From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 10:11:46 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB9D4905B for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:11:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEr0BB013917 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:11:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:11:35 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0510" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 1320496 Lines: 30954 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 09:03:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > but now you are saying small cells eliminates AFB? I don't know if that is the cause, but I saw no signs of AFB in Lusbys' operation on either of my visits, and they use no drugs. It is possible that their bees are resistant to AFB, and if so, that could be due to a number of factors. Small cell is an integral part of their management, and whether small cell selects for a bee that has this desirable characteristic in addition to small size, or small cells present a stimulus to better hygiene, I can't say. Or, maybe, there just isn't any AFB contamination in the outfit since they melted everything and started over on foundation. That I doubt, though. In any large outfit in the US, AFB is going to pop up from time to time, and is likely to break out noticeably where beekeepers don't visit the hives often, and do not use preventative drugs. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 09:30:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed. Fourteen to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. Seven to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. Seven more to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. Five to flame the spell checkers. Three to correct spelling/grammar flames. Six to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" .... another six to condemn those six as stupid. Fifteen to claim experience in the lighting industry and give the correct spelling. Nineteen to post that this group is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb (or light bulb) forum. Eleven to defend the posting to the group saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this group. Thirty six to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty. Seven to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs. Four to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL. Three to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group. Thirteen to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too". Five to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. Four to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?" Thirteen to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs" Three to tell a funny story about their cat and a light bulb. AND One group lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:13:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hastings Carniolans. [Was: queens for local conditions] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't speak for anyone else, but that was not my experience, in fact I was always amazed at how little propolis they used. They "glued" and "filled"as much as any other hive, but it was mostly wax with only a "tad" of propolis. I suggest that one of the biggest influences on propolis collection is whether the beekeeper has got his beespace right. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:32:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/10/2005 05:04:40 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: In any large outfit in the US, AFB is going to pop up from time to time. Why? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 09:59:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <20050930.110524.-255517.4.beerip@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Rip. To add to what Allen has said. Our bees have less then 1-2% foul brood, meaning this year I found maybe two hives I had to pull frames from and bring home to melt down to rework the wax out of about 900 colonies +/-. But we are now on small cell 4.9mm top tolerance comb with all our colonies and this makes a big difference. It makes a big difference because by changing the size of the combs back to a natural sizing in the center of the natural sizing range you change the environment the bees are working in, which then in turn changes many things relative to their health and breeding. But since health is the big factor here, by reducing the size of the bees back down, you regain again the forage that was lost to them in going bigger, and that here means more smaller plants that are medicinal. This then means if you are what you eat:.....better health. It also means with the bees working the smaller medicinal plants and taking the resin off the bloom buds prior to blooming as so plant can bloom except a bee work it first to do this, then the resin from the buds worked, and also elsewhere on the smalker plants now being worked is again used in their making of propolis, which then changes the consistancy of the propolis, making it more viable for health purposes and in this case it means again taking care of foul and other diseases that were getting away from the bees as propolis got weaker as the bees got bigger, by losing the medicinal properties of the smaller herbals. Key here being the bees shellac the broodcells before an egg can be laid to sterilize it for young larva. I could probably say more, but this should answer your question for now. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:02:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Hastings Carniolans. [Was: queens for local conditions] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I suggest that one of the biggest influences on propolis collection is whether the beekeeper has got his beespace right. I disagree! Certain lines are bad about the use of propolis. Beespace or no beespace. I seldom purchase less than a 100 queens at a time from a queen producer so get a good indication of how bad they use propolis. The top three producers of Italian bees in the U.S. queens use very little propolis. The Russian lines I have used love propolis as do the caucs! Carniolans I have used fall in the middle but certainly in my opinion use more propolis than the Italians. I don't remember propolis being an issue with the A.mm I used decades ago. I cuss the Russians for their use of propolis because with migratory tops the frames pull up when you pry the lid. Upsetting to both the bees and the beekeeper. Could possibly kill the queen. I understand in fall but NOT in 90 F. weather! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:23:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Hastings Carniolans. [Was: queens for local conditions] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris said he thought bee space has a lot to do with propolis production. I think it is the area in which you have your hives. Such as in the middle of an alfalfa field you will not get much, but among a bunch of trees you will see plenty. Lionel North Alabama -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:28:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: The Beekeepers Secret I sell honey at a large farmers market in Minneapolis, Mn. During good weather we have an observation hive on the table as a way to draw attention to our stand and it produces some interesting reactions from the public. A most frequent question is of course where is the queen bee? I explain that the queen is marked and is not always visible. If the people seem quite persistent and keep looking and discussing what she might look like and I have a break in the sales action, I offer the following advice. I look quite serious and say that sometime we need to find the queen and there can be 40-50,000 bees in a hive and the task can be quite daunting. Then I offer that an old beekeeper once told me the Beekeepers Secret for finding a queen bee. You sing a song and it must be a joyous and happy song and if its joyous and happy enough the queen bee will come right to the top of the hive and present herself. At this point most people are still with me and listening quite intently. Then with an equally serious face I say do you know any happy and joyous songs? About 1 out of ten take the bait and ponder the thought of singing to the bees. Some of the young children can be coaxed into singing by their parents who have seen through my little story and an occasional adult will take the story hook, line and sinker. Recently I had what turned out to be a former beekeeper from the middle east hear my B.S. about finding the queen and he scoffed that he had never heard that story before and did not believe it. I said to him are you still a beekeeper ? to which he replied no I am not. and I responded with see you did not know the beekeepers secret and now you are no longer a beekeeper! His buddies thought it was quite funny and proceeded to give him a hard time as they walked away laughing. Does anybody else know any other Beekeepers Secrets? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:49:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Carniolans Hi Lloyd and Everyone, I ran Hasting Carniolans in the 70's as well. And they formed the basis for my small commercial bee business in Alaska's interior. I was amazed at their uniformity in behavior which was just as Lloyd mentioned. Out of 100 commercial Carniolans evaluated today, maybe only 1 or 2 queens will demonstrate that classic behavior. Incidently, they used very little propolis as filler. And they would swarm like crazy in Alaska's 24 hour daylight. They also were great bees for wintering indoors. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:58:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The Beekeepers Secret MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, Thanks for the idea! I also do a large farmers market. This Saturday is a contest for the best Fall Harvest Fest decorated booth. I plan on winning first place but will be happy with 2nd. or third. Unhappy if I get skunked! The girls are excited and have been planning on decorations. They are going to dress up and plan on putting bib overalls and a straw hat on me! Also taking an observation hive. One of the girls sings like an angel and has sang in singing contests. I am sure she would love to sing the queen out as she is not bashful about singing (if we can not get the customers to sing). Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:58:12 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: The Beekeepers Secret MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does anybody else know any other Beekeepers Secrets? Many years ago, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, author of the Sherlock Holmes stories, was visiting a queen breeder call Mervyn Jones at Redbank Plains here in Queensland. A swarm took off from a nuc while they were in the yard. Sir Arthur asked what he would do with the swarm. Meryvn said watch and commenced to whistle. The swarm turned around and came back to the hive. Sir Arthur was amazed. What Sir Arthur did not know that the queen was a breeder queen and was clipped. So she could not issue forth with the swarm and the bees came back because the queen was not with them. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 07:37:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Claire & Paul Desilets Subject: Mass Beekeepers' Assn Fall Meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Massachusetts Beekeepers’ Association 2005 Fall Meeting and Honey Show Who: James Cardoza, Wildlife Biologist with the MA Dept of Fisheries and Wildlife, David Tarpy, Assistant Professor and Extension Apiculturist at North Carolina State University, and Michael Palmer, commercial beekeeper from St Albans, VT. When: Friday, October 14, 2005 at 7:30 PM and Saturday, October 15, 2005 at 9:30AM; Meeting Registration starts at 9:00 AM. Honey Show Entry Registration from 8:30 AM to 9:00 AM. Where: Best Western Royal Plaza Hotel, Fitchburg, MA. Directions: Take Route 2 to Fitchburg. Take Exit 28 (Route 31). Head south on Route 31. the Hotel is on the right immediately south of Route 2/Route 31 interchange. For reservations call 978-342-7100 or 888-976- 9254. Our featured speakers will be: Jim Cardoza, who will be speaking to us about the biology and management of black bears (Friday night session) -and- David Tarpy, who will be speaking to us on “Practical aspects of queen production” and “Young regality: a day in the life of a young queen bee” -and- Michael Palmer, who will be speaking to about his system of northern beekeeping and queen production. Annual Honey Show to be held on Saturday, bring your entries!! Entries must be registered before 9:00. We will have commercial exhibitors as well as a raffle and a silent auction to benefit the association. You are asked to bring an item for the Silent Auction (not necessarily bee-related), and are invited to bid on items. The Saturday luncheon will include soup, salads and sandwiches—Lunch must be reserved in advance. There will be juice, coffee and baked goods available Saturday morning. For additional information, please contact Paul Desilets at 508-888-2304, president@massbee.org. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 08:11:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <20051001165902.65233.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Our bees have less then 1-2% foul brood, meaning this year > I found maybe two hives I had to pull frames from and bring > home to melt down to rework the wax out of about 900 > colonies +/-. In Maine, with the commercial pollinators who are really susceptible to picking up all sorts of problems from other pollinators in the blueberry fields (and everywhere else they go), the AFB rate is generally around 4%. Often it is less (there are good ones and bad ones). So this sounds normal for a good commercial pollinator/beekeeper. The first colonies I purchased had AFB and I burned the lot. Nice welcome to beekeeping. Have not seen it since and have not treated. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 09:05:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In any large outfit in the US, AFB is going to pop up from time to time. I've explained this in detail in previous posts. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:59:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Ruzicka Subject: Formic acid injuries? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The following statement was made in an article by James Bach, former Washington State Apiarist, in the summer issue of WAS Journal. (pg.12) “Several persons in Canada have severely damaged their lungs from breathing the acid during applications made to bee colonies. And some have burned themselves because of not using the correct gloves or spilling the acid on their clothes.” Does anyone have any knowledge or records of the above mentioned injuries? Does any one monitor the safety records? Please let me know. I personally know about one case of lung damage in Florida by none in Canada. Bill Ruzicka Bill's Honey Farm - Home of the MiteGone Formic Acid Treatment Kelowna, British Columbia, CANADA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:17:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: The Beekeepers Secret Bob I'm full of one liners after doing this for many years. Folks ask about the mark on the queen and how it got there. I explain how we mark queens and then I say after I got my queen marked I chased my wife down in the back yard and put a similar mark on her too since she is my real queen bee! I also mention that she's not aware its there since she has not looked into the mirror to see the back of her neck for a while! The ladies love that one. And another one to reply to the inevitable question I get tired of "do you ever get stung?" to which I reply sure but I'd rather be stung by a bee then a woman, The sting only last a few minutes from a bee but if my wife stings me the pain might linger for days weeks or even months! The guys are like yeh I know what you're talking about man. Beleive it or not we get all kinds of questions, some of my favorites are "where is the sugar free honey?" or whats up with the bees why do you have them here. I look at the table and say they make honey and about once every 2 years the response is really? thought you cooked that up from a family recipe or something!!!!!!!! Earth to customer come in over. What you learn is that common knowledge is a misnomer, we have a lot of people in the U.S. who are not really in touch with farming of nature anymore. We have a large Asian and African immigrant population here in the twin cities who are big buyers of honey especially comb. Their most frequent question relative to bottled honey is "is that natural honey or is it pure or is that bee honey? " The prevelance of adultered honey in their homeland is so common place that they distrust all honey. The hive really becomes a credibility factor and they are much more trusting that I have real honey to sell. This gets back to the grocery store, cooked, slum that's mixed with overseas honey. Its so far from a raw small batch honey that they figure the grocery store stuff is bogus too. Its really been quite interesting and entertaining selling direct to the public in a large metro area. Brian On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:58:30 -0500, Bob Harrison wrote: >Hello Brian & All, >Thanks for the idea! I also do a large farmers market. This Saturday is a >contest for the best Fall Harvest Fest decorated booth. I plan on winning >first place but will be happy with 2nd. or third. >Bob > >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:06:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl David Lehr Subject: New-Bees 1st Year Blunders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" My wife and I started out this year w/ 3 nucs and now have 3 flourishing colonies. Since our bees had to draw out foundation for these colonies (and because most of our blossoms were knocked off by hard rains), local beekeepers didn't have much of a honey crop, comparatively speaking. So we decided to feed sugar syrup (1:1) all summer with the express intent on drawing as much comb as possible in preparation for next years nectar flow. Blunder #1: Although our bees have drawn 122 medium and 70 deep frames of comb; we now have "sugar syrup honey" in about 60 medium frames that we're not sure what to do with. Will we be able to feed all this sugar syrup honey back to them next spring during build-up; or are we going to be stuck? We've thought of extracting it but it seems crazy to do that. Please help if you can. Blunder #2: Somehow we didn't clearly understand that we were only supposed to feed one (1) pollen substitute patty per colony per season and now our bees have filled a significant amount of our deep frames with pollen substitute. Our concern is that they're going to need that drawn comb for their brood chamber or for their winter feed. HELP!!! Can we use some particular bee management technique to get them to "move the pollen" up into a medium honey super and out of their brood chamber? Any help you could provide these 1st year, inexperienced, New-bee, beekeepers would be greatly appreciated. Our attempts to get help from the local beekeepers association were met with laughs and giggles but no real help. Please help if you can. We really didn't mean to screw things up our first year and don't want our bees to suffer because of our mistakes. Thanks in advance. Sincerely, Dave -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:24:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hastings Carniolans (was queens for local conditions) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I cuss the Russians for their use of propolis because with migratory tops the frames pull up when you pry the lid. And what is the beespace on migratory tops? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:09:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Waggle Subject: Re: Hygienic Testing I found a colony that had a real good tolerance to varroa. But after 2 attempts at hygienic testing by pin prick method on this colony, I discovered that it tested the poorest of them all and even resulted in the colony sealing back up the cells. Further visual examination revealed that there seemed to be a disproportionately large amount of capped brood in relation to uncapped brood, but the broodnest was developing well with a nice pattern of young larvae, and the colony looked to be very healthy, ans is among my better performers. I checked the capped brood and found uncapped brood that appeared to be the result of wax worm, suggesting further that they were non-hygienic. Many of the workers in the capped brood appeared to have DWV and mites and looked to be dead. Seemingly, the colony had a trait that was beneficial to the colony, keeping infested cells sealed to prevent varroa from spreading. Even though it was a survivor, I decided it best to requeen the colony. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:19:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: NATIONAL HONEY REPORT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://marketnews.usda.gov/portal/usda/templates/honey/honey2005/20050909hny.pdf -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:26:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Purvis Brothers In-Reply-To: <003401c5c614$cafc38e0$24bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, I am interested in discussing some research on the Russian line they have (Think it is blue). Would you happen to have an e-mail address where I could contact him. I am presently involved with a study of one of the Russian lines out of Baton Rouge and am interested in trying to use a Purvis blue line to breed with the queen line that I have. Mike Stoops __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 20:29:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: Bees and Chickens Comments: To: Nick Doumanoff It seems a lot of people have had positive experiences keeping chickens near to or together with bees. I had one very negative incident where a few chickens were killed. To my amazement other chickens survived despite taking thirty or forty stings in the comb and waddle. It was a pretty big yard (50+ hives in one location) and one of those years and seasons when the bees were unusually aggressive, but I exercise a bit more caution now. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:26:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Addison McMurtry Subject: Re: New-Bees 1st Year Blunders In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Carl- Don't worry, the bees will be fine. They've overcome bigger problems than too much food! If you have 60 medium frames of syrup, you've got about 2 supers per hive, which coincidentally is probably about the weight of the stores that they need to get through the winter. If you live in a relatively mild area, you can leave the supers on the hive, but if you live in an area that is cold enough for the bees to be in a tight cluster much of the winter, they may not be able to move the cluster to cover the food source. If you want to use those supers for the honey flow next year, though, you are probably stuck with having to extract them, and then leaving them (while it is still warm) for the bees to rob dry (obviously, you want them to be confined to the deep hive bodies at this point). If the deep frames are packed with pollen, some of them will probably have to be discarded, or at least replaced in the spring with new foundation - the bees will build it out quickly. If discarding it pains you, you could freeze it and recycle it back into colonies with poor pollen stores in the future. But for the winter, you can probably just leave them as is, so long as you are providing another food source in the stored syrup or refeeding syrup if they don't have adequate stores in the deep hive bodies. Again, the bees are gonna be fine for the winter - just keep checking to make sure that they have adequate honey/syrup, and come spring clear out some space in the brood chamber to give the queen a place to lay. The learning never stops... -Lee __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:28:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: NATIONAL HONEY REPORT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Breaking the report down. Demand is high for water white by packers. Always is and always will be to cut dark foreign honey with. Every drum at my place is white. Did not chase the dark grades this year! The Colorado seller found a sucker! Way overpriced and out of line with current trends. Perhaps two beekeepers selling *widget honey* to prop up a market. Happens all the time in the show horse market. You buy my horse for $100,000 and then I buy your horse for 100,000. Then we both have got 100,000 in sales and the horse buyers think the market for quality horses is in the 100,000 range. Each gets a 100,000 breeder write off! Over a dollar a pound for extra light amber alfalfa seems high in today's market. Although the market for amber grades is very low the problem is most packers are not buying the darker bakery grades. Reports are packers are not buying dark Texas honey, Canola honey and off flavored honey right now. Several beekeepers with the above lower priced grades I have talked to are desperate to sell volume. Those with water white are able to sell but but around half the price they got two years ago! The above is only my view point from the beekeepers I have talked to. Single source honey ( Sage, Tupelo, Sourwood & orange) is in demand and bringing decent money I have been told but not in large amounts. Dee might come on and tell us what Sioux is paying. Every time I taste test a Sioux product I wonder how much melter honey went into the jar? Yes if a Sioux member the coop will take your old burned melter honey. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 22:52:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Purvis Brothers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike, Direct email your phone number and the best contact time and I will give to Dann. We talk about once a week. We are both considering dropping the Russian lines. I believe he would sell some of his Blue line breeder queens but you need to talk to Dann. The gold line (six way closed system) queens are so much better than the Russian lines in my opinion but only my opinion. The gold line has years of breeding and the Russian line needs years of breeding in my opinion. Purvis Brothers has certainly improved the Russian line with II. Purvis offers Blue line Russians open mated to Gold line drones. I like those better than the Russian/Russian but only my opinion. The Russian/Russian are like what the lab sends to Glenn apiaries. The Russian lines are what they are. If not for being able to evaluate both the Russian/Russian and the Purvis Gold line I most likely would still be thrilled with the Russian lines as they are varroa tolerant and do produce honey. The Russians do have some traits I am not fond of . Mike I went back and looked at the post you sent asking about my speaking at your club meeting and you did not include a phone number. Dann would rather talk on the phone than send emails. I do have Dann's cell number but will not give out unless he tells me to. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:56:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joanna McGlaughlin Subject: aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a hive of bees which was a swarm in June they have worked really well but have got increasingly aggressive. What and when would be the best thing to do with this hive. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 03:07:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: New-Bees 1st Year Blunders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, If you leave those supers on the hive you will need to pull the queen excluders. If not the bees will move up in late winter and the queen will be left below the queen excluder to die. Most likely she will start laying eggs in the supers if left on top. you can move the supers below the brood nest for winter. Then each warm spell the bees will move the syrup up and the supers should be empty by spring. Some of the pollen frames need pulled or at least moved to the outside for now if you get severe winters with no break in the winter cluster for a long time. Bees need honey/syrup to heat the cluster. Pollen to raise brood (mixed with honey/syrup). DO NOT pull frames of drawn comb of any kind an replace with frames of foundation for the bees to winter on. All frames of foundation not yet drawn (if any) need moved to the outside frames for winter. Lower box outside is best. Your problem as the other poster said is not serious but does need attention as I have suggested. Go slow and arrange the winter nest and you should be in good shape for winter. Left alone in a severe winter you could see problems. In certain years I have to pull full frames of pollen in the center of the brood nest and store till the next season to help the bees better winter. Hope I have helped. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 09:26:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Although I thought it was off-topic, I was amused and thinking it a slow Sunday I allowed Allen's post to go through. Subsequent posts on the topic have remained unapproved. Hindsight is golden, would I had passed on the original. In fairness to all, here they all come. Please let this thread die. Sincerely, Aaron Morris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:54:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? Allen's answer is incorrect for the case of a list member that is a moderator of the list. It only takes one moderator to change a lightbulb, because the world revolves around him, of course! :) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 17:57:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHTBULB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If we are supposed to be saving space on the university server; How did this get past the moderators, not a mention of a bee or beekeeping anywhere ;-) Ruary ----- Original Message ----- Subject: [BEE-L] HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHTBULB? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 12:59:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen, With all due respect and FWIW it is IMHO you forgot about the moderators criticizing excessive quotes. I also suggest that you look in the archives since your post may be under the topic, “How Many Beekeepers Does it Take to Change a Light Bulb (1) In a honey house. (2) In a Refrigerator for the Heating of Crystallized Honey (3) In Experimental Hives for Small Hive Beetle Control. I humbly remain your obedient servant, Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:58:22 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: William Winters Subject: Re: HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: allen dick Date: Sunday, October 2, 2005 6:30 pm Subject: [BEE-L] HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? > One to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been...................... Very funny, but very true. David -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 15:26:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? In-Reply-To: <004101c5c766$2bb08ef0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- allen dick wrote: > One to change the light bulb and to post that the > light bulb has been > changed.......! Once again the 'you' neglected to mention an option!!!!! ('you' not meaning 'you' personally Allen, but speaking as 'you' meaning 'the list' 'advice givers' as you ;>) 'You' have neglected the 'organic method"!!!!! Open a dang window if you want some light! ;>) A better question might be. Why as your post reflects, all the quick fix complex solutions come to mind when there are simple and effective organic procedures available for beekeepers to use. ;>) Metaphorically speaking,,, If you use simple organic methodry to solve 'your' problems, you won't need the 'arsenal of beekeepers' to change that dang light bulb. ;>) Best Wishes, Joe __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 20:37:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? Hi Allen and Everyone, There's a few you forgot. What about those who demand proof that the light bulb was actually changed. And those that insist on evidence that changing a bulb is economically feasible in their operation. And then there are those who have never changed a bulb and can't see any reason to do so. Dare I mention the chemical versus the organic light people? Oh, and I almost forgot those that insist there is only one way to change a bulb. And of course its their way, as it has always worked for them. Did I forget anyone else? :>)))) Regards Dennis Thinking if a beekeeper loose his sense of humor, it might be time to get a life. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:35:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? In-Reply-To: <004101c5c766$2bb08ef0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Now, how much of this post can I copy in a reply in order to reply to it correctly. All of it? Part of it? None of it? Mike PS: Is this pertinent to this list? --- allen dick wrote about list members changing a lite (light) bulb. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 20:59:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Juan Carlos =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fern=E1ndez?= Campos Subject: Re: HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? In-Reply-To: <004101c5c766$2bb08ef0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all, This was funny, (i think so). In the other hand the "light bulb" way of be in this list is somehow helpfull to people like me, newbby( spell checking needed?). regards Juan carlos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:09:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This off-topic, but I thought I'd pass on the fact that I have received a lot of direct responses from people who appreciated that post on an otherwise slow BEE-L day. I'd like to thank the moderators (no, I haven't been a BEE-L moderator for something like a year now) for their allowing us to indulge in a bit of humour. I should also confess that Aaron had presented a similar post back in 1997. Some things never change. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 08:30:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid approved in Canada for Use to control mites in honey bee colonies-2005 In-Reply-To: <20051004002600.63165.qmail@web53414.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Dear Bee-L: After a lengthy review of the application submitted by the Canadian Honey Council, the Pest management Regulatory Agency has approved the use of Oxalic acid for the control of varroa mites in honey bee colonies. For the new label and conditions for use Check the following website: Once again, we have another effective tool to manage mites in honey bee colonies. Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 15:38:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Was - [BEE-L] HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thinking of things that Allen had missed reminded me of an incident earlier this year when one of our lady members (not in her first flush of youth) was called to a swarm at a local hospital. The swarm was way out of reach in a high tree, even with a ladder, so she tried to decline the job. However, the person in charge at the hospital was not going to accept that - and promptly called the fire brigade who promptly arrived with a 'cherry picker'. It then took seven of them to do a risk assessment on allowing her to go up and get the swarm! I think Allen had seven to caution about the dangers, but did anyone do a proper risk asssessment? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk (Yes, she did get the swarm!) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:54:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You should requeen now. Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:23:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: aggressive bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanna McGlaughlin asked what to do with aggressive bees. The answer is to re-queen, but I think that you are in the UK and it is possibly a bit late to get hold of a decent queen now. If you have to wait until spring, you may find that the colony is quite docile before it builds up (you said that it became increasingly aggressive - and bad bees are often fairly quiet when the colony is smaller) - so it may not be a problem to wait. However, you do not want it producing drones in the spring as they could mate with any new queens that your other colonies(assuming you have more) may produce after swarming. Do you have more colonies? Are they good tempered? If so, you have plenty of options, e.g. you could kill the queen in the bad colony and unite it with another - then split the resulting colony when it gets big enough. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:32:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dann Purvis II Subject: Re: HOW MANY LIST MEMBERS DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE A LIGHT BULB? In-Reply-To: <20051002222631.47249.qmail@web34315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Don't forget to count how many times you turn on and off the bulb to estimate the correct threshold as to when you need a new one. Then again the other option is to just replace it when it goes out. ;) Dann Purvis Purvis Brothers Apiaries, Inc. 5122 Trackrock Camp Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 (706) 781-3128 (office) dannzann@alltel.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 20:33:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dann Purvis II Subject: Re: Hygienic Testing In-Reply-To: <200510032309.j93N5Xxj022103@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Before we converged our six lines of bees into one large closed population in year 2000, we had developed or isolated two lines of bees that would consistently test hygienically above 85% at 24 hours (liquid Nitrogen, same age brood, with re-test confirmation). One line originated from Dr. Spivak bees and the other from a local beekeeper. The other 4 lines were evaluated and fell short in hygienic behavior evaluations but carried other evaluated traits deemed necessary to our goal of developing a bee that can survive without chemical intervention while producing well. The following is some of what we have learned concerning selecting for, testing, etc., of hygienic behavior. Hygienic behavior is not that difficult to bring out. We could use the pinprick method especially if the brood was pierced (multiple times) from the backside of the brood comb through the mid-rib but chose to use liquid Nitrogen because it was easier, faster, more consistent and therefore more accurate. Instrumental insemination helps speed the selection process up but is not mandatory. The local beekeeper was making leave alone splits. Strictly as a Vmite fighting trait, Hygienic behavior is not successful. I believe hygienic is more valuable for brood diseases (EFB, AFB, Sacbrood, and Chalkbrood). For that reason we included it was in our closed population. We have seen a significant drop in brood diseases, which I attribute partially to the hygienic genes, an increase in propolis production and high brood viability (95%+). Some of our strongest survivors are not our most hygienic however some stronger survivors have shown mite counts above the norm and most with more than usual propolis. IMHO, these and other genetic traits (grooming behavior, virus resistance, etc.), conducive mite genetics, high brood viability and chemical free hive conditions, are all needed for survival. Thanks, Dann Purvis Purvis Brothers Apiaries, Inc. 5122 Trackrock Camp Road Blairsville, Georgia 30512 (706) 781-3128 (office) dannzann@alltel.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 21:00:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Brown Subject: NATIONAL HONEY REPORT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > "Although the market for amber grades is very low the problem is most packers > are not buying the darker bakery grades. Reports are packers are not buying > dark Texas honey, Canola honey and off flavored honey right now." Earlier this summer I couldn't find a buyer for ELA (Gallberry). Market has since opened up slightly once the packers found out white honey was going to be in short supply. > > Single source honey ( Sage, Tupelo, Sourwood & orange) is in demand and > bringing decent money I have been told but not in large amounts. Tupelo topped out at $2.50 lbs, however it was in short supply, and most was quickly sold. -- _______________________________________________ Search for businesses by name, location, or phone number. -Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:44:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lackey, Raymond J (US SSA)" Subject: Re: The Beekeepers Secret MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Question: "Do you ever get stung?" Answer: "All of the bees with stingers are female. When you have learned to handle one female, you can handle any female.=20 ............. ..... I've been married for over thirty years and I haven't learned to handle one. OF COURSE I GET STUNG!!!!!" Raymond J. Lackey Sweet Pines Apiary web page: http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html =20 email home: lackeyray@tianca.com =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:02:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: NATIONAL HONEY REPORT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Greg! Many times people think I make these things up! I personally think ELA gallberry is a step above the bakery grades I talked about. I started beekeeping in Florida and am very familiar with gallberry honey. Greg's example shows the packer market. White U.S. Clover honey is almost always in short supply because in the Midwest the honey needs pulled before the darker wildflowers bloom. In other words the honey is white and then as the weeks go by turns ELA ,to la to Amber. I could use pfund numbers but would confuse most. >Tupelo topped out at $2.50 lbs, however it was in short supply, and most was quickly sold. I had heard Tupelo was high this year but 2.50 I believe is a record high price. Donald Smiley & Bill Merrit must be smiling! Both were born under a Tupelo tree (legend says!) and guard their Tupelo locations. Both are what when I lived in Florida we called "Florida Crackers". Most " Florida crackers" run a "Florida Native" plate on the front of their vehicles! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 07:55:29 -0700 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: The Beekeepers Secret MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I actually got a few believing me when I posted this picture of me and the new AHB safe beesuit I designed. http://webpages.charter.net/tvaughan/tim.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:26:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Certan as a Preventative Treatment for SHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello To All, While visiting Thorne's website in England yesterday I came across Certan on sale. Certan used to be available in the United States as a preventative treatment for waxmoths ( Please see Archives: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0406B&L=bee- l&P=R999&D=1&O=D) and others with Certan as the “Search For:”. Just the day before I had pulled a frame of small hive beetle larvae out of a mating nuc and after seeing the Certan advertisement I wondered if there had been any efficacy studies with Certan and the small hive beetle; or perhaps a similar bacterium. Can anyone enlighten this poster if such a study has been done or is in progress? Cheers, Chuck Norton Norton’s Honey Farm Reidsville, NC 27320 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:05:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Certan as a Preventative Treatment for SHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Certan is a strain of BT that is lethal to wax moth. It will certainly not be effective against small hive beetle. However, there ARE strains of BT that are lethal to the Colorado Potato Beetle, so perhaps there are strains of BT that are lethal to SHB. Personally I don't know. Perhaps Mike Griggs will have some insight. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:32:58 -0400 Reply-To: lhhubbell@johnstown.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Leland & Dorothy Hubbell Organization: Tekoa Subject: Reproductive chaos after queen's death - article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought some of you might bee interested in this on-line article on queen bee and laying workers. Originally :The research is reported in the Oct. 6 issue of the journal "Nature." http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/051005_bee_hive.html A couple of quotes: "If a female worker breaks the code, the other females quickly devour her rogue eggs." "workers rear one last batch of males before the whole colony dies." and: "among Asian dwarf red honeybees, Apis florea, even females from other hives get in on the action" Comments? Leland Hubbell -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 18:01:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was going to reply off-line but decided to risk the "moderator" and submit it to the general list. I hope I don't win the "05 light bulb" award for excessive quotes. >>>Our bees have less then 1-2% foul brood, meaning this year I found maybe two hives ........of about 900 colonies +/-.<<< I think you might want to check your math, I get .111% -.222% with from 1 - 2 hives out of 900 or 9 - 18 hives at 1 - 2%. Darn decimal points! Where are the moderators when you need one? They must all be out changing light bulbs with Allen, he appears to advocate a rather large crew for that job. >>>changing the size ...to a natural sizing ....change the environment .... relative to ... health and breeding.<<< How does this "change the environment"? Certainly you don't mean outside the hive, so just what is different about the inside aside from proportions? >>>reducing the size of the bees .... you regain ...forage ...lost .... going bigger,<<< Such as? Just what plants can be foraged by your "natural sized" Apis mellifera that can't or won't be accessed by "big" Apis mellifera? >>>and that here means<<< Is this a typo or do you mean you are referring to plants found only in your immediate area and if so, how does this impact on the applicability of your claims outside your immediate area? >>>more smaller plants that are medicinal.<<< I was unaware that size had any bearing on the potential for medicinal properties in a plant species. Are you referring to plants in a given species being smaller in your area or that plants, in general, are smaller? >>>This then means if you are what you eat:.....better health.<<< It could but it also could just as easily be used to argue for poor health based on the same logic. Take the "junk food - obesity" debate. We know Apis mellifera collects pollen which isn't nutritionally complete for them. The classic case here about is dandelion, they collect it by the ton, but research has shown that a colony limited to only dandelion pollen will collapse. >>>...medicinal plants and taking the resin ....<<< Do you have any data to prove that the resin off "medicinal plants" is anymore effective than other plant resins? >>>as so plant can bloom except a bee work it first to do this,<<< I am unaware of any plants that require bees, Apis or other wise, to "remove resin in order to bloom". Can you provide me with a reference, preferably in a peer reviewed, juried journal? >>>then the resin ...the smaller plants ...again used .... propolis, <<< We are back to square one. Do you have any data to support your Hypothesis that smaller Apis mellifera work smaller plants that big Apis mellifera cannot access? >>>...consistency ...<<< I don't think you will find anyone who will disagree with your premise that different plant resins have a distinctive consistency. >>>...viable for health ...<<< Do you have any evidence for one resin being "more viable for health purposes" than any other? >>>...propolis got weaker...<<< Can you give me a reference that the propolis in the hive of "bigger bees" is any weaker than the propolis in the hives of "small bees"? I am assuming that this conversation is confined to Apis mellifera. What is the basis for your use of the term "weaker"? What parameters are you talking about when you use the word "weaker"? If asked, I would have to say the consistency of propolis is determined by the ambient temperature and the amount of wax incorporated with the plant resins, followed a very distant third by any inherent resin characteristics . >>>...bees shellac the brood cells ....<<< Here at last we have something we can agree upon, that said there is still a problem. Yes propolis has very active antibacterial properties and prevents bacteria from attacking the exterior of the larva, but AFB isn't an exterior problem. I think it is safe to say that the life cycle of AFB is known to a "fare-thee-well" and at no point does the active, vegetative stage of the disease come in contact with the cell wall, with or without the propolis "shellac". The spores are fed to the larva by the nurse bees, either directly or in the brood food deposited on the cell bottom. They are spores until consumed by the larva. They "hatch" in the larval gut, complete their entire development cycle there. They are effectively spores when the larva defecates for the one and only time just before pupation. If the larva dies, the spores formed are encased in the larval skin and it drys down with time to form a scale. If propolis had any effect on AFB spores, AFB would be almost a none issue. Do you have any evidence that propolis kills AFB spores? >>>should answer your question<<< Not really, unfortunately it has raised a few more. I'm convinced you have something going on in the vicinity of Moyza, but I don't think your explanation has much, if anything, to do with your results. Do you have any control hives, i.e. worked and treated the same in the same area but on "big" foundation? Is the AFB rate in these hives any more, less or about equal to your other hives? Failing that, what about "big bee" beekeeping neighbors within your zone of operation? What is their AFB rate and/or do they treat prophylactically? Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 22:19:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <20051005.180148.-1044299.5.beerip@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Rip: I wrote earlier: >>>Our bees have less then 1-2% foul brood, Be it 900 +/- or 700 +/- with your math, we still have with our bees less then 1-2% foul brood finding only two colonies I pulled foul from this year so far. As for the rest, be it removing the resin from buds of plants before they can bloom or Bees too big to forage into smaller plants for nectar the research papers you will find back quite a few years in Europe mostly so go back a few decades when looking. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 11:34:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid approved in Canada for Use to control mites in honey bee colonies-2005 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello to All, Medhat has said: "Once again, we have another effective tool to manage mites in honey bee colonies." Unfortunately, "we" just means Canada and the other countries that have given approval. There is a whole lot of "us" down here in the lower 48 (plus) that have been left without this valuable tool as an approved pesticide. In my opinion, approval in Canada will bring about an increase of unauthorized use of this pesticide here in the States. Approval in Canada will likely give rise to increased use and availability of oxalic applicators here in the USA. Unauthorized use of oxalic acid will likely lead to instances of injuries resulting from misuse and mishandling of oxalic acid formulations. To have a miticide that is relatively safe for all beekeepers to apply with labeled instructions and FDA approval is imperative to the success and the industry acceptability of oxalic acid as a miticide. Oxalic acid can be used in a safe and sane manner. Oxalic acid in my opinion is another valuable bullet in a growing toolbox of miticides, provided a safe method of application gains FDA approval, else it will remain in a category quite like TacTic, Maverick, and Coral as another pesticide that is misused per labeled instructions and is a danger to all. It is important that pressure be put on Washington for oxalic acid approval here in the USA and acceptable standards and methods of application are well defined and established with labeled instructions. Oxalic acid is not something that should be concocted and administered as a witches brew. Current methods of application do not require a chemist or rocket scientist for safe administration; methods are quite simple and well defined. Because it is unlikely that any one company or person will undergo the gauntlet and expense for FDA approval of oxalic acid applications that have gained approval in Europe and Canada are either delayed gaining FDA acceptance or are never filed with the FDA because of the lengthy and costly process. The FDA trusts no one except itself, not even its Canadian or European counterparts, and the beekeepers in this country unfortunately carry on their shoulders, their hives and in their pocket books this same burden of trust. Sincerely, Chuck Norton Norton’s Honey Farm Reidsville, NC 27320 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 05:24:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Our bees have less then 1-2% foul brood, > > Be it 900 +/- or 700 +/- with your math, we still have with > our bees less then 1-2% foul brood finding only two > colonies I pulled foul from this year so far. I think what Rip was pointing out is that although two in eight hundred (to take an average) is, indeed, less than one or two percent, it is in fact *much* less -- 0.25 % -- or 1/4 of one percent, and very much less than two percent. That leaves everyone wondering if you normally find as much as 18 hives, which would be two percent, and if this year is, therefore, abnormally low? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 05:28:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As for the rest, be it removing the resin from buds of > plants before they can bloom or Bees too big to forage into > smaller plants for nectar the research papers you will find > back quite a few years in Europe mostly so go back a few > decades when looking. I recall you have said this many times, but many of us do not have the access to research material you have, and some citations would be very helpful. Do you have a list of references? I know you run a list discussing your experiences and theories, so I'm wondering if you have an FAQ for that list that includes definitive answers for these questions that come up time and again? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:54:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Hayes, Jerry" Subject: Swarm of Drones Comments: cc: "Bastianelli, John" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of my Inspectors with over 30 years of experience saw something yesterday that he had never seen before. A group of about 30-40 drones came into this inspectors backyard, which at this time has no colonies, and alighted on an old location that had a colony on it in the past. He was familiar with DCA's and immediately checked for a queen. None was found nor any workers just a "swarm" of black drones that stayed on that site for several hours walking around. With our AHB situation in Florida his question was is this related to this issue. I couldn't answer that. What does the group think? Jerry =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 G. W. Hayes, Jr. Assistant Chief Bureau of Plant and Apiary Inspection Apiary Inspection Section Division of Plant Industry P O Bx 147100 Gainesville FL 32614-7100 (352) 372-3505 ext 128 (352) 334-0715 FAX =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:06:48 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Swarm of Drones MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT There is an old saying "Never ascribe a complicated answer to a question, when a simple one will do". In that spirit, I suggest he has just witnessed "where the old drones go", when they are driven from the hives at the end of the season and before winter hits. Eunice Wonnacott -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:13:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Swarm of Drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I suggest he has just witnessed "where the old drones go", > when they are driven from the hives at the end of the > season and before winter hits. I've never kept bees in Florida, but I wouldn't imagine drones are being evicted there at this time of year, when their climate is just getting Yankee tolerable. But this is just a guess. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 07:49:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Swarm of Drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A group of about 30-40 drones came into this inspectors backyard, which at > this time has no colonies, and alighted on an old location that had a > colony on it in the past. How long since a colony had been on the spot? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:59:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: American Foulbrood (was Propolis and AFB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >finding only two colonies I pulled foul from this year so far. As Allen says AFB spores are around. Have been & always will be. When AFB was in the crisis stage around WW2 AFB was common in most beekeeping operations and in tree deadouts. Those spores are still viable today. We get reports of AFB at our club from beekeepers with new equipment getting AFB in their hives. Rare but happens! A couple hives in hundreds is indeed amazing in an outfit which does not treat as a preventative but Dee's bees are in fairly remote areas and not exposed to other beekeepers bees which are being treated to prevent the active disease but STILL carry the spores. Here in lies the problem. Robbing is going on big time this fall in Missouri. Bees are even being seen big time in empty pop cans looking for syrup. A small feral colony with a large opening can be in trouble if weakened by mites or foulbrood. Commercial beekeepers which do not treat as a preventative for AFB and go to California have been having serious AFB issues on their return. When asked the beekeepers sitting next to them in California are not reporting AFB problems. My guess is the beekeepers are bringing back spores from robbing etc. THE KEY TO AFB IN A COMMERCIAL OPERATION IS SMELL. KNOW THE AFB SMELL! TRYING TO FIND A SINGLE CELL OF AFB AMONG HUNDREDS OF HIVES IS LIKE LOOKING FOR A NEEDLE IN A HAYSTACK. The smell is unmistakable once you know the smell. Two years ago a certified master beekeeper brought 10 deadouts to get bees put in. The first whiff of the boxes told the story. He did not know the smell nor had ever been shown a real comb of AFB! He had seen pictures in books and should have I'd the problem but did not. If you belong to a bee club and you get a frame of AFB take to the meeting. Let all the new beeks look and smell the frame. The bee book description of *smells like a glue pot* means little. I have never seen or smelled a glue pot! We need to find a reference other than glue pot to put in the new bee books! Dogs can be easily be trained to find the AFB smell but dogs and bee hives are not very compatible. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:21:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: The Beekeepers Secret My daughter got attacked by a swarm of killer bees. http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/image/48264670 She didn't know the beekeeper's secret, that bees have a sense of humor. My son had a good joke on hand when he was attacked, and there was no problem. http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/image/41310327 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:20:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Sympatico Subject: Bee beard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was asked to judge the bee beards at out local club .=20 I asked What criteria should I use and was told ask the audience.=20 I should think that there are rules . Does any one have any so in = future a better idea can help the judgeing . . -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 15:06:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Re: BT for Beetles Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed A Bt primer can be found at the below address. Readers digest condensed answer from the Virginia Cooperative Extension ! "...Insecticidal products composed of a single Bacillus species or subspecies may be active against an entire order of insects, or they may be effective against only one or a few species. For example, products containing Bacillus thuringiensis var. kurstaki kill the caterpillar stage of a wide array of butterflies and moths. In contrast, Bacillus popilliae var. popilliae (milky disease) kills Japanese beetle larvae but is not effective against the closely related annual white grubs (masked chafers)..." for the complete article see: http://filebox.vt.edu/cals/cses/chagedor/btprimer.html Bt is actively being targeted by genetic engineers to develop "designer Bt" to suit the needs of a particular market niche. Strain selection & manipulation of existing lines can increase the duration products remain on the market before insect pests become resistant. That said! There are many species specific strains of BT targeting beetles. These targeted insecticides have the advantage of not adversely affecting Non-Target beneficial insects found in the spray area. So rather than having a "Dead Zone" those insects of little concern (other than by us bug huggers) are spared following elimination of the target species. We all know that some products are better than others but that is a story for another time. There are Bt products available for the control other beetles for example-Colorado Potato Beetle, cucumber beetle etc--many crop insects. There are probably Bt products available for stored grain and the control of grain beetles. I do not know of any products for sap beetles or SHB. If your interested in what is available get a hold of Cornell recommendations, (your states Extension recommendations, Farm Chemical Handbook or an online search of chemical products. BT is being utilized in so many areas it will not be long before widespread insect resistance will become evident as in any over used product. The big chemical companies know this & are preparing the next generation products as I write this. I would rather see a researcher pick up on the use of some entomopathogenic fungi like Beauveria bassiana (Bb) which is an omnipresent soil pathogen that affects many insects that pupate in the ground like SHB. To date there are no reports of resistance to any of the commercially available Mycoinsecticidal products (insecticides made from insect fungal pathogens) I will briefly talk about Bb and Metarhizium anisopliae (Ma) while talking about fungal pathogens of insects to the Empire State Honey Producers at the Fall meeting in Syracuse, NY in December. See: http://eshpa.org/Fall%20agenda_1.htm Mike Griggs Entomologist/ Support Scientist Plant Protection Research Unit USDA ARS, U.S. Plant, Soil & Nutrition Lab. Tower Road, Ithaca, NY 14853 http://www.ppru.cornell.edu/PPRU.htm phone: 607-255-1085 fax: 607-255-1132 email: mhg3@cornell.edu -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 17:58:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <001201c5ca69$09a67d50$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen writes: I know you run a list discussing your experiences and theories, so I'm wondering if you have an FAQ for that list that includes definitive answers for these questions that come up time and again? Reply: The list has a very extensive links and database section that has been compiled. As for the propolis, most of the best information can be found with Apimondia publishing, with the best book I've ever seen done in Bucharest in 1978, that a friend bought from Russia for me in trade for actual propolis we do. From there just look 10 years either way in the archives of publication that Apimondia does. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 18:20:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <000e01c5ca68$81ea1b60$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Allen That leaves everyone wondering if you normally find as much as 18 hives, which would be two percent, and if this year is, therefore, abnormally low? Reply: Prior to shaking down to 4.9mm top tolerance from 5.0mm - 5.1mm sizing we were then regressing to we would find even more then 18 hives in our outfit that fluxated between 900-1100 colonies. We lived with the mites but the foul was driving us crazy pulling, processing, and retooling and splitting/requeening constantly. It was the foul of the secondary diseases that made us shakedown a second time to the 4.9mm top tolerance sizing, meaning no bigger then 4.9mm until stabilized to see if we could whip the secondary diseases. We had at this time stopped using TM paddies and had switched to propolis patties due to data we had pulled up in looking thru paperwork written, not liking the TM residues (they say it degredates but it is only in sunshine and not internally in hives we found out reading deeply.). Anyway, when we got on the 4.9mm our foul problems started dropping fast and by 3-4 years in were down to very low levels of less then about 10-12 hives, and then kept getting lower each year until the past 3 years or so we haven't found over 1-2 in anyone year that I have had to pull frames from and add clean drawnout combs. By the way, for the record, we don't burn our foul frames, we melt them down, reprocess the wax with our own wax melter to old written standards, and then with foundation embossing machine we make our own foundation and redo our woodenware. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 22:12:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid approved in Canada for Use to control mites in honey bee colonies-2005 In-Reply-To: <200510051534.j95DTPp4007545@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 5, 2005, at 11:34 AM, Chuck Norton wrote: > Because it is unlikely that any one company or person will > undergo the gauntlet and expense for FDA approval of oxalic acid > applications that have gained approval in Europe and Canada are either > delayed gaining FDA acceptance or are never filed with the FDA > because of > the lengthy and costly process. The FDA trusts no one except > itself, not > even its Canadian or European counterparts, and the beekeepers in this > country unfortunately carry on their shoulders, their hives and in > their > pocket books this same burden of trust. The Canadian Honey Council(Canadian national beekeepers association) presented the Canadian equivalent of the FDA, the PMRA, with the documentation required to get approval. This work by the CHC was funded, in part, by beekeeper donations. Are there no American equivalents to the CHC? Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 44N80W -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 04:55:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Swarm of Drones In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE09210142DFCE@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron Morris wrote: > I've never kept bees in Florida, but I wouldn't > imagine drones are being evicted there at this time of > year, when their climate is just getting Yankee > tolerable. But this is just a guess. I'm located about 90 miles north of Mobile, Alabama and most of my hives still have capped drone brood in the brood nest, along with drones all over the hive. Mike __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 07:06:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid approved in Canada for Use to control mites in honey bee colonies-2005 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >This work by the CHC was funded, in part, by beekeeper donations. Both our national organizations have committed to getting formic & Oxalic registered (with beekeeper donations). I was in meetings when resolutions were made. With due respect to both organizations I do not believe they are going to get the job done on either product. At least not in the near future. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 07:25:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George I. always has said "you can't keep bees like "Grandpa" did and survive in today's fast pace beekeeping world" then along comes Dee & Ed Lusby. I was a kid when AFB ravaged the U.S. beekeeping industry but remember the hive burnings well! USDA panic for sure. Beekeepers scared to let inspectors look at hives. Then the first drug to mask the active disease was discovered in Missouri and then later the use of terra was approved. Antibiotics only masked the problem. AFB when beekeepers let run rampant is hard to control. The older beekeepers know the problems and keep a constant vigil. New beekeepers worry less which causes me concern. Dee said: By the way, for the record, we don't burn our foul frames, we melt them down, reprocess the wax with our own wax melter to old written standards, I believe this could be the source of the repeat AFB. Research has shown that AFB *spores* are not destroyed by melting temps. A much higher temp is needed. The list can decide which method to follow. Only adding my opinion to the discussion. I say burn the wax and not recycle. I have used Lye water on the frames but prefer to burn frames with wax and scorch boxes. Why recycle the wax from a couple of hives and in my opinion risk contamination. Is a couple of pounds of wax worth the risk? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:41:48 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Swarm of Drones MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, my guess is not the answer! I had not thought "Florida" when I wrote, and obviously something else is at play. The writer who asked how long since a colony had been located there, may be on to something. EDW -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:03:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Swarm of Drones Comments: To: "G.W.Hayes Jr" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To Jerry and the List, Although I have never seen nor have I ever heard of this phenomenon, I certainly place a high value on Mr. Hayes' report. I have seen and heard about more fall supersedure swarms this year than ever before – a lot with virgin queens. I have seen and heard of hives having Russian and Russian hybrid queens with plenty of drones this late in the fall while the Italians are kicking the old boys out the door. Perhaps, just perhaps that swarm of drones had visited that same spot, a place where a hive once was where they used to return after unsuccessful nuptial flights from a nearby drone congregation area. Old habits are hard to break, even for drones. And, perhaps, just perhaps that exact same spot where the swarm of drones wound up congregating once contained a top bar hive and this swarm of drones from habit congregated at the old watering hole as the male gender often does buzzing about the one that got away. Cheers, Chuck Norton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 11:59:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Bob Harrison wrote: “I believe this could be the source of the repeat AFB. Research has shown that AFB *spores* are not destroyed by melting temps. A much higher temp is needed.” I quite concur with Bob, and I appreciate that he brought up the matter. For woodenware and frames without honey it is unfortunate that ethylene oxide, ETO, availability is limited in the US to Maryland and North Carolina, please see: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0212C&L=bee-l&P=R913, Re: Heat and AFB is there another way? ...and I also quote George Imirie in, Re: State Apiary Registrations http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0402A&L=bee- l&P=R6420 “For years and years, Maryland has enjoyed one of the lowest AFB rates in the country, about 1% of all inspected colonies.” I want to note that cobalt radiation is used to destroy AFB spores in woodenware in Massachusetts and in Australia. I am also aware of other countries where radiation is acceptable and cost effective, perhaps Allen or Medhat can bring about an up to date status in Canada and others can chime in. To put all of this above together and summarize, here in the US a lot of folks have very few tools to fight AFB even with new medications coming into play and hygienic honey bees. This brings up my point, again, that a state sponsored apiary inspection service should be available in every state in the US. Unfortunately, this is not the case. AFB is becoming resistant, is resistant, depending on where you are, to Terramycin, oxytetracycline HCL. In the last two decades, states have continued to dismiss funding for apiary inspection services. Beekeeping organizations nationwide are omitting programs, classes and field days on recognizing and treating foulbrood from their agendas and concentrating on varroa and other matters instead. Folks, we are walking on very thin ice. AFB will continue to be a problem as long as there are honey bees, it needs to be recognized and dealt with in a timely and prudent manner in the apiary and the same within the beekeeping industry. Chuck Norton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:13:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid approved in Canada for Use to control mites in honey bee colonies-2005 > Both our national organizations have committed to getting formic & Oxalic > registered (with beekeeper donations). > With due respect to both organizations I do not believe they are going to > get the job done on either product. At least not in the near future. Perhaps if they were to put aside the petty bickering, and work together... no, wait - I just flipped open the October Bee Culture, and found: ABF Annual Meeting: Jan 11-14 Louisville, KY AHPA Annual Meeting: Jan 10-14 Houston, TX Driving between the two locations would take 15.5 hours, a trip of 1030 miles. The cheapest possible flight between the two cities would run $317 if purchased today. Given that a not-insignificant fraction of the membership of these groups belong to both organizations, exactly what "respect" due to either group? They are still "competing", each still posturing that they somehow solely "represent" US beekeepers, and both so impotent, they can't even imagine that their membership might want to attend the other group's meeting. I understand that they can't be expected to see eye-to-eye on every issue, but this is a basic failure to coexist on any level, as the two groups will now be "competing" for both attendees and speakers, and vendors will have to choose between the two, or somehow cobble together TWO booth teams, TWO displays, TWO trucks, and so on. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:02:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby writes to Rip; >>>As for the rest, .... few decades when looking.<<< To be quite candid, I am fairly well read in the literature relating to pollination. I am also well aware of the resource partitioning that occurs between different species of bees based on, among other things, size. At the same time I am also unaware of any mention, in what I have read, that shows that different size bees of the same species forage different plants. Unless I missed something, I can't believe that John B. Free, as a case in point, would not mention this observation in his very extensive writings on pollination. Dee Lusby writes to Allen; >>>As for the propolis, ... best book I've ever seen done in Bucharest in 1978, ... 10 years either way in the archives of ... Apimondia ...<<< With all due respect, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but you are very long on generalities and very short on specifics. Which book(s), pamphlets or articles are you referring to and what should I be looking for? If it deals with the antimicrobial properties of propolis we are already in agreement on that point and that is not very helpful. If on the other hand it deals specifically with the control of the vegetative stage or the killing of AFB spores, could you please cite a specific reference, chapter and verse, as they say? I am unaware of it and would be very interested in reading it for myself. Romania published a lot of material for Apimondia. To be candid the quality of the paper and ink left much to be desired, the ink "rubs" and the paper is so thin you can see the text on both sides at once, both of which make for hard reading that, frankly, I would just as soon avoid without a definitive reference citation. I'm not from Missouri but I was brought up to "believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see". >>>for the record, ... reprocess the wax ... make our own foundation.<<< I'm not trying to be "cute" when I say, I'm "flabbergasted" to hear an "organic" beekeeper make that statement: (1) Extensive published research has shown that comb wax in a colony acts much like the "liver" in vertebrates, i.e. non-secretable (sp) toxins are sequestered there. Maybe there is a basis for the fact so many people "hate" liver. (2) "Dr. Jerry" has published extensively on the fact that bees are little flying "dust mops" and are excellent environmental sampling devices. (3) Any number of studies have shown that even the Antarctic is not "pollution free". (4) The practice of replacing the wax, not just redrawing it, is well supported by the results. Those stories of "all the foundation" this or that swarm has drawn out and how much honey they produced has little or nothing to do with the fact it is a swarm but the "clean wax" and timing certainly does become a factor. Frankly, "shook swarms", under appropriate conditions, show it all the time. Perhaps this explains your "mite control" results, might you not be using embossed wax "mite strips" for foundation? As I've said, something is going on but I'm not convinced of the cause and effect, that you propose is the reason. As this applies to AFB, holding wax at a high enough temperature for long enough will deactivate, but not "kill", some portion of the spores. You never say never and I'm here to doubt that some come through functional at the other end. Both these factors are as much behind the industry use of capping wax as anything as the source of most of the wax used in the commercial foundation industry. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:38:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: American Foulbrood (was Propolis and AFB) Hi Bob and All, You mentioned On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:59:33 -0500, "We get reports of AFB at our club from beekeepers with new equipment getting AFB in their hives. Rare but happens!" If the bees in such a scenario did not get American foulbrood from robbing a weak hive perhaps AFB spores were carried in the wax foundation. Currently beeswax foundation has been available at a fairly stable and reasonable price over the years. Prices would increase substantially if change to the manufacturing process of beeswax based foundations such as crimpwire and cut comb foundation to name just a few would require the inclusion of treatment for foulbrood spores. Somewhere there is a cost analysis of same hiding in a file cabinet. If a super strain of AFB were to evolve; well, it is just possible that it could quickly be disseminated all across the country and not by wax alone. Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 15:07:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid approved in Canada for Use to control mites in honey bee colonies-2005 To the List, Add to Jim's comments concerning the American Honey Producers and the American Beekeeping Federation the simple fact that the National Honey Board, the 'American equivalent to the CHC', Bob, is controlled by a board of producers, importers, and handlers, see: http://www.nhb.org/info- pub/board/bdir.html, who IMHO have the producers, ie. beekeepers, on one side of the fence and the importers and handlers on the other side of the fence. The handlers and importers don't care about the honey bees, only buying honey at the lowest prices possible, and they are not loyal to the American beekeeper. The answer to Bob Darrell's question, "Are there no American equivalents to the CHC?" is bluntly, no. I would wager that there will be no oxalic help from the NHB. Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 15:39:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Oxalic Acid approved in Canada for Use to control mites in honey bee colonies-2005 > The answer to Bob Darrell's question, "Are there no > American equivalents to the CHC?" is bluntly, no. > I would wager that there will be no oxalic help from the NHB. The National Honey Board has no charter to get involved in such issues. They exist to "promote honey". Right now, their charter even prevents them from even promoting "US honey", a weird situation for a group that was set up by an act of the US Congress. Changing their charter in any way would require another act of Congress, approved by a majority. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 18:46:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Natural Comb - A Curious Observation Hi Guys, In my top bar hives, I create a beeswax ridge down the center of each top bar. This ridge is produced by pouring hot beeswax into the notch of a wooden mold. The ridge helps the bees orient their comb building down the length of the top bar. This method works most of the time, but not all of the time. I wondered if I could produce a simple mold that would mimic the very first part of the bees natural comb that attaches to the top bar. This mold would still produce a central ridge, but the first hint of a cell wall would project from the central ridge at a right angle to it. It would be much like the wax remanent that is left when comb is cut off a top bar. So, I went back to my top bar comb shots and began measuring the cell sizes in the top row of cells next to the top bar. Guess what? With a few exceptions, they all start out at just about the same size! It didn't matter whether the comb was broodnest or storage comb. And within a row or two, the bees would quickly expand or contract the cell size to accomodate their comb building needs. For my tbh, these cell sizes ranged from 5.0mm to 5.67mm. The vast majority of measurements were in 5.63 to 5.67mm range. The average was 5.64mm. Well, I couldn't stop there. I did the same thing with the small cell Lusbee comb shots from Barry's top bar hive. And I observed the same construction pattern in this comb although the numbers are different. For Barry's tbh, these cell sizes ranged from 4.6mm to 5.83mm. The vast majority of measurements were in the 5.3 to 5.5mm range. The average was 5.44mm. What do you think? Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 08:49:01 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Honey show record MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know what the world record is for the number of entries at a = honey show? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 22:29:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <003c01c5cb3a$2a830b20$06bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison writes: I say burn the wax and not recycle. Reply: Bull!....the old way is to recycle the wax by melting which does indeed stop the reinfestation by AFB. It's just that many don't want to take the time to do it right, nor have the proper equipment to do so, nor the patience for the time it takes. But Bob, it is quite effective, and to me results are results...... For the spores of AFB can be destroyed in time by high heat and/or boiling and the process has been known for decades, like pre-WW2, and yes by us old beekeeping families. It is not hard, just time consuming. Since few had the equipment to process the way has been to burn, when this is not needed if adequate plants were available to properly process the beeswax. There are a few, but very few. Respectfully Submitted: Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 05:10:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oops! On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:02:00 -0400 I wrote; >>>... I'm here to doubt that some come through functional ....<<< I inadvertently skipped a word, It should have read, " .. I'm here to doubt that some don't come through functional ... A very different meaning that makes much more sense, given the rest of that portion of my comment, sorry for the typo. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 12:33:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Natural Comb - A Curious Observation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi dennis, I have noticed the same regularity in the midrib attachment that you have experienced, however I don't think there is anything special about the attachment. I think this is really just a standard form of transitional comb that starts free form. I do think what you may be looking for though might best be addressed in one of two options. First option is to wax a starter strip into your tb groove. Then cut it off with a sharp knife or peeler. Second option might be a properly calibrated inverse wiring crimper. Something where you can pour wax into the grooves and then run the tool over the ridge to create the bumps at the right intervals. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/ http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 07:21:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In reply to; >>>Bob Harrison writes: I say burn the wax and not recycle<<< Dee A. Lusby replies; >>>Bull!.... <<< etc., etcetera. (1) There is a way to recycle and burn that wax at the same time, it's called making candles. (2) Do you require so much foundation that your output of capping wax is unable to meet your needs? I find it hard to believe that the "raw material", for your foundation production available. is so limited that you need to co mingle those few diseased frames with the cappings from 900+ colonies. (3) The whole discussion of wether AFB spores are "killed" or only "deactivated" by high tempertures becomes academic and irrelevant under the scenarios proposed in (1) and (2) above. All this evades the accumulated environmemtal "baggage" that the repeated recycling of the same comb wax presents to the "suitibility / advisiblity" of using it for foundation wax. One has to wonder how "old" and what the wax from ">>> us old beekeeping families<<<" might contain, or would we rather not know? Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:02:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do you require so much foundation that your output of capping wax is > unable to meet your needs? I find it hard to believe that the "raw > material", for your foundation production available. is so limited that > you need to co mingle those few diseased frames with the cappings from > 900+ colonies. etc., etc. It is pretty clear that the writer is unaware of the following: 1. that arguing with Dee is an exercise in futility. She has infinite patience, she has been through this all before with many different people, and has thus far remained unmoved. Few of us who have debated her, though, can claim not to have learned some useful ideas and none can claim to not have been well entertained in the process. and also 2. exactly what Lusbys have done over the past decade or so, and their circumstances. Dee has gone to a lot of trouble to explain here expericnce and reasoning, and, although we may not all find Dee's way of doing things applicable to our own operations, and although we may not be completely convinced by all her explanations for what she does and has accomplished, we do find her arguments thought-provoking, and good things have come out of revisiting some old beekeeping arguments. We've all learned a lot in the friendly debate, and some of us, from several continents, have made a trip down to see for ourselves. Of that number, some have adopted Lusbys' methods and ideas, and others have even adopted that type of bee. To deral with the above query, I'll recap a few points quickly. When Lusbys melted their entire outfit (twice), there was no cappings wax available for a while, unless they bought it from others who did not share their scruples about chemicals.. They have not used all the nasty chemicals that their critics and many of those advocating avoidance of wax from old combs have used. They are in an isolated region where sprays and industrial contamination are minimal. The wax from melted combs seems to make a much stronger foundation than cappings wax. Obviously they are not suffering from a huge AFB problem, even if a few spores were to survive the melting. It is really their own business what wax they choose to use, and they do not have to justify it to anyone. (BTW, Bob has still not explained why he does not deliberately challenge his hives with AFB, although he advocates deliberately challenging with varroa). My final point is the lesson that each of us long-time BEE-L survivors has had to learn over and over: that each beekeeper and each region is very different; we can learn by discussion, but it is not possible to tell another beekeeper how he or she should do things against their inclination. Not only may the advice be wrong for the situation, but most won't listen anyhow. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:32:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (BTW, Bob has still not explained why he does not deliberately challenge his hives with AFB, although he advocates deliberately challenging with varroa) Terry Brown (Browns Bees Australia)called his weekly call last night. He is still having trouble with me jamming varroa infested brood into the hives headed by the queens he sent for me! AFB research is a hard subject to tackle in a public forum. Keeping a hive around with AFB is not taken very well by other beekeepers or your bee inspector. I have recreated (in the Past of course) the work of Rothenbuhler & Tabor in remote yards. I have talked to Steve Tabor about his research (still ongoing) with a bee which will tolerate AFB. I have looked at bees in hives with AFB in several yards in different states in programs to find a bee which will clean up AFB. Names withheld to protect the guilty! My conclusion is those bees do not thrive. They do better at times then have problems. Then do better. The hives dwindle (why would they not!) The bees are constantly fighting the AFB problem instead of the things they should be doing. I also believe there is a AFB active disease threshold for which a hygienic bee can control. EVERY swarm I every tossed into a *deadout* of AFB died like the swarm before. I have given up on a bee being hygienic enough to control a *serious* active AFB outbreak but others have not. Steve Tabor has not and Rothenbuhler believed till he drew his last breath that through breeding a bee could be bred which could handle all stages of the active disease. I am a long way from being on the level of Rothenbuhler and Tabor but it is my opinion the search is like the hunt for the Holy Grail! In my opinion a few AFB cells to say half a comb maybe yes. A complete rob out of a AFB tree deadout my *opinion* is no. I have often wondered why bees would even rob a deadout full of AFB. My experiments (past of course) show ALL hives will completely clean the honey from a AFB deadout. My argument in discussion with Steve Tabor on the subject was . If bees know enough to clean out a cell with AFB why would they not know enough to not bring the honey full of AFB spores back to the hive? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:22:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <20051009.072147.-305529.1.beerip@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rip, Bob, Allen and others: I guess it all depends upon whether or not you are afraid of the problem of AFB hurting your hives and your bees. You cannot build resistance to AFB with inbuilt fear in your minds, for honeybees that live in a natural co-existance harmonious relationship in Nature are always exposed. So when you reach a point where infection or infestation is co-habitat and mutual which it has to be, to be successful for saying I have resistance, and this meaning in less then 1-2% infection in relation to your bees, then you have avenues opened for doing other things for which beekeeping throughout the centuries has been noted for, for medical, building, transportation, navigation, and even religious thinking for how things should be and work. There is nothing wrong with processing wax with AFB and there never has been with attention to detail, for only when working your bees and processing all products in a whole-bee concept, as everything is related will you get ahead, for from the wax reprocessed comes the now new foundation, that then sets the stage for environment changes for your bees, and how they relate to health, mating, diet foraging, etc. It's like children nowadays being given dirty dirt and sand to play in to get reexposed to naturally occuring agents that could hurt their health later on and resistance. No exposure and no resistance builds. So it is with bees. You cannot take away the environment, so why take away the wax except out of fear due to imbalances from field management systems they are currently upon, or you yourself are using. Respectuflly submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:20:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <000501c5cd10$9ee1dbe0$1fbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison: Why Bob, you do understand. There is a certain level with AFB that even you leave knowing your bees can handle, and a level at which even you can tell the bees cannot, even though taking all the honey all around the AFB. So what then is wrong with pulling what they the bees cannot handle, anf then reprocessing the wax, knowing that you will end up with a product, though truly slight, that may/might/could/ or maybe not, have active spores left, though now embeded in the beeswax, that technically will not hurt the bees there, here in this placement wax embalmbed mode and reprocess for foundation? For the results would be on the smaller side of what you are looking at and saying is alright to leave for hybenic bees to handle! If you are not afraid of varroa, or chaulk or other maladies, then AFB should be no problem for a good beekeeper like you are, in your field management practices of the hives you keep. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:38:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <20051009212221.59413.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thought to Ponder for Rip, Bob, Allen and others here: Back in the early 1990s when I was video camera crazy filming in the broodnest I disected hives dead from AFB wanting to learn more. It was also the time Varroa was getting a good foothold in our area too. Bob......Allen has said FWIW that you put varroa infested I think brood combs into your hives to see if they are resistant to them. And the bees are from Australia. So question: I filmed me pulling out foul brood mummies from our hives, with varroa attached to them. Sorta like mummies attached to mummies. Have you pulled out any of the AFB mummies you talk about to see in the varroa infested combs you are putting in your hives to see about varroa resistance,if the varroa mmites have now gone into AFB cells and died with the mummies there? Not that there would be a correlation......but it could happen. Can you watch for this and then report back what you find and see? Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:36:43 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee wrote : > have active spores left, >though now embeded in the beeswax, that technically will >not hurt the bees there, here in this placement wax >embalmbed mode and reprocess for foundation? I work besides many other things as the head man for the AFB instructors in Finland. Also we have talked about the possibility of spreading spres through foundations. If I recall right Henrik Hansen in Denmark did trials few years ago about this. And also Ritter from Germany has done work about it. I heve talked to both of them + few other scientist. And they are quite well along the same lines. 1. Some spores do survive the normal wax prosessing viable. But the reduction is great. 2. No one has ever been able to infect a colony with foundations. Not even in trials when foundations were made from only heavily infected brood farme wax. In one trial a small level of spores was detected in bees first week after foundations were put into the hive. But they were gone after two weeks. No desease. The reason is most likely what Dee said. The spores are embeaded into wax and it is very unlikely that they come from wax to the food of young larvae. Maybe the apiary is more likely distroyed by meteorite than to AFB originating from foundations. Does anyone have a proven case of clinical symptoms of AFB originating from foundation ? Ari Seppälä Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:10:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thinking outside the box has been a way of life for me. I believe also for Dee & Ed. Dee has been willing to discuss her experiments more than me. Bob......you put varroa infested I think brood combs into your hives to see if they are resistant to them. And also to try and kill off half of the experiment hives in order to speed up finding a varroa tolerant bee. The method was first given to me by Dr. Shiminuki when varroa first entered the U.S. when I asked if there was a way to speed up the search for the varroa tolerant bee. I know of only one other person in the world using the method. We share information but I am under a non-discloser agreement with him and his partner (retired USDA researcher) so I can only give general information about their research. None have stepped forward on the lists to say they use the method. Are others using the method? >And the bees are from Australia. The method has been used on about every queen producers bees in the U.S. I believe but the current batch are the best queens imported into the U.S. from Australia. A line from Italy which is supposed to be varroa tolerant, a Buckfast line and a line selected from the best within the Australain lines. These queens under the test are my share of the imported queens. All the three above lines are also in my partners queen yard in good shape and have been treated for varroa etc. I can go get a queen from his queen yard if I kill all mine. My partner (and closest friend) shakes his head at some of my experiements. Terry Brown (Browns Bee Australia) provided the queens for testing in the U.S.. He calls regularly to talk and ask about my testing of the queens. Awhile back he wanted to know the color of the drones and workers in each line. It was then I had to tell Terry the colors and the awful thing I had done adding the varroa infestation. You what he said! >Can you watch for this and then report back what you find and see? I don't have any AFB experiments going on now. A friend in another state does with hygienic lines and he keeps me informed of his progress. I have not seen any AFB in my hives in years. If I did I would remove and burn. My partner and another area beekeeper had a serious active AFB problem in around 2001 I believe and I stuck my nose into the situation. I helped look at deadouts and helped decide what to burn. One burned around 200 frames. Both have not had a problem since and I am sure they would say if they did. My yards border both beekeepers hives (within a few miles in places)but I failed to get any AFB in the border hives. My experiments with AFB were done in the 70's. I had bought out a couple beekeepers with AFB problems very cheap (as no other beekeeper would touch their hives or equipment). I did quite a bit of experiments in a remote area before I cleaned the problem up. I highly respect your opinion Dee but burning has been the method I have recommended and used instead of prophylactic treatment. Which brings me to some information I need. I have been meaning to contact Jerry B. or A. Wenner for advice. Next spring I plan on running experiments on two different products which the makers say improve the longevity in honeybees. I need a way to mark the bees with a color so I can return in so many weeks and see if the longevity has improved. I thought of taking a frame of emerging brood and putting in my professional incubator , then putting the color on and then returning to the hive. What type paint do I use , how do I use the paint and what problems do I need to look out for? I hope the list does not say I need to hand mark each bee! I am only looking for a general conformation either product works. Not exact numbers for a study. bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:27:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <20051009212221.59413.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > You cannot build resistance to AFB with inbuilt fear in > your minds, for honeybees that live in a natural > co-existance harmonious relationship in Nature are always > exposed. If you look at the way that feral bees take care of AHB, it is not just hygienic behavior, since they can be overwhelmed just like managed hives. "Nature" handles the problem through swarming or absconding. Bees may carry the spores along with them in ingested honey, but they start from scratch at the new location, so any "infected" honey is consumed and a fresh start on clean comb without AHB is made. The old, "infected" hive is cleaned out by wax moths and other scavengers and becomes available for future use. So "Nature" breaks the cycle by starting fresh. Beekeepers, by burning AFB "infected" equipment and occasionally shaking bees onto foundation, are following nature. Recycled wax is not natural but is a practice of the beekeeper. It will work fine under conditions of isolation from heavy AFB. Plus, in the drawn comb the area of possible contact is small since the recycled wax is foundation and the bottom of the cell. The sides of the cell and capping are new wax from nectar. The risk is still there, since bees do "recycle" comb. It is just that it is minimal in a well managed apiary. But it is not natural. The lack of AFB says little other than it it not around. As I have said many times, my first hives (bought from a beekeeper) were heavy with AFB and I burned the lot. I have not treated for it since my fearful couple of years after that. But it is not nature nor hygienic bees that are keeping AFB away, but the lack of beekeepers in the area. Truth is, beekeeping is not natural. (And by inference, neither are Beekeepers :)) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:23:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: October Cover Photo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings to All, Have you seen the October 2005 "Bee Culture"? Did you pause a minute to look at the Cover Photo? Perhaps you have; this is a rich and wonderful marvelous and beautiful photograph with brilliant detail and exacting focus. I‘ve been studying Zach’s photograph on and off for the last couple of days; every time I pick it up I see more. I love this photo! This photograph gives the viewer much to study. This is a photograph about a beautiful young nectar gatherer, you can tell by the soft downy appearance of her fluffy furry hair. After landing and taking her first sip of nectar, she appears to have traveled just enough that she has bathed her feet and parts of her legs in pollen after having the mouth parts of her head immersed into the disc florets ripe with pollen rich in protein. As she has become immersed in the rich sun yellow pollen she continues to gather nectar on what appears to be an aster or a chrysanthemum above the stem but possibly something else beneath, leaving me to puzzle whether the flower is a member of the Asteraceae or the Symphyotrichum family. Her proboscis is shown extended and the galea is well dusted. Her entire lower body is daunted with bright yellow “dust”. The image is of such fine resolution that individual grains of pollen can be seen on top of her folded wings and on the bristles of her hair, even the hair covering her compound eyes. Her right rear leg is splayed below her abdomen clearly showing rows of pollen collected on her basitarsus, tarsus, and her foot, pretarsus. Her left rear leg is also heavily dusted with pollen on her tarsus and below, but her pollen basket on the tibia above the basitarsus appears almost void. Near the top and anterior of her right basitarsus there appears to be a shinny dark and reddish foreign object covered on the bottom with pollen grains, is this a varroa mite falling of its host? The center of the flower, defined as an aster on the first contents or “Features” page of the magazine shines brilliantly as if it were the center of the sun. It truly is like the sun in that it helps to give life and sustenance with its pollen and nectar to the colony far away awaiting the return of this lovely lady. I went back to the dusty old archives and looked for Zach’s last post, I knew that it had been a while. I did not realize that it has almost been a year short a month. Frankly, I realize that folks get busy, I do too; but I must say that I miss Zach’s enthusiasm and his expertise on BEE-L. Thanks for a great photograph and thanks to Kim for putting it where it belongs, on the cover of “Bee Culture”. Sincerely, Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC 27320 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:35:12 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: New laying queen behavior. [Swarm of Drones] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I have seen and heard about more fall supersedure swarms this year than ever before – a lot with virgin queens... I had an interesting development. I raised a young queen to try to overwinter in a strong nuc as a spare for next spring. She's a Carniolan daughter and of good size. She started laying a few days ago. I checked on her yesterday and found a very nice, larger-than-expected pattern and a couple of queen cells at the bottom of a frame with eggs. I was surprised to find queen cells at this time of the year. I've been feeding this nuc to give it plenty of winter stores. Perhaps they feel a bit crowded and think they should prepare to swarm... although they still have a frame they are drawing out. I suppose this behavior could be genetic. Her mother's hive typically has a single queen cell most of the time. I've heard Russian bees typically maintain a back-up queen cell but I have not seen/heard of this behavior with the Carniolans. Has anyone seen this? Waldemar Long Island, NY PS> My colonies stopped raising drones and I saw a few drones being dragged out from the hives. Yet, there are still numerous drones in the hives. It has been rather warm here although the weather is now turning cooler. Drone evictions should increase now... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:43:17 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Natural Comb - A Curious Observation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>For my tbh, these cell sizes ranged from 5.0mm to 5.67mm. The vast majority of measurements were in 5.63 to 5.67mm range. The average was 5.64mm. I have a question about how the cell size should be measured with regard to the cell wall thickness. Is the measurement taken between the inner faces of two parallel walls of a cell, or between the outer faces of a cell, or between the center points of two parallel walls? Thank you. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:08:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: October Cover Photo In-Reply-To: <200510101423.j9AEBPIT029620@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.beeculture.com/images/OctoberLarge.jpg -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:24:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Bees are brainy In-Reply-To: <200510072246.j97MDRpX000325@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/busy-and-brainy/2005/10/10/1128796449255.html Well, at least German bees are. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:33:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <000c01c5cd69$a8655300$23bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Next spring I plan on running experiments on two > different products which > the makers say improve the longevity in honeybees. > I need a way to mark the > bees with a color so I can return in so many weeks > and see if the longevity > has improved. Bob, Went to the annual open house at the Baton Rouge Bee Lab this last weekend and one of the concluding tests involved studying the life span of worker bees during the summer. They had actuallp placed white dots with numbers on the the thoraxes of the worker bees. Even with my not so good eyes the numbers were very distinguisable without any aid other than the glasses I normally wear. The guy running the test said that his company in German made the white dots. Might contact them and see what you can come up with. Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Al __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:38:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <434A6C5C.5000902@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bill, Glad to see that you understand also. Just like bees starting from scratch in a new locaiton, so any "infected" honey is consumed and and a fresh start on clean comb with AFB is made, and the old hive is cleaned out by wax moths and other scavengers, we/I become the scavengers for the wax, on badly infested combs and clean them out of infected hives down to manageable levels, which then gives the bees something they themselves can handle, not being overwhelmed then, which aids in developing natural resistance. Then by reprocessing the beeswax by old methods and not today's solar wax melters, we make new foundation again and what little, if any active spores are left embeded in the wax doesn't hurt the honeybees, as it is worked in their mouths and if ingested doesn't hurt them either in drawing out comb, which they do. For most all commercial beekeepers know that bees move around and reprocess beeswax in a beehive to drawout new combs as needed, and when ordering custom foundation many ask for thicker wax base knowing the bees will use it in drawing up the walls faster. Also, to note, swarms going into old cavaties do rework the remaining wax found there into excellent new combs and repair such quite nicely, foul contaminated or not.A good way to follow this recycling of beeswax in a hive is to place in colored sheets of foundation and then see where the color is moved to, aka the newly added wax foundation. As for isolation from heavy AFB isolation I think this is your POV, for whether isolated or not, old methods of processing do work, and have worked for us in isolated areas or heavy traffic areas. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:39:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: AHB & Arizona. [Was: Propolis and AFB] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dee, I've always read your posts with great interest and have gained great insight as a result. One question keeps coming back to me. Arizona, where your operation is located, has had Africanized honeybees for some time now. AFB take over EHB colonies. What is your experience with AFB taking over your colonies and how do you maintain your stock 'purity'? [I put purity in quotes since it's not possible to control it completely in open mating.] Have you seen more defensive behavior in your colonies in recent years? Thank you. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:52:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <002101c5cd6d$5ce57c80$2b24d5d4@pomi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ari: What you wrote is well said. Underwater bath processing is a way of doing this for reprocessing of beeswax, and has been used for over a hundred years or more by experienced beekeepers, and is how when wax is sent to commercial processors, it is processed, for saving the beeswax, be it from old recycled combs or newly taken cappings wax. I myself would have greater fear from today's contaminating chemical treatments then foul, as some of them are hard to break down in reprocessing of beeswax. So a question to beekeepers here on the list: Which is greater fear to you? Chemical contamination of beeswax from any source, and which ones are you afraid of? or normal hive maladies? Two such contaminate coming to mind........Coumaphos! and Fluvalinate! One a neve toxic and the other a memory retardant. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:55:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>...the way that feral bees take care of AHB... handles the problem through swarming or absconding. Bees may carry the spores along with them in ingested honey... Swarming certainly reduces the AFB spores. The swarming bees fill-up with honey which may contain spores. The proventriculus in the bee's digestive track removes some 90% of the AFB spores in the first 45 minutes. More as time goes by and swarms stick around in bushes/trees etc. for hours or days. If only there were a way to encourage the bees to re-cycle their honey in the hive! If they intook and held in their honey, eventually the spores counts would be reduced dramatically... :) Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:34:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Natural Comb - A Curious Observation Hi Waldemar, I never measure just a single cell, but measure a number of cells perpendicular to the parallel walls. I measure from the outside edge of the first cell wall to the inside edge of the last cell wall. Then I divide that measurement by the number of cells. These results are multiplied by 10 so that they are consistent with other cell measurements based on the length of 10 cells which is common in the cell size discussions concerning small cell beekeeping. Now, how I do it and how it should be done is probably another question :>)) Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:20:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar, When bees hold honey, they produce more wax. This wax being produced by afb honey still has some measure of afb embedded in it. Also bees do constantly move honey around. It is why it is impotant to remove a varietal crop when the flow ends, otherwise much of it gets mixed as the bees use it and move it to and from staging areas. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:20:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Natural Comb - A Curious Observation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar, Cell size measurements are taken 10 cells at a time. The thickness of the wall is taken into account and 10 cells in any of the three planes should measure 4.9cm top tolerance for full small cell regression. Although you measuring, wall to wall over 10 cells, when you do the math and remove the extra wall, the difference between same side to same side and outer to outer ends up being only +.1 or .2 mm when spread across 10 cells. So if you are measuring wall to wall over 10 cells and you get 4.9cm, then removing the thickness of the 10th extra wall, you get 4.88mm to 4.89mm for each cell same side wall to wall. The goal in small cell regression is to achieve 4.85mm cells, 4.9mm is the top tolerance or the no bigger than number. Some small cell beekeepers have brood cores of 4.6mm in a majority of their hives. I have hives ranging 4.6mm - 5.2mm with the majority of hives between 4.7-4.9mm cell sizes. For the record, I use no foundation at all. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:23:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: October Cover Photo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To the List, I have revised my post thinking that I have found two different varroa mites and a spelling error: Have you seen the October 2005 "Bee Culture"? Did you pause a minute to look at the Cover Photo? Perhaps you have; this is a rich and wonderful marvelous and beautiful photograph with brilliant detail and exacting focus. I‘ve been studying Zach’s photograph on and off for the last couple of days; every time I pick it up I see more. I love this photo! This photograph gives the viewer much to study. This is a photograph about a beautiful young nectar gatherer, you can tell by the soft downy appearance of her fluffy furry hair. After landing and taking her first sip of nectar, she appears to have traveled just enough that she has bathed her feet and parts of her legs in pollen after having the mouth parts of her head immersed into the disc florets ripe with pollen rich in protein. As she has become immersed in the rich sun yellow pollen she continues to gather nectar on what appears to be an aster or a chrysanthemum above the stem but possibly something else beneath, leaving me to puzzle whether the flower is a member of the Asteraceae or the Symphyotrichum family. Her proboscis is shown extended and the galea is well dusted. Her entire lower body is daunted with bright yellow “dust”. The image is of such fine resolution that individual grains of pollen can be seen on top of her folded wings and on the bristles of her hair, even the hair covering her compound eyes. Her right rear leg is splayed below her abdomen clearly showing rows of pollen collected on her basitarsus, tarsus, and her foot, pretarsus. Her left rear leg is also heavily dusted with pollen on her tarsus and below, but her pollen basket on the tibia above the basitarsus appears almost void. Near the top and anterior of her right basitarsus there appears to be a shinny dark and reddish foreign object covered on the bottom with pollen grains, could this be a varroa mite falling off its host? Could there also be a varroa attached to the dorsal apex of the thorax partially hidden behind surrounding hair behind the top of the left wing? The center of the flower, defined as an aster on the first contents or “Features” page of the magazine shines brilliantly as if it were the center of the sun. It truly is like the sun in that it helps to give life and sustenance with its pollen and nectar to the colony far away awaiting the return of this lovely lady. I went back to the dusty old archives and looked for Zach’s last post, I knew that it had been a while. I did not realize that it has almost been a year short a month. Frankly, I realize that folks get busy, I do too; but I must say that I miss Zach’s enthusiasm and his expertise on BEE-L. Thanks for a great photograph and thanks to Kim for putting it where it belongs, on the cover of “Bee Culture”. Sincerely, Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC 27320 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:23:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Natural Comb - A Curious Observation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have a question about how the cell size should be measured with regard > to the cell wall thickness. Is the measurement taken between the inner > faces of two parallel walls of a cell, or between the outer faces of a > cell, or between the center points of two parallel walls? Try http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/cellcount.htm for some ideas and some history. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:28:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee, I fear chemical contamination more so. Bees have been surviving nature's pressures successfully for millions of years, why should I fear nature and try to protect and keep my bees unprepared for nature. Chemical drugs on the other hand, like are in use today are not things the bees find out in the wide open. We put them there. Even such things as formic acid which occur naturally in hives are never present even in the smallest fractions of the concentrations being implimented. On the other hand, I do not use foundation, so I don't fear either in my hives really. Just pesticides used on crops and flowers around are my biggest concerns. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:02:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Scot Mc Pherson wrote: > Waldemar, > When bees hold honey, they produce more wax. This > wax being produced by afb honey still has some > measure of afb embedded in it. Scot, The AFB spores are consumed during the wax making process. An old method for controlling AFB originally proposed by Schirach in 1769 and later rediscovered, requires that the bees be shaken into a box in order that they consume the spores contained in the honey stomachs. The 'shake method' involves shaking the adult bees to canvas placed in front of a box containing foundation, so that the bees must crawl into the hive, where they are restricted from foraging for 24 hours while they build comb. This method works because the AFB contaminated honey in the honey stomach of the transferred bees is consumed in the process of producing wax for new combs. Whereas, if an infected bee is placed on drawn comb, it will regurgitate the contents of it's honey stomach along with AFB spores into the drawn cells. If no drawn comb is available, the bees will consume the contents of it's honey stomach in order to produce wax to make more comb. Consumed AFB spores are destroyed. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:07:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The wax from melted combs seems to make a much stronger foundation than cappings wax. A few years ago Dee very kindly sent me some sheets of her foundation from which I made a fibre glass press and passed some sheets onto others to do likewise. Her foundation is dark brown unlike the pale yellow we are used to in the UK and is a very strong and flexible material. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 19:55:54 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Natural Comb - A Curious Observation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I'd like to thank everyone for getting back on the cell measurements. [I used to perform mechanical inspections to 0.0001" accuracy at the outset of my engineering career... and wanted to be sure I was using the right datum to measure from...] >>...wall to wall over 10 cells, when you do the math and remove the extra wall... If you measure across 10 cells, from the outside face of cell 1 to the opposite outside face of cell 10, subract one wall thickness, and divide by 10, then you will get the AVERAGE width of a cell from the MIDPOINT of one wall thickness to the MIDPOINT of a parallel wall thickness (there are only two parallel walls in every cell :). No problem there as long as we are talking averages. I've been saving and looking at feral combs and find a significant variation in cell sizes across the combs. My observations mirror what Dennis Murrell has described. The cell width (and the cell depth!) varies greatly depending on what it's primarly used for which is based on its relative location in the [feral] hive. Ferals have great many cells at 4.9mm width but it's evident this is not the only size. >>Some... have brood cores of 4.6mm... I have hives ranging 4.6mm - 5.2mm... I suppose as long as the queen's abdomen can fit in a small cell it's not a problem...:) Emerged bees continue to eat pollen and grow some more. From what I've read, the smaller cell size in the broodnest helps bring out grooming behavior in bees. The other plus is being able to keep warm the more concentrated brood in the late winter when temps swing greatly. >>For the record, I use no foundation at all. Do you install empty frames and let the bees fill them with comb [as in a tbh]? Then you'll surely see a range of cell sizes across a frame. Bees will strive to lay out a natural cell pattern which has a cell size progression. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:18:14 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>When bees hold honey, they produce more wax. When a swarm hangs from a branch it holds honey but I don't believe it produces much wax. I have not seen a lot of wax scales even under swarm that were low to the ground. I did come across a swarm once that had been in place for 2 weeks and they'd started at comb building. But this swarm had lost its queen and was not going anywhere. >>This wax being produced by afb honey still has some measure of afb embedded in it. I did not know wax glands pass some/any foulbrood spores. It's hard to imagine it possible but I can't say it does not happen. I think there would be more spores in the hair on the bees' bodies. >>...bees do move honey around. This is very true. However, I don't believe bees hold the honey for 45 minutes or longer when they move the honey around. I'd think they'd want to accomplish the task asap. I think they deposit the honey in a new cell or pass it off to another bee to deposit in a cell within minutes in which case the proventriculus may not filter out enough foulbrood spores to make a significant difference. I do believe moving honey around does remove a lot of spores although it may not be enough to stop/prevent clinical episodes since one infected larvae will release millions or billions more spores. That's why I think TM gives the bees the time they need to reduce the spore counts to a level low enough that will not lead to clinical symptoms. This is provided, of course, that the bees are strong enough relative to the starting spore counts. I agree with Bob Harrison - a swarm placed in a foulbrood deadout will not clean it out on its own. It will not be able to get ahead of the spore numbers. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:18:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: New laying queen behavior. [Swarm of Drones] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my tbhs where it is easy for bees to build queen cells on the bottom edges of combs without the frames to get in the way, almost every hive has one or two empty and ready queen cells. I haven't seen a difference with race. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 19:27:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Doug Henry Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <20051010153811.29950.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Behalf Of Dee Lusby Then by reprocessing the beeswax by old methods and not today's solar wax melters Hi Dee, can you please elaborate on what you mean by "old methods" of wax rendering? Doug henry Lockport Manitoba -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/128 - Release Date: 10/10/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:28:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: lameo cool Subject: Push in cage queen introduction failure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I tried to requeen a 5 frame nuc at the end of September during the golden rod flow. The nuc was Italian and the queen was Italian with a small percentage of Russian genes. I killed the old queen and used a 4 1/2 by 4 1/2 by 5/8 inch push in cage (screen 8 meshes/inch) to place the queen with no attendants over emerging brood. The cage was pushed clear to the foundation. Field bees were not stripped from the nuc because of the danger of hive beetle takeover. When I checked 4 days later, the nuc bees had eaten the comb down to the foundation loosening the cage and killed the queen. Please give me suggestions of how to do better next time. Is there a good way to keep the push in cage from becoming loose when the bees eat the comb around it? Thanks for your help. Bob Maxwell __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:01:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB & Arizona. [Was: Propolis and AFB] In-Reply-To: <20051010.084003.14240.139018@webmail18.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've always read your posts with great interest and have gained great insight as a result. One question keeps coming back to me. Arizona, where your operation is located, has had Africanized honeybees for some time now. AFB take over EHB colonies. What is your experience with AFB taking over your colonies and how do you maintain your stock 'purity'? [I put purity in quotes since it's not possible to control it completely in open mating.] Have you seen more defensive behavior in your colonies in recent years? Waldemar AFB take over EHB colonies you write, but I think you are tring to type AHB. But either way, AFB does take over EHB colonies, and AHB supposed/may/might/could take over EHB colonies depending upon how one looks at what is actually happening. AFB cannot take over races/strains that are real races/strains in a harmonious occurring setting in real-life Nature; while it can take over enlarged/overly hybridized mongrel EHBs that by name are blended together and to me rightly called just EHBs for by any other name, they are just enlarged bees, Nature with AFB, is controlling. AHB being smaller and in a harmonious occurring setting in real-life Nature, can take over EHB colonies for smaller fly faster and therefore get to mate first in the race to the queen. For while smaller can get into a bigger flower, the bigger cannot get into a smaller so good. As you know we are into small natural sized comb and have been for a long time. Besides better, diet, and better health with our honeybees, we also get smaller bees in the same size zone as the so-called AHB for flight compatiablity, which then means if races/strains then breakout by latitude and altitude and climatic zone on Earth, then over time they naturally break themselves out. On top of that we help, by time of year mating and never keeping overly aggressive bees like beekeepers have been doing for centuries. Again following the old ways. But in following the old ways our bees have never gotten hot to handle and many coming here say our bees are gentlier then theirs back home. As for genetics testing, well they still run all the colors together for race/strain and cannot seem to break them out except for sizing IMPOV. So what really is AHB and EHB or any other bee then if still workable for production, and you have never had a problem? Just depends upon your point of view.......For bees without man's names are still yellow, and black, and big and small. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:42:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Scot Mc Pherson wrote: > When bees hold honey, they produce more wax. This > wax being produced by afb honey still has some > measure of afb embedded in it. > Scott, Isn't honey held by bees digested before it is converted to wax by glandular production in the bee? If so, the digestion process, then conversion of the carbohydrates in the bee's bloodstream to the complex carbohydrates of bees wax would eliminate the AFB spores that were originally imbedded in the contaminated honey. Correct me if I am thinking wrong here. Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, AL __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 22:51:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Doug Henry: FWIW today's solar wax melters do not decontaminate/clean beeswax of many of todays residues due to lack of pentration of sunlight needed to photodegregate, with a prime example being fluvalinate. I suppose FWIW also say beekeepers wanting premium price for light beeswax should also avoid bleaching wax to lighten with any bleach containing chlorine or using water with fluorine added which is hard to do nowadays, with so many municapalities/cities/towns adding things to help peoples teeth and kill micro-organisms that effect human health. We were in the county adjacent to Tucson until this past spring for several decades, but have recently moved to the hills of S. Arizona where we now have our own wells for water to avoid this scenario, wanting to get as rural with our beekeeping as possible. We process our beeswax using W.T.Kelly wax presses. We have three. Two for underwater bath pressing; and one for capping wax processing/honey seperation, prior to using the slum from here, to then underwater bath in the other two presses, while the wax seperated is directly used in dipping pots or assembly line usage for making beeswax foundation. We process the beeswax to old temps used early on by beekeepers, and published back around the turn of the 1900s by both Roots and Dadants, and later written about by E.B. Wedmore (who later charted the destruction of AFB, EFB and Sac Brood with temps and time frame in honey, water and just air). We ended up using Dadants early temp range from pre-1900),and this has worked best for us for both lightening our wax if we want/droping out the dirt/impurities (lightening not normally desired, as I throw in handfuls of propolis to darken and gain ductility/flexibility into our melting pots prior to making foundation); but for retooling our outfit the darker wax is desired as the bees draw it best and faster then the lighter wax. So we heat to just below boiling or not quite 100C for about 10-15 minutes,and then cool and maintain heat at 190F for several hours to lighten and drop the dirt (one batch per day in 24 hour cycle). Then with wax still in melter water bath, we put on the press plate and press the wax (in double burlap sacks) several times, say minium 3, loosening and then tightening the press plate to let water back into the sacks and out)to retrieve as much wax as possible (the residue left being good for gardens by the way so nothing is wasted and all is recycleable); then by adding cold water with bottom feed in only and wax slowly coming off top into wax pans we make our wax cakes for later usage. Think this is the easiest I can explain. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:33:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As wax is produced by wax glands and the honey is used solely as a fuel, how do the AFB spores get from the wax, through the digestive system to the wax glands? Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scot Mc Pherson" > When bees hold honey, they produce more wax. This wax being produced by > afb honey still has some measure of afb embedded in it. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:49:17 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe: > If no drawn comb is available, the bees will consume > the contents of it's honey stomach in order to produce > wax to make more comb. Consumed AFB spores are > destroyed. Yes, but it is not enough just to put the bees on foundation if there is good nectar flow on. Bees will bring in nectar so fast that they can mix the honey/ spores they have inside to necatar and place this on the first drawn cells. To have maximun results the shaken bees shoud be prevented from gathering nectar by closing the hive for 1 - 2 days. Do not kill them in this stage by overheating ! Shade, net under and on top. German istructions tell to wait until the first bees start to die from hunger, which is good idea but not easy to do. But 1 - 1,5 days will normally be enough . After this it is a good to feed the bees. Here in Finland some shaken swarms die for hunger after 2 days. Shaking removes about 90 % of spores from bees stomach. If followed by 1 - 1,5 days without food 70 - 90 % of the remaining spores are removed. Nowadays I always recommend this double method, but not all beekeepers will do it because of the risks involved. Ari Seppälä Trainer of AFB istructors Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:17:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bear with me. This whole article is mostly quotes -- interesting quotes. --- On Sunday, September 04, 2005 9:46 AM [GMT+1=CET], J. Waggle wrote: > This small cell test appeared in the September 2005 issue of Bee Culture, > in the article "Commercial Beekeeping in Norway" by Hans-Otto Johnsen > > Small Cell Test 2002-2004 > * 40 colonies were tested in the same apiary. > * 20 with cells 5.5mm measured in the broodnest. known as "Big cell > group". > * 20 with cells 4.9mm measured in the broodnest. known as "Small cell > group < etc...> And further... > What else does this new study refute? > > There is no AHB in Norway, so now the large cell advocates cannot say that > it was AHB influenced. > > Get out da way!!! ,,, the large cell bee house of cards is starting to > fall. ;>) Who says there is no AHB in Norway? Who knows, and who is telling? Who has looked? Queens travel in pockets a lot more than most will admit. Now this from the Apis newsletter, for those who may have missed it: > From: beeactor2001 > To: Apis_Newsletter@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 2:57 PM > Subject: [Apis_Newsletter] Apis Newsletter, October 6, 2005 > > Small Cell Size Controversy: The idea that smaller cell size is > better for bee health, including Varroa tolerance has been around a > while . Last month's > Bee Culture and a recent issue of The Beekeepers Quarterly featured > an article by Hans-Otto Johnsen that appeared to reinforce this > notion, and got a lot of play elsewhere, including Bee-L > > Inquiries to Norway, however, resulted in the following message: > > From: "Stine Helland" > To: "Malcolm T. Sanford" , > Subject: Re: Small Cell Study > Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:06:51 +0200 > "Illegal publication of test results! > > "About the articles: Johnsen, H. O., 2005. Commercial Beekeeping In > Norway. BeeCulture, September 2005, page 37-40. and the same article > published in The Beekeepers Quarterly, Number 80. Spring 2005. > > "A large amount of this article describes results from a test of > different cell sizes in beehives, accomplished in Norway in the > period 2002-2004. This is a test that the Norwegian Beekeepers > Association has started and are responsible for, a fact that Johnsen > neglected in his article. The Norwegian Beekeepers Association owns > both the test and the exclusive rights to publich any of the results. > > "Hans Otto Johnsen has had knowledge to some of the preliminary > results, because he has been one of the people doing the practical > work with this project. He has also been fully aware of the > Norwegian Beekeepers Associations ownership to the results. The > trust he has been shown, he has used against us, publishing parts of > the results in his articles in Bee Culture and The Beekeepers > Quarterly. It should be stressed that the total results from the > test so far appears to have a rather different conclusion than > Johnsen's. > > "It is important for the Norwegian Beekeepers Association to point > out that the test is not finished, that the results in the mentioned > articles is taken out of a larger context, and that Johnsen has > published some of the preliminary results without the approval of > the Norwegian Beekeepers Association. > > "As you see, we did not know of the article before you gave us a > hint, and we are very thankfull of that. If there are more people > who need to know about these facts, please do not hesitate to inform > them. The Norwegian Beekeepers organisation will send the same > information to the actual magazines. > > "Best wishes, Stine Helland." FWIW, allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:08:18 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Push in cage queen introduction failure In-Reply-To: <20051011002823.64037.qmail@web30601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Bob Maxwell wrote: > the nuc bees had eaten the comb down to the > foundation loosening the cage and killed the queen. When racial difference is so great, you need a stronger barrier... Have a look at this method, devised by Steve Tabor and modified by Albert Knight and John Dews. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/queenintro.html#ak_st_jd It requires more attention by the beekeeper, but it is foolproof providing you read the signs correctly. The bits required are shown on the page... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/obsboard.html Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:02:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Push in cage queen introduction failure In-Reply-To: <20051011002823.64037.qmail@web30601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-553D1691 > Please give me suggestions of how to do better >next time. I'm assuming there was only one queen? All too often, when requeening fails, there are more than one. So, if you killed the only queen, I would leave the nuc/colony queenless for at least 24 hours...even to the point of starting emergency cells. These can be cut out, and then proceed as you did before with the push in cage. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 10/9/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:59:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: October Cover Photo To the List, Zach contacted me off line and suggested that for a high resolution online view of the original photo please go to: http://www.beetography.com/ Thank you, Zach. Chuck -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:09:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AHB & Arizona. [Was: Propolis and AFB] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>...I think you are tring to type AHB. Yes, I meant AHB not AFB! (It's a problem having to deal with so many acronyms!) >>AHB...can take over EHB colonies for smaller fly faster and therefore get to mate first... I thought AHB produced more drones earlier in the season and, therefore, predominated but I suppose AHB drones could be faster as well. >>On top of that we help, by time of year mating and never keeping overly aggressive bees like beekeepers have been doing for centuries. Do you replace the queen from an overly aggressive hive with a queen produced from your known gentle stock? >>...many coming here say our bees are gentlier then theirs back home. Yes, folks from this list who have been to your hives have said it. This is very encouraging. I keep my bees in a residential area. Even though we are in the Northeast and have not heard of AHB-type defensiveness in our area, it could come one day. It's good to hear that a watchful beekeeper can prevail with a gentle stock despite of AHB-type ferals in the same area. I know beekeepers in Mexico and South America run hives with the AHB with the appropriate precautions. Someone from South Africa who keeps gentle scuts also posted here before. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:49:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike, Bees can consume honey as the needs change. Bees are almost always producing wax, but when need arises they can hold more honey for longer to produce more wax than if they are eating just enough to satisfy nutritional requirements. I could very well be wrong, but I was taught that AFB was so pervasive and prolific as to exist through the bee's digestive tract. Perhaps it is more accurate that wax gets recontaminated with AFB on exit from the glands, but I am fairly convinced that AFB is found on new wax also when a swarm absconds a AFB infected hive. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/ http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/OrganicBeekeepers/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:25:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Airport X-Rays. [Was: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Who says there is no AHB in Norway? <...> Queens travel in pockets a lot more than most will admit. I'm curious. Wouldn't the x-ray machines at airports be detrimental to caged queens? (Of course, most train stations, bus stations, and probably ferries and sea ports don't use x-ray machines...) I recall the US postal service stopped shipping bee packages when they x-rayed all their packages during the anthrax crisis because the x-rays would damage the queens (and the bees?). Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:54:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB & Arizona. [Was: Propolis and AFB] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Someone from South Africa who keeps gentle scuts also posted here before. The recent post was about a beekeeper which keep the black small African bee capensis which is not aggressive. Will take over every scut hive in the area and the hive will die. Capensis put the large beekeeping operation of Robin Mountain and his father out of business. A very interesting story. Robin spoke last year at our Missouri State beekeepers fall meeting! Scuts in SA can be very nasty. In the video "The Monk and the Honey Bee" with Brother Adam you get a good look at "Scuts". They are workable if you do not mind taking stings! Brother Adam did not like what he observed! Some Russian/Russian bees are very aggressive. I have got a couple hives which are "hot". One hive is in a yard on a fifty acre farm with a teenage curious boy. I have warned the boy and also his mother. If the boy lifted the lid with out smoke (or even with) I would expect he would get around fifty or so stings and the bees would chase him to his house. Just to be safe the yard will get moved later this month. One "hot' hive in 24 is one thing but like in Brother Adam's video 24 hot hives is a bit much! I talked to a person (not a beekeeper) on vacation from Arizona last Saturday at our market and he asked me about AHB in our area. He said the AHB stinging problem was growing in Arizona. Said he had seen a AHB swarm first hand and been stung many times. All I know! One of my favorite movies was "Young Frankenstein". I always remember the towns people on the way up the hill to the castle to rid the community of the problem. Keep your gates locked Dee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:18:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Push in cage queen introduction failure Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I tried to requeen a 5 frame nuc at the end of September during the golden rod flow. I'd like to add that our September was very dry here on Long Island and just about most goldenrod plants shriveled up and turned brown. Despite a good start, the goldenrod yield was rather low for us. A nectar dearth makes queen introduction difficult since a lot of idle bees are on the look-out for intrusions. Feeding will put the bees in a much happier disposition and help introduction. >>I killed the old queen and used a 4 1/2 by 4 1/2 by 5/8 inch push in cage screen 8 meshes/inch)... Not sure if this was your case but it's useful to check for a possible onset of laying workers. Sometimes a queen loses her scent to the point where the bees feel queenless but sometimes there will not be any eggs for supercedure initiation and some workers will develop and put out a queen scent. In such a case, the bees will feel queenright and it will not be enough to kill the old queen. The bees will spare no affort to kill the new queen. I use the standard shipping cage for introductions. I tried something recently that seems to work for me. I make sure there's a [natural or artificial] flow and I go into the hive a day or a day and a half after putting the cage in. I gently take the cage out and lay it down on top of the frames to observe how the bees behave towards the queen. If they are pressing hard against the cage, the bees are loyal to another queen's scent and I check for another queen. If I can't find one (rare), I'll place the hive over a strong, queenright hive. Any laying workers will not survive the gauntlet... (Again, make sure both hives have a strong flow or the bees will fight like crazy!) The next day, I'll make up another hive with young bees and re-introduce the queen. On the other hand, if the bees are friendly towards the queen to the point of looking mesmorized, I'll take a frame out, lay the cage on top of it, and open the cage. A couple of bees will go in the cage and the queen will soon walk out and walk over the comb amongst the bees. She'll stop, sometimes raise her legs and the bees will circle her to pick up the scent and to groom her. I'll watch for a few minutes for any signs of hostility before carefully re-inserting the frame. Spraying the frame with sugar water may be a helpful technique. I have done this several times with Italians and Carniolans. (I have no experience with Russian crosses.) If there is a strong flow and the weather is nice, I don't see hostilities. Should you see hostilities as in the bees trying to ball the queen, you can grab and re-cage the queen. Just be quick about it. I feel I have better control over the introduction this way. I can also take corrective actions before the new queen gets killed. >>Field bees were not stripped from the nuc because of the danger of hive beetle takeover. Having said all of the above, it is the easiest to make up a nuc with young and emerging bees for an introduction. And later join the new nuc with your other hive. >>Is there a good way to keep the push in cage from becoming loose when the bees eat the comb around it? I made my own push-in cages from #4 mesh screen to protect individual queen cells. (One can make a larger cage for queen introductions.) I push these cages into the comb until they stop at the midrib on my plastic frames. This set-up is bee-proof. I've had bees chew the wax down to the plastic midrib on the outside of the cage. But that's about it. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:02:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee A. Lusby writes >>>Then by reprocessing the beeswax by old methods and not today's solar wax melters...<<< What effect does a solar extractor have on bees wax that your "old methods" do not? >>>Underwater bath<<< Are you talking about heating and extractingting bees wax in water at a "rolling boil"? >>>AHB being smaller and in a harmonious occurring setting in real-life Nature<<< Can you provide any evidence to prove that being smaller makes them any more "harmonious" with nature? >>>For while smaller can get into a bigger flower, the bigger cannot get into a smaller so good.<<< You have mentioned this before and I asked if you had any proof of any plants that "big" Apis mellifera can't work that "small" Apis mellifera can, can you provide examples and the information on which these statements are based. I don't want to sound like a gadfly, but like Joe Friday used to say on Dragnet, "just the facts, ma'm, just the facts". I don't know if you are right, wrong, or somewhere in between and, I for one, can't decide unless I see the "facts" that, what appears to be, your suppositions are based upon. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:38:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AHB & Arizona. [Was: Propolis and AFB] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>The recent post was about a beekeeper which keep the black small African bee capensis which is not aggressive. I'm sorry, Bob. I was recalling a post from about a year ago. A South African beekeeper said he kept gentle scuts. Unfortunately, I don't recall his name but he included an interesting web link showing his bees. I did a quick web search for 'gentle scutellata South Africa.' The first sight that came up was http://www.answers.com/topic/africanized-bee. Scroll down to Gentle Africanized Bees. There are different strains of scuts just as there are strains of EHBs. >>He said the AHB stinging problem was growing in Arizona. No doubt. I would approach any hive in AHB territory with the maximum of pre-cautions [and protection!] until making sure it's not extremely defensive!! One has one life to live. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:58:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Airport X-Rays. [Was: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carrying queens in pockets will not subject queens to x-rays. Walkthrough metal detectors test for field capacity. When a ferros or other coductive metal is inserted to the field, it changes the value of the field. Since live bodies are not insulators, but conductors, the sensitivity of the machine (like a squelch) must be tuned down. This is why small metal objects sometimes don't set off the alarm and sometimes large muscular people will set the alarm off even when carrying nothing metalic at all and why you are allowed to pass when given a sweep with the wand (which is the same kind if machine). Its just a metal detector, not x-ray. I think you are right that x-rays have a chance of sterilizing bees. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:57:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051011.112348.-309201.8.beerip@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rip: What effect does a solar extractor have on bees wax that your "old methods" do not? Reply: They process the beeswax and not extract honey! ;>) Rip: Are you talking about heating and extractingting bees wax in water at a "rolling boil"? Reply: I think I said to just under boiling at about 100C for about 10-15 minutes and then bring the temp down to about 190F and hold for several hours. You want it close but not actually there, and the holding pattern will finsish the job. Rip: Can you provide any evidence to prove that being smaller makes them any more "harmonious" with nature? Reply: They don't get overwhelmed with secondary diseases and parasitic pests and parasites, mate well, and eat wholesome on their own even! Rip: I asked if you had any proof of any plants that "big" Apis mellifera can't work that "small" Apis mellifera can, Reply: Clover has been written about for years. Respectfully Submitted: Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:57:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Billson Organization: hopeless...my honeybees are better at it Subject: Re: October Cover Photo In-Reply-To: <200510111159.j9BBnh53024976@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Oct 11, 2005 at 07:59:55AM -0400, Chuck Norton penned: > Zach contacted me off line and suggested that for a high resolution online Oh my, seems Chuck's post has caused the site to be slashdotted. It is currently having "technical difficulties". :-) (Definition slashdotted see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashdotted) bob -- bob billson email: reb@nodot.org (primary) ham: kc2wz /) gpg key: 24B7FA67 reb@elbnet.com beekeeper -8|||} "Tír gan Teanga, Tír gan Anam." Linux geek \) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:22:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: October Cover Photo Sorry, Please try this,it should work better, have tested it several times: http://www.beetography.com/gallery/746084/1/32872654 Chuck -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:36:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: October Cover Photo Bob, I am now back :) had to use a different email address to get it to work. The site is working fine (just checked). for a direct link: http://www.beetography.com/gallery/746084/1/32872654/Large you can then click the "save file" to save the original file on your computer. I have 2 coming up as cover: American Bee Journal and Bee World also. Still have thousands to edit and upload but no time...My web has scans of a few other published covers. Zach http://www.beetography.com On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:57:36 -0400, Bob Billson wrote: >Oh my, seems Chuck's post has caused the site to be slashdotted. It is >currently having "technical difficulties". :-) > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:59:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Flykeepers? Why not? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beekeeping is getting to be a tougher and tougher business. Pollination has been an area where incomes have been stable, and rising. Beekeepers and growers have even employed leaf cutters, mason bees and bumblebees for pollination, and now I read this: http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1934 Flykeeping anyone? allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:12:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: info@MEDIBEE.COM Subject: Opinions on Apitherapy? - Course Being Offered in Toronto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Anecdotal and scientific evidence suggests that Apitherapy, the therapeutic use of bee products, can be effective both in maintaining good health and in the treatment of auto-immune diseases, skin conditions, infections, cardiovascular problems, hearing and vision loss, depression, and other medical complaints. On November 19, an internationally-known expert on Apitherapy will offer a three-day 'Intensive Apitherapy Course-Level 1" in Toronto, Canada, as an overview of the health benefits provided by honey, propolis, bee-collected pollen, beeswax, drone larvae extract, and royal jelly. For info on the course, go to: http://www.ontariobee.com/8_meetings/Apicourse.htm For general info on Apitherapy, go to: www.apitherapy.com www.apitherapy.org Do you think Apitherapy is useful and/or effective? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:04:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: October Cover Photo Bob was right. the hosting company for my site seems to be having tech difficulties...I am pretty sure it is not because of bee-L traffic... Zach -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:28:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB & Arizona. [Was: Propolis and AFB] In-Reply-To: <20051011.061026.28732.152263@webmail30.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar: I thought AHB produced more drones earlier in the season and,therefore, predominated but I suppose AHB drones could be faster as well. Reply: All smaller type bee (all those regressed down to small cell natural sizing or still naturally occurring in original homelands) races/strains on natural comb, exhibit earlier drones in the season, and carry them longer in the fall, and sporadically throughout the winter. Waldemar: Do you replace the queen from an overly aggressive hive with a queen produced from your known gentle stock? Reply: Can do this, or absorb it by dequeening and putting the brood into 2-3 other colonies that are strong & queenright. Old rule of thumb being: If too hot then on requeening it can only go gentler. But hardly see this, though did for awhile when beekeepers were told in this area to import queens (patented) and everyone bought different types. For it is known in animals, that each layer of hybridization can/might/could increase the degree of aggressiveness,so for bees, just like in cattle, and then add chemicals on top of this for treatment to our bees, known to trigger aggressiveness (organo types), or having just simply sick bees from secondary diseases, and you can create a problem for orchestration. Lucky for us, many in the area got out of beekeeping, and those left decided enough was enough,and washed hands, and went back to just doing bees again. Though pesticide applicators in our area and others, still promote AHB as a way of getting money from swarm cutouts associated with structures, like fire ants, and termites that may, might/could bring a house down in 1-2 months, etc. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:39:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Airport X-Rays. [Was: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway] In-Reply-To: <20051011.072628.29078.152910@webmail22.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig@netzero.com wrote: >>>Who says there is no AHB in Norway? <...> Queens travel in pockets a lot more than most will admit. >>> >>> > >I'm curious. Wouldn't the x-ray machines at airports be detrimental to caged queens? (Of course, most train stations, bus stations, and probably ferries and sea ports don't use x-ray machines...) > > If they x-rayed the queen (a plastic cage in ones pocket should get you past Scotts metal detectors) it is unlikely to cause any harm. The levels of x-rays used are fairly low. Anyone ahve any data on radiation tolerance in honeybees? Gerry B? Keith > > > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:20:43 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Shake method for AFB control (was propolis and AFB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The 'shake method' involves shaking the > adult bees to canvas placed in front of a box > containing foundation, so that the bees must crawl > into the hive, where they are restricted from foraging > for 24 hours while they build comb. (snip) >Whereas, if an infected bee is placed on drawn > comb, it will regurgitate the contents of it's honey > stomach along with AFB spores into the drawn cells. The other way that was commonly used in Australia back in the 1920'2 and 30's was to put in one drawn comb plus foundation. After a few days, the drawn comb was removed and this meant that any "contaminated" honey was also removed. This was done before the eggs hatched so there was no chance that "contaminated" honey was feed to the larvae. Remember that it is in the first days that the larvae are most susceptible. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:07:58 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: P-O Gustafsson Subject: Re: AHB & Arizona In-Reply-To: <200510120400.j9C3RXhx026434@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From: "waldig@netzero.com" >Subject: Re: AHB & Arizona. [Was: Propolis and AFB] > > >I'm sorry, Bob. I was recalling a post from about a year ago. A South African beekeeper said he kept gentle scuts. > Barry Sergeant http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/za/za-1-nf.htm for pictures. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden beeman@algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:44:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Airport X-Rays. [Was: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway] In-Reply-To: <434C6954.90301@sc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Keith Benson wrote: > Anyone ahve any data on radiation > tolerance in honeybees? I have no data specific to honey bees, but radiation tolerance of insects in general is higher than mammals. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:01:54 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does anyone have a proven case of clinical symptoms of AFB originating > from foundation ? Here in Australia there has never been a proven case of AFB attributed to foundation. This has been discussed at length by beekeepers and apiary officers for many years. Possible reasons for not having cases are:- 1. The encapsulation of the spores in the foundation. 2. Dilution effect where the spores are diluted to such a state that any exposed would not be enough to start an infection 3. It is known that when wax is processed with water, that wet heat will kill the AFB spores quicker than dry heat. It seems that the wet heat e.g. steam, will soften the outer casing of the spore and allow easier killing than the dry heat which seems to harden the outer casing and thus protect the inside of the spore. So if wax is melted in boiling water, then it has a greater chance of killing the spores. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Melbourne in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 04:37:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Airport X-Rays. [Was: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In No... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A lot depends on the definition of 'AHB'. If the term's restricted to scuts, it's hard to see such a tropical race lasting in northern Europe. If the term covers any African bee, then Tunisian queens were introduced to England in about 1892 by a breeder named John Hewitt, and hyped as 'proof against foul brood.' The same type was taken to the States by Frank Benton. Doubtless the genes are still around. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:28:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AHB & Arizona. [Was: Propolis and AFB] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Though pesticide applicators...promote AHB as a way of getting money from swarm cutouts...like fire ants, and termites that may, might/could bring a house down... I am sure exterminating outfits promote their business in less than ethical ways sometimes but there has been a reported significant increase in swarms throughout the south-west. It's been attributed to the expansion of the AHB strain. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 07:57:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB & Arizona MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks P-O! I had seen those pictures before. Barry used to post but now only does on rare occasions. I tried awhile back to contact Barry and finally got a response Barry was in the bush country. As to the pictures you can see the true (and somewhat famous) "Scut" coloration. unmistakable once noted. The queen in the picture does not resemble the scut queens in color I have seen and wonder if not a hybrid. I find it most interesting that the bees Barry ends up with prefer to draw a 5.2mm. comb size instead of the 4.9mm. the feral scuts use. Barry says in SA that the color is a good indicator if the hive is capensis or scut. Capensis is a big problem for Barry. Capensis is a small black bee and the scut is of the color of the workers in Barry's excellent pictures. The yellow is a different yellow than our Italian in my opinion. What does the list think? Bob Maybe Barry will surprise us with an update on his work and do a post.. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:11:52 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: October Cover Photo MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thank you, as well, for your description of a photograph which I have no opportunity to see.. Your sheer poetry description has shown me the "cover photo" very clearly. Eunice W -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:25:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scot said: Perhaps it is more accurate that wax gets recontaminated with AFB on exit from the glands, but I am fairly convinced that AFB is found on new wax also when a swarm absconds a AFB infected hive. Before days of mites articles on American Foulbrood (AFB) were numerous. I go along with Scot on this one. If a million spores will fit on the head of a pin then it would be hard for me to believe a swarm ascounding from a badly infected AFB hive would not carry some spores to the new location. Shook swarm method or not. Many tests were ran by the bee labs back when AFB almost wiped out the U.S. beekeeping industry around WW2. All methods had their drawbacks including shook swarming & BURNING. Nothing was working until the sulfa drugs were discovered at the University of Missouri to stop the active disease. Allen Dick has said on BEE-L (and I concur) that beekeepers which had AFB problems and have treated with terra for many years and then stop seem to not get AFB . Why we are not sure but I have heard from many beekeepers which had huge AFB problems and only started treating on a regular basis that when they would miss a treatment an outbreak did not occur like they thought it surely would. AFB has been the scourge of beekeepers since the start of beekeeping. Like most scourges the disease becomes worse at times and then almost non existent. When non existant beekeepers believe their methods are the reason. Before we learned the small hive beetle( SHB) was less of a problem in dry weather in the south many beekeepers claimed many of their methods of control worked. Then the rains came and the SHB was back proving *some of those methods did not work*! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:20:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: October Cover Photo In-Reply-To: <200510111736.j9BHY8lH021350@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zach Huang wrote: > for a direct link: > http://www.beetography.com/gallery/746084/1/32872654/Large > you can then click the "save file" to save the original file on your > computer. If you have not done so, go to the site. I agree with all that has been said about it. A classic photo. Zach, could you elaborate a bit on both the equipment you used and how you got the photo. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:53:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Airport X-Rays. In-Reply-To: <434C6954.90301@sc.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I've had colleagues carry other insects through airports for study purposes (with all of the approvals, certs, etc.) They have had some real problems out the other end -- but there are lots of stresses traveling on planes, so I'd hesitate to blame luggage scanning. As per bees and radiation -- Savannah River labs tested colonies (old study) in the lab, using gamma rays. Got not effect, or so they thought. When the colonies were returned outdoors, most died quickly. Keep in mind the difference being radiation (e.g., X-rays) and radioactive materials (often called radionuclides). We've sampled colonies near the nuclear fuel reprocessing plants at the Idaho and Hanford sites, around a variety of breeder reactors, near a graphite reactor, and (consulted with colleagues in Croatia studying post-Chernobyl cycling of radioactive cesium). Radioactive materials can and do get into beehives -- i.e., radioactive chromium near a Naval Test Reactor, Cesium in pollen (from sedges) growing in the cooling ponds of a graphite reactor, Cesium in honey from 1950s-1990s (bottles of honey stored each year in a cellar of a beekeeper in the Alps), fallout in eastern Montana as a result of atmospheric testing by the Chinese in the 1970s, military arsenals, etc. For the most part, these chemicals were in hives (honey, pollen, bees) in trace amounts, with no APPARENT harm to the bees. Two of the more interesting studies were the one tracing the history of nuclear development using the aforementioned bottles of honey, and a unique cycling story in Croatia where honey produced from shallow rooted flowers in meadows returned to background levels of radionuclides in a few years after Chernobyl, but honey produced from honeydew DID not. Apparently the radioactive junk was still in the deeper soils. Each spring, when the conifers came out of winter, started moving food up from the roots and out to the new growth (candles), the aphid population explodes in numbers, chows down on the tender vittles, and secret honeydew that contains radioactive materials at rather surprising levels. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:00:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For BEE-L readers: I have been in contact with Hans-Otto Johnsen and asked him for a comment.He is not connected to the Internet and gives a short comment: In the last issue of Apis Newsletter Stine Helland from Norway presented a very serious and surprising accusation concerning my article in Bee Culture Sep 2005 and The Beekeepers Quarterly spring issue 2005. This letter has also, I've been informed, been presented on this discussion list. With the following comment I want to give the participants of this list some additional information on the subject. I have only given figures from my own hives. I am in my full right to do that. Also I had an agreement with the general secretacry Trond Gjessing when writing this article. He and Stine Helland saw the article before publication. I'm a test beekeeper in the test of The Norwegian Beekeepers Association (NBA) and the agreement said I should not mention NBA in connection with the figures from my hives. My article is about my surviving as an truly organic beekeeper. In the concept for me surviving with my 600 colonies, small cell size is a vital part and the figures are mentioned to give the background for why small cell size is important in my concept. The mentioned figures are results from hives which I've got with the design described. I understand why you all now wonder why Trond Gjessing, which it is, now act like he does. I do to. The results from my hives 2005 are even more telling. Let NBA present their test and let's compare the results and designs of the tests. All tests and results are interesting. Nothing should be hidden. Keep on keeping Hans-Otto Johnsen __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:01:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Flykeepers? Why not? In-Reply-To: <010701c5ce8d$92bb0d90$b77ba8c0@Nemo> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Ok Allen, I know this isn't a surprise to you. We've spent a couple of years looking at onions and brassica - working to improve the efficiency and reliability of pollination by honey bees. Bees can be fickle about working these crops. Its clear that there was significant visitation by flies in some of the fields -- and why not? Onions stink, and that odor is the flower's way of getting the attention of insects that like smelly food. Whether you agree with my characterization of 'stink' or not, that's the game that onions use to pull in their co-evolved pollinators. No fruity floral scent here. Problem is, with agricultural monocultures where vast areas are planted to a few crops, with heavy handed pesticide spraying killing many of the native insects, and urban sprawl cutting up areas in a patchwork of field with highways, houses, and buildings acting as barriers -- native insects have a tough time, even more so than bees, since no one moves them around to help out. You just can't depend on the flies being present at the right time and in the right numbers to satisfactorily pollinate the crop (and I assume the interest was on seed production). No surprise the flies are there and may even do it better -- after all, they evolved with these plants. But what do you do when they're not there? And how do you keep them on the field that you want. Unlike bees, they don't have a central home (hive) that provides some influence over distribution. So Allen, I'd save those flies for flyfishing. After all, you've supposedly retired. Jerry >Flykeeping anyone? > >allen > >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:21:05 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor, to add to your point "3" on the dry and wet heat: Only with the wet heat as you called can transport (conduct) the applied heat well, the dry heat does not conduct the heat as well to the spore. A practical example is what you will experience in a sauna that is first heated up to let's say 80 degr. Celcius without any added moisture. In this sauna condition anyone can stick it out for a long time, but as soon as water is dripped on the heater (or stones in/on the heater) things change, the relative humidity in the sauna quickly rises and many people will soon have to flee from the sauna since they can't bare the heat anymore. The temperature was the same all the time, but the conductive medium "water" dramatically changed the effect on your body. Also, a person that just comes from the shower and enters the sauna feels the heat much more than a dry person who enters the same sauna. Sweatty persons that enter a sauna should be sent back straightaway, they should clean themselves first! Ron van Mierlo From: "queenbee" To: Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Propolis and AFB > 1..... > 2...... > 3. It is known that when wax is processed with water, that wet heat will > kill the AFB spores quicker than dry heat. It seems that the wet heat e.g. > steam, will soften the outer casing of the spore and allow easier killing > than the dry heat which seems to harden the outer casing and thus protect > the inside of the spore. So if wax is melted in boiling water, then it has > a greater chance of killing the spores. > > Trevor Weatherhead -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:28:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Shake method for AFB control (was propolis and AFB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I thought that AFB spores would be on the bees themselves as well as in the honey. Is this not true? If spores are on the bees, then there will be spores inside the new hive and on everything inside. I can understand the theory of the honey being digested and no contamination from the new wax buildup. I have destroyed bees, hive and then buried all in a large hole to keep bees from getting to the honey or wax that ran from the burning of the hive. Seems I wasted the bees. One hive once, was the strongest hive I had and all were very strong. I think this one robbed a wild swarm and picked AFB up from them. Lionel North Alabama -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 11:35:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto In-Reply-To: <20051012150051.69207.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To all BEE-L readers: I will be anxiously awaiting to see the final results for 2005 and heartily agree let NO test results be hidden showing only one side of a matter of interest to all and the colonies they keep. I am sure between Allen, Apis, Bee Culture,Dadants etc. and my big mouth, all will be spoken. Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 14:47:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Traynor Subject: Re: Small Cell Test 2002-2004 Conducted In Norway In-Reply-To: <007b01c5ce44$a3d3c570$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen I appreciate you informing the list of this information. No matter what side of the controversy any list member may be on the following link may be of help, even though the test results are older http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/cell-nf.htm I have personally seen good results in beekeepers with small cell hives. However, my open mind will continue to question whether it is the size of the cell or other factors contributing to the small cell beekeepers successes. Michael Traynor www.mdbee.com allen dick wrote: Small Cell Size Controversy: >> "As you see, we did not know of the article before you gave us a >> hint, and we are very thankfull of that. If there are more people >> who need to know about these facts, please do not hesitate to inform >> them. > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:42:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BEE-L moderators Subject: Troubles Joining or Posting to BEE-L? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am now back :) had to use a different email address to get it to work. >From time to time, we hear vague comments from people saying they were reading BEE-L and have wanted to join a discussion, but have had trouble joining BEE-L or posting to BEE-L. We have not experienced such problems, personally, or been able to get details of what exactly happens, but rumour has it that difficulties joining or posting seem to plague, and thus discourage, at least a few people who would be participating here. It is a known fact that email addresses with some providers may not work with mailing lists like BEE-L, not because BEE-L rejects the email, but rather because the companies or institutions providing those addresses filter incoming email very strongly and throw out the LISTSERV responses. If so, you should know that you are losing a lot more than just BEE-L functionality when using filtered email. Very few messages sent to BEE-L are rejected by moderators, so, if you have a problem posting, rejection by moderators is not likely the reason. Besides -- especially if you are new to BEE-L -- and you have made a mistake, you'll likely get a note of explanation -- the first time, at least. So, if you are reading this and cannot somehow get messages to BEE-L, PLEASE write to BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu and explain, as exactly as you can, what you do -- and what does or does not happen as a result. If you are not sure if you can post or not, you may send a test message to the list address, and the moderators will acknowledge that it arrived, but will not send it on to the list. Don't overdo this, please, but do it if you are in doubt. The management would love to have more people participate in discussion. Your trouble report messages -- sent to BEE-L with this subject line, or a test message -- will not go to the BEE-L list members, and will only be read by the list owner/mechanic/janitor/ and his co-workers, and may result in some improvements or suggestions. If you get no reply from the list address, then you may send the same message to moderator@honeybeeworld.com , as a backup attempt, since it is in a different domain, on a different server.. If you are having troubles and decide to write, please mention if your difficulty is in using the web interface, or in sending email messages or commands to the LISTSERV. Provide as much detail as you can so we can figure out if there is a problem with the system, or advise a work-around. In summary: When problems arise, the first thing to try is writing from another email address; as mentioned in the quote above, the second is to ask for help. Thanks. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:23:20 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Airport X-Rays. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have taken queen bees through in my personal carrage on luggage and have had no problems with the queens. I also know beekeepers who have taken queen cells packed in sawdust in a styrofoam "esky" and they have had no problems. One thing I noticed when I was in Amercia at Orlando airport was that I had to remove all my films from my luggage as it said they would be damaged. Here in Australia, a notice where we put our carry on luggage through the X-ray says that it will not harm the films. It would seem that there are different dose rates being used. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:00:53 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis and group, I wondered if any of you have taken the trouble to check what the average particle size is for the powdered sugar available in each of your own locations or better said countries? The reason why I take this up is the possible use of powdered sugar in the fight against Varroa mites, as for instance taken up here on BEE-L by Dennis Murrel and also on other lists and seen in the different research articles. The sugar particle size as I understand seems of importance in this application. Since we are beekeepers from different countries, I wondered if there perhaps would be industry standards that set the minimum and maximum particle size that sugar producers have to adhere to? Also, going by the names under which the finer sugars are marketed, it almost seems as if each country has several qualities of this sugar. Perhaps I'm wrong and do all the different names still apply to just one kind of fine sugar...but that's just what I would like to find out. This weekend I will buy some fresh Swedish powdered sugars from different manufacturers and measure some of it under the microscope to see if it equals the size of 20-40 micron that for instance Kamran Fakhimzadeh from Finland in some of his research referred to as "confectioner sugar". Ron van Mierlo ----- part of a previous message ----- From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: [BEE-L] The Positives of Powdered Sugar > ............................................................................ I now know it was > the powdered sugar knocking down the mites that kept those hives alive. > > Regards > Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:35:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: October Cover Photo Thanks for all the praises... I took most of photos at beetography using a digital SLR (single lens reflex), specifically D70 (now about $700 for the body), with a 1:1 micro (60 mm, about $350) which allows me to have a large magnification. It is much easier to catch bees with this camera (shutter delay of 0.06 sec, 3 frames per sec, 600 shots per battery charge) than my old coolpix 990, which has a shutter delay of 0.6 sec and often times bees would be gone when the camera took the picture, it also took a while to focus, plus I have to wait for 4 sec before the next photo and I often ran out of batteries (60-80 shots per set of 4 AA). I purchased about $2,000 worth of camera equipment 1.5 years ago, so there would be no question about the copyright issue. On this particular photo, taken Sept 23rd, 2004, I used 1/500 for shutter speed and aperture of f25 (thus more depth of field, some say the deflection of very small aperture, those < 14 would cause fuzziness, but I have not found it to be so). With such small aperture and high speed, I usually end up using the flash (onboard) to supply additional light. I have to check my note as to where I took it, but I suspect that right at MSU apiary. I can upload a powerpoint show file to my web site about how to take bee photos (I gave a talk at HAS this past summer), if there is a demand... or better yet, invite me to your local bee club :) :) here is a link to a MSU news about beetography: http://newsbulletin.msu.edu/july1405/honeybees.html a link to WKAR radio about beetography http://wkar.org/morningedition/story.php?storyid=806 sorry for all the self promotion! Zach http://www.beetography.com On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:20:55 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: >Zach, could you elaborate a bit on both the equipment you used and how >you got the photo. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:50:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It should be noted that powdered sugar and confectioners sugar are different. Confectioners sugar contains corn starch and powdered sugar does not. I am not sure what the difference is in relation to beekeeping. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:58:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) Comments: cc: Organicbeekeepers@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <434D5A46.7000601@adelphia.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Michael Traynor wrote: > http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/cell-nf.htm Hello Michael, I remember this test! AKA "the patchwork test" Brother Adam said: "In the case of the honeybee however the breeder is confronted not with isolated individuals but with a society, or to put it more scientifically, with a superorganism, an extraordinarily well regulated and well ordered system and a structure whose individual parts operate in perfect harmony." The study was basically a 'mite test' and not a 'cell size test'. They did manage to find out what mites can do, but not what small cell can do as it relates to the colony as a single organism. It is really unbelievable that the scientists at the Swedish University performed this cell size study failed to understand this basic fundamental knowledge as Brother Adam has. The suppression of mites from small cell works as a result of it's overall effect on entire colony as a 'superorganism', and not from it's effect as a patchwork, because the average cell size of the entire colony would be the influencing factor in this superorganism and not the patchwork. ...However, my open mind will continue to question > whether it is the size > of the cell or other factors contributing to the > small cell beekeepers > successes. >From my experience that it is NOT cell size alone contributing to my success. Most of the beekeepers that I know that have assumed this, have failed, or had a tough time with small cell. Small cell is only 1/3 of the equation. It's the small cell effects on the fundamental workings of the colony in breeding and other factors that seem to bring out it's full potential. Only after I regressed and forced supercedure did I see a great leap forward in disease suppression and other desired traits coming forward. IF I may quote Brother Adam again: "For long periods of time the bee has adapted herself to her surroundings solely by means of the weeding out of all unsuitable individuals. The experiments made by Dr. J. Louveaux, who transferred strains of bees from the Paris area to southern France and vice versa, are examples of adaptation to local conditions. But this means only that these strains or local types in the given conditions will, when left to themselves, pull through best." During my 3rd year of regression, I found that the commercial queens I had were performing so poorly on small cell in comparison to the ferals, I decapitated every commercial queen I had and requeened with a feral. IMO, acclimatisation of your bees to fit your environment is of upmost importance. Dee Lusby has mentioned 3 parts needed for honeybees to thrive. 1/3 is environmental, small cell size 1/3 is diet, selecting locations with a variety of nutritional forage. 1/3 is breeding, the Acclimatisation of your bees to fit your local environment. If one follows these things, they will have better success with small cell. because success with 'small cell organic beekeeping' cannot be done in "patchwork". It must include the "whole bee" and it's needs. That, is what small cell is all about, the Whole Bee. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:35:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: The Beekeepers Secret I can actually SING to an observation (a very loud "Ah...") and see that all bees stop (except the dancers and DVAVers)... a pretty good trick to show to people, but it is pretty loud... I learned about this when I was a graduate and got bored one day after 4 months of sitting in front of an observation hive for 8 hrs a day... try it yourself.... it even works in a real colony (with a frame out to observe). Zach http://www.bees.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:11:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: The Positives of Powdered Sugar In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some Icing sugar on the market also contained silica powder as one of the anti caking agents. Would using this type of material with bees be akin to a human ingesting broken glass? Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 22:27:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto Hi Guys, I have wondered about the original posts concerning the ethics of this article. It sure seemed more about turf than about tests. It seems the article only described the workings of the authors bees. I'm glad to hear that this is the case. I don't know about the laws in his country, but if they can control that aspect of his freedom of speech, they would be very repressive. But enough about the politics of the article. What about the observations made? Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:32:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Flykeepers? Why not? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So Allen, I'd save those flies for flyfishing. After all, you've > supposedly retired. But the feed is cheap. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:00:45 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Shake method for AFB control (was propolis and AFB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I thought that AFB spores would be on the bees themselves as well as in the > honey. Is this not true? If spores are on the bees, then there will be > spores inside the new hive and on everything inside It's the numbers that count. Honey in bees stomach contains most likely thoudands of times more spores that what is on her body. You don't have to get rid of all spores to cure the colony. Just that much that the probability of spore ending up to a young larvas food comes to about 0. With AFB you have to get hundreds of million spores to a colony to get it most likely with symptoms. > Seems I wasted the bees. One hive once, was the strongest hive I had and all > were very strong. I think this one robbed a wild swarm and picked AFB up > from them. Maybe, but not for sure. If I meet a beekeeper with lot of hives and only one yard with symptoms just coming up , it might be good idea to kill the bees to clear the situation at once. But If he has had symptoms in several places for some time the spores are all over his equipment, and killing some hives will not clear the situation. In Finland we are lucky to have free AFB analysis from honey in the state laboratory, so we can test all hives before we decide what to do. Ari Seppälä -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:19:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto In-Reply-To: <200510130227.j9D2JTnO004638@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- "D. Murrell" wrote: > > What about the observations made? Small Cell Test 2002-2004 The Test: * 40 colonies were tested in the same apiary. * 20 with cells 5.5mm measured in the broodnest. known as "Large cell group". * 20 with cells 4.9mm measured in the broodnest. known as "Small cell group". * All queens in the test apiary were sisters and mated in the same apiary. * when small cell colonies were given new foundation, the large cell colonies where given the same. Results: * Throughout the season in 2004 the mite population was significantly lower in the small cell group. ------> * Large cell group: The natural mite downfall average peaked at 7 mites per day, decreased and then increased again. * Small cell group: The natural mite downfall average in the small cell group peaked with 2 mites per day and then decreased steadily. ------> * Large cell group: An alcohol wash in Autumn during broodless period revealed 29% mites per 100 bees, the range was 3-64%. * Small cell group: An alcohol wash in Autumn during broodless period revealed 14% mites per 100 bees, the range was 3-26%. ------> * Large cell group: The 3% colony in this group gave a very small crop and was also weaker in strength. * Small cell group: The 3% colony in in this group gave an average crop. ------> * Small cell group: Averaged about one box stronger at peak strength in the middle of summer than the large cell group. ------> * Large cell group: Average honey crop was 79.2 lbs. range 17.6 - 125.4 lbs. * Small cell group: Average honey crop was 98.1 lbs. range 50.7 - 136.6 lbs. 24% bigger than the large cell group. -----> * An interesting observation was that the honey from each colony harvested the small cell group was more even, besides the top colony and had few at the bottom. The colonies with top crop were similar in both groups. -----> * Both groups were affected by chalkbrood. But anecdotal observation indicated that the large cell group was more affected. -----> * There was no observation that small cell size had any negative effect on the performance of the bee colony. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:41:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl David Lehr Subject: Request for Status Report on Zach's "Spartan Mitezapper" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Zach, Could you give us an update on your Spartan Mitezapper? Have you found a manufacturer for your product? Although we've only started out with three hives, I'd be interested in testing to see if our bees would remove the "zapped" drone pupa from their cells. Admittedly, I continue to be amazed at how neat and tidy our bees are although we have Kona Carniolan and Italian queens in our colonies (I didn't think they're particularly known for their hygienic behavior). My observations have led me to believe that the greater majority of our bees WOULD attempt to draw comb on "charred" foundation if not charred too badly. I had to scrape a few areas and damaged the plasticell foundation in the process but the bees have since repaired my clumsiness with the hive tool. I'd appreciate anyone's input, observations, thoughts and opinions on the above subjects. Thanks for the continued education. Dave sends. Dave Lehr Carroll County Beekeepers Association 1st year Beekeeper Westminster, Maryland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:14:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/cell-nf.htm I remember this test! AKA "the patchwork test" OK Joe. Tell us again why a properly done test like the above is not valid *in your opinion*. >The study was basically a 'mite test' and not a 'cell size test'. The test was a post capping test. Michael Bush says over and over on Beesource that small cell controls varroa because of a shorter post capping time. The above test shoots holes in that hypothesis! > manage to find out what mites can do, but not what small cell can do as it relates to the colony as a single organism. Same old song and dance. In other words who needs small cell. My bees are doing great on the size they are on! >It is really unbelievable that the scientists at the Swedish University performed this cell size study failed to understand this basic fundamental knowledge The study answered the question of post capping time. What part of that do you not understand? Joe said: >From my experience that it is NOT cell size alone contributing to my success. I personally doubt cell size has anything to do with your success as cell size has nothing to do with my success. First it was cell size controlled varroa and now cell size cures all the current beekeeping problems. I need to see some proof before I go to melting comb and making my own foundation. Downsizing a couple times. Go back to wiring frames. only use feral queens of unknown origin. >During my 3rd year of regression, I found that the commercial queens I had were performing so poorly on small cell in comparison to the ferals, I decapitated every commercial queen I had and requeened with a feral. Feral what. Queens which swarmed from beekeepers hives headed by commercial bought queens? Again with the mystery feral magic queen from unknown origin. You have got the right to your opinions but so far you are not putting up a convincing argument Joe! I think if I ran a test of small cell and the results did not come out as you liked you would say I did not do the test correctly. Perhaps why researchers have not done the testing. I see nothing wrong with the above post capping test. Quite a bit of work went into the test! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:13:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Varroa/Pollen Traps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Do any of you pollen producers out there find Varroa in your Pollen Traps? I was just wondering if Varroa might fall off bees when the bees go through a tight hole like those on a pollen trap. Maybe someone has already tried this and knows of the results. I haven't had an original idea yet, but I keep trying. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:21:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Traynor Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <20051012235836.26930.qmail@web34305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe, I realize that those in small cell may all know the information you posted. However, for the small cell beekeepers I have had experience with that information was never explained in that fashion. Even with large cell all three of these factors are necessary. Beekeepers that I know for the most part just put a queen in a box with some bees and brood and expect her to produce under whatever conditions. When things do not work well in the hive they blame everything except management. Yes, there will always be factors we can not control but a good beekeeper controls the ones they can, not leaving the hive to nature alone. Commercial beekeepers can not spend the same amount of time on a hive as a hobbyist. They therefore have to be more knowledgeable about the workings inside their hives to manage their hives well or their profits suffer accordingly. Queens need to be better selected for the local conditions we keep hearing over and over again. Many beekeepers I know do not seem to be able to grasp what that means in terms of temperature, forage, parasites, disease, etc. Thank you and all on this list who try to make us all better beekeepers. I would rather learn from others successes and failures then have to make them all myself. Life is just too short for that. Michael Traynor www.mdbee.com J. Waggle wrote: >1/3 is environmental, small cell size >1/3 is diet, selecting locations with a variety of >nutritional forage. >1/3 is breeding, the Acclimatisation of your bees to >fit your local environment. > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:19:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: October Cover Photo In-Reply-To: <200510122335.j9CNQWYx025350@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zach Huang wrote: > I can upload a powerpoint show file to my web site about how to take bee photos (I > gave a talk at HAS this past summer), if there is a demand... One vote, yes. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:34:09 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: TBH question. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I read Dennis Murrell's website on the design and management of top bar hives (TBHs) with great interest. It said bees tended to attach combs to the walls and bottom of the hive and the combs beyond the broodnest often come out curved. The tbh combs are also fragile, especially in hot weather. My first question is: instead of just top bars, can trapezoidal frames be used? One would still allow the bees to build their combs from scratch and arrange the combs per their needs. These frames would always stay in the same order so as not to disrupt the bees' arrangement. One drawback that comes to mind with trapezoidal frames might be an alteration of the bees' ventilation scheme... My second question is: has anyone tried lettting the bees produce their combs from scratch (no foundation) in empty Langstroth frames in standard equitment? Did the bees follow the frame structure or did they orient their combs differently? Waldemar PS. I was called to remove a feral colony from an eave of a house this coming Saturday. I'll be paying particular attention to the natural arrangement of the feral combs... :) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:37:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Help in Paraguay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, My youngest daughter is in Paraguay in the Peace Corp. A UN organization has just dropped off a few dozen boxes (+ tops/bots),foundation, gloves and hats/veils (no suits) and hive tools and two 2f extractors in the village where she is. There are a couple families in her town with 2-3 hives of AHB. My daughter has worked bees w/me a little and wants me to come down and help her out in getting the people started. I probably will.. Oh yeah,they grow cotton and canola and soybeans in various places near her. She will either have to catch swarms or get bees from a commercial beek down there. I am a commercial beek in N.Alabama. Any ideas, comments, suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks John Horton . -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:39:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Shake method for AFB control (was propolis and AFB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > With AFB you have to get hundreds of million spores to a colony to get it most likely with symptoms. And if a million spores will fit on the head of a pin? Also saying you would need "hundreds of million of spores" for an outbreak is not a hypothesis I have not heard before but not a veiw held by all researchers as a hypothesis hard to prove or disprove in a lab situation. As I said in an earlier post for some unknown reason the AFB spores do not cause an immediate outbreak but lay dormet until conditions are right. AFB has confounded (at times) some of our brightest beekeeping minds. I also do not believe (although I have a decent collection of old books) that the answers our current beekeeping problems can be found in text of 100 year old books. Books with pictures of the old master working bees in a double breasted suit, white shirt and tie and a gandy looking helper in bib overalls. > it might be good idea to kill the bees to clear the situation at once. But If he has had symptoms in several places for some time the spores are all over his equipment, and killing some hives will not clear the situation. The U.S. AFB problem (huge & pre WW 2 ) is well documented in the old bee magazines. They clearly said that burning did not and in the opinion of the USDA at the time was going to control the problem. When the situation gets totally out of control then the use of a chemical was the only solution. There are many places in the world which have never seen such a huge AFB problem and when small and contained many solutions can be used. Reusing wax from an AFB deadouts was illegal during those years due to research which showed the AFB spores survived the process. As I said before. Why take the risk? At times I have bought plastic foundation unwaxed and waxed myself. I use my best cappings wax. Would not dream of using recycled AFB brood comb wax! For most commercial beekeepers the plastic foundation as been a wonderful beekeeping tool. A wax moth deadout can be cleared in a minute with little waste instead minutes and set back for new foundation and wiring. I have developed some super fast beekeeping techniques using divided top & bottom bars and plastic foundation. Time & labor are important concerns to me. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:30:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: TBH question. In-Reply-To: <20051013.063507.23397.187514@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar > can trapezoidal frames be used? Yes, they have been used at odd times over a couple of centuries, but the only modern use is in Kirchhain nucleus hives. http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/kirchhainframe.html http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/kirchhain.html (I will chase up the missing drawing later today) > has anyone tried lettting the bees produce their combs > from scratch (no foundation) in empty Langstroth frames I have done this with British frames, however there would have been traces of wax or maybe the smell of it. I understand this has been done in British Columbia in Langstroth frames by Grizzly Bearnolds who currently does not subscribe to this list. As far as I can tell it does not influence what the bees do in attaching the comb to the frames, but if you give them a box full of empty frames they are just as likely to build crosswise or diagonal in the space rather than in the frame. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:26:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Help in Paraguay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Any ideas, comments, suggestions will be appreciated. If typical AHB (they not be) then bring suits and the large type smoker. Duck tape all entrance points. John most likely already knows what I am going to say but others might not! Bees will sting through conventional coveralls when wet with sweat or pressed against the skin. Baggy is best! The string veils are not as good as upright zipper veils when dealing with aggressive bees in my opinion but in use in those areas. As you work the veil many times rides up in the front allowing an entrance point for "bees in your bonnet!" A piece of duct tape helps. Better to be safe than sorry. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:15:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Varroa/Pollen Traps In-Reply-To: <20051013121305.90960.qmail@web32105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, the five wire they crawl thru does this and has been noted for years. Then the mites drop down thru the 7 wire into the draws. It is normally brougut up in classes taught on pollen traping and making own traps. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:22:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Varroa/Pollen Traps In-Reply-To: <20051013121305.90960.qmail@web32105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1D12B94 > Do you find Varroa in your Pollen Traps? Never have...I always look. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 10/9/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:23:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: October Cover Photo In-Reply-To: <434E5EC8.2000902@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1D12B94 > One vote, yes. Two votes, yes. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 10/9/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:28:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Shake method for AFB control (was propolis and AFB) In-Reply-To: <002101c5cffb$87d43720$1bbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1D12B94 > > With AFB you have to get hundreds of million spores to a colony to get it >most likely with symptoms. Isn't the LD 50...35 spores, fed to a larvae the correct numbers of hours old? Thought I read that somewhere. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 10/9/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 12:41:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Help in Paraguay On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Bob Harrison wrote: On zipper veils I quite heartly concurr with Bob: "The string veils are not as good as upright zipper veils when dealing with aggressive bees in my opinion but in use in those areas. As you work the veil many times rides up in the front allowing an entrance point for 'bees in your bonnet!' A piece of duct tape helps." Also, if your helmet is of the type having louvers then covering those louvers and any opening 1/4 inch or larger with duct tape is essential to your safety, its amazing how a bee will squeeze into a hole. If they can they will! Cheers, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:11:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl David Lehr Subject: Re: October Cover Photo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ZACH << I can upload a powerpoint show file to my web site about how to take bee photos (I gave a talk at HAS this past summer), if there is a demand... or better yet, invite me to your local bee club. Zach REPLY << Please upload your file and in the meantime, I'll look into inviting you to our local bee association. Thanks. Dave Dave Lehr Carroll County Beekeepers Association 1st year Beekeeper Westminster, Maryland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:37:32 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Shake method for AFB control (was propolis and AFB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >for some unknown reason the AFB spores do not >cause an immediate outbreak but lay dormet until conditions are right. AFB >has confounded (at times) some of our brightest beekeeping minds. I have also tought about this. We know that it only takes 3 - 4 spores if they are fed to a single larva at the right time to get AFB symptoms. We also know that spores are viable for a long time. We have had a positive reaction fron frames about 15 years old, but I know of much older results. 1 dead larva makes about 2 -3 billion spores. These can hang aruound in hive for many years in honey, pollen, bees and expecially in old brood combs. So it is more question of probability - not conditions - if you get visible AFB after many years not seeing it. OK I admit that if you have weak colonies because for example varroa - you are more likely add up to the probability, so conditions have a effect, but probabities have a strong side. Would be nice to see a mathematician to work with a biologist to think about this. Some beekeepers are lucky and win money from lottery. Some beekeepers are extreamly unlucy and get AFB from just few spores. Every year a lot of spores go out of the hive with extracted honey, bee excrements etc. But some remain hoping to get the right time and place for themselves. > There are many places in the world which have never seen such a huge AFB > problem and when small and contained many solutions can be used. Yes, one reason in Finland is that we have never had much feral colonies. Also the density of colonies is high only in small part of the country. Which is by the way the area with most AFB. 50 % of beekeepers in this area have AFB spores in their random honey sample. But they dont have a lot visible desease, even when very few ( less than 5 % ) of them use antibiotics. Ari Seppälä -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:16:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: TBH question. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks, Dave. (Your website, as always, provides great information!) >>(I will chase up the missing drawing later today) If I decide to build my own TBHs, I'll put a drawing together in AutoCAD. It will be quite easy to off-set the lines representing the inner surfaces of the tbh, by the equivalent of the bee-space, to get the envelope size for a trapezoidal frame. >>I have done this with British frames... I would be most interested in knowing if there was the same cell size gradation in the vertical direction as on natural comb (without foundation to force a pattern). I am wondering if the gap between the frames disrupts the bees natural drive for cell size gradation? Did you happen to notice? I found Dennis Murrell's description of the cell size gradation in natural comb as very reasonable. On such comb, bees raise more smaller bees in the fall and spring [influencing better hive pest removal at these critical times]. They raise more larger bees in the spring as brood rearing expands [which may help secure a larger harvest...?]. >>...if you give them a box full of empty frames they are just as likely to build crosswise or diagonal... Dennis uses a sort of starter strip in his TBH bars. I am thinking a fairly narrow starter strip can be used in empty Langstroth frames to encourage bees to keep the combs straight... If this can be done while allowing bees to vary the cell size as they naturally do, then perhaps I won't have to build a TBH... :) The key would be a starter strip that is neutral to the bees... I have seen pictures of vertical feral hives and there appears to be the same cell size gradation as in long, TBH-like hives. Natural comb in Langstroth equipment would diminish the issues of time-consuming inspections and smaller honey harvests in a TBH. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:02:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee A. Lusby writes; >>>They process the beeswax and not extract honey! ;>)<<< Based on the ";>)" I assume there is a "joke/pun/dig/double entente (sp)" involved in the reply but, if so, it is lost on me. I'd be the first to admit that I often hover somewhere below 5 on a mental density scale of 1 -10, but I can't make any sense out of this reply at any level. I can enjoy/take a joke as well as the next person, but, if this is a joke, it went over my head. They both "process" wax but neither "extracts" honey. They both remove impurities from the wax by heating, the only difference I see is the presence of water in one case and sun light on the other. What am I missing here? >>>They don't get overwhelmed with secondary diseases and parasitic pests and parasites, mate well, and eat wholesome on their own even!<<< That is not "evidence" rather it is personal opinion, supposition, etc. The same could be said for my, and a lot of other people's, bees. That includes "coping" with Varroa albeit with a little, largely non chemical, "help from their friends". >>>Clover<<< A lot has been written about bumble bees versus honeybees and red clover. The issue there is tongue lenght between species not within a species. Can you cite any reference showing that the difference in tongue lenght between "big" Apis mellifera and little Apis mellifera? In a related vein they were able to select for Apis mellifera that would trip alfafa flowers instead of "side working" the blossem, but this involved "preference", and a high threshold to abusive treatment by the flower, not a different tongue lenght. Do you have a clover reference I haven't found (seen)? Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:08:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Corneal honeybee sting At times, during the many discussions about bee stings, someone will mention that being stung in the eye can cause blindness. Others will sometimes mention that the chance of being stung directly in the eye itself, due to the almost instantaneous blink reflex, is so rare as to be almost nonexistent. Then the discussion can get heated and even theatrical. A lot of people have been stung around the eyes and on the eyelids themselves, though (including yours truly). A few days ago while searching for something else on the internet, I stumbled across this: http://tinyurl.com/eyqot Thought it might be of interest. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:16:59 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Shake method for AFB control (was propolis and AFB) Comments: To: Bob Harrison In-Reply-To: <002101c5cffb$87d43720$1bbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > With AFB you have to get hundreds of million spores to a colony to get it > most likely with symptoms. > > And if a million spores will fit on the head of a pin? Then you need 50 pins per litre of honey to have a minimal infective dose (MID). :-) MID = 50,000,000 spores per litre. I'm too lazy to dig out and cite the references but this has been researched back in the '50s (I think) and confirmed by further work in the '90s. >From memory I think the number of spores in one scale is around 2.5 billion!. However it's important to remember that the brood becomes infected by being fed infectious material with at least the MID. It's unlikey that these spores just fall into the mouth of the waiting larvae from "blowing around" in the hive. This concentration of spores must therefore find its way into the food fed to the larvae. Infectious honey is by far and away the most common source. The biggest problem beekeepers have in determining the AFB source is establishing cause and effect. Where small scraps of MID honey are covered over by fresh honey, it may be several seasons before the hive gets down to the dregs - and up pops AFB - with no apparent cause in sight. Add suppression of symptoms with drugs into this mix, and you may never be sure where it came from. One observation we made, is that syrup feeding enables the hvies to be run on much lower reserves/safety margins of honey (that could be MID), so cause and effect becomes more immediate and therefore more apparent. At this point the simple rules for emliminating AFB become more obvious. 1. Beekeepers spread most (nearly all) AFB 2. Finding more than you're spreading = reducing levels. 3. Never remove anything from a beehive (brood, honey) without checking for AFB - if nothing else, inspect hives at honey harvest time! Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:59:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Corneal honeybee sting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At times, during the many discussions about bee stings, someone will > mention that being stung in the eye can cause blindness. Others will > sometimes mention that the chance of being stung directly in the eye > itself, due to the almost istantaneous blink reflex, is so rare as to be > almost nonexistent. We had an employee stung dead-centre on the pupil. We drove him to the hospital, and the GP on duty removed the stinger. AFAIK, the employee had no further problem. He was at work the next day. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:39:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <001001c5cfac$adfa1720$0fbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob said: I need to see some proof before I go to melting comb and making my own foundation. Downsizing a couple times. Go back to wiring frames. only use feral queens of unknown origin. Reply: Sorry Bob, but I cannot resist saying this: For the time it would take you, you are now too old to accomplish the task. Better to sell your bees down, retire,and leave it to the younger generation now coming on. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby Small cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 04:28:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TBH Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My TBH is hemi-cylindrical and I get very little comb attachment to the side wall; sometimes the first couple of inches on a newly drawn comb but once this has been cut with a hive tool they don't re-attach. I draw a bead of wax down the centre line of the bars using a lump of wax and a soldering iron and they generally follow this start. Sometimes they stray off course but the alignment can be adjusted with gentle pressure from a hive tool. When comb has been removed then an imprint of the previous start or an 8th of an inch left is enough to get them to make fresh combs on the straight and narrow. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:57:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: TBH question. In-Reply-To: <20051013.141719.23397.196206@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar Regarding trapezoidal frames... There was another approach used in UK, have a look at... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/catenary.html > if there was the same cell size gradation in the vertical direction At the time I made the original observations, I was not interested in comb structure and sizing. I was actually looking at some colonies that wished to build comb in a particular compass direction. I can say that there was nothing unusual on the combs that were produced to attract my attention, but that of course is not definitive. > Dennis Murrell's description of the cell size gradation in > natural comb Dennis has opened my eyes to look more discerningly, the observation that cells vary in size is easy to see (once you know it is there), but inferences as to why it is done and how it affects the colony can not yet be made. > On such comb, bees raise more smaller bees in the fall and spring > [influencing better hive pest removal at these critical times]. I do not see that the two statements are linked, how can you demonstrate this ?? > They raise more larger bees in the spring as brood rearing expands > [which may help secure a larger harvest...?]. Again, what equates larger bees with a bigger harvest ?? > a fairly narrow starter strip can be used in empty Langstroth > frames to encourage bees to keep the combs straight... The strip or bead of wax can be quite minimal, see... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cutcombbars.html Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 04:16:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <20051014043943.35559.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: In reference to the "the patchwork test" > > OK Joe. Tell us again why a properly done test like > the above is not valid > *in your opinion*. Ok Bob, Sure! A one season test proves zero in my book with new hives! This test would be considered primitive by research standards no matter what the testing was trying to prove. Small cell is not the issue here but rather methods used. If you want the researchers to put* merit in your testing* you have to follow their rules. They have to be able to go out and do the same experiment and get similar results. I have ran many many similar tests on hives. I have published none as I know what researchers think of primitive tests. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:25:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051013.180300.-318953.1.beerip@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rip, Dee & all > Can you cite any reference showing that the difference in tongue lenght > between "big" Apis mellifera and little Apis mellifera? This is not a direct answer to the question posed, but it casts doubt on the linearity of relationship of individual features in comparison to body size. It was conjectured, by Dee, that tracheal mites may have come about as an adaption of external mites that became able to enter the major tracheal spiracle, due to an increase in average body size in bees, which in turn was due to enlarged foundation. A study has been made, and is about to be published, by John McMullen... This study showed that for a body size shift of 10% there was only a 1% change in the diameter of the tracheal orifice. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:35:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lanfeust Subject: Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto In-Reply-To: <200510130227.j9D2JTnO004638@listserv.albany.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I don't know about the laws in his country, but if they can control that > aspect of his freedom of speech, they would be very repressive. Norway ranks first since 3 years in a row in the worldwide index of press freedom published by independant reporters associations : http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715 Hervé Qc, Canada -- Hervé www.emelys.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:58:44 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: TBH Question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>My TBH is hemi-cylindrical... Chris, do you also see a cell size variation in your hives? Do you happen to have any pictures of your hives and frames on the web? Do you have to treat for varroa? Or do your bees survive with mites? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:19:45 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Shake method for AFB control (was propolis and AFB) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>We know that it only takes 3 - 4 spores if they are fed to a single larva at the right time to get AFB symptoms. <...> 1 dead larva makes about 2 -3 billion spores. I've always wondered if AFB can reproduce (and increase the spore count) without manifesting the clinical signs (dead larvae). I believe AFB develops in the bee gut so I'd think, if any new spores are produced, they'd be removed on the first cleansing flight. Anybody know for sure? Someone once pointed out somewhat flat/sunken cell cappings in one of my weaker hives. There wasn't the characteristic AFB smell. Decapping the cells revealed nice, healthy, white larvae. Can there be a 'partial AFB infection' without the full clinical symptoms? >>Every year a lot of spores go out of the hive with extracted honey, bee excrements etc. I've heard from a couple of older beekeepers that the soil in an apiary can be 'contaminated' with AFB spores and moving the apiary is the only way to prevent re-occurrence. But perhaps this only puts distance between the apiary and AFB hives in the area. The soil spores may not get carried into the hives. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:51:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: AHB attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>Bees will sting through conventional coveralls when wet with sweat or pressed against the skin.<<< After a couple of weeks of getting my suit "nailed" to my shoulders I got smart and "cobbed" up a set of "shoulder pads" to keep the coverals up off of "me". As far as I am concerned the "Zoot suit" look is in with AHB. I wouldn't want to try a string, Alex wearing people should wear a reversed base ball cap. Foot wear of choice among CA BK's seems to be pull on boots, often rubber but I don't know why their feet don't "melt", with pants tucked into them. Velco & little "bungles" are very useful too and easier to handle than duck tape residue buildup. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:33:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: TBH Question In-Reply-To: <20051014.055938.1942.207195@webmail21.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar and Chris > Do you happen to have any pictures of your hives and frames on the web? He didn't until a minute ago, I have posted some of Chris's photos at... http://www.dave-cushman.net/chris_tbh/christbh003.jpg http://www.dave-cushman.net/chris_tbh/christbh006.jpg http://www.dave-cushman.net/chris_tbh/christbh007.jpg http://www.dave-cushman.net/chris_tbh/christbh008.jpg http://www.dave-cushman.net/chris_tbh/christbh009.jpg -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:57:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, Dee never mentioned nor hinted at trachael mites starting out as external parasites. She has merely stated that mites have around for a long time. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:03:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: AFB spores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "I've heard from a couple of older beekeepers that the soil in an apiary ca= n be 'contaminated' with AFB spores" I have also heard this, but I think it is bogus. Someone told me, I think it was Cornell guys, that there have been repeated attempts to infect larva= e with AFB from soil extracts and no one has ever accomplished such an infection. They also told me that several years ago folks at Penn State tried to infect larvae by spreading AFB killed larvae on hive tools and the= n inoculating healthy larvae with the 'spread'. They were never able to sprea= d the disease in this manner. I also know a guy who had quite an infection of AFB before he decided to burn all the hive equipment whenever he saw infection. He reports that he was successful (and has not treated or seen AFB in more than 10 years) even though he never moved his survivor hives and put new hives in the place of those burned. FWIW -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:28:40 -0700 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: AHB attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was in Africa, I would put on a light jacket, then the beesuit. The jackets/sweaters with a hood are nice. You wear the hood with the top on underneath the bee hat. Be sure to tuck your bee suit legs into your boots, and wear thick socks. The other place you get stung is in the wrist/lower arm area, so make sure the sweater is pulled down as far as you can and hold it in place as you put the gloves on. Another thing to keep in mind is to point your vehicle in the right direction (out of there) before you start. Also AHB can get very vicious even while away from the hive. This might be the thing most different for you as a commercial American beekeeper. Once in South Africa I had some stickies out by my door, about one mile from the 40 hive apiary. It was in an area where we only got 3 inches of rain per year, and in summer so there was no food for the bees. We were in a little farming settlement with 5 houses fairly close to each other. The bees went totally crazy, and while robbing out the stickies not only stung us, but the neighbors. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:02:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan & Jan Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would not be too hard on the amateur researcher. Research many times is initiated by experienced folks that are excellent observers that see something different and try to find out what is going on. Many times these preliminary observations lead to a more formal replicated experiment. I might add that I believe a paired experiment with 20 hives is not just a whim and should be considered as a serious effort and might be worth a serious consideration. It is a shame that several beekeepers with similar interests could not get a properly designed replicated experiment designed and executed in different locations A multiple location experiment is a very strong trial. We cannot hope to rely on our bee researchers to do everything for us. I believe we can use trials in a wider location to help strengthen our local knowledge and add to the wider knowledge base. Dan Veilleux Boone area In the Mountains of NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:11:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eric Brown Subject: Re: TBH question. Comments: To: Waldemar Galka On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:34:09 GMT, waldig@netzero.com wrote: >has anyone tried lettting the bees produce their combs from scratch (no foundation) in empty Langstroth frames in standard equitment? I have to wonder why this seemingly simple answer to various goals isn't employed by more beekeepers. Foundation may help the bees, but surely that advantage would be greatly outweighed for most people by the cost and trouble of making your own foundation, for instance. And wouldn't this model answer many of the arguments for using top bar hives? Scot McPherson mentioned a few days ago that he doesn't use any foundation. I'd be interested to hear some details of how his system works for him (and on what scale it works.) The only tidbit of wisdom I can offer is that I have interspersed empty frames (mostly frames that had damaged wax that I cut out) between brood frames, and the bees have built nice combs that way. They build more drone comb than I would think they should want, but still mostly worker comb. The combs have all been straight, and after a year the frames seem about as easy to manipulate as if I had wired them. Eric -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:12:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <434F95A9.5080205@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave A study has been made, and is about to be published, by John McMullen...This study showed that for a body size shift of 10% there was only a 1% change in the diameter of the tracheal orifice. Reply: Dave, this is good, but we know that bees have been more then upsized 10% in sizing and the first thoraxic spherical opening being the site, I would like to know if this was a definate hardcore size change seen in all entrances looked at, or an Average of range scene by him. Knowing we have discussed this in depth in the past then just saying above needs more information as to how looked at. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeping Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:30:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <434F95A9.5080205@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave, Thinking more again on what you wrote also about the experiment, was it done with either fully regresssed bees back down to old sizing of your area or where the testing was done, of the turn of the 1900s and/or on bees in a natural setting found say in S. Africa, etc. or was it done on an intermetiate sizing and taken from there? as this would make a difference too. For I would think you would have to start with original sizing parameters to then enlage and see what happens. How did the changes say relate to Baudoux's measurements, and others early on, concerning body part changes, as the bees in this experiment were enlarged up? Also, one more question: As the first thoraxic spherical is not hardened yet when the trachael mites go in to eat and lay internally, and is still somewhat elastic I would think, was this too should be factored into the consideration for possible expansion, for allowing mites in. Still wanting the know the range of expansion of opening on the various enlarged sizings as 5.4mm to 5.5mm is average and I know it can go up to 5.9mm in parts of UK and EU. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http:/groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:53:26 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: TBH question. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi Dave, >>http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/catenary.html Very interesting. Curved frames may be a bit hard to make at home... >>...better hive pest removal at these critical times]. >I do not see... I am going by Dennis' observations. I have no reason to doubt them. The smaller sized cells are at the bottom of the brood nest. When the honey is stored in the upper, larger cells, the last batches of bees are produced in the smaller cells below. As I recall, Dennis noted increased, damaged mites on the bottom in the fall. Brood in smaller cells and mite drop increase may be coincidental if other factors are involved in this increased housekeeping by the bees. I don't know how but take the observation as true. The fact that the bees kill more mites is very positive. >>...more larger bees in the spring as brood rearing expands >> [may help...a larger harvest...?]. >Again, what equates larger bees with a bigger harvest ?? Again, I repeated what I saw on Dennis' site for a discussion. A larger bee should have a larger honey holding capacity. Of course, she may not take as many flights as a smaller bee. I don't that this has ever been proven or disproven. Overall, Dennis' observations concur with other phenomena. Tom Seeley has reported feral bees surviving for several years with mites in the woods of upstate New York. I've had homeowners call me to remove ferals that have continuosly been in the same locations as long as 3-4 years. (Yes, I know - what about the possibility new swarms replacing deadouts??) I have not seen DWS in the ferals that I have removed. But my untreated ferals hived in standard equipment show DWS in 1-2 years. My GUESS is 1) the natural comb, 2) the undisturbed nest arrangement, and 3) the associated cell size gradation make the difference in the bees' survival. Again, these are positive observations and guesses for the explanations. It would be nice to get some results from statistically significant studies. >>The strip or bead of wax...http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cutcombbars.html I like this method since it lets the bees determine the cell size. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:10:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: TBH question. In-Reply-To: <200510141611.j9EFvse6028209@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A number of years ago a friend if mine told me that he put old used fromes with wires into his nuc boxes, 5 frame and 4 frame, and made splits into them. The splits raised its own queen and the combs came out mostly worker brood. If you put a comb into a colony that is queen right, a comb with a mouse whole or one that you cut out yourself, the bees seem to mostly draw drone brood. Don't ask me why, ask the bees. >has anyone tried lettting the bees produce their combs from scratch (no foundation) in empty Langstroth frames in standard equitment? --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:10:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: October Cover Photo Well, the pps file is way to large (48.9 meg), so I am posting a pdf file instead (sorry no animation, but you get a rough idea, I can delete the first part about older cameras and concentration on skill but most people have point and shoot cameras...). Thanks to Aaron Morris for generating the small pdf file (mine was 188 meg!). the pdf file is at http://cyberbee.net/huangtalk/, you will need the "Acrobat Reader" to read it, which is free at www.adobe.com Off to feed my bees. Best, Zachary -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:04:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scot > Dee never mentioned nor hinted at trachael mites starting out > as external parasites. She has merely stated that mites have around > for a long time. She has not mentioned it in this recent round of discussions, but I suggest you visit the BioBee archives (wherever they now are). Dee and I have had many, many discussions about many, many aspects of bees over a six or seven year period... Among them a conjecture by Dee about Tracheal mites invading bees due to increase of size (of the bee that is). http://www.bee-l.com/biobeefiles/members/ is the only thing I can find, but perhaps I'm not looking in the right places. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:13:14 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051014161207.86838.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee > Dave, this is good, but we know that bees have been more > then upsized 10% in sizing and the first thoraxic spherical > opening being the site, I would like to know if this was a > definate hardcore size change seen in all entrances looked > at, I'm afraid you will have to wait for publication of the paper, when I know where and when it will be published. I will post to this list. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:17:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051014163055.79074.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee > Also, one more question: As the first thoraxic spherical is > not hardened yet when the trachael mites go in to eat and > lay internally, and is still somewhat elastic I would > think, You are confusing this with the stiffness of the hairs. The opening itself is rigid and part of the carapace. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 21:57:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: david flathman Subject: Re: Push in cage queen introduction failure In-Reply-To: <20051011002823.64037.qmail@web30601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed maybe they needed 24 hrs without a queen in order to accept her. Please give me suggestions of how to do better next time. Is there a good way to keep the push in cage from becoming loose when the bees eat the comb around it? Thanks for your help. Bob Maxwell __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:29:07 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: TBH question. In-Reply-To: <20051014.105344.25915.211465@webmail27.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar > Curved frames may be a bit hard to make at home... Not particularly difficult, the pieces of wood are only about 8 mm square in section, if soaked in water and bent around a former they can be nailed in position and will hold the shape when dry. > It would be nice to get some results from statistically > significant studies. Yes that would be good, but I have been hammering away at a number of researchers and a number of research institutions, but they all seem to be unprepared to even consider more or new research. >>>The strip or bead of wax... > http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cutcombbars.html > > I like this method since it lets the bees determine the cell size. At first sight, you might think so, but I think that the cell size that a bee was raised in has an influence on the cell size that it will draw when it does not have a template. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:30:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Amateur Replicatable Experiment Trials In-Reply-To: <011d01c5d0d8$c06fe880$9224d044@ownerzq0yukl00> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dan & Jan wrote: > I would not be too hard on the amateur researcher. Research many times is initiated by experienced folks that are excellent observers that see something different and try to find out what is going on. Most of us amateurs are pretty well ignorant about how to set up trials that can be replicated. Would any of you pros out there be able to give us a guideline about how to set up experiments that could be replicated? I know that the requirement change as the goals of the experiment differ, but a general outline of how to go about it would help us amateurs who desire to persue this line of investigation so that what we observe could be replicated would help. Mike Located in lower part of Alabama __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:32:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <43501267.6080206@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dave: You are confusing this with the stiffness of the hairs. The opening itself is rigid and part of the carapace. Reply: But Dave, I wasn't specifying either the actual spherical or the hairs, just saying it is still somewhat elastic and mites can therefor push things around to get in. But this is very good you are pointing this out. And like I said earlier this is all sounding very good to me what you have written here letting us know about this research coming out. I just want to ask questions of you, since you seem in the loop to see how wide things were looked at in consideration of the results you mentioned. You know we have talked deeply in the past of size ratio with honeybees and this 10% to 1% size change in the opening sure means a whole lot to me in view of our past talks over the years. We used to talk about the 2% size difference in the size of the honeybee per each degree of latitude variation if I remember correctly, which you correlated to a change in a person to be about the size/width of a person's wrist. So having you inform us here of a 10% size variation of the bee to a 1% size variation of the first thoraxic spherical, I think to myself. Well the size of a honeybee changing upwards then much more then 10% and maybe even to 40%-50% or more, in mass nowadays, with the larger enlarged foundations on today's market, now making their entry into broodnests as todays beekeepers just do it not thinking, I am saying to self, even a 20% or 30% enlargement would mean a big size enlargement in the first thoraxic spherical of 1% to 3% then and if there is a range and not a hardcore 1% change then there is much larger going on. And A honeybee then compared to a small trachael mite, most beekeepers need a lenses to see and not just eyes, means even naturally a big size difference between the honeybees and trachael mites, and now with enlargement, WOW.....for the smaller trachael mite can now get into the spherical pushing the hairs aside until hardened. But it would be nice to know if the project was done with fully regressed honeybees or naturally occurring ones, similar in size to 1904 when first seen. Also, it would be nice to know,bear with me, if factored in to the project is the selection going on by our honeybees here on the bigger sizes for the past 100 years of artificial enlargement, due to the selection pressure, due to the problem, for needing a smaller thoraxic spherical to live and not die in then. Just so much what you wrote here makes me think. Yes, shall be interesting to see the final paper and see what aspects where looked at, as whether from one isolated angle of reasoning, or a whole-bee concept relative to the environment. As Nature comes at you from all points. Yes, 10% to 1% ratio is good I think... Anymore just in case you want to talk more???? Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:11:52 -0400 Reply-To: info@miteaway.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "NOD Apiary Products Ltd." Subject: Re: Amateur Replicatable Experiment Trials In-Reply-To: <20051014213007.47447.qmail@web53415.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Mike Stoops wrote: Would any of you pros out there be able to give us a guideline about how to set up experiments that could be replicated? Great question! There are a lot of different ways beekeepers/researchers ran trials so there has been an attempt to standardize test methods. It can be found at this link: http://www.apis.admin.ch/host/doc/pdfvarroa/Guidelines.pdf This methodology is what was used in the development and registration of Mite-AwayII. regards, David v. NOD Apiary Products __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:51:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <43501267.6080206@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rip Bechmann wrote: >Can you provide any evidence to prove that being smaller makes them (AHB) any >more "harmonious" with nature? Rip, 'Outperforming' would indicate they are more harmonious. Here's an example of this. In the study: "Diet selection and foraging distances of African and European-African hybrid honey bee colonies in Costa Rica" S.S. Schneider1, and H.G. Hall http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2FE52BFB They establish here in 'table one' the cell sizes for large European, and small cell sizes for the African test colonies. Colony Cell Size mtDNA analysis 1 4.65 African African 2 5.05 European European 3 4.55 African African 4 5.00 European European 5 4.75 African African 6 5.15 European African 7 4.70 African European 8 4.90 European European 9 4.75 African African You can see for yourself that the European group is of larger cell size than the African group, which is small cell sized. They state that: "African and hybrid colonies did not differ significantly in population size, the areas of comb devoted to brood rearing and food storage, flight activity, pollen foraging activity, or the distances traveled to pollen and nectar sources. These nonsignificant differences suggest that the foraging behavior of the two colony types may have been more influenced by environmental factors than by genetically determined dietary or movement preferences." So in the above they are saying the colonies are equal in most aspects from the start, and throughout the study. They are stating here that any differences in foraging behavior of the two colony types would be more influenced by environmental factors (this would include cell size which is an environmental factor) rather than being of different mellifera races. >...I asked if you had any proof of any >plants that "big" Apis mellifera can't work that "small" Apis mellifera >can, can you provide examples... Rip, There is evidence in this study that the smaller bees are able to forage more efficiently than the larger. And here's some 'specific examples'. The study states: "The two colony types did not differ significantly in population size, brood rearing or food storage activity, or in any of the aspects of foraging examined." Let's get this strait up front,,, Throughout the study, the groups did not differ in storage and brood rearing, and they gathered equal amounts of stores. So,,,,, Any differences in foraging behavior would certainly reflect a competitive advantage or disadvantage of one group, if one were to analyze them. The study states: "AHB colonies consistently traveled slightly shorter distances to food sources throughout the study (Fig. 5). The daily mean total foraging distance for the African colonies (1073 ± 52 m) was about 300 m less than the 1387 ± 260 m estimated for the hybrid colonies." If the mean total foraging distance of the AHB was 300 m less than the European group. This can only indicate that the small celled AHB were much more efficient foragers than the large European group and they did not need to forage further distances. Again, the study states that they did gather the same amount of stores, but the European group had to forage further to achieve this, "this is less efficient!!" The study states: "...on average hybrid workers traveled about 600 m more per round trip of foraging." With the average bee collecting nectar normally making 7 to 13 trips per day, this would mean EACH large cell forager, again "EACH LARGE CELL FORAGER" would have to fly up to 10200 more meters to get the same amount of nectar!!!! A large cell foraging force of 5,000 bees would have to fly 3000000 more meters than the small AHB to achieve the same amount of nectar and pollen!!!! The study states: "...the hybrid foragers traveled about 600 m more per round trip, yet both colony types had similar levels of flight activity and food storage. If all other aspects of foraging (i.e., load sizes, flight speed, energetic costs) were equal between the two colony types, then hybrid colonies must have expended more energy to maintain similar levels of food collection, and thus may have been slightly less efficient at foraging." The above is obvious, the larger European bees were less efficient, this of course would give the AHB an evolutionary advantage over the large Europeans. Those with the evolutionary advantage always dominate the genetics in a particular area, and the less efficient genetics fall away! Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 20:08:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051013.180300.-318953.1.beerip@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Rip Bechmann wrote: > Can you cite any reference showing that the > difference in tongue lenght > between "big" Apis mellifera and little Apis > mellifera? In this link, you can see for yourself that the "little Apis mellifera", A.m.Caucasica, has the longest proboscis compared to the "big" Apis melliferas. http://www.beeworks.com/morphometry/ Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:56:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: TBH question. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The splits raised its own queen and the combs came > out mostly worker brood. If you put a comb into a colony that is > queen right, a comb with a mouse whole or one that you cut out > yourself, the bees seem to mostly draw drone brood. Don't ask me why, > ask the bees. Small clusters tend to draw worker comb. Strong colonies tend to draw drone comb. Of course the matter is not entirely that simple, and other factors such as position in the hive, time of year, resources available, etc. may have an influence as well, especially in cases which fall in between. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:59:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: She Blinded me with Science ( And failed me in biology ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would not be too hard on the amateur researcher. > Research many times is initiated by experienced folks > that are excellent observers that see something > different and try to find out what is going on. > > Most of us amateurs are pretty well ignorant about how > to set up trials that can be replicated. Doing scientific trials is a bit of a lofty goal for most of us. It takes hard work, scientific training, more than a little understanding of statistics, plus an idea of how to handle the exceptions that may crop up. Most of us get distracted or things go awry and don't quite finish up as planned, if ever (and that includes the scientific pros, too!) If you don't have a job doing research, a grant, or a paper to write -- or even if you do -- the project tends to become less attractive and more work than expected at the beginning, and nagging, possibly fatal flaws become apparent immediately after you are fully commited.. But don't worry: the scientific method isn't the only one way of establishing truth. Many events, processes, and apparent facts -- ones we encounter every day -- can be hard to test scientifically, however -- fortunately for us and for our ancestors in the pre-science eras (and animals) -- we can understand these things well enough for practical purposes just by employing some observation and thought. Moreover, even if our explanations and understandings are wrong, but we know the pattern, things will still transpire in a familiar way. Most personal, government, military, and corporate activities are not run by science, but rather by (hopefully) good judgement, observation, and instinct. Simple observation can go a long way toward identifying trends and probabilities, usually well enough for everyday use, and also suggest areas that aren't as obvious and which might benefit from some science. As for science, the unfortunate fact is that much of what passes for science is not science, or is at best, poor science., and, moreover, even good work, unless replicated and/or supported by other studies and put into practice, is of limited usefulness. Although good science, if available, is obviously a good platform for basing decisons, there seems to be a strong tendancy in laypeople to cite studies in contexts that do not take into consideration the limitations of the work, and also a tendancy to speculate from the results of a single study -- or even opinion articles -- to create hypotheses that can be extremely flimsy. The fact that something happens and that there is some science available on one or two points under consideration, does not prove that our theories are correct -- or even close. An good example, IMO, is the current small cell discussion. Obviously there is something happening. What we see in the Lusby operation obviously works for their purposes, but can it work in theory? :) Frankly, the theories offered don't convince me... and -- go figure -- people on one side or another of the debate criticise the few that have come to light so far. No me. IMO, any study that anyone does -- well or poorly -- sheds a little more light on the topic, and we can learn by reading them. I am inclined to take each for what it is worth, and add that to my own personal observations. And (going back to horses for courses) without taking anything away from the small cell crowd, whom I respect, I really have to wonder to hear a man who has sucessfully made his living keeping many breeds of bees in many locations, who has read widely and who shares his knowledge freely, chastised for not agreeing with the theories and methods of those who have to subsidize their beekeeping. I don't know of any self-sufficient small cell operations. (I bet I will soon, tho', if there are any. ). We all benefit from an exchange of ideas, especially when evangelism and cheer leading are left out of the mix. I suppose we all have our biases, but I'd like to know what is really happening, and if anyone can run small cell on a commercial basis and make anything like the crops and pollination that we old-time large scale beekeepers require to meet our commitments. Then I'd like to know what is really going on in 'regression' (formerly 'retrogression'). If we take out the magick, are we just selecting for a specific strain of bee? What are the mating preferences relating to size? We know that there is less inter-mixing between distantly related populations in adjacent yards than previously thought, and that it can be slanted one-way. allen The trouble with facts is that there are so many of them. -- Samuel McChord Crothers, The Gentle Reader -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:32:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051014223207.32568.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee As I said in my previous post, it is not my information or my study... It would be wrong for me to make comments or answer your questions. It will come out in due course. I see the implications of a non linear size relationship in tracheal spiracles as counter productive in bees that have been enlarged due to overlarge foundation. As the spiracle is only of similar size it will pass less atmospheric air, thus the flying ability of an enlarged bee is even more seriously affected than I indicate in the discussion on... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/aerodynamic.html > Anymore just in case you want to talk more???? I am always ready to talk about any aspect bees... You and I do not agree on some points, but there are plenty that we do agree on, disagreement does not stop us having stimulating discussions. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 04:58:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto > It sure seemed more about turf than about tests. I would disagree - I think it was made clear that it was all about statistical significance. Here's what was said about the science aspects of the apparent "pre-publication" of partial data from a larger study: "It should be stressed that the total results from the test so far appears to have a rather different conclusion than Johnsen's. It is important for the Norwegian Beekeepers Association to point out that the test is not finished, that the results in the mentioned articles is taken out of a larger context..." > It seems the article only described the workings > of the authors bees. Well, if one is participating in an organized research effort, it is generally assumed that one will follow a specific protocol, contribute one's data, and let all the data be analyzed before making any possibly rash statements about what is seen in a mere subset of the data. It is a shame that the actual paper may be blocked from being published in a peer-reviewed journal due to this "pre-publication" of partial data by one "loose cannon" among the large number of people who participated in the effort. Peer-reviewed science journals most often flatly refuse to publish research that has been already reported on by the popular (layman's) press or another journal before being published in their journal. The net result may be to take hard work by many people resulting in good hard data, and make it all seem "questionable" or "unpublishable" simply due to this error in judgment by one participant. That's a shame when the goal seems to have been to do a large-scale study and have the results be accepted as "Science" with a capital "S". So, it is not about "freedom of speech", its not about "turf", its not about "ego", and its certainly not about what any one participant THINKS he might be able to conclude from his hives alone. It is about doing science, working as a member of a team, and refraining from grandstanding to get one's 15 minutes of fame. This is expected in any multi-researcher effort. Violate these basic rules, and no one will ever want work with you again in this lifetime. That didn't happen. Two magazines got conned, and so did an entire national beekeeping group. That's sad. jim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 07:53:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: AHB attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>"bungles"<<< Sorry but I think I "bungled" the spelling of "bungies", i.e. "bun-gees" as in "bun-gee cords". I was trying to refer to the little 6 or 8 inch ones used on back packs, etc. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 08:03:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Can you cite any reference showing that the difference in tongue lenght >> between "big" Apis mellifera and little Apis mellifera? > > In this link, you can see for yourself that the "little Apis mellifera", > A.m.Caucasica, has the longest proboscis compared to the "big" Apis > melliferas. > > http://www.beeworks.com/morphometry/ True, and an interesting article it is, too. Nonetheless, I think the question was meant to mean "big" Apis mellifera and little Apis mellifera _with the same genes_, not bees two very different sets of genetics and morphology. The matter under consideration is whether bees tongues stay the same (or get longer?) when a given strain of bees are downsized -- whether by malnutrition, being raised in smaller cells or even some form of magick. allen What a blessing it would be if we could open and shut our ears as easily as we open and shut our eyes! -- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:05:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lanfeust Subject: cell size and bee morphometry In-Reply-To: <434F95A9.5080205@lineone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Can you cite any reference showing that the difference in tongue lenght > > between "big" Apis mellifera and little Apis mellifera? With regard to cells size influence on bee morphometry, I grab into some old studies cited in Traité de Biologie de l'abeille (Chauvin, 1968), just to remember what were the findings of that time (time of large cells "believers"): - the now well known Belgian Beaudoux (late 20's) was reporting tongues 5/10 mm longer for each decrease of 50 cells/dm2 and thorax large of 3.7mm with 850 ¢/dm2 foundations, 3.9mm with 800 ¢/dm2 foundations, 4.1mm with 750 ¢/dm2 foundations, 4.3 with 700 ¢/dm2 foundations - The American Grout (1937) was less enthousiast but also reported a correlation between cells size and bees morphometry. He reported a maximum increase of the tongue of 2.1% (vs 11.9 to 25% reported by Beaudoux) - The Italian Giavarni (1943) also reported a correlation between cells size and bees size, but concluded it was not significant. - The Russian Babaiev (1949) was looking for big tongues bees for clover crop. He reported "natural" cells size of 5.4 mm (mean value) for Ukrainian bees and 5.56 in Bachkiry. The correlation between cells size and bee weight was : 5.960mm - 145 mg 5.750mm - 139 mg 5.555mm - 134 mg 5.375mm - 129 mg 5.210mm - 124 mg 5.060mm - 119 mg 4.925mm - 115 mg 4.805mm - 111 mg - A couple of other Russian (Glushkov and Ignatowitch) were also claiming for larger bees in larger cells being better in the 50's and 60's - In Armenia, with 6mm cells size, Kotogyan and Martirosan (1958) were reporing 1.1mm longer tongues - In Romania, (Mirza and Malaiu, 1961) reported a direct correlation between cells size and bees size but they also reported a large variability in natural cells size from one region to another. - Abdellatif (1965) confirmed the strong correlation between cells size and bees size comparing new combs use with lod dark combs used by 70 generations of bees. The author of the monography concludes that almost all authors of the time agreed on a strong correlation between cells size and bees size (including bees tongue's size) attributed to the quantity of food beeing larger in larger cells. Just a light of past on this current matter. Hervé, Qc, Canada -- Hervé www.emelys.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 15:26:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? Correction In-Reply-To: <4350BE86.2040102@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I wrote... > As the spiracle is only of similar size it will pass less atmospheric > air, thus the flying ability of an enlarged bee is even more seriously > affected This should have been As the spiracle is only of similar size it will pass less atmospheric air than is required by the larger muscles of the larger bee, thus the flying ability of an enlarged bee is even more seriously affected... Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:14:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 'Outperforming' would indicate they are more > harmonious. Here's an example of this. Aren't we talking about an invasive species here? I think we need to define "harmonious". allen A fact is a simple statement that everyone believes. It is innocent, unless found guilty. A hypothesis is a novel suggestion that no one wants to believe. It is guilty, until found effective. -- Edward Teller -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:59:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A study has been made, and is about to be published, by John McMullen... > This study showed that for a body size shift of 10% there was only a 1% > change in the diameter of the tracheal orifice. When we talk "body size shift", are we talking a change in mass, volume, or linear dimension? I ask because diameter is linear and, generally an increase in volume with linear proportions remaining in a constant ratio, would imply an increase in each of the three spatial dimensions by the cube root of 10, which is approx. 2.15. 2.15 is not far enough from 1 (which could be anywhere from about 0.5 to 1.5) for me to be able to get much out of this. If we are talking about a dimensional increase of 10% in all dimensions, though, then that is a volume increase of 33% and that would be interesting! Anyhow all this gets confusing if the meaning of terms is not clearly defined. allen When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong. -- Arthur C. Clarke, Clarke's first law -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:06:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto In-Reply-To: <000401c5d166$a78a3850$03fca8c0@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer and All Readers Here: Well, it seems that James gets around with his posts, but I have decided to post here another reply to another inquiry I made of Hans-Otto here for all to read. Then since Malcolm (Apis) reads here, and beesource readers read here, where Mr Fisher is currently running hot with talk, they can take the information too for further disclosure, rather then me running around. ---------------------------------------- When talking to Hans-Otto Johnsen about the discussion here he gave the following information which he allowed me to post. >Author Topic: Disputed Report on "Small Cell Test" In Norway (Beeculture 09/05)http://www.beesource.com/cgibin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00000 >191>Jim Fischer >Field Bee > >I sure hope that Hans-Otto Johnsen's >"pre-publication" of the results will not prevent >publication of the actual results ... Mr Johnsens publication was not a pre-publication. In the Norwegian Bee Journal 'Birokteren' 2-2005 an artcile was published by Stine Helland and Liv Seather giving a first report for the years 2002-2004 of their test. Their results given do not differ concerning one of the test beekeepers from what Johnsen gives. Johnsen does not give any figures from the season of 2005. The difference with the Johnsen report is that he gives more information from the same period from his experiences. Stine Helland and Liv Seather say about the results from test host Hans-Otto Johnsen (quote from the Norwegian Bee Journal): '..less mites in the small cell group through out the year than in the big cell group. The results were statistically significant. Also we got a statisticly significant difference in mites on bees in November. Also here it was less mites in the small cell group. This beekeeper also had a higher honey yield in the small cell group than in the big cell group.' Also it should be stressed that the article of Johnsen was not in first place about small cell size, but about his beekeeping outfit and how he survives as a commercial beekeeper with 600 colonies. Here small cell size is a vital part. The figures given are given to explain his choice in using small cell size. I thank Hans-Otto for the preceeding information. Sincerely, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:12:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Its not so much the length of the proboscus that makes the difference but the diameter of the head. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:12:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >That didn't happen. Two magazines got conned, >and so did an entire national beekeeping group. If as he said his group peers were informed and able to review the material before printing, and unless he signed a non-disclosure or other binding agreement, he is perfectly within his rights to submit his own material for publication. If his results differ from the larger group, then I also think it is important from a larger perspective to have the individual results. Exceptions are often important and not necessarily random or spurious, and knowing the exceptions gives us all the chance to review all data. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:43:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When talking to Hans-Otto Johnsen about the discussion here he gave the > following information which he allowed me to post. Is there a reason that Hans-Otto cannot or will not post his own comments on BEE-L? It seems that this discussion involves him, and that he is reading the posts and also responding to them. Subscribing (and unsubscribing, for that matter) to and from BEE-L is a simple process, and I should think that he, and the list members, would benefit from direct dialogue. allen Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence. -- Robert Frost -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:47:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Its not so much the length of the proboscus that makes the difference > but the diameter of the head. Good point, and one I have wondered about. In the smaller members of a normal commercial North American hive -- whether the small size is a result of genes, malnutrition, or of being raised in a small cell -- I have not observed a noticably smaller head or thorax. Is it documented anywhere that bees that are smaller than others of the same genetic make-up have smaller heads? allen Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws. -- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:54:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <010001c5d1a1$6ef05070$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen > When we talk "body size shift", are we talking a change in mass, volume, or > linear dimension? AFAIK Linear Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:31:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone posted that it was important to have one individual's results even if the experiment had not concluded. What if the results had been the opposite of what was found (small cell did not work!). Jim would still decry what happened, but there would have been much different responses from the small cell group. They would agree with Jim. Let us wait for all the participants. I am with Jim. Purly from an ethical position, it was wrong, as well as from a scientific point of view. To have results from one one participant in a multiparticipant experiment not only means nothing but says a lot about the participant and a possible agenda. Any good experiment will have the results from all participants, so it does no good to pre-publish only one participants findings. It only damages the experiment and makes it suspect. Especially since it appears the publisher was a small cell beekeeper. Most bad science and scientific experiments start with the conclusion and then the experiment follows to validate the conclusion, especially if you are in a particular camp. If there are problems, they are disregarded in order to arrive at the "right" results. Remember Cold Fusion? Sounded good until it was tried by others who could not replicate the findings. The article is suspect as well as the results until all are heard from. There were some who were interested in how to conduct a scientific experiment. This is an object lesson on what not to do. I recall another fad of long ago where many beekeepers were enlisted to test the fad and when the results did not meet the proponents conclusions, the experimenters were castigated. It does get nasty when you go against the keepers of dogma. Fortunately, good science is more interested in the results rather than dogma. But dogma can leave a lot of martyrs in its wake. My only observation is that the defenders of small cell, with one exception (Dennis), are doing more harm to the practice than they should. It might be an exceptional and valuable addition to beekeeping, but I am careful around zealots. Bill Truesdell (Yes, I have tried it, but obviously did not do it correctly since it eventually (after 4 years) failed. All who fail do not do it correctly. Like Bob and Allen. Must be our age.) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 15:05:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Allen Dick Subject: New Acronym waldig@netzero.com wrote: > ...I continued to see mites and DWS bees into November. and, later, > ...I have not seen DWS in the ferals that I have removed. But my untreated ferals hived in standard equipment show DWS in 1-2 years. Not knowing what was meant, I searched BEE-L and found find "DWS" only in three posts, and all from the same writer, with no explanation. I Googled for "DVS and bee" and came up empty. I then made a leap, Googled "DWV and bee" and got tonnes. Is DWS something like DWV, or something different? Does eveybody but me know what is meant? allen Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers. -- Alfred Lord Tennyson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:20:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All, > zealots > Resorting to name calling does no good especially when the name used refers to nearly all on the list, including the author. Everyone is a fervent proponent of something. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:44:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: New Acronym MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, > DWS, Does eveybody but me > know what is meant? > DWS (Deformed Wing Syndrome), I think, But probably more commonly known as DMV (Deformed Wing Virus). . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:00:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <00f501c5d19b$211afcc0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- allen dick wrote: > > 'Outperforming' would indicate they are more > > harmonious. Here's an example of this. > > Aren't we talking about an invasive species here? > > I think we need to define "harmonious". Invasive species or not, if AHB are more in tune with the floral sources, they will win by outperforming the competition. I want nothing to do with encouraging harmonious coexistence between colonies in my yard. They are in direct competition with each other, poor performers loose, and the best win. Colonies in harmony with the floral source win, and the colonies less in tune with sources loose. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:16:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: New Acronym In-Reply-To: <200510151905.j9FJ36iQ025617@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen Dick wrote:"waldig@netzero.com wrote: > ...I continued to see mites and DWS bees into November. and, later," . Allen wrote: "Is DWS something like DWV, or something different? Does eveybody but me know what is meant?" You're not alone. I thought maybe it meant Dumb, witless and stupid or Drones with stingers, maybe. Or maybe it's a new pest. Oh, I better not say that. --- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:23:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Dee never mentioned nor hinted at trachael mites starting out as external > parasites. She has merely stated that mites have around for a long time. Maybe not recently, but I'm fairly sure that I have some material around somewhere where she did, or know where to find it. Maybe Dee will comment. (I like to get my news from the horse's mouth). allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 16:30:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: TBH Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a number of Quiby hives with frames that predate foundation. The top bar of the frames, with the exception of the "lugs" are shaped like an inverted pyramid on a pedestal. Sort of like this: _________ I I I I . / Guess who just discovered this . / keyboard has no back slash? . / . / . / . Generally bees attach to the lowest point on a top bar, if they have a wide flat area the mid line can wander as they join some number of "starts", each at a slightly different place or slight angle on the same top bar. Starter strips and wax beads help but can also be incorporated in nearby comb. If a frame is not perfectly level they use the lower edge. I have found that starter strips cut from unwired foundation often "break" and the comb drops. The easiest way that I have found is to nail the wedge sideways against the other half, which gives a narrow, straight edge. If you have groved top bar, a thin strip of scrap wood wider than the depth of the grouve can be inserted and either nailed or glued in place. Some of the better off among us, university types, etc., have been known to purchase "scads" of dowels to do the same thing. I think square dowels would work better than round but I'll leave that to Aaron to decide when he reports his results. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:44:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Invasive species or not, if AHB are more in tune with the floral sources, > they will win by outperforming the competition. Perhaps that means something and people will explain it to me, but, to me, that appears to be a very general, sweeping, and faily meaningless statement. I would suspect that different locales have different flora, and that some would favour one sort of bee and some another. Also, "outperforming" means meeting different criteria in differing applications and regions. Also, I think that "being in tune" is not a huge factor in "outperforming the competition, if it ranks at all." I think that, as Janice suggested, getting up earlier and working harder (and mating competitively) are bigger by far. allen Nature is trying very hard to make us succeed, but nature does not depend on us. We are not the only experiment. -- R. Buckminster Fuller, Interview, April 30, 1978 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:42:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gary Wheaton Subject: Bee Vac and Blower I'll try it again. Pictures are in reverse order. The screened box was made first, then the Vac box, the screened box can fit over or under a standard 10 frame box. The vac is a 1.5hp shop vac. clearence is approx 3/4" on the sides and back with approx 1/8" in front (just big enough to fit a hive tool in to close the "door", the bottom slides all the way out, I then use duct tape to seal the gap. The Blower is a leaf blower and is rated at 200mph at the tip with 400cfm, the bushing can be gotten at a plumbing store or a hardware store. When using the blower I tend to blow from the bottom up at about 15 Degree angle then from the top down, at the same angle, blowing the bees up and away (really disorients them) with 50 supers in my honey room after using this I only wound up with about 50 bees flying around. [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower010.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower009.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower008.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower007.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower006.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower005.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower004.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower003.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower002.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower001.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower011.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower012.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/SilverFox53/BeeVacumandBlower.jpg [/IMG] Hope you like the pictures. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 23:04:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robin Dartington Subject: Re: TBH Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Rip Bechmann" The top bar of the frames, with the exception of the "lugs" are shaped like > an inverted pyramid on a pedestal.' To simplify carpentry, why are TBH top bars not simply square timber, rotated 45 degrees to make a corner hang down, trimmed half thru at the ends to sit flat on the hive sides? Robin Dartington -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:33:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Amateur Replicatable Experiment Trials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would any of you pros out there be able to give us a guideline about how to set up experiments that could be replicated? We have in the UK and Ireland been trying to get some valid amateur research under way. It started last Christmas with the question 'If Santa were to bring you as a present the answer to a bee question, what would it be?' and so the Santa Group was born. Dave Cushman (who has credit for the idea) will shortly give the details on how to access the archives. I think it is fair to say that, so far, the subject has been long on rhetoric and short on experiment. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:43:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TBH Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you happen to have any pictures of your hives and frames on the web? He didn't until a minute ago, I have posted some of Chris's photos at... http://www.dave-cushman.net/chris_tbh/christbh003.jpg http://www.dave-cushman.net/chris_tbh/christbh006.jpg http://www.dave-cushman.net/chris_tbh/christbh007.jpg http://www.dave-cushman.net/chris_tbh/christbh008.jpg http://www.dave-cushman.net/chris_tbh/christbh009.jpg The coin to be seen in pictures 006, 007 and 008 is a UK penny and has a diameter of 20mm. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 01:53:04 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Maurice Organization: prive Subject: Re: cell size and bee morphometry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please Read BAUDOUX and not Beaudoux Greetings Maurice (Belgium) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lanfeust" To: Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 4:05 PM Subject: [BEE-L] cell size and bee morphometry >> > Can you cite any reference showing that the difference in tongue lenght > - the now well known Belgian Beaudoux (late 20's) was reporting tongues -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:05:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051015200032.62460.qmail@web34309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Waggle wrote: >--- allen dick wrote: > > > >>>'Outperforming' would indicate they are more >>>harmonious. Here's an example of this. >>> >>> >>Aren't we talking about an invasive species here? >> >>I think we need to define "harmonious". >> >> > > >Invasive species or not, if AHB are more in tune with >the floral sources, they will win by outperforming the >competition. > > Joe, how are you defining performance? Honey gathered? Swarms thrown? Drones produced? Amount of pollen stored away? From the bees perspective as an organism, I would think reproductive success would outweigh givein a beekeper a huge crop. What is your measure? Keith > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:06:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <016001c5d1c6$5b2d1c60$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: Yep, let's see, head, wing, neck, back, mites all seen early on. Vagans were the ones names at the base of the wings by the first thoraxic spherical, right next to that important opening. Many pictures taken, even videos by scientists of trachael mites going from bee to bee at this point called trachael mites............Wonder what happened to the Vagans? Yum, sure looks like good food inside!! and Vagans awas back in 1917 and could, may, might even be earlier depending upon how one reads the archives. Is bigger better? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:37:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto In-Reply-To: <011701c5d1a7$8399de50$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen writes: Is there a reason that Hans-Otto cannot or will not post his own comments on BEE-L? It seems that this discussion involves him, and that he is reading the posts and also responding to them. Reply: Allen, Hans-Otto does not own, nor use a computer. To reach him I have either always phoned directly, or had Erik Osterlund deliver the emails to him by phone and then send his replies back. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 20:54:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto Hello Everyone, There are even fervent proponents against zealotry :>)) Bill, I'm interested in your small cell experience. Could you elaborate? Maybe on a new thread. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:41:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Amateur Replicatable Experiment Trials In-Reply-To: <1eb.457f861e.3082ebb5@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sure. Preliminarily, give up any hope of getting wealthy from your research ideas. First, get some hard-nosed training in statistics and the "real" sciences, such as math, physics, or chemistry. Second, somehow, insulate yourself from outside and/or vested interests by walling yourself off (financially) in an independently funded or gov't. organization. Third, divest yourself of any financial links to industry. Fourth, sit down and REALLY THINK about the problem -(repeat as necessary through the experiments). Fifth, most important, make sure you never adopt an affection for any of your theories, by adopting the method of the Multiple Working Hypotheses, and paying special attention to the null hypothesis, which holds that there will be no change in the system because of your experimental treatments. Sixth, always, always have control groups randomly mixed in with your tests. Seventh, or first, if you are clever, talk to a real statistician before the tests start (hopefully before you spend money setting up a flawed experiment). Eighth, expect that your character and bias will be questioned. Any research which starts out to prove a pet hypothesis has already prostituted itself, and is only anecdotal. - John F. Edwards formerly with USDA-ARS Bee Lab, Tucson, Arizona (33 years) now semi-retired (4 years) in the lovely, wet Pacific NW. CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: >Would any of you pros out there be able to give us a >guideline about how to set up experiments that could >be replicated? >We have in the UK and Ireland been trying to get some valid amateur research >under way. > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:36:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <010001c5d1a1$6ef05070$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave and Allen: This study showed that for a body size shift of 10% there was only a 1% change in the diameter of the tracheal orifice. Reply: Dave you say the measurements were linear which I perceive then across the back of the thorax, wing side to wing side, to match the inside diameter of the cell born in. Please correct me if I am wrong here. Then which direction was the orifice linear measured across the opening, since it would seem either side to side, or top to bottom, etc would be expanded? Also may I ask on what named bee this was done upon? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 08:44:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: TBH Question In-Reply-To: <000e01c5d1d9$31a9d7d0$af86bc3e@DellDesk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Robin > To simplify carpentry, why are TBH top bars not simply square timber, > rotated 45 degrees to make a corner hang down, trimmed half thru at the > ends to sit flat on the hive sides? The carpentry may be simpler, but the work involved in cleaning up brace comb increases and has to be repeated every time you enter the hive. A conventional bee hive frame requires 43 'cuts' or machine operations to manufacture it's parts, if any simpler way was effective, it would have won through by now. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 05:29:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Sleeping (Comfortably) with the Enemy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've heard from a couple of older beekeepers that the soil in an apiary > can be 'contaminated' with AFB spores and moving the apiary is the only > way to prevent re-occurrence... Maybe some locations are more prone to AFB than others due to specific nearby vegetation, or lack thereof, or other factors we don't know. I've seen minor AFB clear up spontaneously when hives were moved to a nurse yard, but not treated with drugs -- or any other method. Personally, I'm not too worried about low levels of AFB spores, and when people express a desire to eliminate even minor sources of AFB spores at great cost, rather than express confidence in a program of reasonable reduction of major contamination and selection for bees that can deal with AFB, I tend to suspect that the problem is really either idealism and black and white thinking -- or simply bad stock. Given good management, AFB should not be too big a problem, and extreme measures should not be appropriate -- IMO. In dealing with AFB, I feel that there are two basic approaches: 1.) Zero tolerance (ZT) of AFB and 2.) Intelligent management (IM) -- AFB monitoring, management and damage control The choice of one or the other approach depends on a number of factors, any one of which may trump all the others in a specific instance: - Jurisdiction (state, country, province, etc.) and regulations - Beekeeper psychology and relationships with neighbours - Beekeeper expertise, or lack thereof - Disease history of hives and previous AFB history - Size and type of operation - Products produced (pollen for feed or human consumption?) - Bee strain(s) available and chosen for the operation - Other factors Zero Tolerance: Many beekeepers, sometimes out of fear, ignorance, or idealism, try to track down and stamp out any imaginable source of AFB totally and absolutely. IMO, in many, if not most cases, this is needless and futile. The cost of such attempts -- many intensive and invasive inspections, drugs, irradiation, hygienic bees, burning, boiling, melting, etc. -- far outweighs the cost of the disease itself, and in many cases is doomed to failure, unless AFB resistant stock is also used. In some cases ZT is the only legal method, but in other situations, intelligent management can minimize risk, loss and anxiety, and also maximize returns to the beekeeper. Intelligent Management: Many beekeepers use much of the same arsenal -- periodic inspections, drugs, irradiation, hygienic bees, burning, melting, etc. -- but keep an eye on the cost/benefit ratio and are aware that, if AFB is well under control, and they can minimize their inputs, effort, risk and costs, while maximizing convenience and profit, they are ahead in many ways. While not something to be desired, an occasional breakdown is no cause for great concern, and can be managed. To my mind, the key, in all cases, is the bee stock used. If an hygienic stock (See http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/hygienic.htm) is purchased, or if HYG is a major selection criterion in local breeding, over time, the problem of AFB should fade away, unless there is some overwhelming pressure from AFB locally. Even with HYG bees, however, due to the nature of bee genetics and practical factors, there are always bound to be a few rogue, susceptible queens in any population, so occasional breakdowns will occur. Even though occasional failures are almost a certainty, if susceptibilty is rooted out constantly by immediate requeening from known good HYG lines when AFB is found, and other measures are used to reduce and surpress (not necessarily eliminate absolutely) contamination from frames with scale, AFB should retreat far into the background and be no threat. YMMV allen Those who agree with us may not be right, but we admire their astuteness. -- Cullen Hightower -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 07:51:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Amateur Replicatable Experiment Trials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FWIW, IMHO the truth of the matter is that anyone can do research; but bear in mind that from the very start the research that you plan to do will most likely require acceptance by the professional academic and scientific communities associated with the research. If you desire to go about with a project just for yourself then the research project is just for yourself and yourself alone. If you desire to develop and perform a research project requiring peer approval then matters become a bit more involved; you must show what you did and how you did it. If you desire to plan, develop, instrument, and carry out a unique project to its designed conclusions predicated upon previously completed and published knowledge you must prepare your project carefully and in accordance with accepted standards which have been developed as a fundamental manner of establishing ideas based upon fact. Research is a process through which new knowledge is discovered. This can be as simple or as complicated as you wish and your project can be as simple or as complicated as you may wish. Research is based upon the work of others; it can be replicated; it is generalizable to other settings; it is based on some logical rationale and is tied to theory; it is doable; it generates new questions or is cyclical in nature; it is incremental; and, it is an apolitical activity that should be undertaken for the betterment of society (Salkind, 1997). If you have an idea or you wish to know what no one else knows and you truly want to do research to find out; then, find someone in your own community with experience in doing research to help you. This person does not have to be an academic or scientific guru. The process of doing research is universal, a beekeeper in a monastery or clerk in a patent office can publish a paper based upon scientific fact or theory. That same beekeeper or a team of hundreds of scientists can work together on a research project. And you can go to your mailbox and bring into your home a Buckfast queen illuminated with a light bulb that is powered by a nuclear reactor all because of the same universal method of carrying out research. I suggest that if possible enlist the aid of your state university extension apiculturist; if he or she has no time for you then tell him that you plan to find someone else, and then do so. Perhaps a local agriculture extension agent may be able to help give you guidance on your project, most of these folks carry a masters degree that required either a masters project or a completed thesis based upon research. You may also want to visit the local college or university and enlist the help of one of the professors in the department of your interest; but bear in mind that most likely you will really be helped by one of his or her graduate students…but that’s ok. If your project is really timely and of benefit to society grants are available to folks just like you and I ; you just have to go through the process of getting a grant. Getting a grant is not that hard but you have to have manuscript preparation skills and some credibility established within your business community, be it local or national and your research most likely will require publication. Where to start? If you have an idea, you have already started. Now you only have to go down the path that so many others have taken. Doing research is like writing a book, first you have to know how to read and write. Then you can start at “The Beginning”; and, at your own leisure make it to the end. After you have finished your book, others can pick it up. Some will merely read it, still others will improve upon it and write their own books (kind of like BEE-L), and society will be better off because of you and your “book”. Respectively submitted, Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, North Carolina 27320 USA Salkind, Neil J., (1997) “Exploring Research”, Prentice Hall, New Jersey p. 3 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:24:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Amateur Replicatable Experiment Trials/Santa group In-Reply-To: <1eb.457f861e.3082ebb5@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris & all > We have in the UK and Ireland been trying to get some valid amateur > research under way. It started last Christmas with the question > 'If Santa were to bring you as a present the answer to a bee > question, what would it be?' and so the Santa Group was born. > Dave Cushman (who has credit for the idea) will > shortly give the details on how to access the archives. The idea was Chris's originally, but I will take the blame :-) Seriously though, a lot of discussion has taken place and although the chatter has subsided, the principle remains. There is no one place that contains a complete archive of the proceedings, but if you look at... http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/irishbeekeeping/message/12579 and then follow the thread you will see one part of the conversation. http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/santa_group/ will show you the archive of all of the associated discussions that took place separately from the main list. There has been no messages since June 2005, but I expect some revival of interest now that winter is almost upon us. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 09:16:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: TBH question. In-Reply-To: <20051014181052.31753.qmail@web32107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5B8428E > he put old used fromes with wires into his nuc boxes, and the combs > came out mostly worker brood. Possibly a function of nucs...as they need worker comb, and not drone. Buster told me the same thing, Mark. Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 10/9/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:11:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waggle and others reply regarding my question; >Can you provide any evidence to prove that being smaller makes them (AHB) any more "harmonious" with nature?< Where have you shown that just because a bee flies further it is "less efficient"? The opposite could just as easily be true, based on your assumption. Have you shown any data to show that the big bee is using "more" energy? "Researching citations", to prove a point, by the index can be risky. You are getting into "resource partitioning", "speciation" and other "deep" subjects. >From another angle, Apis are what I would call "selective generalists", they only work certain plants and only under certain conditions. (There is always something cropping up to disprove an assumption. This year I saw bees refuse, for the first time in 35 years, to work Loosestrife. I have always heard that Loosestrife never fails, but it did this year, locally at least. What was going on, I don't have a clue, but I "suspect" it was the really excessive ongoing heat and humidity. Nectar/honey/sugar is hygroscopic and I think it may have diluted the nectar below the threshold for Apis.) Seeley's research would be a good place to start reading, rather than scanning the index of one of his books. If we consider your flight distance data in that light, perhaps "small" bees were forced to work the less rewarding material because it was "energetically" not viable to go beyond that zone. This is all conjecture on my part, lacking as I do any personal data, but is only one of several scenarios I can envision that "might" fit the data you cite. Regarding the size issue further, you might want to check out the research of Roubik. Make sure you follow his results to date, as he continues to research the effect of AHB on Meliponid species in CA, he has revised some of the conclusions he drew as his data base increased over the course of his ongoing research. All that aside, I for one, welcome the presentation of data rather than just "because it makes sense" rhetoric. I can't recall the song title of the song or performer, etc. but one line in it has always stuck in my head, it goes "'... cause never was the reason for leaving for the tropic of Sir Galahad...". It don't hold a candle to Allen's quotes, but it has said something to me for years. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:04:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: : Re: Apis Newsletter Article Concerning Small Cell Usage & Hans-Otto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell writes; >>>Most bad science and scientific experiments start with the conclusion and then the experiment follows to validate the conclusion... problems ... are disregarded ... to arrive at the "right" results. Remember Cold Fusion? .... could not replicate the findings. ...defenders of small cell ... harm(ing) ... practice .... It might be a ... valuable addition to beekeeping, ... <<< Right on bro, Rip One of the advanages of getting Bee-l in digest form is someone else has often already often made your point for you and you can avoid being a "me too"er. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:21:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: Swarm of Drones It has been known that Apis cerana (Asian hive bee) drones will congregate on an orchid (originally from China but widely planted in Japan). I believe I have seen pictures of only drones on the flowers, although some has workers also. Apparently the flower produce chemicals similar to queen pheromones and attract drones (who try to mate with the flowers and in the process pollinate the plant). so my hypothesis is that there are some queen pheromone left on the branch (since a swarm landed before), and this place is close to a drone congregation area. so drones got attracted to the pheromone (they apparently only become attracted while flying in congregation areas -- e.g. they ignore the pheromone while in hive). Zach http://www.beetography.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:35:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: October Cover Photo In-Reply-To: <200510122335.j9CNQWYx025350@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-E817256 > a digital SLR (single lens reflex), >specifically D70 Zach...does this Nikon body accept lenses from my Nikon N90S? Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 10/9/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:15:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) Dan said: >I would not be too hard on the amateur researcher. A good point but the Norway researcher is not presented as amateur work by the publications. The work is amateur despite those on the list which would argue differently. Over the weekend I talked to a couple people which do published research and both said the research was flawed and should not have been published without a clear explanation for the results not being accurate and the whole test needed ran again! It would have been OK to say for example: These were our results with our testing of these two groups with chalkbrood problems. Instead the testers said. "both groups had chalkbrood problems but one group seemed to handle the chalkbrood better than the other. Both researchers I approached said if the chalkbrood problem had been in testing in a US bee lab the research would have been stopped and a new test set up. Chalkbrood can be a serious problem for the beekeeper! hives do not thrive with chalkbrood problems. The simple solution would be to run the test using another race of bee which is free of chalkbrood problems. Poor beekeeping practice has tainted many beekeeping research projects done by researchers! To *recreate* the Norway experiment exactly I would need to set the experiment up with bees with chalkbrood problems. Yes or no? When the researchers were asked about the discussed "patch work" post capping time research which they were familiar with they said to ask Joe & Dee how they would have done the testing? The test involved a huge amount of time and only a small section could be evaluated. A whole hive could not be involved. To be valid and accepted by other researchers research has to be done correctly. SMR and PMIB research being done in Baton rouge involves sections of brood comb exactly like the so called by small cell people the *patchwork* test. A member of the National Honey Board (Clint Walker) told us at the KHPA meeting this weekend that the research the board paid for( against many beekeepers opinion the tests were a waste of precious research dollars!) to test FGMO showed the FGMO did not provide any varroa control. I know the results will upset Dr. Pedro and others but it is what it is. The results should be published soon we were told! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 16:40:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051016053631.69667.qmail@web51612.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee > the measurements were linear which I perceive > then across the back of the thorax, There is no point in making guesses, when the paper is published you can pick it to pieces any which way you can. The first paper was published in Apidologie (Vol 36 No 1, 97-105) The second paper which includes similar work on small cell bees is yet to be published. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 09:02:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <43519967.2050307@sc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Benson wrote: > Joe, how are you defining performance? > What is your measure? > My measure is based on the optimal forage. Optimal forage in honeybees dictate that all foraging decisions are decided terms of their costs and benefits to the colony (this has been shown in research by Seeley in 1991, and maybe also Visscher and Camazine) Honeybees colonies always maximizes efficiency expression in foraging decisions based on net coralic gain, and colony fitness (performance) is positively correlated with foraging efficiency. Seeley has shown that when a colony was faced with different sources of nectar, it consistently focused on the source with the highest profitability -profitability is defined as a function of nectar sweetness, accessibility, abundance and distance from the hive. In the study: "Diet selection and foraging distances of African and European-African hybrid honey bee colonies in Costa Rica" http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2FE52BFB The small cell AHB colonies were found to be more efficient foragers consistently traveling shorter distances for food and yet showing the similar weight gains throughout the study. The daily mean total foraging distance for the African colonies (1073 ± 52 m) was about 300 m less than the 1387 ± 260 m estimated for the hybrid colonies. That the European group had to forage further shows that they had to work harder for the same rewards, and therefore less efficient in performance. "...the hybrid foragers traveled about 600 m more per round trip, yet both colony types had similar levels of flight activity and food storage. If all other aspects of foraging (i.e., load sizes, flight speed, energetic costs) were equal between the two colony types, then hybrid colonies must have expended more energy to maintain similar levels of food collection, and thus may have been slightly less efficient at foraging." So an accurate measure of performance can be derived from looking at the mean total foraging distance between the two groups. Performance and efficiency would be directly correlated with the distance traveled by each group necessary to obtain the same reward. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 09:18:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051016.111446.-290845.13.beerip@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Rip Bechmann wrote: > Waggle and others reply regarding my question; > Where have you shown that just because a bee flies > further it is "less > efficient"? Bechmann, In honeybees make all foraging decisions in terms of their costs and benefits, Seeley has shown this. All things being equal, a colony that must forage further to obtain the same reward would be less efficient than one that does not because it would need to expend more time and energy to obtain the same reward. Time saved also means more foraging trips per day which increases the productivity of the colony. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:25:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <002a01c5d264$68c17a80$2dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob > Both researchers I approached said if the chalkbrood problem had been > in testing in a US bee lab the research would have been stopped and a > new test set up. > > Chalkbrood can be a serious problem for the beekeeper! hives do not > thrive with chalkbrood problems. The simple solution would be to run > the test using another race of bee which is free of chalkbrood problems. By changing course, because chalk brood is encountered is sidestepping the problem. If chalk brood is a fact of life in the race being experimented on, surely the test should go ahead. This gives the researcher the opportunity to bring in other races if desired to run parallel experiments and make comparisons. Just changing race is ducking the issue. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:10:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <002a01c5d264$68c17a80$2dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison: A whole hive could not be involved. Reply: So a whole hive cannot be used, but patchwork done in nuc like sizes can? Interesting. And yet Nature involves a whole spectrum, comes at you from all sides at once, but you cannot do research with a whole-bee concept or whole hive set up you say. And the labs to do research, then have to eliminate all other factors that might cause their thoghts to go wrong, like other beneficials in co-host relationships, and interacting secondary diseases, or do they just not recognize them being there? Interesting you saying this patchwork thing is the norm.Sounds like sound bite research and not addressing a whole-bee related problem us beekeepers have. So how do you solve a whole hive problem that is being hit from all sides, parasites, beetles, stress, secondary diseases (many times more then one at once), artificial setups, all various treatments, if you cannot work the problem as a whole, as everything is interrelated and have to work by patchwork testing? From what you say then, the scientists cannot, so I guess it must be left to beekeepers for the long haul then to see what lives and what dies, bottom line while working the field management out. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeping Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:38:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <43527EFA.30900@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dave Cushman wrote: > By changing course, because chalk brood is > encountered is sidestepping > the problem. If chalk brood is a fact of life in the > race being > experimented on, surely the test should go ahead.... I'm with Dave! This is excellent 'real world' research that Hans has done that most beekeepers fighting varroa can relate to. Varroa infestations will often be accompanied by secondary disease. To perform this test in the sterile environment proposed by some of the scientists would not accurately simulate the effects of varroa on a colony under common everyday conditions. Those wanting to understand the factual evidence provided in the study should be cautious not be distracted by the sidestepping Johnny Cochran type tactics. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:41:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <43527EFA.30900@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave: By changing course, because chalk brood is encountered is sidestepping the problem. If chalk brood is a fact of life in the race being experimented on, surely the test should go ahead. Reply: Exactly. If you cannot address the problem like it occurs in the field, you cannot correct it in the field later. You have to look at the whole picture to correct many things in life, not sound bites or little patchworks that have no bearing on the whole real world of life. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:18:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051016160243.3567.qmail@web34301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:02 AM 10/16/05 -0700, you wrote: > >That the European group had to forage further shows that they had to >work harder for the same rewards, and therefore less efficient in >performance. So they had to work harder for the same rewards. Wouldn't this make them MORE efficient? At the risk of anthropomorphizing here, one could say they CHOSE to forage further. And perhaps was not they're reasoning (??) that flying further to forage where there was less competition was worth the extra effort? Would they have faired as well foraging closer and competing more? And if they HAD foraged closer, would the AHB have faired as well with the increased competition or would THEY then have decided "Hey, it's a little further to that field over there but a lot less bees to compete with!" Would you then consider the AHB less efficient because THEY had to work harder for the same rewards? And hey wait a minute! If the AHB foraged more efficiently (less travel, less competition) why didn't they produce MORE? George- --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:39:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: October Cover Photo Mike, I suspect so, especially if it is autofocusing. My 60 mm macro was bought 6 years ago before D70 came out and it works fine. there should be a chart somewhere on nikon.com which you can check lens compatibility. Zach On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:35:19 -0400, Michael Palmer wrote: >Zach...does this Nikon body accept lenses from my Nikon N90S? >Mike -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:24:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20051016141832.008528f0@pop.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- George Fergusson wrote: > So they had to work harder for the same rewards. > Wouldn't this make them > MORE efficient? Hi George, No, more energy spent in gaining the reward would be 'less efficient'. Example of 'working harder for the same rewards' would be a car spending more energy on the highway at 30 miles per gallon would be less efficient than a car getting 28 MPG. Remember that a colony of honeybees, when faced with different sources of nectar, will consistently focus on the source with the highest profitability -profitability is defined as a function of nectar sweetness, accessibility, abundance and distance from the hive. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:44:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20051016141832.008528f0@pop.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- George Fergusson wrote: > And hey wait a minute! If the AHB foraged more > efficiently (less travel, > less competition) why didn't they produce MORE? > Hi George, I can appreciate that it's always fun to try and pick apart a study. I provided a few excerpts, but it is always helpful if one were to read the study. "....throughout the study the colonies with African mtDNA consistently had slightly greater brood production, almost twice as much pollen collection activity, and traveled approximately 600 m less per round trip of foraging" One efficiency expression with the AHB is its reproductive output in rearing more brood than the European group (i.e. fitness). Reproductive output is positively correlated with foraging efficiency. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 12:48:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Succeeding With Small Cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob & All, > Chalkbrood can be a serious problem for the beekeeper! hives do not thrive > with chalkbrood problems. The simple solution would be to run the test using > another race of bee which is free of chalkbrood problems. > Chalkbrood happens and can happen in any race. In the test in question not all colonies had chalkbrood but one thing was constant and that was the race of bee used. I think it was said that the test will be run again with another race. The one thing different in that test was cell sizes which is the factor in question to performance. With these two factors (cell size and race) being constant results were concluded. I see nothing wrong here because this is what beekeepers do when keeping bees, they get end results after the season ends. This is the results I want to see. > When the researchers were asked about the discussed "patch work" post > capping time research which they were familiar with they said to ask Joe & > Dee how they would have done the testing? > The test involved a huge amount of time and only a small section could be > evaluated. A whole hive could not be involved. > Yea, to many unknown factors and most researchers can not deal with unknown factors. Even if a researcher could control all the unknown factors there still are factors that they could not or were not aware of. This is life, get real. The only way to test cell size to the health of "A" colony is to test whole colonies. Mite drops give absolutely no answers to what the whole colony is doing with the mites. Survival is paramount and all else is secondary and will fall in place after survival. This is the results the bees need and if the bees get this result the beekeeper can do their job. Researchers who think they will get answers to honey bee survival in one season with patch work or piece meal tests are not living in the real world and living a fantasy. What if it is the unknown factors that are enabling the bees to survive and this piece meal testing is taking away the factors that enable survival? Researchers will never know the answer to this unless they can figure out a ! way to look at the whole colony and all the functions of it at a single time. Who in the real world really cares how they survive but if they do. You know the one universal factor in these wild feral survivors is the range in cell sizes but of course no researcher has studied this recently mostly only laymen and who will pay attention to a layman but a layman. It is apparent to me that science and researchers will never be able to look at clearly the cell size and race factor that is why I am using these two factors in my own beekeeping to see for myself. So far the better. Why should I wait for science to catch up with creation when all science seems to want to do is tear it apart piece by piece or by piece meal testing. Disclaimer; I do not care if a person chooses to use small cell or not, it's a free country. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 18:08:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT J. Waggle wrote: >The small cell AHB colonies were found to be more >efficient foragers consistently traveling shorter >distances for food and yet showing the similar weight >gains throughout the study. > So is that a function of the fact that they are different strains, or cell size, or both? Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:29:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <002a01c5d264$68c17a80$2dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > A member of the National Honey Board (Clint Walker) told us at the KHPA > meeting this weekend that the research the board paid for( against many > beekeepers opinion the tests were a waste of precious research dollars!) to > test FGMO showed the FGMO did not provide any varroa control. > > I know the results will upset Dr. Pedro and others but it is what it is. > > The results should be published soon we were told! Anyone who has been on this list for a long time remembers the FGMO wars. There are a lot of similarities between it and small cell. FGMO was the cause of the list shifting to a moderated list. It also was a driving force to set up other beekeeping lists that supported FGMO and other "alternative" methods of beekeeping. There were "scientific" studies done by proponents of FGMO, but when studies were done by independent scientists, they could not be duplicated. (Ari was the researcher who first burst the FGMO bubble and still posts on the BeeList. I value his posts.) The response to the independent research was derision of scientists and researchers and a call that beekeepers were the true researchers since FGMO worked. We lost a lot of researchers from this list because they just gave up in the face of unrelenting attacks. Most who are old timers on the list are commercial and hobby beekeepers who share a desire to improve beekeeping, but value good research and dislike anecdotal evidence. We have seen too many "proved" techniques come and go. Plus, I personally have seen many beekeepers follow the pipers and leave beekeeping. A factor that causes me difficulty with small cell beekeeping is the lack of its being picked up and promoted by the people I respect in the beekeeping industry. I appreciate Bob's posts because he has the failures included in his trials. He is not wedded to any specific beekeeping practice other than the one that will allow his bees to survive and prosper with minimal interference, the same thing promoted by small cell adherents. He tried small cells. He has gone on to other methods. John Edwards and Chuck Norton have excellent posts on the problem of pure research. Most of what we beekeepers do are trials, not research. When I was in graduate school I conducted research and my research was published in two scientific journals (my Master's thesis). Nothing I have ever done as a beekeeper could be called research. Only Dennis has come close in the small cell world. Dee points out that we need to look at the whole picture, but what we are looking at is the end result, a beekeeping practice that is successful. So is Bob's. So is mine. So are a lot of people's, but that says little about causative factors that led us there. Joe W's bees are more in harmony with nature and more productive as a result of being on small cell. Obviously, some of my hives are more in harmony with nature than others since my hives are not uniform but are variable. Truth is, the least productive of my hives is on small (5.0) cell and has been so for years (even after re queening). But it is also plastic foundation, so is that the real problem? Again, you cannot look at the end product and pick one thing as the reason for it, if you do not control all the variables. Which is why Bob's friend would throw out the Norwegian study because of chalk brood. It is a variable that can (and does) influence the outcome. One reason researchers like to keep their experiments small is to keep variables at a minimum and be able to manage the experiment. I have four colonies. All are the same race of bee, but every one is distinctly different. The variables between each colony are also major with cell size, foundation, age of equipment, possible disease, contaminants, nectar sources, etc.. So can I pick out one thing to show why I have been successful for so many years? I cannot. There is a whole book of things that help me with my bees. So even thought there is much to commend small cell beekeeping, the verdict is still out. No big deal. If you want to try it, go for it. But I have no problem continuing successfully without it. Bill Truesdell, zealot emeritus Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:15:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <9267f97a8c.97a8c9267f@southeast.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Benson wrote: > So is that a function of the fact that they are > different strains, or > cell size, or both? They seem lessen the possibility that it is due to them being different strains by saying: "African and hybrid colonies did not differ significantly in population size, the areas of comb devoted to brood rearing and food storage, flight activity, pollen foraging activity, or the distances traveled to pollen and nectar sources. These nonsignificant differences suggest that the foraging behavior of the two colony types may have been more influenced by environmental factors than by genetically determined dietary or movement preferences." Environmental factors I agree could include many things, but there seems to be high probability that cell size / bee size may play a major role here. The European test group is a 'AHB' hybrid, so they do have some genetics of the AHB, and yet the AHB foraging behavior did not seem to carry over into the European group, further indicating that genetics may not have much influence here. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 20:29:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051016202456.32981.qmail@web34310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:24 PM 10/16/05 -0700, you wrote: > >Example of 'working harder for the same rewards' would >be a car spending more energy on the highway at 30 >miles per gallon would be less efficient than a car >getting 28 MPG. > I think you have that backwards unless you're really suggesting that a 28 mpg car be considered more efficient than a 30 mpg car simply because it isn't going as far down the road. My pickup truck gets 15 mpg and I've tanked up just once this summer whereas my Subaru Impreza gets 30 mpg and I've filled it up a dozen times... but I wouldn't go so far as to say my Ford F-150 is more efficient! >Remember that a colony of honeybees, when faced with >different sources of nectar, will consistently focus >on the source with the highest profitability >-profitability is defined as a function of nectar >sweetness, accessibility, abundance and distance from >the hive. And I would add competition for that source to the equation which could very well alter the choice the bees make. If every bee in the neighborhood is after that sweet, accessible and abundant source, it's not going to remain profitable very long. That might make a somewhat more distant but perhaps not so sweet or abundant source look a lot more attractive. George- --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:42:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <4352E254.8040800@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill states: Truth is, the least productive of my hives is on small (5.0)cell and has been so for years (even after re queening). But it is also plastic foundation, so is that the real problem? Reply: Okay, this I can understand then. 5.0mm or Dadant 900 was the first trial on small cell size, but was taken off the market due to lobbying (we were a large part) that with the contract we had with the Tucson Lab it just wasn't right. We have stated this before, and also that while our bees lived on the 5.0mm they had much secondary disease, they lived with the mites,but we barely made a living....... Then with much todo, and politics hot and heavy Arizona was deregulated which gave us the option to not treat if we wanted to, but also to continue our journey back to a clean sustainable beekeeping system. Which we have done in our field management by not using all various dopes/treatments. Then since it was said prove it was the small cell and nothing else, we were challenged. So changing NOTHING ELSE in our field management, we shook every hive we had down to the 4.9mm top tolerance sizing and started handmilling our whole outfit over. We went from close to 1,000 colonies down to about 104 in the end bitting the bullet. It did prove something though, for we were told 90% of the bees in the country wouldn't make a regression like that shaking down, and boy we sure proved that. But the only thing we changed in our field management was the cell size to 4.9mm foundation top tolerance milled on 4.9mm embossing rollers and with hot wax so in actuality it is in the middle 4.85 to upper 4.88 to 4.9 range. But we got rid of the secondary diseases. Then the climb back started, for by shaking down all hives, we then were forced to retool and redraw out all foundation, for we saved not even the honey supers, so there would be no doubt the only thing changed was the cell size. Well, it has been hard, for it is said you either make bees or you make honey, and having to drawout all new combs both for the broodnest and honey supers sure is hard.Then try to stay in beekeeping on top of it. Well, to end. Only thing changed was the comb size and all the combs our bees are on. We are back now to 900 +/- colonies again and foundations are about done being drawn hopefully. This coming year if we can get them made the honey supers go on even more. Soon we stop making hives and go fully to back to production in our desert region. But we used no dopes/treatments and just changed the combs. Don't know if that is an experiment or not. But we have held pat, stayed the course, and soon the truth will be out, as more and more come on following us. This year coming is year 10, a decade done on our second regression (saying regression now because I cannot live with the word retrogresson we were told we had to use instead before). And to prove a point thrown at us, Show/prove to us it is the foundation sizing that is wrong,we are now almost home now in more ways then one. Respectfullyl submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:25:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I would suspect that different locales have different flora, and that some would favour one sort of bee and some another. Allen, This why acclimation is important. Competition is the root and core of all life forms. Harmonious life is certainly an ideal, but it is harmonious competition. Bees may not wage war, but they DO constantly do their best to ensure the survival and proliferation of their lines. Its called the game of life and it is a game played by all lifeforms that exist. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:25:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith, The performance joe speaks of is survival, and proliferation. Performance based on what WE consider performance is just a catagorical factoring of this. Ex. Honey production, queen laying all just functions of survival of the line. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:13:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >There were "scientific" studies done by proponents of FGMO, but when studies were done by independent scientists, they could not be duplicated. The published S.A.R.E grant FGMO study done in Missouri was a complete failure of FGMO. The varroa load grew during the treatment period and all FGMO treated hives died of varroa load as did the controls. > but value good research and dislike anecdotal evidence. We have seen too many "proved" techniques come and go. Exactly! On Bee-L discussion there are not winners or losers. Both sides present their sides to the discussion and in time the subject fades away. > I appreciate Bob's posts because he has the failures included in his trials. I have no agenda. I only search for truth. On bee lists I use kid gloves. In person I am harder to deal with in a beekeeping discussion. Those on the lists which have sat in presentations with me will agree I am sure. I have put a red face on many a researcher when discussing beekeeping issues. > Most of what we beekeepers do are trials, not research. For sure! The Norway was more of a trial than true research. The post capping time research is beyond the range of most beekeepers. A direct look into what's going on in those cells. Counting the PMIB (percentage of varroa in brood cells) and looking into each cell to see how many varroa have reproduced is complicated research. My friend Dr. Harbo has shown me the method to do both tests but so time consuming I doubt the average beekeeper would ever attempt the testing. I am not the average beekeeper. .>Only Dennis has come close in the small cell world. I also value Dennis M. observations. Dennis is not afraid ( as I am not) to say "hey wait a minute I did exactly as you said but I got different results!" Most of us do not understand why when we question any aspect of small cell the small cell'rs go ballistic. >Dee points out that we need to look at the whole picture, but what we are looking at is the end result, a beekeeping practice that is successful. Exactly! Beekeeping research is complicated. The small cell group has given reasons for the success which do not hold up under close examination. Does not mean something is not going on in the small cell hives it simply means if ever looked at closely by researchers a completely different reason for the success might be found! >Joe W's bees are more in harmony with nature and more productive as a result of being on small cell. Amazing what a couple mm can do for the hives well being right Joe? > Which is why Bob's friend would throw out the Norwegian study because ofchalk brood. It is a variable that can (and does) influence the outcome. Exactly! It is typical of the small cell group to hold up and wave the paper as concrete proof of the value of Small cell. I went quickly back ten years in ABJ and BC looking for a study on any type of beekeeping research which said both groups were plagued by chalkbrood. I could not find a single study. In fact I do not ever remember reading a study published about a brood issue when plagued by a brood disease. Most researchers would not put there name on a study like the Norway study. They would wait and then redo with another queen line not plagued by chalkbrood. Possibly why the Norway other beekeepers are upset. they realize the study is flawed. >One reason researchers like to keep their experiments small is to keep variables at a minimum and be able to manage the experiment. Exactly! When doing cell observations. You do not need but only a section of comb to do a post capping study, SMR or PMIB study. Period! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:56:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, to end. Only thing changed was the comb size and all the combs our > bees are on. Some say that the genetics of your bee stock has changed during that decade, with that selection pressure, and with bees migrating through the region. In a few words, what are your thoughts on that? > Don't know if that is an experiment or not. But we have held pat, stayed > the course, That is the truth. > and soon the truth will be out, as more and more come on following us. And that will tell the tale. The proof is in the pudding, and before long, we should be able to see production results in your own outfit, and in other tests in other regions. Your bees sure looked healthy and thriving to me -- and not overly mean, so now we will see if they can make honey and pollinate common crops, especially those that pay well. If they can compete with commercial strains in production, pollination situations and other important ways, you may have hit a home run. allen First there is a time when we believe everything, then for a little while we believe with discrimination, then we believe nothing whatever, and then we believe everything again - and, moreover, give reasons why we believe. -- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:35:41 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "....throughout the study the colonies with African > mtDNA consistently had slightly greater brood > production, almost twice as much pollen collection > activity, and traveled approximately 600 m less per > round trip of foraging" Did they produce more honey? The above figures are good if you are trapping pollen or selling brood but at the end of the day the beekeeper gets paid for honey. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:57:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051016204423.82696.qmail@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:44 PM 10/16/05 -0700, you wrote: >I can appreciate that it's always fun to try and pick >apart a study. I provided a few excerpts, but it is >always helpful if one were to read the study. > I'm not intending to pick apart the study, I'm just questioning your understanding of what you cited. I wasn't sure I got it. I wanted to make sure I understood what you were saying. >"....throughout the study the colonies with African >mtDNA consistently had slightly greater brood >production, almost twice as much pollen collection >activity, and traveled approximately 600 m less per >round trip of foraging" Boy if they could just calm the girls down some and tone down that swarming/absconding tendancy, they'd be great :) >One efficiency expression with the AHB is its >reproductive output in rearing more brood than the >European group (i.e. fitness). Reproductive output is >positively correlated with foraging efficiency. > I'm particularly interested in foraging efficiency because in my area, good forage is hard to come by and competition for it is HIGH. I believe competition is a big factor affecting the foraging choices my bees and the other bees in my area make. I know there are other bees foraging in my apiary's front yard and I suspect my bees are foraging further away from home than they would if they had less competition. It is for these reasons that I don't see foraging efficiency in quite the same light as you appear to. If my bees go further and work harder for their share of the spoils the locale has to offer than other bees do, I think that's a good thing, considering the alternative- foraging closer to home and coming up short. The ability to successfully compete for a scarce resource is an important factor for survival. George- --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 04:10:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20051016202929.0086fe90@pop.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- George Fergusson wrote: > > And I would add competition for that source to the > equation which could > very well alter the choice the bees make.... This would be a 'forced choice' more related to efficiency and competition. The more efficient fopragers are displacing the others. Compete competitors cannot coexist. If two non-interbreeding populations possess exactly the same ecological requirements, and live in the same place, one will have slight advantage and, over time, will replace the other completely according to the competition theory. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:06:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: TBH Question In-Reply-To: <000e01c5d1d9$31a9d7d0$af86bc3e@DellDesk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Robin Dartington wrote: > To simplify carpentry, why are TBH top bars not > simply square timber, > rotated 45 degrees to make a corner hang down, > trimmed half thru at the ends > to sit flat on the hive sides? Would the bees tend to propolize the angles where the side corners of the bars meet? Would those spaces provide hiding places for the SMB? Just querries. Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:29:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Amateur Replicatable Experiment Trials In-Reply-To: <4351DA06.4030200@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Saturday, John Edwards laid out 8 guidelines for research. In particular, I appreciated the advice that you prepare to be accused of bias no matter what your results. Most of the rules of good research derive from this premise. You should design your experiment and document everything thoroughly with the goal that others will analyze your procedure and be able to duplicate your results. This very openness is what defends your research from the accusations of bias. It helps you make sure that you are really seeing what the data says, not what you wanted to see. Now, with a bit of tongue-in-cheek, I have to argue that John oversteps in recommendations 2 and 3 (excerpted below). He may be displaying his own bias as a career government employee when he argues that financial independence is a necessary precursor for repeatable research. "Independent" researchers are neither more nor less subject to bias, pride-of-authorship and experimental error. No one's research, whether funded by the government, by industry or through some "independent" group, should be taken at face value. It should always be evaluated on its merits. Mike Rossander > Second, somehow, insulate yourself from outside and/or vested interests by walling yourself off (financially) in an independently funded or gov't. organization. > Third, divest yourself of any financial links to industry. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:52:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Flawed research In-Reply-To: <002a01c5d264$68c17a80$2dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: > Over the weekend I talked to a couple people which do published research and both said the research was flawed and should not have been published without a clear explanation for the results not being accurate and the whole test needed ran again! This involved a test which was flawed because the test results were affected by a second variable - chalkbrood. I think I was taught that to run a test you need to set up the experiment so that there is only one 'controled' variable involved in the test. Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:03:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Over the weekend I talked to a couple people which do published research > and both said the research was flawed and should not have been published > without a clear explanation for the results not being accurate and the > whole test needed ran again! Something Bob did not say, and something which we all should keep in mind, is that *all* research is flawed in some way, and *all* tests need to be run again ...and again. Even then, we are still usually (always?) missing something. Maybe in light of this fact, the criticism does not seem quite as harsh, or discriminatory. allen I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy. -- Richard Feynman -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:17:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: foraging efficiency MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, > foraging closer to home and coming up short. > The ability to successfully compete for a scarce resource is an important > factor for survival. > When a non-beekeeper asks me "How far will bees fly to forage?" I tell them, "Only as far as they have to." If they have to forage a far distance from the hive they are then only maintaining. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:41:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: My small cell experience In-Reply-To: <200510160054.j9G0s5rd005851@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D. Murrell wrote: > Bill, I'm interested in your small cell experience. Could you elaborate? > Maybe on a new thread. Based on Dee's comments my small cells were not small enough. Way back when Varroa was first found in the US, Bee Culture published my letter to the editor. I said we were breeding for Varroa with large bees since AHB emerged quicker than EHB and did not have a Varroa problem. My supposition was that the smaller bee was the cause of the quicker emergence. A Swedish researcher proved me wrong, but I was still intrigued by small bees. I knew the US beekeeping industry bred for a larger bee, so, obviously I could breed for a smaller one. When the 5.0 foundation first came on the market, I shifted some of my bees to it. As you who have been around for a while know, I was the editor of our State newsletter, so did a lot of trials of different, new things. I even tried menthol candy for Tracheal mites. (The person who posted that swore by it as it being 100% effective and cheap. I liked the cheap part.) I would only try something new on a colony or two, so at least I would have some survivors and continue keeping bees. The rest got treated better. The 5.0, as opposed to Dee's experience, was a resounding success. When Tony Jadczak inspected my bees he said I should patent them since they were so healthy. But I did not rely on cell size alone. I grew my own queens. I treated with Apistan. I used grease patties. I followed George Imire and Tony Jadczak's beekeeping practices. So there was no way that I could ascribe everything to small cell. (An aside. If you are able learn the details of some of the "successes" with Varroa you will often find a step that counters the entire experiment and is the real reason for the success. Usually it is the application of a proved miticide at some time in the "experiment" to achieve some result like mite drop. Or the addition of the proved miticide as an adjunct to the method. Or something else, like an open bottom when treating. It is interesting to look at these "studies" when details are submitted. Sort of like trying to "find Waldo". Unfortunately, most do not give many details.) I did have one colony that was marginal. It survived every winter but gave no surplus every year (my strength of colony measurement), so I decided to let it die off by not treating it and left it alone for the winter. It survived with no treatment. I had been helping a new beekeeper, who was failing miserably every year in a very poor location. So I gave him the colony. We ended up calling it the "Hive that would not die", since out of all his colonies, it always came through. At least for as long as that queen and a few descendants were around. Eventually, it also succumbed. I grew my own queens during this time, another variable, and one of the most important. So I ascribed the survival of that colony to the queen, not cell size. The same for my general success with my bees. I loved to tell my fellow beekeepers if you want to be a good beekeeper have the best bees. The best bees come from a good queen. If you listen to most, not all, of the small cell beekeepers, they follow my path. Shift, and if successful in that, grow your own. After a few years, you will have a successful bee in your area. But then I was diagnosed with cancer. Plus, my hip went out and my bees were left alone for two years. It did not matter if they were on 5.0 or larger comb. It did not matter if they were on plastic or natural foundation. They all went downhill quickly. Tony Jadczak was kind enough to rescue me by requeening all my colonies and by then I had started to look at my bees and care for them as I should, mostly because all my operations were over and I had no more detectable cancer (you are never "cancer free", it is just that it is not detectable). Again, thanks to many on this list for your prayers. So I had small cell (albeit not small enough), plastic, home grown bees, large cell, new world carniolan, and on and on, but my bees faltered because of my neglect. They did not make it on their own. Granted, they did better than most would, but they would have all been dead within another year. So there was only one major factor in the health of my bees, and it is one that I continually harp on in this list and that is the beekeeper. George Imire's addiction to caps when he says BEEHAVER is justified. The beekeeper makes the difference. Once I was involved with my bees, even with my bad hip and now a bum knee, my bees are again healthy, producing very well (too well for me since I keep them for pollination of my trees, not for honey), and survive winter better than most (except Tony Jadczak) in Maine. However, the one on 5.0 is the least productive, just like my hive that would not die. But I ascribe that to the queen and not the 5.0. I bought some 4.9 to give it a try. And I am going to experiment with mediums for a colony. But they will not be definitive studies, but only for me to see what differences they might make. If you look at small cell success, I find the beekeeper is a major factor, as is the bee. It takes time to get there and while you are moving in that direction, you are selecting for a better bee. You discard failures and promote success so the bee gets better adapted for your area. If I visited Dee's operation I would be impressed. I would be impressed with Bob's, also. Both are doing the same thing, working for a better bee that can handle Varroa. The difference is in the path. And, for whatever reason, Bob has more science on his side. Finally. What I have seen in nature mirrors my experience with my bees. Nature, in Maine, is not a beekeeper. The bees are left to fend for themselves, just as I let them over those two years. If 4.9 is natural and does all that it is purported to do, we should have feral bees all around us, but we no longer do. Squash growers are asking for pollination services since the beekeepers in their areas lost their bees and gave up. Fellow apple growers are complaining about poor harvests while my trees are loaded with apples (as are all the apple trees in my neighborhood, thanks to my bees). There are few feral bees. But that should not be so, if 4.9 is natural and works. In fact, we should not have a feral Varroa problem if 4.9 is natural. (Dennis shows it is not but that there is a range of sizes.) If we find feral survivors and they are on 4.9, is it the bee or the cell size? Something is going on, but we still do not know what. So I await the definitive study. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:42:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dave, >>...I think that the cell size that a bee was raised in has an influence on the cell size that it will draw when it does not have a template. That's what I have been told, too, but I am not convinced just yet ;-). I believe Dennis Murrell's bees in the TBHs had not been previously 'regressed.' Perhaps Dennis can comment. Long-time beekeepers around here say that, since the arrival of varroa, feral colonies here are from swarms escaped from beekeepers' hives. Folks say varroa wiped out the 'original' ferals. I like to think that varroa may have wiped out the ferals with susceptible genetics. The ferals I see these days seem to have either genetics for a varroa-tolerant nest structure or SMR/Hygienic behavior or both. Perhaps other factors are involved as well. Whether these feral survivors were selected from feral or managed colonies, I cannot tell. What I and others do see is an increase in feral colonies (judging by the increase in calls for removals which may be false as people may just be more aware/afraid of [Africanized] bees). Well, I removed a feral colony from an eave of a house on Saturday. It was an average feral colony - roughly 2-3 lbs of bees - for a horizontal cavity at this time of year. They were still raising brood for overwintering. The bee numbers were a little less than half of my strong two-deep hives (in mid-October in New York) but the honey-to-bees ratio seemed right for a successful overwintering. The honey was above and outside the brood area which was in the smaller-sized cells at the bottom. Above the broodnest the cells were visibly larger. Outside of the broodnest the cells were larger and the comb thicker - up to 3" thick for the outer combs. Comb in the broodnest varied from dark brown to pitch black indicating bees had raised brood in it for several seasons. The outer combs were empty and not covered by bees. The brood pattern was very tight with no signs of foulbrood or chalkbrood. The bees looked clean - no DWS or disoriented bees. The bees were very uniform in color - somewhere between classic Italians and classic Carniolans. The bees were very calm - I did not have to light my smoker but this is not unusual when using a bee vac and being gentle with comb removal. I did not have to use a smoker the next day when I went to check for the queen. I got the queen! She's average size, healthy looking. It's too late in the season to set-up a new hive for overwintering. I'll install this queen in one of my hives or a fellow beekeeper's hive for evaluation. This removal took a few hours. I took my time to have a closer look at the nest structure, brood pattern, and made a real effort to get the queen. All in all, my observations agree with what Dennis has reported about his TBHs. A feral colony in an eave is very similar to a horizontal TBH. I plan to measure the broodnest cell size to have a baseline for future benchmarking but the cell size increase upwards and outwards from the broodnest was very evident. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:50:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Test Criteria In-Reply-To: <20051016173833.13062.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) --- "J. Waggle" wrote: > To perform this test in the > sterile environment proposed by some of the > scientists > would not accurately simulate the effects of varroa > on > a colony under common everyday conditions. If you are testing for the effects of varroa on hives in comparing today's bee size and the smaller bee size as grown be Dee Luzby then you have to eliminate all other effects on the bees and this includes chalk brood. You cannot prove a hypothesis on bee size effects on varroa tolerance and have your data skewed by the effects of another factor (chalk brood). Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:48:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) Dee said: > For the time it would take you, you are now too old to > accomplish the task. Better to sell your bees down, > retire, and leave it to the younger generation now coming on. This is an interesting approach! For those who feel that most of the problems in beekeeping can be traced to a bad connection at the handle end of the hive tool, the elimination of experienced beekeepers would either stamp out the last vestiges of prejudice, or it would stamp out the last vestiges of judgment, skill, and experience. jim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 06:58:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Succeeding With Small Cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, > *all* research is flawed in some way > This is the results of the unknown factors I mentioned in a pastpost. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:59:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <20051016174135.57930.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dee Lusby wrote: > Reply: > Exactly. If you cannot address the problem like it > occurs in the field, you cannot correct it in the field later. You have to look at the whole picture to correct many things in life, not sound bites or little patchworks that have no bearing on the whole real world of life. I disagree and reiterate. You test for one criteria at a time, cell size and varroa effects. When you get the data for that, then you test and obtain the data of cell size and chalk brood. Then you further test to see the effects of varroa and chalk brood combined on celll size and see if that data has a positive relationship with the combined data of the previous two tests. The scientific method requires the utilization of only one variable at a time in proving a hypothesis "Cell size directly affects the tollerance of honey bees to varroa". Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:06:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Where's the proof MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>a colony of honeybees, when faced with >different sources of nectar, will consistently focus >on the source with the highest profitability<<< This won't stand alone. Bees have "flower fidelity." That is, they stay = with whatever they have a working relationship with. A new source may be = ignored until the old one dries up. Pollinators know that bees often = ignore the target crop if they have been established at the site too far = in advance. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:08:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Malone wrote: >In the test in question not all colonies had chalkbrood but one thing was constant and that was the race of bee used. > The one thing different in that test was cell sizes which is the factor in question to performance. With these two factors (cell size and race) being constant results were> concluded. There were 2 (two) things different in that test. You just stated that in the two sentences above. ....not all colonies had chalkbrood .... cell sizes which is the factor in question to performance Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:48:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <20051017111050.34788.qmail@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Waggle wrote: > Compete competitors cannot coexist. If two > non-interbreeding populations possess exactly the same > ecological requirements, and live in the same place, > one will have slight advantage and, over time, will > replace the other completely according to the > competition theory. Not true. There are many "competitors" who coexist nicely, in fact end up as cooperating competitors. Plus, the object of the competition will often change to accommodate the competitors. Nature is not static, otherwise you would see uniformity and few species. The opposite is true. Just check the diversity of pollinators on any field and the number that are on the same floral source. You will see honeybees, bumblebees, solitary bees and flies. Even when there are few sources in an area, the source usually accommodates more than one pollinator and "rations" the reward so it will not lose out on pollinators. Sometimes there is even a symbiotic relationship. BTW, I googled "competition theory" since I have never heard of it before and got -The competition theory is based on the Anglo-Saxon model and assumes the existence and justification of differing interests. According to this theory, political opinion is formed in a pluralistic society through an open process of debate and argument between differing heterogeneous interest groups. I do hold my ear to the hive in the dead of winter to see if they are alive. Now I know the buzzing is a heated political debate. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:59:44 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: New Acronym Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Is DWS something like DWV, or something different? Does eveybody but me know what is meant? I first saw DWS on Bee-L a few months ago explained as Deformed Wing Syndrome DWS. I had no way of knowing whether it's a new acronym or one that's been popularized. Sorry for any confusion in using it. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:17:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <20051014043943.35559.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Sorry Bob, but I cannot resist saying this: For the time it > would take you, you are now too old to accomplish the task. > Better to sell your bees down, retire,and leave it to the > younger generation now coming on. It was this statement that got me back posting about small cell. I hope it was made in jest (otherwise it is offensive. I did react zealously and apologize to any I, likewise, offended. I always offend Kieth :)). What it does say, taken literally, is that small cell beekeeping is time consuming, lengthy, difficult, costly and laborious, not for large beekeeping operations but only small ones. Sort of a self defeating statement if taken literally. I did not note any smilies :) Probably others, new to the list, would see it that way. So given a choice between the effort involved with small cell (even if it works!), compared to a couple of squirts of oxalic acid every November while waiting for SMR to work its way into the mainstream, most would decide to wait. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:21:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> *all* research is flawed in some way > > This is the results of the unknown factors I mentioned in a pastpost. Sometimes, but not necessarily. There are many potential sources of flaws. Some are well known, some not. Many projects brave on, in spite of known inadequacies -- even fatal ones -- for many reasons, some of which may be political, some financial, and some due even (I've heard) to outright dishonesty. allen Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like. -- (Will Smith) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:17:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, Because the list is being civil and a decent discussion is going on (or the moderators are deleting a a bunch of posts) I am going to analyze what the Lusby's did in my opinion. If the list has followed my articles on finding varroa tolerant bees you will understand the first and most important trait is able to survive. Dee maybe has never thought of what I am about to say (or maybe she has). She has just completed a 10 year search for a survivor bee. She has selected from a huge population of bees and came up with 10% survivor queens. The only difference between what she did and Purvis & myself is we ADDED varroa pressure to speed the process. I have got varroa pressure on the Australian line starting this year hoping to kill 50% a year off.. Brown's Bees Australia in our last phone conversation said YOU DID WHAT! I did all the evaluation this season he requested so now time to put three lines (Australian , Italy Italian and Buckfast) to the varroa and secondary disease test! It is hard for beekeepers to understand the value of added varroa pressure. I believe I could have found a varroa tolerant bee in Dee's stock in half the time if using added varroa pressure! Ok. Now we know Dee is running varroa tolerant bees. She should not see any secondary disease. Zero PMS! By constantly replacing wax over the last 10 years she has taken comb rotation to levels never even dreamed of even by the Europeans! Some EU beekeepers rotate all comb ever 3-4 years at most. The last important key to her success (in my opinion) is the lack of stress in her bees being on permanant locations. I am more interested in her bees than small cell. I firmly believe cell size difference of .2 to .3 of a mm. has little to do with hive well being! The small cell group believe 4.9 mm is the correct size for bees. Bob Harrison is very happy with 5.1mm. and has zero secondary disease in hives headed by Varroa tolerant survivor queens or a Russian queen. If you put one of my queens in a hive with 4.9mm and one of my queens in a hive with 5.1 to 5.3 mm both would not get secondary disease problems such as PMS! I believe I have got the most varroa tolerant bee in the world in mine and the yards of Purvis Brothers Apiaries. We are considering a large import of Purvis Brothers Gold line II breeder queens into Australia so the Gold line queens can return heading up Australian package bees for those wanting varroa tolerant queens. I do relate to Dee's "whereas the proof" issues as I have learned many things working with my bees that the research community would say "Hey wait a minute" to if published. Many researchers are working with "a hand tied behind their back" by always worried about "peer pressure" and having to be careful of their opinions. I have no such hang-up! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:28:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Competition is the root and core of all life forms. Harmonious life is > certainly an ideal, but it is harmonious competition. Bees may not wage > war, but they DO constantly do their best to ensure the survival and > proliferation of their lines. Its called the game of life and it is a game > played by all lifeforms that exist. Thanks for explaining this to me, but I have to admit that it sounds to me a lot more like pop philosphy than science, and frankly I'm not sure I can see things quite that simply. allen I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts. -- Bethania McKenstry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:28:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Sorry Bob, but I cannot resist saying this: For the time it > would take you, you are now too old to accomplish the task. > Better to sell your bees down, retire,and leave it to the > younger generation now coming on. I have retired to a small commercial migratory operation. Sadly I have got to stand over the younger generation to get things done! I am expanding my queen rearing operation. I will be doing an upcoming article on the first migratory queen rearing operation. I am afraid when I die out in the bee yard they will have to pry the hive tool from my dead fingers! This is a story about two beekeepers which always worked together. One day they were discussing if bee hives and beekeeping were in Heaven. Later on one of the beekeepers died. The other beekeeper went on working his bees. One day he felt a tap on his shoulder. He turned and saw his old beekeeper friend. He asked his friend about Heaven. His friend said he had some good news and other news. He asked for the good news. Yes he said beekeeping was in heaven! He asked for the other news? His old beekeeper friend said the other news was: "You will be running the extractor in heaven next Saturday! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:00:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell In-Reply-To: <004001c5d33f$4852e640$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > *all* research is flawed in some way Because there are flaws in the research, that fact might and might not invalidate the research. Most flaws are not killers but are something that the researcher may have not thought of but does not cause the results to be thrown out. It may be something as simple as temperature (why did you not test at ...?). So you run it again and get the same results, so all is well... or maybe not (did you change the pressure?). I think the greatest chance of a flaw is when the researcher is responsible for creating a computer model and then uses it to find results. It is nearly impossible not to inject bias into the model to arrive at the desired result. Since we are flawed, the more we inject ourselves into the experiment, the greater the potential error. All of us on the BeeList are flawed in some way, but that sure does not stop us from posting :) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:28:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20051017065742.008833e0@pop.gwi.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT George, >Boy if they could just calm the girls down some and tone down that >swarming/absconding tendancy, they'd be great :) > For some time, years ago, I suggested that heavy selective breeding should be done with the AHB. They are a good natural resource, in spite of their down side. I recall an old saying, "When life presents you with lemons, make lemonade." Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:02:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: walter weller Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Enough arreddy!! If I never hear the word "research" again it'll be too = soon. What difference does it make?? At least you haven't started arguing epistomology (the nature of = knowledge and truth) but I live in dread of it. Those who wish to could = debate it forever. Walter Weller -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:33:58 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: TBH Question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Rip, >>I have a number of Quiby hives with frames that predate foundation. Are your Quiby hives populated with bees? If yes, assuming you don't rearrange the nests - do you have a varroa problem? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:40:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <005901c5d348$8601d420$04bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob: I can relate fully to what you say. For if I/we too were to want to start today, to redo what we have done, we would not have the time to do so again. This is probably why we try to help so many others now coming up. Yet, Bob we only have wanted to retool about a 1,000 to 1,200 colonies or so, to avoid the usage of treatments. But feeling our way thru the problem has been going on for more then 2 decades now: Namely, how to keep running our honeybees without the usage of treatments. We consume a lot of honey by the way in our diet by not using sugar, and by the way I cook. Just cannot put the treated stuff into our mouths for some reason. But we could never do another 20+ years starting today, for it would then put us into our 80s trying to get done, and I shutter to think if 1,000 colonies means so long a time then what will bigger beekeepers go thru, even now with the foundations available we have been making by hand for so long. Pun for saying it to you. Maybe! but it's also something that you have to think about when commercial too now I would say, just in case we are right. For the worse isn't over yet in straightening the bees out, until they are turned around for living clean. Then we can all eat healthy and unafraid. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:06:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <4353C7B2.7020509@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit J. Waggle wrote: > Compete competitors cannot coexist. If two > non-interbreeding populations possess exactly the same > ecological requirements, and live in the same place, > one will have slight advantage and, over time, will > replace the other completely according to the > competition theory. Reply: Don't know if I can go along with this concerning honeybees. In the wild, races/strains do come together as they transition into and out of climatic regions. Were they come together then they become simple hybrids for the transition with each on one side I would think. But they must meet in the middle for food, mating, and environmental living, to together produce a simple hybrid............ Isn't this what Italian are in a way? A thoroughbred hyrid bee that Cale used to write about and talk about the price we paid for not paying more attention to colour in our breeding practices to maybe match Nature more. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:19:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Succeeding With Wintering and Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, > It is hard for beekeepers to understand the value of added varroa = pressure. > I understand completely, in addition I am adding cold weather and light = deprivation in winter pressure. > The small cell group believe 4.9 mm is the correct size for bees. > This is not true, you may need more study of the group. c]:~)> > We are considering a large import of > Purvis Brothers Gold line II breeder queens into Australia so the Gold = line > queens can return heading up Australian package bees for those wanting > varroa tolerant queens. >=20 In essence this is what I do with my line to California to bring back in = package bees for myself and other beekeepers up here wanting cold and = varroa tolerant bees for wintering. I sent several breeder queens reared = and mated from my best wintering colonies to California, daughters from = these queens will be sent back in package bees next spring if all goes = well. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:23:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <4353CE85.10403@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bill Truesdell wrote: ...while > waiting for SMR to work its way into the mainstream, > most would decide > to wait. You'll be waiting for a long time. ;>) The SMR bees do not exist. The trait was explained by Ibrahim and Spivak as hygienic behavior. The belief was that the bees somehow had the ability to cause infertility of mites and suppressed mite reproduction, hence the acronym SMR. But research has shown that it was the hygienic trait being expressed. WARNING: do not believe this research just yet! You will still have to wait for Bob, Jim & Co. to give 'valid research blessings' before accepting this, it could be flawed and sloppy research. ;>) http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/Publications.htm?seq_no_115=178712 Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:41:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <002501c5d325$7c826c20$01bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, She has just completed a 10 year search for a survivor bee. She has selected from a huge population of bees and came up with 10% survivor queens. Reply: No offense, but this happened with the shakedown in the spring of 1997 (Feb started). From there we have come steadly forward. Maybe not fast, but as the bees could work the combs back up with our desert climate (also over 5 years of bad drought thrown in.). Bob continues:The only difference between what she did and Purvis & myself is we ADDED varroa pressure to speed the process. Reply: Varroa hit us about 1994 and the varroa count found during our shakedown of apiaries by the Tucson Bee Lab was sent to me during a talk at the 1997 Alabama State Beekeepers 100 Aniv Meeting and published in the Sept 1997 issue of ABJ if I remember correctly. No other tests were ever taken by the way, but then our problems stopped with mites and secondary diseases went away. All we have done since is grow bees limited by the small amount of wax drawn in a desert climate. So we shook down with varroa pressure to get immediately to a survival bee and weed out the ones that wouldn't make it. We were told probably 90% wouldn't and yep, 90% didn't make it thru. So much for survivalability in the USA of domestic bees. Reply: Ok. Now we know Dee is running varroa tolerant bees. She should not see any secondary disease. Zero PMS! Reply: Right! no parafoul. and yes we have debated this in the past the foul mixture in the hives and PMS we call parafoul. That we havem't seen much of since shakedown. (also talked about it on other lists too these past years). Bob continues:By constantly replacing wax over the last 10 years she has taken comb rotation to levels never even dreamed of even by the Europeans! Reply: Don't think so here. For to do that with us retooling our won wax we would not be 900+ colonies today in deeps 3/4 high (some 5 right now) in our desert climate, while going thru 5 plus years of dought. We have pulled badly drawnout combs and melted, but that is minor compared to the workup producing splits/divides for expansion. And those that come can see the wax is dark and aged, being there a few years now. Bob continues: The last important key to her success (in my opinion) is the lack of stress in her bees being on permanant locations. Reply: Now this you would have to visit to see. Lack of you say. We have plenty of vandals, animals (large), and theft to deal with, besides the microbursts to deal with out here. You should be so lucky. Bob again:I firmly believe cell size difference of .2 to .3 of a mm. has little to do with hive well being! Reply: It is the jump distance in each regression down, and each regression clears up problems, of which hive well being is included. Bob writes: hive with 5.1 to 5.3 mm both would not get secondary disease problems such as PMS! Reply: Okay for now, but I will wait to hear what you are saying in about 10 years, considering the past 10 in experimenting. As to where's the proof, I guess for the two of us, we just keep going, for we must believe in what we do to go forward, regardless of what others say. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:59:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom said: For some time, years ago, I suggested that heavy selective breeding should be done with the AHB. I would not attempt such a program simply because the AHB in the southern U.S. is a mixed mongrel bag unlike what Barry Seargant has been working with in SA. I do not see any benefit from mongrel bees at all. All the talk of feral hives being so wonderful does not impress me. THEY DO NOT BREED TRUE FOR THE MOST PART & YOU CAN GET ALL KIND OF F1 bees! To breed an improved bee you need to know some of the lineage. Color is no indicator with AHB in the southwest. Brother Adam realized this and when searching for a bee to incorporate into his breeding program and searched for the most true to the *Ruttner classification* he could find. He never learned wing venation in the early years and only went to instrumental insemination in later years but I still admire Brother Adam and consider him one of the worlds most knowledgeable queen breeders of his era! Example from his video "Monk and the Honey Bee": He went into the mountains looking for the pure monticola. Brother Adam kept telling the others of the Ruttner description of the monticola bee. Finally the group found a bee with all the Ruttner described traits. Today we would have simply done a wing venation or DNA but now is not then. Once genetics get as mixed up as in the case of our U.S. AHB then heavy selective breeding might create a workable bee but then what does the supercede bee become. When the honey bee genome becomes available and each queen can be mapped then a serious breeder might be able to tame the AHB through instrumental insemination. Trying to open mate your program AHB queens in an area of AHB could certainly cause undesirable results. The wrong mix of genetics could let you end up with a queen which produced bees which run on frames, swarmed constantly and were very aggressive! In my opinion taming the AHB at this point in time is simply a pipe dream! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:21:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The SMR bees do not exist. The trait was explained by Ibrahim and Spivak as hygienic behavior. I don't buy it! Dr. Harbo explained smr to me and the method to detect those bees with the SMR trait. I have tested many hives with the SMR trait which were NOT hygienic as defined by Marla. Painting SMR as simply a form of hygienic behavior will not work for me! Something else is going on with those bees and I believe involves the JGH or a signal from the larva/cell which renders the mature varroa unable to mate. If SMR was simply the removal of varroa infected brood I would have observed such in observation hives and I have not. Only my opinion but I worked with SMR bees for several years and had Glenn apiaries SMR II breeder queens. Also Marla Spivak hygienic II breeder queens. I realize the hypothesis Joe has presented is being accepted but I still don't buy it! I hope to live long enough to see the *SMR trait does not exist* be proven incorrect. Bob "What we do not know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd!" Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:08:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The SMR bees do not exist. The trait was explained by Ibrahim and Spivak > as hygienic behavior. The belief was that the bees somehow had the ability > to cause infertility of mites and suppressed mite reproduction, hence the > acronym SMR. But research has shown that it was the hygienic trait being > expressed. Well, again, it is not that simple. I think that I wrote about it here some time back... here it is! http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0501C&L=bee-l&P=R429 Add to that Bob's recent comments, plus leave some room for what we do not yet know. (SMR=HYG)=False allen There are two types of people--those who come into a room and say, 'Well, here I am!' and those who come in and say, 'Ah, there you are.' -- Frederick L Collins -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:35:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the proof In-Reply-To: <00d101c5d32c$59a4ee10$fb309440@drivec> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dick Marron wrote: > ...Bees have "flower fidelity." > That is, they stay with whatever they have a working > relationship with. A new source may be ignored until > the old one dries up. Dick, Intresting! I'm not doubting you, but has any one else on the list observed this behavior? It kinda goes against Seeley's research: "Seeley was able to show that when a colony was faced with two different sources of nectar, it consistently focused on the source with the highest profitability - profitability is defined as a function of nectar sweetness, accessibility, abundance and distance from the hive. Furthermore, if the nectar sources changed profitability, the colony changed its focus." http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/control_models.htm Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:01:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Amateur Replicatable Experiment Trials/Santa group In-Reply-To: <43524674.6040106@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dave Cushman wrote: > Hi Chris & all > > > > We have in the UK and Ireland been trying to get > some valid amateur > > research under way... Dave, What type of research do most want to see over there? I've been messing around with ideas for how one might one develop a simple test which may determine "The influence of corolla width on foraging preferences between large and small cell honeybees." I have a rough draft drawn up on how the test might be done, but I believe I need to get some imput from others. Would this be something your group might be interested in discussing? I have ideas in creating the corollas, but I am looking for ideas on how one might simulate the nectaries buried deep within inflorescence such as red clover. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:51:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:23:31 -0700, J. Waggle wrote: “……The SMR bees do not exist” and other statements quoted below: Whoa Nelly!!! Actually they do, please see http://members.aol.com/queenb95/smr.html and furthermore, granted, the following statement is a true statement, “The belief was that the bees somehow had the ability to cause infertility of mites and suppressed mite reproduction, hence the acronym SMR. But research has shown that it was the hygienic trait being expressed.” However, the statement, “WARNING: do not believe this research just yet!” and “You will still have to wait for Bob, Jim & Co. to give 'valid research blessings' before accepting this, it could be flawed and sloppy research.” In my humble opinion is flawed. Harbo & Harris published in 2003, “An Evaluation of Commercially-Produced Queens That Have the Smr Trait”. You may find an abbreviated version at: http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm? SEQ_NO_115=143809 . Harbo & Harris published Title: “The Smr Trait Explained by Hygienic Behavior of Adult Bees” of which you gave the link for the abbreviated version, Development and Use of Mite-Resistance Traits in Honey-Bee Breeding, http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/Publications.htm? seq_no_115=178712. This was published in the American Bee Journal as An Evaluation Of Commercially-Produced Queens That Have The Smr Trait. American Bee Journal. 2003. Vol. 143, Pgs. 213-216, Edition #3. I doubt that Harbo and Harris would ever publish “flawed and sloppy research”, their work has helped our industry immensely. Perhaps you could take note of the title, “The Smr Trait Explained by Hygienic Behavior of Adult Bees”. Back in 1999 Dr. M. Spivak published in the January issue of the “American Bee Journal” her acknowledgement that her line of hygienic bees would be penned, “Minnesota Hygienics”. Dr. Spivak went on to say,” My goal in breeding the hygienic line of bees was to demonstrate to the beekeeping industry that this behavior is a mechanism of resistance to American foulbrood and chalkbrood, and is one mode of defense against Varroa mites.” Getting to the point: In 2003 it was already known from Dr. Spivak and before her, Dr. Steve Tabor, that genetic traits for hygienic behavior existed; it simply was not IMHO assumed that additional genetic traits for SMR were known to exist side by side. The 2003 work became accepted and understood and as thoughts of additional hygienic traits evolved folks thought that there was more to the idea of SMR. For several years it was thought that there was another mechanism of the SMR behavior existing as another hygienic trait. (trait and behavior are not the same mule) This was brought to the point of publication in the May 2005 ABJ, under “Procedings of the American Bee Research Conference”, on the same page as Ibrahim and Spivak’s published abbreviated version, “HONEY BEE RESISTANCE TO VARROA: HOW MUCH OF THE SMR TRAIT (SIC) IS DUE TO HYGIENIC BEHAVIOR?” from which I quote the first line, “- Suppression of Mite Reproduction (SMR) is an important, heritable mechanism of bee resistance to ‘Varroa destructor’, (Harbo & Harris, 1999 J Econ. Entomol. 90:893-897. The summary of Ibrahim and Spivak’s published work gives the following statement, “… bees bred for SMR do detect and remove mite-infested pupae, and tend to remove those pupae infested with reproductive mites, leaving pupae with mites that have low reproductive success.” So, I say in my humble opinion and predicated upon the referenced published research given above that, the statement, “The SMR bees do not exist”, is without foundation. Sincerely, Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, North Carolina -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:01:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Morphological Characteristics of AHB & Small Bees In-Reply-To: <20051017224112.46142.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman, I need some advice please, Was reading a study that mentioned there were five possible quantitative trait loci that effects drone size, and a possible 4 QTLs that affected worker size. My colonies are set in at about 5.0 mm and seem to not want to draw smaller than that. Kimsey 1982 writes "wing length is linearly correlated with body size". So I'm looking to use wing length measurements as a possible tool in assessing which colonies have genetic potential to seat in at a smaller size. I'm wondering if the fore-wing would be the one to measure here. Wondering also if you observed any other morphological characteristics in smaller bees I can use to help determine the 'actual' bee size? Are wings measured with a projection slide screen or under a microscope and what magnification? I would also like to get started up with Morphometry. Could you please advise what tools I need to get started? Also looking to start FABIS testing next spring as a part of my swarm collecting procedures. I need to learn this FABIS technique because I collect many swarms to integrate into my Apiaries. Is the FABIS method available on your site? They are drawing up some kind if 'AHB plan' here in PA, and this would put me ahead of the curve here. The pest company I collect swarms for is getting a bit antsy about the possibility of AHB and we are considering including FABIS testing in the swarm collecting fee. Best wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:06:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <200510180151.j9I1YRgJ000763@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, I might as well toss in my $0.02 also. I was at one of Dr. Harbo's talks on SMR 2 or 3 years back and he took the time to point out some of the differences between SMR bees and "regular" bees. It was more than just bees removing infested larvae. The mites themselves exhibited different behavior under the cell caps. One example that comes to mind is that mites reportedly have a specific site where they defecate and mate. Dr. Harbo pointed out that SMR mites actually defecate in a different area of the cell than do non-SMR bees. I realize much of this "verbal fencing" is being done in fun, but still can't we try to strive for a bit more accuracy in our statements? Is it that important to "win" the debate? From what I've seen on these discussion groups (and not just BeeL) is that having to be *right* sometimes seems to take precedence over being *accurate*. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:34:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee said: So we shook down with varroa pressure to get immediately to a survival bee and weed out the ones that wouldn't make it. We were told probably 90% wouldn't and yep, 90% didn't make it through. So much for survivability in the USA of domestic bees. The above IS the formula for finding a survivor bee. In the first years many could not even get 10% to survive. One reason being reinfestation. Even if for some reason the hive was able to tolerate varroa and keep levels low the hive could still not handle robbing worker bees transporting huge number of mature varroa into the hive. Reply: Right! no parafoul. and PMS we call parafoul. I do not keep a colony around which shows signs of PMS in a survivor program. I remove the colony from the program and most times treat and use for pollination/honey production. Horace Bell & I went through some colonies he had left alone to see if they would survive last April in Florida. I took no queens as all had signs of PMS. My opinion is that the actual varroa load is not as important as is the colonies ability to handle the secondary infections such as PMS. I have got some Russian hives which have been left untreated for around four years. Some carry a high mite load in fall which would need treatment by researchers standards but NO pms. My criteria is that I do not worry about the varroa load as long as no PMS. I do find deformed bees and bees with wing problems at times in some of those hives. My friend in the U.K. Norman Carrick says his research (former research of Bailey ) has determined a hive can survive a high infestation of varroa as long as the virus problem (PMS) is kept in check. Is mite load the best method to evaluate a hive for varroa tolerance? The virus issue is complicated. I have seen private correspondence between the U.S. and the U.K (Brenda Ball) on the subject. Scary stuff. >As to where's the proof, I guess for the two of us, we just keep going, for we must believe in what we do to go forward, regardless of what others say. I do not try to convince researchers of my ideas. I mainly use my information to help my commercial beekeeper friends. They are very interested in what I learn. The research community says "Wheres the proof". Interesting discussion Dee! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:23:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <001801c5d394$f5a9e5a0$12bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob writes: Interesting discussion Dee! Reply: Yep, talking between us has always been interesting Bob. But I misquoted to you earlier. I am getting old in memory I guess. The mite statistics I presented at the Alabama State Beekeepers 100 Anniv Meeting in 1997 that the Tucson lab mailed to me down there, wasn't published until Dec 97 in ABJ. Also I forgot it was about testing for both mites, Trachael and Varroa as beekeepers were crashing all around us from both mites at the time. So the figures found were for both mites. So what does that do then for testing for one thing at a time then by a research facility? Here it was for both mites like would be found in a real world situation. Bob you wrote: In the first years many could not even get 10% to survive. One reason being reinfestation. Even if for some reason the hive was able to tolerate varroa and keep levels low the hive could still not handle robbing worker bees transporting huge number of mature varroa into the hive. Reply: Well, we worked around the problem by going smaller in cell size to reduce the JGH levels in our bees to mimic Apis Cerena so the mites wouldn't reproduce. So one mite in would be one mite out until they were groomed off and out of the colonoy or until they died of old age. Remember Bob, we used to talk about JGH and mimicing Apis Cerena traits to keep mites under control. But it can only be done by reducing the cell size back down from enlarged artificial sizing, one step at a time. Also found in going smaller we got more bees per area of brood space raised (more compacted) and this gave us more bees then for division of labor IMPOV to handle other problems like robbing you talk about too, and grooming and even started seeing ones new to us the bees started doing, aka, chewing out of varroa for example. Bob writes: I do not keep a colony around which shows signs of PMS in a survivor program. Reply: We run everything together now strange as that may sound. Yet this past year pulled combs from maybe two colonies that had sickened cells in them from foul. Guess we are sort of in a live and let die situation and to pull something, it must be more then probably a good dozen or so mummies per side of frame for us to pull it. Figure good health bees should be able to clean up periodic problems, as we consider the broodnest like an acting working liver all animals have for riding oneself of diseases and problems, for it turns on and off for cleansing. Bob states: I remove the colony from the program and most times treat and use for pollination/honey production. Reply: We ourselves don't do that as we don't belive in treating and then eating it ourselves. Bob writes:My opinion is that the actual varroa load is not as important as is the colonies ability to handle the secondary infections such as PMS. Reply: This I would disagree with in priority as they are equal. For if varroa chew on bees and cause wounds, then they vector in infection and one goes then hand in hand with the other for control and cannot be seperated. For reduce the mites, you then reduce the chewing upon the bees bodies creating open wounds, when then stops the vectoring in of sedondary diseases like PMS or parafoul. Bob writes:Is mite load the best method to evaluate a hive for varroa tolerance? Reply: Not in my opinion if one is thinking HIGH mite load. Especially in the beginning of regression down for control of the problem. You would want to see a high mite load and/or drop. The higher the better. Nice talking again, Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:19:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <002501c5d325$7c826c20$01bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob > By constantly replacing wax over the last 10 years she has taken comb > rotation to levels never even dreamed of even by the Europeans! Some EU > beekeepers rotate all comb ever 3-4 years at most. European comb replacement is shorter time periods than this. Some beekeepers in Denmark replace comb entirely in every colony, every year, in UK 3-4 years would be not far from the average. During the period 1970 through to present day, replacement rate has shifted from above five years down to two or three years and is still reducing as more shook swarming (shakedowns) take place. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:46:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Where's the proof In-Reply-To: <20051018003515.40483.qmail@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <20051018003515.40483.qmail@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, J. Waggle writes >Intresting! I'm not doubting you, but has any one >else on the list observed this behavior? Many many times............. Now, this is not an isolated case, but I will give only a single example but could cite dozens if I check back. July 2005. Location: Raebush, nr Aboyne, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Bee types: Primarily N.European Blacks, some pure, some mongrels, plus 6 hives of straight carnica. Main forage (surrounded by it) Erica cineria 55 colonies in standards Polystyrene Langstroth boxes. Now, when these colonies were checked it was found that the majority were indeed working the main source well, and were indeed gaining weight well. However, not all colonies were doing this. Three colonies were identified as collecting all white honey (Erica is a rich orange colour when fresh in this area). Initial thoughts were clover as there is a lot of it about, but closer checking turned up a flowering field of mustard as a cover crop at over a mile distant, and that is what they were working, never leaving it till the day it got cut down and then they went over on to the Erica and subsequent flowering of the calluna in the same location. One colony was collecting urine coloured honey (sorry but it is the best description of the colour I can come up with), and on tasting it it was apparent that it was Lime (Linden or Basswood for those where those names are current). These trees do exist in the area but only sporadically, and at a considerable distance. These kind of incidents happen frequently, and were seen a lot round the Edinburgh area this summer too, when the bees had a choice of clover, phacelia, spring rapeseed (canola), or limes. Not all colonies in the groups chose the same source as their primary one, and some just mixed up everything. Distance was a primary factor there, but not obviously the be all and end all of it. Incidentally, the colonies which did best were generally those with the biggest and blackest bees. I do not operate ANY colonies on cell size smaller than Pierco, but for sure those on traditional wood and wax, with a slightly larger cell size (irrelevant in my view in this narrow case) did the best. At ALL times I see colonies working a dominant forage source it is apparent that they do not work solely that source. There are always some bees carrying a minority pollen. As examples, at rapeseed time in the spring there is always some dandelion coming in, and at heather time in late summer there is always some tormentil pollen coming in. Probably seeking a balance in their diet in some way. What does any of this show? Nothing more than making absolute statements that bees will behave to some human concept of an efficiency model is nonsense. They behave to their own agenda. Also FWIW. I had some of the Elgon derived stock here to test. Joe would have loved them.........huge colonies of nice gentle bees. Foraged early in the morning, fast fliers, zipping in and out almost without landing, continued till late at night, took their feeding twice as fast as our own bees. They were small fast bees and very easy to work with, and the brood patterns were solid, right into the corners of the frames..........BUT They had very poor response to dearths, they bred to their capacity for a large proportion of the summer. The colony power, whilst very large, was no so large as to be proportional to the black bees alongside them if you considered the brood area. My conclusion was that they were a shorter lived bee and needed to breed harder to keep the population up..........and they gave less honey at season end than the smaller colonies of black bees, sometimes much less, and some of them were flirting with starvation because they ate it all, and the dark colonies round them had a full average harvest on board to be taken. I gave the strain three years to see how they would fare in a variety of seasonal patterns but the results were the same, and at the end they got their marching orders, requeened with proven stock. So, brood area and foraging patterns are not reliable measures of efficiency to my mind. There have to be other measures, and if the house is depending on it, to echo Trevors statement, it is honey in the tank that matters. Whatever the activity of these bees was about, it certainly was not efficiency in an economic sense. First time I have chipped in for a long time, the end of a long season for us so back in circulation for the winter now. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:50:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] In-Reply-To: <20051017.074316.769.175768@webmail05.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar >>>...I think that the cell size that a bee was raised in has an influence on the cell size that it will draw when it does not have a template. > > > That's what I have been told, too, but I am not convinced just yet ;-). It is fairly easy to demonstrate, although I can't say that I have tested it very many times. You can take bees from a colony of already measured cell size and give them frames with a bead of wax that has no cell size implication. The comb that they draw is the same as the parent colony. You can then take bees from those colonies and make further colonies, giving them foundation of a different size (smaller or larger) and they will follow the shift, providing it is not more than about 0.2 mm jump in size. What I have not done is to take these altered bees and reverse the the test or take enlarged bees through the same size and then smaller. This testing was not complete, but has finished and is unlikely to be re-started by me. The tests were done using ten cell (and more) averaging, and does not take account of the contours of fine gradation in cell size identified by Dennis. However anyone repeating the tests could compare ranges of cell sizes rather than averaging, I believe that such ranges would also be consistent to the findings for averages. All the cell measurements were taken in the brood area of the comb, which in UK bees tends to be central and smaller than the brood area exhibited in Langstroth frames with US bees. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:29:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Amateur Replicatable Experiment Trials/Santa group In-Reply-To: <20051018010116.64110.qmail@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe > What type of research do most want to see over there? A very mixed bag, there are three polls at the bottom of the page... http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/irishbeekeeping/polls The poll results were assessed using various weighting schemes, the results of which can be read In messages 13410, 13412 and 13420 with the thread title 'Results of Santa's first Poll'... put the numbers into the search box on http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/irishbeekeeping/messages Red clover seems to act like a magnet for beekeepers, but not for bees :-) Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:35:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Morphological Characteristics of AHB & Small Bees In-Reply-To: <20051018020135.33911.qmail@web34310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe > I need some advice please, I can answer quite a lot of what you ask, but it will have to wait for a day or so. Jim Fischer's saw may well scream at midnight, but mine has to do so while my wife is out visiting :-) Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 04:28:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <5ff8ec6bbb81fb6f785e45f1d13d43fb@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dick Allen wrote: > > I realize much of this "verbal fencing" is being > done in fun, but still > can't we try to strive for a bit more accuracy in > our statements? Is > it that important to "win" the debate? Agree, that's why if at all possible, I will back up my statements more evidence from ARS publication or other supporting documents or experts. This way, all on the list can judge for themselves if accuracy is sufficient. Someone here said something about a 'turf war' with the Norland study. Well my personal opinion is that the fight to keep the SMR name alive is an attempt to protect the 'turf' (turf = $$$$) and save time and money spent in this area. The evidence found by Ibrahim and Spivak explains SMR as hygienic behavior in the ARS link I provide. That the mites must adjust their survival strategy does not mean that the honeybees are SMR (having this magical ability to suppress mite reproduction). This is simply an effect on the mites from colonies that have a highly developed hygienic trait. If I am wrong here, I would enjoy seeing supporting evidence produced that would prove otherwise. Until then, NEW evidence shows that there is no such thing as SMR honeybees. http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/Publications.htm?seq_no_115=178712 Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:00:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Where's the proof In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray > What does any of this show? Nothing more than making absolute statements > that bees will behave to some human concept of an efficiency model is > nonsense. They behave to their own agenda. Foraging preferences should not be considered as a 'colony feature' and even though dance information will be picked up by several of the patrilines in a colony, each patriline ccould have a different response to the situation. I have not seen such striking examples as Murray, because I have rarely been dealing with such high colony numbers, but I have seen plenty of foraging situations that did not make sense (to me at least) I have seen a group of more than fifty colonies ignore a field of rape that they were sitting in the lower margin of, and fly to a field of rape of identical seed type on a remote part of the same farm, the soil type could have been different, however the crops were sown within hours of each other and obviously enjoyed the same weather. I could not tell any difference between the fields myself. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:13:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Flower fidelity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I said: >>>they stay with whatever they have a working > relationship with. <<< Joe quoted Seely: >>> faced with two different sources of nectar, it consistently = focused on the source with the highest profitability <<<< Both could easily be true... if the 2 sources were presented at the = same time. I thought it was common knowledge that if you were putting = bees on an unpalatable crop (like blueberries) that it would be = important to place them there just as they were coming into bloom. If = they were there too early they would get interested in another source = and ignore the target. I have several hives right in the middle of a = couple of acres of blueberries, for a few years, and have never seen a = bee on the blossoms. I'll try to find the reference but with this list so full of = heavyweights I'm sure someone will provide it. I'm pretty sure it was = one of the great speakers that came to our club. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:07:17 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dave, >>...bees from a colony of already measured cell size and give them ... no cell size implication ... comb that they draw is the same as the parent colony. I have no reason to doubt this; however, I need to convince MYSELF of this. :) Perhaps Dennis can say whether he put regressed bees in his TBHs! I thought his were unregressed bees. Bees maintaining the cell size they were raised on would undermine the local long-time beekeepers' belief that our ferals come from the beekeepers' swarms that were raised on commercial foundation (5.1mm and up). If I find that the feral comb cell is smaller! AFAIK, there are no 49-ers in my area. This would be a sure-fire way of determining if a wild colony originated from a domestic hive or a feral nest. >>This testing was not complete, but has finished and is unlikely to be re-started by me. What I have not done until now, is save and measure broodnest cells from my feral removals. I have the brood comb from Saturday's removal and will measure the cell size tonight using calipers across ten cells. I have very dark comb from a tree colony that I removed back in June but at this point I can't be sure of its location within the nest. I'll measure it out of curiosity as well. >>All the cell measurements were taken in the brood area of the comb, which in UK bees tends to be central and smaller than the brood area exhibited in Langstroth frames with US bees. Perhaps the managed bees in the US are larger than in the UK. Larger bees potentially might be more inclined to produce smaller-cell natural comb. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:15:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: foraging efficiency > When a non-beekeeper asks me "How far will bees fly to forage?" > I tell them, "Only as far as they have to." While bees will tend to favor the closer of two foraging sources of equal value in terms of the sugar content of the nectar, this statement is only true for the bulk of the foragers. Hives constantly "hedge their bets", as "rouge" foragers go out on speculative "reconnaissance missions" to discover new or different sources, often far afield from the hive. The pay off is that if the current "favorite" nectar source dries up, the bees coming back from sorties to other sources will then have the "best" trade off between distance and nectar sugar content, allowing the bulk of the foragers to "turn on a dime", and start exploiting the source that is further away. Tom Seeley's book "The Wisdom Of The Hive" covers all this in much greater detail than I have. jim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:05:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison writes >>>Many researchers are working with "a hand tied behind their back" by always worried about "peer pressure" and having to be careful of their opinions. <<< I think it is worse than that frankly. Prior to "Reganomics", the byword was "publish or perish", afterwards it was "find your own research funds". It is not so much "peer pressure" as it is "grantor pressure". Negative evidence was never very popular but has become the "kiss of death" in the current climate. Ace "widget" Industries isn't going to be a repeat "customer/grantor" if you find, in the course of your research they have largely funded, that Ace "widgets", or even any other "widget", are not all they are cracked up to be. >>>I have no such hang-up!<<< You are also effectively "self funded", most researchers should be so lucky. Look at what Bud Cale was able to accomplish with his in-law's, if I recall correctly, deep pockets. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:06:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: foraging efficiency MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim, > The pay off is that if the current "favorite" nectar source > dries up, the bees coming back from sorties to other sources > will then have the "best" trade off between distance and > nectar sugar content, Still sounds to me that the bees will go "Only as far as they have to." . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:03:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <001801c5d394$f5a9e5a0$12bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: > I have got some Russian hives which have been left > untreated for around four > years. Some carry a high mite load in fall which > would need treatment by > researchers standards but NO pms. Bob, These Russians that you have had for four years, have you requeened? I currently have some Russians via a study with which I am involved and would like to continue with Russians in another yard. What was your source of Russians initially and with requeening if you did do that? If you want you can respond offline. I am trying to repopulate my county with beekeepers via classes each fall and would like to promote Russians and/or SMR's with my students. Mike Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:20:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <5ff8ec6bbb81fb6f785e45f1d13d43fb@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dick Allen wrote: > From what > I've seen on these > discussion groups (and not just BeeL) is that having > to be *right* > sometimes seems to take precedence over being > *accurate*. > I have posted responses on BEE-L fairly frequently and feel that negative responses to these comments to be of an educational opportunity. I KNOW that I don't know. I feel that any responses to what I say will become either a verification of my thoughts or a correction to faulty knowlege or thought processes. As an ex-teacher I feel that progress is only made by making mistakes. Hopefully none of them will be fatal or harmful. If we can all approach these discussions with this thought in mind maybe we can really make some progress in our collective thinking/problem resolution and educate ourselves beyond what we are able to get from our research institutions. DaVinci was a guy way out of the mainstream thinking of his time. Yet a lot of what was outlandish then has now become accepted thought. If we can all refrain from denigrating thoughts and concepts presented here and instead approach such with the thought, "What if he/she is right?" and pursue either proving or disproving such ideas or throwing back in such thoughts as "What if..." we can establish a truely creative discussion list. Instead of saying, "No way, Hosea!" and responding instead "I tried that and these are the results I had." and being open to further discussion of methodology we can progress in our indeavor to find the perfect bee. Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, AL __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:02:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Where's the "proof"? revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe the way to make my point is to fall back on definition by example. What is "good" research? Basically it is asking a question, a question which is phrased as precisely as possible. For example, in a quick and dirty example which is a gross over simplification; (step 1) Ask a question. Why is the sky blue? If the question were; Why is the sky coloured? It would be too broad since what is to say that the sky is, or isn't, a particular colour for the same reason as some other colour. (step 2) Gather as many observations regarding the sky, blue, etc. as possible, negative as well as positive, and develop a hypothesis had fits those observations. (step 3) You would then design a test to evaluate the validity of the hypothesis. (step 4) You would determine if the hypothesis is valid (step 5) You, and others, would continue to repeatedly retest the hypothesis either in the same manner or by other tests which may be devised by someone over time. Keeping in mind that nothing is ever proven, only disproven. (step 6) At some point, following (step 4) you would publish your interpretation of the results and the data you have developed. The information upon which the hypothesis is ultimately based may be published prior to the actual to the actual work, if any, in the form of a "review" article. A review article contains nothing "new" only the most complete citing of previously published data, negative as well as positive, related to the topic. It would point out any conflicts, as well as agreement, in reported results. In conclusion the author may present questions they feel might be used as a basis for "research" or high light "holes" in the current information available that should be pursed. The hypothesis testing answers only one question; i.e. Why is the sky blue. It provides no "proof"/ data as to why the sky is not green or purple, etc. Each of these is a separate question. Further it has even less to do with, say, why are there clouds in the sky? Both relate the sky but may or may not relate to each other. Where is this going? Waggle presents data from a study that looked at the quantifiable differences between several types of bees. What is the question these researchers asked? I would say it was; Is there any difference between different types of bees? They then proceed to provide some strong, compelling data to show that in fact there are significant differences based on size. Now Waggle comes along and states that small bees are more "efficient" than large bees and cites this study as the proof. He has made an assumption, on efficiently related to size, cited their data as "proof" and proceeds to present it as "fact". This paper would be an excellent reference to cite if he were planning to research which size is the more efficient but those author's never asked that question. Just because they didn't fly as far has no bearing on subject unless you compare energy expended to total resources gathered. It could be as simple as the fact they raised more brood and collected more pollen. What if pollen sources were sufficiently abundant that they didn't need to fly any further? That is one question that occurs to me that someone might want to address in further research. I have heard it said that the hallmark of "good" research is that raises more questions than it answers. Lusby is a well read and obliviously an intelligent, deep thinker with good skills as an observer, but if one reads her published writings you can not avoid the conclusion that she is presenting "one-sided" reviews, accentuating points that support her conclusions while ignoring points that fail to support her viewpoint, She proceeds to draw unwarranted assumptions and then proceeds to present them as "fact" and inferring that these "facts", being presented, are based on "research". She appears to have an agenda, small cell fits that agenda, and it prevents her from being an impartial reviewer, let alone an unbiased researcher, prepared to follow the total picture where ever or in which ever direction it leads. The "flaw" in it all is the same the one Waggle makes only on a grander scale. They get to (step 2) and then, in effect, proceed to jump to (step 6). This is long, windy and repetitive but I have always been impressed by the story Innes recounts in one of his books regarding the famous preacher who was asked the secret of his success. "First I tell them what I am going to tell them, then I tell them and then I tell them what I just told them." May the archivist forgive me. Unlike " ... 'cause never........... Sir Galahad" ... , at least I got the words right this time around Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:59:11 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] In-Reply-To: <20051018.080819.709.192854@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar > Perhaps the managed bees in the US are larger than in the UK. > Larger bees potentially might be more inclined to produce > smaller-cell natural comb. I can see what you are getting at, but I think average bee size in USA is smaller than UK, for two main reasons... Most US bees have a very low percentage of AMM genes and all other races have smaller bodies. Secondly the majority of foundation supplied in UK over the last fifty years has been 5.45 mm or larger. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:46:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Perhaps Dennis can say whether he put regressed bees in his TBHs! I > thought his were unregressed bees. Is there a concise definition of "regressed bees"? And , if such a definition involves forcing bees to build on small cell foundation, how can TBH bees be "regressed" or "regressed"? Or is "regressed" a permanent state? Huh? > I have very dark comb from a tree colony that I removed back in June but > at this point I can't be sure of its location within the nest. I'll > measure it out of curiosity as well. When measuing comb, we must remember that comb that is old tends to shrink, especially if dried out or exposed to heat. allen The human mind treats a new idea the same way the body treats a strange protein; it rejects it. -- P. B. Medawar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:10:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Where's the proof MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So, brood area and foraging patterns are not reliable measures of > efficiency to my mind. There have to be other measures, and if the > house is depending on it, to echo Trevors statement, it is honey in > the tank that matters. Whatever the activity of these bees was about, > it certainly was not efficiency in an economic sense. Amen to that. As I said here before, years back, I had a strain of bees that were raised locally and were wonderful in every respect, except the one that counts. We carried them a few years and declared them "welfare bees". (And I was not referring to my welfare). >From there, we went to a commercial Italian strain, and started making money again. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:18:37 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dave, >>I think average bee size in USA is smaller than UK... a very low percentage of AMM genes and all other races have smaller bodies. I did not realize AMM were larger than Italians, Carniolans, or Caucasians. If I recall right, Caucasians are the smallest with the longest tongues allowing them to take interest in red clover... Since different races show different preferences/tendencies in many areas, perhaps they adapt different cell sizes... Instead of focusing on the 'right' or 'natural' cell width, the cell diameter should be described as a fraction of the average bee body envolope for each race? Moreover, as Dennis Murrell has shown, there is no such thing as a single cell size in any naturally drawn out nest. >>Secondly the majority of foundation supplied in UK over the last fifty years has been 5.45 mm or larger. I see. Do you have any feral AMM populations of in remote natural reserves etc. perhaps? It would be most interesting to measure their cell sizing. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:42:09 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Is there a concise definition of "regressed bees"? Sorry, Allen. I guess I am guilty again of using terms that show up on Bee-L but are not in frequent use here or elsewhere. Mea culpa. :) >>if such a definition involves forcing bees to build on small cell foundation This is my understanding of the term as it's been used here. >>how can TBH bees be "regressed" or "regressed"? As I understand it, Dennis experimented with 4.9 mm foundation prior to building his TBHs. The question was whether he placed bees from his 4.9 mm hives in TBHs. I believe not. Dennis - if you are reading this - please help me out! :) >>Or is "regressed" a permanent state? Huh? Evidently not in managed colonies since bees can be forced onto smaller or larger foundation. It's a little bit of an open question as what happens in nature. Dennis' observations indicate a cell size gradation in naturally drawn comb. There is no 'one size fits all.' It makes sense to me since I have seen it in feral nests. We dispute/talk about the mean cell sizes, ranges of cell sizes etc. though. :) >>When measuing comb, we must remember that comb that is old tends to shrink, especially if dried out or exposed to heat. The comb I have was covered by bees as recently as 3 days ago and I've kept it my garage at about 50-60 F. To rule out this factor, I can pull out of the hive the feral comb with brood that's still covered with bees. >>The human mind treats a new idea the same way the body treats a strange protein; it rejects it. -- P. B. Medawar I think this is too simplistic. ;o) Not every human mind and not every body... ;-) Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:48:08 +0100 Reply-To: pencaemawr@ntlworld.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pencaemawr Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? revisited In-Reply-To: <20051018.120529.-79089.3.beerip@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rip Bechmann wrote: > (step 2) Gather as many observations regarding the sky, blue, etc. as > possible, negative as well as positive, and develop a hypothesis had fits > those observations. > > (step 3) You would then design a test to evaluate the validity of the > hypothesis. > not so; you should design a test to disprove the hypothesis. If you can't disprove it, then you have a good working hypothesis. As you point out later, "Keeping in mind that nothing is ever proven, only disproven." > (step 4) You would determine if the hypothesis is valid > A hypothesis is only "valid" until is is disproven. John Burgess -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:38:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Allen > Is there a concise definition of "regressed bees"? > I am sure that you and many do not need to have anyone explain the = definition of regress or regression but you did ask for a concise = definition of "regressed bees". I will try to explain it as I see it. = Others may see it quit different. First the definition of regress as it may apply. regress; returning to a former state, go back to a previous state, or The act of = passing back; passage back; return; retrogression Regression as it may apply. regression; returning to a former state or The act of passing back or returning As the definition of these two words imply and taking note that bees = were altered in size (bigger) by mechanical means (using different cell = sizes), with genetics, and possibly fed artificial feeds (Sugar syrups = and pollen substitutes), to regress bees is to have them use a smaller = worker comb size to produce brood, breed a bee for local conditions and = cell size preferred, and allow the bees to feed on stores they = themselves brought in by naturally foraging plants and flowers. To = regress bees is to retrogress bees to their natural normal state before = beekeepers altered their state. This is only my interpretation of "regress bees". > if such a definition involves forcing bees to build on small cell > foundation Bees can be allowed to build comb as they see fit. > how can TBH bees be "regressed" > By letting the bees draw comb as they see fit. > is "regressed" a permanent state? Huh? > No, beekeepers can alter them back to the altered state again as was = done in the past and is still being done today. Even I am trying to alter my line of bee to better withstand the = conditions I keep bees in, which of course is my local conditions.=20 . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:50:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Welfare Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Allen, > I had a strain of bees that were raised > locally and were wonderful in every respect, except the one that = counts. We > carried them a few years and declared them "welfare bees". > Did you resort to feeding these type bees or did you let them prove = themselves for local conditions by allowing them to feed themselves. I = feel if to develop a bee to survive local conditions and provide the = beekeeper a crop a beekeeper can not enable poor genetics by feeding = sugar syrup to them. Can not identify the best stock for local = conditions if feeding them. Nothing wrong with feeding colonies to = survive but these colonies need to be separated from selected breeding = stock so genetics is not polluted. In turn the stock that needed feeding = should be requeened with the selected stock. Not knowing how you fed, treated, managed or bred these bees, I would = think you could have selected for a bee that survived well and still = would put honey on your table top for sales. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:01:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Is there a concise definition of "regressed bees"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> Is there a concise definition of "regressed bees"? > > Sorry, Allen. I guess I am guilty again of using terms that show up on > Bee-L but are not in frequent use here or elsewhere Well, the term has been bandied about a lot, but, AFAIK, it has no clear definition or well -understood meaning. Many of us tolerate its use for sake of discussion, hoping to get a handle on it, but find it rather vague and magical. It's sorta a "You know what I mean", kinda thing. You know? You take some bees and shake them onto small cell foundation, and, if they draw it out, they are regressed? Or Not? Dunno? Where does the process begin? Where does it end? Is it permanent? If so, what is the mechanism? Genetic selection? Nutrition? Learning? An unknown effect? Magic? Are there any controlled studies on the topic? We've attempted in the past (years ago?) tried to get an understanding of it here on BEE-L, but never did, so we let it go by, but not without an occasional questioning to remind everyone that the term has no real status, here, at least -- and among the scientific community AFAIK, but we are listening... allen People who have no weaknesses are terrible; there is no way of taking advantage of them. -- Anatole France, The Crime of Sylvestre Bonnard -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:23:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Is there a concise definition of "regressed bees"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I found it pretty easy to get a handle on what was meant by regressed bees. In my mind it's kind of link bound feet, only the bondage for the bees requires many generations. You start with the natural abomination of artificially enlarged bees and shake them down onto smaller foundation. (You bind the bees once). When the bees become aclimated to their new smaller cell environment (ie, the bound bees become smaller), then you shake them down again onto even smaller foundation (you bind them again). When the bees become aclimated to their newer, even smaller cell environment (ie, the bound bees become smaller yet again), then you shake them down again onto even smaller foundation (you bind them again). Rinse, lather, repeat. Eventually you wind up with 4.9mm foundation and bees with really small feet and smooth silky hair. Then your bees are regressed. OK, leave out the small feet and silky hair, but the repeated shake down onto ever smaller foundation, "regresses" your bees to the once natural smaller bees comfortable in their once natural 4.9mm cell size. My recollection is there are 3 shake downs required to get from here to there. I lost or forgot how the starting point unnatural large queen gets to a queen that is comfortable on the 4.9mm cells, I'm not sure if requeen is required every step of the way, or if the smaller bees raise smaller queens, but I have come to understand the process (shake down on to smaller foundation until you reach the promised land) to be the regression, and the bees that live in the promised land are regressed bees. I do not mean this to be tongue in cheek, although it was written that way, but bees that have gone through the process are "regressed" and my understanding is that once regressed the bees stay regressed as long as they are kept in a "regressed" environment (small cell). I think the jury is still out on what happens when kept regressed bees become feral (or as Allen asked, "Do they stay regressed?"). Archives abound with the discussion, and have been more than replenished the past few days, and I am sure plenty will follow. I've heard a lot of blah, blah, blah lately, and still don't know if small cell is the promised land (perhaps it's time we ALL go see Dee's bees?), nor am I any closer to knowing if or what would have to done to prove it so, but I am swayed more towards a belief that sometings going on if onle we/she/they could get a handle on this multi-variant equations. My statistics background tells me it's not a solveable puzzle. Too many variables, too few equations. Aaron Morris - thinking the X Files; The truth is out there! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:28:12 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Is there a concise definition of "regressed bees"? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>People who have no weaknesses are terrible; there is no way of taking advantage of them. Everyone and everything has a weakness. A Japanese commander (admiral?) in the movie Pearl Harbor said something like: 'it takes a smart man to find a way to strike his enemy where he feels the safest...' I hope we find ways to to strike the blood-sucking, virus-vectoring varroa mite where it feels the safest - in a capped cell. :) I know folks will say formic acid kills varroa mites in capped cells [it the temp is right] but, say, anyone know where we stand with varroa-killing fungi at the present? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:36:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Regressed Bees You wrote: bees were altered in size (bigger) by mechanical means (using different cell sizes), with genetics, and possibly fed artificial feeds (Sugar syrups and pollen substitutes) So far as I know, nobody has ever proven that this has taken place anywhere. Sure, workers can be somewhat enlarged just as tiny drones can be raised in worker comb. But would be for that one generation only. Environmental effects cannot be directly inherited. (Remember Lamark?) Isis Glass -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:56:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Welfare Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> ...and declared them "welfare bees". > > Did you resort to feeding these type bees or did you let them prove > themselves for local conditions by allowing them to feed themselves. We were pretty well doing let-alone beekeeping in those years. As I recall, we did feed if we took too much honey, a dearth developed, and they were in danger of starving. > I feel if to develop a bee to survive local conditions and provide the > beekeeper a crop a beekeeper can not enable poor genetics by feeding sugar > syrup to them. How do you "enable poor genetics by feeding sugar syrup to them"? Is there some sort of genetic trigger that is set off by a bag of sugar? > Can not identify the best stock for local conditions if feeding them. If "local conditions" include regular feedings, not feeding would be illogical -- IMO. > Nothing wrong with feeding colonies to survive but these colonies need to > be separated from selected breeding stock so genetics is not polluted. In > turn the stock that needed feeding should be requeened with the selected > stock. Maybe for an idealistic hobbyist living in a perfect world, but not in my world, and not with my banker. > Not knowing how you fed, treated, managed or bred these bees, I would > think you could have selected for a bee that survived well and still would > put honey on your table top for sales. Of course I could have, and did at one point later, with better foundation stock, but that was not the point I was making. Actually I bought the stock in question, then replaced it after it was not making me money and, frankly, breeding from it would have been a waste of time. To get a good result, it is best to start with good materials. allen Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. -- Samuel Johnson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:40:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am sure that you and many do not need to have anyone explain the > definition of regress or regression but you did ask for a concise > definition of "regressed bees". There is the problem. When people anything does not need to be defined because we know what it is, I am pretty sure we don't. > I will try to explain it as I see it. Others may see it quit different. That is even less reassuring. > regress; returning to a former state, go back to a previous state, or The > act of passing back; passage back; return; retrogression > regression; returning to a former state or The act of passing back or > returning > > ... taking note that bees were altered in size (bigger) by mechanical > means (using different cell sizes) A temporary phenotypic effect, I should think? > ...with genetics Selection? > ...and possibly fed artificial feeds (Sugar syrups and pollen substitutes) A temporary phenotypic effect, I should think? > ...to regress bees is to have them use a smaller worker comb size to > produce brood, That assumes that that, in the "former condition", bees were on a "smaller worker comb size". For most of history, and in many places, they were on natural comb. To truly regress thus, we should not use foundation, I should think. Or was there a golden age of beekeeping during the few years that EHB were kept on smaller foundations that is our ideal state? > breed a bee for local conditions If there were no natural bees in that region, and all honey bees are imports, how to we then regress? To nothing? No bees? > and cell size preferred Given a choice bees generally prefer to build *beside* the foundation, not on it, and a variiety of sizes and shapes, all on the same comb. > and allow the bees to feed on stores they themselves brought in by > naturally foraging plants and flowers. Okay. I think we all do that, so that point is moot. > To regress bees is to retrogress bees to their natural normal state before > beekeepers altered their state. Okay, so how does more breeding, more manipulating, more transporting, and providing different man-made hives with restrictive foundation come into this? >> is "regressed" a permanent state? Huh? > > No, beekeepers can alter them back to the altered state again as was done > in the past and is still being done today. So, what is the term for that? -- "progressed" bees? > Even I am trying to alter my line of bee to better withstand the > conditions I keep bees in, which of course is my local conditions. How can they regress to their natural state with you getting in the way of their natural process and introducing your prejudices? (I'm assuming you must have some, since we all do). allen It took me fifteen years to discover that I had no talent for writing, but I couldn't give it up because by that time I was too famous. -- Robert Benchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:09:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Regression retention in succeeding generations In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE09210142E0AF@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Would you be able to determine the continuance of the regression if you moved the "regressed" bees to an isolated a yard as possible and onto top bar hives with just the top bars and a line of wax from which to draw the comb? You could then raise queens in this environment and open mate in that area in the hopes that most of the drones would also be regressed then move those queens into new top bar hives with just the top bars and an open live of wax from which to draw the new comb. After several generations of this might one determine whether or not the bees would stay regressed? Mike Aaron Morris wrote: I think the jury is still out on what happens when kept regressed bees become feral (or as Allen asked, "Do they stay regressed?"). --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:24:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Isis, > So far as I know, nobody has ever proven that this has taken place = anywhere. >=20 It is explained in some antique books. > Environmental effects cannot be directly inherited.=20 > Unless the affect of the effect is selected and breed for which has been = done for comb building, bee size, varroa tolerance, and local = conditions, etc. > (Remember Lamark?) > A much misunderstood individual and one of the distant past. The affects = of enlarged bees is more contemporary. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:12:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Is there a concise definition of "regressed bees"? In-Reply-To: <20051018.132857.6511.3741@webmail44.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: I know folks will say formic acid kills varroa mites in capped cells [it the temp is right] but, say, anyone know where we stand with varroa-killing fungi at the present? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- Heard mention of the fungus last year at Alabama's spring state meeting but have not heard anything else about it since. The advocate mentioned that the company developing the fungus was hopeful of national distribution this fall. Ain't heard nothin' 'bout it since. Mike in Alabama --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:29:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Until then, NEW evidence shows that there is no such thing as SMR > honeybees. > http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/Publications.htm?seq_no_115=178712 Well, I think the article you cited does not actually confirm your assertions. What it seems to show is that the effect that they were looking for, and calling SMR was, in fact, mostly or entirely an hygienic effect and may not exist. BUT the SMR bees still exist, and have been incorporated into other lines, and they *are* different from Spivak's HYG bees. The latter reportedly cannot suppress varroa very well, but the SMR bees do suppress mite reproduction quite well -- just not the way the researchers initially thought. allen I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones. -- John Cage -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:24:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TBH Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/10/2005 05:02:37 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: Would the bees tend to propolize the angles where the side corners of the bars meet? I took a bar out of my TBH and eased the rest a smidgeon apart to take up the slack. A couple of weeks later I was able to take a small harvest of fresh propolis. The angles Robin proposes might be a good way of getting it as well. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:55:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Where's the proof? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 18/10/2005 05:02:37 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: Bees have "flower fidelity." > That is, they stay with whatever they have a working > relationship with. A new source may be ignored until > the old one dries up. Dick, Intresting! I'm not doubting you, but has any one else on the list observed this behavior? I once watched a bees visit 14 dandelion 'clocks' in succession, obviously getting nothing from any of them. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:01:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Burgess is quite correct in the points he raises, not to rationalize but I did say; "For example, in a quick and dirty example which is a gross over simplification;" Obviously the wording I used left something to be desired and I appreciate the clarification of a very important concept where I tripped over my tongue. Thank you, Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:45:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <01c201c5d42b$19a56880$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- allen dick wrote: http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/Publications.htm?seq_no_115=178712 > > Well, I think the article you cited does not > actually confirm your > assertions. Yes it does. The SMR (suppression of mite reproduction) was named because it was thought the bees increased the infertility of mites. This was show to not be the case, therefore "SMR" dose does not exist! This varroa specific hygienic behavior needs a new name as SMR does not fit here now. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:07:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Regressed Bees > So far as I know, nobody has ever proven that this has taken place anywhere. >> It is explained in some antique books. Right. But that certainly doesn't constitute proof, now, does it? Look, I understand that varroa may have greater difficulty reproducing in small cells than in large. That's probably why they prefer drone cells. But, the whole idea that bees "used to be smaller" has not been proven. You can say: putting bees on smaller cells reduces varroa, fine. But then to say it is because the were smaller, that simply doesn't follow. You can prove smaller cells reduces varroa, but why is this so? Maybe because there's less room, period. Furthermore, following the example of the bound feet, generations of women had their feet bound, and nobody was born with smaller feet as a result. As far as people breeding for larger bees, I don't think that has taken place. Why would somebody breed a bigger bee, when all you have to do is put them on bigger comb? Bees have been selected for about a hundred and fifty years, and mainly for color, honey production, and tractability. Some selection has been done for disease resistance. But how much have bees really changed as a result? Well, you can get really yellow ones, but honey production is hardly better than 100 years ago, probably worse. They seem MORE susceptible to disease, but that could be due to the stresses placed on them by commercial beekeepers and pesticides in the environment. Breeding a particular trait in bees is not that easy, due to the fact of open mating and the way traits are passed (briefly, it's not like breeding sweet peas where you can see results right away) Isis Glass -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:29:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes it does. The SMR (suppression of mite reproduction) was named because > it was thought the bees increased the infertility of mites. This was show > to not be the case... Well, tearing out busy mother mites every time they get to work supresses mite reproduction (SMR) just fine, so what's the problem? The mechanism is not what was expected, machanical, not chemical, but the effect is the same: Mite Reproduction is Suppressed (SMR). > therefore "SMR" dose does not exist! I thought the arguement was that SMR bees do not exist. That is FALSE. I can order you some SMR bees today, if you have some cash, that is. > This varroa specific hygienic behavior needs a new name as SMR does not > fit here. Maybe, maybe not, but that is just playing with words. SMR bees (and Dee's bees) are supressing mite reproduction as we speak, no matter what one wishes to name the effect, but they don't care what we call them, so let's give it a whirl: How about "TBMMOBTDCMBLTHEN-RMA"? (Tearing Busy Mother Mites Out Before the Daughters Can Mature, But Leaving The Non-Reproducing Mites Alone). Nah! Call me old-fashioned, but I like "SMR" better. It has a nice ring, and we all know what it means. And we can buy them. allen A thinker sees his own actions as experiments and questions--as attempts to find out something. Success and failure are for him answers above all. -- Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science, section 41 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:46:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the proof In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Murray McGregor wrote: > One colony was collecting urine coloured honey ...it was > apparent that it was Lime (Linden or Basswood for > those where those names are current). I have Lime here, very few not enough for a surplus, maybe less than a couple dozen lime trees in my foraging area. The color honey you describe is how I would discribe my Black Locust honey. > Also FWIW. I had some of the Elgon derived stock > here to test. Elong bees, name originating or derived from Mt. Elong? Are they the same bee as sometimes I hear being called monticola? Yes, I've seen these brood patterns from these bees on photos by Erik I believe, very nice indeed, brood in the entire frame even in the corners! ...echo Trevors statement, it is > honey in the tank > that matters. Whatever the activity of these bees > was about, it > certainly was not efficiency in an economic sense. Yes, Trev and yourself are very correct. > First time I have chipped in for a long time, Nice to hear from you again Murray! Keep on chipping, I value the beekeeping perspective. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:55:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This was show to not be the case, therefore "SMR" does not exist! This > varroa specific hygienic behavior needs a new name as SMR does not fit > here now. I guess what is lost in this is the whole question of PMIB and if it is as important and heritable as Tom Rinderer was saying. PMIB was at the top of their list. If SMR is not what they thought, and the mnechanism was not what they thought, then where does that leave PMIB? (or is it P-MIB)? For the record, I count John's SMR work as a huge success, and really good work. It hit paydirt, even though he was proven wrong in some details. That's how it goes. allen Imagination and fiction make up more than three quarters of our real life -- Simone Weil -- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:42:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Russian questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike, My friend Mike and I email back and forth and this email perhaps should be perhaps best direct because some on the list will say "hey wait a minute what you are saying is not what the researchers and queen breeders advocate". As my friend Rip says I am not bound by an agenda so only sharing a *small part* of my methods. maybe my two beekeeper joke reminded me I better share a bit of my knowledge as none of us know when we might be called home. > These Russians that you have had for four years, have you requeened? Some queens have still got the yellow queen mark. Others have been superceded and given the color mark for the year I saw they had been superceded. With the Russian supercedure hybrid each has less varroa tolerance and carries in most cases a higher varroa load but even those with a high varroa load seem able to avoid PMS. When evaluating a line I start with a large number and simply remove queenless colonies. Shake out the bees and take the equipment. I do the same with all my bees. I never mess with requeening a colony in the field. I do at times install a nuc in a queenless hive in production yards but not hives under evaluation. I do observe all aspects of their behavior. Make detailed notes and monitor mite loads (both varroa & tracheal). What was your source of Russians initially and with requeening if you did do that? I do not requeen hives under evaluation. I make all hives up exactly the same with the same amount of brood, pollen and sealed honey. When one gets fed the whole yard gets fed. You get a clear picture of a queen breeder/queen producers bees when you install 50-100 at a time. I want the yard to be exactly alike. They all need a super at the same time. etc. I don't mix lines from different queen breeders. I usually start with 100 queens of a line and place in four yards. The first year Russians are now in two yards four years later. Some Russian sources Glenn Apiaires Strachan Apiaries Olivarez Honey Bees Purvis Brothers Apiairies I keep lines in different yards. I keep All Russian lines in seperate yards. The Purvis Gold & Purvis Blue lines are in seperate yards. I do keep commercial production yards with mixed queen lines from about four different queen producers. All the Australian queens are in a seperate yard. However hives in the general population do come together in winter holding yards when all drones have been kicked out. When placed back in yards they go back in yards by queen breeder lines. I adjust the hives on pallets but keep the lines seperate. All but recent supercedure queens are marked. Swarms are always taken to remote production yards. All but experimental colonies will be moved into a large holding yard after the first killing freeze this fall and drones evicted. Easier to care for an available for pollination if needed. The bees are currently bringing in aster & goldenrod pollen. I like for the bees to gather as much as possible without compettion from a large number of hives. > I am trying to repopulate my county with beekeepers via classes each fall and would like to promote Russians and/or SMR's with my students. Some of the Pure Russian/Russian lines are aggressive. When crossed about one in twenty is aggressive from my observations. I mark in red aggressive hives and also mark possible breeder colonies when evaluating. I am about done testing the Russian bee and may drop the Russian production hives for commercial beekeeping reasons. I dropped the SMR breeder queens because the F1 hybrids had poor brood viability. I would recommend a NWC/Russian hybrid for the Russian bee. and introducing SMR into your hives with a SMR F1 hybrid instead of a direct daughter of a Glenn Apiaries breeder queen. We have had SMR II breeder queens of both the yellow & red lines. All the direct open mated daughter queens had poor brood viability. However those F1 can be grafted from and the daughters open mated and the good brood viability is back to normal to almost normal or those hives can be used as a SMR drone source. . My yards for the most part run in a cross pattern with my home yard in the center for up to 25 miles. Drone source colonies from half a mile to two miles in all four directions. Strictly production hives are at the outside of the cross as I do not want their drones for the most part. Moving hives is the easiest beekeeping operation I do. A single person job. I at times dream about beekeeping at night. I am always thinking about my beekeeping. Always trying new ways of keeping bees! By contrast I got two calls from hobby beekeepers tonight which have not pulled their supers, hives are starving and have not yet checked mites loads or treated. My hives are all ready for winter! Honey all extracted and stored away. I guess I will go clean in the building tomorrow while waiting for the first killing frost so I can move the hives into the holding yard. My partner says he has six yards left to feed and then he is done except for the moving into holding yards . He finished his extracting a day before me but I finished my wintering a day before he did. Now we are thinking California! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:09:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Regressed Bees In-Reply-To: <200510182036.j9IJTWSr029313@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: So far as I know, nobody has ever proven that this has taken place anywhere.Sure, workers can be somewhat enlarged just as tiny drones can be raised in worker comb. But would be for that one generation only. Environmental effects cannot be directly inherited. (Remember Lamark?) Reply: Let's say remember Prof Baudoux of Belgium and some of his best writings of 1933 and 1934 in Bee World. Also the Paris Convention of the 1930s. From here the movement to bigger really got rolling along with selection emphasis for large queens and bees, to the detriment of the smaller ones in the natural spectrum small, medium, and large breakout of animals. Besides the topic is easy to find in libraries. Just go to the three main sources: Bee World, Dadant (ABJ), and Gleanings in Bee Culture, and look up the main indexes for comb cell size, especially from the period 1891 thru WW2. Also include by the way Apimondia and the XX International Beekeeping Jubilee Congress of 1965 in Bucharest which brought everyone up to date IMPOV following research getting back up to speed following WW2 and so much written about Bigger is Better!! Thinking newer beekeepers should read a little of past history to know what is happening today. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:09:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Amateur Replicate-able Experiment Trials Comments: cc: John Edwards , "Justin O. Schmidt" , phwells@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <20051017132917.56633.qmail@web51513.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow, all those comments on amateur experiments have provided a really interesting set of exchanges! Aren't you glad that extracting season is over and that you all have a better opportunity to sound off? Mike Rossander's assessment differed from the following two comments posted by John Edwards (though he liked the others): >> Second, somehow, insulate yourself from outside and/or vested >> interests by walling yourself off (financially) in an independently >> funded or gov't. organization. >> Third, divest yourself of any financial links to industry. John's comments represent an ideal. After a couple of episodes of attempted arm twisting when consulting for industry, I avoided such entanglements thereafter and thus agree with John. Bill Trusdell wrote: "I think the greatest chance of a flaw is when the researcher is responsible for creating a computer model and then uses it to find results. It is nearly impossible not to inject bias into the model to arrive at the desired result. Since we are flawed, the more we inject ourselves into the experiment, the greater the potential error." Very good! Put another way: perhaps one of the greatest problem with experiments occurs when researchers try to gather evidence in support of their belief system and then ignore existing evidence counter to those beliefs. Consider what happens when a friend travels to a gambling casino. If that friend wins big, you will surely hear about it! However, if that friend loses, you will likely hear nothing. To hear winners talk, one would think casinos are out there to give away money. An amateur researcher may conduct an experiment and gain some "supportive" results. You will surely learn of those results. But what if the results don't come out so good? You will likely hear nothing! All of this relates, of course, to exchanges on BEE-L about food grade mineral oil, small cell size, oxalic and formic acids, etc. At the end of August, I was the keynote speaker ("Odor and honey bee exploitation of food crops") at the Third European Congress on Social Insects and also gave a talk in a symposium at that Congress: ("Can European honey bees coexist with varroa mites"). In that symposium talk I provided an overview of the varroa mite problem and the various attempts to survive that onslaught. Others gave valuable input, especially Ingemar Fries of Sweden. Malcolm Sanford attended that Congress and has chronicled what transpired there for publication in upcoming American Bee Journal issues. In that varroa symposium, we had quite a spirited exchange about varroa mite treatments. For instance, a given experiment may have yielded some "good" results but many more "bad" results that you will hear nothing about. (I can provide very specific examples of this selection of results by "establishment" scientists, as they attempt to prove their point.) To compliment John Edwards" list, may I emphasize the following: 1) John wrote: "Any research which starts out to prove a pet hypothesis has already prostituted itself, and is only anecdotal." My thought: Experiments should be sincere attempts to disprove prevailing hypotheses. The use of blind and double-blind experimental designs helps control against bias, but the use of those designs seem sadly lacking in bee research experiments. 2) No one should embrace conclusions until quite disinterested persons have replicated said experiments, provided all the evidence obtained, and obtained the same results. My thought: We continue to see examples of scientists (maybe especially scientists) who label experiments as "conclusive" or "elegant" even before those experiments have been replicated by others. However, mere replication is not always sufficient. If proper controls have not been incorporated into the original experimental designs, replication just confuses the issue and compounds error. As Cal Lindegren wrote in 1966, "The flaws of a theory never lead to its rejection. ... Scientists tolerate theories that can easily be demonstrated to be inadequate." A recent and highly publicized experiment dealt with "radar tracking" of bees. We can ask: How many experiments were run compared to how many results were published? Did they run the experiment blind (or double blind)? Were they eager for a particular set of results? The experimenters made questionable assumptions, obtained correlations with small sample sizes, and concluded that they had direct evidence for the hypothesis they were trying to prove. However, they did not cite papers that contained much evidence counter to their conclusions. For a more comprehensive treatment of objections to the radar tracking experiment, one can access: www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/radar.htm Adrian "For what a man more likes to be true, he more readily believes." Francis Bacon (1561-1626) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:40:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Regressed Bees In-Reply-To: <200510190107.j9J0GIXp016132@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: You can say: putting bees on smaller cells reduces varroa, fine. But then to say it is because the were smaller, that simply doesn't follow. You can prove smaller cells reduces varroa, but why is this so? Maybe because there's less room, period. Reply: JGH is one reason; the size of the puddle of royal jelly is another (like number of frogs in a pond/puddle);the heat generated in the broodnest and placement of cell is another, aka, drones on perifery, workerbrood more dense in center, so so higher heat here and the mites in preference go for the bigger slightly cooler drones.Also, with smaller cell and number of cells being more for area of density you have more division of labor for more workers for housecleaning - like chewing out the infested cells. Also smaller breeds faster and faster means less mites reaching maturity. Here is the a good part of program we have followed by the way and not deviated from in concept for two regressions down (one in 1980s and second for fine tuning starting in 1997): http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/apiacta1992.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/apiacta1995.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/abjnov1989.htm The above just involve field management with small cell and breeding. If looking up where the fig. are underlined in text hit with cursor and charts/grafts will come up. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:12:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Is there a concise definition of "regressed bees"? In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE09210142E0AF@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron writes: My recollection is there are 3 shake downs required to get from here to there. Reply: For each regression of comb down there is normally a size jump of only .2mm average (some smaller and some larger) Aaron continues: I lost or forgot how the starting point unnatural large queen gets to a queen that is comfortable on the 4.9mm cells, I'm not sure if requeen is required every step of the way, or if the smaller bees raise smaller queens, Reply: A shift of the queen is necessary for each step down with a queen born in the new size, just like when upsizing was done to lock in the steps upward. Aaron continues: but I have come to understand the process (shake down on to smaller foundation until you reach the promised land) to be the regression, and the bees that live in the promised land are regressed bees. Reply: The bees are regressed size wise, but not retrogressed breeding wise as in either progressive or retrogressive breeding for straightr bioloigcal meaning, but this is confusing and most simply after 10 plus years just look at the whole process as regressing down anymore.Though geeks will break it out in deep debate on visits. Aaron writes: my understanding is that once regressed the bees stay regressed as long as they are kept in a "regressed" environment (small cell). I think the jury is still out on what happens when kept regressed bees become feral Reply: Depending upon the sphere of influence, like when going bigger for mating control, development of spheres of influence, and/or nearness to areas of remotness (with more feral bees, like national parks), work in sync with the now regressed down bees. Also like going bigger, the bigger the pool of hives used and area covered mean control of mating, though it has been written that small and large have different mating patterns nowadays (for so great did the difference become! and Dr Taylor did the writing here by the way which is interesting in itself if one paints a whole picture.). So area dominance plays a key roll and in the USA and EU domestic bees kept have certainly dominated IMPOV to the detriment of natural occuring honeybees. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:54:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dee, > Thinking newer beekeepers should read a little of past > history to know what is happening today. >=20 =20 Yes Dee, it would help in conversing with about this subject. I myself = never stepped into using small cell or talked much about it until I = studied up on it and past history of beekeeping and the alteration of = the bee. Even Jay Smith talks a little about breeding for bigger in his = book "Better Queens". For those that do not know of Jay Smith he was a = renowned queen breeder and producer and Author of several Queen rearing = books. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:16:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Regressed Bees Isis writes: So far as I know, nobody has ever proven that this has *ever* taken place anywhere. Lusby: Let's say remember Prof Baudoux of Belgium and some of his best writings of 1933 and 1934 in Bee World. Also the Paris Convention of the 1930s. ?? This hardly constitutes proof of anything. De Jong writes: Africanized honey bees (Apis mellifera, Hymenoptera: Apidae) in Brazil are tolerant of infestations with the exotic ectoparasitic mite, Varroa destructor (Mesostigmata: Varroidae), while the European honey bees used in apiculture throughout most of the world are severely affected. Africanized honey bees are normally kept in hives with both naturally built small width brood cells and with brood cells made from European-sized foundation, yet we know that comb cell size has an effect on varroa reproductive behavior. As varroa is more prevalent in the larger European-sized brood cells than in the naturally built Africanized worker brood cells, the use of unnaturally large comb cell size should be re-examined in the light of its effect on parasite levels. Varroa's preference for larger comb cells could be a contributing factor to the 60% higher infestation rates of adult bees that was found in apiary colonies, which contain both Italian- and Africanized-sized comb, compared to feral Africanized colonies, with only natural-sized Africanized comb, examined in the same region in Brazil. see: The influence of brood comb cell size on the reproductive behavior of the ectoparasitic mite Varroa destructor in Africanized honey bee colonies http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm * * * Lusby: Thinking newer beekeepers should read a little of past history to know what is happening today. ?? You don't know whether I am a "new beekeeper" or not. Isis Glass -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:19:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Where's the proof In-Reply-To: <20051019014628.68627.qmail@web34308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <20051019014628.68627.qmail@web34308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, J. Waggle writes >I have Lime here, very few not enough for a surplus, >maybe less than a couple dozen lime trees in my >foraging area. The color honey you describe is how I >would discribe my Black Locust honey. Our native Lime is Tilia cordata, the Small-leaved lime. Its honey is this strange colour, but nice in a jar, only in the thinner environment of a comb does it show the colour described. On the other hand we have two groups of hives near the perimeter of the campus of Heriot-Watt University outside Edinburgh. In there are several groves of ornamental Limes, supposedly an American species, but quite which one I don't know (and it is not really important) and almost every summer these bees hit pay dirt of these groves. Classic Lime smell and taste, hives stink when ripening it. Yet the colour is near to water white. Different species, different characteristics. Got three drums of the special stuff set aside at a big price for a customer wanting specialities. Black Locust is Robinia pseudacacia? I think so anyway. In Europe/China this is called Acacia and produces a very pale non crystallising honey of very high quality and lovely delicate fruity flavour (the Chinese aint so good). Darker samples are usually attributed to mixed forage and are often traded as 'acacia type polyflora'. >Elong bees, name originating or derived from Mt. >Elong? Are they the same bee as sometimes I hear >being called monticola? >Yes, I've seen these brood patterns from these bees on >photos by Erik I believe, very nice indeed, brood in >the entire frame even in the corners! It is Mt. Elgon..........and the rest is right. Erik saw my post and has come back to me in private on the subject. In a rush this morning, have a truck load of honey going south today so need to get going. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 04:35:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <007201c5d450$2e175380$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- allen dick wrote: > For the record, I count John's SMR work as a huge > success, and really good > work. It seems like your are attempting to elude that someone that questions is doing something wrong or insulting. I don't think any questioning of any one's findings should be taken personally!!!! For the record, I respect Johns work also. But I'm positive that John would not like for all to fall down prostrating with acceptance any of his work without questioning. When discoveries are made, they should never be allowed to remain unscrutinized. That Spivak was able to make the discovery that explained SMR as hygienic behavior is a perfect example to why we should never accept. I did not have success in small cell by accepting anything, it all came after much debate and home trials. I really don't care how respected in the beekeeping community someone is, if I have a question I will ask it, if I have doubt, I will express it. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:36:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Regressed Bees Comments: To: Keith Malone De Jong writes in 2003: Although the mite Varroa destructor is widely recognized as the most important problem for apiculture throughout the world (De Jong, 1997), little is known about why it is lethal for colonies throughout most of the world, requiring treatment with chemicals, while in other regions, such as Brazil and some other parts of tropical America, the bees are maintained without the need for treatment (Rosenkranz, 1999). This tolerance to mite infestation appears to be influenced by climate and bee race as honey bees in tropical America are normally little affected, and Africanized bees are more tolerant than European races of bees. A key factor, which appears to be correlated with the infestation levels in the colonies, is the fertility of the mites. Unfortunately, it is virtually impossible to objectively compare all of the various studies made on varroa reproduction, due to a lack of uniformity in the items analyzed and often because the methods are not fully explained. http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0032_full_text.htm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:46:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Welfare Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Allen, > we did feed if we took too much honey > Hind sight? > How do you "enable poor genetics by feeding sugar syrup to them"? > Somethings I will never be able to explain to some people, it is like a = drug that keeps sick people alive past their time. In the case of bees = if they can not bring it in to survive, in nature their genetics would = die off and not be there to pollute the pool. Hard huh. > Is there some sort of genetic trigger that is set off by a bag of = sugar? > Yes, a bad genetic trigger. > If "local conditions" include regular feedings, not feeding would be > illogical -- IMO. >=20 So is taking to much Honey, but if left enough and colonies managed with = dearth in mind the local condition would be dealt with better than = having to feed because of miss-management. I have a seven month dearth = up here but, without feeding at all I have seen the strongest colonies I = have ever seen winter to spring and make splits and honey the following = summer. Unlimited broodnest management deals with dearth. Hard again, = huh. > Maybe for an idealistic hobbyist living in a perfect world, but not in = my > world, and not with my banker. > The world is not perfect and I do not rely on bankers because bankers = are set up for the bank not me. But really this has absolutely nothing = to do with real beekeeping in the real world of keeping bees, breeding = bees and harvesting honey. Depending on a banker to dictate your = beekeeping, Huh. I am working with bees not bankers. Sorry. > Actually I bought the stock > in question, then replaced it after it was not making me money and, = frankly, > breeding from it would have been a waste of time. > Maybe, maybe not. They probably just needed care and work you or your = banker did not have the patience to deal with. > Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without > integrity is dangerous and dreadful. > -- Samuel Johnson > Statement worth analyzing. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:41:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Allen, > There is the problem. When people anything does not need to be = defined > because we know what it is, I am pretty sure we don't. >=20 It is easily understood when keeping with the definition of words. > > I will try to explain it as I see it. Others may see it quit = different. >=20 > That is even less reassuring. >=20 I am not trying to assure anyone of anything, neither am I trying to = confuse the matter. It is quit simple if you want it to be. > A temporary phenotypic effect, I should think? >=20 Which is easily fixed by regression. > > ...with genetics >=20 > Selection? >=20 Yes, bigger Queens, bigger bees, and bees that would draw = correspondently perfectly drawn bigger worker combs were selected for in = the past and still is by breeders. > > ...and possibly fed artificial feeds (Sugar syrups and pollen = substitutes) >=20 > A temporary phenotypic effect, I should think? >=20 Poor nutrition in my opinion will alter DNA just as proper nutrition can = repair DNA. So yes it can be temporary but only by God given nutrition = and not man made artificial feeds. > > and allow the bees to feed on stores they themselves brought in by > > naturally foraging plants and flowers. >=20 > Okay. I think we all do that, so that point is moot. >=20 Some feed artificial out of tune with season. > That assumes that that, in the "former condition", bees were on a = "smaller > worker comb size". For most of history, and in many places, they were = on > natural comb. To truly regress thus, we should not use foundation, I = should > think. Or was there a golden age of beekeeping during the few years = that > EHB were kept on smaller foundations that is our ideal state? >=20 This needs another thread or subject line. Still needs shake downs until = settled. Foundation used in the right season can help bring the size = down faster and then foundationless will enable settling easier. I have = no hang up on this, I do it both ways. there is more than one way to = regress bees, but no matter how it takes time. Heck, it took time to = progress them up to their present altered state. > If there were no natural bees in that region, and all honey bees are > imports, how to we then regress? To nothing? No bees? >=20 Funny!! I think you are being facetious. Perhaps PETA would agree with = you but you know this is not the point of the conversation. We are = talking setting the bees on a more healthy course and putting them on a = comb size they may have been on before being altered bigger. Why turn = this into a Merry-Go-Round where nothing is real. Joe Waggle once a = while ago on a post on another list put it real about exactly what you = are up to in this line of questioning, maybe he can remember how he put = it? If this is the line of questioning that will continue I will have to = decline answering anymore of this kind of nonsense. > > and cell size preferred >=20 > Given a choice bees generally prefer to build *beside* the foundation, = not > on it, and a variiety of sizes and shapes, all on the same comb. >=20 Yes, is this a secret? Of course bees can build what they prefer this is = what I was stating. > Okay, so how does more breeding, more manipulating, more transporting, = and > providing different man-made hives with restrictive foundation come = into > this? >=20 Bees were being kept on Langstroth equipment before man decided to alter = the bees size. Why do you have this mind set on all this equipment when = as a beekeeper you do not need this stuff. Get off and get on with it = Allen. Just where does all this stuff come into it? What is your hang = up? I do not have these addictions or mind sets but then again I am a = young 49 years old and I have time to work. > > No, beekeepers can alter them back to the altered state again as was = done > > in the past and is still being done today. >=20 > So, what is the term for that? -- "progressed" bees? >=20 Yes, and progress may not be stopped and is not always a good thing. It = is quit evident to me that this progress of keeping bees is not going to = be stopped by mainstream beekeepers and this is why I can care less if a = beekeeper regresses or not. I was simply trying to answer your questions = I do not want you to regress your bees. > How can they regress to their natural state with you getting in the = way of > their natural process and introducing your prejudices? (I'm assuming = you > must have some, since we all do). >=20 Yes I do and I never said I did not. Life is not and never will be = perfect, but I can get it close to the mark if you do not mind. > It took me fifteen years to discover that I had no talent for writing, = but I > couldn't give it up because by that time I was too famous. > -- Robert Benchley >=20 This is not a writing contest, I think we are trying to talk bees by = writing. You yanked a big chain just like you planned I hope your satisfied. = Regression of bees is not as complicated as your trying to make it = Allen. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:56:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] In-Reply-To: <20051018.111843.10269.2279@webmail58.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar > I did not realize AMM were larger than Italians, Carniolans, or > Caucasians. Yes, the body is larger, the limbs are slightly shorter and thicker, when seen in bulk they appear to be similar sizes to other races, but when looked at individually the differences can be seen. > If I recall right, Caucasians are the smallest with the longest > tongues allowing them to take interest in red clover... I believe that this feature has been the cause of many of the bee enlargement trials that have occurred over the last century or more. > Instead of focusing on the 'right' or 'natural' cell width, the cell > diameter should be described as a fraction of the average bee body > envolope for each race? This would not work very well for AMM, as this race of bee has been demonstrated as being very flexible in cell size and capable of using cells over a much wider range of sizes than other races. > Dennis Murrell has shown, there is no such thing as a single cell > size in any naturally drawn out nest. As far as the whole nest is concerned the range of cell size and the range centre, may well be a good way of describing the collection of comb that forms the nest, whether foundation supplied to such a colony should be centre of range size, smaller or larger is another thing. > Do you have any feral AMM populations of in remote natural reserves etc. > perhaps? It would be most interesting to measure their cell sizing. Difficult to be certain about the feral nature of 'wild' colonies, but all the fragments of comb that I have measured from wild sources have been 5.5 or 5.6 mm in brood cells. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:05:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Amateur Replicatable Experiment Trials > 1) give up any hope of getting wealthy from your research ideas. Given that the subject matter is beekeeping, this is not too big a leap for anyone, is it? > 2) get some hard-nosed training in statistics Better yet, get a real statistician involved. Statisticians are the "lawyers and accountants" of science in that they do your books, and they keep you out of trouble. Statistics is a field in its own right, not something you can treat as a sideline. > 3) and the "real" sciences, such as math, physics, or chemistry. Wow, if this requirement were applied to the current group of researchers publishing in this field, conferences could be held around a single table at the "International House of Pancakes"! Entomology and biology tend to be the majors of these folks, not a field were a great deal of emphasis is placed upon or rigor is required in the area of the "hard sciences" (as opposed to the "softer" sciences, like Biology, or the very soft and squishy Psychology and Economics). The difference is that "hard" science devises experiments to determine causation, while "soft" sciences infer causation from observations under conditions that are often hard to replicate. > 4) insulate yourself from outside and/or vested interests by walling > yourself off (financially) in an independently funded or gov't. > organization. Or, just fund your own research, as was common for the bulk of the history of science itself. The entire concept of the full-time, paycheck-collecting researcher is a new and highly speculative development. The so-called "amateur scientist" was all there was for quite some time, and the term "amateur" has only recently been used by those in the employ of government, academia, or industry as a term of disparagement to give the impression that they somehow might be doing better work just because of the paychecks. While institutional funding has made "big science" possible, through the provisioning of expensive capital assets required to do the leading-edge "big projects", it is safe to say that the funding required to set up a simple double-blind study on 60 of his own hives for 2 or 3 seasons is not beyond the resources of any motivated individual. (Let's ballpark it as equal to the cost of a 2-week vacation.) The shocking thing is that the current state of the art in beekeeping related research simply does not include the phrases "double blind", "60 hives" or "2 - 3 seasons", so anyone taking such an approach would be doing much better than the current crop of independently funded and government/university funded folks. > 5) divest yourself of any financial links to industry. See (1) and (4) above. > 6) REALLY THINK about the problem Better yet, admit that others can see what you won't or can't, and send your experimental design around and solicit critiques from people like John, who know a bit about "good" versus "bad" experimental design. Any number can play, and the more the merrier. Also, recall that not all axioms are inherently correct. :) > 7) make sure you never adopt an affection for any of your theories, When it is proven over and over that "beauty is truth, and truth beauty", it is very very hard to not be seduced by an elegant and simple explanation. I think that this requirement is an ideal, and not one that can be demanded as a prerequisite. Hence, "double-blind" set-ups are the way to go. > 8) null hypothesis, See (6) above. > 9) always have control groups randomly mixed in with your tests. Better yet, construct a double-blind set-up the person taking the readings has no idea which hives have been subjected to what. This is done in medical trials all the time, yet when "medicine" is to be applied to bees, this approach is almost universally ignored. It is among the most powerful ways to avoid all charges of "bias", as only the scorekeeper (the statistician) knows which one is what one, and what one is who, and he ain't telling 'till all the data is in. > 10) talk to a real statistician before the tests start (hopefully > before you spend money setting up a flawed experiment). See (2), but understand that experimentalists are also important to this process, so see (6) > 11) expect that your character and bias will be questioned. You forgot to include parentage, sexual habits, personal hygiene... :) > Any research which starts out to prove a pet hypothesis has already > prostituted itself, and is only anecdotal. It follows that the inverse is also true, yet somehow, setting out to disprove something is not considered nearly as questionable. jim (Who, not long ago, ran a division of Bell Labs with 5,000 researchers, was actually assigned a "quota" of one Nobel Prize every 4 years, and has seen every one of John's suggestions ignored more often than he would care to admit.) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:44:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I measured the cells in the feral brood comb retrieved last Sat. about 20 mi. (in Great Neck, NY) from my location. The cells in the lower half of the comb averaged 5.03 mm and the cells in the upper half averaged 5.40 mm. These were the average values; there were slightly smaller and slightly larger cells in both halves. The outer comb cells were much larger and deeper (for honey storage). Interestingly, the feral comb retrieved from a tree in Oyster Bay, NY last June averaged 5.08 mm. (This comb has been in my garage for 3-4 months.) I used calipers to measure across 10 cells to get the one cell average. An optical comparator would be a more accurate. These values are somewhat less than standard foundation cell sizes. I am only sharing my observations without drawing any conclusions about 'regression,' 'right cell size' etc. at this time. I'll measure feral comb in this neck of the woods going forward. Trends may stand out over time. Comb from two feral colonies is a start but not a trend. The positive aspect was that the brood comb was very dark, the home/tree owners reported bees being in the cavities min. 2-3 years, and the bees looked very healthy and vigorous. On the other hand, I have 2 hives that are headed up by daughter queens from a feral queen captured 3 years ago. Her feral colony was also very healthy. My hives carry varroa and start showing shriveled wings at this time of the year... My hypothesis is the natural broodnest with its cell gradation makes a difference. Unfortunately, I don't have TBH style hives (yet :) to put my colonies in to see if the varroa/virus symptoms would abate. I believe this is what Dennis Murrell observed, however. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:22:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Amateur Replicatable Experiment Trials Better yet, look at the exact opposite of what John proposes! Guidelines for doing your own research (memorize these) : > 1) I am going to be fabulously wealthy as a result of my brilliant work, just like Bill Gates > 2) Statistics are lies, Mark Twain said so. > 3) Scientists are a bunch of specialists and know nothing about the real world. Forget about them. > 4) As soon as I get this baby ready to fly, I'll find somebody with big money to back it. > 5) Maybe USDA will put up the funds for this one, they'll make a bundle on it too. > 6) This idea is so hot, I'll worry about the small stuff later > 7) This idea is so brilliant, I can't believe no one thought of it. Must be they're too sure of themselves to see what I see. It's so obvious. > 8) In fact, I am so sure of this, I am going to do this to every lamb in the flock. > 9) Why fool around with stuff like controls, or comparison trials? If it works, it'll sell. > 10) Wait a minute, I better not consult anyone about this, they'll just steal my idea anyway. > 11) I can see it now, them all dismissing my work, because I have never been to university or done this type of thing before. So-called experts be hanged. For sure, all the best work is based on intuition, but that's all lost on those rationalists who are always going on about reality-checking, whatever that means. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:25:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Morphological Characteristics of AHB & Small Bees In-Reply-To: <20051018020135.33911.qmail@web34310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe Sorry about the delay in replying, I have been preparing for a three day conference and as usual... I am way behind schedule :-) First a mild warning about what morphometry can and cannot do, it is only useful in conjunction with behavioural records from the colonies assessed and can only be applied where biometric data has been ascertained as particular to the species concerned (Ruttner characters). > "wing length is linearly correlated with body size". I would qualify that by adding 'within the same strain', but I would further comment that no single parameter should ever be used for classification... This is a trade off, the more data you collect the more reliable the conclusions, but the more work is involved. The 'F' in FABIS stands for 'fast' and that is because the procedure has been ruthlessly simplified, once a simple procedure gives pointers to candidate colonies, more detailed assessments can, and should, be made. Wing length is helpful in FABIS, but for other purposes will not prove reliable without correlation with other features. > if the fore-wing would be the one to measure here. Most commonly, but some studies use both and some differentiate between right wings and left wings, yet others average out left and right and so on.... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/wingmeasurement.html Additional measurements that may prove helpful are the lengths of wing veins, some angles between wing veins and some ratios of lengths or angles. There are some detailed data sets that are due to Tom Rinderer and some of his colleagues and students, I don't have the references to hand, but Tom is a helpful guy and he is approachable. > Are wings measured with a projection slide screen > or under a microscope and what magnification? Both methods are used, although projection methods use a solid wall rather than a screen, but these days most wings are scanned with a high resolution scanner and the resulting images are fed into a plotting application that records the points and calculates all of the parameters automatically. These are available for free download in various places like my site, BIBBA site and GBBG website, there are other, more sophisticated, applications that you will need to pay for, but they are not very expensive. Preparation of wings for projection is on... http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/wingmounting.html >Is the FABIS method available on your site? No, but you can find it here... http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/fabismanual.htm Having started this post with some warnings, I will also end it by saying that the results you get are only as good as the information that has formed the database that you are making your comparisons to. You started your questions by mentioning... > there were five possible quantitative trait loci that > effects drone size, and a possible 4 QTLs that affected > worker size. That is only a fraction of the information, you need to know the numbers of possible alleles that can fit at each of these locations and what happens when the various possible combinations of these alleles do actually occur. Although FABIS is not on the agenda, you can learn about morphometry at the Gormanston Summer School, which I will be plugging at various times during the year. Should there be a demand, and if this demand is recognised early enough, maybe FABIS could be included at Gormanston, but having mentioned it as a possibility, I must also say that I do not have the authority to make it happen. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:38:04 +0200 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Sizes In-Reply-To: <4355FC44.6080404@lineone.net> Bees bodies are fairly proportional... It's not far from true to say - big body - big wings, small wings - small body. Or? Big bodies demands bigger cellsize than small bodies. Right? Different bee races = different sizes. Why "put" big body in small cells and why putt small body i big cells? Bees should be kept i NATURALL size of cells. Right? When talking wing size: inner inner 6 fields lenght width AHB 4,349 1,944 4,735 BUCKFAST 4,553 2,084 5,346 CAPENSIS 4,517 2,106 5,306 CARNICA 4,587 2,139 5,519 CAUCASIA 4,526 2,100 5,313 CECROPIA 4,472 2,083 5,247 IBERIENSIS 4,474 1,998 5,000 LIGUSTICA 4,462 2,099 5,289 LITTOREA 4,091 1,885 4,302 MACEDONICA 4,466 2,075 5,194 MELLIFERA 4,548 2,073 5,277 MONTICOLA 4,236 1,934 4,619 SCUTELLATA 4,162 1,909 4,472 As I understand this figures, so carnica is much bigger than AHB. I can't understand why to use the arizona cell size for carnica. If you are curious what "inner length", "inner width" and "6 fields" means, go to: http://www.quicknet.se/home/q-119076/BONUS/1-bonus.html click on "Avel" and than click on "DAWINO". In the file "Factor description" you find the answer. \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:37:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Regressed Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>You can prove smaller cells reduces varroa, but why is this so? Maybe because there's less room, period. I read somewhere that bees vibrate the comb for communication. (I've seen queens vibrate the comb, when feeling threatened, and this causes the surrounding bees to freeze.) Supposedly, plastic foundation differs from wax in the vibratory response. Vibrations may be used during scouts' dances to inform others of nectar sources... I don't know if bees sense varroa, or pupae in trouble, by smell or vibratory response or otherwise. Perhaps the smaller cells fine-tune the vibratory response? Dennis has a picture of bee-bitten varroa in his TBHs on his website. Something helps bees focus defensively on the mites. Dennis reported seeing more damaged varroa on the hive bottom in the fall when the brood is in the lower, smaller cell comb. I think bees need to remove varroa-infected pupae when the mites are still immature. I've observed bees dragging out damaged young bees where the bee doing the removing had a light-colored (semi-mature) mite on their body. I think semi-mature mites can jump from a damaged bee to the removing bee and return to the hive. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:44:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Where's the proof In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray McGregor wrote: > Our native Lime is Tilia cordata, the Small-leaved lime. Its honey is > this strange colour, but nice in a jar I brought some Basswood/lime honey to a friend. We were in a hotel and he was not in his room so left the 3 lb jar outside his door. He told me that, at first, he thought someone had left an exceedingly large urine sample at his door. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:56:52 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dave, >>...not work very well for AMM, as ... very flexible in cell size... Do you think each race could have a mean or a median size around which variations could be measured? I suspect bees don't want to raise one-size bees. I'd think a colony that has a range of bee sizes is more adaptable to its floral sources etc. throughout the season. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:59:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? > [the tracheal opening on a honey bee] > is still somewhat elastic and mites can therefor > push things around to get in. This seems a bit of an understatement, given the difference in size between the typical tracheal mite and the tracheal spiracles. When one looks at the calibrated images here: http://www.sel.barc.usda.gov/acari/content/trachealmites.html and compares the sizes of the mites with the excellent micrographs in chapter 6 ("Respiration") in the late Lesley Goodman's "Form and Function in the Honey Bee", one can see that even a 10% reduction in the size of the spiracles themselves would not seem to prevent a tracheal mite from entering. When one then adds in the following clue: > John McMullen...This study showed that for a body size > shift of 10% there was only a 1% change in the diameter of > the tracheal orifice. one is forced to question if it would even be possible to "downsize" a bee to get a small enough spiracle to naturally exclude tracheal mites. It seems to be a moot point, regardless. Given that multiple breeders have effectively eliminated tracheal mite susceptibility in "non-downsized" bees, it seems clear that smaller spiracles are not required to achieve "tracheal-mite resistant" bees. jim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:47:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: SMR versus HYG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>The latter reportedly cannot suppress varroa very well, but the SMR bees do suppress mite reproduction quite well -- just not the way the researchers initially thought.<<< Since the onset of the search for Varroa tolerant/resistant bees I have rationalized that the first thing needed was a bee that "knew one when it saw one". Perhaps both strains are "hygienic" for the same reasons but SMR "recognizes" Varroa as a foreign entity and something to be "cleaned out" whereas Spivak's HYG bees are "barn blind" in that respect. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Varroa are so "integrated" into their host biology that they utilize some hemolymph contents directly, i.e. without digesting them. Composed of bee material as they are, bees need to "recognize" them as different. Bees, of whatever species. already have grooming behaviors, etc. to deal with external parasites and "unhealthy brood". These can be co-opted, for use against Varroa, by Apis mellifera only when they "see" Varroa , for what it "really" is, rather than just another appendage. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:13:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Rhododendron Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now I've never heard of Rhododendron honey, but somebody was asking if I had heard that eating Rhododendron honey would make you go insane? It sounds like another tale tell. But does anyone out there know? Russ Dean -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:19:11 -0700 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Welfare Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith writes "Somethings I will never be able to explain to some people, it is like a drug that keeps sick people alive past their time. In the case of bees if they can not bring it in to survive, in nature their genetics would die off and not be there to pollute the pool. Hard huh." I keep trying to think of any agricultural plant or animal where one can let nature take it's course, and I still can't think of any. I used to think Brazil nuts was a case, but I read recently that older plantings show signs of having been planted by Indian civilizations. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 09:07:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Research Bias Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Ok, I know both John and Jim. And, I've made my living for over 30 years doing research. Unlike John and Jim, my team has always been self-sustaining, no salaried federal, private, or university lines here. No one pays us a salary, the electric bill, etc. -- that is, no one but us. We compete our dollars, then pay rent in the form of indirect cost returns. Two years ago, we formed a company. We now do basic research through the University (UM), applied work through our business on the north side of Missoula (Bee Alert Technology, Inc.). And, I should add that we were the 2nd company in Montana to be approved by the MT Board of Regents (means we can license our own innovations back from the UM). I have current projects through both operations. I can't make a profit through the UM, can in theory do so through the company -- but we plow back every penny into our research. Maybe in a few years we will actually have products and services that may generate some income. But our driving interest is paying the bills so we can continue to work on problem solving. Now, as to bias, which John and Jim debate. I'm not aware that I have any more or less bias based on whether I'm working on a project through the UM or through our business. Reality check: bottom line, negative data is fine, but it doesn't result in follow on work. I can't fudge the data (without integrity, a scientist has nothing), so we have to be very adaptive, good at what we do to keep going. In fact, we'll fire, on the spot, any employee caught changing data. That means we got to be good at problem solving, not only the client's problem, but also everything that pops up and goes wrong in testing. In our group, we consider Murphy to be the optimist. On the other hand, remember, we're working on using bees to find landmines (UM project) and to provide an instant alert of toxic chemicals in the air (Bee Alert Tech project). Lives will depend on us doing this right. So, we get statisticians involved, certification groups for testing of our electronics, double blind trials where either a 3rd party (another lab, university, program officer) is involved, writes a report, signs it, etc. -- and we most often have to demonstrate our technologies IN THE FIELD in front of a dozen or more witnesses/experts. A couple of years ago, we had a team of 12 people working on a double blind series of trials (distributed over 2 years) -- the purpose of the monitored tests was to show we must be wrong, the bees couldn't be that good. Truckloads of video tape, countless hours of analysis, and the bees proved to be better than we claimed. Won our critics over to our side. Depending on the trial, either my group or the sponsor usually pays for the independent assessment. It costs money -- BUT, if I let a contract to someone to do this for us, I DON'T want a false or faked report. We stipulate that we NEED to know just how good or bad it is. That's another place where the stats come in. No test is perfect. But, it makes a big difference when finding landmines whether the probability (odds) that we will detect a buried mine is 98-100% or 60%. Obviously, we want 100% -- but no system finds them all. 98% is less than desired, far better than 60%. Its all about honesty and integrity. Money can have a negative influence, but if it does, I'll bet the investigator would cook the data for other purposes, such as getting one more paper out, getting a promotion, etc. REAL scientists won't do that. Note, I didn't say shouldn't or scientists in general -- even though we all know some that do. From my vantage point, its all about ethics, and you don't deserve the title of Scientist if you're not ethical. Finally, the title is NOT dependent on formal education. Yes, a Ph.D. is a form of union card if you're working in a university. But, we've had lots of Great Scientists with little or no formal education. And if you think this is a thing of the past, look to some of the leaders of the computer technology industries. You may quibble whether they are scientists, engineers, business people -- but some of the biggest started their careers building and testing in their garages -- and many dropped out of school. Which also goes to prove that some people make money in these fields of endeavor. Cheers Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:51:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Rhododendron Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rhododendron will not cause insanity (permanently) but it will make you sick. Toxins in the nectar. Ancient Romans used to leave pots of such honey out to sicken invaders. This is a very vague recollection. Plenty in the archives on this. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S2=bee-l&q=rhododendron&s=&f= &a=&b= Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:51:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > ...and possibly fed artificial feeds (Sugar syrups and pollen substitutes) If the bees belong to me I can assure you they have fed the above! Until proof that using the above is a detriment to the bees health I will keep doing so. Many precious research dollars have been spent trying to prove use of fructose & pollen patties is bad for bees. None have succeeded so far! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:00:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Drone Brood Removal Quote: At EAS 2005 there was a presentation on doing drone removal for varroa control. They used two drone brood frames in each hive. These were removed on a 30 day cycle and replaced with a second set of two drone frames. For the next 30 days the first two frames sat in a freezer. This is the way to capitalize on the fact that varroa thrive in large cells. Instead of making all the cells smaller (a huge undertaking) -- you offer a couple of combs where they can congregate. Please note: 30 days is too long. Better get them out sooner or the drones may hatch, and out come the mites! IG -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:17:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Poor nutrition in my opinion will alter DNA just as proper nutrition can > repair DNA. Opinons are not facts. Facts are what we like best here on BEE-L, but we do find opinions interesting. Nonetheless, this opinion seems to be at odds with the facts, at least if we are talking about the DNA involved in heredity. Others can -- and will -- comment, I am fairly sure. > So yes it can be temporary but only by God given nutrition and not man > made artificial feeds. This sounds like dogma, not science, and the fact that the above collection of words can be formed into a sentence does not mean they should be, or that such an arrangement make any sense to rational people. FWIW -- Years ago, when I was much younger and grappling with the meaning of life and everything (before I reached 42) a friend who was lecturing in philosophy at a university (while also hosting a late-night radio underground music show) expalined to me that just because important-sounding words can be made into sentences that have correct syntax -- and sound OK -- we should not assume that they necessarily have real meaning. He used the question, "Is the mountain happy?", as an example of the puzzling nonsense that can be formed. Since then, my life has been much better, and I no longer torture myself trying to find meaning in sentence-like collections of unrelated words. >> That assumes that that, in the "former condition", bees were on a >> "smaller worker comb size". For most of history, and in many places, >> they were on natural comb. To truly regress thus, we should not use >> foundation, I should think. Or was there a golden age of beekeeping >> during the few years that EHB were kept on smaller foundations that is >> our ideal state? > This needs another thread or subject line. Still needs shake downs until > settled. Foundation used in the right season can help bring the size down > faster and then foundationless will enable settling easier. Okay, whoa! "Shake downs", "settled", "right season", "foundationless will enable settling easier"??? I don't get any of this. Moreover, even if it does, it does not seem to answer the question asked. >> If there were no natural bees in that region, and all honey bees are >> imports, how to we then regress? To nothing? No bees? > Funny!! I think you are being facetious. Not at all. I'm trying to understand where you are going, or at least where you think you are going. > Perhaps PETA would agree with you but you know this is not the point of > the conversation. How did PETA come into this? And why not just answer the straightforward question? > We are talking setting the bees on a more healthy course and putting them > on a comb size they may have been on before being altered bigger. Why turn > this into a Merry-Go-Round where nothing is real. That's what I am asking you. "Real" for me means, to a large extent, understandable and proveable, not vague, elusive and undefined. > Joe Waggle once a while ago on a post on another list put it real about > exactly what you are up to in this line of questioning, maybe he can > remember how he put it? If this is the line of questioning that will > continue I will have to decline answering anymore of this kind of > nonsense. That is your right. You can fold if you don't have a good hand, or have reasons not to play it. Nonetheless, these are simple, reasonable questions and, as a point of fact -- as far as I can tell -- you have not succeeded in answering *anything* so far, with anything except generalities, evasions and personal comments, even to the extent that you may have attempted to do so. Therefore, most readers are likely to conclude that you are holding a pair of threes -- at best. >> Given a choice bees generally prefer to build *beside* the foundation, >> not on it, and a variiety of sizes and shapes, all on the same comb. > Yes, is this a secret? Of course bees can build what they prefer this is > what I was stating. Okay, maybe I missed it. How, exactly, do they do this when forced onto small cell comb? >> Okay, so how does more breeding, more manipulating, more transporting, >> and providing different man-made hives with restrictive foundation come >> into this? > Bees were being kept on Langstroth equipment before man decided to alter > the bees size. What does this mean? I was asking if this short period was a golden age for bees, where things were far more ideal, than the thousands of years when they were free or kept in skeps or vessels containing their own natural comb. > Why do you have this mind set on all this equipment when as a beekeeper > you do not need this stuff. I have no idea what you are talking about. In the archives, you can read my posts, going back a decade or more, where I question the use of foundation and the wisdom of using conventional hives. > Get off and get on with it Allen. Just where does all this stuff come into > it? What is your hang up? I do not have these addictions or mind sets but > then again I am a young 49 years old and I have time to work. Hmmm. What is going on here? Just answer the questions or take the fifth. > This is not a writing contest, I think we are trying to talk bees by writing. You yanked a big chain just like you planned I hope your satisfied. Regression of bees is not as complicated as your trying to make it Especially if nobody can clearly define it and explain it -- or even discuss it without resorting to distracting evasions, generalities, and, eventually assumptions and accusations about the listeners intentions -- all for asking straightforward honest questions. allen Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. -- Eric Hoffer -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:29:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] In-Reply-To: <20051019.065709.14460.8957@webmail66.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar > Do you think each race could have a mean or a median size around which variations could be measured? I suspect bees don't want to raise one-size bees. I'd think a colony that has a range of bee sizes is more adaptable to its floral sources etc. throughout the season. There probably is a median for each race/strain, but I reckon it would be hard to find and define in most of todays bees, for reasons of lack of purity of race and long term use of foundation that was of an inappropriate size for the race or strain concerned. The figures that were observed and recorded in the period around 1880 would be good bets, but even then I would not put too much on their accuracy. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:27:17 -0700 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Rhododendron Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The story comes from the Greek mercenary leader Xenophon's account of fighting in what is now modern day Turkey. Here's his book on line in English http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/xenophon-anabasis.html#Project%20Gutenberg He claimed that honey made his troops go mad, but it seems ambigous to me whether he meant crazy or just crazy with pain. He said the symptoms lasted for about 4 days and included things like stomach troubles. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:29:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gauthier Buddy Subject: Bee Losses due to Hurricanes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm just a beekeeper hobbyist with 8 hives. I'm registered with the state of Louisiana as such. We felt the effects of Katrina and Rita almost back to back. We evacuated and had to stay away for a time. When I was able to get back into my hives, 4 of the bigger, well established hives loss the covers and 6" of rain saturated the hives. I couldn't even put the covers back on because the inside covers were swollen from the rain. I noticed the bees left and the brood died. Within a couple of weeks I noticed that the wax moths were trying to settle in. Nothing was salvagable. If I didn't have to pay attention to human lives and property damage or if I could have gotten back sooner, I may have been able to salvage them. So now I'm down to 4 hives, mostly starters. My property is insured through AllState and I'm still waiting for the adjuster to visit. In the meantime, I took pictures of the hives as I found them. I did not take pictures of the inner parts of the hives. One hive was even stacked unevenly like a small child would stack blocks unevenly. I'm still not sure how the wind did that. None of them flipped or toppled. Since I'm not a commercial operation, will my policy cover my bees and the hives? I feel they are my personal property. What should I look for on my policy as an exclusion(wording of it) that perhaps give them a way out or not? I'm insured for all structures on the property. In my mind, each hive is a structure with a foundation(cinder blocks) and they have roofs(covers). Can anyone give me recommendations on how to talk to the adjuster? One agent who was down to assist the local agents told me she felt they were my personal property and it should cover it, however I was told not the quote her. We have a tractor shed that collapsed and my 1948 Allis Chalmers WD made it. So the insurance will only have minor damage to my home, the collapsed shed and my beehives. I have a $500 deductible. Anyone's feedback would be appreciated. 51 days since the storm hit Buddy Gauthier Beekeeper Hobbyist 60 miles WSW of New Orleans LA P.S. I did call the USDA and our county agent. They both sympathized and took my information down. With wood and replacement bees, we calculated $650 not even counting the honey loss and potential loss for spring.(not even sure how to calculate that). They both said that they were pushing for a relief package for farmers and I might not fall under that umbrella not being a commercial entity. I also applied to FEMA for a Small Business Loan, but I'm not keen on borrowing any more money. I'm too stretched out already.=20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:23:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Multiple Variables and Small Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not only can you not prove that there is such a thing as "regression" as you describe it, you can't prove that any lowering of mite count is caused by regression, instead of the other key factors: climate and the presence of African Bees. quotes: Although the mite has caused severe losses of honeybee colonies and has eliminated wild bee populations in temperate climates, it does not appear to be a serious pest in regions of the world where the Africanized honey bees (AHB) exist. -- Spivak Although reproduction of Varroa is affected by the space between the developing bee and cell wall, reducing cell sizes as a mite control method will probably fail to be effective since the bees are likely to respond by rearing correspondingly smaller bees -- Martin __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:45:42 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Rhododendron Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The chemical in the rhododendron honey that causes the problems is grayanotoxin. See www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap44.html Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:06:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> all for asking straightforward honest questions. > > I gave you my honest answers If that's the best you have, then thanks, and I apologise for expecting more. > albiet twisted upon as they were by---?, but these are no good for the > judge of my words. Sorry!! Not sure what you are trying to say here, but thanks, anyways. Please let us know when you do have some solid info. We're all very interested in the topic, and looking for answers. allen He can compress the most words into the smallest ideas of any man I ever met. -- Abraham Lincoln -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:13:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <000001c5d4b5$4c96fda0$03fca8c0@gollum> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > [the tracheal opening on a honey bee] > > is still somewhat elastic and mites can therefor > > push things around to get in. http://www.sel.barc.usda.gov/acari/content/trachealmites.html Nice link Jim! Would be interesting reading if one of the members that may have access could locate these two manuscripts. ---------- "A COMPARATIVE STUDY OF THE EXTERNAL MORPHOLOGY OF THE PROTHORACIC AND THE PROPODEAL SPIRACLES IN FOUR STRAINS OF Apis mellifera (L.). POSSIBLE RESISTANCE MECHANISM AGAINST THE TRACHEAL MITE Acarapis woodi (R.)" Theophilidis G., Hatjina F., Gregorc A. , Pappas N. Zacharioudakis St. , Thrasyvoulou A. Proceedings of The 1st Hellenic Scientific Conference in Apiculture-Sericulture 150-158 (2002). ----------- "DIFFERENCES IN THE MORPHOLOGY OF PROTHORACIC AND PROPODEAL SPIRACLES IN THREE STRAINS OF APIS MELLIFERA : POSSIBLE RELATION TO RESISTANT AGAINST ACARAPIS WOODI." Fani Hatjina Ales Gregorc, Chrisovalantis Papaefthimiou, Nickolaos Pappas, Stylianos Zacharioudakis, Andreas Thrasyvoulou, George Theophilidis, J. APIC. RES (2004) 43(3): Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:44:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Russ Dean Subject: Re: Rhododendron Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Thanks for the Info. Also I will not be able to come to Apimondia. You know how it is when your the only one running a farm. Russ Dean West Virginia, USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:08:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] Hi Guys, >Perhaps Dennis can say whether he put regressed bees in his TBHs... Yes I did. And I was quite surprised by what I found. My small cell bees didn't have any cell size memory at all. As a matter of fact, they only built large cell size comb. It was the bees that hatched out of that same large cell size comb, that later, drew out the small cell size comb in my tbh. Kind of a double blind test run by the bees themselves:>))) And I put some regressed small cell bees into standard hives with exclusively clean, large cell size comb. These hives were maintained for three seasons. And then some of these resulting large cell bees were again placed into a tbh. The results: They built a broodnest with the same orientation and cell size distribution as did the original small cell bees when put into a tbh. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:14:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] Hi Guys, >The figures that were observed and recorded in the period around 1880 would be good bets, but even then I would not put too much on their accuracy.... There's another factor to be considered when evaluating most historical measurement. Most beekeepers believed the concept that bees draw out only a single worker cell size. Just how did they find that perfect size cell? What criteria was used to select some comb and reject others? A specimen of fossilized honeybee comb was found in China. It would be interesting to see if the bees built a single size worker cell or whether the cell size tapers like all of the comb I've measured to date. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:32:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: My small cell experience Hi Bill, Thanks for the reply. I think both you and I are old enough to have some beekeeping experience before the arrival of the mites. Before the mites, yards left untended for several years, would unwind just about like you have described with your untended yards. And, in this country, feral hives were not a common occurence. I think that was normal as feral colonies of bees seldom occur in groups of 20 to 50 colonies in a single location. And, in my area, a beeyard every 3/4 mile or so. But in those times, with appropriate beekeeper care, equipment could be kept filled with bees and a decent crop of honey produced. Today, yards often unwind, even with the best beekeeper care. And they can unwind alot faster, in a year or less. Overwintering is a disaster for most. Empty equipment is a fact of life unless package bees are brought in each season. Small cell has returned my beekeeping to the 'before' state. The beeyard still needs the beekeeper. But nothing like it did with the mites and my bees on large cell sized comb. It's good to hear of your much better state of health. Best Regards and Many more years of Beekeeping Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:40:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Regressed Bees Greetings Everyone, >Thinking newer beekeepers should read a little of past history to know what is happening today.... I agree. Here's a great read concerning this subject by one of the original comb measurers and foundation manufacturers, A. I. Root. http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/sair.htm Some of this literature has been incorrectly interpreted to support the small cell/bee size theory and the bigger is better idea. Dee and I differ on this subject. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:49:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Regressed Bees In-Reply-To: <200510191116.j9JAu6b6022849@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: ?? You don't know whether I am a "new beekeeper" or not. Reply: I would have thought the reply I made was to a discussion group as a whole, you are replying to here; but actually, whether you are new or not was not considered. Concerning Brazil and the 60% infestation of mites you were talking about between large and small cell though. Are you aware that Brazil uses 4.9mm foundation mills AFAIK from Tom Industries? and that all we have done is put our bees like them, back onto a natural sizing, in the center of the natural cell size range of sizes found in Nature in the field. Then when regressed and back to ground zero (4.9mm here IMPOV), then let the bees by choice, either go larger or slightly smaller by their building of the combs? We get the same results with our bees, and less then 1-2% secondary diseases too. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:55:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: (Isis') Replicatable Experiment Trials In-Reply-To: <200510191322.j9JCmvw3028509@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love it!!! You have a great career ahead of you, and whatever you're selling, I'll buy!! (still laughing) - John Isis Glass wrote: >Better yet, look at the exact opposite of what John proposes! > >Guidelines for doing your own research (memorize these) : > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:09:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Greg Brown Subject: Re: Bee Losses due to Hurricanes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Buddy, Sorry to hear about your losses, I am a Florida beekeeper, who went through 2 huricanes last year, and the storms took my 250 hive operation down to 18 hives. Here's what I went through. Most of the wood ware ended up being salvagable, I used a hose to clean out the salt water (I was 25 miles inland), and then I soaked all equipment in a water bleach solution (30 US gal of water to 1 cup of clorox bleach) for about 20-30 minutes. Then let it air dry, in a low humidity room (honey house with A/C, and dehumidifier on for several days worked for me) most of the combs ended up being reusable also. For the reimbursment issues, not much luck there. Like you said FEMA, was willing to loan money, I didn't want to go that route either. USDA ended up with one program for all agriculture, their answer was a crop loss program. The USDA would pay for the loss of any crop that year due to the storms. This helped out citrus growers, vegatable growers etc.. A lot of beekeepers ended with nothing because the majority of honey had been harvested before the storms hit. No money to replacement of bees, or equipment. Remember big business agriculture is going to listened to the most, and what ever program gets developed for your region will help the agribusiness the most. Insurance is very tricky as most homeowners policies don't like to cover bees, due to inherent risk factors. some times you can get a special rider to your policy to cover bees, other times/places you have to purchase a seperate policy just to cover bees. So I wouldn't place much faith on your insurance company. Good luck, Greg Up to 70 hives this year, next year I will be back over 200. -- _______________________________________________ Search for businesses by name, location, or phone number. -Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:58:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My small cell bees didn't have any cell size memory at all. As a matter of fact, they only built large cell size comb Does not suprise me in the least. >. It was the bees that hatched out of that same large cell size comb, that later, drew out the small cell size comb in my tbh. If your observations of feral comb are like mine I believe although you found some small cell cells there were plenty of other size cells in the feral brood comb IN WHICH THE BEES WERE RAISING WORKER BROOD. ALWAYS the smallest cells are in the center of feral brood comb. What bees do! While it is small cells in the center of feral comb the comb I have looked at had plenty of 5.1-5.3 mm cells between the honey/pollen area and the center small cells. The bees were using plenty of those cells to raise worker brood. Several times beekeepers have held up a piece of feral comb and said: "See the comb is 4.9mm." I get out a measure and determine that half of the comb the bees are raising worker brood in are in fact larger than 4.9mm.. Yes some might be 4.9mm. "I have never seen a piece of feral comb which did not leave more questions than answers as to comb cell size." Bob Harrison The only place 4.9mm. is constant is when the bees are given a pattern to follow and as said on the list they do not downsize easily. They want to build a bigger cell size or in my opinion or they would "regress" immediately. If Dennis M. observations is the bees have got no memory of cell size then why would they not simply draw 4.9mm. right away when given the 4.9mm pattern? Follow the pattern girls! They do with 5.1 clear up to 5.4 mm. WHY NOT WHEN GIVEN 4.9MM? I believe the 4.9mm is the unnatural size. Perhaps helps with varroa control in a way we have not yet figured out but still NOT WHAT THE BEES WANT TO BUILD WHEN LEFT ALONE! I am a realist! I observe. The only size all BUT AHB want to draw is 5.1mm and above. My friends in South Africa have said not all cells are 4.9mm in scut feral colonies and can be as much as half a couple tenths of a mm. larger. "The only consistent thing about bees is their inconsistency" Dr.C.C. Miller "Nature has unlimited time in which to travel along tortuous paths to an unknown destination. The mind of man is too feeble to discern whence or wither the path runs and has to be content if it can decern only portions of the track,however small" Karl Von Frish Sincerely, Bob Harrison "What we don't know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:43:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Multiple Variables and Small Cells In-Reply-To: <20051019192355.67246.qmail@web35003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: Not only can you not prove that there is such a thing as "regression" as you describe it, you can't prove that any lowering of mite count is caused by regression, instead of the other key factors: climate and the presence of African Bees. Reply: Environment is 1/3, Diet is 1/3, breeding is 1/3. Climate goes hand in hand with environment which goes hand in hand with cell size, which in turn then determines diet and breeding parameters, of which in breeding, a yellow bee is still a yellow bee, and a black/brown bee is still a black/brown bee, except by man/s naming. We live in a whole world with everything interdependent. Always have and always will. It's about time we lived with a whole-bee concept too in our field work also with honeybees. Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:48:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Rhododendron Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was also a report someone getting sick from mountain laurel in north carolina which is also an azalea like rhodi...this is also a vague recollection Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:48:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Lusby: Thinking newer beekeepers should read a little of past history to >know what is happening today. > >?? You don't know whether I am a "new beekeeper" or not. Let me rephrase for Dee and readers. "All beekeepers should...." Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:48:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Foundationless Systems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'd think a colony that has a range of bee sizes is more adaptable to its floral sources etc. throughout the season. Waldemar, I wholely agree, and in discussions with Dee and almost every other small cell or whole beekeeper I speak with also agrees. However the ideal situation comes with its own price which can be a serious disadvantage for larger scale operations. The loss of uniformity. For a large operation, the ability to have readily interchangeable equipment (which includes drawn comb) can enhance overall ease of management. Running a foundationless system like I do ties own's hands and nearly forces you to manage each hive individually. When the bees are allowed to design their own broodnest structure, the beekeeper is limited in his/her choices. I choose to bear this burden, but in the end I believe I and the bees benefit from my willingness to work a little harder. Dee might chime in and explain how she discovered the benefits of small cell beekeeping by using foundationless systems, including top bar hives for observation purposes. Foundationless strictly from a colony health and vigor point of view is ideal, but it is a limitation as well if you require equipment uniformity. Foundationless is far from uniform. A core brood comb must remain in the core brood nest, and peripheral comb must remain in its own section. Moving combs from one part of the hive to another creates a disturbance that almost unfailingly for me andseveral others disturbs the structure of the colony enough to do actual, long term and lasting harm in most areas of interest from declining health to production levels. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:48:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isis, You misunderstand. The enlargement and the pop benefit was that it would increase production. This isn't just an explained idea, its documented with clear chronology when you have access to those antique books and journals. It is something that was done and documented, then forgotten in it ubiquity. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:41:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Multiple Variables and Small Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isis, Small cell is practiced successfully in all regions of north and south america and also in the norland european countries as well. I am sure elsewhere also, but don't know where. So i hardly can support that small cell is a regional phenomenon specific to the lusby region or climate or africanization either since it works well in northern europe where there is no reported invasion of africanized bees. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:41:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Pollution by feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, The detriment is in supporting lines of genetics that would otherwise have removed. Whether we agree on the detriment or benefit of feeding syrup is irrelevant to this point. Whether you feed honey, syrup or pollen substitute, no matter the source,if you feed bees that on their own cannot gather enough to feed themselves would not make the cut in the natural selection process, and so as keith says, are allowed to pollute the genetic pool. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:11:17 -0400 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Ontario Beekeepers Association annual mtg. +Apitherapy course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Ontario Beekeepers' Association (OBA) will be holding its annual convention and business meeting. Ontario beekeepers will meet at the Delta Meadowvale Hotel, Mississauga (Toronto area), Ontario, November 18-19 2005. A very good agenda is being presented. Also, on the same weekend, 19-20 of November , an "Intensive, Apitherapy Course Level 1" is being presented. Full details for both are available on the OBA website, www.ontariobee.com . Advanced registration rate is due October 28, 2005. All are welcome!! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:21:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Rhododendron Honey In-Reply-To: <219.bd0cd30.3087ae94@wmconnect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ Dean wrote: > I had > heard that eating Rhododendron honey would make you go insane? Most of us who post on the BeeL eat it regularly. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:27:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Research Bias In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20051019083944.05df0ec0@mso.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > Two years ago, we formed a company. We now do basic research through the > University (UM), applied work through our business This is close to the way much "independent" research is carried on, two companies/groups, one, the non-profit research group and the other the one that uses the research for profit. Great for taxes. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:21:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Sizes In-Reply-To: <4356685C.19078.AACA174@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Olda Vancata wrote: > Different bee races = different sizes. Why "put" big body in small > cells and why putt small body i big cells? Bees should be kept i > NATURALL size of cells. Right? The more I read about "regression" the most confused I become. I agree with the above post, since, if the race of bee is naturally on say, 5.01, why provide an unnatural 4.9? Dennis says that his bees on TBH build to a specific size (range actually, but they are a consistent range) which seems to me would be specific to the race. I recall a post long ago that did give the natural sizes of the different races and they are all over the range, generally with larger bees in colder climates. So why would a larger bee on larger cells be any different than a smaller bee on small cells? Suppositions abound on this subject, and that is what really bothers me. No facts, but great guesses based on the outcome and the guesses do not make sense. If, as the guesses go, it is the smaller cell that crowds the mite (or does whatever), then 1. it is an unnatural cell size for the bee if the reason is crowding 2. if another larger race of bee is used they they should be crowded on something greater than 4.9 but anything above that supposedly does not work 3. but in TBH, natural cell size is used so do bees make smaller cells to make smaller bees? Or is it the race of bee involved? 4. if not, then the bees are not crowded so what is actually happening? 5. is cell size dependent on race (which would seem to be obvious, but who knows). But if it is, then why does 5.0 not work if that is natural for a race? But, according to the proponents of small cell beekeeping, it is 4.9 or bust. As I say, I am confused. Obviously, I need to click my ruby slippers and get back to Kansas. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:29:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I am so glad you spoke up again, Dennis. :) >>They built a broodnest with the same orientation and cell size distribution as did the original small cell bees when put into a tbh. I am also happy to hear that both large and small bees built with the same cell size gradation! Having looked at feral combs from different colonies, I have always felt uncomfortable with 'one size fits all' regardless of what size was given. On the other hand, I understand where commercial beekeepers are coming from. They need as much consistency and R&R (repeatability and reproduceability) as they can get. Hobbyists have somewhat different needs. Everything I've seen and read tells me the vertical hive produces more honey than a horizontal one. It's always nice to be able to harvest the surplus from the bees. My aspiration is to have the bees build a natural nest in standard frames in a vertical hive... The natural nest with its cell size variation allows the bees superior pest and disease control (from what I've seen). And I want frames so I can inspect with ease. :) Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:27:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It is something that was done and documented, then forgotten in it ubiquity. I don't believe it is documented. Small cell people have pointed to a few individuals discussing the subject but all those old books say the same information (and I hope we can not go over the same subject again like a record stuck in one spot): "Five cells to the inch" worker cells "Four cells to the inch" drone cells We have been over and over the subject. Math shows that the size for worker cells at "five cells to the inch" could if your measurements were done a certain way be 4.9mm but most likely the measurement was 5.1 mm. The old masters did not see the need for such a precise cell measurement and neither do I. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:46:35 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Foundationless Systems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>...a foundationless system ... nearly forces you to manage each hive individually. I am not a commercial beekeeper so I don't mind. I'd even number all the frames and observe their relative orientation. Scot, is yours a vertical or a horizontal hive? Do you use frames or top bars? Sorry, I don't recall. >>When the bees are allowed to design their own broodnest structure, the beekeeper is limited in his/her choices. I believe bees know best. :) And I am not looking to break records for honey production. >>Dee might ... explain how she discovered the benefits of small cell beekeeping by using foundationless systems, including top bar hives for observation purposes. Dee, have you ever used frames for a natural nest or heard of frames being used in a vertical set-up? I'd like to learn how to ensure the bees draw out somewhat straight combs in empty frames in a double-deep nest. Imperfections or holes in the comb are not of concern to me. Bees start from from the top and work downwards. I can provide a solid bead of wax under each top bar. Here are my questions: 1. Should they be given 2 deeps with 20 empty frames? 2. Will the gap between the frames of the 2 deeps disturb the natural nest pattern? 3. Perhaps a single, taller-than-Langstrogh deep is the way? 4. Should one inspect occasionally and remove and comb sections that are not straight? I will try this next spring but would like hear of their experiences from folks who may have already tried it. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:43:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Pollution by feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Whether you feed honey, syrup or pollen substitute, no matter the source,if you feed bees that on their own cannot gather enough to feed themselves would not make the cut in the natural selection process, and so as keith says, are allowed to pollute the genetic pool. I assure you these bees can gather enough to survive on their own! "Pollute the genetic pool" Get real! When you are harvesting a part of their stores as is done in commercial beekeeping (to pay the bills) you at times need to feed! The proper use of supplements & feed is an important management tool. Not needed at times but needed at other times. Feed and feeding bees is not cheap! Many beekeepers are of the opinion that feeding fructose hurts the bees. Is not so! Tests have been done over and over on the subject! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:03:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Pollution by feeding > if you feed bees that on their own cannot gather enough to > feed themselves would not make the cut in the natural > selection process, and so as keith says, are allowed to > pollute the genetic pool. This viewpoint appears to ignore the inherent dichotomy between the instinctive goals of bees and the goals of the beekeeper. I will list a few of the more obvious points on the "conflicting agendas": Bees want to build up ON the crop, while beekeepers want to build up their bees FOR the crop, so they feed well before the first blooms, as one cannot expect a colony to build up on nothing. Bees want to gather and store only enough honey to overwinter, while beekeepers want to take some (or most, or all) of that honey, as a "crop", and therefore feed the bees with HFCS or whatever to replace what they took. Bees want to build up the colony so that the hive can swarm. Beekeepers don't like swarming, and try to prevent it. Bees need to be fierce defenders of their brood and stores if they are to survive in their own. Beekeepers want "docile" bees that can be worked without protective gear. The end result is that the "gene pool" for bees that are "productive" and "manageable" has nothing at all to do with the "gene pool" for bees that would do well in a feral situation, where they would be subject to "natural selection". We can't expect our bees to make maximum profit for us without any inputs in the form of management, feed, and medical attention. My bees are not bred to show the traits that would help them survive on their own, they are bred to show the traits that help them be better "livestock" for my purposes. Beekeeping is agriculture, and the moment we started "keeping" bees in boxes, we were imposing our agenda on them. The "keeping" in beekeeping is the "culture" in agriculture. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:35:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Multiple Variables and Small Cells Greetings! Sorry to be such a busy poster, but I have been off the list for several years. Funny how little has changed. I want to contribute one more thing, though. 30 years ago, when I started out with the bees, a wise beekeeper told me this: In a good location, even a terrible beekeeper will succeed. But even an expert beekeeper will fail in a poor location. Ciao! Isis Glass -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:57:18 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Sizes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bill, >>1. it is an unnatural cell size for the bee if the reason is crowding There are two more hypothesis: 1. A lower reproductive rate in the smaller cells. One possible reason mites prefer drone cells is that there is perhaps more room and the mother mite can raise more mite offspring. 2. The larger pupae offer a greater food supply for the mites and result in more mite offspring. >>...why does 5.0 not work if that is natural for a race? If the health of the ferals I have seen is any evidence then just over 5.0 mm seems to be common size in the lower part of the brood combs in my area. We are not out of the woods just yet and we may be headed in the right direction. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:08:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Research Bias MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit .Jerry wrote > Its all about honesty and integrity. Money can have a negative influence, > but if it does, I'll bet the investigator would cook the data for other > purposes, such as getting one more paper out, getting a promotion, etc. > > REAL scientists won't do that. Note, I didn't say shouldn't or scientists > in general -- even though we all know some that do. From my vantage point, > its all about ethics, and you don't deserve the title of Scientist if > you're not ethical. Hello Jerry and All, Real science has to be based on facts. The truth is what your looking for and it takes the proper tests to prove out an idea. In beekeeping we know very little. Man can not see the forest for the trees. Bees are very complex and science is picking up information one piece at a time. It is very important to get the proper facts or you will be led down the wrong path and get lost out into space. I know Jerry does good work. First hand. What he has , should be used in queen breeding. Some day it will. He has an electronic eye on bee behavior. It is a wonderful tool. We have a lot of wonderful scientist working with bees. We have a few that just want a pay check. That's the nature of man as a whole. You can not gain wisdom by cooking the books. Thanks to Jerry and those like him that have been doing GOOD research for us. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:28:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Foundationless Systems In-Reply-To: <20051020.064718.1942.276385@webmail21.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldig writes: Dee, have you ever used frames for a natural nest or heard of frames being used in a vertical set-up? Reply: Yes. Both by us early on in the 1980s and other friends of us. We were all working with own setups and making what we needed/wanted. Then comparing to what was previously written. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:58:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Regressed Bees Scott wrote: Isis, You misunderstand. The enlargement and the pop benefit was that it would increase production. This isn't just an explained idea, its documented with clear chronology when you have access to those antique books and journals. It is something that was done and documented, then forgotten in it ubiquity. I haven't misunderstood a thing. The slightly larger foundation was manufactured to enlarge the workers.Everyone knows workers can bee slightly enlarged by bigger cells, and drones can be stunted by small cells. You may have seen the tiny drones raised in worker comb. However, I have also seen workers raised in drone comb, and they ARE NOT as big as drones. So, there is a limit. It's like the difference between two kids, one who gets excellent food and one who grows up on rice. The one on better food will be bigger, but within certain limits. And none of this, so far as we know, is hereditary. If a hive escapes into the wild, they will build natural comb, according to heir instincts which evolved over hundreds of thousands of years. If the cells were smaller, and this prevented varroa build up, then natural swarms living in trees would not be susceptible to varroa and the wood s would be filled with wild bees. And that is not the case. A wild swarm will go a year or so, and die of varroa. Unless it's Africanized, of course. They seem to do quite nicely. But why do they? Small cells might be a factor, but you would have to rule out other factors, such as climate, and the biting of varroa. So far no one has offered any proof that merely putting regular bees on smaller combs is a reliable varroa control measure. Proof would involve two things: 1) side by side comparison with normal hives and 2) independently verified; especially under different climatic conditions. If you cannot supply this type of proof, you are left with what amounts to faith healing. (Which may work -- how do I know?) Isis Glass -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:29:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Google Earth! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder how many BEE-Lers have discovered Google Earth for observing the layout of their homes, and beeyards, plan trips and vacations, and to just poke around? Google Earth is an interesting way to see inaccessible terrain, nearby industrial areas and much more. Just type in an address or lat and long, and zoom, you're there, looking down from a height of your choosing. I've seen my son's new house and neighbourhood in RI without being there, and looked at beeyards and potential locations, too. The pictures you'll see are anywhere from several months to several years old, however, so don't freak out if you don't see hives on your newer locations -- or if your car is not in the driveway . Also, some regions are only covered with fuzzy pictures, while others have a fair bit of detail. Anyone can download Google Earth for free at http://earth.google.com/. Google Earth is a fair sized download, and uses quite a bit of bandwidth when in use, but I've used it successfully on 28.8 dialup. The program works right away without any tweaking, but there is a learning curve to get the best out of it. It is also to email placemarks to others to share. Here is sample text from such an email: --- You have been sent a Google Earth Placemark(tm). If you have Google Earth installed, you can double-click on the attached Placemark file and it will fly you to a location. If not, you will need to install Google Earth first (available at http://earth.google.com). Google Earth streams the world over wired and wireless networks enabling users to virtually go anywhere on the planet and see places in photographic detail. This is not like any map you have ever seen. This is a 3D model of the real world, based on real satellite images combined with maps, guides to restaurants, hotels, entertainment, businesses and more. You can zoom from space to street level instantly and then pan or jump from place to place, city to city, even country to country. Get Google Earth. Put the world in perspective. earth.google.com --- allen You can't make up anything anymore. The world itself is a satire. All you're doing is recording it. -- Art Buchwald -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:15:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Research and big feet. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I've been lurking and following the talk about research and it woke = up some of my latent education in the subject. I may have something to = contribute. The mind wants straight forward simple answers and since, as = Dee says the hive is an interactive system, the answers must be = holistic. By it's nature research seeks to isolate the thing studied and = hold the others constant. The things we cant account for are called, I = think, confounding variables. The eye of the beholder may be one of = them.=20 I can still hear my professor talking about causality. Just because two = things vary together doesn't mean that one causes the other. If one = studies "tallness" one will determine that the taller a subject is the = larger his feet will be. It's obvious that large feet do not cause = tallness or vice-versa. If mite reduction and small cell beekeeping go together and we = hypothesize that this proves nothing and that the mite reduction is not = "caused" by small cells (the null hypothesis) what direction can your = thinking go in? What else is happening? Reading all the work the small cell people go through with three = regressions and foundationless frames, it's obvious that a lot of new = wax gets made. Bob Harrison and others have said many times that if you = put a swarm of bees on new equipment and don't treat for mites that they = will likely last for two years before perishing. What if it were something about the wax! New wax kills mites! Wow what a = head line! I just toss this out as a way to point out how hard it is to = control for this variable. It's not so silly though. I have it on good = authority that bees add 2-Heptanone to the wax as they build. This is = currently being studied. (I don't think it's secret but don't want to = give the source with out permission). Here's an hypothesis for you. Bees = add this hormone to the wax. It suppresses mite reduction. It fades over = time. New wax reinstates the hormone as part of the hive environment. = That's why keepers in Denmark are successful; that's why bees abscond; = that's why small cell works. I'm pretty skeptical so don't send rockets = but it does make you think doesn't it? Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:46:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feral colonies In-Reply-To: <200510200108.j9K08YLN015243@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let me add one more question to clear up my confusion on all this. Observation first - Dennis' experience has shown bees construct a range of cell sizes, but bee sizes are fairly consistent, with early spring bees being about the same size, large cell or small cell and only later do large cell get bigger than small, but not that much. Small cell get bigger in the summer and fall. So uniform small cell has drawbacks since the bees like a range of cells, even on the same frame! Bees, allowed do do their own thing on THB's make this range of cells. They will "regress" on their own. So it is natural and you get good mite tolerance. Question- So what happened to all the feral bees? Did they not get the word on how to make small cell? But Joe's feral do have small cell. But Joe has had to select from the survivors. But we should be able to leave them alone, since they are on natural small cell. But there are three aspects to small cell beekeeping.... none of which mention small cells. Good thing Halloween is coming soon. I'll be able to sit on the front porch an amaze the kids with my spinning head. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:21:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Sizes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bill, > But, according to the proponents of small cell beekeeping, > it is 4.9 or bust. > This is not true, this is your assumption. > As I say, I am confused. > It is alright to be confused, you have a mind set or paradigm. Bees are to me and many beekeepers very confusing creatures. All is not written in stone just as there will always be a mystery to bees and keeping bees. The mystery and interest in bees and beekeeping keep many beekeepers beekeepers. You, Bill, are an interested and spell bound beekeeper who like many beekeepers are trying to figure it out. If it were not for the mystery and I had it all figured out I would probably move on to a subject that would hold my interest to figure it out. Bees will always be mysterious and that is only one reason why I dearly love bees. I love my wife for many of the same reasons. c]:~)> . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:29:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Pollution by feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim, Most of what Jim just described as the way he sees beekeeping and keeping bees is a paradigm and is not necessarily true, just the way he sees it. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:44:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Research Bias On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 Roy Nettlebeck wrote: "Thanks to Jerry and those like him that have been doing GOOD research for us." I would like to add to Roy's kind works, "thanks to Jerry and others in the world of entomology, botony and other scientific diciplines who take the time to contribute to BEE-L. There have been a lot of folks in the scientific community from the colleges and universities, the USDA, and state organizations whose sharing contributions to BEE-L are significant to beekeeping and help to make tomorrow's news today". Cheers to All, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:27:39 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ahlert Schmidt Subject: Cell size measurements free build combs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi! The ongoing discussion of cell size for bees build by themselves without wax foundation has been discussed on beeL during the last weeks with saying that only 4.9 mm is the natural cell size. I would like to add to that a notion of cell size measurements from 21 swarms without support from a foundation. It was found that the mean of 697 measurements was 5.42 mm, but there was a variety in cell diameters which was not idetntical from one hive to another and it was evidnet as well that the variation within the hives having only natural comb was around 0.3 mm. You can find this paper (in german) with the title: Sind "Naturzellen" größer? by T. Radetzki in: Imkerfreund 2005 (9) page 8 to 9. I hope that such data help to clarify the question of a natural cell size at least in Germany. respectfully submitted Ahlert -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:40:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Sizes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: > Hi Bill, >>But, according to the proponents of small cell beekeeping, >>it is 4.9 or bust. > This is not true, this is your assumption. Dee said that on a recent post. Tried 5.0 and it did not work. Bill -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:21:33 +0100 Reply-To: pencaemawr@ntlworld.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pencaemawr Subject: Re: Multiple Variables and Small Cells In-Reply-To: <20051019192355.67246.qmail@web35003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isis Glass wrote: > Although reproduction of Varroa is > affected by the space between the developing > bee and cell wall, reducing cell sizes as > a mite control method will probably fail to > be effective since the bees are likely to respond > by rearing correspondingly smaller > bees -- Martin > I wonder if this will be so? If we postulate that bees can be persuaded to be a little larger or a little smaller by altering cell sizes up or down, is it not likely that in the larger direction the bee will stop expanding before it fully fills the enlarged cell, and in the smaller direction even if the bee down-sizes it will always remain a tight fit in the cell? Ihope this makes sense! Do you have more details of steve martin's work in this area? Regards, John Burgess -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:23:04 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Regressed Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>A wild swarm will go a year or so, and die of varroa. I think that's a perception that is not accurate. I refer to Tom Seeley's reports from the woods of upstate NY. The ferals I've retrieved this year were thriving and swarming - a sign of healthy reproduction in the wild. I've had managed colonies go up to 3 years without treatments other than screen bottom before being close to collapse. The last two years were marked with deformed wings. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:33:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Foundationless Systems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dee, >>We were all working with own setups and making what we needed/wanted. I was hoping you'd elaborate on the the set-ups details. Did you try what I'd like to do - put shaken bees into a Langstroth double deep hive with empty frames. The frames could have cell-less starter beads only. If the bees built a natural nest in this set-up, did you put it back in the same order as it was prior to inspecting? I'd like to learn of your experience both positive and negative. Thanks, Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:22:51 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Feral colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bill, I can only relay my thinking and observations. >>...bees construct a range of cell sizes, but bee sizes are fairly consistent... This can't be said. In my managed hives with their consistent cell size, I see bees of different sizes through out the season. It stems from feed availability, slowed growth due to parasites etc. Some of my late summer workers have abdomens close in size to a queen's abdomen! I am sure you've seen it as well. >>with early spring bees being about the same size, large cell or small cell and only later do large cell get bigger than small... I have not said smaller cells result in smaller bees. I have not seen data to that effect. I know bees feed heavily on pollen after emergence and continue to grow. I don't know how much but I am sure it varies from bee to bee. >>So uniform small cell has drawbacks since the bees like a range of cells, even on the same frame! Now, that's an interesting proposition! Small cell foundation dictates higher uniformity - in my mind, there's no absolute uniformity - and may not be best for bees. This seems to be supported by the reported losses in down-sizing - a relatively small percentage survives the process. Bees left to themselves, will construct a range of cell sizes on the natural comb. To me, providing any size foundation may be desireable but it is not natural. Not that everything needs to be natural and we should not get hang up on buzz words. We should select words carefully. I have not seen any evidence, whether one talk about humans, Angus cows or European honey bees, that cell size or nutrition alters their DNA. BTW, I don't see bees as thoroughbreds, mongrels, and everything in between. There are races of bees and their crosses with different characteristics. Some are suitable to certain areas others are not. Some hybrids don't seem to fare well in any areas... But that's nature with any species. >>What happened to all the feral bees? I can't say what happened to all of them but the ones I am seeing at this time seem to be doing well on their own. If one wanted to be cynical, one could speculate that most ferals disappeared because they robbed out mite-infested MANAGED hives in the fall... ;-)) Perhaps this kind of varroa pressure has brought out the few feral survivors that are now reproducing and, hopefully, repopulating in many areas? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:06:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell (was,,, SC Test 2002-2004 Nor,,,) In-Reply-To: <20051019113546.5910.qmail@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- "J. Waggle" wrote: > Reffering Allen Dick's comments: > > For the record, I count John's SMR work as a huge > > success, and really good work. > > It seems like your are attempting to elude that > someone that questions is doing something wrong or > insulting. I don't think any questioning of any > one's findings should be taken personally!!!! I, personally, don't reguard Allen's comment as an endictment against another's questioning. To me it just seems to be a personal comment about what he personally supports, just as you support your stance on small cell beekeeping with your comments on BEE-L. I take your comments as a stance taken by you personally and one in which you are completely comfortable in supporting. Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:49:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan & Jan Subject: Re: Research Bias MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the ways you can reduce bias in observations is to have someone else read the data. In that way He/she does not know what the treatments are. We used to do this in turf trials for grubs in Ohio. The University would put out the treatments, in August all the commercial technical reps would evaluate the plots by digging grubs and recording the results. I will tell you that this method kept you honest. If you dug "your plot" you would not know it. You did not know if it was your treatment or your compactors. Honesty was "enforced" by this method. We all awaited the final results by the end of the day. If the plots you dug were the poorest, the bias would be upward, unless you thought it was a competitors treatment, if the best, could it be your competitors? This worked great as no one knew the treatments until the end of the dig. Final data was statistically analyzed and the final report was forwarded in about a week Dan Veilleux Boone area In the Mountains of NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:27:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Regression questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have nagging doubts and reservations about what "regression" really entails. Contrary to what someone on this list said recently about bees "growing" after emerging from the cell, unlike vertebrates, insects don't "grow" once they are adults. They also have the ability to vary the adult size based on the available resources. This is common in most if not all insects. When I am "playing" with SHB I see individuals, raised on short rations, that are apparently "functional" but are also 50-75% the size of their "normal" relatives. This is not to say they are as prolific but they are apparently capable of producing offspring none the less. When the opportunity recurs, I'll have to test that assumption. What portion of "regression" is genetic and what role does environment, i.e. cell size, play? Is anyone aware of any actual research? Mention has been made of moving bees "down", then back "up", and then back "down" on different size foundation, was any sampling, i.e. measurements, done? Was their size compared to non-regressed bees in the same locale and under the same management system? It occurs to me that, if "fully regressed" bees were placed on commercial foundation and there was a genetic component,regarding size, to the difference between these "regressed" bees and the bees out of commercially produced queens, there should be a statistically significant difference in size. It may not be great but none the less there should be some difference. No one seems to talk about drone cell size when they are throwing out cell measurements, has this been tracked? Is there a consistent relationship? In other words, if you graph the data from various size "races", not mention "regressed bees, do you get two parallel lines or do they have different slopes? In a similar vein, the size of viable queen cells can vary all over the place during a single event and within a single hive. Someone must have analyzed the relationship of cell size to the size of the queen produced by the cell but I can't recall a reference off the top of my head. Most of the improvement, genetic and environmental, in queens, aside from colour, etc., as I recall, has been aimed at increased ovariole counts. Any of these questions might serve as the basis for a "backyard" research proposal and would not require "high tech" equiptment or "deep pockets". Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:26:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Nicholas Doumanoff Subject: Italians vs. Carniolans Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed This was my first year with two hives in Warwick New York. I would like to add four hives next year, then four after that, etc. until we end up with about 20 hives. I currently have All Stars from B.Weaver but am now considering what variety would be best for me. I have not had the pleasure of seeing my bees overwinter yet, but am doing my best to give them a good shot. The two hives did very well for me, considering I did end up with 120 pounds of honey total from the two hives. I did need to replace one of the queens, as that hive was extremely aggressive by mid summer. My question is: What would be the best bee for my area? Is the swarming tendency of the Carniolans outweighed by the earlier foraging? Is the large Italian population outweighed by their trouble of overwintering? Every time I read about the pros and cons of these two varieties I come up with a different conclusion. Any comments and advice would be helpful. Thanks, Nick Warwick, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 17:58:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Feral colonies In-Reply-To: <4357ADD5.7080406@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bill Truesdell wrote: > Question- So what happened to all the feral bees? > Did they not get the word on how to make small cell? Good Question! In my location,,, My personal opinion is that most of the bees folks call ferals have too much domestic influence of large cell type to be considered feral as I define them to be. The practice of beekeepers shipping in bees year after year that are not acclimatized to the area has played havoc on any natural adaptation that that may be trying to occur. So even during pre varrroa times, the breeding pool of smaller celled ferals was being diluted year after year by the constant influx of non acclimatized large cell types. The artificial propping up of these domestic bees by use of treatments only served to magnify the influence of non acclimatized, treatment dependent genetics in my area. Also had the effect of influencing acclimated feral cell sizes larger and disrupting natural adaptation making some of the ferals unfit to survive in this climate. IMO, the percentage of "feral" bees with minimal domestic influence may have numbered below 25% of the total "feral" population before the collapse. The official estimate is that the feral population has be decimated by 90%. During the great crashes here in PA during 95-96, my swarm calls/bee removal calls went from 40 or more per season to 1 or 2 for several years. Now, 'same as any other bee disease', small cell DOES NOT make them immune to mites, there is a certain about of weeding out of the genetically unfit as would be any other disease. But in the time of the immediate recovery (late 90's into early 00's) every bee removal that I did was smaller type bees. The small cell ferals were hit, but were the first to recover in the wild. ...But Joe has had to select from the > survivors. Survivors by 'my definition', are bees survived several years with varroa in beeyards from lines purchased from the commercial breeders. I have NONE of these that I know of, because I choose the feral line, I killed off every queen suspected of being domestic regardless of performance several years ago. > ...there are three aspects to small cell > beekeeping.... none of which mention small cells. If I am correct, the 3/3's are: environment is 1/3, diet is 1/3, and breeding is 1/3. Environment would include small cell size to fit the local climate. The 3/3's interplay here,,, Breeding from small cell improves the health of the bee which enhances nutritional foraging diet and helps in acclimatizing to local environment. Which intern once acclimatized, improves diet and helps stabilize them on small cell, which intern as the become more fit improves diet and breeding,,,, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:40:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit is the bees have got no memory of cell size then > why would they not simply draw 4.9mm. right away when given the 4.9mm > pattern? > Follow the pattern girls! They do with 5.1 clear up to 5.4 mm. WHY NOT > WHEN I think the problem here in the US is that we have not fully converted to the metric system and my bees can't read a metric ruler, so about 5 per inch seems to be work most of the time. Marc Studebaker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:02:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Sizes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bill, > >>But, according to the proponents of small cell beekeeping, > >>it is 4.9 or bust. > > > This is not true, this is your assumption. > > Dee said that on a recent post. Tried 5.0 and it did not work. > Sorry to have to string so many quotes together but I hope it will help to defuse a typical trend that some exponents of small cell beekeeping have. Dee is only one proponent of small cell beekeeping (SCB) and 5.0 did not work for her with her bees race and the region her bees are in. I am a proponent of SCB even though I try not to advocate that everyone must to it. It was an assumption that proponents of SCB all think exactly alike. It may be true that 5.0 did not work for Dee but this is not the case for other proponents of SCB. There is a whole range of proponents of small cell or natural cell beekeepers from those that use naturally drawn combs that are as little as 4.7mm and bigger to those that use comb based on 4.9mm foundation. 4.9mm is not the only small cell size that proponents of SCB use. Bob Harrison, in my opinion is a SCB, as he himself admits to using a much smaller brood cell than the typical 5.4mm that many exponents of SCB use. I think even Dee is not stuck on 4.9mm., she refers to the foundation she makes, that have the bottom of the cell imprinted without the sidewall beginnings as most foundation has, as 4.9mm top tolerance. This means that while using this home made foundation as the bees are regressing they, the bees, can choose t! o go slightly larger or slightly smaller depending on race or region. All the cells in a SCB'ers hives are not just one particular size but a range of cell sizes just like in nature. She explains in keeping bees on a natural system that the beekeeper should follow the bees needs by observation and make adjustments according to what they need. Heck, who am I to argue with a bee who knows more about beekeeping than I or anyone else. It appears to me that some, not all, exponents of SCB are trying to put SCB in one tiny box and really it is not one tiny box at all but a whole range of box types. Small cell beekeepers, in a sense, are keeping bees outside the box of that most other beekeepers are keeping their bees in. You know, like a person standing outside the box so they can be progressive. SCB is being proactive instead of reactive. These are my opinions, please do not slice me apart if you do not understand. c]:~)> . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:58:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I refer to Tom Seeley's reports from the woods of upstate NY. Tom is trying to record how long his ferals have really been in those trees. Dann Purvis keeps me posted as he talks with Tom and hopes to be able to get a few queens for us to test. If I remember from the conversation Tom is in the second year of following those *marked* swarms. I am not sure of the way he determines if the old swarm has died and a new swarm has taken his place. Tom has taken a bunch of guff from researchers and many beekeepers because until he is able to prove how long those ferals have been in the tree his findings mean little. Give me one of those supposedly varroa tollerant ferals and I will let you know in a single season how well they handle varroa. A DNA and maybe wing venation might provide information about the swarm. For example if the swarm is carniolan and a commercial beekeeper with only carniolans is a few miles down the road then most likely mystery solved! If the bees are Russian and supposed to have been in the tree for over ten years then mystery solved. Today I went to another city to pick up my share of boxed plastic bears from a packer with another beekeeper (we go together with the packer and buy a truck load) The beekeeper as we were crossing country would point to an area he had a yard. I would do the same. Near the town of Lone Jack, Missouri we had yards almost on top of each other. Both of us thought we were miles from each other! I have got a new yard near the Maple Leaf conservation area. As I was driving around the lake I saw a yard of hives which I could not see before the corn was harvested. Not sure who owns the yard. I will not use my yard next year but those hives are a mile from me. I know the area close to my home yard as the land parcels are large and I am on a first name basis with the owners. The above are locations 15-25 miles from the home base. My point is that one never knows the hives for sure in your area. I have quite a few yards but I have got only three which can be seen from roads but all the rest are hidden from the road. I would bet money in a weeks time you could not find half my yards unless you did a fly over (which is the way to make sure of yards in your area). We have told Tom S. of the common commercial beekeeper method but have never seen in print he ever took our advice. >The ferals I've retrieved this year were thriving and swarming - a sign of healthy reproduction in the wild. I would love to believe you but ferals are the big unknown. >I've had managed colonies go up to 3 years without treatments other than screen bottom before being close to collapse. The last two years were marked with deformed wings. Next fall will tell the story. I would consider hives which have survived 3 years as possible survivors (even with deformed wings). To select further I would add two full frames of drone comb and leave all next season. Most likely all will crash but if a single hive survives I would raise queens from the survivor. Dann Purvis would raise queens from the survivor even if showing signs by then of PMS (with added varroa pressure) but I would not but I have to admit Dann has come up with a better varroa tolerant bee than I did so not sure what's the best course to take. PMS is the big unknown in my opinion. I have seen hives with a low varroa count crashing with PMS! Normal migratory beekeeping and feeding before the main flow might be enough for PMS to raise its ugly head in those hives but you have got a start Waldemar Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:13:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Multiple Variables and Small Cells Comments: To: pencaemawr@ntlworld.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I wonder if this will be so? Elbert R. Jaycox did research prior to 1976 on bees emerging from different size cells. He wrote in his book "Beekeeping in the Midwest" that bees can raise a bee up to 17% smaller and up to 17% larger for the standard for the bee tested. The big *unknown* was if the size was simply controlled by cell size or did the bees care for the bees differently and vary the food given the brood! We know any fertilized egg can become a queen (perfect insect) though nutrition and different gland secretions than the worker bee. This is the BIG unknown factor in the discussion! Can the nurse bees control the size of the bee to match cell size? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri "If the queen is a perfect insect does it mean all workers are imperfect?" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:37:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Regressed Bees In-Reply-To: <012701c5d4c9$1adc3000$b77ba8c0@Nemo> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Oct 19, 2005, at 12:17 PM, allen dick wrote: >> > > Opinons are not facts. Facts are what we like best here on BEE-L, > but we do > find opinions interesting. Nonetheless, this opinion seems to be > at odds > with the facts, at least if we are talking about the DNA involved in > heredity. Others can -- and will -- comment, I am fairly sure. Recently, I've used the delete button quite a bit. The discussion on cell size and its spinoffs has pitted facts against opinions, such that I had had enough. I made several exceptions to my deletions, however. When Dave Cushman posted I read every word. I see him sitting across from me having lunch at a pub in Dublin Ireland although I know that he is in his computer room, which he described to me. Chris Slade, who talks about his top bar hives, among other things, was with us. I became interested in TBHs at Apimondia. I talked to Allen Dick briefly in Niagara Falls a few years ago. He has visited Dee Lusby and presents first hand Knowledge of her work. Whether you agree with their views or not, the postings of people you have met are much more personal. Attend meetings shake hands and go out of your way to find Bee-L friends on your travels. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N PS I still owe you a pint, Aaron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:52:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Regressed Bees In-Reply-To: <200510201629.j9KFRpWQ025171@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > small cell DOES NOT make them immune to mites, there is a certain about of weeding out of the genetically unfit as would be any other disease. Thanks Joe. So.... that was my problem then, huh? A few weeks ago, I’d posted that mites had wreaked havoc in my one small cell that had bees in it for two full seasons. You mentioned my problem was that I had failed to, as you said, “stabilize” the bees after they’d been on small cell for several generations. I’m sure many have heard that the moon is made out of green cheese. Well, it’s not as preposterous as it sounds: http://www.planetfusion.co.uk/~pignut/cheese.html Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:02:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Getting colonies up to weight. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The joys of preparing honey bees to get through winter is a new activity for me - Second season here in southern Manitoba, Canada. Since the climate dictates that bees will be hive bound from the beginning of November to the beginning of April (average dates), they have to have adequate carbohydrate stores. It is considered reasonable to have 90lbs (40 kg) ripened and tucked away per colony. After the Canola nectar flow and supers removed, brood boxes tend to be light / near empty of stores. Brood is still being produced. Colony starvation is at this period in time (End of August/Early Sept) easily achieved. Hence, individuals choice of sugar supplies are fed via. various techniques. Wise voices suggest 5 gallons of properly prepared material per colony. During the last two years I have noticed that many colonies do put the liquid away, gain weight and are pleasant to lift to one side. Moving through an apiary, mental conversation mutters - "ah! that's real full", or "how did they pack all that into that small box". Visit the same boxes 14+ days later and when testing the weight, often a loss has occurred. To the extent that 2+ gallons have to be put back on to feed to get the required weight. The fall period has allowed continuous flying, late pollen collection, drone destruction and population reduction as summer bees fly off to the great sunflower in the sky. I wonder if others have noticed a trend in increased requirements to get colonies up to winter weight. My stocks are based on Kona Carnolians (2004) and local selected Queens bred for our climatic imitation of being in a freezer with the light on! Regards, Peter Pembina Valley Central Southern Manitoba -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:08:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Pollution by feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Get real! Is that necessary? >When you are harvesting a part of their stores as is done in commercial >beekeeping (to pay the bills) you at times need to feed! Bob, This exactly what we weren't discussing. Since you are harvesting more than surplus you have to feed and yes those bees are producing just fine. What keith and I were talking about was feeding bees unable to produce enough for themselves let alone a harvest. I am sure you would cull that line right there. Although we may not agree on diet, I am willing to not discuss that and therfore diet wasn't really oar of the discussion. The topic was about propping up a line of bees that wouldn’t make it on there own. Surely you can understand the impact of constant artificial inclusion of failing genes in the pool. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:18:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sizes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, These are my opinions, please do not slice me apart if you do not understand. c]:~)> I believe the last few days of discussion on small cell has been the best so far. Useful information on the subject surely has been gleaned by all. Opinions is about all we have got as we are discussing complicated beekeeping areas which even many researchers don't visit very often. "Beekeeping is both simple and complicated at the same time" Bob Harrison Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:06:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Regressed Bees In-Reply-To: <200510201629.j9KFRpWQ025171@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: So far no one has offered any proof that merely putting regular bees on smaller combs is a reliable varroa control measure. Proof would involve two things: 1) side by side comparison with normal hives and 2) independently verified; especially under different climatic conditions. Reply: Interesting you saying this! Not knowing what you mean by regular bees, assuming size here I will say: If 5.4mm is now considered average sizing (though it is known that some beekeepers use foundation sized up to 5.9mm now)and we have sized down our bees onto 4.9mm top tolerance sizing, and as stated before it was the only thing different we have done in our field management thru two regressions, (steps down in size, as each step can only go down .2mm to .3mm each time max normally), and most around us have crashed using the 5.4mm average due to mites (first trachael, then compounded by varroa), and we now going on 10 years later in 2006, then having about 900 colonies and finishing off in the next year or so going back to 1,000 is not proof enough. The 5.4mm colonies now crashed/gone being the other group side by side in apiaries locally. You said above: Proof would involve two things: 1) side by side comparison with normal hives and 2) independently verified; especially under different climatic conditions Me again: I guess the local side by side comparison with normal hives of others not making it is not enough. But you add more in 2) independently verified; with different climatic conditions. So then here I guess what Hans-Otto Johnsen is doing with his 600 now hives might/could/may help here in clarification, besides the overall test being done in Norway. Others are doing it in other countries too I might add (Germany being one), not to mention several beekeepers here in the USA like Joe in Penn. Of course we are talking foundation here and NOT TBHs for usage. What this said I will stop. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:28:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Pollution by feeding In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Scot Mc Pherson wrote: > The detriment is in supporting lines of genetics > that would otherwise have 'been' removed. ....if > you feed bees that on their own cannot gather enough > to feed themselves would not make the cut in the > natural selection process, and so as keith says, are > allowed to pollute the genetic pool. The point that I saw was that commercial beekeepers, and others, took most of the honey stored by the bees, including that which they would have utilized over the winter, and sold it. The honey sold more than repaid the beekeepers for the subsequent syrups that they then fed to the colonies to carry them through the winter. They made more money robbing the bees and then feeding them than they would have made if they had left the necessary stores which the bees had collected and stored to carry them through the winter. The bees had stored enough to carry them through the winter and build up in the spring plus surplus for the beekeeper. The beekeeper just didn't let the colonies keep that extra honey. At least that is my understanding of why a lot of beekeepers feed honey to their colonies in the fall. Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:26:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: Feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waggle writes; >>>So even during pre varrroa times, the breeding pool of smaller celled ferals was being diluted year after year by the constant influx of non acclimatized large cell types.<<< I don't think the data support your view. I seem to recall a study done, I think out of USDA Tucson or Weslaco, which studied the feral population. I think it was based on or included DNA and found that the feral populations were fairly distinct from managed colonies. I almost would say it was in ABJ and predated the arrival of AHB. I think they were establishing a data base for later use with AHB and it may have concerned only the southwest border area. I seem to recall that the feral MtDNA was largely Iberian in origin. Is there someone out there with a better memory than me? Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:42:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Multiple Variables and Small Cells In-Reply-To: <000d01c5d5e5$14f11c60$18bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison writes: This is the BIG unknown factor in the discussion! Can the nurse bees control the size of the bee to match cell size? Reply: IMPOV from following our bees now since the early 1980s thru two regressions down, and paralleling it to information read in archives (the path sizing up then in reverse is the path to follow back down), I would have to say YES the nurse bees control the size of the bee to match the cell size(like royal jelly can vary by bee size, not talking caste here), determined by the size of the thorax, but only to a certain extent with a range of say .1mm to .3mm for each step up or each step down in sizing.Here looking at work of Rothenbueler (sp not sure of here while typing)and Egypt (project done together if I am remembering correctly concerned royal jelly and size of cells), and Roy Grout's unpublished Cell Size Thesis would be good to read I would think, putting the information in the two together. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:10:37 +0200 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Sizes In-Reply-To: <435799D4.6080707@suscom-maine.net> A friend of mine was in Brasil (Sao Paulo) and bring back to Sweden a matchbox of (dead) bees. To my knowledge - bees in Brasil are africanized and in Brasil are beekeepers not using 4,9 mm cells (= bees are not regressed = resized by purpose). Bees from Brasil compared to his and mine carnica were dwarfs. \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 00:41:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: What I Like Most About BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, friends, this is a huge topic, but there is one thing I particularly like and that is this: I keep old BEE-L messages and read them over sometimes, just for fun when I need an idea or a chuckle. Sometimes, I'll even do an archive search, since I don't keep BEE-L messages for more than a year or so back. Whether on my computer, or in the archives, I can sort by author and read a whole series of posts and get to know each writer. I learn how well read and/or experienced each person is and how logical, honest and consistent as well. It is fascinating to see how different people respond to challenges and how some learn and develop, and some, apparently, do not. It is also interesting to speculate what motivates each writer. Obviously, we are not all the same, and our objectives are at times wildly divergent. What we do have in common is that we all have bees or work with them, but that is about it. For me, personally, BEE-L has been a journey of self-discovery, a chance to consult and debate with people with a common interest. As a result BEE-L, I have friends all over the world I may never have met otherwise. BEE-L has also made me into a far better beekeeper than I would have been on my own, and probably a better human being -- although some may dispute that last point. For self analysis, there is nothing more humbling than reading a decade of your own writing. For those who have not tried this, I recommend it highly. Just go to http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l and search by your own email address in the "author's address" box, without entering anything in the other boxes. And -- also -- some may wish to read back over the most recent debate here at http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html, sort by author, and trace the comments of each. I find it fascinating -- and illuminating. allen The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously. -- Hubert H. Humphrey -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 04:23:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/10/05 01:04:14 GMT Daylight Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> I had a couple of colonies with the odd bee showing deformed wings this year, in their second season since the last treatment. I let them go all summer, then treated. Unfortunately I wasn't able to count up the mitefall due to illness, but it wasn't excessive. I'll be repeating this, and hopefully I'll be in a fit state to do it properly next time! I noticed that the dead mites slowly disappeared from the trays; I assume this was due to ants, which are always present in ones and twos. I wouldn't rely on mitefall counts being accurate if the trays are left for more than a very few days. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:06:33 +0100 Reply-To: pencaemawr@ntlworld.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pencaemawr Subject: Re: Regressed Bees In-Reply-To: <3DDF73E0-4C91-4B4B-9C93-38A1C6E6C3F0@interlog.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bob darrell wrote: When Dave Cushman posted I read every word. > I see him sitting across from me having lunch at a pub in Dublin > Ireland although I know that he is in his computer room, which he > described to me. http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/newhome.html to see dave in his computer room -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 04:01:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Getting colonies up to weight. In-Reply-To: <43585A4F.6050303@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Peter Dillon wrote: ...Visit the same boxes 14+ days later and when testing the weight, often a > loss has occurred. To the extent that 2+ gallons > have to be put back > on to feed to get the required weight. It s possible that you may have been weighing the 'nectar weight'. A colony may collect 300 up to 500 pounds of nectar per season. Same as in nectar, this syrup would take several days to dry and consolidate the stores. Added ventilation will aid in this process. > I wonder if others have noticed a trend in increased > requirements to get > colonies up to winter weight. I have not noticed this, but I do find that the position of the cluster going into winter can be an important factor in ease of cluster movement in consuming stores. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 04:14:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Regressed Bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dick Allen wrote: > A few weeks ago, I’d posted that mites had wreaked > havoc in my one > small cell that had bees in it for two full seasons. > You mentioned my > problem was that I had failed to, as you said, > “stabilize” the bees > after they’d been on small cell for several > generations. Yes I did say that! A few generations of stabilization would serve to acclimatise your bees to fit the environment (reference Brother Adam) and set into the cell size better. This would also serve to dilute the un fit genetics. IMO, this can be tougher to do in areas where there are no ferals or too many un acclimatized drones flying around. Bob Harrison said it right, "Beekeeping is both simple and complicated at the same time" > http://www.planetfusion.co.uk/~pignut/cheese.html nice link Dick! Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 04:21:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Regressed Bees In-Reply-To: <003d01c5d5e2$e3ae3fe0$18bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: > PMS is the big unknown in my opinion. I have seen > hives with a low varroa > count crashing with PMS! > Yes, have seen this also. Bob, is there a selection test for breeding PMS resistance? Or is it simply breeding form colonies that do not exhibit PMS? Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 07:55:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Research and big feet. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/10/05 03:23:53 GMT Daylight Time, dickm@SNET.NET writes: <> How old is the comb in some of Dee's hives now? If success depended on a fading hormone, surely it would have faded in at least some of them by this time. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:30:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Regression questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Contrary to what someone on this list said recently about bees "growing" after emerging from the cell, unlike vertebrates, insects don't "grow" once they are adults. I read about this in Winston or Seeley - I was only talking about newly emerged bees. I often look at 'wet' newly emerged bees next to adults on the same frames. They are smaller. Sure the hair will stand up and make the insect look larger but it also seems that the exoskeleton expands as they put on additional weight. They same goes for newly emerged butterflies etc. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:59:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Regressed Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Tom ... until he is able to prove how long those ferals have been in the tree ... As I recall his articles in Bee Culture, there are no beekeepers in the vicinity of the woods he's been studying. Of course, swarming leaves the majority of mites behind in the old nest. Perhaps these ferals survive by swarming. There can be several factors involved in the survival. A combo may be needed for survival. I am fascinated by the fact that Tom reported finding more ferals from year to year. Either his technique is getting better :) or they are indeed expanding. >>Give me one of those supposedly varroa tollerant ferals and I will let you know in a single season how well they handle varroa. In a managed apiary? I have put feral queens on Pierco frames and varroa got the upper hand within 3 years. I think the undisturbed natural nest is a key factor. I like the bitten mites in the fall Dennis reported. I rarely see damaged mites in my hives. >>... one never knows the hives for sure in your area. This is true. The same goes for the ferals I am sure. >>I would love to believe you but ferals are the big unknown. Bob. I am only reporting my findings which, although encouraging, are not statistically significant. >>I would consider hives which have survived 3 years as possible survivors (even with deformed wings). My hives at the end of the 3rd season amounted to a single deep full of bees. I had to use OA or they would not make it to the next season. >>...I would add two full frames of drone comb and leave all next season. Most likely all will crash... I believe mine would crush with so much drone comb. I am planning to set up an outyard specifically for feral queens I'll get. I'll start out with standard foundation and try different attempts at inspectable natural nests in vertical equipment... I may be chasing my tail with this. But looking for the holy grail is fun... and educational. >>Dann Purvis would raise queens ... even if showing signs by then of PMS (with added varroa pressure) but I would not. Are you at the point with any of your bees where they survive with this kind of varroa pressure from season to season? >>PMS is the big unknown in my opinion. I have seen hives with a low varroa count crashing with PMS! Sounds like it would be best to attack the virus instead of the mite. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:47:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have checked and IBRA have copies of the Journal of Apicultural Reseach paper they can be reached at www.ibra.org.uk they do not have the Apicultural Conference proceedings. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Waggle" > > Would be interesting reading if one of the members > that may have access could locate these two > manuscripts. > > ---------- > > "A COMPARATIVE STUDY OF THE EXTERNAL MORPHOLOGY OF THE > PROTHORACIC AND THE PROPODEAL SPIRACLES IN FOUR > STRAINS OF Apis mellifera (L.). POSSIBLE RESISTANCE > MECHANISM AGAINST THE TRACHEAL MITE Acarapis woodi > (R.)" > > Theophilidis G., Hatjina F., Gregorc A. , Pappas N. > Zacharioudakis St. , Thrasyvoulou A. Proceedings of > The 1st Hellenic Scientific Conference in > Apiculture-Sericulture 150-158 (2002). > > ----------- > > "DIFFERENCES IN THE MORPHOLOGY OF PROTHORACIC AND > PROPODEAL SPIRACLES IN THREE STRAINS OF APIS MELLIFERA > : POSSIBLE RELATION TO RESISTANT AGAINST ACARAPIS > WOODI." > > Fani Hatjina Ales Gregorc, Chrisovalantis > Papaefthimiou, Nickolaos Pappas, Stylianos > Zacharioudakis, Andreas Thrasyvoulou, George > Theophilidis, > J. APIC. RES (2004) 43(3): -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:01:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Scot Mc Pherson Subject: Re: Multiple Variables and Small Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >In a good location, even a terrible beekeeper will succeed. But even an >expert beekeeper will fail in a poor location. Isis, Too true, location is a key part of the diet portion of whole beekeeping. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:14:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: FDA Approves TYLAN Soluble for the Control of American Foulbrood in Honey Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.fda.gov/cvm/CVM_Updates/honeybee.htm Note, this is the announcement, not the label. I have yet to see a = label, and as always, the label is the law! =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:44:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: What I Like Most About BEE-L What I Like Most About BEE-L? (1) IT IS. (2) IT WAS. (See the archives) (3) THE LIST OWNER IS ALSO THE JANITOR. (Thank God) (4) EXPERIENCED LEARNED WRITERS. (5) A GOOD POST IS ONE THAT YOU CAN LEAN ON; IT WILL TAKE THE WEIGHT OF TIME. (6) ANYONE CAN DANCE. (Almost) Cheers, chuck -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:59:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Some common ground In-Reply-To: <001301c5d5ee$10aaf820$08bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is only one good evaluation of small cell beekeeping that I have seen to date, and that is Dennis' research at: http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/sxpe.htm There is a lot of reinventing his wheel going on here so I strongly suggest a look at what he has found. It should clarify things a bit. There is much more there than just small cell but also bee measurements, seasonal adjustments by the bees, and the range of cell sizes on a frame and the different patterns from frame to frame. It is a lot more complex than 4.9. There is something to small cell beekeeping, but obviously it is not just the small cells. It could be just forcing Varroa into worker sized cells when they prefer drone and something is triggered in the bee to cull out the Varroa. Or it could be the seasonal size of the bee coupled with the larger or smaller cells and the queens laying pattern. It could be a combination of the two. Or it could be something else. There is a lot going on that we just do not know. The problem is, and I realize some may think that I am going to take one more whack at the horse, without definitive research we still do not know what it is. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:07:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: For the moderators In-Reply-To: <001301c5d5ee$10aaf820$08bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Way back when, I thought we did away with the vanity quotes at the end of a post because they were getting a bit political or possibly offensive to some. I note that they have started again. They are not offensive, but you are letting the camel's head into the tent. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine "Finding the truth is a search that ends at Allen's door. Or was it Aaron's. I always get them mixed up. Oh, yeah, Aaron is the handsome one. Or is that Murray? Boy, thing can get confusing in old age." Paris Hilton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:46:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Pollution by feeding Keith said: > Most of what Jim just described as the way he sees beekeeping > and keeping bees is a paradigm and is not necessarily true, > just the way he sees it. While you may not share some of the listed "beekeeper agenda" with the rest of us, I think that the goals are common enough to be considered "universal" among beekeepers. The points of "agenda" listed for bees are all very basic points of inherent bee behavior, well-documented by the literature. Focused discussion of specific bee behavior would be required to convince anyone that they were not "universal generalized truths" about bees. So, which are the specific points with which you take issue? Scott said: > The bees had stored enough to carry them through the winter Assuming a "normal" winter, whatever that might be. Fail to predict the winter, and you too will be forced to feed, or face starvation dead-outs. > and build up in the spring There's only one problem with this assumption - the actual "build up" does not get rolling at full speed until fresh nectar and pollen are coming into the hive. Stores, no matter what the quantity available, simply won't do the job, so one must do "simulative feeding" of syrup and fresh frozen pollen to make a significant increase in the bee population in a timely manner for either pollination or a decent spring crop. A rational beekeeper is forced to draw the conclusion that early spring feeding is required regardless of "conditions", meaning that he both plans to feed and plans to leave less on the hives because he plans to feed in spring. > plus surplus for the beekeeper. The beekeeper just didn't > let the colonies keep that extra honey. It follows from the above that there is no "supporting lines of genetics that would otherwise have removed" (the initial claim that started this thread) going on in this scenario, as the bees DID gather enough for their purposes, and the sole "problem" is that the beekeeper harvested "too much". Don't forget that a hive that produces significantly less than other hives would be requeened after the first flow due to low early-season production in all but the most "leave alone" operation. Beekeepers want strong colonies that make lots of honey. To claim that there is a potential for genetic "pollution" that might result from different management practices is to fall under the spell of Lamarckism and its discredited theory of "inheritance of acquired traits". -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:09:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Regressed Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >My hives at the end of the 3rd season amounted to a single deep full of bees. I had to use OA or they would not make it to the next season. I understand completely. One of my first feral survivor colonies came out of a horse barn. Even though done years ago I still have all the pictures. The colony was said to have survived at least five years by the owner. I carefully removed the small colony and placed the four frames of brood in frames held by rubber bands. I placed the colony outside my back door. I monitored varroa loads. The colony never much grew in size, always had a varroa load, no tracheal mite problems, NO PMS OR DEFORMED WINGS , but never could gather enough honey to survive a winter. The first fall I had to add frames of honey for the colony to survive the winter. I called the hive my *pet hive*. I always kept the entrance reduced. One year they needed a second box but never filled it so I reduced the colony back into a single for winter. One year they swarmed a very small swarm and I recovered the original marked queen and placed next to the old hive which requeened. Sad ending: Two years ago I had over a hundred Italian hives on the hill and they robbed both hives out despite the reduced entrance. The Italian bees had been up all day trying to rob at the building. I saw what was happening and tried to intervene but to no avail. Most of the bees were dead from the small hives and I found both marked queens dead! Keith & Scot would say not to breed from the colony because the hive could not gather enough honey for a hard Missouri winter. Their small colony size was the problem. The queen was black and not prolific. I saw a hive which could tolerate varroa without PMS & deformed wings. I looked at those bees like my 12 year Yugo survivors. Possibly a good choice for a hybrid. Maybe not. Now I will never know. Procrastination cost me! >>...I would add two full frames of drone comb and leave all next season. Most likely all will crash... >I believe mine would crush with so much drone comb. The added varroa pressure is a test! Nothing more! A race car at idle proves nothing! Will the car hold together at 200 MPH for 500 miles is the question. I would not switch my operation over to a line of bees with claimed varroa tolerance without doing the test. > But looking for the holy grail is fun... and educational. Hard work if done correctly. >Are you at the point with any of your bees where they survive with this kind of varroa pressure from season to season? I don't keep the above type of varroa pressure on all varroa tolerant hives. Only those hives I want to use in a breeding program. To use the race car example again. If the car can handle 200 mph for 500 miles then the principles used in the car should make a car which should go 200,000 miles with everyday driving. The main reason car manufacturers invest in auto racing. >Sounds like it would be best to attack the virus instead of the mite. The answer here is both simple and complicated at the same time. simple: Keep varroa control above 90% and almost no PMS. complicated: controlling the virus outbreak after it gets started. example: Simple: Wash hands before eating and hopefully prevent the flu virus problem. complicated: trying to control the flu virus after infecting yourself! The best control for PMS I have found is to install a varroa tolerant queen and in 50% of the cases (last time I did testing 2 years ago)the PMS will disappear in a few weeks. Not sure exactly why. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:13:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: "virtual beehives" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been having an intermittent off-line discussion about hive dimensions with Cushman and, since I can't "visualize" things, I have been playing with paper cut outs of hive parts to see how they interact. As I was "playing" with my cardboard cut outs of hive parts, not dolls, this AM, I was struck by a thought. I do have them from time to time, despite rumours to the contrary from some quarters. I have seen software which allows you to design a garden, house interior, auto, etc. and then "tour" the result. Wouldn't it be great if someone with graphic software writing skills could come up with a virtual hive interior? If you could set the dimensions, etc. it could be very useful not to mention interesting. Along a similar vein, digital photos of frames could be measured and the distribution of cell sizes analyzed by the use of a software program. I recall one from, Switzerland I believe, that dealt with the distribution of stores in a hive and frame. It was a virtual frame in effect. A few simple "rules", let the program run at random and you got the classic distribution. I know the software for some of these computer games is fantastically complex but unless I'm overly naive wouldn't "a hive" interior program be a lot simpler? Granted the market would be confined to a small select crowd and it would be without any economic potential. Any programers lurking out there who could give some "facts" and get my feet back on the ground? Am I "reinventing a wheel" that is already rolling out there somewhere? Rip FYI, the mention of "paper dolls" was an intentional preemptive strike to keep Aaron and his "ilk" off balance and avoid a "zinger". Thinking a "bored mind" is a dangerous thing to have at "loose ends". -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:58:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Some common ground In-Reply-To: <4358F454.6060009@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: There is much more there than just small cell but also bee measurements,seasonal adjustments by the bees, and the range of cell sizes on a frame and the different patterns from frame to frame. It is a lot more complex than 4.9. Reply: This is quite true in Dennis's area and to be expected with him saying here on BEE-L there are commercial bee yards every 3/4 mile set down in his area. Sphere of influence does mean something here, but Dennis is still to be congradulated for what he has seen in such a mixed breeding area, vs one that is not so dominated by LC domestic bees. Wish other beekeepers here on BEE-L could give a comparison with TBH figures in a not so strongly mixed commercial area, and from a different region. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:37:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Useless Energy Spent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob & All, > Whether you agree with their views or not, the postings > of people you have met are much more personal. Attend meetings shake > hands and go out of your way to find Bee-L friends on your travels. > Some people are so lucky to be able to travel and meet distant beekeepers, I wish I were so lucky. Maybe when I am retired from my work I will find the time for the luxury of traveling the world. It is enough for me presently to provide for my family with our single income. Yes emails are probably one of the most impersonal forms of communication I know besides certain gestures. I know my writing skills and communication skills are in need of wanting help, but in person I try dearly to be endearing and personal. At least I post, act, reciprocate, read most all post, try to look past the impersonality of emails, and have even found many new friends on these lists and this email list. Even though I find it difficult to travel and darn near nobody on this list or other list seem to find their way to Alaska, to by chance meet in person this fellow beekeeper, I look forward to meeting some someday. This list and others has brought the world to me and visa versa. I love ya all regardless of popular opinions. > Recently, I've used the delete button quite a bit. The > discussion on cell size and its spinoffs has pitted facts against > opinions, such that I had had enough. I made several exceptions to > my deletions, however. I could say the same or do the same but quit frankly, I think it is rude to do so. I read as many post as humanly possible of this list and other lists I belong to and love to. My opinions come from my closely observing or deep study, reading of material, and using good old uneducated common since that I was born with. Some have no clue and need educated on everything, other wise it is of no use. Facts are opinions that were simply proven later and some facts of the past were later proven false. So much for facts and opinions I guess. Believe as you will and must. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:39:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Regressed Bees In-Reply-To: <20051021040614.31917.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Lusby wrote: >> Isis writes: >> Proof would involve two things: 1) side by side >> comparison with normal hives and 2) ..... > > > Reply: > Interesting you saying this! Not knowing what you > mean by > regular bees, assuming size here I will say: > I think what Isis is referring to is what is called a control group. In this case it might be made up of hives of Italians, Carniolans, Caucasians, whatever, all raised on the standard cell size comb as sold by most of the bee supply houses and utilized by most of the U.S.'s commercial beekeepers. Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 08:46:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Sizes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob, > "Beekeeping is both simple and complicated at the same time" > Bob Harrison > How true. This allows a beekeeper with very little knowledge to keep bees and a beekeeper that nearly knows all there is to know about bees to lose all their colonies. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:26:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl David Lehr Subject: Acclimatization or Hygienic? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Which characteristic should NEW-BEEKS be more concerned with: Queens who come from locales with similar climates as ours or those who exhibit hygienic behaviors to help deal with Varroa (or is this an apples and oranges question)? As we're still in the learning process (I like the fact that most of you are also despite your years and years of experience), we're unsure how to proceed when we acquire new queens for our splits next spring. Our first nucs had KONA Carniolans in them and did a great job drawing out numerous frames of foundation this year so we requeened with Kona Carniolans and Italians. Should we have paid more attention to the dramatic climatic conditions that exist between Hawaii and western Maryland? As always, we appreciate the continued education... Dave and Kristi Lehr (NEW BEEKS) Carroll County Beekeepers Association Westminster, MD -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:53:35 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Regressed Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I called the hive my *pet hive*. I always kept the entrance reduced. This might have been a good line of bees for the average gardner who wants pollination without a big hive!! There might be a market for worse than average but varroa-tolerant bees that can survive on their own. Bob, I value your tremendous experience and insight as is the case with so many contributors on this great list. I think is wonderful that so many people are trying so many different approaches to better beekeeping. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:48:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Acclimatization or Hygienic? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Should we have paid more attention to the dramatic climatic conditions that exist between Hawaii and western Maryland? I think its a trial & error situation with today's queen producers. We install queens in March after hives return from Almonds. Cold dramatic climatic conditions are the norm. A decade ago we were not pleased with Kona queens but all we could get. The last five years we have been pleased with our Kona queens of both lines. Not sure what happened but the product has gotten better! The Kona carniolans are selected in Ohio for wintering ability. In my opinion both lines do well in the cold northern section of the U.S.. I was with Sue Cobey at a meeting last week and I believe she said she sends NWC breeder queens to Kona each year from her program. Those might be best for your area and she selects for hygienic behavior and varroa tolerance in her stock. I think (not for sure) the Italian line comes from the old Powers Apiaries line (Kona queen was owned by Powers Apiaries before Gus Rouse bought the business) which is a high honey producing line. The line has been around for years like the Homer Park line ( now Wooten's Golden Queens). Both the above Italian lines are famous for prolific queens which produce bees & honey! As to wintering Italians I refer beekeepers to the publication & video by Marla Spivak " Wintering in Northern climates" which deals with the wintering of Italians. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:23:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Pollution by feeding In-Reply-To: <20051021042853.55888.qmail@web53404.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3896772B > At least that is my understanding of why a lot of >beekeepers feed honey to their colonies in the fall. Yes, and also a failure of the fall flow. and so as keith says, are > allowed to pollute the genetic pool. I admire Keith's persistence in trying to winter bees in Alaska. I'm sure, in time, he will have a better bee than he did before. And maybe it's so that feeding sugar would maintain colonies that he doesn't want in his gene pool. It just seems to me that these colonies are a valuable resource. Feed them to get them through the winter, and use the bees and brood next year to make up nucs for your queen rearing. Yes/No? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.12.2/137 - Release Date: 10/16/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:24:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: "virtual beehives" In-Reply-To: <20051021.115652.-79621.1.beerip@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:13 AM 10/21/05 -0400, you wrote: > >I have seen software which allows you to design a garden, house interior, >auto, etc. and then "tour" the result. Wouldn't it be great if someone >with graphic software writing skills could come up with a virtual hive >interior? No need to write from scratch- that would be a horrible waste of time! Many of the low-end off the shelf house-design CAD programs have rendering and 3D capability built-in. What is a bee hive if not a house for bees, albiet small? My brother-in-law is an engineer and has Autocad on his computer which will do all the above, and more. I used Autocad for years for surveying. I've been planning on using it to design an observation hive this winter. If I come up with anything earth shaking regarding virtual tours of beehives, I'll share it with the list. Not sure I've got enough spare time to delve into mapping cell distribution, but it sure sounds fun. George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:45:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Pollution by feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/10/05 21:11:36 GMT Daylight Time, jfischer@SUPERCOLLIDER.COM writes: <> Depends on the local honey flows. From what I understand, many parts of the States have short, intense flows, and then nothing. Obviously, under those circumstances, you need to build the hives up ready to take advantage in order to get a decent crop. Here in the UK, I find that my bees bees start the season on willow, move on to dandelion, then have a steady trickle of honey coming in until August or September, as long as the weather is suitable. With no real definable flow, and unpredictable weather, stimulative feeding would be a waste of time. What I need is bees which can take advantage of whatever's out there, any time the weather's suitable. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:32:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Getting colonies up to weight. In-Reply-To: <43585A4F.6050303@mts.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-45EC106F > I wonder if others have noticed a trend in increased requirements to get >colonies up to winter weight. I certainly did this year. My production colonies are heavy as lead...no feeding necessary. But my 4 frame nucs. I fed what I thought was the required amount af syrup, to get them up to weight. Three weeks later, many look as it they hadn't been fed at all. The end of September, and first week of October was unusually warm. The nucs are packed with bees, and probably used it in brood rearing...my guess. In the fall, I weigh my production colonies, and have a target weight of 150 lbs. That was always sufficient, for the bees to make it until some tome in April. I've noticed the past few years, that more and more 150 pounders come through too light, and a few starve in late spring. I've been selecting for broodiness, so that may be the reason. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.12.2/137 - Release Date: 10/16/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:45:07 +0200 Reply-To: jbkriebel@speakeasy.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jonathan Kriebel Organization: Veritec, GmbH Subject: AW: [BEE-L] "virtual beehives" In-Reply-To: <20051021.115652.-79621.1.beerip@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "...I have seen software which allows you to design a garden, house interior, auto, etc. and then "tour" the result..." SolidWorks, and AutoCAD can do all of this. 3D modeling is very common, and perhaps there are simpler programs out there that are available, but these are the two I have worked with, and are very comprehensive and easy, (once you climb the learning curve). As an aside, I have moved to Germany (Cologne). Had to leave the bees behind, but plan on getting active with them here. I did not have a chance to properly close down the hives, back in PA, but Jim Bobb will be helping me out (THANKS JIM!). It is good to read what is going on back with the bees, kind of an anchor in a comfortable area for me to have. Thanks again...JK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:06:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: October Cover Photo American Bee Journal November issue has a cover photo also of an image from www.beetography.com. Enjoy and have a nice weekend. Zach -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:27:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" In-Reply-To: <200510221306.j9MCvbOa017013@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob H. Writes: >I realize the hypothesis Joe has presented is being accepted but I still don't buy it! I hope to live long enough to see the *SMR trait does not >exist* be proven incorrect. Allen D. Writes: > Dr. Harbo pointed out that SMR mites actually > defecate in a different area of the cell than do > non-SMR bees. (SMR=HYG)=False Hi Bob & Allen, Harbo's on the boat, and he seems to be leaving without you guys. ;>) I have two 'expert opinions' from Harbo and Huang. This just in from ARS, Oct 13, 2005,,, "But with further investigation, Harbo and Harris have found that their SMR bees aren't meddling with mite reproduction after all. Instead, the bees are simply exceptional housekeepers." http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2005/051013.htm Dick, I fail to see the value of potty training varroa to a 'specific area'. :>) But,, if you want the answer, 'ask a mother'. All good mothers know the answer to this one. Any mother will tell you that 'they will do what ever is necessary to give the youngsters the best chance at survival', and this includes mother varroa pooping outside the feeding area up along the sidewalls near rim of the cell so as not to contaminate the food for the kids. Varroa mothers 'without kids' will defecate on the food source(as reviewed by Zachary), because care of the children is not a factor, and this is probably the reason for this and not due to any SMR trait. Zachary Huang "The white defecation of a varroa mother mite on a worker pupae (near the tip of abdomen). This is usually a sign that the mite did not reproduce. Reproducing mites defecate on cell walls, not on the developing bee." http://photo.bees.net/gallery/varroa Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:34:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Hygienic Testing In-Reply-To: <200510190107.j9J0GIXp016132@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dann Purvis II wrote: ....we had developed or isolated two lines of bees that would >consistently test hygienically above 85% at 24 hours (liquid Nitrogen, same >age brood, with re-test confirmation). Dan, Thanks for responding to my letter. I also keep colonies that tested 85% or above due to overall performance. It's difficult to justify weeding them out if overall performance is good. Dan, do you know of or have any ideas you would care to share on how an average beekeeper might intensify selection toward the 'early removal' fondress as opposed to post capping removal?,,, such as they SMR folks have been doing? I'm looking at two possibilities. I wonder if pin prick of pre capped larvae would work? Or the other possibly intensifying selection for hygienic behavior, is to pull up the test frame with adhering nurse bees to a nuc and checking at one hour intervals for immidieate removal of brood. This would eliminate the division of labor effect making the test groups fairly equal, and also identify colonies with highly tuned hygienic behavior response. This might help in the selection of the 'highly developed hygienic bees' from the rest, as I do have several colonies testing 100% on the pin prick method, so there must be some way to determine the 'best of the best', and by finding these would accelerate and focus the selection process toward quick hygenic response. ...4 lines were evaluated >and fell short in hygienic behavior evaluations but carried other evaluated >traits deemed necessary to our goal of developing a bee that can survive >without chemical intervention while producing well. Please expand. >Hygienic behavior is not that difficult to bring out. Dan, because it is a recessive gene, does this mean the trait cannot be fixed and must be constantly monitored in subsequent generations? > >We have seen a significant drop in brood diseases, which I attribute >partially to the hygienic genes, an increase in propolis production and high >brood viability (95%+). I have theories from comparing my ferals to the wild ferals,,, but why in your opinion is the factor behind the observed increase in high brood viability? ,,,as I see this as very important. >IMHO, these and other genetic traits (grooming behavior, Are you looking at autogrooming or allogrooming? > virus resistance, Are you referring to PMS symptoms here? How would one select for this? Thanks! Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:14:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob & All, > Bob H. Writes: > I realize the hypothesis Joe has presented is being > accepted but I still don't buy it! I hope to live long > enough to see the *SMR trait does not > exist* be proven incorrect. > See how proof and facts are treated, the same as opinions, that's funny. Thanks Bob, for proving my opinion about facts not always being proof in science or proof not always proving a fact. My opinion can be just as good as proven facts, albeit maybe not all of my opinions. c]:~)> Facts and opinions do not have to be proven to be correct and right, visa versa also. I simply choose to do my own observations and study of bees so I can learn something new. If I were to only rely on "proven facts" then the possibility of learning new things is diminished greatly. This is how new discoveries and advancements are made. Anyone that chooses to automatically delete my postings will not only diminish the possibility of making a new friend but maybe even learning something new. Well maybe even being strayed the wrong direction too. c]:~)> . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:12:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Waggle Subject: Rip Bechmann wrote: Rip Bechmann wrote: >I don't think the data support your view. I seem to recall a study done,...that the >feral populations were fairly distinct from managed colonies. Yes you are correct, I have two or three of these studies stored in my files. But I was referring to some of the smaller celled feral colonies 'from domestic pre foundation enlargement times' that may have been on their way in natural acclimatization and regression, but not quite there yet and still large enough in size to be influenced by assortative matings with larger celled drones, and yet still wild for a long enough time to be considered ferals. But thanks, because this data mentioned does support my view that small celled ferals maintain a fairly good separate genetic breeding sphere from that of the enlarged honeybees due to assortative drone mating preferences. This might explain how the small celled ferals were able to keep genetically fit enough to survive the mite crashes of the mid 90's and be the first to recover naturally. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:55:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Some common ground Hello Everyone, >Wish other beekeepers here on BEE-L could give a comparison with TBH figures in a not so strongly mixed commercial area, and from a different region.... Those comb measurements include more locations than just Wyoming. That includes Illinois, Ohio and Pennsylvania. I don't know about the degree of isolation in these areas. But I suspect they are about the same as most other areas, in the US, and would not be considered very isolated. The bee size measurements on my site are all from Wyoming. On another note and a rant :>). Most of the stuff and the methods used in beekeeping today, became standard practice based on the 'doing' and not on the 'knowing'. The verticle Lang hive with it's beespace, the smoker, the extractor, queen rearing, foundation cell size, etc, were all based on observations and lots of perspiration. This stuff filled some beekeeping need and simply worked. The proof was in the doing for most beekeepers. I'm sure the innovative improved it to suit their purposes, the curious 'speculated' :>) why, and the scientific 'tested' to advance the science of beekeeping amoung other things:>). The entreprenuer, found a way to use it and make some money. And the argumentative, 'discussed' all of the above. :>))) For me, the 'if' concerning the impacts of small cell size on bee behavior is history. It works. And who would have thought about the impacts of cell size, except the Lusby's to which I'm indebted. And now, since I don't spend any time on the mites, I've got lots of time to innovate, speculate, test, and even discuss the hows and whys. Could small cell size return bees to their natural state? Or is it a better match to seasonal behavior? Does it activate SMR traits? Does it decrease the time the brood are capped? Do small cell beekeepers have a more positive karma which impacts the bees and decimates the mites?(I'm waiting for Jim F. to develop a meter to test this :>))? I've connected the dots differently than the Lusby's. I suspect that others who try it, will connect the dots somewhat differently also. A good scientific test might help us all connect the dots more consistently and explain why some only had a few dots to connect. Or why some had more than they should have :>))) When I first noticed the tapered cell size in my tbh comb, I explained what I had found to my youngest son. He looked at me with a blank face and said, "Of course its size tapers, because the sides of the tbh taper." Hummm.... I hadn't thought of that and I didn't discount it either! That's one of the reasons I measured other tbh comb, and also changed the slope of my tbhs several times. Insisting that there's only one way to connect the dots, whether large or small, denies the very nature of humanity and of beekeeping itself. Adding a moral value to it like right/wrong, or good/bad takes the discussion to another level entirely. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:27:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Pollution by feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mike & All, > Feed them to get them through the winter, and use the bees and brood = next year > to make up nucs for your queen rearing. >=20 > Yes/No? > Yes, Mike. Just this fall I decided to feed a hand full of colonies that = weighed in to light to winter. For the past four years I have not been = feeding for study and for in search of breeding stock that could survive = the condition of my location in Alaska. I also have learned by not = feeding that I can winter bees up here better on honey stores rather = than on sugar syrup. With honey stores only I have seen the strongest = colonies I have ever seen come through winter in all of my short 13 year = beekeeping experience. If these few colonies I decided to feed this fall = survive the winter I will pull them from my breeding program so their = genetics do not mix with my breeding stock. I will in addition requeen = these few that were fed next season from my breeding stock or as you = suggest make up nucs for your queen rearing or increase. I think I now = have a good idea of the character I need in bees to survive up here on = no to little feed after a harvest.=20 Thanks Mike, for commenting here on this and prying this information out = of me.=20 . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:32:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Where's the "proof"? In-Reply-To: <015301c5d63f$746ad7d0$8f9d869f@DF9MK81J> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Ruary Rudd wrote: > I have checked and IBRA have copies of the Journal > of Apicultural Reseach > paper they can be reached at www.ibra.org.uk ,,, Thanks Ruary for checking! Also on my wish list is the study by Tautz. Erik Says it's due to be published next summer. Pirk, C, Hepburn, HR Hepburn, C and Tautz, J THE EFFECTS OF ENVIRONMENTAL AND GENETIC FACTORS DETERMINING THE CELL SIZE OF HONEYBEE COMB "A COMPARATIVE STUDY OF THE EXTERNAL MORPHOLOGY OF THE PROTHORACIC AND THE PROPODEAL SPIRACLES IN FOUR STRAINS OF Apis mellifera (L.). POSSIBLE RESISTANCE MECHANISM AGAINST THE TRACHEAL MITE Acarapis woodi(R.)" "DIFFERENCES IN THE MORPHOLOGY OF PROTHORACIC AND PROPODEAL SPIRACLES IN THREE STRAINS OF APIS MELLIFERA POSSIBLE RELATION TO RESISTANT AGAINST ACARAPIS WOODI." Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:36:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen D. Writes: >> Dr. Harbo pointed out that SMR mites actually defecate in a different >> area of the cell than do non-SMR bees. I did NOT write that. > (SMR=HYG)=False I did write that, and ((SMR=HYG)=False)=TRUE For SMR=HYG to be true, the terms on each side must be *identical*. These are not. (Identical means "*exactly* the same"). AFAIK, there are subtle and meaningful differences that may have been neglected in the dumbed-down releases intended for the public, but which are of some considerable interest to some of us. Although each the above terms is now known to represent a set of hygienic behaviours, they are not -- last I heard Harbo discuss it -- an identical set. Harbo's bees go beyond what has been considered HYG in the past. Whether the term 'SMR' is still considered appropriate and being used is immaterial to this discussion. I've searched for a definitive definition of "HYG", but not found anything better than the following written by "Marla Spivak, Rebecca Masterman , Rocco Ross, Karen A. Mesce, from http://tinyurl.com/8wu2p: "Honey bees, Apis mellifera, which perform hygienic behavior, quickly detect, uncap and remove diseased brood from the nest. This behavior, performed by bees 15-20 days old and prior to foraging..." Note the word, "diseased", not, "parasitized" or "distressed". These people choose their words with care. > Harbo's on the boat, and he seems to be leaving without you guys. ;>) Harbo's not on any boat, and he is not leaving. Give me a break. For me, persistent trolls have a special place -- my killfile. On the other hand, I have respect for writers -- no matter whether we agree or not -- who bother to be sure who wrote what, who address concepts rather than haranguing individuals over semantics, who don't sprinkle their text with inappropriate emoticons, and can cite articles that they have actually read and understood which are related to their points more than peripherally -- and which actually support their point rather than drawing it into question. > I have two 'expert opinions' from Harbo and Huang: "But with further > investigation, Harbo and Harris have found that their SMR bees aren't > meddling with mite reproduction after all. Instead, the bees are simply > exceptional housekeepers." Well, if uncapping and pulling out reproducing mites caught in the act doesn't constitute "meddling with mite reproduction", then what does? Let's look at it, however. The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary Dictionary says: "reproduction - Pronunciation: "rE-pr&-'d&k-sh&n - Function: noun - the act or process of reproducing; specifically : the process by which plants and animals give rise to offspring and which fundamentally consists of the segregation of a portion of the parental body by a sexual or an asexual process and its subsequent growth and differentiation into a new individual". So, technically, using strictly that definition, if immatures are produced, then reproduction has taken place, however, if the offspring are not able to mature, then what? Effectively, the reproduction has been unsuccessful. Moreover, whether some of the reproduction is suppressed by early uncapping will depend on at what stage the cell is uncapped. If uncapping takes place early enough, then some reproduction is stopped. When we observed this in Dee's bees, there was never more than one visible mite in the cell, but maybe there were some immatures. Dunno.. If uncapping takes place later on, and does not prevent any reproduction (strictly defined), then the uncapping could be compared to abortion, but, golly, that is really splitting hairs. At what point is reproduction complete? At egg laying, at hatching, or at maturity? Probably at egg laying? No matter? Although the mechanism may affect the name of the effect, it does not change the fact that raising more mature adults is suppressed, and, further, that reproduction is curtailed at the time of early uncapping. All that is really beside the point. There is not, and has not been, any dispute here that the original SMR trait that was being sought, and for which Harbo's bees were named, has not been proven to exist to any significant extent. The point being made is that bees selected by Harbo, and still called SMR bees AFAIK, are on the market, and they have unique properties beyond the previous HYG bees. Bob has some, and AFAIK, I can still order you some -- if you have the cash. That is all I have been claiming AFAIK, other than pointing out that the mechanism(s) used by Harbo's bees appear different from previously demonstrated HYG. I'm sure we'll be hearing more on this. For that matter, Bob and I probably were aware of the fact that there was an unexpected result with SMR long before many were, and were also aware that there would be implications for the direction of future work. I could say more, but name dropping and revealing the content of personal discussions and communications not intended for publication are simply not my style. Maybe I'll have more later on this. > Any mother will tell you that 'they will do what ever is necessary to give > the youngsters the best chance at survival', and this includes mother > varroa pooping outside the feeding area up along the sidewalls near rim of > the cell so as not to contaminate the food for the kids. The fecal spot is significant for other well-known reasons, and besides, insects are not very analogous to humans. Think honeydew. I'm hoping somebody is finding this whole hair-splitting episode useful. I'm not. I'll reply to any well-written, well thought out, non argumentive and non-magical posts, but from here on out, I'm going to start deleting, and, if that does not work, updating my killfile. allen If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going. -- Professor Irwin Corey -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:50:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Smallcell Beekeeping/TBH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maybe I'm just in a pestemistic mood , but if "Organic Beekeepers", Small Cell Beekeeoers and Top Bar Hive Beekeepers are so concerned about getting their bees "back" to their "natural", "feral", "undomesticated" state why don't y'all just keep your bees in log gums like God intended? Maybe skeps would be better. You may not know this but, you can stack skeps as if for supers. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:23:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: What is Hygienic Behaviour? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recent discussions have raised an interesting question. What are the definitions of 'hygienic behaviour' and of HYG, and have they changed over the years? I recall the days when Steve Tabor was a lone voice crying out in the wilderness, claiming wonderful things for hygienic behaviour. His preferred test was to cut a section of comb, freeze it and put it back, then see how long the hives took to remove the dead brood. This was being hygienic -- removing dead brood, and thus a good surrogate for ability to find and remove diseased or dying larvae. AFB was the big concern then, and the main target. Pin pricks were also recommended earlier on. Later Jerry and others popularized the test, and the idea. "Hygienic" was the word chosen somewhere along the way, and there were no mites at the time, so the idea related to clearing the hive and removing dead larvae and scale. Hygienic: [adj] tending to promote or preserve health; "hygienic habits like using disposable tissues"; "hygienic surroundings with plenty of fresh air" Synonyms: healthful, hygienical, sanitary *Sanitation* was the thinking, then, but now we have mites that infect otherwise healthy larvae, and, in a session (was it at the CHPA or the ABF -- was it two years ago? Can't recall) a speaker (Marla?) referred to 'hygienic' as *including* the locating and removal of perfectly healthy and undiseased larvae that were infested with a varroa mite. At that point, the hygienic bees on offer were quite a bit less than wonderful at finding an ejecting mites in brood. I questioned that expanded definition at the time, but did not get an answer. Bob was there, too, but seemed to be used to, and comfortable with, what seemed to me to be a mutated or expanded definition. Seems to me that there is an obvious difference between a reproducing varroa mite on a live, healthy larva and dead or diseased larvae. Since then -- and particularly since people have been increasingly equating removal of varroa-infested brood under the catch-all term, "hygienic behaviour", in spite of the fact that Harbo in recent meetings indicated that in his opinion there is (may be) a difference between the mechanism and the genes responsible for what he isolated and the other, more conventional hygienic traits -- I've been wondering -- did the definition shift, or was there ever a clear one? ...and who is the authority who defines terms like 'hygienic' and 'HYG'. (No, Joe and Keith, please do not just hit, "Reply" and give an opinion. I want to hear from someone who has been around for a few decades was there, and actually knows -- Jerry, perhaps). allen Furious activity is no substitute for understanding. -- H. H. Williams -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:02:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Smallcell Beekeeping/TBH In-Reply-To: <20051022195020.36467.qmail@web32110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark, Stacking skeps or stacking wooden supers, or ceramic/clay pots even, isn't the principle still the same for what you are doing? By the way, even early on early frontier beekeepers even stacked cut open log sections. Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:03:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I suppose I possibly have the most SMR experience on the list or at least the most which will talk. Allen knows I also have got information not available to the general public and available off on the net. The information presented by Joe is a public dumb down as Allen says because the principle of SMR is hard to grasp. I believe I might be the only person on the list which has done Dr. Harbo's method of finding the hive with the SMR trait. I was taught by Dr. Harbo himself after his presentation at an ABF meeting I believe in 2002 in Savannah. Once the procedure was explained to me in detail I quickly picked up the procedure. The procedure has not been explained exactly at any presentation I am aware of. If a member of the list has tested for SMR it would be interesting to hear what their thoughts are. Any around willing to talk? I do not believe my close friend Dann Purvis has ever tested for the SMR trait. Since Joe name dropped two of my favorite researchers I feel I need to comment. If I had the resources to provide funding I would right away fund Dr. Harbo to leave the lab and hire underlings similar to his former underling Sue Cobey to do varroa research. The kind of close look at varroa reproduction they do requires people & funding! I have been amazed at the results at the lab of such an underfunded and undermanned project! Next I would fund the same amount to Dann Purvis to do the varroa tolerant field testing and record keeping. Plenty of people and a large lab. Next I would go to Brazil and see if Dr. Warrick Kerr is tired of teaching and drop enough funding to make Dr. Kerr come to the U.S. and head up the project of taming AHB! If the world provided funding and support staff to those people I believe the beekeeping world would solve the varroa and AHB problem. Bob "Cold & rainy in Missouri so will sit back tonight and read again from one of my favorite authors Stephen Hawking *A brief History of time*" The beekeeping year is basically over for me until spring 2006! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:57:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe & All, My views on the SMR trait: I have used Marla Spivak hygienic II breeder queens and Dr. Harbo's SMR II breeder queens. The hygienic alone line can not handle the varroa mite. period! You can select among the line for queens which can tolerate varroa but those queens can (as Dr. Harbo says) be found in most lines of bees. The most varroa tolerant bee I ever tested were daughters raised from a Dr.Harbo II SMR breeder queen (both red & yellow lines). The problem to me was that the SMR trait (whatever the list wants to say causes those bees to handle varroa) was so pronounced the daughters had poor brood viability regardless to the hybrid produced by us. I can't stand "shotgun brood" in production hives! We have used Marla Spivak hygienic drones for a cross but the hybrid did not improve. We tried other hybrids. Still no improvement. Poor brood viability. I do not know the methods used by Danny Weaver to create his "smart" bee SMR line but Weavers were so impressed with the SMR queens the SMR queen was chosen for the honey bee genome project! Queens with the SMR trait have been a mystery to all of us which have come in contact with her. I believe she could hold the key to solving the varroa problem . I dropped the SMR project and moved on to the Russian bee but might return to the SMR research which is time consuming and almost overwhelming for one person. Perhaps I will give "Igor" a call! The test for hygienic behavior is simple and involves simply dead brood. Not rocket science! Bees can smell dead brood. The bees have known forever to remove dead brood. Killing brood by the pin prick method is not a valid method in my opinion but can be done for a primitive test. The reason being the wound left by the pin releases an odor /signal for removal by the bees. Some will argue that pricking from the other side of the frame stops the problem but I am not so sure. According to Marla Spivak (whom I also dearly admire and even went to Nebraska to take her queen rearing course this year to many peoples surprise) the workers which remove the most in the shortest period of time are the most hygienic. Also the way we do the test. The test is a valuable test but hardly on a level with Dr. Harbo & Dr. Harris SMR & PMIB research (as far as time and labor involved) . Much much more is involved in evaluating hygienic behavior in bees in my opinion. We have only scratched the surface! My mystery to me is simple (yet complicated). Most bees which show SMR do not test hygienic by Marla's method. Brood I have pulled and check for varroa reproduction in hygienic queen headed hives have not shown the lack of varroa reproduction that the SMR breeder queen daughter hives have. Some SMR F1 hives don't even clean the bottom boards! Some (if not most) were not exceptional housekeepers but terrible housekeepers! I stand with Allen in saying Hyg = SMR is not the same. We tested 125 colonies headed by SMR II breeder queen daughters! I realize going on a public forum and saying "hey wait a minute" is not in line with the bee lab release but is my opinion after three years of SMR observations! Come on lurkers not worried about your reputation! Speak up about your experience! Marla has opened the door to hygienic behavior now we need to provide the research necessary to solve the mystery. I HATE WHEN THE RESEARCH COMMUNITY PAINTS A COMPLICATED ISSUE WITH A BROAD SIMPLE BRUSH ! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:25:21 +0200 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" In-Reply-To: <001601c5d77e$6a8b6aa0$2cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> > Killing brood by the pin prick method is not a valid method in my > opinion but can be done for a primitive test. The reason being the > wound left by the pin releases an odor /signal for removal by the > bees. This argument was used when the knowledge about hygienic behaviour was that the fenomena was controlled by 2-3 genes. We know today that 7 genes are involved. We don't really know what we are testing or what we are not testing (by a pin/freezing test). I know that the document I propose one should look at is in swedish, but the graphs on pages 3 and 4 clearly shows that the results from pin test and freezing test correlate. The pin test WILL DO. And it's much faster, less labor intensive and makes possible to compute exact numbers (comparable data). Take a look at: http://www.quicknet.se/home/q-119076/BONUS/HYG/stjalpa.pdf frysdödat = killed by freezing nåldödat = killed by a pin tid(timmar) = time(hours) tomma celler = empty cells Having the document on the screen, take a look at page 6 too. To get "hygienic bees" takes time. \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 04:41:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 23/10/05 05:11:39 GMT Daylight Time, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: <> Fair point, but has anyone noticed at what point the larvae are removed? I'm getting cells opened and larvae (eventually) removed, but I'm not clear as to what's happening exactly. All I can say is that they're opened when the eyes are pale purple, at about 14-15 days old. They look perfectly healthy, with no sign of discolouration or disease, and are removed several days after opening. Unfortunately illness last summer prevented me from looking into what was happening more closely. I was seeing the occasional bee with shrivelled wings, but once again I was unable to do a proper count of the fallen mites. Hopefully I'll do better next year! Mite falls weren't enormous, but as I was unable to collect them promptly, and ants do remove them slowly, any count would have been meaningless. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:34:37 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Testing finer sugars against Varroa Comments: cc: "D. Murrell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, This was meant initially for Dennis Murrell but really applies to many of us. The use of powdered sugars in the fight against Varroa seems a popular subject right now, but by the looks of it no person or research institute has so far shown the effectiveness and their possible drawbacks from prolonged periods of any of the powdered sugar methods that are under discussion in the world . I myself am very much in favor of any sugar treament above chemicals and would use it today if I needed! On the other hand, I can see that there are really still quite a few holes to be filled before a complete and usable program can be developed that guarantees the success that chemicals apparently did have. So before we can convince all the other beekeepers and present our agricultural departments responsible for the methods with proof, we have quite a way to go. The chemical industry migh hate us meanwhile for our attempts to shake off their polluting products! But yes, I love to see this rediculously long list with products disappear: Amitraz, Apistan, Apiguard, ApilifeVar, Apitol, Bayvarol, CheckMite, Flumethrine FM, Fluvalinate, Folbex, Formidol, Mite-Away, MiteGone, Oxamite, Perizin, Taktivar, Thymovar, Varidol, Formic acid, Oxalic acid and so on plus all quasi safe oils. I have never ever used any chemicals on my hives, not even for tests either. My hives are to the best of my knowledge (using micoscope samples) still clean....but that is pure luck and to some extend due to my own behavior because Varroa has (officially) fully spread througout our area. Dennis, your blasting method is interesting, but your nor the other's powderedsugar application methods are 100% safe. There is apparently the danger of killing brood if sugar dust is allowed to enter brood cells of a particular age and with a certain amount of sugar powder used. Why larvae do die from sugar I don't know but we should not neglect this signal and dig out the reason. See the article called "Only large amounts of powdered sugar applied directly to brood cells harms immature bees" from Aliano and Ellis that Preben Kristianssen from Sweden made us aware of. So really any text that sounds: "doesn't harm either the bees or the brood" is not perfect, since there is a mention in research that contradicts this (see the previous block) and shows that harm can in fact de done to brood. For the less experienced beekeepers I can imagine that other dangers exist as well, like for instance the chilling of brood if they fiddle too long and often with frames during colder periods for the application of sugar. One particular difficulty on which I hope to get some more clearity (I'm writing to a number of sugar refineries in the world for their specifications) is the fact that the powdered sugars for sale in the different countries do differ, and not just in name. Firstly they have different grain or particle sizes, secondly different sugar sources can be used for the production and thirdly different foreign substances (I found 5 so far) are sometimes added by the refineries to obtain certain qualities. Some retailed sugars might not have a narrow enough range of particles, so that varying results may be seen, depending on whether finer or coarser particles were involved. All of those are factors should be investigated, even if they are seemingly of smaller consequence. Also: - too fine sugar dust might perhaps have a chance to enter the bees breathing organs (for instance there is one sugar on the market with only 9 microns in size). - wrong additives might affect the bees and the brood - too large particles might disturb the honey and not have the required or expected results. I am in the process of 'screening' the powdered sugars that I can lay my hands on and do this with the help of my microscope to see how they differ in particle size. Digital pictures are intended to be taken of each test and an Excel file is used to log all the trading names plus all the product data found or supplied and any microscope findings. Still, someone has to start taking a range of properly recorded tests with different sugars, application methods and at different seasons, while monitoring the brood and the Varroa of course, to see if a sugar powder treatment is as positive as we hope it to be! Some of our beekeepers have started to apply powdered sugar this autumn in stead of oxalic acid, that was also seen in the low numbers of beekeepers that came to pick up their oxalic acid on the "Oxalic acid day" that we organize each year. Ron van Mierlo for Trollhattans Biodlareforening Sweden Phone+Fax: +46-520-441424 Email: ron-eefje@tele2.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:15:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" In-Reply-To: <001701c5d77e$6be2bd40$2cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-11E9187D > I was taught by Dr. Harbo himself after his presentation at an ABF meeting I >believe in 2002 in Savannah. > If a member of the list has tested for SMR it would be interesting to hear >what their thoughts are. Any around willing to talk? I began introducing SMR stock two years ago. The SMRxSMR breeder queen, as Bob says, didn't produce very good bees. But, the SMRxCarni, crossed with my stock, produced very good bees. Several overwintered 4 frame nucs, transferred to 10 frame equipment at the end of April, produced 240 lbs surplus. I attended a talk by Marla in April. She said that the SMR breeders produced inferior bees, until the SMR content was reduced to 25%. I guess that's what I'm seeing. As far as Varroa tolerance goes...I don't know yet. As I don't know Harbo's methods, I can only go by results...and that takes time. So, Bob...you say you have bees taught the procedure by Harbo, and "it hasn't been explained exactly at any presentation." Could you do so here? Sure would help me. thanks Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.12.2/137 - Release Date: 10/16/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:45:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Feral colonies [Was: TBH question.] In-Reply-To: <200510200116.j9K1Dxoe017865@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dennis A bit late in reply, I've not been online for three days... > There's another factor to be considered when evaluating most > historical measurement. Most beekeepers believed the concept > that bees draw out only a single worker cell size. Just how > did they find that perfect size cell? What criteria was used > to select some comb and reject others? I reckon that the assumptions used back in 1880 would be similar to those made more recently. If you do measure individual cells, then you find variation in size. If you find variation of a object within a context, it is common to use an average of several items to derive a value that can be used to 'relate' the size to other features. What I have just described is how I came to apply particular numbers to cells... I think that the measuring capabilities of 1880 were of similar accuracy to the vernier calipers that I use today, and so I make the assumption that the same sort of assumptions were made by those that did the early measurements. I do not think that the 'belief of most beekeepers' would impinge on anyone actually taking the trouble to make measurements. To give a better 'label' to a cell size it should be stated in terms of the range of the variation. The centre point of the standard deviation would make a good choice for a single figure approximation. The number of cells and method of measuring would need to be specified as well as the region of comb and it's relationship to the centre (of the nest and the standard deviation). It would not surprise me if the figures produced by simple averaging done today were similar to the centres of ranges that are measured today. If that is true then we can use the old figures quite happily, if however there are differences between range centres and averages, then the ratio of these modern differences could be applied to the figures from the 1880s to give a 'corrected' value. I hate to use the word 'corrected' in the above sentence, because it implies that they were 'wrong' back in 1880 and we are 'right' in 2005, but I could not find a better word :-) Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:33:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" Comments: To: olda.vancata@QUICKNET.SE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >We don't really know what we are testing or what we are not testing (by a pin/freezing test). I would say the above is the complicated version. The simple version is plain and simple. How long does it take a hive to clear the dead brood. Although the Sweden test results for the freezing method & pin method are similar they are not identical. We get almost identical results when two separate freeze tests are done days apart on the same hive. If the tests done in Sweden were repeated in a few days would the pin method be almost the same as the first? The inconsistency in two pin tests as opposed to the consistency of two freeze tests is what has raised the question of the accuracy of the pin test. I think you might agree that the freeze test is considered the most reliable by researchers at this point in time? > And it's much faster, less labor intensive and makes possible to compute exact numbers (comparable data). Most believe the freeze test is faster when a piece of PVC pipe and liquid nitrogen is used to instantly freeze kill the brood? See my article on Russian bees in the January 2005 Bee Culture for a picture of the liquid nitrogen method only a tin can is used instead of PVC in the picture. Granted the old Steve Tabor cutting of a section & placing in the freezer and then replacing in the hive would take longer than the pin prick. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:41:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Waggle Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Olda, Thankyou so much for your unbiased opinion in presenting the facts in such a clear and kind manner, you are a true asset to the list! The information below from what I can decipher is fascinating, does anyone one here know of a Internet link where this manuscript can be translated in it's entirety? Thanks! --- Olda Vancata wrote: ...the graphs on pages 3 and 4 clearly shows that > the results from > pin test and freezing test correlate. http://www.quicknet.se/home/q-119076/BONUS/HYG/stjalpa.pdf > > frysdödat = killed by freezing > nåldödat = killed by a pin > tid(timmar) = time(hours) > tomma celler = empty cells -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:45:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Google Earth! In-Reply-To: <003301c5d593$736cb4e0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen > Anyone can download Google Earth for free at http://earth.google.com/. Anyone may download it, but it will only work on systems that are grounded in NT or Cross Platform technology, It does not work on Chicago based platforms (I do not know why). Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:02:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > until the SMR content was reduced to 25%. Very useful information. I did not go to the 25% level in production hives but I might now. >" Could you do so here? I might try in person with you at a meeting. Took Dr. Harbo forty five minutes of talking with me to cover the basics but I still had some problems at first he left out. I have been hoping for an article giving the instructions as all I have got is my notes and experience of trying to apply his work . Dr. Harbo has avoided the subject in presentation questions (as has Marla )as best left for the researcher. Eye strain & low back pain are problems I have had while doing the work. Interruptions annoy me! Percentage of mite in brood (PMIB) is complicated also. I have never yet attempted PMIB yet. I believe (although never explained the procedure fully) the whole hive is depopulated and then each brood cell is pulled and mature varroa counted. The varroa are removed from the bees by several methods (similar to testing for varroa) and counted. Then a percent if figured. My opinion is PMIB varies for many reasons and not as important to me as SMR. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:13:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The test is a valuable test but hardly on a level with Dr. Harbo & Dr. > Harris SMR & PMIB research (as far as time and labor involved). > I was taught by Dr. Harbo himself after his presentation at an ABF meeting > I believe in 2002 in Savannah. Once the procedure was explained to me in > detail I quickly picked up the procedure. It is very interesting to look over Dr. Harbo's shoulder, so to speak, and see what he has been observing. A camera focused on a brood comb surface in the lab allows one to uncap and look into cells and see the mites inside running around on a TV-like monitor. See http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/harbo(1).jpg and http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/images/harbo(2).jpg for pictures of the lab set-up. Both matures, immatures, and fecal spots and other features are very obvious, and their states, conditions, and activities can be observed quite clearly and comfortably. As mentioned here before, the observations made are very detailed. > Much much more is involved in evaluating hygienic behavior in bees in my > opinion. We have only scratched the surface! It seems that the definition is expanding as well, if there actually is a definition. Maybe it is just a word that means what the user wishes. > Most bees which show SMR do not test hygienic by Marla's method. Brood I > have pulled and check for varroa reproduction in hygienic queen headed > hives have not shown the lack of varroa reproduction that the SMR breeder > queen daughter hives have. > Some SMR F1 hives don't even clean the bottom boards! Some (if not most) > were not exceptional housekeepers but terrible housekeepers! This is the interesting and very significant point. Apparently the concept of hygienic behaviour is expanding and assimilating an increasing range of behaviours. And apparently, now, 'hygienic' bees need not exhibit the full set of behaviours???? I'm curious about his process of word drift, since, in my lifetime, I have seen many words and phrases mutate in usage, sometimes to a point where they are used in a way that seems opposite to their original meaning. allen Education's purpose is to replace an empty mind with an open one. -- Malcolm Forbes, in Forbes Magazine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:21:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Waggle Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" --- allen dick wrote: I'll try and post again,,, (Quotes have been removed,) In reference to Allens quote that from an Abstract "Honey bees, Apis mellifera, which perform hygienic behavior, quickly detect, uncap and remove diseased brood from the nest. This behavior, performed by bees 15- 20 days old and prior to foraging..." Note the word, "diseased", not, "parasitized" or "distressed". These people choose their words with care." Hi Allen, Please note the in the Technical Abstract by Kavinseksan, B., Wongsiri, S., Rinderer, T.E., DE Guzman "The hygienic behavior of honey bees (Apis spp) is a mechanism of disease and mite resistance. Hygienic honey bees detect, uncap, and remove diseased or parasitized brood, including the parasites, from the colony." http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/Publications.htm? seq_no_115=163616&pf=1 Allen, Please not the words Hygienic honey bees detect, uncap, and remove "parasitized brood" "including the parasites" These people choose their words with care! ;>) SMR ='s Hygineic! ;>) Allen mentioned that "if uncapping and pulling out reproducing mites caught in the act doesn't constitute "meddling with mite reproduction", then what does? Reply: Caught in the act of what? The honeybees are simply removing "parasitized brood" "including the parasites" as the definition describes hygienic behavior in the Abstract above. The term 'Hygienic behavior' was 'I believe' defined by Rothenbuhler in 1964 and was thought to be an effective trait to control foulbrood and other disease. Due to the advent of the mites much later, term has since been redefined to include the removal of parasitic mites etc. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:56:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: What I Like Most About BEE-L In-Reply-To: <200510211344.j9LD2tPB009999@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chuck > (5) A GOOD POST IS ONE THAT YOU CAN LEAN ON; IT WILL TAKE > THE WEIGHT OF TIME. > (6) ANYONE CAN DANCE. (Almost) BEE-L has a wide variety of members in many diverse locations, many members are not beekeepers, by virtue of a job or profession and can thus bring skills and knowledge to the table, from their chosen profession. I have had a look at my own posts as Allen pointed out how to do in message number 053386, it is humbling to see how much I have ranted over the last six years, I have made many contacts and have had many illuminating discussions, both on and off the list. I have met only about 50 list members 'in the flesh' (by virtue of being in UK), Bob Darrell is one of those that I have met and he talks of gaining from a post because he 'knows' the person concerned, I go along with that notion as I read every post, then delete them or leave them in one of the many folders that I store emails that have info that I can search for in future. Some subjects re-occur, from time to time, but this is not a bad thing... Each time a subject is revisited, something new is injected into the discussion. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:06:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" In-Reply-To: <001601c5d77e$6a8b6aa0$2cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: > We have used Marla Spivak hygienic drones for a > cross but the hybrid did not > improve. We tried other hybrids. Still no > improvement. Poor brood viability. I have seen brood viability that looked a bit spotty to me but in my hygienic colonies that actually tested acceptable at above 85%. This is a bit puzzling to me, and I am still advancing in this area because I hate spotty brood, and yet somewhat acceptable still, because IMO this is reflective of a highly developed hygienic sensitivity in removing fondress and not necessarily indicating poor queen viability. IMO, In most instances 'overall fecundity in the broodnest' (ref. Bro Adam) would be a better judge in queen performance. > Come on lurkers not worried about your reputation! > Speak up about your > experience! There are some lurkers that have spoken up about SMR, but not on this list. Since Jim intended this for public consumption by mentioning it on a 'public forum', I will mention it here. First, let me get the formalities out of the way as it seems to be the practice we are adopting here. I dearly admire Spivak, Huber, Bro Adam, Dee Lusby, Harbo, Jim Fischer, Dave C and the many others, far too many to list, for their work helping the beekeeping community. I love them all dearly, and comments made on this list are never intended to offend or disrespect anybody and are only intended for promoting discussion and progressive thinking! Jim Fischer has mentioned on Beesource, in the "Beekeeping 101" forum, post #1737 Stated in the "What's "SMR"?" thread: The question was "What's SMR?". Jims answer was: "Superior Marketing Rationale"! "By convincing beekeepers that they are "selecting" for some trait or other, bee producers (not to be confused with actual breeders, who really DO selection and crossbreeding in an organized manner to produce a small number of superior queens) give the (incorrect) impression that they are adding value to the product, but avoiding objective metrics that the beekeeper could use to evaluate the actual queens sold by the producer." (Jim and I don't always agree, but I do value his contributions to discussions as riveting and challenging to defend against at times.) I don;t know Jim's current position on the subject of SMR, but I suspect that any criticism by him expressed here on this list might be softened a bit due to not wanting to disagree with the 'friends'. But I do agree here that SMR is "Superior Marketing Rationale"! And I hope speaking one's own thoughts would continue to be encouraged on this list always. Best Wishes http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=search If you search: forum 'beekeeping 101' search words 'SMR' member name 'Jim Fischer' The message 'should' come up. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:27:21 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@wctel.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" (long) In-Reply-To: <001701c5d77e$6be2bd40$2cbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: >...I suppose I possibly have the most SMR experience on the list or at least >the most which will talk... >I was taught by Dr. Harbo himself after his presentation at an ABF meeting I >believe in 2002 in Savannah.... If a member of the list has tested for SMR it would be interesting to hear >what their thoughts are. Any around willing to talk?... > I don't post often, a few years ago I described some of my methods and it was suggested to report back in a few years (I think expecting all my hives would die by then). Here's part of the report in response to Bob's question, tho I can't say I've "tested": Since that meeting and Dr Harbo's input, I have incorporated his methods into my hive inspections, using a natural history rather than full science. Since he found that SMR traits didn't show in hives with new SMR queen introductions until the second worker generation, I figured that the SMR trait involved nurse bee behavior, and that it was in addition to the hygienic traits ID's in AFB work. Having used no harsh chemicals since 1997 (when I bought out an old-timer's Buckfast bees), and and not even formic since 2002, I have been using the Bond method, "live and let die" (coined in Bee Culture by assorted authors I haven't time to look up, I know Steve Taber was one), on my 35 to 60 hives. I started with screened bottom boards in 2000. We are outside commercial bee travel lanes. Every year I have brought a few and different queen lines in, including Russian hybrids and SMR hybrids from the first years available, most of the hygienic lines, 'feral' hives, and several different sources of commercial queens. This in addition to my own bees. I use swarm cells (often encouraged by crowding) from the earliest swarms and splits for new queens. The few surrounding beekeepers mostly use Russian or hygienic stock or my queens. Every year more swarms are found from feral hives, mostly my escaped swarms or their progeny. I.E., I have a fairly isolated location with mostly wild forage into which I've been pouring bees selected for disease and mite resistance from many genetic sources and races, then letting it all simmer and stir. I do use a pollen substitute, syrup, and vegetable oil paste in hives whenever I work them (which is needing to be less and less), and I do feed sugar syrup in the open in the winter and sometimes during serious dearth. When in doubt, I'm leaving honey on until I'm sure they've got winter stores. If they are too weak to get the open feed, so be it (except the occasional tiny nuc just made). My losses vary, here in Upper Piedmont SC we've had some brutal droughts, but usually about 5-10 % in late summer early fall (usually probable varroa or queenless), and 5-10% in very late winter when a cold snap gets a small cluster (sometimes queen failure, I rarely have enough drones in mid to late summer supercessions, and probably also tracheal mites). There are lots of other details, but that sort of gets the picture. No science (I have a biology BS), but I keep notes, and things like SMR traits and hygienic traits guide stock selection. Obviously winter conditions for this latitude of 33 degrees, 50' 49" and altitude (500 ft) apply. I also spend a good bit of time staring at the observation hive. Bottom line, over the last few years I have seen a number of characteristics increasing. They are not necessarily associated with my improving disease resistance and survival, just observations: --less and less body hair, especially on the thorax [harder for mites to hold on?] --tolerance of other queen cells and virgin queens, plus continuing presence of a single active queen cell most of the time [I believe these came in with the Russians] --swarms with multiple virgins, sometimes as multiple swarms that may combine...2 different SMR hybrid lines tend to do this, plus Russians [I do clip queens, so primary swarm usually returns and if I don't split right away I get these multiples from some lines.) --drone color usually more like the Russians for the first few years (more of a silvery cast than gold), now they are blending more [again, high proportion of Russian genes in survivors?]. --vigorous allogrooming behavior, especially focused around wing bases [per Dr. Jamie Ellis, tracheal mites enter the wing-base spiracles], varroa encountered may be chased, but apparently are not primary focus. --careful inspection of incoming bees, I've seen entrance board 'groomathons' of bees that I've pulled and that had varroa on them. --increase in use of propolis, including cages for wax moth larvae, adult hive beetles, ant and spider nests under cover, etc. --partial uncapping of pupae after cocoon is finished, cleaning all of the cell in reach and then recapping sometimes days later [could this be the SMR trick partly?]. --spinning varroa mites into the cocoon. --inspections of worker and drone brood at purple-eyed phase rarely show more than one reproductive mite. --sticky boards show mostly damaged mites, counts are usually below economic threshold, tho I use them less and less...oh for some grad students with grants! --bees are very aggressive to insect intruders, and dead hornets and other bee species are often found outside. Lately hive beetles are usually caged on top of inner cover, and when I break the propolis the beetles are chased and bitten, sometimes losing legs but getting away (for now). --working in much colder conditions than my original commercial stock, also working very late in evening and early in morning. Bees often sun on a sunny wall periodically in cool weather. --fewer and fewer deformed wing bees, even in hives in trouble. AFAIK I've not had problems with paralytic viruses (yet?) --very motley looking workers, clearly the variety of genetic sources and multiple drones is showing phenotypically. --good housekeeping, no trash on floor, etc. Regular appearance of larval and pupal carcasses and parts carried out of hive. --I'm sure I've forgotten some major features, but I believe a little natural history is a good thing, and the only thing available with research money so tight. Most good biology starts from simple observation and that's something we sideliners and hobbyists can offer. Meanwhile I've got outyard colonies that are thriving without any help (or hindrance) from me for 3, 4 and 5 years. Two groups are outside range of my colonies for drones, tho I suspect any 'feral' bees are from my stock. Of course I don't know whether I'm getting stronger bees or weaker mites, population biology would suggest both in a new host/parasite relationship, since killing one's obligate host is a dead-end for a parasite. Just a few observations to stir into the pot....Carolyn in Plum Branch, SC, Lakelands Beekeepers Association -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:29:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Research Bias MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We used to do this in turf trials for grubs in Ohio. The University > would put out the treatments, in August all the commercial technical > reps would evaluate the plots by digging grubs and recording the > results. I will tell you that this method kept you honest. That is an interesting story, much like a mother having one child divide the cookie or pie, for several siblings, but then having to have the last choice of the pieces. It is amazing how accurately the job is done. That also reminds me that often when observations are made, they may be very accurate, but misunderstood due to overlooking an essential part of the context or concentrating on a desired result -- much like the SMR thing.. A few years ago, on canola pollination, we heard some talk questioning the numbers of bees found in crops and reflecting back badly on some beekeepers supplying the hives. Not wanting to be accused of poor coverage, I started doing my own bee counts in the fields we were pollinating and recording them. The hives we provided shared the fields with leaf-cutter bees which were there to provide half the pollination, as a complement to the honey bees. The leaf-cutters were known not to forage far, and circles of higher set seed were often visually observable, centred on the huts where the leaf-cutters were housed. The assumption was that this was due to the leaf cutters activity. As I mapped the bee coverage, I noticed that there was a noticable increase in honey bee density right in the zone that is mentioned above, and realised that it is highly likely - in my mind, at least - to the fact the seed fields are large tracts with few landmarks, other than the edges and the huts. My guess was that the higher density of better pollination may have been due to the fact that honey bees were orienting to the huts and using them for reference, not necessarily to the activity of the leaf-cutters! FWIW. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 11:42:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Due to the advent of the mites much later, term has since been redefined > to include the removal of parasitic mites etc. Apparently, but when and by whom? How does an change become official, and where does this redefining end? How does one go about changing the meaning of a commonly used word that has a specific meaning? In law, words have very specific meanings, and I had assumed so in science. In law, words can change over time, but only through well-defined processes -- AFAIK. (I'm not a lawyer -- or a scientist.). allen Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all. -- William Goldman, "The Princess Bride" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:40:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Jims answer was: "Superior Marketing Rationale"! > > "By convincing beekeepers that they are "selecting" for some trait or > other, bee producers (not to be confused with actual breeders, who really > DO selection and crossbreeding in an organized manner to produce a small > number of superior queens) give the (incorrect) impression that they are > adding value to the product, but avoiding objective metrics that the > beekeeper could use to evaluate the actual queens sold by the producer." > (etc.) I doubt any of us would disagree with this, and, in fact many of us have said something similar here, over and over, and would endorse the entire article as-is ... and say, "Amen!". Something worth noting is that the mention of SMR in the piece in question does not seem to relate to actual SMR or Harbo's work, but rather the posers who use currently exciting names, acronmyms and hype for marketing stock that does not measure up to what the scientists and industry can produce. I, too, have ranted against buying bees that are less than what they could be in an article written years ago, at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/hygienic.htm In part the article says: "If everyone insists on hygienic traits when breeding and buying queens, within a few years diseases like AFB (including SAFB), chalkbrood and sacbrood should be reduced to minor nuisances, but it will take co-operation by all beekeepers. Here is how everyone can help: DON'T BUY QUEENS UNLESS THE SUPPLIER CAN TELL YOU CONVINCINGLY HOW THEY STACK UP IN HYGIENIC TESTS. Consider testing the queens you buy and let it be publicly known if the queens do not measure up when fairly and honestly compared to others. DON'T BREED QUEENS UNLESS THE PARENT STOCK IS PROVEN TO BE HYGIENIC. Also, test at least representative samples of the offspring periodically. The genetics of eggs queens lay vary over time. FWIW, I felt I was pushing the envelope in making such a strong statement then, but today it does not seem at all rash, and hygienic traits are all the rage. I hope it stays that way. As for whether anyone should run out and buy SMR queens, although we have said it here again and again over the years, we must point out that the SMR lines Harbo developed -- or whatever they are calling them today -- were not meant to be a commercial line of bees, but were a quick and dirty experimental line developed to isolate and refine a specific effect (no matter how it may have been misunderstood and no matter whatever word or collection of letters is curently used to indicate it). Harbo warned everyone over and over that they were *not* meant to be used in production hives or even necessarily for incorporation into breeders' lines. The process he used, rather than the bee, was the point, and a number of good, honest breeders have used it to improve their stoc, but, as Jim has observed, some have used "SMR" to hype their mongrel stock. However, people being what they are, many immediately wanted the actual SMR bees to breed into their stock so as to cut the development time down, and were willing to ignore the fact that the SMR lines were -- other than in this one particular regard -- lousy bees! So, SMR lines were shared with the industry, and the rest is history. So, we have what was an experiment to develop a method to demonstrate and isolate a specific effect turned into something else altogether. And, although the discovery that came from John's work was accidental and not what he thought at first, it is still very valuable. I hope he gets the credit he deserves for providing us with another important piece of the puzzle and the work he does for our industry. allen If at first you don't succeed, find out if the loser gets anything. -- Bill Lyon -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:16:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Feral colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...but bee sizes are fairly consistent, with early spring bees being about > the same size, large cell or small cell and only later do large cell get > bigger than small, but not that much. We always had small bees in spring, but, as reported here previously, we did not notice this much, after we started feeding pollen supplement in spring. We assumed the small size was due to poorer nutrition in spring due to older nurse bees, more brood being reared, and less fresh pollen available, and therefore that feeding them was a good idea. There is that word again -- assume. allen I have long been of the opinion that if work were such a splendid thing the rich would have kept more of it for themselves. -- Bruce Grocott -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:11:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Waggle Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" Olda Vancata wrote: ...The pin test WILL DO. >http://www.quicknet.se/home/q-119076/BONUS/HYG/stjalpa.pdf Hi Olda, someone help, I'm searching for a way to translate the page. Thanks! I'm glad we can count on our friends overseas to show our youngsters these simple methods are effective. Thanks. To Olda & All, Pertaining to resistance to foulbrood in hygienic honeybees. When do they detect the infection and at waht stage is it cleaned it up? For example, Would it be common in hygienic bees infected with AFB, to develop a case of AFB that was limited to less than 15 cells and cleaned up while the infection was still in the vegetative stage? Would a colony that cleaned up infection in the vegetative stage in your opinion require burning or other treatment? Or would it be considered cured because the infection did not advance to the contagious spore stage? Also, AFB resistant bees are said to also clean up AFB spores in infected honey by action of the honey stopper. The honey stomach retains the spore containing honey load in the honey stomach and controls passage of food into the midgut filtering out the spores.,, Is there a selection technique for this? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:15:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: What I Like Most About BEE-L In-Reply-To: <435BC0D9.3050503@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dave Cushman wrote: > I have met only about 50 list members 'in the flesh' > (by virtue of being > in UK),,, Dave, When are you coming to the USA? ;>) Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:25:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Joe Waggle Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Malone wrote: (In reference to Bob I still don't buy it in spite of the evidence, and hoping to live long enough to see the *SMR trait does not exist* be proven incorrect.) > See how proof and facts are treated, the same as > opinions, that's funny. Thanks Bob, for proving my > opinion about facts not always being proof in > science or proof not always proving a fact.... Keith's got you this time Bob. ;>) A wise old timer once said, "Never fall in love with an idea" I agree with Keith that opinions based on anecdotal observations are good until proofs come along that prove them otherwise. This is what Harbo has done with the SMR theory, and this is good research. Harbo is now saying it is caused by exceptional developed hygienic trait as the facts revealed and he is now abandoning the 'suppression theory',,, this is good research. In this case, a few here may have been a bit guilty of 'falling in love with an idea' (SMR). When you fall in love with an idea, it can be very difficult to let go when the facts start presenting themselves proving otherwise. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:17:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought that both Allen and Bob as well as myself, in http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0510&L=bee- l&D=1&O=A&P=36644, have been quite clear in supporting the continued evidence and existence of SMR; and it was done with the same documented and published work that had been represented by the dissenting poster saying that ““……The SMR bees do not exist”. Contrary thoughts and ideas are welcome when given as such; but when a poster stipulates as fact such statements as “……The SMR bees do not exist” without substantiated documentation and minces words contrary to fact and without a direct quote when giving creditability to his own work; yet, refuting that what has been carefully researched and submitted is beyond me. I truly do not know the motives of such posts; my thoughts are given here alone as I realize that there are many reading BEE-L fairly new to serious beekeeping and the war against the Varroa. These folks may know very little about such things as SMR, hygienic behavior, and other such matters that have been presented and discussed; (IMO) they are open to harm to such adulterations. IMHO to corrupt the work of Harbo and Harris, and Ibrahim and Spivak as recently presented within USDA and private publications by these extremely knowledgeable world renown scientists with such narcissistic nonsense that has lately been demonstrated is clearly reproachable. Perhaps I may have missed something, I suggest that if you are able to present quoted published evidence supporting your theory please do so, I would welcome the read as I know would others. However, if you are going to present your own words as a paraphrase as those written in published papers please be accurate to the letter that they are indeed your words and your ideas and not of the published credible writer, as you could be open to slander. One’s creditability as based solely on the acceptance of others; genuine mistakes can be forgiven; however, when crying “wolf, wolf!” there better be a real wolf and not some ship shod anecdotal evidence. Chuck Norton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:50:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" Comments: To: Joe Waggle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To the Moderators, Extensively Revised: To All, On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:25:48 -0400, Joe Waggle wrote: "Harbo is now saying it is caused by exceptional developed hygienic trait as the facts revealed and he is now abandoning the 'suppression theory'... ... When you fall in love with an idea, it can be very difficult to let go when the facts start presenting themselves proving otherwise." I thought that both Allen and Bob as well as myself, in http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0510&L=bee- l&D=1&O=A&P=36644, have been quite clear in supporting the continued evidence and existence of SMR; and it was done with the same documented and published work that had been represented by the dissenting poster saying that ““……The SMR bees do not exist”. Contrary thoughts and ideas are welcome when given as such; but when a poster stipulates as fact such statements as “……The SMR bees do not exist” without substantiated documentation and minces words contrary to fact and without a direct quote when giving creditability to his own work; yet, refuting that what has been carefully researched and submitted is beyond me. I truly do not know the motives of such posts; my thoughts are given here alone as I realize that there are many reading BEE-L fairly new to serious beekeeping and the war against the Varroa. These folks may know very little about such things as SMR, hygienic behavior, and other such matters that have been presented and discussed; (IMO) they are open to harm from such adulterations. IMHO to corrupt the work of Harbo and Harris, and Ibrahim and Spivak as recently presented within USDA and private publications by these extremely knowledgeable world renown scientists with such narcissistic nonsense that has lately been demonstrated is clearly reproachable. Perhaps I may have missed something, I suggest that if one is able to present quoted published evidence supporting one’s theory please do so, I would welcome the read as I know would others. However, if one is going to represent one’s own words or ideas as what has previously been written in published papers please be accurate to the letter that they are indeed your words and your ideas and not of the published credible writer, as one could be open to slander. One’s creditability as based solely on the acceptance of others; genuine mistakes can be forgiven; however, when crying “wolf, wolf!” there better be a real wolf and not someslip shod anecdotal evidence. Chuck Norton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:29:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Allen Dick's Diary & Other's Too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To The List, Allen please forgive me for putting my nose into your business; but! It's been a while since Allen has put a new page in his diary; I most certainly hope that this valuable and historical piece of "how to" beekeeping literature will remain online as a reference resource for all. Someday in the far far future Allen's Diary may very well become abandoned. If that were allowed to happen it would be "A SHAME". Other electronic publications, websites, and logged entries by folks such as the "Old Drone" and that Maryland "Beekeeper, not BEHAVER", http://www.beekeeper.org, are either in a demagnetized black hole or are tethering upon a string. Such rich and valuable information should be stored in an on-line accessible university library or some other universally accessible location. This is my humble opinion, what’s your? Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:05:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Research cuts?? In-Reply-To: <009001c5d7f7$54a28c40$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm a little out of touch - has anybody heard if the few remaining USDA-ARS beelabs might be cut to help "pay the bills"? - John Edwards -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:13:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Google Earth! In-Reply-To: <435BA220.1020400@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ya lost me - It works fine, but slow, on my Dell with XP-Pro, through Earthlink, over a dialup connection - took about 30 minutes to download. - lotsa fun - I could see the color of the cars in the Tucson beelab parking lot. - John Edwards (whatsa Chicago based platform? - sounds like a pizza!) Dave Cushman wrote: > Hi Allen > >> Anyone can download Google Earth for free at http://earth.google.com/. > > > Anyone may download it, but it will only work on systems that are > grounded in NT or Cross Platform technology, It does not work on Chicago > based platforms (I do not know why). -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 20:53:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Rhododendron Honey In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE09210142E0CE@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed >Rhododendron will not cause insanity (permanently) but it will make you >sick. Toxins in the nectar. Not strictly true. Yes, some types of Rhododendron, in particular the Himalayan originating types, have this. But Rhododendron is also a frequently sold speciality honey from the Pyrenees region and some other parts of France. I suspect it is gathered in other parts too. I think this comes from a European originating type. I like it, have eaten lots of it, have some in stock here now, and it is a fairly frequently traded honey for a niche market. We used to pack it for Fortnum and Mason in London, before the contract passed to another business. Light coloured, best sold as a near white crystallised honey, with an attractive floral flavour and just a hint of spiciness. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 05:38:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" (long) Comments: To: wwfarm@WCTEL.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Carolyn & All, Enjoyed your update! Looks to me like your hives did not all die like the person thought but your methods produced success for you. All that matters. You have got keen powers of observation. >Since that meeting and Dr Harbo's input, I have incorporated his methods into my hive inspections, I worked on his methods hard for awhile and then drifted into the Rinderer Russian program. I have picked up a couple tidbits in the discussion which make me want to revisit the *SMR*/ super hygienic bee again. A light bulb has went on. > Bottom line, over the last few years I have seen a number of characteristics increasing. I am impressed with what you have accomplished with your apiary! I followed similar methods. It has been interesting looking back and thinking about the methods presented on the net and by researchers and what worked and what didn't. I think I know what to select for in those *SMR* (now renamed named super hygienic) breeder queens! Like Carolyn did I will report back when I see if my new different approach works. The "live and let die" method is popular. Fair to say has not worked for all which have tried the method. Fair to say has been expensive for those which have used the method.Both Dee & Dann Purvis have told me so! I never let mine die but pulled the hive headed down the wrong path. moved to a remote yard. Treated and produced honey and then requeened the next spring with a new survivor choice. A method I highly recommend over any other method if concerned about your bottom line but moving hives around for me is easy. Even singles from pallet to pallet. "The Russian import" I thought would surely be a disappointment. I was surprised by the results. I feel I understand the bee now after four years and could use successfully commercially but not the bee I would select from the choices available if not for the varroa & tracheal mite tolerance. I won't go into all the other varroa control methods around but see long term problems with most. The key for me has always been with the queen herself. I always wanted a systemic solution for varroa but researchers are not looking so I guess will never come. Works with ticks on dogs & cats but complicated research has always been the reply from researchers. Drop the systemic in syrup and forget about varroa . one bite and varroa is history! > Most good biology starts from simple observation and that's something we sideliners and hobbyists can offer. I don't know why most beekeepers do not realize the above! Being observant is better than a nose stuck in beekeeping books! Mites , queen producers and the weather are blamed for poor beekeeping practices not being observant most of the time! One of the most asked questions of me has been how can you look carefully at all your hives and get everything done. I don't look closely at ever hive except once a year in spring! In experiment hives I spend the amount of time needed to closely observe. Production hives are treated very different. They are the product of my closely observed experiments! I consider production hives either a year experiment or a two year experiment. The queen is (as Dr. Larry Conner says) the most important insect in the hive. I focus on her! Excellent queens don't cost they pay dividends! In 2006 I predict we will see the price of a single queen rise to the $20 dollar level in the U.S.for the first time in history. In the $50 range for a package will be the norm! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:49:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Acclimatization or Hygienic? In-Reply-To: <002901c5d680$d5f21fe0$21bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob > As to wintering Italians I refer beekeepers to the publication & video by > Marla Spivak " Wintering in Northern climates" which deals with the > wintering of Italians. Is this video available as a file over the web ??? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:17:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" In-Reply-To: <200510240350.j9O3TmUp002304@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Chuck Norton wrote: > I thought that both Allen and Bob as well as myself, > have been quite clear in supporting the continued > evidence and existence of SMR; OK, produce the evidence! How about quotes and refrences this time and not just opinion. Where is this evidence that SMR is NOT what Harbo says; simply highly developed hygienic behavior. Lets see some facts. >IMHO >to corrupt the work of Harbo and Harris, and Ibrahim >and Spivak... Oh, come on! LOL If any research cannot stand up to a few questions or accusations from a hobby beekeeper, then it is surly not valid research. Harbo, Harris, Ibraham, and Spivak (whom I love dearly) would surly agree with me. Why are you scared of testing or even talking about a theory? ..I truly do not know > the motives of such posts; The motive is to discuss and debate as all discussion lists do. If studies cannot hold up to a few questions, then what good is the study? Harbo has said SMR is simply a hygienic bees, show me other wise, let's see your proof that opposes Harbos statements. IMO, it 'your comments' that are harming him for they don;t seem to be his current views on the subject. SO lets see this evidence. I surly hope that 'younze all' would stick to the facts this time without interjecting opinion or personal attacks. Or is this evidence top secret? As my friend Jim Fisher (WILD) would say. "Put up, or shut up" Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:41:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: STORE OF KNOWLEDGE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Concerning Irimies's Pink Pages, Allen Dick's Diary, and even Bee-L, Chuck said "Such rich and valuable information should be stored in an on-line accessible university library or some other universally accessible location." I could not agree more. I recently spent many enjoyable hours reading American Beekeeping Journals from the late 1940's and early 1950's, and improved my perspectives while noting how much has changed in beekeeping. Sometimes it takes 50+ years to see these matters in a clear light. Some quick thoughts from the Journals of 50+ years ago: 1. *Major* advertisers were the several manufacturers of comb honey foundation. Some of these manufactured nothing else! 2. Post WW II honey price supports were what killed comb honey production! Comb honey was not included in the price support programs as "it is clear that all the comb honey produced can be sold at premium prices". So the government guaranteed the income of those who were producing a product that was not needed (extracted honey), wiht the result that production increased every year! With such an income guarantee, who would bother producing a product that had to be 'sold'? 3. Fewer than 10 of the organizations that produced queens in 1950 are still advertising today. 4. Dadant, Kelley and Root seemed to be the principal suppliers of beekeeping equipment. (I started beekeeping in 1967 and I recall that Root was a major supplier, with several branches. I am not clear when they close= d all but the store in Medina, but I think their last full catalog was issued in the 1980's.) 5. New York honey production was slipping, Ohio was a major producer, and California and Florida were barely 'on the charts'. 6. There was much interest in Caucasian bees, and Carniolans were just about unknown. 7. Very few of the advertisements included phone numbers, and most asked that inquiries be made in writing. 8. Interest in pollination services was in its infancy. Some beekeepers felt they should be paid a percentage of the selling price of the crop. Others wondered if it was worth moving the bees. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:41:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This whole thread is getting heated and perhaps headed nowhere other than my deleted items folder. I am always wary of quoted snippets of publications and claims the snippet "proves" the point trying to be made. Furthermore, I am always wary of posts that quote what was heard in presentations attended by the author. I have seen posts on BEE-L making assertions based on sessions where I too was in the audience and thought, "Hmmm, I didn't hear that said in the presentation." I am thankful for such posts, as they give me articles to read and food for thought. But I take everything I read on BEE-L with a grain of salt. In the past few days I've seen both sides of the "SMR" debate, snip Dr. John Harbo's writings saying it proves "SMR" does exist and proves "SMR" does not exist. Again I am wary that the snippets may be used out of context to prove assertions that may or may not be correct. "Harbo says" in the subject header is misleading; it should read "John Doe says Dr. Harbo says ..." And frankly folks, I am tired of all this "He said she said" that's been going around, especially when the hes and shes are taking pot shots at one another. Basta! Play nice or don't play at all. I have not heard Dr. Harbo first hand since 2003 and have not read the ENTIRITY of the articles from which snippets are being taken. I never heard Dr. Harbo assert that what he originally called "Suppressive Mite Reproduction" is not going on. I heard Dr. Harbo change the focus from SMR to PMIB (percentage Mites in Brood). His research continues and he is getting a better understanding of what is going on. Regardless what you call it, SOMETHING is going on! Whether mites simly aren't reproducing, or if they're not reproducing because they get cleaned out of the cell before they get a chance to reproduce (hence a lower overall percentage of mites in the brood), something is going on above and beyond what is going on in the average hive. So SMR yes, SMR no? It's symantics. Both sides are demanding, "Stick to the facts!". I'll add, "Stick to the facts and be civil about it!" And I'll remind readers, as Andy always said, "Opinions are not facts!" If snippets are quoted, include pointers to the entire article so informed readers can determine if what is being quoted is being delivered in or out of context. Oinions based on snippets still are not facts. Finally, just so people know a bit of the "behind the scenes", since last week I have received 6 requests from subscribers asking to be removed from BEE-L. Those are the ones I know about. The list owner need not be involved for subscribers to come and go. But AT LEAST 6 members have bailed in the past week, presumedly because they can't take the heat. "Is too!", "Is not!" is not what BEE-L is about. Please folks, let's be civil, lets be informed. Respectfully submitted, Aaron Morris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:42:51 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jo=E3o=20Campos?= Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" In-Reply-To: <200510240400.j9O3TmWH002304@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen: > This is the interesting and very significant point. > Apparently the concept of hygienic behaviour is expanding and > assimilating an increasing range of behaviours. D'accord. I only read the ARS report on Harbo's finding, but what caught my attention the most was the way the cell is usually cleaned - by eating the parasitized pupa. It is not what I would expected from a "hygienic" behaviour. AFAIK, when dead brood are found, hygienic bees usually take them out, as quickly and far from the hive as possible. And that's surely a good way to prevent new infections. But would eating the (parasitized, possibly diseased) brood be as good to improve the colony's health? It doesn't seem so. It seems to me, at first and mostly unqualified glance, that we are not looking at the same kind of stimulus when we watch the "traditional" HYG and the this "new" specialized HYG (SMR), although the effects might well be the same. I wonder if SMR isn't just some kind of canibalism, triggered by some special scent dispersed by the pupa or the varroa brood, that makes the pupa "tasty", much like diploid drones. And, if in the next chapter, we won't see that, actually, HYG has nothing to do with SMR, besides their sanitization effects. João Campos _______________________________________________________ Promoção Yahoo! Acesso Grátis: a cada hora navegada você acumula cupons e concorre a mais de 500 prêmios! Participe! http://yahoo.fbiz.com.br/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:06:07 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Winter ventilation for nucs. [Was: Getting colonies up to weig ht. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>...production colonies are heavy as lead...no feeding necessary. But my 4 frame nucs. I think nucs are like weak hives - they don't gather as much in proportion to large colonies. I've set up a single nuc to overwinter a spare queen and have been feeding it steadily. I checked my full-size colonies and it was nice to see a decreasing broodnest and solid frames of sealed honey above the brood. Mike, you have tons of experience overwintering nucs. Do you provide an upper entrance for ventilation and cleansing flights? Do you top-insulate and wrap? Thanks! Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:15:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bee yard Subject: Re: Allen Dick's Diary & Other's Too In-Reply-To: <200510240429.j9O4TspZ006358@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings! George Imirie's articles are not in a "black hole". All articles are listed here: www.mainebee.com On 10/24/05, Chuck Norton wrote: > > To The List, > > electronic publications, websites, and logged entries by folks such as > the "Old Drone" and that Maryland "Beekeeper, not BEHAVER", > http://www.beekeeper.org, are either in a demagnetized black hole or are > tethering upon a string. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:52:55 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Smallcell Beekeeping/TBH Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>...why don't y'all just keep your bees in log gums like God intended? Maybe skeps would be better. I thought about it. :) The only serious issue I have with both is that the combs are not inspectable/removeable. One needs to be able to inspect. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:42:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: 2006 Queen and Package Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In another thread Bob Harrison of Busy Bee Acres of Odessa, Missouri said, “In 2006 I predict we will see the price of a single queen rise to the $20 dollar level in the U.S. for the first time in history. In the $50 range for a package will be the norm!”. I am afraid that Bob’s predictions may just hold true. It will be interesting to see what the larger package and queen businesses will price their queens and packages this winter. AFAIK most of these folks are already “sold out” for April and early May shipments. Firm orders have been made during September and October without pricing. Why? The package and queen operations that supply and support early spring sales have been hit hard. In particular, the Gulf Coast States have taken a hard hit from Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. Even as I type, Hurricane Wilma is doing a number on South Florida, which supports honey production, pollination of winter grown vegetables, overwintering of pollinators, and a few queen and package producers. In addition, fuel, sugar and HFCS prices are currently higher that those we “enjoyed” last spring and will most likely not return to those levels anytime soon. “Old Man Winter” has yet to storm through the door and California’s almond and strawberry pollination requirements will be hard to fill even with support from Australian imports. November is just around the corner and most of us still have time to feed our bees and finish preparing for winter. Increasing your chances of winter survivability will most likely pay off big this spring. Making preparations now for spring with thoughtful planning, most likely by raising your own queens, will help to defray the cost of spring queen replacements and splits. And, IMHO those who wait until late winter or early spring to order packages, splits, and queens either locally or from out of state will be hard pressed to fill their needs. Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:23:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Testing finer sugars against Varroa In-Reply-To: <00af01c5d7bd$5edb5370$312665d5@roneefje> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ron I am still catching up with my backlog of Emails... > powdered sugars for sale in the different countries do differ, and not > just in name. Firstly they have different grain or particle sizes, > secondly different sugar sources can be used for the production and > thirdly different foreign substances (I found 5 so far Can you share with this list, your results so far ? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:55:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: What I Like Most About BEE-L In-Reply-To: <20051024011541.74592.qmail@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe & all > Dave, > When are you coming to the USA? ;>) I would love to to visit US, but mainly to meet beekeepers and researchers rather than the country. It is unlikely that I could make such a trip, the only way it could be funded is by 'working my ticket' with lectures, as I get more feeble the odds of being able to do enough lecturing to cover the cost becomes more remote. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:43:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Bad advice? In-Reply-To: <435BC7F9.4010106@wctel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carolyn Ehle wrote: > I don't post often, a few years ago I described some of my methods and > it was suggested to report back in a few years (I think expecting all my > hives would die by then). Here's part of the report in response to > Bob's question I wondered about that and checked the archives. What I found was you were trying FGMO and several posted that it was not the best way to go. You also described various other things you were doing, some of which did not appear to have much promise. What you have described in your most recent post is a varied approach to selecting for what works. You also brought in different bees so you are both selecting for the best bee and trialling others to see how they stack up. Both of these probably have much to do with your success. I, also, took that route, but more in the local selection with only some new outside bees. Your approach is much better than mine since you have more lines to choose from. (Actually sounds a lot like what Bob is doing, but on a smaller scale.) I saw "vegetable oil" in you post, but as a paste. Is this the latest FGMO application method? If so, we are almost back to the beginning of FGMO. Otherwise, it is a tracheal control, which does work. Interesting that not much has changed since then from those old posts (proponents and opponents of FGMO). Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:40:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Rose Subject: Re: Allen Dick's Diary & Other's Too In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > George Imirie's articles are not in a "black hole". All articles are listed > here: This makes me wonder about Dave Cushman's site. I can't think of a comparative site to Dave's, especially for British style beekeeping. I hate to raise this Dave but have you made arrangements for your resource to continue to be made available in the event of you picking a fight with a bus? I doubt if anyone will be able to keep it current as you do but at least it would be good to know that existing data would remain available. I hope you don't mind me raising such a morbid topic. Steve Rose -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:11:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Allen Dick's Diary & Other's Too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > logged entries by folks such as the "Old Drone" and that Maryland > "Beekeeper, not BEHAVER", http://www.beekeeper.org, are either in a > demagnetized black hole or are tethering upon a string. I tried to capture Andy's site, several times, but it was too dynamic to record. A large amount of the content was in links to other sites which had disappeared over time. Gene Brandi also looked for Andy's computer, but could not find it when we thought of it sometime after his death. Andy's bulletin board has also gone to the Great Bit Bucket in the Sky (G-BBS). As for my site, it is on a paid-up server on an account where I maintain quite a number of customer sites as well. Some of you on this list know that since your site is there with mine. Since My son-in-law is a partner in that enterprise, so I imagine that, should I disappear, honeybeeworld would continue for quite a long time. Moreover, there is nothing to keep anyone from downloading my entire site and putting it on CD. It would fit, and work from the CD without an Internet connection since the links are mostly relative links and the design is such that the site is largely self-contained. There are some external links, such as those to meetings and events, that go out of date, but the content links won't. As for sites disappearing, I have had problems chasing Dennis' site around from free provider to free provider. I can never find it on Google, so one day a while back, I downloaded the entire thing, and have it on disk, just in case. I've written offering him an advertising-free hosting on his own domain at no cost to him, as a public service, since I figure his site is a classic and a must-read for all. He is hard to catch, and though I wrote a time or two, I never heard back, so maybe he will read this and we'll see a permanent site come into existence and not have to look for the site on the back directory of some other large provider. Anyhow, my advice to all is to grab what you value off the net and store it somewhere, with the caveat that it could result in several sites going over temporarily bandwith, and shutting down temporarily. Also, some sites will limit how much a given IP can download at a time. Since my site is 172 MB, a few people downloading in a short timespan would trip an alarm. No big deal. It's easy to reset. While we are on the subject, Aaron and I have been worried about the archives of BEE-L over time, and have kept off-campus backups, but have not bothered lately. Maybe it is time again. allen Killfiles are magic ;>) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:10:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Acclimatization or Hygienic? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this video available as a file over the web ??? I don't believe so. The video is based on the wintering work of B. Furgala. Furgala wrote many articles years ago on his wintering research with Italian bees. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:15:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Definning the problem (was Re: [BEE-L] Harbo Says: "SMR ,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Campos raises an issue which has been blazing away by phone between me an a queen breeder. I need to leave every word in this quote for meaning! >It is not what I would expected from a "hygienic" behavior. AFAIK, when dead brood are found, hygienic bees usually take them out, as quickly and far from the hive as possible. BINGO! You win first prize! Exactly what the Marla Spivak hygienic bees do! >. But would eating the (parasitized, possibly diseased) brood be as good to improve the colony's health? > we are not looking at the same kind of stimulus when we watch the "traditional" HYG and the this "new" specialized HYG (SMR), although the effects might well be the same. The effects are the same! Wow Campos! You hit the nail directly on the head! I could not have explained better myself! >cannibalism, triggered by some special scent dispersed by the pupa or the varroa brood, that makes the pupa "tasty", much like diploid drones. Exactly like diploid ! Now we are at the problem. In my opinion Dr. Harbo bowed to the pressure that *all we are seeing* is cannibalism of parasitized brood removed in exactly the same way as diploid brood. Which is the argument of my queen breeder friend. A far more heated argument than the discussion on BEE-L! My side has been the queens have been inbred to a point the brood is diploid trying to enhance the trait. the reason why when you outcross to 25% SMR THE POOR BROOD VIABILITY disappears. Those are the two big issues! If the research community can prove with testing that the Harbo SMR line shotgun brood pattern is not caused by the normal (in every hive in the world) cannibalism of diploid brood in the SMR trait carrying colonies I will submit to the hypothesis SMR is simply the eating of paratizied brood. Which means the suppression of mite reproduction is done by the eating of the brood exactly like the eating of diploid brood. When varroa becomes food for bees the problem of varroa could end! In my observation hives hygienic bees pile up the dead brood (other than diploid). They carry around when the entrance is closed looking for a way to fly out. In SMR queen headed hives the bees eat the problem brood .Not found on the bottom board in the OB hive. I have no proof either way and expect none exists at this time! One would have to catch a bee eating the brood and then test to see if diploid! I do know through history the brood the bees eat always is the diploid brood UNLESS THE HIVE IS STARVING AND THEN BROOD CAN BE CANNIBALIZED. João Thanks for the post! Shows you are looking close at the issue instead of simply listening to the rhetoric! Bob _______________________________________________________ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:30:55 +0200 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Testing finer sugars against Varroa In-Reply-To: <435CE037.6030202@lineone.net> > > powdered sugars for sale in the different countries do differ, and > > not just in name. Firstly they have different grain or particle > > sizes, > Can you share with this list, your results so far ? Usefulness of such list depends on knowligde which particle size is most optimal. No such research have been done. Or? (all articles I know are talking just about "powder" - sugar, coal, flour, starch, sulphur etc without particle size specifications). \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:01:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Bad advice? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You also brought in different bees so you are both selecting for the best > bee and trialling others to see how they stack up. Both of these probably > have much to do with your success. I, also, took that route, but more in > the local selection with only some new outside bees. Your approach is much > better than mine since you have more lines to choose from. (Actually > sounds a lot like what Bob is doing, but on a smaller scale.) While speaking of starting with -- or introducing -- good stock, I wrote recently of "Welfare Bees", and a writer whom I assume to be a bee breeder, judging by his signature, replied: > > Not knowing how you fed, treated, managed or bred these bees, I would > > think you could have selected for a bee that survived well and still > > would put honey on your table top for sales. I , in turn replied: > Of course I could have, and did at one point later, with better foundation > stock, but that was not the point I was making. Actually I bought the > stock in question, then replaced it after it was not making me money and, > frankly, breeding from it would have been a waste of time. To get a good > result, it is best to start with good materials. --- At the time, I thought little of it, but then realised how important it is to start with good stock in the first place and/or introduce superior stock along the way . Brother Adam searched the world for bees that had the traits he sought. He did not just work with the local stock and hope to develop traits that were not at all apparent in his home apiary. I realise that some think he would have done better staying home, but that is the counter-argument. Selection for any characteristic is hard on the diversity in any population, and when several traits are sought at once, soon the supply of differing genes is exhausted, and the process deteriorates. To simply select for survival neglects the most important factor for many of us -- honey production, and the selection pressure is very heavy when looking for survivor bees. Many good bees fall by the wayside, and when we are done, what is left? If we started with good, productive, gentle stock, hopefully most of that will come through in the end product, but, if we start with junk, we'll end up with junk that survives. That is all. Welfare Bees. Thus I wait with considerable interest to see how much honey Lusbys eventually extract from their almost 1,000 hives. They have hives,that survive well and are resonably mild and also healthy but I do not know how much selection Dee has done for productivity. Maybe she will say. I know she was grafting some time back, and I also know that this past year or two have been very trying, with Ed's accident and the Big Move. Futher, Justin Schmidt, who knows the Tucson area well, was up here the other day and said -- in a different context -- that nobody can make a living producing honey around Tucson. I thought about that , and I guess I have to conclude that if Lusbys can get much of anything, that will be a proof of some sort. What will be interesting is whether they will prove productive in better honey regions. Maybe Dee will comment on where else her bees are under trial. Anyhow, selecting for one characteristic is fairly easy. Two is harder. Three more difficult yet, and four can be impossible without a sufficiently large and pre-selected population of bees to work with. IMO, anyhow. allen He wrapped himself in quotations- as a beggar would enfold himself in the purple of Emperors. -- Rudyard Kipling -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:03:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Definning the problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is *all we are seeing* cannibalism of parasitized brood exactly the same way as diploid brood? At first I thought this was quite an interesting possibility. But upon pondering for awhile I don't think this is the case. It's a chicken and eqq thing. At first, Dr. Harbo discovered bees that exhibited what he dubbed at the time "SMR". It was this trait that he successfully isolated by continually selecting for it. He did not consider any other trait other than what he dubbed "SMR". It was the continual selection for the SMR trait alone that produced bees that by his own admission were at that point terrible inbred, exhibiting spotty brood patterns. But it was the SMR trait that Dr. Harbo chose first, it was the constant selection and inbreeding that got us to the spotty brood. I am not dismissing the cannibalism of diploid brood possibility as far as where the bees may be today, but to be a player in the original game the bees had to have whatever was the SMR trait to get in the door. It's interesting to me to see the assertion that it takes an F2 hybrid to get from the spotty brood to an acceptable pattern. Again, not accepting or rejecting the assertion, I'm wondering if perhaps Dr. Harbo simply took the work too far and might have been better off stopping at the stage where it is asserted we must now backpedal. I'm not sure of the figures (percentages) John originally presented when he first started down this path, but my recollection is that it was just a few percentage points separating the SMR bees from the rejects. Interesting indeed! Aaron Morris - thinking you are what you eat! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:30:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gilles Maguet Subject: Creaming honey by freezing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone, I have a question related to freezing of raw honey. I usually pack a few thousand pounds of white honey which is mostly canola mixed with alfalfa and some clovers. When it sets, which is very fast, the honey is a nice creamy texture but very hard. We have the luxury of having a free walk in freezer in the honey house for most of the winter. This is where the honey is stored. When the honey is thawed and at room temperature again, it becomes soft and very easy to spread just like or better than spun or creamed honey from a honey packer. Can anyone explain what is happening? Gilles -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:09:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Google Earth! In-Reply-To: <435C7B88.7010300@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John > Ya lost me - It works fine, but slow, on my Dell with XP-Pro, XP stands for Cross Platform and will work > (whatsa Chicago based platform? Win 95, 98 or ME are all derived from the original 'Chicago' specification. Because I run my system 'my way', I do not use NT (New Technology) or XP and rely entirely on Win 98 + various, ever increasing, flavours of Linux. Sorry if this post is not bee related. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:01:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Definning the problem (was Re: [BEE-L] Harbo Says: "SMR ,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, Campos raises an issue which has been blazing away by phone between me an a queen breeder. I had hesitated to bring up the subject due to Joe as he clearly has never tried an SMR queen or done the SMR evaluation so he could not be on the same page with me. I still respect his views. I always learned more by listening than I ever did by talking. I need to leave every word in this quote for meaning! >It is not what I would expected from a "hygienic" behavior. AFAIK, when dead brood are found, hygienic bees usually take them out, as quickly and far from the hive as possible. BINGO! You win first prize! Exactly what the Marla Spivak hygienic bees do! >. But would eating the (parasitized, possibly diseased) brood be as good to improve the colony's health? > we are not looking at the same kind of stimulus when we watch the "traditional" HYG and the this "new" specialized HYG (SMR), although the effects might well be the same. The effects are the same! Wow Campos! You hit the nail directly on the head! I could not have explained better myself! >cannibalism, triggered by some special scent dispersed by the pupa or the varroa brood, that makes the pupa "tasty", much like diploid drones. Exactly like diploid ! Now we are at the problem. In my opinion Dr. Harbo bowed to the pressure that *all we are seeing* is cannibalism of parasitized brood removed in exactly the same way as diploid brood. Which is the argument of my queen breeder friend. A far more heated argument than the discussion on BEE-L! My side has been the queens have been inbred to a point the brood is diploid trying to enhance the trait. the reason why when you outcross to 25% SMR THE POOR BROOD VIABILITY disappears. Those are the two big issues! If the research community can prove with testing that the Harbo SMR line shotgun brood pattern is not caused by the normal (in every hive in the world) cannibalism of diploid brood in the SMR trait carrying colonies I will submit to the hypothesis SMR is simply the eating of paratizied brood. Which means the suppression of mite reproduction is done by the eating of the brood exactly like the eating of diploid brood. When varroa becomes food for bees the problem of varroa could end! In my observation hives hygienic bees pile up the dead brood (other than diploid). They carry around when the entrance is closed looking for a way to fly out. In SMR queen headed hives the bees eat the problem brood .Not found on the bottom board in the OB hive. I have no proof either way and expect none exists at this time! I do know through history the brood the bees eat always is the diploid brood UNLESS THE HIVE IS STARVING AND THEN BROOD CAN BE CANNIBALIZED. João Thanks for the post! Shows you are looking close at the issue instead of simply listening to the rhetoric! Bob _______________________________________________________ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:24:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Winter ventilation for nucs. [Was: Getting colonies up to weig ht. In-Reply-To: <20051024.060629.10232.42505@webmail64.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-232E844 > >I think nucs are like weak hives - They may be weak, compared to full sized colonies, but they act very much alike. Many of the good/bad traits you see in the nuc will carry on when the colony is transferred to 10 frame equipment. Temper, brood pattern, resistance to chalk, all seem to follow through to the full sized colony. >Mike, you have tons of experience overwintering nucs. Do you provide an >upper entrance for ventilation and cleansing flights? Do you top-insulate >and wrap? I don't provide an upper entrance, but I've been considering it...drilling a hole near the top of the box. As far as cleansing flights...I winter my nucs on top of production colonies, so the nuc's entrance is above the ice and snow line. I do top insulate with foam...directly on the nuc's inner cover(which is a grain bag) and wrap with a tarpaper wrapper. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:27:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Allen Dick's Diary & Other's Too In-Reply-To: <003201c5d8ad$44b87bd0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > Moreover, there is nothing to keep anyone from downloading my entire site > and putting it on CD. It would fit, and work from the CD without an > Internet connection since the links are mostly relative links and the > design Some sites, usually FAQ type, offer a zip file of the entire site so you can download it to your computer, or burn to a CD, and be able to access the site from your computer without going on line. Just a hint :) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:30:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Harbo has said SMR is simply a hygienic bees Do you know Harbo? Has he said this to you? Some of us do know him, and do speak with him, and know he would never use the word, "simply", in such a context. Those are simply not his words, and they would not be Jeff's either. Moreover, when discussing SMR, in person, in his lab, or on the podium, when I heard him -- and others will corroberate this -- he always stuck to discussing the observations and goals, and distinguished carefully between what they were observing and their hypotheses. This distinction and careful language was lost on many people. This problem plagues researchers when speaking to laymen, many of whom who do not understand the subtle distinctions between words and ideas, and who go more by general impression than what was actually said or written. At one time, when I was a BEE-L moderator, and someone appeared to be putting words in a researcher's mouth, we held the post and wrote the researcher to get the real facts. This saved BEE-L from embarrassment several times. Unfortunately, that does not appear to have been happening lately, and loose, simplistic paraphrases and general impressions have been let by repeatedly, posing as the words or opinions of authorities. Pity. allen Never eat more than you can lift. -- Miss Piggy -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:26:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Allen Dick's Diary & Other's Too In-Reply-To: <435CF241.1070803@tiscali.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Steve & all > This makes me wonder about Dave Cushman's site. Allen's advice about using CDs to keep your own archive is about the best that I can offer. It is flattering that it is considered worthy of retaining, especially as so much of it is based on UK bees, equipment and methods. My particular site is currently stored in several domains, which is why I am trying to update and re-code all files into one simple directory, this will take me another four years at current rates. The download is easy as my handwritten files carry no redundant code... The last time I looked it was only about 35 mb for the whole thing. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:00:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Allen Dick's Diary & Other's Too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Some sites, usually FAQ type, offer a zip file of the entire site so > you can download it to your computer, or burn to a CD, and be able to > access the site from your computer without going on line. Just a hint Thanks. For that matter, Microsoft Internet Explorer (r) has a feature allowing sets of pages to be saved for offline viewing. The feature is found in the dialog box that opens when saving favorites from the menu bar dropdown list. It can save quite a few related pages, using the wizard. The problem with the zip file idea is that it must be updated often if the site is changing. When I wrote every day, then it would have been a hassle. now that I update less often, it might work. allen Preserving health by too severe a rule is a worrisome malady. -- Francois de La Rochefoucauld -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:39:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Definning the problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Aaron & All, > It was the continual selection for the SMR trait alone that produced bees that by his own admission were at that point terrible inbred, exhibiting spotty brood patterns. The queen breeder I have been discussing the issue with reads BEE-L but rarely posts. Dr. Harbo has openly told us in presentations the SMR breeder queens were very inbred. Allen will say the same as I am sure Carolyn will.Aaron has said! After we purchased the first two SMR II breeder queens Dr. Harbo sent us a letter explaining the inbred problem WAS the reason for the spotty brood pattern and also in the F1. I may still have the paper. Our first grafts involved F1 daughters (125) and a Marla Spivak hygienic drone source. Still poor brood viability. these hives were production hives and even used for California almond pollination. I did raise a small number of F2 daughters mated to a feral survivor drone source (and what ever was flying in the area). I did still see what I considered poor brood viability (but improved)so I moved on. Every brood cell pulled because diploid or varroa infested brood hurts the colony! The colony will dwindle which is what happened with many of our F1 SMR colonies and also with a hive which is inbred to the stage of poor brood viability! >It's interesting to me to see the assertion that it takes an F2 hybrid to get from the spotty brood to an acceptable pattern. You can outcross about any inbreeding problem unless the outcross has the similar genetics. Two possible reasons for the F2 success with shotgun brood.. The SMR were inbred as Harbo said. or The bees in the hive which carried the *trait* of munching on varroa infested brood were becoming less and less. My guess is number 1 My queen breeder friends guess is no.2. >Again, not accepting or rejecting the assertion, I'm wondering if perhaps Dr. Harbo simply took the work too far and might have been better off stopping at the stage where it is asserted we must now backpedal. I believe the above is a fair assessment of the problem *if* due to inbreeding. I bought lottery tickets for the 340 million drawing. If I had won bee research would have been taken from the model T stage to the sports car stage! We can all dream can't we! Dreams are what sells lottery tickets! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:21:05 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Maurice Organization: prive Subject: Re: Allen Dick's Diary & Other's Too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Beekeepers from this List and others from all over the Wold, In a Msg from 24 10 2005 today) I read.... > I tried to capture Andy's site, several times, but it was too dynamic to > record. A large amount of the content was in links to other sites which > had > disappeared over time. Gene Brandi also looked for Andy's computer, but > could not find it when we thought of it sometime after his death. Andy's > bulletin board has also gone to the Great Bit Bucket in the Sky (G-BBS). As You know (I hope...) I was and I'm) a great Fan of Andy. I never met "the old drone" but I have a lot of his of his Writings...Whit those I made a little Book, named "The (Andy) Nachbaur Papers" It's my 647th Beebook in different Languages( but I'm Dutch from Flanders). This Book has (or have...) 88 Pages text. Every Day I see this Book with on the first Page his smiling foto. Let me tell You that I'm happy, very happy with His Writings . Greetings From Flanders-Belgium. Maurice -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:42:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Research Bias (Leafcutters & Bees) In-Reply-To: <009001c5d7f7$54a28c40$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- allen dick wrote: > My guess was that the higher density of better > pollination may have been due > to the fact that honey bees were orienting to the > huts and using them for > reference, not necessarily to the activity of the > leaf-cutters! An interesting supplemental research would have been to put other 'dummy' landmarks including unpopulated huts and then see what the pollination range would have been. If there had been similar denser pollination plots around those other, nonpopulated, landmarks that would have been an eye opener. Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:59:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Definning the problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>Is ... cannibalism of parasitized brood exactly the same way as diploid brood? Does anyone know if Hyg and/or SMR behavior [always] involves damage to the mites in the cells? I was very excited by Dennis Murrell's observation of damaged mites on the bottom of his TBHs in the fall. I think we should strive to bring out this behavior in bees. Whether it's throught the natural nest structure or bee genetics or some other factor. Has anyone observed damaged mites with hygienic bees or are hygienic bees simply removing [a number of] immature mites along with the mite-injured pupae? I understand grooming by bees increases mite fall - is it accompanied by damage to mites? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:09:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Winter ventilation for nucs. [Was: Getting colonies up to weig ht. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>I don't provide an upper entrance, but I've been considering it...drilling a hole near the top of the box. Is it because you've seen condensation and would like to bring the moisture out? >>I winter my nucs on top of production colonies... Do you place 2 nucs, side by side, over a full size colony? (One could cover both nucs with a single [oversized] cover.) >>I do top insulate with foam...directly on the nuc's inner cover(which is a grain bag)... Do you use a grain bag to absorb moisture? Doesn't a grain bag sit directly on the top bars preventing bees from crossing over the frame tops? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:17:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Dr. Harbo's Comments on SMR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently, I wrote to Dr. Harbo, posing the questions that have arisen here, and also mentioning that I would like to be able to quote his reply. Here are his comments, followed by my note to him. I appreciate his taking time to respond, and hope this helps clarify a question that likely will not be answered definitively in the near future, but which provides fertile ground for further work. allen --- Dr. Harbo's reply --- Dear Allen, Bees with the SMR trait will remove cells of worker pupae (starting about when the eyes begin to turn pink and usually completed by the purple-eyed stage), but they do not remove the cells that have nonreproducing mites.We were fooled into thinking that all the mites had become nonreproductive because we only found nonreproducing mites. Marla Spivak noticed that the SMR bees were hygienic, and it seems that the entire mechanism of resistance of SMR bees is the disruption of reproductive mites via the removal of bee pupae by adult bees. Equally important is the fact that they do not disturb mites that produce no eggs. Bees with the SMR trait did remove freeze-killed brood very rapidly, but so also did many of the bees that did not express the SMR trait. At this time, my opinion is that the SMR trait and hygienic behavior are not identical, but they certainly have some commonality. I say this for three reasons: (1) people were not able to produce bees with high levels of varroa resistance by selecting only for the removal of freeze-killed brood, (2) I could not find a correlation between the SMR trait and the rate of removal of freeze-killed brood, and (3) Rothenbuhler's hygienic behavior was recessive. The SMR trait seems to be additive. I do not know who first coined the term "hygienic behavior" in bees, but I think that Rothenbuhler used this term to describe the behavior of adult bees that removed larvae that were infected with American foulbrood. Hygienic behavior was further separated by Rothenbuhler into a factor for uncapping the cells and a factor for removing the larvae. We are still interested in P-MIB (percent mites in brood). However, when we did single-drone inseminations to isolate this trait, it did not jump out at us as the SMR trait did. Also, we had the SMR trait in some of the bees as we were selecting for P-MIB because when we started this work, we did not see how the two traits could be related. Now, as we know more about the SMR trait, the disruption of mites could shift the proportion of mites from brood onto adult bees. Therefore, we are in the process of selecting the P-MIB trait from bees that do have the SMR trait. At this point we do not know if the two traits are independent. Best regards, John John Harbo Honey Bee Breeding Laboratory 1157 Ben Hur Rd. Baton Rouge, LA 70820 USA TEL 225 767-9288 FAX 225 766-9212 --- my question to Dr. Harbo --- Hi John, We're having a discussion, and some are claiming that SMR=HYG. I understand that there is a commonality, however, last I heard there is not an exactly identity. My understanding is that the two sets overlap, but are not coincident, unless the term HYG has been expanded, if it was ever clearly defined. (Who decides these things?) Although it has been known now for some time that the manner in which 'SMR' bees manage varroa is a form of hygienic behaviour, and not a chemical effect as expected, the last time I heard you speak your opinion was that the traits exhibited in the SMR tests are not identical to the traits previously demonstrated by Marla's bees -- or Steve Tabor's -- but went beyond them in some important respects, (and perhaps fell short in other regards?). Maybe you can correct me, but my understanding is that 'HYG' has been a term that is used to specifically describe the set of characteristics that Marlas's bees exhibit -- relating to discovery and elimination of dead pupae -- and that those bees have demonstrated only a very limited ability to manage varroa on live pupae. On the other hand, the bees you developed are adept at discovering reproducing mites on live pupae in capped cells and removing them -- in addition to having the HYG characteristics. (I'm not sure if they have full HYG properties. If so, then your stock should perhaps be called HYG+) Has the definition of HYG been extended to include this characteristic, or are the SMR bees (or whatever they are now called) now included in HYG. If so, then are the bees that do not have this trait still called HYG? The SMR bees you released have been incorporated into some commercial lines, and last I heard, were still offered by some breeders. Are they still available, and is there a name change in the works? FWIW, 'SMR' still works for me, since they still suppress mite reproduction, by interrupting it using brute force! What could be more disruptive to varroa and less prone to evasion? One other thing. Several years ago, Tom was listing P-MIB at the top of the heritability list and a top candidate for further work. Have recent discoveries changed this? Hope you can clarify this for us, and I'd like to be able to quote your reply. Thanks in advance, and best regards, allen dick -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:07:50 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: Testing finer sugars against Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hi Ron > > Can you share with this list, your results so far ? > Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY Hi all, Yes, I will come forward with more details and references, but right now I don't regard the present data clear and sufficient enough to present. The research that I read does at times mention the actual grain sizes of the used sugars, Kamran Fakhimzadeh did so for instance, but saidly enough the reports from beekeepers on their own tests seem to lack this information all the time. The only thing stated is the product name, but as indicated by me, the names don't mean a thing. A product called "powdered sugar " in the USA, England, Africa or wherever does not per definition stand for exactly the same quality, the grain sizes, sugar sources, additives and manufacturing methods can differ a lot. That is exactly the reason why I started this whole project, to get clearity on all the finer sugars that exist and ultimately the combined knowledge of the sugar specifications and the actual the effectivity found by the beekeepers and researchers using a particular sugar should reveal the sugar that is most ideal, while not harming the colony. Likewise, we should as we go along also get a better idea of which application method works best, while causing the least problems to our bees and larvae. Kamran Fakhimzadeh from Finland who has done some research on the application of sugar for testing and treament of Varroa offered to pay us a visit for a workshop on sugar dusting. This could take place any time in the nearby future finances allowing, I'll report on that as things develop. That should also reveal why he settled just for the one particular sugar quality in his tests. Ron van Mierlo 73's PE2RVM / SM6WHN -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:27:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > FWIW today's solar wax melters do not decontaminate/clean > beeswax of many of todays residues due to lack of > pentration of sunlight needed to photodegregate, with a > prime example being fluvalinate. Dee I have been unable to find the word 'photodegregate' in any dictionary. Did you make it up and, if so, what do you intend it to mean? Could you also provide references of any studies to back up your assertion that solar melters are ineffective against certain contaminents due to 'lack of penetration of sunlight'? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:42:01 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Definning the problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It's interesting to me to see the assertion that it takes an F2 hybrid > to get from the spotty brood to an acceptable pattern. I have been told that you should get away from the spotty brood in the F1. As I am told, line breeding (inbreeding if you are not a queen breeder) is such that you keep putting back the line to itself but when you outcross it (F1) then you get back the hybrid vigour. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:40:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" >> Jims answer was: "Superior Marketing Rationale"! Oh, now that's just freakin' great - I even get dragged into arguments^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h discussions I did not even know were in progress! Allen evinced some very clear thinking, in pointing out: > the mention of SMR in the piece in question does not > seem to relate to actual SMR or Harbo's work, but rather > [to] the posers who use currently exciting names, acronyms > and hype for marketing stock... Exactly. Danke, Allen. I was critiquing nothing other (and nothing more) than the marketing of queens and packages by vendors who have yet to have their products subjected to any sort of "crash test rating". I do NOT want to be MISrepresented as presuming to speak for Harbo. He is happy to directly reply to inquires from anyone who cares to ask him questions, and he makes presentations at all the usual meetings, so there is no need for me (or anyone else) to attempt to summarize his work or paraphrase his views. My personal view is that this photo, taken by Zack: http://photo.bees.net/gallery/varroa/mite_poop and the associated text is worth thinking about very very slowly in regard to SMR itself. Assuming that you reject "action at a distance" in the macroscopic universe of biological activity, it may be a big clue as to the extent of the mechanisms in play. jim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:50:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Creaming honey by freezing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gilles Maguet asked: > When the honey is thawed and at room > temperature again, it becomes soft and very easy to spread just like or > better than spun or creamed honey from a honey packer. Can anyone > explain what is happening? I think so. Set honey consists of a lattice structure of glucose crystals. Within this rigid structure the fructose remains in solution. When you 'cream' honey the lattice structure is broken and does not re-form, giving a soft speadable honey. Presumably, freezing causes the fructose solution to expand and break the glucose lattice. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:08:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Winter ventilation for nucs. [Was: Getting colonies up to weig ht. In-Reply-To: <20051024.141057.19730.48060@webmail59.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-72A258FE > because you've seen condensation? Yes, but it doesn't seem to matter much. Mostly matters to the weak ones, and they get dysentery sometimes. But, maybe they had other problems anyway, and that's why they were weak. I'll probably create a few with upper entrances for this winter, and see the difference. > side by side, over a full size colony? Yes, but they are in one box with a solid divider, or a movable division board feeder. So, there is no need for any oversized outer cover. >Do you use a grain bag to absorb moisture? Doesn't absorb much moisture, as it is a plastic grain bag and not burlap. When you start the nucs, the grain bag in on top of the frames. The bees push it up a bit, and make little burr comb channels. Some cross over the frames through the channels. Great place for SHBs to hide! Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:09:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: October Cover Photo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 22 Oct 2005, Zach Huang wrote: "American Bee Journal November issue has a cover photo also of an image from www.beetography.com" Also under "News Notes" of the same issue, on page 860 there is a brief but timely article about Zach’s day job, "MSU RESEARCHERS BATTLE NO. 1 BEE KILLER" describing some of the current research that the team of Drs. Huang and Dong are accomplishing with sodium channel genes and the Varroa's resistance to tau-fluvalinate. Dr. Huang was in the news a few months ago when he and some of his international colleagues received credit for smelling out some of the queen’s (not Elizabeth) pheromones. Cheers! Chuck Norton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:25:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <005b01c5d8e1$bb4ffd70$4e702a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have been unable to find the word 'photodegregate' in any dictionary. Did you make it up and, if so, what do you intend it to mean? Reply: Photodegradation of fluvalinate, like with other pesticides is not new, it is light breaking down, therefore decomposition of the product, but unfortunately light can only penetrate so deep. In natural sunlight, the half-life of fluvalinate is typically 1 day (or less). But we are talking thin films here! Beeswax in a solar wax melter most often is too thick in wax to have any real breakdown of toxic effects.Inside a beehive it is worse and residues can last for years. This is bad because fluvalinate is a class 2 synthethic phrethroid and as temperature gets colder it gets stronger in it's killing action, and by the time the temperature has dropped to 12C (in the teens for "F") fluvalinate makes bees not cluster, and feeding is reduded significanty.This can be hard on beekeeping because of synergistic activity with other chemicals, so that small clusters coming out of winter that hit a cold spell can crash with inclement fluxional changes in weather, and this has been written about. Peter continues: Could you also provide references of any studies to back up your assertion that solar melters are ineffective against certain contaminents due to 'lack of penetration ofsunlight'? Reply: I know of no real studies done, but I did intensively talk with both families (Root and Dadant) about decontaminating procedures back in the late 1980s, and also just prior to writing the "Way Back to Biological Beekeeping" in the late 1990s, that is posted for free download at beesource.com where you can download chapters on decontaminating beeswax and also pull up archives on coumaphos and fluvalinate. For the inverse toxicity concerning fluvalinate see the Chaney thesis in the listing of supporting documentation. For pulling the reading up go to this site and read thru index of material presented: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/ But as to why I think solar wax melters are ineffective, this POV was rationalized in sifting thru data written in the publication: Photodegradation of fluvalinate, by Gary B. Quistad, Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry 1984 32 (5) Sep-Oct starting pg: 1134 in the US Depart of AGrtic National Agric Library, in Beltsville, Maryland to which you are free to go and get a copy. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:39:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Definning the problem In-Reply-To: <20051024.135936.19730.47962@webmail59.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar writes: Has anyone observed damaged mites with hygienic bees or are hygienic bees simply removing [a number of] immature mites along with the mite-injured pupae? I understand grooming by bees increases mite fall - is it accompanied by damage to mites? Reply: This division of labor for increased hygenic behaviour was talked about in detail on page 412 of the American Bee Journal June 1997 issue, beginning with paragraph headed: Concerning chewing out of varroa, in the short write up titled: More on Small Cell Foundation for Mite Control. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:23:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Bad advice? In-Reply-To: <00a601c5d8b4$2d640650$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen writes: Thus I wait with considerable interest to see how much honey Lusbys eventually extract from their almost 1,000 hives. Reply: Actually 900 hives and yes even with this year not getting good rains until the end of July we managed to get some barrels of honey so far, though we were moving our headquarters from 8 February until the 20th of Sept from Tucson to Moyza, Arizona an hour and a half drive away, and left the bees unworked most of the time, and threw half of the pollen trapped in the drawers of the traps, into the bushes due to moth in the drawers. But last I looked fast on a drive thru our numbers seemed to be holding though others in the area are desperate for hives and out splitting now, and come 1 Nov not having seen then since the first part of August I guess we shall see if we have something to extract for fall and bees left alive, while we bed our bees down now for winter. Sort of like a year shot in half, but we are moved and with uppacking still to do now, will try to get ready for another year as we need reconditioned supers now to keep going forward. But so far in spite of all with the move, I think we have gotten more honey then anyone else in our area so far, so shall be interesting to see where we end up in production/bees, knowing we could have done better, but didn't even get the new honeyhouse set back up and operating until 5 June which is late for us in our area, as most start extracting sometime end April/early May. Tucson just became to hard to work out of for commercial beekeeping, as to reach the nearest apiary became a 1 1/2 hr drive (some two hours) due to the rapid growth of the city now expanding out. So we moved back to the bees. Because of the long drive we could hardly breed bees anymore/nor graft. Now we are back in the hills,and as soon as I/we can get set up.......we will start rolling again like back in the late 1980s/early 1990s and then some, as we have now added a guest facility, and will be putting in a classroom area, restarting up our workshops, and doing hands-on, one on one field training, for showing clean sustainable bio-ecological beekeeping with small cell for those interested to see the field side. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:02:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Definning the problem (was Re: [BEE-L] Harbo Says: "SMR ,,,) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/10/05 16:51:51 GMT Daylight Time, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: <> I'm certainly seeing cannibalism of brood (these aren't a US strain), but it's a different pattern to that of diploid drones. When brood is capped, I see an excellent pattern. Later, when the eyes begin to go purple, brood is uncapped, and, eventually, eaten. If you looked at a frame after this point, it would look the same as 'normal' pepperpot brood. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:47:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: October Cover Photo In-Reply-To: <200510250109.j9P16Dow013054@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-373F4C3A > Dr. Huang and some of his international colleagues received >credit for smelling out some of the queen's pheromones. Didn't he discover a pheromone in empty honey comb, that caused the bees to store honey in them? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:31:04 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Photodegrade MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Many agricultural pesticides are intended for use only outdoors, as they break down or "photodegrade" with exposure to sunlight. Some time ago I remember reading about a scam where people were paying others to take and pass a state pesticide exam, then setting themselves up as exterminators. A few of them were found to have used agricultural pesticides indoors, which lead to some health hazards because the pesticides were not breaking down as intended, and lingering effects were a major concern. I recall that at least one home had to be demolished. I believe the matter came to light when a woman whose home had been so treated noticed one evening that as a moth, attracted by the light in her home, flew in through an open door, it almost immediately dropped to the floor because of the presence of the pesticide used. C. Crowell Hightstown, NJ (no the incident didn't occur in NJ) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:46:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Photodegradation of Fluvalinate in Melters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In natural sunlight, the half-life of fluvalinate is typically 1 day (or > less). But we are talking thin films here! Beeswax in a solar wax melter > most often is too thick in wax to have any real breakdown of toxic > effects. Moreover, most solar melters employ ordinary window glass, which does not transmit all the wavelenghts of sunlight, especially much of the UV spectrum, which I suspect may be the active portion for the matter under discussion here. See http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/cbd/cbd060_e.html allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 08:14:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Allen Dick's Diary & Other's Too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How do you go about downloading a site? (with apologies for being O/T ) Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:07:38 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Winter ventilation for nucs. [Was: Getting colonies up to weig ht. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike, >>a plastic grain bag and not burlap. Why not use an inner cover made of solid material like masonite? I kind of like the grain bag approach for a nuc as there would be less of a chance to crush bees - it should make it a bit easier for them to get out of the way before the telescoping cover goes on. >>...cross over the frames through the channels. Great place for SHBs to hide! No doubt. Do you find SHBs in Vermont? I've only heard of SHBs as far north as the Carolinas. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:11:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <20051025042539.90608.qmail@web51612.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Photodegradation of fluvalinate, like with other pesticides > is not new, it is light breaking down, therefore > decomposition of the product, but unfortunately light can > only penetrate so deep. In natural sunlight, the half-life > of fluvalinate is typically 1 day (or less). A minor correction - Fluvalinate and other pesticides have half life determined in a variety of environmental situations, but two are key, on the plant and in soil. In water the half life is less than a day in sunlight and about 3-6 without water in sunlight. In soil, it can be from 15 to 30 days. Temperature plays a great role in the half life of most pesticides, so wax in a solar melter with increased temperatures will result in a shorter half life, even if the sun does not hit it. Temperature and water content are the reason that the half life of a pesticide is often a range and not an absolute. Even in sunlight and in water, the half life is from less than a half to a full day. To assume that sunlight is needed to break down Fluvalinate is incorrect. It is only one of several factors. Depending on the length of time the wax is in the solar melter, it could be a good way to remove some of the Fluvalinate. If you use a solar melter or hot water bath the key is to keep it at a high temperature for several days. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:26:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Creaming honey by freezing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks much to Robert for explaining the mechanism involved. BUT CAUTION, to those attempting to repeat this: 1. If using glass containers, the honey will partly move away from the glass as it contracts, making the package appear unattractive. IMO, this is why creamed honey is most frequently sold in opaque containers in countries such as Canada and France, where a great deal of creamed honey is consumed. 2. A person near here, who makes several thousand pounds a year using this method, claims that only certain honey sources will produce an attractive and smooth tasting product. He keeps his honey sources confidential, but admits it comes from Canada! We also produce several thousand pounds a year, but use the Dyce method. FWIT, Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:15:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Allen Dick's Diary & Other's Too In-Reply-To: <200510240429.j9O4TspZ006358@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Chuck Norton wrote: > It's been a while since Allen has put a new page in > his diary; > Such rich and valuable information should be > stored in an on-line accessible university library > or some other > universally accessible location. This is my humble > opinion, what’s your? I wholeheartedly agree. The anacdotal notes of actual experiences and observations definately should be kept in some kind of repository that is just as accessable is it presetnly is in its diary form. At some time in the future, reference to such observations might be critical in the substantiation of some info that we currently are unaware of as being necessary. Got any ideas as to how to archive your diaries for us Allen? Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:16:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Research cuts?? In-Reply-To: <435C79AC.4010506@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- John Edwards wrote: > I'm a little out of touch - has anybody heard if the > few remaining > USDA-ARS beelabs might be cut to help "pay the > bills"? > - John Edwards As far as I know, the bee lab in Baton Rouge has recieved its funding for the coming year. Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:28:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Harbo Says: "SMR ,,, Simply Exceptional Housekeepers" (long) In-Reply-To: <003e01c5d887$24f5cbc0$18bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: I always wanted a systemic solution for varroa but researchers are not looking so I guess will never come. Works with ticks on dogs & cats but complicated research has always been the reply from researchers. Drop the systemic in syrup and forget about varroa . one bite and varroa is history! I like the idea too Bob. The problem I see is that the dog/cat/flea/tick problem is between mammals and insects while the honey bee/mite problem is between insects. That makes it so much harder to identify a species specific systemic miticide. What affects the mite usually also affect the bee. Oh for a systemic sollustion. :) Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:43:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote about fluvalinate degradation: > In water the half life is less than a day in > sunlight I would have expected the water to absorb more sunlight than the glass of a solar extractor - making the solar extractor more efficient. Seems to me that we need some proper experimental data here, rather than just opinions and hearsay. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:02:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Creaming honey by freezing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: 2. A person near here, who makes several thousand pounds a year using this method, claims that only certain honey sources will produce an attractive and smooth tasting product. In the UK most honey sources will produce a good set honey. The only real problems occur with the very high fructose/low glucose honeys like Borage (which also has an unhelpfully high level of sucrose!). A good proportion of Oil Seed Rape makes life a lot easier. We also produce several thousand pounds a year, but use the Dyce method. I used to use the Dyce method but the resulting product was still prone to frosting if stored somewhere cold. A better method in my opinion is as follows: I usually add 6-8lb of seed (fine set honey) to around 150lbs of liquid honey at 75-80F. Stir for 15 mins, 4 times a day (mechanical stirrer on timer) until it is too thick to stir. It can then be left until needed or bottled immediately. Warm and stir until it is sufficiently fluid to bottle (varies from 95-104F depending on the honey), but be careful not to melt it! One other point: when bottling, drop the honey into the centre of the jar - do not run it down the side, as this will often cause a streak of frosting later (don't ask me why! - but I have tested it many times, marking the side of the jar where the honey was run down and it always frosts there). Since using this method I have had no frosting and I have samples that have been in the honey house for years that have still not frosted, despite great variations in temperature. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:12:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Creaming honey by freezing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...A person near here, who makes several thousand pounds a year using > this method, claims that only certain honey sources will produce an > attractive and smooth tasting product. Another tip that may or may not be useful is that creamed honey softens over time, and using seed several years old may give a better result. allen The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come. -- Peter Ustinov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:59:44 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: The most expensive honey in the world? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have just returned from Morocco where I bought 225g of honey, direct = from the beekeeper for approx =A35.30. The same honey in local shops = was =A38.48 or nearly =A317 per lb. The reason for the high price? It was from Argan trees and the yield is = only 3-4kg per hive each year. I had always thought that Manuka honey was the most expensive, but this = is in another league altogether! Anyone found honey at a higher price? Peter Edwards edwards.p@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk (Thinking that I would be deliriously happy to get a quarter of that = price - but not the crop!) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:31:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Research cuts?? In-Reply-To: <20051025141638.78775.qmail@web53414.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The bee lab in Baton Rouge has not received funding yet due to the budget not final yet out of congress. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 Mike Stoops wrote: >--- John Edwards wrote: > > > >>I'm a little out of touch - has anybody heard if the >>few remaining >>USDA-ARS beelabs might be cut to help "pay the >>bills"? >> - John Edwards >> >> > > >As far as I know, the bee lab in Baton Rouge has >recieved its funding for the coming year. > >Mike in Alabama > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. >http://farechase.yahoo.com > >-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:42:29 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter, >>honey... was from Argan trees and the yield is only 3-4kg per hive... Does Argan honey have any special nutritional or medicinal properties? Is the taste unique? I have never heard of Argan trees. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:01:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Research cuts?? In-Reply-To: <435E5DF8.7080503@cox-internet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Charles Harper wrote: > The bee lab in Baton Rouge has not received funding > yet due to the budget not final yet out of congress. You're right Charlie. Just conversed with one of the researchers there and he expressed the opinion that no changes are expected in the funding this year. Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:03:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Definning the problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/10/05 23:19:14 GMT Daylight Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> Some bees do show mite-damaging behaviour I have seen it, but not so far in my current strain. I'd be glad to see it appear, as it would be a useful addition to their armoury. The things to look for are mites with legs bitten off, and ones with a rather characteristic dent in the carapace from bee bites. I've seen images of these on the Net, so they're out there somewhere. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:10:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Dr. Harbo's Comments on SMR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/10/05 23:27:56 GMT Daylight Time, allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM writes: <> Eureka! That describes what my bees are doing; what I haven't established is why. Hopefully, they'll be going for cells with reproducing mites inside, but what do I need to look for exactly? The few times I've extracted the pupa any mites have been long gone. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:17:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 24/10/05 23:35:20 GMT Daylight Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: <> You might find 'photodegrade', meaning the degradation of a chemical substance by the action of light. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:21:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <435E2EFA.6090902@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill: Look I appreciate your POV but the paper quoted is quite intensive for reading and goes into great detail on the photodegradation process on all aspects of fluvalinate and I talked it over in great detail with Jerry Hayes when he was with Dadant on getting the fluvalinate out of beeswax, even to the usage of special lights when I wrote the actual chapters in "The Way Back to Biological Beekeeping" (free book, posted at beesource.com). It is a paper used by the chemical companies producing fluvalinate, and is restricted reading for just outright usage/field without permission. The penetration of sunlight with the wax is not very deep like only about 1/8 inch would be a lot and 1/16 would probably be closer to the actual breaking down, and this is just not done in solar wax melters. You'd get better breakdown of the fluvalinate, throwing the waxed frames out in sunlight for the cell walls to face the sun themselves when empty, then in a solar wax melter.But remember to flip them over to photodegradate the other side with the sun the following day or so. Perhaps you should try to request a copy of the paper if you can and read it. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona Http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:34:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: The most expensive honey in the world? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For more than you wanted to know: http://ag.arizona.edu/OALS/ALN/aln48/moussouris&pierce.html#araar Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:44:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Photodegrade In-Reply-To: <102520051131.8665.435E1777000C3215000021D9216028106099019D0C9C079B9D9A0C@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit C. Crowell Not that I would now throw salt into a wound here in conversation: But, how many beekeepers are also aware that fluvalinate besides being used as a selective contact insecticide is also used as a stomach-poison? Which then makes one think what does it do to the bees internal gut for digestion etc with beneficial bacteria? Also, to consider I remember back in the late 1980s when lobbying against it's usage in beehives for the State of Arizona beekeepers, it was brought out by me to Washington, that in Europe the ratio for mixing fluvalinate to water for use was roughtly 1 part fluvalinate to 100 parts water, while in our country APHIS believed the ratio should be 1 part fluvalinate to 4 parts water (ref APHIS then application for section 18). It was no wonder that in many articles written by Europeans you read then that the level of fluvalinate being used in the USA was much higher then needed for actual control, and yet in the field, resistance to treatments back then in around 1989 was already starting to show, and more serious treatments were already being looked at. Then also look at were we have progressed to now.Sad just so sad. So does this mean then that we already got good moth control in hives to get back to your story for parallel? Respectfuly submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:08:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Winter ventilation for nucs. [Was: Getting colonies up to weight. In-Reply-To: <20051025.060754.21659.864@webmail48.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:07 PM 10/25/05 GMT, you wrote: >No doubt. Do you find SHBs in Vermont? I've only heard of SHBs as far north as the Carolinas. I've got `em here in Maine. We have to import them. Hopefully they're just a summer complaint, like tourists. George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:46:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: October Cover Photo Chuck, No, the pheromone was from older workers to signal younger bees to stay as nurses. The "inhibitor" proposed many years ago (1992) by Robinson and myself only became chemically identified recently and published Dec of 2004. This is the 4th primer (slow working, long term) pheromone identified in the whole animal kingdom. Contrast this with hundreds (perhaps more than a thousand now) of releaser (fast acting) pheromones (sex pheromones, alarm pheromones etc). Mike, No the chemicals from empty combs that stimulates hoarding behavior were never chemically identified. I believe Tom Rinderer (research leader at Baton Rouge bee lab) did some work in the 70s. I did not work in this area at all. To clarify things a bit and to show how many pheromones are there in honey bees, and their relevance to beekeeping (if any), please download the 2nd talk (uploaded today!) on my site: hhttp://cyberbee.net/huangtalk/ Cheers, Zach http://www.bees.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:36:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: Request for Status Report on Zach's "Spartan Mitezapper" Comments: To: Carl David Lehr Dave, sorry I only saw your post today! and by chance...I do not read all the posts of bee-l since there are so many... Status: I have bene refining the product and doing field tests in beekeeper's colonies... Unfortunately in Michigan here we donot have a lot of mites until August/Sept when drone rearing can be difficult. I think we might try one more year next year and perhaps inoculate some mites to all colonies and then zap some and leave others as control from May to July, then check total mite levels in August/Sept. right now the zapper has a temperature sensor on the comb to shut down the power when it gets about 58C. the heating is done by a printed circuit board which is very neat but too expensive ($50 each). Right now someone is interested after reading the American Bee Journal article. Hopefully we can got it to the market in a year! I know this thing will work much better than screen bottom board. it will work just as well as the drone trapping method using a freezer except it is easier and simpler (no moving of the frames, no freezer required). Actually brood does not really become charred even at 60 C. they sort of cook but most heat then is trasferred in melting the wax, by the time it is too hot (say 80 C, which is unlikely), the brood will be already gone with no wax support. with the current design if you shut down the power after 5-7 min, it should not get that hot. Best, Zachary -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:48:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <20051025172100.62547.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Bill: > Look I appreciate your POV http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/fluvalin.htm All I did was google fluvalvinate and half life and got lots of hits all dealing with the breakdown of fluvalvinate. The link above is typical. As an organic gardener, I taught gardeners and beekeepers about pesticides and the best way to use them, if they were going to use them, so they would be the least toxic to the environment, including bees. (Yes, organic gardeners use toxic pesticides but since they come from "nature" they are fine.) It looks like what you are describing is the removal of fluvalvinate from wax at a place like Dadant, where you have an entirely different problem. They are looking at ways to process already "processed" wax and eliminate contaminants. They are also looking to do it as quickly and cheaply as possible, hence the use of sunlight and water to get the half life down to hours, not days. It is not the only way to reduce contamination, just the fastest. I agree with Peter's comment about water being present in a solar melter so there would be additional pressures for faster decomposition (an assumption based on facts). So just leave it in the melter for a few days when you have heat, water and sunlight, all aiding in the decomposition. Finally, the commercial wax processors have a problem with pesticides, not that the wax is unusable, but that it has any contaminant. With tests able to measure in parts per billion, the adverse publicity and potential for lawsuits makes it imperative for them to get the amounts down below the thresholds of detection. The reason I say, thresholds of detection, is that half life is just that, half is still there after decomposition, so there might be some still there after all the treatments, it is just not detectable so effectively gone. It appears to me that the whole argument here is on how fast you want to get the job done. Personally, if I was going to do it quickly I would boil the wax in water under intense sunlight or artificial sunlight source for about three days. Then you have heat, sunlight, water and the maximum amount of wax in contact with all three. You will have gone through about 6 or more half life cycles and reduces the contaminants (which are already low) to a bit more than 1% of what you started with. In practice, I boil it and stare into the pot. Intimidation also works. Or it could be my bright personality. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:55:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Winter ventilation for nucs. [Was: Getting colonies up to weight. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20051025140803.008d1be0@pop.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Fergusson wrote: > I've got `em here in Maine. We have to import them. Hopefully they're just > a summer complaint, like tourists. Nope. They are here to stay. When I visited other apiaries in Maine they were there and those colonies overwintered here. So when I got home I looked a little more closely at my bottom boards and spotted one. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:37:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > All I did was google fluvalvinate and half life and got lots of hits > all dealing with the breakdown of fluvalvinate. Into what? Something pleasant and healthy, or another noxious chemical with a half-life of a century or so? Does anyone know? > I agree with Peter's comment about water being present in a solar > melter so there would be additional pressures for faster > decomposition (an assumption based on facts). Does it matter that the fluvalinate the beekeepers are supposed to be using is tau-fluvalinate which, has an affinity -- I understand -- for grease, not water? There is much I do not know about these things. allen Lawyers spend a great deal of their time shoveling smoke. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:24:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar asked: > Does Argan honey have any special nutritional or medicinal properties? Is > the taste unique? > I have never heard of Argan trees. I had not heard of them either! They are unique to the Atlantic coast of Southern Morocco - very arid. Look a bit like olive, but are very thorny. The nuts from them are used to produce an oil which is, allegedly, the highest known for polyunsaturates - also expensive, about £10 for 375ml from the women's co-operatives - much dearer in the shops (UK £17.50 for 250ml). The honey is dark, very viscous (I have not checked the moisture level yet) with a rich flavour. I do not know whether it has any special properties - I just bought some because I like to support beekeepers that I meet in areas where income is very low. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:12:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Propolis and AFB In-Reply-To: <435E8BFA.50408@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill writes: As an organic gardener, I taught gardeners and beekeepers about pesticides and the best way to use them, if they were going to use them, so they would be the least toxic to the environment, including bees.(Yes, organic gardeners use toxic pesticides but since they come from "nature" they are fine.) Reply: Since all pesticides come are in some way from the environment I guess that says alot for the continuing problem and how organics has been watered down with legislation changes over the years since it's beginning clean, to now IPM methods incorporated within. Guess we'll end up seeing which way survives long-term, as I myself believe in NO treatments at all, nor artificial feeds, though I cannot stop all the pollution still around us in the field. But at least I/we don't throw stuff into our hives and then say the treatment is natural, for the bees don't do it, only man overthinking again! Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrganicBeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:43:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: For more than you wanted to know: http://ag.arizona.edu/OALS/ALN/aln48/moussouris&pierce.html#araar Yes, quite a good summary of the situation, although I would not describe the area as forest. The trees (more like hawthorn bushes in the UK) are well spaced with just a little scrub growth here and there, although in some places they do grow barley between the trees when there is some rain (they had a few hours when we were there last week - the first rain since March. Many of the trees are in a poor condition as goats climb into them, despite the thorns, to eat the nuts and new shoots. Nomads also bring camels that graze on the trees. The description of 'Amlu' does not fit in with my experience. We were told that the residue from pressing the oil is fed to animals (probably goats) - the nuts, even when roasted, are incredibly bitter. 'Amlou' is made from Argan oil, honey and ground almonds and is eaten by dipping bread into it; delicious, but also very expensive. They certainly know how to create added value from the resources available! Something that we could work on. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:48:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gilles Maguet Subject: expensive honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've seen websites featuring gift packs containing 9, one ounce test-tubes filled with a variety of honey flavours selling for $78 US funds plus shipping. A beekeeper in my area (NorthWest, Manitoba) sells 30 lb pails of honey to a few enterprising individuals from Colorado and California for $60 ( US funds) each. They in turn mark it up to as much as $150 each. It doesn't sell as fast at that price but eventually it does move. He has an order for about 5000lbs this year. Makes a good tax free holiday to California. If premium white honey in its pure form ( unblended ) can fetch these prices, I don't quite understand why packers are waging price wars with huge volume sales of cheap and poor tasting honey. Give the consumers something good to taste and sales should increase. Give them something different as well. For example, I've never seen orange blossom honey for sale in Manitoba. It should be on these shelves priced at a premium as with other unique honey flavours of North America. This generic honey blend junk on the shelf should be so easy to compete with when you put something good beside it. My two cents. Gilles Maguet Soon to be egg producer -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:07:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Winter ventilation for nucs. [Was: Getting colonies up to weig ht. In-Reply-To: <20051025.060754.21659.864@webmail48.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-27EB755 > >Why not use an inner cover made of solid material I do use some nuc boxes with half width inner covers...made like a full sized inner. I place the rim side down for winter, so the bees can cross over the top bars if they want. Don't see any difference between the two styles, as far as wintering goes. Do you find SHBs in Vermont? You bet. They overwinter, too. They were brought in with nucs from South Carolina, bought by a neighbor. Some mating nucs in one of my yards have many on the top bars every time I open them. Had some honey slimed in my hot room, and burned a pallet of brood combs because they had ruined them. I was told they wouldn't overwinter. I saw a couple early this spring, and their population grew as the weather warmed. I guess they're here to stay. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:20:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: expensive honey In-Reply-To: <435EE06F.5040307@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting, expensive honey! National Honey Board web site http://www.nhb.org/indicates figures as follows: Average Retail Price per Pound = $3.88/lb Average Wholesale Case Price Per Pound = $2.59 with average price for Chinese honey (so far in 2005) at $0.39 cts. Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:22:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: expensive honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gilles Maguet wrote: > I've seen websites featuring gift packs containing 9, one ounce > test-tubes filled with a variety of honey flavours selling for $78 US > funds plus shipping. 'Gift packs' probably do offer the most expensive honey (that one works out at £77.81 per lb), simply because of the small amount of honey that they contain - they are really selling packaging rather than honey. When I asked, I was really thinking about standard sizes like 1lb or 1/2lb. > A beekeeper in my area (NorthWest, Manitoba) sells 30 lb pails of honey > to a few enterprising individuals from Colorado and California for $60 ( > US funds) each. That is only £1.12 per lb. Would expect around £1.40 to £1.50 in the UK. > They in turn mark it up to as much as $150 each. £2.81 per lb. Most consumers here would expect it to be in jars for that price, but I think that the price would be less of a barrier than the 30lb pack size. I have tried selling bulk packs to my customers, but not many seem to want 30lb buckets - even if it saves them quite a considerable amount of money. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:03:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? In-Reply-To: <008301c5d9b5$794a7d40$397a2a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed I have a lot of contacts in the trade, and, strictly comparing like with like, ie, not retail or even gift packed items against bulk product, the most expensive honey I know of is Yemeni High mountain Coffee Honey. Yields are tiny and irregular, and the entire surplus is snapped up into Saudi Arabia. Last figure I heard was GBP20....or about USD36.........per pound as most here are US readers......in bulk. Low ground product apparently fetches considerably less. I spoke to one Saudi buyer about this matter a long time ago, and they do seem to place great value on mountain origins. I do not know the current rates, and this figure is about 6 years old. Someone mentioned Manuka earlier in the thread. I have a close friend who trades this honey quite a lot, and the prices are a very moveable feast. Depends on activity level and if it has organic status or not. I believe the premium for organic status (with Manuka, not in most cases) has dropped off the map in the last year or more, but activity levels are king. Highest activity Manuka honey still trades in bulk at very high rates, I believe in the region of GBP 14K USD 25K per tonne in the European market. According to my trader friend the premium for organic has largely vanished in the last couple of years, and he no longer has to pay significantly extra (sometimes no premium at all) for that. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:09:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: SHB in New England (Was: Winter ventilation for nucs.) In-Reply-To: <435E8DC5.7020604@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:55 PM 10/25/05 -0400, Bill Truesdell wrote: >Nope. They are here to stay. When I visited other apiaries in Maine they >were there and those colonies overwintered here. Well, that is the single most depressing thing I've heard in days. I mostly see them under my screened bottom board, or walking around on top of the inner cover. So far they haven't really been a problem though I did lose a nuc to SHB this summer due to dwindling bee numbers- they couldn't keep them under control. My SHB arrived in nucs from down south and in some hives that I picked up from a migratory beekeeper. I take it Bill that you did not directly import your SHB? George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:46:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: SHB in New England (Was: Winter ventilation for nucs.) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20051026070945.00880140@pop.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Fergusson wrote: > I take it Bill that you did not directly import your SHB? No and not sure where they came from. My guess is that it would not take much time for the beetle to make its way from any of the blueberry fields in Maine (they are everywhere) or from southern packages. It was just a matter of time. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:05:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: colour discriminqation in bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some 40 years back, when von Frisch was a popular read for young = scientists, and bee communication through dancing was in everyone's = conversations, a number of studies were done on colour discrimination in = bees. Does anyone still have access to that literature? Does anyone = remember which wavelengths are easiest for bees to discriminate. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:22:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Definning the problem In-Reply-To: <12a.68b373dc.308fbf71@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert Brenchley wrote: > In a message dated 24/10/05 23:19:14 GMT Daylight > Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: > > < bees or are hygienic bees > simply removing [a number of] immature mites along > with the mite-injured pupae? >> > > > The things to look for are mites with legs bitten > off, and ones with a rather characteristic dent in > the carapace from bee bites. Oh boy! More things to look for when doing hive management. :) Not only that, but it's going to be a strain on my mechanically assisted eye-sight. Guess with the advent of fall I'll have time to do that sort of thing now though. Would be a good adjunct to the reports that I need to compile for the trial I'm participating in. Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:55:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: SHB in New England MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We are immediately adjacent to New England, with both Vermont and Mass. about 40 miles away. I have seen SHB twice. Three years ago I had a serious infestation in one yard where I was trapping pollen. One day I was collecting pollen and found two drawers where there were so many larvae that the pollen moved with thei= r activity! Hundreds in each drawer, and not in adjacent hives. I could not find adults in the hives or the drawers. For what seemed like weeks I dumped the larvae and pollen into seperate bags and burned them. Eventually, there was no more larvae and I haven't seen any since in that yard. This year I saw one hive with the adults. And the adults were there every time I opened the hive, until I took off the supers (when I didn't see any)= . No problems or evidence in the honey house. I have just one yard on sandy soil, and have never seen SHB in that yard (but the soil is full of termites and any board left on the ground will be fully infested in about 3 weeks). My hope is that the combination of 'typical' rocky hard soil and cold winters are holding back the infestation= s that come from the migratory crowd plus packages. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:30:05 -0500 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "scot.mcpherson" Organization: Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: colour discriminqation in bees? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't recall specific literature, but I seem to remember that UV was the most distinguishing color, and the bees being red-blind. Flowers containing a UV component were visited more frequently I think than those without. Of course everything being equalized. Scot Mc Pherson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:18:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: colour discriminqation in bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...a number of studies were done on colour discrimination > in bees. Does anyone still have access to that literature? I did not read through every page, but here is a search with many good-looking hits: http://tinyurl.com/8f9u3 allen I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. -- Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:24:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Re: colour discriminqation in bees? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Oct 26, 2005, at 6:05 AM, joe bossom wrote: > Some 40 years back, when von Frisch was a popular read for young > scientists, and bee communication through dancing was in everyone's > conversations, a number of studies were done on colour discrimination > in bees. Does anyone still have access to that literature? Does > anyone remember which wavelengths are easiest for bees to > discriminate. Check out: http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/C/ CompoundEye.html That URL provides a concise statement of the compound eye in arthropods, with special emphasis on the honey bee — including comparative illustrations. Adrian > Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm "For what a man more likes to be true, he more readily believes." Francis Bacon (1561-1626) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:34:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: SHB in New England (Was: Winter ventilation for nucs.) In-Reply-To: <435F7AB3.8020901@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > My guess is that it would not take > much time for the beetle to make its way from any of > the blueberry fields in Maine Bill, Will be planting blueberry bushes this coming year around the house. Have you noticed bees playing a really important part in the pollination of the blueberries? Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:46:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: SHB control In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20051026070945.00880140@pop.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here I go and probably innitiate a considerable uproar on the discussion list. Control of the small hive beetle. Had one of my students from last years class grin and tell me that she and her husband found complete control of hive beetles in their hives. From another regional beekeeper they found a way to kill the beetles in their hives. It is NOT a method that I have heard of before and I'm pretty sure is not one advocated by the FDA or the beekeeping community at large. It involved the introduction of roach gel in a restrive container such that the bees could not gain access to it but the hive beetles could. The lady said that the hive that had numerous hive beetles showed no sign of having the beetles about a week after introducing this method of control into the hive. Supposedly the method of introduction precludes the contamination of the hive and the combs although I'm sure there have been no clinical trials to determine that fact. For what it is worth. Mike in southern Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:00:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Re: colour discrimination in bees? In-Reply-To: <2c9dac0ca1e52731a767f6f0e343356f@lifesci.ucsb.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> My last posting of a URL about color vision drew a blank when I tried it again. You can type "honey bee color vision" into Google and open "The Compound Eye" to get the information. Adrian >> Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) > 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu > Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm > > "For what a man more likes to be true, he more readily believes." > Francis Bacon (1561-1626) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:41:04 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: SHB in New England (Was: Winter ventilation for nucs.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Have you noticed bees playing a really important part in the pollination of the blueberries? I've had a couple of blueberry bushes in the backyard some 30 feet from the hives. Never saw a single honeybee on the flowers. Bumble bees do most of the pollinating. I'd say the fruit set is decent. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:49:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Blueberry Pollination (Was: SHB in New England (Was: Winter ventilation for nucs.)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Those who are talking of blueberry bushes in their back yards are most likely talking highbush blueberries. The blueberries in Maine are lowbush blueberries. They both produce blue berries, but the lowbush variety producer smaller and more flavorful berries than do the highbush varieties. Lowbush plants grow about 6 inches. Highbush varieties grow 6-15 feet. Very different plants! Aaron Morris - Thinking the blue berries in Maine stay mainly in the barrens! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:52:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: SHB control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Mike, FWIW the method that you have just described is an illegal application of a pesticide and is IMHO inconsistent with the labeling as approved by the FDA and the state in which you reside. Illegal use of a pesticide is a crime on both federal and state levels. This is no different than using a witches brew such as I have described in the archives; the pesticide may very well be approved for a particular application per the labeled instructions; however, a target not on the list is a no-no. and would require registration for that particular target; say, a small hive beetle. And, AFAIK additional paper work, testing and creation of Material Safety Data Sheets, MSDS, would be required at the federal level. I throw caution to the wind as it is noted in the November 2005 American Bee J, page 864, “EPA: ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE……” that a “civil penalty of $14,850” for sale and distribution was ordered against an individual who allegedly sold products illegally. Although, this is not the same as using a product inconsistent with its labeling it nevertheless goes to show that the government does not take the misuse of pesticides lightly. Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC 27320 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:22:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: colour discrimination in bees? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Adrian: The site you listed worked ok on my end. It did wrap, though, and needs to be copied and pasted into the browser. I found that the main site is a fine one to bookmark, too. Thanks. This will take those interested to the site’s beginning where lot’s of great biology topics can be accessed. http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages (Clicking on “V” brings up vision where “in Insects” can be clicked on to get the the compound eye, too.) Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:16:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: colour discriminqation in bees? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe > Does anyone remember which wavelengths are easiest for bees to > discriminate. There is a graph on... http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/exposure.html -- Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:32:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: SHB control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > FWIW the method that you have just described is an illegal application of > a pesticide and is IMHO inconsistent with the labeling as approved by the > FDA and the state in which you reside. Illegal use of a pesticide is a > crime on both federal and state levels. This is a good thng to point out. Nonetheless, we don't know if there is something promising here that might eventually be legal, or that it is not acceptable in some places where people read BEE-L. Researchers (and many read BEE-L but do not post) also may find this an interesting avenue, worth pursuing. > This is no different than using a witches brew such as I have described in > the archives; the pesticide may very well be approved for a particular > application per the labeled instructions; however, a target not on the > list is a no-no. Not knowing the details, I reserve judgement, but appreciate hearing the report and hope peoplle will continue to discuss non-permissible treatments where of interest, while adding the caveats that Chuck provided. I have no idea what 'roach gel' actually is, but some compounds, like borax, might be very safe to humans and achieve acceptance by authorities, in the way that oxalic has. allen People who work sitting down get paid more than people who work standing up. -- Ogden Nash -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:00:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: SHB control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chuck & All, Jeff Pettis of the Beltsville Bee Lab is aware of the method as he was shown the method by beekeepers at a Georgia bee meeting (around three years ago). Not sure what has happened since as the lab was going to do some testing. So far only silence from the lab. Because the product is registered as a pesticide then all that is needed to make legal would be to add bees to the first registration, to the label and directions for beekeeping use. Some testing would be needed for registration I would think. I don't believe the product was what we were looking for or we would have heard by now but only an opinion. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:07:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Blueberry Pollination (Was: SHB in New England (Was: Winter ventilation for nucs.)) In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE09210142E150@UAEXCH.univ.alban y.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:49 PM 10/26/05 -0400, you wrote: >Those who are talking of blueberry bushes in their back yards are most >likely talking highbush blueberries. The blueberries in Maine are >lowbush blueberries. They both produce blue berries, but the lowbush By and large you are correct, when people talk about Maine blueberries, they mean low bush but we also have wild high bush blueberries (in lesser numbers) growing in bogs and around lakes, they are on average 4-6' tall with somewhat larger berries than the low bush variety. Still, they're pretty tasty, comparable to low bush berries. It's the large cultivated ones that people have in their yards that taste kinda washed out in comparison- like the ones you buy in stores :) Years ago we used to be in the blueberry business and still have some acres of wild blueberries growing. Honey bees will pollinate them if they have to. Bumblebees are much happier to do so. To get honey bees to successfully pollinate blueberries, the growers typically put in 2-3 hives per acre. With that many bees and not much else to forage on, they do a passable job. George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:19:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: SHB in New England (Was: Winter ventilation for nucs.) In-Reply-To: <20051026153429.28213.qmail@web53403.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:34 AM 10/26/05 -0700, you wrote: > Will be planting blueberry bushes this coming year >around the house. Have you noticed bees playing a >really important part in the pollination of the >blueberries? Mike, I have a half dozen high bush blueberry bushes in my yard, and I have seen honey bees on them though as has been pointed out, bumble bees do most of the work. The flowers are both deep, and dangle such that honey bees have a bit of trouble with them. They're also bigger flowers than the wild variety which exacerbates the problem. George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:40:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gauthier Buddy Subject: Re: Bee Losses due to Hurricanes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Earlier I asked if anyone knew if my insurance policy would cover my losses in the hurricane. I have coverage on structures on my property. They regarded them as cages and said that they would pay for them. They would not pay for the bees themselves, but they asked for an estimate of how much honey I thought I loss. I estimated very conservatively as 200 lbs and they paid me for the honey. I don't have the estimate in front of me, but I figured they gave me $125 per hive(for the wood) and $60 for the honey per hive. Of course, I realize I just lost 4 hives, but this is significant for me. I guess in comparison to others in the area, this was minor. No one came out to look at the damage, so I figure they looked at the damage via satellite. It wasn't worth the gasoline to come out to my remote area.=20 Just wanted to share, Buddy Gauthier Thibodaux, LA 60 miles WSW of New Orleans Buddy wrote: My property is insured through AllState and I'm still waiting for the adjuster to visit. In the meantime, I took pictures of the hives as I found them. I did not take pictures of the inner parts of the hives. One hive was even stacked unevenly like a small child would stack blocks unevenly. I'm still not sure how the wind did that. None of them flipped or toppled. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:31:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: More "Honey" Fraud In-Reply-To: <8518F15BB956014C90B2E2CC0D4C4F9F013C2D08@w2k3telnet.root.local> Kim Flottum of Bee Culture magazine e-mailed me about yet another new product with "Honey" in large print on the label, but no honey in the actual product. This one is more interesting than many, as they call it "Cane Honey", and claim that the term "Cane Honey", or "honey from the reed" is a "Chinese name from antiquity". The swill being sold is nothing but liquid cane sugar concentrate. http://www.sukkaronline.com/home.html We've shoved the product up against the Wall O' Shame, of course: http://bee-quick.com/wall/sukkar.html And it clearly qualifies as one of the "worst of the worst": http://bee-quick.com/wall/worst.html In regard to the language claim, are there any eastern language scholars on the list who can confirm/deny the claim? I found a reference to a modern English translation of the (Greek) "Periplus Maris Erythraei" (a trade and shipping guide from the 1st century A.D.) that credits the phrase to India as a description of "Sacchari" (cane sugar) from India, but the Chinese character for sugar: http://www.formosa-translation.com/chinese/ss/s257.gif Looks nothing much like the characters for "flower" or "honey" ("flower" on left, "honey" on right, and as shown, the combination is read as "nectar"). http://www.formosa-translation.com/chinese/nn/nzz104.gif The reason why I am so interested in such a trivial detail is that any sort of inherent confusion in the Chinese language between "honey" and "sugar" might explain the distressing regularity with which honey from China is found to be adulterated. :) jim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:33:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: SHB control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have no idea what 'roach gel' actually is, but some compounds, like > borax, might be very safe to humans and achieve acceptance by > authorities, in the way that oxalic has. Here are some links to such products and their ingredients for those who are intersted: http://tinyurl.com/b8hol allen Tradition is what you resort to when you don't have the time or the money to do it right. -- Kurt Herbert Alder -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:38:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Drumming bees out.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've never tried it but heard that one can drum on a hive to make the bees move upwards. I came across a website that said bees, including the queen, can be drummed out of structures and trees using a hammer for about 8 - 10 minutes. Had anyone been successful in drumming bees out of walls or trees? Please advise how you did it. Thanks! Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:16:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: Drumming bees out.... In-Reply-To: <20051026.143831.1364.14575@webmail52.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Had anyone been successful in drumming bees out of walls or trees? Please advise how you did it. Waldemar We arrived at a call from someone who had bees in an exterior wall to a report from the owner that he'd driven them out by running his electric razor against the interior wall. Mea McNeil -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:24:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Drumming bees out.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've never tried it but heard that one can drum on a hive to make the > bees move upwards. I came across a website that said bees, including > the queen, can be drummed out of structures and trees using a hammer > for about 8 - 10 minutes. Lots and lots in the archives: http://tinyurl.com/839k9 allen To be pleased with one's limits is a wretched state. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:36:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Drumming bees out.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 26/10/05 23:15:32 GMT Daylight Time, waldig@NETZERO.COM writes: <> I've never done it or seen it done, but according to old books (ROB Manley, Honey Farming is useful here) it seems that it was done in Victorian times in some areas of the UK as an alternative to killing the bees when honey was taken. The drummer would then keep the bees as payment and sell them on. Allegedly, these areas are roughly those which have subsequently suffered from 'runny' bees, as this has not been a useful characteristic for users of moveable comb hives. Regards. Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:59:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: More honey fraud MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been researching old bee stuff lately and came across the statement = that sugar cane was first called "Honey without bees." Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:05:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: SHB control In-Reply-To: <20051026154636.31236.qmail@web53403.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-17E77D79 > >Control of the small hive beetle. Someone recently told me of a SHB control. One 6" piece of PVC, with cap glued on one end. 4 - i/4" holes drilled near other end. Fill 1/2 with apple cider, place cap on other end. Stand on end in hive. SHBs enter pipe, and drown. Anybody tried this? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:20:34 -0400 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Kosher Certification for Honey Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone out there gone through whatever the process is to have their honey products certified Kosher? I have someone attempting to find a NJ supplier who is certified, and a search of the internet, OU (Orthodox Union) in particular, left me without much of a notion about how involved or, more importantly, expensive this would be. Anyone out there know the ropes? Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:22:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: SHB control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The active ingredient in the product is "fiproneil" if I spelled it right. The percent is 0.01%. This is very potent and is very good if it does what Mike's friend says it does. This is also ant poison. Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:49:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: SHB control In-Reply-To: <02dd01c5da74$ecc0b180$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I followed up the link http://tinyurl.com/b8hol supplied by Allen Dick, relating to the discussion on non permissible treatments against SHB. Off label, illegal use of pesticides etc. is a reckless action to undertake. Apart from the easily understood issue of breaking the law, such action may "bite back" and cause an unexpected situation. Glancing at the composition of some of the "Roach baits" - as shown in the links and web pages, the molecule - FIPRONIL is indicated as an active ingredient in several brands. This molecule has a history - one that beekeepers should be aware of. Agree or disagree with what can be found after searching "Bees + Fipronil", proprietary products containing this molecule should IMHO be treated with caution. The following link supplies a sensible resume about the molecule: > http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/actives/fipronil.htm Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 22:47:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Kosher Certification for Honey Products MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable see: http://tinyurl.com/8s3km -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:01:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: More "Honey" Fraud Jim, your interpretation of sugar and honey in Chinese is correct. I have never heard of "honey of reed" in China (unless they show me the characters, then I can do research). "Mi" (honey) strictly refers to sugar collected by bees. Occasionally it is used to refer to things that are sweet as an adjective (e.g. mi-zhiao, honey-jujube to refer to a date that is sweet, or mi-gua, honey-melon to refer to something similar to cantaloupe). Word of caution: I have now been in NA longer than in China (21 vs. 22), but still I remember my Chinese, but I am by no means a linguist in Chinese :) Zach, www.beetography.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:20:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Allen Dick's Diary & Other's Too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Microsoft Internet Explorer (r) has a feature allowing sets of pages to > > be saved for offline viewing. The feature is found in the dialog box > > that opens when saving favorites from the menu bar dropdown list. It can > > save quite a few related pages, using the wizard. > Taking your advice and then being able to get something to read > without having to be on line (slow) - how does one download an entire > site. I know I'm going to regret this, but also see http://tinyurl.com/9here and http://www.softpedia.com/get/Internet/Offline-Browsers/ Let me know what works for you, but please do not just use tools like this indiscriminately to use up vast amounts of server time to copy material you may not use. allen Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example. -- Mark Twain, Pudd'nhead Wilson (1894) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:59:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Murray's post on Yemeni honey started me searching for more information. I found this: http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199501/the.beekeepers.of.wadi.du.an.htm where it states: "... in Wadi Du'an, a two-pound tin of the very best honey in the comb can command a price of $100 or more". (£28 per lb). The Argan honey begins to look like a bargain! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 06:23:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter McMahon Subject: Re: AHB attire Definitely suit up or one could face dire consequences. A clipping from a local newspaper dated 24 Oct 2005: "Priest dies after being attacked by bees in Pretoria presbytery. Father Giorgio Stefani,40,of St Augustine Catholic Church, died of heart failure on Thursday morning soon after he was attacked whilst trying to remove their nest.He said he knew what to do, but he was attacked and in trying to defend himself made the bees angrier." Not something that I want to shout from the rooftops, but something that we should all be very aware of, when we approach our girls, their deadly potential. I do not want to provoke a flood of e-mails confirming the deadly trait of the "African Killer Bee", but rather to state that we should never get complacent when working with bees. Some beekeepers may be able to work hives without smoke, as I have with my AM Capensis bees, but I would never promote such behaviour and would deem my behaviour as foolish - the speed at which covers where replaced and the stings I walked away with are evidence of my foolishness ! One thing I have learnt in my short exposure to bees is: "Take note of what the girls are trying to tell you and don't force your will on a hive - the re-action to your action might not be a pleasant one." Summer is well on it's way for us and my girls and I are smiling after wonderful winter rains. Regards Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:29:54 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Drumming bees out.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...the owner that he'd driven them out by running his electric razor against the interior wall. I'd be very curious to know if the queen came out along with the bees as well! Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:29:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re Drumming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Works quite well, I've done it a number of times, i,e, X combed hive, etc. Drumming bees out of a wall is another matter, they go up but will only come "out" if there is no way to go "up" inside the cavity. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:17:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, >, as I have with my AM Capensis bees, Capensis remains very much of interest to me. What can you share with us as to your observations about the little black bee Capensis. Did you keep "Scuts" at one time? My friends in SA say the Scuts and the capensis usually stay true to the Ruttner color classification and you do not normally see the mixed color of the U.S. AHB. Do you agree? We do not see the crayon "yellow" color on our AHB. Many are close to the black of capensis but still with distinct strips. Comments? One of the first articles on AHB was in the 1976 vol. 149 No. 4 issue of National Geographic Entitled "Will Brazil's Fiery Bees Reach the U.S.?". A very honest look at AHB. I have seen over the last 40 years of keeping bees myself European bees on very very rare occasions with the aggressive genes AHB is noted for. I have seen European bees so hot smoke only mad the bees mad. OR The bees simply did not mellow to the smoke and went into an all out defense of the hive once disturbed.. I am often asked about AHB. I always caution people about swarms in areas of AHB. In the U.S. you can not tell the difference by looking except AHB swarms will greet you with stings many times before you ever approach the swarm and also while the swarm is flying. Is the same with your "Scut" swarms? Capensis? I guess enough questions. I don't want to see you return to lurking Peter without answering at least a few questions on the mysterious bees you keep. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:02:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rip Bechmann Subject: Re: SHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear writes; >>>Three years ago I had a serious infestation .... found two drawers ... Hundreds in each drawer, and not in adjacent hives.<<< What was the basis for your ID of SHB as apposed to numerous other possible "stored products" types ? Was this another SWAG? >>> I could not find adults in the hives or the drawers.<<< Not finding any in the other hives is not unusual but none in the affected hives is interesting in light of the numbers of "immatures" found and the fact that, in my experience, SHB tends to be an aggregation breeder. I should also mention that I have had problems getting reproduction with out high moisture, not your typical pollen tray. All "sap beetles", and SHB is just one with a yen for honey, feed largely on the yeasts, etc. associated with fermentation, hence all the "slop and slime" you hear about. Rip -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:00:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: SHB in New England (Was: Winter ventilation for nucs.) In-Reply-To: <20051026153429.28213.qmail@web53403.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Stoops wrote: > Bill, > Will be planting blueberry bushes this coming year > around the house. Have you noticed bees playing a > really important part in the pollination of the > blueberries? Everyone else answered this well. But since it was directed to me, I will add a bit. I also have high and low bush blueberries and do not expect them to be pollinated by my bees, unless nothing else is around. Hives on the blueberry barrens can, and often do, go in heavier than they come out. Many who pollinate go to raspberries right after blueberries to make some honey, both for the bees and for sale. Also, the bee is worked hard and will often be nearly hairless from trying to get nectar from the small blossoms. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:54:11 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: SHB in New England (Was: Winter ventilation for nucs.) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have visited extensive high bush bueberry plantations in North Carolina, about forty years ago. The commercial fields in Nova Scotia are more accessible , and more familiar to me. To my knowledge, honeybees do not feature in their growing, in either location. Pollination probably is achieved by other types of bees. On the other hand, there is a constant need for honeybees to be placed in the low bush blueberry fields during blossom time (very early spring) in the Maritime Provinces of Canada. No doubt the situation in Maine is the same. With the mite problems of recent years, the moving of hives for pollination has become problematic., to say the least Eunice Wonnacott -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:54:49 +0200 Reply-To: pmcmahon@pnp.co.za Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter McMahon Organization: pnp.co.za Subject: Re: AHB attire In-Reply-To: <055501c5daf8$caf007c0$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 Bob > Did you keep "Scuts" at one time? I am in the Western Cape and as such am tucked away in the southern most tip of Africa. The chances of interacting with Scuttellata are almost zero. Due to the Capensis ability to lay females , there is a ban on moving bees across a horizontal line running from coast to coast @ 200 kms north of my apiary - even Africans don't want my girls to mix with theirs !! So my bees are pure "thoroughbred" AM Capensis and are as you say little black bees - no mixed colours here. > > We do not see the crayon "yellow" color on our AHB. Many are close to the > black of capensis but still with distinct strips. Comments? I would love to add some pictures and will do once I get the know how of doing this on Linux. To answer your question - distinctive stripping yes - Bright yellow no except on the belly of our queens The Capensis swarms I have encountered have all been well mannered and there has been no untoward aggressiveness- whether or not they all have been primary swarms, I wouldn't know. I have taken Capensis feral colonies with no undue behaviour - obviously the girls have not been too happy about my intrusions but they did not go on a stinging rampage - a couple of times curious onlookers have been far too close for my comfort and have not been attacked. I have had no exposure to AM Scutellata due to the transport ban and from what I can gather , Scuts are the real problem and can be aggressive to the core, although Barry Sergant will testify differently. Don't get me wrong here , my girls can and do sting albeit that I can only judge on what I am exposed to. You guys overseas have the opportunity to be exposed to a variety of different breeds and can therefore have a better view of the various traits associated with different breeds. I have only been exposed to AM Capensis and am therefore more blinkered than most, but from where I now stand, wouldn't have it any other way. Regards Peter McMahon Western Cape South Africa Read our disclaimer at: http://www.picknpay.co.za/pnp/view/pnp/en/page5093? If you don't have web access, the disclaimer can be mailed to you on request. Disclaimer requests to be sent to it-security@pnp.co.za -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:11:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: SHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rip wonders if this is another 'SWAG'. Since I do not know what a SWAG is, = I cannot answer. My diagnosis as SHB was based on descriptions available from Cornell, Penn State, Florida, etc. Looked exactly like the pictures and descriptions (nothing at all similar to wax moth). Rip also commented on SHB being an aggregation breeder and said they "feed largely on the yeasts, etc. associated with fermentation, hence all the "slop and slime". Gee, that seems different than what I just read. Last month's ABJ (I think ?) said the slime is a defensive measure and commented that once the 'trigger' is pulled (I recall the article said investigators are not sure how that takes place) a single female can lay hundreds of eggs a day. Rip also suggests that high moisture (humidity?) is required to trigger reproduction. If the key is high humidity, we certainly have that near Albany NY while we are collecting pollen. I have never wanted to invest in = a meter, but I usually lose 10-15% of total pollen weight between what is collected and what I have after it is 'dried', which seems like a whole lot to me (as I sell it by the pound). Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:13:47 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: colour discriminqation in bees? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I am not familiar with these experiments, but locally, some years ago, some beekeepers experimented with different color hives, from the point of view of temperature control. White, shades of green, some blues, and violtes were among those used. If I rmember correctly, we came to the belief that bees used to one color would always return to that color, regardless of what bees were now in those boxes. EDW -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:15:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Kosher certification of Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Janet asked about this and Aaron referred her to the Bee-L archives. I have some experience in this area, but also looked at Aaron's references. One, i= n particular, should be very helpful. Unfortunately, it is among the last few on the list, http://tinyurl.com/d9v9j. Copy this and paste it into your browser. I am also not Jewish, but sell a fair amount to a few different members of the Hasidic community. Who is now my largest buyer traveled from Brooklyn t= o Albany several years ago to see the honey house before making his first purchase. After asking just a few questions and looking around he told me that as a Jew he is allowed to eat food that not certified as Kosher if the= y have reason to believe it is Kosher, and he was satisified that my honey is Kosher! Since, his annual purchases have been substantial. He uses it for gifts. Principally in connection with Rosh Hashanah. This year he showed me his label, which is wholly in Hebrew, so I presume the gifts are to Jews. He tells me that the label does not say the honey is Kosher, but the receiptents are entitled to believe it is Kosher since it comes from him. (Sounds good to me.) He tells me he keeps his honey source secret, so I am not so busy with others that he can't get his needs filled! I have a wonderful person who works with me, and she is just 32. During th= e summer she dresses like most American females working in a hot humid enviroment. Although she had talked to this buyer several times on the phone, they had never met. The schedules were such this summer that they would meet and, as a precaution, I asked him what dress would not offend him. His reply was "I'm not sure how to reply, except that if you asked me during the winter I would tell you that any dress would be ok." I then aske= d about a 'shirt and pants', and he replied "that will be fine". I mentioned this to someone else, who is Jewish, and she told me 'make sur= e there are no bare shoulders, and no visable nipples'. And went on to say 'warn her that he will not shake her hand, look her in the eye, or even acknowledge her presence.' So I expanded on the dress 'requirement', and warned her accordingly. The actual meeting was extraordinary. I introduced the two of them, and he reacted as expected, except that the moment came when he somehow invited both of us (and it was clear he included her in his invitation) into his home (we delivered the honey). He was a very gracious host to both of us, without ever actually looking at Amber. An interesting and educational experience for us both, that only occured because of beekeeping! -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:21:16 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Blueberry Pollination (Was: SHB in New England (Was: Winter ventilation for nucs.)) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I suspect one of the difficulties with bees pollinating low bush blueberries has to do with the daytime temperatures at which (so early in the spring) the blueberries are in bloom. This would be very close to being too cool for honeybees to fly, but bumble bees do work at lower temperatures, so they get the job done. One of our larger beekeepers , however, did produce some blueberry honey for a few seasons. Overall, that product is not too nice a flavor and is best left to the bees for their own use. EDW -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:06:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Blueberry Pollination and BB honey In-Reply-To: <009001c5db0a$135a7b60$9216de18@apartment> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eunice Wonnacott wrote: > Overall, that product is not too nice a flavor and is best > left to > the bees for their own use. Actually, one of the better sellers at the Fair where our State Chapter sold honey. Plus, we sold it at a premium price. All in the taste buds. Another example is Buckwheat honey which sell fine in NY but would be hard to give away here. I raised Buckwheat as a cover/soil enrichment crop and the honey was dark and molasses like. Or sludge, which is more what my opinion of it was. This sort of links with the most expensive honey thread, since some of the most expensive "rare" honey I have tasted, I did not like. Maybe that is why it is so rare :) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:05:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB attire In-Reply-To: <055501c5daf8$caf007c0$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison writes: I am often asked about AHB. I always caution people about swarms in areas of AHB. In the U.S. you can not tell the difference by looking except AHB swarms will greet you with stings many times before you ever approach the swarm and also while the swarm is flying. Reply: Bob I am surprised that people would ask you this as you don't live in a supposed AHB area. A am more surprised that you know how the ferals supposedly act down here in the southern part of the USA. I myself have never seen a swarm react that way in all my years except when something is actively being done to rile them, like sharp shot of water to them, or pesiticdes, or hitting with whatever is handy, or someone just out to get on TV to promote swarm removal for the monetary returns. And this only when clustered or established, just like supposed european honeybees. As for doing it while the swarm is flying???? sure........so what else do you assume about them, as here we go with the assuming by someone not in the area but listening instead to hype and whatever. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:35:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Kosher certification of Honey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A long time ago I wrote a short article on this subject, and for most Jews, honey is already Kosher. But, as in most things that are subject to interpretation, for some it is not. Lloyd noted that his friend's label did not certify the honey as Kosher. This would be the best approach since, depending on the person, it might be, since honey is Kosher, or might not. http://www.jewishcooking.org/kosherfood/honey.html is typical and the information is mirrored in many links to the question. http://oukosher.org/index.php/articles/single/5361/ has a bit more and includes some additional requirements. Hence, if "Kosher" is on the label it adds to the problem, since is it "Kosher" because it has gone through the process or because honey is Kosher? If you are questioned on this and do not meet the individual's interpretation of Kosher, you could be in trouble. Lloyd's friend is wise. Just leave it off. Or give the person a print of one of the links (after getting permission) along with the way you process the honey which will show it is Kosher, at least to most. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:42:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AHB attire Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I have seen over the last 40 years of keeping bees myself European bees on very very rare occasions with the aggressive genes AHB is noted for. I've wondered what has prevented Scut genes from migrating up through the Middle East and into Europe? There are several strains of bees in North Africa but I believe they differ from AHBs. Could the Sahara desert be such an effective barrier? It's amazing how fast AHB has spread in the Americas! Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:52:21 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: AHB attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Bob I am surprised that people would ask you this as you > don't live in a supposed AHB area. Prepare to be even more surprised - I am frequently asked about 'Killer bees' here in the UK! The usual question is 'Will they come here?' I would like to say no, but given mankind's recent history of moving undesirable pests and diseases around the world I am cautious about ruling anything out. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:55:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB attire Comments: To: pmcmahon@pnp.co.za MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, > Did you keep "Scuts" at one time? No. > Scuts are the real problem and can be aggressive to the core, although Barry Sergant will testify differently. Barry and I talk from time to time. He has an instrumentaal insemination queen breeding program so many of the wild "scut" traits he can eliminate. He tells me he traps around 600 wild "scut" hives a year and uses for honey production until they are taken over by capensis and then the hives die. Why can't Barry simply keep capensis like you? On Barry's web page he shows one of his queens which is very European looking at least to me. Some of the workers in the picture show the typical crayon yellow coloration. Dr. Kerr believe the AHB could be tamed. Steve Tabor did also but the powers that be said "not at the Baton Rouge Bee lab !". What is the natural cell size for your capensis? Do you use the 4.9mm foundation like Barry uses and has sent many beekeepers back before Dadant ran 4.9mm. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:22:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: International Queen Resources & Availability of European, Apis mellifera MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To the List, I have been working on a series of articles with the theme of raising your own queens; much of the material has been focused on the American queen industry and the queens available to citizens in the US and Canada with proper permitting. Some of the queens here in the US have special traits and characteristics in that they show resistance to various diseases and parasites while others are simply common to their breed. That’s fine and dandy for those readers in North America; but I am sure that readers in lands far away on other continents have their own agenda available and research is being conducted for combating the same problems that exist here and possibly more. Moreover, I believe that there are some countries that legally import American queens, I would like to know all about such cases. My not having access to current internationally published research nor knowing what queens and their characteristics are available on the market all over the world gives my natural curiosity a sharp sting. So I ask of the many readers of BEE-L all over the World to help me understand your own queen markets and the research that is recent and current in order that an article can be brought to fruition giving an up to date status of the World wide problems that us beekeepers face and the genetic lines of defense available. If you wish please response to the email address below or you are welcome to reply with a BEE-L posting. With sincere appreciation and thanks, Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320 Email: Carolina Beeman@bellsouth.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:15:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, >Bob I am surprised that people would ask you this as you don't live in a supposed AHB area. I am the beekeeper at the largest farmer market in the six state area. I am the fourth beekeeper in the same location. I kid people and say work with three beekeeper ghosts! The Kansas City Old historic market (est. 1855 I believe) put up a bronze marker saying a beekeer has been in the same location every season without interruption since 1926 and the longest running vendor. Four generations of beekeepers! So when I show up I meet and talk to many people. The number one question is without a doubt "how many times do you get stung!" but many ask about AHB. > A am more surprised that you know how the ferals supposedly act down here in the southern part of the USA. I am a friend of Dr. Orley Taylor (University of Kansas). He spent five years in your neck of the woods doing AHB research (at a cost to beekeepers of approx. 250,000 U.S.). I have seen his videos (both public and private)and heard his talks many times. I have also had private converstations. >I myself have never seen a swarm react that way in all my years except when something is actively being done to rile them, Try reading "Confessions of the Killer Bee Guy" by Reed Booth, he was your neighbor! Excellent book which I highly recommend. You can order the book at 1-520-452-5573 and ask Reed about AHb first hand. Bob __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:10:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: International Queen Resources & Availability of European, Apis mellifera MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To the List, I apologize for any inconvenience, the E-mail address below has been corrected; please take note of it if replying directly. With sincere appreciation and thanks, Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320 USA Email: Carolinabeeman@bellsouth.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:30:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: Varroa/Pollen Traps It will depend on what type of pollen trap. For Ontario type, yes you will see varroa since it is basically a screen bottom board with larger holes for bees to go upward. for other types (the one that fits in the front), you might find a few mites but here only the mites on foragers and only a small percentage would fell (most of the time mites are not the bee legs!). Zach, http://www.bees.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:37:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: October Cover Photo I have uploaded a 3rd talk to http://cyberbee.net/huangtalk/ This is very fresh data (The last few bees are emerging today, of the 2nd batch). Part of the talk I will be giving tomorrow at the Michigan Beekeepers Association. You guys are having a preview earlier than them! I deleted the rest of the talk so you still would have to come, if you are in Michigan :) Zach -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:18:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: chuck smith Subject: German black bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good afternoon all I have a question for the group.That i hope someone can answer for me.The question is.What kind of hoops do you have to jump thru to reimport some german black bees to the states. Thanks in advance Chuck Smith --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:16:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: AHB attire In-Reply-To: <20051027.094232.20881.20829@webmail21.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >I've wondered what has prevented Scut genes from migrating up through the >Middle East and into Europe? There are several strains of bees in North >Africa but I believe they differ from AHBs. Could the Sahara desert be >such an effective barrier? Yes. It has allowed separate evolution for 2,000 years, as I read. Mea -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:29:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Drumming bees out.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have done this on several occasions. Method: gather usual protective clothing and tools and a box/skep for the bees to move into. Smoke the colony whilst avoiding smoke getting into the new receptacle. Place the new box above the old with a 'bridge' so that the bees can walk uphill from one to the other. Drum on the lower box with the bees roughly on a pulse beat with the hands hitting the sides of the box momentarily apart so the box is jarred. Do this from a comfortable position as it will take some time. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:41:42 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cosman and Whidden Honey Limited Subject: Re: blueberry pollination and blueberry honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Contrary to what others have reported, honey bees are used extensively in Nova Scotia for highbush blueberry pollination as well as for lowbush blueberries. Significant honey crops are produced on both berry types and the honey is of good quality and popular with consumers. Tom Cosman -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:18:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: German black bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Chuck, > What kind of hoops do you have to jump thru to reimport some german black bees to the states. > Little bitty tight ones, that you will have a hard time fitting through. You could probably do so if you could guarantee complete isolation, and no escape to feral populated areas. You also will get heat from most of the beekeeping community in the USA but not from me. If you do have success getting importation rights I would love to obtain some to test up here in Alaska. You will need permit from APHIS and ASDA. Permit forms can be obtained from their web site on PDF format. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:33:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB attire In-Reply-To: <05b701c5db1a$11682e00$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison writes: Try reading "Confessions of the Killer Bee Guy" by Reed Booth, he was yourneighbor! Excellent book which I highly recommend.You can order the book at 1-520-452-5573 and ask Reed about AHb first hand. Reply: Okay, knowing your gift of gab and his gift of gab, I get the point, stories sure do get around for POV for selling and enjoyment! But unfortunately it's not real-world to the rest of us working. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:46:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB attire In-Reply-To: <003b01c5db16$ccfaf750$e8742a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob and Peter This is interesting conversation so far. But bees only bear the label put on them by man and in Nature they are still just yellow or black or ? colour bees. Yet, all bees sting and all bees have hot sides and normal sides besides some that need mollycoddeling like poodles. So given a mask or just by reversing the names even, if say AHB were just called by their regular name, would the public even care. Or if say some northern strain were to be called "killer" by the media and inspection personnel, would it become one of dread overnight? especially if it were involved with say a fatal stinging incident like we hear of from time to time? How much is public perspective in all of this for ongoing concerns? compared to actuality? Respectfuly submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:59:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB attire In-Reply-To: <20051027.094232.20881.20829@webmail21.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar writes: It's amazing how fast AHB has spread in the Americas! Reply: Yes, with so few brought in, then having to spread thru climatic transitiory zones contrary to them for breeding this way, and supposedly staying so pure, it is amazing. But then too Waldemar, Bob wrote earlier that for the 5 years Taylor was noting this he got 250,000USD. and look at the proceeds since then, and besides, who could it hurt, for certainly good commercial beekeepers would certainly know how to react and keep their bees okay from becoming same? And the politics of the time back then as it spread, if I remember, did it help or hinder? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups/yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:44:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: German black bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck asks: >What kind of hoops do you have to jump thru to reimport some german black bees to the states. The hoops could possibly be jumped through but are you ready to invest thousands of dollars in a queen? You would pave the road for others by importing. A beekeeper and a lawyer were the players in the Australian import but then the rest of the industry gets to import without spending money. You could import your German queen/queens by way of Australia right now but the entry into Australia would run thousands of dollars. An import from Germany of semen and then inseminated into your queen would be easier. Weavers could tell you what's involved and the cost as would be similar to the Buckfast semen import. You might contact Ohio queen breeders and ask as they might be better able to explain what's involved in a semen import. If you do not do instrumental insemination then you would need an inseminator. The semen is easily shipped. To get pure German from Australia you would need to import two queen lines into Australia. I have most likely provided more information than you wanted. If money is not an issue and you want the queen regardless of the cost email me direct. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:07:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? Here's a claimed "most expensive honey world" http://www.worldsfoods.com/view.asp?prod_ID=2884 sounds interesting though -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 23:20:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: German black bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Chuck and Keith, Actually they are here, been here since about 1621, they are mean and nasty and sometimes either so small or so determined that they will come through the louvers in a plastic helmet buzzing like a saw mill. After liberally smoking the entrance and waiting a pregnant pause then taking off a top cover and smoking the entrance to the inner cover at the same time will produce hoards of angry German blacks right in your face! I wrote about an experience with these critters in the May 2004 Bee Culture. I have had two yards twenty miles apart which had hives that took on the German Black traits in a hive that had swarmed. In both cases those hives turned into super producers; I just could not stand working with them. In one case, I moved a mating yard because there were so many German blacks in the area. Yes, there are some folks that think that these are the best bees in the world and they propagate them and even sell queens, queen cells, and frames with eggs. Even now with queen yards having 25 to 30 drone mother colonies I still see a few German Blacks mixed in with my drone stock returning to my hives after mating flights. How the feral colonies survive Varroa is beyond me. Cheers, Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm 330 Irvin Street Reidsville, NC 27320 USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:49:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Succeeding With Small Cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen Dick wrote back on 16Oct05: Some say that the genetics of your bee stock has changed during that decade, with that selection pressure, and with bees migrating through the region. In a few words, what are your thoughts on that? Reply: DNA research has come forward a great deal in that time frame also, and we now know that DNA changes eversoslightly with each mating. So I would have to say that since I firmly believe that Environment (which includes cell size)is a catalist that then changes both diet and breeding, then our hives' genetics have changed just by us changing cell size. What I don't buy completely is bees migrating through the region, though I can see us being in a climatic transitioning area between yellow tropical races/strains and darker black temperate races/strains that naturally break out by latitude. I say this because I really have not seen a change in our honeybees since we have sized down again be it temperment or otherwise, from what we saw basically prior to any other bees supposedly passing through. But in saying this concerning the bees up in the hills, I have seen change in bees in and around incorporated areas, but rationalize this as due to beekeepers being told to by stock from breeders (which few in the area really did before) to keep from taking on traits of the bees migrating through, which just by mixing and matching multiple races/strains can cause problems creating artificially for a few years what to me has been going on, though now with most local beekeepers out of business the situation is practically moot. In the long run we shall indeed see Allen what the changes are concerning all of this, for I still have saved in time capsule the duplicate samples in alcohol, and sealed with signed taping over the lids taken of our bees by state inspectors, that were used by the Arizona Department of Agriculture, in setting up our states data base for Africanization confirmation and and also sent to the USDA for their usage also for same. It is well way over a decade for now for the samples. How long shall the wait be you think? 20 years? More? to see what the changes have been. And yes, I still believe in Native bees. Believing seeing something different to say AHB never ruled out the difference might be Native also. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:33:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Fredericksen gave this link: > http://www.worldsfoods.com/view.asp?prod_ID=2884 Normal price £56 per lb - easily the most expensive so far. Interestingly, their Parmesan cheese is cheaper than in some of our local shops and not much dearer than the supermarkets. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:28:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [BEE-L] German black bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I understand it, the German Black Bee is Apis melifera melifera and whilst it has a reputation for being a 'hot' bee this trait can be modified by breeding and by using a pure strain. The recent attempt at the World bee beard in Ireland prior to Apimondia used pure bred Apis melifera melifera.. I can vouch that they did not behave as Chuck states. Ruary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Norton" >they are mean and nasty and ...... so determined that they will come > through the louvers in a plastic helmet buzzing like a saw mill. After > liberally smoking the entrance and waiting a pregnant pause then taking > off a top cover and smoking the entrance to the inner cover at the same > time will produce hoards of angry German blacks right in your face! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:38:36 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: German black bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > To get pure German from Australia you would need to import two queen lines > into Australia. You would only need to import one line to be able to get pure stock back to the USA. Takes a bit of time here but it has been regularly done in the past. If you are interested, the details for importing are available but I would imagine you would need to have a beekeeper in Australia do the work for you. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 04:20:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: German black bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What exactly do you mean by 'German black bees'? There are selected strains of A.m.m. avalable if you want to go to that much trouble, but as far as I know they all come from the UK or Ireland, not Germany. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:32:40 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: German black bees In-Reply-To: <065201c5db61$1bbcdd00$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <065201c5db61$1bbcdd00$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres>, Bob Harrison writes >You could import your German queen/queens by way of Australia right now but >the entry into Australia would run thousands of dollars. OK, cant resist this one. 1. German blacks is a bit of a misnomer anyway, it is the Northern European Black bee, A.m.m. Here are a huge range of local ecotypes, yes there are and were German ones. But also there are Pyrenees ones, Irish ones, British ones, and lots more. All the way from the north of Spain to the arctic circle, and stock can be got from all these areas. 2. They are generally not small bees. Perhaps you have a local ecotype there that is small enough to get in the louvres, but here they would be the bees least likely to get in there. 3. They are not always aggressive. Some are, some are not. Selection away from aggression is perfectly possible. Look up the Galtee Breeding Group in Ireland if you are sceptical. 4.They exist in Australia already. It is not necessary to import fresh stock. I am well aware of there being a conservation area for these bees in Tasmania, and recently, when Trevor Weatherhead visited me, he told me that the Cape York peninsula in the north east also has these bees. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:40:30 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: In vitro Bees In-Reply-To: <200510272037.j9RKaEP2005126@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Zach > This is very fresh data (The last few bees are emerging today, of the 2nd > batch). Part of the talk I will be giving tomorrow at the Michigan > Beekeepers Association. This is a great breakthrough, I wonder how much work went into the preliminary stages ? I can see some very useful breeding tools emerging in future from such a technique, but I have a few questions. Your method feeds the larva an apparently unrestricted and unchanging diet through the whole period of development, I was under the impression that worker bees were able to adjust the feed rate and recipe according to various external conditions and age of the larva. I realise that it is 'early days' for this technique and that feed could be provided in a changing fashion by very simple controls and pumping, is a varying diet unnecessary or are the larva/adult bees deficient in some way ? When you describe one of the resulting adults as 'queen like' can you give more details of the appearance of the legs ? If this technique could be developed for drone production, it would help those of us using instrumental insemination. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 06:16:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: beekeeping editorial (was AHB attire) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee said: > But unfortunately it's not real-world to the rest of us working. I understand! Beekeeping editorial: We must also remember that the internet is similar to the halls of a bee meeting. Things can be said which are not allowed in print as they can not be *proven*. Each side can present their side of the discussion. Does not matter their level of knowledge. Exactly like a discussion before or after a bee meeting or in the halls of a national meeting. The internet discussion is kind of like a trial. Each side of the discussion adds its facts or opinions and then the rest of the list in the *jury*. The difference is you never know the list jury verdict. You and I are more alike than different Dee! We don't care if its better to put a hive on blocks or railroad ties. Drill a hole for ventilation or use a inner cover with a hole. We are into the deeper issues of beekeeping. We think "outside the box" and are not afraid to try new ideas. The people on BEE-L list represent less than 1% of the worlds beekeepers. An elite group! For the most part what is said on BEE-L stays on BEE-L. We should discuss all aspects of a given subject. There are no right or wrong answers and the discussion is not in black & white. The reader will always with BEE-L or any other list have to follow along and try to glean useful information which will help with his/her beekeeping from the not so useful! On BEE-L I believe we should discuss the taboo subjects which our researchers avoid because they are afraid of the media, peer pressure or loss of funding. Lets talk about AHB and capensis. Be honest when you have hive losses so we can all be aware of what's happening. I have lost half my hives two different times. In the archives. If all my hives died tomorrow I would be up on BEE-L saying my hives died and need help with the problem! Not slipping around trying to hide the problem so other beekeepers will think I am a perfect beekeeper. You put the story of yours & Ed's outfit for the world to see. I have done the same with mine with articles and the internet. To those beekeeping lurkers which are secretive and do not share I say: Consider the worlds bees as one big bee hive. We have all got a shared interest as beekeepers in the well being of the planets honey bees. Your problems will eventually be my problems in the future. Lets all work together to solve the problems and address the tough issues instead of sweeping under the rug. Bob __________________________________ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:14:07 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AHB attire Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee, >>...who could it hurt, for certainly good commercial beekeepers would certainly know how to react and keep their bees okay from becoming same? I have no doubt commercial beekeepers in AHB territory strive to requeen ABH-behavior out when they see it in their hives. However, you do get reports up north about hot hives after they were requeened with queens from Texas. So nothing is 100%. I simply marvel at the speed ABH has spread in the feral populations in the Americas in recent decades and wonder why the same has not happened - as far as I know - in North Africa and southern Europe or even in central Asia. You'd think people and bees migrate a lot in those areas, too. >>And the politics of the time back then as it spread, if I remember, did it help or hinder? You'll get proponets and opponents on this issue. But like you said, bees in nature are what they are regardless what labels people attach to them. If it were not for the spectacular, although argueably few, deaths of people from stings of overly defensive bees, politics would not enter into the equation. Politicians have to 'do something' when disasters strike. It strikes a sensitive cord in the population when it's reported that the 1st victim of AHB in California was a beekeeper. If ABH killed a rep of the group that best knows how to handle bees, what is an elderly lady in a wheelchair to do? It does sound like a situation out of control. It's hard to blame the general population which knows little about bees for taking extreme measures to protect themselves. I'd never keep bees with AHB behavior near population centers. You can't educate everyone and the invalid, the elderly and children will fall victim. Because if its deadly potential, AHB has to be taken very seriously in populated areas. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:13:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: beekeeping editorial (was AHB attire) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Harrison wrote: > For the most part what is said on BEE-L stays on BEE-L.=20 =20 Not so! BEE-L reaches way beyond the Internet. Discussions on BEE-L = serve as the seed for articles in the trade magazines. The editors of = the major US beekeeping magazines subscribe. BEE-L is also a source for = local newsletter articles. =20 Researchers and extension agents lurk on the list. Would that more = participated, but it's understandable why they do not, when their = participation leads to being browbeaten and misquoted it's easier to = listen to the conversations than to converse. But ideas and discussions = on BEE-L DO make it back to the labs, either directly, by word of mouth, = or a simple mail forward from a subscriber who is friendly with someone = who does not subscribe. =20 BEE-L is not a closed environment, it is open and far reaching. It is = not hallway discussion, and things that are said ARE in print and = directly attributable to the author. I agree that the tough issues = should be discussed on BEE-L, but the discussion should not be "Wild = West" where one can say anything with wild abandon and disregard for = what they say. =20 =20 Aaron Morris - Thinking there is accountability in this world. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:30:03 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Drumming bees out.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, Chris. >>Place the new box above the old with a 'bridge' so that the bees can walk uphill from one to the other. Drum on the lower box... What percentage of bees actually come up? And, what's of greatest interest to me, did the queen come up as well? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 07:41:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: German black bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If money is not an issue and you want the queen regardless of the cost > email me direct. Hmmm. And forget the red tape? allen A little nonsense now and then, is cherished by the wisest men. -- Roald Dahl, (Willy Wonka) Charlie and the Chocolate Factory -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:30:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: German black bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray said: 4.They exist in Australia already. It is not necessary to import fresh stock. I did not know they existed in a pure form in Australia. They would then be fairly easy to get imported and the cost would be in getting the export permit from the Australian inspection service ( approx. $120 an hour to inspect for the long list of items needed inspected for to export to the U.S.) and then shipping with either a large queen order or with a package shipment. Shipping a single queen is too expensive. Cost would be involved but not the $4-5000 initial investment of bringing a single A.mm queen through the Australian inspection service into Australia. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:55:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jo=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E3o?= Campos Subject: Re: AHB attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Try reading "Confessions of the Killer Bee Guy" by Reed Booth, he was your >neighbor! Excellent book which I highly recommend. Hi, Bob. To my knowledge (18 years keeping AHBs), and the ones' I've been talking with, Dee is right. AHB swarms pose no risk to humans or animals, unless they are physically disturbed in some way. Usually, you can easily handle the swarm, spray it with water, and hive it, I think much like your gentle girls. Also, small colonies are often very manageable, I mean, we get no or very little aggressive behaviour from them. I don't know Reed Booth nor have I read his book. Maybe he keeps meaner bees than us here in Brazil, but I wouldn't bet my money on that... BTW, that reminded me a funny story told by Mark Winston in his book "Killer Bees" - the book is far better than its title. There was a guy who covered the research they did in Guiana for a magazine, if I'm not wrong - the book is not with me right now, and some time later he started to sell "Killer Bees Honey". The ad said something like "When you taste its unique flavor, think about how many lives it cost. And enjoy. If you can". Ha! :oD Regards, João Campos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:28:43 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: blueberry pollination and blueberry honey MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT VEry interesting. I have not tried it personally, but was reporting the opinions of others. A mistake on my part. (I love buckwheat honey too, and we know what some folk think of that !) EDW -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 08:39:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: AHB attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Also, small colonies are often very manageable, I mean, we get no or > very little aggressive behaviour from them. I don't know Reed Booth > nor have I read his book. Maybe he keeps meaner bees than us here in > Brazil, but I wouldn't bet my money on that. Deey Caron also reports that the behaviour of the AHB depends on the climate where it is found. I'm not sure about new arrivals, but, apparently, colonies he found in temperate areas at higher altitudes in an AHB area were mistaken for EHB by their behaviour, until they were tested -- as I recall. allen Those who flee temptation generally leave a forwarding address. -- Lane Olinghouse -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:05:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB attire In-Reply-To: <20051028.061428.21659.27420@webmail48.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar writes: I'd never keep bees with AHB behavior near population centers. Reply: So what has AHB become them, the new nomenclature or simplistic word for nothingmore then hot bees, as aggressive bees doesn't ketch public opinion anymore? If this being true, then the now similar German Black bees could be said to be AHBs, or whatever, but is this fair to those living in so-called AHB territory if they have never seen the so-called changes in behaviour in their hives? And with politics being politics, and money/regulations being changed due to it, is this fair trade practice to beekeepers in so-called AHB areas if they then cannot practice business/farming as normal, then having to fight restrictions on movement that other beekeepers in now political hotness have to deal with? Could restitution ever be made for this? To the states? To other farmers hurt in pollenation losses? To beekeepers? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:49:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: What is a "statistically significant" Increase in Stinging Deaths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> I have to wonder at what a "statistically significant" increase in >>> stinging deaths would be? >>Well any increase in the existing pattern of incidents that does not >> seem, after proper measurement and statistical analysis, to be >> attributable to chance. > I agree that we should challenge the "common knowledge" that AHB > leads to an increase in stinging deaths. However, I don't hold out > much hope for a study proving it one way or the other. Here is a follow-up. I spoke to Justin Schmidt the other day. He has done work on serious bee stinging incidents in the USA up to 2004. I asked him if there has been any change in the pattern and number of deaths over the period that AHB has spread, and he said, that, curiously, there is not -- that he could see to that point, although one should think there should be. I gather that one problem is that such incidents are sufficiently rare, unique, and distributed geographically, that there are not enough samples to establish patterns above the noise. allen History is more or less bunk. -- Henry Ford -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:59:15 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AHB attire Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>So what has AHB become them, the new nomenclature or simplistic word for nothingmore then hot bees... I know identifying AHB precisely is problematic. On the other hand, when long time beekeepers report getting dozens of stings while picking berries some 40-50 ft away from the hives, that's a new development for sure and reason for concern. Here in suburbia, I follow the 'Good Neighbor Policy' and keep my hives conservatively 15 ft from my property line on both sides to minimize bee contact with my neighbors. I can imagine the uproar if one of neighbors received dozens of stings from an overly defensive hive! Sorry but I won't have it. I might think differently if my hives were in an isolated spot and all the exposure was on me. >>If this being true, then the now similar German Black bees could be said to be AHBs, or whatever.... AHB can come in different temperaments. I am only talking about [any race] overly defensive colonies. >>...but is this fair to those living in so-called AHB territory if they have never seen the so-called changes in behaviour in their hives? I am not critical of how you keep bees in Arizona. Far from it. I've seen several reports of gentle AHB/Scuts but most reports in bee media say the classic AHB response is very defensive and it's tough to breed it out. I don't know the genetics of your bees but if they are not overly defensive then that's wonderful. I've heard Buckfast bees from one of the AHB states can be very hot in the Northeast which has not been the case prior to the AHB arrival. >>...this fair trade practice to beekeepers in so-called AHB areas if they then cannot practice business/farming as normal Please don't misunderstand. I said I would never keep AHB. I was talking about the classic overly defensive behavior. And I live and keep bees in a densely populated area. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:02:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan & Jan Subject: Re: SHB control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I might suggest that the manufacturer of the "roach gel" would not have supported the mentioned use. The manufacturer has the power to stop any use of their product. No support, no funding, no registration. Dan Veilleux Boone area In the Mountains of NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:13:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: AHB attire In-Reply-To: <20051028160552.61380.qmail@web51615.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So some say that AHB are just fine and only need a little different handling. Can you imagine a beekeeper announcing they are keeping AHB in or near a population center? They would have to be terminally stupid. Or what if they knew their bees were AHB and did nothing, but then were found out? By-by beekeeping in that area. All beekeeping would be zoned out of existence. It would not matter if the AHB were gentle, courteous, and voted the local party ticket. Lawyers would love it, since the first person stung would take care of their boat payments. If you read about lawsuits involving stinging incidents, it is difficult to prove what stung who, but the jury would be biased because of the hype surrounding AHB. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:45:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: beekeeping editorial (was AHB attire) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Researchers and extension agents lurk on the list. understandable why they do not, when their participation leads to being browbeaten and misquoted it's easier to listen to the conversations than to converse. I think the reasons I gave fit the researcher scenario better than yours but only my opinion. Researchers are held in awe at their presentations by the average beekeeper. On Bee-L as few of us are prepared to lock horns with researchers and question the so called absolute truths many (not all for certain) put out. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:55:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: beekeeping editorial (was AHB attire) In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C0E09@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron Morris writes: It is not hallway discussion, and things that are said ARE in print and directly attributable to the author. Reply: How long has this been? Is it the same with other discussion groups? Forums? Why or why not? Where is this set in blood? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:42:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: beekeeping editorial (was AHB attire) I think that Bob Harrison offered a more reasonable assessment of online discussion groups than Aaron, but I can't fully agree with either: >> ...the internet is similar to the halls of a bee meeting. >> Things can be said which are not allowed in print as they >> can not be *proven*. Just about anything is "allowed in print". I am living proof of just how much one can "get away with". The difference between online and "in print" has more to do with developing a well-reasoned and insightful message that attempts to address more than one possible point of view, rather than expressing a single (personal) point of view. >> Exactly like a discussion before or after a bee meeting or >> in the halls of a national meeting. This is a very fair assessment. Its an ongoing discussion. Aaron discussed several points, each intended to introduce into the discussion the view there is "more than a discussion" going on. > Discussions on BEE-L serve as the seed for articles in > the trade magazines. The appearance of discussions on the various online discussion groups, Bee-L included, tend to lag publication of articles, not the other way around. Yes, there have been many items that have appeared online before appearing in the trade press, but this correlation does not imply causality. The minimum lead-time for a magazine is about a month. There is no lead-time online. You push "send", and others can read what you sent within minutes. > The editors of the major US beekeeping magazines subscribe. Yes, they scour the internet hoping to find beekeepers who can write. (While this is akin to searching the bars at 2am in hopes of finding a tea-totaler, they persist in looking.) > BEE-L is also a source for local newsletter articles. Very true. Local newsletter editors have a problem getting people to both commit to writing, and to deliver articles on time. > BEE-L is not a closed environment, it is open and far reaching. It reaches around 800 people right now. The Tri-County (Ohio) February meeting has more attendees every year than Bee-L has members. I agree with "far-reaching", but the internet is merely far-reaching in terms of physical locations, rather than cultures or socio-economic groups. For example, the Tri-County meeting attracts a significant number of Amish beekeepers, not an easy group to "reach" online. :) The minimum ante required to "be on the internet" implies that many beekeepers are not able to take part, or not interested in taking part. Certainly the "3rd World" is mostly excluded. We tend to have these discussions with people "mostly like us", regardless of location. > things that are said ARE in print No, they are merely on a disc drive somewhere. That is not "in print" at all, as "in print" requires someone to agree to invest actual money to publish it, and send it out to people who pay hard-earned money for each issue of the publication. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:04:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Removing bees from a cavity (was drumming) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Drumming bees out of a wall is another matter, they go up but will only come "out" if there is no way to go "up" inside the cavity. In several occasions I have had success in removing bees from a cavity by putting a few drops of Bee Go on an absorbant material and with the aid of a long flexible stick placing the smelly stuff beyond the bees thus forcing them towards the entrance. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:32:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: beekeeping editorial (was AHB attire) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob, > Consider the worlds bees as one big bee hive. We have all got a shared > interest as beekeepers in the well being of the planets honey bees. Your > problems will eventually be my problems in the future. Lets all work > together to solve the problems and address the tough issues instead of > sweeping under the rug. > Ditto Bob, You said it good, and if I could just convince our Alaskan beekeepers of this big improvements could be made up here with beekeeping instead of all the bee killing that happens year after year. Bees can and do survive up here but at present with fairly big losses that,in my opinion, can be improved by improving genetics, methods, and good stewardship. I hope that Steve Victors is listening, president of South-Central Alaska Beekeepers Association (SABA), and understands what you have said above and does the right thing by leading SABA to tackle the tough issues like I have been trying to get the SABA members and other beekeepers who only have bees for harvesting honey in the summer. We as beekeepers should be solving problems and improving methods instead of sweeping them under the rug, like is commonly done here in Alaska. Steve, the next big problem for us up here is small hive beetle because if they can live in Maine or Vermont they will live up here. It is not! a matter of if but when this will happen. With as many package bees entering as Alaska has it will be sooner than later. Wake up SABA and other Alaska beekeepers. Bob I agree with all you said on this thread so far, thanks, . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:44:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: AHB attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All, I see this subject a little like Dee does mostly and in addition if I may say, even to those who do not appreciate my OPINION, AHB is a beekeeper problem created by beekeepers and a problem that is promoted by beekeepers. Many a beekeeper is playing right up with all the media hype and research and scientific misinformation. AHB is probably a great bee that someday in the future will be "THE BEE". We should probably as a community of beekeepers be talking a lot nicer about this bee to improve our own image as a group of beekeepers. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 16:48:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gord Hutchings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I am mainly interested in MEGACHILIDAE and have a question regarding = Osmia. I am currently attempting to write up a little write-up regarding = the cleaning of the coccoons to rid them of the mites (Chaetodactylus = spp.)associated with them. I have exhausted my literature review and = search regarding this subject and have come up with no references. Sure, = there's some mention of it on the internet and a few books, but I am = looking for scientific sources only. Can anyone direct me to some sources. You may contact me off-list if appropriate. Cheers, Gord Hutchings Victoria, B.C. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:01:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Beekeeping Editorial MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just to let you all know I am an Apiary Inspector as well as a beekeeper. I quite often hesitate to respond to remarks on Bee-L lest someone should take what I have to say as "Policy" or Dept. opinion. Let me say now that anything I say here is my knowledge or my opinion, not anyone elses, period. Another reason I don't contribute very much is the fear of putting my foot in my mouth. I bet you've all been there. What I read here leads to alot of side discussions with list members, as well as others ,off the list. Aaron knows I need a computer course so I don't add to the excessive quotes. Which brings me to another subject. When someone writes in and has only one word or two on a line, does that take up Archive space like the excessive quotes? My work as an Apiary Inspector gives me a certain point of view of not only the industry but also some of the "characters" who contribute to the list. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 18:11:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: beekeeping editorial (was AHB attire) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > ...BEE-L reaches way beyond the Internet... and Aaron went on to share > some informed insider glimpses... Guests immediately questioned his disclosures. Why contradict our host and (patient, tactful) benefactor? He knows much more than he tells. allen Things are more like they are now than they have ever been. -- Gerald R. Ford -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:05:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, >>So what has AHB become them, the new nomenclature or simplistic word for nothingmore then hot bees... In short researchers have defined the genes which cause aggression in the AHB. DNA can put a label on AHB. Other countries do not want those genes. In order to import a queen into Australia the queen is tested by DNA to make sure not a percent is AHB. Arizona has no inspection and is a wide open state. If inspections come things could become interesting. Florida was a wide open state in many ways until Jerry Hayes ( Marshal Dillion) arrived. Look what he turned up? Does the list really believe all those AHb hives came in the year found. If you do I have got some oceanfront property in Missouri for sale! Jerry Hayes (Marshal Dillion) offered Bob Harrison (Big Iron) a job helping clean up the state! I do not ride as fast as I used to or shoot as straight so I declined the job. >>...but is this fair to those living in so-called AHB territory if they have never seen the so-called changes in behaviour in their hives? You are in a remote desert area already considered by the USDA and the bee lab to be totally africanized. The lab reports (and shows slides at meetings) of AHb taking over hives. If you say you see no problems then I stand with you as I respect you and your word. >>...this fair trade practice to beekeepers in so-called AHB areas if they then cannot practice business/farming as normal The Weavers practice business/ farming as normal so should you especially in a remote area. I believe three counties surrounding their apiaries are considered AHB but I have been told the AHB respect the county line and do not cross over. The AHb workers keep the drones in line! The AHb drones know the virgin queens of Weavers are off limits! I have seen plenty of hot and upset bees through the years. AHB is not a big deal to me but I can understand the concern of the townspeople. Grandfather clause or not they can rid the town of a nuisance with legislation. Reed Booth and I see AHB in the same humorous vein. A few reviews of his book from the cover: "Educational and just plain fun, I had a blast reading it!" ...Authors best friend " Brilliant and way cool!".. Authors sister "In my opinion the best bee book ever written" Author "I adored it! It tickled me all over" Author's wife With unbiased reviews like the above how can one resist purchasing the AHB book! Published and distributed by : Reed's Apiary Po. Box 658 Bisbee, Az 85603 Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:22:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: AHB attire In-Reply-To: <20051028.105931.9378.29895@webmail18.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "waldig@netzero.com" wrote:." On the other hand, when long time beekeepers report getting dozens of stings while picking berries some 40-50 ft away from the hives, that's a new development for sure and reason for concern." When the only thing one has is the stated experience of an individual, without any physical evidence, then all one has is assumption and conjecture. NO AHBs have been found to exist in New York. If anyone think otherwise, show me the evidence. Multiple stings from a distant, aggressive hive do not AHBs make. I had an experience with a beekeeper one time. He was riding with me in my truck. When we entered the yard, he said to stop 100 feet from his hives. As I was getting out of the truck Jim tryed to tell me to put my veil on before I got out. Too late. As soon as I was out of the truck I got hit several times in the chest and a couple of times in the head before I could get my veil on. Jim insisted on checking the two tallest and meanest colonies in the yard first. I agreed, 'cause I wanted to get the most uncomfortable one done first so we could enjoy the rest of the yard. There was no thought that they were AHB, they were just aggressive. While at school in Wooster, Ohio! there were two colonies of bees in a corn field behiond my house that were so mean that the farmer hadn't touched them for years. I believe that these may have been German Black Bees. Smallish and very defensive and pretty good producers. I'd still rather have bees that can be worked in short sleeves and w/out a veil on those hot sunny days when the nectar flow is on. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:42:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Julie Mayer Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Saudi grad student I know (attends U of Kansas at Laurence) wants to buy some Sidr Honey of Hadramaut, Yemen. He wonders if anyone has dealt with the "World Harvest" retailer in Colombia, MO? Does anyone know of another retailer who carries this honey? He says a southern region of Saudi Arabia, (Aseer) which borders Yemen has a similar type of honey though not quite as rare. He says it's value is more for its perceived medicinal qualities than as a food source. John Mayer West-Central MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Fredericksen" Subject: Re: [BEE-L] The most expensive honey in the world? Here's a claimed "most expensive honey world" http://www.worldsfoods.com/view.asp?prod_ID=2884 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 22:01:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Allen Dick's Diary & Other's Too Hi Allen and Everyone, Thank you for your offer of a free website. I have chased different free websites as they often change the type of services offered without notice leaving me and my code hi and dry. I had one service that would unilaterally cancel my account for no stipulated reason. I established another account, and in a couple of months it was history also. My website started out as an experiment to learn more about the web and html programming. And as a means of not continually repeating myself on the lists. I don't know how many times I've re-written the code to comply with a new set of server conditions or interaction of my code and some forced advertisements. It's been at least a half dozen times. Each time I've thought about scrapping the effort involved with my website. Toss in a few personal problems and maintaining a beekeeping website can become a very low priority. So, I would recommend that everyone copy any info that would be needed in the future. And I would also recommend that if you have something to share, you let others know about it. So they can copy it :>) Beekeepers interests change. When I first started working the bees on the internet, I was a commercial beekeeper involved with thousands of hives and semiloads of honey. I ate, talked and slept bees. Today, I keep just a few hives that easily sustain themselves with almost no beekeeper input. And I don't even own an extractor. After 5 years away from commercial beekeeping, I can go about a month without thinking a single commercial beekeeping thought! :>) And on another note, list members should appreciate the effort, time and money that list owners and moderators put in for everyone's benefit. I don't know of a single list that isn't a labor of love. None of them make any money. And lists can disappear just like websites can. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 23:01:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Re: Blueberry Pollination (Was: SHB in New England (Was: Winter ventilation for nucs.)) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > Years ago we used to be in the blueberry business and still have some > acres > of wild blueberries growing. Honey bees will pollinate them if they have > to. Bumblebees are much happier to do so. To get honey bees to > successfully > pollinate blueberries, the growers typically put in 2-3 hives per acre. > With that many bees and not much else to forage on, they do a passable > job. > > George- > The serious, for income, growers around here will hire colonies for their berries, anywhere from 1-4/acre. Some years, not predictable, bumble bee populations will be very low and any pollination available is welcome. Some times the honeybees will only appear to visit the flowers in any numbers for a short while any given day, probably a function of the berry nectar excretion relative to what ever else is available. Alden Marshall Hudson, NH (So. central NH) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 04:02:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Victors Subject: Re: beekeeping editorial (was AHB attire) Hi Keith and all, Since you called me out I thought that I would reply as best that I can. A number of things that you addressed about me and our beekeepers association are misleading to the readers on this list and paint Alaskan beekeepers with a very broad brush. Members of our association up here are varied in their experience as well as their methods of beekeeping. Many of us do keep bees through the winter, contrary to your implications. As with any group of people with a common interest the purpose of the organization is to provide support, education, and companionship. To dictate ones point of view to others as to the one proper method to do anything only serves to offend and alienate folks. The subject of keeping bees year round has been the topic of many discussions. Small hive beetle has also been the topic of several newsletters, meetings, and is included in our annual beekeeping classes. Members are aware of this pest and are not quite as sleepy as you would have folks think. Steve Victors Big Lake, Alaska Southcentral Alaska Beekeepers Association -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 09:52:20 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: German black bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Murray McGregor wrote: > 2. They are generally not small bees. Perhaps you have a local ecotype > there that is small enough to get in the louvres, but here they would be > the bees least likely to get in there. I refrained from posting in the first place, because the description of the black bees being 'small' ruled out AMM as a possibility, but there is a small form of AMM that occurs very rarely, certainly less than one colony in 500 and probably a good deal rarer than that. I have come across a couple of examples myself and Beo Cooper talked to me about a few examples in the Lincolnshire area of UK. In general this small strain has some sort of problem and may only be just a degenerate form. I have seen identical degenerate bees that were derived from Buckfast bees. The small form is so rare that it would be impossible to give behavioural characteristics, but they could not be described as aggressive. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 11:49:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Hungarian Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone know or have any data to share on honey production in Hungary? A friend of mine said that she had read a statement that said that Hungary produces more honey than Canada. Can anyone substantiate that statement? I would have thought that Canada would produce more than Hungary, but what do I know? --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:01:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: error MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I made an error, the address of the insurance agents that sell policies = for apiaries is at 1-800 554-8059, 10 Obed Trail Old Saybrook Ct. = 06475 The number in the earlier message turns out to be for a christmas = tree growers associationl. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:38:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: What is a "statistically significant" Increase in Stinging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> I have to wonder at what a "statistically significant" increase in >>> stinging deaths would be? It rather depends upon whether you are one of the statistics. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:35:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AHB Attire Comments: cc: kenlia@btinternet.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So what has AHB become them, the new nomenclature or simplistic word for nothingmore then hot bees, as aggressive bees doesn't ketch public opinion anymore? If this being true, then the now similar German Black bees could be said to be AHBs, Ken Hoare, whom some on this List remember, on a trip to the US of A took a detour to Mexico specifically to encounter AHBs (I have known him for years and have never questioned his insanity). He reported that the ones he encountered were no worse than some of the hot colonies we routinely manage in the UK. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:24:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Drumming bees out.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waldemar >>Place the new box above the old with a 'bridge' so that the bees can walk uphill from one to the other. Drum on the lower box... What percentage of bees actually come up? And, what's of greatest interest to me, did the queen come up as well? Virtually all of them. Yes. The movement of the bees, once they get the idea, is not dissimilar to a swarm being hived in traditional manner. Normally when driving bees the original hive is inverted but I have used the technique when driving a colony that had built about 5 combs on a branch of a tree in the open air into a skep without movng the combs. Traditionally skep beekeepers would use a set of 'driving irons' which came in sets of 3. One was a skewer to fix the two skeps together at one point (the bridge I mentioned in the earlier mail), the lower being the one containing the colony inverted and supported in a bucket or similar (an upturned 3 legged milking stool would do as well). The other two irons were shaped like the staples one uses for attaching pieces of paper. The long centre section would be a short foot (Dave Cushman will tell you what this is in metric) and the prongs maybe a couple of inches. They were used to support the leading edge of the upper skep and keep it separate by a decent distance from the lower like a yawning mouth. Originally they would probably have been made by the local blacksmith in exchange for a piece of honeycomb. Nowadays using modern technology one can simply redesign a wire coat hanger or two. As it happens, I spent today at our local College of Agriculture where they had an Apple Day and the beekeepers had a corner where we had a dislay on pollination and an observation hive, candle rolling (a money spinner at 50 pence a time) and a couple of skep makers. One of the skep makers needed a break so I took over from her for a while and then passed it on to a an artist from the stall next door who had been watching. The techniques are easy to learn and it is a gentle therapeutic process of the sort that Trevor Weatherhead would appreciate while listening to a test match on the radio. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 07:16:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: What is a "statistically significant" Increase in Stinging In-Reply-To: <54.4fb03edf.309561dd@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:38 PM 10/29/05 EDT, you wrote: >>>> I have to wonder at what a "statistically significant" increase in >>>> stinging deaths would be? > >It rather depends upon whether you are one of the statistics. Heh.. rather! As the author of the above question, I am compelled to offer a bit of an explanation, somewhat after the fact, as to why I asked it: Basically, I just don't trust statisticians any farther than I can throw them, it's that simple and I thank my father for this attitude. He used to say "figures don't lie, but liars figure" and he had pretty much the same attitude toward economists. I've expanded my skepticism to include politicians, lawyers, and insurance agents, to mention a few. You can tell when they're lying, their lips are moving! That said, I'm a firm believer in the scientific method, real data analysis, and rational conclusions based on pertinent facts. I just happen to believe that most people have an agenda if not a vested interest and one has to be very careful in accepting their conclusions on a matter simply because they have a title after their name. I have little tolerance for statistical analysis outside the realm of pure science. This is as much a political, social, and/or business related issue (pick one!) as it is a scientific one. The answer to the question "is there a statistically significant increase in stinging deaths?" would depend entirely upon who was asking it, and who was answering it, and in comparison to what: death by lightning? alligators? death by car? I'm sure there is sufficient data to argue the case either way. For me, there is no question about it. The answer is yes. There have been some good answers to the original question, in particular Allen Dick put a lot of thought into his response, but Chris's simple perspective, to which I'm replying now, most closely parallels my own feelings on the matter: It does rather depend on whether you're one of the statistics :) I don't think there'd be much consolation for the relatives of someone who died from an AHB stinging incident in being told that the death of their loved one was regretable, but "not statistically significant". Similarly, being reminded that "flying is the safest way to travel" is not all that comforting if you are sitting in a plane about to crash. It may be true. It's not relevant. So, I feel the question is really moot and we should move on to the other issues of having AHB in our midst. It really doesn't matter to me if there is a statistically significant increase in stinging deaths. I believe there WILL be (already is) an increase of AHB in our feral bee population, those bees WILL be more aggressive, the incidence of stinging incidents WILL increase (already has), and some number of those incidents WILL result in death (already have) whether they are deemed statistically significant or not. This is just common sense, a prediction based upon an understanding of the traits of AHB and the ramifications of having a feral population of them in our country. Sometimes you just gotta go with what you believe :) George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 06:59:03 -0500 Reply-To: Buckner Lewis Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Buckner Lewis Subject: Re: AHB attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was no great surprise when the announcement was made that AHB was in Florida. The big secret had been out among beekeepers or Inspectors for several years, but the general public did not know. The AHB was being trapped in Jacksonville, Tampa and Port Evergaldes for years..I just believe the Agriculture Department decided it best to go public with an official announcement before they were embarrassed by the media. A great public relations coup IMHO. With or without inspections they came and will continue to come. William Lewis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 10:59:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Julie Mayer Subject: Re: What is a "statistically significant" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My favorite observation about statistics is this. It is a statistical fact that the average person on earth has one ovary and one testicle. John Mayer -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:00:22 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Keeping Bees in Alaska with Love MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steve,=20 Good to hear from you and thank you for replying. > > I have been trying to get the SABA members and other beekeepers who = only have bees for harvesting honey in the summer. > >=20 > association are misleading to the readers on this list and paint = Alaskan > beekeepers with a very broad brush. > Sorry, if you misunderstood here on this but the quote from me that I = was painting the broad brush on was "SABA members and other beekeepers = who only have bees for harvesting honey in the summer". If you could = keep this quote and part of the sentence in the context of the sentence, = I was referring to those beekeepers up here who killing their bees in = the fall intentionally and only keep them for the harvest of honey = without the regard of the bees life and respect of the bees life. I was = not referring to members of SABA and other beekeepers who keep bees with = respect and are working their bees with the good and righteous = intentions of keeping them year round as the term beekeeping would = imply. I know there are many members who are keeping bees this way and = also not with any set method. This is good but there are those who are = killing bees that just may provide material for improving genetics and = winter-ability of a stock of bees in our great state of Alaska. If I can = keep bees through winter up here with no wrap and no feeding sugar syrup = then I know anyone with the true desire to keep bees up here can also do = it wrapping and feeding if done with certain criteria in mind. There is = no one way to keep bees and I never said that there is. > Members of our association up here > are varied in their experience as well as their methods of beekeeping. > Many of us do keep bees through the winter, contrary to your > implications. This I am very aware of. That is the same everywhere you go in the world = where bees are kept. The only real difference is up here it is TAUGHT = that it is OK to not winter if one does not want to and in nearly (not = everywhere) anyplace else in the world beekeepers would not even think = of killing bees or else they would not be keeping bees. My implications = are that there are so called beekeepers up here that are killing their = bees when in reality they should be TAUGHT, as I am doing with many = beekeepers up here, that bees should be kept up here regardless of = experience. By the way, this is how a new beekeeper would learn and gain = experience to winter, by being taught to do so. I get many beekeepers = contacting me to learn how to keep bees, and for those who inquire as to = how to kill bees I tell them I am not teaching how to kill bees and do = not speak of these methods. It is the implication of beekeepers thinking = it is OK to kill bees that is wrong. My so called implications are only = affecting those who are guilty of killing their bees intentionally = without benefit to improving methods and stock. Anyone up here that are = keeping bees understand the implications of killing bees. > As with any group of people with a common interest the > purpose of the organization is to provide support, education, and > companionship.=20 > Well this was not the mission statement I remember but this is good if = the support is for KEEPING bees, education for KEEPING bees and = companionship to those who are KEEPING bees. When these attributes are = implicated to support killing bees and people are educated it is OK to = kill bees, and their is companionship with those killing bees, this = hurts me and sickens me as a keeper of bees. It hurts me because bees = deserve a better life than only a life for one that only wants the honey = and does not think it necessary to do the work to keep the poor bees = alive. If it is a personal choice, killing them to me is a poor choice = for the bees sake. > To dictate ones point of view to others as to the one > proper method to do anything only serves to offend and alienate folks. > I never said or implied that there is only one proper method to keep = bees. I may have expressed that I think it is wrong to kill bees because = this is not keeping them. Like I tell a lot of beekeepers up here that = want to learn to keep bees "I do not care how you keep bees as long as = you do". I have lots of friends in beekeeping up here including some = members of SABA and we exchange our knowledge and experience in = beekeeping so we may improve our individual methods. There is no one set = way to keep bees as there is also no one set method of killing them, but = keeping bees is different than killing them. If advocating keeping bees = is alienating folks, I would think it is those folks who think it is OK = to kill bees. Also if it alienates folks to teach them that it is not OK = to kill bees then there is probably no hope in reaching these type folk = anyway and they are not my concern. I am teaching beekeeping and = reaching out to those who want to learn methods of keeping bees not = killing them. On the other hand I do have lots to teach those folks and = beekeepers who think bees can not be kept up here. Where they got that = mind set is anyone's guess, I would think they either heard it some = place or was taught it by someone, go figure. This has a bad implication = to the public and new beekeepers. In my opinion I am not alienating = anyone up here who wants to learn to keep bees. So Steve, do you think we as beekeepers should embrace the idea that it = is OK to kill bees and that teaching methods of not wintering is OK? I = certainly do not embrace this concept or idea and will not teach it = period. In my opinion, the leaders of beekeepers should be teaching and = encouraging how to keep bees not the opposite. To teach anything else is = ludicrous and failing to lead those who want to learn how to keep bees. I think that killing bees should not even be an option and that teaching = that it is OK to do so is counter productive to the mission of support, = education, and companionship concerning keeping bees. This is not one = method but one concept, that of keeping bees period. Many new beekeepers = give up trying to winter because there is not enough support or = education.=20 > The subject of keeping bees year round has been the topic of many > discussions. > This is GREAT, I will come to discuss my methods and progress just about = anytime with enough advanced notice. I am always willing to discuss = keeping bees year round. I might be able to give some insight on this = subject, I do have a passion in keeping bees year round with my main = focus at this time being wintering bees and breeding from the best of = the wintered bees. Please do not let my alienation keep those who wish = to learn wintering and breeding methods from learning the many ways to = accomplish this. We do need to start concerting an effort in this = direction. Soon I am going to visit the Peninsula beekeepers to discuss = this subject in the near future. Winter is an excellent time of year for = learning, lets learn. > Small hive beetle has also been the topic of several newsletters, > meetings, and is included in our annual beekeeping classes. > The only way to keep them out is to slow down the importing of package = bees or eliminate them all together, once we have them it will be to = late to have come up with a better solution to keep them out. The best = way to slow down the importing is to start keeping bees over winter. To = do this proper wintering methods need taught and breeding a hardy stock = needs implicated and executed. > Members are > aware of this pest and are not quite as sleepy as you would have folks > think. >=20 If they are not ready to do what is necessary to slow this pest from = entering our state then in my opinion they are not wide awake yet. = Beekeepers need to be taught to winter bees and that it is not OK to = kill them but instead best to winter them and improve our bee stock for = wintering.=20 It can be done and the more involved the faster it will become a = reality. We can not support and stand to be wasting resources for = improvements when killing bees that may hold the genetics for a quicker = solution. Mites are one thing and SHB, well we just do not need it here. = So lets work towards stopping its movement into our state. Steve, we should be working together not apart, lets get on the same = page. So far you have got me misunderstood by your own admission. We = need to start keeping bees as a community of beekeepers and not killing = them period, this has nothing to do with methods of keeping bees. If = bees are being killed this is not keeping bees. This is the page we need = to be on, beekeeping!!!. No alienation intended but a coming together = instead for the sake of beekeeping and for the sake of the bees up here = in Alaska. How else can this be understood? For the love of honey bees, . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:11:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHB Attire In-Reply-To: <9f.6afe9099.3095612c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well Hi Chris: If this being true, then the now similar German Black bees could be said to be AHBs, Reply: Could very well be this, as it was proported that AHB breed true and if scuts, then, other colorations are what? Also, if technically only one of the several matings could,may,might be AHB then and could be picked out by coloration looking like Scuts, then if 90% is other, why doesn't the major non-AHB dictate then what it is called for a hive make-up? Also, if Australia is screening out with DNA like mentioned here on BEE-L aggressive gene markers for bees being imported there, then are they zeroing into Scuts or anything with that gene for again a generic nomenclature that anything now hot is AHB or non-descript? So if any hot bee can be a stinging incident, then why not just say by "Aggressive Bees period" as there have always been aggressive hot stinging incidents with every race/strain. Respectfully submitted Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://group.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 04:36:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB Attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >So what has AHB become them, the new nomenclature or simplistic word for nothingmore then hot bees, as aggressive bees doesn't ketch public opinion anymore? The bottom line is simple. Rattlesnakes & poison spiders are around and so is AHB in Arizona. In Australia the beekeepers tolerate a half dozen of the most venomous snakes & spiders in the world. The spiders like to nest in the hive handholds & the snakes under the hives. Has not and will not stop beekeeping but people need to be aware. If thinking of moving to Arizona or becoming a winter snowbird this publication is free and designed to provide information: http://phoenix.about.com/cs/desert/a/killerbees01.htm Only eight confirmed deaths from AHB at time of the newsletter. Interesting facts about the USDA in Arizona: http://bees.ucr.edu/ahb.spread.htm On June 30, 1995 or over ten years ago the Arizona Department of Agriculture (ADA) *ended* its AHB program due to lack of funding. 95 AHB colonies (with 28 involved in stinging incidents) were logged the last year of the program which was triple the number from the year before. The ADA no longer traces the establishment of AHB Aaron said he was OK with AHB discussion and Dee keeps saying AHB is a non issue in Arizona so I guess the thread will not die. The bottom line is we have no clue as to what the establishment of AHb is now after ten years of not keeping a watch on the problem by the ADA. Would not the monitor of AHb in Arizona provide valuable information for California or Florida USDA ? has the situation improved or become worse? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:19:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: AHB Attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know about anyone except myself, but if AHB's arrive in my area, I will kiss beekeeping goodbye. I have worked my bees without a veil, gloves or coveralls for about 25 years. I get stung quite often as I work them. I will not take any chances with hot bees. Normally I get stung on the nose, ears and hands. These are not very bad, just 5 or so each trip. Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:52:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell Comments: To: Dee Lusby Quote: DNA research has come forward a great deal in that time frame also, and we now know that DNA changes eversoslightly with each mating. So I would have to say that since I firmly believe that Environment (which includes cell size)is a catalist that then changes both diet and breeding, then our hives' genetics have changed just by us changing cell size. Reply: Here is an example of how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The above statement uses scientific terms without understanding the ideas that are *supposed* to go with them. The author may "believe" that changes in diet and cell size will alter the bees' DNA -- but that hardly makes it true. Some examples: Does our author believe that if plasic surgery Michael Jackson succeeds in making him look like Liz Taylor, then his children will look like Liz Taylor, too? How about dogs: suppose you want a short haired Collie. Will giving the parents a short haircut produce short-haired offspring? Maybe you have to shave successive generations ... On the other hand, it has been shown that some species respond readily to selection. These species are called: "variable". Examples are dogs, of course, and chickens, pigeons, etc. Even humans are highly variable. But there has to be controlled mating and there has to be variability in the trait. You can raise dogs that are large, small, etc. but not dogs with hands like monkeys. If I wanted to raise small bees, I would either: 1) use regular sized comb and measure the bees to find which ones are genetically smaller. If you use smaller cells, you will create an environmental effect that would mask any real genetic variation. Or 2) use bees that are already small: African Bees. I suspect this is what they have down there in Arizona. I am sorry to bring this up again, but people should think about the implications of a statement like "Environment changes breeding". It is not only unscientific, -- it's anti-scientific. Which is fine, be anti-science. But then you cannot turn around refer to changes in the "DNA" . Isis Glass -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:09:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB Attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have worked my bees without a veil, gloves or coveralls for about 25 years. Do you use a smoker? >I get stung quite often as I work them. I think each persons situation is different. My help would never dream of entering a bee yard without the above protection. I am kind of like Lionel. A few stings are not a big deal. For those new beekeepers reading the two times you normally see stinging is when the hive is first opened and if kept open too long. Do not ignore the sting on your bee suit. You did not get the sting yourself but the sting has left an alarm odor. Smoke the suit area of the sting. Without being able to cover up the alarm odor for those not using smoke the stings will continue to come (why wouldn't they?). If you work without gloves and do not mask the alarm odor the bees will continue to sting in the same general area. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:45:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: SWAPS and AWE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Good Morning: Bob stated: "Researchers are held in awe at their presentations by the average beekeeper." Kind words, but I'm not sure that they're true. I'm afraid that more often, (researchers) use so much jargon that its like listening to a speaker from another country -- not much gets through to the audience. Its not awe, its incomprehension. Also, as to the question about what a SWAG is. SWEG and the alternate term SWAG are acronyms, often used when the data falls short or is being pushed too far -- SWEG stands for Scientific Wild-Eyed Guess, and SWAG is a bit more vulgar. Cheers Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:08:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: AHB Attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use a smoker, and Bob is right, if they sting the suit, the alarm odor is there, so smoke the area. Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:23:25 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AHB attire Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>When the only thing one has is the stated experience of an individual, without any physical evidence... I've gotten the word from other people - in Ct. and elsewhere in the Northeast - who have been ordering queens from the AHB belt for years and have now started to see very hot hives every once in a while that were impossible to work. This is hearsay for sure and I am not saying AHB is now permanently present in the population, especially the feral population. But one needs to be careful. No matter how you slice it, whether it's queens from AHB areas or hives coming back from pollination in California, there is REAL possibility for AHB genes to get here. Whether they can overwinter here or not is yet to be seen. >>Jim insisted on checking the two tallest and meanest colonies in the yard first. The Long Islanders Beekeepers Club often holds their meetings at members' apiaries and we go through hives. I personally have not seen colonies as mean as you describe but know that EHB colonies can be mean as well. >>...bees that can be worked in short sleeves and w/out a veil on those hot sunny days when the nectar flow is on. I am with you, Mark! We finally had a nice day yesterday - after 2 weeks of no-fly weather - with temps in the upper 60's. It looked like the bees were swarming! By the evening, I could smell the golden rod aroma in the apiary. Bees were as calm as can be when I inspected them in the mid-afternoon. :) Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:28:30 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Drumming bees out.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris, Sorry for beating this horse to death... You mentioned that virtually all the bees and the queen respond to drumming and vacate the cavity. They leave the brood behind? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:21:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Succeeding With Small Cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 31/10/05 14:22:10 GMT Standard Time, glass_isis@YAHOO.COM writes: <> I'm not sure this oft-repeated idea is entirely correct. If you want to select for a particular characteristic, say small size, create conditions which favour it over large size; that's the basis of natural selection. Isn't it likely that small cells favour small bees, and thus select for a smaller, genetically somewhat different, strain? This isn't a matter of introducing a new gene, rather one of changing the ratio of the alleles which are already present. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:53:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? & Fynbos Honey I called the World Market store this morning and spoke to the owner. In addition to producing varietal honey, I collect unusual honey . My first concern was the water content of the Sidr honey from Hadramaut. IMO no matter how unusual or fine tasting a honey is it MUST have a low water content. Anyhow over the phone he appeared to be from the Middle East and was quite sincere and helpful. He referred me to his son who orchestrated the sourcing of this honey from a region in Yemen. I will be purchasing some of this honey and report back to you on my experience. BTW does anybody have a source (retail or wholesale qty) of South African honey from the Fynbos region? There is a gentleman online http://users.iafrica.com who produces such honey. I have never been able to purchase any from him in any quantity. How about any other unusual or interesting honeys from around the world? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:33:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? & Fynbos Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 31/10/05 18:25:34 GMT Standard Time, amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM writes: <> The most unusual honeys I've heard of come occasionally from the Cadbury's factory a few miles away. I've heard of people having crops of Mars bar or Turkish Delight honey, but unfortunately it doesn't fetch much of a price. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:49:34 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "scot.mcpherson" Organization: Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: AHB Attire Comments: To: Bob Harrison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit bob, I don't use a smoker, and I only invested in a veil when my colonies exceeded 30 in number because I needed to work them a little faster than previously allowed with less than 30 hives. I bought a smoker, its in storage for just in case, but I used it once and realized the bees remain much more relaxed when I do not use it. Plus there is some demand for my honey being smokeless. Then again, I don't the smoker anyway. I keep bees in shorts and teeshirt only with veil now, but not prior to this last year. the worst stinging I got was when I moved my hives to a farm prior to my moving to iowa 2 months ago. The screen came off the entrance enroute and there was a significant beard of highly defensive bees. I only had one veil and so gave it to my friend, I threw a blanket over the front of the hive and carried it to its new spot. I got stung in excess of 50 times in the legs and got one right at the tip of my nose when I pulled the blanket and had to run knowing that nose sting was a bad way to get hit there again. Not a lot fun, but I didn't get hurt. This was an extreme example though. I don't tolerate bees I can't work in a t-shirt unless the stinging was my own damned fault. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:24:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? & Fynbos Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >He referred me to his son who orchestrated the sourcing of this honey from a region in Yemen. I will be purchasing some of this honey and report back to you on my experience. The unique taste is similar to fructose my customers which used to live in Yemen tell me. The reason the Middle East store at the old Historic Market sells Purity Honey blend which is mostly fructose. Many of his customers turn their nose up at pure honey as most honey sold in the Yemen area is mixed with syrup. Terry Brown (Browns Bee Australia) told me the same thing as he used to ship many pallets of packages into the area and has sampled the honey. I am not saying the above to be smart but only adding what my customers have said and the manager of the Middle East store. Please report your observations! Bob " If you had never tasted pure honey but only honey cut with syrup would you turn your nose up at pure honey as tasting funny?" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:32:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: S Wilson Subject: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My info from the archives tells me HFCS 55 is 85% sugar. Would a 60# pail of HFCS 55 equal 51# sugar? 60# HFCS 55 x.85 = 51# If not What is the equivalency? And what is the formula? I'm trying to compare buying pails of HFCS 55 to bags of sugar. Right now LSI says sugar is going for $25/50# bag ($.50/#) !! By the pail HFCS 55 is $17.17 for small batches (plus $190 shipping) and $12.50 per pail for a truckload (684 pails) delivered (shipping included). Last time I got two short filled pails. At the grocers it's still $0.369/#. I'm willing to order if I get enough takers. I'm in Mid Virginia. Advice? Opinions? Help? Susi Wilson SWilson1@HSC.edu http://VirginiaCountryLife@blogspot.com 434-392-6979; 866-766-6980 P.O. Box 98, Rice, VA 23966 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:47:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? & Fynbos Honey In-Reply-To: <002c01c5de59$0fd1f200$16bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recently received a small can of honey, a little more than 1 LB, from a new friend from Greece. I believe he said that he was from the island of Kalymnos. I was told that people take a teaspoon of this honey every morning as an elixir. Mr. Charlie said that this honey is processed in a special way and that it is very valuable. I'm sorry to say that I'm not sure if he said 20 Euros or 200 Euros per can. I have heard that the Euro is not much different in value from the US Dollar, so I think it more likely that he said 20 Euros in value. This honey is thicker than most North American honeys that I have tasted. Is it the processing or the flaural source? Anybody know? Some of us have speculated that some sort of ground cover would be responsible for this honey's flavor and color, of course. But what is it? The taste is pleasant and I wouldn't use it on anything other than a plain bread or cracker or tablespoon as instructed. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:05:08 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? & Fynbos Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In a message dated 31/10/05 18:25:34 GMT Standard Time, > amesfarm@HOTMAIL.COM > writes: > > < world?>> Honey from rubber in S. India. If you drop the jars they do not break - just bounce. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:51:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Varroa/Pollen Traps (most of the time mites are not the bee legs!) and isn't it also true that most of the time mites are found on nurse bees as opposed to finding them on field bees? pollen traps won't do much in regards to stripping mites from nurse bees. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:58:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL BOEHM Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? & Fynbos Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How about any other unusual or interesting honeys from around the world? > I was in australia recently and had some Black Bark Tree honey. It looked like tar but was very floral and a bit astringent in taste. Wish I could get some here in the USA. AL BOEHM COLUMBUS, NORTH CAROLINA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:59:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? & Fynbos Honey In-Reply-To: <002901c5de77$08908290$1702a8c0@terminator> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How about Lima Bean Honey? Ever had that? I hadn't until just recently. AL BOEHM wrote:> How about any other unusual or interesting honeys from around the world? > --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:06:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Varroa/Pollen Traps In-Reply-To: <200510312351.j9VNgZuQ012059@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:51 PM 10/31/05 -0500, you wrote: > >and isn't it also true that most of the time mites are found on nurse >bees as opposed to finding them on field bees? I've been wondering about this but I haven't found anything stating the mite's preferences one way or the other. Does anyone know of a source that covers this? George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:37:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Far North Overwintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As Steve pointed out, bees can and are overwintered here by some as is done in the Scandinavian countries, but due as much to our long winter as anything else it remains a challenge. In the past couple of decades varroa has only added to the problem, and now we read that the SHB is seen surviving winters in northern areas of the Lower 48. I’m afraid that pest will eventually be up here with us too. Oh well. Most new beekeepers in Alaska are quite enthusiastic about keeping bees year round, but simply *wanting* to overwinter bees won’t make it so. Reality soon hits them squarely in the face, often in the first winter. It’s very discouraging to anyone, especially a new beekeeper, to put the time, effort, and money into trying to overwinter only to find, come spring, a mass of dead bees in their hives. Many simply find it easier on themselves (and, for that matter, probably their bees, too) to buy new packages each spring. No one relishes killing their bees. In fact most who don’t overwinter try their damndest to give their bees away to anyone who wants to overwinter at season’s end. For those who pooled their orders last spring, with shipping, the cost of a four pound package with queen came to $80.00 U.S. Some of those who bought bees on their own paid even more. It seems unlikely it will be any less expensive this spring. Who knows, maybe economics and the shortage of bees will force beekeepers up here to struggle more against the winter as the Canadians did who, as I understand, began with new packages every season too before the border closing. It’s just plain and simple that it isn’t an easy task to winter bees in Alaska. I’d still like to see some of the actual numbers from ongoing hives up here that have truly successfully overwintered for several winters in a row in addition to the numbers of those that end up as dead outs. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:28:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Varroa/Pollen Traps In-Reply-To: <200510312351.j9VNgZuQ012059@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My original question was posed to find out if a device could be built and installed in the hive itself to strip the varroa off of the bees. I wasn't asking to see if pollen traps could be used for this purpose, but to find out if the screens or wholes that the bees pass through would strip the varroa off. Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:16:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Howe Subject: exotic honey (was "the Most Expensive Honey........) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few weeks ago a Bee-L participant asked about argan honey. This was in the NY Times last week.=20 It's about the argan tree. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/27/international/africa/27goat.html?oref=3D= login. Joh Howe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:37:26 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Keeping Bees in Alaska with Love MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dick, > In fact most who don't > overwinter try their damndest to give their bees away to anyone who wants to overwinter at > season's end. > Unless this give away comes with frames and the brood nest sanctuary is left intact, where especially pollen frames have been left in place, the colonies will more or less be doomed. I teach that planning to overwintering starts in the spring as the bees begin to build up, this in fact is what the bees are actually doing. You can not plan on wintering after their chances of surviving has been destroyed by carelessness and mismanagement. A colony needs several things to winter, a race of bee that is well suited for local conditions, plenty of young bees (so the queen can never be caged like some beekeepers up here do during our one and only honey flow), Pollen stores (placed and arranged as the bees would have arranged them), honey stores above and beside the brood nest with cluster space dead center of the center of top box of empty cells (I weigh the hives and try to bring each hive up to 50 lbs. average net weight per deep box), Top insulation to keep condensation from for! ming above the cluster, More ventilation than one would think needed (Above or below but lots of it), Protection from pest, Varroa control (I am using small cells and breeding for tolerance), If you think you need protection from wind give it (I have learned that this is not as critical as some think), A location where the bees will not be disturbed and preferable with absolutely no beekeepers until Cleansing flights (up hear that is sometime in March usually. you know when cleansing flights have started by the staining in the snow in front of hives). The last one also is a good indication as to whether they are dead or alive but not always a dead give away. Some colonies wait longer to take cleansing flights and it is those colonies that wait that I like to see because it is those that wait that end up being my strongest colonies. There is not a whole lot to wintering colonies but one can not expect someone to take your bees in the fall up here and give the bees a fair chance of wintering in Alaska. Timing and coordination is very critical up here in our short season, even I would not invest in a doomed colony that someone else may have instigated doom to. > Who knows, maybe economics and the > shortage of bees will force beekeepers up here to struggle more against the winter as the > Canadians did who, as I understand, began with new packages every season too before the border > closing. > Our boarders probably will not close from the lower 48 states, so beekeepers need to make a conscious decision to do the right thing before it is to late and we continue to bring in pest and diseases. It would not be as much of a struggle to winter if we were all working together up here, teaching good sound wintering methods, breeding a local strain of bee, and our leaders in beekeeping would encourage wintering as the only option. I am doing all these parts just mentioned and in addition I will not sell package bees to anyone not working bees to keep them, I will not waste my efforts, my hard work, and genetic breeding on anyone killing bees in the fall. I say let them buy bees somewhere else if they want to not keep them, I am not out to make any big bucks selling package bees. I just want the bees I handle to have a fair chance of surviving. If beekeepers up here want to keep bees then they need to do what it takes to do it. Many things need to be done and breeding a bee! is one of them and we all need to take part in it. We need to come together up here to do it and not expect a hand full of us to do it for everyone else. The Canadians were forced to become better beekeepers but we Alaskans have a chance to do it consciously, Like you and I are doing Dick. What is beekeeping if it is not keeping bees alive? . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---