From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:36:12 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5FE4824C for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEVNik013404 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0509" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 837379 Lines: 19099 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:13:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Frame of pollen in autumn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bob, >>Save the frames of pollen for spring splits. What's the best way to save frames of pollen? In a freezer? Thanks, Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:23:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Re: Just Wondering MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Brenchley" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:36 AM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Just Wondering > In a message dated 31/08/05 09:14:23 GMT Daylight Time, B_Line@MSN.COM > writes: > > > > Not only that, but drone larvae are very useful fishing bait. There could > even be a potential market if a regular supply could be maintained. > > Regards, > > Robert Brenchley > Robert, Thanks for the reply. Perhaps there is, a two queen colony with intermingling, one queen fertile and the other not. I suspect the comb drawn in the infertile section would be mostly worker size, don't really know. Of course one could install drone foundation but without wire if for human consumption. Even that could be acceptable depending how the brood is prepared. If my market demands, I may have to try this but, for the time being the 200 colonies are supplying the current demand. I almost enjoy mite control. Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH 03051 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:41:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: earl markworth Subject: pollen in frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whenever I found full frames of pollen I usally found it to be queenless = or a failing queen p.s. I did not use any quotes -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:37:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: drones at looser ends In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I too have drones still, and it's a good thing.. I'm hoping to get a couple of virgin queens mated this coming week. I have however heard reports from several other beekeepers in my area (central Maine) that their hives have kicked out the drones. George- At 11:22 AM 8/31/05 -0400, you wrote: >Greetings! >Maybee your hives:but not mine. Got plenty of drones. > > On 8/24/05, Bill Truesdell wrote: >> >> Add Maine to the list. >> >> Bill Truesdell >> Bath, Maine --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:54:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Re: A Question: Why Dud Queen Cells MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I would ask a couple off questions and give it some more thought. 1. was there a surplus of royal jelly in the failed cells? 2. What did the brood paterns look like from the queen that was used to generte the cells? I might suspect bee parlasys. I have seen such with worker larve that hve been under nourishrd. Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH 03051 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:09:39 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Cloudy Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I extracted a batch of deep supers for another beekeeper at the end of July. He hadn't been able to extract in a couple of years, and some of the honey had apparently crystallized in the frames. I could also see while I was uncapping that some of the frames had been used for brood rearing and that in some cases there was quite a bit of capped pollen, sealed, around what had been a brood area but was now full of capped honey. I also didn't extract from frames that had uncapped honey; they were just returned to his hives. At any rate, I ended up with three buckets of this honey. I only use a standard double metal mesh screen between the extractor and the buckets (which had to be cleaned a couple of times due to crystallized honey clogging it and slowing the flow). I wasn't surprised when I started to bottle the honey and saw that it looked a little cloudy. Warmed it up and thought that would take care of dissolving the remaining crystals, but the honey still looks slightly cloudy. Anybody have any other ideas why this would be? Have never seen this with my own honey, or with another batch of honey I extracted last year that had crystallization problems.that batch was crystal clear after it was warmed up. Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:10:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Re: bee stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe there are some critical nerves around nose, mouth, eyes, that are very vulnerable to insect stings I think you can add inside the ear also. Worst reaction I've ever had was a direct hit in/near the ear canal that nearly knocked me down...dive bombed 15-20 feet from nearest hive ...no buzzing around face as often the case and had not been working any of them. Had immediate tingling near the mouth, numbness, some feeling of swelling in the throat. Lasted about 30 minutes...but I took a benadryl right after sting and laid down in a cool place. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:11:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike & Janet Brisson Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry Aaron about the excessive quotes. I hope this is ok. Janaet I did not get when you apply the powder sugar. One limitation or possible > misinterpretation stems from the fact that most mites will be [capped?] in > brood cells during the brood-rearing season. As I understand it, sugar > dislodges only mites on the adult bees on the frames which is still > beneficial. > > Waldemar Absolutely. Each time we do a treatment, we apply the powdered sugar 3 times, 7 to 10 days apart, like Sucrocide. That's the timing to capture mites as cap brood hatches. I've done it so far when there were no honey supers. We just did our 2nd out of 3 treatments and we have one more to go. I've done two other series, one in April and one in mid-July after we pulled our berry honey. On the two more infested (out of 8) hives, we did a 4th treatment, 7 days after the 3rd both times. Dr. Eric Mussen, our California State Apiarist says the powdered sugar does not actually kill the mites, although it seems to me they are suffocated. It just dislodges them. The sugar does harden after 24 hours and I've seen mites walk across the top. I encourage removing the sugar right away, in case there are living mites and you are having a dearth where the bees would be attracted back to the sugar, allowing the mites to hitch a ride. The other thing Eric said, mites can live a week without a host. Scary. We have pictures and more detailed instructions posted on the Instruction page of www.countryrubes.com Thanks, Janet -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 07:40:26 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: A Question: Why Dud Queen Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I find up to 20% are not viable. > These cells are capped over and have a brownish tip but otherwise look > normal. I hold them up to the sunlight and if I cannot see a pupae I cull > them and open them up to find an off white larvae turning to brown. Send samples to an appropriate diagnostic lab and ask to have them checked for black queen cell virus. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 07:43:17 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Powdered Sugar....I'm not a scientist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Through posting on other bee forums, there were questions about the > cornstarch (non-caking agaent) in powdered sugar being bad for the bees. I assume you would be using "pure" sugar. Here in Australia we have pure icing sugar and icing mixture. Icing mixture is the one that has the starch. We use pure icing sugar for queen candy but would never use icing mixture. It would be the same for your sugar "treatment". Only use pure sugar. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:02:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong In-Reply-To: <000e01c5ae35$5c2119a0$2cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: > Small cell *regression* has been a nightmare for > many to gain what? I gained freedom from treatments, I gained the ability to harvest from the supers and broodnest without fear of harming my family and friends with contaminates, I gained freedom from buying fancy queens when my first hygienic test of 10 small cell feral colonies revealed 6 out of 10 were hygienic, I gained a 90% winter survival success, and the part I love most is I gained the ability to look my customer in the eye and say with honesty that my product is safe. > Stories abound all over the bee lists of small cell > failures! How do you know that these weren't' beekeeper failures? ;>) More research needs to be done in this area! I have learned that beekeepers will blame the queens, bees, methodry, environment, winter condensation, everything but themselves. Dick Allen & I > have stepped forward to say our research was a > failure and waste of time! I'm not sure that Allen had a chance to research small cell, he was still regressing and stabilizing. > How about a few others giving their findings? I'm finding success! Anyone in PA, come out and visit! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:04:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kirsten Traynor Subject: Re: Just Wondering - Drone Brood Removal In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20050831054721.00aa88f0@pop.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At EAS 2005 there was a presentation on doing drone removal for varroa control. They used two drone brood frames in each hive. These were removed on a 30 day cycle and replaced with a second set of two drone frames. For the next 30 days the first two frames sat in a freezer. They were brought back to room temperature and given back to the bees on the 30th day, when the second set of 2 drone frames was pulled. The bees would then clean out the thawed drone brood frames and use the drone larvae as protein to feed developing brood. By having four frames of drone and cycling two frames in and out every thirty days, the researcher was able to reduce the varroa by approximately 70%. Yes, he warned, it is labor intensive. But for 70% varroa control, it would be worth it for a hobbyist and even some sideliners. I think he calculated that you could store 300 drawn drone frames in a regular size freezer chest. He did warn that if you were planning on doing this, you might want that extra freezer chest, so that you didn't suffer a divorce. Frozen drone brood I guess doesn't sit well next to frozen burgers. Note: The presenter also mentioned that in feral hives, drone brood is placed on the edges of the comb to act as an insulating buffer. If the temperatures drop, the drone brood becomes chilled. The bees will naturally remove this and cannibalize it for protein to raise young. I hope I am recalling all of this information and the numbers correctly, but that is how I remember the presentation. Kirsten Traynor www.mdbee.com >I had planned on trying drone-comb removal as a varroa control measure this year, but didn't >get around to it- perhaps next year. I did ponder whether there was a >market for the larvae rather than giving them back to the bees (do the bees >eat or discard the brood?) but I filed that rumination for further chewing >on some cold winter day. > > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:32:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: A Question: Why Dud Queen Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the response, Bob. Actually, he is not in the USA, though, and as you observed -- "The beekeepers problems are very minor compared to the problems I normally deal with". -- he is doing quite fine these days, except he is having queen cell problems he didn't have before and is wondering why. The rest was just background, explaining how he had suffered big losses a while back and recovered, plus learned from his experience. I cut out the part about his location and the circumstances since it was a private message that I thought worth sharing. I'll pass on all the various suggestions as they come in, and who knows, maybe he reads BEE-L, or will sign on. Thanks also to Trevor, and I hope to hear some more ideas -- and maybe some fixes, too. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 00:57:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Kraus Subject: Re: bee stings > In fact I have been trying to figure out, excepting for perhaps ankles and wrists, where an artery lies under thin enough skin to get an intra- artery dose of bee venom. Wrist & arm were the spots talked about by Dr. Carlston MD.. < Just over a year ago, after a summer of getting stung without anything but minor local reactions, I got stung on the inside of my elbow, right where the Red Cross sticks me for a donation. It was my only sting that day, so I left the stinger alone to get a "full" dose. Within seconds, I was struggling not to throw up inside my veil. I also broke out in hives, and my eyes and lips felt like they were swelling. For what it's worth, David Kraus -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:23:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ross Langlands Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 30 Aug 2005 to 31 Aug 2005 (#2005-230) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith's absolutely right. Not only are arteries except at the wrist and ankle too deep for stings, but the artery wall is sufficiently thick and muscular to prevent penetration. It is conceivable that venom around the arterial wall could result in (temporary) spasm of the artery, but since most tissues are supplied by more than one artery this wouldn't be a problem. Stings into veins are neither more nor less likely to result in an allergic reaction. The local reaction can result in a superficial thrombophlebitis with inflammation thickening and pain in the vein wall lasting for two to three weeks. Look at http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/zoo00/zoo00014.htm Ross ********************************************************************** The information contained in this message may be confidential or legally privileged and is intended for the addressee only, If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. ********************************************************************** -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 11:19:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: A Question: Why Dud Queen Cells In-Reply-To: <01f001c5ae45$f898ff40$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen, his correspondent, and all > I find up to 20% are > not viable. There are failures at every part of the queen raising process, I reckon between 50% and 55% of cells grafted, actually end up as mated queens leading a colony. There are variances in different seasons, but any sharp change should be looked at in detail. I have experience of Jenter box methods, but find that the fault is that you are always unsure of the age of the egg, unless you inspect every hour. Because of this, I (and several others that I know) now use grafting only, but use the Jenter and Cupularve cell cups to graft into. > thus is akin to trying to give > someone a haircut over the phone. Agreed here, but for a start I would look at pollen provision, not forgetting that stored pollen will not be used if it is more that 80 mm from where it is actually required (before you ask... No, I don't know why). Another thing that I would look for would be residues in wax, because a queen cell is constructed of a mixture of new wax and wax fragments from all over the nest. But in any case ALWAYS aim to produce more queens than you need, because there will be some that are below par that should be replaced. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 6.02 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 12:34:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Goldenrod and drones. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I inspected two hives yesterday that were moved to golden rod 2 weeks ago. I inserted queen excluders since the queens had just moved up into the supers to lay. The nest and super frames are filling up with honey nicely. Lots of brood in tight patterns including drone brood in some areas. No drone larvae. Numerous drones on the frames. The queens are big, fat and laying nice patterns. Bees look very good and only rally against an occasional yellow jacket or bumble bee. Roughly half of the golden rod has started to bloom. The flow should continue through September. Looking forward to a nice golden rod honey harvest. :) Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:06:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Api Life VAR in Three Deep Hive >I am applying ApiLife Var to a hive that consists of three medium hive >bodies. The brood nest is approximately 7 frames wide in the bottom hive >body and 4 frames wide in the middle hive body. The top hive body is all >honey. Should I apply the treatment on top of the middle hive body or on >top of the bottom hive body. Thanks, Bob, for the prompt. I'm not going to be able to give as definitive an answer as I'd like. As long as Apilife has been used in Europe, I would think these sorts of things would have been studied, at least informally, but I don't personally have the contacts. At Brushy Mountain, where I work, we use three chambers for most of the bees here, although they're 3/4-depth chambers. The way Steve, the owner, has us apply the Apilife is to place it above the highest chamber with brood in it, which means we put it underneath any chambers with nothing but honey. I should explain, though, that our hives are mostly just for experimentation and that labor efficiency is mostly a non-issue for us. That said, my guess is that what we're doing is most optimal but that placing it on the top of the whole stack would make a nearly insignificant difference. It might be worth noting that the Stanghellini study in New Jersey in October-November (which is not a time period I would recommend for treating with Apilife in that temperature zone) found very marginal effectiveness (I think sixty-some percent) in double deep hives and pretty good effectiveness (I think low ninety-something) in single deep hives. Nonetheless I'm not inclined to attribute that difference to placement of the Apilife. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:19:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: A Question: Why Dud Queen Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a recap of this most interesting problem submitted by a BEE-L lurker... > I have been using the Jenter kit to obtain larvae of the correct age and > then use a modified swarm box as a starter for 24 hours after which the > cells are transferred to the second hive body above an excluder for > finishing. I've been getting excellent queens that are well adapted to my > area's harsh conditions and my question is why am I getting a higher than > normal percentage of dud cells this year. The cells look good when > transferring them to the finisher and also when counting them on the 4th > day > after transfer but when they are harvested, I find up to 20% are not > viable. > These cells are capped over and have a brownish tip but otherwise look > normal. I hold them up to the sunlight and if I cannot see a pupae I cull > them and open them up to find an off white larvae turning to brown. The > mess > does not string out and if left long enough it turns rubbery. If I miss > one, > I find it in the nuc when checking mating and It has not been torn down At the same time I wrote to BEE-L recently, I wrote to Medhat. Here's his reply: --- Medhat's reply --- Regarding your queen cells loss. There is one or two situations: 1. queen cells on the edges of the bars in the queen cell finisher could be chilled at night when the temperature gets cold and the bee cluster shrinks. In this case the brown dried larvae/ pupae could be formed. To cure this case, you need to strengthen your cell builders and keep the cells away from the edge of the bars. May be start cells about 1.5"-2.0" from the edge. 2. In case of using Jenter kit, sometimes black queen cell virus will infect the cells. This virus has tendency to show up when you keep repeating using the same kit and sanitation conditions are not good. Once the virus infects the queen cells, the queen larvae/pupae will die out and turn to charcoal like colour. I would suggest clean up the Jenter kit and you might need to use Clorox 1% to wash the kit. Make sure that you rinse the kit well with water. Then, place the kit in the cell builder for the bees to clean it up again. We found feeding the cell builders with Fumagillin would also help to suppress the queen cell virus. Medhat P.S. Al, you can put this response on Bee-L if you wish Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:53:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: how long before a varroa mite reinfests a cell? I have what seems like a really big question, related to my post about the timing of multi-part treatments. How long does a varroa mite spend in exposed territory (i.e. not in a capped cell) before entering the next cell to reproduce again? Obviously the answer to this question will vary from mite to mite, seasonally, etc. If the answer under the circumstances at treatment is 24- 36 hours, for instance, then 7-10 days later 85% of the mites that hatched out would be protected once again in a cell. Any treatment (like sucrocide, oxalic, FGMO, powdered sugar, etc.) that only kills the mites that are there at the time of application would only be very minimally effective, if that were the case. The testing I did with sucrocide last year is what got me wondering. I went through the very labor-intensive process of treating two of my hives with the highest mite drop counts in August when there were still near-peak brood levels. Testing again after a complete 3-part sucrocide treatment I found higher mite levels than when I started. I treated other hives in Sep- Oct after brood levels had dropped, and those treatments appeared from mite drop tests to have been quite effective (roughly in line with the official studies I've seen.) My best guess as to why the sucrocide apparently wasn't effective for me in August is that mites were reentering the protection of capped brood cells too quickly. Do you all think the same? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:58:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Honey labelling In-Reply-To: <001101c5ae6c$601b4cb0$4524020a@Markworth> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, BEE-L subscribers, Someone gave me a half-used bottle of Trader Joe's "Orange Blossom Honey." The fine print said, "Product of Denmark." I have been to Denmark a couple of times but never noticed any orange groves! Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:07:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: timing for multi-part treatments In the post about using powdered sugar Janet mentioned using 7-10 days treatment intervals just as with sucrocide. I was just on the phone yesterday with a beekeeper in Florida who mentioned using oxalic at similar intervals. I wanted to question the timing. 7-10 days would obviously span a full brood cycle, but isn't the whole uncapped phase of the cycle unimportant. My understanding is that varroa mites infest a cell just shortly before it's capped. If the capped phase is what's significant wouldn't three treatments be more effective at 5 day intervals (to span the longest capped phase cycle of the drones)? Of course, what I'm saying would only apply to treatments without continuing kill effects (like sucrocide, oxalic, powdered sugar, fogging, etc.) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:43:42 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: how long before a varroa mite reinfests a cell? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>...highest mite drop counts in August when there were still near-peak brood levels. ...after a complete 3-part sucrocide treatment I found higher mite levels than when I started. My observations concur with yours, Eric. Last August, I treated my heavily-infested hives with sucrocide per the instructions. I made sure that practically every bee was soaked with the solution. In fact, the solution got into the cells and killed some of the young larvae (no larvae seen in some of the same areas during the next treatment). I continued to see mites and DWS bees into November. I think I got the mites that were exposed to the sucrocide solution. I assumed that, following each treatment, the mites from emerging cells without a delay re-entered cells being capped avoiding exposure during the next treatment. Since bees cap cells every day, it's not practical to treat everyday. I've come to the conclusion that sucrocide is probably quite effective on broodless bees or swarms. The only problem is that no one has broodless bees from spring to fall. At least in my area. I followed the instructions to the letter. But perhaps I missed something? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 11:16:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: Honey labelling In-Reply-To: <153f883df5ce6c892512c056f96c3f69@lifesci.ucsb.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I think you are right, Adrian. They make orange schnapps, but the oranges come from Spain for the most part. So what do they do, bottle the honey in Denmark? Or some ex-Danish colony? Anyone's guess. Mea > Someone gave me a half-used bottle of Trader Joe's "Orange Blossom >Honey." The fine print said, "Product of Denmark." > > I have been to Denmark a couple of times but never noticed any >orange groves! > > >Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:22:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) There's something about small-cell claims that really provokes me. Even though I don't expect to see any special gains -- certainly not gains to outweigh the costs -- I've started a small-cell experiment, just because I feel like this nameless voice on the internet won't allow me any peace. My hope is that this experiment will provide a defense against the bands of small cell marauders that attack my mental tranquility. Having now revealed my bias, I hope to throw my two bits to the small cell discussion. First, small cell beekeepers are clearly well out of the mainstream (as am I), and so there are a lot of management differences that might be the cause of whatever successes small cell beekeepers have had. In fact, it seems to me that the vast majority of beekeepers who take their bees very seriously, don't blindly accept the standard practices, and are willing to do costly and labor-intensive things for their bees are quite successful beekeepers (in terms of varroa), regardless of whether they use small cell. Joe speculated that small cell failures might be beekeeper failures, but I would counter that "small cell successes" might be "beekeeper successes" having little or nothing to do with cell size. In response to Joe's claims as to what he gained by using small cell, I think those are very nice things, but the connection to cell size is speculative. And I can't remember which small cell advocate said the following, but someone said that small cell beekeepers are all going strong except for those who failed or gave up. If you add to that list folks like Allen who are presumably in the process of failing (with his small cell experiment), then we've said nothing at all, because everyone with every beekeeping method is either succeeding, threatening to fail, has failed, or has given up. My point is that the reason small cell stories are falling on deaf ears is that they're not conveying much information that's useful to the rest of us. We can congratulate you all on your successes, but what will do the rest of good in our circumstances that isn't highly speculative? And then small cell advocates say or imply that to really experience the benefits of small cell one must not feed bees anything but honey, must not so much as use powdered sugar on his bees, must manufacture his own foundation, must not use any electricity, must not wear protective clothing made of synthetic fibers, must not work his bees before a full moon...and then we too can ascend to the higher plane of small cell existence. And then they lament that the beekeeping mainstream doesn't adopt their ways. Of course, I'm exaggerating now, but this is the spirit, if not the letter, of what I hear from small cell advocates. And finally small cell advocates try to hijack the words organic and natural, as if the definition of natural were 4.9 mm, or puffing smoke in a hive were an abomination of organics. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:00:11 -0400 Reply-To: HORonT@Earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron Teitelbaum Subject: Re: bee stings In-Reply-To: <200509010457.j8143xQU004521@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My wife had a reaction similar to David's. She was stung on the head from a bee that came through the veil. She got short of breath turned bright red, like a sunburn, which slowly changed to a full body rash and the ended up with a whopper of a headache. Her breathing was ok after a rest and there was no throat restriction so we waited it out. She was fine in a day which was much better then normal stings, and local swelling was at a min (suggesting that the venom was quickly spirited off to all parts of her body). Her next sting on the hand was pretty typical (catcher's mitt sting). Ron __________________ > In fact I have been trying to figure out, excepting for perhaps ankles and wrists, where an artery lies under thin enough skin to get an intra- artery dose of bee venom. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 11:07:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Small cell regression MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joe & All, > JOSEPH R. COELHO and ORLEY R. TAYLOR, Jr. > "Size-related Mating Preferences in Honey Bee Drones." Here is the URL for all interested to read; http://balder.prohosting.com/~starrier/SizeRelatedMatingPreferences.html . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:11:06 +0200 Reply-To: jorn_johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: [BEE-L] Honey labelling In-Reply-To: <153f883df5ce6c892512c056f96c3f69@lifesci.ucsb.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hi, BEE-L subscribers, > > Someone gave me a half-used bottle of Trader Joe's "Orange Blossom > Honey." The fine print said, "Product of Denmark." There are no orange groves in the contry Denmark. Are you sure it is not Denmark in USA?? Best regards Jorn Johanesson maybe the best and Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. With integrated update facility. Version 8.0.3.0 now translated into 14 languages with more to come. hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk Bidata support forum = http://www.apimo.dk/apimo_forum/ e-mail apimo@apimo.dk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:21:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Honey labelling In-Reply-To: <153f883df5ce6c892512c056f96c3f69@lifesci.ucsb.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I am correct - Denmark has become an important honey "brokerage" centre - therefore I suggest that the original source for the honey has been somewhat washed from the label. Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 19:44:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Hyacinth Bean - a nectar source? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I am still researching vines to grow for honeybees. Kudzu, porcelain berry, silver lace vines are all said to be invasive. Does anyone have any experience with Hyacinth Bean (aka Indian Bean or Egyptian Bean)Lablab purpureus. It's quite ornamental (and edible) but is it a nectar/pollen source for honeybees? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:12:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Lowes Subject: Re: Honey labelling In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.1.20050901111226.032e0c00@pop.lmi.net> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 11:16 -0700, Mea McNeil wrote: > I think you are right, Adrian. They make orange schnapps, but the oranges > come from Spain for the most part. So what do they do, bottle the honey in > Denmark? Or some ex-Danish colony? Anyone's guess. Mea For it to be labelled "product of denmark" the honey must have been from bees in Denmark (EU labelling regs), for it to be labelled "orange blossom" it must be at least 75% sourced from orange blossom. Mark -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:52:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) In-Reply-To: <200509011822.j81I7aHQ021939@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Eric Brown wrote: ...are willing to > do costly and labor-intensive things for their bees > are quite successful > beekeepers (in terms of varroa), regardless of > whether they use small > cell. I agree the upfront regressing and costs and losses were expensive. But I am seeing savings in all these areas now. Joe speculated that small cell failures might > be beekeeper failures, > but I would counter that "small cell successes" > might be "beekeeper > successes" having little or nothing to do with cell > size. LOL, you are right! BUT, before regressing, no mater what I did, I was experiencing 50% losses on average, and some years much higher than that. This past record would indicate that I am a piss poor beekeeper. I don't see that I am doing any thing different than I have back then, I am still a piss poor beekeeper, just having a little more success. ;>) > > In response to Joe's claims as to what he gained by > using small cell, I > think those are very nice things, but the connection > to cell size is > speculative. Speculation is good! Many things in beekeeping are speculative. You can't make a decision in beekeeping without speculating what the outcome might be. I've decided to go with what is working for me. And you can't go with what is working unless you can speculate that there will be a positive outcome, or that it was due to something you are doing. Yes, I am speculating that small cell and collecting ferals is the reason for this success, therefore I must continue. I have not the time for scientific proof, so for now, I am succeeding on speculation. ;>) ...My point is that the reason small > cell stories are falling > on deaf ears is that they're not conveying much > information that's useful > to the rest of us. You're right! I used to do a ton of posting helping others regress. But, I have found that it is difficult to do successfully without being there to see what's going on inside the hives. I do admit to keeping quiet now and then because I fear that the information I give will be implemented differently than I intended, therefore I may do more harm than good. We have allot of stuff compiled in Organicbeekeepers but I can see that it can be easy to get overload with all the information. You really need to have a mentor that is in small cell that can assist on site because IMO it does require a certain amount of experience and attention to complete successfully. We can congratulate you all on > your successes, but what > will do the rest of good in our circumstances that > isn't highly speculative? I don;t read that right,,, but Sometimes I don;t understand beeks at the drop of a hat will try grease, oils, acids based on speculation. But then small cell they want proof. You need to have a certain amount of faith in your fellow beekeepers. > > And then small cell advocates say or imply that to > really experience the > benefits of small cell one must not feed bees > anything but honey, Well, if you are feeding sugar or honey as a crutch, you are in fact propping up bad genetics. I see nothing wrong with feeding sugar or honey in an emergency,,, just not as a dependency. must not > so much as use powdered sugar on his bees, The bees treat that as a contaminate, and are forced to clean up the mess. must > manufacture his own > foundation, This is due to the contamination from pesticides foudn in foundation today. But I have no choice,,, I by from dadant. > > And finally small cell advocates try to hijack the > words organic and > natural, as if the definition of natural were 4.9 > mm, or puffing smoke in a > hive were an abomination of organics. What does it matter, how does this affect your bees? I have found that the big egos generally fail in small cell because they are too worried about stuff like this, instead of their bees. ;>) Best Wishes, JOe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 20:17:28 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Claude Hachey Subject: Dud queen cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My thanks to all who responded to Allen's submission of my dud queen cell question. Time for me to quit watching from the shadows of cyberspace and clarify some questions that have come up. First off Bob, I consider my bees to now be survivor stock resulting from (a painful process) natural selection but also realize that genetic input would be beneficial and necessary for the long haul. I tried to get some Purvis queens but you would not believe the red tape involved in the Canadian border opening to U- S queen imports. All U-S breeders that were contacted were not willing to get DNA (AHB) testing along with all the other inspection requirements...perhaps a story for some future post. Frames are rotated on a regular basis and an awful pile of them were junked after my huge losses. One of the silver linings in the black cloud of losses I guess. I should clarify that of the 20% that are not viable, some (most) have been cleaned out but some remain capped over but with brown tips. You do have a point though that when finding them in a 6 frame mating nuc, it would be a sign of non hygienic behaviour. However, these nucs are made up from colonies that are completely dismantled(four or five nucs per colony) because of undesirable traits with the prospect of future colonies headed by a better queens. In addition, the colonies used as starters and finishers are not the same stock as my breeder - perhaps this is a mistake on my part. My stock consists of Italians and Carniolans originating from Australia, New Zealand and Hawaii with some from a breeder in Quebec who selects for, among other things, hygienic behaviour. It has been a few years since I have purchased queens and am having better results(luck?) with my own. I look forward to trying your test. In regards to your questions Alden, there was a surplus of royal jelly in the cell but it was not of the same consistency as fresh - more like cream cheese than plain yogurt. Probably as a result of not being consumed. The brood pattern of the breeder queen is solid with very few misses. When confined to the Jenter cage, she would lay in 102 to 106 plugs of the 112 when placed there at 5 pm and released at 1 pm the following day. The dummy plugs were also filled up. Good advice Dave in suggesting to produce more cells than needed - one beekeeper friend of mine suggested putting two cells per nuc to increase the odds of success. Seems wasteful to me but probably a good? idea. I'm not sure why you find fault with the Jenter system re the age of the egg. I aim for larvae that are less than 24 hours old ie 90 hours afer confining the queen. Am I off the mark here? In regards to pollen, a frame of fresh pollen was placed on one side of the cells in the starter(modified swarm box) along with a frame of honey on the other side. Would this 80mm rule also apply when moving cells to the finisher? In regards to your response Medhat, it has been so hot here this summer that I think that this could be a problem of overheating rather than chilling. Starters and finishers are boiling over with bees and dud cells are not confined to the edges of the cell bar. Each starter/finisher gets 30 cells to look after. As far as the jenter kit goes, I use new plugs and cups for every batch. Both you and Trevor bring up black queen cell virus. This is a new one for me. Any suggestions where I can get more info? Diagnostic labs are few and far between in my neck of the woods. I will try some fumagillin next year if the problem resurfaces. No longer lurking, Claude -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:53:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Honey labelling In-Reply-To: <153f883df5ce6c892512c056f96c3f69@lifesci.ucsb.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oranges in Denmark? This reminds me of my undergraduate days and one of the buildings at Iowa State Univeristy in Ames, Iowa. It had a roof-top greenhouse that claimed to produce 90% of all the bananas grown in Iowa. There was no explanation where the other 10% came from, however. Oranges in Denmark? Sure. Also, back in the days when "Made in Japan" was a sign of cheap quality, Japan created an area designated as "USA" so they could legally stamp their products, "Made in USA." Oranges in Denmark? It boggles my mind how the honey can be profitably shipped from who knows where, bottled and sold. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:52:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Malone wrote: > > There were none smaller than 4.9mm, say 4.8mm down > to 4.6mm maybe? > I regret that I did not take more measurements of this colony: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/naturebee/detail?.dir=d450&.dnm=851f.jpg&.src=ph But the center of the broodnest where I measured was the smallest at 4.9 i have not noticed any cells in my area smaller than 4.9 Other nests from casual observation look to be no smaller than 4.9 or so. > > So your not a novice feral colony collector? Your > casual observations of > feral bees are probably very valuable to many > beekeepers. I originally thought I would find most ferals in prime habitat farmland. I have found some there. But this year I started trapping in the woodlands and for some reason I am having good success with this strategy. Perhaps it's because the ridge lands here have been logged and not much old growth, prime voids might be in short supply here. > Can I ask if you monitor mites and by what method? I don't monitor my mites. Only method I use is the LOD method or 'live or die'. Colonies with high mite loads die, and low mite loads live. ;>) > Do these characteristics > maintain themselves after transference to your > equipment? This year I have started keeping records of where each colony I caught was located and I am seeing that to the most part, bees caught in isolated areas where I suspect a high degree of feral blood,,,, The colony will start brooding up fairly rapid on small cell. Other colonies seem like the small cells are stressful on them, supercedure and bad brood patterns and sometimes queen failure are common. I usually have these colonies weeded out by July, it's easy, the difference is striking. Woodland ferals > meaning?, middle of the woods, and high ridge land. Traps placed along open areas. some distance from domestic/managed > colonies, and if so how far > away? 2 miles or so. I'm sure there is some domestic influence on the bees, but the further away I catch them, the better bees I get. I see propolis as being highly beneficiary > along with the broodnest > priming. How is the honey production compared to > non-feral or other races by > percentage.? Last year I finally recovered enough numbers to get some hives down in some prime farmland. A swarm from one of my ferals grew to two deeps and filled 3 mediums by fall. Haven't had these ferals in the farmland long enough to make any accurate production claims just yet, but I thought this swarm did very well. > > So you have not yet reached the five year threshold > for surviving varroa > that many believe is needed to claim complete > survival success? I haven't reached the 5 year claim yet, but I recall the number at 3 years which I believe is what Penn State says colonies must survive to be considered as potential survivors. me thinks,, It does > sound like you are doing very great and success is > just around the corner. > Your success is something for to keep an eye open > for. It's good to know all > your bees did not die and you are not no longer a > beekeeper. I agree with you that 5 years is the better assessment period. I have started testing a yard of 10 small cell colonies for hygienic traits using the pin prick method. 6 out of 10 tested hygienic. 5 of these colonies removed 100% of the dead larvae. They say that without selecting, only 10% should be hygienic, but these tested higher than the average. Sure will make selection for breeding allot easier for me. How are your bees doing Keith? > > Do you keep these in separate yards from your > survivors? Some of the ferals I keep are in this yard, but most are swarms I am assessing and cutouts. You do know already that I assess my bees in the ridge where conditions are not so good for bees after the tree bloom ends. This makes it very easy for me to select the best. The thrivers really stand out from the dud swarms. Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 11:03:49 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Dud queen cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Both you and Trevor bring up black queen cell virus. This is a new one for > me. Any suggestions where I can get more info? Diagnostic labs are few and > far between in my neck of the woods. I will try some fumagillin next year > if > the problem resurfaces. Dr. Cynthia Scott-Dupree has done a lot of work on viruses. I think she is still at Guelph. Forgot to ask her when I met up with her at Apimondia in Ireland. For more information type "black queen cell virus" into Google and you will get a lot of hits. Some will most likely be of no use but others will. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:34:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Grant F.C. Gillard" Subject: Comb Orientation in feral hives I got a call to extricate a hive of bees taking up residence in the wall a garden shed. The walls were 1x12 boards, nailed vertically with 1x2 battons, on 2x4 studs with braces between studs on this ten by ten shed. The siding looked to be cedar, and the bees were coming/going through knot holes. Upon my arrival, I found they had two hives, one on the East side and another on the South side. So I went to work taking the boards off, hoping to cut the combs and insert the comb in frames, etc. On the East side, the combs were constructed and oriented North - South, parallel to the siding I removed. However, on the South side, the frames were perpendicular to the siding, but still oriented North - South. In all my years of catching and retreiving swarms of feral colonies, it was the first time I took notice that both of these feral colonies oriented their combs in a North - South pattern, despite differences in the spaces they took up residence. Coincidence? This shed was in deep shade so sunshine was not an obvious factor to my observation. Anyone with any ideas? Grant Jackson, MO -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:15:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Post Hurricane Inquiry To the List, I just wanted to ask how are things with the the USDA-ARS Baton Rouge site, the Russian project, and Mr. Charlie Harper. My thoughts and prayers are with all. Sincerely, Chuck Norton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 20:58:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Black queen cell virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > For more information type "black queen cell virus" into Google and > you will get a lot of hits. Make sure you have a filter on the search. I know fellow who did a search for 'black queens' and innocently wound up at a site that downloaded some junk to his machine and ultimately wrecked his computer -- and destroyed some very important business data that he had on the hard drive. That was another sort of virus. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:19:59 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: Honey labelling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of course it could be from the town Denmark in the south of Western Australia where I've lived, but even there I have not heard about any orange honey gathering.......should perhaps ask Bart Lebbing there...... Ron van Mierlo Sweden ....................... > .................... > Someone gave me a half-used bottle of Trader Joe's "Orange Blossom > Honey." The fine print said, "Product of Denmark." > > I have been to Denmark a couple of times but never noticed any > orange groves! > > Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 04:57:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Post Hurricane Inquiry In-Reply-To: <200509020215.j822FUda023891@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Everything is just fine with the bee lab and the Russian project no damages.We are having a bee lab field day on Oct 8 2005 all beekeepers invited see you there. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:44:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Dud queen cells In-Reply-To: <00a601c5af4b$52e31930$6501a8c0@homeclaude> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Claude > When confined to the Jenter cage, she would lay in 102 to 106 > plugs of the 112 when placed there at 5 pm and released at > 1 pm the following day. If it happened like this, I would have no problem, but in UK the laying can be anything from immediate to a week. We try to work to a pre-arranged schedule and so this wide variation cannot be tolerated. > one beekeeper friend of mine suggested putting two cells > per nuc to increase the odds of success. I have a page on this... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/qc2.html but in reading it, please bear in mind that supersedure is a strong trait in the bees that I breed (AMM). > Would this 80mm rule also apply > when moving cells to the finisher? As far as I know it would, It also applies to drone raising colonies. I go further by providing pollen in troughs that are built into the cell frames. and also packing trapped pollen into empty combs. Medhat mentions the end positions on cell bars, in UK I now ignore the endmost positions completely, as only small scrubby cells were ever produced in those positions. This may not be related to cluster size (although AMM clusters are smaller) but may be another manifestation of this 80 mm pollen transport effect. > As far as the jenter kit goes, I use new plugs and cups for every batch. I find greater success with old cups that have been cleaned up by the bees themselves... I used to go to great lengths to clean up the old cups, but about five years ago I was told by Albert Knight that he was getting better success with cups that had any dried residue scraped out then cleaned up by the bees. In fact any new plastic fittings are now 'dirtied' by placing a small chunk of old honey comb (30 mm dia, no cocoons) into water that is hot enough to melt it. Then the plastic parts are dipped through the resulting wax film and given to the bees to clean up. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 6.02 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 00:07:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe & All, > How are your bees doing Keith? > I saw "The" Strongest colonies I have ever had come through winter this last spring, and on the losing side I lost many colonies. The loss was from my selecting out those that did not store up enough feed for winter but the ones that did correctly in this area were very strong and healthy. I was able to make a split from my stronger ones and also take a little honey from them. My replacement colonies of Russians are doing great, made some honey and are still heavy for wintering. I was able to breed a few queens from wintered colonies and I have plans to send a few queens to my southern suppliers so next spring daughters can be taken from them to come back up in package bees so I have replacement colonies with my drones in them for breeding enhancement for my breeding for a hardy stock for Alaska. As you can imagine this will take several years if it is at all possible for anyone to succeed at such a thing as Breeding a Alaska winter hardy bee. I think I know in my mind it can be done because I have seen such strong and healthy bees make the winter up here with no hive body insulation, only having the top lightly insulated. I am finding bees to be very adaptable and hardier than thought and taught. It might not hurt to have some of that wild feral blood in my mix though. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 23:40:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Comb Orientation in feral hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Grant & All, > Anyone with any ideas? > I had a swarm take up residence under a plywood board covering a compost pile I had last season and they too oriented their combs North to South, with face of the combs facing to the East and to the West. Anecdotally I think it has something to do with magnetic or possible the direction of the prevailing wind. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:29:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Comb Orientation in feral hives In-Reply-To: <200509020134.j821Plsh021764@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Grant: This last spring I thought it would be interesting to do a top bar hive. The hive is oriented north-south with a south facing entrance. So, the top bars were then oriented east-west. I put starter strips in some of the bars at the center of the hive. A few days after hiving the bees, I checked to see how things were doing. The bees had moved to the rear of the hive, completely ignoring the starter strips and began making their comb in a north-south direction. I had to go in and cut the new comb pieces off and attach them to the east-west oriented top bars, after which the bees did do it my way. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:23:55 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Comb Orientation in feral hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>a top bar hive. The hive is oriented north-south with a south facing entrance. So, the top bars were then oriented east-west. ... The bees had moved to the rear of the hive ... and began making their comb in a north-south direction. Probably because of their preference to orient the combs perpendicular to the entrance? >>I had to go in and cut the new comb pieces off and attach them to the east-west oriented top bars, after which the bees did do it my way. They will follow the template given to them. Especially if it already contains eggs, larvae, and food. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:18:04 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Comb Orientation in feral hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>two hives, one on the East side and another on the South side. ... On the East side, the combs were ... oriented North - South, parallel to the siding I removed. ... on the South side, the frames were perpendicular to the siding, but still oriented North - South. Thinking about, I recall most - something like 70% - of the ferals I've seen had the combs oriented north-south. I wonder if this is due to the bees' preference for south-facing entrances, when available, and orienting combs perpendicular to the entrances... On the other hand, in the same feral cavities I've seen both south-north and east-west oriented comb and every other orientation in between. It seems bees prefer to orient the comb perpendicular to the entrance in the area closest to the entrance. The direction often gradually deviates further into the cavity. I've seen this often with nests in the eaves of houses where rafters often mark the change in orientation. In trees, cavities often have two or more 'chambers' and the comb orientation seems to follow the chamber orientation that favors the widest comb I think. I believe the comb orientation is 'decided' by the bees with the swarm size and needs as well. If the swarm is on the small side and needs to conserve heat - as in a cool spring - in a drafty cavity, it will orient the combs sometimes to shield against the draft. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:30:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Eric & All, > I've started a small-cell experiment, just because I > feel like this nameless voice on the internet won't allow me any peace. My > hope is that this experiment will provide a defense against the bands of > small cell marauders that attack my mental tranquility. > Having now revealed my bias, I hope to throw my two bits to the small cell discussion. > If this is the abstract to your experiment your experiment should do quit well to accomplish your bias. In my opinion it is not the small cell beekeepers who are marauding any tranquility. If you have difficulty understanding small cell or natural beekeeping it is not the fault of others who have recently been discussing on this pipeline about the subject. I have no agenda to persuade you or anyone else to use small cells or any other one method of keeping bees, I try my best to tell how & what I am doing and only give my opinion on some aspects of keeping bees. If anyone has a problem with that I am not the one with the problem. I am enjoying a better success with small cell bee keeping and certain methods that I have been taught by beekeepers who do not use added treatments to a hive. It is a long standing fact that there is a method to the madness, some beekeepers have better methods than others do. Even though there is a prescribed method to small cell beekeeping I know of nobody that follows the method to the letter but one person. Others are succeeding regardless if they follow the letter to the method. There are two things that rings true to all there methods is they are using smaller cells, not necessarily one size cell and not necessarily comb drawn from foundation, and not using any treatments. For the most successful it would appear that truly feral bee capturing is highly beneficial. These ferals are for the most part already regressed and genetically correct. If scientist want something beneficial to do they might want to collect some of these ferals themselves, let them draw their own combs, study un-bias the colony and its structure, breed, and report, regardless of peer review. In my opinion peer review can present bias and jealousy. Hope I have not offended any one or stressed anyone mentally. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 04:05:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) In-Reply-To: <20050901215226.67936.qmail@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Eric Brown wrote: >>....And finally small cell advocates try to hijack the > > words organic... Well, when you look at the definition of organic: 1. Of, relating to, or derived from living organisms: organic matter. 2. marked by, or involving the use of fertilizers or pesticides that are strictly of animal or vegetable origin: organic vegetables; an organic farm. b. Raised or conducted without the use of drugs, hormones, or synthetic chemicals: organic chicken; organic cattle farming. ,,,And "organic" beekeeping rules allow such things as formic acid and other such contaminates which are commercially synthesized to be uses on honeybees. Who's doing the hijacking here???? ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 10:00:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Julie Mayer Subject: Plastic five gallon containers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I have some five gallon square plastic containers that are about five years old. This morning we were filling them with water in anticipation of an announced cut-off of our district water supply. Two of the containers "self-destructed." Now we have not been too careful about storing them out of the sun, etc, but wondered what a reasonable dependable life should be for them? I shudder to think if these ones had been filled with honey intstead of water!! John Mayer West-Central MO -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:28:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Honey labelling In-Reply-To: <20050902005339.68066.qmail@web34303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Regarding labelling regulations: Please check the country of origin label. IN the Case of Canada. Check: http://inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/labeti/guide/ch4ae.shtml#4.19 The requirement for stating made in Canada is listed. This is where the label become sometimes deceptive to the consumers. I like Swiss Dark Chocolate with Almonds made with Swiss (?)milk!, Product of Switzerland. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 11:41:37 -0500 Reply-To: gmaguet@mts.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gilles Subject: food labelling and market access In-Reply-To: <153f883df5ce6c892512c056f96c3f69@lifesci.ucsb.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is in regards a posting about orange blossom honey. I don't believe Europe or North America grows coffee or cocoa however these product labels will say product of USA or wherever it has been processed. COOL, or Country Of Origin Labelling is a nightmare for food processors, something they are not in favor of. I can see how labelling processed meats such as hot dogs could be problematic. Primary food producers are forever at the mercy of the market forces. We have no market power. We rely on crop disasters elsewhere to realize reasonable and fair prices for what we produce. The exception to this that I'm aware of is the supply managed dairy and poultry sectors of Canada. These areas are the only stable agricultural industries not to mention they receive no government subsidies. Interestingly, they are the targets of criticism by a consortium of large lobby groups consisting of companies such as Pizza Hut and KFC ( only an example of many more) who want to get their hands on cheap bulk food to inflate their bottom lines even fatter. From what I have learned about the National Honey Board, their efforts have largely increased the use of honey in food processing NOT at the retail level. The NHB is funded by domestic beekeepers yet the honey used in food processing tends to be foreign in origin. The focus needs to be redirected to forcing domestic consumption of Canadian and American honey on the shelf with the implementation of high tarriffs on foreign honey for this market The industrial product would be exempt from large tariffs. A floor price could be established by the current marketing boards, all domesic honey would be marketed via the marketing boards, levies could then be deducted to fund honey promotion and public education about the importance of domestic apiculture. This is precisely how eggs are marketed in Canada, and these producers are all doing very well. This will ensure the continuation of domestic beekeeping and not the continued decline that has occurred and is likely to continue until we producers co-operate and take control of our collective welfare. Gilles > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:27:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping - still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/09/2005 05:05:16 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: > > Could you explain a few other benefits of the drone besides mating? > > When listening to some beekeepers explaining the role of the drone to the > general public or a new beekeeper I hear all to often that there sole > purpose is to mate with the queens. I think they have other roles in > addition. > Some weeks ago when there were still plenty of drones around I had one hive that had very many of them. When patting them aside to see what was in the comb they were sitting on I noticed that they were very much warmer to the hand than if one does a similar action with workers. Could they have some role in climate control within the hive? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:31:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: bee stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I still do not believe a stinger is long enough to reach an artery. Have you ever looked at a stinger? Nor more than 3/32 of an inch. Arteries are deeper under the skin than this. Also a bee does not bury the stinger full depth. Most stingers only penetrate about 1/32 of an inch or less. I would think the neck has the shallowest artery of all. Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:00:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Plastic five gallon containers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sun destroys plastic very quickly. Plastic buckets are no exception. Buckets stored and used indoors will last indefinitely. Those kept in the sun may only last a couple of years. Plastic bags like stores use placed in the direct sunlight will break down in about 2 months. Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 17:01:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Hijacking the word "organic" Hi everyone, I definitely disagree with the way circles of small cell advocates have "hijacked" the word organic, but that's not to say I like the new national organic standards either. A heartless, legalistic adherence -- at least when inspectors are watching -- to the least common denominator is not my idea of organic agriculture. I think it's preposterous, however, to suggest that small cell is the only method of organic mite control, or to lead new beekeepers to believe that they have to use small cell if they want to keep bees organically. Or to treat it as scientific fact that large cell is the cause of varroa problems or that small cell is the cure. This has very clearly been my impression, and I'm willing to bet others on this list will back me up on this. That's what I mean by hijacking the word organic. Whatever the claims of small cell, there are very legitimate voices (that are also organic) either denying or seriously downplaying the claims of small cell, and to pretend otherwise is dishonest and manipulative. On another note, I think it's also preposterous to say that I can't use any substance at all for mite control if I want to make organic claims. I sell other certifiably organic products (vegetables, fruits, eggs, meat, grains), and so I have a pretty decent knowledge of organic practice in those areas. In none of those areas have I ever heard the claim that to be organic a grower must use no substances whatsoever for disease/pest control. Organic growers use things like human hair for deer control, garlic for beetle control, hot pepper for controlling other small critters, as well as some potentially more objectionable things. Why should things comparable to human hair and garlic not be allowed in organic beekeeping? What's un-organic about that? If organic beekeeping is to be completely substance-free shouldn't we stop blowing smoke in our hives? It's fine if someone wants to keep bees blind- folded while bouncing on a pogo-stick, but labeling my honey as less organic because I don't pogo is effectively slander. Of course, "substance- free" sounds good, but to say or imply that "substance-free" honey is somehow more organic is to say that there's something wrong with every single substance. That's nonsense that can only be a disservice to the world of beekeeping. I'm definitely not trying to lay these accusations on Joe or Keith, in particular, but I think these things are definitely coming out of small cell circles in no minor way. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:48:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: bee stings In-Reply-To: <004201c5aff4$da50b310$69d8d618@D98T9541> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:31 PM 9/2/05 -0500, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I still do not believe a stinger is long enough to reach an artery. Have you >ever looked at a stinger? Nor more than 3/32 of >an inch. Arteries are deeper under the skin than this. Also a bee does not >bury the stinger full depth. Most stingers only Stings will work themselves deeper fairly quickly if you don't remove them- the muscles work pair of lancets in tandem in such a way as to cause them to "dig in" all the while squeezing out venom. Ingenious, really- you gotta admire the design :) Whether stingers can eventually bury themselves deep enough to hit an artery, I don't know- and whether there'd be any venon left by then, I don't know. Of course, most people remove stingers as soon as possible rather than letting them bury themselves to their full depth. Perhaps if you got stung in the right (wrong) place and left it in for a while, the stinger might reach arterial blood while still injecting venom. This might be more likely to happen to people with thin skins, but there is not a lot of evidence of any people like that on this list... George- --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:56:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong Hi Bill and Everyone, I've found that clean comb is vital to colony health. When I placed bees that had successfully survived on small cell into clean, large cell comb hives, they had all the advantages attributed to small cell bees except for mite tolerance. Clean comb is very important. A couple of studies concerning colony survival were done in the Arizona desert before the AHB and varroa arrived. Basically, few hives survived more than 3 years. My own personal experience indicates about the same, so I decided to use that as a useful lifetime for a brood comb. That's an exceedly short time for a commercial brood frame in standard. And expecially for one that is wired and embedded with wax foundation. Plastic frames could be scraped. Wood frames would have to be reworked. Yuck! It's a horrifically short time frame for a small cell beekeeper, as small comb takes much longer and a good amount of culling to get drawn out. Hey, all you small cell beekeepers, if you started small cell beekeeping before 2003, it's time to cull all that small cell comb and start again! :>))) This was one of the factors that converted me to top bar hives. Comb rotation and replacement is extremely easy in them. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:51:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Keith: Can you give figures on the number of bees you've attempted to overwinter and the numbers of those that have actually made it through? Also, how many years have you been able to keep a single hive going without having to repopulate it with new bees? I really curious. Thanks. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 22:13:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong Hi Guys, Studies were done in Canada concerning queen survival before mites. Very few queens make it much past the end of the second full season. And just a few percent survive past the third. This factor can make a 5 year test problematic. Factors beyond the mites, like queen and colony survival, can significantly interfer with the mite survival results in a time frame that long. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:41:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Hijacking the word "organic" Hi Guys, The term 'organic' has always been an arbitrary one, except when I took organic chemistry :>) It's usually defined by an 'organic' guru and promoted by his followers. It's not so much a products state as it is a way of production. Dissention is a common hallmark of organic production as one guru's methods will differ from another guru's. The most vocal guru or the one with the most adherents usually controls the direction/definition organic production goes, at least for awhile :>) Controversy is not new with organic honey. Just take a look at the past controversies in organic gardening/farming concerning the use soil additives like gypsum, etc. In the US, there are only a couple of voices actively promoting 'Organic Beekeeping'. And I definately know which one talks the loudest on the internet. :>) That person is fanatically passionate about small cell/organic beekeeping and is greatly invested in the ideas/methods/issues associated with it. Don't expect any recognition or much time from that person if you disagree with the methods. The info on the home pages, for the lists run by that person say it all, basically no nothing, no how. And the lists are not discussion lists outside the narrow realm stated on the home pages. And that's not bad. It's just the preacher preaching to the choir:>) But that's not hijacking the word organic unless one lets that happen. I know of at least 6 beekeepers who have been using some variation of small cell beekeeping in their hives for 5 years or more. And all of them have had a good measure of success with it. None of them are fully invested in all the methods purported by that small cell guru. Yet, they are indebted, as I am, to that guru for sharing the small cell concept. And they are personally responsible for sorting out the wheat from the chaff for themselves. I'm on a roll, lookout!:>))) I find it a curious matter, that the idea that cell size/broodnest structure can affect bee behavior, is met with such hostility. When beekeepers share their small cell observations, and expect others to do their own sorting, the cries of Prove! Prove! are quickly produced as though the observations/results were fabrications. I find the most responsible course is to try and see for ones self why the observations/results are possible. It may require a little work, thinking, and some measure of time. It's alot harder than sitting around crying Prove! Prove! and waiting to be told what to do, which I find to be very childish. If someone has differing observations and experience, then bring them forward. Let's discuss them and sort the matter out. But if someones's observations and experience are nitpicked without any of the above, then that behavior reveals a child with a very poor character. Regards Dennis Thinking I must be getting cranky with my gray hair, as I like the children but hate any extended baby sitting. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 03:42:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/09/05 03:32:13 GMT Daylight Time, demerl51@HOTMAIL.COM writes: <))) This was one of the factors that converted me to top bar hives. Comb rotation and replacement is extremely easy in them. Regards Dennis>> Good point, though it's not too far out of line with what some UK beekeepers do. To rotate the comb in three years I'd need to replace three or four combs per broodbox per year; it's regarded as good practice over here to rotate two, though I'm not sure how many beekeepers do so systematically. With a reasonably small number of hives, it would be quite feasible. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:14:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dennis & All, Your assuming that there have been no replacing of the queens in that five year period and I am not. Periodic queen replacement in a colony is necessary to good and regular hive management. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:21:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick & All, > Can you give figures on the number of bees you've attempted to > overwinter and the numbers of those that have actually made it through? Just plain numbers is not relevant considering the many factors involved in my program of selection and breeding. > Also, how many years have you been able to keep a single hive going > without having to repopulate it with new bees? > 4 seasons so far.. I have a plan that will take some time to complete. I can explain more by talking better than by typing. Dick, you or anyone can call me to talk of my beekeeping anytime 907-242-0588 / 907-688-0588 . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 08:46:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) In-Reply-To: <200509011822.j81I7aHQ021939@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Brown wrote: >First, small cell beekeepers are clearly well out of the mainstream (as am >I), and so there are a lot of management differences that might be the >cause of whatever successes small cell beekeepers have had. In fact, it >seems to me that the vast majority of beekeepers who take their bees very >seriously, don't blindly accept the standard practices, and are willing to >do costly and labor-intensive things for their bees are quite successful >beekeepers (in terms of varroa), regardless of whether they use small >cell. Joe speculated that small cell failures might be beekeeper failures, >but I would counter that "small cell successes" might be "beekeeper >successes" having little or nothing to do with cell size. > > I noticed in replies to your posts that a key to success was culling of the ones that did not make it. That seems to be more the bee than the cells. That is a standard technique for most of us in the North who raise their own. Second is new comb, which is always a good beekeeping practice. And there is always the "other measures", which seem to crop up in most discussions. I have asked knowledgeable beekeepers and still have not seen a scientific study on small cells that has controls and varroa pressure over time, especially in the north. I have no problem with the claims of those who have succeeded with it, but I can claim excellent overwintering with my techniques and 4.9 cell is not involved. Plus, I can use standard equipment, no contamination, and keep it simple (and illegal with OA). I did use 5.0 and it seemed to work for a while. If I was a commercial operator outside the current AHB areas (of which FL is one), I would want some good data before I ventured out into a promising but unproven management technique. Especially if some knowledgeable and exceptional commercial peers have tried it and found it wanting. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 09:23:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Hijacking the word "organic"- prove it? In-Reply-To: <200509030441.j834Pvmi012756@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D. Murrell wrote: >I find it a curious matter, that the idea that cell size/broodnest structure >can affect bee behavior, is met with such hostility. When beekeepers share >their small cell observations, and expect others to do their own sorting, >the cries of Prove! Prove! are quickly produced as though the >observations/results were fabrications. >(snip) >If someone has differing observations and experience, then bring them >forward. Let's discuss them and sort the matter out. > I think, as I pointed out in my other post, that some larger scale studies are needed. I have no idea why they have not been conducted. (If they have been, then it would be nice to know.) As fas as differing observations, both Bob and Allen posted that they did try small cell and did not have the success of others. It could be that they did it all wrong (which is another standard response). It could also be that they have strong Varroa pressure in their area and that was the cause of the failure. It could also be their bees. It could also be their location. It could also be their (fill in blank here). Reading the proponents posts (not yours) beings up some key questions for me, especially in the bee selection process. As I said, I select for bees that do well in my area. With conflicting observations, even thought there are reports of success, I would like a more dispassionate trial (which is why I value your input. They are the closest to what is needed to date). I have said many times on this list that there is something valid in small cell beekeeping, but I still am not sure what it is. I got good results for well over 5 years with 5.0, but not recently. It is interesting that when I neglected my bees, because of my health, they did poorly. Cell size seemed to have little effect. My beekeeping practices had most of the effect. There is a lot more good science out there on things like OA, with proved success (I note that you use it), so which should I rely on, especially if I had 3,000 colonies and it was my livelihood? I can try many different approaches and trials (and have done so) and have no problem betting the farm, because I do not have a farm to bet. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 06:31:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike & Janet Brisson Subject: Re: how long before a varroa mite reinfests a cell? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would be very interested in how fast a varroa mite reinfests a cell. Eric and Waldemar, you both have an excellent points here, with multi-part treatments, how many do you miss if you do the treatments 7 days apart opposed to 10 days apart or would 5 days be better. Someone once told me that all of the intense drone cell removal that I do in spring and early summer, the mites will evolve into mites that do not enter drone brood or worker brood where they would be safe. I did not take that too seriously, but here's the second time I've seen someone mention something like that, where the mites 'learned' to reenter the capped brood quickly to avoid being sprayed. Don't varroa mites have to feed on adult fluids for a while before entering the cell and birthing again? Does anyone know how many hours or days that would be? I just did a natural fall count after our 2nd sugar treatment, and I do have the same two hives that I have been having trouble with all season, show very high counts. One of these hives had a severe case of Deformed Wing Virus in early spring that has actually cleared up. I do have several variations of hygienic type queens in all of our hives, and maybe these two very infested hives have queens that I should get rid of, although one of the hives had a very heavy layer and was put on the most honey. Thank you everyone for your help and comments. I really appreciate it. Sincerely, Janet -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 07:35:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I can explain more by talking better than by typing. Dick, you or anyone > can call me to talk of my beekeeping anytime Although conversation may seem quick and much easier than writing a coherent, logical email, it is usually private and exclusive. Moreover, talk can be full of misunderstandings and generalities which would be revealed in a written dialogue, especially one read by many people. What people write here can be read by all, studied, analysed, and compared in the future to what is said later. Apparent inconsistencies or contradictions can be revealed, discussed and explained, and the messages can be studied by latecomers to get current. It is more work to put it in writing, but worth it, IMO. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 08:09:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Hijacking the word "organic" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I find it a curious matter, that the idea that cell size/broodnest > structure can affect bee behavior, is met with such hostility. I have not seen the idea itself met with *any* hostility. The idea itself has been tried by many and considered by all, I am sure. The USDA scientists I know discuss it freely and with interest, but are not sure how to design a conclusive experiment. Personally, I have both tried small cell foundation (somewhat casually), visited the Lusby operation several times, and consider Dee and Ed to be good friends. I have written favourable articles about Lusbys and their methods, however I have not adopted them. This is partially because we are in very different circumstances and fully invested in our current technology (which continues to make money for us), and partially because I do not know of *any* sizeable commercial honey producer outside "Africanized areas" who has been able to make a good living using small cell with European bees > When beekeepers share their small cell observations, and expect others to > do their own sorting, the cries of Prove! Prove! are quickly produced as > though the observations/results were fabrications. That said, however, what does seem to invariably meet with some resentment, is the messianic fervour with which some advocates try to spread the small cell "gospel", with a faith-based, anecdotal approach, and the inability or refusal to produce scientific proof. (Personally, I am not sure that scientific proof is possible, but that is what people unthinkingly expect these days). In short, many are not in a position to adopt small cell and prefer other approaches which seem to work equally well, and which have been proven to allow production of sufficient amounts of hive products to support the beekeeper. Most are open-minded, but wary. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 07:47:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong In-Reply-To: <200509030156.j831u94i005358@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- "D. Murrell" wrote: ...When I placed bees > that had successfully survived on small cell into > clean, large cell comb > hives, they had all the advantages attributed to > small cell bees except for > mite tolerance. Clean comb is very important. I don't think this can be attributed to clean comb alone. How can one be sure that the accompanying brood break does not factor in? Or the elimination of mite infested drone brood? Or reorganization of broodnest? Or weeding off of varroa and other disease by artificial swarming? Or the elimination of contaminated comb? Could also be the open broodnest effect,,, aiding the colonies ability to out brood mites and disease,,, Bro. Adam does state that "an open broodnest is essential,,," As some say that you cannot attribute success to small cell alone,,, let's be equal here now,,, you cannot attribute these results and success of some small cell beekeepers bassed on clean comb alone. Too many other factors contribute here. But I will also add that an open broodnest is instructed as an essential part of small cell beekeeping time and again by us small cell guru's. Joe Derry, Pennsylvania __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 11:22:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) Hi Erik, It sounds like you have been spending alot of time over on the organic list. :>) >And I can't remember which small cell advocate said the following, but someone said that small cell beekeepers are all going strong except for those who failed or gave up. Several small cell beekeeping polls were conducted over on beesource. Only about 10% of the respondents who tried small cell had given it up. >My point is that the reason small cell stories are falling on deaf ears is that they're not conveying much information that's useful to the rest of us. We can congratulate you all on your successes, but what will do the rest of good in our circumstances that isn't highly speculative? I say let the stories(observations/experience) fall where they will. How much can the deaf hear anyway? If there's not anything useful in those stories don't let them bother you. Concerning speculation, the very act of keeping bees is extremely speculative. It's not for the risk adverse, especially if you are a commercial beekeeper. Almost every aspect of modern beekeepings equipment and management is based upon trial and error by some beekeeper. And it didn't originate in the lab. >And then small cell advocates say or imply that to really experience the benefits of small cell one must not feed bees anything but honey,... must not so much as use powdered sugar on his bees, must manufacture his own foundation, must not use any electricity, must not wear protective clothing made of synthetic fibers, must not work his bees before a full moon...and then we too can ascend to the higher plane of small cell existence. I think a few new items will soon be added to the no nothing list on the organic beekeepers home page :>)) This has been the trend in every aspect of organics. Thirty years ago I moved from neat little rows of fertilized vegetables to wide beds, that were double dug; incorporated lots of organic material and used a covering mulch. That garden was phenominal and I've never gone back to the little row garden. Those concepts, that were so speculative back then, are standard practice now. I think the full moon and sythetic fibers stuff fell out through time. I don't know as I never really got into those aspects of organic gardening. And I think those kinds of things will disappear from small cell beekeeping as well. >And then they lament that the beekeeping mainstream doesn't adopt their ways. Of course, I'm exaggerating now, but this is the spirit, if not the letter, of what I hear from small cell advocates. So then, some use their beekeeping stories for other purposes than sharing useful information. And they wail and gnash their teeth when anyone disagrees with them. I found this behavior isn't limited to a single issue of beekeeping. Rather, it's often associated with those who have a strong personal investment in their own ideas and view beekeeping in moral terms of right and wrong. It's definately involves more than just keeping bees. >And finally small cell advocates try to hijack the words organic and natural, as if the definition of natural were 4.9 mm, or puffing smoke in a hive were an abomination of organics. Well, not if you use organic burlap bags for smoker fuel and organic matches! :>)))) And so it is with most things organic. The focus is most often on the method and not on the product. And many absurdities, which are often quite humorous, arise. But my gardening is much better for its organic component. And my beekeeping is much improved because of the small cell influence. Running a small cell test is a great idea. If given an honest shot and some careful observation, one will see some things not seen previously. And a beekeeper may even have a few new stories of his own. But if a beekeeper is looking for an reason to reject small cell observations, then a test isn't even necessary. Just look at some of the personalities involved. Or look at some of the absurdities connected with it. That should be enough. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 09:41:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & All, I wrote; > > I can explain more by talking better than by typing. Dick, you or anyone > > can call me to talk of my beekeeping anytime > Allen wrote; > Although conversation may seem quick and much easier than writing a > coherent, logical email, it is usually private and exclusive. > I answered Dick's questions and gave him the figure that really matters. What I wrote above was simply an offer to those who want details that no amount of typing from my part will give. It is no different than offering someone to email me privately to converse more intimately. There is a certain amount of impersonality in emails that I find can get misinterpreted a lot. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 09:51:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: how long before a varroa mite reinfests a cell? In-Reply-To: <049e01c5b08b$bd3ea830$af8b5142@D7DNF821> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > .... all of the intense drone cell removal that I do ..... the mites will evolve into mites that do not enter drone brood or worker brood where they would be safe. I did not take that too seriously. I think that’s a classic example of someone who’s opinion is being given as a fact. Other’s hear about it or read it on these internet discussions and the opinion gets spread around more as fact. Like you, Janet, I don’t think many take it too seriously. > Don't varroa mites have to feed on adult fluids for a while before entering the cell and birthing again? Does anyone know how many hours or days that would be? Well, here’s what’s written in ‘Mites of the Honey Bee’: “Mites artificially transferred from one cell to another, without passing any time on the adult bee, are still able to reproduce although at a reduced rate when compared with mites that have spent some time on an adult bee. However, under natural conditions mites need only a short time on the adult bee, less than one day, for their subsequent reproductive ability to be unimpaired. The minimum necessary phoretic period is probably linked to maturation of the sperm within the female.” Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 10:54:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Hijacking the word "organic" In-Reply-To: <006c01c5b091$26869d70$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Personally, I have both tried small cell foundation (somewhat casually), visited the Lusby operation several times.... however I have not adopted them. How long did you have your bees on small cell? Did it work as advertised? Four years ago, Keith provided me with a couple of reportedly already regressed small cell packages headed by Caucasian queens, and I hived the packages onto small cell cell foundation. One package never got up to speed. It didn't make it through the first winter. The other hive built up decently and drew the foundation out fairly good, although not perfectly; there were some misshapen cells. It overwintered and did ok the next season. I did see an occasional mite, but didn't take the time to do any mite counts. That hive didn't survive the following winter. I didn't see any diseases that I recognized nor did I see pms symptoms. As mentioned in a previous post I installed some packaged Carniolans onto the drawn small cell combs last year. They built up ok. I got a full super of honey from them, they survived a winter, but dwindled to a small cluster. However, they did build back up this summer. This season, though mites were readily seen on the bees along with deformed wings and the scattered uncapped larvae of pms. Nearby, I had a new top bar populated by a new package this spring. They too are full of mites. The guy who had our bees shipped in from California told me his supplier was having an awful time with mites down there. Did one hive have mites that drifted to the other? It could very well be. If so, which one? He reads BeeL posts and might have something to say on the matter. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 13:10:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) In-Reply-To: <200509031522.j83ExmBW009298@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Responding to Eric, Not sure if the last letter went thru. Here it is again Quotes ommited. So you dislike the way small cell advocates define organic. But you choose to call this "hijacked" You also dislike the way the NOS has defined organic,,, BUT you do not label this "hijacked"?????? That's how chemicals creep into organics, where they do not belong. The "it's more humane to treat" and not let bees or the poor beekeeper suffer. Agree! But it's the way I keep bees,,, and I walk my talk. A big cause bad past breeding practices. And there are MANY, MANY more cures and reasons. IMO, small cell accounts for only a part of the cure. I'll back you up! Same as many here are passionate about their breeding methods and the queens they raise, and promote it as the way bees should be kept and bred. Small cellers are also passionate about organic beekeeping and express the same passion in talking organics. I do not accuse others on this list of hijacking "methods of keeping and breeding bees", nor do I use such terms or name calling when describing their methodry. Are you really organic if you are treating your hives for pests? If you look at Webster's definition, this is not organic. The problem is that there is a constant pressure to warp morality or definations so that treatments can be justified. That's an example of the "every body's doing it so why can't I ,,,,?" You folks argue that the use of formic acid is ok because it is naturally found in honey. Hair and garlic are not found in the honey I harvest. ;>) Smoke is not usually used as a treatment. Joe ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 17:58:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Comb Orientation in feral hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My TBH is aligned roughly N - S with the entrance at the S end. I re-established it this year after a winter clean up, leaving maybe a quarter of an inch of the old combs as starters. They have been following the pattern with no problem but there is a distinct bias in the new comb towards the eastern side (where the morning sun strikes). Chris > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 23:44:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: how long before a varroa mite reinfests a cell? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike & Janet Brisson" wrote: >I would be very interested in how fast a varroa mite reinfests a cell. Average is 4.4 days. See OPEN MESH FLOORS here: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/September2005.htm Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 19:28:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Traynor Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar In-Reply-To: <015e01c5ae70$8d3a3720$af8b5142@D7DNF821> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janaet, I just wanted to THANK YOU for putting out your results on this list, especially with all the flack you have taken. Since I have always done my own test before passing on information I decided to see how well your observation with powdered sugar would work on some of my hives. One of the variables talked about online was that powder sugar as generally sold in the store contains corn starch. I decided to make my own powder sugar to eliminate that possible variable. Using an old stainless steel Vita Mix juicing machine, which can also grind grain into flour, I poured granulated sugar into the machine and ended up with very fine powdered sugar in less than a minute. As per your instructions online I poured in 2.5 cups of sugar onto the top 10 bars of each of 11 hives containing brood in various stages and their queen. These hives all have screened bottom boards and a sticky board below. For several days before no varroa where showing on the boards from natural mite fall. I check my hives inside once every week especially for signs of "K" wing and deformed wings, which would alert me to immediately do a sugar roll test and take other action. Having been away at bee conferences I did not get a chance to do my normal inspections for about 2 to 3 weeks. As a result I lost one hive to PMS in about the middle of this group of hives. I had been regularly uncapping drone brood and had not seen any high mite counts, but somehow this hive crashed. Rather than now doing my sugar roll on all the hives I decided to try some of your method with the sugar on the top bars. I say some because I did not follow your recipe exactly. Some of the hives were a story and a half, some 3 mediums and one with three mediums plus one deep, another with 4 mediums plus one deep. Yes, their was a lot of variations between the hives and quite a variation between the various queens lineage. After one hour I pulled the sticky board from the first hive, taking note of the varroa count. I discarded the wasted powdered sugar and varroa as you did into a trash bag and immediately removed it from the bee yard. All the hives were done by me exactly the same so that I could have a constant. I recoated each sticky board as I proceeded to do each hive in turn. The next day (your 24 hours) I again checked each sticky board and again discarded the varroa and powdered sugar. All the frames had the powder sugar removed to the screen bottom board or a very small amount to outside the hives The results showed the varroa, not just on the nurse bees as in a sugar roll but rather on the whole hive. The workers were really covered in powdered sugar. Checking the "white" bees the day of the test and the next day showed no damage to the bees. Their upset was similar to the standard sugar roll test. The process was faster than the normal sugar roll and produced an overview of the whole hive's condition, including the hygienics of the queens. Even after two cleanings of the sticky board I had hives with no varroa mite fall. Other hives had light counts (5 mites), some had a medium (30 mites) and some were heavy (60 mites or more) each time I cleaned the sticky boards. Those who want to treat can have a fast exact idea of what is going on in that particular hive without dismantling the hive. The percent of mites to the hive were directly proportional to the aggressiveness of the hive. I have done very extensive research online and in books and have not been able as yet to find a study that even suggests normally gentle bees become aggressive with higher mite counts. Just 11 hives is a small sampling but it is part of what makes beekeeping interesting too. There did not seem to be any order as to the results observed in the various hives and the hives were in a straight line. In other words there were no varroa to very little varroa just dispersed between the hives. Each hive is on its own individual hive stand 20" high and spaced about 3 feet apart. Smoke is used only if a hive is very aggressive otherwise I do not use smoke.. I am sorry this email is so long but I thought you may want to know why I am thanking you. It is unfortunate that we continue to shoot the messenger. Beekeepers should continue to report their findings by observation and let the rest of us do our own tests. Several beekeeping experts have told me this or that will not work when my own test proves that they do work. When asked if they have done tests the replies have been "I do not need to because it will not work". If a blind man a few hundred years before us can discover that queen mating is done outside the hive, would we have told him what could a blind man see in a hive? ;-) (This discovery occurred at a time period when the current "facts were that mating occurred inside the hive or that the drones inseminated the eggs in the cells" -Dewey M. Caron "Honey Bee Biology and Beekeeping") Michael Mike & Janet Brisson wrote: > Absolutely. Each time we do a treatment, we apply the powdered sugar 3 > times, 7 to 10 days apart, like Sucrocide. That's the timing to capture > mites as cap brood hatches. I've done it so far when there were no honey > supers. > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 09:18:47 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: how long before a varroa mite reinfests a cell? In-Reply-To: <004501c5b0d9$08968080$e0792a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter & all As a long time user of OMF (25 years+) I am always interested to read articles on the topic. The one of Peter's... http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/Newsletters/September2005.htm contains the following... " I think they also help with finding queens, as I have never yet found a queen on a mesh floor." I have never considered this myself, but I like to think that I am a good 'observer', I certainly can't recall any incident whereby a queen was observed on a mesh floor screen. So can I ask this list for any observations ? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Fall Back M/c, Build 6.02 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 04:40:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I just wanted to THANK YOU for putting out your results on this list, > especially with all the flack you have taken. Statements like this puzzle me. I just spent 10 minutes looking for the 'flack', and I'm afraid, as usual when I hear about people getting a rough ride for presenting an idea on BEE-L, I can't find any basis for the claim. What I usually do find is that a person or two asked some questions about the techniques and assumptions, and another person or two repeated the standard caveats in light of studies done and experiences reported by others. All quite mild, and showing respect, and interest. On this topic, powered sugar, in particular, discussion is ancient. Many, if not most of us, have used powdered sugar for diagnosis, if not treatment, and are somewhat familiar with the concepts. It's perren ial. Almost exactly a year ago, on September 12, 2004, one James Fischer, under the subject line, "Re: [BEE-L] Powered Sugar to treat for varroa mites", wrote, "I've used it from time to time. Do an archive search on both "powdered sugar" and "powered sugar" for details". For those who have never used the archives, see http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html. The search is easy to use, once you get used to it, and the material there is fascinating. We all appreciate, and -- I assume -- accept, Janet's assertions regarding her experience, and are curious about details, and how closely she is following previous users' methods. Frankly, I, personally, have little doubt that powdered sugar is working for her, and -- assuming she is doing some kind of analysis to extrapolate her mite loads, and is prepared to take additional measures should the method fail at some point to maintain adequate control -- that this may be the only control she needs well into the future. The reasons powdered sugar is working without assistance, given the application method, and to what extent, are less clear. There are often many factors that are never explained. In my own case, I have been getting away with very reduced treatments, and even skipping some annual applications. In other reported cases, varroa have not bee developing as expected, so I guess we all wonder how much of the success is due to the method, how much is due to the circumstances, and also what the future will bring. I guess, also, what I'm saying is that if people post to BEE-L, they should expect some queries, some doubt, and some challenge. This is a university server, and, after all, and although most of what goes on here is not all that rigourous, there is an expectation of some debate and examination of ideas. I, personally have benefitted immensely from being challenged, and have learned a lot over the years from those who disagreed with me. I have learned very little from those who never do.. Thanks to all who are willing to take the chance, and who set out their experiences for us to enjoy, consider, and debate with them. And thanks to those who have taken the extra effort to be tactful in pointing out my follies. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 08:48:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar In-Reply-To: <003d01c5b13d$206812a0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > I guess, also, what I'm saying is that if people post to BEE-L, they > should > expect some queries, some doubt, and some challenge. This is a > university > server, and, after all, and although most of what goes on here is not all > that rigourous, there is an expectation of some debate and examination of > ideas. I, personally have benefitted immensely from being challenged, > and > have learned a lot over the years from those who disagreed with me. I > have > learned very little from those who never do.. I read the original post and was not going to comment. However, your post brought me back to remembering what this list is all about. I have several problems with what was observed in the original post, especially the loss of one colony to PMS when there may have been no mites only three weeks before (there was no mite count noted so we really do not know). My other concern was that inspections for PMS were made every week (a bit much but seems to be normal for new beekeepers) and none was found. Inspections should be for Varroa, not the results of Varroa. When you see PMS you are too far gone in the process. The sugar roll should precede finding PMS. It should be based on Varroa drop. What was described was backwards and would lead to Varroa collapse. If a colony dies of PMS after three weeks and no Varroa were detected before that, then something is wrong with the detection method. I have seen many hives (one of which was mine) with high Varroa and no bees showing PMS. That is a clear indicator to treat. Even so, it still may be too late going into a Maine winter. Most new beekeepers only look for K-wing (which is easy to see when obvious, but not always) and do not see all the other indicators of PMS, including dead larva. It is interesting that deformed bees may hide in cells so you may never see them! Plus, it is not a matter of seeing one or more Varroa on drone brood, is is seeing any mites! One mite is a clear indicator to do a sugar roll to find out what is really going on, especially if you are inexperienced. Back to Allen's comments. Many of us who have been on this list for years see the same kind of posts year by year. Plus, we often see the same reaction to posts that question a method. Most of us really do not want to see someone go down a path that has been trod before and has not been successful or is marginal in its success. We need all the beekeeper we can get. But it does get old. I appreciate Janet's post where she took my comments and checked them with an experienced beekeeper. That is exactly what she should have done. (She will be a good beekeeper.) No post on this list should be taken as gospel, including this one. If that is unacceptable, there are plenty of other beekeeping lists and newsgroups where you can find acceptance and unchallenged bad advice. Also, just check the archives to see how often Allen and I disagreed on subjects. Lots of good give and take but both of us are still around. I have learned a lot from him, but we still disagree on certain subjects. No big deal. That is beekeeping. (Were the bees asked, they would probably disagree with both of us.) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 08:46:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway In-Reply-To: <004501c5b0d9$08968080$e0792a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This small cell test appeared in the September 2005 issue of Bee Culture, in the article "Commercial Beekeeping in Norway" by Hans-Otto Johnsen Me, nots responsible for typos. ;>) But I typed the best I could. Small Cell Test 2002-2004 The Test: * 40 colonies were tested in the same apiary. * 20 with cells 5.5mm measured in the broodnest. known as "Big cell group". * 20 with cells 4.9mm measured in the broodnest. known as "Small cell group". * All queens in the test apiary were sisters and mated in the same apiary. * when small cell colonies were given new foundation, the large cell colonies where given the same. Results: * Throughout the season in 2004 the mite population was significantly lower in the small cell group. ------> * Big cell group: The natural mite downfall average peaked at 7 mites per day, decreased and then increased again. * Small cell group: The natural mite downfall average in the small cell group peaked with 2 mites per day and then decreased steadily. ------> * Large cell group: An alcohol wash in Autumn during broodless period revealed 29% mites per 100 bees, the range was 3-64%. * Small cell group: An alcohol wash in Autumn during broodless period revealed 14% mites per 100 bees, the range was 3-26%. ------> * Large cell group: The 3% colony in this group gave a very small crop and was also weaker in strength. * Small cell group: The 3% colony in in this group gave an average crop. ------> * Small cell group: Averaged about one box stronger at peak strength in the middle of summer than the large cell group. ------> * Large cell group: Average honey crop was 79.2 lbs. range 17.6 - 125.4 lbs. * Small cell group: Average honey crop was 98.1 lbs. range 50.7 - 136.6 lbs. 24% bigger than the large cell group. -----> * An interesting observation was that the honey from each colony harvested the small cell group was more even, besides the top colony and had few at the bottom. The colonies with top crop were similar in both groups. -----> * Both groups were affected by chalkbrood. But anecdotal observation indicated that the large cell group was more affected. -----> * There was no observation that small cell size had any negative effect on the performance of the bee colony. Thanks to Prof. Stig Omholt, Dee and Ed Lusby, Dr. Eric Erickson, Staff at Dadant, Bee Culture Magizine, Raymond Cooper, Myron Kroph, Erik Osterlund, Hans-Otto Johnsen and others involved I may have missed. Best Wishes, Joe .__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ / \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ / \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ a \__/ \__/ _ \__/ \__/ Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA i r \__/ \ \ \__/ \ ‘Bees Gone Wild ........A p __ i s‘... (((( )0= \__/ BiologicalBeekeeping.com __/ \__ e __ /_/ __/ \ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__ __/ \__ __/ \__/ /S \__/M \__/A \__/L \__/L \__/ \__/C \__/E \__/L \__/L \__/ \ \__/B \__/E \__/E \__/K \__/E \__/E \__/P \__/E \__/R \__/ \__/ ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 09:16:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: More Small Cell Evidence,,,, was (Natural Beekeeping ,,, ) In-Reply-To: <200509030156.j831u94i005358@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- "D. Murrell" wrote: ......When I placed bees > that had successfully survived on small cell into > clean, large cell comb > hives, they had all the advantages attributed to > small cell bees except for > mite tolerance.... I do not know what you were seeing,,, Any colony will see advantages for a short time after drawing new comb. But recent evidence in small cell tests completed in Norway revealed that adding new comb large cell colonies did not give them the same advantages long term as small cell bees. You can see for yourself in the September 2005 issue of Bee Culture, in the article "Commercial Beekeeping in Norway" by Hans-Otto Johnsen I'm glad that there is new evidence to finally put this "new comb hypothesis" for the reason of small cell success to rest. RIP, and may it never rear it's ugly head again. ;>) What else does this new study refute? There is no AHB in Norway, so now the large cell advocates cannot say that it was AHB influenced. Get out da way!!! ,,, the large cell bee house of cards is starting to fall. ;>) Best Wishes, Joe Small Cell Beekeeper Pennsylvania ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 12:45:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Hijacking the word "organic"- prove it? Hi Bill and Everyone, >There is a lot more good science out there on things like OA, with proved success (I note that you use it), so which should I rely on, especially if I had 3,000 colonies and it was my livelihood? I can try many different approaches and trials (and have done so) and have no problem betting the farm, because I do not have a farm to bet. My initial focus on small cell/alternative methods, which started in 1996, was from a commercial perspective. In 2000 I left commercial beekeeping and then had the time and energy to play with a few hive. My experiments with small cell and top bar hives were part of that. And I didn't have to bet the farm to do it either. But it was hard to get the commercial out of this beekeeper. And I still thought about beekeeping from a commercial perspective. It's actually kind of funny as I thought hobby beekeeping was a shrunken version of commercial beekeeping with tiny extractors, etc. You should have seen me rip into my single beeyard, with a dozen hives, and be done with them in 15 minutes :>))) Anyway, that's where the oxalic came in, for I knew that small cell regression wouldn't be economically feasible for a commercial operation based on my experiences with it. Although the results may be great, the process is very costly in terms of both bees, production, time and money. Oxalic provided a great way to treat the bees, keeping them alive and producing, without contaminating the new small cell comb. In fact, I think it will provide a way for most beekeepers to instantly get off the pesticide treadmill. This will seem contraditory to the organic folks, but there's alot of difference between oxalic and organo phosphates in our hives/food. And as beekeepers realize the negative effects of their pesticide contaiminated comb and switch it out, small cell or some other natural based comb might be a good approach. That might even allow most beekeepers to eventually toss the oxalic. As my focus shifted from a commercial to a hobbiest perspective, (yes, there is a better way than a shrunken commercial approach to keep a few hives and it has taken me 5 years to discover it) my emphasis on hive data changed as well. I no longer keep or share detailed hive data beyond my own purposes. But I do report my observations and conclusions, so that others might find some value and work out their own tests/solutions. I hope that maybe even some researchers/students could get an idea or two for a project. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 13:12:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Natural Beekeeping -- Still going strong Hi Joe and Everyone, I might have missed something here, but will respond. >I don't think this can be attributed to clean comb alone. How can one be sure that the accompanying brood break does not factor in? There wasn't any break in the brood cycle. A deep box of clean, large cell comb was inserted above the broodnest. >Or the elimination of mite infested drone brood? No frames with brood in them were eliminated. >Or reorganization of broodnest? No broodnest reorganization occurred. >Or weeding off of varroa and other disease by artificial swarming? No shakedown were used. >Or the elimination of contaminated comb? No contaiminated comb. Both the large and small cell combs had never been treated with anything before the test. >Could also be the open broodnest effect,,, aiding the colonies ability to out brood mites and disease,,, Bro. Adam does state that "an open broodnest is essential,,," I run all my vertical hives in three deeps. And I use a checker board approach which keeps broodnest interference to a minimum. Both the large cell and small cell hives were run exactly the same way. The only thing that differed was the cell size. They weren't even requeened which resulted in some problems and a termination of the experiment three years into the test. Different beekeepers using other management techniques and equipment might get different results. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 13:32:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar Hi Guys, >The results showed the varroa, not just on the nurse bees as in a sugar roll but rather on the whole hive. That's one of the reasons I dabbled in powdered sugar blasting. See http://bwrangler.madpage.com/bee/gbla.htm I initially used it to get a whole hive sample of varroa mite infestation. I know blasting can be quite effect if used properly. But it's alot of work. It would be interesting to do a 'sugar dump' between the frames and then take a hive apart and observe sugar's distribution. Those little electrostatically charged bees might be more coated that I would think. And dumping takes much less time/energy than blasting although it takes more sugar. As a curious note, my first encounter with varroa involved powdered sugar. Back in the late 80's and early 90's, before any beekeeper I knew had seen a varroa, several of my hives developed PMS and got dusted with TM thinking it was a brood disease. The 'disease' persisted so they were isolated and treated again. The 'disease' would abate somewhat but would soon return. So I dumped a lot of TM down between the frames and the hives survived until the next season when I saw my first varroa mites in them! I now know it was the powdered sugar knocking down the mites that kept those hives alive. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 13:38:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar Hi Guys, Conventional sugar dusting is extremely disrupt to a beehive. Maybe sugar dumping is much less disruptive than blasting. It could be another factor to check out. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 11:57:19 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: Post Hurricane Inquiry In-Reply-To: <431821FD.4030200@cox-internet.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Charles Harper wrote: > Everything is just fine with the bee lab and the Russian project no > damages. Glad to hear it. Anyone in that area needing temporary housing or, especially, somewhere to keep their dogs, we are a good distance away (near Augusta GA) but we've got large concrete kennels sitting empty and 2 cottages that are open. We can also offer a couple of months work to someone willing to help with deer processing. I'm going into my 9th year with only soft varroa treatments (formic, IPM), 5 years with nothing but IPM, mostly using Russian stock and a motley mix of commercial, hygenic and 'feral' stock. Since my back's been flooey I could sure use help with the bees too. It's getting time to make a buch of queens with these genetics. Carolyn in Plum Branch SC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 00:15:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) Not being able to publish simple data that illustrates the benefits of some technique makes me wary of any claims. I don't think that kind of analysis of someone claims is unique to just the small cell topic either. I think Dick Allen asked some reasonable questions and I don't see any credible replies to his questions to make us all beleivers. Sounds like a bunch of cow manure to me. I'm sure that cell size could be a variable in the mite life cycle. However measuring the effects of variables in a complex system like a beehive is best left to someone with a good understanding of Factorial and Designed Experiements. Popular Science and other publications are littered with backyard garage inventors who thought they had uncovered various "breakthrough" discoveries only to learn later that life is not as simple as it may seam. May I suggest the following reading: Statistics for Experimenters, An introduction to design, data analysis and model building. The authors are known as Box Hunter (square) George E. P. Box, William G. Hunter and J Stuart Hunter. published in 1978 by John wiley and Sons. ISBN 0-471-09315-7 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 04:03:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike & Janet Brisson Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis, what a great website and wonderful article. Thanks for putting that link out there. http://bwrangler.madpage.com/bee/gbla.htm >From Dennis Murrell > It would be interesting to do a 'sugar dump' between the frames and then > take a hive apart and observe sugar's distribution. Those little > electrostatically charged bees might be more coated that I would think. > And > dumping takes much less time/energy than blasting although it takes more > sugar. Yes, you are right, when I first started 'dumping' the powdered sugar, I did early in the evening, thinking most of the bees would be home or on their way. I would watch the bees flying in, hovering above the sugar and suddenly they would be covered. I felt very confident that any bees in the hive would be covered. The phenomon of bees being electrostatically charged had happened to us before, when our pig chewed a hole in a bag of gluten flour and then ran off with it and left a zig zag 3" wide trail all over our yard. It was summer and we were busy so we left it. Besides, gluten is really messy if you add water and I wasn't sure how we were going to clean it up. The very next day, I noticed bees, 1000's of bees, hovering over this trail, about 3 to 6" above. On closer examination, I saw the bees were being covered by gluten, without ever touching it. You would have to imagine what a sight this was, 1000's of bees exactly over this very long trail. I immediatley contacted our state apiarist, Dr. Eric Mussen, who had me watch our hives for drops in populations. He did tell me that bees were able to digest most flours without a problem. I remembered a beekeeper telling me he feeds rye flour as a pollen subsitute. He was a diabetic and rye flour was the best for him to digest and so he figured (or read) that ry was good for the bees. After a few days of not seeing any ill effects (or dead bees) from the gluten, I was assured the bees were able to digest the gluten and we never had a problem. The thought of dusting the bees with rye flour did crossed our minds, our concerns, what a sticky mess that would be if the bees were not able to clean it up. I do love using powdered sugar, the bees clean it up so quickly. > As a curious note, my first encounter with varroa involved powdered sugar. > Back in the late 80's and early 90's, before any beekeeper I knew had seen > a > varroa, several of my hives developed PMS and got dusted with TM thinking > it > was a brood disease. Frank Carrier (written two books "Begin to Keep Bees" & "Keeping Bees") from San Jose, California, told me the same thing. He stated he never seem to get Varroa Mites. When I told him about using powdered sugar, he concluding he must be removing mites as he religiously treats his bees with powdered sugar and Terramycin twice a year. He has never used Apistan or anything else.. He also said he looses a few hives every year, he's not sure what to, but he always has lost a few hives a year every year for the last 30 years that he's been keeping bees. I'm pretty new at this, I saw your article was copyrighted. Does that mean I need permission to use your website or article? Could I have permission to use your link or article for our website? I'm trying to bring all of these articles together in one place. Thanks, Janet -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 08:19:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Meldrum Organization: Dave Subject: Partially capped supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Season is ending here in eastern Mass. and I have medium supers where the frames are about 60% capped. I can't harvest because of the uncapped liquid, but not sure what to do with the frames. I don't have a freezer. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 07:11:43 -0700 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Partially capped supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, at 60 percent capped, I'd sure harvest unless there's something different about the honey up there. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 10:22:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar Hi Janet and Everyone, >He did tell me that bees were able to digest most flours without a problem... I've watched bees gather agricultural dusts associated with feed grinding operations. They really like corn dust over most others dusts. I've often heard a few beekeepers express their concerns about the corn starch in the powdered sugar. And this concern has been repeated so often that some beekeepers accept it as a fact. But I doubt that it's true as I haven't seen any evidence, either in research or my own experience, to indicate that corn starch a problem. >I saw your article was copyrighted... You can use the info on my website anyway you choose except for commercial purposes. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 15:23:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Partially capped supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Meldrum wrote > I can't harvest because of the uncapped > liquid Why does the myth that uncapped honey cannot be harvested still persist? The only thing that matters is the moisture content - if that is OK then you CAN extract the honey. The cells are not yet capped because the bees have not filled the cells and are hoping (probably not the right word) for a further flow. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 07:38:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: so-called "natural" beekeeping (=4.9 mm cell) In-Reply-To: <200509050415.j853iwr8028455@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Brian Fredericksen wrote: > Not being able to publish simple data that > illustrates the benefits of some technique makes me > wary of any claims.... For simple data that illustrates the benefits of small cell techniques, Please see the BEE-L thread: [BEE-L] Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway This small cell test appeared in the September 2005 issue of Bee Culture, in the article "Commercial Beekeeping in Norway" by Hans-Otto Johnsen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:01:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar In-Reply-To: <200509051422.j85EIQDE022499@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D. Murrell wrote: >But I doubt that it's true as I haven't seen >any evidence, either in research or my own experience, to indicate that corn >starch a problem. > > Dr. James Tew- Bee Culture Mag- Sept 1999, Fall Feeding Plus many other places. Any "indigestible" addition to winter feed causes problems with the ability of the bee to void it in cold weather, especially Maine. The gentler the winter, the less problems. Most of the time the number of bees killed are low in those areas so not even noticed. (How can you see a 10-20% difference in the number of bees coming out of winter if that is what you see every spring?) There is little problem in the spring and summer. Also, corn dust and cornstarch are not the same. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 08:40:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Sounds like a bunch of cow manure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Brian & All, > I think D. A. asked some reasonable questions and I don't see > any credible replies to his questions to make us all beleivers. Sounds > like a bunch of cow manure to me. > I asked some reasonable questions about drones that got only one answer but did not completely give all the answers. That did not make his answer a bunch of cow manure. I knew already most of the answer to my original question but was just fishing to see if I could learn something new. Also just because you can not see the credibility in replies does not make what they say manure. It is post that have the tone that the one above has that stifles conversations and makes me think that much that is written in email replies is misunderstood and misinterpreted. Lets please get off the high horse and come down to earth so we can communicate. No one will learn anything new with attitudes like was expressed by the author of the last post. In affect of sounding just like the last post "Sounds like a bunch of cow manure to me." I can not understand how a post like that made it through the system but perfectly fine posts will not make the grade. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:34:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Facts about Oxalic Acid I am interested in using Oxalic Acid for mite treatment and kept running into conflcting information. So I asked a former colleague of mine who is a PhD chemist for a large Fortune 500 company to look into the use of OA for mite treatment. The following is the response I received which I wanted to share with the list: Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to you--I know about oxalic acid but not about treating hives with it, and I took the time to find out the details. Some of the bee-related Web sites that I checked out have incorrect information; here are some facts. The fact is that oxalic acid IS soluble in water, which means that it's also soluble in honey. It's slightly toxic to humans, but too much can kill you in a very unpleasant way. (Historical note: in Europe in the 1800s, oxalic acid was sometimes used as a poison (murder) and as a method of suicide. It wasn't pretty.) That said, spinach is full of oxalic acid and its salts (oxalates); it chelates or binds metal ions such as calcium and iron. Thus, the Popeye myth that spinach is a good source of iron is just plain wrong: there is lots of iron in spinach but it's tied up by the oxalic acid (it exists as the salt iron oxalate) and it can't be absorbed by our bodies. But spinach isn't at all bad for us. It's extremely unlikely that OA would pose a toxicity hazard in your honey. You probably know that humans can taste only five things (that is, our tongues have receptors for five tastes; everything else, we dectect with our noses). The five tastes are: sweet, sour, bitter, salt and unami (unami is that taste of the Asian flavoring aid MSG, monosodium glutamate). Don't ask me why we have taste receptors for unami. Things that taste sour are almost always acidic--vinegar (acetic acid) is sour. Citrus (citric acid) is sour. Oxalic acid also tastes sour, which doesn't bode well for your honey if it gets contaminated with oxalic acid. But that begs the next question: what happens to OA that's sublimed into a hive? Good question, with an answer that you won't like: it depends, and it's not possible to predict. You know that sublimation is the vaporization of a solid--a solid goes into the gas phase without first melting to a liquid. You've no doubt observed this yourself on a very cold winter day when there are ice crystals on your car winshield and they just disappear as you drive--they don't melt, they vaporize (sublime). Any vapor, water vapor or oxalic acid vapor, ultimately condenses (in the case of OA, back to a solid) somewhere where it's relatively cool. Where is that in a hive? I think that it depends on the season, day, and time. And on many other "bee factors" about which I know nothing. It is possible that a given hive has a perpetual "cold spot" where the OA will continue to condense. Over time, a lot of it could build up there as a big crystalline mass, which might not cause any harm unless it broke apart or dislodged and ended up someplace where it could contaminate the honey or...I don't know. It's also possible that the OA vapor will distribute itself throughout the hive and not build up in there at all. So the bees, the comb, and the honey may all contain small amounts of OA, which will be removed as bees die and as you take the honey. Probably not a big deal. The upshot is that oxalic acid probably doesn't pose a significant health hazard to your hives if you sublime it into your hives. If your honey got contaminated with a toxic level of it, the honey would have a sour taste and nobody would eat it. The last important thing to consider it the hazard to YOU if you sublime OA into the hives. Breathing OA vapor would be a nasty experience, to say the least, and it could be dangerous. A deep breath of nearly pure OA vapor would definitely do some damage to your lungs. Maybe it's no big risk if you have a couple of hives, but you've got so many that you (or your workers) are at some risk if the wind is blowing or if the OA is heated outside of the hives. This is probably the most hazardous aspect of using oxalic acid to control mites. Keep in mind that chemists sublime solids all the time, but we do it in a sealed vessel--vaporizing from, for example, the bottom of the vessel and condensing on the top of it. We don't mess around and risk breathing vaporized solids. If you do it, BE CAREFUL. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:41:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Meldrum Organization: Dave Subject: Re: Partially capped supers In-Reply-To: <002301c5b225$5f1d7fb0$307b2a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well I guess I may be the poor soul deluded by a myth. I was under the impression that that the uncapped cells were uncapped because the moisture was still too high. Is there a rule of thumb about when a frame can be harvested? How do you know if the moisture is OK? ---- >Why does the myth that uncapped honey cannot be harvested still persist? >The only thing that matters is the moisture content - if that is OK then >you >CAN extract the honey. The cells are not yet capped because the bees have >not filled the cells and are hoping (probably not the right word) for a >further flow. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 11:40:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: MWestall Subject: Re: Plastic five gallon containers - free replacements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John asked: > of the sun, etc, but wondered what a reasonable dependable life should be > for them? I shudder to think if these ones had been filled with honey > instead of water!! > > John Mayer > West-Central MO > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- Hi John & all on the list, If part of your concern regards replacing your buckets perhaps you (& other beekeepers) might find this direction useful: --- FREE food-grade 5-gallon buckets. --- Where? Your local bakery. Larger supermarket chains consume their icings in 3-5 gallon buckets. These are 'usually' free for the asking as it saves space from dumpsters/landfill. The smaller 1-2 gallon tubs could be used as top feeders if they're substantially constructed. Our local grocer occasionally gives up ~20/week in ~5 gallon size. Here 1-2 gallon plastic buckets are used as top-feeders for part of my apiary (-100 use buckets) picked up in quantity from another commercial operation with 3000+ hives which were used on a seasonal basis for years & years. Becuase of the larger size than most glass containers, plastic buckets can cut the time in feeding hives during spring. After the first couple years the plastic becomes brittle and crack easily so care is taken to avoid damage when handling/refilling, same as glass. Then again I've seen a plastic storage tub fall apart inside of a month. So I'll suppose your answer depends on the UV resistance to the specific type of plastic. Gleaned from a cursory search on the net: ------------------------------------------- - Long-term exposure to light causes ageing of the polymer due to the breaking of polymer bonds, cross linking or oxidation. The consequences are embrittlement and cracking which have implications in so far as packagings are concerned but may also cause changes in color or transparency. - - UV resistance into a number of categories: Level 0 - Unprotected or poor resistance - <0.5 years resistance to weathering Level 1 - Moderate protection or resistance - 0.5 to 2 years resistance to weathering Level 2 - Good protection or resistance - 2 to 5 years resistance to weathering Level 3 - Very Good protection or resistance- >5 years resistance to weathering 5. ------------------------------------------- Matthew Westall - EBees - Castle Rock, CO ---finishing our season warm/hot but still on a parital flow, about average this year __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 20:36:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar Hi Bill, I don't happen to have a copy to J. Tew's article. Did he actually test the effects of starch on the honeybee? I know lots of articles repeat the dangers of starch but I can't recall a single test ever being conducted. It's rather curious that starches are a common component of many pollens. I wouldn't recommend feeding starch as a nuitritional element to the bees. But a small amount in some powdered sugar whould introduce a minimal percent. Maybe even less than the pollen the bees eat. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:21:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Traynor Subject: Re: Sounds like a bunch of cow manure In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Keith, I could not agree with you more on this matter. I would think that at least most of us came to this or any other list, to learn by exchanging of our experiences whether good or bad in beekeeping. We should not be here to just take information on face value. However, email is not the best way to communicate because each person who reads any email will "understand" it differently. When you speak to anyone in person it is not just what you say, but how you say it. In an email the sender can be making a joke, a statement of fact or just their way of insulting. The information may be received as false, because the reader has other information or just many unanswered questions. The intent of any email is to pass on a small packet of information, not download a book. People having questions can politely ask the questions as you would courteously do if the person where there with you. Speaking negatively in public on any list is showing bad form in a public place. I realize that 99.44% of this list is aware of all of the above, but wouldn't it be nice if 100% of any list would listen and help those that they consider wrong in a proper and polite way? It is very acceptable to listen to anyone who disagrees with you, when they are not in your face, especially on a public forum. Michael Keith Malone wrote: >Hi Brian & All, > > >>I think D. A. asked some reasonable questions and I don't see >>any credible replies to his questions to make us all beleivers. Sounds >>like a bunch of cow manure to me. >> >> > >just because you can not see the credibility in replies does not make what >they say manure. It is post that have the tone that the one above has that >stifles conversations and makes me think that much that is written in email >replies is misunderstood and misinterpreted. Lets please get off the high >horse and come down to earth so we can communicate. No one will learn >anything new with attitudes like was expressed by the author of the last >post. In affect of sounding just like the last post "Sounds like a bunch of >cow manure to me." > >I can not understand how a post like that made it through the system but >perfectly fine posts will not make the grade. > > > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 20:05:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re; [BEE-L] Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe & All, Can any of the results of this test be found on the internet? So this was not merely a one season test, it looks like it was two Winters and three Summers? Is this an on going test and were there any treatments given besides the addition of new foundation frames? It would be interesting to see a future follow up on these to groups. Does this mean that in 2002 and 2003 the mite loads were comparable to each group? In this comparison not only were there fewer mite in the drop but mite drops decreased steadily in the small cell group compared to increasing in the big cell group, correct? According to this comparison Some in each group had only 3% mites per 100 bees, might this suggest that given enough time the big cell group could possible be genetically engineered to resist the mites multiplying? Of course other factors may have been involved making these two colonies so different. This is a very significant increase of honey harvest comparable and if this a repeatable result then the cost and work involved in switching to a smaller cell would more than pay for itself over a 3-5 year period. I do not quit understand this statement, could you please explain this one just for me. I would take this to mean that no treatments were needed to keep them into 2005 and beekeeping did not come to an abrupt end for this beekeeper along with the beekeeper losing interest in keeping bees, no? c]:~) - Just kidding! Are the complete research papers available for the community to review? Dissection of this experiment has got to come in the near future, the results of this test only proves what the small cell beekeeping community has been saying all along. It is really all a result of mathematics, just like music. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 07:17:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Partially capped supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Meldrum asked: > Is there a rule of thumb about when a frame can be > harvested? How do you know if the moisture is OK? Dave Sorry if my reply was a little sharp. You hold the frame horizontally and give it a shake - fairly hard, but not so much that the comb falls out. If no drops of honey come out then the moisture content will be fine. In fact, even if a small amount come out of some frames then this will make little difference when mixed into a quantity of honey. If you want to be sure, then buy a refractometer (get one that is calibrated for water in honey). You can then take samples from combs and also from your honey after extraction. You will quickly learn to judge what you can or cannot do. We usually extract large quantites of uncapped honey from oilseed rape; if we waited until it was capped then most of it would granulate in the comb before we could extract it. Water content averages 17.5% most years. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 08:26:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Facts about Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How frequently can you use oxalic treatments? I'm sure I've read somewhere that if they're repeated within the life of a single generation of bees then the cumulative effect can kill bees, but I don't know whether there's any basis for this. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 08:50:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan & Jan Subject: Re: Partially capped supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leave them on the hives- the bees will use them for winter stores Dan Veilleux Boone area In the Mountains of NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 09:29:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar- now pollen In-Reply-To: <200509060036.j86096vx019881@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D. Murrell wrote: >It's rather curious that starches are a common component of many pollens. > > Dennis, (Thanks, again, for the excellent posts on small cell.) I realize I am preaching to the choir here, but this is for some who may be hearing this for the first time. The concerns about winter feed revolve around ash content, granulation, mineral content, and moisture content. (There are more, including harmful materials, but these are the ones that apply to most bee winter feeds.) The issue with starch is ash content or indigestibility (as Professor Tew noted). Ash content shows what will be left in the bees gut that it must purge (poop). It is the non-digestible part of the diet (or what is eaten). The higher the ash content, the more they must purge. The same for anything that is indigestible. It has to be purged. The more of this you add to winter stores, the worse off the bees will be since they cannot always have cleansing fights in mid-winter in the North. Ash content is measurable and is done so with many nectars and honey. There were excellent studies done in England on winter feeds. The less mineral content and other indigestibles the better. Plain sugar syrup (nothing left in the gut) was the best followed by HFCS and the last was honey! (Lots on this list about that.) There are also many studies done on animal feed and ash content, since too much is not a good thing. High ash content can lead to problems even in spring and summer. You can get some bee kill but so little that you would only see it in a lab. Tartaric acid in sugar syrup is such an additive that does kill bees, yet it still is in many winter feed recipes. You just do not notice the harm. As for pollen, it is mostly for larva and eaten by young bees during their development. Adult bees do not need much of it at all and live mostly on honey since they are fully developed. Pollen is an adjunct to their diet only in feeding brood. (Lots about pollen in The Hive and the Honey Bee.) In the winter pollen is not an issue since you have little or no brood. (It is needed for winter stores, not for the adult bees but for brood/young bees in late winter before any pollen shows up outside the hive.) In the spring and summer there is also no problem since bees can freely leave the colony to purge. You can have stuff in pollen that may not be used by bees. Same with nectar. In fact, there are minerals in some nectars and honeydews that are very harmful to bees. So just because it is there and collected by bees does not shift it to the harmless category. (I love Jerry B's research on all the stuff bees either track in or bring back as food to the hive.) As an aside, most of the "corn dust" I see bees collecting is in early spring from bird feeders when nothing else is available. Once regular sources become available, they never visit the feeder. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:25:24 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Sounds like a bunch of cow manure MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Keith: I THINK the measure is strictly one of length, not censorship. Deleting all the previous post seems to be all that is required to get your message posted to the list??? Eunice -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:12:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Excessive quotes on BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eunice wrote, "I THINK the measure (of excessive quotes) is strictly one = of length, not censorship." =20 It is obvious to me that regardless how I explain the issue, people are = simply going to quote the entiriety of the article to which they are = responding. I do not know how to better explain the issue of excessive = quotes better that I have many, many times in the past. My attempts are = all in the archives. EVERYTHING that is distributed on BEE-L is in the = archives. Keeping everything in the archives consumes storage = resources. I have been directed by the University of Albany to conserve = disk space. "No excessive quotes" is not an arbitrary rule I made up, = it is a U of A directive. I estimate I am able to edit excessively = quoting posts on the average of 50% in size. That's an amazing = conservation of disk resources! Unfortunately I do not have the time to = edit all such posts in that manner, and on the occasions when I DO edit = posts, LISTSERV distributes the posts as if I were the author rather = than attributing the post to whomever originally submitted it. As I = stated last week, I will no longer edit posts that contain excessive = quotes. =20 I'm not sure is Enice is speculating or asking, "Deleting all the = previous post seems to be all that is required to get your message posted to the list???" Please note, I have now quoted the entirety of = Eunice's post! Whether I quote the entire post and respond, or quote = the first half and respond to the first half, and the quote the second = half and respond to the second half, by the end of this post I have = quoted the entirety of Enice's post, which now takes up twice the room = in the archives as it would have had I not quoted it. =20 Twice in the past week I have returned posts to senders because the were = modeled after this example. Twice this week the posts were resubmitted = simply editing out the quoted parts. Both posts when approved were = extremely vague in the approved copy. Both COULD have been written in a = manner in which the points were made in a way that a reader would = understand without quoting the previous post. Both time the authors = refused to write them in that manner. I don't have the time to play = that game. I cannot get into conversations explaining to each author = how to write their submission such that it will be approved by one of = the moderators. I have done that. See: = http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm=20 =20 I do not know why the concept of "excessive quotes" is so hard to = understand. I can only conclude that some people simply don't = appreciate it as an issue and will not be bothered with writing in a = manner other than "quote a point, respond to the point". I do not like = letting posts to BEE-L die in my inbox. I do attempt to coach new = authors. I sometimes attempt to coach authors who have been around a = while. I should not have to do so. I do not care for the role of gate = keeper. As long as I sponsor BEE-L the U of A casts me in that role.=20 =20 The short of it is, follow the guidelines and the posts go through. =20 =20 Aaron Morris - thinking damed if I do, damed if I don't. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:19:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Excessive quotes on BEE-L In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921018B0A9E@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: >I do not know why the concept of "excessive quotes" is so hard to understand. I can only conclude that some people simply don't appreciate it as an issue and will not be bothered with writing in a manner other than "quote a point, respond to the point". > We have a clash of civilizations- the BeeL and many newsgroups. Many newsgroups have the protocol to leave in all quotes so you can follow the thread. Which is why we on the BeeL often get off on rabbit trails and there is little in the post that has to do with the subject line. So new people who have been posting on a newsgroup wonder why they never make it on the BeeL when they are doing everything "right". Maybe a FAQ for the BeeL that directs new members to the rules of the list? Oh, but there is one! See the bottom of this and all posts to the BeeL. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:18:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike & Janet Brisson Subject: Re: How long before varroa mite reinfest cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I posed this question to California State Apiarist, Dr. Eric Mussen. Quick question, how long does an adult Varroa Mite feast on an adult bee before returning to the brood to start birthing? His reponse: The answer depends upon which mite you are watching. A mite that has been laying in a cell, already, is going to stay exposed only until she can find another suitable cell and move in - probably less than a day or two. A new, daughter mite that has not been actively laying tends to stay out of the brood cells for a number of days (6ish ?). This is the time that the mites are phoretic and get moved from hive to hive. Eventually, they find their way to the brood nest and go into the cells to reproduce. They aren't exposed a whole lot after that. The timing of our more recent control practices probably allows many of the older, established, laying mites to return to their business. However, a number of phoretic mites, which are supposed to be the next generation, should be affected by the treatments. Another aspect to this question is how long the treatment remains at a lethal level. Sucrocide has to contact the mites in an adequate amount to injure them. The bees seem to clean it up in a day or two. So, we really don't have many long-term treatments available: Apistan and CheckMite+ don't seem to be very effective and I am really concerned about the safety of handling Mite Away II, which is a 21 day treatment. I hope this information helps a bit. Eric. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 16:13:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Billson Organization: hopeless...my honeybees are better at it Subject: Re: Excessive quotes on BEE-L In-Reply-To: <431DC1A7.5080304@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Sep 06, 2005 at 12:19:51PM -0400, Bill Truesdell penned: > We have a clash of civilizations- the BeeL and many newsgroups. Many > newsgroups have the protocol to leave in all quotes so you can follow > the thread. This is not correct as a simple Google search using the words "usenet excessive quoting" will show. *Some* newsgroups *may* tolerate this but Usenet has always *highly* frowned on the practice. This stems from the early Usenet days when disk space was limited and news was pass over slow dial-up (sometimes long distance) phone lines. email is no different. It is *very* annoying to scroll through endless repeats of quoted, re-quoted and re-re-quoted mail (nearly unedited) only to find the equivalent "me too" at the end. As for bee-l specifically, it makes the archives *less* useful. Aside from wasting the University's generously donated disk space, searchers have to wade through all the noise to find the useful bits. If I get email containing excessive quoting, I stop reading and hit the "delete" key. I read the post the first time, my attention span is not [yet :-)] so short I need to see it again (and again and ...). BTW, *I* define excessive as a screenful (24 lines) or more for no good reason. Aside to Aaron and the other moderators: I empathize. There is no reason you should have to waste your time playing copy-editor because others are too lazy to do their own. > Which is why we on the BeeL often get off on rabbit trails > and there is little in the post that has to do with the subject line. Hint: When this happens either the thread is over and should die. Or start a *new* thread with a *new* subject. Sometimes it is acceptable to keep the same thread but change the subject line, e.g. Subject: beekeeping (was: basket weaving). bob -- bob billson email: reb@nodot.org (primary) ham: kc2wz /) gpg key: 24B7FA67 reb@elbnet.com beekeeper -8|||} "Tír gan Teanga, Tír gan Anam." Linux geek \) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 17:33:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Facts about Oxalic Acid In-Reply-To: <206.8abd7cc.304ee4fd@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-14524D97 Oxalic dribble can only be administered once, but Oxalic vaporization can be repeated. Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 - Release Date: 8/30/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 14:39:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Excessive quotes on BEE-L In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921018B0A9E@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Aaron Morris wrote: > I do not know why the concept of "excessive quotes" > is so hard to understand... I understand the difficulty of of your work, as I do help moderate a list or two. I have observed however that some posts on BEE-L get rejected for excessive quotes, and then another post seems to appear that has similarities of abundant excess quoting. This dosen;t bother me but,,, IMO, without having strict rules as the number of lines per post members can quote. The 'excessive quote' rule will remain a ambiguous flimsy rule at best, and as a result subject to abuse by not only the 'list member' but also the 'moderators'. I always tried to post a snip of the previous post, so that any person that is searching the database can easily understand the intent of the post. But if a minimal amount of snips are not allowed, IMO it becomes difficult for anybody to successfully research discussions on the database to get the answers they need. This is known as the 'Jeopardy' effect, you are given the answers, but have to go to another post to see what the question was. Your doing a fine job moderating, but good luck fighting the excessive quote violations, you have your hands full. Best Wishes, Joe ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 14:48:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Excessive quotes on BEE-L In-Reply-To: <20050906201357.GA7005@nodot.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Billson mentioned the annoyance of scrolling through endless quotes to find a ‘me too’ at the end. Well, on many of those unmoderated groups, quite often, that really does happen. Mercifully, although Aaron and the other moderators will sometimes bend the rules, they do weed out most of those quotes that quote other quotes, that quote other quotes, that quote..... Thanks guys, I for one, much appreciate it. (and I’d bet most agree with Bob’s remarks that, incidentally, I did not quote.) It isn’t that difficult for anyone to bookmark the URL for the BeeL archives: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html into their browser and check on the original message if they are reading a post and don’t recall exactly what was originally written. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:53:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Re; [BEE-L] Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Keith & All, I haven't found anything on the web about the Norway small cell test just yet. Might be able to get info from the man in charge: prof. Stig W. Omholt Agricultural University of Norway Department of Animal Science P.O. Box 25 N-1430 AAS NORWAY Email: stig.w.omholt@... He has made some posts on BEE-L in the past. The test started in 2002, maybe Dee, Hans-Otto or Erik Osterlund or Bee Culture might have info on more up to date test results, if it was allowed to continue into 2005. There were no treatment administered in the Norway small cell test, except for an initial treatment of OA in order to even out mite populations and start with low mite counts. Hans states on the article that they are continuing the test with a new breed of bee, "The new queens introduced were of another breed, carnilolan. None of the colonies was treated with any substance for the mite". The mite count was significantly lower in the small cell group. The findings are that the large cell group averaged a peak if 2 mites per day and the large cell group averaged a peak at 7 mites per day. In my experience, there are many factors contributing to mite levels in individual colonies, levels can vary from year to year, for this reason a low mite count may not necessarally reflect that there is an actual genetic resistance. Although, low counts would be an item to consider in making selection decisions, I myself do not put much weight on mite counts by themselves, and don't even bother counting them. Instead, I choose hygienic testing and over all performance in selecting for possible genetic resistance. I agree with you that the significant increase of honey harvest in the small cell group would more than pay for expenses made by switching over to small cell. You can see that the range of surplus from the small cell group was = 50.7 - 136.6 lbs. And the range of the large cell group = 17.6 - 125.4 lbs. A more predictable average surplus in the apiary would suggest to me that the small cell group is somehow on average better suited, healthier or more in tune over all with the environment for them to out compete the large cell group by 24%. For example, IMO, you do not want to see a wide range of anything but genetic variation in a bee yard. When you have a wide range of winter failures or honey harvest or colony strengths, you know that you have some serious problems and or some equally serious selecting to do. Looking at the evidence in the small cell test. The small cell group has on average out-competed the large cell group in every single area. Even though many large cell beekeepers boast of 'bigger payload' capabilities in large cell bees. These small cell bees on average have managed to out-produce the large cell bees in the broodnest and up in the supers. This can only mean that the small cell group was more fit than the large cell group, and the use of small cell comb allowed for a higher state of health for the colonies in the small cell group. Best Wishes, Joe PA ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 23:03:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Re; [BEE-L] Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >for an initial treatment of OA in order to even out mite populations and start with low mite counts. Crude method. Not what a researcher would do. Many other ways to even out the varroa load. Also what says the OA evened out the load? A one season test proves zero in my book with new hives! >Hans states on the article that they are continuing the test with a new breed of bee, He should as the element of chalkbrood has compromised the published test results. > The findings are that the large cell group averaged a peak if 2 mites per day and the large cell group averaged a peak at 7 mites per day. Am I missing something? Both groups do not need treatment. I believe the OA treatment did the trick! > the significant increase of honey harvest in the small cell group would more than pay for expenses made by switching over to small cell. I think your calculator needs a new battery! Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar- now pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/09/05 07:24:50 GMT Daylight Time, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: <> At the same time, there's anecdotal evidence of some strains building up better when wintered on heather honey, which has a small percentage of protein, and presumably a relatively high ash content. Given that significant areas of Britain would once have had sufficient heather to make it a significant honey source, there's nothing very surprising there. I don't know whether anyone has done any research on wintering in different races of honeybee, but it's possible, I'd have thought, that some would have a greater ability to retain ash in the gut over long periods than others. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 06:43:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I did a post explaining my interpretation of the results but the > post got sent to file thirteen =20 C'mon Bob, your post followed the pattern of quote a point, respond to = the point. When all was written and done you quoted 90% of the previous = post. We've discussed this off list. Quotes is quotes. It's a = University mamdate that I (we) must follow. I do not like when posts = die in moderators' inboxes, especially when they contain good = information. At times I let "rich" posts go through, but then = subscribers observe that sometimes quotes are allowed and sometimes = they are not and wonder how many quotes constitutes "excessive" OR are = the moderators just playing favorites? =20 Follow the guidelines and posts go through. Bend the rules (as I did on = the cow manure post) and you takes your chances. =20 Aaron Morris - thinking damned if I do, damned if I don't! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:47:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Facts about Oxalic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley asked: > How frequently can you use oxalic treatments? I'm sure I've read somewhere > that if they're repeated within the life of a single generation of bees > then > the cumulative effect can kill bees That seems to be the convential wisdom, but I have dripped oxalic (3.5%, 5ml per seam) twice at an interval of two weeks with no apparent ill effect. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 04:43:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Re; [BEE-L] Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway In-Reply-To: <002b01c5b361$2ae864c0$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: >...what says the OA evened out > the load? The evidence says that OA did a good job of evening out the load. The factual data recorded in the test indicate that both test groups large and small were within one mite per natural mite fall in April of 2004. The small group at about .25 and the large group at 1.20 mites. >...A one season test proves zero in my book with new > hives! You should update your book. Any colony that out-competes others in 'one season' shows an ability to thrive and superior health, and will beat out the slackers in the genetic pool. I find that early thrivers do better the second and third year than the under-performers do, and I make many cuts based on one season. I regularly eliminate several feral swarms I catch within 3 months of capture. This 'one season' assessment is critical for fast identifying the fit colonies from the duds and not wasting time on them. The selection of fit colonies does not require that the losers get a second year to prove themselves. IF you are observant, it is obvious much earlier which is fit. You as a breeder should know better than anybody else that you can prove allot in one season! I see you posing one season results all the time right here on BEE-L. ;>) > He should as the element of chalkbrood has > compromised the published test results. No, the existence of chalkbrood has added an equal element of stress to the test groups in it's entirety. Colonies should always be expected to perform well under several such stresses. The test results suggest that the large group was unable to cope as well with the added stress of chalkbrood and mites as the small cell group did. This was reflected in the large cell group with less productivity and fecundity in the broodnest. I want bees that are able to cope with several stresses at a time. I choose my worst location with minimal forage for early stages of assessing, as a tool for quickly identifying the fittest. >I did a > post explaining my > interpretation of the results but the post got sent > to file thirteen by the > moderators! Maybe you do not understand the concept of excessive quotes. ;>) Best Wishes, Joe PA ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 04:47:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Excessive quotes on BEE-L In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen offers a link to the archives. Thanks, Dick! I use the archived topics, usually about once a month, to go back and filter through the pertinent conversations and discussions. Otherwise, I have to sort through the e-mails that come my way. And at times, I'll miss a couple of days checking e-mails which means I need to go back and sort. The archives is a great resource! I can see how one could feel the need for quoting lots of previous info, especially if one is not in the middle of the on-going discussion, or if you feel you joined the discussion late because you don't check your e-mails frequently. But the archives is sorted by topic which really helps keep my head in the stream of the discussion. When I joined this discussion forum, I set up a separate, designated e-mail address to handle all my "bee-mail." I've joined several groups, and they come to this "bee-mail" only address (yahoo and hotmail will set you up easily and for free). Then I usually delete them as I read them, or about once a week try and sort through the common threads (which means I need to go back and find the original e-mail to see how this discussion got started, and how it is now going a different direction on a different track). I can see the value of lots of quotes to keep my head in the discussion, but the archives is the best answer. We have a great asset and wonderful people behind the scenes who make this work. Honoring a request to limit old quotes is easily done. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 07:23:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glad to see a test published. This is an interesting and important topic, and more work needs to be done. For many reasons, this is a tough topic to get a handle on. There are so many potential confounding factors, and I congratulate those who have made the attempt. Also my thanks to those who stick to writing about bees and not the list, and concentrate on writing good posts rather than stooping to second-guess the moderators or insult one another. You all know who you are. As for quotes, the following are indispensable, since I am addressing each of these points, and cut the parts I am not using, and I would simply type them or something similar. You'll all note also, I hope, that I am using -- or attempting to use -- proper markings (>) to distinguish the quoted material from my own words, a habit that many -- including some who rush to criticize others harshly -- might wish to adopt, if they want us to bother to read their messy and jumbled ramblings. Using an email program properly and adhering to the list's rules is really not all that tough, folks. Consider it a (pick one) a.) IQ or b.) senility test. I do. > * 40 colonies were tested in the same apiary. A manageable and reasonable size. Being in the same apiary has its advantages and disadvantages, but this is always a problem. Neither approach is without its drawbacks.. > * 20 with cells 5.5mm measured in the broodnest. known as "Big cell > group". Yup. That is big, alright, and has little meaning to North American beekeepers, since AFAIK, there is no 5.5 brood foundation available here. 5.4 is the largest I know about, and that is rare. 5.3 is common. In Europe, however, I understand that very large sizes are more common. > * 20 with cells 4.9mm measured in the broodnest.known as "Small cell > group". That *is* small, for most North American beekeepers. > * All queens in the test apiary were sisters and mated in the same apiary. This is an interesting part. The genetics will have a large bearing on the results. Some bees are naturally larger than others, and some are more inclined to carry large varroa loads. > * Large cell group: An alcohol wash in Autumn during broodless period > revealed 29% mites per 100 bees, the range was 3-64%. > * Small cell group: An alcohol wash in Autumn during broodless period > revealed 14% mites per 100 bees, the range was 3-26%. An examination of the raw data would be interesting to determine the scatter and the means. > * Large cell group: The 3% colony in this group gave a very small crop > and was also weaker in strength. > * Small cell group: The 3% colony in in this group gave an average crop. These, apparently, are individual colonies and we do not know why they are at 3%. Each might have a different reason. In fact that is almost certain. Brood interruption, drifting and other factors could contribute and also affect the mite loads. Comparing them may not be meaningful. An examination of the study and its data tables should help understand this better. > * Small cell group: Averaged about one box stronger at peak strength in > the middle of summer than the large cell group. The ratio of brood area (density) for the same number of cells between 4.9 and 5.5 is about 100:126 Without reading the study, I'm assuming that this could be a big influence on build-up, depending on the initial colony size, etc. In our own test a few years back, we found significant differences in build-up rates between hives on 5.25 mm and those on larger (5.35 mm) foundation. > * Large cell group: Average honey crop was 79.2 lbs. range 17.6 - 125.4 > lbs. > * Small cell group: Average honey crop was 98.1 lbs. range 50.7 - 136.6 > lbs. 24% bigger than the large cell group. Again, I hink we tneed more info to comment intelligently. > * Both groups were affected by chalkbrood. But anecdotal observation > indicated that the large cell group was more affected. Without having numbers, I can't know if this was a significant factor or not, and how much more affected the large cell group was. From the fact that it takes more space for large cell to raise similar amounts of brood, it folows that chilling is more likely in that group, and chilling has been related to fungal diseases, I believe. > * There was no observation that small cell size had any negative effect on > the performance of the bee colony. That is good to know. > Thanks to Prof. Stig Omholt, Dee and Ed Lusby, Dr.Eric Erickson, Staff at > Dadant, Bee Culture Magizine, Raymond Cooper, Myron Kroph, Erik Osterlund, > Hans-Otto Johnsen and others involved I may have missed. Indeed. Thanks to those folks for doing this work. I'm hoping to see lots more on this topic. Of course, my personal position is with Dennis. Foundation is an abomination to the bees, and strictly for the convenience of beekeepers. I think we took a wrong turn 100 years back and the future lies in another direction, but that is for another day -- or people can search the archives. And lastly -- begin quote -- .__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ / \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ / \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ a \__/ \__/ _ \__/ \__/ Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA i r \__/ \ \ \__/ \ 'Bees Gone Wild ........A p __ i s'... (((( )0= \__/ BiologicalBeekeeping.com __/ \__ e __ /_/ __/ \ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__/ \__ __/ \__ __/ \__/ /S \__/M \__/A \__/L \__/L \__/ \__/C \__/E \__/L \__/L \__/ \ \__/B \__/E \__/E \__/K \__/E \__/E \__/P \__/E \__/R \__/ \__/ -- end quote -- Hey, Joe! What's with the monster vanity sig line. The moderators have been cutting you and some others a lot of slack. It is clogging the archives. Less is more. allen (Cow manure makes allen crabby. I'm here to discuss bees. Why don't we?...) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 08:19:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar- now pollen In-Reply-To: <149.4c5bf31a.30501b02@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley wrote: >At the same time, there's anecdotal evidence of some strains building up >better when wintered on heather honey, which has a small percentage of protein, >and presumably a relatively high ash content. > Different winter conditions between the US and Britain. Much milder so the bees have many opportunities to fly. In the US, "If they cannot fly they will die." At least that is what I think I heard on Court TV. (They will not die but they can get dysentery. I must be stopped before I pun again.) Bill Truesdell (Who read too much Punch when young. Or maybe drank...?) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 08:38:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Tremblay Hugo (DREST) (Chicoutimi)" Subject: formic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings fellow listers, A beekeeper ased me today if he could use formic acid that was bought 2 years ago. It was kept in a tight container. He was worried because usually when he treats, there is an immediate humming in the hive and the bees tend to be excited for a few minutes. But when he treated last week, there was little reaction by the bees. So I wonder for how long can a beekeeper keep his formic acide before it looses its qualities (given that it is kept in a tight container) ? Thanks Hugo Tremblay Jonquière, Québec Dr Hugo Tremblay, m.v. Vet-RAIZO Régions 1 et 11 MAPAQ-CQIASA 1600 rue Bersimis, bureau 2 Chicoutimi, Qc G7K 1H9 (418) 698-3530 poste 226 fax: 698-3533 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 07:57:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My friend Aaron and I have always discussed these kinds of issues off list but glad we can discuss at least the other side of the coin for all to see. I do not want to kill the messenger although I find fault with the message he brings! > post followed the pattern of quote a point, respond to the point. Exactly! Otherwise posters ramble on. I am not interested in nit picking but discussing points put out by the poster which I see as either incorrect or I disagreee with. >When all was written and done you quoted 90% of the previous post. I believe I responded to 90% of a post! I believe would not have been a big deal if I had done as others do which is quote 10% and then respond to 10%. > It's a University mamdate that I (we) must follow. I think we agree on this point but creates a problem for discussion reasons. Bee-L people which have not been reading the discussion from the start do not have a clue what we are discussing. Others see (in the case of the Joe Waggle last post) a small cell person giving a strong pitch for small cell without discussion of his points using statements like: " The large cell house of cards is about to fall". I see nothing in the primitive research in the Bee Culture article or posted by those on BEE-L which upholds the long standing position of the small cell group which says: "small cell is the only way to keep bees" "it is what it is" as far as internet beekeeping archives go! Tough to search and time consuming. Almost never quoted from on BEE-L unless by a moderator to show the list the archives are available. When I joined BEE-L I went back to the start and read every post. Took a whole winter in those days. I believe I have read every post written since. By doing so you get a feel for the beekeeping knowledge level of those posting. All levels from researcher to the beekeeper with a single hive are on the list. All opinions and information is welcome but points raised which are questionable need questioned or else new beekeepers will accept those opinions as fact. They need to see both sides of the coin and then make up their own mind which is what a discussion is all about. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 14:19:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pencaemawr Subject: Re: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway In-Reply-To: <00a201c5b39e$cc0a7810$87dffed8@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > >> * Small cell group: An alcohol wash in Autumn during broodless period >> revealed 14% mites per 100 bees, the range was 3-26%. > > > An examination of the raw data would be interesting to determine the > scatter > and the means. > Surely the mean is 14% and the scatter is 3-26%, unless you have some other measure in mind. John Burgess (only relevent quotes and no excessive signature. Will I succeed?) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:47:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar- now pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/09/05 13:48:35 GMT Daylight Time, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: <> Different weather, I agree; I don't know a lot about the US climate. They can easily go several weeks without flight over here, often due not so much to cold as to wet.How long are they likelyt to go over there? Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 10:32:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Facts about Oxalic Acid - multiple treatments? In-Reply-To: <000a01c5b2f1$f5869eb0$04792a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > That seems to be the convential wisdom, but I have dripped oxalic > (3.5%, 5ml > per seam) twice at an interval of two weeks with no apparent ill effect. This is not a comment about Peter's observations, just that his is only one data point, and there is a lot out there that indicates otherwise. http://www.apis.admin.ch/host/doc/pdfvarroa/York/Charriere.pdf The link is to one of many studies (I picked it at random from a quick google search) that say the same thing, that multiple OA drips are harmful to the bees. The studies also mirror what continental beekeepers have observed and posted here. The main problem with OA is treating when the colony is broodless, something easily done in northern cold climates but not in warmer southern climates. If you do it when the colony is broodless, you effectively kill nearly all Varroa, or over 95% as a minimum. OA can be applied down to freezing, so the colony is usually broodless (in November in Maine. Still fairly tropical, 40sF in the day and 30s at night.). I have heard of multiple applications made here in Maine, but usually by those who had no choice because of high Varroa loads and no broodless period (summer). Problem with a report of no harm from them is how do you tell what killed off the colony, PMS or OA? Or if they even noticed a decrease in bees if it survived? If it was noticed, I am sure Varroa would get the blame. Which brings me back to a favorite topic. Unless you are conducting a controlled study, I know of few beekeepers, no matter how experienced, who can tell that 10-20% (or even more!) of their bees died during a short period in the summer when you have brood being raised at the same time. I know I am one of those. When you have wall to wall bees and brood, you can lose a lot of bees and not even have it register since new bees replace them. Winter is where the real effect comes in, because then there is no brood to replace those dead bees. Then you will see a difference in spring. Part 2 of one of my favorite topics- if the beekeeper's practice yields 20-40% unnecessary bee deaths over the winter and they have been doing the same thing forever, they will never know it since they treat all their bees the same improper way and get the same small number of survivors every spring. Hence, they will defend their practice as having no effect since they see none. And blame their location for poor honey crops. Bill Truesdell (This post has been checked for unnecessary quotes and has been approved by the Board of Unnecessary Quotes (BOUNQ- almost pronounced bounce, the action of the Board to UNQ), Allen Dick, Chair emeritus) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 11:00:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar- now pollen In-Reply-To: <1c6.3056d577.30504987@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley wrote: >Different weather, I agree; I don't know a lot about the US climate. They >can easily go several weeks without flight over here, often due not so much to >cold as to wet.How long are they likelyt to go over there? > > > Freezing weather from late December through February. Our average day temperatures are slightly above freezing in December and below freezing in January and February. Night time averages are below freezing from October through April. The large creek (in Maine a creek, like ours, can be 500 feet and more across) by our home freezes in December and does not clear of ice until April. We can have heavy snow in April and May. So our winter for the bees goes from October through March-April. Limited flying up to December, once or twice to March and more frequent after that. I did a check once, and Stockholm has a milder winter than Maine. We hope for a January thaw, but have not seen them recently. Usually February. One year, December never got above freezing even during the day. Mostly in the low 20sF at the warmest. Mostly in the teens. Winters vary here in the US and Canada. It can be much colder in Alberta, Canada with a lot more snow, but they also get much warmer summers and have large swings in temperature. They will get warm weather while we stay cold. The they will get colder but we stay fairly constant. The ocean tempers our temperature swings. Then when you get to the far northwest US, it is mild. Even Alaska can be mild comparatively speaking and depending on where in Alaska you are. Bill Truesdell (Passed by BOUNQ) Bath, Mane (Where there are 2 seasons, winter and the 4th of July) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:12:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Surely the mean is 14% In the simplest sense, perhaps, if we simply arithmetically average the two extremes. However, I do not know if these extreme cases are part of an orderly pattern, or isolated freaks. I also do not know the values of all the samples, or how the samples are distributed between these end points. Is there a cluster (or clusters) of points?... or a random scatter? This matters much. > and the scatter is 3-26%, unless you have some other measure in mind. That is the range, but how the samples are plotted in that range is the question. Studying the data tables in studies will sometimes lead one to question the conclusions reached by the authors, and whether conclusions can really be made form the data. Let me hasten to add that I am not suggesting any such thing in this case. At this point, I simply do not know. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:55:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Facts about Oxalic Acid - multiple treatments? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > This is not a comment about Peter's observations, just that his is only > one data point, and there is a lot out there that indicates otherwise. Bill is right - and I offered it as such (and I have links to the apis.ch site on our website). I now only use oxalic on colonies returning from the heather when the weather is rather cooler than I would like for using my preferred treatment of thymol crystals, but this was in the early days of varroa when I was having anxiety attacks about my chosen path! When everyone else around here was using Apistan, I decided to go down the 'soft' route for a number of reasons - but I suffered some very long winters waiting to find out whether I had made a good decision. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:33:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway In-Reply-To: <00a201c5b39e$cc0a7810$87dffed8@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- allen dick wrote: > Hey, Joe! What's with the monster vanity sig line. I usually opt not to use my sig when posting here, but I forget now and then to click on the little box. I'm trying to find a small cell verson, so it isn't such a monster. ;>) Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:00:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar- now pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill & All, My, albeit, best anecdotal observation is that the best survivors in my apiaries fly the least in the winter, wait until more favorable weather in very early spring to fly, and are the most conservative. They are fed no white sugar or HFCS. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:21:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re; [BEE-L] Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & All, Could you please tell me what a researcher would do to even out the varroa load in a test such as this one with out using OA or something that would contaminate the wax or neurologically damage bees and queens? I thought this was a three season test which was started 2002 and went until 2004? that's 2002, a winter, 2003, a winter, and then 2004, with some data in 2005 also. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 06:40:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Facts about Oxalic Acid - multiple treatments? In-Reply-To: <431EFA11.5070509@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-66C4724F The main problem with OA is treating when the colony is broodless, something easily done in northern cold climates >so the colony is usually broodless (in >November in Maine. I talk regularly to Tony J, your state inspector. Last January, he was setting up observation hives for a bee meeting. He found brood in the colonies he opened. I treated with vaporized Oxalic last November, and had a wide range of success. Some colonies had a large population of Varroa in early summer, while I could find none in some yards. I'm guessing that colonies with brood was the problem. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/91 - Release Date: 9/6/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 08:21:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Facts about Oxalic Acid - multiple treatments? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Last January, he was setting up observation hives for a bee meeting. He > found brood in the colonies he opened. In my experience, the timing of the broodless period can vary widely from colony to colony in the same yard. In our region, some have no brood as early as September/October and others much later. By late January, most have had a little when I have checked. Some hives may never be broodless, but I suspect most shut down for a little while. Broodlessness may depend on when supercedure or requeening last occurred, the age of the queen, population dynamics, presence or absence of honey and pollen, etc. and many other factors. The timing and length of broodlessness will depend also on the race, since some strains are much less inclined to cut back when flows are reduced or shut off, while some will shut down on any day there is no flow. That is one reason why beekeepers use several oxalic evaporations. While they are hoping to get the mites that were in brood, if there was any when last treated, and also hoping to hit a broodless period in hives that had brood at that time. Having a variety of strains in a yard makes prediction and management more difficult, but, if the beekeeper is consistent and does not continually change schedules or add new stock, eventually the strains that do not thrive under the system survive, and the ones that are out of phase are extinguished. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:42:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Facts about Oxalic Acid - multiple treatments? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I treated with vaporized Oxalic last November, and had a wide range of success. Some colonies had a large population of Varroa in early summer, while I could find none in some yards. I'm guessing that colonies with brood was the problem. For this reason, among others, I prefer to dribble. I need to open the hives and look at the frames. It takes little time to check a couple of the center frames for brood. Not that I could do anything about any colonies with brood. Other than, delaying the treatment and waiting/hoping for another nice day... :) Colonies with brood in the middle of winter...could they be headed by very young, late summer queens? Any thoughts? Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:03:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Facts about Oxalic Acid - multiple treatments? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050908063214.04172ab0@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer wrote: > I talk regularly to Tony J, your state inspector. Last January, he was > setting up observation hives for a bee meeting. He found brood in the > colonies he opened. A colony does not stay broodless all winter. In January is not unusual to find brood, in fact normal, especially Italians which tend to brood up early. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:31:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Facts about Oxalic Acid - multiple treatments? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/09/05 14:11:15 GMT Daylight Time, allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM writes: <> Regular examinations over last winter showed that my colonies are probably never completely without brood, but that the nearest they come is around Christmas and New Year, when they're down to a patch of capped brood around the size of the tip of a finger. Given poor winter light and my unwillingness to shake bees off the comb at that time of year, I was looking only for capped brood. This only applies, of course, to my strain under my conditions. Four colonies were involved, three with new queens raised around midsummer; I noticed no difference between them and the hive with an older queen. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 10:29:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Just Wondering - Drone Brood Removal Kirsten Traynor wrote: >They used two drone brood frames in each hive. These were >removed on a 30 day cycle and replaced with a second set of two drone >frames. For the next 30 days the first two frames sat in a freezer. I thought it might be worth noting that there are more efficient rotations for drone brood trapping, if done on a larger scale. I used continual cycling drone brood trapping in over fifty hives this year, and I didn't have freezer space for fifty plus drone frames at all times. I also didn't want to have to remove all fifty plus drone frames in a single day's time, so I would remove frames from about eight hives every three days or so. That way I only had about eight frames in the freezer at any given time, and I only needed to have about eight extra frames instead of two frames for every hive. With careful planning I found the workload very manageable. I was able to make much of the work coincide with my regular work of swarm prevention, making splits, requeening, etc., and the surplus visits had the added benefit of an easy opportunity for a quick inspection to monitor queenright- ness, swarm pressure, need for extra supers, and so on. I can see potential in drone brood trapping for a lot more sideliners, in addition to hobbyists, especially for those who are already putting the time into getting "the most" out of each hive. As for what to do with the drone brood, I feed it to my chickens. Where else can I get a locally-raised, non-GMO protein source? But for most beekeepers feeding the thawed brood back to the bees sounds like the best bet. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:33:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Facts about Oxalic Acid - multiple treatments? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Given poor winter light and my unwillingness to shake bees off the comb at that time of year, I was looking only for capped brood. I often 'push' the bees aside a bit with my index finger to briefly expose the cells for a quick look. They oblige [or raise their abdomens in disapproval but move aside nonetheless]. Within seconds, they re-cover the cells. I don't shake bees off anymore since that always leaves bees on the frame (perhaps my bees have powerful leg muscles?:). Regardless of the weather. If I need to remove bees from a frame, I brush them off with a goose wing. I have a nylon brush but bees get stuck in it, try to sting it, and the goose wing gets the bees of the frames so much faster without angry protests from the bees. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:39:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Broodless period In-Reply-To: <82.2ff53b64.30519743@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A quick review of The Hive and the Honey Bee reinforced what I had been taught. The broodless period occurs after pollen and nectar sources die out, which for us in Maine is early/mid October. Allowing for the last of the brood to emerge would create a broodless colony in November, just what I was told by the Maine resident expert. That would correspond well with a broodless period in December/January in a milder climate and no broodless period when there are always pollen and nectar sources. This is the problem our Maine migratory beekeepers face since they move their bees to Florida so they end up treating when there is brood present. Hence they rely on something other than OA. It also occurs during the summer when brood laying can decrease with decreased nectar and pollen, something that happens here in August. That there is brood in January is due, in part, to keeping the numbers up, both for survival and for spring buildup. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:42:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar- now pollen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: >Hi Bill & All, > > They are fed no >white sugar or HFCS. > > Nor are mine. But I manage their stores so they over-winter on good honey. I have problems with honeydew and aster. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:58:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: Is Sucrocide working? I haven't seen much about Sucrocide recently - has anyone had success with it? It's starting to get cool in the NW (Seattle) area so I want to try something that doesn't require a warm hive to get a mite drop. TFL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:59:06 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Just Wondering - Drone Brood Removal In-Reply-To: <200509081429.j88EH5PN019361@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Brown wrote: "As for what to do with the drone brood, I feed it to my chickens." That's a great idea. How do you feed it to the chickens? Don't they damage the comb? Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:02:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glen Glater Subject: honey stix producer, weird bee movement on front of hive Greetings I have 2 questions. 1.) Does anyone have the equipment to produce honey stix in low volume? I need only about 500 honey stix from my honey. Does anyone know anyone who can do this? 2.) I have 2 hives, one Italian and one Carolian. The Italian bees like to cover the front of the hive right over the entrance and move back and forth in what appears to be a rocking motion. The other hive does not do this. They are not moving their feet, it really does look like they're rocking forward and backward. Their heads are always face up, abdomen's down. Any ideas? 3.) We are looking for a way to integrate our honey into a family event. Does anyone have creative ideas other than small jars of honey or honey stix? Thanks. --glen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:50:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: weird bee movement on front of hive (washboarding) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Glen Glater asked about bees "move(ing) back and forth in what appears to be a rocking motion." Search the archives at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l for washboarding and you'll get the whole story Or go there directly at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S2=bee-l&q=washboarding&s=&f=&a=&b= Aaron Morris - thinking there's gold in the thar archives! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 20:02:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Is Sucrocide working? In-Reply-To: <200509081558.j88FmYGT024257@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Milt: On another bee group a few weeks back a couple of people mentioned hearing at EAS that the folks at Cornell found it to be not all that effective. Now mind you what I just wrote is simply me repeating hearsay. I did try sucrocide this last spring/early summer on some hives that overwintered. There were drone cells on the frames that had numerous mites. I did three treatments about 10 days or so apart using the recommended mix from the bottle and applied it after calibrating my sprayer. I thought it seemed to work. Checking back later I only saw an occasional mite in the drone brood. Complacency set in I guess. I was planning on treating again this fall, but late this summer I started to see deformed wings, phoretic mites and parasitic mite syndrome. As with you, I’d sure like to hear from others on their experience with it. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 22:00:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Winter Flying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill & All, My, albeit, best anecdotal observation is that the best survivors in my apiaries fly the least in the winter, wait until more favorable weather = in very early spring to fly, and are the most conservative. They are fed no white sugar or HFCS. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 22:02:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re; [BEE-L] Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob & All, Could you please tell me what a researcher would do to even out the = varroa load in a test such as this one with out using OA or something that = would contaminate the wax or neurologically damage bees and queens? I thought this was a three season test which was started 2002 and went = until 2004? that's 2002, a winter, 2003, a winter, and then 2004, with some = data in 2005 also. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 13:08:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Winter Flying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain My casual observation is that the better survivors fly less in the winter when the weather is marginal. They will fly well and cleanse well when there is less chance from getting chilled and grounded. It's always a pleasure to see them flying on a sunny, mild day with little wind that could chill them. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 08:11:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: Is Sucrocide working? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I used sucrocide once, last year. You can have the rest of my bottle of = concentrate. Walter Weller -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:30:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Winter Flying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/09/05 11:58:57 GMT Daylight Time, alaskabeekeeper@HOTMAIL.COM writes: <> Very much so. I used to have hybrids which were quite unsuited to the climate; they wintered in very large clusters, flew a lot in winter, ate a great deal of winter stores, and eventually died out because the queens wouldn't mate in less than ideal conditions. My present bees winter in very small clusters, eat very little overwinter, and hardly fly even on mild winter days. A few do come out, so they can go if they're desperate, unless it's really cold, but casual observation suggests that they probably need to go significantly less often than the other strain. I don't suppose anyone's done any research on the toilet habits of different races of bee! Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 14:45:28 +0100 Reply-To: j.a.p.earle@qub.ac.uk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Philip Earle Organization: Queens University Belfast Subject: Re: Is Sucrocide working? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That seems to sum it up, what do you use now Walter? Phil > > I used sucrocide once, last year. You can have the rest of my bottle of > concentrate. > > Walter Weller -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:00:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Horses for Courses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We often hear people touting one strain or race over all others and wonder .I suppose we should discuss the fact that no one honey bee strain will suit everyone. The simple fact is that there are many different places, purposes, methods, and beekeepers. Each combination has different goals and challenges. Some want to keep bees for a hobby, usually on a small plot of land and need calm, tolerant bees, and productivity is sometimes not an issue. Others may move bees many times a year, pollinate, and then also produce honey. Some want to tinker with their bees and try to create a new method or device -- or philosophy. Some are in the North, and others are in the South. Some are both. Some have many helpers, machines, experience and an education. Others have none of these. All their needs are different. Each has different expectations of their bees, and limits to what they are willing or able to do. I suppose it would not be hard to write 2000 words on the topic, but I have little time today. Discuss. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:05:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Winter broodless periods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About twenty or twenty five years ago some work was done in Great Britain showing that colonies had brood intermittently throughout the winter and they were apparently using it as a "moisture sink" during periods when, for what ever reason, ventilation was inadequate. As I recall, in effect, they would store excess moisture in brood, which has a high moisture content, until they could dispose of it by other means. I think the papers were included in a booklet put out by either BIBBA or IBRA. I know I have a copy here "somewhere", the problem is finding the right "somewhere". The one I can find, Pedigree Bee Breeding in Western Europe, BIBBA 1981, also touches on the subject in an article by Moebus entitled, Winter Brood and the Winter Cluster. I'll keep looking for "somewhere" as time allows. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 08:32:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Winter Flying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar & All, > the better survivors fly less in the winter when the weather is marginal > I see you agree with me, some people do not see it this way. Up here where winters are long, snow can be on the ground six months out of the year, and temperatures that drop to -25 to -35 degrees F. for weeks at a time it is easy to weed out those that do fly and brood to early. They are simply to weak come first inspection or die out well before this. The very best of the survivors perform as Brother Adam describes below for the best part. Conservation of energy and stores are an essential characteristics and traits for me to breed a better bee for Alaskan conditions. Brother Adam sees these as hereditary so my goals should be within reach because I have seen these in the best and strongest survivors. Brother Adam on the link below writes about wintering and spring development; http://www.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/books/FrAdam/breeding/partII85en.html#p4 Quote " 5. Hardiness and Ability to Winter Hardiness and the ability to winter well are linked to a number of other characteristics. Clearly any bee that quickly gets chilled when collecting water or pollen on sunny but cool spring days cannot be described as hardy. On the other hand, resistance to extremely low temperatures is less important. Good wintering is largely determined by an ability to survive over long periods on inferior stores without a cleansing flight and the reaction of a colony to sudden changes in temperature or to disturbances in general. The Carnica, for example, is inclined to fly on a bright day and a rise of temperature, when our own strain, in identical conditions, will remain completely inactive. Indeed our colonies appear as if dead from the beginning of November to the end of February, or until conditions for a satisfactory cleansing flight have arrived in spring. Any activity in inclement weather brings about a loss of energy in bees to no good purpose whatever, as confirmed in all such instances by practical experience. 6. Spring Development The next important matter is spring development. I hardly need to emphasise that the way in which bees develop in the spring, whether early or late, depends on a hereditary factor. In my experience which, of course, relates to the conditions prevailing in the south-west of the British Isles, the build-up in spring must occur without any stimulative feeding; it must not start before the weather conditions are favourable; once it has begun it must proceed uninterruptedly despite changes in the weather. The Anatolian bee, even when crossed with other strains, is ideal in this matter. Early breeders expend their stamina by flights in unfavourable weather and waste their energy in endeavours which bring no advantage and often, in fact, are positively harmful. It is well known that early breeders are more susceptible to Nosema than those which start breeding later. The latter nearly always overhaul the early breeders, and moreover at the right point of time, as they have not used up their vitality uselessly and inopportunely. The dwindling of colonies, which is constantly being reported on all sides, is very often the result of a premature spring build-up. What the modern beekeeper requires is a bee which needs no stimulative feeding but one which builds up in the spring spontaneously, on its own initiative. In this way he is spared all the dangers, the expense and the labour involved in an artificial development. Equally spontaneous must be the ability to maintain a correspondingly high degree of breeding until the end of the summer which guarantees a maximum colony strength of young bees for wintering and spring build-up." Unqoute . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:26:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Winter Flying In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >...and temperatures that drop to -25 to -35 degrees F. for weeks at a time... While temperatures do drop that low here in the south-central region of Alaska, generally speaking it is usually much warmer than that most of the time. Off the top of my head I'd say our temperatures are roughly between 10º F and 30º F. At times the temperatures go above freezing for several days in a row. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:53:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Winter Flying In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The temperatures mentioned in my last email were WINTER time temperatures. I hope I didn’t give the impression they were yearly averages! Here’s some climate information in the Anchorage area of Alaska: http://www.anchorage.net/684.cfm Temperature isn’t such a big deal in overwintering bees here in my opinion. I think the biggest hurdle is simply the length of our winter. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 15:15:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Winter Flying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No quotes since the whole passage is relevant and I don't want this binned! Basically what Brother Adam was looking for is the same as what I lok for; there is no point in a bee which has to waste energy on winter flight, so they need to be able to go long periods without a poo. At the same time, I want bees which will winter economically without needing to be fed, and build up well in spring, to reach maximum strength by early June. The big diffeence, of course, is that Brother Adam thought the native British bee was extinct, and looked for useful stock elsewhere, whoich could be c ombined into the perfect hybrid. I regard this as a fundamental strategic error, and find what I want in the native bee! Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 16:01:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Winter Flying In-Reply-To: <429b388da5659ab0095f2da9de7aa06f@gci.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4C37745B > I think the biggest hurdle is simply the length of our winter. Same as here in Vermont. It's not the cold, but the length of time without a cleansing flight. One reason I wrap. Helps with early flights on days when unwrapped colonies won't fly. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/91 - Release Date: 9/6/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 22:57:21 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Breeding strategy In-Reply-To: <20a.8f49044.30533934@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >The big diffeence, of course, is that Brother Adam thought the native >British bee was extinct, Really, it was probably right and the current dark bee is an hybrid whose gene(s) of resistance to the acarine desease is that (are those) of the Mediterranean bee. The Nature strategy makes it possible "resistant" to survive and it kills all the "sensitive ones". In this case, the current dark bee is no more the native North-European bee. >and looked for useful stock elsewhere, which could be combined >into the perfect hybrid. I regard this as a fundamental strategic >error, and find what I want in the native bee! In French we say "La plus belle fille du monde ne peut donner que ce qu'elle a!" (The most beautiful girl in the world can give only what she has!). And the glaciation process was very unjust with respect to the European honeybee. Year after year, it killed colonies only according to their position : too much in North, it's death! And at the end (about -30000) the very small whole population of bees (and the human) were confined in a very small area in the French Basque Country, between the Pyrenees ices and the frozen, without trees, North plains. No more possibility of crossing with other populations => Number of interesting qualities were lost of this manner (unjust killing and no more crossing). The dark bee has single qualities that other lines of bees don't have, but it misses certain qualities which one can find elsewhere. => explanation of the Brother Adam strategy. Regards Jean-Marie Van Dyck -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 16:58:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Broodless period MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >That there is brood in January is due, in part, to keeping the numbers up, both for survival and for spring buildup. Actually has little to do with keeping numbers up but rather the longer days. When we first took bees into California for almond pollination we heard we had to feed pollen patties. Learned later our Midwest bees had plenty of stored pollen which they preferred over the patties (at that time of year) but another story. Anyway in conversation with other commercial beekeepers and pollen patty sellers etc. we found out feeding patties or trying to get the bees to brood up before the equinox will not happen. Being from Missouri (show me state) I had to prove for myself. Tests were ran. Was true! Around the 23/24 of December it was like a switch had been turned in the hive and things started happening! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 17:19:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Horses for Courses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >We often hear people touting one strain or race over all others and wonder >Discuss. I believe the Italian bee is the best honey producer the world has ever seen! Also the most likely commercial race to send me to the truck for a bee suit! Carnies can be swarmy. Caucs love to work with propolis! The sculptures are amazing to admire! My friend Horace Bell told me about the China beekeeping tour he went on. He said the Chinese had queens they used for different crops. They would requeen with a certain strain or race before a certain flow with a queen which produced bees that gathered the most honey (based on past experience). I never had heard of the above before? Do beekeepers on BEE-L use the practice? Of course only the top honey producers and packing operations were shown. No tours of extracting honey in tents with dirt floors was shown on the tour! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 18:31:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Breeding strategy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/09/05 22:49:54 GMT Daylight Time, jean-marie.vandyck@FUNDP.AC.BE writes: <> There's undoubtedly a degree of hybridisation there, but we still have bees which are morphologically identical to specimens collected before 1850 (I believe the first recorded importation of Italians was in 1859), and extremely similar to remains found in archaeological dig in York (dating to about 1000 AD) and Oslo (about 1200 AD) (Ruttner, Milner & Dews, The Dark European Honeybee, BIBBA, 1990). I think it's reasonable to conclude that some strains of the native bee survived. Additionally, Beowulf Cooper reports that many beekeepers with native strains did not lose their bees to Isle of Wight Disease. What seems to have happened is that the disease was most serious in the South-East, where the local stocks were very hybridised, as it's probably the most suitable part of the UK for Italians. Work done there was then extrapolated, wrongly, to the rest of the country, with the result that nobody actually looked at what had happened in those parts of the country where native stocks were strongest until many years later. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 16:25:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Winter Flying & Native Stock In-Reply-To: <20a.8f49044.30533934@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert Brenchley wrote: Brother Adam thought the native British bee was extinct, and looked for useful stock elsewhere, whoich could be c ombined into the perfect hybrid. I regard this as a fundamental strategic error, and find what I want in the native bee! Robert, Where do you live? If you live in the New World, there ain't no native bee. Oh yeah, I'm saying this while grinning. This isn't meant to be a put-down. I agree that we need to preserve native stocks because of what they represent in the world's gene pool. Mike Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery, Alabama ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 22:21:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Winter Flying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Mike: You mentioned wrapping and cleansing flights. It seems there may be two sides to the story; I’ve heard both of them from the university bee folks. One side says bees will consume more stores if they are unwrapped because they need to generate heat for warmth. Marion Ellis wrote that in his ‘Bee Tidings’ newsletter. “Winter wraps pay for themselves every year in reduced honey consumption.” http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tidings/btid2001/btdapr01.htm#Article3 Interestingly, it comes from the April 2001 issue. Isn’t April a little late to be concerned about wrapping hives? Both Mark Winston and Dewey Caron, though, told me awhile back that since bees are more active when wrapped, wrapped hives will consume more stores. So, who’s right? Maybe they don’t fly when unwrapped because they don’t have a need to and maybe they are flying when wrapped because they need to. Or then again, maybe not..... Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:25:35 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Roberts Subject: Killing Off Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings This is something I don't like to talk about, as I have spent all my active beekeeping life trying to preserve and build up hives. I've been asked to dispose of some of a friend's hives. He isn't able to look after them any more. They are in semi-surburbia and I can't retrieve them and relocate them live. I don't want to cause problems with the neighbours, as it is nearly spring here and close to swarming time. I'm planning to humanely kill the bees and try to keep the frames and honey, to build up hives in another location. Can anyone please advise how I can do this humainly and so the combs and honey aren't contaminated. This is something I really don't want to do, but see no way out of it. Thanks very much in advance Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 04:29:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Winter Flying & Native Stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/09/05 08:09:31 GMT Daylight Time, mws1112004@YAHOO.COM writes: <> Birmingham, UK. Sorry, I used to have my location in my sig, but I lost it when I got the new AOL version. I'll put it back. Maintaining native stocks is definitely one of my interests; I think it would be extremely difficult to beat a few millennia of natural selection! Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 06:01:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Killing Off Hives In-Reply-To: <1895.202.63.60.157.1126329935.squirrel@mail.aanet.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Roberts wrote: > I've been > asked to dispose of some of a friend's hives. They > are in semi-surburbia and I > can't retrieve them and > relocate them live. > > Can anyone please advise how I can do this humainly > and so the combs and > honey aren't contaminated. > > This is something I really don't want to do, but see > no way out of it. > Bob, You must be in the southern hemisphere. You can move the full hives of bees. Place moving screens on the tops and screened bottom boards on the bottoms of the hives. Then place robbing screens on the entrances and make sure that any holes in the complete hives are closed. Just needs a couple of strong backs then to load the hives on a truck and move them. It's easier on you and the bees if you move them at night. Pretty sure you can move the entire hive without too much trouble. Migratory beekeepers do it all the time. Just make sure that the hives have plenty of ventilation (screened bottoms and tops)/. Mike Located in southern Alabama, USA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:15:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: excessive quotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I approved two posts this morning to make further my point of excessive = quotes. Ther first post was written: =20 In a message dated 10/09/05 08:09:31 GMT Daylight Time, = mws1112004@YAHOO.COM writes: <> =20 It could have been written: Robert asked where am I located? =20 The second post was written: =20 --- Bob Roberts wrote: > I've been > asked to dispose of some of a friend's hives. They=20 > are in semi-surburbia and I > can't retrieve them and > relocate them live.=20 > > Can anyone please advise how I can do this humainly > and so the combs and > honey aren't contaminated. > > This is something I really don't want to do, but see > no way out of it. > It could have been written: Bob Roberts about humainly disposing of bees. =20 This is not a hard concept! The University demands conserving storage = resources. In these two posts I can realize a 90% reduction in quoted = material! It adds up. Please keep this in consideration in = submissions. =20 If you must quote previous postings, INCLUDE ONLY WHAT IS NECESSARY TO = MAKE YOUR POINT. =20 Aaron Morris BEE-L Owner/Editor/Moderator/Janitor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:49:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Another tarnished "silver bullet" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sucrocide may not be the "cure all" that the Dadant's PR crew would have you believe but don't "throw out the baby with the bath water". IMHO it will prove invaluable in certain scenarios. A big one is the package and queen industry. If I were to receive, ship or sell packages I would want them at least hosed down with Sucrocide, not to mention using it in the inclosed feed cans and / or the queen cage candy. Prior to the "mite wars" the use of package bees was one of the biggest factors in controlling the spread AFB but quickly became one of the worse means of spreading mites. If Sucrocide can significantly "de-Varroa" the package industry it could have a major impact on the spread of resistant and "super fecundity" mites on a national level. The long distant movement of hives, i.e. commercial migratories, might also benefit from loads being hosed down with Sucrocide while in transit. Wetting down loads to avoid over heating is already a common practice under certain circumstances. The disruption of brood production and heavy "bearding" in transit could both be turned to advantage in this scenario. I have long held that the real long term solution to this mite problem is to compartmentalize it. Preventing the spread of various "superior mite strains" by creating, both cost and time, "effective" bottle necks will be a major factor in bringing the Varroa problem "to heel". They are never going to go away, like AFB, Varroa is an artifact of human behavior and here to stay, it is a beekeeper problem not a bee problem. Instead of the tail wagging the dog, the dog needs to learn to control its own tail. Thinking, "If all you've got are lemons, make lemonade", sorry Aaron I couldn't resist it. The devil made me do it, but at least he used two "a's" not two "r's", in case you didn't notice. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:52:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Equalizing research colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>what a researcher would do to even out the varroa load in a test<<<< Since no one else has picked up on the thread, this "fool will rush in". To my knowledge the simplest and most effective way to get "even" populations of "whatever" in controlled research hives is to start with a "super package" in the same way many queen producers generate mating "nucs". You create a single queenless unit, i.e. a big screened box sans comb, composed of adult bees shook from some number of different hives, spray them down with sugar water, let them sit for a day or so in a cool dark spot "to equilibrate", i.e. commingle and share things, and then stock some number of hives with the "mixed" bees. Normally this would be done on new equipment, or at least frames, and all hives would normally be requeened with a "sister" queen group(s) to control for genetic differences. For the most part, I'm sure I am "preaching to the choir" but on the offhand chance "inquiring minds really needed to know", this "venerable font of useless information" will state the obvious. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:39:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Killing Off Hives In-Reply-To: <1895.202.63.60.157.1126329935.squirrel@mail.aanet.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob: Concern about humanly killing bees and contaminated comb Response: It sounds like you can't move the hives, but you didn't elaborate. I sense, that if you poisoned the bees, you're going to end up moving the hives anyway. Here are two suggestions on how I moved hives. My first way was on a friend's hives. I arrived at his place just before sunrise, just before the bees were flying. I smoked the hive heavily, then pulled off the top super/brood box and set it in an inverted, telescoping cover. I added a telescoping cover over the top of this box and I set it in the back of my van. I did the same with the second box from the top, the third box from the top and finally the bottom brood box. Each box sat separately in my van, sitting in a telescoping cover, and covered with a telescoping cover. We repeated this procedure with three hives, keeping the boxes straight by marking each box with a number and a letter (1-A, 1-B, 2-A, 2-B, etc.) so we could put them back together the same way. We drove out the the new place, about a half hour away. Each box was smoked a little before the lids were removed and reassembled in the new location. We had three hives of some really disoriented bees, but upon our return in a week, no one could tell. Very likely we had some drifting, but all three seemed to be functioning quite well. My second method was on my own bees. Late in the afternoon, I moved the hive to a new location about ten feet from the original location. I moved each box separately, carrying it over by hand. In the original location, I placed a single brood box with the bottom securely stapled to the brood box. Going back to the original hive, I sorted through the frames of brood and filled the new single brood box with frames of only brood, no honey. I made sure the queen was on one of these frames. After ten frames filled the single brood box, I topped it with screen top (8-mesh wire bound with wood), and used duct tape to secure it (and plug leaky cracks around the edge). Then I topped it with a normal, telescoping cover. Going back the original hive in the new location, I took frames of bees and shook them in front of the new single in the original location, then returned the frames to the old hive boxes. There were some frames of brood and the bees are reluctant to leave brood frames, hence the shaking. As darkness descended, it was a mad house of bees flying around, some robbing activity, but by dark, the original hive bodies were mostly empty of bees, heavy with honey and some brood, and the bees jam-packed into the new single. By morning, after a relatively cool night, all the bees were inside the new single. I stuffed the opening with a paper towel, removed the cover to keep them from overheating, and moved the whole works to a new location. At the new location, I pulled out the paper towel and gave the bees about six hours to reorient themselves before returning to the beeyard, removing the screen and adding the other boxes of brood and honey supers. They were a little testy, but most of the bees were flying which made the process fairly simple. Both of these methods of moving bees got me away from the back-breaking work of handling heavy hives. You need no special equipment, though a wheel barrow/garden cart helps if the distance to the truck is lengthy. I've tried moving entire hives requiring hand carts, appliance dollies, straps, front end loaders, rope and sixteen able-bodied young men. And I've had the large hives "slip" just a little allowing angry bees to escape. IMHO, I like my way better. You don't have to move the whole hive in its entirity. Of course, you can always kill the bees, but you'll need to buy replacement packages. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 22:50:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Equalizing research colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rip said: To my knowledge the simplest and most effective way to get "even" populations of "whatever" in controlled research hives is to start with a "super package" My method of choice. I would take the packages from hives with a known varroa load and mix. There is no perfect method but the above is the best for the least amount of trouble. Others take a varroa free package and add the varroa in frames of brood which have about the same amount of varroa load. (varroa in cells per area of brood). There is no way to say OA cleared all the hives of varroa making all hives equal especially *if* all hives had sealed brood>. The chalkbrood problem (depending on level) compromised the test as would foulbrood or any other disease problem. If the test did show small cell superior to large cell then a repeat test should show similar results. I do not call the Norway tests not valid but only point out what the research community would say. Very primitive. I have ran many many similar tests on hives. I have published none as I know what researchers think of primitive tests. I write for both Bee Culture & the American Bee Journal and I speak from experience of getting articles published. Both editors have bent the long established rules of peer review. I agree with their decision. My friend Jim Fischer will no doubt post why all articles like the Norway article need peer review. I welcome his post as will show the other side of the coin! Although long time friends our opinions differ on certain subjects! Both Dee Lusby's Bee Culture articles had to be peer reviewed before publication. To tell a peer reviewed article you will see others names beside the authors. I would rather see an article like the Norway article as written. Most researchers (in my opinion) would have left the article intact under peer review but added in the article the things I have pointed out (perhaps more or perhaps less). I would like to publish a few of my own primitive test results but know I would rather wait to provide testing the research community would not find fault with. I commend both Kim Flottum & Joe Graham for running articles not peer *butchered * (has happened) for their readers! What I mean is I do not mind the researchers comments but object to the researcher rewriting the article to reflect their views. I believe I am on friendly enough terms with Dee Lusby to say she was not pleased with her peer review for the Bee Culture articles (she has told me and others.) Back then if you were not a researcher and only beekeepers like Dee & I articles like hers and the Norway article would need peer review to be published. Glad we have moved forward! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:31:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Another tarnished "silver bullet" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >will prove invaluable in certain scenarios. Has been valuable in reducing varroa loads in hives before the end of the honey flow. > If I were to receive, ship or sell packages I would want them at least hosed down with Sucrocide, Has been done and has worked from what we can tell. >not to mention using it in the inclosed feed cans and / or the queen cage candy. I have never heard of its use in this manor and not sure if would work? I was part of the original Dadant testing and the above was never talked about. > quickly became one of the worse means of spreading mites. Package bees spread mites faster than any other method! In fact the first varroa were found in a huge package shipment! These packages were not destroyed but distributed to beekeepers which always amazed me! Migratory beekeepers were quickly blammed by package shippers. Our reps are not the best and we have got broad shoulders so we took the heat! >If Sucrocide can significantly "de-Varroa" the package industry Good advice but the answer will be this from the package industry. "Why spend the time and money". We are selling all the package bees we can produce! Refuse to buy a package without sucrocide treatment and the industry will take notice. Of course package bees are at record price levels now. The added treatment would add around ten bucks per packaage (guess). Maybe the package receiver needs to do the treatment? Not hard to do! Rip makes an excellent point. My article on the Australian package bees (Oct. 2005 ABJ) shows that a varroa free package can survive the first year easily even when surrounded by hives with heavy varroa loads. All Australian package bees remain untreated as I write this post! Leaving most of post to provide understanding of a difference of opinion: > Preventing the spread of various "superior mite strains" by creating, both cost and time, "effective" bottle necks will be a major factor in bringing the Varroa problem "to heel". They are never going to go away, like AFB, Varroa is an artifact of human behavior and here to stay, it is a beekeeper problem not a bee problem. The above is the researcher position. Very careful choice of words like "effective bottle necks". "Beekeeper problem and not a bee problem." My idea to place sugar syrup drums of AFB in the narrow straits of Panama was an effective bottle neck but rejected and now we have to deal with AHB. No quarantine or burning of hives with mites has ever worked! I appreciate the researcher position but researchers are a smaller minority than even commercial beekeepers. Almond growers and others needing pollination rule the USDA. Many researchers , bee inspectors and USDA officials have tried to stop the flow of hives on local levels. They have told us you are not leaving this state! Then the local official gets a call from his boss and we wave "bye bye". Never fails to put a grin on the migratory beekeepers face! Beekeeping problems have to be solved without the disruption of the U.S. pollination. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 08:13:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Horses for Courses In-Reply-To: <002c01c5b546$e701cc00$46dffed8@Nemo> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-60311E2C > We often hear people touting one strain or race over all others and wonder >.I suppose we should discuss the fact that no one honey bee strain will suit >everyone. > Discuss. Which is exactly what the "old timers" have been telling us forever. Charles Mraz from Vermont, and Karl Showler from England both told me the same thing years ago. The best bees will reared from your best colonies in your area. For too many years, I told myself that I didn't have the time, or expertise to raise my own bees and queens. So, I bought bees and queens from the south. Let the bees and queens be raised by the professionals...right? Well, after my chalkbrood problems got worse and worse, and failing queens became all too common, I decided to try raising my own. Surprise, surprise! The old timers were correct. Now, I can't hardly find any chalk, and I'm not having to requeen the same colonies over and over. My average honey crop has risen from around 70 lbs, to over 100. To quote my inspector, who can't say enough good things..."the brood is stick to stick, with solid patterns." So, raise your own from your best, to fit your needs, and the way you keep your bees. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/91 - Release Date: 9/6/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 09:20:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Another tarnished "silver bullet" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/09/05 13:50:40 GMT Daylight Time, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: like AFB, Varroa is an artifact of human behavior and here to stay, it is a beekeeper problem not a bee problem. I don't think this really reflects the situation. AFB can reasonably be described asa beekeeper problem since beeks are clearly the major factor in infecting hives, though doubtless not the only one. So the New Zealanders have found careful hygeine by the beekeeper can make all the difference in controlling it. But while the initial spread of Varroa was caused by beekeepers, and could be described as a 'beekeeper problem', now it's here it spreads without beekeeper involvement. I think it's now become a bee problem. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 09:59:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dann Purvis II Subject: Re: Another tarnished "silver bullet" In-Reply-To: <002b01c5b689$a7232400$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Great reply, Bob. We used powdered sugar on our packages this spring and so far have seen very low mite load on those particular bees (mating nucs). Have thought, maybe a package dunking in Sucricide coupled with a powdering would virtually eliminate all mites from packages. It might not even be necessary to do both. Sugar would probably be best to do first then Sucricide. I have a prototype sugar powdering chamber that I am planning on experimenting with next year. It has to be simple, easy, cost effective, and not destructive. Sugar/Sucricide treated" packages coupled with conducive mite genetics, survivor bee genetics (yes, you can select for survival-think Darwin) and clean comb IS a winning combination. Dann > Beekeeping problems have to be solved without the disruption of the U.S. > pollination. > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 08:29:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike & Janet Brisson Subject: Re: Another tarnished "silver bullet" and powder sugar duster MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "I have a prototype sugar powdering chamber" My neighbor just brought the 'duster' by, this might be the easy answer. It has a wire coil that will scrape the sugar though the screen. Its called the Powder Mill Model 76900 Dust Applicator by PlantMates, Inc. It has a good size hopper and Shane said he used much less powdered sugar. He also said he took out one frame and inserted the rather wide nozzle. We are going to try it next Tuesday. He said the store was Tractor Supply Store, a franchise (Northern California), for under $13.00. Janet . -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 09:16:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Equalizing research colonies In-Reply-To: <002501c5b683$e626ca40$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob was writing in a message that he thought there was no way to say OA cleared all the hives of varroa making all hives equal especially *if* all hives had sealed brood. I would like to comment back Bob that the OA treatment was done during a brood less period with the purpose of 'equalizing' the mite load and not with the intent of eliminating the mite load. as mites would be essential for conducting a mite test. Bob mentioned that chalkbrood problem (depending on level) compromised the test. This would not be the case because it was mentioned that "both groups were affected by chalkbrood". Likewise, weather conditions for example could not compromise the test because it would affect both groups. Bob calling the Norway tests,,, "Very primitive". I would respond that the pundits have always called for for the test to be done with large and small cell colonies in the same apiary under equal conditions. It seems that when another bit of evidence is produced, the pundits move the bar a bit higher. JOe ______________________________________________________ Yahoo! for Good Watch the Hurricane Katrina Shelter From The Storm concert http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/shelter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:51:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: queen introduction. In-Reply-To: <20050911161638.91770.qmail@web34315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed i went out to inspect my hives and one was infested with wax moths and small hive beetles. i shook the bees off the frames as i removed them one by one. they were all infested. i never thought i would find the queen - i rarely do. finally i sat there looking at a 1000 bees - mostly robbers, thinking what to do now, when suddenly there she was. i ripped off my glove and carefully picked her up and put her into a jar with about 15 fellow workers. what do i do now. how long can i keep her in the jar, how can i feed her for a few days. i am guessing now: put together a queenless nuc and introduce her after 2-3 days should i clip her wings while i have her / attempt to mark her? this late in the season what is the point? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:16:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Equalizing research colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe & All, > the OA treatment was done during a brood less period with the purpose of 'equalizing' the mite load and not with the intent of eliminating the mite load. as mites would be essential for conducting a mite test. I believe the OA did eleminate the varroa load to a point the test proved nothing. What was the varroa load in each hive as the test started? Bob said: >chalkbrood problem compromised the test. Joe said: This would not be the case because it was mentioned that "both groups were affected by chalkbrood". Maybe not to you but to a competent researcher the test was compromised. Joe said: Likewise, weather conditions for example could not compromise the test because it would affect both groups. Weather yes! disease no! Chalkbrood is a serious problem when in hives during testing. results can be all over the place. I removed some chalkbrood queens for the same reason earlier this year in tests I was running for a commercial beekeeper. I said we would try again next spring to run the tests with a different queen line. Joe the Norway tests would be considered primative by research standards no matter what the testing was trying to prove! Small cell is not the issue here but rather methods used! My opinion is the OA treatment killed the varroa which made both groups have low (almost none) varroa counts during the 2004 season. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 16:55:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: The bacterium behind AFB? In-Reply-To: <20050904154613.18141.qmail@web34314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What's the bacterium behind AFB? I thought there was a reclassification of the bacterium behind AFB, 'Paenibacillus larvae', or (P. larvae) is the agent behind American foulbrood (AFB). But some are stating that AFB is caused by the spore-forming bacterium 'Bacillus larvae', or (B. larvae) Which is it? Thanks! Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:20:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Equalizing research colonies In-Reply-To: <003c01c5b71e$7e9ac020$19bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: Bob asks "What was the varroa load in each hive as > the test started?" The fact is that they were treated all the same during a broodless period with OA. I ask in return, Bob you do tests with your varroa resistant queen breeding,,, how do you determine the exact load in each colony? If the attempt here is to place doubt the study, then your own queen breeding program is in doubt if you cannot produce this documentation. > Small > cell is not the issue > here but rather methods used! Both large and small groups were tested under the same methodry. Under these testing methods that were used in the study, the small group on average our performed the large group. The evidence is there in the study, that it isn't to your liking is your problem. It it obvious that this was a 'real world' test under conditions that naturally exist in many bee yards. I don;t know how you could attempt to have a more level, real world playing field than that. I myself do not want bees that survive in a scientific laboratory,,, I want bees that survive in the beeyard. Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:43:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: queen introduction. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >this late in the season what is the point? Perhaps you have answered your own question. If a hobby beekeeper and she is a valuable queen to you then perhaps a rescue might be attempted. Perhaps a fellow beekeeper is looking for a queen. On the other hand the hive was failing. Her fault should be considered a possibility. Keeping genetics around which can not survive is always in question in my opinion. I know what I would do. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 20:54:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: queen introduction. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > what do i do now. Hive tool test. Press your hive tool on the queen and see which gives = first. =20 Aaron Morris - thinking the 2005 season's over. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 21:28:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Larry Krengel Subject: grape pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently had a call from a person who is going to establish a vineyard. She wants me to provide her with bees to pollinate her grapes. Its an excellent offer. She is willing to pay for the bees and equipment. I get the honey in exchange for tending the hives. I have never heard of a demand for bees to work grapes. Has anyone had experience in doing this? Do bees successfully pollinate grapes? I wonder if grapes are self-pollinating. Even if the grapes are not a good nectar source, the area in which she is located would likely produce an excellent honey crop. I would appreciate the location for a bee yard, but don't want to mislead her about the usefulness of the bees to her grapes. Any thoughts are appreciated. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:51:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: Re: queen introduction. In-Reply-To: <000b01c5b732$f28cf8e0$20bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed On the other hand the hive was failing. Her fault should be considered a possibility. she may in fact be worth saving..... i had just purchased 2queens and made up their nucs by splitting a strong hive into 3 parts. this weakened the first enough that within 5 days it was destroyed by the shb. the 2 nucs have been limping along. the new queens had made nice brood pattern and were starting to build up. she is a sue cobey granddaughter. so, a little advise please. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:17:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Equalizing research colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe & All, . If you want the researchers to put* merit in your testing* you have to follow their rules. They have to be able to go out and do the same experiment and get similar results. In the case of the Norway experiment they would need to use OA to clear the hives of varroa. have no way of knowing if any varroa are in the hives. toss in chalkbrood and then get a similar varroa drop . Researchers read but usually do not post on internet lists . Those reading see my point . you have to play by their rules to get their respect. Many beekeepers will follow any pied piper! Most scientific journals would not have ran the Norway article without peer review. Period! Like I said before I side with Joe & Kim in choosing to run articles like the Norway article for all to read and make up their own minds as to the methods used. I personally enjoy reading about the Lusby's success and Dr. Pedro's FGMO success. I want to hear about all beekeepers success with bees. All methods no matter how unusual they seem! I do find it interesting when they had success and I had a failure but maybe I did something different such as add varroa pressure and stress. > Bob you do tests with your varroa resistant queen breeding,,, how do you determine the exact load in each colony? I have used many methods but never clearing the hive with a chemical and not adding varroa.(like the Norway article). >If the attempt here is to place doubt the study, then your own queen breeding program is in doubt if you cannot produce this documentation. I have never published my exact results although publishers have asked! I am too smart to get raked over the coals by researchers! I do not sell varroa tolerant queens! I have not got an agenda! I do not care if beekeepers follow my lead. My hives are boiling with bees this fall with low varroa counts. I am happy and satisfied with my methods! I assume you are happy with small cell. I could never justify the cost and labor. At todays honey prices would take years to recoup the cost. >The evidence is there in the study, that it isn't to your liking is your problem. One has to remember I ran experiments with small cell and was not impressed. My tests on FGMO were a total failure. I had high hopes for both but " it is what it is" >It it obvious that this was a 'real world' test under conditions that naturally exist in many bee yards. Maybe in your bee yards but I have found better ways to treat than OA, bees which tolerate varroa without treatment and small cell and see no chalkbrood in my bees! You have an agenda to prove to the world that a cell size 2 mm smaller than I use is the answer to the worlds beekeeping problems. Sorry I am not buying! Hope we can agree to disagree! Time to move on. We both have posted our positions on the subject. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:06:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I seem to remember that a couple of years or so ago, there was a study “discussed” on the now defunct Yahoo Biological Beekeeping group. The finding of that study, as I remember, was that small cell did not hold up to the claims being made by the small cell folks. Of course nearly all the “discussion” on bio-bee was critical of the study, claiming it was flawed. Now one comes out in favor of small cell and that seems to be “proof” that it is working. I haven’t read the article in ‘Bee Culture’ yet as the magazine hasn’t arrived here yet. While a study may be “proof” that small cell is working, all I can say is that in my case, bees that I had on small cell comb for well over a year became badly infested with mites. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 01:29:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Equalizing research colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, The most famous comparison of small cell to large cell and the study quoted in the book "Mites of the Honey Bee" ( chapter 14 pg.200) was done by H. Ramon,O. Van Laere and M. Ifantidis. The entire study can be found on page 521thru 529 in the book "Asian Apiculture" edited by L. Conner, Rinderer, Sylvester & Wongsiri. Possibly off the net. The study is titled "Size of comb cell & reproduction of Varroa Jacobsoni" After the study was released (1992) most researchers saw little future in the hypothesis of small cell for varroa control. The study had as much attention to detail as any study on bees ever done. The study ran two years. The conclusions of the study were startling to all of us beekeeping nerds. Conclusions: 1. Larger cells have an influence on the arresting movement of varroa in worker brood. 2.Bee larva in normal size worker brood (800 cells /dm) were infested about 2 hours earlier than enlarged cell size ( 640 cells /dm). "the number of invading varroa is seriously reduced in the 640 cells dm cell size" I realize only beekeeping nerds like myself have read "Asian Apiculture" (let alone own the book) but the book is for sale in many bee supply houses and if not wanting to purchase the book you can pick up and look at pages 521-529 which is what I first did at Mid-Con bee supply years ago. The book first sold for around eighty dollars (which seemed rather pricey at the time )but copies today run around twenty five dollars from Dr. Conner directly. An interesting read for the beekeeping nerd but a boring read for most beekeepers! The book is taken from the first International Conference on the Asian Honey Bees and Bee Mites in Bangkok, Thailand in Feb. of 1992 if searching the net for the research paper. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:45:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: grape pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry Krengel asked: Do bees successfully pollinate grapes? No, grapes are self-fertile. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:56:37 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: The bacterium behind AFB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I thought there was a reclassification of the > bacterium behind AFB, 'Paenibacillus larvae', The latest I have seen is as Joe writes above. I have also seen it written Paenibacillus larvae subsp. larvae in the literature. So not sure which is the "correct" way. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 04:31:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway In-Reply-To: <51ff0b33beec9d0b2a6685d2e25eb6ae@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Dick mentions a small cell study that failed to the claims being made by the small cell folks. This was likely the infamous patchwork small cell study where some scientists inserted small sections of different sized foundation into a colony of bees. This study did not show that small cell failed, but instead shows that 'scientific methodry' can fail. That these scientists attempted to do the study in this 'patchwork' fashion shows a complete lack of understanding for how varroa reproduces in a colony bees as it relates to the cell sizes throughout the colony. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:46:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: The bacterium behind AFB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor Weatherhead wrote: > I have also seen it written > Paenibacillus larvae subsp. larvae in the literature. So not sure which > is > the "correct" way. Paenibacillus larvae subsp. larvae is correct since 1996 (information given at Apimondia). There are also other subspecies, e.g. Paenibacillus larvae pulvifaciens (which does not cause AFB and has been the subject of trials to treat it). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:19:50 -0700 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: grape pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry, as has been said, bees wont help. While there is some evidence that certain verities can get bigger individual grapes from pollination, the bees wont help. The reason I write is to tag on something to the last poster, that when grapes burst, or are chewed open by yellow jackets and such, the bees WILL work the grapes, and as often as not get blamed for causing the damage in the first place. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 09:55:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Using colonies for research In-Reply-To: <003c01c5b71e$7e9ac020$19bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Bob Harrison said: I believe the OA did eliminate the varroa load to a point the test proved nothing. What was the varroa load in each hive as the test started? >From my experiments: I have a bee yard with 48 colonies in Edmonton, Alberta Canada. These colonies were treated with CheckMite in Fall 2003. Efficacy at that time was 95% (+/- 3)of mite kill based on samples of washed bees before and after treatment. I left this yard without any treatment to grow mites "Mite Farm". It has taken two years to bring the mite infestation to 14.6% (+/- 3.8)in August 2005 samples. This time span for mite population development, it should be considered in any strategy for mite control or research plans. Although mite levels are under the thresholds for treatment, I have seen that beekeepers keep bombarding the hives with more chemicals to keep mites under control. Then results and conclusions are mixed!!! Having said that It is imperative to monitor mites' levels before and after treatment to test cause and effect. In addition. If we are testing cell size impacts on the development of mite infestation or population dynamics, mites should be in the hives to test. medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:26:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Winter Flying In-Reply-To: <200509100221.j8A2D4Xt026443@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:21 PM 9/9/2005, Dick Allen wrote: > It seems there may be two sides to the story; I've heard both of them > from the university bee folks. We don't have to propose a 'disagreement among university folks'. We simply have to consider climate. Ok, I've kept bees over a winter in Dewey Caron's apiary -- and what works for that climate is not what works for the plains of eastern Montana, or the high elevation mountains of the western part of the state. Similarly, Winston has a coastal climate - even if he is farther north. Marion has yet another climate in Oklahoma. If your winter weather hits -20 to -40 degree F, and you get high winds -- you are NOT going to want to have the bottoms open with screens, unless you get a deep snow pack. You will want to reduce the front entrance. If you wrap, you do so for two reasons: 1) CUT THE WIND that pulls or flushes heat from the hive -- the wrap reduces the air flow through cracks, knotholes, entrances, tops (remember, most commercial folks don't use telescoping tops - so their hives get a lot of air movement around the tops), and 2) -- WARM THE BEES up during a break in the severe cold as a result of the dead air space and solar absorbance on sunny days. We need that boost in some areas -- its just too cold for the cluster to break and move over to frames with food. Unwrapped hives in our coldest area sometimes starve with food stores still present -- the cluster moves from bottom to top, empties the core area, but never moves sideways. So they starve. Not all of our folks wrap, but they at least close down the entrances and often add some insulation on top, plus pull the hives together so that they shield each other from the wind. What we have learned -- don't pack a bunch of straw, insulation between the wrap and the hive -- we get a thaw in January, then a return of very cold in February (most years). Old time beekeepers used to throw in a lot of straw -- that worked until the thaw - then the water soaked the straw, which then froze into a block of ice, which melted later in the spring, soaking everything. When in Dewey's region, I don't wrap and may even crack the lid -- his climate has an excess moisture problem. In Seattle - no reason to wrap, but they used to use slatted bottom boards to keep the moisture away from the cluster. I've seen water sheeting down the inside of the boxes. I'd guess that bottom screens would work much the same. Haven't tried Oklahoma, but I'll bet they get some cold winter. If the wrap keeps the bees too warm, they'll stay more active and eat more food. But if it gets too cold, a wrap may help reduce thermal loss. E.E. Southwick did the classic studies on this topic, bee colonies that have clustered are very efficient in terms of energy consumption at cold temperatures typical of many climates -- BUT they consume more food when conditions are either warmer OR colder than that optimal range. Cheers Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:33:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: excessive quotes In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921018B0AD3@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Aaron said: This is not a hard concept! The University demands conserving storage resources. Please keep this in consideration in submissions. Bee-L members, I have been a member of this list since it was conceived by Dr. Southwick, SONY, Brockport, NY. After Dr. Southwick passed away, the moderators headed by Aaron are doing an excellent job to maintain this list. It is time to thank them for carrying on this job and keeping this line of bee communication alive. The least we can do is to follow their advise. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:09:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Equalizing brood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "research"? Maybe I missed the point of the question, but I thought the easiest and simplest way to "equalize brood" for "research" was behind the original question. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:01:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Packages versus migratories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frankly from the standpoint of spreading disease and parasites, packages and migratories are one and the same. Granted packages are one way, but where in the definition of the word "migratory" is a return trip implied? While individual packages may be dispersed over a wider area, unless they become part of a "migratory" outfit they rarely move again. The same can't be said for "migratories" and if one factors in the number of moves per year to different locations, not to mention the number of other "migratories" and "sationaries" those hives come in contact with over the course of a year, the picture changes. Bellowing when your "pet" ox is gored, splitting frog hairs and finger pointing is not only counterproductive but it contributes nothing to the solution. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:41:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Migratory Problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, As I have said in other posts, I have a lot of respect for commercial beekeepers in general and Bob Harrison in particular. BeeL is like a big family, and sometimes family members disagree. Bob Harrison wrote; "Beekeeping problems have to be solved without the disruption of the U.S. pollination." I agree with that statement. Pollination is the keystone to much of agriculture. Bob also wrote: "Almond growers and others needing pollination rule the USDA. Many researchers , bee inspectors and USDA officials have tried to stop the flow of hives on local levels. They have told us you are not leaving this state! Then the local official gets a call from his boss and we wave "bye bye". Never fails to put a grin on the migratory beekeepers face!" Ok, if I understand this correctly. A migratory beekeeper has a problem; AFB, mites, fire ants, etc. A bee inspector doing his/her job identifies the problem and realizes the consequences of moving these colonies and informs the beekeeper they can't be moved. At that point a few strings are pulled and the beekeepers are on their merry way, breaking the law, "grinning" all the way to the bank. It's a good thing the USDA does not oversee shipping of toxic or nuclear waste. I know the pollination is critical. But I don't think a beekeeper should be given carte blanche just because they are doing pollination. Bob mentioned that varroa was spread more in packages than by colonies being moved around. I don't doubt that, but I do remember when varroa was starting to spread, packages were at least for awhile being shipped with an Apistan strip. Whether it helped or not is a moot point as varroa is everywhere. I have not purchased any bees, other than queens, for a long time. The queens I do get are used to make splits that are analyzed before moving them out of my home yard. Last week I came across my first small hive beetle in an outyard. The colonies in this yard have been there for a number of years. There are only a few beekeepers around. I asked the state inspector how isolated this yard was and he replied that there were only a few colonies within five miles and I know both beekeepers he mentioned. Last year in another very isolated yard, I had my first case of AFB in 15 years. Can I attribute this to just coincidence or is something else happening? I did a little investigating and learned that a local big orchard outfit has been leasing farmland wherever they can to grow pumpkins. They have a large commercial pollinator doing all the pollination. Last year this same pollinator was selling nucs that were found to have hive beetle. This was the same person that remarked to large group of beekeepers about using (in Bob's words) "sheepdip" for mites because Apistan would bee too expensive for a commercial operation. A few years back in reading Dave Green's posts about mosquito spraying, and the Old Drone always battling with crop dusters, I remember thinking how wrong this was for someone to ignore the regulations and cause harm to the bees and the beekeeping operation. Public health (mosquito spraying), or a grower's pest problems always trumped the beekeeper. We all thought that was pretty rotten. But now we are condoning moving problem colonies because of a pollination need. I wonder what the public would say if an operation in a confirmed Africanized location moved colonies into northern California, Washington or Maine to do pollination. On second thought it may already or will soon be happening now that they have finally admitted AHB is in Florida. How does this all end? The pumpkin grower has pumpkins, the pollinator has a nice big check, and me; I get to burn some colonies and deal with a new pest. If the africianized thought becomes an issue, I will probably start losing some locations. Just because my livelihood is not dependent on beekeeping I am not excited about losing money. Note to Bob Harrison: This was in no way an attack on you personally, if I sounds that way let me apologize right up front, I am not inferring you have anything but a top notch outfit. I just want to point out that we all have a stake in this and we should be responsible in what we do. Ron Bogansky -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:45:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kathy Cox Subject: Stinging insects In-Reply-To: <002001c5adf1$3f4160e0$1f7d2a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter and Paul, Good site. Great advice. I avoid all scented products. Smelling good is not good around the bees, but smelling bad is not good either. Body odor and breath are not good around bees. AND, if you wear a suit WASH IT OFTEN. The phermone of the sting is on it. If I get stung, the smoker smokes the sting site, not the bees. And I wear my hair tied up, because a bee in the hair is as good as a sting on the fingers, trying to remove it, or the scalp getting stung. Kathy Cox Bloomfield Bees and Bouquets Northern California www.kathycox.frankcox.net -Original Message----- Paul Cherubini gave this link: > http://www.acaai.org/public/background/insects.htm Which has this priceless advice on avoiding stings: "...experts say the best advice is simple: don't look, smell or act like a flower." Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:01:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Terri Lynn Hooper Subject: Re: grape pollination In-Reply-To: <002c01c5b765$8cb10b00$bf7a2a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It would appear that experts disagree as to whether or not fruit set is improved by bees. http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/book/chap7/grape.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:36:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Coleene Subject: Northern Michigan crop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I extracted yesterday. We netted about 200 pounds give or take from 3 hives, one of which was nearly lost this past winter so had a lot of building up to do. The girls are now busily cleaning the wet supers on this unseasonably 90 degree day. They should have the job complete before rain. Coleene Marion, MI -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:07:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Packages versus migratories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Frankly from the standpoint of spreading disease and parasites, packages > and migratories are one and the same. Actually, there is a huge divide between a.) all those who keep bees commercially and b.) all those who keep bees for a sideline and/or hobby, and have less dependence on beekeeping profits for a livelihood. While amateurs (in the best sense of the word) are often able to resist the immediate financial rewards that may be associated with moving bees from place to place, or accept immediate financial setbacks that may come from not buying or moving bees, those who are in the commercial end -- be it grower or beekeeper -- are much less able to withstand the pressure to get the job done at the lowest short-term cost and highest profit. Moreover, because predictions are so hard to make, especially when it comes to the to the future (thanks, Yogi), there is a strong tendency for the pros to discount long term threats that may arise from short-term thinking when the short-term benefits are large and obvious. Even when an adverse outcome seems certain, people figure there's a chance that surprises may intervene and they will get away with it. Moreover, many -- even most -- do not care, if they can see that they will be broke long before any chickens come home to roost if they do not make the most profitable short-term decision. Thus, there is a philosophical divide between the amateurs and the pros on this list. The amateurs can afford to see colonies die and subsidize their bee habit, and imagine they are doing great things for the world. The pros, on the other hand, simply count on making enough money every month to pay the bills. There is problem, though when one person, pursuing his own profit or ideals, prevents another from doing the same, and by reducing his own costs, increases those of others -- or imagines that his solution to a problem applies -- or should apply -- to everyone else, if only they were smart enough to see. As I write this in an isolated cottage, supposedly out in nature, I am hearing someone, somewhere across the river, blasting out his favourite tunes. They are not necessarily mine, nor is listening to them what I came here for. Such is life. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:17:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeremiah Wilton Subject: Predation by yellowjackets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed This is my first year keeping bees. I have three hives, and yesterday took about 70Lbs of capped honey off one of them! My question pertains to predation of my bees by yellowjackets. Yellowjackets cruise around all over the beeyard about an inch off the ground looking for bees on the ground to kill. Recently they have become very bold and kill many bees right below the alighting board. Sometimes thay even hop up on the alighting board and take bees right out of the hive entrance. This is making my bees defensive. Any suggestions? -- Jeremiah Wilton http://www.speakeasy.net/~jwilton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:20:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Using colonies for research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > has taken two years to bring the mite infestation to 14.6% (+/- 3.8)in August 2005 samples. This time span for mite population development, it should be considered in any strategy for mite control or research plans. Thanks Medhat for stepping forward! I have done plenty of tests for my own benefit which researchers would not be impressed with. Some I have learned from and others were a waste of time. Doing the test right the first time provides research one knows is correct. Cutting corners leaves doubt. I have had a few of my research projects that have left doubt because I did not take the time to get all the figures before starting., miss taking a count at the right time or wait to long to take the final test. I remember at an ABF convention talking with researchers about some testing I had done but was missing a key varroa drop count. They said the final result proves nothing and needs ran again. I quickly wished I had kept quiet about the project until I had all the figures. I do not want to keep picking on the Norway study but if he had contacted a researcher like MedHat prior to starting Medhat would have been glad to advise on the way to proceed to the satisfaction of the research community! takes only a bit of extra effort to do the study correctly ( I have learned the hard way!). I believe as does Kim & Joe (in my opinion) that because the Norway beekeeper did put an honest effort into the project the study should be published. I for one want to read about what other beekeepers are doing and trying! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:55:49 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Predation by yellowjackets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/09/05 22:49:51 GMT Daylight Time, jwilton@SPEAKEASY.NET writes: <> What size entrances are you using? Are they getting into the hives? I had this same problem my first year, but since then I've been using permanently reduced entrances (about 4 inches wide by 1/4 deep), and mesh floors, with solid floors a few inches below them, walls on three sides, and a false entrance at the back. The latter is really intended for access for checking mitefalls. Many of the wasps try to get in round the back, those few that find the real entrance are easily dealt with by the bees, and I don't have any noticeable problem with wasp predation. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:59:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: grape pollination In-Reply-To: <01c701c5b741$aaf33530$905b70d1@Tom> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Grapes are self-pollinating; bees do not pollinate grapes. That being said, Spencer Marshall has hives in the Napa Valley that forage on other plants, and he does well with his Napa Valley honey. Mea McNeil Do bees >successfully pollinate grapes? I wonder if grapes are self-pollinating. > > I would appreciate >the location for a bee yard, >Larry Krengel >Marengo, IL USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:00:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dick and Everyone, >I seem to remember that a couple of years or so ago, there was a study “discussed” on the now defunct Yahoo Biological Beekeeping group. I do remember this study. A few patches of small cell sized comb was inserted into the center of a frame of large cell comb. These brood combs were then extracted after three or four months. A mite count was done for the capped brood on these frames. And the results compared between the small and large cell size areas. The thought was that small cell size somehow interferred with mite reproduction. It was a common expression with some in the small cell camp about the time of the study. And this study wasn't a bad way to check for that assumption. But it sure didn't test the validy of small cell beekeeping at all. >all I can say is that in my case, bees that I had on small cell comb for well over a year became badly infested with mites. Forgive me if I've missed your posts, but I'm quite interested in the details as our experiences appear very different concerning small cell. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:04:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Equalizing research colonies In-Reply-To: <002201c5b763$46e22c00$2dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison writes about: The book is taken from the first International Conference on the Asian Honey Bees and Bee Mites in Bangkok, Thailand in Feb. of 1992 if searching the net for the research paper. Reply: As I have the book, this time instead of reading I will reply from comments written in the margin long ago. Now going to page 528 (the part I keyed into) it says: Because of the larger diameter of the worker brood cells, the cell invasion behavior of the varroa population is changing in such a way that the number of invading mites during a comparable period is seriously reduced (possible by some 20%). Colonies with enlarged worker brood cells (640 cells dm2)have fewer mites in the broodnest and proportionally more mites on the adult bees than colonies with normal worker brood cells. The same phenomenon seems to be the case with ANP combs (De Cleroq and Ramon 1991, Ramon et al. 1991). Then following in the Concousions it is said: The results of the experiments show that the number of invading mites is seriously recuced in the larger cell type. Now my thoughts for Bob and others: What this says to me is the tergits are now wider with other body parts allowing for more phoretic mites to chew and live on the bodies of the bees so the proportionate increase on the bodies of the adult bees, of say 20% offsets the loss in the cells, or merely a relocation swap is going on......but leaves more case for secondary infections in the larger cells of which nothing is mentioned. Sure it says the number of invading mites is reduced, for they are now on the bodies of the adult bees chewing away. But then treatments and dusting were to take care of that! Also this is an artificial change in varroa behaviour by enlargement of cell size, for on naturally sized comb, the varroa go to the smaller cells, like a living liver, to be gotten rid of from the heart of the hive at brood nest turn over time, and by continuous chewing out as needed. sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona (yes we have moved to new hqs) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 07:01:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Equalizing research colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, Thanks to Dee for her comments. A resonable explanation for the study findings. I also found the study (depite the attention to detail) lacking in discussion of what their conclusions were. The focus of the study was in their own words on page 521 "experiments were carried out to investigate whether it is possible to reduce the period during which varroa is entering the brood cells" There are four areas which influence population growth of varroa. The study only focused on one area. I have long thought the statement in the book "Mites of the Honey Bee" about the study should have added the fact that the study only focused on one area and three other areas are known to exist (and possibly many others). The short life span of varroa in the bee lab has caused problems for researchers doing studies. Diana Sammataro (USDA bee lab) has told me in conversation that the lab has came up with a method to keep varroa alive longer in the lab and is optimistic watching the varroa reproduce in the lab will become a reality in the future. Varroa is one tough cookie. Incest is best with varroa! Ever tried to kill a tick? Not easy! Varroa are similar to ticks. Bees are fragile compared to varroa. Dee & I do not see "eye to eye" on all issues but do agree on many! The love affair of the beekeepers with chemicals has got to stop! A dead end street! David Vanderduesen and I have been friends for a very long time. I have watched the registration of his Mite-Away pads with interest. The Midwestern Beekeepers newsletter (came yesterday) has detailed instructions for use. Says to pull pads if temps reach over 82F. Really limits use at a time when control is needed in Missouri. Four paragraphs of cautions. Control of varroa for those using chemicals has become harder and complicated. The days of simply sticking a strip in the hive has passed. Dee, Dennis and Joe report success with small cell. Others have not. I have had success with varroa tolerant lines and others have not. My focus has not been on small cell although I have ran experiments. My focus has been on varroa tolerant (VT) lines. Install a new VT queen and forget about varroa was the idea. Everything worked as planned but still takes time and long term success is hard to find in areas where non VT drones are flying. queens are superceded far more than originally thought. Start marking your queens and you will see what I mean. I have found that even the most VT lines can lose varroa tolerance when daughters are open mated more than once with non VT lines. In some areas of the U.S. (your yards are next to a beekeeper with non varroa tolerant lines) you may need to keep bringing in varroa tolerant lines. In other areas once establised there is little need. I have waited four years to say the above but believe the above to be true after watching different yards over the last four years. Sincerely, Bob Harrison "getting my pitch in for VT lines early" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 09:42:36 -0400 Reply-To: beegood@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Unfortunate beekeeping practices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable R. Bogansky said "I know the pollination is critical. But I don't think a= =20 beekeeper should be given carte blanche just because they are doing pollination." I couldn't agree more. Jim Fischer, who we no longer hear from, once said= =20 that the migratory beekeepers are effectively assessing a tax on the rest o= f=20 us. (And, yes, we still have large commercial operations that are *not*migratory.) All of us who are not migratory have to 'pay the price' for resistant AFB, SHB, mites resistant to fluvalinate and choumaphous, and now= =20 (here in the northeast) africanized bees. (They seem to not be surviving th= e=20 winter.) While I admit migratory beekeepers have to 'make a living', and pollinatio= n=20 is necessary, who gave migratory beekeepers the right to assess monetary=20 damage on the rest of us? We should all be help responsible for our actions= ,=20 but this tiny group is not self-policing and is likely to continue their=20 unfortunate practices without penalty. --=20 Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 09:25:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Migratory Problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ron & All, Excellent post! I say things the way they are in today's beekeeping world. Would you rather I candy coat the situation? I don't think so! >beekeeper has a problem; AFB, mites, fire ants, etc. A bee inspector doing his/her job identifies the problem and realizes the consequences of moving these colonies and informs the beekeeper they can't be moved. The above paints the scenario with a broad brush. AFB: The load will not a health permit to leave the state. If found in say California the problem has to be dealt with before a permit to leave is issued. mites: Not an issue today but hives have been burned and loads stopped for a time period in past history. fire ants: Loads are turned around and not allowed to enter or taken to a holding area for the load to be cleaned of fire ants. Fire ants are in California so a moog point but important to the powers that be! The problem from the migratory beekeepers point of veiw! Beekeepers have loss loads to indecision. incompetent inspectors do not know (or afraid to amke a decision) what to do so the load sits. They cause loads to sit in the hot sun while samples are sent away! The last time the two ants found (Bell Honey Co.) were found three days later to NOT be fire ants! Two thirds of the bees died and the load was voluntarily turned around. I would have pulled the nets! The semi driver was a whimp! After three days why wait! The almond grower was upset and pollination was lost. Pollination & trucking fees were lost by Bell Honey company. The inspection dept. refused to pay for the loss! On the bright side the other seventeen semi loads went through! >are on their merry way, breaking the law, "grinning" all the way to the bank. When the powers that be release the load then is the beekeeper really breaking the law. Driving through the baracades and going *postal* (new word which will soon be added to the dictionary) on the inspection service would in my opinion be a violation of the law. >think a beekeeper should be given carte blanche just because they are doing pollination. I don't think they are but common sense is needed many times. > Last week I came across my first small hive beetle in an outyard. >Last year in another very isolated yard, I had my first case of AFB in 15 years. Blame the other beekeeper would be the logical thing to do! Course the AFb & Small hive beetle problem will still be there to deal with! >Can I attribute this to just coincidence or is something else happening? AFB can come from a bee getting honey out of a jar in a trash can with spores. A large problem is usually from robbing out AFB deadouts in the area of your hives. Look for an unattended apiary. Call your fellow beekeepers and inform them of the problem so they can be on the lookout. SHB is spreading as is AHB. In my opinion more so by packages but migratory movement is helping for sure! > They have a large commercial pollinator doing all the pollination. Blame him as he could be the source of both problems. Demand your inspector take a look . >same pollinator was selling nucs that were found to have hive beetle. > using "sheepdip" for mites because Apistan would bee too expensive for a commercial operation. I have talked till I was blue in the face to a few of these guys! I will be glad when their operation goes under like I know it will! Don't ask these guys to speak at meetings! Just because they run a bunch of hives does not mean they are doing things correctly. Preaching Illegal methods at a bee meeting is stupid. The fine is $10,000 U.S. for what the beekeeper is doing! One call to the FDA and he is in trouble and he will wish he bought apistan! < On second thought it may already I agree but little can be done! > Bob Harrison: This was in no way an attack on you personally, None taken! You are not afraid to ask the tough questions! I am not afraid to address the tough answers! Lurkers are listening and hopefully learning! Your friend, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:36:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Africanized bees in the northeast! (Was: Unfortunate beekeeping practices) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd wrote: "and now (here in the northeast) africanized bees." Can you give a source for that information? I must have missed something. Florida was the last update I saw. Aaron Morris - thinking NIMBY! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:13:12 -0400 Reply-To: beegood@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Africanized Bees in the Northeast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some have asked me the reason for my reference to africanized bees being=20 present in the Northeast. In 2004 I was told by two migratory beekeepers with homes (and summer=20 locations) nearby (Albany, New York) that they were reasonably sure they ha= d=20 encountered africanized bees during the winter of 20003-2004 while in=20 Florida, and that they almost surely brought some back to New York. I didn'= t=20 pay a lot of attention. During the winter of 2004-2005 the Florida Beekeeping List had lots of=20 complaints of hives that were out of control. Early on I asked the powers= =20 that be in Florida whether than meant that africanized bees were being foun= d=20 and it was emphatically and quickly denied. So quick was the response that = I=20 wondered if it had been rehearsed in anticipation of the question...and the= =20 effect on tourism.=20 We all know that in early spring (after the winter tourist season) Florida= =20 finally admitted widespread africanization and, as you all know, this does= =20 not happen overnight! Well, the same two migratory guys are still here. One winters about 400=20 hives (and treats with sheep dip) and splits them four ways in the spring= =20 for pumpkin pollination near here. (On a per acre basis, pumpkins are one o= f=20 NYS's most profitable crops.) He reports widespread africanization of his= =20 hives this year. I was picking raspberries about 50 yards from his hives in= =20 July and was suddenly attacked by a cloud of bees. I've never seen anything= =20 like it. No one was near the hives, or nearer than I was. AFAIK, they were= =20 completely unprovoked. I counted 37 stings on my arms, hands and face, and= =20 had a further number on my head. And this was in the 2 or so minutes it too= k=20 me to get to my truck! They eventually had to close the pick-your-own raspberry operation and the= =20 pollinator killed four (out of 20) hives. The property owners told me that= =20 next year they will find another pollinator. So, this is anecdotal information. But I, for one, believe they were=20 africanized bees and now that Florida is confirmed as being 'widely=20 infected', I don't see how we can expect to avoid similar infestation, at= =20 least during the summer. --=20 Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:01:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Africanized bees in the northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I bought some packages from La this spring. Of the 11 most were feisty = but workable. One of the bunch was so defensive that they were = impossible to work. They were mostly OK if I left them alone but I still = couldn't get out of the truck without putting a veil on. I finally = destroyed them. A fellow beekeeper with 100 hives and 25 years = experience said they were the worst he had ever seen. I never found how = far they would follow me but 200 yards wasn't enough. I sent samples to the Tucson lab and the result was that there was a 13% = chance they were Africanized. AHBs are coming to the north east and not only from migratory = beekeepers, since we all buy our packages and mated queens from states = where AHB are established. In Ct where there aren't too many sites that = are isolated Beekeeping must diminish. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:47:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Waggle Subject: Re: The bacterium behind AFB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit First, Thanks to Trevor and Peter for responding. Here's waht I have on the reclassification: In 1993 Ash et al. proposed that members of "group 3" within the genus ¤ Bacillus should be transferred to the genus Paenibacillus, for which they proposed ¤ Paenibacillus polymyxa as the type species. These proposals were validly published by publication in the Validation Lists No. 51 (Paenibacillus polymyxa) and No. 52 (further species) in 1994 and 1995 respectively. http://www.bacterio.cict.fr/p/paenibacillus.html This bacterium, formerly named Bacillus larvae, was reclassified into the new genus Paenibacillus (5) on the basis of the 16S rRNA sequence diversity. The P. larvae strains are divided into two distinct subspecies, P. larvae subsp. larvae and P. larvae subsp. pulvifaciens (14). Although P. larvae subsp. larvae is considered to be the cause of American foulbrood, P. larvae subsp. pulvifaciens is capable of causing similar but usually milder clinical symptoms. http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/69/3/1504 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:56:30 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Comb Orientation in feral hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do not know whether bees in the Northern Hemisphere have a directional = preference for their combs,=20 but there is a wonderful paper on comb orientation in swarms by a fellow = named DeJong. The=20 experiment was done in Brazil I believe, which would make it close to = the equator. Apparently there=20 the comb orientation in swarms will usually be the same as that of the = parent hive (if there are no starter strips or other physical constraints). In the case of the = experiment the swarm bait hives were=20 round (the walls anyway, perhaps they were a cylinder on end: I am = obviously writing this from memory and do not have the paper in front of me). As far as the discussion in = this thread about the direction of the entrance I can be of no help as I do not recall how this was = dealt with in the experiment. The fascinating thing about the experiment was that usually the swarms = oriented closely with the comb direction of the parent hive. However, if an artifical magnetic = field was created around the swarm box which was perpendicular to the earths magnetic field, then the = swarm's combs would also be=20 perpendicular to the parent colonies combs. Regards Stan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:30:48 -0700 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Africanized bees in the northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem with the tests they do around here are that they are mitochondrial DNA tests which basically tell you nothing. A EHB queen can mate with 8 EHB drones and 2 AHB drones and the hive can be meaner than mountain lion pee and still turn up negative. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:01:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Churchill Subject: Re: Comb Orientation in feral hives In-Reply-To: <000e01c5b8b6$652ca330$94289aa5@stanshoney> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed As an interesting anecdote, this past weekend I participated in a class on removing bees from buildings. In the second part of the class we removed two feral hives from the wall of a building. In the first hive, the comb was oriented parallel to the wall studs. In the second, just a few feet away and on the same wall, the orientation was perpendicular to the studs. Orientation, lighting, weather, etc were substantially identical given the close proximity of the two hives. Mike -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:26:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Comb Orientation in feral hives In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050913185324.01e37b10@mail.keyrelevance.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Very interesting on the placement of comb between the two. Could you tell what time of year each was started in relationship to placement of sun orientation shining? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small cell commercial beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:47:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Brown Subject: Re: Africanized bees in the northeast! (Was: Unfortunate beekeeping practices) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Reports were that migratory beekeepers (with proper permits) unknowingly left Florida with hives of Africanized Honey bees. They traveled the I-95 corridor to Maine for blueberry polination, and then placed hives throughout the NE for summer honey production. With expected results i.e. swarms issued from these "hot hives". Also, Florida's African honeybee problem maybe more widespread than than previously reported. We are working on new rules/regulations to prevent this from happening in the future, but the cows may have already left the barn. > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- _______________________________________________ Search for businesses by name, location, or phone number. -Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 04:29:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Did Lloyd report his stinging incedent to his state's agency? If he had, a sample of bees could have been taken and a positive or negative determination could have been made, by a USDA lab. Aggresive or overly aggresive bees do not AHBs make. Lets not cry wolf without evidence. --------------------------------- Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 08:20:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Unfortunate beekeeping practices I have wondered how long before a state dept of Ag gets sued by some group of non-migratory beekeepers or ordinary citizens for doing basically nothing about stopping the introduction of AHB when migratory beekeepers return from almond pollination or move hives from known infested areas. As Loyd infered the problem is not as serious in the North where they are unlikely to survive but I could see in southern regions a conflicting set of interests building especially in Florida.. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:48:25 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit With respect to questioning Lloyd's assertion as to the likelihood that these colonies were in fact AHB's, in spite of a lack of lab analysis: Lloyd has contributed for quite some time to Bee-L, and his posts indicate the breadth and quality of his experience as a beekeeper. Some of the hives in question were reported to be destroyed The number of stings and the distance from the hive are not typical of "aggressive" non AHB colonies I think a greater indictment resulting from Lloyd's post was the fact that the beekeeper in question, who presumably killed off a few of his hives, did not send specimens for analysis. If his treatment regimen for parasites is already beyond the scope of legally approved "standard practice" it's very unlikely he would have taken this responsible step. Can any of us say that we don't know any beekeepers who selectively decline to adhiere to certain obligations, whether the logging of pesticide applications, or notifications to governement authorities of overwintering locations (the law here in New Jersey)? The impact of AHB's on the non-commercial industry, particularly in the more populated areas of the Northeast, is potentially quite serious. Even if the AHB problem only "commutes" into the area each Spring, the potential nature of swarms will change, the public's perception of bees may nose dive in spite of many efforts by beekeepers to boost the image of the insect, and assuming the overwintering ability still prevents AHB's from setting up year round residence, beekeepers will have to monitor hives frequently. Municipal prohibition against bees may increase, and insurance rates may also take a toll. Curtis Crowell Hightstown, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:02:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Churchill Subject: Re: Comb Orientation in feral hives In-Reply-To: <20050914042626.66643.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Dee A. Lusby wrote: >Could you tell what time of year each was started in >relationship to placement of sun orientation shining? I believe it was the northern wall of the building, so the wall received no direct sunlight. I observed that some of the comb was new and some older. I do not know the age of the colonies, but was told that bees had been occupying the structure for years. We saw some evidence of past wax moth damage. It is likely that several successive colonies of bees had used the space. I couldn't venture a guess as to how long these particular colonies had been in that location. Mike -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:08:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Africanized bees in the northeast! (Was: Unfortunate beekeeping practices) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > but the cows may have already left the barn. The AHB cows left the barn a long time ago in my opinion. You can not expect an understaffed agency to control a problem of this magnitude. Take samples, advise and document the spread has been the position so far. When you look at the problem as a realist you come to the same conclusion. AHB is uncontrollable. Exactly like a noxious weed. Control is practiced for awhile and then you turn to plan B,then c etc.. I have got an upcoming article on a noxious weed which will be a must read for all beekeepers! Not sure when will be in print but within the next three issues of ABJ. The only outward signs of AHB are aggressive behavior. Even our best tests only show the degree of africanization. Not if the bees have got the aggressive genes as Dr. Kerr put an ID on so many years ago! When a single dept. head at Baton Rouge Bee lab decided to stop the work of Steve Tabor all research on the problem now facing us stopped. Sad as Dr. Kerr was the worlds foremost bee geneticist at the time. He is still around in Brazil and perhaps the USDA should approach Dr. Kerr and ask for help! I might add my knowledge of what happened at the Baton Rouge Bee lab in 1960's comes from direct (in person) conversation with Steve Tabor! The plan by beekeepers to kill AHB in Panama was a sound plan. We would not be in this situation if the USDA had listened (or at least not a problem at this time in history). What is happening now with AHB is not new news. The USDA knew was going to happen. The scenario has been talked about at national meetings of both groups. AHB will be a problem in hives in the southern U.S. and become established. Stinging incidents will occur. Many hobby beekeepers will quit (as will some primitive commercial beekeepers that do not wish to change methods). Changes will have to be made as to locations and commercial beekeeping methods! Failure to do so will hurt the industry as a whole! The above is the plan A as told to us by the powers that be! A possible plan C. "Beekeepers in some cases will kill hives at the end of the season and replace with AHB gene free (and varroa /tracheal mite free ) packages from Australia". Supplies will be limited and only those close to sources will get those packages. The industry in Australia is simply to small to supply the need. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 08:39:00 -0700 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "and assuming the overwintering ability still prevents AHB's from setting up year round residence" You can't assume that. I've mentioned here several times that where I kept scuts in South Africa the ground froze during the winter. Also, there was only 3 inches of rain every year (Bushmanland area), and they are very capable of putting up stores and stopping laying during times of little food. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:30:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Africanized bees in the northeast! (Was: Unfortunate beekeeping practices),also was Migratory Problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello to Everyone, A friend awakened me to the recent flurry of posts regarding the spread of Africanized Honey Bees (AHB) and I found the following posts below which together have provided a common thread that IMHO was quite difficult to pick up and follow. I say this without prejudice to anyone; I just wanted to make my point on this matter understood and give reference to the preceding posts so that future readers may more easily pick up and follow this quite serious topic. These are the recent posts that I am aware of on this subject: "AHB in the Northeast" "Africanized bees in the northeast" "Africanized bees in the northeast! (Was: Unfortunate beekeeping practices" "Migratory Problems" " Unfortunate beekeeping practices" I am glad to see this subject brought out into the open on BEE-L. I had first written about this in the April and May issues of “The American Bee Journal”, and some folks came back to me and asked if I was being a “Chicken Little”. The spread of AHB is a serious matter with IMHO a high probability. This is now possible through migratory routes from the southern states to the north. Take a few minutes and go to the NAPIS map, http://ceris.purdue.edu/napis/pests/shb/imap/shball.html, and check out the “distribution” of the Small Hive Beetle as of 5/21/2005. Those who have followed the NAPIS publications on this subject over the years since the turn of the Century should recall that the “Avenues of Distribution” are along the corridors of the Interstate Highway System, predominately Interstate 95 in the eastern states. Here in North Carolina I watched annual published updates by the North Carolina Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services and NAPIS showing counties with the Small Hive Beetle (SHB) slowly spreading from the major north-south corridors. Although interstate transportation of honey bees through North Carolina was and is permitted; it is not permitted for the trucks carrying migratory honey bees to stop with the “motor off”. Bee nets work as well as they are tied down. The SHB slowly gained a presence throughout most of North Carolina. I still have to keep hives and supers of honey separated from those yards having SHB in order to avoid the spread of SMB within my own operations. Now that Florida has publicly confirmed a feral status of AHB I am certain that unless drastic steps are taken once again the Interstate Highways will become a corridor, in this instance for the distribution of AHB. The big fact in this dismal situation is that this country can’t get along without having the honey bee performing pollination of her croplands, and most likely the USDA, APIS, NAPIS, and individual state departments of agriculture will look the other way when trucks of honey bees, some loaded with hives of AHB, go merrily along the interstate spreading genetic misery to the beekeeping industry and the general public at large. With sincere thoughts, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm-Chuck Norton 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320-3648 Tel: 336 342 4490 Home of: www.sourwoodhoney.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 11:25:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Brown Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would assume that some of these hives could survive in some northern climates. I have removed several feral hives in my area of the Florida panhandle which were presumed to be africanized. One removal was in late August, approximately 2 1/2 months after our last major honey flow and I removed 50-60 lbs of honey from the hive, and the hive also had considerable amount pollen in it (about an equal amount of pollen and brood). IMO these bees still have a dominate amount of EHB genes still in them, however this doesn't necessarily help their behavior, but can and will help them survive in colder climates. > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- _______________________________________________ Search for businesses by name, location, or phone number. -Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:56:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Tremblay Hugo (DREST) (Chicoutimi)" Subject: AHB Lab ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings, a question regarding the thread on the (possible) presence of AHB in = North-eastern USA: what and where are the labs that can identify Africanized Honey Bees ?=20 Thanks Hugo Tremblay Jonquiere, Quebec -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 14:38:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: AHB Lab ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For suspicious finds in the United States here is a cut and paste from the May 2005 "American Bee Journal" article, The Price of California’s Almond Pollination, Part II: "If you have found a suspicious hive or swarm that is quite aggressive call your state apiary inspection service first (see: State Apiarist Directory in the Internet reference section). Unfortunately, many states no longer fund a state apiarist position or an apiary inspection service. The following contact, URL, and telephone number is given so that the reader may contact the Carl Hayden Bee Research Center directly. Those ABJ readers that do not have a state apiary inspection service may wish to send a 40 to 60 bee sample of suspected AHB in a vial covered with ethanol alcohol labeled with your phone number, name and address, and a note to: Mona Chambers Carl Hayden Bee Research Center 200 E. Allen Road Tucson, AZ 85719 Ms. Chambers may be reached by phone at (520) 670-6380 EXT 105; the web page for this important service is: http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/morphometrics.html" Sincerely, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm-Chuck Norton 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320-3648 Tel: 336 342 4490 Home of: www.sourwoodhoney.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:06:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...and a positive or negative determination could have been made, by a > USDA lab. FWIW, when I was in Tucson recently, at the ARS lab, I was surprised to learn that the routine AHB tests were being done by morphometrics. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:24:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Greg & All, > presumed to be africanized. > IMO these bees still have a dominate amount of EHB genes still in them, however this doesn't necessarily help their behavior, Dr. Kerr isolated the genes which controlled aggressive behavior in AHB. He believe two and maybe three caused the aggression. Like Greg said the bees might be mostly EHB but carry the aggressive genetics. You can not tell by looking! color means nothing! The bottom line is simple. You are always on the lookout for aggressive bees. Then you have two choices. 1. kill the bees and sit the equipment aside for reuse. 2. split the hive into three nucs and requeen each. I have done number two and prefer number one for the commercial beekeeper. Number two is hard, involves stings and several replacement queens plus the aggressive workers will be around for another six to eight weeks! A non residual chemical is available to pest control applicators but not the public. A few second burst and plug the entrance and the bees are all dead on the bottom board in approx. about 30 seconds Does not contaminate the wax *I have been told*. A pest control applicator license is not hard to get in Missouri. Watch a one hour video and pay a fee. Not sure about other states. State bee inspectors may need to get the license. No need for panic as we have known the AHB problem was coming since 1957! Does it really matter if the bees are found by a lab to *possibly* carry AHB genetics? Why keep aggressive bees around ? It is our job as beekeepers to inform the public to the possible danger from swarms, keep yards at a reasonable distance from people, maybe place warning signs on the entrance to yards and to solve the problem in our own backyards! My friends in Texas simply kill off aggressive hives! At first they sent off samples but why waste our lab resources. A stinging incident maybe but for aggressive bees lets kill or requeen and get on with life! As I said before on BEE-L AHb does not scare me! Not to discredit Lloyd's story but have taken twice as many stings from EHB on several occasions! Pointing the finger and suing the USDA will not solve the problem. As beekeepers the world will look to us for their AHB answers! Hollywood and the media try to scare people. As beekeepers we need to stick to reality! The honey bee is a valuable part of U.S. agriculture. The industry does not need a black eye and sensationalism! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:32:10 -0400 Reply-To: beegood@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: AHB in the Northeast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI...I had to look it up..."Morphometrics is the branch of mathematics=20 studying the metrical and statistical properties of shapes and shape change= s=20 of geometric objects like molecules, fossiles, brains, bird wings, ancient= =20 handcraft, modern cars, etc." Maybe it would be easier to just reference "nasty Florida bees"? Lloyd=20 --=20 Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:45:15 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: queen bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have received an enquiry from Lawrenceburg, Tennessee in the United = States re getting two (2) queen bees. It is for observation hives for = the State Fair. They are frantically trying to locate some queens. = Obviously the cost to send two to the USA from Australia would be very = high, probably in the hundreds of dollars by the time you pay for = permits, freight, airline charges etc. They are needed to be with the = people by Sept 23, 2005=20 If anyone in the USA can help please contact me direct and I will pass = on the contact details in Tennessee. My email is queenbee@gil.com.au Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:45:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As I said before on BEE-L AHb does not scare me! Not to discredit Lloyd's > story but have taken twice as many stings from EHB on several occasions! EHB have been responsible for serious stinging incidents, AFAIK, since the beginning of time. Such events have been infrequent, but very real. They still are, AHB or no AHB, AFAIK, however the advent of AHB changes such occurrences from being understood as unexplained and random incidents to being perceived as expected and predicted events. As to the frequency, there *may* be an increase, or may not. I do not know. Seems to me that I heard that there was no statistically significant increase in deaths from bee stings in newly colonized AHB areas in the USA over what was measured before under EHB, that could not be explained by changes in human populations and other factors. Anybody have the facts? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:24:08 -0500 Reply-To: Erik Whalen-Pedersen Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Erik Whalen-Pedersen Subject: Africanized Determination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My understanding is also that the field determinations of "Africanized" bees (i.e. local lab) are done via biometric data (wing lengths, etc.) but the definitive testing is being done using the DNA methods which are much more costly. These DNA methods are also probabilistic in nature and would only indicate an X % match to an Africanized vs. a European bee. Erik -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:10:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Plan C MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another possible source of non AHB may be Canada (Plan C an ) Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 01:47:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Traynor Subject: AHB Questions In-Reply-To: <001a01c5b97e$135da810$16a02fd1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I fully realize that EHB can be very aggressive. I have far less experience than others on this list, but I do know what it feels like for several hundred workers to attack your veil so that their weight pushes the veil in, making the suit have very little protection as you are stung more times than is easy to count. Going up to a quarter mile away from the hive, you are still being stung in a full suit. I live on many acres, but many beekeepers I know live on very little property where children can easily come into contact with aggressive bees. Yes, the child is wrong for being there, but I would not want to be the one explaining that to a jury. When the media uses africanized honey bees (correctly or not) to arouse fear and sell more publications, the public is very likely to act. I have talked to and read the articles of many researchers on AHB. Their conclusions were that when a EHB queen mates with AHB drones the offspring are fully AHB. The worker's genes are not part AHB and part EHB. Since the AHB drone flies at a later time than the EHB drone, the EHB queen is more likely to be mated with AHB drones in the same area. Researchers have told me this is because the AHB drones' flight times better match the EHB virgin queen's mating flight times. My question is that if only a few of the many drones the queen mates with are AHB, then are just some of the workers AHB? Can the presence in a hive of some AHB workers cause other non AHB to also be aggressive? Is there any research data on this? I have done a lot of looking in books and extensively on the web and have not found the answers yet. In reading the various post on AHB, it is fine for an experienced beekeeper to say he is not afraid of AHB. The problem for all of us beekeepers is that the public IS. Whether that is right or wrong is totally insignificant when we as beekeepers consider that it is this fearful part of the public who make laws that can shut us down. Because of their fear, they can cause laws to be enacted that are designed to protect them and their children from bee attacks. We are all well aware of the extra sensationalism of the various news media on this subject. Insurance rates for beekeepers will become totally unrealistic in any populated area. Can we just focus our positive energies on getting our national government to better see what will happen if not only the commercial beekeeper but the small and new beekeepers are legislated away? What will be the cost to our food supplies and the economy of this country for the short sightedness of the public and the lawmaker?. We only need a few national incidents affecting the elderly or children for the news media to cause an hysteria requiring laws to protect those in fear. I appreciate that so many of you have shared information about what your feelings and experiences have been in this matter for the rest of us to learn from. Unfortunately emails are permanent public records in today's world, as you know. When we discuss most beekeeping problems our differences of opinion are not going to come back on us in court. However, should a beekeeper here have a situation where it could be shown that their bees were the attacking bees, then our prior attitude could be subject to civil and/or criminal prosecution. Therefore, how we say something in these emails relevant to a perceived public danger is very important. Obviously we want to be able to continue our discussions, so that issues can be raised and solved. In court the focus in a civil and/or criminal matter can be what our prior attitudes were on the matter. Every state needs to take responsibility for the beekeepers' problems with AHB. Making legislators more aware of the problems then removes the problems from the beekeeper and onto the legislators, because the legislators can not just say "Well no one told me anything about this"! We are beekeepers because of our independent natures. When our freedom as beekeepers is affected, we are better united to correct the problems while we are still in a position to do so. Michael > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:23:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen and all > I was surprised to learn that the routine AHB tests > were being done by morphometrics. As someone who is about to launch on a re-examination on the possible inter-relations of the various parameters that are measured and compared, can I ask why surprise has been expressed ? Regards & best 73s Dave Cushman G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/ http://www.dave-cushman.net/ Temporary Set Up -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:03:15 +0200 Reply-To: pmcmahon@pnp.co.za Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter McMahon Organization: pnp.co.za Subject: Re: AHB Questions In-Reply-To: <43290B08.1040201@adelphia.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 I am an amateur beekeeper in the western cape of South Africa and as such keep A.M.Capensis. I have had no exposure to any other honeybee species and can therefore only comment on the AM Capensis.I find all the hype around your AHB a bit disconcerting and a bit exaggerated as I have not found the bees to particularly aggressive. Do other strains of honeybee not defend their hives with their stings and are their stings any different to that of the AM Capensis. Of course if one approaches the hive with an aggressive attitude , one can only expect the girls to react accordingly. I would not have it any other way as I find my girls welcome me with open wings - I must admit that I would not even think of approaching any hives without protective clothing. Regards Peter McMahon Read our disclaimer at: http://www.picknpay.co.za/pnp/view/pnp/en/page5093? If you don't have web access, the disclaimer can be mailed to you on request. Disclaimer requests to be sent to it-security@pnp.co.za -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:13:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: > As someone who is about to launch on a re-examination on the possible > inter-relations of the various parameters that are measured and compared, Hi Dave Can you give any more details of the purpose and scope of the re-examination? I use morphometry (CooRecorder and CBeeWing) and plan to do much more during the next year, so would be interested to know of any new developments. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:16:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Unfortunate beekeeping practices > Jim Fischer, who we no longer hear from, Well, perhaps not as often as you might like, but I'm around. :) > once said that the migratory beekeepers are effectively > assessing a tax on the rest of us. All of us who are not > migratory have to 'pay the price' for resistant AFB, SHB, > mites resistant to fluvalinate and choumaphous, and now > (here in the northeast) africanized bees. Hold on there... while I did point out that migratory operations inherently externalize their costs upon other beekeepers unlucky enough to be in their path, this statement ("externalization of costs and internalization of profits") was based upon something that is lacking in the specific case of "AHB in the Northeast" - firm proof. Further, I know of no reason why any migratory operator would tolerate even a single highly aggressive hive, so for the specific case of AHB, I think we should be able to agree that all beekeepers have a shared agenda. Given that migratory operations tend to load and unload hives onto trucks, it should be clear that ample opportunity exists for highly defensive hives to be noticed during the loading/unloading process. I don't know anyone who is so smooth a Swinger operator as to be able to move a pallet containing a hive of AHB without, ummm, "noticing". :) > While I admit migratory beekeepers have to 'make a living', > and pollination is necessary, who gave migratory beekeepers > the right to assess monetary damage on the rest of us? Who gave NON-migratory beekeepers the right to level such accusations without strict proof? I like to think about what happens AFTER "what comes next". AHB present significant risks of civil damage suits against a migratory operation, so I don't see the typical model for externalizing costs at work here. AHB can impact civilians. The other diseases and pests impact only other beekeepers. If AHB becomes a common problem in migratory areas, regulators will be unable to cut the migratory boys any slack, due to the "public health" implications of AHB in areas where the civilians have not been educated. This will require more extensive inspections, as inspecting a "statistical sample" of hives will not detect the (assumed) small number of highly aggressive hives amongst the beekeeper's hives. A smart migratory operation would start video taping their loading and unloading sessions, and keep the tapes as "proof" that no hives in the load reacted in an extreme manner to the bumping and jostling inherent in the process. This would be very effective proof that the beekeeper took "due care" to assure that his load was "docile". The effort could even make a profit - take selected segments of tape and sell "America's Funniest Dropped-Pallet Videos" or, for the segments that detect AHB hives, "Bees Gone Wild". I'd pay $20 for such a tape, and so would you - admit it. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:19:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As someone who is about to launch on a re-examination on the possible > inter-relations of the various parameters that are measured and compared, > can I ask why surprise has been expressed ? My understanding is that such comparisons have limited accuracy. For that matter, I have reservations about DNA testing too, due to all these comparisons being dependant on having a clear idea of the origin and purity of the standard samples. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:17:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: AHB Questions In-Reply-To: <43290B08.1040201@adelphia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-581D6285 At 01:47 AM 9/15/2005, you wrote: >My question is that if only a few of the many drones the queen mates >with are AHB, then are just some of the workers AHB? Can the presence in >a hive of some AHB workers cause other non AHB to also be aggressive? Is >there any research data on this? Yes,Yes and maybe. I suspect it's more anecdotal evidence than hard numbers. I can't point to any specific research done on this, but was told by Sue Cobey that a hive will be aggressive if only some of the workers are AHB. I had no reason to question her statement at the time, so I don't know what her source was on this. You could contact her directly by e-mail and ask if you want. I do know from several sources that queens are being produced in the south in areas where AHB are found and some at least partially africanized queens are being shipped. I have also had one customer that claimed he had purchased queens from the same producer in Texas for 11 years, but last year got 2 very aggressive queens. He did send samples out for testing and both hives tested fully Africanized. It's also been suggested that the reason why certain counties in texas are not quarantined while all adjacent counties (or at least 3 sides of the county) are quarantined has been is politics (ie. a queen/package producer operates from those counties). I don't know how much truth to this there is, and can't claim to know the geography of Texas and what natural features would keep AHB out of specific counties and not others, but I do find it strange to see such island or peninsula counties where AHB won't cross the borders, yet at least one of the peninsula counties at least is suitable for EHB queen production by a large producer. See http://agnews.tamu.edu/bees/quaran.htm for a map. > Every state needs to take responsibility for the beekeepers' problems > with AHB. Making legislators more aware of the problems then removes the > problems from the beekeeper and onto the legislators, because the > legislators can not just say "Well no one told me anything about this"! I can't speak for other states, but I know Ohio is ill equiped currently to handle the problem (and I suspect many others are in the same boat). The state budget has been cut and we are down to just two inspectors. Counties are expected to hire and pay for their own inspectors and their budgets have been cut as well. Some counties have gone without an inspector, and I know others have been under funded and simply inspect until the money runs out. Those willing to take the job have also been hard to find and I have been unimpressed with the experience of some of those hired (but at least those counties still have an inspector). I know in once case the state has given permission to sell nucs without inspection when the county inspector had retired and the remaining state inspectors couldn't get around to everyone. Last year only about half my hives were inspected at least according to the inspection reports I received by mail, and this year I don't believe my hives have been inspected yet at all. Plus, unless you sell bees, queens or move them in/out of the state, you can request not to be inspected (I'm sure this helps the budget, but defeats the purpose). I know what remains of the apiary section (of the department of agriculture) is doing all they can, but they are understaffed and under funded for the task. So the future of the program really rests on the legislature, and unless many of us speak up it will continue to have funding cut because no problem is perceived. -Tim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.25/102 - Release Date: 9/14/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:49:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: "AHB" in Albany NY area Comments: cc: bob.mungari@agmkt.state.ny.us, sqkcrk@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FWIIW, This summer I submitted a sample of bees to CHBRC from a hive in this area which was, IMHO, one of the three "hottest" hives I have ever run across in my 35 years of mainland US bee experience. They were on the attack before the cover was removed, they followed a good 100 + yards (until we got into a garage) and w/o my PPE I would have been a pin cushion in seconds, the backs of my hands certainly were. The sample came back 100 % EHB based on morphometrics. I assume Mona is testing multiple individuals from the sample, using "classical morphometrics", which involves more than wing venation, and not just a simple FABIS. For the record they were queen right, no obvious disease problems and were not "runny" on the comb, just "meaner than seven devils". I have experienced AHB or EHB but nothing in between. I can't say what "EHB" with a "traveling salesman" or two in the recent family tree are like but I'm sure I am going to know sooner rather than later. The two behaviors that have impressed me, personally, the most when dealing with "pure Central American AHB" are the bees bouncing like hail off your veil and the "runniness(sp)". The first frame out is for all intents and purposes "bee free", they are either in the air or have run back into the hive as the frame is removed. When you get a second or third frame out, with bees attached, they run to the lowest edge of the frame and "Festoon(sp)" until they drop off like "bunches of grapes". On the plus side, checking comb, brood, stores, etc. is a snap if you can see through the "guys" crawling on your veil looking for access to your eyes and nostrils. It will be interesting to see if "pure USofA AHB" act the same. On another note, this list is international, it helps place things in context if you mention where you are talking about. As a former postal worker I feel I should point out that USA don't work. Besides the USofA there is also the UofSA not to mention Usa, a town in Japan that did quite an export trade at one point in time. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:53:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Unfortunate beekeeping practices In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > While I admit migratory beekeepers have to 'make a living', and pollination >is necessary, who gave migratory beekeepers the right to assess monetary >damage on the rest of us? We should all be help responsible for our actions, >but this tiny group is not self-policing and is likely to continue their >unfortunate practices without penalty. > > Some are not, but most are responsible. I think a lot of the problem is that they want to do the right thing, but economics tends to blind them a bit, or at least obscure their sight and judgment. When you are told by the powers that be that there is no AHB in FL and you have aggressive hives, do you send samples of those colonies to confirm they are EHB? I would not. After all, I have had aggressive colonies (but not like the ones I have seen in Maine recently). It is sort of like what happened to me recently. I picked up a bug when visiting PA, which I though was nothing more than a sore throat, and carried it back to Maine. It was a nice, contagious bronchial infection which I kindly shared with many others. I knew I had a problem and did not intentionally spread it. I was not self-policing since there was no way I would stay in PA. After all, it was only a sore throat. Had I gone to a doctor, I might have learned what it was, but I still would have gone back to Maine. The other problem is that, unfortunately, some commercial beekeepers are not always good at identifying problems. They (and this has happened to inspectors, some of whom are less experienced that the ones they are inspecting) might miss a problem completely, or see one when it is something completely different. We have a host of migratory beekeepers here in Maine that both come from the South to pollinate as well as those who summer here and winter in FL. They rely on Tony Jadczak to give them an accurate assessment of the condition of their colonies, and he does. I have been privileged to go with him on inspections of out-of-state pollinators as well as in-state commercial operations and hobby beekeepers. The level of competence of beekeepers runs the gamut of totally clueless to informed, but even the informed learn from him. One reason is, he has seen it all and can identify a problem quickly. Most of the rest of us see the same problems infrequently. I am looked at by other beekeepers as an "expert" but when I am with Tony, I realize that I am a rank amateur. I can look at a frame of bees and see a couple of things while he will point out ten to me that, once I see them, are obvious. Based on the 'teaching lessons" he gives to commercial beekeepers, they are in the same category. They want to do the right thing, but are not up to the task. Finally, the worst offender I have seen who spread disease and mites was not from migratory beekeepers but a local beekeeper. Like Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us." Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:51:23 -0500 Reply-To: davehamilton@alltel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: DaveHamilton Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast In-Reply-To: <019801c5b9df$ac562720$0a00000a@atxmicro> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In all this discussion of AHB we should remind the less experienced that sometimes you just get "those hives" .. I tell my wife they must belong to her since they are so eager to see me. Most likely an aggressive hive just needs a new queen or one less skunk .. Look for the simple things before you start thinking we have AHB in Nebraska. I can't believe this whole discussion grew out of a single message that someone's one hive of bees had a 13% chance of being Africanized. Dave Hamilton -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.25/102 - Release Date: 9/14/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:28:24 -0400 Reply-To: beegood@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Unfortunate beekeeping practices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I didn't expect to create such a storm, but the discussion here and under *= AHB=20 in the Northeast* shows a lot of thought, and I have certainly learned. But with all this attention, I do realize I have failed to state (again)= =20 that I do not mean to denigrate all migratory beekeepers. Some of those I= =20 know are straight, honest and extremely knowledgable. Some are 'bent', do= =20 not subscribe and read either magazine and would not think of attending a= =20 technical seminar. Whatever technical knowledge they have comes from other= =20 beekeepers. I only know 15-20 migratory beekeepers so cannot very well=20 generalize my experience to all. Nonetheless, I do get tired of hearing 'get used to it, because of=20 pollination needs we have to put up with these conditions', and I know very= =20 well that we don't have enough Tony J's to go around and the migratory=20 beekeeping industry is essentially uncontrolled and unpoliced and is likely= =20 to stay that way. BTW, I also happen to feel that the migratory beekeeping= =20 industry *should be* uncontrolled and unpoliced, unless it is through an=20 organization formed by themselves. There are some areas (most areas?) where= =20 the government has no business. As to controlling behavior through the threat of lawsuits...don't fool=20 yourselves. The vast majority of migratory beekeepers that I know don't hav= e=20 anything worth suing for. A modest home, some equipment, and some beehives.= =20 Maybe $1 million in insurance, but most likely that only applies to product= =20 liability. But maybe it is all under the mattress? I happen to be one of those not overly concerned about AHB in the=20 Northeast. As my beekeeping operation has grown I have moved yards from=20 suburban areas to farm areas; the more remote the better. While this moving= =20 has been to improve honey yields, there is an added benefit in being away= =20 from human populations. That said, I still 'object' to the fact that I will= =20 likely have to adapt to conditions that would not exist if migratory=20 operations were to go away. And yes, crops would still get pollinated as th= e=20 fees would skyrocket and beekeepers would keep year-round populations=20 because it would be economic to do so. In fact, that is the situation in=20 most countries and our huge migratory system has only been possible because= =20 of cheap fuel. But that is another subject... Lloyd=20 --=20 Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:40:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Tremblay Hugo (DREST) (Chicoutimi)" Subject: AFB and fall treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings, I am thinking about oxytetracycline treatments for hives that shows AFB in late summer/fall. For what I can find in literature, it is recommended to give 3 treatments of oxytetracycline in fall, and some more the following spring, alongside with shaking bees and destroying infected material. But given that in the north we feed a lot of sugar syrup to our hives in fall in order to have them overwinter with sufficient provisions for the 6-7 months of winter, how effective is really the treatment ? I mean, by giving OT in syrup (or by dusting), we want the bees to give it to the larvae while feeding them. But in fall, when we feed 5 to 8 gallons of syrup to the bees, how can we be sure that the OT will reach the brood before it becomes inactive in the syrup. I tend to think that the little volume of syrup with OT in it will be stored with the rest of the provisions and not readily be fed to the brood. Assuming that I am right, it would be better to treat at the same day you take off the last honey supers, before feeding the gallons of syrup for their winter stores. But if you want to treat 3 times, waiting 5 to 10 days between each treatment, yoou wont be able to feed the bees before 2-3 weeks, a time that we cannot afford up North. So bearing with this idea, should it be advisable to treat just once in fall, the day you take off the last honey super, but a couple of days before feeding syrup to the bees, than treating 3 times the next spring, when there is little nectar, so the OT would reach the brood easily ? Your comments would be appreciated Thanks Dr Hugo Tremblay, m.v. Jonquière, Québec -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:44:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I can't believe this whole discussion grew out of a single message that someone's one > hive of bees had a 13% chance of being Africanized. More was made of less than that! The original assertion that started this whole discussion was Lloyd's assertion, "and now (here in the northeast) Africanized bees." By his own admission, "anecdotal information." I learned long ago not to try to sway Lloyd in his convictions, and when he states "I, for one, believe they were Africanized bees" I am positive Lloyd believes he was beset upon by Africanized bees in upstate New York. At the same time, I can observe that to the best of my knowledge there have been no confirmed cases of AHB in this area (Lloyd and I keep bees in the same vicinity geographically speaking). I have heard stories from beekeepers in this area of some really hot hives. I have one myself, from about a decade ago. Bees attacked en masse whenever I worked the hive, they chased me out of the yard and followed my for over 1/4 mile. I finally split the hive 3 ways to lessen populations until I could find and dispatch the offending queen and requeen all 3 splits. Hot hive problem solved. If I had it all to do over again I would (as Bob Harrison suggested) simply kill the offending hive and restock it; less time, fewer stings, calmer hive sooner than it took the three nasty splits to calm down, an overall better solution. But I digress. Lloyd's declaration of Africanized bees in upstate New York was speculation that has almost immediately become bigger than life. There is no substantiation, although substantiation usually occurs long after the fact (witness how long it took Florida to admit established AHB populations). There may indeed be AHB in upstate NY. They may have arrived in the 70's! I had a hive back then, queen came from a breeder in Texas (perhaps the same breeder Tim referred to) where all the counties around the breeder are confirmed Africanized. I was a newbie back then and my solution was to simply avoid that hive. I tried to kill them off over winter by leaving the top off the hive. Surprisingly the hive over wintered! Were they AHB? Who can say? Some might speculate that true AHB would not have survived an exposed winter. Perhaps so. Speculate away. I never purchased queens or bees from that part of Texas again. Today I'd simply kill the hive, sooner than late! r, and restock it. In all these discussions, the point I keep hearing is there is no reason to tolerate nasty bees. The sooner a nasty hive can be addressed the better. The longer nasty bees are tolerated the more likely it is that the nasty bees will beget more nasty bees! Whether bees are "officially" identified as AHB, be it morph metrically of by DNA analysis, is really moot. It's is highly probably that AHB are being and have been distributed throughout the US far longer than anyone realizes. It is inevitable that package bees, migratory beekeeping, and open mated queens coming from areas where AHB have become established will spread AHB genes. INEVITABLE! The best approach to address the problem is first and foremost, do not tolerate nasty bees. Don't look the other way or ignore the problem, doing so only allows the problem to get worse. Buying bees and queens from non-Africanized suppliers is a good option although island states and countries will never be able to meet the demand. Instrumentally inseminated queens offer known results, although the cost of such queens is prohibitive. Learning II techniques may be a sound investment for entrepineurial beekeepers. Take home message? Constant vigilance! Aaron Morris - thinking Mad Eye Mooney! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 17:28:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: AHB Questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter McMahon wrote: > I have had no exposure to any other honeybee > species and can therefore only comment on the AM Capensis.I find all the > hype around your AHB a bit disconcerting and a bit exaggerated as I have > not found the bees to particularly aggressive. Peter AHB is a cross with scutellata, not capensis. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:29:29 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland & Dorothy Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The discussion(s) of 'hot' bee colonies brought back memories of years ago when beekeepers talked about the fiesty character of what they called "Black Germans." Haven't heard that term used lately. Anybody remember hearing that? I had a few 'hot' hives over the years. I well remember one at an outyard that were much more agressive than others, but not to the extent being described - such as coming out unprovoked. But I always made a point to work that one last. I went with the Bee Inspector and his helper for an inspection, and put a pair of gloves in my coveralls pocket. They razzed me about the gloves, but I just shrugged and followed them. I suggested that they start from the opposite end of row from the 'hot' one. No problems until they lifted the cover on the last one, and then they learned why I had my gloves. They beat a hasty retreat, and said I could close it up! Yes, I did clear up the problem, But that hive was a good honey producer. Leland Hubbell -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:50:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Comb Orientation in feral hives In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050914073638.01c4f418@mail.keyrelevance.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In my previous posts to this subject, I ventured the opinion that two colonies had oriented their comb in a North-South direction. One colony was in a wall parallel to the siding which happened to allow a wide comb between two studs (2x4 construction), but the other was about a dozen plates 3" wide parallel to the stud. Both colonies oriented their comb from North to South. Today I tore out another colony from the wall of a house. The bees entered from the top (a few shingles were crooked), came through the attic, then descended down into the wall cavity. We removed the inside sheet rock and the combs ran parallel to the sheet rock. This orientation would be my choice had I been a bee. Parallel to the wall board gives wide (14") sheets of comb. Coincidentally, the comb also ran North-South. The studs were about 14" apart and the comb ran about six feet long from the top sill, with two plates of comb, built between two studs. It was beautiful. I never paid any attention to comb orientation before. I was thinking that bees build and orient their combs so they can have wide combs. More and more I'll keep an eye on this. BTW, the wall was a second story home, the bees entered the corner of the roof on the Northwest corner. The wall was quite shaded by tall trees. I'm still wondering if orientation is also a factor of sunlight. If I had to venture a guess, based on what the homeowner told me, this colony was an early swarm this year. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:56:30 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Maurice Organization: prive Subject: Re: Aggressive bees Comments: To: lhhubbell@JOHNSTOWN.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See: http://www.kentuckypress.com/081312350Xexcerpt.cfm and you will find American's History and Bees Greetings Maurice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leland & Dorothy Hubbell" To: Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:29 PM Subject: [BEE-L] Aggressive bees > The discussion(s) of 'hot' bee colonies brought back memories of years > ago when beekeepers talked about the fiesty character of what they > called "Black Germans." Haven't heard that term used lately. Anybody > remember hearing that? > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:09:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Hot Protective clothing MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Like to work your bees in a 'T' shirt and veil with invisible (to people) and hardly ever get stung? At the same time do a favor to your skin with nutrients and limited sun protection? Easy! Grind up some hard propolis, in the coffee grinder, to a powder and mix with some good olive oil. Place in a warm environment. The propolis will not dissolve but nutrients and odor (pleasant by the way) will leach out in a few days. Rub some of this solution on your exposed extremities and voila, lots of protection. One need not apply enough to feel greasy or look oily. This is adsorbed quite quickly by the skin. If one prefers a cream or bar form just ad to some melted bees wax. It has been said beeswax has a sun screen factor of 15. I'm assuming this is for a thin film? I have used both for more than 20 years, work 200 hives more frequently than I would like (mite Control) in the above described attire. I probably am not quite as rough with the bees as some of the commercial guys but On the rare occasions I have put on the armor I wouldn't have it any other way. On many occasion a ticked off bee will jump on exposed skin and stop cold as if it was really puzzled, almost humorous. Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH 03051 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:23:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Africanized bees in N.E. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spears story I believe is a precursor to what we will be hearing more of. We northeasterners have been spared this fate probably about as long as Mother Nature will allow. Although this strain of bees ma not survive the winters it is more than likely one of us will sooner or later come across a swarm hanging somewhere or nested. This might be a good time for a quick primer on how to exterminate a nasty hive without messing up the equipment. I can think of one or two ways of doing it but would like to hear from those with experience. Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH 03051 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:57:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: AHB's Or Hot Bees? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Who needs them. Why cant a beekeeper do away with a hot hive irrespective of the race? Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH 03051 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:02:59 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: AHB's Or Hot Bees? In-Reply-To: <00b801c5ba5c$c7a5b310$6500a8c0@BLINE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Who needs them. Why cant a beekeeper do away with a hot hive irrespective of the race? You can. The point is to send a copious alcohol preserved sample to the labs so AHB can be tracked, that's all. For you and me this means nothing as far as that we just have HOT bees, but its important for the researchers to be able to track the progress of the spread if there is one. You don't even have to request results back if you don't want them, but I would still encourage beekeepers to send samples to the labs. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, Florida USA Davenport, Iowa USA http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ mailto:scot.mcpherson@gmail.com . ` , ` ' .,';`,. ``. '. _/^\_ :;.,';`'.,` `., ' '`, /_____\ .:.,"'` /\_____/\ .,:`'" \###/.,';` -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:08:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's not PC. ...Or is it OK in bees? AFAIK, all bees sting, and, as I asked before -- with no response -- is there really any proof of greater human mortality after AHB arrival? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:14:39 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: "AHB" in Albany NY area In-Reply-To: <20050915.094957.-302155.1.beerip@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> The sample came back 100 % EHB based on morphometrics. I assume Mona is testing multiple individuals from the sample, using "classical morphometrics", which involves more than wing venation, and not just a simple FABIS. <<< Understand that FABIS is utterly outmoded with the onset and increased popularity of small cell beekeeping and with the increasing observation that most feral (I mean by this in the wild and not managed by beekeepers) populations have a trend to move towards small cell sizes on their own accord. Most of us who catch swarms and feral colony removals measure and track the cell structures of their naturally built combs. In my case, almost all of my swarm captures and the few colony removals I performed resulted in median cell size smaller than managed small cell colonies. I do not use foundation in any of my hives whether used for swarm/removed colony installs or splits and packages and the cores of all of these hives measure cell sized far below the 4.9 requirement for small cell beekeeping. My most successful hives in fact have cell sizes between 4.6 and 4.8mm measured 10 cells in all three planes. A few I must admit have 5.1mm sized brood nests, but 4 out of 48 hives is a signifacant minority. I am not arguing anything here about the benefit of small cell management, I simply wish to point out the outmoding of FABIS which relies almost entirely on gross morphemetrics based on assumptions in cell size. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, Florida USA Davenport, Iowa USA http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ mailto:scot.mcpherson@gmail.com . ` , ` ' .,';`,. ``. '. _/^\_ :;.,';`'.,` `., ' '`, /_____\ .:.,"'` /\_____/\ .,:`'" \###/.,';` -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 04:36:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > is there really any proof of greater human mortality after AHB arrival? I should add, "in the United States of America, so far". allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 09:48:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re-examination of morphometric methods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Peter asked... > Can you give any more details of the purpose and scope of the > re-examination? There are a number of issues that need addressing, they result from an examination of the mathematics regarding the errors in plotted points used in adjacent measurements. I am not talking about simple systems with limited parameters, but large analyses that use forty or more wing points as well as many other body measurements. The advent of scanner plotting also introduces variance in the way points are determined... Try using several 'automated' systems and each can give different answers. The point that Allen raises about the certainty of the parameters that are considered accurate, is valid for strains and races that are 'modern', but in the case of the dark european bee, we do have samples going back hundreds of years and the DNA results are enabling fine tuning to be done on data that was derived empirically. > the increasing observation that most feral (I mean by this in the wild and not > managed by beekeepers) populations have a trend to move towards small cell sizes Scott raises small cell observations, but I think this is more to do with a shift in the background of feral bees towards africanised survivor strains, than a lack of quality or accuracy in the original data or FABIS methodology. Regards & best 73s Dave Cushman G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/ http://www.dave-cushman.net/ Temporary Set Up -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 05:01:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/09/2005 05:02:34 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: Understand that FABIS What is FABIS? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 05:06:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AFB and fall treatment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/09/2005 05:02:34 GMT Standard Time, Hugo tremblay writes: For what I can find in literature, it is recommended to give 3 treatments= of oxytetracycline in fall, and some more the following spring, alongsid= e with shaking bees and destroying infected material. But...... Which makes me glad that here in the UK the treatment for AFB is to dig a pit in which to burn and bury the entire contents of the hive and then to scorch the inside of the hive with a blow torch. Crude but effective and AFB is nowadays a rarity. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 06:47:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Beekeepers in KY In-Reply-To: <003d01c5ba63$78b23240$3fa02fd1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to visit with beekeepers in the Cadiz, KY area will be in the area Sept 18 to 23 Call 337 298 6261 my cell. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:06:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: FABIS and "small cells" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is my understanding that the FABIS result is based on the ratio between a number of key veins and is independent of actual wing size. Can anyone in the know comment on this? Is Scot Mc Pherson telling us that "small cells results in bees indistinguishable from AHB? I don't think that is what he really meant and I, for one, am here to doubt it. Calling Beltsville, Weslaco, Tucson are there any USDA lurkers out there? After all you guys came up with FABIS. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:32:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Understand that FABIS ... > What is FABIS? http://www.google.com/search?hl=&cat=&meta=&num=&ie=utf-8&q=FABIS+%22Honey+bee%22 allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:09:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Allen Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there an easy, safe, way to kill AHB without contaminating comb? I keep bees in South Texas. This area has a strong AHB population. I am able to keep hives gentle thru aggressive requeening, but occasionally get a hive that has turned to the dark side. Several people on this topic have suggested killing the AHBs and repopulating the hive with "good bees." I prefer this method over trying to spit/requeen an AHB colony. I currently use soap and water but I often get a face full of bees when attempting to open the hive up to spray them. I believe in my state it is not practice to get a pesticide applicators license. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:39:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Euthanizing a hive (was AHB in the Northeast) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many have asked for a method to euthanizing a hive that will not = contaminate honey and combs. I have never had combs or honey tested for = residues after the moethod I'm about to describe, but I have restocked = the equipment and the new stock did well as far as I could determine. =20 The method I use if sulfur fumes. I get powdered sulfur from a garden = supply store (sulfur is user to control balck spot on rose bushes). I = mix the powdered sulfur with my smoker fuel, and the resulting smoke = kill the bees in the hive. Tape up all cracks/bentillation holes, = reduce the entrance, blow copious amounts of smoke into the hive, seal = the entrance entirely, wait 24hours. =20 Not a pleasant task, but it does the trick and the equipment can be = reused. =20 WARNING: mix the sulfur with your smoker fuel. DO NOT dump powdered = sulfur into a lit smoker (unless you like the no eyebrows look). =20 Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:10:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5F6D1328 At 10:09 AM 9/16/2005, you wrote: >Is there an easy, safe, way to kill AHB without contaminating comb? How about covering the hive with a large garbage bag (or perhaps several garbage bags or plastic sheeting taped together), then piping in carbon dioxide. In short turn it just knocks them out temporarily (It's used for instrumental insemination), but if keep inclosed with the CO2 for 20-30 minutes it should do them in. No need to open the hive and it probably can be done with minimal disturbance after dark. -Tim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.0/103 - Release Date: 9/15/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:55:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: Euthanizing a hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another method... 1. Remove honey supers during the day 2. In the evening, after all foragers have returned, block entrance and tape large holes 3. Mix 2 cups liquid detergent with 5 gallons water 4. Remove cover and slowly pour 4 of the 5 gallons of soapy warer solution into hive between all frames, replace cover. 5. Wait 10 minutes, remove cover and douse any remaining bees with remaining water 6. Rinse frames with fresh water to remove any soapy water, and dead bees, air dry. 7. Reuse equipment when dry. 8. Equipment ready the next day, Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:30:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Churchill Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050916110626.0632d698@mail.watchtv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dry ice can also be used to perform the same task: 1) seal the entrance/tape up holes, 2) add an empty hive body on top of the hive. 3) Place a block of dry ice on top of an inner cover (with hole[s]), and 4) place the outer cover on top. 5) wait The CO2 is heavier than air, so will drift down through the hive, suffocating the bees. Haven't tried it myself, but have heard that it works. Mike >At 10:09 AM 9/16/2005, you wrote: > >>Is there an easy, safe, way to kill AHB without contaminating comb? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:43:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Allen & All, > proof of greater human mortality > That should be per capita or per thousands of persons and pre varroa. It would be interesting to see if there are any significant differences to before and after. . .. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 13:11:02 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland & Dorothy Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: Euthanizing a hive -sulphur MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: WARNING: mix the sulfur with your smoker fuel. DO NOT dump powdered sulfur into a lit smoker (unless you like the no eyebrows look). 2nd WARNING: Don't breath the fumes! I think that was well implied, but - well, you never know. Back in the days when rural people kept a few chickens, and they roosted in trees, a can with burning sulphur on a long pole stuck up under the chicken's head was used to 'silently' drop a chicken out of the tree. Bee careful! And Thanks, Aaron. Leland Hubbell -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:26:49 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Euthanizing a hive (was AHB in the Northeast) In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921018B0B47@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am posting this for safety, I am not advocating euthenasia NOR sulphur as safe in the long term for beekeeping. I am posting this to add to the safety of those people who will choose to use suplhur for euthenasia despite the fact that it is a long term contaminent of woodenware. I would prefer that the beekeeper requeen and be patient leaving the hive alone for the 6-8 weeks needed for workforce replacement. Even though euthenasia might be 'easier', a lost colony is a lost resource. Waiting 8 weeks is a lot less than waiting for a repopulated hive to build back up. That said, Another source of sulphur is coopers (barrel makers), and winemaking supply shops. Sulphur is used by winemakers to treat barrels prior to long periods of inactivity. They can come in coil form similar to bug coils which are lit and placed in the bottom of the barrel (with a dish to catch the resinous ashes which can add a noxious element to any wine stored in the barrels). To use this, seal hive. place an empty chamber above the brood nest, a dish on top of frames, coil in dish and replace cover. In the morning all the bees will be dead. The hive will be stinky for a while, but will be usable. It is safer to the beekeeper than powdered sulphur which if mishandled can do more than burn your eyebrows. You can asphixiate yourself, and if somehow the smoker gets clogged while burning can explode and injury you. Sulphur is not a normal fuel, it won't go out if you don't keep pumping, and it requires much less oxygen than cellulose based fuels (burlap, paper, wood). Sulphur isn't merely flammible, its an explosive. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, Florida USA Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:41:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Addison McMurtry Subject: Re: Euthanizing a hive (was AHB in the Northeast) In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921018B0B47@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Aaron Morris wrote: > Many have asked for a method to euthanizing a hive > that will not contaminate honey and combs. An alternative, less stinky method would be to seal the hive, slide several chunks of dry ice (solid CO2)into the hive under the inner cover or on the bottom board, and re-cover. The sublimated CO2 wil kill the bees. -Lee ______________________________________________________ Yahoo! for Good Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 13:04:47 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: FABIS and "small cells" In-Reply-To: <20050916.081858.-111237.1.beerip@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave and Rip and all, First we need to understand that FABIS is not a final determination, it is a field method of determining the probability of Africanization. I never said that small cell bees and AHB are indistinguishable from one another, but that FABIS testing is not longer able to make this distinction. The reason it is unable to make this distinction is because of the gross (def. in oppposition to fine (ex. Gross motor skills vs. fine motor skills)) morphological measurements that are made and it relies entirely on assumptions based on cell size. When the Lusby's were doing their small cell research, they settled upon 5.0mm (point to point) top tolerance cell size for the size of their foundation. Although the research was a general success, I believe it was 8 ( 1991 ???) years later that their operation crashed because broad spectrum (meaning not just varroa but also trachael and other mites) loads and accompanying secondary diseases crippled the largest portion of their operation, and the Lusby's began researching and retooling again for 4.9mm as a top tolerance for cell size. The USDA told the Lusby's they could not go below 5.0mm because EHB would become indistinguishable from AHB in the field (ex. FABIS). This doesn't make AHB indistinguishable from EHB, it simply means they are indistinguishable using field measurements. Regarding the trend towards small cell of feral populations of bees. The assertion that this trend is due to africanization is an unfounded and resulting from a lack of exposure to the proper research material. I certainly don't blame for the misunderstanding, but it is a misunderstanding. When one does the research one finds all the information, it (the data) demonstrates the artificial nature of large cell beekeeping and the century long trend of artificial enlargement. Now keeping in mind I have just moved from Florida to Iowa, most of my antique books are still in boxes in the attic and unaccessible at this time, and I appoligize for the lack of SPECIFIC references, but I can still recall the general references and I invite everyone to look it up for yourselves. Many of the references can be found at the Cornell web library if I recall correctly. Francis Huber in the 1800s took measurements of feral colonies of bees. The important measurement he took was the point-to-point distance between the midribs (natural foundation) of combs. He measured 1.25 inches (32mm) point-to-point. In our large cell beehives we space our bees to 1.375 inches (35mm). This may not seem so very much, but consider in a standard 10 frame langstroth-hoffman hive, if we accurately shave off that .125 inch (3mm) of each frame we can fit an eleventh comb into the chamber. This is also the documented distance measured in AFB colonies. This shorter distance also displays practical evidence that it aids the bees in drawing small cell. As most people know my operation is totally foundationless. I do not use foundation at all of any size whether small OR large cell, and this provides a foundation for some education in natural comb structure and broodnest management. I have had the opportunity to see what bees do on their own. I have had the opportunity to see what the bees will do given certain tools. Specifically I have watched the bees build comb in the top bar hives and seen first hand what the natural trend is. I used topbars with a comb guide, which is an angle cut into the bar at both sides to make a bevel in the center of the bar. I have used bevels of varying angles until I have to agree with the rest of TBH experimentors that a sharper angle is better than shallower angles, and here is why. When using shallow angles, the bees have less encouragement to build the midrib of the comb at the center of the bar. I have used bars of varying widths, but settled upon two distinct sizes for the two basic functions of a comb, brood and honey. While finding the perfect size and playing with topbar sizes, I used for the brood nest topbars cut between 31mm - 35mm based on research of center to center measurements between midribs. I have installed package bees from both large and small cell sources AND I have caught swarms and removed colonies that I can certify were not first generation swarms from a managed colony, though I cannot assert they were not second or third generation swarms. When installing large cell bees and watching their progress on 35mm topbars, they cheat towards a shorter broodnest than the standard 35mm. The combs did not remain centered and the further away from the entrance the comb was, the closer the comb was to the entrance in relation to the comb guide center. In other words, the bees cheated towards the small. Large cell bees when installed on 31mm topbars also cheated but cheated away from the entrance, or cheated slightly larger. When measured the typical spacing hovered around 33mm measured as total cheating distance on the last brood nest bar (first brood cycle) divided by the number of bars in the nest. i.e. the 6th bar in the brood nest was approximately 6mm off center. The sizes of the core brood nest cells in these hives was 5.0mm at the smallest and 5.2mm at the largest. Doing the same thing over again ni a fresh hive with fresh woodenware (not cleaned), shaking these very same colonies of bees into a new hive with 32mm bars instead of 35mm, the bees cheated towards larger again, BUT not as much, they cheated slightly larger, but remained relatively centered and the combs were off by 2mm as far back as 8-10 bars (keep in mind the cluster is larger and akin to a 6lb package). The cell sizes of these bees were 5.0-5.1 mm still without foundation. Of the small cell packages I purchased from buckeye bee in Ohio, these bees I am pretty certain were not entirely regressed but in the process of regression. These bees although did build on center with 32mm top bars, built cell sizes of 4.9-5.1 mm, which surprised me. On 2nd shakedown these bees built 4.9mm-5.0mm cell in the core nest. Of the swarms and colony removals I caught, all of these bees built comb centered on 32mm bars without any cheating. The cell sizes of these bees measure at 4.6-4.8mm with no patches of brood nest comb measuring larger than 5.0mm and these cells are strictly at the edges of the combs and are now more often filled with pollen, water or staging honey and not brood. Brood seems to remain in all of my mature hives to snake through the nest in the bottom centers of the comb with little brood close to the edges. Non of my 48 hives show AHB qualities, and 4 of them still have the original queens bought from the breeder. The purposed of the FABIS test was quite literally to distinguish the small cell nature of AHB vs. managed EHB colonies. Small cell beekeeping AND the observations of beekeepers who measure feral combs and measure what their feral bee colonies do when installed in foundationless equipment show that AHB and EHB are very much indistinguishable using FABIS field measurements. A more sophisticated measurement based on fine morphometry and or genes is required to distinguish the difference. At one time it was possible to tell the difference by coloration alone, this is no longer possible even though it was very possible in the past. Why therefore is it so hard to understand that FABIS is no longer a valid field test either with the knowledge that feral EHB really do tend towards small cell. The FABIS measurement clearly relies on the assumption that EHB are being kept on large cell foundation and clearly relies on the fact that AHB display small cell characteristics. Based on my own opservations and based on the observations of every single beekeeper whom bothers to observe and report measurements of natural comb, I assert that feral EHB populations of 3rd or higher generation ALWAYS (and I put my reputation on that statement) display small cell characteristics and are indistinguishable from AHB when using size for qualification. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, Florida USA Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:25:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know what the situation is in the States, but in the UK they now sell sulphur strips for fumigating boxes of comb to kill wax moth. One of those would finish off a colony pretty quick. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:24:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050916110145.01d09900@mail.keyrelevance.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5F6D1328 At 12:30 PM 9/16/2005, you wrote: >Dry ice can also be used to perform the same task: Excellent Idea. Great if you don't already have CO2 tanks around for II or welding. My parents use to get a block of dry ice for their cooler when they went on long road trips, but lately it's been hard to find (all the places they use to get it have dissapeared). However, I noticed a few weeks ago it's available at the local Meijer. Does anyone know if dry ice is cold enough to do hygienic testing? I know liquid nitrogen is typically used, but it can be hard to get. -Tim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.0/103 - Release Date: 9/15/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:52:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Hoffman Subject: Re: Euthanizing a hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is a part of a message I posted recently to the Montgomery County (Maryland) Beekeepers Association email list describing my having to kill hives because of AFB: >Maryland procedures mandate the destroying of the bees in AFB infected >hives. I did research and satisfied myself that killing the hives was the >only solution. > >On Sept 5 the apiary inspector and I met in the late afternoon when most >of the bees had returned to the hive. We did the hives one by one. We >taped a garbage bag to the front opening of the hive and sealed up any >holes. He sprayed Resmethrin, a pyrethroid it takes a license to use, on >the top bars of the hive from a spray can. After about 20 minutes most of >the bees were dead and had come out of the hive into the garbage bag. The >rest were in a mass on the bottom board. We took off the upper boxes and >pushed the ones on the bottom board into the garbage bag and sealed up the >hive with duct tape so no bees could get in. He squashed the clump of >latecoming bees that had gathered above the entrance. > >He pointed out that the wax moths had already started attacking the upper >dry frames, so the next day I put PDB in each of the hives. If I had it >that evening I could have put it in then. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:52:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Small Hive Beetle Lifecycle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone have info or a source of a handout on the lifecyle of the Small Hive Beetle? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:10:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Ruzicka Subject: Re: formic acid In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hugo wrote: So I wonder for how long can a beekeeper keep his formic acide before it looses its qualities (given that it is kept in a tight container) ? Go to Univar Canada. The shelf life is one year. I have had acid for 3 years and it is still okay. Even when open it will evaporate and lose concentration until it reaches 72% then both water and acid molecules evaporate equally. It does survive freezing. The buzzing of bees is caused by overdose. You did not cause it. Read the handbook on formic acid available from www.mitegone.com . Bill Bill's Honey Farm - Home of the MiteGone Formic Acid Treatment Kelowna, British Columbia, CANADA, V1V 2B6 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 19:21:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Euthanizing a hive In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050916154409.065d0730@pop.glue.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:52 PM 9/16/2005, you wrote: >>Maryland procedures mandate the destroying of the bees in AFB infected >>hives. >>He pointed out that the wax moths had already started attacking the upper >>dry frames, so the next day I put PDB in each of the hives. Do you mean AHB (Africanized Honey Bees) or AFB (American Foul Brood)? If it is AFB as you state, why are you concerned about saving the frames. They likely pose more threat to your other hives than the bees themselves did. -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 21:22:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Unfortunate beekeeping practices Hi Guys, I don't know much about the AHB's in the northeast. But, from personal experience, they are unlike any bee I've encountered in 35 years of commercial beekeeping. I just can't image any beekeeper wanting the liability for a single hive of them in any environment. And I know that those same regulators who will quaranteen a whole semi-load of bees for a single fire ant don't care how many of them are hauled FROM California. I've unloaded several semis from California with enough fire colonies living between the hives and the straps, to leave the entire flatbed covered with stay fire ants. Hummmm :>)))) What could be next? Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 00:06:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle Lifecycle In-Reply-To: <20050916215225.35068.qmail@web32114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed google on small hive beetle and youll find out all you want. dmf -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 10:02:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle Lifecycle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mark berninghausen asked: > Does anyone have info or a source of a handout on the lifecyle of the > Small Hive Beetle? Is this helpful? http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/diseases/exoticpests/documents/SHB_factsheet.pdf Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 11:16:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: FABIS and "small cells" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scot & all > First we need to understand that FABIS is not a final > determination In fact, there is no morphometric method that in itself will give definite results... Even when the specimen is 'perfect' by morphometric methods, before you can draw any conclusions, you must take into account the bahavioural characteristics of the race or strain. Morphometry is only a guide, it is not an absolute or definitive method. > At one time it was possible to tell the difference by > coloration alone, Commonly stated, but colour is a very complicated parameter, that has some basis in race, but has other reasons as well... So colour is an indicator that cannot be relied upon (nor could it ever have been relied upon). > I assert that feral EHB populations of 3rd or higher > generation ALWAYS (and I put my reputation > on that statement) display small cell characteristics and are > indistinguishable from AHB when using size for qualification Be careful when making statements like that... I can show you colonies of a substrain of AMM that will not adopt cells smaller than 5.6 mm even after several generations of attempted regression... I do not know why, but in this area (UK midlands) a swarm left to it's own devices will produce 5.6 mm or even 5.65 mm more or less automatically. Most colonies can be regressed down to around 5.00 or 5.10, but there are some that never go below 5.6 mm. Part of the background to my statements here is that this area and several others around it, were areas where extensive large cell trials were conducted between 1960 and recent times. As well as this, some of the commercial foundation sold in this area for many years being of 5.7 mm cellsize, other foundation bought from abroad has been 5.9 mm and several beekeepers have made their own foundation using presses that were of 5.9 mm and another type of tool (Herring plates) for making home made foundation was of 5.6 mm cellsize. Regards & best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Lash up machine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 07:11:27 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast Comments: To: Tim Arheit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anything cold enough to kill the brood will do, but how to apply it wuthout physical damaging thevcaps is the impotant question, because this is the test. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 06:04:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Short life insecticide In-Reply-To: <002b01c5b972$ccfa6760$26bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: using short life insecticide Instead of using a short life insecticide (with accompanying license), could one not use starting fluid (ether) in a hive and plug entrance to kill the hive? Just a thought and awaiting criticism. Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, AL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 12:19:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Short life insecticide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > using short life insecticide > > Instead of using a short life insecticide (with > accompanying license), could one not use starting > fluid (ether) in a hive Or a halon fire extinguisher? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 09:35:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: FABIS and "small cells" In-Reply-To: <01ab01c5bb71$1046c860$0400000a@DaveCushman> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: While I have a copy of the original Fabis Paper given to me by Dr Loper, it is currently packed away while we finish up moving to new headquarters. But if memory serves me correctly, in the original Fabis text is a paragraph with a disclaimer that states that if the bees in your area are different (like your local or regional genetic pool) then you need to have data base for your own area and not use the one referenced in the text. So knowing this, does anyone here have a copy of the disclaimer wording? Also, how many states have own data bases as I am sure the upper North East or North West is far different then the bees used at Baton Rouge. Just something to think about when looking at wing veins knowing that bees change by size and latitude and altitude. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 13:53:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Using Dry Ice to do Hygienic Testing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does anyone know if dry ice is cold enough to do hygienic testing? I've been told that even liquid nitrogen doers not always kill the brood it intended to. Apparently, at some stages, brood is pretty tough. There is an optimal stage in the development that should be chosen, too, and this is one of the toughest stages to kill. I'm hoping that Jerry, the inventor of this particular technique, will be around to comment, too. If not, a BEE-L archive search will dig up lots more details. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 21:20:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Using Dry Ice to do Hygienic Testing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Does anyone know if dry ice is cold enough to do hygienic testing? There are also freezing sprays used by plumbers to freeze water pipes while they work on them. Would these do the job? Most of us do not, unsurprisingly, have a stock of liquid nitrogen! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 17:39:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: FABIS and "small cells" In-Reply-To: <01ab01c5bb71$1046c860$0400000a@DaveCushman> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: > Hi Scot & all >>I assert that feral EHB populations of 3rd or higher >>generation ALWAYS (and I put my reputation >>on that statement) display small cell characteristics and are >>indistinguishable from AHB when using size for qualification > > > Be careful when making statements like that... I can show you colonies of a > substrain of AMM that will not adopt cells smaller than 5.6 mm even after > several generations of attempted regression... Dave has an excellent paper on just that at http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/denwood.html A long time ago a post had a link to a chart of cell sizes of different races of bees in their native habitat and cell sizes were all over the place. Also, within the same race, it seems that the hotter it is the smaller bee does better and the cooler, the larger bee does better. It is interesting that the few papers I have read about AHB v EHB when they were tested under the same conditions, the AHB had lower Varroa loads because they removed twice as many "infected" pupa. Cell size did not matter. It was all hygienic behavior. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 20:06:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Euthanising a hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the UK on the occasions when it becomes necessary to kill a bad tempered hive,the usual practice is to wait until evening when the bees are all in, block the entrance then pour half a pint of petrol in the top. This is very rapid and almost humane. Do I need to add that the use of a smoker is contra-indicated when doing this? I have no idea what this does to the comb and don't care. The only safe assumption is that comb that has been bred in is contaminated to some extent and should be renewed, so this is an opportunity for doing so. It is not a waste of resources as the beeswax can be recovered and turned into value-added products. One reads tales of woe about the price of honey in the USA. What is the price of beeswax? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 20:26:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Short life insecticide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Interesting comments. My advice is for a legal approved method with no residual effects. Starting fluid has residual effects I have been told by my local auto parts store. halon fire extinguishers might have residual effects and might not. I always like Allen's input. Might be an excellent solution! My small halon cost over a $100 and gives about 9 bursts I have been told. Maybe with a hive you could get three times as many short bursts. Halon pulls the oxygen out of the air and would kill but would the effects last *long enough* to kill the whole hive. Never used in a small closed room! I like the Halon answer and might check further about residual effects. Sulfur certainly was the method of choice a hundred years ago. I believe there are better choices.Sulfur use is outlined in all the old bee books along with the cautions. Langstroth on Sulfur use from his famous book: "Bi-sulfide of carbon is an evaporating explosive substance ,which must be handled with care,but its evaporation within a closed box is sufficient to kill all living insects. A tablespoon is enough for a hive."(pg.499) Residual effects was a main reason for the dropping of its use by beekeepers on supers. Not sue about hive body comb. Dry ice is expensive and hard to find in our area. Requeen and wait 6-8 weeks as Scot suggests is an answer those commercial beekeepers which have dealt with AHb would not consider. Bad idea but many need to see for themselves. What's legal in the U.S. 1. paradichlorobenzene 2. Phosdin gas Both kill insects without a residue.Can be detected with a mass spec but very low residue is allowed in U.S. Resmethrin Can be bought from some bee supply houses and does not leave a residual effect *I have been told*. Was used by the bee inspector in the post. A can is around $20 but lasts awhile. In some states (Missouri & Kansas) can only be bought by those with a pesticide applicators license. *2 cups* soap in 5 gal. water.: What a mess to clean up. That's a lot of really soapy water! Would not be my choice! How many gallon of water would it take to remove the soap residue? For the hobby U.S. beekeeper I would wait until all the bees were in the hive, smoke and lift the lid and place para crystals on top. Close the entrance. Come back the next day and pick up the crystals which are left and return to the can for reuse. Shake out the dead bees . Let the equipment air out and then reuse! If you add a rim at the top the bees will be drawn to the top and the crystal box. Strange what the bees do but you will find the whole hive in the box of crystals if the top cardboard box within an MT super is big enough. I use the above method and has worked every time and is legal use in U.S.. Phosdin gas is faster and only takes a short burst but I have never seen used to kill hives but a U.S. legal method. Used for large containers like I use 40ft.. I prefer the crystals myself. Others use phosdin. Resmethrin is the easiest method but only legal in Missouri if you have got a pesticide license. I have been told leaves no residue but there is no tolerance for resmethrin in honey which is something worth considering. 20-30 years ago arsenic crystals were sold by bee supply house (never approved) and used to kill hives with AFB. Sulfur is used on supers today for storage in many third world countries. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 21:52:06 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Short life insecticide In-Reply-To: <002901c5bbf0$7facbfa0$1fbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> Starting fluid has residual effects I have been told by my local auto parts store. I don't know if this is the same as lighter fluid, but lighter fluid is used as a tool in book restoration because it does NOT leave a residue. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, Florida USA Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 10:23:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Using Dry Ice to do Hygienic Testing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Peter said... > Most of us do not, > unsurprisingly, have a stock of liquid nitrogen! Dry ice is not a good material for such testing. Liquid Nitrogen was chosen because of the low temperature, this enables a steep enough temperature gradient to be set up, that in turn is able to extract the heat within the brood and ensure a kill. The quantity of Liquid Nitrogen is also important... If the amount of LN is too small it will all boil off before adequate heat has been extracted and so there is a possibility of incomplete killing. Liquid Nitrogen may not be available 'off the shelf', but is the 'right' material for the job, it is also the quickest method and is least labour intensive. There are breeding groups in UK that have gone to the trouble of obtaining the Dewar flasks and supplies of LN. An alternative for hobby beekeepers is to cut a square chunk of sealed brood, transport to a domestic freezer, freeze and return to the comb, this is as near as you will get to a simpler method, but it takes time and effort and is possibly not as reliable as the standardised LN method. Regards & best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Lash up machine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 08:35:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Using Dry Ice to do Hygienic Testing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/09/05 19:37:46 GMT Daylight Time, allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM writes: <> I took part in a survey here in the UK a couple of years ago, and the instructions I was given were to cut out a 2-inch square of capped brood, and leave it in the freezer for, I think, 48 hours (I can't find the original instructions). Less than this couldn't be guaranteed to kill the brood. I'm sure somebody will put me right if my memory's at fault. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 08:44:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: FABIS and "small cells" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 17/09/05 23:39:41 GMT Daylight Time, bhfarms@SUSCOM-MAINE.NET writes: <> Unless it's a case of hygeinic behaviour being stimulated by the smaller cells. I wouldn't rule it out, though I do feel that ultimately this is the crucial thing. I constantly see capped cells being opened up and cleared out now I'm using snaler cells; I never saw it before I downsized the bees. It started quite suddenly, as soon as I changed sell size. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 08:53:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Using Dry Ice to do Hygienic Testing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doesn't PDB leave a residue in wax? A safer way of using sulphur, if there are concerns, might be to use sodium metabisulphate, used as a presevative in wine. a concentrated solution left in the roof of a sealed-up hive overnight would probably produce enough sulphur dioxide to kill them, especially if a little acid was added. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 09:24:44 -0400 Reply-To: beegood@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honey and wax prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris asked "One reads tales of woe about the price of honey in the USA.=20 What is the price of beeswax?" These are *wholesale* case quantity prices to stores, farm stands, other= =20 beekeepers, etc.: The price of 'normal' wax, meaning that made from cappings with some frame= =20 wax added in, is about $1.50 a pound (about 450 g). Wax made from cappings= =20 alone is about $2.25. Honey in 5 gallon pails (60 lbs, or about 27 kilos) is running $1.00 to=20 $2.00 a pound. Only the desperate are paying $2.00 and those with 30 or mor= e=20 pails to sell are getting right around $1.00. Honey in 600 lb. barrells (27= 3=20 kilos) is $.60 to $1.00 a pound, and those with 100 or more barrells to sel= l=20 are much more likely to get $.60 than anything higher. What I find interesting is the market for comb honey. I am having no=20 difficulty selling round sections (8-9 ounces, or 225-250 g) for $3.75-$3.8= 5=20 here on the East Coast. On the West Coast the price is about $3.00. Cut com= b=20 sections (12 or 16 ounces) are selling for $4.00-$6.00 on the East Coast.= =20 There is almost no cut comb produced on the West Coast, and it ships poorly= .=20 However, here on the EAst Coast there is a huge supply of entire wood frame= s=20 of comb honey suitable for cutting into sections as cut comb or pieces for= =20 chunk honey. These are selling for $1.50 a pound. Which is a crazy price as= =20 it is far too low. I speculate that what is going on is that the producers have no interest o= r=20 idea of how to market this, and the buyers are taking advantage. At $1.50 a= =20 pound the producers are getting just a little more than they would get if= =20 they produced extracted honey (considering the reduction in yield), but the= y=20 are saving the investment in extracting and related equipment as well as th= e=20 labor. The buyers have to invest in labor to cut, drain, freeze and package= =20 the product, plus about $.90 for the package and label. Nonetheless, they= =20 are making a far higher profit than they make on extracted honey. If you ar= e=20 a consumer, there is a real shortage of comb honey. Finally, the market for creamed or spun honey is rapidly expanding. So far= ,=20 few producers are willing (or knowledgable) to make it and fewer yet are=20 interested in marketing it. At around $35-$40 for a case of 12 one-pound=20 jars, the profits are certainly comparable to those from round section comb= =20 honey.=20 --=20 Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 09:25:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: AFB in Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was reading about an AFB outbreak in Australia http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1889 and wondering. Now that Australian bees are being imported in to the USA, with likelihood of vastly increasing imports in the coming years, how good are these bees in terms of hygienic behaviour and other AFB-resisting factors? I ask this because I have never heard anything about HYG testing in Aus, although I've asked, and the fact that the incidence of AFB is maintained at very low levels there could result in no incentive to breed in that direction. I also write from my own experience with many different importations from several suppliers Australia over the years. Although I have found the bees I have purchased from Australia to be productive and good at overwintering, I have also found some of them (the majority) to be *very* susceptible to chalkbrood. Moreover, we recently discovered a touch of AFB in some of my hives, and, guess what? They were the Australian package bee group, not the Hawaiian group. I let it go a bit to see if they cleaned it up. They definitely did not. What I'm thinking is that North American breeders and Hawaiians have been tending to watch for HYG traits and that the entire bee populations have trended towards less susceptibility, but, perhaps the Auzzies have had no such tendency. For some reason, we hear little here on BEE-L from Aus, except that occasionally, we are directed to some really excellent research or other information from down there. What do list members know about HYG and Australian bees? Are US beekeepers going to get a big surprise? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 10:57:45 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Using Dry Ice to do Hygienic Testing? Comments: To: Robert Brenchley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sulphites will leave a sodium or potassium residue. Its also quite noxious, more Noxious than burning elemental sulphur. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 11:59:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ted Hancock Subject: Re: Euthanizing a hive (was AHB in the Northeast) I don't want to pretend to be cultured enough to read books but I overheard a book tape my daughter was listening to awhile back. It was called "Diary of a Farmer's Wife" and the author was wife to an English farmer in 1793 (or thereabouts). She talked about harvesting honey by placing the skeps in a pit or hole in the ground, setting in some burning sticks soaked in sulfur, then covering the hole so the bees were killed. That particular year the husband used his wife's kitchen to prepare the sulfur sticks. In the process of doing this he spilled sulfur all over the floor as well as his hands. The wife was very vexed with him for making a mess of her kitchen and told him next year he could do that job in the barn. The next day the husband said his hands were too sore to help with the honey harvest so the wife had to do it alone. So not much has changed in the past 200 years when it comes to killing bees. However in this mordern age most men are much more sensitive to their partners' wants and needs and would never think of making a mess in his or her kitchen. Feeling very old, Ted -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:45:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Short life insecticide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Starting fluid is a mixture of ether and some oils to prevent cylinder wear. Ruary -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:51:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Euthanising a hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The petrol dissolves the wax it comes into contact with. I would not fancy using the wax for any purpose contaminated as it is from the petrol. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- > block the entrance then pour half a pint of petrol in the top. > I have no idea what this does to the comb and don't care. . > the beeswax can be recovered and turned into value-added > products. > Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 09:57:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: FABIS and "small cells" In-Reply-To: <140.4c3863b5.305ebb38@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Having read Dave Cushman's reply to Scot I find this information interesting, especially the source. It is an interesting article concerning the poor matings of queens and the possible natural reverting of the drones and queens down to smaller size. According to the article it seemed to of happened since the introduction of varroa. http://www.bbka.org.uk/news/news/bbka/queens-research-in-to-poor-mating.shtml Could this be further proof of the need of down sizing of bees for the control of varroa? But then this starts thoughts to another problem that is happening.......Since when does using small cell say, in USA mean AHB in given areas? Is it the wing vein or Scutts that were supposed to breed true? and where's the breeding true up here? and if the DNA is changing from so much small cell being around now,then the problem is disappearing as bees now become beter adjusted to handle the varroa problem. Not that life goes on.... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small cell commercial beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 13:03:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: The price of Honey. What should it be? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One of our friends from England asked about the price of wax and honey here in the US of A and Lloyd Spear answered him in detail and you can look for yourself and find out what Lloyd had to say. The question and the answer stimulated me to add this topic to the discussion since I've been wrestling with it on my own. Well not totally, my wife and I have been talking about what honey should sell for. What is a fair price to sell honey for. I'm talking about the wholesale price of buckets and jars, not what the packers are willing to let you have for your crop. If it costs you ___ dollars or cent per pound to produce your pound of honey, how much should you sell it for? What is a fair price? Fair to who? Or is that whom? Do we ask for as much as we can get? Or do we sell at a price just high enough above cost of production to get by? I imagine that the asking price is going to be different for a person trying to make a living from their bees and one who has another source of ! income to support their beekeeping habit. How many people know what it actually costs them to [roduce a pound of honey? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 13:12:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Loss of beehives due to Katrina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Do any of you folks in Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana who have the time to respond to this query have any ideas as to how many colonies of bees have been lost due to Katrina? Since many of us here in the rest of the country get our queens from the South maybe we could help out some of our brother and sister beekeepers by sending them some queens or colonies. This is something that I plan on bringing up at our winter meeting here in NY. I don't really have this idea fleshed out but I bet there is someone or lots of someones who have opinions about this idea, good or bad. What do y'all think? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 16:21:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Drones are the Key MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It is an interesting article concerning the poor matings of queens and the > possible natural reverting of the drones and queens down to smaller size. > According to the article it seemed to of happened since the introduction > of varroa. ... > Could this be further proof of the need of down sizing of bees for the > control of varroa? Where bees are left to deal with varroa on their own, the best hives with the most and best drones (not parasitized or able to thrive regardless) will, in the long run be the dominant survivors. What other characteristics are favoured is still unknown, but in the Tucson area, it is clear that -- for whatever reason -- small size seems to have been the result. In other areas, there are conflicting reports and opinions. See also: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0402A&L=bee-l&P=R866 http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0502D&L=bee-l&P=R194 allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 16:35:46 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: The price of Honey. What should it be? In-Reply-To: <20050918200321.5656.qmail@web32114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In order to really figure out what you "need" to sell honey for, what you "can" sell honey for, and when it becomes an "ultraprofitable product", you really need to do a cash flow analysis of you "business". I "can" sell honey as little as $1 and still make a fair profit if I also produce livestock. But if I sell for $5 I can do nothing else and still sit ontop of the mountain. I have yet had anyone scoff at buying fresh honey at $5, and I have sold it there when selling piece by piece, just to cover some costs, but in the end, I think most operations don't have that luxury. You see where I was keeping bees there was no locally produced organic honey, so I could get away with it AND make the consumer happy at the same time. What to price you honey at is not just an analysis of your cash flow, that's really to find out your limits to successful operation and understanding better where money goes and comes from. In order to figure out what to sell you honey at you need to do some market research, and you aren't going to get any better research than just talking to people and finding out how much people are willing to spend. It also depends on the honey, if you have special honeys then you charge more for those, and charge less for your standards. Clover is a light standard, palm is a dark standard. Goldenrod is a dark standard. Sea Grape or Mangrove is a special honey and actually has some modicum of difficulty in order to secure a crop (isolation). Acacia and Agave are special honeys. Maple honey is a special honey and ALSO is difficult to procure. Apple Blossom Honey also is a bit special. The difficulty and level of production should also effect your price. I certainly do not sell palm honey at $5 per lb, but mangrove honey that is cheap. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, Florida USA Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:52:42 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland & Dorothy Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Liquid Nitrogen sources MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman beat me to it Re: "There are breeding groups in UK that have gone to the trouble of obtaining the Dewar flasks and supplies of LN." Can't speak as to the use for bees, but - I was going to suggest contacting "dairy artificial insemination" service companies in the USA, as they use LN to keep the straws of semen frozen. Search out a dairy farm, as most large farms use the services, and can tell you how to get in touch with places that have LN. Leland Hubbell -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:57:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: The price of Honey. What should it be? In-Reply-To: <20050918200321.5656.qmail@web32114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5014902 > How many people know what it actually costs them to [roduce a pound of > honey? After being harassed by my customer, to once again lower the price of my honey, I sat down to estimate the cost of production. I've ben at this long enough to know my approximate costs for labor, fuel, insurances, etc, etc. That total, divided by my average crop, gives a close approximation of my cost per pound. Not included, are all the extra , unforeseen things that come up...from cleaning materials to un-ordinary repairs, to too many others to list. Not included is the increased price of diesel and heating fuel. I figure is costs me $.65/lb to produce honey. My customer tells me they can buy honey for $.77, bucket and delivery included, by the tractor trailer load. When questioned, they claim it to be Vietnamese. I doubt it, and feel it re-labeled Chinese, but that's another story. The truly sad part of the story is the packer price being offered to US beekeepers for US honey. The one I called is offering $.66 for white. So, with a 100,000 lb crop...considerably above my average, I can expect a profit of $1000? What a slap! Good thing my honey is white this year. They're only offering $.56 for Light Amber. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.24/101 - Release Date: 9/13/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:16:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carol Clement Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20[BEE-L]=20Loss=20of=20bee?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?hives=20due=20to=20Katrina?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there a way that beekeeping clubs in the north can specifically help beekeepers affected by Katrina? Our club would like to find a way to help, too. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:36:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The price of Honey. What should it be? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I figure is costs me $.65/lb to produce honey. >They're only offering $.56 for Light Amber. A large Kansas beekeeper said today the best offer he has had is .52 for Light amber. Would be nice if the bee magazines would list the packers which are supposedly paying a dollar a pound instead of being anonymous. Like : Dutch Gold >52-.56 a pound this month for light amber. Then the information would have a serious meaning! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:58:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The price of Honey. What should it be? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How many people know what it actually costs them to [roduce a pound of honey? Most hobby beekeepers do not have a clue as to what it costs to produce a pound of honey from their bees and why should they. Hobbies are called hobbies because they cost money most of the time! I will bet if most hobby beekeepers sold their final product for five dollars a pound (as Scot said) they still would be in the hole! I know what it costs me to produce a pound of honey as does Michael Palmer and most commercial beekeepers. A building full of honey drums this year is a serious problem as the packers are not buying. Selling a drum or two of honey to your friends, neighbors and at work for five bucks a pound is not hard. try selling a hundred drums at Five bucks a pound! I know of a beekeeper that turned down a buck fifty a pound waiting for the price to go higher a year ago! My partner and I sold every drop of our extra at a buck fifty! The merry-go-round of commercial beekeeping! Bob "Thinking of only placing one super per hive next year if the price stays down!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:19:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: The Price of Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison said that he knows what it cost him to make a pound of honey, but he didn't tell us. What's up w/ that? I don't know for sure myself, but I bet it costs me $.75/lb or more. At least it seems that way. I just can't seem to separate the costs of everything else from honey production. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:23:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FABIS and "small cells" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit .>..Since when does using small cell say, in USA mean AHB in given areas? At the Austin, Texas ABF meeting (1996?) Paul Jackson (Texas bee inspector) passed out his card with a gauge on the back. If the cell size matched the 4.9mm cell size then the hive should be considered AHB. The South Africa beekeepers on this list will tell you. 4.9mm. is the size most common with africanized bees. The foundation they buy is 4.9mm.. They will also tell you in their hives plenty of varroa can be found. Both in worker brood & drone brood. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:32:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Fw: Re: [BEE-L] Short life insecticide Comments: To: Lionel Evans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lionel" To: Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 8:11 AM Subject: Re: Re: [BEE-L] Short life insecticide > Am I wrong or did beekeepers in the northern areas in years past, not kill > hundreds of hives to extract honey and next Spring buy packages to restart > these hives? What did they use? This had to bee safe for humans and new > bees later. > > I visited an operation in Kenosha, WI. and he told me he killed 2800 each > fall, took his other 1200 to Texas for winter and raised Queens and > packages for next spring. > > Lionel Evans > North Alabama -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:11:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [BEE-L] Short life insecticide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Am I wrong or did beekeepers in the northern areas in years past, not kill hundreds of hives Several families still do but do not use an insecticide but ether sell blow bees (bees blown in other beekeepers boxes) or simply blow the bees out in the broodless period and take the equipment. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 23:09:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: robbing In-Reply-To: <000501c5bcbf$66869a80$23bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed they yard has 2 strong hives and 2 not so strong hives. i was rearranging one, looking for full combs and squashing hive beetles and the robbing started. by the time i knew it the air was full of bees and the entrances of the 2 not so strong hives was a war zone. i quickly closed the entrances of each to about a 1/2 inch opening. i hope they are able to withstand the assault. will the robbing instinct diminish as the goldenrod starts to bloom? besides the restricted entrances is there something else ishould do? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:16:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: FABIS and "small cells" In-Reply-To: <001701c5bcb0$6d724b00$14bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob: So Paul Jackson's cardboard ruler for 4.9mm sizing and S. Africa's varroa in 4.9mm, both say then we are africanized,because the scenario fits AHBs. Boy is that technical!! Yet I don't consider our bees hot or any different from what we have had over the years, though we've come thru trachael mites and varroa mites now and rebuilt our outfit back. What problem do you think will come next on the list? Any ideas? By the way, Sioux Honey is paying 1.0970 with pool one & bonus. Pool 7 (lowest) is .7065 not counting special pool and melter pool. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 23:26:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Traynor Subject: Queen breeding problems & small cell In-Reply-To: <20050918165749.88277.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: >http://www.bbka.org.uk/news/news/bbka/queens-research-in-to-poor-mating.shtml > >Could this be further proof of the need of down sizing of >bees for the control of varroa? > > > Dee I went to the link you gave above and read the article you reference very thoroughly and could not find any reference in the article to small cell. Would you please advise where in the listed article you found the small cell information? Or explain further how you may be making your own association to small cell in this case? Michael -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:58:54 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Help with Loss of beehives due to Katrina In-Reply-To: <1e0.4469e01d.305f415b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If by helping you mean specifically with beekeeping help, the best I think you can offer is labor, lumber and livestock, and perhaps donating a barrel or two of honey to beekeepers so they can sell it. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, Florida USA Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 23:45:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The Price of Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mark & All, I learned commercial beekeeping from one of the sharpest commercial beekeepers to ever play the beekeeping game. Most beekeepers repeat the same moves each season (similar to the farmer which has to take a 40 hour job in town to support his farming habit.) If you look back to my posts last spring you will see I predicted the low honey price for bulk. All the markers were in place. Honey from China was flooding the market. Packers were fixing store prices by keeping prices high even though they were buying at record low prices. Stocking up after record high honey prices with money made by buying low and selling high! Record high prices in beekeeping history are ALWAYS followed by record low prices! I chose to only produce the amount of honey needed for my markets and a backup amount. I cut the number of trips to the honey production hives. I over supered to save trips (which cost money in labor & gas). I averaged one to two hives per yard deadouts which were completely infested with wax moths but a money saving trade off. A few swarmed but swarm control cost money. I keep precise and accurate records. Last year I chased the fall honey by moving bees into the Blackwater River bottoms. Moving hives onto sunflowers. This year I will not. The reason high gas prices and low price of honey. I hope to finnish the wildflower honey by the middle of October but really not concerned as I do not need the honey and even with my cost savings procedures the honey would only bring close to my cost of production at .51 cents a pound this year. If honey was bringing top dollar I would most likely have around .65 to .75 cents a pound invested as I would be working those hives trying to get every pound of honey I could get. I have advised many a beekeeper on ways to become profitable. Think outside the box. I live in a farming area. Most those guys plant soybeans one year, corn the next and rotate . The smart farmer waits to see what the other guys plant and then plant the opposite! Watch the futures if a row cropper. Or find a niche market like bird seed sunflowers or rare seed crops. Chemical companies have made a fortune selling chemicals for Soybean Rust this year and Soybean Rust has not been found in Missouri yet! Think IPM! Not support chemical companies! Instead of honey production I made splits for California instead. Got next years foundation drawn. I have been extracting honey since early July. I have got some yards which have not had a super pulled. I am thinking of next year . The bees are feeding on those supers but I am feeding, treating & medicating my non varroa tolerant hives. I am far more concerned with the condition of my hives for next years pllination than getting extra barrels of honey. It is really great on the varroa tolerant hives to be able to leave those supers on and not worry about pulling supers and treating. Varroa tolerant bees are the only way to handle mites in my opinion! At our Midwestern meeting today the speaker (commercial beekeeper) showed a slide of a drone pupa with seven mature varroa on it and signs of PMS on *Aug. 2nd.* of this year in one of his hives. He had been using OA & formic acid for varroa control. He talked about the poor honey crop he got this year but blamed the weather. Are the weather & poor queens from the south the cause of all our beekeeping woes? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:11:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: FABIS and "small cells" In-Reply-To: <20050918165749.88277.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee > the possible natural reverting of the drones > and queens down to smaller size. I would point out that in the context of the article, the 'smallness' of the queens was considered a defect and was not attributed to any improvement in varroa tolerance. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:37:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: The price of Honey. What should it be? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I know what it costs me to produce a pound of honey as does Michael Palmer > and most commercial beekeepers. Maybe, but I never did know what it cost me to produce a pound of honey (cost of production, or COP) -- at least in the sense of having one single simple number, either before the season started, or even after the crop was sold. COP depends on many assumptions. I did, however, have an idea of a range of numbers could be used as my cost of production, depending on the purpose. I did always figure out, in advance, the *range* of probable cost. This range of numbers depended on other numbers that would never hold still. Going into a season, I would consider my expected crop yield, the costs of each expected input (expense), the value of by-products, contingencies, extraordinary gains and losses, and assign a value to my own labour and capital using current market benchmarks for small business or agriculture. I would also look at the Alberta Agriculture industry study of costs and returns (consensus data). (FWIW, that freely available Alberta data was crucially helpful to the AHPA in establishing beyond doubt that China and Argentina were dumping honey into the USA and other countries below cost of production, since I know of no other jurisdiction that compiles such data, and in such an impartial and thorough fashion). Using that, I came up with a fairly soft number that would likely pay all my bills (and not necessarily myself) that was a drop-dead number. Below that, I would be eating up my capital and going broke. Above that price, I was getting some return, and the farther above that, the better I made out, until, at some price, I was getting benchmark returns to capital and labour. In other words, I was making wages and management fees, and getting bank interest on the value of my investment. Higher than that price, I was getting a reward for taking risk (profit), and, when the price spiked, there was money (windfall profits) to save in order to weather the future price downturns that inevitably follow price spikes. Anyone who just went out and spent that windfall is currently very likely under water. Those who used the opportunity to either sell out or invest carefully in cost-saving or profit-maximizing measures and to eliminate bottlenecks in their outfit will likely last a few more years. After each season was over, I, of course, had firmer numbers and a better idea of what each pound had cost me, especially if I has sold it and did not have large continuing interest and insurance costs. That information was of limited use when selling into a world market, and it applied to 1.) me and 2.) that year, only. All in all, a cost of production number is only useful for determining profitability and -- more seriously -- unprofitability, since large profits are hardly a problem, but increasing unprofitability can only continue as long as the beekeeper can or will keep paying out for the privilege of giving honey away. COP is a useful number for seeing the need to either cut costs -- or fold. As a tool for setting price, COP is not good for anything, except for determining where competition may come from (fair competition, anyhow). Beekeepers are price takers, not generally price setters. The market sets the price on bulk honey. In smaller lots, however, the producer may have some price control, and is wise to take as much as can be negotiated at each event. Not to do so is to leave some money on the table -- money that may come in handy (see below) -- and also to lower the market for all honey. For the small beekeeper, selling at retail, the best approach -- IMO -- is to use the current bulk prices as a base and liberally add the cost of handling, packaging, transporting and selling the honey, plus shrinkage, risk, etc. Doubling or tripling the bulk price is not unreasonable. If the package size is small, and selling lots small, then the limit is what the traffic will bear. Usually there is competition, and that will be the limiting factor, and takes us back to total COP as the drop-dead number. Cutting price will often not often increase sales much, but I have seen beekeepers actually increase sales by charging more than everyone else! I've also seen beekeepers selling below what we all figured must be their total costs, losing money on every sale, and hoping to make it up on volume :) Since the COP is an elusive number, I've always tried to sell as far above it as possible. After all, I make computational errors and omissions on a fairly regular basis. My advise to anyone interested; try to make a handsome profit. That way, if you miss, you don't fall below break-even, and you can use any bonus you make to improve your quality, service, and to relax, making yourself a more pleasant supplier and employer, and, if you feel guilty (some can't allow themselves too much success), give some to the charity of your choice or help a needy person. Or you can give back to this industry: join and contribute to a club or national organisation, help a starting beekeeper, start a website, or take some of your well-earned leisure time to write informative and entertaining articles to BEE-L. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:17:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: FABIS and "small cells" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Yet I don't consider our bees hot or any different from what we have had over the years, Interesting as we all see aggressive bees (mostly supercedure bees) in our operations. >What problem do you think will come next on the list? Any ideas? Beekeepers are going to find that once a hive displays PMS signs the spores will still be in comb and the next colony will be more likely to develop virus problems when varroa levels reach levels high enough for viral infections. I have talked about PMS before! Starting to become a common subject in beekeeping circles now! As most know the deadly virus of the world are still around waiting for the right conditions to manifest. >By the way, Sioux Honey is paying 1.0970 with pool one & bonus. Pool 7 (lowest) is .7065 not counting special pool and melter pool. Great! I will give them a call and see how many barrels they want! Not a member they said! Of course the Sioux members did not get the buck fifty a pound non members did the last few years. Aagin the "merry go Round of commercial beekeeping" Sioux can pay high prices to members as their honey is about the highest price in stores in history. When the old price war starts again I wonder what Souix will pay! All packers doing some serious price holding which I am grateful for! Helps keep my retail prices high. I think U.S. honey should sell for $10 a pound and foreign honey for a dollar a pound but what do I know! Busy week Dee! Last warm week to pull supers! Your friend, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 15:03:42 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Seems to me that I heard that there was no statistically significant increase in deaths from bee stings in newly colonized AHB areas in the USA over what was measured before under EHB... Anybody have the facts? I don't have the facts but I read recently in ABJ that the first (recorded) AFB fatality in California was a beekeeper... This concerns me as it would spell the end of backyard beekeeping for me. I am not concerned for myself since I can start using a suit but I would be concerned for my neighbors who have come to accept my EHBs. My only hope is that AFBs won't make it through the NE winters. I have no doubt they will be coming here with migratory operations or mail order queens more often. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 15:14:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: grape pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Do bees successfully pollinate grapes? I wonder if grapes are self-pollinating. Grapes are self-pollinating and I have never seen my bees work my grapes. I was surprised to read in Frank Pellet's book on North America's nectar plant that bees collected grape pollen. Perhaps they do under certain circumstances? Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:26:25 -0600 Reply-To: davidmcd@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David McDonald Subject: Re: The Price of Honey In-Reply-To: <001101c5bcd5$095be340$27bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How do the packers and retailers manage to keep the price so high in the supermarket, even when the wholesale price is low? Is there not genuine competition among them? If not, why not? On 9/18/05, Bob Harrison wrote: > flooding the market. Packers were fixing store prices by keeping prices high > even though they were buying at record low prices. Stocking up after record > high honey prices with money made by buying low and selling high! -- David McDonald Santa Fe, NM -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:06:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Euthanizing a hive (was AHB in the Northeast) In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921018B0B47@UAEXCH.univ.alban y.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:39 AM 9/16/2005, Aaron Morris wrote: >Many have asked for a method to euthanizing a hive that will not >contaminate honey and combs. > >The method I use if sulfur fumes. Sorry Aaron, but I think this is a bad idea. Sulfur can and will end up in the wax. Lingering amounts may results in causing any new bees that are introduced to abscond. I can provide references. Sulfur is an inorganic PESTICIDE. Unlike the organic pesticides that break down into other compounds (which may be less, more, or similar in toxicity to the parent compound), sulfur is an element -- its not going anywhere soon. So how can one kill a hive without leaving nasty residues? For an occasional hive, its simple. Probably the safest and most humane method is to use C02 (carbon dioxide). Compressed in a tank, its a gas - any university, most gas supply houses (where you get gases for welders, etc.) can provide. Or, easier and safer yet, get a big block of dry ice, as it 'melts' it will produce the gas. Just be sure to wear gloves, the ice will instantly freeze flesh (frost bite). Remember, cold goes down, so throw the block on top, then bag the whole thing in a plastic trash bag to contain the gas. The bees just go to sleep. Now, if you're hard hearted, just bag the hive in a plastic garbage bag on a hot day. The colony will heat prostrate (usually takes less than an hour). Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 15:50:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: 'Bad' breath. [Was: Stinging insects] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Body odor and breath are not good around bees. Breathing directly on a frame of bees seems to agitate them to a lesser or greater extent. I was wondering if there was something like a mint, chewing gum, or a leaf of a certain herb that smelled good to the bees. Does anyone know? Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:35:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Using Dry Ice to do Hygienic Testing? In-Reply-To: <008f01c5bbb0$b4e06450$7fdffed8@Nemo> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >The question: >>Does anyone know if dry ice is cold enough to do hygienic testing? Allen asked me to respond. Dry ice is hard to control for this purpose. If you put it on the brood, it takes a long time. Worse, you get partial kills over a large area of comb, which really messes up the test -- instead of a known number of DEAD brood cells in a small area, you get an uncontrolled number of dead and dying brood in cells. Liquid nitrogen always worked in our trials, but we stipulated using a smaller area and more liquid nitrogen than most of our successors. One application and we killed all brood within our treatment 'tube', sometimes penetrating to the back or opposite side of the comb. However, everyone misses the point that our data shows that three separate small areas of flash frozen brood produces a more accurate and reliable test than killing one large area. Medhat took the liquid nitrogen freezing another step. He was concerned about partial kills, so he came up with a strategy of multiple freezings, using a butter dish. More than one application of cold is an insurance policy -- if you don't get them the first time, a 2nd application drives the cold on through. We developed this test under funding from EPA. We had tried the Tabor method of cutting out sections, freezing them overnight, and re-inserting into the hive. Many of our colonies responded to the damaged comb -- cut the comb and the worker bees started tossing out brood (whether dead or alive). We try hard to minimize comb damage to avoid false results. The larger the area affected, the more likely you are to find that the bees are again responding to changes in the comb, rather than dead brood. We haven't found a practical way of eliminating comb damage, but at least we can be sure that its consistent (the same) for every trial. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:44:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Using Dry Ice to do Hygienic Testing? In-Reply-To: <005a01c5bbc5$3ae16a90$2c7e2a50@office> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:20 PM 9/17/2005, Peter Edwards wrote: >There are also freezing sprays used by plumbers to freeze water pipes while >they work on them. Would these do the job? Most of us do not, >unsurprisingly, have a stock of liquid nitrogen! Peter, good idea, and I don't know the answer. But it would be easy to find out. We tried different amounts (quantity and time) of application of liquid nitrogen, continued until follow up observations showed that ALL of the treated brood was dead or frozen. As a rule of thumb, if you dose and then feel cold on the opposite side of the comb, you're probably cold enough. Frozen brood gets hard. If you have a small temperature probe (most electronic gadget shops, restaurant supplies, etc. sell a variety of small temp probes that are relatively inexpensive), see if you've reached freezing temp inside the brood (you will have to spear some). Or, leave them a few days -- if the bees haven't pulled them out, dead brood will start to decompose -- turn brown. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who tries this -- we're at the end of our flying weather in Montana, so we're not likely to be able to test this year. I have NOT promoted use of liquid nitrogen by the general public because its dangerous to handle -- pour it on your gloves and its likely to seep on through, flash freezing your hand. If you do use it, be sure that you wear gloves and that the gloves are impervious to liquid penetration. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:29:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Is ivy a decent nectar source? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain My wife and I spent a wonderful vacation in North Carolina last week. While at the Biltmore estate in Asheville, we noted what looked like English ivy vines covering trees and walls in several spots. On closer examination, we saw dozens of honeybees working the inconspicuous flowers. I had not realized English ivy flowered and secreted nectar in quantity that's attractive to bees. Does anyone know if it's a good source? It's attractive to plant in any garden. I also heard that Boston ivy was attractive to bees. Any info or references will be appreciated. Regards, Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 14:47:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Hygienic Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is it needed that the brood be actually killed? From somewhere I have = the idea that someone just pricked the cappings open in a triangular = pattern, 7 on a side. Don't the bees remove any larvae that have been = disturbed this way? I always assumed when I was ready to do this I'd = make a tool with about 50 needles in it (You figure out how many) and = just stab the helpless little guys. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:40:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Hygienic Testing In-Reply-To: <06bb01c5bd4a$a7721bb0$7d54b745@drivec> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dick asks, "is it necessary to kill the brood?" and comments, I'd just stab them. If the brood is not killed (it may take some real effort to kill them -- we had to swirl the needle -- especially with young larvae that just float away from the utensil), the bees may simply repair the caps. The hygienic test involves several behaviors, ranging from repair, to uncapping, to disposal of dead brood. Short cuts in the method may result in testing a different behavior from the one that you want to assess. Granted, some have done the prick test, but we're not fans of it -- too much variability in response. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:00:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Hygienic Testing In-Reply-To: <06bb01c5bd4a$a7721bb0$7d54b745@drivec> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-66BB6CA At 02:47 PM 9/19/2005, you wrote: >Is it needed that the brood be actually killed? From somewhere I >have the idea that someone just pricked the cappings open in a >triangular pattern, 7 on a side. Don't the bees remove any larvae >that have been disturbed this way? They certainly will remove them. The problem is that the bees will respond to the disturbed comb or physically injured larvae (if they also have been pricked), and this may tell you nothing about how well the bees will detect and removed dead larvae in undamaged cells. -Tim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 9/16/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:25:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gary Wheaton Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? English Ivy is considered an "invasive plant" in the northwest, and is destroyed where ever possible. Be careful and check your state Ag dept before planting. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:59:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Using Dry Ice to do Hygienic Testing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry Bromenshenkwrote: > Peter, good idea, and I don't know the answer. But it would be easy to > find > out. Yes, but I think this is a project for next year. We are really at the end of our season here and I would not want to destroy any brood at this stage - although the season is very late in the UK and I have seen colonies today that are almost wall-to-wall with brood - amazing! I do have some temperature probes (2 for £9.99 from catering equipment suppliers - £32.99 EACH from Thorne's!), so I will do some tests next year. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:07:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com asked: > I had not realized English ivy flowered and secreted nectar in quantity > that's attractive to bees. Does anyone know if it's a good source? It's > attractive to plant in any garden. In the UK, ivy is the last major nectar and pollen source fowering until the frosts begin. Although it gives surplus in some areas, most would probably regard it as a late top-up for the bees - perhaps more for its pollen than its nectar. Many insects work ivy - flies and wasps as well as bees - and on a fine day the noise can be so loud that you might think that there was a swarm in the ivy. However, ivy nectar granulates rapidly and there have been claims that it is dangerous to bees - even granulating in their crops and causing death. Not a problem that I have seen though and I welcome the late supply of pollen. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:29:12 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Hygienic Testing MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT In reference to using some tool to "stab" brood: Years ago, the first fall of my beekeeping, I did lots of things I learned from. I brought several supers of honey into the house, ready for the extractor.. On closer examination, I discovered patches of capped brood in the middle of the honey on some of the frames. "Smartly" I took a sharp kinfe and just sliced the tops of the capped brood off. Next day, to my horror, I found the floor covered with hundreds of walking wounded. The bees had been cut in half and only the front half had survived. Not a pleasant memory, Just wondering what the actual result would be of your tool??? Eunice. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 17:54:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Thompson Subject: Re: Loss of beehives due to Katrina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have spoken with beekeepers in the coast counties of Harrison (Biloxi, Gulfport) and Jackson (Ocean Springs, MS) and learned that beekeeping in those areas is in pretty good shape. Several commercial outfits winter on that part of the Coast, but, if course, they weren't yet there. There is little queen-rearing done there, so that aspect is moot. Having kept bees in the area just north of Biloxi/ Ocean Springs for 15+ years, I can appreciate "high water" and the risks to colonies. Fortunately, it seems that most of the bees were located in high ground areas. As regards folks in the mid-state area, I've yet to get any solid information. Barry Thompson North Potomac, mD -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:04:55 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lennard Pisa Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? In-Reply-To: <20050919.113041.25844.506706@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Assuming Ivy is Hedera spec., it is one of the important late pollen sources here (Netherlands). It does give nectar too. regards, Lennard -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 17:46:54 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. [Was: Stinging insects] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar, Breathing on a frame is a bad idea regardless of bad breath or not. Its one of the ways bees recognize a threat to their hive. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, Florida USA Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:03:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Hygienic Testing In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050919133607.03f40ec0@selway.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...we had to swirl the needle -- especially with > young larvae that just > float away from the utensil), the bees may simply > repair the caps. I did my testing with one clean poke, I did not swirl the needle for fear of making it too easy by creating too large of a hole. I can't imagine a larvae floating away from the sharp end of a needle, but I did have one colony that sealed the holes back up, but I took that as a sign of 'failure to identify an injured or dead larvae' and requeened the colony. ______________________________________________________ Yahoo! for Good Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:54:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast In-Reply-To: <001a01c5b97e$135da810$16a02fd1@Nemo> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:45 PM 9/14/05 -0400, you wrote: >As to the frequency, there *may* be an increase, or may not. I do not know. >Seems to me that I heard that there was no statistically significant >increase in deaths from bee stings in newly colonized AHB areas in the USA >over what was measured before under EHB, that could not be explained by >changes in human populations and other factors. > >Anybody have the facts? > I have to wonder at what a "statistically significant" increase in stinging deaths would be? Anways, all "the facts" are probably out there, somewhere. I did find this site which has some of the facts: http://bees.ucr.edu/ahb-facts.html At the bottom there is a table listing 6 separate deaths attributed to AHB over a period of a few years. All the fatalities were older people who presumably were unable to run away fast enough- an assertion I've read before about other sting fatalities. George- --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:19:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Queen breeding problems & small cell In-Reply-To: <432E2FCD.7030907@adelphia.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For Michael Traynor: This is a very good and detailed article and I enjoyed reading it. But in reading, depending upon who you are, different people see different things based on their experiences and what they do in life. For smaller queens to be produced, though here thought to be bad, it actually might not be, especially if the larger are not making it. For in Nature in most all strains/races there are small, medium, and large offspring produced, with more variance/variability being with the smaller and in times of deep stress many species go for the wariance/variability to survive and change to meet the times. But then this IMPOV. It shows a lot is going on here. Tells a very detailed story. It also shows an industry that is hurting. But also shows hope, but again IMPOV. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:15:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: AHB in the Northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "statistically significant" increase in stinging deaths It would be nice to know the records of stinging and fatal deaths percapita and local prior to trachial mites, varroa mites, AHB, and after such invasions?? This would give a more clear picture to what the true facts might or might not be when it comes to what reality is. Can any one point these facts out. My second time asking this question in the last several days. I will soon think that there are no such facts and that AHB is no worse for me or the puplic than any old defensive colony. Old people unable to run are simply inclined to be victims to any defensive colony. I am sure that older people fell victim also prior to mites and the so called dreaded AHB but what are the real numbers in the differences? Is there someone that knows or will this remain an unaswered question for all on this list? . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 05:53:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It can be useful, occasionally it will yield a super or two, at least in the the southern part of the UK. The honey crystallises extremely fast. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 06:40:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. In-Reply-To: <20050919.085128.17266.504324@webmail34.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-69EB1C8E > >> breath are not good around bees. I always hear this, but I find my breath a useful tool. When inspecting a frame of brood, or looking for a queen on a crowded frame of brood, I blow on the bees to get them to move out of the way, or break their cluster, so I can better see what I am looking for. Perhaps if one was to blow into the entrance one might get one's nose peppered, but breath isn't al;ways "bad" around bees. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.24/101 - Release Date: 9/13/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 06:58:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. [Was: Stinging insects] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 19/09/05 22:58:56 GMT Daylight Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> I sometimes use it as a way of moving bees around on a frame; they just move quietly away from the spot I've breathed on. On the other hand, I've heard that AHB will react defensively to breath. They don't seem to like C02, and the reaction you get may depend on the strain. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 07:18:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: What is a "statistically significant" Increase in Stinging Deaths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have to wonder at what a "statistically significant" increase in > stinging > deaths would be? Well any increase in the existing pattern of incidents that does not seem, after proper measurement and statistical analysis, to be attributable to chance. (Statistics is, in part, the black art of seeing whether apparent and obvious differences in a series of numbers, such as annual stinging deaths or stinging incidents from honey bees, are actually due to "noise", especially in small samples, or whether they are probably due to a change in the trend and some new factor, and the likelihood that the conclusion is accurate within a range of probability). >Anways, all "the facts" are probably out there, somewhere. I did find this >site which has some of the facts: > http://bees.ucr.edu/ahb-facts.html > At the bottom there is a table listing 6 separate deaths attributed to AHB > over a period of a few years. Thanks for that. For our purposes here, though, it is unfortunate that they do not list all deaths from honey bee stings and break out the AHB numbers, along with the percentage of colonies in the US that are estimated to be AHB, and provide that data for a series of recent years. That would allow us to see if there is a disproportional number attributable to AHB. We do know that there have been stinging deaths for EHB recorded every year for as long as bees have been kept in the USA and that these deaths have been, in some cases, from massive, sudden and relentless stinging from rogue EHB hives. We've all come across those if we have been around long enough. I realise that this is difficult to do, as is identifying AHB, but the website cited here merely builds on a previous assumption, which -- last I heard -- had not been proven in any conclusive manner, and tells one part of the story, but not the other. After all, the AHB have displaced some EHB, so we would expect that the number of incidents attributable to EHB may have declined in those areas. As with many things, we simply don't know, at least from what I have seen. AFAIK, an assumption was made that seemed true, was accepted, and other work has gone from there without re-testing the underlying assumption periodically. These assumptions may even have been true in other countries along the AHB migration route, but are they true in the USA? The USA is different in many ways from Mexico and Central and South America. The climate is different, and the bees may also have changed. Time has passed > All the fatalities were older people who presumably were unable to run > away fast enough - an assertion I've read before about other sting > fatalities. As the years pass, this has more and more meaning for me. Please understand that I am not saying what seems obvious to many may not be true, at least in part, but rather I am saying that the assumptions have not been proven in this report, nor does it provide any way of doing so, and enquiring minds need to know. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 07:25:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rick Drutchas Subject: Putting bees down MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have a place next to the barn where we pee. The grass grows long there and not thinking I yanked out a tuff for the smoker. To my surprise that smoke knocked the bees right out into a heap onto the bottom board, some of the bees even smothered and died. I bet you could kill bees that way maybe using uric acid to make ammonia nitrate. Wonder if that would effect the wax? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 07:54:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. In-Reply-To: <004601c5bd6c$0c157e60$0200a8c0@workstation> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I need some help here since I have seen experienced beekeepers blow lightly on a frame to move bees with no problems. A light puff opened up an area on the frame so capped cells could be seen. It also was used to move some bees from around a queen. It is a nice technique when you are holding a frame with both hands. In each case the only thing that happened was the bees moved. But I have been told that breath is an aggression trigger. We smoke bees so we can work colonies and smoke is CO2, just like our breath. Shouldn't that trigger aggression? It does the opposite. So is breath really a trigger for aggressive behavior or a target when aggressive behavior is triggered by something else? My eyes (and experience say the latter, especially since that seems to be the case with other things like watchbands, wool, dark colors and the like. I have worked bees with my black digital watch on and with dark colors (a black knee brace while wearing shorts) with no problems until they got riled up. So is it the same with breath? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:58:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: The price of Honey. What should it be? I figure my skills are worth a similar salary as any professional and I deserve to make 40-60K per year after expenses. Its a typical range of income in the area I live in the upper midwest. I charge $7.50 -$15.00/pound retail for varietal honey . We do the packing and marketing ourselves. We produce about 20,000 pounds annually. This price is inline with high end honey imported from Europe/New Zealand and sold locally in specialty stores and places like Whole Foods. I shun the big box retailers for there is no future there competing with highly automated packers selling a cheap product. I see no bright future for commercial honey production in this country (USA). The cost of labor, insurance and adhering to government regulations/taxes is so far out of line as compared to places like China or South America there is little chance to compete and be profitable in the long haul. Like what is the strategy... you're going to count on higher productivity to overcome foreign labor? You can't blame the big packers for buying foregin honey, its a world economy and we play that game and count on it for other products we use daily in our lives. Given these facts in the market place its no wonder that most of the commercial honey I have sampled in drums is poor quality, with the moisture at 18 % or above. Like whats the incentive to producing a 16% moisture crafted product in a drum? By the time its cooked and blended its a generic product anyhow that sets the stage for others to sell a high quality product and have a cleary differentiable product on the shelf. I beleive an important factor to succeed in being a small producer and packer is to have a first class package. Honey bears imply cheap, so does plastic. Why would I want my products to be associated with a cheap blended product? So... for me its not so much the question of what honey should sell for on the market but how can I differentiate myself in a sea of marginal offerings. Its really not that hard IF you have a large metropolitan market with numerous "select" outlets. We turn down business which might ruin our image as a premium honey producer. I believe the future for american beekeeping lies with the small artisan producer similar to the model being pursued by some beekeepers in Europe. I could care less about the commercial market and their pricing levels. In fact when the plastic honey bear prices rise at the retail level it shrinks the gap between that generic product and a premium product and the "good honey" looks like a better buy. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:16:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard A Cartwright Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. In-Reply-To: <432FF87B.2010903@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" <"So is breath really a trigger for aggressive behavior or a target when Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Hygienic Testing In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050919154026.0570e4b0@mail.watchtv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Tim's answer to the question about pricking the brood was right on target. Question: "Is it needed that the brood be actually killed?" >Response: The problem is that the bees will respond to the disturbed comb >or physically injured larvae ... this may tell you nothing about how well >the bees will detect and removed dead larvae in undamaged cells. The purpose of the test is for bees to detect and remove dead larvae, not to see whether they respond to damage to the cell. That's why we abandoned Steve Tabor's cut and freeze approach -- some of our colonies responded to the cutting of the comb, regardless of whether the brood was dead or alive. Some years ago in Seattle we did a series of 'prick' tests. One beekeeper decided to monitor the test area by placing a plastic frame around the test area (to make it easier to find). The bees removed the kill rows and the unkilled control rows -- all brood within the frame. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:23:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lanfeust Subject: blowing on bees In-Reply-To: <432FF87B.2010903@suscom-maine.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I need some help here since I have seen experienced beekeepers blow > lightly on a frame to move bees with no problems. A light puff opened up > an area on the frame so capped cells could be seen. It also was used to > move some bees from around a queen. It is a nice technique when you are > holding a frame with both hands. It's what I am used to do also. It works well with local Italian and Hawaïan bees. But Russian are more sensitive and tend to jump on my face when I blow on them. I am afraid there is no general rule. Hervé -- Hervé www.emelys.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:58:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Subject: Re: blowing on bees In-Reply-To: <1127229808.13095.243339645@webmail.messagingengine.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 11:23 -0400, Lanfeust wrote: > I am afraid there is no general rule. While being very new to keeping (started this year) I've worked out the one rule regarding bees. Bees don't read the books which explain how bees behave. Seems to explain everything I've seen this year :) -- Mark -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:16:25 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> My casual breathing (not intentional blowing on a frame to move bees)started a frenzied buzzing and 'butts-up' reaction. This reaction is something I like to call in my bees a "Not now!" attitude. My bees don't mind my intrusions 'usually', but one in a while I am forced to work the bees in less than ideal conditions for example, ahead of an approaching front. At these times the bees seem to be saying "NOT NOW!" -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, Florida USA Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:21:41 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. In-Reply-To: <432FF87B.2010903@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> We smoke bees so we can work colonies and smoke is CO2, just like our breath. Shouldn't that trigger aggression? It does the opposite. I hope you don't mean that. Smoke and animal exhalation are not the same, and barely similar. Simply because they share one component doesn't make them the same. Otherwise you could say that humans and oil are the same because they are largely carbon based, and we quite obviously are not oil. Smoke is a distinct thing, something that over millions of years the bees have come to associate with fire, and a potention danger that may require vacating the home suddenly and triggers a flight preparation response. Breath on the other hand is associated with an animal intruder and the bees whether only slightly or agressively repsond to this threat. The response is the same 'defense', whether it is slight and the bees move out of the way or a severe mass attack. Obviously other stress factor can contribute to added defensiveness such as queenlessness or perhaps an approaching front, but the response is the same, just a different grade of defense. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Bradenton, Florida USA Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 17:10:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pencaemawr Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle Lifecycle In-Reply-To: <20050916215225.35068.qmail@web32114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mark berninghausen wrote: > Does anyone have info or a source of a handout on the lifecyle of the Small Hive Beetle? > http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/diseases/documents/SHB_factsheet.pdf Regards, John Burgess -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:27:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In each case the only thing that happened was the bees moved. But I have > been told that breath is an aggression trigger. I have never experienced that effect in all my years with EHB, and always blow on bees to move them on brood frames, often with no veil protection, but I have read that AHB can be very sensitive to breath. Apparently, in Mexico, some beekeepers have devised methods of ensuring their breath does not go onto the bees for just that reason. Maybe this can be a new quick test for AHB, now that morphometics, cell size, and even DNA, are in question :) allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:39:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Sugar Syrup and HFCS Hello to All, Have you recently checked PRICE and AVAILIBILITY of sugar syrup? It seems that the availity of sugar syrup here in the Carolina's is now slim to none; and, I understand that when it does become available prices are called to be a few cents higher. The HFCS market will follow sugar. Cheers, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC 27320 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:50:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: Wax worm Questions. ONly in the last two years have I had to deal with waxmoths. I have a relatively strong hive that has apparently decided to just live with some wax moths. I removed the queen excluder on Sunday and lo and behold there were wax worms right on top of the excluder. This is my 2nd strongest hive (of 4) so I was surprised that they hadn't ejected them. I removed a frame and scraped of the webs I saw - but, is this usual? What is the life-cycle of these moths? Is it possible I have some living in my house? I bring my honey supers into the house for the winter and for two years now I get a minor infestation just before time for supering. Have I just been lucky up to now or are they hiding in my house somewhere? TIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:48:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Hygienic Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > The purpose of the test is for bees to detect and remove dead larvae, not > to see whether they respond to damage to the cell. No doubt you have thought of this one (!) - but is there any possibility that freezing the cappings with liquid nitrogen alters them in some way that is then detected by the bees, causing them to remove them - and they then find the dead larvae? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:05:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>It can be useful, occasionally it will yield a super or two, at least in the the southern part of the UK. The honey crystallises extremely fast. Is ivy so common in your area or is it such a prolific producer of nectar? In my neck of the woods, ivy is not common. I would not expect surplus from it. But it could be useful in up-keeping the brood-rearing. And I am looking for ornamental vines to plant in the garden that would of use to the bees as well. I have recently checked into kudzu and everything that I've read says I would not be able to contain it. They say porcelain berry is invasive as well. I will plant a hardy passion fruit vine next year. I've heard it was good for the bees and produces edible fruit. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:17:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. In-Reply-To: <012f01c5be00$3a55dbf0$66dffed8@Nemo> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Re: I have been told that breath is an aggression trigger. Allen said: I have never experienced that effect in all my years with EHB... Maybe this can be a new quick test for AHB. Ok, most of the time, you can blow on bees and NOT get an aggressive response. Didn't work the day I had a beer for lunch. Don't know whether the bees didn't like the smell or were mad because I didn't bring any for them (I'm joking -- some on this list take everything literally). Justin Schmidt alleged that AHB responded aggressively to breath and attributed the response to C02 as the component that induced the behavior -- I find this hard to believe. We routinely use C02 to anesthetize bees, and we never get an aggressive response from EHB. So, either AHB has a different response OR something else in the breath causes the response. I hear Justin has retired, but maybe he reads this list? Of course, blowing too hard on bees can agitate them, just like over-smoking (the flame thrower approach that I've seen some beekeepers use). We have found, as have others, that bees respond to caffeine in ways similar to the response seen in people -- I've considered getting an order to go for them when I grab my morning's Starbuck. (I'm somewhat serious about this -- caffeine enhances some bee behaviors). Jerry Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:23:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>So is breath really a trigger for aggressive behavior or a target when aggressive behavior is triggered by something else? I should qualify my question more. I use gentle breath and a finger to prompt the bees to clear an area on a frame that I wish to inspect more closely as well. Without smoking the bees. This works fine most of the season. Now we are in dry August. Bees are idle and defend against robbing by yellow jackets, bumble bees and other honey bees. They are on guard and respond quickly. I can still go into the hives without smoke, veil etc. but, when I have a frame up close to my face, my normal breathing will sometimes cause a bee to fly up and target my face. I then try to hold my breath when inspecting a frame and turn my head away from the frame to breath. It gets a bit uncomfortable and prolongs the inspection. I suspect the bees 'sense' my stress and respond. If I smoke the bees first, I can breath at them all I want without inducing a defensive reaction. I speculate that bees associate my moist, warm breath with predators and get alarmed. (I also noticed that some toothpaste brand scent makes bees more defensive...) I would like to mask my breath with some scent/flavor that would put the bees in better disposition without having to use smoke during nectar dearth. I find my bees reaction quite natural and believe I have rather gentle bees. Someone once told me that robbing phacelia leaves on your hands keeps bees from stinging the hands. I was wondering if chewing on some herb could make human breath more palatable to bees... Waldemar My eyes (and experience say the latter, especially since that seems to be the case with other things like watchbands, wool, dark colors and the like. I have worked bees with my black digital watch on and with dark colors (a black knee brace while wearing shorts) with no problems until they got riled up. So is it the same with breath? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:00:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Hygienic Testing In-Reply-To: <000301c5be03$840003e0$557f2a50@office> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Peter asks: .. is there any possibility that freezing the cappings with liquid nitrogen alters them in some way that is then detected by the bees, causing them to remove them - and they then find the dead larvae? Response: yes, that may be occurring. However, liquid nitrogen does not change the appearance (to our eyes), whereas some other freezing methods do. Part of this approach is consistency -- do the same damage to the same area, each time. However, at time/concentrations less than that required to kill the brood, we didn't see any evidence of bees uncapping cells exposed to the liquid nitrogen. Good question -- don't have a really good answer. We've played around a bit with ultrasonics and other methods of killing pupae without damaging comb -- but haven't found a better, affordable alternative. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:05:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: sting releasers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed FYI One of my fair complexioned colleagues lathers up with Sunscreen. He found one (I think it was a Coppertone product) that resulted in stinging behavior. We were doing behavioral trials with feeders away from the hives -- we rarely wear veils or get stung, but he was attacked as he walked up (just as he had hundreds of times before). I've also had visitors get bees in their hair -- the common factor seemed to be the use of herbal scented hair shampoo. Have others found cosmetic products that either attract (e.g. the shampoo) or agitate (sunscreen) the bees? Thanks Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:08:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: What is a "statistically significant" Increase in Stinging Deaths In-Reply-To: <00aa01c5bdd5$16613440$66dffed8@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have no data to add to this discussion but do have a concern for when you start to run your statistical analysis. This will not be as simple as comparing death rates before and after the incidence of AHB. You will have to account for the changing demographics of the areas around the colonies. Given the trends toward gentrification of once rural areas, any changes in death rates may simply be a reflection of changes in exposure patterns - more civilians in contact with bees of either type. Alternatively, the reported downward trend in feral colonies and suburban beekeeping could be instead reducing civilian exposure leading to a theorized increased sensitivity and a more severe (that is, lethal) reaction when they finally do get stung. The only control I can think of is to take your data from a single consistent time-period and select your datapoints across separate geographies - some AHB, some EHB. If I remember the most recent statistics correctly, less than US 20 deaths per year are attributable to all forms of "bee" stings (including wasps, etc.). Presumably, only a subset of that number are attributable to honeybees. Given the very low numbers, I'm skeptical that a sufficiently large sample size exists to compensate for the simultaneous variances in exposure patterns. I agree that we should challenge the "common knowledge" that AHB leads to an increase in stinging deaths. However, I don't hold out much hope for a study proving it one way or the other. Mike Rossander __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:39:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Timothy Eisele Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. In-Reply-To: <20050920.102336.296.521432@webmail33.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 Sep 2005, waldig@netzero.com wrote: > I then try to hold my breath when inspecting a frame and turn my head away from the frame to breath. It gets a bit uncomfortable and prolongs the inspection. I suspect the bees 'sense' my stress and respond. > This brings up a possibly dumb question: would it be worthwhile to use a diving snorkel to divert your breath away? It would obviously need a screen over the end, since you really don't want to inhale any bees, but it should do a really good job of diverting your breath away from the frame no matter how closely you look at it. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:32:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Racism > is there really any proof of greater human mortality after AHB arrival? I don't have a clear and compelling smoking gun, as this would require state-by-state data that I have yet to find, but here's a summary of the best data I could find on the issue: http://bee-quick.com/reprints/stingdeath.pdf (from the 09/05 issue of Bee Culture) Which show a lower rate of sting deaths in Canada, which clearly has no AHB problem. (Theories that Canadians are faster runners, are smarter and would not spray colonies of bees with cans of Raid, and so on are equally possible explanations for the difference in per capita deaths.) To be honest, we simply don't have enough deaths to make any valid (statistically significant) conclusions about the fraction that is known to be due to AHB versus the fraction that MIGHT be AHB, but might just as easily be due to yellow jackets. Post-mortems rarely include the identification of the specific type of stinging insect that caused the death. And yeah, they made a typo in the article, which I have yet to tweak in my copy of the final pdf. The chart heading "more risk of death than from stings?" should read "How many times more risk of death than from stings?" On the other hand, this guy, one who would seem to be motivated to "hype" the problem as much as possible, as he hawks a line of cheap veils for first responders, can only claim 15 "confirmed deaths" in the USA from AHB defensive stinging incidents since day one: http://www.stingshield.com/chron.htm He does have some nice maps, though: http://www.stingshield.com/all-us.htm jim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:42:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I added coffee-grounds to my smoker fuel once. Didn't notice any = difference with the bees. Walter Weller -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:41:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy Eisele asked: > This brings up a possibly dumb question: would it be worthwhile to use a > diving snorkel to divert your breath away? Most people think that we are barmy to keep bees - using a snorkel might result in the arrival of men in white coats! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:54:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Traynor Subject: Re: Queen breeding problems & small cell In-Reply-To: <20050920041944.64561.qmail@web51615.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: This is a very good and detailed article and I enjoyed >reading it. But in reading, depending upon who you are, >different people see different things based on their >experiences and what they do in life. > > I fully agree with you to keep an open mind. You are connecting more of the dots in the article then I can now see and yet I understand why you are from your experiences. Over time I have raised and bred many different types of animals. Each animal had their established ways of how it should be done. Experience and observation show that things are passed on as fact because no one really questions them since "they" are the experts. Those who check the information further do not always come up with the same answers. I like this form for the way details are looked at and experiences are passed on. I say when we know a little about something we know everything. However, the more we know the dumber we get. Michael -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:55:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Traynor Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? In-Reply-To: <20050920.100519.296.521099@webmail33.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar wrote >I have recently checked into kudzu and everything that I've read says I would not be able to contain it. > > If you check further you will find that the US government has not been able to contain it. Kudzu covers every plant in its path. Whether a weed or a tree the plants die from lack of sunlight. Come to Maryland, Washington, D.C. and on to the southern states and see its devastation. It would be hard to believe that it is good for most wildlife because ot the density of its folliage. The US government planted it for errosion control and now they can not control it. Before planting any plant you may want to check online for its invasiveness. Your neighbors will not take kindly to you when you don't. Michael -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:12:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/09/2005 05:06:55 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: I had not realized English ivy flowered and secreted nectar in quantity that's attractive to bees. Does anyone know if it's a good source? It's attractive to plant in any garden. It is a very useful source of winter feed. In recent years there has been a strong flow at the end of the year and sometimes my hives are heavier in spring than they were in autumn courtesy of ivy. I don't feed my bees. The honey granulates quickly and coarsely with a strong flavour not to everyone's taste, but I like it. I sometimes invert a hive top feeder over the colony to get some cut comb for personal use. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:41:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Wax worm Questions. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/09/05 18:36:19 GMT Daylight Time, mlathan@PACCAR.COM writes: <> Could you have wax in your house somewhere, in a suitable state to feed waxworms? I had lesser wax moths in the house here for months before I finally found where they were feeding! Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:03:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Queen breeding problems & small cell In-Reply-To: <20050920041944.64561.qmail@web51615.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For Michael Traynor: Dees has a good point that "For smaller queens to be produced, though here thought to be bad, it actually might not be, especially if the larger are not making it." My bees are regressed to about 5.0 mm, all my bees are ferals and are open mated. I believe that assortative mating has increased mating frequency with the more fit smaller sized ferals in my area, and along with that came some excellent genetics. I'm still in the beginning stages of testing for hygienic traits in my bees, but the first two rounds of testing indicate that 60% of my colonies are hygienic... and I haven't even began to select for the trait yet! This when the experts have stated that without selecting, you should expect to find 10% of your colonies to be hygienic. I have a citation below on the link that supports what Dee, myself and others are seeing. It is powerful evidence that seems to suggest that there is a strong ecological and evolutionary tie between small cell bees and that of the smaller ferals with superb genetics, due to assortative mating preferences. The key to tapping this valuable resource is to regress to small cell. Larger queens do not succeed well in taping these genetics due to assortative mating. The citation states: "larger drones mated the large OD models, and smaller drones mated the small OD models." "It is possible that differential mechanical and tactile cues resulted in assortative mating by drones. The drone's first two pairs of legs grasp the model abdomen dorsally, while the last pair of legs grasp it laterally and ventrally (Gary and Marston, 1971)." "Size matching could occur through cues for mounting position. If drones use alignment cues from the anterior portion of the queen, small drones could be too far forward on the queen abdomen and the large drones too far back for copulation to be completed." "No matter what proximate factors account for assortative mating by drones, this mating pattern could have powerful ecological and evolutionary consequences. A limited degree of positive assortative mating has been observed between subspecies of Apis mellifera (Kerr and Bueno, 1970; Koeniger et al., 1989)." "We have shown that drones are extremely variable in size. In one study drones of sympatric African and European subspecies differed in body mass (Rinderer et al., 1985); therefore, it is likely that drone size has a heritable component." http://balder.prohosting.com/~starrier/SizeRelatedMatingPreferences.html Michael, here's the link to the online beekeeping videos I promised you. You need to search 'beekeeping' in the search bar to the left. The drone removal method is in there somewhere,,, http://mkat.iwf.de/index.asp?Language=en Best Wishes, Joe __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 20:28:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Queen breeding problems & Hygienic testing In-Reply-To: <20050920220313.56590.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:03 PM 9/20/2005, you wrote: > but the first two rounds of testing indicate >that 60% of my colonies are hygienic.. Since the topic has come up several times over the past few days, I should add that populous hives are more likely to test hygienic than smaller hives. Sue Cobey said the first time she tested her stock many years ago for hygienic behavior the results were 80-90%, well above what you would expect for stock that wasn't currently being breed for hygenic behavor. A retest of the same hives (with the same queens) yielded a disappointing but expected 10%. The difference was simply the hives were booming with bees mid summer during the first test and were much smaller fall populations for the 2nd. So timing of the test can affect the results. That's not to say your's truly aren't 60%, I have no idea of your procedure or timing. Its a very promising result though if you got the result after repeat tests. -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:12:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Mike & All, > breath isn't al;ways "bad" > around bees. > My bees do not think I have bad breath but my wife would tell the bees different. Luckily she does not communicate with bees like I do. I agree Mike. Yet another thing I have in common with a fellow beekeeper. I dropped the habit of using smoke on bees two seasons ago and simply use the carbon dioxide in my breath to gently manipulate the bees to do what I want them to do as needed, but most of the time no breath much less smoke is needed to work even my meanest bees. I do have some mean bees like any old beekeeper might have. I came to the conclusion to not use smoke because for several seasons prior I noticed my breath worked better than smoke for working bees, breath does not rile them as much as even the slightest of smoke. My smoker is now amongst other items now in my beekeeping museum collection to be handed down in antiquity. I wonder how many useless beekeeping items there are in the world of beekeeping. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:20:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AFB in Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, Australia is a big place but a couple breeders are the largest. My article in the October American Bee Journal covers only the Browns Bees operation. I believe Brown's Bees is second largest (at least was last season). As I said in the article it would have been wonderful if a writer had covered the other imports. Those which got the other packages from the other large producer are not commenting but only to acknowledge they received shipments. They certainly are not bragging about their shipment. Allen said: I have also found some of them (the majority) to be *very* susceptible to chalkbrood. Common knowledge of Australian bees *before the new queen import system* and still a problem with those queen producers trying to select a breeder queen from a chalkbrood sucesptable stock. I think we all would agree bringing in new genetics is the best cure for chalkbrood! > Moreover, we recently discovered a touch of AFB in some of my hives, and, guess what? They were the Australian package bee group, hard to blame any race on a case of AFB! AFB happens! > not the Hawaiian group. cioncidence? Maybe ? or maybe not? Interesting but proves what? > I let it go a bit to see if they cleaned it up. They definitely did not. How many hives would? I would not let the situation go very long if in my yards! >What I'm thinking is that North American breeders and Hawaiians tending to watch for HYG traits I know the Aussies monitor the list and do not mean disrespect but from what I see the Aussie industry is mostly queen producers (not unlike most of our U.S. queen industry). Terry Brown realizes the U.S. market wants a better queen than the regular Australian line so he is traveling the world finding those queens. Terry is working on an import of the most hygienic queen line the U.S. has ever produced as I write. Also a varroa tolerant line. Why select when you can import the best? Terry is working with queen breeders and not queen producers. Doing the testing and selecting from your own stock is what queen producers do! Bringing in proven genetics is expensive but is the fast track to success. I have tested what the U.S. queen producers have to offer and have kept the results to myself. I would lose a bunch of queen producer friends if my findings were made public! >What do list members know about HYG and Australian bees? Queen producers in Australia produce queens. On the Australian tour only one breeder was really working on his line. I have got a sample of his line (Horner) at my house and chalkbrood is still a problem. This week I added two frames of sealed brood full of varroa to the horner line, Browns bees line, Buckfast line and the Varroa tolerant line from Italy. Hopefully I will kill off 50% this winter. These bees have never been treated since the import! All the lines have got low varroa counts (no PMS or deformed bees and only one mature varroa to a cell and maybe one varroa to say 20 pulled purple eyed pupa.). Things are going to change now! I will check for hygienic behavior next spring (as Tim said this time of year proves nothing) . > Are US beekeepers going to get a big surprise? The biggest surprise for us has been the low varroa load! My opinion is that a completely mite free package will easily survive the first year! Worth repeating! My opinion is that a completely mite free package will easily survive the first year! Research by all the bee labs supported the hypothesis *until* queen producers started shipping out packages with mite infestations because chemical treatments were not working to control mites in the hives the workers were being shaken from! My partner blanket treated his Australian shipment last week although testing said they would (in my opinion) winter quite well. he is a commercial beekeeper and wants to protect his investment! I did not argue . He has the same breeder queens as I do but he treated his to protect his investment. Good idea as I am adding varroa pressure to mine! I am gambling with mine and adding varroa pressure! If all mine die then I will go graft from his! Our packages from a U.S. source (will remain unnamed) has some varroa problems and needed treatment early on proving in our minds the value of mite free packages! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:23:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? In-Reply-To: <20050920.100519.296.521099@webmail33.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 17:05 +0000, waldig@netzero.com wrote: > >>It can be useful, occasionally it will yield a super or two, at least in the the southern part of the UK. The honey crystallises extremely fast. > > Is ivy so common in your area or is it such a prolific producer of nectar? Round here (Somerset, UK) there's a mass of it within a half mile radius. The valley to the north west of the hives cannot be developed because the land is too steep so it's been left as a mix of wild and open pasture. Lots of ivy, acers and sycamore (which I've been told will be a good source in the spring). I'm feeding the bees this year as I'm not sure how much they'll get from the Ivy but boy are they busy at the moment. http://www.flickr.com/photos/flyinghamster/45015617/ Before I started feeding this year I had put a super back on above the crown board for them to clean, only to discover they were busy filling and sealing new stores when I came to swap it out for the feeder :) -- Mark -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:24:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mark Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? In-Reply-To: <43307732.6030900@adelphia.net> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 16:55 -0400, Michael Traynor wrote: > The US government planted it for errosion control and now they can not > control it. Before planting any plant you may want to check online for > its invasiveness. Your neighbors will not take kindly to you when you don't. Ivy is a right royal pain from that point of view, we're busy ripping it out where it's growing in the garden as I'd rather avoid the damage to the old stone retaining walls. -- Mark -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 04:17:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Queen breeding problems & Hygienic testing In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050920201504.02fc2c30@mail.watchtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...populous hives are more likely to > test hygienic than > smaller hives... Then, this is saying that in the freeze kill method, the tests can be compromised due to varying colony strength. I would expect that the 'liquid nitrogen' test is much dependent on colony size as you are killing such a large patch of brood that otherwise might overwhelm a smaller hygienic colony causing it to test negative. Once you get such a large patch of brood killed, division of labor plays a much bigger role. But I have been using the pin prick method and have found that there was no difference in testing results between large colonies and nucs. In fact, a similar number of smaller colonies tested positive as did larger. This is the method Bob Russell from NZ uses and has mentioned that he sees no difference in testing due to strength. Joe __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 08:41:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Hollen, Fred L." Subject: Comb Orientation in Feral Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just a bit to confuse the issue: Yesterday (20 September) I removed a feral colony from between the first-floor ceiling and the second floor of a mid-1800's brick house. It was accessed by removing the floor from above it, as the room below was finished and the floor above needed replacing anyway. The bees' entrance was through cracks in the mortar above a first-floor window, on the eastern side of the house, and they occupied the space between one set of 2X6 joists which ran east-to west, thus perpendicular to the outside wall through which the bees were entering. The combs extended about six feet back into the ceiling-floor area, and for about the first three feet were crosswise, perpendicular to the joists, thus running approximately north-south, and they came up with the floor boards as they were removed. At about the three-foot point, there was a zone of short, curved sections of comb, transitioning into combs about two feet long running parallel to the joists, thus more or less east-west. It was a large colony, and the bees were quite gentle and easy to handle. There was a good bit of capped brood and a small amount of open brood, and still quite a few drones for this late in the season. I did the usual process of tying the combs into frames & dumping the loose bees into the hive body. Regrettably, I did not find the queen; hopefully she was among the mass of bees, so this will be a wait & see situation. I just thought this might "muddy the waters" a bit on the subject of comb orientation. Fred Hollen Shenandoah Valley, Virginia -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 08:40:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: AFB in Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Moreover, we recently discovered a touch of AFB in >> some of my hives, and, guess what? They were the >> Australian package bee group, > hard to blame any race on a case of AFB! AFB happens! It wasn't just one hive. It was several in that group, and I'm not blaming a race. I'm remarking on a source, one that has had intermittent problems with chalkbrood as far back as I can remember. I'm a hobbyist at this point, and can afford to watch and wait. > cioncidence? Maybe ? or maybe not? Interesting but proves what? Doesn't prove a thing, but is basis for some wondering, especially when combined with some knowns, like lack of HYG and susceptibility to another common bee disease that is easily bred out, as demonstrated by CB problems. >> I let it go a bit to see if they cleaned it up. They >> definitely did not. > How many hives would? Quite a few, in my experience, if the genetics are good. Moreover, there was a study from Aus some time back showing how AFB progresses. People tried to generalise it into a universal statement, but, at the time I protested that it did not mach my experience. Maybe their observations were due to disease-susceptible genetics common in some Aus breeds at the time. > I would not let the situation go very long if in my yards! Nor would I, if I were a serious commercial beekeeper. I'm not. Nonetheless, it is interesting to see how many advocate letting mites run their course. HYG bees can handle AFB, especially with a little help. What is the difference? > I have tested what the U.S. queen producers have to offer and have kept > the results to myself. I would lose a bunch of queen producer friends if > my findings were made public! I hear ya! > This week I added two frames of sealed brood full of varroa to the horner > line, Browns bees line, Buckfast line and the Varroa tolerant line from > Italy. Hopefully I will kill off 50% this winter. Maybe stick in a frame or two of AFB, too. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:13:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: AFB and Chalkbrood (Was: AFB in Australia) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen wrote about bees, originally from Austrailia, that showed signd of chalkbrook AND AFB. I have heard it said more than once, by a prominent, now retired bee scientist, that chalkbrook and AFB will not be present in the same hive at the same time; that chalkbrood surpresses AFB. I always wondered about this, thinking that if chalkbrood supresses AFB then there might be some sort of silver bullet in the former for the later. Now I am wondering about Allen's comments which are contrary to what I wrote above. Personally I have never seen both CB and AFB in the same hive, although I must admit that if I see CB I have not been inclined to look closely for AFB. Comments Allen (or others)? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:04:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: AFB and Chalkbrood (Was: AFB in Australia) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Now I am wondering about Allen's comments which are contrary to what I > wrote above. Personally I have never seen both CB > and AFB in the same hive, although I must admit that if I see CB I have > not been inclined to look closely for AFB. I wasn't looking for CB at the time. I'll have to look closer when I get home. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:28:23 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Comb Orientation in Feral Hives Comments: To: "Hollen, Fred L." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It is not so critical to find the queen if you have ample brood and plenty of bees for working while queen gets set up. There are still drones around and they 'should' be enough to carry the colony through winter. If you are really concerned and want to save this line, then donate a lb of bees from each hive that can afford it. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:43:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pencaemawr Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050920063632.0148cec8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer wrote: >> >> breath are not good around bees. > > I always hear this, but I find my breath a useful tool. I recall seeing a TV programme about AHB. The beekeeper opened a hive while wearing a mask with a pipe of several meters long to remove his breath away from the hive. The behavior of the bees was all one could wish for - no aggression, quiet on the frames. He then removed the mask so that his breath was directed towards the bees, with an almost instant change in behaviour,bees flying up and many stings. I don't recall the name of the programme, but I think it was by a professor from central/south America, attempting to breed out the aggresive traits of AHB John Burgess -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:17:55 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Ivy is a right royal pain ... we're busy ripping it out where it's growing in the garden as I'd rather avoid the damage to the old stone retaining walls. I'd like to thank everyone for their input on ivy. I am planning to train it up a tree trunk where I can contain it. Ivy is often used in NY as a ground cover although this practice is not common. It looks pretty on brick walls but I have always wondered about damage to the bricks from the roots. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:20:40 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I came to the conclusion to not use smoke because for several seasons prior I noticed my breath worked better than smoke for working bees... Keith, Does your breath pacify the bees better than smoke? That's hard to believe. I work my bees most of the season w/o smoke but during nectar dearth find smoke indispensible - otherwise bees will sting then. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:22:13 -0400 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Wax worms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert asks "Could you have wax in your house somewhere, in a suitable stat= e to feed waxworms?" Waxworms do not eat or consume wax. Instead, they damage wax while tunneling to eat proteins included with the wax. Mostly, the cocoons left when bees emerge from cells but also pollen. I have seen very tiny live moths two years after the last food was available. I speculate that they were so small because there was little protein available to them as larvae. Nonetheless, they were capable of laying eggs that developed into full size larvae when they had a protein source. I don't know whether waxworm larvae can live on protein sources other than cocoons and pollen, but perhaps someone else on the list can enlighten us. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:12:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Comb Orientation in Feral Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred Hollen wrote: > I did the usual process of tying the combs into frames & dumping the loose > bees into the hive body. I believe there is a better way: http://www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/PENotes/WildColonies.htm (One day I will get around to adding photos - but don't hold your breath!) Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:12:46 -0400 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Chalkbrood in bees from Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The thread on this discussion has been very interesting to me as a few year= s ago I bought 2nd generation Carniolans from Australia from a Canadian queen producer and had severe problems with chalkbrood. I also know of a serious queen breeder in the US who refused to use any more Australia stock for the same reasons. When I reported these experiences to this list on a previous occasion, in an attempt to discourage hobbyists from importing Australian stock, I was roundly booed by some as over-generalizing. On this occasion I will just repeat my position...I do not think that US hobbyists should be of the opinion that they will be improving their genetics by importing stock from Australia. In fact, the opposite (IMHO) is most likely to be true. I think that selected US strains are likely to be the best in the world, and sugges= t that hobbyists stick with them until there is evidence otherwise. On the subject of chalkbrood...most US stock seems highly resistant so US hobbyists have no idea what chalkbrood can do to a hive. To vulnerable stock, chalkbrood can be as devastating as Foulbrood and it is highly contagious. Beware! Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:14:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AFB in Australia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Our packages from a U.S. source (will remain unnamed) has some varroa problems and needed treatment early on proving in our minds the value of mite free packages! Would it be reasonable to expect varroa-free packages from any US source? I would think not. Australian packages may be mite-free initially but it remains to be seen how long they can tolerate varroa. And are they good for northern climates? Of course, this is a quation for any transplant. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:19:14 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Queen breeding problems & Hygienic testing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>...populous hives are more likely to > test hygienic than > smaller hives... I've observed the same. Population size has an impact on priorities. A larger population will devote resources to hygiene. Especially if they are short of space for brood rearing. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:18:09 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland & Dorothy Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Re: Breathing on bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a curious thought as I read all the discussion about breathing on bees: What if the beekeeper is a 'human smoker'? Or are beekeepers by nature non-smokers? Surely somebody has done it, and can add a little diversity to this discussion. I am not about to take it up just to experiment. Leland Hubbell -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:20:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Bees and bad breath In-Reply-To: <1127291008.3931.9.camel@challenger.korenwolf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear BEE-L subscribers: Justin Schmidt was mentioned in the discussion about bees and human breath. Here is his input on the subject: It is human nature to want simple answers for questions. Unfortunately, in biology, often simple answers reveal only part of the story, or worse, can mislead. In the case of breath and the arousal of honey bee attack, one might assume that the active “component” of breath is carbon dioxide. Wrong. There is no magic bullet, be it carbon dioxide or another factor in breath. It turns out that the bees detect a variety of chemicals and properties of breath, and when sufficient number of these signals are present, the threshold for attack behavior is surpassed. Carbon dioxide alone will not cause an attack. This can be demonstrated by blowing air with five percent carbon dioxide at bees at a hive entrance, and no response occurs. But add some small molecules of aldehydes, alcohols, ketones, and other volatile trace components breath, plus humidity and temperature, and you get a response. In this case, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts! In addition, other factors can come into play in the ability of breath stimulus to arouse an attack. These include genetics – Africanized bees generally have much lower thresholds for attack than domestic European bees; time of day; presence of a major nectar flow; size of the colony; recency of disturbance of the colony; whether brood is present or not in the colony; and, importantly, if the stimulus occurs at the colony entrance or away from the colony. Foragers away from the colony have nothing to defend and typically only attempt to escape breath. And, finally, individual bee colonies, like individual people have their own mild, or not-so-mild personalities. All of these factors combine to make conclusions based on anecdotal observations of one or two experiences risky. Overall, human (or dog, or bear, or skunk, etc.) breadth generally does arouse bees, and is the best stimulus I have encountered for agitating a honey bee colony. It is true, I have retired from the constraints of government “service” (service that is for the government, but not necessarily service for science or for the good of society); however, I have not retired from bee research or science. I only wish I were “retired” so that I would have more time to work in many areas with organisms I love. Justin Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* * "...the intensity of the conviction that a hypothesis is true has * no bearing on whether it is true or not." * * Peter Medawar (1979) ******************************************************************* -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:26:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Chalkbrood in bees from Australia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (wrote in reference to Australian bee strains,,,) >.....US strains are likely to be the best > in the world, and suggest that hobbyists > stick with them until there is evidence otherwise. There will much jostling from queen breeders in both countries for the hobbyist market niche in the upcoming years. But evidence has proved, you do NOT need the 'best genetics in the world, when all you need is 'the best genetics for your location'! I suggest that hobbyists stick with breeding their own queens that are better suited and acclimated for their specific environment. Then they can do away with both of you. ;>) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:40:05 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: AFB and Chalkbrood (Was: AFB in Australia) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have heard it said more than once, by a prominent, now retired bee scientist, that chalkbrook and AFB will not be present in the same hive at the same time; that chalkbrood surpresses AFB. I always wondered about this, thinking that if chalkbrood supresses AFB then there might be some sort of silver bullet in the former for the later. I have seen the same comments printed and when I raised this issue with our bee inspectors, they have been told me that they have seen both AFB and CB in the same hive. When I first read this I thought we might have found the silver bullet but, unfortunately, I think not. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:48:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: AFB and Chalkbrood (Was: AFB in Australia) In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE09210142DF1B@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Aaron Morris wrote: >...I have heard it said more than once, by a > prominent, now retired bee scientist, that > chalkbrook and AFB will not be present in the same > hive at the same time; that chalkbrood surpresses > AFB. A. apis, (the fungus that causes chalkbrood) produces a substance with antimicrobial proprieties. The agent found in chalkbrood that suppresses AFB was found to be the fatty acid, linoleic acid. Joe Pennsylvania __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:10:18 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: AFB in Australia MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT While PEI was still entirely mite free, package bees were imported from Australia.. Aside from the import restrictions in place at the time, there was never a problem with these bees, with respect to the fact that we are a more northern climate than they. Of coourse, wintering of bees is always a specialty in Canada. EDW -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:59:56 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Re: Wax worms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought that they preferred brood comb, because they eat the stub cocoon left behind in the cell. They can be raised on cereal flakes (bran?), often for fishing bait, and an acquarium tank of them will make some noise as they "eat", as well as produce a certain odor. I have seen their tracks in honey supers left out, but the damage seems to be minimized by the lack of food in same. C.Crowell Hightstown, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 16:51:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: AFB and Chalkbrood (Was: AFB in Australia) In-Reply-To: <002601c5bef5$142aa050$f253443d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >....I raised this issue with our > bee inspectors, they have been told me that they > have seen both AFB and CB > in the same hive. If the AFB infection preceded the CB infection, this may be the case. But if not,,, what would be the prescribed amount of CB needed to prevent AFB? ;>) Joe __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:30:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Breathing on bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:18 PM 9/21/05 -0400, you wrote: >Just a curious thought as I read all the discussion about breathing on >bees: >What if the beekeeper is a 'human smoker'? >Or are beekeepers by nature non-smokers? I don't think so. >Surely somebody has done it, and can add a little diversity to this >discussion. > I am regrettably, a smoker. I have not noticed any bee-havior any different from what other people have already mentioned on this list. My breath is apparently no more nor no less offensive to bees than that of a non-smoker. I too blow gently on bees to get them to move. They generally just move, they don't flip out, keel over, or otherwise act any differently than they do when they encounter non-smoker's breath. Obviously, I don't smoke with my veil on and I've never blown tobacco smoke on my bees. It's bad for people, it can't be good for bees :) >I am not about to take it up just to experiment. I wouldn't bother. If you're inclined to experiment however, I have heard that bees react adversely to alcohol on one's breath- that might be more to your liking- in the name of science of course :) George- --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:25:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Williamson Subject: Re: Wax worms I have been told by a wax worm breeder (for fish bait) That he uses cornmeal or some other type of protein base if I remember right and beeswax grated and mixed in. I was told that he actually did not have to have beeswax but the wax worms seem to do better on it. A substitute in this case for beeswax was glycerin. That did not make any sense to me so I asked him why. He said the the beeswax was necessary because the worms somehow derived moisture from it. Thats how it was explained to him from a scientist. He said glycerin worked just as well but depended on what the going rate for each was. Robert -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:51:05 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lennard Pisa Subject: The Independent: honey sale UK increases In-Reply-To: <01b601c5bea9$f01c1590$66dffed8@Nemo> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed short article on increasing honey sales in the UK: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/environment/article314261.ece Lennard -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:12:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Wax worms In-Reply-To: <200509220425.j8M4Eh0S017455@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-77827573 At 12:25 AM 9/22/2005, you wrote: >He said glycerin worked just as well but depended on what the >going rate for each was. I wonder if slumgum would work as well? Perhaps there is a market for it as well as dark dirty wax. -Tim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.4/109 - Release Date: 9/21/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:14:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: AFB versus CB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>I have heard it said more than once, by a prominent, now retired bee scientist, that chalk brook and AFB will not be present in the same hive at the same time; that chalkbrood suppresses AFB Generally true, it is interesting that this comes up a couple of weeks after I saw my first exception to the rule since Shim and Dave first brought this factiod to the beekeeping public's attention. (Albany County area, New York State, USofA) After this experience I think "Uncle Shim-sama" would have expressed it with greater accuracy if he had said same frame. In fact, "same frame" might be the actual published statement used, anyone with access to the paper?) That was the case here, it was either or, and apparently was the result of an AFB infected Nuc frames being put into a super with active Chalkbrood infected drawn combs last spring. Who would have won out? My "partner, the law," and I didn't wait to see, I'm sure Shim would have probably been right in the long haul. >>>they have been (sic) told me that they have seen both AFB and CB in the same hive IMHO, You might want to re ask the question and this time ask how many they have seen where both problems were active simultaneously? I think you will get a very different answer. Old un removed Chalkbrood mummies are "past the therapeutic stage" and AFB scale alone is not an active infection. >>>The agent found in chalkbrood that suppresses AFB was found to be the fatty acid, linoleic acid. H. Shimanuki and D. Knox worked on this for some time, as an AFB control, but were unable to come up with a consistently reliable field delivery system as I recall, on the lab bench it works great like so many other things. Just another "silver bullet" that turned out to be only "silver plated" instead. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:25:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: 'human smoker' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This provides me with an opening for a story with a bit of a beekeeper context. 35 years ago I was started in beekeeping by a third generation beekeeper, with a "day job", who ran 300 stationary hives on the weekends. He smoked old style "Camels" like a chimney, wether he was using a smoker or not, and often as not it was not. He would always have his "ciggie" hanging out of one side of his mouth and, somehow, he could shoot a stream of smoke outthe other side, through the veil, with an uncanny degree accuracy. The most amazing part of the whole performance was the little blobs of wax/propolis he would squeeze into all the holes he had burnt in the "tule" skirt on the bottom of his veils. I say veils because he several, each one had more wax "blobs" in it than the next, as a good "Yankee", excessive wax was not a discardable offence in his book. No gloves, no beesuit but he did wear long pants and never got stung anymore than anyone else. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:05:45 -0400 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With regards to my advice to US hobbyists to buy US queens, Waggle suggeste= d that one should raise their own queens from their best colonies and suggested "Then they can do away with both of you. ;>)" I should have made it clear that I do not produce any queens (except accidentally) and buy all my queens from US producers! But, I wish I had a local mentor who could help me through the first few years as more and more I agree that producing ones own queens is the shortest route to better genetics for ones local conditions and beekeeping practices. While I have taken courses and think I have a good 'book' understanding of what to do, I am certain that actually being successful is far more difficult. I am especially wary of having good drone stock as unti= l 2004 I used fluvalinate and coumaphous for perhaps 15 years so my brood combs are undoubtedly contaminated. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:08:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: AFB in yard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seems that I am not particularly sensitive to criticism, so had no problem sharing my experience with Aus bees and a cluster of AFB breakdown with the list recently. Not everyone is willing to come out on this topic, though. This (below) came to me direct. The experience shared is not uncommon, so it seems to me that offering it anonymously (for him), along with my comments, will spare the author some pain, and also bring this very real problem up for discussion once again, so that all can benefit form the insights of the list. Here's my advice. I'm sure there will be others who disagree. allen (Ducking and running) ---- > Read your comments on AFB presence in hives. I have lost about twenty > colonies in a yard in the past year and a half due to AFB. I have three > hives remaining, one a swarm that volunteered in an empty hive set up by > the beehouse this past spring. I was thinking of completely eradicating > the three remaining colonies later this fall If they are not badly diseased, I would let them live, and medicate them, using either oxtet or Tylosin - whatever is indicated locally. Assuming that it is done properly, they should survive if they do not have any or much disease. If there is more than a few cells of AFB, though, that should be removed, although I understand that Tylosin really cleans up hives. > and trying to sterilize the colonies through irradiation and, in fact, > sterilizing all the equipment from the yard via irradidiation. That's a very good idea, if available. > From your comments, would you advocate continuing these three hives to see > if they might be AFB tollerant because of hygenic behavior? Frankly, I am not too optimistic about being able to know that on a few hives with nothing to compare to, without considerable experience and scientific help. Nonetheless, I also think that your odds of ever becoming totally free of AFB is low, even if you sterilize and medicate, etc. AFB is out there in most US localities, and will come back, especially if you have susceptible bees. IMO, the best you can hope is to stay ahead of it, hopefully to the extent that you never, or seldom see cells of AFB in your hives. HYG and sterlizing the empty equipment every year or so -- by radiation (forget about lye and other time-wasting make-work ideas) -- should keep you happy. As I say, an occcasional, intelligent use of medication can help, but hopefully, with good stock, regular inspection and routine sterilization by radiation, you should be just fine. > If I can't irradiate the hives to sterilize them I'm looking at burning > all of the interior equipment, comb, and stores and scorching the hive > bodies / supers before using again. That works. > I can move these suspect hives to an area/yard where they would be fairly > isolated from any other known colonies around. Feral colonies are fairly > rare here but might be a transmission factor to other colonies. You pretty well have to figure that, unless you are *really* isolated that AFB is nearby somewhere, and if you don't see it, it is because you have good bees. I would not choose my yards with a primary goal of avoiding others, although that can be a consideration. With good management and good bees, many beekeepers do just fine in areas known to harbour AFB. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:34:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Slumgum In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050922080607.05b559f0@mail.watchtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim Arheit wrote: > Perhaps there is a market > for slumgum as well as dark dirty wax. > One use of both slumgum and dirty wax is to make fire-starters. You pour the melted slumgum or wax over pinecones, insert about an inch of candle wick, and you've got a fire starter that you can sell for fifty cents to a dollar. They burn a long time and work very well to start fires in fireplaces. With the price of fuel this year I think there are going to be a lot of fires started in fireplaces so should be a good/great market out there. Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, AL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:07:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard A Cartwright Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Angela Copi Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? In-Reply-To: <20050921.081857.27977.535145@webmail05.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >I'd like to thank everyone for their input on ivy. I am planning to train >it up a tree trunk where I can contain it. Ivy is often used in NY as a >ground cover although this practice is not common. It looks pretty on >brick walls but I have always wondered about damage to the bricks from the >roots. Your plan may yet contain a flaw or two. English ivy has two growth forms, a juvenile form and an adult form. The lobe-leafed ground cover is the juvenile growth. If the ivy grows up somthing, it will eventually produce adult growth in the form of branches sticking out from the plant with unlobed leaves. It is this adult growth which produces flowers. Unfortunately, that adult growth typically takes 15-20 years to form, so it will be a long wait to get nectar from ivy. Second, is that those flowers become berries, which birds eat and spread the seeds far and wide. In that sense, there is no containing ivy. Just the same, having English ivy on the trees is rather common here, especially in older neighborhoods, and I rather enjoy it. It is an entomological zoo when in bloom and the berries are a great favorite of the robins on their migration north in late winter. Good luck finding that perfect bee vine, Keith Copi Richmond, Virginia _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:16:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>If the ivy grows up somthing, it will eventually produce adult growth in the form of branches sticking out from the plant with unlobed leaves. It is this adult growth which produces flowers. I observed these branches with unlobed leaves on ivy covered pines at the Biltmore estate (www.biltmore.com) in North Carolina. I took a step back at first because they resembled poison ivy leaves so much. >>Unfortunately, that adult growth typically takes 15-20 years to form... Really? Bomber! I checked out the ivy on the stone walls at Biltmore as well. It had flowers as well although I did not see the long branches with unlobed leaves. Could ivy produce flowers sooner in optimum conditions? >>Second, is that those flowers become berries, which birds eat and spread the seeds far and wide. In that sense, there is no containing ivy. I know. Then, again, many other plants spread by seeds... maples, oaks, poison ivy... Anyone know of any 'nice' honey vine? ;-)) I am willing to plant ivy as long as it is legal and I believe it is in New York. >>It is an entomological zoo when in bloom and the berries are a great favorite of the robins on their migration north in late winter. So it has more benefits. I've seen birds' nests in ivy on walls. And birds often use ivy on vertical structures for shelter from the winter cold. I have placed 2 ivy cuttings in pots. I expect them to root well (the cuttings had baby roots) and will plant them at the base of a tree that is not desirable but has a strong horizontal branch that serves well as a support for a swing... >>Good luck finding that perfect bee vine, I'll take suggestions... :) In the meantime, I am learning a lot about plants. Again, I'd like to thank everyone for their input! Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:23:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Angela Copi Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? In-Reply-To: <20050922.101653.296.557305@webmail33.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Really? Bomber! I checked out the ivy on the stone walls at Biltmore as >well. It had flowers as well although I did not see the long branches with >unlobed leaves. Could ivy produce flowers sooner in optimum conditions? Was the ivy on the walls Boston ivy rather than English ivy? Boston ivy has grape-like leaves which line themselves up against the wall almost like shingles. This is the ivy of the "ivy league" colleges. I have never observed it, but have heard that bees work it well. Also of interest, I just found a reference that says that if you take your cuttings from the adult growth of the plant, the plant will stay in that mode as it grows, giving you an ivy which blooms much sooner than the 15-20 years. I still like porcelain berry as a bee plant, all things considered. The only perenial native vine I can think of that is reported to be a good honey plant is poison ivy. I'm guessing you don't want to propagate that, and besides, it blooms in the Spring which (I'm guessing) is not the niche you are looking to fill. Keith Copi Richmond, VA > _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:07:37 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: AFB and Chalkbrood (Was: AFB in Australia) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 " A. apis, (the fungus that causes chalkbrood) produces a substance with antimicrobial proprieties. The agent found in chalkbrood that suppresses AFB was found to be the fatty acid, linoleic acid. " endquote I think that the antimicrobial properties must not be effective on the EFB bacteria. I have frequently seen hives dying with both EFB and=20 chalkbrood. Both seem to be opportunistic when bees are stressed. I also associate both with low adult bee numbers. Stan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:39:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: AFB and Chalkbrood (Was: AFB in Australia) In-Reply-To: <002e01c5bfd2$d0089d30$ac289aa5@stanshoney> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...I think that the antimicrobial properties must not > be effective on the EFB bacteria. Here's some stuff: http://makeashorterlink.com/?U3D0219DB Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:41:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cesar Flores Subject: Breathing on bees In-Reply-To: <200509220401.j8M3wZAD016011@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beekeepers managing AHB and interested in controlling response from human breath may be interested in an 'Avalung'. The Avalung is a vest with a breathing device that redirects breath and disperses it behing the person wearing it. This was developed by Black Diamond to allow people to breathe while trapped under compressed snow in an avalanche. A description can be found at: http://www.avalanche.org/~lsafc/TUTORIAL/EQUIP.HTM Buy it at: http://www.bdel.com/gear/avalung_ii.php about $120 I intend to try one during my next AHB session, but would be interested in any comments/reviews from other users. Cesar Flores __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:34:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Breathing on bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cesar Flores wrote, "Beekeepers managing AHB .. may be interested in an = 'Avalung'...I intend to try one during my next AHB session...." =20 Hi Cesar, =20 Where do you keep bees that has you considering investing $120 for an = "Avalung". Are AHB that established in your area to warrant such an = investment? Might I consider a Christmas present for beekeepers in the = Northeast USA? =20 Sincerely, Aaron Morris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:15:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lloyd & all > But, I wish I had a local mentor who could help me through > the first few years Not wishing to attract flak here, but I reckon you need someone who is not local, that can identify some of the errors that have crept into US beekeeping. Let us examine comb replenishment... Many US beekeepers lay claim to having much comb that is old and 'hard as boards', indeed they consider such comb as a capital asset. This old comb represses the vigour of colonies, so in order to keep up the cropping ability, they select strains of bee that produce very large numbers of bees, instead of replacing the old comb. The need for high numbers of bees leads to a requirement to have a larger winter population than the bees would choose for themselves and this in turn leads to unstable wintering and huge consumption of winter stores. The winter stores have to be fed to the bees, which is time consuming and costly. It is not the number of bees in a colony that gains the maximum crop, but the number of bee foraging journeys. A tough bee that can work longer hours per day and still live for more working days than an Italian bee can gather a crop just as large, but with many fewer bees in the box. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 06:24:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Off-Topic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This was developed by Black Diamond to allow people to breathe while > trapped under compressed snow in an avalanche. Excuse me for being off-topic, BUT, get it while you can. I see a very limited market for this device. WHO??? is going out skiing and planning to be under an avalanche later the same day? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:33:30 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: queens for local conditions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>A tough bee that can work longer hours per day and still live for more working days than an Italian bee can gather a crop just as large, but with many fewer bees in the box. Dave, I assume you are referring to the AMM bee that's kept by many in the UK. Does anyone keep the AMM bee in the US? I'd interested to know about their experiences. In my area the Italian bee seems to do best. I've had some experience with NWCs, purchased from a reputable source, but found them to be very variable. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:43:27 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Is ivy a decent nectar source? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Was the ivy on the walls Boston ivy rather than English ivy? I am familiar with Boston ivy and the vines I saw at Biltmore were English ivy for sure. >>...if you take your cuttings from the adult growth, the plant will stay in that mode as it grows... Very interesting. I took 10" cuttings from blooming plants. It will be interesting to find out when they start blooming. >>I still like porcelain berry as a bee plant... The more I look the more I agree with you. It seems to bloom over a long period at the time of the year when not much else is in bloom. I think I'll try it as well. And passion fruit vines if they prove hardy for my area. >>The only perenial native vine ... reported to be a good honey plant is poison ivy. You are right, Keith. I had a lot of poison ivy when we bought the house and have eliminated all of it. I get a rash if I get its oils on my skin. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 06:02:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Off-Topic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > WHO??? is going out skiing and planning to > be under an avalanche later the same day? > Nobody, yet still it happens on occasion. Nobody deserves or plans to die under an avalanche, but it happens. The trick is to realize it can happen and be prepared for the possibility. Once your under 10,20,30 or more feet of snow it's to late to say "Darn, I should have been ready for this" or "I never thought this would happen to Me". Avalanches also nail and take a toll on snow machiners from high marking. A dangerous field of play. As far as skiers getting nailed by an avalanche, back country skiing or heli skiing are probably the most susceptible. Resorts do a fairly good job of avalanche control. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:33:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queens for local conditions In-Reply-To: <20050923.063336.5234.570695@webmail35.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar > I assume you are referring to the AMM bee that's kept by many in > the UK. I was not specifically referring to AMM, but to hardier more energetic bees than Italian types. AMM does fit the long hours and long lived situation, but you will not find much evidence of AMM in US, as many of the original genes of AMM have been eliminated... Only 3% of genes in US stocks can be attributed to AMM, see... http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/jee1995.htm Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:10:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: porcelain berry In-Reply-To: <20050923.064405.5234.570860@webmail35.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Looked up porcelain berry on the internet and it was listed as a very invasive plant. Sure you want to get that stuff started in your area? Be environmentally aware. Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:18:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: queens for local conditions In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-60D16DC3 > leads to unstable wintering and huge consumption of winter stores. > >The winter stores have to be fed to the bees, which is time consuming and >costly. Not really sure what "a huge consumption" means. My North American mongrels need about 80 pounds to make the winter. Some have to be fed a gallon or so in spring. As far as feeding them their winter stores...I don't think so. Most of my bees make their winter stores. Only some have to be fed a bit. Certainly not massive, expensive feeding. I believe in large populous colonies to properly winter, harvest large crops, and overwinter well. I think it the proper bee for this northern climate where I keep bees. So, since many yards averaged 200 pounds plus this summer, with some 300 pounders, and since they made their own winter feed, I guess I rather like my North American, all mixed up, power house, Heinz 57 Variety mongrels. You knew I'd say something, didn't you Dave? But, you have your bee for the UK Midlands, and I have mine for Vermont. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.11.5/110 - Release Date: 9/22/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:16:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Re: 'Bad' breath. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > Waldemar > > > I would like to mask my breath with some scent/flavor that would put the > bees in better disposition without having to use smoke during nectar > dearth. > Simple, and it works well, chew propolis. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:39:50 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: USDA Nation Plant Database In-Reply-To: <20050923221044.28522.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://plants.usda.gov -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:36:51 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queens for local conditions In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050923195925.0167feb0@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike & all I'm not 'knocking' US methods, merely pointing out that there are other approaches or reasons behind the situation as it has developed. You and your bees are not typical... You are very heavily involved in using local conditions to 'mould' the bee that you use. Many beekeepers in US would do much better if they followed your principles, rather than buying queens produced in remote places. Your bee would not be able do as much in my locality, as there is very disjointed nectar 'flow' (trickle). Similarly my bees in your area may gather more honey than they do in UK (because of the more continuous nectar), but are unlikely to do well because they are tuned to conditions that occur here. > My North American mongrels > need about 80 pounds to make the winter. My colonies need about 26 pounds for winter, all of which they gather for themselves. They may get a pint or so of syrup in February to 'wake them up' and one year out of five they will need feeding during June for survival, but that is all the feed they get (apart from those colonies that are deliberately used for raising drones or queens). Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:06:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This old comb represses the vigour of colonies, so in order to keep up the > cropping ability, they select strains of bee that produce very large > numbers of bees, instead of replacing the old comb. I was going to let this pass, but I'd hate to let any innocent newbies reading that this thing this is so cut and dried. If this were not a genteel list, and if I did not have so much respect for Dave, I'd say "Bullshit", but it is, and I do, so I won't. > The need for high numbers of bees leads to a requirement to have a larger > winter population than the bees would choose for themselves and this in > turn leads to unstable wintering and huge consumption of winter stores. It is hard to argue with this, other than to say that I have used new comb and very old comb in large numbers of colonies, with many differing strains of bee, under many varied conditions and can say that, in my roughly 50,00 hive-years of experience, I have observed that old comb (comb in perfect shape, not deformed old garbage) is definitely better for my purposes than no comb (only foundation), and much better for wintering in my area, than new comb. Beyond that, I have not seen anything to indicate to me that really dark combs are better or worse than newer combs, but, given a choice, for most purposes, I'd choose combs a year or two old that have been used for brood at least once. They have a longer life ahead, are lighter, and usually have better frames. > The winter stores have to be fed to the bees, which is time consuming and > costly. There are two main reasons for fall feeding: 1.) The honey was taken away and 2.) Insurance. In many areas, it is hard to know when the last flow is over. Often all the honey is pulled in anticipation of another flow, and, Ooooops! there is a frost. End of the show. Feeding time! Also, in many areas, the honey is not ideal for wintering and removing it does the bees a favour, assuming it is replaced promptly with good syrup. In any large operation, there is a range of bees. Some do well,, some don't. Feeding all ensures that the light ones survive. Moreover, feed is usually much cheaper than honey, and the exchange of feed for honey, therefore benefits the beekeeper's relationship with his bank. > It is not the number of bees in a colony that gains the maximum crop, but > the number of bee foraging journeys. A tough bee that can work longer > hours per day and still live for more working days than an Italian bee can > gather a crop just as large, but with many fewer bees in the box. We agree on that, but I am not sure what that means for most of us. We also agree that using a bee that is suited to the area and the management system. What is lost on most hobbyists and non-US beekeepers is the vast array of choices available to the knowledgeable beekeeper. It may be confusing to the tyro, but the commercial guys know where to buy bees that suit them. Just ask Bob. As for buying from distant suppliers, the best bee I have found for my area and management comes from Gus in Hawaii. Many of my Alberta fellows have independently have arrived at the same conclusion, and it is tough to get them when we want them. FWIW, the Hawaiian carnies are quite conservative in winter, yet productive and disease-resistant. The other bees I like (sorry Dave) is the typical Australian Italian -- warts and all. I think I wrote here a few years back about the bees that I had that had been adapted to the region. they were perfect welfare bees. They met the description of the bees Dave wants, but they almost broke me. They did all the bee stuff just fine -- they wintered economically and well, resisted disease, etc. etc. -- but they made very little surplus. And for those wondering, yes, I have done lots of tests with new comb and old comb and can find virtues in both. I should mention, though, that I have not, and never will, use coumaphos, and only very sparing amounts of Apistan. I think this is an important thing to state, since, for those who have used those toxins, or are buying comb of unknown origin, old comb is a very different question. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 06:54:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: queens for local conditions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You Wrote about comb rotation: ...I'd hate to let any innocent newbies > reading that this thing this is so cut and dried. >...if I did not have so much respect for Dave, I'd > say "&$@!?&^+$#@",,,, First,,, Let's have a little respect for the youngsters on this list and keep it clean here!!!! Secondly,,, Newbees should know that comb rotation is an essential part of beekeeping. Dave has made an excellent comment about the need to replace cold comb. The rotation out of old, damaged and excess drone should be included in routine yearly beekeeping practices. Here's some stuff: Effects of comb age on honey bee colony growth and brood survivorship: http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/Publications/effects_comb_age.pdf __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 15:20:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queens for local conditions In-Reply-To: <008701c5c100$74e93b10$53a02fd1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen First may I qualify what has been previously said, I certainly am not trying to mislead anyone... New beekeeper or old, there is virtually nothing in beekeeping that is 'cut and dried'. This list is for 'informed discussion' and as such can expect differing points of view. So under what circumstances have you found that old comb increases the vigour of the bees using it ?? I can't compete in terms of hive years... if you are talking about full sized colonies, my figure would only be just over 3,000, however if you counted the mating nucs and assessment colonies then the figure would rise to 15,000 or so... When you consider that I also spent around a hundred hours a week running my bee equipment business, that comes down to a reasonable chunk of relevant experience, granted all of that experience in the field of bee breeding and queen raising rather than honey production and was only on about 35 sites, all of which are within 30 miles of where I currently live. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 17:13:50 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: queens for local conditions In-Reply-To: <200509240400.j8O3lTqq014078@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From: Michael Palmer >Not really sure what "a huge consumption" means. My North American mongrels >need about 80 pounds to make the winter. > The old beekeepers who used amm here beginning to middle of last century left 12 kg (26 pounds) for winter. With my Buckfast-mongrel bees I leave 20 kg sugar. I'm talking dry weight sugar. I'm on lat 60, same as Anchorage, so we got a long dark period here. But the long dark winter keep the hives broodless for a longer time, and they do not consume much until brood rearing starts up when light comes back in spring. Vermont is on the same latitude as Italy, with a much shorter winter. I believe the bees react to light more than temp. Your bees keep brooding later in autumn and start up earlier in spring. They go into winter stronger, and need more feed than mine during winter because they start up while it's still winter temp outside. Some of the bees I used earlier didn't start any brood production until they could fly on the first flowers in spring. They wouldn't use up winter feed for brood, they waited until there was nectar available. This was safe Buckfast bees, you didn't have to worry much about them in spring. But they didn't produce much on the early honey flow, they built up in time for the main flow. So for some years now I have been selecting for fast spring development and general vigor rather than uniformity and quietness. This has resulted in 30% more honey, but also the need for checking them through spring and feeding those needing it. I also need more supers on the hives to give them space. Extra work and material, but I find it worth it. My average is 200 pounds for the last 3 years. From: Dave Cushman >The need for high numbers of bees leads to a requirement to have a larger >winter population than the bees would choose for themselves and this in turn >leads to unstable wintering and huge consumption of winter stores. I must disagree here, Dave. The larger winter population will decrease food consumption until bees start brood rearing in spring. It's a matter of volume to surface ratio, each bee will need to generate less heat during winter in the larger cluster. It's another matter that amm winters far better than ligustica, but that is not due to the size of cluster. >The winter stores have to be fed to the bees, which is time consuming and >costly. With the present difference between sugar and honey price here, I will gladly do the exchange. But the most important for me is to winter the bees on clean stores. This autumn we had a late flow of honey dew from conifers. Luckily I had started winter feeding before that, otherwise I would have many dead hives next spring. >A tough bee that can work longer hours per day and still live for more >working days than an Italian bee can gather a crop just as large, but with >many fewer bees in the box In the UK that might be true. It's not always here, I have had both types of bees. In a situation where you have abundance of nectar easily available and warm sunny weather, you just can't beat the numbers. I have had lines of darker bees that fly in colder temps, got one breeder that actually flew when it was drizzling this summer. They always have a crop, even on a bad summer. But on a good summer they will not reach what the more yellow hives produce. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:32:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So under what circumstances have you found that old comb increases the > vigour of the bees using it ?? I don't think I did. > I can't compete in terms of hive years... As I said, Dave, I very much respect you and your insights, and I am sure that they apply where you are. I am not challenging your wisdom or your qualifications, but rather pointing out that I have had ample opportunity to confirm your conclusions, and have not. My point is that they appear not to be universal.. (Not directed at Dave) -- I put a lot of thought and care into what I write, so I hope people are putting a similar amount of thought and care into reading it. I notice that a lot of people just skim and catch a few words and phrases, and think they know what I said, but miss my meaning entirely. I'm sorry, but I am writing a clearly as I can. I often re-write several times and think carefully before sending, so would it be too much to ask people to read it several times and think before dashing off a reply? To add to what I said previously, I'll mention that, some time back, on this list, someone pointed out that bees seem to prefer new comb for brood rearing and darker comb for honey storage. That has been my experience. An important consideration in our area is that, without some dark comb in brood chambers, bees in our area may not store enough feed for the winter. Moreover, when drawing new comb, if they do not complete the job, the hive is at risk in winter. I think we are all agreed that comb a year or two old is ideal. I also think that is what I said. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:36:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Newbees should know that comb rotation is an essential part of beekeeping. Comb rotation is pretty well unavoidable. I always added 10% new foundation every year, and that was about ideal IMO. If I were using Checkmite+ or other such toxins, I'd know I should double that rate, but I also know I'd be risking a cost in terms of production *in my area*. > http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/Publications/effects_comb_age.pdf Thanks. Nice reference. Pretty well confirms what I already figured. When I look at a study like that and figure in the economic realities of commercial beekeeping, I still get the same answers. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 10:06:18 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: New combs versus old combs(was queens for local conditions) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > To add to what I said previously, I'll mention that, some time back, on > this > list, someone pointed out that bees seem to prefer new comb for brood > rearing and darker comb for honey storage. That has been my experience. This is not my experience. For most that I speak to here in Australia, all say that queens will lay in a dark comb before laying in a white comb if given a choice. In late summer early autumn, a white comb in a brood nest will actually act as a barrier to the queen laying in the bottom box. She will often only lay on the side of the white comb she is on. She will not cross it to lay in dark combs on the other side of the brood box. We are using excluders. Sometimes in spring I will lift the excluder and let the queen run in the second box before again putting her down and putting in the excluder. Here again, my experience is that the queen will lay in the dark combs before laying in the new white comb. When I talk about new white comb, it is a foundation that has been put in above a queen excluder, the bees have drawn it out and capped it. I have extracted it. This is the way I draw combs to use in rotating out older combs from the brood box. I paint code the top bar so I know how old the frame is in terms of years. I am in favour of rotating out combs from the brood nest and it is a common recommendation here in Australia for helping with disease control. The best time to put down white combs in spring when the bees are in expansion mode. I know many successful beekeepers who will not put down white comb after Christmas as they find the queens will not or a very slow in starting to lay in these combs. On certain conditions I have put down white combs after Christmas but it is on a good honey flow with good quality pollen coming in. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:27:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: queens for local conditions In-Reply-To: <43356D2E.50502@algonet.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-65242D9 > So for some years now I have been >selecting for fast spring development and general vigor rather than >uniformity and quietness. This has resulted in 30% more honey, but also >the need for checking them through spring and feeding those needing it. >I also need more supers on the hives to give them space. Extra work and >material, but I find it worth it. My average is 200 pounds for the last >3 years. P-O Gustafsson Well, that's exactly what have been doing....with the same results. I won't even consider a colony as a breeder if they don't have at least 9 frames of brood at Dandelion bloom. Our early flows are too important to lose to colonies just building up. In fact, my bees were capping white honey before Dandelion, and many had a medium when the Dandelion did bloom. I also find that many of these colonies continue this level of brood production until late summer, giving them large populations to take advantage of the Fall flow for winter stores. Never any worry about these colonies getting stuck on one side of the hive in winter, and their remaining stores on the other. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.11.5/110 - Release Date: 9/22/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:27:42 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: AFB and Chalkbrood (Was: AFB in Australia) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan wrote > I think that the antimicrobial properties must not be effective on the > EFB bacteria. I have frequently seen hives dying with both EFB and > chalkbrood. Have a look at www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/03-028.pdf Trevor Weatherhead ASUTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:00:22 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: New combs versus old combs(was queens for local conditions) In-Reply-To: <002101c5c164$f593ed50$4680453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can tell you that at least in horizontal expansion hive like TBHs, the comb defines the brood nest is the spring. The queen will not lay in new comb UNTIL she has laid up the darker comb first. This is one of the tricks of brood nest expansion in TBHs, when she starts to really lay up again, place empty combs in the center of the brood nest so the nest can expand, because the queen won't lay beyond the boundaries of the current brood nest unless and until the brood nest is choked full. I personally believe this is how the evolution of the bee has enabled colonies to mature slowly as needed and not overdo themselves first year, and why old feral nests are often HUGE and new ones usually much smaller. It gives the nest a chance to buildup slowly the first year so they aren't over populated for their summer and potential winter food reserves because as a colony (since colonies usually throw of swarms after 1st and 2nd flows) they can't prepare as thoroughly. 2nd year colonies, whether swarm, packages, NUCS or splits usually perform better after they have a chance to over winter. They get that early buildup for the spring flow and all the food reserves that they can pack away. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:43:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The winter stores have to be fed to the bees, which is time consuming and costly. True but what is the cost of a winter deadout? For the last month and for the next month I am checking, testing, combining and certainly feeding if needed to prepare hives for winter. Startling fact: Hives going to winter in California need more winter stores than those wintering in Missouri! >It is not the number of bees in a colony that gains the maximum crop, but the number of bee foraging journeys. Interesting hypothesis and one my friend Allen Dick agrees with. Interesting! I go with the old masters on the point. quote Lloyd Seachrist (USDA top gun) and author of the book "Honey Getting" "Fill a box with bees and the bees will fill the box with honey" I keep hives with high populations of bees. A hobby beekeeper I had sold his first two hives called to tell me a storm had blown over a couple of my hives. He said he had never seen a hive so strong. Said he was only able to get one set back up before he quit. Its no wonder my friend Keith says he does not need smoke. Leave alone hives normally has around 30,000 bee populations. Try working a two queen hive with an honest 100,000 population without a smoker? My production hives run 60,000 plus in two deep and without supers will not fit in both boxes when supers are pulled. I have learned a method to maintain the 60,000 population even when a flow is not on which is what I do if I need super strong hives later on. Also got methods to lose old bees and reduce the hive polulation fast if needed. Without beekeeper manuipulations (feeding & open brood nest) hives do not reach max populations. My years of Florida beekeeping has shown bees need tricked into build up for a major flow! Otherwise the bees keep a small cluster and ONLY build up during a flow raising useless bees which will become foragers AFTER (in most cases) the honey flow is OVER! Research of (Farrar)has shown that one large hive will out produce the same number of bees in two hives . The reasoning is mostly to do with care of brood is easier with the large hive and more bees are free to forage than in the two smaller hives. The evaporation of honey is easier with the large hive. Farrar made other less important points but the above two were most important. >A tough bee that can work longer hours per day and still live for more working days than an Italian bee can gather a crop just as large, but with many fewer bees in the box. The above is not what the research has shown in the U.S.. I have never heard of a bee refered to as *tough*. Prolific trumps living longer in my book! The Italian bee is known among commercial beekeepers the world over as their number one choice and the world's top producer of a honey crop. To argue otherwise is foolish in my opinion. I have got and keep NWC and carniolans. Not even a close second! Bees are bees and they are inclined to hoard honey! I make the most of the hoarding behavior (if I want the honey). On A.mm: Some of my my first hives in Florida were A.mm.. Although Dave might say these were not the *pure A.mm* the old timers said they were. I had hives of so called A.mm in Kansas and also in Missouri. Kept mostly as a novelty as they had many undesirable traits. Tracheal mites took the last few hives in the middle 80's. All were poor honey producers! Prone to sting and the hardest bees to work on a cloudy day. Also I never kept A.mm hives in shade! These are only my observations and others could vary! In the late 50's through the 80's queens were sold in the U.S. as A.mm. >From my year on the Irish beekeeping list I realize saying unflattering things about their beloved A.mm is not popular but those are my observations! Even our beloved Brother Adams views on A.mm was frowned upon in the Irish list! Brother Adam thought that A.mm in its pure state needed improvement. I concur! When was the last time you tried a bee other than A.mm Dave? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:30:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: New combs versus old combs(was queens for local conditions) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> list, someone pointed out that bees seem to prefer new comb for brood >> rearing and darker comb for honey storage. That has been my experience. > > This is not my experience. For most that I speak to here in Australia, > all > say that queens will lay in a dark comb before laying in a white comb if > given a choice. Okay. Sorry. Language fouls us up. I said, "new" comb, not white comb. In my experience, if the bees are drawing new comb in the brood nest, it will, in my experience, usually be filled with eggs before it is even complete. As for older white comb, it must be used with judgement. I should say that, in Alberta, it is prized for super comb, but I always liked some dark comb in the supers, since the bees seem to be drawn to it, compared to white comb. > In late summer early autumn, a white comb in a brood nest will actually > act as a barrier to the queen laying in the bottom box. She > will often only lay on the side of the white comb she is on. She will not > cross it to lay in dark combs on the other side of the brood box. We are > using excluders. When I talk about new white comb, it is a foundation that > has been put in above a queen excluder, the bees have drawn it out and > capped it. I have extracted it. Yup, I agree, especially if that white comb has been dried out. Sticky white comb, though, stands a better chance of quick acceptance, in my experience. > The best time to put down white combs in spring when the bees are in > expansion mode. Agreed. That is the chance to do things that would cause trouble if done at other times in the season. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:33:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: New combs versus old combs(was queens for local conditions) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The queen will not lay in new comb UNTIL she has laid up the darker comb > first. Are you meaning newly drawn comb, or white combs from before? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:04:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: AFB and Chalkbrood (Was: AFB in Australia) In-Reply-To: <006401c5c170$53fd3c10$4680453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Trevor Your link... www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/03-028.pdf is both interesting and heavy reading :-) In places where it refers to specific disease organisms Example... New South Wales (MN 00/B062) Are the characters in brackets, a reference to the disease outbreak or are they references to a specifically identified strain of the bacteria concerned in the outbreak ??? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:13:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, "Queens for local conditions" does not mean the queens have to be from the area. Bees are bees! Some are a joy to work and other lines area a pain. All races have got their pro's & con's. In my * opinion* all the current lines being sold in the U.S. reflect what the queen producer is selecting for. Why would they not? I would love to use names here but will stick to my rules. The top three queen producers selling Italian lines place prolific and honey production at the top of their selection criteria. I have listened to many Sue Cobey talks and what she said on what she selects for in her breeder queens . Plus what the other carnilolan sellers sellect for honey production is say 5 or 6 on the list. Now if you requeen every year as many commercial beekeepers do and your business is only honey production (mine is not) then which of the above races do you go with? I might add you will get bees which vary in gentleness, honey production etc. if you are only raising queens from survivors. After years of raising survivors and you get a line able to tolerate the mites then selection for other traits can be done from those survivors. If you have been using NWC or Italian queens from U.S. queen producers and you switch all your bees to Russian (unless one of the decent hybrids I have discussed before but those are less varroa tolerant from my tests) I think you might be disappointed in the bee you are working with. Those which have switched their whole operation to Russian/Russian report many traits they do not care for or *are not used to*. Reason is simple! The lines have not been selected for the traits they are used to seeing from the NWC & Italian lines. Keeping Russian lines needs a management change . I do not care for the heavy use of propolis by many Russian and survivor lines. I guess I am not used to the propolis use after my other lines. getting supers off is a pain and upsets the bees as frames are pulled up from below! Also a problem with the lower box when removing the top brood box. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:18:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, > Its no wonder my friend Keith says he does not need smoke. Leave alone = hives > normally has around 30,000 bee populations. Try working a two queen = hive > with an honest 100,000 population without a smoker? My production = hives run > 60,000 plus in two deep and without supers will not fit in both boxes = when > supers are pulled. I have learned a method to maintain the 60,000 = population > even when a flow is not on which is what I do if I need super strong = hives > later on. Also got methods to lose old bees and reduce the hive = polulation > fast if needed. >=20 Very impressive!!! Good to know I am a friend. Your not the only one with large populations = of bees in the colonies you keep. You could have said basically what you = said above without taking an unjustified stab at me and my name, or were = you referring to another Keith that does not use (need) smoke any = longer?=20 So you really think I leave alone the colonies I keep? The one statement = about two queen hives with large populations is in my apiaries and even = though they do have large populations as you state there are quite a few = stings that are generated but still with no smoke I notice better = results working them. Right now as winter is fast approaching the = colonies I keep are still populous. Many more than just you have tricks = to boost or reduce populations as needed in a colony.=20 If we are friends you should know more about me or at least ask me = things before using me for a poor example in a public forum when in = reality the statement you made above is total conjecture and not very = realistic to the real picture of my beekeeping. You could call me and = apologize and learn more about me besides what you read in these emails, = which are in my opinion very impersonal. Although these emails are = impersonal they do get a little personal when you make such big = assumptions as you did with the statements above. I never said I did not need smoke I said I no longer use smoke, in = simple terms there are better ways to manage bees than with smoke. Please call first and get your facts straight; 907-242-0588 907-688-0588 Queens for local conditions in my opinion are just what should be used = and this in fact is just what I am focusing on in my breeding of bees = and my work on improving my beekeeping in Alaska and for others in the = future. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:30:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As we say down here in hurricane country, "chacun =E0 son cheval". You = pays your money and you takes your choice. Walter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 07:28:13 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: AFB and Chalkbrood (Was: AFB in Australia) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave wrote > Are the characters in brackets, a reference to the disease outbreak or are > they references to a specifically identified strain of the bacteria > concerned in the outbreak ??? I will check with the author and try to get you an answer. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 18:23:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Keith said: I never said I did not need smoke I said I no longer use smoke, in simple terms there are better ways to manage bees than with smoke. Please call first and get your facts straight; I guess I misunderstood what you meant but here is exactly what you said in your post 9-21-05 6:48 AM. "My smoker is now amongst other items in my beekeeping museum collection to be handed down in antiquity" "I wonder how many other useless beekeeping items there are in the world of beekeeping" I never met a commercial beekeeper that did not keep a lit smoker around when working yards of bees. Even suggesting new beekeepers might work their hives without the use of a smoker causes me concern. To late to light a smoker after the bees get riled and serious stinging has began. I ALWAYS teach new beekeepers to smoke a sting (even in a suit) to mask the alarm odor. If you want to work your bees in the nude (we have a nudist beekeeper in our club) or without smoke or protection is fine with all on the list. I worry about the newbeeks! I for one do not consider the smoker an obsolete piece of equipment. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 19:35:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: fungi on tops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have been seeing a fungi growing and ruining hive tops in several yards. The fungi is orange in color and eats up the wood. The tops ( migratory) most effected came from Mann Lake about three years ago. My partner and I both placed a alrge order when the lids went on sale. He has had no trouble with his lids. I can't believe I am seeing the problem over such a large area. Does the list know what I am dealing with? What i might do to save the other tops? I am in the process of buying a large amount of cedar tops from a beekeeper going out of business so I could exchange those tops with the fungi tops and maybe add a new coat of copper naph to the fungi tops. I would almost bet the fungi tops have been copper naph coated but could be wrong as I do not record those things and do not do the painting around the place. I have never had or seen the fungi problem in other beekeepers apiairies before. Thanks to the list in advance! I try to copper napth everything new but sometimes equipment slips by with only a primer coat and two top coats. The fungi finally grows out the side of the top in a orange half mushroom affair. Hive tops literally come off in pieces in the last stages. We have had three dry years for the most part but have been wet the last few weeks. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 19:23:57 -0700 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Keith said: I never said I did not need smoke I said I no longer use smoke, in simple terms there are better ways to manage bees than with smoke." Keith, how many hives do you have? And what do you use in it's place? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 18:29:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob & All, > Even suggesting new beekeepers might work their hives without the use = of a > smoker causes me concern.=20 > You really do read much more into a text than needs read. I never = suggested to anyone that they not use a smoker and anyone that took it = as a suggestion that they not use a smoker is ludicrous. I see now you = are merely overly concerned for others who I give much credit to having = a brain to think for themselves. > I ALWAYS teach new beekeepers to smoke a > sting (even in a suit) to mask the alarm odor. > That is how I have dealt with it in the past and this is what I teach = other beekeepers also. My bad breath does this too. c]:~) > I worry > about the newbeeks!=20 > Any newbeeks need Bob to think and worry for them? I for one was just telling of my own experiences and that is how it = should be taken for Gods sake. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:07:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queens for local conditions In-Reply-To: <001d01c5c183$62f929a0$1dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob This thread is veering away from the Subject line ! Before I address the points in Bob's post, I would like to remind everybody that we were trying discuss the selection of a strain of bee for a particular locality, not the relative merits of one race over another. > what is the cost of a winter deadout? Is it not likely that the deadout is due to a lack of suitability for the conditions encountered ? Choosing a more suitable strain that can/will survive, saves all the effort of cleaning the equipment and generating a new colony to fill it. > > It is not the number of bees in a colony that gains the > > maximum crop, but the number of bee foraging journeys. > > Interesting hypothesis and one my friend Allen Dick agrees with. Regardless of the number of bees available, the bigger crop can only be harvested load by load, unless you have found a strain with a larger honey stomach. However if the 'work load' of the foraging force reaches the maximum limit, then the colony with the longest working hours combined with the largest bee numbers will gather the larger crop. (such a limit is never reached in UK, except perhaps in some heather regions) > one large hive will out produce the same > number of bees in two hives On the surface this seems the logical way to go, but to achieve it requires disproportionately more management, particularly in swarm avoidance. Rather than counting crop related to number of hives, I think it more realistic to compare crop to the amount of beekeeper effort required. Please do not equate or confuse 'less management' with 'let alone'. > The above is not what the research has shown in the U.S.. > I have never heard of a bee referred to as *tough*. In this case the US has disadvantaged itself, by eliminating the original imported stocks and replacing them with other races, you no longer have the 'tough' bees with which to make the comparison. > When was the last time you tried a bee other than A.mm Dave? As a guy whose interest is in breeding, I have had a good deal more experience of other races than many/most in UK. I started out with the opinions that Bob is putting forward, but have gradually changed, as I have become more experienced and hopefully more knowledgeable. As a person known to have breeding/behavioural interests and a reputation as a bit of a geek, many 'odd' colonies of unusual or unknown strain have been pushed in my direction, I have invested effort into segregating, propagating and identifying (attempting to) such oddities, because I have enjoyed observing them and I believe I have gained knowledge and insight by so doing. But to answer your question more directly, I have had experience of Hybrid Italians (posh word for mongrels) of several strains, Some very 'hot' Italians, Carniolan bees of German origin, Carniolan bees of Slovene origin, Buckfast (as they were 30 years ago) and about two dozen strains of AMM or near AMM including the Galtee bees, which in my opinion are the finest for Irish and UK conditions as well as gathering consistently about twice as much as the strains that resulted from my own breeding efforts. I have also had minor experience of some Russian/Caucasian bees, but never did establish exactly what they were. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:40:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, Dave and I have had many discussions on the subject at hand. All in the archives. Dave knows his bees! Due to being overwelmed at present with beekeeping work I will be brief. >and about two dozen strains of AMM. The dictionary def. lists the word strain the same as race. In the eyes of the beekeeping world the word strain means only Bob Harrison's A.mm. or Dave Cushman's A.mm line. I could using Dave's termonology and say I have worked around a 100 strains of Italians but in the eyes of the beekeeping world they are simply slight variations of the Italian race . Id comes from several know and discussed methods. DNA being the best ID method. My friend Dee Lusby says her bees are a different *race* as the small quarter inch wing venation is in a place different than known races. She could very well have a strain of a race which is documented but the ID of a different race other than those which have been Identified would be hard in my opinion. Same for those 20 strains of Dave's. All bee samples sent to labs fit into the known named races of bees from around the world but are named by the race which represents the most percentage. How else could you do it? My only point on his post. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:33:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queens for local conditions In-Reply-To: <000901c5c29f$d6b98c00$14bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & all > but in the eyes of the beekeeping world they are > simply slight variations of the Italian race Yes, unfortunately there are two types of behaviourist... Lumpers and splitters... Lumpers are those that wish to simplify things might say that any strain that contained a majority of one race or another was just that race. Splitters are geek like beings that this is not detailed enough for (I'm a splitter) I take into account scatter and sub peaks in the morphometry data and the behaviour as recorded in colony records. DNA has arrived too late for me to take much advantage of it, my days of physically working with bees are now over, but that does not extinguish the passion that I have for bees and their habits. But DNA methods have improved and will improve much more in terms of both usefulness and cost, so expect good progress in future. I know about the Lusby wing venation variant, but have never been given enough data from a 50 bee sample, to do any classification or plotting, without such data the fact that there is an anomaly means nothing. It would be nice to see where they fit in the multivariate analysis. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:09:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/09/05 15:16:58 GMT Daylight Time, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: <> I always understood a 'race' of bee to be the same as a subspecies, and a 'strain' a identifiable line with identifiable characteristics, normally within a race, as hybrids don't breed true enough to retain characteristics down the generations. So I might have A.m.m, or near A.m.m., which use more propolis, or winter in smaller clusters, than someone else's strain, but they'd both be A.m.m. Maybe you see things differently in the US. Regards, Robert Brenchley Birmingham UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:22:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Porcelain berry. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mike, I will check the NY list of invasive plants before planting anything. Porcelain berry is quite common on Long Island. One side comment, we walked around the neighborhood and checked out vines growing in the area. The the most common was the wild grape. It must the most successful (the most invasive?) vine in my area. In August you can smell the aroma of fermenting grape fruit everywhere. I wonder if it is officially considered invasive? Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:08:00 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: queens for local conditions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mike, >>since many yards averaged 200 pounds plus this summer, with some 300 pounders, and since they made their own winter feed... Are you going to be in position to sell queens next season? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:35:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: queens for local conditions In-Reply-To: <20050926.120827.8737.613257@webmail30.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-57F1481D > Are you going to be in position to sell queens next season? It's in the plans. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.11.5/110 - Release Date: 9/22/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:45:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: queens for local conditions In-Reply-To: <20f.a253813.30696916@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Robert: I see nothing wrong with your understanding of race and strain. Maybe it's a new dictionary rewrite updating for younger folks. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:50:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: queens for local conditions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dave, >>My colonies need about 26 pounds for winter... They may get a pint or so of syrup in February to 'wake them up' Please give an idea about to your bees' rate of build up? For example, how many frames of bees do you have in a typical hive in February, how long does it take them to build up to how many frames of bees for your early flows? I am curious about how your bees respond to your local UK conditions. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:55:37 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: queens for local conditions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Allen, >>the best bee I have found for my area ... is ... the Hawaiian carnies are quite conservative How would you compare the Hawaii carnies to the NWCs as far as their productivity? And how do they compare to the 'meat-and-potatoes' Italian thoroughbreds? Thanks, Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:28:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nicholas Doumanoff Subject: Bees and Chickens Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Does anyone know if bees and chickens can live close to one another, or do the chickens harass the bees and vice-versa? Just wondering, Nick -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 06:51:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bees and chickens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable and excessive quotes.... Nick asked about bees and chickens. =20 So far there have been six responses, each one quoting Nick's entire = post! =20 johnnynkristin@FRONTIERNET.NET wrote: "My 25 chickens and 4 of my husband's bee hives are about 20 feet apart. We have no problems. Since I never see bees in the chicken's water, I suspect if they hang around for long they get eaten. It is = funny to watch chicken chase bees...high in entertainment value. But no = problems. Kristin Cox" isldguy@TELUS.NET wrote: "I have a quarter acre lot with chickens and bees. The chickens move around the yard freely, but have never paid any attention to the bees, which are probably 60 feet from the hive. Mark Primmer Chemainus, BC" em_honey@TELUSPLANET.NET wrote: "FIVE simple rules to be happy 1. Free your heart from hatred. 2. Free your mind from worries. 3. Live simply. 4. Give more. 5. Expect less." I have no idea what that has to do with bees and chickens, but heaven = forbit a madorator censor anyone! =20 janet.katz@EARTHLINK.NET wrote: "Other than one of the roosters getting stung in the comb for foraging = too close to the entrance to the hive, my chickens and bees have left = eachother alone for the 2-1/2 years they've shared the same acre. Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ" =20 Amd finally conrad@NTCNET.COM wrote: "How close do you have in mind? Mine are within a 100 foot area and = seemingly content." =20 Aaron Morris: wondering what is it about excessive quoting that's so = hard to understand? =20 =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:23:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar > Please give an idea about to your bees' rate of build up? It varies very wildly and in the last 15 to 20 years the variation has been even more wild. Before I describe the number of frames occupied, I must point out that the colonies that I have kept, very rarely expand to more than one British sized box, without considerable beekeeper intervention and the purest bred colonies may only occupy six frames even at the peak of the brood rearing. Further south and also further north than where I live conditions are not so overcast and so hybridised bee colonies in those areas and most of the rest of UK will be larger and the Italinased colonies among them will probably require more than one box or a larger hive (10 frame Langstroth or even 12 frame Dadant). Build up starts slowly in early January, but bee numbers are small until they accellerate in February, any colonies that have been disturbed during the winter need close watching end of Feb/beginning of March, because they will have consumed more stores and may not have gathered much fresh nectar and thus may require a quick feed. We have an early nectar flow from OSR (Canola) and the important thing is to get enough build up to capitalise on the flow rather than let the bees use it for their build up. This early crop is useful, but often the bees need to use quite a large amount of it during June, and in bad years feeding will be needed, just to keep them alive. Numbers of frames will seem small to you, but in January we can expect between 2 and 5, February can be quite wild and vary between 3 and 10, once we are into march we can expect 5 to 10 and the rest of the summer 9, 10 or 11. Any of the colonies with low numbers will usually get a frame of sealed brood from one of the more prolific ones in march or april. The situation is always a bit of a knife edge and never very predictable, but the bees are self adjusting so that if nectar becomes available they will take advantage of it. The make or break situation depends on the size of the June gap. Regards & best 73s Dave Cushman G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/ http://www.dave-cushman.net/ Temporary Set Up -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 06:49:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How would you compare the Hawaii carnies to the NWCs as far as their > productivity? I should specify that I am talking about Kona carniolans, and they are not pure carnies, from what I have heard. They are open-mated. I have no experience with the NWCs as such, although I understand that Gus gets his genetics from the mainland. I've been told what strains, but don't recall well enough to say. > And how do they compare to the 'meat-and-potatoes' Italian thoroughbreds? I hesitate to make the kind of general statements and sweeping, categorical claims that seem to have lately migrated to this list from some of the less critical venues, but will make the following tentative comments with the caveat that these are just my feelings, not the kind of measured and certain information that this list really deserves. First, I have no real, accurate measurements, or positive IDs on the bees in my yards. I am going more by the fact that I know I have two main sources of bees intermixed in my yards and that the hives range in behaviour. Moreover, most hives seem to fall into either of two groups (with some falling in between), each of which demonstrates a set of noticeable traits that seem to correspond to what others report about these two varieties of bees. The 'Italians' give me more early splits, and make me feel better when I open them in early spring, since they do not look as if they are about to dwindle away. The carnies sometimes tend to get marked in March and early April as "likely to die by May', then surprise me by being big hives later. The carnies can get overfed in the fall. The result is hives overly full of feed in the spring. The Italians get rid of any surplus feed and turn it into bees early enough that I can split them easily. As for crop, I haven't really noticed any difference. It seems that, although they may have different habits, the end result is about the same. Which do I like better? I think the Italian type, simply because I like to see lots of bees when I open a hive, and they are pretty. YMMV. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:58:30 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: queens for local conditions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dave, >>...in January we can expect between 2 and 5, February can be quite wild and vary between 3 and 10... It would be difficult to have 2 frames of our bees in January make it to the spring here without some serious tender loving care... I can understand how your AMM bees are optimum for your conditions (relatively mild winters, relatively low nectar flows scattered throughout the season). You face some interesting challenges in your neck of the woods. Indeed, all beekeeping is local. :) Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:55:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Richard A Cartwright Subject: Re: Bees and Chickens In-Reply-To: <30939884-197A-4ABB-824F-E80585F71F46@WARWICK.NET> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Bees and Chickens In-Reply-To: <30939884-197A-4ABB-824F-E80585F71F46@WARWICK.NET> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Nick said: Does anyone know if bees and chickens can live close to one another? I put the Canadian Flag in the yard. it seems that it keeps the chickens and bees live together in peace. Medhat -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:33:31 -0400 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gus Rouse used to say on his web site that his Carniolans are NWC crossed with Italian drones. Perhaps he still does...I have not checked lately. My understanding is that Gus's NWC's are produced by instrumentally inseminating selected dark queens with semen imported directly from Sue Cobey. In some years, Sue has gone to Hawaii to do the inseminating. Some o= f those progeny become breeder queens. Their progeny is open mated for sale. Again, AFAIK, Gus selects for Carniolan vrs Italian by color. The overwhelming majority of drones available for open mating are Italians. Thi= s is also true of NWC queens sold from California. Look at a map of North/Central Calif. where the queens are produced and you will see that al= l the producers are in the general area. The overwhelming majority of the drones in these areas are Italian, and open bred queens selected as Carniolan or Italian are based on color. I have bought many hundred "NWC" queens from both Kona (Gus Rouse) and fro= m producers in Calif. For the past several years Kona's queens have easily been the best available. Back in the days when there used to be reasonably controlled honey production tests of queens in Western Canada, Carniolans used to win annual awards with production exceeding 400 lbs a hive. But that was more than 20 years ago. I am not aware of any controlled honey production tests today, but my quess is that well-produced NWC's would at least equal "most" Italians...for whatever that means. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:40:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar > It would be difficult to have 2 frames of our bees in January make it to the spring here It is difficult in UK as well, but that is only the bottom end of the range, thankfully the majority are better than that. Regards & best 73s Dave Cushman G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/ http://www.dave-cushman.net/ Temporary Set Up -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:18:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Milt Lathan Subject: Bees and Chickens My landlord built a open wire fence to keep her dog from climbing on the hives. Her 3 free range hens often rest near the hives and occasionally will squeeze through the fence but seem unharmed by the bees. These chickens will follow me to the hive hoping for a hand out, quite the little beggars these! When I find drone larvae that I want to get rid of, the chickens really love this snack. At least in this case, I think bees and chickens do quite well together. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:06:42 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Bees and Chickens In-Reply-To: <200509281818.j8SHhu6l026701@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chickens are purported to help with pest control, especially Small Hive Beetle which the chickens scratch out of the ground to eat. They also keep the weeds down too...not to mention the grass. In fact if you don't' want to mow under/near your hives, then fencing a chicken run around the hives can help with lots of things. -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:26:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan & Jan Subject: bee virus info sources? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone direct me to a good source on bee viruses? Thanks Dan Veilleux Boone area In the Mountains of NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:32:03 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Organization: The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Pollen Yields? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What do you guys get for pollen yields from each hive average? What's industry standard yield for pollen? -- Scot Mc Pherson The Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, Iowa USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:00:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>Italian thoroughbreds<<< Strictly speaking regarding those bees sold as "Italian", wouldn't the term "Italian thoroughbreds" qualify as an "oxymoron"? >>>. Look at a map of North/Central Calif. where the queens are produced and you will see that all the producers are in the general area.<<< This makes no allowance for topography, etc. and also assumes that the mating yards are at the same location as the business mailing address or shipping point and there is nothing to say that they couldn't differ as well. Most outfits probably are in that scenario but it is my understanding that a few producers, mostly of Carniolans, use(d) fairly isolated yards and drone saturation to keep the percentage of "correct" drones per mated queen up. I think you need to keep production queens and breeder queens in the proper perspective. Breeder queens are rarely naturally mated and often are not even produced by the typical commercial queen breeder. FWIIW, probably the "biggest" producer of open mated breeder queens in North America had to be the "Hastings Carniolans". As I understand it, the mating yards were so far north in Saskatchewan that there just weren't any feral populations or other beekeepers for miles to the south of their location. I think the natural selection pressure this put on drones gave those breeder queens "a leg up" that AI can never duplicate. All things are relative, memories tend to be biased toward one extreme or the other, but I don't think the current "Carniolans" regardless of source are the equal of the "Hastings strain" as produced by breeder queens from north of the "Birch Hills". -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:30:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: chickens and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been thinking about the various comments concerning chickens and = bees. It seems to me that it will pay me to move my chickens near the = hives. I use screened bottoms in warmer weather and assume that some = mites are falling to the ground. With chickens there is little chance = of re-infestation as the birds would devour them. Actually Guinea hens = would do an even more thorough job of eating little critters. I will = try it and let you know how it turns out next summer. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:47:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: chickens and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit joebossom@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: ... Actually > Guinea hens would do an even more thorough job of eating > little critters. Yes but, Guinea hens are not chickens! I believe Guinea hens WILL eat honey bees! I am 99% positive, but I can't quote the source of that knowledge. Google search on honey bees and guinea hens and you'll verify. Aaron Morris - thinking guinea hens are not chickens!! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:13:11 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Hastings Carniolans. [Was: queens for local conditions] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Is the Hastings Carniolan line available today? Lloyd Spears wrote on this forum in 1999 that Sue Colby sourced one of the Hastings strains and bred it with others. Lloyd mentioned that the Hastings of the time were prone to aggression and heavy with propolis. Otherwise, great bees. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:11:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: bee virus info sources? Dan, FWIW the September 2005 Issue of Bee Culture has a good article by Celia Davis, Varroa Fundamentals. Within the article under THE INDIRECT EFFECTS OF THE MITE are listed four different virus types and in the next paragraph under COLONY EFFECTS, Parasitic Mite Syndrome(pages 28 and 29). Further reading at www.honeybeeworld.com and the viruses listed plus Allen's Diary should provide a fairly brief but thorough review of the viruses affecting the European honey bee. For those folks across the pond this article first appeared in Bee Craft, the official journal of the British Beekeepers Association. Cheers, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:28:52 -0400 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Carniolans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rip brought up some interesting points: 1. Yes, topography in Calif. has to be kept in mind and in some cases topography has a significant effect on drone/queen flight. 2. At least two Calif. *producers* of NWC's say they only use instrumentall= y inseminated queen mothers to produce queens for sale. Nonetheless, the queens you and I purchase are open mated with 'whatever' drones. IMO, there is a real difficulty with these queens because the drones are produced in combs that are more or less contaminated with fluvalinate or coumaphous, or both. The presence of these chemicals has led to significant reductions in the amount of viable sperm produced by the drones. Sooner or later, one or more of these producers will announce that they have stopped using these chemicals (and replaced their combs) and this will provide them with a significant competitive advantage...for awhile. One has all ready announced that they have stopped using coumaphous. 3. I well remember the Hastings stock, and even twice purchased a breeder queen (in the early 70's) from Hastings for the then princely sum of $100 each. But he was not a large producer as his season was too short. He told me that in his best year he produced just over 2,000 queens. Today, there are queen producers at the 100,000 mark, several in the 25,000-50,000 range and commercial beekeepers producing over 5,000 a year for their own use! Su= e Cobey told me that Hastings stock was "an important" part of her initial stock selection. The Hastings Carniolans were unbelievably hardy and conservative with stores. This stock was maintained north of the 'agricultural zone' in Canada, meaning that a farmer couldn't be expected to make a living producing crops or animals, and there were no feral bees. They were overwintered in single story 'cardboard' cases with no wrapping and no feeding! Pictures of the yards during winter only showed humps in the snow and he said that sometimes the hives were under accumulations of four feet! In the Albany area the queens would go through the winter with perhaps a pound of bees and would hardly use any stores at all. In mid-May, when our normal stock is getting ready to swarm, these hives would have 3-4 frames of brood. By the first of July, when our flow gets going, they'd be bursting from the hive but had little tendancy to swarm. I feel privilaged to have had some short experience working with this stock. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:33:22 -0400 Reply-To: Lloyd Spear Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Pollen Yields? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the Albany NY area constant trapping from mid-May until last week yielde= d an average of 14 lbs. a hive. Based on 23 hives in one yard, and did not include any adjustments for traps removed because of swarming or traps adde= d with late nucs. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:16:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan & Jan Subject: Re: bee virus info sources? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck Thanks for the reply. I found bees with their wings "strapped" and wondered what was causing it. Then in came Bee Culture and it seemed to identify it. >From what I have read that many colonies have endemic virus populations which manifest themselves in stressed colonies. It seems to fit our area as we have had to feed all spring just to keep the colonies alive due to a late spring freeze. We have been waiting for the goldenrod to give us wintering honey but an August/ Sept drought with less than 2 X .25 inch showers during the past 4 weeks has not been enough for the fall flowers to produce any nectar and we are looking at a frost any time now. They continue to use the few stores gained during the summer so we continue to regress. I would suppose that would qualify as stress, Dan Veilleux Boone area In the Mountains of NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 01:37:55 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lennard Pisa Subject: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <200509291811.j8TI8IRb013269@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear all, I would somehow expect that there is research done on the effect of propolis on, for instance, viability of AFB spores but I can't find any publication. Anyone know of any research? kind regards, Lennard -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:02:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, there was much research done on propolis for alleviating ailments found in beehives including foulbrood just prior to the USDA coming out with TM dusting treatments. Some was done in USA and some was done in what is now the EU countries. And very good work it was. It was one of the reasons we went to propolis patties in the early 1990s, and then in second regression down to 4.9mm top tolerance we found out we diddn't need that too anymore. So check with Ohio State and Apimondia for their Apiacta stuff if memory serves me right. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:05:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>.....one of the reasons we went to propolis patties in the early 1990s, and then in second regression down to 4.9mm top tolerance we found out we diddn't need that (sic) too anymore.....<<<< Are you saying "propolis patties" suppresses AFB and that small cells prevents AFB? Sorry, but if I'm reading you correctly, my "salt shaker" just isn't that big. I for one have found AFB in hives that had more propolis than wax on more than one occasion. If you want to say AFB spores "entombed" in propolis are unaccessible fine, I'm with you. If you want to say propolis has antimicrobial effects fine, I'm with you, but now you are saying small cells eliminates AFB? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:57:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: Hastings Carniolans. [Was: queens for local conditions] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>>...Lloyd mentioned that the Hastings of the time were prone to aggression and heavy with propolis...<<<< I can't speak for anyone else, but that was not my experience, in fact I was always amazed at how little propolis they used. They "glued" and "filled"as much as any other hive, but it was mostly wax with only a "tad" of propolis. FWIIW, I should mention that, prior to his Carniolans bees, Hastings had had a "famous"/"popular/wellknown" strain of Caucasian bees . He apparently also sold breeder queens from them as well. It is my understanding that there was no connection between the two "breeds" but I seem to recall that his Caucasians played a major role in Bud Cale's Midnite program. I don't know if his Carniolans's played any part in the Bud's Midnites. Calling "Dr. Larry", are you out there in the "lurkers" somewhere? As Bud's "right-hand-man", I/we could use your input for the record. Again, FWIIW, my understanding is that, the Midnites were a three way cross, while the Starlines were a four way cross. All four of the Starline line's were based on "Italians", but the Midnites had two lines based on "Caucasian" lines and one a "Carniolan" line. All just so much ancient history today but interesting, at least to me, none the less. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat the past. That certainly applies to beekeepers, they are very big on "reinventing the wheel" but unfortunately most of the "new wheels" are "retreads" of old "square" ones. "Al-a-men-e-um" laminated foundation to plastic laminated foundation to plastic foundation to plastic frames is a questionable progression from a biological standpoint but certainly makes some sense from a commercial one, provided the BK really understands the conditions needed by bees to draw any comb, let alone foundation. Hive bodies made from metal to plastic to fiberglass/plastic to Styrofoam are another matter, fortunately these have largely passed, each in their turn, may the gods be praised. For the record I have seen aluminum, galvanized and stainless steel supers, all with or without insulation and all a major pain to go through for the "nonbeliever". But then I digressed several paragraphs ago, my apologies to all. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:29:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: queens for local conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Rip & All, I have printed this post off and will show to Sue Cobey when I pick her up at the KCI airport and drive her to the Kansas Honey Producers meeting in Hutchison, Kansas on Oct. 14th.. She will be giving several presentations. Will get her thoughts and either comment on BEE-L or to you direct Rip? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:12:26 +0100 Reply-To: Phil Moore Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: Work experience in New Zealand 2006/7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if the list can help, my 17 year old son is interested in working for a commercial Bee operation in New Zealand for the 2006/7 season. Are there any pit falls he should know about? What organisations should he approach to get the right contacts? He has some experience of small scale beekeping (approx 100 colonies) here in the UK as part of the family organic veg growing business. He is currently contiuing in full time education. Thanks in advance Phil Moore Shropshire UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:15:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hastings Carniolans. [Was: queens for local conditions] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As Bud's "right-hand-man", I/we could use your input for the record. I do not believe Larry would answer even if on the list which I do not believe he is as he has never posted to my knowledge. Last fall Larry & I were both presenters at a meeting. After the meeting in private conversation I tried to learn about the exact lines involved in Bud's program. Seems he is still bound by a non disclosure contract similar to the one I signed with Purvis Brothers & a retired USDA researcher which helps Dann Purvis in research efforts. Many hypothesis are around about the lines involved in the Starline & Midnight program. Yours I have heard before but not from people directly involved. I have no comment as I do not know the lines involved other than rumors and a guess. I might add that Dr. Conner did say both lines were the product of a four way closed system. The NWC program is a four way closed system. The Purvis Brothers Gold line is a six way closed system. Dann Purvis has told me what I can and can not say about his research . The same is true for Dr. Conner. Unless I misunderstood Larry your information about the Midnight line is incorrect and involved a four way system. Correct about the Starline line. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---