. At different times I have been asked to speak to bee clubs (one this next weekend on getting ready for winter). I have been embarrassed, recently, to do so because of my total absence in the bee yard. Last year, after losing one colony, I decided to just leave it there and buttoned it up to prevent robbing, until I could check just what killed it. In the spring, I gave it a quick check and it was Varroa, not foul brood. A short time later one hive tipped over and was wide open overnight during a rain. So I figured if I had one or two colonies make it I would be happy, but expected none. All three did. I could not reverse them in the spring nor do any swarm controls so just let them be. I only put two supers on each before my leg went out and bronchitis hit, so could not add more. In all, the perfect picture of one of George's BeeHAVERS. I asked my son to help me with my first extraction after the clover flow (much in the archives on why I do this- all from George Imire) and had six filled supers. I put on the bee escapes and the next morning pulled the supers only after I killed my knee again and, when twisting, opened my veil and had about 10,000 bees start sting my forehead, so took off a glove to close the veil and had another 10k start at my elbow and work down. I figured about 25 stings in all, not really bad, but all because of my stupidity and carelessness. However, since I sting myself, anyway for arthritis and the Melanoma, figured it for an extensive apitherapy session. Put the supers back on (part of winter management) with not one sting, and when I checked my barn where I store the old supers and frames, noticed some bees flying into old equipment. I normally have them stacked straight so there are no openings for the bees, but saw that one was slightly askew, so decided to let them clean out whatever might be there. When I checked them the next week, they were still flying in and out, but with a nice regular pattern as if it was a live colony. It was. They had set up shop in the hive bodies, so I let them be with a plan to move them this winter, when they were all settled in. Remember the old dead hive that I never broke down and stored? Well I planned to use it to replace some older, worn hive bodies and frames when my knee recovered, so I left it where it was. I have never had a swarm settle in a vacant hive, so no problem. Until today. It is alive and well and going like gangbusters. In 2001 I was awarded beekeeper of the year by our State Organization. I said then, and I have to repeat it now, that the best beekeepers have good bees. This year I was a terrible beekeeper (it is a good thing they do not ask to give back awards) but my good bees have rewarded me with five strong colonies going into the winter and I did everything wrong. I only wanted three! Am I hanging my head in shame? No. Mostly laughing at the joy of keeping such interesting creatures that continue to surprise and humble. So take heart, all of you that are new to keeping bees. It is a fun hobby in which there is something new every year, and you learn a lot from your bees (and the BeeL). Plus, bees are often, as in my case, better beekeepers than the beekeeper. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:25:54 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Predrag Cvetkovic Subject: Re: the best moment to remove yang queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar wrote: > I've seen good queen producers' websites say that they keep the young queens laying in the nucs for 3-4 weeks since this appears to extend their productive lives. Hello Waldemar Yes, it will be good if we can wait longer then a week or two. I would like to know what moment is least harmful to yang queens, that have to spend 2-3 days in cages after removing from nucs. Is it as soon as queen starts laying or a month later, for example? Concerning phacelia seeding, I am sorry to hear that it was so unsuccessful and will try to send to you again. Best regards! Predrag :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:28:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Hobby Extractor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would really like to see a sale of US goods in China. Only one problem, most of our jobs have already gone there. The ones we have left are just barely hanging on. Almost the total clothing industry has left America, from socks to hats and everything in between. Wal-mart had a slogan that "we buy American whenever we can, so you can too". This now is only a figment of their imagination. This chain store will break American plants one by one. Extractors are only one item. Just look at Reese's trailer hitch balls and related equipment, all made in China. Beekeepers complain about Chinese honey. So don't complain on one hand and then buy Chinese with the other. I know it is almost impossible to get MADE IN AMERICA in everything, but if we don't turn this around, soon we will have NO manufacturing here in the US at all. So then we could not sell them anything. Lionel North ALABAMA, USA :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:45:40 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Oxalic Acid vs. Oxalic Acid Dihydrate. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>If I recall correctly (and I know I will have help here) it is oxalic acid dihydrate, but the only difference is in how much of that to use compared to pure OA (molecular weight 126.06 for dihydrate rs 90.0 for pure OA). Add to the confusion, the dihydrate is often named oxalic acid, just like the Bondex. So, if a recipe says to use 75g of OA, and one has only the OA dihydrate, then, according to the molecular weight ratio, 105g of the dihydrate should be used? I bought my 'OA' at Ace hardware. I'll check the label to see if it's the dihydrate form. Anybody know if the dihydrate form has any side effects on bees? I seem to recall a report which mentioned that the pure or the dihydrate form worked the same. It would be good to get this confirmed. If, by some reason, the dihydrate form were inferior or unsuitable, what would be a local source for the liquid OA? Waldemar :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:33:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: What is approved Oxalic treatment in Canada? In-Reply-To: <4300C283.7010202@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Aug 15, 2005, at 12:27 PM, Bill Truesdell wrote: > For info, this is what I wrote for our State newsletter several years > ago. The research came from Europe and found that OA works best > within a > range and is harmful above that range and ineffective below it. Since > this might have changed, it is provided with caution, but it is what I > used and was effective. Remember, I wrote this for Maine Beekeepers. > Hi Bill and all I have requested permission from our Provincial Apiarist to copy his letter to the list. I haven't received an answer from him as yet. I leave for Apimondia soon and will be unable to deal with his letter until I return. By that time he will likely have issued instructions to us. Talk to you soon. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:29:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I heard at a lecture that oxalic acid and a particular affinity for iron. Thus careless use will affect the iron in the frame wires, the nails holding your hive together, and, more importantly, the iron in your bloodstream, causing anaemia. However, it does kill a lot of mites so it must be ok. Chris :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:45:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: So you think you are a good beekeeper--- In-Reply-To: <430359CC.8030304@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:37 AM 8/17/05 -0400, you wrote: > >At different times I have been asked to speak to bee clubs (one this >next weekend on getting ready for winter). I have been embarrassed, >recently, to do so because of my total absence in the bee yard. Bill, don't let that stop you. I for one will cut you all the slack you need- your past beekeeping experience is a valuable asset to the beekeeping community regardless of how many hives you have or your current involvement. I've enjoyed your contributions to this list and I'm looking forward to meeting you, finally, and listening to your presentation! See you on Saturday :) George- --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:05:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid vs. Oxalic Acid Dihydrate. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/08/05 00:05:27 GMT Daylight Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> It's the dihydride which is normally used. If you use the anhydrous stuff, it will be necessary to use less in order to avoid overdosing. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:02:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: the best moment to remove yang queen In-Reply-To: <002501c5a34b$e27329c0$4a7d89d5@predrag> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-21EF5234 > Is it as soon as queen starts laying >or a month later, for example? I am having wonderful results removing the queens soon after they begin to lay. I can see no bad effects the following summer, when these queens are in their prime. My season is too short to be waiting weeks, and besides..the mating nucs would get too strong. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 8/14/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:20:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid vs. Oxalic Acid Dihydrate. In-Reply-To: <20050817.134611.25844.34741@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: >So, if a recipe says to use 75g of OA, and one has only the OA dihydrate, then, according to the molecular weight ratio, 105g of the dihydrate should be used? > > > Which is why I asked the question on how much is used now. The solutions I posted were for the dihydrate. The problem is that OA can be either and called OA but is usually the dihydrate (which was used in the research paper I read). Unfortunately, the hardware store label might, and usually does, say Oxalic Acid even though it is usually the dihydrate. They are the same chemically, just two additional water molecules. What you want is 35 grams of OAD in a one liter 1:1 sugar solution- from the European study I read. Since the Canadian approved methods will make it here eventually, I would just stand by and wait for the word from above (the border). Especially since we are a long way away from the right time to use it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:53:01 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Acid vs. Oxalic Acid Dihydrate. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has anyone even seen anhydrous oxalic acid on sale anywhere ? - I haven't in Finland In Europe the instructions are always based on the weight of the dihydrate. Ari Finland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:04:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Spencer Redman Subject: canning honey Is there a way to can honey?? My wife and I can alot of fruit and vegetables and we were woundering if we could can the honey in the comb. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:19:38 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: The meeting in Apimondia ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi ! Several people from this list have told that they are coming to Dublin next week for Apimondia. I start my journey at Sunday. I could not figure out from previous posts how we could meet each others, or was it said somewhere clearly ? If not I would suggest a meeting on tuesday after the moring lectures at 13.10 by message board ( I am quite sure there is one). Anyone not beeing able to come, will find a note on the board if we decide to continue somewhere later. How does this sound ? Ari mobile + 358 40 73 000 15 6' 2'' tall, eyeglasses and name tag Ari Seppälä, Finnish Beekeepers Associoation. All Finns ( about 100) in Apimondia know me, so ask them if you like to meet me otherwice. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:36:18 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Acid treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris wrote > I heard at a lecture that oxalic acid and a particular affinity for iron. > Thus careless use will affect the iron in the frame wires, the nails holding > your hive together, and, more importantly, the iron in your bloodstream, causing > anaemia. Having used oxalic for 5 years, I must say that I have not seen or heard from any problems with oxalic + iron. My quess is that you would have to soak the hive in oxalic to see it. In humans the problem is not anemia, but reaction with calcium ( Ca) in bloodstream. This seems to be deadly in theory, but I have not heard any incidents even hinting for this. In Europe it is used by many different ways by thousands of beekeepers. In my eyes many misuse it dangerously. Leaking containers, spilling and vapours around hives. No personal protection whatever. But even these people stay alive and healthy. And don't even complain unless they overdose so much that they kill their bees. Real problems have been reported by spilled formic acid. All that I know can still see with their eyes, but many have lost some skin from fingers. Luckily it grows back. When you work with acids you should wear appropiate personal protection. Ari Seppälä Finland :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:02:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid vs. Oxalic Acid Dihydrate. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar asked: > So, if a recipe says to use 75g of OA, and one has only the OA dihydrate, > then, according to the molecular weight ratio, 105g of the dihydrate > should be used? My understanding is that oxalic acid is normally available as the dihydrate and that formulae given for treating varroa are based on it. I sometimes use the drip method on colonies returning from the heather moors when is is to cold for thymol. The formula I use is 35g oxalic acid dihydrate in 1 litre of 1:1 (sugar:water by weight) sugar syrup and 5ml is applied per seam of bees. There is good information here: http://www.apis.admin.ch/en/krankheiten/oxal.php Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:06:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: >I heard at a lecture that oxalic acid and a particular affinity for iron. Yes, excellent for removing rust stains. > Thus careless use will affect the iron in the frame wires, the nails > holding > your hive together Not noticed this. > and, more importantly, the iron in your bloodstream, causing > anaemia. Oxalic acid is extremely poisonous - I think that you would be dead long before suffering anaemia! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:35:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Oxalic Acid Can be Poisonous MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> and, more importantly, the iron in your bloodstream, causing >> anaemia. > > Oxalic acid is extremely poisonous - I think that you would be dead long > before suffering anaemia! Extremely poisonous? Perhaps, but personally, from what I have seen, I would say *somewhat* poisonous, and, as with all the common food and household poisons we routinely contact, inhale or ingest, the effects -- both immediate and long-term -- vary from none detectible, to serious and life-threatening, depending on the method, frequency, and degree of exposure. In small amounts, OA may even be considered non-poisonous, or even, possibly, a nutrient, I should think. We are all constantly exposed to oxalic acid and oxalates in low doses in our daily diet. I guess the question here is the amount that a beekeeper may experience in the process of treating hives and working on them after, and the method of contact. That will vary considerably, I imagine, depending on many factors, from almost none in hobby situations where extreme care is exercised, to a considerable amount in some commercial situations, particularly where beekeepers are vaporizing the acid and standing downwind. People tend to get complacent if they don't experience ill effects or die immediately, and I have seen this already with OA evaporation on several occasions. For a better understanding of oxalic acid and oxalates in our everyday diet, see http://helios.hampshire.edu/~nlNS/mompdfs/oxalicacid.pdf http://www.coljoe.com/vegetable_oxalic_acid.htm http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/Other/oxalic.html Source: http://tinyurl.com/7jxe2 allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:13:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid treatment In-Reply-To: <004501c5a3c3$602ed7c0$b5722a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > Oxalic acid is extremely poisonous - I think that you would be dead long > before suffering anaemia! A check on the toxicity of Oxalic Acid is more in line with Ari's information. Compared to Formic, it is much less harmful. Here is a site that shows the differences. OA http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0707.htm Formic http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0485.htm Another major factor is the concentration. With the OA mix you are looking at a 4% solution (Sherlock Holmes anyone) while the Formic pads are much more concentrated. However, when you look at OA being used in vaporizers, then it is dangerous, but even there, not as great as Formic, which can kill in that state. In any case, prudence is in order when working with any chemical. Interesting that the greatest chemical killer is good old H2O (it is actually the number one killer of young children- drowning). Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:25:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: The meeting in Apimondia ? In-Reply-To: <005b01c5a3b4$6f058280$be24d5d4@pomi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Ari Asks... > I could not figure out from previous posts how we could meet each > others, or was it said somewhere clearly ? A number of Irish List members are intending to meet up at 12:30 in Paddy Cullen's on the Monday. I clipped the following, which may be helpful, many of the UK contingent are staying at the UCD (University College Dublin)... **** the best place to look for pub info is here www.dublinpubscene.com, and there are some rather good boozers (as we brits say) between the RDS and Dublin city centre. I'd recommend Doheny & Nesbits (that's one pub not two) as well as O'Donoghue's - both on Baggot St. Say, how about all we who want to meet up arrange to go for lunch on the first day across the road to Paddy Cullen's? See here http://www.dublinpubscene.com/thepubs/paddycullens.html As far as I can make out, the scientific programme breaks for lunch at 12:30. Come out the front entrance of the RDS, turn left and cross the road in front of the entrance (carefully!) and it's maybe 200 yards up. **** Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 6.02 (stable) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:25:16 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid vs. Oxalic Acid Dihydrate. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>It's the dihydride which is normally used. If you use the anhydrous stuff, it will be necessary to use less in order to avoid overdosing. I have only seen/used the dihydrate. I'm glad that it was clarified that the ratios given are based on the dihydrate. Waldemar :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:32:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: canning honey Comments: cc: stredman@REMCONLINE.NET In-Reply-To: <200508180504.j7I4xEdX010468@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-133A4302 At 01:04 AM 8/18/2005, you wrote: >Is there a way to can honey?? My wife and I can alot of fruit and >vegetables and we were woundering if we could can the honey in the comb. Yes. It's commonly called chunk honey. Just fill a jar with the comb and then fill the voids with extracted honey. No special processing or sealing is needed. -Tim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/75 - Release Date: 8/17/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:33:19 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Acid treatment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Having used oxalic for 5 years, I must say that I have not seen or heard from any problems with oxalic + iron. <...> I heard that rhubarb contains oxalic acid and that its consumption should be avoided. I remember eating delicious pastries made with rhubabrd as a child... Waldemar :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:09:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Oxalic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re Rhubarb. I seem to remember that it was fine to eat the stalks but = that the leaves were poisonous. Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:25:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Sturman Subject: Attracting bees to a specific place Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I was contacted by a graphic artist in New York City to help him with an interesting project. He wants to create a film where bees land on his body and form the letters "IT". I tried this on some paper using BetterBee's BeeBoost QMP product. This didn't really work well. Talking to BB, they said that this is not really what the product was designed for (what is designed for this application? LOL). Anyway, people have suggested using just honey. I want to try honey mixed with some QMP (quuen manibular pheromone). Does anyone have any suggestions as to other ways that we can get this done? Thanks in advance. John Sturman john@bluemoonfarm.com (If you are responding to the list, please cc it directly to me at john@bluemoonfarm.com) Thanks. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:55:27 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Acid treatment MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The Rhubarb leaf is toxic, and should never be eaten. the stalks, minus the leaves, are used widely in many recipes, for jams, pies, etc. EDW :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:00:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: canning honey In-Reply-To: <200508180504.j7I4xEdX010468@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Spencer, >Is there a way to can honey?? My wife and I can alot of fruit and >vegetables and we were woundering if we could can the honey in the comb. > Any heat processing would destroy the comb. Honey needs no preservation. Just put it in the jars and keep it. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:48:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by whalen-pedersen@MCHSI.COM to = the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of = previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=3D400833CB) (72 lines) = ------------------- From: "Erik Whalen-Pedersen" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" = References: <20050818.063410.8737.43474@webmail30.nyc.untd.com> Subject: Oxalic Acid Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:27:56 -0500 Let's put some oxalic acid mythology to rest here once and for all!!! = We should also recognize that it is not approved for use in many areas. = Oxalic acid is indeed an oxidizing agent and it must be handled carefully. It = is not for human consumption. Oxalic acid dihydrate is the stable crystalline (dry, powder) form of = oxalic acid (incorporating 2 water molecules for each molecule of oxalic acid = in order to make a stable crystalline form) and thus is the form that is = most commonly available. Anhydrous (no water in the crystal) oxalic acid = could possibly be procured but has NO particular advantage over the previous = form (and it would likely be more expensive). Oxalic acid is in the LEAVES of the rhubarb plant (which are NOT = consumed). Oxalic acid is an oxidizing agent that is commonly used to "bleach" out = rust stains, for example but is not a danger if used properly. One should also consider whether this is legal and ethical to use in = their own local area as well. Off-label applications could potentially be dangerous and should not be pursued with the exception of research institutions charged to do so. Erik :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:54:05 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Fermenting/fermented honey In-Reply-To: <4304F6DC.2010303@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all! I've got several hundred pounds of banana blossom honey that appears to be fermenting (long story). I'm thinking mead, but don't know how to determine if the honey's too far gone. It looks OK, tastes kinda sharp. It looks normal until it's poured from one bucket to another, then it foams quite a bit. Any suggestions? Thanks, Howard :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:06:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid Can be Poisonous MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "allen dick" wrote of oxalic acid > Extremely poisonous? >=20 > Perhaps, but personally, from what I have seen, I would say *somewhat* > poisonous...In small amounts, OA may even be considered non-poisonous, = or even, possibly, a > nutrient, I should think. Define somewhat! (and I think that I can find more palatable and safer = nutrients) OK - maybe not 'extremely', but this certainly a dangerous chemical. = Whilst the ingestion of a lethal dose of around 5g-15g (below) would = perhaps be unlikely (it has a very bitter taste) the fact that it can = cause serious damage by inhalation or absorption through the skin makes = it a substance that we should handle with great respect. Clearly in = terms of safety for the operator, dripping a weak solution is much safer = than spraying it (unless you are wearing serious protetctive gear) and = either of these methods is much safer than vaporising. As far as oxalic acid in food is concerned, I think that we need to = distinguish between oxalic acid and oxalates, as we would for example = between concentrated nitric acid and nitrates - there is a considerable = difference in their effects on the human body! It is also true that, = whilst oxalic acid is a single substance (which may be in the anhyhrous = or dihydrate forms), there is a whole range of oxalates, some of which = soluble whilst others are not. A few more quotes from websites: http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0707.htm OCCUPATIONAL EXPOSURE LIMITS:=20 TLV: 1 mg/m^3; STEL: 2 mg/m^3 (ACGIH 1997-1998). EFFECTS OF SHORT-TERM EXPOSURE:=20 The aerosol is corrosive to the eyes and the skin. Exposure could cause = anorexia, salivation and nasal discharge with progressive weakness, = respiratory distress and collapse. EFFECTS OF LONG-TERM OR REPEATED EXPOSURE:=20 The substance may have effects on the renal, cardiac, thyroid and = nervous tissues, resulting in organ disturbances. http://iilg.org/lkb/articles/faq118.html VERY TOXIC, CORROSIVE POISON. http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6044.htm Inhalation:=20 Harmful if inhaled. Can cause severe irritation and burns of nose, = throat, and respiratory tract.=20 Ingestion:=20 Toxic! May cause burns, nausea, severe gastroenteritis and vomiting, = shock and convulsions. May cause renal damage, as evidenced by bloody = urine. Estimate fatal dose is 5 to 15 grams. http://www.iguanaden.com/diet/oxalic.htm Oxalic acids bind with needed nutrients and pretty much makes the needed = nutrients inaccessible to the body. The main nutrient that seems to be = depleted is calcium. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 06:50:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: road kill bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I received the following from a friend. Comments anyone? =20 "I'm thinking of getting involved with some efforts here in Indiana to = get more interesting stuff planted along our state highways. I want to recommend some bumblebee plants. However, it occurs to me that perhaps attracting bees to the sides of freeways will only get them hit by cars. Do you know of any literature or just people's personal experience with this? I would imagine that beekeepers who have bees foraging near highways would know whether there is a lot of mortality or not." =20 Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:41:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Beekeeping Info Help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, I have been asked to give two presentations regarding beekeeping during a two day energy festival. You may be thinking, as I did when asked," What does beekeeping have to do with energy?". The festival will be covering a wide range of topics from running your Mercedes on French fry oil to having a dairy goat as your source of milk. The audience will be nonbeekeepers. One of my topics will be on the value of honeybees/beekeeping to agriculture and the environment. I will be developing a power point presentation and probably have more than enough information. However, I really don't have any handouts. I will have an information table set up during the festival and would like to be able to give out information. I am not getting a fee for the presentations (normally I do charge, as my time is valuable to me). I was asked as a favor because it is the first year of the festival. So if anyone knows where I can get information handouts either free or relatively inexpensive I would appreciate the tip. I don't want to make copies so what I am looking for is preprinted materials in quantity. I know there are recipe cards and the like, but I am more interested in providing information to promote the value of honeybees and beekeeping. You never know, passing on knowledge now may prevent a petition or ordinance down the road preventing someone from keeping bees. So as not to fill the list and everyone's mailboxes with replies please send them directly to this email : beeguy6@hotmail.com Please don't send them to the email address associated with my subscription the BeeL list. Later I will post to the list one message with all the sources sent to me. Thanks in advance. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA P.S. If anyone is interested in the festival here is the website: http://www.paenergyfest.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:49:31 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Acid treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I heard that rhubarb contains oxalic acid and that its consumption should be avoided. I remember eating delicious pastries made with rhubabrd as a child... We still eat it, and it's really good. Health recomendation here is that you should drink milk with rhubarb in food. Calcium in milk netralises oxalic in rhubarb. I have nothing against this recomendation as cold milk goes along well with rhubarb. Ari Seppälä :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:52:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Acid treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/08/05 15:28:16 GMT Daylight Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> Rhubarb stems are fine; it's usual to peel the skin off but I'm not sure whether this contains oxalic or whether it's just fibrous. It's the leaves that should be avoided. There were cases, I believe fatal in some cases, of oxalic poisoning when people experimented with the leaves as a vegetable during WWII. I grow a lot of rhubarb on my allotment, eat it to excess in its season, and none of my family have ever suffered as a result. I'm sure others on the list could say the same! Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:18:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Acid treatment In-Reply-To: <20050818.063410.8737.43474@webmail30.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: >I heard that rhubarb contains oxalic acid and that its consumption should be avoided. I remember eating delicious pastries made with rhubabrd as a child... > > The leaves, not the stalks. The stalks are what you eat after cooking and adding 10,000 lbs of sugar per stalk. Got lots of it by our garage (and around the county at relatives houses). Wife loves it and I give a lot away (as quickly as possible). Speaking of sweeteners, we have highbush cranberry by the house. It is so sour that the birds fail to eat the berries until starvation is imminent. I once asked if jam could be made from it. The answer from an old time Mainer- "Ayuh (Maine talk for yes), you can make jam out of anything if you add enough sugar." Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:28:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Oxalic acid again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>adding 10,000 lbs of sugar per stalk.<<<<< Bill, You gave me the best laugh of the day. Still I remember as a boy = (WW2 was on) cutting a stalk out of the bunch and going on my way = chewing on it. Nobody saw this so I'd guess I wasn't trying to prove = anything. On the dangers of Oxalic acid sublimation. I treated 20 colonies last year with the battery powered electric = vaporizer. Mite counts went from 20 a day to almost 200 when I started. = I began with gloves and a top of the line respirator. By the time I was = finished I decided that was overkill. Noticing the direction of the = wind, one slides the little wand into the hive entrance and closes the = hive with a towel or a piece of foam rubber. (Fumes stay inside and = disperse quickly). Then the power is connected for 60 to 90 seconds. = Then I sneak the heater out after a minute or so. leaving the hive = closed for another 20. A quick sponge will cool the unit down. Adding = O/A to a hot tool is a no-no. Then I go on to the next. I did 3 treatments a week apart. With the = sticky board you can watch the mites fall off.=20 I didn't exactly get a whiff of it but at times there can be a = sensation of having your nose run when you know you didn't have a cold = when you started. I think this ammonia-like property would have you = moving out before it could hurt you. Still, I don't think I'd want to = trust the job to the hired help. In a commercial run you could do a = number of hives at the same time. The bees carp a little at being cooped = up but don't seem to notice any fumes. They don't boil out at all. PS = the hive with a daily drop of 200 survived! Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:55:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: FW: road kill bees? In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092110C5FB@UAEXCH.univ.albany. edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:50 AM 8/19/05 -0400, you wrote: > >However, it occurs to me that perhaps attracting bees to the sides of >freeways will only get them hit by cars. > It's a risk they gotta take. Where I live, we need all the forage we can get and having someone else foot the bill for suitable plantings is a great idea, even if it's in a dubious location. I've watched a lot of bees on the clover, vetch, and other weeds this summer on the side of my road. Cars and trucks going by at speed push a lot of air and the bees and the flowers get well buffeted- I've seen bees actually knocked off a blossom. They come right back. Invariably, some bees will get hit when crossing the road. I'm not aware of any studies of colony losses due to road kill, probably because nobody reports collisions with bees. Moose yes. Bees, no. I've certainly thought about it but never had an opporunity to voice my conclusions till now! I suspect I lose more bees to dragon flies in my apiary than I do to road kill. The value of the forage outweighs the risks IMHO- the same goes for milkweed- a valuable nectar producer, but how many bees get hobbled by pollinia and never make it back to the hive? Is it worth it? I think so! For that matter, I recall reading in ABC XYZ a short item speculating about bee fatalities due to them flying into overhead power and telephone lines (apparently the poles themselves pose no valid threat). No conclusion was reached by the author. Perhaps in areas with large amounts of roadside forage we should put up "Slow Bees Working" or "Bees Crossing" signs to slow down motorists. They'd probably have no effect however- people don't slow down for slow children playing or hiding driveways, why brake for bees? George- I brake for bees! --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:15:56 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland & Dorothy Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: Oxalic acid/rhubarb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In some areas,rhubarb plant (Rheum rhabarbarum) is also known as "pie plant". A member of the buckwheat family, rhubarb has big, heart-shaped, crinkled leaves and red-tinted stalks. It will send up a stalk which will bear seeds, which I am told will not reproduce true to variety, of which there are sevral popular ones.  I can't recall seeing anything 'working' the plants, but then I haven't been growing it for several years, nor thinking about pollination when I did. Usually propagated by root divisions. Requires some cold weather, and apparently does not do well in dry, hot climates.
Rhubarb also found in the dictionary as a  heated dispute or controversy, especially in baseball.
Typically very tart, and needs sweetning for most people. I prefer to cook it, let it cool some, and then add honey.

So there is rhubarb's bee connection.

Leland Hubbell


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:06:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Apistan after 4 years MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Beekeeping history from fifteen years ago (perhaps before many on the list even had hives). Apistan (fluvalinate) saved the beekeeping industries of Europe & the U.S.. Before Apistan was registered the only method of saving hives was illegal concoctions and usually found on the internet (and used by many). So many hives were crashing bee inspectors looked away. Over half the commercial hives crashed in the U.S.. Many said they would never put a chemical strip in a hive. They were totally wiped out! Apistan (fluvaliante) turned the tide exactly like it did in Europe (and our European friends said it would). Those which stood by and did no varroa control attempts (many commercial beekeepers waiting for a miracle treatment other than Apistan promised by researchers at the time) had to buy thousands of package bees from those which had used Apistan to get back in business (if they did not quit like many even third & fourth generation beekeeping families). Apistan is worthless in our area and has been for around five years. Two commercial beekeepers tried to return last year and lost all their hives. I used both strips years ago but will not again as both contaminated wax and the brood comb needed changed (my opinion and from testing). I did lose half my hives twice but would have lost all if not for the strips. Dead hives do not pollinate or produce honey! I have spent weeks cleaning out varroa deadouts years ago. Not fun! Easy for people to put down strips now! I assure the list not one treatment talked about on bee lists will ever provide the varroa control Apistan & checkmite (98% plus) did when released! The value of the honey bee today in the U.S. is in pollination! Our food supply depends on those hives! The fact that a hobby beekeeper has lost all his hives will not raise eyebrows in Washington. if honey is not available for their toast they will use jam or imitation honey. I make no excuse for our use of strips. We did what we had to do to save an industry! Less contamination methods are around *now* but the strips made beekeeping easy! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:44:46 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Acid treatment MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT High bush cranberry makes delicious jelly. Follow any favorite recipe you might use for crab apples. There is plenty of pectin in the fruit. Be warned that the smell of the boiling fruit is not pleasant. This is NOT a measure of the quality of the end product. Great with meat, wherever you would use a jelly. Re Rhubarb (again) There are actually quite a few named varieties of this plant. The color varies from a deep green , through all shades of pink, to almost beet red. The deeper the red color, the better flavor and the less sugar needed. Only the very green varieties need be peeled. It becomes quite tough late in the season, so the first week or two in early spring produces the best quality. It can be cleaned, chopped and frozen, (do not add sugar until you are ready to use it) and keeps very well. Nothing like a bit of fresh rhubarb sauce, sharp cheese and fresh bread, in mid winter!! EDW > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:59:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Acid treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ari Seppälä wrote: > Health recomendation here is that you should drink milk with rhubarb in > food. Calcium in milk netralises oxalic in rhubarb. Try rhubarb crumble and cream! Even better if you add a little fresh ginger to the rhubarb. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:14:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>A similar saying could be said about AHB in Texas, Florida and = southern California.<<<<=20 ....And most recently in La. also Utah. Many truckloads of packages come = from those southern states to my part of the world (CT). I got one this = spring I had to destroy, so it's not going to be limited to anywhere. = I'm not shaking in my boots either but I'll quit because I don't have a = yard that is isolated enough. Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:56:18 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Predrag Cvetkovic Subject: Re: the best moment to remove yang queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike wrote: > I am having wonderful results removing the queens soon after they begin to > lay. I can see no bad effects the following summer, when these queens are > in their prime. Hello Mike Thanks for your comments. This season I have noticed something unusual with new queens after removing them and leaving in cages for 2-4 days. Results were less than expected or less then I am used to. But I don't believe that it is due to removing them too soon. The whole year was a mess. Thanks again Best regards Predrag :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:11:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: ABF Faxline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anybody here subscribe to the ABF Honey Market Faxline? I notice it is $90/yr, and am wondering how much info a person gets for that money. I don't care for faxes, but see it is also available by email in PDF form. This reminded me, and I called the Mid-US hotline just now. The report two loads sold recently from South Dakota and Colorado for 80 and 85c, plus word of a packer in the Mid-West offering 84. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:08:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard A Cartwright Subject: Re: Minimizing bee-beards In-Reply-To: <200508170125.j7H1PTPW014131@smtp.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Bob said...... "In regard to minimizing bee beards, here's something I have had pretty good success with here in hot humid Alabama. Sprits the bee beard with ice water. It seems to have a similar effect to the old farm nights when you sat on the front porch to keep cool BUT if a sudden cool rain storm blew up, you went inside! May not work for everyone, but it works pretty good for me." Bob Fanning I'm grateful for all the suggestions for minimizing bee beards. I placed screened bottoms and tops on each hive last night, and it helped quite a bit. This morning there were limited bees on the hive fronts; nothing a little smoke couldn't take care of (maybe a spritz of ice water would have worked even better). The only problem was a large mass of bees clinging to the outside of the bottom screen. I'm wondering if they congregated there to minimize the amount of airflow through the hive (chimney effect); or was it just a coincidence that a few bees found the screen and began 'nasenoffing' to attract the rest. Successful move............hoping for a good goldenrod flow! Dick Cartwright Stony Brook, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:06:10 -0600 Reply-To: M Westall Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: M Westall Subject: Re: Get bees out of a barrel? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to a question on capturing barrel bees originated by Milt Lathan, J. Waggle wrote >> suggested that a 'no-pest-strip' be placed 'near' >> the entrance. They >> tried it and the bees absconded after a couple days > > I strongly disapprove of the above!!! > I am a licensed pesticide applicator here in PA. I DO > know that 'in this state', it is illegal to use > pesticide in a manner that is not in accordance with Where are the 'pesticide police' when you need them? J., while your attitude in protecting bees is appreciated there's of course no teeth to protection of honeybees -- though supposedly 'protected' in most states. People should save bees because it's simply the right thing to do. There are more pesticide applicators which choose to make money killing bees than sending business to someone whom might save them. Thankfully there are pesticide outfits that will go out of their way to find beekeepers -IF- they can find one willing to remove beehives from structures. For those that are interested in a few challenges in removing hives THE best place to start is thumbing through the yellow pages and give the various pest outfits a ring. If you end up charging for your services in removing bees, remember the outfit that referred you either by $$ or honey as they're taking food off their plate to help you save bees. My recommendation? I'm with J. -- stay away from toying with the no-pest strip as you're bound to run into an unwanted consequence if you're trying to take the bees alive. Whiskey barrels are a 'tension' fit with grooved tops & bottoms which make it tough(impossible?) to 'pop' out the top or bottom without releasing tension held by the metal straps. The good news is the straps and barrel can easily be disassembled just by pulling off the straps, depending on how well the barrel is strapped. The bad news is every barrel is like a house of cards -- take off the tension & watch it collapse. This is all direct experience as I've removed bees from an old whiskey barrel before. What my advantage was on that job was the barrel was 100+ years old and the top/bottom were rotted out, making it easy to pull up the entire hive. Suggestion? (1) Mark the barrel pieces at one end so you know EXACTLY how to put it back together. (2) Use a bunch of duct tape & wind it round & round the barrel. (3) Pull off the straps, or at least the ones closest to the top --- or bottom if you prefer to flip it over & work from there... which might be the easiest. (4) Then you should have released enough tension to pry out the top or bottom. The tape should keep everything from falling inward. Be aware that if the hive is new, say newer than 3 months, any jostling will likely send the comb(s) crashing to the bottom of the barrel killing bees & queen. New, natural wax comb is very, very soft. One year old+ hives are better braced & easier to remove. Matthew Westall - EBees - Castle Rock, CO - where we started & finished with fantastic rain this season-- but all dry inbetween stunting the growth of plants; so ~average year despite all the water. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:36:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Get bees out of a barrel? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mr M wrote me off list, > Where are the 'pesticide police' when you need them? > J., while your attitude in protecting bees is > appreciated there's of course > no teeth to protection of honeybees -- though > supposedly 'protected' in most > states.... Dear Mr M, In this instance my comment is NOT meant to convey my love or "attitude in protecting bees". But instead to bring attention to those on the list that may be foolish enough to try this, that this is illegal and that there may be consequences to human health, contamination or harm to non target insects when you misuse pesticides. Misuse of pesticides is a mater I take very seriously. I have noticed a frightening eagerness for beekeepers to rush to "squirt" any thing into a bee hive that is recommend on these lists, and this sickens me. I have 23 years experience working with pesticides, I know the dangers involved and can loose my license or face severe penalty of law if I misuse these things. I need to produce proof of license before I can purchase these dangerous chemicals. BUT, a homeowner can walk into any hardware store and buy the exact same thing contained in a can of raid, and squirt it around without training or license. People need to know that even though you can buy these things in the store, or they are recomended on these lists, they can be very dangerous if not used in accordance with the labled instructions. Joe ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:57:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Subject Headers In-Reply-To: <004601c5a4d4$ed491960$9216de18@apartment> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've seen a lot of topics covered under replies to subjects not even related to what's currently being discussed. Doesn't take too much effort to change the "Subject: Title". Would give me a 'heads up' about what's going to be covered in the text of the message. Not a big problem for me but does twinge my irritation button 'jist a tidge'. Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:33:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So the AHB is in what part of Utah? Where are you located Dick? Did they arrive there from pollination services? Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:56:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: FW: road kill bees? In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092110C5FB@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, Having a few apiaries situated 50 metres plus a little from different highways, my observations are that there is a noticeable passage of bees crossing esp. during nectar flows. They (the bees) fly a varying heights depending on meteo. conditions. Locals have commented on seeing bees but mention that few finish up with their behinds compressing their brains against the windshield! Losses - presume so, but not to any noticeable extent. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:29:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Acid treatment In-Reply-To: <004601c5a4d4$ed491960$9216de18@apartment> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed if we are going to discuss rhubard and the oxalic acid in the leaves. is there a way to use the leaves to deter the mites using the rhubarb david :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:42:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: AHB distribution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This site is pretty good for keeping up to date.=20 http://www.stingshield.com/all-us.htm >>>"The AHB is now established in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Southern = California and southern Nevada. Recent citations note that the AHB is = now established in southern Utah as well."<<< See below for more. http://www.cals.ncsu.edu:8050/entomology/apiculture/PDF%20files/ahbaction= plan2001.pdf Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:01:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Subject Headers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've seen a lot of topics covered under replies to > subjects not even related to what's currently being > discussed. Doesn't take too much effort to change the > "Subject: Title". Checking all headers before sending is a wise practice, generally. The subject line should reflect the topic, but, even more importantly, the "To:" line should point to the intended recipient. Some software has a bad habit of guessing, and also of showing only the name, hiding the actual email address of the person named. This can result in lost email at best, and at worst, serious and enduring embarrassment. Moreover, in BEE-L's case, depending on the writer and the configuration of various software at the sender, the LISTSERV, and the recipient, replies initiated by hitting the 'Reply" button may, somewhat randomly it seems, actually be addressed to the original writer only, or to the entire list. Therefore, when replying to BEE-L posts, it pays to be sure to check all the headers every time. Generally, replies should be addressed to the entire list, so all can share and comment, but, occasionally, it is more appropriate to write directly to the sender. In either case, it pays to check, so that your carefully researched, written and edited reply, intended for the discussion, does not go only to one person, and also to make sure that a personal message, of interest only to one person, does not go to the entire list. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:50:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic Acid treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/08/05 15:17:22 GMT Daylight Time, flathman@HOTMAIL.COM writes: <> The problem here would be getting a reliable dose, as I imagine the concentration would vary considerably, and you have to kill the mites without killing the bees as well.. Since the pure chemical is available fairly cheaply, it wouldn't be worth the hassle and uncertainty. If you just want to kill insects, an infusion of rhubarb leaves does make an effective traditional insecticide, though it's illegal nowadays in the UK. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:22:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Oxalic acid again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick and all, Where do you find the battery powered electric vaporizer? If you want to reply off the list, smoothevan@aol.com Lionel :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:13:19 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But, why are you still only discussing the application and application methods of chemicals? You guys seem to refuse to think about and discus here the cleaner ways, with possibly the application of drone removal schemes and small cell beekeeping. Your attitude as observed by me is: It can only be any good and we will only try and use it if it comes from a chemical plant. A bit like: If we don't come back from a doctor visit without a pot of pills, the whole visit must have been useless. Why are you so desperately supporting the chemical industry? So I repeat myself by advising: don't grab that bottle with acid where drone removal schemes and small cell beekeeping can do the same for you. With all the substances available so far and gained experience with them we know that we are not going to really win from the Varroa mite, no method or chemical has ever succeeded to get rid of the mites while at the same time keep our propolis, honey, wax, pollen and bees healthy, so at least take the cleanest alternatives available! Worth discussing? Ron van Mierlo :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:33:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Oxalic Vaporizer In-Reply-To: <003e01c5a5a3$5c696330$69d8d618@D98T9541> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-474B26E4 > Where do you find the battery powered electric vaporizer? http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/Vaporizer.htm Read the whole web site Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.13/78 - Release Date: 8/19/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:49:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: The honeybee "dance language" (DL) controversy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, to those interested, I have just come across another "proof" for the existence of the honeybee= =20 DL that I did not know about. The "proof" was published by Wehner, R.,=20 Stulzer, W. & Obrist, M. (1985). *Experientia *, 41: 1223. I was able to obtain from Wehner's office a reprint of that publication,= =20 which turns out to be only half a page long. The authors claim: "Here we=20 show that honeybees really use the spatial information encoded in the=20 direction and velocity of the waggle dance." The authors made the foragers= =20 provide misdirected information indicating another site than the one the=20 foragers were visiting. According to the report recruits arrived at both=20 sites. The report, however, provides no data whatsoever about the location= =20 of any of the sites, or the number of recruits that arrived at each site.= =20 The absent data, therefore, can not in any way confirm the authors' claim= =20 that recruits that arrived at the site indicated by the misdirected=20 information actually used that information. This is obviously so, simply=20 because even according to the DL hypothesis recruits are often expected to= =20 arrive also at other sites than those indicated by their foragers, even whe= n=20 the foragers provide correct DL information.=20 Initially I suspected that the half page I had received was just an=20 abstract of a far more detailed report. Wehner, however explained that what= =20 I had eceived was the full report, and that the report was based only on=20 preliminary tests, which were not pursued any further. He stressed,=20 nonetheless, that: "It would be really promising, if one were to continue= =20 these experimental approaches, because I am completely convinced that the= =20 result would be the one we deduced from the preliminary experiments."=20 In other words, the report provides no evidence whatsoever for the authors= '=20 claim, but Wehner is fully convinced that the missing evidence would be=20 materialise, if the experiments were only to be pursued further; which the= =20 authors did not do.=20 The authors' utterly unsubstantiated claim is, however, already cited as a= =20 fully substantiated claim, by Tautz & Sandeman (2003). in *J. comp.=20 Physiol.;* which is, in turn, cited in the radar-tracking study by Riley et= =20 al. (2005) *Nature* (May, 12); which is how I found the *Experientia*publication by Wehner et al. The case is interesting only because it illustrates the incredible tricks= =20 that what Thomas Kuhn called "paradigm hold", can play on the minds of=20 staunch DL supporters. Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear")=20 --=20 Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:37:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Oxalic acid again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by beehive44uk@YAHOO.CO.UK to the = BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of = previously posted material. Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:03:57 +0100 (BST) From: RICHARD MORAN Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Oxalic acid again To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology = In-Reply-To: 003e01c5a5a3$5c696330$69d8d618@D98T9541 Lionel, This type of heavy duty evaporator comes ready to use, The Canadion version has no cables or battery clips.=20 http://www.swienty.com/default.asp?pid=3D1&id=3D115845=20 Best of Luck. Richie :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:42:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jack Rath Subject: Varroa treatment threshholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good morning, i am looking for opinions on threshold levels at which varroa = treatment should be instituted immediately and at what level one can = wait until the end of honey flow. I pulled honey yesterday and checked = hives for varroa using the sugar roll. Infection rate ranged from 0 to = 3 percent. I have some buckwheat in full bloom and would like to wait = on pulling the remaining supers until the flow finishes up. There is = still much brood in the broodnests. A search on treatment threshholds = gives widely different levels at which to treat. A Nebraska site = suggests treating immediately at 3% while a Canadian site suggests at = incidence levels below 10% I could wait. Thanks for the help. Jack Jack Rath 690 Heatherington Rd West Pawlet, VT 05775 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:52:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid-the chemical industry In-Reply-To: <005901c5a5d4$6f3548e0$c72465d5@roneefje> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron/Eefje van Mierlo wrote: > But, why are you still only discussing the application and application > methods of chemicals? Because OA is an approved use in many countries and it works. > Your attitude as observed by me is: > It can only be any good and we will only try and use it if it comes > from a chemical plant. Actually, if you look through the archives you will find many of those who recently posted about Apistan and OA are in the forefront of non-chemical beekeeping. Just look at any of Allen Dicks, Bob Harrisons and my posts. The desire is for non-chemical beekeeping. > Why are you so desperately supporting the chemical industry? > I have stock in the wood bleach industry. Intend to become rich when everyone buys wood bleach.(Just kidding but I could not resist.) > so at least take the cleanest alternatives available! Since both OA and Formic Acid occur naturally in honey, how should we go about removing them from honey? Plus, neither OA or Formic seems to be around in any concentrations greater than naturally occurring 30 days after application. So it is probably the "cleanest" of the mite treatments. Cannot say that about thymol, which many "natural" beekeepers use, since "thyme is a natural plant so thymol is a natural product"- straight from the chemical industry. Thymol is actually more dangerous than OA in the concentrations used yet is championed by natural beekeepers. This seems to be a consistent in the organic movement. Unnatural natural pesticides are fine as long as they come from nature. Forget that you will not find those concentrations in nature. I was a member of one of the most influential State organic groups in the US and the stuff that was legal for organic use was often more dangerous than the pesticides bought at the local garden store. But it was "natural". Many in the movement agreed with me, but recognized that much of the movement is a faith and had little use for science or reality. > Worth discussing? Most of us have been there and done that (and, obviously still doing that). The whole issue of chemical/natural has been vigorously discussed here on the BeeL including small cell beekeeping (where are you now Dennis?). The larger problem with most natural beekeeping is the lack of good scientific studies; reproducibility in all climate zones and all bee races; labor intensive, such as drone cell trapping or multiple applications; and not as effective as approved chemicals. If small cells are the answer, they would have been accepted throughout the industry, but I have yet to see a good northern study except those conducted by Dennis M. and even he would agree that they are not as rigorous as a well funded study. (I have used small cell, but 5.0. They seemed to work for a while.) It goes without saying that all beekeepers want to reduce or eliminate all treatments. I think you will find we are all kindred spirits here. My problem is that many who have touted natural methods are not keeping bees anymore for obvious reasons, but new ones arise to play the same seductive pipe. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:14:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Oxalic acid again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>This type of heavy duty evaporator comes ready to use, The Canadian version has no cables or battery clips. <<<< I looked at this. Cables don't cost much even if the Shaw version = doesn't have them. I wouldn't want to pay the extra postage as cables = would be bigger than the unit, which fits into a heavy envelope. The = Canadian version is $70 US. Just for giggles, would someone interpret = the cost of the below vaporizer? It's one consequence of the weak = dollar. http://www.swienty.com/default.asp?pid=3D1&id=3D115845=20 Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:45:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Varroa treatment threshholds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by rubes@INFOSTATIONS.COM to the = BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of = previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=3D594EFC9B) (78 lines) = ------------------- Message-ID: <15aa01c5a64b$520674c0$41815142@D7DNF821> From: "Mike & Janet Brisson" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" = References: <008b01c5a645$7dd14c70$53973f94@mules> Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Varroa treatment threshholds Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:24:46 -0700 Hi, you might want to try using powdered sugar at this point to knock = down your mites. Its a great non-toxic method that can be used between honey flows. People are using it during their honey flows, if they have a bad infestation, but we haven't had to do that yet. I have pictures and instructions on our website, www:countryrubes.com. I have been using it = as a treatment each time I've pulled our honey this year, plus once in the spring. You need to do it 3 times, 7 days apart. Pour 1/2 pound or 2 = cups of powdered sugar on top of the frames of the upper brood nest (don't = take apart your supers). Make sure you have something to catch the sugar on = top of your bottom board. Without screen boards, you should probably clean = that extra board twice, since the sugar doesn't kill the mites, just knocks = them down. Remove it once within an hour and reinsert it. Remove it again = the next day. If you have a screen board you can wait 24 hours to remove = the sugar. After 24 hours, the sugar hardens up and the mites just walk = over it. We discard the sugar in plastic bags and lay them in the sun to = destroy the mites. This does not get into your honey and its does not hurt your brood or queens and its amazing at the number of mites it knocks off the bees. = There is a forum going on beesource.com http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=3Dget_topic;f=3D= 3;t=3D000481 where a lot of people who are using it are describing their success. Hope this helps. Janet :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:14:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruth Rosin Subject: G-mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I have many free invites to G-mail to give away. If interested, contact me= . --=20 Sincerely, Ruth Rosin ("prickly pear") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:59:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Excessive Quotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi folks. =20 I simply don't know how to get this point across.=20 =20 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you = must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make = your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts = will be rejected without comment or notice. =20 I will no longer edit posts to remove excessive quotes. If a = submission containns excessive quotes it will die in my in basket. =20 Sincerely, Aaron Morris BEE-L Owner/Editor/Moderatot/Janitor/Slave :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:19:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Oxalic Acid-the chemical industry minus Small Cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, > It goes without saying that all beekeepers want to reduce or eliminate > all treatments. I think you will find we are all kindred spirits here. > My problem is that many who have touted natural methods are not keeping > bees anymore for obvious reasons, but new ones arise to play the same > seductive pipe. > We are obviously not as kindred a spirit as you think. They do not always pipe on this pipeline. Just because they do not pipe on this pipeline does mean they no longer are keeping bees. They tier of their observations and conclusions falling on deaf ears. There are other pipelines where SC and alternative beekeeping methods (ABM) is discussed respectfully. Their are many, many beekeepers working on and keeping bees using SC and ABM. Natural cell size usage, Natural nutrition, Natural breeding and Natural mating using no other alternative to alter or skew results will lead to the success that the whole industry is wishing for. It is already happening, but these beekeepers are falling on deaf ears presently and this pipeline is, for the most part, not ready to hear of their success. They have tried and were shut up and put out. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:08:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Oxalic acid/ Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith, I've been reading this and other lists for years.(Only just started = talking) I have never in 5 years had a harsh chemical in my hives. Last = year I began with O/A. I have followed your opinions and usually like = them. I think today though you are throwing the baby out with the bath = water. I actually felt the same as you once. I faulted this list for = being skeptical of FGMO. After 3 years I am now skeptical also. I wish I = had listened. I passed out a lot of small cell this (and last) year. = Usually the bees (Packages) drew out drone comb. I'll keep at it. I'm = becoming skeptical.=20 There are as you say many 'keepers that use IPM and avoid the = harsher chemicals. If you are reading this list stand up and be counted = fellows and girls. Honk if you never used Apistan or Checkmite. I've looked in on the other sites. It's too easy to talk about = stuff that is marginal when no-one contradicts you. Here on this list = people will call you to task if you say something that doesn't hold up. = That is a good environment to grow in.=20 "Natural nutrition" caught my eye. I presume that to mean no = substitute pollen patties. How do you do that? Collect and freeze pollen? Feed it back? =20 Dick Marron=20 =20 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 14:03:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid-the chemical industry minus Small Cell In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Malone writes: Just because they do not pipe on this pipeline does mean they no longer are keeping bees. They tier of their observations and conclusions falling on deaf ears. Amen! Though most of still "lurk" behind the scenes. Grant One of those kind of beekeepers who prefers to lurk rather than post. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:29:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Oxalic acid/ Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How often has it been said “don’t use chemicals; use ipm”? Ipm or ‘integrated pest management’, to my understanding, began to be looked at and talked about when Apistan started to lose it effectiveness. Beekeepers were advised to integrate different mite control measures, including Apistan and CheckMite with formic acid, essential oils, etc. In fact when the concept first began being discussed some quipped that it really meant ‘integrated pesticide management’. Now it seems to have taken on another meaning--a bit like Spam® and spam. Many think ipm means to avoid any chemical altogether and substitute powdered sugar, screened bottom boards, drone trapping, etc. While that all sounds good and some of those do work to an extent, some have been seen to have little effect. One of the reasons, it is claimed, mites became resistant to Apistan is that beekeepers were overusing the strips. That may or may not be. On at least one other discussion group the use of Mavrik® along with instructions on how to use it has been openly discussed a couple of times within the past year. I’d be more likely to believe fluvalinate tolerance developed as quickly as it did because of that practice, but then that’s another story. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:41:59 -0400 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> It goes without saying that all beekeepers want to reduce or eliminate >> all treatments. I think you will find we are all kindred spirits here. >> My problem is that many who have touted natural methods are not >> keeping bees anymore for obvious reasons, but new ones arise to play >> the same seductive pipe. > >It is already happening, but these beekeepers are falling on deaf ears presently and this pipeline is, >for the most part, not ready to hear of their success. They have tried and were shut up and put out. Keith is right. We as a group haven't gone anywhere and collectively our bees are getting stronger and more numerous each season. Not sure where this fellow got the idea that all our bees died. It is frustrating to hear of alternative beekeeping being looked down upon, with arguments like "if your kids were sick" or "if you had cancer". Its not the same thing, not even remotely. Its frustrating too because it is called "alternative beekeeping". Funny, but it's the way bees were kept long ago, why is it alternative all of a sudden. Its like how honey is being called a healthy alternativce to sugar and HFCS. There are more and more chem free beekeepers free from the whole spectrum from apistan and checkmite all the way to freedom from formic and oxalix acids and essential oils also. As a group we all just keep bees. Some of us are even more strict that the rest and the only things put inside a hive are strictly bees, not even foundation. Yes most of us have given up talking about it. I still speak up once in a while. Dee still speaks up once in a while, and Keith obviously has just spoken up, but for the most part you don't hear from us much anymore. Just as Kieth has pointed out, you get tired of no one listening and throwing erroneous excuses and reasons for refusing to, such as "no data or study" "Where is the proof?", or "Do you take tylenol?" Probably the hardest thing to consider is that the people that general choose natural beekeeping are the least like to record statistics for you. We arent' scientists, obviously because the scientists are the ones pushing the "fixes". We just decided to go for it, and hey so far it works. Some people get lucky right out of the gate, and some people have a hard time for the 1st couple of seasons, but ultimately except for the few who dropped out the 1st year, we are all going strong and amazed at our bees' vigor. For new beekeepers the choice is easy financially. Chems cost money. For the entrenched commercial beekeeper, yes the financial choice can bee harder. It is VERY possible to loose your entire livestock in one year, that's devistating. I understand it, though if your business is going to die anyway, what's the difference?? Bottom line is we are still here, and the proof for us is that we are AND strong too. Too bad no one wants us around or hear our story. Guess it's time to go back to keeping quiet so I don't sound like a fool amidst y'all. Whether quiet or loud, we are all still here. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, FL USA http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ mailto:scot@linuxfromscratch.org . ` , ` ' .,';`,. ``. '. _/^\_ :;.,';`'.,` `., ' '`, /_____\ .:.,"'` /\_____/\ .,:`'" \###/.,';` :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:59:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Melitagora Subject: Resistance of mites to contact acaricides In-Reply-To: <001b01c5a684$c1f46380$d473fc53@DHTRP81J> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen says: "One of the reasons, it is claimed, mites became resistant to Apistan is that beekeepers were overusing the strips." Few years before it was published in one of American bee journals, I learned about the method for testing of resistance to contact acaricides from scientists at German beekeeping institutes. (The metod is simple: just extract some varoa from brood (drone) and drop it to walk one minute on antivaroa strip. They should be dead in short time - if no present resistance, or some of them will be showing sings of life (partial paralyses) if they are in process of becoming resistant, or will be totally alive - if resistance is big.) In my country (Macedonia) we have had a lot experience with resistance, because we have had it 15 years ago with amitraz and after that we learned to exchange active substances and methods of application in treatments made in same year, or in next, which is usually a must. So what happened when I was testing my varroas on their resistance to fluvalinate - the signs of resistance was non existing. You should know that for many years I use same scheme for fighting against varroa: - in August, before brood of winter bees, I am using only half dose of fluvalinate (on wooden sticks) for colonies witch are all on full open mesh bottom boards. - waiting for end of season in mountains (around 1000 meters) to facilitate early ceasing of brood rearing - one treatment in broodless period with different active substance (fumigation with amitraz or fluvalinate or dripping with systemic - for instance Apitol, in the past, or in recent years: dripping solution of oxalic acid) If I am located on isolated place with my winter beeyard (no neighbor beeyards) in many years I was able to skip August treatment. My successful philosophy against varroa was: it is never necessary to kill near 100% of mites. August treatment is important to save wintering bees by just killing excessive numbers of mites (which are jumping from drone to worker brood). Winter (or late autumn) treatment is much more important, and here oxalic acid is the best! I fill that whatever mild treatment are used in August, it will have high antiresistance properties if open screen mesh floors is used. Also, I fill that real IPM is not a option, and I had never count natural mite mortality because of so many variables involved. Now, I am little surprised that this kind of philosophy are becoming mainstream in Europe antivarroa fighting. For more read: http://www.apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/2004/mutinelli_1.pdf Regards, Aleksandar Mihajlovski Republic of Macedonia ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:51:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Oxalic acid again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dick M asked about the $US cost of the Swienty unit. Excluding shipping, it= =20 is about Euro 88 (VAT does not apply to exports) or about $US 110. --=20 Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 04:55:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid-the chemical industry minus Small Cell In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Malone wrote: Alternative beekeeping methods and responses. Part of the scientific method is to question. Just because one questions doesn't mean that one is closed to the method. By questioning, we are trying to reproduce the results. If those results can be duplicated 99% of the time under almost any conditions, then these results are important. It's just that we want to know all the info so as to try to duplicate the procedure. At least that's why I hope we question results. I am, myself, involved in a study to see if we can raise strains of bees without any chems what-so-ever. Since this is the first season, don't have any qualifying reports to share. Have to wait for time to work its way with the colonies. Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:09:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid-the chemical industry minus Small Cell In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: >We are obviously not as kindred a spirit as you think. > >They do not always pipe on this pipeline. Just because they do not pipe on >this pipeline does mean they no longer are keeping bees. > I agree. I have been to the other sites and decided long ago to stay here where you are challenged and have to do more than present anecdotal evident that something works universally. When science is brought up on this list it often gets derided as strongly as alternative beekeeping methods. The list originally started as a more scientific site but was soon taken over by talented armatures and most scientist now just lurk. Most of us who post here regularly get off list emails about what we post from them. As far as many techniques presented here, I have tried most of them when I was the editor of our State newsletter and worked with the State Inspector to determine if they worked in Maine. As far as people going out of beekeeping who tried some of the natural things that were touted here, I stand by that statement. I would love to see more than a group hug to confirm that something works in my area and not just in Arizona or Florida, where AHB may cloud the results. Or that if I fail it is only because I did not do it right, since everyone else succeeds. (Again, the law of the survivor- the ones who are left are the only ones you hear from.) Or that it is not just the technique but everything that the beekeeper is doing. Science tends to separate the chaff from the wheat, not always but better than my backyard experiments. I lose few or no colonies every winter while others lose many, even experienced beekeepers in may area. I think it is the management techniques of George Imire and Tony Jadczak as much as it is anything I add to control mites. Beekeeping is a total practice, not isolated into what you do or do not add to your hives. It includes the environment around your colonies as well. Which gets me back to science. I enjoy Dennis Murrel's trials of small cell beekeeping. I do think that small cells work, but I have also had failures with them. He has pointed out some of the reasons for this. So small cells may be a solution for more temperate climates than Maine, but may not be for Maine. This has been borne out in tests in the State. So all the results elsewhere may have no or limited application here, hence my need to do more than rely on what works in Florida. Or even parts of Alaska, since the climates are very different. Yet they are touted as universally applicable. Some things do work but... An example was recently posted concerning using powdered sugar as a mite control. From what I have read, the application method was not correct and it has been shown that it does not work at some times during the year. It will show little or no mites present when they may be at high levels of infestation. I would not go down that path. As far as going elsewhere to enjoy the company of those who agree with you, no problem. I enjoy the give and take here since it challenges my position (as the posts disagreeing with me show). I have been shown to be wrong on this list and find that helpful, since it keeps me out of trouble. (Before moderation, the heat on this list was exceptionally high compared to today. Then you really needed a strong constitution to survive. One alternative medicine man threatened to sue me!) I have also seen many new and "exceptionally effective" methods challenged here and eventually proved to not work as advertised ( the sewer was one- pun intended). Which is why I value this group over all the others. Pied Pipers do not stand a chance. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 06:49:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike & Janet Brisson Subject: Powdered Sugar....I'm not a scientist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, this is response statement about using IPM methods. I am the person who has started the powdered sugar posts. Why, because I tried it and saw amazing results in knocking down varroa mites. It's true, I'm not a scientist and I have only been a beekeeper since 1996, a very short time. But we have been organic gardeners for over 30 years and were 'forced' into beekeeper due to lack of pollination. I was told at my first meeting, do not expect to raise bees without some sort of chemicals period. Screened boards, IPM methods, resistant queens were never mention, just the ominous statement that mites were already showing a resistance to Apitstan and we were waiting approval for the next line of chemicals that were more dangerous and to me, more scary. After checking around, I discovered screened boards and had my husband make me a few and got hooked on counting mites. What amazed me was putting in the Apitstan strips the next fall and spring. We had huge mite drops for 4 weeks that fall and then they tapered off to almost nothing. The spring count was about half the drop as winter. This was consistent for the next few years. I was able to ask Dr. Eric Mussen, our California State Apiarist, if I needed to keep those strips in for the whole six weeks as instructed. Eric told me as our State Apiarist, he could only tell me how to use the Apistan according to the directions. He did explain the life cycle of mites and how they hide in the brood and if I didn't have mites on my sticky boards after 4 weeks, the strips are probably not killing any more mites, and please do draw my own conclusions. The next fall I pulled the Apistan after 4 weeks when the mites stopped dropping, and the following spring, I realized I didn't have enough mite fall to use the Apistan. That was about 6 years ago. I am active in our beekeeping club. I've been the treasurer and membership person since 1999 and I am very vocal about using screen boards on hives. I'm probably responsible for most of the members using screen boards with success with just my monthly reports on mite monitoring and that was way before we started to swell them. This spring, the mites did catch up with us, as they did with beekeepers all over Northern California, we had a few hives that were very infested. I was going to use Apistan on them, but heard the rumor of powdered sugar being used as a treatment and tried it. The mite drop was like one of Apistan. We counted over 1000's of mites. This is why we are excited. This will be the first year we try to pull our bees through the winter without using any chemicals, just the powdered sugar, which is cheap, non-toxic, and very easy. I understand, in a scientists view, I am over jumping the gun and should do my experiments first and then report them. That's probably true. But I am not a scientist. I just someone excited about something I see working and again, want to get the word out. If this spring, our hives collapse in spite of all our work, I'll report that as well. I'm not expecting anyone else to try over-wintering their hives with powdered sugar. But I am, please cross your fingers for me. Sincerely, Janet Brisson www.countryrubes.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:52:39 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: FW: road kill bees? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>>However, it occurs to me that perhaps attracting bees to the sides of freeways will only get them hit by cars. I am wondering if the nectar of plants near heavily travelled roads/highways contains exhaust/tire/oil impurities that could have high PPM in honey. Anybody know? Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:13:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Oxalic acid/ Chemicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I have never in 5 years had a harsh chemical in my hives. Last year I began with O/A. <...> Honk if you never used Apistan or Checkmite. I started with bees in 2001 and I saw varroa on the bees in my first package within a couple of days after installation... I made and installed screen bottom boards right away and watched more varroa drop as the bee populations grew. I've never used Apistan or Checkmite fearing honey contamination. I saw my first DWS bees in 2003. The colonies still produced a nice spring crop in 2004 but started seriously declining by August of that year. I read about the Swiss and other OA studies and, since it does not leave residues in wax or honey in which it naturally occurs in minute amounts, I used it on my bees in December 2004. I have not had DWS bees since and the bees look really healthy. I am starting to see some varroa only now (Aug. 2005) and I am planning to apply OA when the bees are broodless again. There are finally efforts now underway in the US to register formic and oxalic acids for varroa treatment. Until a reliably resistant bee emerges, I believe the OA is the optimal approach. I have yet to hear/read about any risks to honey (number 1) and, if one is precise in the application, there should be no harm to the bees (number 2). I bought a 12-oz. container of Wood Bleach Oxalic Acid at a local BEST hardware store for $4.99 (plus tax) since Home Depot did not have it. It's by DAP, Inc. I talked to a product specialist at DAP and he assured me the product contains only oxalic acid crystals and nothing else is added. I also received an MSDS (material safety and data sheet) from DAP. The product is to be handled with care (as most cleaners used by Maintenance depts everywhere). The MSDS does say that CHRONIC OVEREXPOSURE is a hazard to the central nervous system, cardiovascular system, kidneys as would be the case with most cleaning agents or acids in general. It's common sense. Beekeepers should not be subjecting themselves to CHRONIC OVEREXPOSURE unless purposefully trying to harm themselves. Inhalation of OA vapors or dust 'may cause severe irritation and burns to the nose, throat and respiratory tract' and, for this reason, I prefer to dribble the liquid solution over vaporizing. It's also a cheaper set-up. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:21:36 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: the best moment to remove yang queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Predrag wrote: >>Thanks for your comments. This season I have noticed something unusual with new queens after removing them and leaving in cages for 2-4 days. Results were less than expected or less then I am used to. But I don't believe that it is due to removing them too soon. The whole year was a mess. Were these young queens purchased from a queen producer? I've always found purchased queens to be of variable quality (due to restricted laying, banking, shipping, chemical residues in the wax etc.). But if their genetics are very good, you might want to let them supercede or raise daugthers from them. Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:49:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Oxalic acid/ Chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick, > "Natural nutrition" caught my eye. I presume that to mean no substitute pollen patties. How do you do that? Collect and freeze pollen? Feed it back? > To me natural nutrition means no feeding at all. To some it means no feeding artificial. I feel if a person feeds they are enabling non-acclimated strains of bees and making them dependent on a keeper and his/her methods of feeding. If bees are acclimatized to a region/location their will be plenty of honey and pollen in the hive to start brooding on time in the spring. If there is not then nature will eliminate the bad genetics, or you as a beekeeper can requeen with a more acclimated strain with a queen reared from your own apiary. > I've been reading this and other lists for years.(Only just started talking) I have never in 5 years had a harsh chemical in my hives. Last year I began with O/A. I have followed your opinions and usually like them. I think today though you are throwing the baby out with the bath water. I actually felt the same as you once. I faulted this list for being skeptical of FGMO. After 3 years I am now skeptical also. I wish I had listened. I passed out a lot of small cell this (and last) year. Usually the bees (Packages) drew out drone comb. I'll keep at it. I'm becoming skeptical. > I am not skeptical on using a natural cell size, I now use a combination of frames that use no foundation, starter strips or full sheets of SCF. I am highly skeptical about using these neurotoxins in the hive and other absolutely foreign substances in the hive in a very unnatural fashion. I will stand by my statements I made to Bee-L but will not argue my stance on Bee-L. Even though I may get some positive feed back others will continue to discredit me with their own personal opinions and then the conversation merely degrades. I could not help myself when someone makes a dumb statement like "their bees all died" or "all their bees died" When this is simply not the case. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:10:05 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: FW: road kill bees? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have a very different concern about encouraging lots of bees at roadside. As it is, I always drive with my windows closed, and use the air conditioning , to prevent any getting into the vehicle with me. This because I am allergic to bee sting (which of course includes all of their family members, wasps etc.) Eunice :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:10:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Chemical Abuse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, This post has been churning in my head for at least six months. It has the potential to start a flame war and I just didn't want to put my dog in that fight. But after reading something in one of Allen's posts, I guess I will risk it. Allen Dick wrote: "On at least one other discussion group the use of Mavrik(r) along with instructions on how to use it has been openly discussed a couple of times within the past year. I'd be more likely to believe fluvalinate tolerance developed as quickly as it did because of that practice, but then that's another story." It may sound like I am blaming commercial operations in this post. That is definitely not the case. I have a lot of respect for and learned much from the folks that do this for a living. Most of them have forgotten more about beekeeping than I will ever know. There are good and bad folks in everything and beekeepers are no exception. Not that long ago I met someone that had been keeping bees for a relatively short time and had less than 20 colonies. He then decided to purchase an additional 100+ colonies and presto he is a commercial operator. As a commercial operator he decided using Apistan is too expensive. All the "big guys" use Mavrik(r) and that is what he did. Last I heard he lost most of his colonies over winter. In early spring I attended a workshop dealing with varroa. Along the way I heard someone who is in an "official capacity" mention that most folks that have a large number of colonies (a.k.a commercial outfits) can't afford to use the conventional treatments so they rely on, as Bob Harrington has mentioned, "sheep dip". That was confirmed in other conversations where some operators openly admitted this. The final straw came when I was reading the mid summer state inspector's report that stated 12% of the colonies inspected were treated using "illegal methods". In my state there are only a handful of big operations. They make up well below 1% of the number of beekeepers here. Because their livelihood depends on it, I think most, if not all, of them know what they are doing (Bob H. can probably confirm this). What scares the hell out of me is a guy like me who hears what they are doing and thinks he can do it too. We have all met folks like this. They think that having more colonies automatically makes them better beekeepers. Yes the more opportunities you have to work with different colonies the more you will learn, but that only comes with experience. Most of these folks are in it for a few years, lose a lot of bees (and money) and then get out. The problem is how much damage will they cause in the process. I do think some of the commercial operators may be partially to blame. I know it is not intentional, but when a successful large operator mentions something they are doing, it only stands to reason someone else will try it. I truly believe they are doing this in order to help other folks out but I think the old saying "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing" applies here. I don't have an answer to this, and please believe me I am NOT attacking commercial outfits, God knows they are hard workers at a craft that is not always rewardable. I just think we all have to be better stewards in what we are doing. The consequences of many may be tied to actions of a few. Take care, Ron Bogansky :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:50:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Chemical Abuse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen Dick wrote: > > "On at least one other discussion group the use of Mavrik(r) along > with > instructions on how to use it has been openly discussed a couple of > times within the past year. ... Actually, Dick Allen wrote that, not allen dick. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:05:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Road kill bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>which of course includes all of their family members, wasps etc.)<<<< Correct me please if I'm wrong but I understood one could be allergic to = one type of bee but not the others because the venom is different. Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:50:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: FW: road kill bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> However, it occurs to me that perhaps attracting bees to the sides of >>> freeways will only get them hit by cars.<<< Well, the occasional bee hitting a windshield or radiator is not a good thing, but it is also not a public nuisance. I wonder what might happen if a hive near a busy highway swarmed and the swarm was hit by passing cars and/or trucks. For one thing, windshields would be instantly smeared with honey and the radiators plugged by bees and honey. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:07:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeff Peck Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar....I'm not a scientist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am trying the powdered sugar method myself this year. No chemicals here.... :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:17:25 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Road kill bees MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT When I was stung by a yellow jacket wasp, I called the poison control center to ask this, and they said yes, all hymenoptera are dangerous if one is allergic to the honey bee. Ten minutes after fighting the wasp off my arm, there was no doubt. A quick trip to the ER took care of the reaction. I carry the epi pen, and behave VERY carefully, to avoid being stung, these days. Eunice >>>>which of course includes all of their family members, wasps etc.)<<<< Correct me please if I'm wrong but I understood one could be allergic to one type of bee but not the others because the venom is different. Dick Marron :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:09:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid-the chemical industry minus Small Cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We are obviously not as kindred a spirit as you think. I think we are. We discuss anything and everything, and most of us don't have an agenda. allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:32:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: FW: road kill bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen wrote: >I wonder what might happen if a hive near a busy highway swarmed and = the >swarm was hit by passing cars and/or trucks. I've driven through a swarm crossing a highway. No big deal. Went = through them so quickly that the death toll was minimal and much less = goo on the truck than we get every day during "double-bug" season. Walter Weller :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:37:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: FW: road kill bees? In-Reply-To: <20050822.065340.8755.90574@webmail28.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:52 AM 8/22/2005, you wrote: Yes, the air, wax, and products inside colonies kept alongside roads accumulate everything from breakdown products of gasoline and diesel fuel to heavy metals. We've published extensively on this topic. Jerry Bromenshenk The University of Montana > >>>However, it occurs to me that perhaps attracting bees to the sides of > freeways will only get them hit by cars. > >I am wondering if the nectar of plants near heavily travelled >roads/highways contains exhaust/tire/oil impurities that could have high >PPM in honey. Anybody know? > >Waldemar >Long Island, NY > >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- >:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:37:01 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Road kill bees In-Reply-To: <001101c5a778$0a6d3350$9216de18@apartment> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>When I was stung by a yellow jacket wasp, I called the poison control center to ask this, >>and they said yes, all hymenoptera are dangerous if one is allergic to the honey bee." Incorrect! >>Correct me please if I'm wrong but I understood one could be allergic >>to one type of bee but not the others because the venom is different. Correct! As one who almost died four years ago from an anaphylactic reaction to a honeybee sting, and who has been stung by all manner of wasp, vespid, hymnoptera and had nothing worse than what looked like a mosquito bite, I can vouch for the fact that honeybee venom and vespid venoms are different and you can be highly allergic to one and not the other. The poison control center didn't know what they were talking about. (Of course, it is possible that a person could be allergic to more than one of the differing types of honeybee, wasp and vespid venoms.) Anyone who thinks they are allergic to honeybees, wasps, vespids, etc. should go to an allergist--the definitive professional in this area--and get tested so you will know precisely what you are allergic to and have a complete plan for both avoiding stings and treating them when they happen. An epipen may not help you if you cannot get to it in time. I stayed away from my honeybees for a year after the anaphylactic shock reaction, but returned after starting desensitization shots, which I still get once every six weeks. I take anti-histamines every day it is above 50 degrees, and I always work my bees in a full suit. I have been stung since, and the reactions have been local. I have also been told by my allergist that there is no way to predict with 100% accuracy when a local reaction can turn into an anaphylactic one. Again, the best course of action is to consult a professional, get tested, know what you're allergic to, take common sense precautions and learn how to avoid getting stung by your particular nemesis. Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:46:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Pollution in hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/08/05 08:28:38 GMT Daylight Time, jjbmail@SELWAY.UMT.EDU writes: <> What about urban bees in general? I believe the quantities of pollutant fall away rapidly away from roads, but while my bees are in a very quiet spot, its inevitable that they will forage along roads to some extent. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:55:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Chemical Abuse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Ron said: There are good and bad folks in everything and beekeepers are no exception. Missuse of chemicals happens many times due to the beekeeper being uninformed and taking the advice of another uninformed beekeeper. I have met beekeepers from all over the U.S. and the world. I never met a beekeeper with bad intentions. Beekeepers that can barely read or simply never read the available information are the beekeepers that need the most help to survive todays complicated issues. Once they understand they never forget. A wealth of information is available but useless if not read and used. All the beekeepers on all the internet lists represent less than one percent of the worlds beekeepers I have been told! > All the "big guys" use Mavrik(r) and that is what he did. I do not normally comment on illegal methods but will make an exception because for some unknown reason the internet bee lists are buzzing about the outlaws using mavric. The use of Mavric points back to the first days of varroa in the U.S. and bee labs. Was used out of desperation with tens of thousands of hives crashing and no approved strips (in the U.S.). Even published in papers its use and methods. The exact ratio was never published but whispered by researchers. The exact ratio whispered was later found to be wrong. Mix correctly and will work for varroa kill but under and over dosing are real. Mix wrong and you have got dead hives. I have never seen the correct ratio published on any bee list. Or even any talk of its use other than full strength. When Apistan was approved most moved to the new apistan strip which prevented under and over dosing but a few diehards kept using mavrik. They were the first to get fluvalinate resistant varroa for the use of mavrik. I actually believe from under dosing. Many contaminated brood comb by spraying Mavrick (dip) directly on bottom boards, frames and comb! By doing so they also created an underdosing situation similar to leaving old apistan strips in year around or reusing. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:03:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Road kill bees- now allergies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janet A. Katz wrote: >Anyone who thinks they are allergic to honeybees, wasps, vespids, etc. >should go to an allergist--the definitive professional in this area--and get >tested so you will know precisely what you are allergic to and have a >complete plan for both avoiding stings and treating them when they happen. > > An unfortunate truth. We have had GP's who knew less about allergic reactions to bee stings than most of the local beekeepers. One other thing to add to this very good post- Change your bee clothes outside and do not store them in the house. Also, do your own laundering of the bee suit. The less you have your family members come in contact with the stuff you bring back from the bee yard, the better. They can develop allergies to bees and bee venom and have dangerous reactions to bee stings. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:15:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Road kill bees In-Reply-To: <001101c5a778$0a6d3350$9216de18@apartment> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eunice Wonnacott wrote: ... poison control center ... said yes, all hymenoptera are dangerous if one is allergic to the honey bee. I'm sorry but that interpretation is incorrect. It is possible to be allergic to the venom of one species but not to the venom of another. It is also possible to be allergic to all of them. It depends on what specific chemical (or even part of the chemical) in the venom triggers your particular allergic reaction. In defense of your poison control center, I would agree with this interpretation: If you are allergic to the venom of one species and do not have verified and recent evidence that you are not allergic to the other, it is prudent to assume that the other could also be dangerous to you. Mike Rossander __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:27:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: drones at looser ends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I keep bees in Brooklyn Ny. Lately, the neioghborhood has been plagued = by honeybees that buzz around like yellow-jackets and seem to have no = goal in mind. Just this morning I got a brief glimpse of one who = settled down for a second and i thought I saw the characteristic bulging = eyes of a drone. My question is: are the workers already beginning to evict drones from = the hive in late August? Is this typical? What is going on? John Howe :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:17:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: Chemical Abuse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob wrote: >I have met beekeepers from all over the U.S. and the world. I never = met a >beekeeper with bad intentions. I know you've met bee thieves or have seen their work, Bob. Like most = good big generalizations, this one leaks. But I agree. Far and away = most beekeepers are the kinds of people I like and trust. Walter Weller :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:53:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Help with vine identification. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain My wife and I walked through a wild life sanctuary last Sunday and we surprised by the magnitude of bumble bees, honeybees and yellow jackets working the blooms of an unfamiliar-to-us vine. The vine looks similar to wild grape (we saw it there as well) but it's not. The inconspicuous small flowers are in small cluster. The vine appears to bloom over a long period (there were some green berries at the bottom of the flower clusters). It's still blooming now in late August here in downstate NY. Can anyone help to id it? Does it sound like Virginia Creeper? I have photos I can forward but, unfortunately, I don't have a website I could post them to. We are looking for vines to train onto arbors by the house that are attractive to honeybees in the late summer. Any suggestions?? Thank you. Waldemar :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:58:06 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: drones at looser ends Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I keep bees in Brooklyn Ny. Lately, the neioghborhood has been plagued by honeybees that buzz around like yellow-jackets... are the workers already beginning to evict drones from the hive in late August? It's too early for drone evictions - they are still needed for mating. Honeybees in robbing pursuits often buzz around zigzag-like similar to yellow jackets. The nectar flow has dimished and perhaps this is what's occuring. Got any photos of these mavericks? Waldemar Long Island, NY :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:05:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: drones at looser ends In-Reply-To: <003301c5a7ee$cdb28150$040ba8c0@john> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, Here in Manitoba (South), some colonies have evicted the drones as from last week (15th August). This leaving in some cases small piles of dead drones around the hive entrances. Normal - as far as I am concerned, yes. Regards, Peter :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:11:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Chemical Abuse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Mix correctly and will work for varroa kill but under and over dosing are real. Most people with a calculator or even a pencil and restuarant napkin can come with the the same dosage using Mavrik versus Apsitan strips. However, I think, it goes a bit deeper than simply mixing correctly. Aren’t the strips formulated to slowly release fluvalinate at a constant rate for a given period of time? Mavrik solutions, as I understand, dissipate quickly resulting in varroa being exposed to lower concentrations. The fix--increase the concentration. I don’t know how many ‘big guys’ use it. I hope it isn’t all that widespread, but still..... Regards, Dick Allen (not to be confused with Allen Dick) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:26:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Gurr Subject: Re: drones at looser ends The message <20050823.085846.28133.112007@webmail18.nyc.untd.com> from "waldig@netzero.com" contains these words: > It's too early for drone evictions - they are still needed for mating. It may be too early for you, but here in the Highlands of Scotland the girls have been kicking the drones out for at least a week. Phil. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:39:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Viktor E. Sten" Subject: Re: drones at looser ends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could be scout bees for a swarm. Viktor in Ontario :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:21:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Angela Copi Subject: Re: Help with vine identification. In-Reply-To: <20050823.085402.28133.111907@webmail18.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Probably Porcelain berry (Ampelopis brevipedunculata). I have seen so many bees working it at times that you would think the whole thing had been dipped in honey. Here in central Virginia it blooms in mid-summer when little else is blooming. Unfortunately, it's not a native species, and is known to be somewhat invasive since birds eat the berries and spread the plant far and wide. There are newer varigated forms that are supposed to be less invasive. Keith Copi Richmond, VA _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:48:06 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Road kill bees MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT That is the way they interpreted their data, I think, to act as if allergic rather than take a chance. In my case, when my eyes watered, chest hurta lot, breathing became very difficult and my tongue began to swell, and pains began to run down my arms, and I started to get very dizzy, I was grtateful for a daughter who only drove as fast as possible to the ER, and did not waste time with questions!! .! ER personnel took it seriously, that is for sure!! Eunice Allerigic or not can be discussed later. Incidentally the Poison Control Centre is associated with a large hospital, but in another Province. > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:20:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Francis Fedrizzi Subject: Api Life VAR in Three Deep Hive I am applying ApiLife Var to a hive that consists of three medium hive bodies. The brood nest is approximately 7 frames wide in the bottom hive body and 4 frames wide in the middle hive body. The top hive body is all honey. Should I apply the treatment on top of the middle hive body or on top of the bottom hive body. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:40:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Chemical Abuse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Aren't the strips formulated to slowly release fluvalinate at a constant rate for a given period of time? Thats what the maker has always said. Myself and others do not buy the story. Plastic is a better applicator than wood for sure. >Mavrik solutions, as I understand, dissipate quickly resulting in varroa being exposed to lower concentrations. I would agree when the method of application is wood. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:44:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Api Life VAR in Three Deep Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Should I apply the treatment on top of the middle hive body or on top of the bottom hive body. Your heading says three deep and your post says three medium. If three medium (which is about like two deep bodies) I would do like below. I have no experience with treating a three deep box with ApiLife Var so not sure how to answer your question. Perhaps my friend Eric Brown (Brushy Mountain) will answer? My guess Eric would still be to place at the top of the box but only a guess but what is done with menthol packets on a three deep box. Break one tablet in four pieces and place on the four corners of the top box under the lid. The bees do not need to contact the thymol to work. A strong hive will try to remove the thymol or propolis over. You do not need to cover the thymol with a screen as suggested early on by testing done in Georgia by Delaplane. Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:56:21 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: drones at looser ends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And still another one: Here in my location in Sweden all the hives have been without drones for two weeks, they started four weeks ago. This year it occured much earlier than other years, perhaps they sensed that winter will set in early? Ron earlier mesages: >> It's too early for drone evictions - they are still needed for mating. > > It may be too early for you, but here in the Highlands of Scotland the > girls have been kicking the drones out for at least a week. > > Phil. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:42:50 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Predrag Cvetkovic Subject: Re: the best moment to remove young queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar wrote: > Were these young queens purchased from a queen producer? I've always found purchased queens to be of variable quality (due to restricted laying, banking, shipping, chemical residues in the wax etc.). But if their genetics are very good, you might want to let them supercede or raise daugthers from them. Hello Waldemar and All When we see that something is not as good as it should be with young queens, the main question can be yours about queen quality. In my case it can be too. But I am very interesting to know "the best moment to remove a good young queen that will be less harmful to the queen" and specially if being caged for 2-4 days after removing. I am not too happy to see supersedure of a young queen but as you mentioned if genetics are very good then new queens may be good? Predrag :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:41:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Api Life VAR in Three Deep Hive In-Reply-To: <200508232220.j7NMCYVE001040@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-78BC597E Apply the ApiLife in the middle box, at the edges of the brood, not out in the corners. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:38:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: drones at looser ends Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>It may be too early for you, but here in the Highlands of Scotland the girls have been kicking the drones out for at least a week. I live on Long Island just east of Brooklyn which is where John Howe was writing from. Actually Brooklyn, a borough of New York City, lies on the south-western end of Long Island. :)) I am in the process of mating 2 more virgins and still see sealed drone brood on the frames. The bees are kicking wasps & occasional bumblee bees out but not drones. :) I typically see drones in the hives into October, sometimes November. No doubt, drone evictions are region and bee race dependent. Waldemar Long Island, NY PS. I've some issues of the Scottish Beekeeper - a very nice publication indeed. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:20:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: drones at looser ends In-Reply-To: <005601c5a868$879e97b0$bb2565d5@roneefje> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron/Eefje van Mierlo wrote: > And still another one: > Here in my location in Sweden all the hives have been without drones > for two weeks, they started four weeks ago. Add Maine to the list. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:20:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: drones at loose ends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There has been some questioning of what I saw. Well, I saw another on my = deck and I am entirely certain it was one of my honey bees. It had large = eyes that met or practically met at the proximal side, just like a drone = as far as I know. I'm sorry I don't have a picture. It landed on the = edge of my coffee cup and then fell in. It seemed thirsty or hungry. It = also seemed very weak. John Howe :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:57:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: drones at looser ends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >No doubt, drone evictions are region and bee race dependent. I do not believe so. Simply about survival. I have been through many periods of severe drought in the last 40+ years. First to go when the going gets tough are the drones! Second is brood . A quick way to find a queenless hive in October is to look for the hive with all the drones. None tossed in queenless hive. All the drones tossed from queenright hives end up in the queenless hive! Sincerely, Bob Harrison :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:33:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: A quick way to find a queenless hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A quick way to find a queenless hive in October is to look for the > hive with > all the drones. None tossed in queenless hive. All the drones tossed > from > queenright hives end up in the queenless hive! At other times during the year, if pollen apatties are put on all hives in a yard, the ones that eat less or none of their patties can be checked for queen problems. The ones that eat with gusto are okay 99 times out of 100. Tricks like this can save a lot of work, unnecessary stress on the bees, and wear and tear on the hives. Anyone else have tricks like these to offer? allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:44:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: drones at looser ends Just back from working 280 colonies in southern & central Mn. Saw several instances of drones being wrestled out of hives the last two days. We're having a dry summer and early fall and consequently a below average late season nectar flow. It does seem early for this behaviour. But several of our apple varieties are running about a week or ten days early too. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:32:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marvin Moose III Subject: Hive with two Queens I have heard of a hive having two queens, one mother and one daughter. But I have a italain hive that I requeened with a carnolian. The carnolian was accepted and laying and yesterday I checked the hive for the second time. I found the carnolian queen and on the same side of the same frame another italian queen was along side of the carnolian, both inspecting empty cells and laying. Is this uncommon, I have always been told that most queens will fight and or kill the other queen. I am interested in hearing from others if you have seen this happen. Marvin Moose North Carolina :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:16:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Julie Mayer Subject: Back to Basics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, =20 Another couple of beginner questions. If the Landstroh hive design was = so near perfection with its space for ten frames, why then are we so = often taught to space only nine frames in it? Does this result in = longer cells and presumably then easier frame surfaces to uncap? Do = most pros keep nine, or ten frames in brood chambers? =20 Is there any easily available and safe solvent for propolis? Or wax for = that matter? =20 John Mayer West-Central Missouri :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:48:26 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: A quick way to find a queenless hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two points on this subject: As far as I am aware, there are no beekeepers in for instance Sweden that ever use any patties (let those that do come forward, so that we can learn..). Also, in Sweden you will have a hard time finding any drones in the month October, or for that matter even September, so the other readers should be aware that your statement only applies to your specific condition and location. But perhaps we can all find an equivalent situation be it earlier or later in the year and still allowing application of your suggested hint. Ron Original Message: >> A quick way to find a queenless hive in October is to look for >> the hive with all the drones...... > At other times during the year, if pollen apatties are put on all.. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 04:16:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Hive with two Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/08/05 03:40:22 GMT Daylight Time, mmoose2@CAROLINA.RR.COM writes: <> I had a hive last year which had three queens in it; this was after I'd split it and found a fourth queen in the other split! In this case, it was a mother and three daughters; I haven't heard of unrelated queens sharing a hive before. Regards, Robert Brenchley :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:33:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Hive with two Queens In-Reply-To: <200508260132.j7Q1P00O004553@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-33A77192 > Is this uncommon ... More common than we are led to believe. one year, I requeened 100 colonies by killing the old queen, and giving a queen in an introduction cage. After being caged for three days, the cages were pulled. Colonies that were actually queenless, were feeding the caged queens, and it appeared that these queens were accepted. In seven, the bees were trying to kill the new queen through the cage. On checking, all seven had a laying queen in the hive, after one had been killed days earlier. Then last year, I requeened 50 colonies by raising the top brood box...without any queen...above the inner cover. This was given a queen. One month later, I went below, killed the old queen, and united the two. In 17 of the 50, I found multiple queens in the bottom unit. That's almost 30%. In one instance, there were two daughters and the old queen laying on adjacent combs. When requeening, if the new queen is something special, run the bees through an excluder shaker box to be sure ALL the old queens are removed from the hive. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 04:52:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Back to Basics In-Reply-To: <017201c5a9ec$a69dc2a0$aec84ad8@dec01gateway> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- John & Julie Mayer wrote: If the Landstroh hive design was so near perfection with its space for ten frames, why then are we so often taught to space only nine frames in it? The pros will probably answer this but we use nine frames in the supers, not the brood chambers, to raise the surface of the caps. This makes it easier to cut the caps off and then extract. Start with ten then reduce to nine after the combs have been drawn out. > > Is there any easily available and safe solvent for > propolis? Or wax for that matter? Denatured alcohol will disolve most of the propolis. Wax? Don't know. Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:47:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Back to Basics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Denatured alcohol will disolve most of the propolis. > Wax? Don't know. WD-40 will remove wax. Scrape as much wax off as possible, then clean up the rest with WD-40. WD-40 is also an excellent release agent on poly molds. For those who don't know, WD-40 is a silicone spray. http://www.wd40.com/ Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:59:31 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland & Dorothy Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: FW: road kill bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I drove through a swarm once while on a farm tractor! Interesting experience! We had a big umbrella on the tractor, and the sound of the bees hitting the taught fabric was novel. Not much in the way of casualties at the speed I was moving. Leland Hubbell walter weller wrote: >I've driven through a swarm crossing a highway. No big deal. Went through them so quickly that the death toll was minimal and much less goo on the truck than we get every day during "double-bug" season. > >Walter Weller > > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:15:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Swarm with two Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This last May my brother and I hived a swarm that filled a deep super of drawn comb. They lit on the ground and all we had to do was put the hive next to them and they marched in. On observing them for a few minutes I saw a golden queen and then not more than a minute later a dark queen. We removed the dark queen and used it for a nuc. Not sure this is unusual as far a 2 queen swarm, but I had never observed this in a swarm. Jerry Wallace :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:32:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Back to Basics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>If the Landstroh hive design was so near perfection with its space for ten frames, why then are we so often taught to space only nine frames in it? I've heard that 9 frames are better in a 10-frame BROOD box - because they are allegedly easier to remove - but I don't buy it. In my experience, the bees will always fill with propolis the space between the frame surfaces that would normally touch. Makes it tough to separate the frames for removal. 10 frames gives more cells to lay eggs in although, in my experience, queens typically don't lay in the outer frames unless the solid bottom boards are replaced with screens. Then the brood cluster will often be located to one side of the box - for better thermal control? - and there will be brood in one of the outer frames. On the other hand, it makes sense to use < 10 frames in the honey supers. I use 8 drawn-out frames. Like you said, uncapping is much easier. And you save the bees two-frames-worth of capping. >>Is there any easily available and safe solvent for propolis? Or wax for that matter? Rubbing alcohol dissolves propolis fairly well. There are neat hive designs less popular than Langstroth's in use today. Some are based on continuous (no gap) brood frames. Others let the bees draw out the combs as in the top bar hive (TBH). In my humble opinion, the Langstroth is the most versatile for manipulation and moving. Is there an ideal hive for the honeybee? Probably but it would have to be specific to a weather region. I've opened and removed a number of feral hives and each time the cavity was different in volume and shape. It always amazes me how honeybees optimize the nest arrangement to a given cavity. And if they don't like the first arrangement, they will adjust the combs in the following seasons. They are amazingly flexible. Waldemar Long Island :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:16:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Back to Basics In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE09210142DDBD@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT What removes wax? Well, for one thing, wax remover does. Ski shops and outdoor recreational stores carry it for cleaning the bases of alpine and nordic skis. One major brand name is Swix. Regards, Dick Allen :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:15:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Back to Basics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I've heard that 9 frames are better in a 10-frame BROOD box - because they are allegedly easier to remove - but I don't buy it. They are without a doubt easier to remove. > In my experience, the bees will always fill with propolis the space between the frame surfaces that would normally touch. Makes it tough to separate the frames for removal. How often do you pull & clean your frames? Bees stick together frames tough when they touch! Not when a gap exists. Propolis is excellent glue but not to bridge a gap. Speed and the non distruction of top bars pulling away from the frame is the number one reason for nine frames. Even with the two end nails top bars will pull away when locked down in a 10 frame situation (sometimes in a 9 frame) The second (many will shudder at the practice) is so we can pull a frame right out of the center of the cluster instead of the wasted effort of pulling the outside frame and sliding every frame over and then back. Time is money in commercial beekeeping. The third reason is the dumb practice of jamming the frame back in the hive with 10 frames many beekeepers do! I have seen beekeepers almost stand on the frame to get it back in at meeting etc.. In my opinion more queens die from manipulation in a 10 frame than a 9 frame. The truth is many commercial beekeepers (including myself ) run most hives with 8 frames and a division feeder. >10 frames gives more cells to lay eggs in although, in my experience, queens typically don't lay in the outer frames unless the solid bottom boards are replaced with screens. We figure 16-18 frames are enough for the most prolific queen to lay in two deeps. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:02:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Hive with 2 queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is thought that as many as 20% of hives have 2 queens. I = accidentally found 2 in my OB hive this year. One golden, one black. I = took some pix. I'll try to get them up. It was cool watching one of them = laying an egg and the other standing guard.=20 Dickm :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:32:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Check out CharlestonHoneyShow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: CharlestonHoneyShow :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:31:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Re: Hive with two Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Micheal Palmer said(speaking of two queen hives): "In 17 of the 50, I found multiple queens in the bottom unit. That's almost 30%. In one instance, there were two daughters and the old queen laying on adjacent combs." Wow, I have stopped putting queens in strong hives because above 30% of the time or more they get a rejected(queenless hive) and i just cant see that it is worth my money. Now If his(Micheals) numbers were representative of all hives then it stands to reason that another solid percentage will get knocked out by the old queen. On the other hand, I have made probably hundreds of splits using caged queens and about 2-4 frames of brood and my acceptance rates have been around 95% overall. I talked to another old time beekeper and he reported the same stats. I do use the shipping cage with a candy plug to release. John Horton :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:46:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Back to Basics In-Reply-To: <20050826.063310.15030.160259@webmail04.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-517D573 > In my experience, the bees will always fill with propolis the space > between the frame surfaces that would normally touch...when 9 combs are > used instead of 10. This is true when 9 frames are evenly spaced in a 10 frame box...as you would for honeycombs. But, if you would push the frames almost together, as if there were 10, and leave a larger space at the sides, then they would be easier to remove. Move an outside frame over a bit, and the next frame comes out easily. The space on the outsides is now larger than a bee space. Yes, they will build that side of the outside comb fatter, and even build some burr comb in that spot, but as you said...they rarely put brood there anyway, so it really doesn't matter. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:59:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Back to Basics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > But, if you would push the frames almost together, as > if there were 10, and leave a larger space at the sides, then they = would be > easier to remove. At the risk of being belittled for using follower boards (which I swear = by), if you use 9 frames and follower boards to keep them tightly = configured, removing the follower board gives the room to move (great = John Mayall hit) for the remaining 9. 9 frames and a follower board on = each end is the bees' knees in my yards. =20 Aaron Morris - thinking I can't give my best unless I've got room to = move! "What'd you come here for, to hear an old record?" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:12:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Check out CharlestonHoneyShow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Honey shows are always fun. I send entries to the Missouri State Fair each year. The highest award I ever received for my light extracted honey was a third place as the class has around 25 entries. I was suprised when my partner called me from the fair and said I had taken the blue ribbon for both the individual class and the group class this year. The state fair is kind of like fishing. Not going to catch a fish without a hook in the water. I enter every year but many times do not place ( or place 3-5th.). My partner and I can't remember when a beekeeper has won both top awards in light extracted honey in the same year. The classes are judged seperately. My judging cards said one class was 98 out of a possible 100 points and the other class was 97 out of a possible 100 points. All honey is run through a polariscope and moisture is checked by one of the new high dollar digital moisture testers. The judge this year was from Kansas and has judged many shows. I am tooting my horn as will most likely never happen again. Each Blue ribbon is worth $35 and the entry fee is $2. The group money I donate to the Midwestern Beekeepers assn. I also won money for my dark extracted entry but my partner( Glenn Davis ,Bell Hill Honey) took the blue ribbon! Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:50:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Check out CharlestonHoneyShow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to agree with Bob. Winning at a honey show is always a thrill. = My most memorable win was at the Empire State Honey Producers winter = meeting where I won Best in Show for 3 beesway candles (Thanksgiving = Turkeys). Best in show wins first pick at the prize table. My prize = was Dr. Roger Morse's personal smoker! I had it for years before I felt = worthy to light it. =20 Winning at a honey show is always a thrill. Makes me feel like a kid = every time! =20 Aaron Morris - thinking it doesn't get any better than a "best in show"! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:48:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: Re: Check out CharlestonHoneyShow In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed i got so excited, i thought it was charleston SC. hmmm... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:41:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Hive with two Queens In-Reply-To: <004001c5aa9e$babe8550$aae84cd8@HortonFamily> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-56E483A > >I have stopped putting queens in strong hives because above 30% of the time >or more they get a rejected(queenless hive) Which is why I make a nuc when I want to requeen such colonies. Remove the top brood box, and provided it has brood in all stages, use that as your nuc. Shake out all the bees, and place it over an excluder overnight. Next day, replace the excluder with an inner cover...escape hole closed. Give queen. Old bees return below, and old queen is below. Young bees above readily accept new queen. 3 - 4 weeks later, go below and kill old queen(s), and unite. This is a very successful way to requeen. New queens are accepted well, and both are laying for a time. If, as happens once in awhile, the new queen isn't accepted, of poor quality, you still have a laying queen below, so the colony never goes queenless. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:00:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 21 Aug 2005 to 22 Aug 2005 (#2005-221) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/08/2005 07:38:19 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: > Part of the scientific method is to question. Just > because one questions doesn't mean that one is closed > to the method. By questioning, we are trying to > reproduce the results. If those results can be > duplicated 99% of the time under almost any > conditions, then these results are important. One of the difficulties in reproducing 'natural' methods scientifically is that there are too many variables, probably the most important of which is the undefinable quality 'stockmanship'. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:03:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Formic Acid in the tropics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anybody have experience of using formic acid as a varroacide in warm and often humid climates where there may be supers on the hive all year? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:11:49 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Check out CharlestonHoneyShow MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Beekeepers are very specil people, as we all know. Many years ago I represented ( with one other) our Prov Gov't at the annual meeting of the Canadian Honey Council, that year held in Toronto. There was a"draw" for a worthy Ontario Beekeepers cause, and I put my money in. By the end of the week, they said the tickets would stay sealed and be opened later! Imagine my surprise when, about a month later, I received by mail , the prize!! This was a small wall hanging, of a couple beekeepers, veils and all. It did feel all "warm and fuzzy" to be reminded of such a great week, in such a nice way. Eunice ! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:23:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid-the chemical industry Hi Bill and Everyone, >(where are you now Dennis?) Since you asked :>))) My beekeeping has become very low key and that's quite a change for this once very intensive beekeeper. And my attention to the lists has also greatly decreased. I get back to BeeL about once every month or so. So it's easy to miss some posts. Sorry! My small cell hives continue to perform as previously posted. They haven't required any treatments, etc. The few hives I've lost has been due to queen failures and not mites or disease (don't have any SHB's yet). Mites, mite treatments, mite research, bee breeding for mite tolerance, and any other mite related stuff no longer has any relevance to my beekeeping. So I don't spend any time on it. I will occasionally look at some of the oxalic posts, as I have a web page describing a homebuilt oxalic evaporator. I believe that the proper use of oxalic will allow beekeepers to get the pesticides out of the broodnest which is a very important factor affecting bee health. And I found that a natural broodnest structure and function is based on much more than just cell size. Cell size is important, but it's not the only factor and when put in its proper place will eliminate much of the very unique stuff associated with small cell beekeeping. I believe small cell beekeeping is based on an erroneous assumption. But the importance of cell size/broodnest function isn't. The result, for me, is hives that easily produce at least twice the amount of honey/hive average for this area. Easily overwinter without loss. Build up fast in the spring. With a couple of spring manipulations, my hives thrive with little or no intervention after that. I can work them or not, at my pleasure, without affecting their health or honey production. My beekeeping has become exceedly simple. I've posted my results here and hope that my experience has benefited others. Since I don't have an agenda, I'm not recruiting followers, I don't subscribe to any conspiracy theories, I'm not defending the defamed, nor am I forming any beekeeping religion; I just haven't seen much need to add to what I have already posted concerning alternative treatments. :>))) The info is out there and anyone who wants to, can read it. It's unfortunate that historical posts are often lost to newer subscribers of a list. I do have a website http://bwrangler.madpage.com It doesn't contain all of the numerical results that I've posted here, but does summarize the observations and results. Not many people on the web get beyond the pictures and read the text, let alone the numbers. :>))) It's maintained on a free web server. I've had to switch web servers in the past, as problems often develop with them. Googling bwrangler will get a current website address if, or when problems develop with madpage and that address is lost. With mites being a non-issue, I've got lots of time/energy and bees/honey to focus on other beekeeping matters. Top bar hives, a spinoff of the small cell experimenting I've done, is one of these areas. They have some unique advantages that aren't available with standard equipment. And I've experienced the same mite tolerant results, with bees in a top bar hive, as with small cell, as long as the broodnest structure is left intact. And I'm even experimenting with making mead. Regards Dennis Thinking that a hungry man's focus is on food. But he won't spend much time or energy on the matter when satisfied. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:57:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Fall treatment with oxalic acid Hi Guys, I've used oxalic acid as a mite control when experimenting with the effects cell size. It's effective, cheap, easy to apply, and won't contaiminate the beehive. It's the most benign mite treatment I've tried on the bees and I've tried them all except checkmite. Just be safe with it. After all, it is a treatment and it does KILL mites. Use it wrong and it can probably harm something/someone else as well. Gone are days when the only skills needed for treating bees were good eye-hand coordination, a strong back, and a love of repeatitive motion. :>) Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:05:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Stockmanship? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Slade wrote, "probably the most important of which is the = undefinable quality 'stockmanship'." How does one define 'stockmanship'? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:43:12 +0100 Reply-To: Phil Moore Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: Hive with two Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Next day, replace the excluder with an inner cover...escape hole closed. Give queen. Old bees return below, and old queen is below. Young bees above.. Mike presumably you have an upper entrance or flight hole in the crown board? Regards Phil Moore -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:04:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid-the chemical industry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It's unfortunate that historical posts are often lost to newer subscribers > of a list. Thanks for mentioning it, Dennis. I know that you contributed quite a bit in the past, and that much of it is relevant today. I'm glad to see you still have a site up. I was looking for it the other day. Actually, as you know, I am sure, we do have searchable archives going back about two decades, accessed via the address in the tag line on every BEE-L post. The archives are chock-full of information and background behind current discussions, and also chronicle the drastic changes that have taken place in beekeeping in recent years. For those who just signed on, I should mention that the BEE-L archives offer a fascinating way of seeing how many of the long-time BEE-L members evolved over time, and how they reached their current views on many topics. As pointed out previously, most old-timers on BEE-L tend to take a wait-and-see attitude towards categorical statements, and express scepticism when offered miracle solutions, or are addressed passionately by people with agendas. If you read the archives, you'll find out why. Unfortunately, as some may have noticed, there has been an intermittent problem with the URL in the tag, since, until yesterday the URL was partly in UPPERCASE and the actual server URL is all lowercase. A Linux server does not see them as the same, so we had an alias set, to redirect BEE-L to bee-l, but it kept getting lost. Yesterday, we just gave up, and Aaron put the real URL in the tag. It should be fail-proof now. That is a long way of saying that the tag URL works now, and we encourage everyone to use it to access the archives and to get other info about BEE-L. allen Just another (sceptical) bee-l subscriber (since 1994) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:30:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid-the chemical industry In-Reply-To: <200508271423.j7RE8gkM007343@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D. Murrell wrote: >I've posted my results here and hope that my experience has benefited >others. > Of all the small cell posts on this list, yours are the ones I have saved. I do not know if you have ever written an article for Gleanings, but what you have found would be of interest to all beekeepers, not just those on this (and other) lists. I do appreciate all the hard work you did in examining the brood nest structure and how cell size was variable. You have done a great service to all beekeeping. Glad you are taking a rest. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:29:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid-the chemical industry In-Reply-To: <200508271423.j7RE8gkM007343@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:23 AM 8/27/05 -0400, Dennis wrote: > >The result, for me, is hives that easily produce at least twice the amount >of honey/hive average for this area. Easily overwinter without loss. Build >up fast in the spring. With a couple of spring manipulations, my hives >thrive with little or no intervention after that. I can work them or not, at >my pleasure, without affecting their health or honey production. My >beekeeping has become exceedly simple. > Ho Hummmm... ESB (Exceedingly Simple Beekeeping). Why, it's just crazy enough to catch on! From your post, you sound positively serene :) Thanks for injecting some sanity and hope back into beekeeping. Like many others unwilling to blindly hop on the "better beekeeping through chemicals" bandwagon or like those ready, in desperation, to jump off it, I want healthy bees and chemical-free honey and I'm going to do everything I can to obtain both. In quantity. Someday I hope to have, if not a comparable understanding of bees as you have, at least a sufficient understanding that I too may attain ESB. Cheers, George- --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:27:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Christopher Reed Subject: Re: Back to Basics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A safe solvent for wax is hot water. Just heat water to boiling and pour it on the wax. You can also put wax covered frames or queen excluders in a solar wax melter to melt the wax off. Chris Reed Arlington, Virginia -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:24:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A year ago this last spring I installed a package of ‘standard’ size Carniolans onto drawn out small cell combs. No treatments of any kind. They built up nicely and overwintered but not great, having dwindled down quite a bit. The bees did build back up, but by mid summer of this year I began seeing dead pupae on the ground in front of the hive. Inside the hive I’d see an occasional bee with deformed wings. Some of the drone brood I scratched open had 5 or 6 mites. I left things alone to see if they would survive the mites. It appears they aren’t going to. More bees began appearing with deformed wings, phoretic mites were readily seen on workers, and P.M.S. symptoms are in the brood combs just as one sees in the photos. Also this last spring I put a package of Carniolans into a brand new top bar hive which is located near the small cell hive. They have built up some nice combs, some of it smaller cell. Now they too are having bees show up with deformed wings and phoretic mites. Unfortunately, without intervention on my part, mites are still an issue with me. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:25:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Road kill bees- now allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > An unfortunate truth. We have had GP's who knew less about allergic > reactions to bee stings than most of the local beekeepers. In my experience it would be far to say that most GPs have almost no in depth knowledge of allergic reactions to bee stings. Of course, beekeepers have a vested interest in knowing about this. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:34:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: drones at looser ends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phil Gurr > It may be too early for you, but here in the Highlands of Scotland the > girls have been kicking the drones out for at least a week. Here in the UK Midlands we usually see drones being evicted from queenright colonies in early August (often late July) but this year there was no sign of any being evicted a week ago when I left for Apimondia. On Friday I visited Micheal Mac Giolla Coda of the Galtee Bee Breeders and there were large numbers of drones in his hives. The season in the UK is very late this year and I am assuming (hoping!) that this is the reason for the retention of drones - and not that we have large numbers of failing queens! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:54:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar....I'm not a scientist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janet Brisson wrote: > I understand, in a > scientists view, I am over jumping the gun and should do my experiments > first and then report them. That's probably true. But I am not a > scientist. I just someone excited about something I see working and > again, > want to get the word out. > > If this spring, our hives collapse in spite of all our work, I'll > report that as well. Well said! I am not a 'scientist' either, although I studied the science subjects at school and have always taken a great interest in the scientific side of beekeeping. In my view, ordinary beekeepers can contribute a great deal by reporting their observations, even if they are not able to conduct full scale studies with proper controls etc. It is then for the 'scientists', who have the appropriate facilities and knowledge, to follow up any promising ideas and prove, or disprove, their validity. Much of our present knowledge has come from simple observation and experimentation by those with few qualifications. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:13:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong In-Reply-To: <200508281724.j7SGwle4023173@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick, This is common to experience this varroa pressure while regressing. I have found that regressing can be more stressful on some colonies than others and this added stress seems to contribute to varroa susceptibility. I have had several colonies collapse from varroa while regressing. In fact, varroa wiped out most all of my "mite resistant" Russians during the second year of regression. ,,,I wiped out the rest the next spring and replaced with better bees. ;>) Regressing, I have found is not an easy venture. You are at the point in the regression process where many fail as I have experienced at that stage. I did not give up after loosing colonies during regressing, but instead continued with the things that were working for me. I am on my 4th year with small cell and am having good success with it. I also eagerly trap feral swarms to integrate into my operation. Some swarms do well on small cell, others that don't get cut in July. I have been no treatments of any kind since 2001 and the bees are looking better each season. I have a 90% varroa / winter combined survival rate, and I do not believe I am seeing the full potential just yet, as things still seem to be improving each season. Best Wishes, Joe Pennsylvania > A year ago this last spring I installed a package of > ‘standard’ size Carniolans onto drawn out small > cell combs. No treatments of any kind... ...Some of the drone brood I > scratched open had 5 or 6 mites. I left things > alone to see if they would survive the mites. It > appears they aren’t going to. More bees began > appearing with deformed wings, phoretic mites were > readily seen on workers, and P.M.S... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:29:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Back to Basics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John & Julie Mayer wrote: > Is there any easily available and safe solvent for > propolis? Or wax for that matter? Depends why you want to dissolve it, what it is on and whether you do not want to damage what it is on. Alcohol and washing soda are two substances that will dissolve both. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:39:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Road kill bees In-Reply-To: <004e01c5ac16$fbd18f00$747f2a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, at least the honeybees are adapting to life along the Pennsylvania highways: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/naturebee/detail?.dir=/d450&.dnm=d690.jpg&.src=ph http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/naturebee/detail?.dir=/d450&.dnm=89f2.jpg&.src=ph Joe Pennsylvania ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:55:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Road kill bees- now allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry - that should have been '... fair to say ...'. Bit brain dead after being lectured to within an inch of my life at Apimondia! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Edwards" To: Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:25 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Road kill bees- now allergies > Bill Truesdell wrote: >> An unfortunate truth. We have had GP's who knew less about allergic >> reactions to bee stings than most of the local beekeepers. > > In my experience it would be far to say that most GPs have almost no in > depth knowledge of allergic > reactions to bee stings. Of course, beekeepers have a vested interest in > knowing about this. > > Peter Edwards > beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 18:46:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Julie Mayer Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a retired Family Practitioner I can certainly testify to the many things we do not know. But I can also testify that far and away the majority of people who come into our offices saying they are "allergic" to bee stings mean that when they are stung it gets red and swollen at the site, and really, really hurts. John Mayer West-Cental Missouri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Edwards" To: Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Road kill bees- now allergies Bill Truesdell wrote: > An unfortunate truth. We have had GP's who knew less about allergic > reactions to bee stings than most of the local beekeepers. In my experience it would be far to say that most GPs have almost no in depth knowledge of allergic reactions to bee stings. Of course, beekeepers have a vested interest in knowing about this. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:26:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong In-Reply-To: <20050828221308.58315.qmail@web34309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > common to experience this varroa pressure while regressing.... Admittedly, I don’t understand all this regression stuff. It does seem to me, however, after being installed on full drawn small cell comb, raising brood throughout a whole summer, and overwintering that they would have been regressed by now. Am I wrong? Is it a lot more complicated than that? Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:03:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Mayer wrote: > the majority of people who come into our offices saying they are = "allergic" to bee stings > mean that when they are stung it gets red and swollen at the site, and = really, really hurts. =20 This is a NORMAL reaction to bee stings. It is not an allergic = reaction, it's the body reacting in a normal way to a foreign venom. = The hystamines in the venom cause the swelling and make it red, and yes = it hurts. This is not an "allergic" reaction, it is normal. = Antihystamines relieve the symptoms. So do more bee stings as one's = immune system becomes more used to a less foreign substance. The issue = is that folks come into a physician claiming an "allergic reaction" and = the physician reinforces their claim by saying, "Yep, that's an = anllergic reaction alright" when in actuality what is being exhibited is = a normal reaction to a beesting. The patient usually goes away with a = perscription for an epipen and a reinforced fear of bee stings, when = what is usually needed is an explanation of what bodies do when = subjected to bee stings and a reassurance that they are reacting = normally and don't really need to go running off to a physician when = their reaction is noraml. True allergic reactions are quite rare. =20 Aaron Morris - thinking true allergic reactions are quite rare. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:27:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: Yellow Jackets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I generally limit my bee removals to real honey bees and pass the yellow jacket jobs on to Orkin. This time it is a friend with the problem and I will take it on. He has yellow jackets with a bad attitude deep inside his house and attempts with Raid have failed. A few are eliminated, but hoards remain. Any advice on how to poison them. Is there a poison that is legal and available in the US that these creatures will take home and feed to their homies? Thoughts are appreciated. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:44:23 -0400 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Road kill bees- now allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a fellow yesterday tell me he was allergic to bees and confirmed by his gp. My sister and I were loading up a beehive ihto my truck and when he throught we were dropping it, he reached out to steady the hive and got stung. My sister got her benedryl for him and I got ready to bring him to ER, but he declined saying he just swells up bad. Shows what doctors know. Shoot I swell up good too if i haven't been stung in a while. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/ http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:06:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: Yellow Jackets Comments: To: lkrengel@MC.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit inside the house call orkin. But if they were inside a cavity that could be sealed up at night quickly they could run out of air. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:31:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Brood Maturity Extension MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This is a question for anyone on the list. Just to give you a little background as to why I ask. I have been doing the drone culling method for varroa this season and have a little knowledge of ethnic diets, thanks to the apitherapy course, it occured to me there may be a market for drone brood. I have found this to be quite lucrative, how about that, cashing in on mite control? I would like to refine my marketing a little and would like to have an idea of what kind of brood development extension I can expect at lower temperatures and still keep the brood alive. This is, I feel, an important aspect of my marketing after harvest. All I have ever read is lower temperatures extends development. I also have a concern as to what are the air requirements to keep these critters alive? As an aside for anyone curious, I am a medium frame/super beekeeper, I place two empty frames in the top brood box of each hive and make (attempt) my yard rounds on a 20 day basis. At this time I cut out any developing drone (eggs thru pupa) and keep only the capped brood for market, the remainder goes to my friends chickens or pigs gratis. 1 frame of brood cut in two fits nicely it a one gal. Ziploc bag, thus the air requirement concern. Presently I use a paper punch for one hole near the zipper. I could leave it open but often there is a limited amount of uncured nectar or honey that could leak out when stored flat. I have pretty much concluded the best way to store is vertical and open, basically solving metabolic heat buildup and the other two issues. Any and all comments will be appreciated. Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:38:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Allergies In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921018B09F7@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >The patient usually goes away with a perscription for an epipen and a reinforced fear of bee stings. Justin O. Schmidt writes in THATHB: “On first contact with a beekeeper, members of the general public frequently make statements to the effect that they, or a close relative/friend are ‘highly allergic to bee (or insect) stings and are likely to die if stung again.’ Besides being unfortunate, incorrect, and misleading, the public perception of the risk from bees is the cause for much unnecessary personal limitation and suffering.” The bee books say that for someone not used to being stung massive swelling can occur, sometimes increasing in size for 72 hours and even lasting for a week. It seems to me many beekeepers themselves don't realize what constitutes a *true* allergic reaction. On beekeeping discussion groups, including Bee-L, stings and allergies are perennial subjects. Each time those topics come up someone usually chimes in with “Go to the doctor and get an epipen!” Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:53:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Yellow Jackets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry Krengel asked: > Is there a poison that is legal > and available in the US that these creatures will take home and feed to > their homies? Not sure if this will help, but here in the UK I kill wasp nests with ant killer powder which contains 0.5% bendiocarb (the same formulation is sold as wasp nest killer - but is more expensive!). I have attached a 3' piece of plastic tubing to the nozzle of the puffer pack, as this helps in awkward places. One good puff into the entrance is all that is needed, as the wasps carry the powder into the nest and there is usually no more activity after about 20 minutes. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:45:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: drones at looser ends In-Reply-To: <006d01c5ac18$4fd0be40$747f2a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Peter & all > On Friday I visited Micheál Mac Giolla Coda of the > Galtee Bee Breeders and there were large numbers > of drones in his hives. I reckon that the reason for this, is... The bees concerned have been selected and bred from AMM colonies that exhibit queenright supersedure, which obviously requires drones to be available late in the season (sometimes very late). This behaviour has a self propagating effect, in that mainly the colonies that retain late drones are of this type and that the AMM mating strategy and high mating frequency can counter the inbreeding risks that can occur when the drones are kept within the colonies that are raising the supersedure queens. Also the ability of AMM to mate locally (AVM), without any drone congregation, allows the mating to occur at temperatures that are much lower than for other races of bee. The Galtee website http://www.gbbg.net/ gives some insight into the methods that have been used to breed this Galtee strain http://www.gbbg.net/longevity.html gives information on the link between supersedure and longevity. AVM is described on... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/avm.html Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 6.02 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:55:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Allergies In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921018B09F7@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron & all > Aaron Morris - thinking true allergic reactions are quite rare Something like one in 50,000 among the general population and about one in a hundred among beekeepers and their close families. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 6.02 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:53:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Allergies In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-172D6C46 > Something like one in 50,000 among the general population and about one in a >hundred among beekeepers and their close families. My daughter had a true allergic reaction to honeybee venom. Her allergist told me the numbers are more like 1 in 200 in the general population are allergic to HBV, while the numbers go to 1 in 10 in beekeeper families. 1 in 50,000 seems a bit low to me. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 04:35:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Small cell regression In-Reply-To: <00da3c2755fc598ecc7a08298845d83d@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen wrote: It does seem to me, however, after being installed on full drawn small cell comb, raising brood throughout a whole summer, and overwintering that they would have been regressed by now. Am I wrong? Is it a lot more complicated than that? Regards, Dick Allen Don't know for sure but think the queens need to regress for a couple of generations. Mike ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:02:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Shane Woodruff Subject: Yellowjackets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Get some Sevin powder and put it into their entrace. They will track it back to the hive and kill off the hive. Don't seal them up or you will probably have a bunch of bees flying around inside your living space ! Shane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:25:12 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Allergies In-Reply-To: <6315a80c55f0503c4b0c0af0307c8490@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen wrote: "The bee books say that for someone not used to being stung massive swelling can occur, sometimes increasing in size for 72 hours and even lasting for a week." Another dangerous statement. There is no way to predict whether someone will become "used to being stung" OR whether they will go into anaphylactic shock and almost die. Anaphylactic shock symptoms are those that are not limited to the site where the sting took place and can include, but are not limited to whole body hives, sudden total body hot flash, sudden total body itching, difficulty breathing, difficulty swallowing, loss of vision as blood pressure drops, vomiting, diarrhea, anxiety. The onset of these symptoms can be very rapid. I get as annoyed as anyone that honeybees are blamed for stings by other venomous insects. I also try to educate all my honey customers on how to recognize a honeybee as opposed to the yellow jackets that were probably responsible for their sting while they were drinking that can of pop. Ultimately, if someone thinks they are allergic to stings, (here's where I really sound like a broken record), they should go to an ALLERGIST (not just any doctor), get TESTED, find out which insect(s) they are allergic to and learn how to avoid being stung. Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:56:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In reference to my comment that "more bee stings" can serve to desensitize one to the effects of bee stings, Janet A. Katz wrote, "The statement that more bee stings relieve the symptoms is so untrue that it is dangerous!". Actually, my comment is spot on and I stick by it. As one receives more bee stings, the body becomes more accepting of them. The "desensitization" to which Janet refers is precisely giving a body exposure to the agent that is causing the problem reaction. Admittedly, the dosage is more controlled. I too had one (that's one, (1), a single unit, greater than zero, less than 2) concerning reaction to a bee sting, once in my life. It was a stressing reaction. I was hot, I broke out in hives, I itched all over, I sought medical assistance. I cannot explain it, it was suggested strongly that I start desensitizing treatments, it was suggested STRONGLY that I give up beekeeping, and I left with a prescription for an epipen, which I filled and kept in my glove compartment in my truck. This is precisely the "scare" approach to which I referred in my last post, and unfortunately is the routine song and dance given at most doctor offices across the country. I didn't buy it. I ! DID get the epipen, and must admit the fear factor associated with my next sting was quite high. More than a thousand stings later I can unequivocally say I am glad I didn't give up beekeeping or buy into the whole desensitizing routine. Such was my personal experience, your results may vary. Janet bought into the song and dance. She went the desensitizing route, and although she didn't state so, I assume she was "cured" by modern medicine. Praise the process that cured her! It's pointless to ask if her experience may have been the same as mine (one bad reaction, never repeated) because she chose a different path. Praise the process that cured her! Beware being armed with the truth. >> "thinking true allergic reactions are quite rare" > Up to 5 percent of Americans are at risk for severe, potentially > life-threatening allergic reactions from stinging insects, As a degreed mathematician and statistician I am keenly aware that there are 4 kinds of lies in this world, lies, dammed lies, maps and statistics! US population is roughly 300 Billion people, up to 5% of which is up to 15 billion people. I have a problem getting my concern level up to "high" based on the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology (AAAAI)'s estimate. I would not be so bold as to insinuate that perhaps the AAAAI may have a self-serving interest in such a statistic. > It REALLY doesn't matter how rare the reaction is if you're one of the > 40 people that die each year from a reaction to an insect sting. I do not make light of 40 deaths, but at the same time observe that 40 is a far cry from 15 billion. Regardless, this is all a digression from my original point, which I stand by. There are far fewer people with true allergic reactions to bee stings than there are people who have been encouraged by misguided reinforcement that they have true allergic reactions to bee stings. Aaron Morris - still thinking true allergic reactions are quite rare -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:57:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Allergies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: >Something like one in 50,000 among the general population and about one in a >hundred among beekeepers and their close families. > > I cannot comment on the numbers but the incidence is greater with both beekeepers and their families. There is a reason that family members have more allergic reactions, even if they have nothing to do with your beekeeping. Please remember to change outside you house and keep your clothes and equipment away from your family members. Just the trace amounts of bee stuff you bring into your home will sensitize your family members and will make them more prone to a true allergic reaction. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:59:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark esterly Subject: Re: yellow jackets In-Reply-To: Automatic digest processor 's message of Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:00:22 -0400 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) try a solution of equal parts of sugar and boric acid. it does wonders on ant colonies. regards mark -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:15:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Back to Basics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bob wrote: >>How often do you pull & clean your frames? I'm a hobby beekeeper and inspect my hives once a week. Once every 2 weeks or less often if the hives are heavily supered. I use plastic frames only. They touch each other very tightly (there is more natural variation with wood frames). Whatever little propolis is between the frame surfaces that touch - but there always is some - I work with my fingers into the hollows of the plastic frames. I hate when bees get entombed and die in those hollows. The hollows in the plastic frames is about the only thing I don't like about plastic frames. Over time I fill these up completely with propolis. >>Bees stick together frames tough when they touch! Not when a gap exists. Propolis is excellent glue but not to bridge a gap. This is very true. However, the larger the gap, the more propolis gets worked into it. Invariably there are times when a frame is not pushed against the other ones and the bees quickly fill this gap with propolis. When this happens I have to slice through this 'joint' with a hive tool. Not a big problem if the weather is warm. It's another story in the late fall. >>Even with the two end nails top bars will pull away when locked down in a 10 frame situation (sometimes in a 9 frame) I can see where the non-destruction is a factor with wood frames. I don't see plastic frames coming apart. >>The second (many will shudder at the practice) is so we can pull a frame right out of the center of the cluster... I do this sometimes as well (although try to avoid this practice for the fear of rolling a queen to death). When 10 plastic frames in a Langstroth hive are pushed to one side, the space remaing is about 1/2". Perhaps 5/8". I split this space between the two sides by centering the gang of frames in the box. For me, this is sufficient. Before taking a frame out, with my hive tool, I push all the frames to one side to create a little room at the other side. Then, I can take a frame out without any problem. Takes seconds. The first frame I pull is usually the 2nd or 3rd from the end. That's usually where where the nest boundary is. Of course, I take care to remove the first frame gently just in case the queen is on it. >>The truth is many commercial beekeepers (including myself ) run most hives with 8 frames and a division feeder. Commercial beekeepers probably need to shave every second off of their process time. In my hobby/side line operation, time is less pressing. Regards, Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:16:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: drones at looser ends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave (& all) Yes, I thought that the reason for the high number of drones at Galtee would be that they are A.m.m. (I have some of his bees myself), but I have also noticed this in many of my own colonies this year - including ones that are definitely not A.m.m. - yet. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk PS sorry to have missed you at Paddy Cullens - I was there from 1.10pm to 1.30pm, but saw no-one. I also walked around Apimondia for 2 days with a large Bee-L label on my shirt. No-one from Bee-L seemed to see it, but many others asked why I had it there! There may be many more subscribers in the near future. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:45:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar....I'm not a scientist In-Reply-To: <008d01c5ac1b$0d6f4e60$747f2a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > Janet Brisson wrote: > >> I just someone excited about something I see working and >> again, >> want to get the word out. >> >> If this spring, our hives collapse in spite of all our work, I'll >> report that as well. > > > Well said! I am not a 'scientist' either, although I studied the science > subjects at school and have always taken a great interest in the > scientific > side of beekeeping. In my view, ordinary beekeepers can contribute a > great > deal by reporting their observations, even if they are not able to > conduct > full scale studies with proper controls etc. All well and good. I just have a problem with the method described. There is plenty in the literature about powdered sugar for mite detection in place of the ether roll. That requires the mite to be coated with the sugar so it is dislodged (not killed) from the bee. The application method described will not do that for all the mites and bees in the colony. Plus, it has been shown that even the sugar shake can yield bad data (less mites than are actually there) some times during the year. I think there were some that did take out every frame and powder (even with talcum powder) the bees. That can get a bit labor intensive and powdered sugar is difficult to work with at best. Plus, the non-caking agents added to some powdered sugar is bad for bees. They will convert it, with the additives, for stores so, in a long winter and cold climate, it would not be a good winter store. It has also been shown that open bottoms will lengthen the time to Varroa collapse. Add another factor to increase mite drop and the time is again lengthened. It is interesting that many methods used mite drop and open bottoms as Varroa controls. None have stood up over time but many are still in use with new converts as the old ones disappear. I could use powdered sugar just as Janet is doing. I predict that my bees would be fine come spring. I might report excellent results over the next two or three years. After that, I would probably be in trouble. Would I then have the courage to report back to this list that it did not work? But by then I would have convinced others that it was an excellent natural method to control Varroa. I go by Bob Harrison's dictum: No proof unless the colony is stressed (by the experimenter) with high Varroa pressure. Just about everything works until then. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:48:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Back to Basics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mike wrote: >>if you would push the frames almost together, as if there were 10, and leave a larger space at the sides, then they would be easier to remove. Move an outside frame over a bit... I always find the colonies, if they are strong, building excessive bridge/burr/ladder comb between the outside frame and the box itself if too much space is allowed. This burr comb gets quite hard over time. Then, if I move the outside frame over, to make room, the stiff burr comb pierces into the honey-filled comb and, as a frame is pulled up, the burr comb, like a knife, cuts through the comb often killing bees and sending honey down the frame. This can still happen with 10 frames (bees like bridges to cross from one surface to another, and all equipment is not identical, if the gap is more than a bee space) but it happens much less in my experience. Since I always inspect without protective clothing and typically without smoke, I don't like crushing a single bee so prefer the 10-frame arrangement. Crushing a single bee can release alarm scent and makes the bees a bit defensive. Stinging, especially to the face, is a bit painful.;-) >>Yes, they will build that side of the outside comb fatter, and even build some burr comb in that spot... I like my frames to be fully interchangeable. I've gotten into trouble with the fatter comb when trying to insert a frame with a fatter side in the middle of other frames. The fatter side typically crushed bees against 'regular' thickness comb it since there would be less than a bee space. Of course, bees would shave the fatter side down over time to restore the bee space. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:49:54 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I wonder if the problem may be, in part, the small cells? The intent may be to restrict drone formation, but the effect may be to the detriment of the e development of normal or healthy workers?? Eunice > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:53:06 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Road kill bees- now allergies MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Interestingly, our very small beekeepers association has both GPs and Specialists as members. They are excellent beekeepers, who enjoy this sideline "hobby" Eunice ----- > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:04:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Allergies In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050829065001.017ee2f8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike & all > > Something like one in 50,000 among the general population and > > about one in a > > hundred among beekeepers and their close families. > > My daughter had a true allergic reaction to honeybee venom. Her allergist > told me the numbers are more like 1 in 200 in the general population are > allergic to HBV, while the numbers go to 1 in 10 in beekeeper families. 1 > in 50,000 seems a bit low to me. You will see many different figures quoted for sting sensitivity, as many of the published figures are compounded into a single number using elements of both general population figures and beekeeper family figures along with estimates of the ratio between the general population and the number of beekeepers within it. The figures arrived at vary quite widely and usually reflect the point of view of the person or group putting forward the figures. I do not wish to belittle anybody's genuine allergic reaction, but the figures I stated came from the guy (that conducts bee sting immunisation therapy) at one of my local hospitals, about 20 years ago. There is obviously a 'tolerance' involved in the numbers, I reckon that the figures for beekeeper allergy may be a little lower than one in a hundred, simply because among my personal friends it is more like one in seventy, but I doubt that the figures are wrong by a factor of 250 as you suggest... An error factor of 2 or 5 may well be possible, but if it were one in 200 in the general population the hospitals would be flooded out with anaphylactic shock victims. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 6.02 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:06:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: yellow jackets In-Reply-To: <18061-431306CE-4572@storefull-3235.bay.webtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a totally inefficient but ecologically sound way to do it. Just sit outside their exit and shoot them down with a soapy water spray. I had a problem with a weak hive and yellow jackets. I armed myself with a spray bottle filled with 1 tsp Ivory dishwashing liquid in a quart of water. It was a real life video game, killing off the bad guys while sparing the good ones. It worked fine and took about an hour or so. (Hate to say it but it was enjoyable fun. Had a narrow spray so it was at least a bit sporting. Plus I was on the side of good against evil.) If you have kids, arm them with soapy water spray guns and let them keep score. ( Try it yourself, first. I stood rigth in the middle of the yellow jackets, spraying them, with no problems.) Most also know that a soapy water mix is also excellent for killing an in ground (where they usually are) yellow jacket colony. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:05:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Allergies and numbers In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE09210142DDCC@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron Morris wrote: US population is roughly 300 Billion people, Aaron, Think you meant million, not billion, yes? Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:19:40 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Aaron: I am personally extremely careful not to get stung in the first place. When it does happen, the results are , so far, not immediate, but within half an hour to an hour, I will experience severe chest pain, difficulty breathing, pains in shoulders and upper arms, swelling tongue, eyes pouring tears etc etc. I presume this is "real" ? Is an epipen not effective for this? I have been prescribed the pen, and carry it, but so far have never had to actually use it. Are you saying that it would be of no use? If that is the case, what is appropriate? I no longer keep bees, but breathing the air of the hive while working over it, also seemed to cause similar.symptoms . So I wonder just what was actually going on. Does inhaling pheromones also cause allergy, or am I that afraid of the stinging?? I am not aware of being afraid, and have handled insects since early childhood with great interest. Eunice True allergic reactions are quite rare. Aaron Morris - thinking true allergic reactions are quite rare. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:28:56 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Yellow Jackets MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Yellow jackets have eaxy access to oour house, via the little gasps thaat are normally left between bricks when building a brick wall. Once inside, we only see them when one "gets lost" andsomehow gets inside the living room, instead of outdoors. They gravitate to the light, and the big picture window draws them there.AS a child my parents taught us children how to get rid of unwanted, single , insects. It is quite simple. arm oneself with a clear , straight sided, drinking glass, and a bit of thin cardboard. put the glass over the insect, and slide the cardboard between glass and window. Keep cardboard closely tight over glass, and hold it upright. The insect will climb to the top. Just take it outside and remove the cardboard and reverse the glass. Occupant is happy to go on its way.!! EDW > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:40:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: US Population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> US population is roughly 300 Billion people, > > Aaron, > Think you meant million, not billion, yes? > > Mike Yes, 300 million. Gad, that would be crowded, eh? Aaron Morris - I stand corrected. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:08:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Eunice, > within half an hour to an hour, I will experience severe chest pain, > difficulty breathing, pains in shoulders and upper arms, swelling > tongue, eyes pouring tears etc etc. I presume this is "real" ? I would agree, this is a real and severe reaction to a bee sting. It exceeds "redness, swelling and pain" which is what the original poster agreed was an allergis reaction. My first post on this topic asserted "redness, swelling and pain" is normal, to be expected, and often misdiagnosed as a true allergic reaction. > Is an epipen not effective for this? I cannot and would not say. What you described is what I experienced once. I was prescribed an epipen. I too never used it. I do not now keep an epipen handy, nor have I for years. > Are you saying that (an epipen) would be of no use? I am not saying that. I am not advising to ignore professional advice. I am pointing out that professional advice is often to carry an epipen and am asserting that more times than not the advice to do so may be unnecessary. In today's litigous society, a doctor is bound to err on the conservative side, and I am in no way advising that my word be taken over one's physician. When it come's to one's health, personal responsibility is my advice. Personally I was advised to carry an epipen. I did so. I found I didn't need it. Eventually it ended up on the ground and I backed over it with my truck (this was by accident). I had many stings between the time I purchased the epipen and backed over it, but I followed my physician's advice to keep it handy until I was confident that I didn't need to have it on hand. If my dying thought is, "Damn, I should have kept that epipen handy!", the fact that I didn't have an epipen handy will be based on my own personal decision to not! have it on hand. I will be responsible for my demise, but no one else's. A physician's advice trumps mine. In my own case, my physician prescribed an unnecassary course of action. I assert that happens more times than not. > I no longer keep bees, but breathing the air of the hive > while working over it, also seemed to cause similar symptoms. > So I wonder just what was actually going on. I cannot say. In this case I'd back Janet's advice to consult with an allergist. If you have routine, reproducable symptoms beyond normal redness, swelling and pain, I advise seeking professional help. My original assertion was redness, swelling and pain is a normal reaction to a bee sting, often claimed by the general public to be an alergic reaction, and often reinforced by physicians to be an allergic reaction when in fact, redness, swelling and pain is a normal reaction to a bee sting. Aaron Morris - thinking true allergic reactions are quite rare, but allergic reactions DO occur. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:11:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In reference to my comment that "more bee stings" can serve to desensitize > one to the effects of bee stings, Janet A. Katz wrote, "The statement that > more bee stings relieve the symptoms is so untrue that it is dangerous!". Both persons may be right. There may be different assumptions in regard to the timeframe being discussed. * I think that most of us agree that a series of individual stings over time, days or weeks apart, tend to increase tolerance to bee stings in most people, and "can serve to desensitize one to the effects of bee stings". Most of us have experienced this. * On the other hand, "more bee stings" on one occasion can have the opposite effect, especially if a tipping point is reached and the body's defenses are not merely challenged, but overwhelmed, and a bad reaction occurs. > I too had one ... reaction to a bee sting, once in my life. It was a > stressing reaction. I was hot, I broke out in hives, I itched all over, I > sought medical assistance. There are many reasons that people have bad reactions when outside in nature, besides bee stings. People have such episodes when they are nowhere near bees or hives, so it follows that sometimes immune system reactions can occur in the context of working on bees, but not actually have anything, or little, to do any bee stings that may occur. Nonetheless, in my experience, the bees always get the blame. A bad reaction can be due to medication (watch out for drugs ending in 'phen' or 'fen' when working bees), a nearby plant, something that was eaten, an undetected insect bite or sting, panic, tiredness, and -- very often IMO -- all the above combined with heat and exertion. Panic and frenzied activity on observing symptoms can also increase stress and bring on further symptoms. Moreover, heat reactions can mimic and/or exacerbate allergies, and several factors can combine to produce a frightening event that may not be repeatable in the future by encountering a bee sting alone. The problem is that these events are unique and thus not understandable, and the prudent tendancy is to err on the side of caution. If actual allergy tests are not made afterwards to determine the true cause, then the assumption of bee allergy may be wrong, and lead to a lot of unneccessary fear, avoiding of bees and outdoors, carrying of epi-pens, etc. Although there is a much higher probability of a repeat episode after a bad reaction, *nobody* can state with certainty what will happen with the next sting at a later date. Some people who have appeared to be allergic due to a sting on one occasion can later turn out to have merely a normal reaction (a bit of pain and swelling) on later occurences. And, although it is rare, people like us, who are apparently quite tolerant of bee stings can suddently present with a life-threatening reaction, with no warning. It's a crap shoot, and the odds are somewhat known. >> Up to 5 percent of Americans are at risk for severe, potentially >> life-threatening allergic reactions from stinging insects, > As a degreed mathematician and statistician I am keenly aware that there > are 4 kinds of lies in this world Did you know that 95% of statistics are made up on the spot? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:47:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Noble Subject: Re: Yellow Jackets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With the approach of colder weather, I would be inclined to leave yellow jackets be, as they will all be gone soon anyway. That is unless you can't avoid disturbing them when you walk by. We had a big wasp nest hanging right over our work area last summer, and we just watched it grow. We never bothered them and they never bothered us, and come October the nest was empty. Steve Noble -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:05:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Worth Remembering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is worth remembering that just because something appears on BEE-L and *seems* reasonable does not mean that it is true, and that it is true in all cases. BEE-L is a discussion list, and people write as they think at the moment, and nobody guarantees anything. (At least I don't). We're mostly lay people, not professionals, scientists or medical experts. Nothing on the list is juried or peer reviewed. Much of what appears here is opinion, comment, and observation. Every day, reading BEE-L, we can find inaccuracies, incomplete reports, invalid conclusions, speculation, and opinion. Such a free exchange of ideas is very valuable as a starting point, but readers are reminded to investigate further to establish whether the information read on BEE-L is fact or fiction, and applicable in their situation and jurisdiction. allen Opinions are not facts. Use with caution. (Thanks Andy) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:54:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: bees and allergy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi all: Ok, I've found that the general public, beekeepers, and even some emergency room doctors often don't understand this topic, nor the differences between generalized and more severe allergic reactions -- and most importantly, when to head to the emergency room. Although somewhat dated, the following book lays it all out, and should be on every beekeeper's shelf: Authors: Claude A. Frazier, M.D. and F.K. Brown Title: Insects and Allergy and What to Do About Them Date: 1980 Publisher: University of Oklahoma Press, Norman 272 pages RC598.A76F7 616.97 79-6706 University of Oklahoma Press 1005 Asp Avenue Norman, Oklahoma 73019 The author reportedly was a leading U.S. authority on general and insect allergy, with lots of books to his credit. Good hunting, maybe its on your local library shelf. Jerry I don't know if its still in press, it was originally available in paperback and cloth bound versions. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:05:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Julie Mayer Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, >It exceeds "redness, swelling and pain" which is what the original poster >agreed was an allergic reaction. My first post on this topic asserted >"redness, swelling and pain" is normal, to be expected, and often >misdiagnosed as a true allergic reaction.< My point as "first poster" was exactly the same as yours ... most people who claim allergy to insect stings are describing a normal physiological reaction to stings. (And most physicians find it does little good to try to educate them that it IS NOT an allergic reaction.) But if someone describes associated hives, breathing difficulty, palpitations, etc it is hard not to err on the side of discretion; i.e., prescribe EpiPen or antihistamines. Such symptoms may after all just be a result of anxiety or exaggerated pain response but there certainly is such a thing as true anaphylaxis reactions. As has been accurately pointed out many times here on the list, it is very difficult to predict when a reaction will proceed to life-threatening shock and when it will stop at annoying hives. As to why some seem to have variable reactions .... hives and a more severe reaction once; then never again .... Allergists make their living trying usually with no success to determine why. Often we are left with only a "combination of factors" theory. John Mayer West-Cenral Missouri -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:19:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Allergies In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE09210142DDCC@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wrote: >"The bee books say that for someone not used to being stung massive swelling can occur, sometimes increasing in size for 72 hours and even lasting for a week." To which Janet replied: >Another dangerous statement. I now write: As I see it there is nothing dangerous in my remarks whatsoever. It was simply a statement of fact. Local reactions do get quite large for some people and do last more than a few minutes. Aaron posted some remarks on bee sting allergies, so there’s no point in me rehashing what Aaron has already said. >There is no way to predict whether someone will become "used to being stung" Well, yes you are right. Where in my post did I mention anything implying there was a way to predict? Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:17:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: Sting reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I note that I react quite differently to some stings than others, often nothing other than the initial pain of the stings but occasionally minor swelling, soreness and red spots that persist for a few days to a week. Perhaps some of this is due to the site of the sting and whether or not it hits an artery/vein. I have also thought that perhaps the age of the bee has something to do with the amount and toxicity of venom. I have read and observed that the newly hatched bees don't sting but haven't seen any studies that discuss age and venom amount/toxicity. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 05:16:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Top bar hives (was oxalic) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/08/2005 05:04:44 GMT Standard Time, Dennis Murrell writes: > Top bar hives, a spinoff of the small cell experimenting I've done, is one > of these areas. They have some unique advantages that aren't available with > standard equipment. And I've experienced the same mite tolerant results, > with bees in a top bar hive, as with small cell, as long as the broodnest > structure is left intact. > I have a TBH which the bees seem to like and so do I because it is easy to work and in the course of about 5 years I have never received a sting while doing so, even with no smoke. They do get mites but I haven't noticed them being as plentiful as in other hives. Normally I treat with Apiguard (thymol gel) in the Autumn. The downside is that the hive is not as productive as storified ones. Chris (UK) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:04:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sting reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I note that I react quite differently to some stings than others I think we all do. I notice a difference between strains of bee and time of year, and presence or lack of flows. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:50:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Mite Solution Concentrate & Herbal Bee Calmer Gel Producer fined by EPA In-Reply-To: <35b321a02af4ef8935aac73475eca091@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" EPA News Release August 24, 2005 Contact: Chris Gebhardt, EPA Seattle, 206-553-0253 Tony Brown, EPA Seattle, 206-553-1203 EPA: Administrative Law Judge finds StevenTuttle Guilty of Illegal Pesticide Sales and Orders Payment of $14,850 On July 15, 2005, an administrative law judge for the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) found Steven L. Tuttle of Woodland, Washington, guilty of five violations of the federal pesticide law and ordered him to pay a civil penalty of $14,850. Specifically, Judge William B. Moran's decision affirmed the allegations found in EPA's March 18, 2004 civil complaint that Mr. Tuttle sold and distributed two unregistered and incorrectly labeled bee miticide products named "Mite Solution Concentrate" and "Herbal Bee Calmer Gel." The Judge also found that these two products were produced in a facility not registered with EPA. "EPA understands that mites pose a significant problem for bee keepers, but Mr. Tuttle is marketing bee miticides that have not passed safety tests required by law," said Scot Downey, Manager of EPA's Pesticides and Toxics Unit in Seattle. "Mr. Tuttle needs to comply with the law, especially when his competitors are doing so." Mr. Tuttle was also fined $3,780 for selling one of these products in 1997. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:55:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eunice Wonnacott asked: > I will experience severe chest pain, difficulty > breathing, pains in shoulders and upper arms, swelling tongue, eyes > pouring > tears etc etc. I presume this is "real" ? > Is an epipen not effective for this? An Epipen contains adrenaline - a heart stimulant - and is used to treat severe systemic reactions and anaphylaxis, i.e. life threatening reactions. But it is not a complete treatment - only an emergency treatment intended to keep the patient alive until they can reach a hospital. In my unqualified view, your symptoms would seem to fit this description and I think that you should discuss this further with your GP, with a view to seeing a specialist. There have been many opinions and numbers bandied around on the list recently, but anyone wanting a good overview written in terms that most laymen will understand might do well to read Harry Riches book 'Medical Aspects of Beekeeping'. For those who do not know the name, Harry Riches worked at Harefield Hospital (of heart transplant fame) and is a world authority on bee venom allergy. He is also a beekeeper and has suffered from bee sting allergy - which progressed from gross local swelling to collapse after a single sting. In the book, Harry makes the point that it is very difficult to give numbers for people allergic to insect stings, but quotes a survey in the UK that 10% of the population are stung each year by bees or wasps (most would probably not know the difference!) and some 40,00 suffer reactions serious enough to merit further investigation. He also states that in the US, it is widely accepted that between 1% and 2% of the population may be 'at risk'. It is clearly important that beekeepers have at least a basic knowledge of the types of reaction that may occur, the reason for those reactions, the likely effect of further stings - and any appropriate treatment. Briefly: 1. The first sting will normally produce pain, local swelling, redness and itching which may take several days to abate. Of course, many of the public consider this to be an allergic reaction. 2. What happens next will depend on the person being stung. There are two immunoglobins involved - IgG and IgE. If the body produces IgG, then further stings will have a diminishing effect until immunity is achieved. If the body produces IgE then increasingly severe reactions are likely: 3. Next, gross swelling - perhaps an entire limb. Stings to the mouth or neck can be very dangerous here, as airways can be blocked. 4. Then mild systemic reactions - wheezing, watering eyes, urticaria (nettle rash, usually over large parts of the torso). 5. Then severe systemic reactions - difficulty breathing, unconsciousness and, in the most severe cases, anaphylaxis which if not treated rapidly may lead to death. Of course, this is a simplified version. It is possible to go from local swelling to collapse. Equally, beekeepers who have suffered moderate symptoms (4. above) may ultimately develop immunity (I did so myself and so did my wife). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:06:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong In-Reply-To: <000401c5aca0$89746a60$9216de18@apartment> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I wonder if the problem may be, in part, the small > cells? I don't think so, I see a variety of worker cell sizes in feral colonies I have collected, and some colonies with a high majority of small cell worker cells, and they generally will appear to be in very good health. The intent may > be to restrict drone formation, but the effect may > be to the detriment of > the e development of normal or healthy workers?? Workers from my small cell colonies look very healthy and normal looking to me. I have done no drone culling or restricting of drone cells other than regular beekeeping practices of removing frames with high number of drone cells. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:01:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Small cell regression In-Reply-To: <20050829113548.20980.qmail@web53409.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > It does seem to me, however, after being installed > on > full drawn small cell comb, raising brood throughout > a > whole summer, and overwintering that they would have > been regressed by now. Am I wrong? Is it a lot more > complicated than that? I hate to give you a new word, ;>) but there is the 'stabilization' process which is a vital part of regression. As Mike mentioned, queens need to be regressed also which is the stabilization factor. And my personal theory is that regressed queens must mate in an area where they have high probability of matings with other small cell drones from either small cell colonies or smaller ferals. Or you will result in have poor mated queens caused by assortative mating preferences. My opinion is that,,, People that are regressing need to get out of their heads the thinking that 'the size cell is the benefit'. IT IS NOT! It is the things the small sized cells allow such as assortative breeding in the stabilization process that the benefits are realized. This citation below seems to support size related mating preferences in honeybee drones. My personal theory is that if you are in an area that lacks smaller drones you may have a tough time succeeding with small cell, unless you can regress several colonies at a time. or have ferals to supply smaller drones for matings. I have abundant feral populations here which may have helped me succeed. http://balder.prohosting.com/~starrier/SizeRelatedMatingPreferences.html ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:01:13 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Yellow Jackets MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Once, in early December, we found a huge one, over a foot in each direction, high in a corner of our cellar, the one where the furnace would be heating water and thus keeping a steady temp all summer. It was empty and easy to remove. I am rather glad, in way, that we never knew it was there, but we keep our eyes open now!! Eunice > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:26:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leif Woodman Subject: Re: Yellow Jackets In-Reply-To: <004f01c5ac38$dae42ce0$ab5b70d1@Tom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From time to time we get them coming in through little holes in the mortar. What I do is put some Sevin powder in a soda bottle with a straw coming out the top of the cap that I stick into the hole, then blow a bunch of the powder into the hole. They will generally carry it further into the hole by them selves. I also have fun with the back pack sprayer, filled with one cup dish soap to one gallon of water, picking them off in the air by there hole. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:43:37 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thank you to all who have replied so kindly, and so informatively. I will discuss this with my GP the next time I see him. I have a visit coming up soon. As I understand these posts, one main difficulty is in whether there is an allergy or not, and second how to deal with it. I am frequently more than 30 minutes from any hospital (who isn't?) so do my best to be vigilant at all times. Eunice > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:32:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid-the chemical industry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dennis & All, Sorry your life is moving in a different direction as a huge amount of beekeeping research needs done! Thanks Dennis for your contributions to beekeeping and your honest way of sharing your observations! Thanks for our private converstations on a wide range of beekeeping issues! My small cell experiments have turned out similar to Dick Allens but I added varroa pressure and stress to the mix. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:30:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, Allen raises some valid points. Especially about medications & stings. MD's have warned beekeepers about certain meds causing reactions from bee stings. >And, although it is rare, people like us, who are apparently quite tolerant of bee stings can suddently present with a life-threatening reaction, with no warning. I am going to add my 2 cents worth based on a lifetime of beekeeping and working side by side with the largest beekeepers the world has ever seen (and most likely ever will). Low dose is the problem. I have NEVER heard of a person getting the number of stings a *working daily* commercial beekeeper gets having a serious reaction (150-200 per year). Those doing apitherapy will quickly tell you one single sting from a honeybee left in for fifteen minutes is better for apitherapy than five of the shots (bee venom) the Doctor gives. I am sold on the notion bee stings help to prevent arthritis. Arthritis runs in my family . My mother had crippling rheumatoid. My father walked with help of a cane due to arthritis! Both suffered from arthritis pain in the last years of their lives. Not me! My family is totally amazed at family reunions at my lack of any signs of arthritis! They rub my knuckles in disbelief. My MD has tried to give me a script for arthritis. I told him I have NOT GOT arthritis. To prove to him I took an arthritis test which came back negative. I used to wear protective clothing to prevent stings. After learning from Charles Mraz. I went in a different direction. I get about twice the stings a year required for full immunity to stings. I was in the bee yards today with help pulling supers. Help in full English style suit, gloves , boots and duck tape in places. Hot and no stings. I am in a white T shirt with bare arms, loose fitting pants with open legs and penny loafers. I do wear a bug baffler (thin loose netting over head used for night fishing and camping). The help tries to tell when I get a sting. Today they could not tell so aske d. I said around 10. I really enjoyed today despite the bees were starting to rob a bit towards the end of the day which increases stinging. For this post I looked and found 9 little red spots where the stinger went in. I believe I got stung twice on top of the head through the netting. When the bees are upset I get a few side of face and neck stings.No swelling or pain of any kind. I feel great! It is my opinion the beekeeper has to make a choice. Either like Aaron and every helper I have ever had to avoid all stings. OR To choose to maintain full immunity by getting 150-200 stings a year . If arthritis is in your future (like was in mine) perhaps the stings might be worth consideration? In between is dangerous ground in my opinion. Many may not agree which does not bother me! I firmly believe *low dose* is the problem when you hear of beekeeper and beekeeper family reactions. I carry an epipen not for me but for my help! I have used epinephrine once to save a part time beekeeper going in anaphylaxis. Also those which do get anaphylaxis from a bee sting will tell you they do NOT WAIT for symptoms to give the shot. They give as soon after being stung as possible. Interesting subject and covered many times on BEE-L. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:39:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sting reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Perhaps some of this is due to the site of the sting and whether or not it hits an artery/vein. A sting in artery is worse for obvious reasons! >newly hatched bees don't sting but haven't seen any studies that discuss age and venom amount/toxicity. Up to three days before the venom is noticed I have been told and what I have observed with stings of newly emerged bees in the honey house. Newly emerged bees are more curious than aggressive but when mashed on a frame inject the stinger. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:29:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Low dose is the problem. I have NEVER heard of a person getting the > number > of stings a *working daily* commercial beekeeper gets having a serious > reaction (150-200 per year). Gee, Bob, some of us have had that many a DAY!. Not a particularly good day, though. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:22:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen said: Gee, Bob, some of us have had that many a DAY!. Not a particularly good day, though. I think the most I have ever taken in a setting has been around 60. Once as a teenager I stumbled and fell on a hive coming off the back of a truck and my veil came off. Boy were the bees upset! Myself and another beekeeper ( name many would recognize) ran to a small pond and jumped in. I remember each time we came up for air I would get another sting. My mother said I had around 60 sting marks on me. Another time in almonds the last level of skids fell off the truck (I was driving) and I did not take time to put on a veil but went back to set things up for the swinger driver. I figured being a dark night they would be crawling but figured wrong as the swinger light made me a perfect target. Not sure exactly how many stings but zero swelling the next day. I walked to the truck box and got a suit out once this spring feeding bees in a light rain. Bees not in a good mood. I have read your diary page and wonder how you could get 150-200 stings at a setting in the English beesuit? They work AHb with those! About the only time I get stung in those suits is on the back when my back is wet from sweat and sticking to me. As I have said on lists before. I like to use a smoker and always carry a bee suit in the trucks in case needed. I do not do any serious bee work without a netting veil. I concede Allen has received more stings in a single setting than I have. Forget to put the bee suit in the truck Allen? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:09:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Powerlines In-Reply-To: <002f01c5ace4$59b12630$1f7d2a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Somewhat interesting reading at the link below, relating to controlled scrub land under power lines. > http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7910 Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:11:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Macho Beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have read your diary page and wonder how you could get 150-200 stings at > a setting in the English beesuit? Those are my staff wearing them. I often prefer shorts and a tee shirt and almost always wear sandals, but some of the worst stinging was through a suit. My wife counted 75 on my stomach alone that day, before she got tired of counting. My daughter and I had driven out to a distant comb honey yard and only realised the smoker was at home when we got there. I was stubborn and did the job, but not without getting well stung. She wisely stayed in the truck. > Forget to put the bee suit in the truck Allen? Not after the first time. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:20:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe & All, > I see a variety of worker cell sizes > in feral colonies I have collected, > Workers from my small cell colonies look very healthy > and normal looking to me. I have done no drone > culling or restricting of drone cells other than > regular beekeeping practices of removing frames with > high number of drone cells. > Someone correct me if I am wrong but isn't it regular beekeeping practice to cull all comb with drone cells on them from the brood nest unless a beekeeper were breeding queens for themselves or for sale? I think most beekeepers think that drones are only good for one purpose, that is mating with a queen. >From your collecting, and I assume examination of feral colonies, what is your observation of the natural percentage of drone cells in these colonies and where was the drone cells in relation to storage cells and worker cells? What were the measurements, range, and percentage of worker cells in these feral colonies? How many years have you been finding these feral colonies? What is the temper of these wild feral colonies compared to other races beekeepers today keep normally? Are there any other characteristics that of these wild feral colonies that stand out as important and beneficiary? One more question, how many truly wild feral colonies do you think you have located, how many of these have you transferred to langstroth hives, and how many of these are still alive and for how long? I ask because up here I have no opportunity to examine feral colonies because there are none here in Alaska. It fascinates me to hear of surviving feral colonies. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 02:34:42 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Allergies In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE09210142DDCC@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, Aaron Morris, you've got me laughing! "Janet bought into the song and dance. She went the desensitizing route, and although she didn't state so, I assume she was "cured" by modern medicine. Praise the process that cured her! It's pointless to ask if her experience may have been the same as mine (one bad reaction, never repeated) because she chose a different path. Praise the process that cured her! Beware being armed with the truth." Yes, I went the "controlled" desensitization route, but would I say I've been "cured" by modern medicine? Nah, I don't think so! It SEEMS to have worked for me, just as the many, many stings SEEM to have worked for others on this list. And even though you think it's pointless to ask (and I'm not sure why), yes, I had only one near-death experience, and that was four years ago. After the collapse and before the EMT's arrive and administered IV benadryl, oxygen and inhalation treatment I thought, "Boy, of all the ultimate causes of my demise, getting stung by a honeybee wouldn't have even made the list." Did my doctor or allergist tell me to give up beekeeping? Oddly enough, no. Have I been stung since then? Yes, lots. Anywhere near the levels some of the commercial folks on this list talk about...NO. I'm just a sideliner. The first time I got stung after the anaphylactic reaction, I panicked and administered the epipen and drove myself to the hospital, where I asked the triage nurse to keep an eye on me for a while. I have calmed down considerably since then, and although I keep an epipen with me, especially when I'm in one of my beeyards by myself or with no cell phone signal, my last few epipens have passed their expiration date. Most stings that I get now only produce a little swelling and redness, no anaphylaxis. I stay calm, and wait and see if there are any symptoms other than local to the sting site. Would I recommend that anyone else do what I do now? No...allergic reactions are just too variable. "As a degreed mathematician and statistician I am keenly aware that there are 4 kinds of lies in this world, lies, dammed lies, maps and statistics! ..... I would not be so bold as to insinuate that perhaps the AAAAI may have a self-serving interest in such a statistic." I'm really chuckling now because I took one course in statistics in college and all I remember from it, besides the fact that it was definitly not my cup of tea, was "if p then q". I must have somehow missed the point! And I'm crushed...do you really think the AAAAI would publish a self-serving statistic ;-) I'm shocked! And thanks, allen, for pointing out that much of what appears on the list is opinion, comment and observation. Thanks also to folks for other areas to look for information, i.e., the book suggestions, variability of venom strength due to age of bee (never occurred to me), etc. I still think that if a person suspects they are allergic, they should get tested and educated. I have one honey customer who believes her young son is allergic to honeybees and takes him to an accupuncturist for treatment while he is holding a bottle of bee venom. When I asked about the reaction, it sounded allergic to me. When I questioned her as to whether she was certain it was a honeybee, she had to admit she didn't know and had just assumed it was. I don't see as much danger in folks over-reacting and erring on the side of caution where severe allergic reactions might occur, what I view as pretty dumb is not even making the attempt to find out definitively what it is you think you're allergic to and dealing with it in a rational way. And now I'll shut up! Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 02:51:10 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Allergies In-Reply-To: <35b321a02af4ef8935aac73475eca091@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen wrote: >"The bee books say that for someone not used to being stung massive swelling can occur, sometimes increasing in size for 72 hours and even lasting for a week." .... Where in my post did I mention anything implying there was a way to predict?" I interpreted the part of the statement, "...for someone not used to being stung..." as implying that if someone is used to being stung, then the reaction would not be massive swelling, etc. Therefore, if someone just starts getting stung and gets used to it, they won't have a problem. I made the leap based on my personal experience (local reaction for years then anaphylaxis once) and on statements by an allergist. Sorry that my interpretation of your post was incorrect. Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:27:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Allergies Comments: cc: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Harrison wrote, "Either like Aaron and every helper I have ever had = to avoid all stings." Not that it matters, but for the record, I take my stings with the best = of them. I don't particularly enjoy them, but I don't wear a haz mat = suit to avoid them either. Sheriff bee suit, no gloves. I want a = sufficient quantity of stings to make sure I can handle a sufficient = quantity of stings. Aaron Morris - thinking a sting a day keeps the allergist away! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:32:28 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Small cell regression Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>My personal theory is that if you are in an area that lacks smaller drones you may have a tough time succeeding with small cell.... Do you believe 'smaller' drones have 'smaller' semen genetically? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:52:42 +0200 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Small cell regression In-Reply-To: <20050830.053253.1703.210008@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> > Do you believe 'smaller' drones have 'smaller' semen genetically? No lesser \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:52:18 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Yellow Jackets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>...coming in through little holes in the mortar.... put some Sevin powder in a soda bottle with a straw... then blow... They will generally carry it further into the hole by them selves. I'd be concerned about inserting pesticides into the walls of my dwelling. Structures breathe and some of the stuff is bound to get inside the living space. Particularly, in the winter time. I'm not saying you'll get ill right away but who knows the side effects overtime... Allergies and cancer seem to be on the rise... Modern homes especially are built air tight to conserve energy. However, there's a real concern about the effects of the outgassing of building materials into the air inside that people breathe. If you have holes in your structure that yellow jackets use to get in, why not just block them with mortar or caulk? Sure, they may find another hole to egress but then you block that one until they are trapped. To me, mechanical barriers beat chemical applications. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:01:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Small cell regression In-Reply-To: <20050830.053253.1703.210008@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: >>>My personal theory is that if you are in an area that lacks >>> >>> >smaller drones you may have a tough time succeeding with small cell.... > >Do you believe 'smaller' drones have 'smaller' semen genetically? > > > I heard something interesting recently. Inspections of colonies coming into Maine from Florida have shown that AHB is fairly widespread in Florida. AHB have been found in NY and Maine in managed colonies. AHB can winter over in cold climates when managed by beekeepers. AHB have been found at elevation in Arizona, so they tolerate some cold even when not managed. If you are looking for smaller drones, they are now out there. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:23:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: AHB in Maine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill Truesdell wrote: >>>AHB have been found in NY and Maine in managed colonies<<<< I'd like to know more about this Bill. Is your source written somewhere = or personal communication. I have no doubts, I just want to know more.=20 Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:38:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Small cell regression In-Reply-To: <20050830.053253.1703.210008@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: > Do you believe 'smaller' drones have 'smaller' semen > genetically? > > Waldemar > Or.... Do bees raised in small cell colonies make smaller queen cells and thus produce smaller queens? Is it genetics or environment? My feeling is that the genetics remain the same, it's the environment that produces queens that regress to the smaller cell. Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and wet Mobile, Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:55:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Yellow Jackets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A potential problem with killing yellow jackets *inside* your walls is the= =20 effects of the decaying protein! I once gave a lady the 'home option' of spraying inside the hole at night= =20 with nothing but soapy water. While the solution worked and killed all the= =20 yellow jackets, about 3 weeks later I got a call about a 'decaying meat'=20 odor. I went over, and her living room smelled like someone killed a cat an= d=20 put it in the walls. It took some 6-8 weeks for the odor to go away. I now advise 'leaving them alone' until frost if they are inside walls of = a=20 house, and explain why just in case someone else advises killing them at=20 night. Lloyd --=20 Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:09:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/08/05 15:51:41 GMT Daylight Time, alaskabeekeeper@HOTMAIL.COM writes: <> >From what I've seen, bees will raise drones in drone cells for preference, but will raise them quite happily in worker cells if they have to.extra drone comb can certainly lead to the raising of extra drones, but lack of it won't stop a strong colony from raising as many as it wants. Has anyone else seen this? Personally I wouldn't wantcolonies to be without them, except of course in the case of the odd one with a misbred queen. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:14:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Allergies In-Reply-To: <006201c5acfa$38bae0e0$09bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The notion that infrequent bee stings induce allergies (implied from these posts) and multiple stings do not is patently wrong. Ok, I've suffered from allergies all my life, was one of the first peope ever given desensitizing shots (five years of them). My dad was severely allergic to vespid stings. Fortunately, I'm not. Ok, our crews over the last 30 years have had the occasional person become allergic (shortness of breath, heart pounding, off to the emergency room). Comments: 1) The number one scenario for this, in our experience, has been novice beekeepers who don't wear gloves (because their packages are mild tempered) often get a surprise when the population expands rapidly. Suddenly the colony that could barely keep things going and couldn't spare many bees for guard duty, now has lots of angry bees. Result, multiple stings and a 'sick' beekeeper (soaking in the tub, swollen, upset) -- but not having an allergic reaction. A very high proportion of these people will have an allergic reaction next time that they get stung -- assuming some days have past since the initial sting event. 2) However, as Bob notes, we've also had people go into an allergic response after no more than 3 stings. But, that doesn't mean that multiple or frequent stings will NOT lead to an allergic reaction. People tend to either get less reactive OR more reactive with successive stings, whether accumulated over a long time, or in one massive dose. 3) People sometimes have unexpected reactions. We took one of our colleagues to the emergency room this year. He was one of my fellow scientists, who worked bees for 30 years. Many years ago, he had rather pronounced swelling from a sting. Over last four years, he's been stung, no reaction -- just a red spot and small welt. He took 1 sting in the lab this summer. Came over to my office, said he felt funny, had been stung just a few minutes before. He looked flushed, said his lips were tingling, felt a bit nauseous. I gave him a couple of anti-histamines. Five minutes later, his student came running in, said he'd passed out, was convulsing! He came to by the time the emergency folks arrived, started to walk out with them, just about passed out again. Fortunately, by the time he got to the ER, the antihistamines were kicking in -- they ran some tests, monitored him, and released him with a box of Epi pens. 4) Low exposure can lead to sensitivity, but that's more likely to be the kind of really low exposure that a beekeeper's family experiences (dirty clothing), etc. A Missoula M.D. did some of the pioneer work on this phenomenon. Take home, wash your clothes at the warehouse. Keep your truck clean. Low level exposures over long periods of time can result in heightened sensitivity. I had a friend who was a mechanic. Years of exposure to grease left him unable to even ride in a car. I've seen similar with entomologists working in an insectary (dusts, chemicals from the insects). 5) Like Bob H., my resistance to bee stings is high, and I don't want that to change. It drops a bit over the winter, if fully protective by early summer, so I don't go out of my way to avoid bee stings. However, I wouldn't want to quit for some years, then start again -- never know which way my body might decide to go upon re-introduction. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:02:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Tamas Subject: Re: A quick way to find a queenless hive In-Reply-To: <014701c5a9fc$18fe2a10$682765d5@roneefje> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Ron/Eefje van Mierlo, About drones in October. I can't tell you for sure but Steve Taber,mentioned in one of his articles(or perhaps in his book "Breeding Super Bees") that he checked the hives for drones in winter and he find drones in winter time.Hope my memory is good. In the same time happened to me to find drones in late October here in Romania. Sincerely George On 8/25/05, Ron/Eefje van Mierlo wrote: > > >> Also, in Sweden you will have a hard time finding any drones > in the month October, > Ron > > Original Message: > >> A quick way to find a queenless hive in October is to look for > >> the hive with all the drones...... > > At other times during the year, if pollen apatties are put on all.. > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:18:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeff Stevens Subject: Re: Yellow Jackets In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I now advise 'leaving them alone' until frost if they are inside walls of a > house, and explain why just in case someone else advises killing them at > night. I think "leaving them alone" is excellent advice. As beekeepers we are constantly educating the public that honeybees rarely sting. More likely it's some other stinging insect. At the same time, we really should recognize the importance of these "other stinging insects". Most wasps hunt insects to feed their brood. They are also important pollinators in their own right as many adult wasps feed on nectar. They can do quite a job at insect control. In addition, as hobbyist beekeepers, we are more inclined to let be wasp nests so we can show our visitors the differences between wasps and honeybees. On occasion, the wasp population can become quite significant and they begin attacking our honeybees as food for wasp brood. At this point we take action. We generally have bald-faced hornets, Western yellow jackets, European paper wasps, and mud-daubers in our area. Bald-faced hornets are aggressive, but just need to be left alone and observed. The same with yellow jackets. I've seen neither harass our honeybees. While an inch and a quarter long mud-dauber looks menacing, they hunt spiders. They paralyze them and deposit them inside a cell along with an egg that ultimately hatches and feeds on it. The European paper wasps are the worst in terms of bothering our honey bees. The are very docile wasps. It takes a *lot* of harassing to upset them to the point where they will sting. They hunt our honey bees in great numbers though. In late summer it gets to the point where the European paper wasps actually aggravate our honey bees to the point where the bees become generally more aggressive. As a result, I've found the need to control the European paper wasp population through the summer by hosing their nests down from our eaves. I leave the yellow jackets though. :^) These are just some thoughts. Unless you have problems with with significant numbers of stinging insects actually *in* your house or within a few feet of your front door, or on the swing set, we can just let them be. -Jeff -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:43:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: W.Va. Beekeepers Fall Conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable W.Va. Beekeepers Fall Conference October 14-15 Jackson=E2=80=99s Mill, W.Va. Contact David Freese, Webmaster, 267-6188. http://www.wvbe= ekeepers.org/FallMeeting2005.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:15:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Sting reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > A sting in artery is worse for obvious reasons! Is this true? Although this statement sounds logical at first, I can find no evidence to back it up. Can you justify it, Bob? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:19:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Small cell regression In-Reply-To: <20050830.053253.1703.210008@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: > Do you believe 'smaller' drones have 'smaller' semen > genetically? > No, I am basing my statment on a study done by: JOSEPH R. COELHO and ORLEY R. TAYLOR, Jr. "Size-related Mating Preferences in Honey Bee Drones." In the discussion is written. "It is possible that differential mechanical and tactile cues resulted in assortative mating by drones. The drone's first two pairs of legs grasp the model abdomen dorsally, while the last pair of legs grasp it laterally and ventrally (Gary and Marston, 1971). Small drones may have been unable to grasp the larger OD models properly in order to copulate successfully, or they may not have received the proper tactile stimuli for copulation to be elicited. The same might be said of large drones mating with small OD models. Size matching could occur through cues for mounting position. If drones use alignment cues from the anterior portion of the queen, small drones could be too far forward on the queen abdomen and the large drones too far back for copulation to be completed." "No matter what proximate factors account for assortative mating by drones, this mating pattern could have powerful ecological and evolutionary consequences. A limited degree of positive assortative mating has been observed between subspecies of Apis mellifera (Kerr and Bueno, 1970; Koeniger et al., 1989). Differences in the sizes of subspecies are well documented (Daly and Balling, 1978; Rinderer et al., 1985; Ruttner, 1987). It is conceivable that mating behavior of drones based on size is partly responsible for assortative mating and maintenance of races of honey bees." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:45:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Sting reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/08/05 23:42:49 GMT Daylight Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: > A sting in artery is worse for obvious reasons!> Do we actually have na artery anywhere which is close enough to the surface to be penetrated by a sting? Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:28:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Yellow Jackets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff Stevens wrote: > I think "leaving them alone" is excellent advice. I wonder if most people would tend to be as merciful to poisonous snakes and spiders? Probably not, yet according to this website http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/3112/router.asp bites from poisonous spiders kill less than 3 people per year, bites from poisonous snakes kill less than 10, but bee stings kill about 40 people a year and 15-20 of those bee deaths are due to yellow jacket stings. And according to this website http://www.acaai.org/public/background/insects.htm "Experts also estimate that many more deaths may occur that are never formally attributed to an insect sting allergy." Paul Cherubini -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:33:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Malone wrote: > From your collecting, and I assume examination of > feral colonies, what is > your observation of the natural percentage of drone > cells in these colonies > and where was the drone cells in relation to storage > cells and worker cells? Drone cells in mature feral nests from casual observation seem to be just under 20%. But drone cells in soem of these mature feral colonies can be located 2 or 3 feet from the broodnest, and I notice that the queen will travel the length over empty comb to lay the drone there. > What were the measurements, range, and percentage of > worker cells in these > feral colonies? 4.9 to 5.2 or so. From casual observation percentage of 4.9 cells was about 40% and sizes varied up from there. Dennis Merrell made a nice study of the cell sizes from a picture of one of my feral nests. How many years have you been finding > these feral colonies? I started focusing on collecting ferals after talking with Dee in 2000. So for about 5 years I placed high emphasis on collecting ferals. > What is the temper of these wild feral colonies > compared to other races > beekeepers today keep normally? I compare them to mild mannered Italians, but responsive to smoke like caucasians. Are there any other > characteristics that of > these wild feral colonies that stand out as > important and beneficiary? Mite resistance, extreme overall good health, very nice brood patterns especially in the woodland ferals, more propolis, easily calmed by smoke, more pollen in the broodnest, and good pre flow buildups. One > more question, how many truly wild feral colonies do > you think you have > located, This is a very good question. I can only attempt to assign probability that they are feral based on the evidence available. I don't care what ship they may have came over here on in the 1600's and I don't care if they just happened to escape from some careless beekeepers apiary 5 years ago. I am looking for bees that have lived without mans hand for several years and have the least influence from nearby domestic colonies and treatments. I would say during 00-03 2 or 3 out of ten swarms and one out of five cutouts are what I would call true ferals. But, ferals were still recovering in numbers then and were few and far. But during 04-05 I started trapping in woodlands and am having good success. I'm estimating a majority of these are ferals. how many of these have you transferred to > langstroth hives, and how > many of these are still alive and for how long? I was regressed to small cell in 2002, I have 20 colonies, 10 have been living without treatments since 2002 I'm finding that I collect about 10 to 15 swarms (not from my colonies ;>) per season ans ascess them in singles. I will generally will have selected out half of these colonies by September. Some just don't start up on small cell well and I destroy these, and the others may not show too much domestic qualities for my taste. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:34:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Julie Mayer Subject: Re: Sting reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Do we actually have an artery anywhere which is close enough to the >surface to be penetrated by a sting? Regards, Robert Brenchley< No. John Mayer West-Cenmtral, MO -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:18:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Someone correct me if I am wrong but isn't it regular beekeeping practice > to > cull all comb with drone cells on them from the brood nest unless a > beekeeper were breeding queens for themselves or for sale? This may be true of a few anal control-freak beekeepers, but I can assure you that most beekeepers I know consider around 10% drone comb in the brood chamber to be quite proper, especially if the DC is around the periphery. For one thing, eliminating all drone comb simply entices the bees to replace some worker comb with drone comb. For another, most good beekeepers are trying to work with the bees and avoid excessive interference. > I think most beekeepers think that drones are only good for one purpose, > that is mating with a queen. Really? That is not the impression I get from reading BEE-L. Looking at the subject line, I'm wondering how various people define "Natural Beekeeping". For one thing, can anyone using foundation claim to be a "Natural" beekeeper? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:59:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Just Wondering MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My previous post about bee (drone) brood development under reduced temperature conditions didn't get a twitch. Am surprised no one has any thoughts on this. I hope it's not a moral issue, drone brood as a food supplement. Lots of cultures eat eggs (embryos) so I assume that is not an issue. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:30:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sting reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > A sting in artery is worse for obvious reasons! I can find no evidence to back it up. Can you justify it, Bob? Dr. Steve Carlston MD told us at his presentation at the ABF convention in Kansas City ( bee stings and venom) a sting in an artery could cause more of a problem (anaphylaxis) than a sting in other areas of the body. The same question was asked and he said a sting could easily penetrate the large veins of the arm on people with pronounced veins. All I know. I can't remember getting a vein sting. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:04:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Noble Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Waggle's excellent explanation of his small cell experiences, and the discussion in general, make me wonder if it would make sense to simply keep a number of top bar hives for the purpose of "naturalizing" the bee size/cell size factor over a period of say two to four years. Then, assuming that this "naturalization" would in fact take place, you could take some of those colonies and transfer them to production equipment with small cell foundation. It seems like this could potentially achieve regression without the big losses that have been talked about. Has anyone tried this? As someone pointed out, this doesn't seem to be so much a genetic factor as it is a matter of the bees just acclimating back to a more natural condition given their exsisting genetic predisposition. I understand that climate is also a factor in the size of cells bees build when left to their own devices. This means that the cell size that is optimal for the Lusbys may not be so for us Northerners. Steve Noble -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:00:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Yellow Jackets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Cherubini gave this link: > http://www.acaai.org/public/background/insects.htm Which has this priceless advice on avoiding stings: "...experts say the best advice is simple: don't look, smell or act like a flower." Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:10:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & All, Thanks for your reply. It is good to know that there are some beekeepers who appreciate the drone. > For another, most good beekeepers are > trying to work with the bees and avoid excessive interference. > This would be nice to believe but not from reading Bee-L most of the time. There is a lot of talk of interference of all sorts on Bee-L, treating with this substance or another. I understand that just keeping bees period is a treatment and an interference but keeping bees is what we are doing. > > I think most beekeepers think that drones are only good for one purpose, > > that is mating with a queen. > > Really? That is not the impression I get from reading BEE-L. > Could you explain a few other benefits of the drone besides mating? When listening to some beekeepers explaining the role of the drone to the general public or a new beekeeper I hear all to often that there sole purpose is to mate with the queens. I think they have other roles in addition. > Looking at the subject line, I'm wondering how various people define > "Natural Beekeeping". For one thing, can anyone using foundation claim to > be a "Natural" beekeeper? > That is a good question. Yes, I do think you can be a "Natural" beekeeper using foundation within the natural range of worker cell sizes. One thing I am doing presently to be more of a "Natural" beekeeper is the use of one inch starter strips on frames, using foundationless frames, and using a slightly closer spacing center to center of comb. After seeing what the bees do on their own I may soon do away with using foundation. There really might not be a need for foundation. I do think the bees know what they what to do. I define "Natural Beekeeping" as keeping bees as close to natural as a beekeeper can manage. Trying to only put into a hive what is needed and not putting anything into the hive the bees would not find in their natural environment and at levels they naturally have normally. Besides nails, wire, and a little glue to hold things together that leaves only wood and maybe bees wax. No feeding period, that may be imposable but I find it can be done with most colonies most years. If it can not be done with a colony I feel their genetics can just as well disappear and not be kept. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:16:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Sting reactions In-Reply-To: <96.2e9d19df.30463b7c@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT It's also ok to donate blood after receiving a bee sting. That's what our local blood bank told me. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:39:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe & All, Thanks for your reply, very interesting how the natural hive functions. > 4.9 to 5.2 or so. From casual observation percentage > of 4.9 cells was about 40% and sizes varied up from > there. > There were none smaller than 4.9mm, say 4.8mm down to 4.6mm maybe? > I started focusing on collecting ferals after talking > with Dee in 2000. So for about 5 years I placed high > emphasis on collecting ferals. > So your not a novice feral colony collector? Your casual observations of feral bees are probably very valuable to many beekeepers. > I compare them to mild mannered Italians, but > responsive to smoke like caucasians. > They sound very workable for many. > Mite resistance, extreme overall good health, very > nice brood patterns especially in the woodland ferals, > more propolis, easily calmed by smoke, more pollen in > the broodnest, and good pre flow buildups. > Can I ask if you monitor mites and by what method? Do these characteristics maintain themselves after transference to your equipment? Woodland ferals meaning?, some distance from domestic/managed colonies, and if so how far away? I see propolis as being highly beneficiary along with the broodnest priming. How is the honey production compared to non-feral or other races by percentage.? > 10 have been living without treatments > since 2002 > So you have not yet reached the five year threshold for surviving varroa that many believe is needed to claim complete survival success? It does sound like you are doing very great and success is just around the corner. Your success is something for to keep an eye open for. It's good to know all your bees did not die and you are not no longer a beekeeper. > I will generally will have selected out half > of these colonies by September. > Do you keep these in separate yards from your survivors? . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:44:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Small cell regression MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe & All, > No, I am basing my statment on a study done by: > JOSEPH R. COELHO and ORLEY R. TAYLOR, Jr. > "Size-related Mating Preferences in Honey Bee Drones." Here is the URL for all interested to read; http://balder.prohosting.com/~starrier/SizeRelatedMatingPreferences.html . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:00:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: bees and allergy In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050829104515.02e09ec0@selway.umt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jerry: Thanks for recommending the book ‘Insects and Allergy and What to Do About Them’. I found a hardcover copy on Alibris in good condition for $2.95 and ordered it on your recommendation. I’m always looking for good reference books to add to my bee library. Usually I get books on interlibrary loans first before purchasing, but for $2.95 for hardcover in reportedly good condition, I bit the bullet and bought it immediately. Wow, $2.95--what a deal! Thanks again. $2.95! Regards, Dick Allen Oh, did I mention the shipping was $3.49? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:36:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Just Wondering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 31/08/05 09:14:23 GMT Daylight Time, B_Line@MSN.COM writes: <> Not only that, but drone larvae are very useful fishing bait. There could even be a potential market if a regular supply could be maintained. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:47:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Just Wondering In-Reply-To: <006401c5add7$f86771f0$6500a8c0@BLINE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hehe... I bet you generated more twitches than you might suspect. *I* twitched when I read it and I'm familiar with the practice of eating brood. You just didn't generate any mail. I'm surprised too. I'd be surprised if there was a moral issue with anyone on this list- a squeamish issue perhaps, but not moral. Perhaps a number of people read it and wondered "why didn't *I* think of that?" I guess I don't know what to say except "go for it". I had planned on trying drone-comb removal as a varroa control measure this year, but didn't get around to it- perhaps next year. I did ponder whether there was a market for the larvae rather than giving them back to the bees (do the bees eat or discard the brood?) but I filed that rumination for further chewing on some cold winter day. I can't comment on your questions about ventilation etc., I just don't know. Anyone who finds yet another honey bee product to sell deserves congratulations, and encouragement. Congratulations. Keep up the good work :) George- At 10:59 PM 8/30/05 -0400, you wrote: >My previous post about bee (drone) brood development under reduced >temperature conditions didn't get a twitch. Am surprised no one has any >thoughts on this. --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:47:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harold Rogers Subject: bee stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To you asking about bee stings in the artery yes it can be very bad. I have had two times stung in the main artery in the neck. If it wasn't for my wife calling 911 I wouldn't be here today. She saved my life twice. My doctor told me get rid of the bees and get an apipen for future if any thing else might sting it could be fatal. The doctor was very serious abot getting far away from bees, or any other stinging insect. Maybe not every one would have reactions from the stings, but I spent quite a few hours in emergency rooms. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:24:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike & Janet Brisson Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar....I'm not a scientist Comments: cc: Randy Oliver , Tom Dowda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I am still excited about using powdered sugar as a treatment. I just removed the sugar from our 2nd out of 3 treatments and the mites mixed in sugar are so much less then when we first started in the spring. Two of our hives are still showing a few 100 mites in the sugar. Some of our hives had so few mites in the sugar, I am assuming that our mid-summer knock down was very effective, not that it didn't work. On those hives, I am showing very few mites on the sticky boards. I am assuming that by monitoring the natural mite fall, I can determine if the infestation of mites are growing or shrinking. Last week, between the two treatments, I slid in a sticky board for 4 days and did a count. The counts are very much lower then early summer. Through posting on other bee forums, there were questions about the cornstarch (non-caking agaent) in powdered sugar being bad for the bees. Many people wrote in and said such small amounts shouldn't be a problem, but that did alert me to add stomach problems like Nosema and Dysentery to my watch list that includes Deformed Wing Virus. I've been watching closely the front of the hives for disoriented bees and diarrhea (and deformed bees). I haven't seen any problems but I will report them. Also, the powdered sugar is extremely easy (see our pics on www.countryrubes.com) to use and cheap. I did contact my bee mentor and local bee master, Randy Oliver and sent him Bill's comments and he did agree with his points of view: Hi Janet I finally read this letter (following) after I spoke with you on the phone. Bill makes some great points. The studies he refers to are out there for the reading (and citation on your website). I, too, would like to see the results of using powdered sugar after a full year. Results being colony size, general health, mite level compared to other colonies in the area, and honey production. 'I could use powdered sugar just as Janet is doing. I predict that my bees would be fine come spring. I might report excellent results over the next two or three years. After that, I would probably be in trouble' Bill makes a great point here. The proof the pudding is in the tasting. Will you still have healthy colonies in two years? Your mite counts are a good indicator that you will. I will be especially interested in your October counts. I'm optimistic for you. However, if you want to make claims to a scientist, you're going to have to back them up with good data from a controlled trial. If you want to make claims to Joe Doe beekeeper, you should prove that you have kept colonies healthy for at least two years using ONLY powdered sugar and screens for mite control. Randy is a scientist, teaches science classes up here, and offered to set me up with a program with control hives, timetables, stressing bees, and not use anything but powdered sugar. There are two scientist working on powdered sugar for mite removal from hives, Dr. Fakhimzadeh and Tom Dowda who's Dowda Method takes apart his hive and dusts each frame. Dr. Fakhimzadeh spoke about his methods at Apimodia in South Africa in 2001. I will see if I can find out if his bees are still healthy using powdered sugar for these last 4 years and report on that I am going to leave the experimenting and controls to those two. If something happens and the mite count increases dramatically, I want the option of doing something, like Sucorcide or OA. I love our bees too much to watch them collapse. I just want to post my results, for beekeepers who are waiting for the temperature to be right, or for their queens to stop laying, before the mite build-up is so much that their bees health are compromised before they can do their treatments. Maybe this method doesn't knock down enough mites for everyone, but its sure working for us. Sincerely, Janet Brisson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:28:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: bee stings MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: Harold Rogers Date: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 7:47 am Subject: [BEE-L] bee stings > To you asking about bee stings in the artery yes it can be very bad. > I have had two times stung in the main artery in the neck. > If it wasn't for my wife calling 911 I wouldn't be here today. > She saved my life twice. I do not doubt that you had a serious reaction, and I am sorry that anyone has to go through something like that, but the main arteries of the neck are far too deep for a stinger to reach. In fact I have been trying to figure out, excepting for perhaps ankles and wrists, where an artery lies under thin enough skin to get an intra-artery dose of bee venom. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:24:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve said: It seems like this could potentially achieve regression without the big losses that have been talked about. Has anyone tried this? Small cell *regression* has been a nightmare for many to gain what? If you read D. Murrell's web page he explains about the 4.9mm myth that started the whole thing. Stories abound all over the bee lists of small cell failures! Dick Allen & I have stepped forward to say our research was a failure and waste of time! How about a few others giving their findings? Please limit the comments to those that have had bees on small cell more than a season and have not used a treament of any kind. Most swarms will last well into the second year if not infested when hived. Many people are keeping bees successfully *without* all the expense, labor & grief with regression. My bees look great! Look like they looked before varroa! Clean comb did the trick on the non varroa tolerant bees and varroa tolerant bees solved the varroa problems. Non so named *natural beekeeping*: I finnished yesterday pulling the last supers off my non varroa tolerant bees. Low varroa loads but will need a soft treatment. The extra honey production over the Russians would easily justify the labor and expense of a soft legal treatment. The varroa tolerant bees will again not need treatment and will remain supered for fall flows. We have got three approved methods of control in the U.S.. The formic pads,ApiLife var & sucrocide yet the lists are full of methods that are not safe for the beekeeper and have drawbacks. beekeepers seem to never learn from past mistakes. As someone pointed out, this doesn't seem to be so much a genetic factor as it is a matter of the bees just acclimating back to a more natural condition given their exsisting genetic predisposition. I understand that climate is also a factor in the size of cells bees build when left to their own devices. This means that the cell size that is optimal for the Lusbys may not be so for us Northerners. Steve Noble -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:43:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Natural Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In his book "Pheromones of Social Bees" JB Free states that if you take = away drones the bees will build more. If you give them extra drones they = remove some. Apparently this balance is part of the hives blueprint. On natural: It strikes me that my bees think small cell foundation is = unnatural. They vote by building all kinds of crazy stuff. I use starter = strips too. I think they draw out what they need at that time of year = (or that week), In that location and time of flow. Any comments on how = you get comb drawn? Dickm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:21:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ross Langlands Subject: Re: Allergies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Poor old GPs like myself have taken a lot of stick on this > thread regarding > their inability to diagnose allergies. > Briefly bee stings can induce:- > 1. Local allergic reactions. These are defined as an area of redness > exceeding 5 cm at the site of a sting. > 2. Anaphylaxis. These include all reactions anywhere else in > the body and > may proceed to anaphylactic shock and death. This too is an allergic > reaction > 3. Toxic reactions. These are dependent on dose of toxin i.e number of > stings and can produce fever headaches, vomiting, collapse > and death. This > can occur with an excess of 25 stings. > 1 can lead to 2, but not necessarily. 3 can be associated > with 1 and 2. > > Jerry speaks a lot of sense when he says "The notion that > infrequent bee > stings induce allergies (implied from these > posts) and multiple stings do not is patently wrong." The > first sting can > produce little reaction and it's only subsequent stings that > produce an > allergic reaction either local or anaphylactic. > He's also right to point out that "People tend to either get > less reactive > OR more reactive with successive > stings, whether accumulated over a long time, or in one massive dose." > He also states that reactions can be unpredictable which is > also spot on. > > On this side of the pond allergists are not big business. In > fact there are > no medically qualified allergists in Scotland that I know of. > Desensitisation has not been readily available in General > Practice since the > 80s because of deaths due to anaphylaxis following the > injections and the > lack of evidence that they were effective. Also there were no > financial > rewards for treating patients with desensitisation therapy. > Prevention of > allergic reactions is not seen here as possible or a > priority. Treatment of > local reactions remains antihistamines and steroid creams; of > anaphylaxis, > epipens, steroids, fluids and antihistamines and of toxicity general > supportive measures > > I hope this offers a little clarity and some support for your > local GP. > > Ross Langlands > > ********************************************************************** > The information contained in this message may be confidential > or legally privileged and is intended for the addressee only, > If you have received this message in error or there are any > problems please notify the originator immediately. The > unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this > message is strictly forbidden. > ********************************************************************** > -- ********************************************************************** The information contained in this message may be confidential or legally privileged and is intended for the addressee only, If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. ********************************************************************** -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:07:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve said: It seems like this could potentially achieve regression without the big losses that have been talked about. Has anyone tried this? Small cell *regression* has been a nightmare for many to gain what? If you read D. Murrell's web page he explains about the 4.9mm myth that started the whole thing. Stories abound all over the bee lists of small cell failures! Dick Allen & I have stepped forward to say our research was a failure and waste of time! How about a few others giving their findings? Please limit the comments to those that have had bees on small cell more than a season and have not used a treament of any kind. Most swarms will last well into the second year if not infested when hived. Many people are keeping bees successfully *without* all the expense, labor & grief with regression. My bees look great! Look like they looked before varroa! Clean comb did the trick on the non varroa tolerant bees and varroa tolerant bees solved the varroa problems. Non so named *natural beekeeping*: I finnished yesterday pulling the last supers off my non varroa tolerant bees. Low varroa loads but will need a soft treatment. The extra honey production over the Russians would easily justify the labor and expense of a soft legal treatment. The varroa tolerant bees will again not need treatment and will remain supered for fall flows. We have got three approved methods of control in the U.S.. The formic pads,ApiLife var & sucrocide yet the lists are full of methods that are not safe for the beekeeper and have drawbacks. beekeepers seem to never learn from past mistakes. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:32:47 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erwan Cassard Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar....I'm not a scientist In-Reply-To: <008b01c5ae26$f1ef9dd0$af8b5142@D7DNF821> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Mike or Janet, how much sugar do you put for one hive? Thanks. Erwan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:38:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lanfeust Subject: Frame of pollen in autumn In-Reply-To: <43145898.3090608@suscom-maine.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a hive that collected a full box of pollen (10 frames). Those frames are all in the bottom box, so I wonder if I should let them for winter or if I should replace them by empty frames to be filled with syrup. Would that pollen box be detrimental for wintering ? Hervé, laval, Qc, Canada -- Lanfeust eauairsols@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - I mean, what is it about a decent email service? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:49:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lanfeust Subject: Small cell management In-Reply-To: <003601c5ae26$fd60d8a0$23bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Firstly, just a general question for "sucessfull sideliners" : how much time per super (full size) do you spend in average for uncapping and extraction ? What is the proportion of this time in your total operation time ? Secondly, when using small cell, ULB management and reduced frame to frame space, how does that time increase ? I tried small cells building on a couple of nucs this year and I found uncapping time intensive with that kind of management. I would like to have indicators of what could be a reasonnable time to allocate to uncapping and extraction. Hervé -- Lanfeust eauairsols@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software or over the web -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:57:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong In-Reply-To: <003601c5ae26$fd60d8a0$23bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Clean comb did the trick on the non varroa tolerant bees and varroa >tolerant bees solved the varroa problems. > > I would venture that this sentence says more about how to keep bees than most, and is probably our greatest failing as beekeepers- clean comb. Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of old comb? I know that Jerry's studies show lots of stuff ends up in the hive that has the potential to do harm. Plus there is the stuff that we add. Natural beekeeping would have as a key feature the use of new comb. In nature, bees swarm, colonies die and wax moth come in and clean house. We need to do the same. Even science agrees with that. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:05:22 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: bee stings MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I believe there are some critical nerves around nose, mouth, eyes, that are very vulnerable to insect stings, as well. Not something to play with, if you have any doubt at all. Eunice -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:14:10 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar....I'm not a scientist Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Some of our hives had so few mites in the sugar... by monitoring the natural mite fall, I can determine if the infestation of mites are growing or shrinking. I did not get when you apply the powder sugar. One limitation or possible misinterpretation stems from the fact that most mites will be [capped?] in brood cells during the brood-rearing season. As I understand it, sugar dislodges only mites on the adult bees on the frames which is still beneficial. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:22:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bee yard Subject: Re: drones at looser ends In-Reply-To: <430C9027.60901@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings! Maybee your hives:but not mine. Got plenty of drones. If fact,the NW carnie queens are still "producing" a limited amount of=20 drones. all the best, Herb/Norma Bee www.mainebee.com On 8/24/05, Bill Truesdell wrote:=20 >=20 > Ron/Eefje van Mierlo wrote: >=20 > > And still another one: > > Here in my location in Sweden all the hives have been without drones=20 > > for two weeks, they started four weeks ago. >=20 > Add Maine to the list. >=20 > Bill Truesdell > Bath, Maine >=20 > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L = for rules, FAQ and other info --- > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >=20 --=20 www.mainebee.com www.stonycritters.com "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from th= e=20 experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination= =20 to do so.=20 " Douglas Adams" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:33:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike & Janet Brisson Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar....I'm not a scientist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We use 1/2 pound on each hive. Its important that you have a way of removing the sugar. If you have a closed bottom board, you can put a piece of cardboard in and plan on removing it in a few hours. Janet > Hi, Mike or Janet, how much sugar do you put for one hive? > Thanks. > Erwan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:39:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Frame of pollen in autumn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>a hive that collected a full box of pollen (10 frames)...all in the bottom box... Interesting. I've not seen an entire box full of just pollen, especially in the bottom box. Is it intermixed with honey? If your bees are still raising brood they will use up quite a bit of this pollen. Especially if sources of pollen diminish. >>Would that pollen box be detrimental for wintering ? I see pollen and honey stored in the same frames in varying proportions. Have not seen extra pollen to be a problem for overwintering, as long as there's enough stored honey, and the pollen will be very beneficial during the spring build-up. Is the pollen topped off with honey and capped? Cured pollen, or bee bread, keeps well through the winter although pollen quality degrades over time. Some plant pollen is better than other. If it's packed, dry pollen, I've seen it grow mold in the late winter/ early spring in our humid Long Island, if the bees are not able to maintain a low moisture level on frames outside of the cluster. Bees will then raze entire sections of molded pollen cells - both pellets of pollen and wax - to the foundation. The pellets and debris will litter the bottom board until they are removed outside. The combs will have to be re-drawn in these areas. If you feed syrup, and don't disturb the nest, the bees will arrange the stores in the best way [for their cluster size and location in the hive]. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:57:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Frame of pollen in autumn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I have a hive that collected a full box of pollen (10 frames). Those frames are all in the bottom box, so I wonder if I should let them for winter or if I should replace them by empty frames to be filled with syrup. For sure pull the frames of pollen down to what you think the bees will need in spring. We see the situation in Missouri in certain years. >Would that pollen box be detrimental for wintering ? Possibly. The bees need carbs to *heat* the nest and not protein which is what pollen is. I do not know your wintering needs but I suspect in Canada a full box of pollen would be a problem if you winter in two deeps. It would be in Missouri. Save the frames of pollen for spring splits. We pull frames of honey in spring also. Especially with the Russians & carniolans! Many claim their Russian & Carniolans are slow to start in spring. Duh! The queen needs some empty comb to lay. Give her room and she will lay when fresh pollen comes in if not before. How can she lay if the box is full of frames of honey or especially pollen!. The Russians /carniolans winter on a small cluster and it takes time for the bees to USE enough stores for a large scale brood production unless you give the bees room! Leave alone beekeeping is for *natural beekeepers* . Chase those swarms! I am grumpy today (hope note as bad as my friend George I.) as I am working on the bee farm B------g at the help today! The bee yard is my favorite place to be on a beautiful day like today! "Swarming often blamed on race should be blamed on beekeeper in spring for leaving the hive honey and pollen bound!" Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:06:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: A Question: Why Dud Queen Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following message came in the other day and I thought that I'd share it with the list. Maybe someone has some ideas? --- begin message -- I'm a beekeeper running 700 colonies... Our major source of income is blueberry pollination which I consider to be both a curse and a blessing. In the winter of 2001-2002, I lost over 500 colonies to what was attributed to Apistan resistance ...it was time to pick up the pieces and change management techniques which involved among other things equipping all colonies with screened bottom boards, constant monitoring and queen rearing from the surviving stock. Prior to this loss, I requeened faithfully with commercial queens and quite frankly was not entirely satisfied with the product I used coumophos for one season and have relied on formic acid since then with a late fall clean up using oxalic (evaporator) with good results. Winter losses have been in the 4% and 8% range for the 2003 and 2004 winters. I have been using the Jenter kit to obtain larvae of the correct age and then use a modified swarm box as a starter for 24 hours after which the cells are transferred to the second hive body above an excluder for finishing. I've been getting excellent queens that are well adapted to my area's harsh conditions and my question is why am I getting a higher than normal percentage of dud cells this year. The cells look good when transferring them to the finisher and also when counting them on the 4th day after transfer but when they are harvested, I find up to 20% are not viable. These cells are capped over and have a brownish tip but otherwise look normal. I hold them up to the sunlight and if I cannot see a pupae I cull them and open them up to find an off white larvae turning to brown. The mess does not string out and if left long enough it turns rubbery. If I miss one, I find it in the nuc when checking mating and It has not been torn down Colonies used as breeders and as starter/finishers have no visible signs of sacbrood or any other brood diseases and mite loads are low to non-existent. There is not a problem in the id of bad cells but it is a pain in the butt to try and plan 6 frame nucs requirements for cell harvest day. I wish I had of thought of taking some digital pictures to help you in forming an opinion but this is not an option now as the season is drawing to a close. I look forward to your input and realize that thus is akin to trying to give someone a haircut over the phone. Any ideas would be appreciated. --- end message -- allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:09:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: bee stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In fact I have been trying to figure out, excepting for perhaps ankles and wrists, where an artery lies under thin enough skin to get an intra-artery dose of bee venom. Wrist & arm were the spots talked about by Dr. Carlston MD.. Some people have also got veracose veins. I (like you Keith) give animals shots as I live on a farm and raise livestock. A shot of ivomec or Cd& T (I have been told) can cause anaphylaxis in animals if a blood vein is hit. I believe you told me you were a vet Keith? Bob . -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:58:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: bee stings MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Harrison > Wrist & arm were the spots talked about by Dr. Carlston MD.. Some > peoplehave also got veracose veins. Hi Bob, I can see the wrist - sort of, but you are still talking several mm to an artery, as far as other parts of the arm - I can't see it. Veins maybe, arteries, nah. Veins are much more likely to be close to the surface, which makes sense. I don't ahve mnost of my bee books where I am at the moment - how long is a bees stinger? > I (like you Keith) give animals shots as I live on a farm and raise > livestock. > A shot of ivomec or Cd& T (I have been told) can cause anaphylaxis in > animals if a blood vein is hit. Absolutely - many things that are innocuous given IM or SC can be devastating if given IV or in an artery. The vast majortiy of the time such a mishap occurs, the material will be deposited in a vein. This is important as materials deposited in an artery must go to a capillary bed before being diluted in the general circulation, and this can have serious implications. There are a number of medications that are given IV, that should never be given in an artery. The tissue damage downstream from the ijection can be tremendous. > I believe you told me you were a vet Keith? Yes sir. What livestock other than bees to you maintain? Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:29:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A Question: Why Dud Queen Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen asks: Maybe someone has some ideas? I have said on lists I offer a consultation service for commercial beekeepers for a fee. This post is a example of the information you might get. The beekeepers problems are very minor compared to the problems I normally deal with. > lost over 500 colonies to what was attributed to Apistan resistance You knew resistance was coming but you still lost two thirds of your hives! has happened to us all. I know EXACTLY what its like to deal with a thousand PMS deadouts. Keep your watch up as some beekeepers have lost 70-90)% of their hives several times! >queen rearing from the surviving stock. I would suggest if you have not introduced outside survivor stock now is the time as several choices are available at reasonable prices from Glenn Apiaires, Charlie Harper or Purvis Brothers Apiairies. >Prior to this loss, I requeened faithfully with commercial queens and quite frankly was not entirely satisfied with the product I could suggest some queen producer stock that are top honey producers but their traits end there. In my opinion it will take a few years of selection among varroa tolerant bees before their honey production rises to the level of the current lines of high honey producing lines of non varroa tolerant bees. >I used coumophos for one season You have got without a doubt some wax contamination issues.(Apistan & Coumaphos) I would start a serious removal of brood nest comb (maybe two to four frames a year new). I mark new frames or frames with new foundation with current year. I rotate old comb to outside of the nest. > and have relied on formic acid since then with a late fall clean up using oxalic (evaporator) with good results. Many northern beekeepers are doing as you are. An alternate treatment might be ApiLife Var and then OA. >Winter losses have been in the 4% and 8% range for the 2003 and 2004 winters. Excellent! >I getting a higher than normal percentage of dud cells this year. Sometime happens but think about if things are different than has been in past years. > I find up to 20% are not viable. You are saying 80% are viable? Not as high as possible but not low enough for a large amount of concern. Use two jenter systems if you need more cells . Cull the small cells and use only the best is what we do. >open them up to find an off white larvae turning to brown. Send a few to Beltsville if concerned. Slow return time but would provide answers (hopefully). > If I miss one, I find it in the nuc when checking mating and It has not been torn down Duds happen but I also believe your bees are not very hygienic. I would test your breeder queen for hygienic behavior. I have a picture of the method I use in the January 2005 article of mine in Bee Culture on the Russian bees. Very easy to do and you can find out how hygienic your breeder survivor queen is. If her bees are not very hygienic I would consider dumping her. In my opinion hygienic behavior and varroa tolerance go together. Hygienic bees should tear down most dud queen cells but not all. Yours do not sound like they are tearing any duds down. The bees know when the queen is dead in the cell. >Colonies used as breeders and as starter/finishers have no visible signs of sacbrood or any other brood diseases and mite loads are low to non-existent. Then quit worrying and simply raise more cells than you need! >I look forward to your input and realize that thus is akin to trying to give someone a haircut over the phone. Any ideas would be appreciated. An experienced beekeeper like yourself that can fully explain the problem can get very accurate advice. I believe you provided enough information for the correct response. Good luck! I did not even have to put my thinking cap on for your problems! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. Also I might add that the worlds commercial beekeepers are on the endangered species list. If you have got a problem ask another beekeeper. Unlike when I started years ago most beekeepers will help other beekeepers today! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:46:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong Hi Dick, Sorry to hear about your top bar and small cell hive experiment. It sounds like it would be a great time to treat them with some oxalic. Get them through the winter and see what they do next season. I've found that it takes about a full season for bees to get into 'equilibrium' with the mites when on natural or small cell sized comb. Others have noted this also and have attributed it to a 'hive knowledge' or learning. It's a curious phenomenia which often requires hives to be treated the first year when on small cell. I think mite immigration is a big factor in the process. Bees on small cell comb behave very much like those on large cell throughout most of the summer. Mite populations can increase when a new small cell hive is started after most of the early spring broodnest cleansing is over with. When the bees have a chance to clean brood in the fall and continue to reduce the mite load over the winter, a different situation will exist the following spring. The hives will have an extremely low mite level which they can maintain inspite of mite immigration. I think that's how they 'learn' to control the mites. Regarding natural comb in a tbh. I've think that cavity shape has a profound influence on the amount of natural small cell comb drawout by the bees. A cavity that is too short will result in comb that is truncated before much small cell comb is drawn out. And typical top bar hive management often interfers with broodnest construction, resulting in lots of drone and storage inside the core area. I had problems with mites in top bar hives that I've managed in a traditional way. Treat them and let everyone know what happens next season. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---