From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:36:29 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C62484B1 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEFvLI013111 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0511" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 819603 Lines: 19732 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 07:13:13 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? & Fynbos Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Berninghausen asked about Kalymnos honey: The source will be wild herbs on the mountains: http://www.kalymnos-isl.gr/webweaver/climb/eng/guide.html The hot, dry climate produces a honey with low moisture content. If it is marked 'honey' then EU regulations would not allow alteration by 'processing' - nor would any be needed. I suspect 20 euros is correct - and that sounds expensive enough to me. If Roger White is lurking he might have a view. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:24:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jo=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E3o?= Campos Subject: Re: AHB Attire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:19:21 -0600, Lionel wrote: >I don't know about anyone except myself, but if AHB's arrive in my area, I >will kiss beekeeping goodbye. I have worked my bees without a veil, gloves >or coveralls for about 25 years. I get stung quite often as I work them. I >will not take any chances with hot bees. Normally I get stung on the nose, >ears and hands. These are not very bad, just 5 or so each trip. That's right, Lionel, you wouldn't be able to work AHB without a suit, except in special occasions. But thrust me, wearing a full suit, with mask, boots and gloves does look much more unbearable than it actually is. Yes, we sweat a lot sometimes, but it's really no big deal. Probably, it takes some of the joy away, as some have pointed out, but yes, you may still sit aside the hive and watch the bees for as long time as you want (provide you don't disturb them). And you can give the hives exactly the same handling you're used to. And, believe me or not, you'd probably get far less stings than now - five stings is very rare for me in a 2-3 hours work. Those who think the main/only problem would be the end of the backyard beekeeping got it right, IMHO. That's what many of us Brazilians complain about - apiaries *must* be isolated from people and animals. And that means a larger area for each apiary, and preferably, a good barrier of woods between the bees and roads/houses/facilities. No urban beekeeping is possible. And that prevents beekeeping for a large amount of small land owners, which is really bad. Just my POV, of course. João Campos - AHBkeeper -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:17:00 +0200 Reply-To: pmcmahon@pnp.co.za Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter McMahon Organization: pnp.co.za Subject: Re: AHB Attire In-Reply-To: <200511011124.jA1B6E1u011099@listserv.albany.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 Gents > Those who think the main/only problem would be the end of the backyard > beekeeping got it right, No urban beekeeping is possible. And that > prevents beekeeping for a large amount of small land > owners, which is really bad. That is my biggest concern about working with the bees I do _ AM Capensis. My apiary is in the country 120 kms away and I only get to work my girls on the w/end. If I need/want to manipulate any hives I must go out on a Friday so I have at least 2 days to monitor and then I must leave them alone for a week, which can be worrying if you are re-queening. I can't do the work in my backyard even though I have my neighbors approval - it is just not responsible beekeeping and we have enough "urban legends" to contend with.Maximum sting count so far - @20 and that was removing a feral colony which I doubt anyone would do without protection no matter what bees you are handling. But, yes as you say Joao, one can still sit next to the hives and breath that wonderful sweetness that flows from the hives so long as you don't disturb the girls - pity I can't do it from my back door !! Maybe I need to move my back door ???? Regards Peter McMahon Western Cape South Africa Read our disclaimer at: http://www.picknpay.co.za/pnp/view/pnp/en/page5093? If you don't have web access, the disclaimer can be mailed to you on request. Disclaimer requests to be sent to it-security@pnp.co.za -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:24:23 +0200 Reply-To: pmcmahon@pnp.co.za Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter McMahon Organization: pnp.co.za Subject: Re: The most expensive honey in the world? & Fynbos Honey In-Reply-To: <00a201c5deb3$bf368260$a9702a50@office> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 Good Day I would not consider "Fynbos Honey" to be exotic or expensive honey. I would put it in the same bracket as any multi-floral honey as fynbos consists of over 20 000 different species of plant. I would imagine that fynbos owes it's "exotic" label due to the fact that fynbos is only found in the south western cape of South Africa. An interesting fact about fynbos - there are more species of fynbos on Table Mountain than there are species of all flora on the North American continent. Regards Peter McMahon Western Cape South Africa Read our disclaimer at: http://www.picknpay.co.za/pnp/view/pnp/en/page5093? If you don't have web access, the disclaimer can be mailed to you on request. Disclaimer requests to be sent to it-security@pnp.co.za -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 04:40:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: AHB Attire In-Reply-To: <200511011124.jA1B6E1u011099@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joao Campos, It's really nice to hear from someone with the experience that you have. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 07:17:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: AHB Attire Comments: To: pmcmahon@pnp.co.za MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >If I need/want to manipulate any hives I must go out on a Friday so I have at least 2 days to monitor and then I must leave them alone for a week, which can be worrying if you are re-queening. Please explain the capensis requeening. Do you ever use European queens for requeening? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 08:33:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Varroa/Pollen Traps In-Reply-To: <20051101022828.29324.qmail@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:28 PM 10/31/05 -0800, you wrote: >My original question was posed to find out if a device could be built and installed in the hive itself to strip the varroa off of the bees. My interest involves understanding the mite's host preference for the phoretic period of their life, with an eye towards possibly exploiting it as a means of thwarting the little buggers so my only question now is do varroa prefer nurse bees and if so, why? Oh, what the heck. At the risk of speculating without a basis in fact, my interest stems from a discussion on another forum about caging the queen as a means of maximizing honey production and the side effect that the break in brood rearing seems to have on the mite population. Simply depriving the mites of a brood cycle doesn't really explain the claimed effect on the mites to my satisfaction. Is that all there is, or does forcing all the nurse/house bees to become foragers for a while have something to do with it? I'd also be interested in hearing other people's experiences with caging the queen as a management technique and the effect it has on varroa. George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 08:05:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you live anywhere close to Chattanooga, Tennessee you can buy sugar for $40.00 for a 55 gallon barrel. Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:19:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Isis, I agree with everything you say which is basically that Lamarckian = evolution does not occur. However. In some cases it does, at the single = celled organism level. That's not my point. I tried to imagine how cell size could affect genetics of honey bees. = We know that the hive contains a number of sisters among the worker = caste. There is a sort of competition between them in deciding what eggs = get eaten and which larva are chosen to make queen cells out of; also in = which queen cells are torn down and which make it to maturity.=20 IF (and I admit it's a BIG IF) One strain of those sisters adapts = better to the small cell environment and gains an edge in its = representation in the colony, the following may occur. This strain of = worker will enlarge their numbers because less eggs will be eaten with = their genes and they will be more likely to choose the next queen which = will nudge the gene pool in the direction of small cell. It's a somewhat = fragile theory but evolution has eternity. Anyway, my job is over if I can stimulate thought. Dick Marron Thinking that the very last thing a fish would discover is water. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:02:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <0d2701c5deef$575d75e0$fb309440@drivec> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Marron wrote: > This strain of > worker will enlarge their numbers because less eggs will be eaten > with their genes and they will be more likely to choose the next > queen which will nudge the gene pool in the direction of small cell. > It's a somewhat fragile theory but evolution has eternity. Please refer to all that Dennis has done in this regard, especially his findings on the actual sizes of bees both on large and small cells. Dennis' small cell bees are not uniform in size nor are the cells. His experiments reflect the "natural" state of bees, IMHO, which is they are not tied to a single size. They accommodate naturally. Ascribing a genetic change in the bees in essence says that you can go from a set DNA sequence to a new one in two generations and flip right back in the same amount of time. And the queen is changing the sequence! Even selecting for something already in their DNA makeup in two generations is a bit much. My guess is it is just what Dennis saw. They will start with what they have but like small cell in the winter and larger when more food is available. Less food=smaller bee. More food=larger bee. That is consistent with what we do see in nature and around our own midsection. I think we are trying to go places here that we do not need to go. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:48:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell quote: Ascribing a genetic change in the bees in essence says that you can go from a set DNA sequence to a new one in two generations and flip right back in the same amount of time. And the queen is changing the sequence! reply: This is what I have been saying all along. To get *actual* changes in honey bee types requires a very long time and a high degree of isolation. Evolution did not create the Italians and the Carniolans from the same ancestors *overnight*. They developed in separate regions and were presumably isolated geographically for many thousands of years. Now, breeding attempts to accelerate the process of differentiation, but you can only do so much. It may take decades instead of thousands of years, but you won't get far in a few generations. Furthermore, honey bees naturally outcross in order to prevent inbreeding. When people do line breeding with instrumental insemination, the first thing to go is brood viability. I have seen "pure" SMR lines that were so weak they couldn't build up past three or four combs. Maybe they didn't have mites! -- but they were useless except as breeders (and almost useless for that). Researchers have to keep on outcrossing the lines to prevent loss of vigor; but when they do, they lose much of the progress they made in developing the trait. Maybe someone will find a gene for mite resistance, who knows? Genetic engineering ratchets the whole evolution thing up another notch. But I doubt the bee industry is interested in the bad publicity they would get if they started raising GM bees. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:24:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Honey Sweetened Cranberrie Sauce Comments: To: rip bechmann , George Fergusson , Isis Glass , greg&deb kalicin , Beekeepers Organic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone have a tried and true Cranberry Sauce Recipe that uses honey rather than cane sugar? I just got back from picking up a truck load of bees from a cranberry bed near by here. I'm starting to gather my colonies for their trip south. It feels good to get some bee work done. The cranberry bed is in a pretty wet place, so I have to get the bees out when it's not raining. So don't you know as soon as I got to the store to buy fuel for the truck and the Bobcat, it started raining. Fortunately for me, not too hard. The grower was there too. Which was a great help because he made sure I didn't get stuck. It's also a good thing that I got them today as the grower is leaving tomorrow and his gate would have been locked. Perhaps until spring. He lives in Massechusetts and I live in Northern New York. So the grower got his yard rent and I got my bees with a bonus of 4 or 5 lbs. of berries. So, again, Any cranberry recipies out there in the computer world? --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:32:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Honey Sweetened Cranberrie Sauce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Google search for "Cranberry Sauce Honey Recipe" gave a few hits. See: http://tinyurl.com/99yr3 Save some for me! Cheers, Aaron> -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:14:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa/Pollen Traps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/11/2005 05:06:36 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: and isn't it also true that most of the time mites are found on nurse bees as opposed to finding them on field bees? I went through a hive a month ago and noticed that the only visible phoretic mites were on bees very close to open as opposed to sealed brood. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 22:23:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Philippe & Julie Audibert Subject: canola honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking to buy some canola honey , I heard Alberta produce canola honey, do you know any producer of canola honey, if yes could you give me their names? Thanks Philippe -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 11:19:44 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Kalymnos honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark, The honey from Kalymnos is probably from wild thyme (Thymus capitatus) = which has a distinctive aroma and dark amber colour - it shouldn't = crystalise very readily. Best regards Roger White Cyprus. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 11:35:11 -0800 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Matthew Shepherd (Xerces Society)" Subject: Hurricane impacts on Gulf beekeepers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, I'm just passing along a request for information on the impacts of the= recent hurricanes on beekeepers in the Gulf region. Does anyone have any= information. Please don't reply to me (although I am interested) but send= messages to the email address in the message that follows. Thanks, Matthew *************************************************** From: "aggie" Do you have any figures relative to the losses the beekeeping industry= suffered due to the three major hurricanes this season? We are trying to= find out just how extensive the losses are. Thank You, John J. Roberts, Ph.D. CR Consulting, Inc. Young Harris, Georgia ************************************************** ______________________________________________________ The Xerces Society for Invertebrate Conservation Protecting wildlife through science-based advocacy, education, and conservation projects since 1971. To join the Society, make a contribution, or read about our work, please visit www.xerces.org. Matthew Shepherd Director, Pollinator Conservation Program 4828 SE Hawthorne Boulevard, Portland, OR 97215, USA Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org ______________________________________________________ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 11:49:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Origins of Bee Diseases Comments: To: Beekeepers Organic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Because of some of the "discussions" occuring on Beekeeping Lists lately I'd like to solicit people's opinions of where diseases of honeybees have come from. My opinion is that alot of the diseases are, and probably have been, naturally occuring. But then they are made to be highly noticeable by concentrating many colonies in one place. Not to mention other modern practices. What do you all think? I didn't ask about pests, but some will want to include them, I'm sure. So go ahead. Before anyone jumps to any assumptions about why I'm asking, I'm not going retool my operation to the 10th century. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 22:01:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: SMR questions (was Succeeding with small cell) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob's SMR lingering questions: Isis post: >I have seen "pure" SMR lines that were so weak they couldn't build up past three or four combs. I have had two of these. "pure" SMR breeder queens from Glenn Apiaries. Both were not as "weak" as above but kept small hives. Both had shotgun brood patterns which I felt was caused by inbreeding to enhance the SMR trait. Dr. Harbo ( more than once) has said an inbreeding problem was involved with the poor brood viability of the "pure" SMR queens. Quote from page 81 of the 92 ed. of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" concerning what happens to diploid brood: "diploid male brood is quickly eaten by workers (Woyke 1963,1969,1973) We have always been told this happens early in development. Now our researchers are giving us an explanation which is different than what we have been told and also if happening I should have seen in the OB hive. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct05/hive1005.htm Under "Amazing housekeepers, yet mysterious" quote: "The mites'life cycle can be interrupted ,the immature mites may die of starvation , or they may bee eaten along with the mite-infested bee larva." Further: "often ,two or more bees take part in this hygiene-related activity. "One usually acts as a detector, zeroing on the sick,infested bee" Then a remover bee comes along to CONSUME the CONTENTS of the cell" So now we add "detector bee" and "consumer bee" to the list of hive jobs? If the above is indeed what is happening and the SMR line is not inbred (contrary to what we have been told since the start) then for some reason SMR bees are consuming both late stage pupa and *mature varroa mites*. In my OB hive I never saw SMR bees uncapping and *eating* late stage pupa. In my observation hive I have seen hygienic bees remove dead pupa but never eat the same. Our researchers use the word "mysterious". So we know now according to the researchers that the first information told us about SMR was incorrect. I find this new explanation hard to grasp. I think I will reserve my opinion till the third explanation they come up with. What does the list think? Does the SMR current explanation sound right? Have they got it right? What could be the implications of bees with cannibalistic traits? At least a bee with deformed wings can help around the hive. Do dwindling and cannibalistic pupa removal go hand in hand? Is the SMR trait a dead end street? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 06:57:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: SMR questions In-Reply-To: <002e01c5e02b$4e49c480$20bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Bob's SMR lingering questions: > >> Isis post: >> I have seen "pure" SMR lines that were so weak they >> couldn't build up past >> three or four combs. > Is the SMR trait a dead end street? > > Bob Response: I recieved five SMR queens from the Baton Rouge Bee Lab as part of an ongoing study into the viability and usability of several strains of bees as chemical/manipulation free colonies able to handle tracheal mites and varroa mites on their own. I installed these queens in mid April and was fortunate to have all five accepted and laying. At this time, beginning November, I still have four of the queens in hives. One hive became a deadout when no matter what methods I used the queen was unable to maintain colony strength. One other hive is weak at this point and will require feeding to carry through the winter. All five colonies built up colony strength very rapidly at initial installation time. Each colony was started with splits containing two frames of capped brood and adhering bees, two frames of food stores (honey and pollen) and two frames of drawn comb. The remaining four frames had foundation only. They were fed sugar syrup to assist in the buildup of the colonies. As a result of my observations I would have to say that three of the five colonies were very vigorous and I observed no abnormal brood patterns. The one dead out just refused to respond to treatments to build up the strength and I suspect a poorly mated queen. The weak hive may be a result of a poorly laying queen. I have been restricted in my operations on the test yard due to a medical condition so cannot honestly report what the problem was that caused the hive's weakness. In conclusion, I would say that when the queens are laying well, they produced a very strong colony that did well in honey production for the first year. I have just sent in samples to be tested for the presence of varroa and still have to get samples of older bees to send in for testing of tracheal mites. Looking at the bees on the comb though, I saw no evidence of varroa on any of the bees. Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 06:53:19 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: SMR questions (was Succeeding with small cell) In-Reply-To: <002e01c5e02b$4e49c480$20bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Bob: >At least a bee with deformed wings can help around the hive. Well, I doubt they are able to offer much help. I’ve seen some going into cells apparently “cleaning” them, but as infected bees could they also be spreading more pestilence around in the hive? I understand after cleaning cells, their next task is to become nurse bees. As sick as they appear to be, it seems to me their glands for producing brood food are likely to be affected. The infected deformed wing bees I’ve seen don’t seem strong enough to do much of anything else. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:42:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: SMR questions (was Succeeding with small cell) Bees eating eggs and larvae is what I have always heard. You never see them dragging out larvae, now, do you? I often see pupae and mature bees dead on the porch. ButI am sure that they eat these too. Perhaps it depends on the nutritional needs of the hive. Probably they would rather eat fresh pollen for protein, but will accept live or dead brood at certain times. I have seen swarms clean out dead hives, and I assume they "eat" most of the mess. It may be more a matter of expediency than "cannabilism". Eat the small stuff, drag the big stuff out. isis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 23:27:08 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Following a post by Dee Lusby, Bill Truesdell and Isis Glass commented: >Ascribing a genetic change in the bees in essence says that you can go = from a set DNA sequence to a new one in two generations and flip right = back in the same >amount of time. And the queen is changing the = sequence! >reply: This is what I have been saying all along. To get *actual* = changes in honey bee types requires a very long time and a high degree = of isolation. Evolution did >not create the Italians and the Carniolans = from the same ancestors *overnight*. They developed in separate regions = and were presumably isolated geographically >for many thousands of = years. Now, breeding attempts to accelerate the process of = differentiation, but you can only do so much. It may take decades = instead of >thousands of years, but you won't get far in a few = generations. I must admit that, until this evening, I agreed with this completely. I = have never been convinced about the merits of small cell and was = certainly convinced that 'regressing' bees would have no impact on = future generations. However, this evening I watched a programme in the = 'Horizon' series on BBC2 that seems to show that the experiences of one = generation can indeed be transmitted not just to the next generation, = but to subsequent generations. A link to the BBC website about the = programme is here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/ghostgenes.shtml It is a pity that there does not seem to be any way of viewing the = actual programme again. I found it absolutely fascinating and it could = have massive implications for humans and bees. For example, the = 'memory' of exposure of a queen or drone to pesticides (e.g. varroa = treatments), could be transmitted to future generations with lasting = harmful effects. Similarly, the trauma suffered by a larva during = grafting could affect future generations bred from that queen. Perhaps our current thinking is about to be turned upside-down - again! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:42:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: SMR questions (was Succeeding with small cell) In-Reply-To: <200511031842.jA3Ib1ve024738@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis Glass wrote: > Bees eating eggs and larvae is what I have always > heard. You never see them > dragging out larvae, now, do you? By the same token, have you ever seen them eating the eggs and/or larvae? Mike in Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:53:21 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "scot.mcpherson" Organization: Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: SMR questions (was Succeeding with small cell) Comments: To: Isis Glass MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Bees eating eggs and larvae is what I have always heard. You never see them >dragging out larvae, now, do you? I often see pupae and mature bees dead on >the porch. ButI am sure that they eat these too. Isis, Actually I see a lot of larvae material being dragged and flown off from all my hives at different times. So much so that I was shocked to read your above statement. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms Davenport, IA Bradenton, FL -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:23:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: SMR questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, Mike I am very interested in your project as I have said privately. My questions are only intended to help you and the lab solve the *mysterious* part they write about. The labs words were: Amazing housekeepers ,yet *mysterious* mysterious: 1.Implying or characterized by mystery. 2. Unexplained; puzzling -Syn. A *mysterious* occurrence contains something *unknown*. >As a result of my observations I would have to say that three of the five colonies were very vigorous and I observed no abnormal brood patterns. Ok we have got three hives with normal brood viability. In my opinion there are two possible reasons for this if the bees are SMR from the lab. 1. the queen was an outcross and not inbred. 2. The bees you have got are not opening cells and removing pupa as the web site says. Have you got and can you share the fall varroa load? Will tell me quite a bit about your SMR bees. Either 1 or 2 above would leave a shotgun pattern. >The one dead out just refused to respond to treatments to build up the strength and I suspect a poorly mated queen. What was the brood pattern like? Are saying poorly mated because of poor brood viability (shotgun pattern). >In conclusion, I would say that when the queens are laying well, they produced a very strong colony that did well in honey production for the first year. Wow! does not sound like the "pure" SMR Isis and I have dealt with. My question is two fold: 1. does the hive/hives still carry the varroa tolerance Isis and I saw with the "pure" SMR line? 2. Why are you not seeing the work of the *quote* detector & consumer hygienic bees which would have to be the shotgun brood pattern ? If the bees are pulling and consuming the cell would be empty or have eggs or young larva if the queen was prolific. >Looking at the bees on the comb though, I saw no evidence of varroa on any of the bees. Unless the hive is very infested looking at the bees alone is a poor method of guessing varroa load. Use a capping scratchier and pull brood or do a drop or roll test. You asked for my analysis and now you are getting the analysis along with BEE-L. If the lab or you object to our conversation we can take up off BEE-L. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 22:12:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: SMR questions (was Succeeding with small cell) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Isis & All, I can buy what you are saying Isis. I also can buy that bees can pull and eat pupa at times. I also say that's not what I saw happening in my SMR observation hives. Eating a purple eyed pupa would take a few minutes would you not agree? It is my humble opinion if the SMR bees were munching (especially several bees at a time on a pupa as the web site suggests) I would have observed in my OB hives. My opinion is that the *pure* II SMR breeder queens we received from Glenn apiaries had less varroa drop than any bee I ever tested. Would you not agree Isis? The shotgun pattern was the pattern of the breeder queens and the F1 daughters. Would you not agree Isis? What is your opinion Isis as to the cause of the shotgun pattern you and I observed? Here is my opinion: The shotgun brood pattern displayed in the II SMR breeder queens I received and the F1 daughters was exactly like poor brood viability I see from inbreeding. Been looking (at times) at poor brood viability for over 40 years in hives. Actually was rare in my hives until I got those SMR queens. Poor brood viability is the enemy of the commercial beekeeper! My opinion and I have no reason to think otherwise is simple concerning my ob hive observations. The eggs were diploid and the eggs & an at times very young larva were eaten (exactly as you stated in your last post and is in all the bee books of the world). My experience tells me that bees will consume pupa when starving. Otherwise they toss out the entrance. I have a hard time grasping the explanation on the web site I provided that all these SMR bees are feeding on the pupa instead of simply tossing out the entrance. I have done quite a search trying to confirm that bees will consume sacbrood , AFB or simply dead larva if not starving. Pulled from cell and tossed from entrance or flown out 20 feet (Are researchers sure of the 20 feet figure. Sure not 19 or 21 feet. Kidding!) The only munching reference says (as Isis posted) that bees EAT diploid eggs & larva as SOON as detected. All reference said bees remove varroa and bite off parts. I found no reference which said bees ate the whole varroa (as suggested by the site). I think further research is needed. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 22:14:51 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard McGinnis Subject: Gold Honey Spoons In-Reply-To: <200510311352.j9VDT4uY004243@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Looking for a wholesaler of the U bend gold honey spoons - any suggestions? Thanks in advance, Howard -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 04:41:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: SMR questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >are two possible reasons for this if the bees are SMR from the lab. >1. the queen was an outcross and not inbred. >2. The bees you have got are not opening cells and removing pupa as the web site says. >Either 1 or 2 above would leave a shotgun pattern. What I am saying Mike which might not be clear in the first post is that inbreeding & pulling pupa would leave the shotgun pattern and the above is why in my opinion you are not seeing the pattern. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:31:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: larvae material being dragged and flown off, was SMR quote: > Actually I see a lot of larvae material being dragged and flown off from all my hives at different times. So much so that I was shocked to read your above statement. Whoo boy. Wouldn't want to *shock* anyone. But hey, I don't while away the hours watching the trash flow. I believe you, of course. I still think they usually eat eggs and the smaller larvae. isis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:33:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dan & Jan Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think one of my colonies has deformed wing virus. I treated the colony with Apistan in the spring and have the varroa under "control". We have had a very stressful season for the bees with an early freeze that took all the nectar sources, followed by rain and more rain for the rest of the cool season. Most beekeepers have had to feed most of the season. In early August I started to see bees with small ( 1/4 the length of the abdomen)deformed wings held parallel and tightly against the abdomen. The colony kept ejecting these bees for the month of August and into the middle of Sept. There were always a lot of seemingly unaffected bees. Treated with formic acid in mid Sept when the late, but sparse honey flow began. About this time the numbers of deformed bees began to dwindle. The colony had a good but not outstanding working field force If this is deformed wing virus, should I destroy the colony? What happens if the queen has the virus? Any suggestions and /or theories would be appreciated Dan Veilleux Boone area In the Mountains of NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:42:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter Edwards wrote: >>>>this evening I watched a programme (That)... seems to show that the experiences of one generation can indeed be = transmitted not just to the next generation, but to subsequent = generations. <<<<< http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/ghostgenes.shtml I took the liberty of changing the title of the thread. If this isn't an = exciting thread I'll eat my hat. I had heard something of this and = mentioned it on Nov 1. I expected a small stir but no one took the bait. = This is perhaps the most exciting advance of knowledge in a century. It = may still be discredited but if it isn't ... what does it add to the mix = and how will it affect our bees. The first thing I can think of is the trauma that an A.I. queen goes = through. Knocked out by gas and deprived of natural mating may leave = scars. BUT, these scars may be expressed in her daughter queens. And = granddaughters. This is big. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:04:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <002301c5e0ce$1c492e50$4c722a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: >> Ascribing a genetic change in the bees in essence says that you can >> go from a set DNA sequence to a new one in two generations and flip >> right back in the same >amount of time. And the queen is changing >> the sequence! > I must admit that, until this evening, I agreed with this completely. > However, this evening I watched a programme in > the 'Horizon' series on BBC2 that seems to show that the experiences > of one generation can indeed be transmitted not just to the next > generation, but to subsequent generations. I agree with this completely and still stand by my original post. It is not an either/or situation. Bees can learn and that learning can be passed to others. There was a recent study (that made the news and I was going to post a link to it but it was not permanent) about bees having more ability to learn than was thought possible. The BBC program fits this fine. Experience (learning) is one thing, shifting a DNA sequence is quite another. The former is transitory (change the stimulus that promoted the behavior) the latter is set and difficult to change. If it were, we would all be in trouble. Most changes ascribed to a DNA change are not changes to DNA but different expressions of what has been there all along. When human DNA is looked at, there are long strings that seem to have no apparent use, but got there for a reason a long time ago. They may still have a use, but there has not been pressure to express it. Varroa resistance is classic. The mites develop resistance, but, remove the pesticide, and they revert to their more stable form and are again treatable. Their DNA has not shifted, since they revert, but the pesticide selects for specific DNA expressions. If there was an actual change in DNA, then you should find that resistance is now the norm and Varroa would not revert to their previous state. The population of any species has the "same" DNA that will identify them as a species, but they also have "different" DNA since the characteristics of each individual in a species can be different. So you can select within a population for desired traits by changing their environment. However, no matter how hard you try by throwing it into the air, you will not make a flying pig that pollinates flowers. The basic DNA of a pig defines the pig. But you can have a wide variety of pigs with varying characteristics. You can select within those characteristics. A move to small cells is a physical change, not a behavioral change, even though the shift may cause the emergence of a behavior that is not triggered with larger cells. The behavior is there all along, but what stimulates that behavior may not be triggered by large cells and may be with small cells. Dennis' studies match this nicely. If DNA were involved, the shift back to large cells would have no effect on the bees. But they are no longer able to handle Varroa. They are not a new generation of bees but are the same bees, only cell size has changed. There were studies on AHB that showed the same. They are not able to handle Varroa on larger cells. Which is interesting, since we can have AHB involved in small cells. With small cells, we are not teaching them or changing their DNA, we are just changing foundation cell size and "forcing" the bees to accommodate. Which is not unlike my trying to get into my old uniform without busting the seams and have buttons pop off and injure innocent bystanders. That, truly, is an unnatural act. Fortunately, my DNA is not affected. At least I hope not, but the tight pants.... Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:09:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: SMR questions (was Succeeding with small cell) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen wrote: > >At least a bee with deformed wings can help around the hive. > I’ve seen some going > into cells apparently “cleaning” them, I was told that behavior, ducking into cells, was more an act of staying alive by hiding from other bees than productive work. It was pointed out to me, and I observed the malformed bees were the only ones doing it. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:59:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar Comments: To: Lionel Evans Hi Lionel, On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 08:05:36, Lionel wrote: "If you live anywhere close to Chattanooga, Tennessee you can buy sugar for $40.00 for a 55 gallon barrel." Could you share with us the source and what is the address and phone number or any additional information? Thanks, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:07:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Epigenetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit quote: The conventional view is that DNA carries all our heritable information and that nothing an individual does in their lifetime will be biologically passed to their children. To many scientists, epigenetics amounts to a heresy, calling into question the accepted view of the DNA sequence – a cornerstone on which modern biology sits. Epigenetics adds a whole new layer to genes beyond the DNA. It proposes a control system of 'switches' that turn genes on or off – and suggests that things people experience, like nutrition and stress, can control these switches and cause heritable effects in humans. comment: I am aware that new research is coming to light challenging what we think we know about genetics. But it does not, as yet, discredit the traditional notions of heredity. And you certainly can't refer to it as giving credence to misinformed theories until we know *a lot more*. These new findings, as well as the discovery that genetic material can be transferred via viruses and the like, will *supplement* rather than overturn our understanding of inheritance and controlled breeding. A lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea that science is constantly rewriting itself. isis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:47:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Small Fall Swarms To the List, I have noticed, talked to other beekeepers, and have also learned at several different bee meetings about an unusual amount of small fall swarms here in North Carolina and Southern Virginia. Such occurrences here are quite unusual and they seem mimic in some cases usurpation activities. In other cases, they hang on trees and are difficult to hive. Any similar happenings with folks on the list and if so where are you located, how large are the swarms and what is their behavior? Thanks, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:00:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Dr. Harbo's Comments on SMR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Recently, I wrote to Dr. Harbo, posing the questions that have arisen > here, and also mentioning that I would like to be able to quote his > reply. Here are his comments... Dr Harbo wrote again Tuesday and, since this adds to the previous discussion, I quote his remarks below. The file he attached is a PDF and can be seen at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/JARexpl2005.pdf I find the question of what constitutes hygienic behavior to be fascinating, since the definition seems to be expanding without constraint. Where is the line? What conceivable behaviour would NOT be hygienic behaviour? For example, if bees could identify adult bees carrying DWV or AFB spores and ejected them, would this then be added to the list? At what point does the term, "hygienic", lose its specific meaning? --- Dr. Harbo's further comments --- Dear Allen, When I sent my response, to your letter I forgot to send a copy of the article that Jeff and I wrote for the Journal of Apicultural Research. It is attached in PDF format. Also, I think that the term hygienic behavior was first used by Walter Rothenbuhler in a 1958 article. It was originally used to describe the removal of brood infested with AFB. However, as you observed, common usage has expanded the term to include the removal of freeze-killed brood. John John Harbo Honey Bee Breeding Laboratory 1157 Ben Hur Rd. Baton Rouge, LA 70820 USA TEL 225 767-9288 FAX 225 766-9212 email jharbo@ars.usda.gov --- end comments --- allen Oil prices have fallen lately. We include this news for the benefit of gas stations, which otherwise wouldn't learn of it for six months. - William D. Tammeus -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:22:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: News story that got it wrong In-Reply-To: <035401c5daa5$6b0277b0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quote-Bees attack dozens of Baltimore schoolchildren Nov 4, 8:25 AM (ET) NEW YORK (Reuters) - Dozens of children at a Baltimore-area elementary school were stung by bees after stumbling upon them during a science lesson on Thursday, fire department officials said. (snip) unquote Problem is, they were yellow jackets, but the press often does not differentiate. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 13:03:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I treated the colony with Apistan in the spring and have the varroa under "control". Are you sure? Apistan is worthless as a varroa control in our area. My friends in Georgia say Apistan has little effect on varroa in fact mite counts increased during the treatment period. What you describe is the classic signs of bees which have been munched on by varroa and then emerged. Its possible that the fall formic treatment solved the problem if the varroa load was below a level a treatment would work. Test! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:14:53 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I started to see bees with small...deformed wings held parallel and tightly against the abdomen. A classic symptom of varroa-vectored virus. Such deformed wings are common in treated colonies starting in August when the varroa population is reaching a peak. I had a similar observation which may possibly be attributable to a different cause. I had a number of feral brood combs that were exposed to cold temps around 50F for several hours. When I got home I placed the combs in an empty box and shook in the bees from my bee vac. I inspected a week and a half later and saw a few young bees with deformed wings. I was surprised because I did not see any deformed wings or varroa when I collected these bees. I went through the feral combs very thorougly during the inspection looking for varroa - usually very easy to spot when deformed wings are seen - but did not see a single varroa. Here are my questions: 1. Can exposure to cold arrest pupae development and result in deformed wings? 2. Can the deformed wing virus spread by means other than varroa? >>The colony had a good but not outstanding working field force Varroa affects the longevity of the bees. It takes a while for the numbers to recover in a sustainable way. >>If this is deformed wing virus, should I destroy the colony? I would not. If you have beat varroa back, the colony should recover and be fine until you reach the next varroa pop. peak. >>What happens if the queen has the virus? I have not heard that varroa goes after the queen. Perhaps they are less attracted to her scents. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:24:44 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: News story that got it wrong Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Dozens of children at a Baltimore-area elementary school were stung by ... yellow jackets... My wife and I spent a couple of days in downtown Baltimore in September (and were quite impressed with how nicely the waterfront section has been renovated). I was very delighted to see numerous honey bees on Russian sage and lavender blooms in very urban settings. Made me wonder if there were ferals or managed colonies nearby. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:56:05 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Epigenetics In-Reply-To: <200511041607.jA4FSZPs017801@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Isis, > A lot of people >are uncomfortable with the idea that science is constantly rewriting itself. > Whatever "A lot of people are uncomfortable with," When science stops "constantly rewriting itself" it stops being science. Determination to hold onto an idea regardless is turning away from science. Tom Elliott Chugiak, AK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:00:13 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Small Fall Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here on the Central Coast of Ca., there are more this year than I've ever seen, and it comes at the same time AHB was first proven to be in our county. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 22:47:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan & Jan wrote: > Treated with formic acid in mid Sept when the late, but sparse honey flow > began. About this time the numbers of deformed bees began to dwindle. The > colony had a good but not outstanding working field force > > If this is deformed wing virus, should I destroy the colony? Yes, it is almost certainly deformed wing virus and you have a colony that is susceptible to it. It may well die out anyway, but personally I would not try to keep it alive - better to breed from non-susceptible stock (as nature would do). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 22:51:48 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Small Fall Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck Norton wrote: > I have noticed, talked to other beekeepers, and have also learned at > several different bee meetings about an unusual amount of small fall > swarms here in North Carolina and Southern Virginia. Could these be mating swarms due to a large number of failing queens being superseded? Were there problems with queen mating earlier in the year? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:55:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <436B7863.4050209@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit experiences > > of one generation can indeed be transmitted not > just to the next > > generation, but to subsequent generations. Interesting evidence of life experiences adaptability occurring within a single generation, thinking here of the champion rock climber Tori Allen. Tori grew up in Africa and would play in the trees with monkeys everyday. Her arms and fingers and toes grew to be longer than normal due to her body adapting to the activity. > With small cells, we are not teaching them or > changing their DNA, we are > just changing foundation cell size and "forcing" the > bees to accommodate. You need to "force" bees down because they have been "forced" up. Honeybees will in-fact rapidly adapt within a generation or two to the cell size and other environmental forage related factors (as I show in the example above with Tori Allen, adaptation can occur within the same generation). Speaking of small cell,,, Rinderer has shown that drones of sympatric African and European subspecies differed in body mass. It is conceivable that mating behavior of drones based on size is partly responsible for assortative mating and maintenance of races of honey bees. Kerr and Bueno has also observed a limited degree of positive assortative mating between subspecies. This assortative mating pattern could have powerful ecological and evolutionary consequences for your breeding, if a beekeeper should know how to capitalize on assortative mating. This is the 'one of the' basic principals behind small cell, better breeding in future generations, IMO it's just not as simple as cell size. Fortunately, my DNA is > not affected. At > least I hope not, but the tight pants.... But you are no doubt adapting the way you walk in these tight pants. ;>) (another example of the ability to adapt within the same generation ;>) Who was looking for the link on how smart bees are? Here's a few: http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/busy-and-brainy/2005/10/10/1128796449255.html http://www.islamicvoice.com/november.98/science.htm http://www.apiservices.com/articles/us/au_%20smells_trigger_memory.htm Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 22:56:57 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > What you describe is the classic signs of bees which have been munched on > by > varroa and then emerged. Surely this is a classic sign of DWV. We know that if the virus is not present then colonies can carry very large loads of varroa without these symptoms being present. I thought that we had moved on from early thinking that the deformities were caused by varroa feeding on the larvae, to an understanding that the presence of DWV is the real culprit. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 23:13:01 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: *** SPAM *** [BEE-L] Epigenetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isis Glass wrote: > These new findings ... will *supplement* rather than overturn > our understanding of inheritance and controlled breeding. A lot of people > are uncomfortable with the idea that science is constantly rewriting > itself. Perhaps the supplement, by its sheer size and importance will overshadow, if not overturn, our understanding. The new findings, if proven to be accurate, do not (it seems to me) directly contradict our previous understanding of the mechanism of inheritance by the passing on of genetic material - they add a huge new layer on top which provides answers to some of the anomalies which we unable to explain previously. As for science re-writing itself, it was ever thus - and, until until we know everything about everything, that will continue - even if it causes some people discomfort! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 23:32:45 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: *** SPAM *** Re: [BEE-L] Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > Experience (learning) is one thing, shifting a DNA sequence > is quite another. The former is transitory (change the stimulus that > promoted the behavior) the latter is set and difficult to change. First - I do not want to be seen as a salesman for the theories of epigenetics! I watched the programme (50 minutes - some not possible to detail it all here) and personally found it convincing and compelling. Time will show if it is correct or not, but I suspect that it will only take us a bit further towards the ultimate truth. The programme did not suggest that the DNA sequence would be changed and I agree with Bill that this can take a long time - although sometimes mutations happen very suddenly. The whole point of epigenetics, as I understand it, is that life experiences can set switches which alter the way that genes work - it can turn them on or off. The point was made that the human genome was initally expected to have over 100,000 genes, but we now know that there are only between 20,000 and 25,000 and this is not enough to provide the information required to build a human being. However, when you add all the switches that can be provided by epigenetics then the amount of information that can be encoded is multiplied greatly. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:01:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Re: Epigenetics In-Reply-To: <436BD8F5.7070909@gci.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 4, 2005, at 1:56 PM, Tom Elliott wrote: > Whatever "A lot of people are uncomfortable with," When science stops > "constantly rewriting itself" it stops being science. Determination to > hold onto an idea regardless is turning away from science. Very good comment, Tom. When I find myself slipping into a debate about a scientific issue with someone, I take a sidestep and ask, "Is it conceivable that your "fixed idea" is wrong? How a scientist responds to that question reveals much: 1) An immediate "no" means it is time to stop the conversation 2) An immediate "of course" means it is time to bring forth more evidence 3) A long hesitation means that the person knows the answer should be "of course" but cannot go that route Adrian > Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* "For what a man more likes to be true, he more readily believes." Francis Bacon (1561-1626) ******************************************************************* -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 19:07:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Varroa Host Preference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I recently asked if anyone knew for certain that varroa prefer nurse bees as hosts during the phoretic phase of their life. Chris mentioned "I went through a hive a month ago and noticed that the only visible phoretic mites were on bees very close to open as opposed to sealed brood." I have also observed this. I recently found this document which indicates varroa DO prefer nurse bees which is good enough for me and my purposes: http://www.apis.admin.ch/en/krankheiten/docs/varroa/fortpflanzung_e.pdf I thought I'd share it with the list, it's about the best description of varroa reproductive behavior that I've run across, and includes pictures :) George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 19:17:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? In-Reply-To: <20051104.121454.29706.7998@webmail66.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have seen a varroa mite on one of my queens. Presumably it wasn't allowed to stay there long.. I have also seen emerging bees with DWV that were not coming out of parasitized cells so I expect the larva was infected by being fed by an infected nurse bee. George- At 08:14 PM 11/4/05 GMT, you wrote: >>>What happens if the queen has the virus? > >I have not heard that varroa goes after the queen. Perhaps they are less attracted to her scents. > >Waldemar --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:58:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <20051104225536.59152.qmail@web34308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Waggle wrote: > Her arms and fingers and toes grew to be >longer than normal due to her body adapting to the >activity. > > Were her kids born with similar changes? That is the question. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 19:20:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I had a similar observation which may possibly be attributable to a > different cause. I had a number of feral brood combs that were > exposed to cold temps around 50F for several hours. When I got home > I placed the combs in an empty box and shook in the bees from my bee > vac. I inspected a week and a half later and saw a few young bees > with deformed wings. Shaking brood frames of brood at susceptible age will cause wing damage. I wonder how much of the wing damage people see is from beekeepers shaking bees off brood frames? allen Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes. -- Henry David Thoreau, Walden -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:38:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Re: News story that got it wrong In-Reply-To: <436B98F0.2070505@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Problem is, they were yellow jackets, but the press often does not > differentiate. I'm wondering if there was a rash of calls from beekeepers to local news sources, correcting the first version and educating them on the difference between bees and yellow jackets. It looks like many of the stories were revised between the time that Google found them and the time I looked, replacing "swarm of bees" by "nest of yellow jackets". Someone got a clue . . . I wonder how it happened. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 18:51:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <436C11BD.5020309@sc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Benson wrote: > J. Waggle wrote: > > Her arms and fingers and toes grew to be > >longer than normal due to her body adapting to the > >activity. > > Were her kids born with similar changes? That is > the question. Ask me again a bit later, she's is only 15 years old ;>) Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:58:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We know that if the virus is not present then colonies can carry very large loads of varroa without these symptoms being present. What we know is that Norman Carrick & Brenda Ball (U.K.) are pushing the above hypothesis. Brenda helped with a dwv problem on a large scale in the U.S. last year. I followed the correspondence closely. The only solution Brenda gave which applied to the problem and matched what was being seen was that if we could get the varroa control in the 90% range the dwv problem would disappear. We already new the above would solve the problem. Was kind of her to help and advise but the U.K. provided no solution to the problem. The dwv virus (and two others) was found in all samples sent to the U.K. (and in most hives in the U.S. I have been told). So we are back to varroa munching on the pupa vectoring the disease. Brenda said our virus problems would become a non issue if we could keep varroa loads low. THERE IS NO WAY TO RID A HIVE OF VIRUS SPORES! Other than melt the comb and boil the frames which is not going to happen . We call our virus problems PMS in the U.S. (named by Dr. H. Shiminuki). PMS is observed in a hive infested with varroa. A point in infestation occurs and then the virus problems start. They can be mistaken for foulbrood problems with the untrained eye! It is wonderful Bailey named a bunch of virus for us beekeepers but without a solution it is simply in the eyes of the commercial beekeeper more documentation without a solution. In the U.S. beekeepers have not wanted to see our precious research dollars poured into a virus project which has no solution. My opinion and also was the opinion of Dr. Shiminuki in the early years. In closing I might add that after four years of research on the Primorsky Russian bee I can say that the bee can carry a large varroa load in a hive with DWV spores and not get the virus! I have laid awake at night wondering why! The Russian bee shoots big holes in the U.K. hypothesis! Bob "What we don't know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 19:19:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <436C11BD.5020309@sc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Benson wrote: > Were her kids born with similar changes? That is > the question. Here's the Answer: In some cases, change can be very rapid. In an experiment by the University of California at Davis, on Punctuated equilibrium vs. gradualism. The results of the experiment suggest that there are no constraints, and no difference between gradual and rapid evolution. They were able to show that evolutionary changes can emerge in as little as a decade. http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/evol/lizard.html IMO, This may support what many small cell beekeepers (that have managed to maintain bees on small cell long term) are seeing, that fundamental changes seem to occur once bees are established and maintained on small cell long term. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:22:56 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: > Shaking brood frames of brood at susceptible age will cause wing damage. > I > wonder how much of the wing damage people see is from beekeepers shaking > bees off brood frames? Interesting statement - I cannot recall seeing deformed wings before varroa arrived. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 07:18:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: SMR questions (was Succeeding with small cell) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/11/05 01:59:06 GMT Standard Time, mws1112004@YAHOO.COM writes: < wrote: > Bees eating eggs and larvae is what I have always > heard. You never see them > dragging out larvae, now, do you? By the same token, have you ever seen them eating the eggs and/or larvae? Mike in Alabama>> I've seen both. In my first year as a beekeeper, I found large numbers of larvae being thrown out onto the hive floor, and subsequently thrown out of the hive, where I found them on the ground. I panicked, thinking it was EFB, but it was actually an ill-adapted strain trying to raise more brood than it could cope with early in the season, resulting in starved brood. I now find larvae being uncapped and eaten, with no sign of any being thrown out. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:08:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <20051105031946.89690.qmail@web34311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Waggle wrote: >--- Keith Benson wrote: > > >>Were her kids born with similar changes? That is >>the question. >> >> > >Here's the Answer: > > I am sorry Joe but the link you posted has nothng to do with my question. The speed with which populations evolve is interesting, but the process my question was getting at is something else. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:18:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Epigenetics In-Reply-To: <200511041607.jA4FSZPs017801@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The conventional view is that DNA carries all our heritable information and > that nothing an individual does in their lifetime will be biologically > passed to their children. To many scientists, epigenetics amounts to a > heresy, calling into question the accepted view of the DNA sequence – a > cornerstone on which modern biology sits. > > Epigenetics adds a whole new layer to genes beyond the DNA. It proposes a > control system of 'switches' that turn genes on or off – and suggests that > things people experience, like nutrition and stress, can control these > switches and cause heritable effects in humans. http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/en/genome/thegenome/hg02b002.html Epigenetics is not new. The date on the link is 2003. I really do not see anything new here. It is just what I would call a rephrasing of a "known" area of our understanding of what is going on with DNA, RNA, proteins and all else that is associated with DNA (that we know about). I do disagree with the "nothing an individual does in their lifetime will be biologically passed to their children". That is bunk. Just look at cocaine babies and Xrays. You can "damage your DNA (RNA? proteins?)" or at least the process. We are still nibbling at the edges of our understanding of DNA, RNA, and proteins (and anything else involved). The transference of "learned" genetic information could be by specific proteins. The whole area of which proteins do what is still a major and difficult area of study, but one the drug companies are putting a lot of money into. If they can modify proteins to do their bidding, you are looking at true miracle drugs that will do just what Epigenetics is saying is being done, turning DNA sites on and off. But proteins are so complex that it makes the cracking of the DNA sequence a trivial problem. Coupled with this is RNA which selectively replicates DNA sequences to make proteins. RNA is the stepchild of DNA but has shown tremendous promise in its use to combat disease. If you can modify RNA and proteins during your lifetime, then it all fits nicely and you do not need to change the DNA sequence but only what turns certain sites on. You pass along different proteins, not new DNA. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:33:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <436CBCED.8040008@sc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Benson wrote: >>> Were her kids born with similar changes? That is >>> the question. They will not be. What happened to her is she stretched her arms and fingers. Sort of like the old Chinese tradition of bound feet but in reverse. If it worked with the next generation, you would have had a lot of happy Chinese women. I cannot see where a physical constraint on size is inheritable, but I will agree that a nutritional constraint will make for smaller offspring. That gets us back over to the Epigenetics thread, where nutrition can be a factor in passed on traits. Also fits with Dennis' cell gradation from small to large and how they fit a seasonal pattern. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:43:01 -0500 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? In-Reply-To: <001601c5e1ea$8a3cbb80$a2772a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: >Interesting statement - I cannot recall seeing deformed wings before varroa arrived. Tilting a frame or rough handling of a queen cell at the time the wings are developing (day 13 after the egg has been laid, I think) can cause the wings to be deformed or not develop at all. I think this only applies to queen cells, though. Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ janet.katz@earthlink.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:50:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: SMR questions (was Succeeding with small cell) In-Reply-To: <1c0.35180765.309dfcfb@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6D5019FF > I found large numbers of >larvae being thrown out onto the hive floor... >I now find >larvae being uncapped and eaten, with no sign of any being thrown out. Larvae, or pupae? Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date: 10/28/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:01:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Interesting statement - I cannot recall seeing deformed wings before > varroa arrived. The amount damaged at any particular stage is usually relatively small, and the time window for spotting the results is usually quite brief. How long do you suppose bees with damaged wings survive in a healthy hive? Moreover if/when they leave, they crawl as far as they can, so the opportunity to see them may be brief, unless we are into our hives daily, causing and observing damage. Add to that the fact that what we observe tends to be quite highly dependant on what we wish to see, we expect to see, or are told we should see. Granted, varroa has increased the problem of visible and continuing visible damage, but beekeepers routinely shake small larvae out of position, dry out or kill frames of larvae with sunlight during inspection, and otherwise damage brood without being at all aware. allen At the present rate of progress, it is almost impossible to imagine any technical feat that cannot be achieved - if it can be achieved at all - within the next few hundred years. -- Arthur C. Clarke, 1983 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:24:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Also fits with Dennis' cell gradation from small to large and how they fit > a seasonal pattern We have also noticed that the seasonal variation in bee size seems to be related to nutrition, since we concluded that it can be overcome by feeding protein supplements. a;llen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:00:30 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Dr. Harbo's Comments on SMR In-Reply-To: <009001c5e161$47de8590$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 In the paper Allen referred us to, Harbo's last words were "varroa hygiene". -- James Kilty -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 13:12:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Truesdell Date: Saturday, November 5, 2005 10:33 am Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Succeeding with small cell > Keith Benson wrote: > > >>> Were her kids born with similar changes? That is > >>> the question. > > They will not be. > > I cannot see where a physical constraint on size is inheritable, I know - I making a point about the tendency of some small cell adherants towards Lamarckianism. While it is often denied in small cell discussions, many of the explainations of the genetic changes that are preceived by many SC proponants are Lamarckian. Sometimes folks are describing the idea (new characteristics are acquired through interaction with the environment and are passed on to progeny) and are not even aware of the fact. Keith "and giraffes got their necks from stretching into the trees . . . ." Benson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:14:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <436CBCED.8040008@sc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Benson wrote: > I am sorry Joe but the link you posted has nothng to > do with my question. That's ok Keith, it may not be acceptable to your wuestion, but it fits what I was attempting to show, that enviornmental influences such as small cell can can induce rapid evolutionary changes in as little as a few generations. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:06:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: S Wilson Subject: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar In-Reply-To: <200511041559.jA4FKIVX017478@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I would also like to know where to purchase that HFCS @ $40 per barrel! Is it HFCS 55? Again: What is the equivalency of HFCS 55 to granulated sugar? I saw 85% in the archives, but Eric said he thought it was 77%. Thanks, Susi Wilson Rice, VA 23966 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:48:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <436CD0C5.1050607@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bill Truesdell wrote: > They will not be. What happened to her is she > stretched her arms and > fingers... Could be, but I can't picture her hanging from her toes which are recorded also to be longer in response to her body adapting to climb trees. ;>) This suggests that her longer fingers and toes adapted in response to the activity of climbing trees, rather than the 'stretching hypothesis'. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 13:45:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>Interesting evidence of life experiences adaptability occurring within a >>>single generation, thinking here of the champion rock climber Tori Allen. >>>Tori grew up in Africa and would play in the trees with monkeys everyday. >>>Her arms and fingers and toes grew to be longer than normal due to her >>>body adapting to the activity. >> Were her kids born with similar changes? That is the question. > > Here's the Answer: Etc... What I cannot figure out is this: Given the original writer's history of arriving at questionable deductions from sparse facts, and announcing the surmises as fact, *nobody* challenged the truthfulness of the original post, or the exact sources of facts for such an improbable claim. The claim was accepted at face value and the only question was about the next generation. Frankly, IMO, It's a good kids story http://www.kidzworld.com/site/p1204.htm, but any conclusions about abnormal physical development are very doubtful. FWIW, my son climbs ordinary brick walls with his bare hands and feet, and -- much to the amazement of locals -- did the Sugarloaf without equipment. AFAIK, he does not hang, and never has hung out with monkeys and, although he has long, strong, fingers and toes, I doubt it is from climbing. His kids, moreover, do not have long prehensile tails. I've checked. allen Technology is dominated by two types of people: those who understand what they do not manage, and those who manage what they do not understand. -- Putt's Law -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 16:45:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/11/05 13:39:22 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: > wonder how much of the wing damage people see is from beekeepers shaking > bees off brood frames? I rarely shake bees, but I was seeing the odd bee with deformed wings all last season, and it wasn't the first time. I've never seen large numbers of bees affected though. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 17:12:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In response to the recent discussion concerning a colony having the ability to detect undesirable heritable traits at an early stage, and therefore terminate development of the 'animal', Mike asked "Larvae, or pupae?" Good question. Clearly this has been mislabeled. However, this may be more than just nit picking. I seem to recall that when I was first learning evolutionary genetics as a college freshman (1958...big sigh), Russian students of the same age were stuck the Pavlovian determinations of genetics, which set back Russian biology by at least 30 years. Personally, I will be very cautious in accepting this information. I want to be certain we haven't traveled this road under a different name. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 17:17:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1BC23A91 > Again: What is the equivalency of HFCS 55 to granulated sugar? Not really sure the % solids in 55 HFCS, but it weighs 11.55 pounds per gallon, and honey is 12. So, it is almost as thick as honey...if that helps. Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date: 10/28/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 15:42:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Dr. Harbo's Comments on SMR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In the paper Allen referred us to, Harbo's last words were "varroa > hygiene". Yes, however, to be accurate, the words may actually be Jeff's, since they apparently wrote it jointly. This is one of the questions we have been looking at -- the original and the expanded uses of the word hygienic, as well as limits to the word's application when it comes to detecting and removing things from the hive -- if any. Whether we like it or not, words have specific meanings and if the meanings change, then so do understandings that depend on them. Seems hygienic has been extended beyond its original usage to identifying mites and maybe now means the same as housekeeping. I'm wondering where the word ends and posted a question exploring those limits recently. Don't know if it made it to the list or not. The other part of the same discussion, as I recall, was whether SMR bees exist or not. I think that the several beekeepers on this list who have them, and Dr. Harbo's comments settled that part, but this one is a little tougher, and is somewhat important because the usefulness of words depends on a common understanding and it is a bit sloppy to extend meanings of important definition words. allen The keenest sorrow is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities. -- Sophocles -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 15:09:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <48eac348c935.48c93548eac3@southeast.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Benson wrote: Physical constraints on size are to the most part NOT inheritable! But after many generations, it may have more influence and will affect the size cell drawn. ...the idea (new characteristics are > acquired through > interaction with the environment and are passed on > to progeny).. I have never said that!! Read my posts carefully!! Let the record show. I do not subscribe to Lamarckism!! What I do say is that adaptations acquired thru enviornment influences will have an affect on future genetics thru selective matings. The fit that have adapted will have the advantage in matings and the un fit will not. Then also there is size related mating prefrences which will have affect on selective matings. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 18:09:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/11/05 22:22:15 GMT Standard Time, kgbenson@SC.RR.COM writes: <> True, but I've also noticed a tendency to dismiss all suggestion of genetic change in a strain as a result of small cell as 'Lamarckianism' when this isn't necessarily the case. It seems that some strains downsize more easily than others, so it's likely that continued use of small cell will filter out genotypes which have trouble making the transition. The result, over several generations, may well be a genetically smaller bee due, not to the appearance of new genetics, but to simple selection. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 22:30:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell Hi Joe and Everyone, >.... adaptations acquired thru enviornment influences will have an affect on future genetics thru selective matings. The fit that have adapted will have the advantage in matings and the un fit will not. Then also there is size related mating prefrences which will have affect on selective matings. This is one of the very basic principles on which small cell regression is based. But, for me, it brings up a very interesting question when turned in the other direction: Before foundation, when the world was composed of all small cell bees, how did a few beekeepers and a little bit of large cell foundation make such a large impact on the worlds bee populations. How did those large cell size bees, which are inferior in mating, disease resistance, production, survival, mite tolerance, etc., almost completely displace the small cell ones? How could natural equilibrium be pushed so far out of bounds that it requires a beekeepers intervention with regression to re-establish it? Regards Dennis Hoping every's bees are well prepared for the coming winter which gives a beekeeper a little more time to think about these kinds of things. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 18:55:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Re: Genetics In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Nov 5, 2005, at 2:12 PM, Lloyd Spear wrote (in part): > > I seem to recall that when I was first learning > evolutionary genetics as a college freshman (1958...big sigh), Russian > students of the same age were stuck the Pavlovian determinations of > genetics, which set back Russian biology by at least 30 years. I believe that Lloyd meant "Lysenko," not Pavlov. Pavlov studied conditioned response — and did a great job of it. Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 20:42:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <20051105181431.44289.qmail@web34315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Waggle wrote: >--- Keith Benson wrote: > > >>I am sorry Joe but the link you posted has nothng to >>do with my question. >> >> > >That's ok Keith, > Methinks it is only OK to one who was dodging the origional question. It was a very simple question. I find it disingenous when politicians anwser a question with completely unrelated information, and it is a shame to see the same thing here. Keith > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 21:51:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <20051105230924.7688.qmail@web34308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Joe, Robert, Allen, Peter and all: What I do say is that adaptations acquired thru enviornment influences will have an affect on future genetics thru selective matings. The fit that have adapted will have the advantage in matings and the un fit will not. Then also there is size related mating prefrences which will have affect on selective matings. Reply: Interesting following the conversations of late and it makes me wonder about todays DNA readings of what is proported to be. What is positive and what is recessive here genetically and how does it apply to what is being looked at? Joe's paragraph above which I copied, which could be then put with what Peter saw on TV makes me think, how does this relate to the artificial enlargement of our bees for the past 100 years or so, since breeding got going for "bigger is better" from the time of Prof Baudoux in Belgium and spread throughout our world? Seems to me like the term Lamarckianism would be excellent for describing this movement towards bigger also. Was that time period sufficient to make changes in our bees today for the fit to go on and the unfit to fail? We now reverse the situation and go back down in size, which is what regression is..... what will show in say 10 or even 100 years as to what is positive and what is recessive traits genetically? How will DNA testing compare to what is shown today? And again, will the time period be sufficient to make changes in our bees for the fit to go on and the unfit to fail? Just what is fit and what is unfit? The politics of the day? Where would we compare these two bases to? Samples of bees from millions of years old? Thousands? Hundreds? What would you expect to see? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 03:15:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Keeping an Open Mind MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > True, but I've also noticed a tendency to dismiss all suggestion of > genetic change in a strain as a result of small cell as 'Lamarckianism' > when this isn't necessarily the case. It seems that some strains downsize > more easily than others, so it's likely that continued use of small cell > will filter out genotypes which have trouble making the transition. The > result, over several generations, may well be a genetically smaller bee > due, not to the appearance of new genetics, but to simple selection. True, and that is not being disputed. Neither is the fact that there is likely to be more to genetics and heredity than the basic, mainstream ideas that have been proven and tested and taught in schools. I think that, in looking at classical genetics, we are all aware that we may be looking at a something akin to Newtonian Physics, where we have a good model for everyday understanding, but an incomplete one, and where inadequacies show up in looking at some sorts of situations, and where those who are deeply immersed in the science are aware of many nuances and special mechanisms. What we are disputing, and some are patiently and thoughtfully discussing, is: 1. whether this is particularly relevant here, or if the classical model is adequate 2. if the matter can be simplified or extrapolated to the extent some would like 3. if arguing something is so, makes it so 4. whether we are dealing with fact or fancy in the claims that some make, and whether we need use Occam's razor and ascribe some apparently permanent 'downsizing' to Africanization and temporary effects to stunting, or malnutrition 5. whether all the bees in the world were "forced", to use one writer's words, to become permanently larger in a matter of a few decades. (We can all see how bees can be forced smaller by being crammed into small cells, but not all of us can understand how they can be forced bigger and in such a massive and permanent scale) 6. whether nutrition can change genetics an a direct and heritable way sufficient to be germane to the discussion. We all seem to agree that nutrition, radiation, drugs, etc. can cause DNA problems that affect individual direct offspring, but are less willing to concede long-term effects on a line, at least ones that are likely to be of a desirable nature There is likely more, and I hope that others will build on this. To the extent that we all express some degree of questioning and open-mindedness, we have good discussions and learn, but when dogma and magick are seemingly invoked; opinions are represented as fact; people are misquoted; articles are cited, but misapplied; or fantasy enters the picture, some members call, "Foul!". Moreover, we have had continuing discussions on many of these matters over a decade and more, and the more subtle, deeper thoughts of many of the regulars are on record, so their current comments are often merely brief addenda and must be understood in the context of earlier writings. This point may be misunderstood by newcomers or those who don't follow the threads, some of which go back years, and who just jump in and assume they are getting the whole picture. Personally, I am open to hear any wacky idea, and happy to consider it and discuss it good-naturedly until the cows come home -- until someone makes it into dogma and says I have to believe it, or until it dominates the conversation, crowds out other topics and floods the list to the point where people who value their time start unsubscribing. Did I just say small cell is wacky? No I did not. allen Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. -- Leo Tolstoy -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 09:03:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: Dee Lusby What is positive and what is recessive > here genetically and how does it apply to what is being > looked at? I know this is probably just a word choice thing, but it is important as it colors what the above stament is saying to folks without rigerous training in genetics. Recessive is NOT the opposite of positive. Not all recessive traits are negative, not all dominant traits are positive. For a number of reasons people like to think of recessive traits as negatives, but thinking it doesn't make it so. The above sentiment would have better been phrased as: "What is dominant and what is recessive here genetically" or "What is positive and what is negative here genetically". your choice depending on whether you are discussing the degree of expression of a given allele or the merits of a certain trait, respectively. They are different subjects. To do otherwise leaves you mixing apples and oranges something that works best in fruit salad, not science. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 14:47:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Small Fall Swarms In-Reply-To: <006c01c5e192$6f132e50$7b7d2a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 >Chuck Norton wrote: >> I have noticed, talked to other beekeepers, and have also learned at >> several different bee meetings about an unusual amount of small fall >> swarms here in North Carolina and Southern Virginia. What about absconding from varroa riddled colonies, with a dwindled workforce? I have seen small swarms in the summer. One was a virgin with a couple of hundred bees, which came to a bait hive. Another covered less than 2 frames, but was a mated queen, though this may have been from an overcrowded nuc. -- James Kilty -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 07:12:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <20051106055136.51221.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee Writes: ...We now reverse the situation and go back down in > size, which is what regression is..... what will show in say 10 > or even 100 years... Generally, the ferals in my area in certian locations will be of smaller cell sizes and are already adapted and fit in surviving in the wild without the aid of man. What I am focusing on in my small cell program is to try and utilize this existing feral population as best I can to speed up regression, acclimatization and colony fitness. I try and do this by collecting ferals and placing them in a poor location where the good performers are then very easy to select out of the bunch. Ferals caught also get a grade as to what degree of domestic influence I believe they have (this derived as best I can from the location and other investigative techniques). I may weed out my swarms and ferals caught by 50% by years end, then these ferals are wintered in singles to select for desired wintering traits etc. when I may further weed out if needed, only then are they integrated into my operation. I try and use beekeeping techniques that so as to promote competitive matings with the ferals and other fit genetics as best I can. No grafting, artificial stimuli or drone colonies will ever be considered here. I believe this has helped me a great deal in promoting fit genetics and stabilization on small cell with my bees. The progress I am showing in only a few years of keeping ferals on small cell is encouraging and IMO, applies powerful selective pressure in matings in areas where there is an abundant feral ppulation. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:28:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Genetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Adrian said "I believe that Lloyd meant "Lysenko," not Pavlov."...and Adria= n is correct as are several others that sent me private emails. Sorry, and thanks to all. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 11:13:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Sulfa thiazole? Comments: To: Beekeepers Organic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I heard this morning about sulfa thiazole showing up in a jar of honey randomly taken from a store shelf in Canada. The beekeeper says that he didn't use this drug on his bees. I don't know any details about concentration of the drug residue. I don't know if any more samples were taken from the apiary, identified by the beekeeper, to see if the hives are generally contaminated. Maybe someone from north of the border can shed some light on this. My question is , how could this drug get into the honey? What were the bees foraging on that they would then get the drug into their honey? Anybody know or have an idea? Assuming that the beekeeper didn't use the sulfa thiazole himself, as I have no reason or evidence that makes me think that he did. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 09:52:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I try and do this by collecting ferals and placing them in a poor location > ... I may weed out my swarms and ferals caught by 50% by years end, then > these ferals are wintered in singles to select for desired wintering > traits etc. when I may further weed out if needed, only then are they > integrated into my operation. This sounds like a pretty big operation and must be quite time-consuming, and I -- and others -- am having some difficulty understanding exactly what you are doing to arrive at your conclusions. You appear to be on the line between agriculture and bush, judging by your sig and a Goggle Earth view of Derry, PA. Maybe you could outline the area covered by your activities, the number of hives and yards involved, and whether you are keeping bees for income or avocation, so we can see where you are coming from? Thanks. allen I detest life-insurance agents; they always argue that I shall some day die, which is not so. -- Stephen Leacock -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:27:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Small Fall Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James & All, James said: >What about absconding from varroa riddled colonies, with a dwindled workforce? The above is my guess and what I have seen! Mellifera will abscond. I have seen bees abscond leaving sealed brood which many say does not happen. Absconding needs further research. The 92 edition of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" (1324 pages) only refers to absconding of honey bees on a single page (94). Before varroa arrived varroa was only given a single page reference in the book! A little talked about ( and I have NEVER seen in print) reason for spread of varroa is the absconding of workers from a heavily varroa infested hive. The workers can see the hive is failing so instead of going back to their own colony they return to the stand next to the varroa infested hive or the end hive. With a load of nectar or pollen the hive lets the workers enter and soon accepted by the hive. Certain races of bees except drifters better than others. My experiments with II queens and then finding workers of another race making up a third of the workers (at times) show without a doubt drifting of workers between hives is far more common than our beekeeping literature would have us believe. It is my opinion (and might cause a roar as not the opinion of most beekeeping authors) that in most hives the guard bees do not do a very good job of stopping worker drifters at the entrance. Certainly not the level which bee books say! Drifting drones is the method of varroa spread in the apiary other than robbing they tell us! I would change the statement to drifting drones AND WORKERS in the apiary with many hives. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 00:23:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Sulfa thiazole? In-Reply-To: <20051106191342.99734.qmail@web32111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:13 PM 11/6/2005, you wrote: >My question is , how could this drug get into the honey? What were >the bees foraging on that they would then get the drug into their honey? An old Mid-Atlantic Apiculture newsletter ( http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/PDFs/Dec2000-87.pdf ) says: "Discovery in the mid-1940's that sulfa drugs could control European foulbrood (Melissococcus pluton) disease ushered in a new era. Some bee inspectors did not initially accept sulfa treatment as valid, but eventually most beekeepers and inspectors realized the economic value of protecting colonies with this chemical treatment. It wasn't long before the practice became widespread, making large-scale commercial beekeeping viable and profitable. The use of sodium sulfathiazole was eventually discontinued however because it didn't work against EFB, and when used for AFB, it left persistent residues in extracted honey." Based on the above, my only guess (assuming the beekeeper really didn't use it himself), is that he has some old comb or or perhaps even some old honey introduced in his hives. The article doesn't say exactly when it's use was discontinued, but given some beekeepers insistence of using old comb, it's possible he has some old contaminated comb comb. Any chance he fed his bees cheap Chinese honey being sold for feed? Sulphonamides were one of the contaminates found in the honey. -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 20:03:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message was originally submitted by allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. You can approve it using the "OK" mechanism, ignore it, or repost an edited copy. The message will expire automatically and you do not need to do anything if you just want to discard it. Please refer to the list owner's guide if you are not familiar with the "OK" mechanism; these instructions are being kept purposefully short for your convenience in processing large numbers of messages. ----------------- Original message (ID=F875A415) (116 lines) ------------------ Received: from smtp.albany.edu (mail1.its.albany.edu [169.226.1.105]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA6FfFsF022134 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:41:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-04.primus.ca (mail.tor.primus.ca [216.254.136.21]) by smtp.albany.edu (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA6FfDgr000112 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [66.244.235.13] (helo=Nemo) by smtp-04.primus.ca with esmtpa (Exim 4.50) id 1EYmds-0005XF-Cv for BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:41:13 -0500 Message-ID: <006b01c5e2e8$83ec5200$b77ba8c0@Nemo> From: "allen dick" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" References: <20051106055136.51221.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Re: [BEE-L] Succeeding with small cell Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 08:41:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.49 on 169.226.1.44 Dee said: > Interesting following the conversations of late and it makes me wonder > about todays DNA readings of what is proported to be. Yes, and in that regard, I'm wondering if you ever did get a recent and an historical DNA analysis done on your bees, and if you will share the results. That should settle the suspicions of some that the reason your bees are doing so extremely well on 4.9 is that they became Africanized over the same timespan that you were downsizing, and that 4.9 is the preferred size for AHB worldwide. > ...how does this relate to the artificial enlargement of our bees for the > past 100 years or so, since breeding got going for "bigger is better" from > the time of Prof Baudoux in Belgium and spread throughout our world? Seems > to me like the term Lamarckianism would be excellent for describing this > movement towards bigger also. Exactly. You've put your finger on a main reason so many of us doubt that entire story, as Dennis so well pointed out just now. He said it so eloquently that I will repeat it and await a direct answer to his points: Dennis said: > "Before foundation, when the world was composed of all small cell bees, > how did a few beekeepers and a little bit of large cell foundation make > such a large impact on the worlds bee populations. How did those large > cell size bees, which are inferior in mating, disease resistance, > production, survival, mite tolerance, etc., almost completely displace the > small cell ones? How could natural equilibrium be pushed so far out of > bounds that it requires a beekeepers intervention with regression to > re-establish it?". Dee said (cont'd) > Was that time period sufficient to make changes in our bees today for the > fit to go on and the unfit to fail? Is this question answerable? I know I can't begin to address it, because I can't accept its basic premise. Obviously we are not just considering survival of the fittest in one small, stable natural ecology, but rather a large, dynamic and perhaps chaotic system distributed over a vast area with many changing environments and many opposing and changing forces pulling every which way, and with ongoing natural and man-caused migrations and selections of bees and stock throughout. Speaking just of the Americas, there are many factors at play throughout, including scientific selective breeding like NWC and SMR; just to name two of many; importation, just to name the Russian and Australian imports, which were legal and reported widely, plus unofficial small-scale activity; feral activity; AHB migration throughout the Western hemisphere, much of which is under-reported and not fully understood; and other factors, both known and unknown, that are entering the mix. > We now reverse the situation and go back down in size, which is what > regression is..... what will show in say 10 or even 100 years as to what > is positive and what is recessive traits genetically? How will DNA testing > compare to what is shown today? These seem to be rhetorical questions, since no one can answer them, and probably -- IMO -- no one can begin to grasp all the factors in play -- or predict the future. Trying to answer such questions just quickly makes monkeys out of those who do so. > And again, will the time period be sufficient to make changes in our bees > for the fit to go on and the unfit to fail? Again, we are talking about so many populations -- some interlinked -- under so many differing conditions of environment and management that generalization is impossible. > Just what is fit and what is unfit? The politics of the day? The way many want use the terms, that is likely a most astute observation. > Where would we compare these two bases to? Samples of bees from millions > of years old? Thousands? Hundreds? What would you expect to see? A very interesting question. I'd expect to see diversity -- and as they find in human anthropology -- just enough to give rise to more questions than answers, and (as many here would enjoy), unlimited food for speculation and pet theories. ;>) allen It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety. -- Isaac Asimov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 15:55:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Sulfa thiazole? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I heard this morning about sulfa thiazole showing up in a jar of > honey randomly taken from a store shelf in Canada. The beekeeper says > that he didn't use this drug on his bees. > My question is , how could > this drug get into the honey? What were the bees foraging on that > they would then get the drug into their honey? Apparently elk farms have been using sulfathyazole in their feed or water, and several years ago, bees picked some up. What happened in this particular case, however, I do not know. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 17:31:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Sulfa thiazole? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > didn't use the sulfa thiazole himself, as I have no reason or evidence that makes me think that he did. I guess you might say "That's his story and he is sticking to it!". The bees did not pick up the drug off the flowers! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 07:58:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <200511060330.jA63UIo5017984@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- "D. Murrell" wrote: ...How could natural equilibrium be pushed so far > out of bounds that it > requires a beekeepers intervention with regression > to re-establish it? A very good question! IMHO, there are other things that had an equally severe impact on the equilibrium. For instance, the practice of shipping bees into vastly different climatic areas that the genetics are not acclimatized to will also severely impact the equilibrium of the already established local population thru breeding, making the local adapted genetics 'less fit' for their own climate. And then there's artificially propping up of poor genetics thru artificial stimulants and chemicals keeps these genes in the breeding pool that would otherwise not deserve it. Then there's grafting which 'if not done properly', takes out the "survival of the fittest" and genetic variation equation. Also drone colonies, unnaturally flood the area with huge numbers of drones from genetics which might otherwise not have earned this unfair advantage thru natural process. Please note that I did not mention size cell anywhere in my post. ;>) __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:54:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <200511060330.jA63UIo5017984@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dennis You need to get a copy of the Apimondia XX Jubilee Congress edition and read its updates following research 20 years after the war years as industry got going again. Sincerely Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 09:29:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Keeping Bees in Alaska with Love MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Unless this give away comes with frames and the brood nest sanctuary is > left intact, where especially pollen frames have been left in place, the > colonies will more or less be doomed. I didn't comment at the time, but IMO, all Keith's comments in this post make a lot of good sense, and mirror my own observations and experience, and also my philosophy at one point, back when the Canada/US border was closed and we were faced with a choice: either indulge in idealism, sour grapes and wishful thinking, or face reality and get to work making lemonaide. In my own experience, when we were faced with a totalitarian situation, it soon became obvious that such idealism has one weakness -- for complete success, it depends on complete co-operation by all beekeepers in an area and for some to sacrifice or work against their own best interests, and that can never be achieved. In a free society, others have a right to their opinions and activities, and they often (correctly) are at odds with idealist positions. In Alberta, we found that we could not herd all the cats, or line up our ducks, and had to accept that fact. As a result, I had to shift my philosophy to one of optimizing in shifting circumstances and adopting whatever pragmatic approach would yield the best compromise of all interests, but I do understand and respect the instincts to do what seems -- ideally -- to be right.. allen To be stupid, selfish, and have good health are three requirements for happiness, though if stupidity is lacking, all is lost. -- Gustave Flaubert -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 08:22:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Keeping an Open Mind In-Reply-To: <002a01c5e2ba$fe2ddc60$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen Dick writes: 5. whether all the bees in the world were "forced", to use one writer's words, to become permanently larger in a matter of a few decades. (We can all see how bees can be forced smaller by being crammed into small cells, but not all of us can understand how they can be forced bigger and in such a massive and permanent scale) Reply: Maybe saying the whole world isn't quite right for that would assume real remote places and that wouln't be correct there. But worldwide about 135 countries I would say are hurting, due to modernization to bring them out of either old-fashioned beekeeping with antique methods, or to get newer equipment into place. Here with the Paris convention of beekeepers in 1933/34 much when forward and since embossing mills were coming on the market in mass then, and beekeepers wanted to modernize, the EU countries, UK, and USA with manufacturers all went with the bigger is better for hybridization of plants for crops/food was coming into being also for mass production and bigger and better bees were needed. So control the milling with a few and get them to go successively bigger and you have upsizing. Here the Apimondia Jubilee volume of years back would be good reading to see who was all involved. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:12:53 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: Sulfa thiazole MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark, Last year Sulphadiazine (same group as Sulfathiazole) was detected in = our honey at a concentration of 32PPB. We never used any drugs from the = Sulphanomide group in our beekeeping operation. This resulted in us = having to withdraw our honey from the market and we will go to court = about it, with a possible jail sentence. The amount detected was very = low and not a danger to public health, but the law saws no antibiotics = residues anymore and the LOD is 10PPB. Usually antibiotics break down = with light, heat and time, but unfortunately this group of antibiotics = has the characteristic of combining with the honey molecule and becomes = very stable and can be present in honey years after use. The other = possibilty is that some herbicides, Asulam is one of them, can enter the = hive on bees and these then break down into chemicals that are in the = Sulphanomide group. The only solution is to completely change all the = combs and start again. Best regards Roger White Superbee bees Cyprus. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 07:02:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051105171531.01294528@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "What is the quivalency of HFCS to granulated sugar?" I asked this very question in an ABJ column called the "Classroom." I've been searching for that issue in vain, it was probably six or seven years ago, at least. Jerry answered it precisely! Here's what I remember: The key to understanding this question is in figuring out the cost of the actual pound of sugar that is fed, whether that sugar is mixed in a variety of different ratios or in the HFCS. We want to know how much it costs us to feed a pound of sugar, the stuff the bees need. Everything else is superflous. I think the answer to our question comes in two forms. First, what is the cost of the available sugar in a 55% HFCS syrup when compared with cost of dry, granulated sugar sold in bags that I'm going to mix up into sugar syrup? But second, if there is a price difference between cost of the sugar in HFCS and the cost of dry, granulated sugar, assuming the granulated sugar is cheaper, then what does it "pay" me to mix up my own sugar? In other words, what is my labor worth in monetary savings if I mix up the cheaper granulated sugar rather than buy the complete type 55 HFCS? Then there is a third question, a variation of the first question that asks, "At what price is HFCS the same as a bag of granulated sugar?" How do I go about comparing apples to oranges? To find out the answers to these questions, we need to find that common denominator, the cost of the actual pound of sugar. Here's how I go about figuring this out, and if my math is quirky, somebody hollar! In a nutshell, and based on my feeble memory (and Jerry, I hope you're around to help me) 55% HFCS was considered to be 55% "available sugar." If you mix up a light syrup with granulated sugar, in a 1:1 ratio, you have 50% available sugar. If you mix up a 2:1 ratio of granulated sugar to water, you have a 66% available sugar (which is 2/3 sugar and 1/3 water). And, BTW, if a "pint is a pound the world around," then it doesn't matter if you mix up this granulated sugar syrup by weight or volume. They both come out about the same. One of my beekeeping buddies complained he couldn't afford 2:1 syrup and went about feeding 1:1. I could not convince him that he was merely feeding less sugar in the 1:1 and the real cost of what the bees need (the sugar) was the same in either ratio. But I digress. I can get a five-gallon bucket of 55% HFCS for $17, which comes to around 28 cents per pound (figuring that bucket weighs 60 pounds). But only 55% of that is available sugar. One way to find out the cost of the sugar is to take 28 cents and divide it by 55% $17 per bucket / 60 pounds per bucket = .28 cents per pound complete product, sugar and the other stuff in the HFCS .28 / .55 = .53 cents (rounding up) per pound of the sugar content (what the bees need) in the HFCS Bags of granulated sugar run around .36 cents per pound. >From these general figures, the granulated sugar is cheaper when compared to the cost of a pound of sugar in HFCS. And remember, whether you mix up a 1:1 or a 2:1 ratio sugar mix, your sugar cost will always be .36 cents per pound of sugar because the rest of that mix is water. Your amount of sugar will vary from 2:1 and 1:1, but the actual cost of a pound of sugar you are feeding your bees will always remain at .36 cents per pound. A gallon of 1:1 costs less than a gallon of 2:1, but you're merely feeding more water to the bees in the 1:1. The bees need the sugar. >From this example, granulated sugar is cheaper by .17 cents per pound. But I still have to mix it up. Time is money! So my question now becomes, based on the volume of syrup I need, is my labor for mixing my own syrup worth the difference of .17 cents per pound (.53 - .36 cents per pound) ? If I buy two 50# bags of granulated sugar (at .36 cents a pound or roughly $18.00 per bag), and I mix up my own syrup, the value of my labor becomes $17.00 (100 pounds at .17 cents per pound difference). If it takes me thirty minutes to mix up two 50# bags, then my labor is worth $34 per hour ($17 per half hour x 2). Since I pick up my sugar locally, I could also factor in the small amount of time and cost of gas it takes to pick it up. Further, HFCS is available in St. Louis, 100 miles away. Now I also have gas/time costs involved in picking it up, making that bucket cost more than $17.00. So it pays me, in my situation, to mix up my own syrup from granulated sugar. Or in other words, I pay .17 cents per pound for the convenience of having that HFCS mixed for me. Which, on a 60 pound bucket, comes to around $5.61 for that convenience. If I bought ten buckets, then I'm paying $56.10 extra. Is the time it takes me to mix up ten buckets of syrup worth $56.10 ? 60 pounds of HFCS x 55% = 33 pounds of actual sugar in HFCS 33 pounds of sugar x .17 cents per pound savings = $5.61 convenience cost So my question now becomes, if sugar is .36 a pound locally and I choose to mix it up myself and not factor in my time and labor, what is the cost of HFCS that would make it a break-even proposition? I take the cost of the dry sugar and multiply it by 55% to get the equivalent cost of a pound of HFCS syrup. .36 x .55 = .20 (rounded up) cents per pound of HFCS, type 55, syrup That five-gallon bucket of HFCS would have to cost $12.00 (60 pounds x .20 cents per pound) to equal the cost of that 50# bag of granulated sugar sold for .36 a pound. Are all our eyes glazed over yet? Further thoughts: Do I have the time to buy and mix the granulated sugar? If I had more hives, then I may want to pay the extra money for HFCS and forgo the savings. If I had more hives, do I have the containers to mix that kind of volume of syrup? And how many trips to the store would it take to buy all this granulated sugar? If I had storage containers on my farm, then I could buy larger volumes of HFCS at a cheaper price per pound? And what about the cost of type 45 HFCS when compared to the cost of type 55 HFCS? I hope this helps. Grant Jackson, MO Michael Palmer wrote: > Again: What is the equivalency of HFCS 55 to granulated sugar? Not really sure the % solids in 55 HFCS, but it weighs 11.55 pounds per gallon, and honey is 12. So, it is almost as thick as honey...if that helps. Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date: 10/28/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:10:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: sulfa drugs in beehives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All As pointed out by others, this was a common treatment in the U.S., until residues in honey caused the regulatory folks to stop use of the drug in beehives. As Allen points out, if the drug is put in open water for livestock or elk, the bees could certainly pick it up. What other uses are there for this drug in the open environment in Canada? Question -- does Canada routinely survey for sulfa in honey? I'm surprised that it was 'detected'. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:30:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: hive security Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All I will be presenting at the California beekeepers meeting. We've finally got some possible solutions to the beehive thefts that first showed up in California, and have now migrated to remote beeyards in Montana. We don't have a perfect solution, but we have two options that I will be describing: 1) Hive Marker -- a very small radio-frequency identification tag on a plastic film. Many of you have seen these (I've shown them at meetings over the past two years), but the price has finally come down considerably. Advantage -- easy to hide, inexpensive, nothing to wear out (no battery), with a read range of a few feet. Disadvantage -- read range of a few feet is far better than inches, but not sufficient to find 'stolen' hives. If your hives are stolen and recovered, you have positive identification of your property. 2) Hive Tracker -- a breakthrough in terms of price and range. This is a 1x1.5x1/4 inch capsule. It has a radio frequency tag with a beacon. The tag broadcasts its identification code every 12 seconds for 4 years (estimated battery life). If it is moved, the tag switches to broadcasting its ID every 2 seconds. Replacement batteries are under 35 cents. Advantage -- long range (1000 ft is easy, up to 1/2 mile under ideal conditions) Disadvantage -- more expensive, best suited for marking pallets. A basic reader can pick up 200 tags, and read everyone of the tags in 10 seconds, at 300 ft. Again, each tag has a unique ID, so one can identify the beekeeper (owner) and hive (number) from each tag. With add-on antennas, we've attained a read range of 1000 ft to 1/2 mile. Last week, we located a tag in a refrigerator in a house 1200 ft away. The Hive Tracker system gives you some options -- flying over highways, groves and searching for 'lost' hives. Monitoring chokepoints -- border crossings Both of these are available today. The third option is to have a reader in a yard, call home when hives move. We're rushing to add that functionality, but we're not quite there. These tags aren't cheap when compared to the Hive Marker tags, but the price looks a lot better when you figure in the 4 year life. To protect a pallet of six hives for 4 years would be about $1.70 per hive. If a new battery gave you another 2 years (at 35 cents), price would drop to $1.12 per hive. I'll have the system at Lake Tahoe for those who are interested. Jerry I also will be presenting a business/research leveraging opportunity. I can get approximately 1/4 million in match for research, if some other business or group buys into this system. That would go a long ways toward achieving the 'call home' capability. Eventually, we see these tags as part of a distance management system for commercial beekeepers. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:48:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Small Fall Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/11/05 07:20:31 GMT Standard Time, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: <> So would I. I've watched workers from a hive I'd turned out drifting into the next hive; they were well 'beaten up', but they all got in, and I doubt whether much varroa would be dislodged in the process as most attention seemed to go to heads and extremities. I also get some wasps getting in, even with strong colonies and permanently reduced entrances, which leaves me unimpressed with the guard detail. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:56:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Coincidently, Jerry answered this question in the November issue of ABJ. HFCS 55 is 87% sugar! The 55 is only the fructose content. The 'missing' 13= % is apparently water, but I don't know that for sure. However, I have heard the 87% enough times over the years that I am reasonably certain it is right. I think the calculations will show that at the 87% level HFCS is a 'lot' less expensive than sugar (sucrose). That is the challenge these guys face. At a moment's notice, all the HFCS customers will switch to sugar if it is less expensive! In the same ABJ is a 'history' of HFCS in the US. Interesting reading. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:13:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: S Wilson Subject: Re: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar In-Reply-To: <20051107150200.12690.qmail@web31609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks so much Lloyd and Grant! The Heart of Virginia Beekeepers thank you too. Susi Wilson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:50:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Sulfa thiazole? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20051107000301.0304d688@mail.watchtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tim Arheit wrote:At 02:13 PM 11/6/2005, you wrote: >My question is , how could this drug get into the honey? What were >the bees foraging on that they would then get the drug into their honey? Any chance he fed his bees cheap Chinese honey being sold for feed? Sulphonamides were one of the contaminates found in the honey. -Tim Is cloramphenical (sp?) a sulphonamide? Isn't that the chemical that was found in Chinese honey? I wouldn't doubt that there was more than one chemical found in the honey from China. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:13:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you, Lloyd! The beauty of this group/forum is to share the right information and help those of us who shoot from the feeble fading faculties used to try and navigate the complexities of life. Thanks for setting me straight, it is appreciated. And my November ABJ is sitting on my "Stuff to be read when I find time" pile, at least until I get to it tonight. I also went and checked some current prices. A 50# bag of granulated sugar is now $20.99 at SAM'S CLUB, and that comes to .42 cents per pound. And I have to mix it. I made a few calls. A 5 gallon bucket at 11.5 pounds per gallon costs $17.25 at Gateway Foods in St. Louis, picked up at their plant in Dupo, IL. That cost is .30 cents per pound of syrup, or .30 / .87 = .34 cents per pound of available sugar. St. Louis is still 100 miles away and for me that's a four-hour trip plus gasoline. I do, however, get to keep the plastic buckets with their nice logo on the side. Theresa also told me Gateway's price next year will be higher at $19.31 per 5 gallon bucket. That works out to .39 per pound of available sugar. Sugar is also going up in price and will likely be higher next year as well. I can also get a barrel (630#) of type 55 HFCS delivered to my door for $208.10. That cost for the syrup is .33 cents per pound, or, at 87% sugar (.33 / .87) is .38 cents per pound for the sugar content. While it can be delivered, handling drums is doable, but not readily convenient. But it is delivered and mixed. And I get to keep the barrel, though for my operation it is not something I normally use to store/sell honey. According to the 87% sugar content, HFCS is a little cheaper for what I can purchase, and that doesn't begin to acccount for what it COSTS me in my time and energy to mix that sugar. One thought not yet expressed has to do with availability. I can drive to my local SAM'S CLUB and pick up any volume of sugar at a moment's notice. The HFCS has to be ordered. Also, my last order of HFCS type 55 granulated on me and had to be warmed up. Not the end of the world, but another factor of my time and energy. My apologies to all you who rushed out today and bought out the local grocer's supply of granulated sugar thinking it was cheaper. Thank you, again, Lloyd for giving us the straight scoop. I think this is how these groups/forums are supposed to mutually and openly help each other. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 20:16:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 7 Nov 2005, Lloyd Spear wrote: Coincidently, Jerry answered this question in the November issue of ABJ. HFCS 55 is 87% sugar! The 55 is only the fructose content. The 'missing' 13% is apparently water, but I don't know that for sure. To the List, I have waited a while for Allen or someone else to speak up. I really hate throwing a monkey wrench into the gears when they seem to be running so smoothly, but I believe that a course correction should be explained regarding HFCS. Two references: (1) Please see the November 2005 American Bee Journal, page 897 of John Trumpeter’s article “High Fructose Corn Syrup – an Update”. The first sentence of the second column says, “ Don’t pay for water: 55% HFCS is 23% water, which means that for every 100 pounds of syrup you buy, you are getting 23 pounds of water.” That by itself implies that 55%HFCS contains 77% solids by weight; the solids of course are sugars. (2) Go to Allen’s Diary, http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/default.htm and do a Google Search for "HFCS" at www.honeybeeworld.com or go directly to Allen’s HFCS/Sucrose/Bag Sugar Comparison Pricer, www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/syrup/syrup.xls. There you will not only find a marvelous spreadsheet that takes pricing inputs for 55% HFCS, sucrose syrup, and bag sugar and finds the best one to use predicated upon price. If you look at the “Concentration (%) lines, Line 7 for HFCS and Line 18 Sucrose Syrup you will find the concentration as a percentage of 77% and 67.5% respectively. I believe this should help clear things up. Cheers, Chuck Norton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:31:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <00aa01c5e2f2$75804230$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- allen dick wrote: > > This sounds like a pretty big operation and must be > quite time-consuming, > and I -- and others -- am having some difficulty > understanding exactly what > you are doing to arrive at your conclusions... Hi Allen, The problem in keeping locally adapted ferals, is I can't get on the phone and order more queens if I should need one, or risk undoing all my efforts. So, what I am attempting to do is to be 'self sufficient' and derive a system as best I am able for collecting ferals and effectively assessing them for possible integrating into my stock. I well understand the fact that all ferals are not created equal, and not all ferals are ferals, so it becomes necessary to develop effective methods to weed out the duds and that with too much domestic influence if I am to have any chance at succeeding by doing this. Where I get my ferals, is I work closely with a local pest control company that is very 'pro honeybee' and they insist that all honeybee calls be handled by a beekeeper for proper removal. I will also set out about 20 or more traps. Some traps are given to friends for placement in distant locations and others are placed in specific areas where good ferals have been obtained in the past. I record where I obtain each feral for possible future placement of swarm traps or mating nucs. I don't know that I should get into much detail on how I arrive at decisions on where I locate my traps, or what specific traits I may be after as it relates to trap placement/micro environments as I am still developing strategies. But I will say that it is based on 1. bee habitat observations made while doing other bee removals 2. locations where ferals of small cell size have been caught during and after the varroa years (these areas I call 'small cell pockets') 3. locations where honeybees have recovered the earliest from the varroa collapses of the mid 90's. And 4. just this year, I am noticing that secondary qualities I am highly interested might be 'micro environment specific', and showing up in environments I have always thought of as poor bee habitat. So I will be experimenting with a trap placement strategy next season to see if it repeats. I'm looking at 'bee habitat' as much more complex than I have ever imagined, with many environmental factors inter playing in ways I have never expect. But if looking at it from a feral honeybee perspective, it becomes much clearer what bee habitat really is. But I have also seen that bees are not always bound by the habitat. What I thought of in the past as poor bee habitat can become not so bad when these secondary qualities develop. In order to effectively assess ferals, it is necessary never to use treatments or feed and also to basically 'treat them like crap' they are on their own. Bees that are obviously domestic get culled from the start, and I will also look at cell size, bee size and location caught. These then get placed in my ridge apiary which is my poorest location for bees after the tree bloom ends. This poor habitat makes it very easy to distinguish the best performers. Bad performers get culled in July, August and September as I assess them. This year for example I started with about 10 swarms/cutouts and culled them down to 5 which will be wintered in singles, and the bad culled again in spring. I will use the bees, brood and stores from the culled performers to strengthen any late comers I caught that show particular promise, so I can reduce the risk of loosing them. I will also split exceptional stand out stock to reduce the risk here also. Then these bees get wintered in singles so I can further assess wintering abilities and spring development. Just learning and adjusting as I go. As far as I know there are no books on how to develop ferals for beekeeping, so I'm changing my techniqe as I learn more on what is working and dumping what isnt working. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 20:46:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: sulfa drugs in beehives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >As pointed out by others, this was a common treatment in the U.S., until residues in honey caused the regulatory folks to stop use of the drug in beehives. Actually the drug was NEVER registered for use in bee hives so no tolerance was ever set. Which means zero tolerance. The efeectivness in controlling AFB was discovered at the University of Missouri in 1944. In those days the USDA was not as particular about registration. The Beekeeping industry was in dire straits from AFB! All the bee books after 1944 talked about sulfa use and gave mixing directions. If the drug had been registered the level found in Canada might have been within tolerance. >As Allen points out, if the drug is put in open water for livestock or elk, the bees could certainly pick it up. I will keep quiet as a fellow beekeeper is involved . >What other uses are there for this drug in the open environment in Canada? Sulfa has a wide range of agriculture use for livestock. Honey bees was never on the label. Only one sulfa drug was recommended by MU for honey bees. Has been off the market for over ten years. All the sulfa drugs which are *not* water soluble and spring use of sulfa leads to contamination problems. In other words ignorance causes the problem. The amount recommended by MU was only a quarter tsp. per gallon. Use of a higher amount did not increase the effectiveness AND contaminated honey. The amount in the beekeepers honey is very high! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 21:15:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Sulfa thiazole? In-Reply-To: <20051107215043.27215.qmail@web32106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob stated "The bees did not pick up the drug off the flowers!" Antibiotics are used in the orchards producing apples - and other fruits. As best as I have searched, I have not been able to find the article relating to Antibiotic contamination of honey produced in the Black forest, Germany several years ago. There was a "buyback program" put in place to compensate the beekeepers who had had their harvest accidentally contaminated. The antibiotic source was thought to have been via. orchard treatments against fire blight. Similar link - see following: > taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/index/96KVYL7WCARUYLP3.pdf Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 23:27:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Sulfa thiazole? In-Reply-To: <20051107215043.27215.qmail@web32106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:50 PM 11/7/2005, you wrote: >Is cloramphenical (sp?) a sulphonamide? Isn't that the chemical that >was found in Chinese honey? I wouldn't doubt that there was more >than one chemical found in the honey from China. I believe they are different. Cloramphenicol was the big one in most of the news reports, but a quick google search turned up a couple articles finding sulphonamides (among other things) in honey of Chinese origin as well. Cloramphenicol contamination seemed to be limited to the chinese honey, but sulphonamides and the others looked like they came from all over. http://www.apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/2003/reybroek.pdf I'm just wondering where all the contaminated honey gets dumped. Is it fed back to the bees, sold as feed, blended to below detection limits or ultra filtered? -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 01:06:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ed Geels Subject: Re: Sulfa thiazole? I've been thinking about where chemicals could come from that get into hives. Today as I was returning from lunch and pulled up to the Science Building where my office is I saw a fair number of my Buckfast and small-cell bees flying around. It has frozen quite often in the past four weeks and there are no nectar sources left to speak of. I followed the bees to the trash can and looked in and on the bottom they were recovering the rest of the soda from pop cans discarded by students. What if there had been also a discarded sulfathiazole can/bottle spilled there and mixed with the soda? Wouldn't the bees also have taken that up. Just wondering? Ed Geels -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:47:01 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Sulfa thiazole? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Antibiotics are used in the orchards producing apples - and other fruits. I believe that streptomycin and terramycin are used to combat fire blight in apples. One of the reasons we do not want fire blight here in Australia. I remember back in 1986 when touring the USA and Canada, sulphathiazole was in common use then. It was use against AFB. I believe it was not registered for that use but was being used all the same. I also recall that not long after we came home after the tour, Canadian honey was banned in the USA because of sulphur residues. We were told on the tour that when the stocks of honey in the USA built up and they wanted to stop imports from Canada they did some analysis and would inevitably find sulphur residues. Whilst honey was short in the USA no testing was done on imported Canadian honey. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 03:10:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Sulfa thiazole? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20051107230744.0309bf28@mail.watchtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Marks' reply: Good question. If the contaminated honey is treated like contaminated milk it's dumped into the ground, deeply I hope. It surley couldn't be dumped just like milk, cause in my experience milk is dumped down the drain into the waste water system or sewer. I would think that honey would cause problems there, too. Mark Tim Arheit wrote: I'm just wondering where all the contaminated honey gets dumped. Is it fed back to the bees, sold as feed, blended to below detection limits or ultra filtered? -Tim --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 06:42:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <20051108013119.97539.qmail@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6A8A4055 > I have also seen that bees are not always bound by the >habitat. What I thought of in the past as poor bee >habitat can become not so bad when these secondary >qualities develop. Aren't I seeing this all the time? I'll have a yard that produces poorly...over a number of years. Just when I've decided to move the yard to a new location, the yard will have a great year or two...same bees, same "secondary? traits." Not sure what you mean by "secondary traits," but it seems these changes have more to do with the year, than with the bees. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/162 - Release Date: 11/5/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 07:47:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: feral bees in Australia The Department of Conservation and Land Management is working together with the Water Corporation to develop a Feral Bee Control Strategy. The European honey bee (Apis mellifera) is an exotic species that was introduced into Western Australian in the 1840s. Although they are the same species, feral bees differ from managed bees. Feral bees are those that have escaped from a managed apiary hive to establish unmanaged hives in many areas of the State. Feral bees are generally aggressive, have a tendency to swarm and they are of little value for commercial honey production or for pollination of crops. The Feral Bee Management Project jenniferj@calm.wa.gov.au -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 07:10:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Feral Honey Bees Hello What is feral in regard to honey bees? A swarm heads for the hills and "goes native"? Bees aren't domesticated to begin with, so how could they become wild? They are practically the same now as when they were first kept by humankind. Why is this so? Because they cannot be domesticated, like cows or chickens. They do not appear to have this in their makeup, any more than rattlesnakes or raccoons can be domesticated. Human selection has found the types that have productivity and manageability in their makeup, and we have also located types which produce poorly (low honey yield) and are difficult to manage. Read Brother Adam or any textbook that describes the different races. Within these races are variations, too, but nobody ever suceeded in changing the bee into something radically different than what it is. Therefore, there isn't much difference to revert to. If a colony is in the wild for a year or two, are they feral now? How is that *any* different from a colony managed on the *let alone* plan? If a hive is allowed to self requeen, for generations, then you have the same exact thing. I know plenty of beekeepers that never requeened, and never saved a hive a hive when it went downhill (just fold 'em up and put a swarm in next year). These bees are not feral, just mongrels. I am not saying mongrels are bad. Everyone has seen the pretty yellow bees and wondered if it wise to keep bees bred solely for color. In my opinion, the yellow bees seem to do just as well, so there hasn't been much harm in it. The mongrels seem to have very little special going for them and they tend to sting more. The whole concept of feral when aplied to bees seems utterly nonsensical, unless you have isolation. By isolation, I mean you would have to have a population that bred only with itself. It would require at least several hundred colonies to prevent inbreeding and probably at least a twenty mile no-bee zone to prevent crossing with domesticated populations. Then it would require time. How much time? I don't know. Perhaps 100 years would show some actual difference. There have been several cases of isolated populations on islands. Those are the only bees that *could* be called feral. Isis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:08:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Feral bees in Texas & Arizona Feral bees in Texas & Arizona Varroa mites were first recorded on the Welder Refuge (Texas) in 1995. By 1996, the feral populations had declined dramatically. Africanization began to increase in 1995, with all the colonies Africanized by 1998. These data suggest populations of European feral honey bees were decimated by Varroa mites in 1995, and then replaced by Africanized honey bees in the following years. ... The decline in the feral population corresponded to the arrival of Varroa mites, while the recovery can be attributed to the arrival of Africanized honey bees. Further investigation using a landscape ecological approach provides promise for predicting the role of Africanized bees in more northern latitudes. * * * Actually, all honey bees are imports to the New World. Those that flourished here before the arrival of Africanized honey bees (AHBs) are considered European honey bees (EHBs), because they were introduced by European colonists in the 1600s and 1700s. EHBs that escaped from domestication are considered feral rather than wild. "Early on, we thought the mixing would reach a steady state of hybridization, because we knew the two groups of bees can easily interbreed and produce young," DeGrandi-Hoffman says. "But while substantial hybridization does occur when AHBs first move into areas with strong resident EHB populations, over time European traits tend to be lost." "Varroa mites emptied the ecological niche of feral honey bees just as AHBs arrived," says DeGrandi-Hoffman. "If they hadn't been moving into a decimated environment, AHBs might not have replaced EHBs so quickly." Virgin queens fathered by African drones emerge as much as a day earlier than European-patriline queens. This enables them to destroy rival queens that are still developing. African virgin queens are more successful fighters, too, which gives them a significant advantage if they encounter other virgin queens in the colony. AHB swarms also practice "nest usurpation," meaning they invade EHB colonies and replace resident queens with the swarm's African queen. Nest usurpation causes loss of European matrilines as well as patrilines. "In Arizona, we've seen usurpation rates as high as 20 to 30 percent," says DeGrandi-Hoffman. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 07:11:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Collecting Venom Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6A8A4055 Is anyone on the list experienced with venom gathering? An electric landing board is used, which the bees sting. The venom is extracted, and sold. Where can these boards be purchased? How are they used? How is the venom extracted from the pad? Where can the venom be sold? How much is it worth? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/162 - Release Date: 11/5/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 08:10:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just got off the phone with Steve in the lab at Cargill Corn Sweetener plant in Decatur, Alabama. He said that "55" is 77% solids. Which is 23% water. He has been at this plant for 29 years and the plant is closing December of this year. Sad since some of the areas best jobs were there. Also some of the beekeepers used corn syrup from this plant, I being one of these. Lionel Evans -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 08:24:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Grant & all, You will need to re-figure at 77% instead of the 87%. These figures are from the manufacturer of corn syrup. Cargill at Decatur, AL. Sugar in 10# bags at Wal-Mart was 3.99 per 10 pound bag. Sam's is a rip-off. Lionel -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 08:55:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051108063604.02aca448@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Michael Palmer wrote: ...Not sure what you mean by > "secondary traits," but it > seems these changes have more to do with the year, > than with the bees. Hi Mike, I agree, most times they do have to do with the year,,, But where I have bees at home, there are 'fair years' and then there are 'poor years', never ever a good year. I will get to 'secondary traits' in a moment. But first, if I may give some background,,, My 'home apiary' is in a terrible location for bees, (Yes I have other locations down in the prime areas, but as Dorothy said: "there's no place like home" :>). The locust and tulip is great here, but then in mid May when tree bloom ends there is only left minimal forage for bees, and if we have a late freeze, the tree bloom will mostly end altogether. Then it is poor forage until goldenrod and other woodland type asters start blooming in late summer. And even then these quantities are not sufficient to get much more than a meager surplus, or replenish the broodnest from depleted stores in time for wintering. If you look at a map of my ridge apiary, you will see that I am surrounded by woodlands to the north, east, and south. The main forage during the summer months is located to the westerly directions in the low lands where the bees here must fly a mile to two miles before any significant nectar sources are located, and I see them flying in that direction during summer months. For many years I have suffered devastating colony losses here at home where I used to keep 'all my colonies'. Due probably to the compounding effects of varroa, TM, lack of near by nutritional forage, along with my use of non acclimated bees and treatments. IMO, healthy bees can easily handle a few stresses, but when there are compounding stresses it may become too much. So now I'm looking at the ferals that are doing well in the ridge land areas to try and find an answer. There are the well known traits, broodnest fecundity, honey production, low swarming, gentleness. But there are also other secondary traits that may be very important to ones own localized environment and IMO may be essential for keeping bees in areas where forage is sparse or other unique environmental conditions exist. I'm looking at the secondary quality (if I am diagnosing what I am seeing correctly) 'wing power' which if highly-developed can influence the flight range of a bee. How doe's one select for this?,,, I have no good idea!!! :>) ,,, only theories and assumptions derived from observations. I've trapped several swarms in the isolated ridge woodlands that are showing 'remarkable brood patterns' and excelling in other good traits in comb building and foraging zeal. This should not be!!!, because this is an area that I always thought of as 'poor bee habitat' and 'bad for bees'. And then, when I place them in my ridge apiary, they usually will out perform. This was especially noticeable this year with the drought, which is what actually brought it to my attention. I understand that the secondary quality wing power may promote counterproductive influence of the undesirable characteristics in commercial queen rearing where random matings of 'pre selected genetics' have to be relied on. And commercial breeders may even be inadvertently selecting against this quality when they assess for desired characteristics that are found in their pre selected stock. >From what I am observing, better random matings seem to be showing up in the brood viability of woodland feral queens to a higher degree. IMO, as a feral beekeeper, the more random matings the better for me. So I'm going (for now) with the hypothesis that the woodland ferals might possibly have a highly developed 'wing power' or other secondary traits that can be useful for me that may not always be prominent in bees that have more domestic influence or located in the lowlands where conditions are not so bad. I remember reading a fascinating article that Kirk Webster wrote. He mentioned the practice of trucking some of his mating nucs in the isolated woodland hills for mating. The reasons (please correct me if I'm wrong) if I recall was to gain more acclimated genetics from that of the ferals. But could Kirk also be obtaining these 'secondary qualities' that may not be prominent down in the Champlain Valley such as wing power? It's certainly something to think about considering the good success he has had in producing an excellent bee. In wanting to develop ferals to the highest degree in my honeybees, I find it essential to look to those that are succeeding with ferals or techniques derived to capitalize on the feral genetics such as Dee, Kirk and others for direction. PS. On a side note: Kirk will be speaking at Lewisburg, PA on November 11, at the 2005 PSBA meeting. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:28:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees In-Reply-To: <200511081211.jA8CBJGr028012@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Isis Glass wrote: > What is feral in regard to honey bees? According to the dictonary, and I support this definition: "1. Said of animals normally found in a domestic situation or in captivity: wild; fending for itself. Example: feral cats" The key in the definition of feral honeybees is would be 'fending for itself' A swarm heads > for the hills and "goes > native"? Yes, they would be called ferals if they were able to fend for themselves into the next few seasons. But to what degree is IMO ie very important. As IMO, not all ferals are good ferals. But having said this,,, IMO, 'depending on your local bee habitat' I believe that you can derive a certain amount of confidence as to 'what degree of feral', or in other words, 'how long the bees may have been fending for it's self with minimal domestic influence' by analyzing the location of the bees caught in reference to other domestic beekeepers in relation to degree of isolation. And also by bee and cell size drawn. If I may please quote a reference, please forgive if they are interpreted as 'out of context' etc. It is not my intent. In a study: "The sites finally chosen by Lindauer’s swarms, and by 13 swarms observed by Seeley and Morse (1977) had a median distance of about 900 m, and few swarms selected sites beyond 1500 m or closer than 300 m." IMO, in 'my area' which has an over abundance of potential high quality nest site voids to choose from. It is highly unlikely that a domestic swarm will travel more than one mile into the isolated woodlands to find a home, although I won't protest the possibility that it can happen. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:13:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees quote: "[feral] 1. Said of animals normally found in a domestic situation or in captivity: wild; fending for itself. Example: feral cats" This is precisely my point: honey bees are not *in captivity* nor can they truly be said to be domesticated. In my opinion, hive bees are wild, for all intents and purposes. Unless you can show some significant difference between bees in hives and bees escaped to the woods, then the distinction implied by "feral" simply does not apply. Now, I offered two examples where there is a distinction made (Australia and Texas). In both cases, ferals were referred to as being a negative thing. The Australians said ferals swarm too much and don't make much honey (which could be a factor of the nest cavity size, of course, and not a trait at all). The Texas ferals were all Africanized. In terms of "fending" for themselves, how would you test this? How long would a colony have to fend for itself? Even without varroa, individual colonies frequently fail, for reasons having nothing to do with disease. Sometimes, a colony will fail to supercede the queen until it's too late. Or the queen will fail to return from mating. isis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:47:14 -0500 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Bee venom collection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This link may be of interest. It is for Apitronics in Alberta Canada. http://www.direct.ca/beevenom/index.htm#the -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:53:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: Isis Glass Date: Tuesday, November 8, 2005 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Feral Honey Bees > quote: > "[feral] 1. Said of animals normally found in a domestic > situation or in captivity: wild; fending for itself. > Example: feral cats" > > This is precisely my point: honey bees are not *in captivity* nor > can they > truly be said to be domesticated. Sure they can. from www.dictionary.com 1. To train or adapt (an animal or plant) to live in a human environment and be of use to humans. 2. To introduce and accustom (an animal or plant) into another region; naturalize. 3. A plant or animal that has been adapted to live in a human environment. >In my opinion, hive bees are > wild, for all > intents and purposes. Unless you can show some significant difference > between bees in hives and bees escaped to the woods, then the > distinctionimplied by "feral" simply does not apply. There have been a number of reports on this list that suggests that many feral bees are somewhat genetically dissimilar to most "owned" bees. I do not have the references at my fingertips, nor do I have any intention of finding them - interested parties are welcome to use the search feature. Why? Because it is irrelevant. Bees in hives are owned, managed, bred, and have specific traits selected by humans. Should they take off, voila, instant ferals. Having said that I think it is a stretch to take a hive of bees, with a commercially produced queen, who was bread for reduced swarming, increased fecundity, a particular colot, disposition, resistance to certain diseases, and a greater proclivity to store excess quantities of honey etc., and not recognize that this beast is not "wild". Just because they can leave does't make them wild. Or would it be correct to assume that because your dog can skip out on you if it is ever off-lead it is a "wild" animal? Of course not. Backyard chickens? WIld? Nope. We need to get our definitions correct if this discussion is to mean anything. Honeybees are clearly domesticated, that is, changed by the people that manage them so that they "fit" with us better. They can, therfore, be feral in that they excape and fend for themselves. The definaiton of feral is not time dependant. Any domesticated animal that is running loose and taking care of itself, regardless of the amount of time it is in that state, is feral. Keith "if no one can agree on terms, you will never get the ideas strait" Benson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:40:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees quote: Honeybees are clearly domesticated, that is, changed by the people that manage them so that they "fit" with us better. Hmmm. If they are so "domesticated" how come it is when I bumped into a hive this morning they came boiling out and tried to sting the whizz out of me? How come it is I have to carry this stinking smoke pot with me all throughout the bee yard? How come I can't work without a veil except for a couple of weeks in the middle of summer, lest I get stung on the eyeball? Something from their long distant past makes them head straight for a shining eyeball, and I can tell you nobody ever bred THAT out of them. isis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:00:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Informed Comments our friend writes: There have been a number of reports on this list that suggests that many feral bees are somewhat genetically dissimilar to most "owned" bees. I do not have the references at my fingertips, nor do I have any intention of finding them - interested parties are welcome to use the search feature. Why? Because it is irrelevant. Comment: Well, I did a search for "somewhat genetically dissimilar" but funny how nothing turned up. You refer to unnamed reports on the one hand and on the other say: well science doesn't matter anway. Don't bother me with facts; I already believe what I want. It's a small wonder there are so few serious bee researchers on this list. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:09:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees In-Reply-To: <51c00c51f400.51f40051c00c@southeast.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Benson wrote: ...Bees in > hives are owned, > managed, bred, and have specific traits selected by > humans. Should they > take off, voila, instant ferals. When I first seen Keiths name responding to a post I was involved in. I figured, oh no, "I'm in the hot seat again". ;>) I am making an asserted efforts not to be too controversial in my posts. In my own laymen terms,,, This what Keith mentioned is I think a very good point. I'm assuming, that once the bees are free of mans domain and control, breeding is then shifted in future generations toward natural selecting of traits required to survive in the wild state. IMO, Domestic ferals not having a few traits needed to adapt will be less fit and unable to influence the genetic pool to a large degree. And thus more successful colonies that have a few of these traits needed to survive on their own will be more fit. And studies have shown fit colonies not only produce drones with a higher chance of mating, they also have a significantly higher proportion of offspring sired than drones from that mated from less successful colonies. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:06:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Informed Comments MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: Isis Glass Date: Tuesday, November 8, 2005 3:00 pm Subject: [BEE-L] Informed Comments > our friend writes: > There have been a number of reports on this list that suggests that > many feral bees are somewhat genetically dissimilar to most "owned" > bees. I > do not have the references at my fingertips, nor do I have any > intentionof finding them - interested parties are welcome to use > the search > feature. Why? Because it is irrelevant. > > Comment: > > Well, I did a search for "somewhat genetically dissimilar" but > funny how > nothing turned up. I believe you are kidding. I would be surprised if that did turn up anything with that as your search phrase. Folks familiar with a real search engine would not have used such a phrase. Look for feral or ferals and cross reference to Joe Waggle or naturebee as I believe it was he who last mentioned this work. I may be wrong about the Waggle cross reference, but it you put your mind to it, you will find the info. > You refer to unnamed reports on the one hand and on the other say: > wellscience doesn't matter anway. Don't bother me with facts; I > already believe > what I want. My point wanders alone, missed in its entirety. I said that when discussing the definition of domesticated and feral as we were, that the genetic similarity or lack thereof of these populations was irrelevant. Feral dogs are not markedly genetically dissimilar to owned dogs. I suspect you are the first person to ever suggest that I would say that science doesn't matter. Thanks, I got a chuckle out of that. > It's a small wonder there are so few serious bee researchers on > this list. Interesting you should say that . . . . Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:24:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Informed Comments In-Reply-To: <200511082000.jA8Jv9kx009018@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Isis Glass wrote: > > Well, I did a search for "somewhat genetically > dissimilar" but funny how > nothing turned up. I post these as a show of kindness for you to read. I do not want to get involved in defending the articles or any information contained on them, and will not try, 'not responsible for content'. Enjoy! http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/scientfic_note.htm http://www.beesource.com/news/article/floridaferalsurvivor.htm > It's a small wonder there are so few serious bee > researchers on this list. They are here! Several researchers have contacted me off list to help when I have questions or needed help. Believe me, it makes a person feel so good when folks that are extremely busy somehow find time to personally assist you. I would Imagine that it is much too time consuming to get involved in the conversations, so they choose to mostly lurk. But I do eagerly watch for Adrian, Zack and others that make a post now and then. It is IMO, wonderful that they somehow are able to 'make time' from their work to talk occasionally. Thanks! Submitted for your viewing pleasure: http://www.frappr.com/smallcellorganicbeekeepers/photo/445674 Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:03:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar In-Reply-To: <000601c5e46e$24068630$69d8d618@D98T9541> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I finally got around to reading my Nov ABJ last night, and yep, type 55 HFCS is 23% moisture and 77% solids, presuably all available sugar of some sort, mostly fructose. Lionel wrote: I just got off the phone with Steve in the lab at Cargill Corn Sweetener plant in Decatur, Alabama. He said that "55" is 77% solids. Which is 23% water. I found my old ABJ where I asked this question in the classroom. Jerry Hayes passed along the question to Steve Martin of ADM, who also confirmed the 23% moisture, adding that type 42 HFCS is 29% moisture. Check out the ABJ, Volume 141, number 12 (Dec 2001) page 860. To get us on track, the formulas then work out like this: a) Cost of container of HFCS / pounds in container = cost per pound of syrup b) cost per pound of syrup / .77 = cost per pound of sugar in type 55 HFCS. If I can still get that 5-gallon bucket (57.5 pounds) for $17.25, then my cost per pound of syrup is ($17.25 / 57.5 lbs) = .30 cents per pound of syrup. But if only 77% is sugar, then my cost per pound of sugar is (.30 cents / .77) = .39 cents per pound of sugar in that bucket of HFCS Now I can compare the cost of HFCS to granulated sucrose. Thanks for all your patience. We learn together! Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:31:59 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees In-Reply-To: <20051108200926.57713.qmail@web34308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >Domestic ferals ....and what, pray tell, is a domestic feral? Is it similar to the term used by U.S. airlines? There are domestic flights and there international flights. So, now we've heard about the domestic ferals, why not explain a bit about the international ferals. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:55:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Informed Comments In-Reply-To: <5264f252779e.52779e5264f2@southeast.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit So Keith, what is your definition of feral honeybees? Keith Benson wrote: I said that when discussing the definition of domesticated and feral as we were, that the genetic similarity or lack thereof of these populations was irrelevant. Feral dogs are not markedly genetically dissimilar to owned dogs. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:18:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees In-Reply-To: <51c00c51f400.51f40051c00c@southeast.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To add more entropy to the Universe, feral bees are bees in the wild. Bees in an apiary are no different than their wild cousins, if of the same race. So what is the difference between feral bees and bees in an apiary? The same three things your real estate agent says, location, location, location. The term feral is used for bees only to show their location. Nothing more. The problem with trying to get a good definition of feral is that, for some, it is actually a continuum, a picture that goes from clarity to someone's decision that the plant or animal is considered domesticated when it may not be. Is a tiger in a cage domesticated? Depends on the idiot that says it is and promptly gets mauled. The best definition of feral and domesticated is that in one state the behavior of the plant or animal allows a person to control them. But if the animal or plant escapes, it does not allow that control or fights it and reverts to its wild state. Bees are not domesticated. A feral colony is not much different than a managed colony if the bees are of the same race. You can have angry Italians in an apiary or in a tree. You can also have gentle Italians in both places. One problem we have is in looking at our apiaries, with their bees from away and comparing them with whatever bees are in the area, which are probably from another apiary and a different race. Just because the feral bees are different does not make our bees domesticated. To say that an animal is feral if it leaves the house is foolish. A cat allowed out will act wild but comes home and uses the litter box and gets their kitty litter. The cat that is feral, does neither. Catch that cat and you will know the difference between a domesticated cat and a feral cat. But put an empty hive box in a tree and you can capture a feral colony of bees which will act no different than your other colonies. Put a litter box in a forest to lure a feral cat and you will be called terminally stupid. Which is my opinion of this whole discussion. Bill Truesdell (Sins can be forgiven but stupid is forever.) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:33:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Informed Comments In-Reply-To: <200511082000.jA8Jv9kx009018@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isis Glass wrote: > It's a small wonder there are so few serious bee researchers on this list. You have not only hit the nail on the head but driven it to another planet. I have not bothered to post until today, thinking that Allen would leap in and point out the high level of blovating currently on the list (not you Isis), but then remembered he is disregarding certain posters. Isis, I admire your Sisyphisian labor. Or, in view of the content of the posts you are dealing with, maybe it is more like Hercules and the Augean stables. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:01:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees In-Reply-To: <43714056.2030707@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bill Truesdell wrote: > Bees are not domesticated. I'm staying out of this argument. But apologize that I'm getting very confused trying to follow discussion. How could A Study by Dr. RINDERER, 'Chalkbrood Susceptibility in Russian and Domestic Honeybees' that appeared in the American Bee Journal then be done? Thanks. http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/64133000/PDFFiles/422-Fassbinder-Orth.pdf Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:25:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees In-Reply-To: <6b053aac6dbe6122ce94e15beab3a36c@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen wrote: >Domestic ferals ....and what, pray tell, is a domestic feral? Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- Marks' Reply: An oxymoron? --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 21:40:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell Hi Dee and Everyone, I must confess, I don't really understand much beyond the elementary 101 basics of genetics. I have attempted to steady it, in depth, several different times. But each time, after several months of intensive effort, I end up more confused than when I started and have abandoned my efforts. So, it wouldn't take much to surprise me concerning genetics. And I think there are lots of surprises for those who understand more than I do. :>) I've seen some very interesting behavior when bees are on small cell comb. And there are some indications that some of that behavior is learned and passed on. Just how it, and if it, is passed is a mystery to me. Maybe by genetic propensity? Or? Best Regards Dennis Hoping you are enjoying your new home -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:17:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell Hi Guys, While attempting to study genetics I did little more than steady the book, I think :>))) The success I've had with my small cell bees, etc. had been noticed by one of my commercial beekeeping friends. I hadn't seem him for a few years, but stopped by while out riding my motorcyle. His bees were in deep trouble with the mites. Many mites could be seen in most of his treated hives. He knew of my success with small cell and asked for my advice. My first attempts with small cell were from a commercial perspective. And that momentum carried my for several years. But I hadn't thought about it, that way, for some time. I left commercial beekeeping behind in 2000. It's one thing to be successful with tens of non-migratory hives. It's another thing to be successful with small cell, in a migratory operation, with thousands of hives. Regards Dennis Thinking success can be measured in a variety of ways -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 03:29:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees In-Reply-To: <6b053aac6dbe6122ce94e15beab3a36c@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The English language is too flexible at times. Definitions are not necessarily set in stone. Quite often what is "known" to be the definition of a word in a particular industry or social group is not th strict definition found in the dictionary. I believe that to most beekeepers the term "feral" bees refers to a colony of bees(the bees not the hive) that are not in equipment provided by a beekeeper. Therefore unmanaged. Joe Waggle will correct me, please. But I think that his "Domestic ferals" are swarms that he has harvested from perhaps remote areas and /or colonies that he has removed from the walls of someones home. Whether any genetic difference exists or not, the comb that these bees make (without provided foundation, I believe) and some of their behaviors are what"Organic Beekeepers" and Small Cell Beekeepers are trying to get people to see so that conventional treatments don't have to be used. Wouldn't that be nice. These ideas require a leap of faith that most beeke! epers aren't ready to make. I'm skeptical, but I'm also interested to see where this line of thinking will take us all in the future. I'd like to think that all it takes to combat varroa and AFB is a change in the size of the cells in the comb. I wish it were true. I just haven't taken that leap yet. But I'm going to keep my eyes and hopefully my mind open to the possibility that they are right. There's an old joke about Unitarian Universalists that goes, After death Unitarian Universalists would rather go to a discussion about heaven than to go see heaven for themselves. Well that's me. Mark Dick Allen wrote: >Domestic ferals ....and what, pray tell, is a domestic feral? Is it similar to the term used by U.S. airlines? There are domestic flights and there international flights. So, now we've heard about the domestic ferals, why not explain a bit about the international ferals. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 07:07:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <20051108165508.8093.qmail@web34306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-785BDDD > For many years I have suffered devastating colony >losses ...Due probably to the compounding effects of >varroa, TM ...I've trapped >several swarms in the isolated ridge woodlands that >are showing 'remarkable brood patterns' and excelling >in other good traits in comb building and foraging >zeal. I remember you posting on Norland about your problems. I thought at the time you were having problems with TM. Now you have found some bees that have great patterns and resist TM. Perhaps it isn't that the bees are "ferals" but rather that you have found some good stock. The same could have been "found" by selecting from "domestic" stock. It's just that you didn't have to do the selection. Winter...the great equalizer...did it for you. In my opinion. The same could be found in my stock, after selecting for these traits...and there is nothing "feral" about my bees. >I remember reading a fascinating article that Kirk >Webster wrote. He mentioned the practice of trucking >some of his mating nucs in the isolated woodland hills >for mating. The reasons (please correct me if I'm >wrong) if I recall was to gain more acclimated >genetics from that of the ferals. I recently talked to Kirk about this. We were talking about supercedure queens...good or bad. I find that many of my supercedure queens are very good, and feel that colonies that supercede successfully, should be selected for...better than swarming to requeen themselves...yes? And I wondered about the use of isolated mating yards...are we leaving something important behind? Are there traits...even in some of our weaker stock...that we would lose by using isolated mating yards? Anyway, Kirk says the reason he has isolated mating yards is to get away from all the bees in the valley. His valley locations have bee yards on top of bee yards, on top of bee yards. Kirk will be speaking at Lewisburg, PA on November 11... Are you attending his lecture? You should, and then you can ask him these questions. His bees have been untreated for several years. He says they are getting better at tolerating varroa. In the past, he blows the bees out in the fall in colonies suffering from PMS. This year, he is seeing healthy bees and brood, and hasn't had to blow many out. No ferals, no small cells. Just years of selection starting with Russians starting in the late 90's. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/162 - Release Date: 11/5/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 04:45:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees In-Reply-To: <20051109112944.22713.qmail@web32102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- mark berninghausen wrote: ... But I > think that his "Domestic ferals" are swarms that he > has harvested from perhaps remote areas and /or > colonies that he has removed from the walls of > someones home. The bees I have which were 'once ferals', can be described as 'domestic ferals' I guess, now that I am applying selective pressure to suit my own needs in my bees they are by definition domestic. But the main point I am concerned with is that they are distinguished as 'derived from that of the feral population' as opposed to commercially bred bees. I don't believe all ferals are created equal and I needed to do a fair amount of weeding out of poor genetics. ...I'm skeptical, but I'm also > interested to see where this line of thinking will > take us all in the future... It is good to be skeptical. But my line of thinking wasn't pulled out of thin air. I would say more accurately I am following my line of thinking based on actual observations made. Observations of bees are leading my thinking, and dictating the direction I must follow. When you collect as many swarms for several years as I have, you begin to see patterns develop which show the quality bees are coming from. When I for example collected 2 ferals from structures this year from within a mile from another beekeeper. Both performed so bad in the ridge, I culled one within a single month, the other made it only 2 months. When I collected swarms trapped in deep woodlands, (3 this year) excellent out mating was noted in all 3 and they out performed in my ridge apiary. Bees drawing a bit smaller cell are more often known to be found in a totally different area in farmland lowland. So somthing is goind on here, all bees are not the same, there are differences. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 04:24:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Alabama state beekeepers' meeting In-Reply-To: <437143BD.8050605@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How many on this list are going to the Alabama state beekeepers' meeting this weekend? Respond to my included e-mail address if you care to do so. Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama mws@frontiernet.net __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 04:13:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees In-Reply-To: <6b053aac6dbe6122ce94e15beab3a36c@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dick Allen wrote: > >Domestic ferals > > ....and what, pray tell, is a domestic feral? > why not explain a bit about the international > ferals. > > Regards, > Dick Allen > Are they the ones what sneeks in by boat? Like whut snuck in to Florida the last several years? Mike in lover Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:28:24 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Succeeding with small cell/supersedure In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051109064508.03af0c60@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Whatever the true meaning of the word 'feral' is, Mike's explanation below seems about right to me, my course in a similar circumstance would have been selection, which can show good results in five years and even better in 7+ years. > I thought at the time you were having problems with TM. > Now you have found some bees that have great patterns and resist TM. > Perhaps it isn't that the bees are "ferals" but rather that you have > found some good stock. The same could have been "found" by selecting > from "domestic" stock. It's just that you didn't have to do the > selection. Winter...the great equalizer...did it for you. Mike goes on to say... > talking about supercedure queens...good or bad. I find that many of > my supercedure queens are very good, and feel that colonies that > supercede successfully, should be selected for...better than swarming > to requeen themselves...yes? I am a person that selects strongly for supersedure, but I am doing it with a race of bees that exhibits the behaviour strongly as part of it's make up and has a mating frequency that matches the tendency, (is much higher than the Italian types that are prevalent in US). If you start to select for supersedure and do not get a corresponding increase in mating frequency, you will run the risk of a degree of inbreeding that you can only overcome by deliberately introducing extra genes into the closed system that forms the next part of your post... > isolated mating yards...are we leaving something > important behind? Are there traits...even in some of our weaker > stock...that we would lose by using isolated mating yards? So to use a phrase that I often use 'horses for courses' I would suggest that you will either run into inbreeding problems or inadvertently select for genes of a racial type that you have been trying to eliminate (amm). Any isolated mating system needs to have large numbers of colonies and wide diversity within it's sphere of influence. This is hardest to achieve with Italian bees, because they exhibit the lowest mating frequency of all races and thus require a larger number of colonies within the system. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:35:33 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Small Fall Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James suggested: > What about absconding from varroa riddled colonies, with a dwindled > workforce? Would they abscond as a swarm, or just disperse? Could these just be mating swarms where queens are superseding? Bob wrote: > A little talked about ( and I have NEVER seen in print) reason for spread > of > varroa is the absconding of workers from a heavily varroa infested hive. This was certainly printed in leaflets issued by our National Bee Unit (NBU) in 1996 and probably before that. > My experiments with II queens and then finding workers of another race > making up a third of the workers (at times) show without a doubt drifting > of > workers between hives is far more common than our beekeeping literature > would have us believe. I recall that the NBU (then located in Stratford-upon-Avon) did some experiments on drifting as part of their work on the likely spread of varroa (probably in the early 1990's). They marked worker bees and then looked for them in their other apiaries around the district. I do not have any data but, from conversations with NBU staff at the time, I remember that it was shown that worker bees drifted into apiaries some distance (> 1 mile) away. I wonder if any other research has been done on this - certainly easy to do. > It is my opinion (and might cause a roar as not the opinion of most > beekeeping authors) that in most hives the guard bees do not do a very > good > job of stopping worker drifters at the entrance. Does this not depend on two things: 1 Whether the 'drifter' comes bearing gifts and 2 The current state of the flow - guards are always more vigilant when a flow ends. > Drifting drones is the method of varroa spread in the apiary other than > robbing they tell us! I would change the statement to drifting drones AND > WORKERS in the apiary with many hives. This must be correct. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:45:02 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I posted: > We know that if the virus is not present then colonies can carry very > large loads of varroa without these symptoms being present. Bob, I was rather taken aback by your response: > What we know is that Norman Carrick & Brenda Ball (U.K.) are pushing the > above hypothesis. Are you saying that they are wrong? > The only solution Brenda gave was that if we could get the varroa > control in the 90% range the dwv problem would disappear. If there is no other solution at present, what did you expect? > We already new (sic) the above would solve the problem. the U.K. > provided no solution to the problem. (Note for Brenda: Must try harder and provide only solutions in future!) >So we are back to varroa munching on the pupa vectoring the disease. > Vectoring - yes, but I understood your post to mean that the damage was > caused by the 'munching' (define!) per se. > THERE IS NO WAY TO RID A HIVE OF VIRUS SPORES! Other than > melt the comb and boil the frames which is not going to happen . Spores??? How would melting comb and boiling frames eliminate viruses from the bees? > We call our virus problems PMS in the U.S. > We use the term PMS also. > It is wonderful Bailey named a bunch of virus for us beekeepers but > without a solution... First understanding - then solutions? > In the U.S. beekeepers have not wanted to see our precious research > dollars > poured into a virus project which has no solution. Without research, how can we know whether there are solutions? > After four years of research on the Primorsky Russian bee I can say that > the bee can carry a large varroa load in a hive > with DWV spores and not get the virus! I have laid awake at night > wondering why! The Russian bee shoots big holes in the U.K. hypothesis! Not if the bee is resistant to the virus and is able to carry it as an inapparent infection? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:43:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar If I recall from previous discussions here research has shown sugar syrup to be a better winter feed then HFCS? Its hard to say 100% in the spring the actual source of deadouts. But if its true that sugar syrup is a better feed and some percentage of colonies thrive as a result, in my way of thinking, then the analysis of the economics of sugar syrup versus corn syrup should factor that in too. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:23:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Prices/comps: HFCS vs. Sugar In-Reply-To: <200511091543.jA9FXAR6011325@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > If I recall from previous discussions here research has shown sugar > syrup to be a better winter feed then HFCS? True, but only slightly. You will see it in the lab but not in the apiary. Boiled sugar syrup was worse than HFCS. But, again, not so you will notice. Plus, there are different HFCS formulations which also have different winter survival rates. And acid hydrolized HFCS is fatal for winter feed for bees. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:18:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, Peter said: Bob, I was rather taken aback by your response: I did a short blunt post on a complicated subject. Sorry! >Are you saying that they are wrong? I am saying that keeping a hive free of dwv virus spores is almost impossible. Words from the U.K.! Interesting hypothesis of theirs to be sure but does not exactly fit what we have seen in the U.S.. I certainly respect their work and trying to help with the U.S. problem. > (Note for Brenda: Must try harder and provide only solutions in future!) Hello ! There is no solution! A dead end street ! >So we are back to varroa munching on the pupa vectoring the disease. > Vectoring - yes, but I understood your post to mean that the damage was caused by the 'munching' (define!) per se. Munching ( varroa feeding) is the root of the problem. Eliminate large scale varroa infestation on ALL virus problems become a non issue. Our bee labs told us this from the start. What difference does it make which virus killed your hive. Parasitic Mite syndrum (PMS) is the best way to aproach the subject with the average beekeeper. We have got good bee labs in the U.S. but they are not on a level of some private beekeeping research. Have the labs ever done any small cell research? Virus research? Virus spore research? Varroa tolerance research other than SMR? I could go on and on. > Spores??? How would melting comb and boiling frames eliminate viruses from the bees? By eliminating the source (other than the bees) of the virus. I was able to find almost no information on the virus spores of the three virus problems which were the problem in the U.S.. Private research suggests once a hive has had a large outbreak of DWV then when a new package if hived on those combs and the varroa levels approach a high level the PMS hive shows PMS faster than a hive on new comb. We have got an experiment going on right now testing the hypothesis. > First understanding - then solutions? Do you think a solution will be found? The understanding has not changed for me. Still the same PMS problem and the only solution is to keep varroa loads down. I admit I have become quite familiar with PMS doing varroa tolerance research and last year looking at over a 1000 deeps of combs with PMS in yards of another beekeeper. Some were melted and some recycled. They are the experiment. research > dollars > poured into a virus project which has no solution. Without research, how can we know whether there are solutions? How long will we chase a solution for PMS? I said: The Russian bee shoots big holes in the U.K. hypothesis! Not if the bee is resistant to the virus and is able to carry it as an inapparent infection? Dr. Shiminuki (retired head Beltsville Bee Lab) saw the Russian bee as being able to handle PMS over a decade ago. So lets drop the U.K. virus research and instead move to importing and incorporating the Russian into your breeding programs. Would be money well spent in my eyes! Every once in awhile at the horse track a "long shot" comes in and pays big! But it is a proven fact that if you went to the track every week and only bet the "long shots" you will soon be broke. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:58:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: GM Bees are coming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A new method for rearing genetically manipulated honey bee workers Centre for Integrative Genetics and Department of Animal and Aquacultural Sciences, Norwegian University of Life Sciences, PO Box 5003, 1432 Aas, Norway Published online 1 June 2005 Abstract – Advanced functional genomic research on the honey bee (Apis mellifera) will require methods that allow researchers to work with bees derived from genetically manipulated embryos. We present a technique that allows manipulated honey bee eggs to be introduced into hives so the larvae can be reared in a colony setting. We have developed a modified hive that allows for the manipulation of honey bee embryos. We have demonstrated that manipulated honey bee eggs are accepted by nursing colonies and that they appear to develop into normal bees. The technique seems to overcome the main challenges associated with in vitro rearing, and this is encouraging because the need for practical tools for rearing genetically manipulated honey bees is likely to increase over the next few years. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:29:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: Fire in Vermont MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Most here know Rick... MIDDLESEX - About 40 barrels of honey and his off-site bee hives are all that's left of Richard Drutchas' Bee-Haven Honey Farm, delivering a tough blow to a sweet business that sends Vermont honey all around the nation. The Monday night fire that destroyed the barn and honey house at his Putnamville home caused an estimated $100,000 worth of damage, Drutchas estimated. Drutchas, who was home at the time, said the fire began in the roughly 30-by-60 foot structure at around 6:30 p.m.. Drutchas said he built the honey house addition onto the 100-year-old barn about three years ago, to use for extracting and bottling honey. Firefighters were able to save a second older barn and a connecting structure from burning. Both Drutchas and fire officials have attributed the fire to a faulty electrical source, possibly a honey heater or a new lighting system in the honey house. "I was heating up some honey, and it's funny because I've been heating up honey up there for the past 20 years," Drutchas said on Tuesday. "You'd think a breaker would have popped or something." For the whole story... http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051109/NEWS/51109 0362/1002 Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 Kim@BeeCulture.com www.BeeCulture.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:36:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Fire in Vermont MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For the whole story... http://tinyurl.com/dw47h Aaron Morris - thinking tinyurl.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:18:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051109064508.03af0c60@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Michael Palmer wrote: > I remember you posting on Norland about your > problems. Yes thanks for the kind assistance back then, you helped me a great deal in focusingit the right direction toward a solution. You remember then my average winter die off was an average 50% and fluctuated to 90% to 100% every few years. Yes, I believe you gave very good advice, some major causes were due to lack of TM resistance and substandard genetics. ...Perhaps it isn't > that the bees are > "ferals" but rather that you have found some good > stock. I agree Mike, could be ferals, then again, could be that it is not, I'm open minded here. That I am finding good stock in places where you would not expect much influence from domestics such as the woodlands is perplexing to me, the more isolated the better, it's not what I had expected to see at all in poor forage areas. ...supercedure > queens...good or bad.... ...should be selected for... Is there a particular time of the year these supersedure colonies are more prone to supersede? I have seen this trait in a few colonies that had a perfectly fine queen that was performing well. I just brushed it off as an 'oddity' and did not make record of it. I'm seeing it more in late summer and even nearer to fall. Maybe it would be better to record this type of thing when I see it. If you would please, how is Kirk doing his isolated mating yards?,,,, what;s the ratio mating nucs to does he use drone colonies or regular colonies to provide drones?,,,or do you believe he is counting on the ferals to pick up the slack in providing drones? I might be able to make it to Lewisburg to see Kirk. Would enjoy hearing his lecture. In the past, he > blows the bees out in > the fall in colonies suffering from PMS. The PMS, I am still having trouble with. What tools are you using to determine the level of PMS that would necessitate blowing out the colony? Are you also looking at other symptoms here such as chewing out etc? My colonies are showing signs of PMS, but it dosn;t seem to be affecting performance as it has in the past, I see it, but am still getting a good surplus in spite, but it is something I believe I need to select against. Thanks! Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:06:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Unique Honeybee Presentations In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what could be added to my honeybee presentations to help make them more interesting and unique. I'm thinking about incorporating an interactive short course on the 'Waggle Dance' into my presentations for the kids. Possibly making a simple display with the 'sun' and 'hive'. Then doing a waggle dance with a toy bee. The kids then could use a simple chart to figure on a map the forage location the bee is dancing. And NO, don't suggest I do the waggle dance myself! ;>) Tired of the same old trivia "how many trips,,, teaspoon of honey,, etc." The kids can take that stuff home with them to quiz their older siblings. ;>) Probably also would be good to have some suggestions that are 'bee-less' due to school regulations and such. I got kids stuff if you are interested here: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeod3nx/id5.html in sections 12 & 13 Thanks! Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:20:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Fire in Vermont In-Reply-To: <8518F15BB956014C90B2E2CC0D4C4F9F0142ACDC@w2k3telnet.root.l ocal> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-57222486 > Most here know Rick... I talked to Rick yesterday morning, after the fire, and again today. After the initial..."Now what am I going to do" feelings, he seems pretty upbeat today. A local beekeeper has offered the use of his honey house, and he's coming by tomorrow to pick up some empty honey pails so he can service some accounts. Those of you who know him will appreciate what he said today..."Well, I guess I'll wind up with a better honey house after all." Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/162 - Release Date: 11/5/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:34:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <20051109231808.22761.qmail@web34315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-57222486 > finding good stock in places where you would not >expect much influence from domestics such as the >woodlands is perplexing to me, Actually, that's exactly where I would expect you to find what you are finding. Away from those "domestic" bees that you had such a bad time with. Where winter has had its way. > Is there a particular time of the year these >supersedure colonies are more prone to supersede? I think it happens all the time, but maybe you notice it later in the season, after the fact? Are you finding multiple queens in these superceded colonies? >If you would please, how is Kirk doing his isolated... Joe, you'll have to ask Kirk these questions...so my suggestion is to attend the meeting. > What tools >are you using to determine the level of PMS that would >necessitate blowing out the colony? but it is something I believe I need >to select against. Again...I'm not blowing bees out, Kirk is. Ask him. I would say though, that you can tell which colonies won't make our Vermont winter by looking at the brood. With advanced PMS, where the bees are digging out brood, and the symptoms almost mimic EFB or the like, it would be obvious which colonies to blow out. I bet this varroa tolerance business will boil down to PMS resistance..in the long run. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/162 - Release Date: 11/5/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:30:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> THERE IS NO WAY TO RID A HIVE OF VIRUS SPORES! Maybe I'm revealing my ignorance here, but do viruses produce spores? allen In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as to be understood by everyone, something that no one ever knew before. But in poetry, it's the exact opposite. -- Paul Dirac -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:50:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several drive-by observations: 1.) finding bees that can withstand varroa, etc. is probably not that hard to do. The difficulty comes from finding bees that can do that,and which also have all the other desirable characteristics necessary for commercial success. 2.) small samples of random feral colonies may seem to reveal patterns, however, it is harder to prove that these patterns are meaningful and demonstrate real, enduring properties, especially as they are hard to monitor over years. 3.) it is not necessary to have correct explanations -- or even correct understanding -- in order to demonstrate or manage processes that work. allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:31:35 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051109212028.039bc050@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike & Joe > > Is there a particular time of the year these > >supersedure colonies are more prone to supersede? > > I think it happens all the time, but maybe you notice it later in the > season, after the fact? Are you finding multiple queens in these > superceded colonies? It can and does happen at any time, but there is some sort of link between late supersedure and multiple queens... Those colonies that exhibit queenright supersedure can do this very late in the season and such colonies are usually ones that produce a round of drones very late as well, thus reinforcing the trait, if it is selected for. I have sometimes wondered, but never seen any direct proof that in late queenright supersedure the younger of the two queens lays drones (or a large proportion of drones) and it is these that are the ones found in winter clusters. They would certainly be a few left early the next season, but I also am unsure of how viable such over wintered drones would be. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:18:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Canada Shares Oxalic Success with ABF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Canadian Honey Council successfully registered oxalic in Canada recently, and has now arranged to share their material (17 pounds of documents, was it? ...Plus hyperlinked CDs) with the with the ABF. The plan is present the material to the EPA. Apparently oxalic is expected to be accepted in the US as a bio-pesticide, a category for which testing and proof is less demanding than the main pesticide categories. allen Acquaintance, n.: A person whom we know well enough to borrow from, but not well enough to lend to. -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:19:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? In-Reply-To: <00ee01c5e5a7$263eb4b0$81ac5ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: >>> THERE IS NO WAY TO RID A HIVE OF VIRUS SPORES! >> > > Maybe I'm revealing my ignorance here, but do viruses produce spores? Nope Keith > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:16:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Maybe I'm revealing my ignorance here, but do viruses produce spores? Yes! Quite a bit of information exists about the the most famous virus spores like E boli being viable for a very long time. I only found one hit on deformed wing virus spores on google when I was doing dwv research. The site was a beekeeping site but can't remember the site at this minute but the answer to Allen's question is yes. Further research is needed on all the named virus spores. Maybe others can find net information and post? Thanks! I need to get to bed as I need to get up early as we are getting a tanker of fructose. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:21:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? In-Reply-To: <004701c5e56a$e6c52120$07bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: > By eliminating the source (other than the bees) of > the virus. I was able to > find almost no information on the virus spores of > the three virus problems > which were the problem in the U.S.. > A query Bob: Do viruses actually hold over via spores? Or do they maintain their viability through some other method of inactive survival until conditions support their active phase again. I know that AFB goes through the spore stage to survive but not sure that viruses do. Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:02:59 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: BeeMe 11 Subject: honey & pollen laboratory equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, I am trying to find more information about what a modern honey & pollen = laboratory have to look like. I know the standard equipment required = such as refractomer, honey colorimeter, pH meter, conuctivity meter, = microscope, etc. But what about HPLC and Spectrophotometer ? If someone = is using these equipment please share more information about brands = recommended. Should we have to use HPLC-MS for checking antibiotics in = honey or it is only money consuming and HPLC is quite enough for this = operations? Stefan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:50:35 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: GM Bees are coming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many of us wish they were not! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 04:09:41 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: honey & pollen laboratory equipment In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- BeeMe 11 wrote: > I am trying to find more information about what a > modern honey & pollen laboratory have to look like. Here are some links on this page for Palynology, Bee Labs and Palynologists that hope will be of assistance. http://www.geo.arizona.edu/palynology/web_pal.html You can maybe try a search 'Mellisopalynology' "the study of pollen in honey or other bee products such as bee baskets". Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:34:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Virus spores, NOT! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.dmturner.org/Teacher/Library/5thText/SimplePart4.html Viruses Is a cold caused by bacteria? No, the cause of a cold is a virus. A virus has DNA or similar materials in it, as cells do, and it is made out of the proteins which are the building blocks of cells, but it is not a cell. The virus does not belong to a kingdom of living things, because it is not clearly alive. It is a good example of the messiness of the natural world. Things do not always fit our explanations, which is why scientists keep looking for better explanations.=20 Virus reproduction Viruses, obviously, cannot make seeds or spores or eggs. They are not cells, so they cannot divide like protists and monerans. Yet they reproduce themselves. They do this in a fascinating way.=20 The virus attaches itself to a cell. It invades the cell and puts its DNA into the cell. DNA contains instructions which the cell must follow. The instructions are, very simply, to make more viruses just like the invader. The cell begins making viruses, and does not stop. Sometimes the new viruses fill the cell and make it explode. Other times the virus stays inside the cell for some time. Either way, a virus can make the organism it infects very ill.=20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:32:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? In-Reply-To: <00ee01c5e5a7$263eb4b0$81ac5ad1@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit allen dick wrote: >>> THERE IS NO WAY TO RID A HIVE OF VIRUS SPORES! > > > Maybe I'm revealing my ignorance here, but do viruses produce spores? Lots on google ("virus spores") that says yes they do, and they are the preferred method of WMD delivery. Interesting stuff. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:58:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Harrison Date: Wednesday, November 9, 2005 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [BEE-L] deformed wing virus? > >Maybe I'm revealing my ignorance here, but do viruses produce spores? > > Yes! Quite a bit of information exists about the the most famous virus > spores like E boli being viable for a very long time. No they do not. Fungi do, bacteria do, ferns do, other protists do, but virii do not. Are you refereing to Ebola or E. coli? The former is a non-spore forming virus, the latter is a bacteria. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:50:57 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Unique Honeybee Presentations In-Reply-To: <20051110010659.12496.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <20051110010659.12496.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, J. Waggle writes >I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what could be >added to my honeybee presentations to help make them >more interesting and unique. It is so different for different ages. Pre-school is like story telling, and they love to make a small candle - good for their "making" skills, but some need lots of praise and help. Older children like a demonstration hive if at all possible and can look at bees in more detail with a hand lens or low power microscope (dead worker bees, dead or live drones, bumble bees and solitary bees. How many eyes can you find??!! "What do you see?" is the best question. I remember handing out comb to a mixed group of families. Given a piece of comb, to that question, one child said he saw shapes with straight sides - how many sides - five. His mother said "no, they have 6". I said, show me. Indeed he pointed to a five-sided cell. Simple lessons with real bees, comb, honey and wax can expand their observation skills and dexterity, as well as enlarging their understanding and interest in life. A piece of honeycomb to taste is excellent for all ages. They can be asked to look out for bees and make notes on what they looked like, what flowers they visited, where they lived (if nests can be found). They can also be encouraged to put out artificial nests in the school grounds. We had small black solitary bees in the walls of our local primary school - it was vital to get them to realise they were harmless, or they stamped on them as they crawled on the ground. I got my daughter to carry just hatched bees on her hand to show how safe they were. The nearby bush had mating clouds of bees which only I had noticed, characteristic of this species. There was also a leaf-cutter bee making a nest in a vertical hole in a hand rail post, which children did notice and commented on. Alas, one 9 year old poked a pencil into it. There are opportunities for detective work, observation and conservation and to learn to respect all forms of life and especially difference! even in school grounds. PS Racism comes from fear of difference - hence the ! Have fun -- James Kilty -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:27:31 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Small Fall Swarms In-Reply-To: <001501c5e543$39a56f80$d1782a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 To my suggestion >> What about absconding from varroa riddled colonies, with a dwindled >> workforce? Peter Edwards asked >Would they abscond as a swarm, or just disperse? Could these just be mating >swarms where queens are superseding? I have had mated queens in very small swarms. One came to a cottage chimney recently, and taken to my home by the owner (lent a bee suit and nuc and with d.i.y. instructions to smoke out) barely covered 2 14"x8" frames. Autumn (fall) is a good time for this absconding on account of varroa numbers and parallels the starvation absconding occasionally reported. -- James Kilty -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:27:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: honey & pollen laboratory equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:02:59 BeeMe 11 wrote: "I am trying to find more information about what a modern honey & pollen laboratory have to look like." Hi Stefan, I really do not know exactly what purpose you have in mind for such a facility or where it would be built, if funded. However, it is certain to say that you are looking for something that is way out of the ballpark for most of us who read this list except for the university and corporate entities, and most of them just could not fund such a laboratory, or laboratories, at the drop of a hat. Many of this countries' state departments of agriculture have most of the equipment you have mentioned, although only a few have the latest state of the art equipment. >From the archives a favorite passage of mine is one penned by James Fischer who in, http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa? A2=ind0212C&L=bee- l&D=1&O=D&F=&S=&X=3EBAF8734DD03C7E88&Y=Carolinabeeman@hotmail.com&P=1897, talks about the limits of analysis and the laboratory equipment available to achieve such analysis. He ends his post with: “jim (who wants a ThermoQuest Surveyor MS Pump and Autosampler, ThermoQuest Finnigan TSQ 7000 with API2, Xcalibur, Version 1.2, Surveyor AS, Version 1.2 SP 1, Surveyor MS pump, Version 1.2, and TSQ MS, Version 1.1 ...for Christmas, 'cause it appears that his pretty little HPLC set-up is destined for the scrap heap.)” For pollen analysis I suggest that you contact Texas A&M University, Professor Vaughan M. Bryant, Ph. D. at 308F Anthropology Bldg, 4352 TAMU, College Station, TX 77843-4352 by snail mail or vbryant@tamu.eduby Email. For about $50.00 bucks along with a small honey sample Dr. Bryant can tell you ALL about the pollen and the floral varieties contained within a sample. In short, send small samples and make small payments. Cheers, Chuck Norton PS. Jim, did Santa come through with your Christmas wish? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:34:39 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? In-Reply-To: <004701c5e56a$e6c52120$07bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 In a discussion of economic threshold levels on the Irish Beekeeping List, Norman Carreck, wrote: The important thing to bear in mind is that some viruses are more virulent than others, and therefore, logically, there would be a different threshold for each virus. It may seem counter intuitive, but experimental work has demonstrated that a greater number of mites are required to cause a outbreak of the more virulent viruses such as slow paralysis virus (SPV) or acute paralysis virus (APV), than with viruses that are not rapidly fatal such as deformed wing virus (DWV). If you think about it, though, all becomes clear, because a virus which kills the bee in a few days stands a much lower chance of being passed on to another bee. The figure of 2500 mites, on which the Varroa Calculator was based, was based on data from about 70 colonies studied by both Rothamsted and CSL over a number of years. Some of these colonies, in the early 1990s had no viruses present, and survived with huge numbers of mites present (I think 24.000 was the record), but the remainder had one or more viruses present and succumbed at a much lower level, so 2,500 was chosen as a realistic level for practical use. The pattern of virus incidence undoubtedly changes over time. In the early stages of an outbreak, when mite numbers are large, the more virulent viruses predominate: APV in continental Europe, SPV in the UK, and now Kashmir bee virus (KBV) in New Zealand. In the UK, because most beekeepers control mites effectively, SPV has become rarely a problem, but DWV is now universally present in colonies. and to my point about viruses multiplying in mites: Although this has been suggested a number of times, and has appeared in a number of scientific papers, I have as yet seen no convincing evidence that viruses multiply within mites. All the evidence suggests that mites are purely passive vectors. and to my point about wounding being an issue connected with virus multiplication: There is no doubt that DWV is now much more common than it was pre Varroa, and more importantly, the mite transmits to a life stage (i.e. brood) in which it was not present previously. I don't think there is any particular evidence that the physical wounding has a harmful effect, but there is growing evidence that mite feeding does actually interfere with the bee's immune system allowing viruses which would not normally multiply, to do so. I hope this makes a useful contribution. The longer a colony can keep off dwv, (i.e. not show the signs) the more likely it will become one of my breeders. -- James Kilty -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 06:35:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? In-Reply-To: <000a01c5e5ad$8aae2a60$04bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Yes! Quite a bit of information exists about the the > most famous virus > spores like E boli being viable for a very long > time. Bob, If you're talking about Escherichia coli I hate to poke a hole in your balloon but the definition of E coli is as follows: Escherichia coli (usually abbreviated to E. coli) is one of the main species of bacteria that live in the lower intestines of warm-blooded animals (including birds and mammals)... E coli is a bactirium, not a virus. Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 06:38:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Virus definition In-Reply-To: <000a01c5e5ad$8aae2a60$04bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=5997 The web site listed above gives a pretty good definition of a virus. Mike __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:44:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Corrected url (Was: honey & pollen laboratory equipment) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chuck Norton provided an URL to a post by James Fischer. The correct url is: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0212C&L=bee-l&P=R699 Or better yet: http://tinyurl.com/8gpow Aaron Morris - thinking tinyurl.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:24:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Unique Honeybee Presentations MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=Windows-1252; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Do your schools have science fairs? Preparing an entry on bees, and searching out the information and materials to prepare their own presentation, might spark a deeper interest. My own beekeeping began with me and my then high school age son working together. I ordered one 2 lb package of bees, a friend donated some used equipment for one colony and my son went to the school library and brought home an ancient copy of "The Hive and The Honey Bee" We followed the pages of the book as the season progressed, and ended with over 100 pounds of honey, that first year. Very rewarding , and such a good empathy with my somewhat rebellious teenager. Pluses all round! Eunice PS I got only one beesting, and he none, that first summer -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:28:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, >Are you refereing to Ebola or E. coli? Ebola (sorry for the typo) >The former is a non-spore forming virus Not according to everything I have read. 573,000 hits for virus spores on google. Perhaps the term *virus spores* paints all virus with a broad brush. DWV spores is what beekeeping researchers have said. Based on their input we are running large and expensive tests to determine it a swarm (package) hived on prior PMS comb is more susceptible than a swarm hived on new comb. Perhaps the word " virus spore" is slang for whatever agent is present on the comb . I am not a researcher so will gladly admit to being wrong if indeed a virus does not use spores. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:37:29 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Unique Honeybee Presentations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The kids then could use a simple chart to figure on a map the forage location the bee is dancing." You should read Adian's book Anatomy of a Controversy: The Question of a "Language" Among Bees. Adrian M. Wenner and Patrick H. Wells. Columbia Univ. Press (1990). ISBN 0-231-06552-3. There will probably be one in a library near you. You could very well be teaching false information to the kids. If you need a book for your personal library, contact Adrian first since he may still have some that he can sell less expensively than what you can get on line. Regards Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:49:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Harrison Date: Thursday, November 10, 2005 10:28 am Subject: Re: [BEE-L] deformed wing virus? > Hello All, > > >Are you refereing to Ebola or E. coli? > > Ebola (sorry for the typo) > > >The former is a non-spore > forming virus > > Not according to everything I have read. > > 573,000 hits for virus spores on google. Perhaps the term *virus > spores*paints all virus with a broad brush. Yep - and the wrong paint. I did the same. Most are pages that discuss bacterial spores and viruses. Not viral spores. > DWV spores is what beekeeping researchers have said. They are incorrect. > Perhaps the word " virus spore" is slang for whatever agent is > present on > the comb . That may be, but it is technically incorrect. > I am not a researcher so will gladly admit to being wrong if indeed > a virus > does not use spores. OK - while I spend most of my time doing clinical work and not research, I do spend a fair bit of time dealing with viruses. Viruses do not form spores. Some are environmentally resistant, but they are not spores. "And unlike Bacillus anthracis, which can survive in a dormant spore state, viruses tend to lose potency when subject to dry conditions, making them less likely to be spread through the mail." The above is from one of those google sites. >From Dictionary.com: 1. A small, usually single-celled reproductive body that is highly resistant to desiccation and heat and is capable of growing into a new organism, produced especially by certain bacteria, fungi, algae, and nonflowering plants. 2. A dormant nonreproductive body formed by certain bacteria in response to adverse environmental conditions. and n : a small usually single-celled reproductive body produced by many plants and some protozoans and that develops into a new individual; "a sexual spore is formed after the fusion of gametes" Please note the exclusion of the term virus. To be a spore, one has to ahve been a cell. Virii, having never been a cell, cannot be a spore. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:06:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Paul Law Subject: Bees have a much more sophisticated visual system than previously thought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bees have a much more sophisticated visual system than previously thought http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1765&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:26:31 +0100 Reply-To: jorn_johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: [BEE-L] Unique Honeybee Presentations In-Reply-To: <002101c5e615$0b4ffba0$6401a8c0@S0000999999> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]På > vegne af Tim Vaughan > Sendt: 10. november 2005 17:37 > Til: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Emne: Re: [BEE-L] Unique Honeybee Presentations Watch the honeybee dance video accessible from my web. It is well documented. Best regards Jorn Johanesson maybe the best and Only Multilingual software for beekeeping on the net. With integrated update facility. Version 8.0.3.0 now translated into 14 languages with more to come. hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk Bidata support forum = http://www.apimo.dk/apimo_forum/ e-mail apimo@apimo.dk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:34:10 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? In-Reply-To: <000d01c5e60b$5f729260$03bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >I am not a researcher so will gladly admit to being wrong if indeed a virus does not use spores. Bob, you're one of the few. Many folks I read on internet lists who inadvertently say something that is wrong, and then are subsequently shown to be wrong will still insist on being "right. In fact some will simply rot in hell before admitting to a mistake. I, too, had always been taught that viruses do not form spores, and like some others on BeeL, I googled virus spores. There were a lot of hits. I read through some of them, but could find nothing definitive saying that viruses actually form spores. On one hit I did read that viruses sometimes attach themselves to *other* spores. Don't know if that's accurate or not. As you once pointed out, I think, Diana Sammataro mentioned to you that quite a lot of what is on the internet can be disregarded. Still, it's a good tool, but so much "stuff" out there now. Jeese! Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:05:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/11/05 04:05:35 GMT Standard Time, allen@HONEYBEEWORLD.COM writes: <> No. Human viruses, with very few exceptions, only survive for a very short period outside the body. Is there any data on how long bee viruses survive outside the bee? Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:04:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, Actually what Keith is saying answers a couple questions I had when trying to find the time table on comb of DWV . I only found one beekeeping site which referred to DWV spores. I thought this strange at the time but those involved with me in the PMS problem always referred to PMS spores. I am on the front lines of varroa. Incorrect information makes problems harder to solve. If I am understanding correctly none of our current testing is a waste of time and only the virus is not caused by spore but by some other means? What is the other means called? Our testing is " does PMS comb infect the new swarm faster than new comb" So now we know (or at least I do ) that some virus are spore forming and others are not. What is the dormant state of a virus called such as DWV? How long is the dormant state viable? Is comb that has had PMS (so bad the hive died )still a problem when the next swarm is placed on the comb? We know varroa can survive up to 7 days without a host. What is the time period for PMS virus to survive without bees? Is there a time period? Will temperature extremes kill the dormant stage? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:12:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman writes: I have sometimes wondered, but never seen any direct proof that in late queenright supersedure the younger of the two queens lays drones (or a large proportion of drones) and it is these that are the ones found in winter clusters. They would certainly be a few left early the next season, but I also am unsure of how viable such over wintered drones would be. Reply: In our area of S. Arizona for years (Grandpa, Dad, and now us) raised queens and have done splits/divides late in the fall on the downswing of late flows. Nothing wrong with it and it sure makes for good hives come following spring. We don't worry if the queens get mated or even go into drone laying, for they will go out again if need be (have seen this in our bee yards.). Always have and always will. Yards that appear to be a mess after late splitting, always seem to straighten them selves out by the end of the first moon cycle in spring 30 days following. But something to consider here which many beekeepers don't. There are short lived honeybees of the active beekeeping year (6 weeks ave more or less), and then there are the long lived bees of wintering over (4-6 months or more). Bees therefore have to mature faster for the active year and yet mature longer for the winter season, yet where is the research on it? Yet the drones produced late here in Nov/Dec seem fine in Feb; same for virgin queens which we like to work with for mating over winter as we like to requeen when we do it, starting in NOv for late fall, and then start up early Feb in the spring. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:13:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob, you're one of the few. Many folks I read on internet lists who > inadvertently say something that is wrong, and then are subsequently > shown to be wrong will still insist on being "right. Indeed, and often it is really not a matter of being wrong or right, especially in a discussion like this. Sometimes it is merely a matter of wording, as it may well be here. There may well be persistent forms of viri that are analgous to spores. Arriving correct wording is important, because if we do not all have a common understanding of the meaning of words and use them precisely, we can hardly communicate effectively. That said, we can get too fussy and hassle over wording when we actually know what is being said -- and agree. I think we all understand what Bob is saying, and just want to make sure we use the correct wording for the concepts. allen I think the world is run by 'C' students. -- Al McGuire -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:07:07 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? In-Reply-To: <010c01c5e63b$92a282f0$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well as far as I know PMS is still little understood. From what I've heard and read there are lot's of bacteria involved, and we know that bacteria do form spores. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:21:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeffrey Hamelman Subject: Re: GM Bees are coming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Abstract - Advanced functional genomic research on the honey bee (Apis > mellifera) will require methods that allow researchers to work with bees > derived from genetically manipulated embryos. > I can't remember how many years honeybees have been on earth, but I know I've read that they've been around for millions and millions. And they've done well, even considering the comparatively non-invasive relationship they've had with humans. Like most creatures on earth, they really don't need us at all. And if genetically modified honeybees do make their appearance, it's a guarantee that once again we short-sighted and terminally arrogant humans will have wreaked more unnecessary, ominous, and destructive havoc, that may result in short term gain for a few people, but in the long run will have disastrous consequences. Jeffrey Hamelman Hartland, Vermont -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:54:03 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Re: Unique Honeybee Presentations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe Waggle - First, my thanks for an extremely informative site, and videos to boot! I recently moved my slide presentation to a laptop with a projector, in large measure because I wanted to achieve a goal of educationg children as to the difference between a honey bee and a yellow jacket. The wealth of images available on line is staggering, and suddenly I was freed from being linked to a much more limited slide collection (or haivng slides made from digital files, a laborious process at best). Personally, I like to start with images of cave paintings of feral bees and prehistoric man (Cave of the Spiders, caves from S. Africa and Central India), then one of the hieroglph from Luxor, Egypt, showing the workers tending to hives in clay tubes and using "smoke". I ask children what they think that guy is doing with the "fuming bowl" and then say that "what he did 3,800 years ago, I did this very morning in order to bring bees in to show you" I then light a smoker, which small kids find fascinating. Make sure there are openable windows, check for the presence of a smoke detector, and in general light it just enought to get a few puffs off before shutting it down. If you do ask a responsible adult for permission first, you are very likely to be denied, so I usually don't. If alert they are very risk averse, and I wouldn't blame them. I have never set off a smoke detector. If there is a detector and the ceiling is low, better stay close to an outside door or window. C.Crowell Hightstown, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:14:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: [Fwd: Re: [BEE-L] deformed wing virus?] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Revised with less quoted material: Bob Harrison wrote: >Hello Keith & All, >Actually what Keith is saying answers a couple questions I had when trying >to find the time table on comb of DWV . I only found one beekeeping site >which referred to DWV spores. I thought this strange at the time but those >involved with me in the PMS problem always referred to PMS spores. > > Perhaps they are discussing one of the bacteria that may be associated with the problem? If they are refering to viral spores their terminology is incorrect. Once has to have a cell to make a spore. Bacterial cells, fungal cells, algal cells etc. Virii do not have cells. Just because they do not form spores doesn't mean they are not persistant and because of that your current testing is certianly not a waste. or time. Some virii are fairly environmentally stabile. Not as much as an anthrax spore, but persistant none the less. Also, within the hive there is ample organic materials to protect a viral particle. Wax, cocoons, other detritus etc. can all potentially protect viral particles from environmental degradation. FWIW - scabs are remarkable in their ability to protect viruses. Ala smallpox. >So now we know (or at least I do ) that some virus are spore forming and >others are not. Nope. Virii do not form spores. >What is the dormant state of a virus called such as DWV? Since viruses are not alive in the sense that they are not actively metabolizing, they are essentially dormant all the time - until they plug into a cell they are going to infect/hijack. >How long is the dormant state viable? I think you mean, how long do viral particles remain infective. Depends on the type of virus. Some are very environmentally labile e.g. enveloped viruses. Others are more persistant. When they are locked up in organic material some can be quite persistant. >We know varroa can survive up to 7 days without a host. >What is the time period for PMS virus to survive without bees? Is there a time period? >Will temperature extremes kill the dormant stage? Depends entirely on what kind of virus you have - there are many, and they are extremely varied. I would bet there is. There is for for almost every other virus. Temp extremes can be used to destory virii, typically heat is more effective. Freezing is often used to preseve virii. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:07:22 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? In-Reply-To: <5914a758ae86.58ae865914a7@southeast.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all A virus is it's own 'spore' the virus itself is the infecting agent, and spread of viruses comes from their replication within host cells. The second (or subsequent) generation of viruses being identical in every way to the original, apart from any mutation that might have happened. Unfortunately the press and many internet sites use the word spore in a way synonymous to 'infective agent' and viruses get the same 'dumbed down' treatment by the media as bacteria that do produce spores. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:18:36 -0500 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: Keith B. Forsyth Subject: Honey recall highlights danger of counterfeits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From the Canadian Honey Coucil (CHC) Honey recall highlights danger of counterfeits By Anthony Fletcher 27/10/2005 - The discovery of veterinary medicine residues in a UK brand of honey has again underlined the potential threat posed by counterfeit products. Distributor Morris & Sons is removing Natural Choice Brand Pure Clear Honey from supermarket shelves after elements of chloramphenicol and sulphonamide were detected. The Food Standards Agency (FSA) reported that the honey was adulterated with invert syrup, and is said to have an odd taste. As such, the FSA considers the honey to be a counterfeit product. This underlines a worrying trend. The amount of fake food and drinks entering the EU grew by 200 per cent last year. By comparison the average growth of all faked goods, including cigarettes, cosmetics, clothes, toys, grew by 12 per cent. Counterfeiting and tampering can undermine consumers trust in the quality and safety of a branded food product, leading to a loss in market share. And, as in this case, can pose a potential threat to health. Both chloramphenicol and sulphonamide are illegal. Chloramphenicol, which it is thought could cause cancer, can also lead to aplastic anaemia in susceptible people. Exposure to chloramphenicol in food in any quantity is undesirable, but the level of risk will depend on how much is consumed and how frequently. Chloramphenicol has been banned in Europe for use on animals since 1994 and it is illegal for it to be in honey. The presence of sulphonamide in honey is also illegal. The FSA has now issued a Food Alert for Action, giving details of the affected product. The brand of honey is packaged in a glass jar with a gold screw top lid. On the front of the jar is a label, which is yellow in colour with a honeycomb effect background. The words 'Natural Choice' are in black lettering at the top of the label, beneath this are the words 'Pure Clear Honey' in blue lettering and then in small case are the words 'A delicate blend of the worlds finest honey'. About 4.4 million items of foodstuff, drinks and alcoholic items were seized in the EU last year. The total represents four per cent of the total counterfeit items seized in the EU last year. China accounted for most of the total faked goods seized last year. In terms of origin, Russia accounted for about 13 per cent of the fakes in foods and drinks. The Ukraine accounted for another 13 per cent, the Dominican Republic nine per cent, Nigeria nine per cent, the US six per cent, Hungary four per cent and Argentina four per cent. Original story at http://www.foodnavigator.com/news/ng.asp?n=3D63503-fsa-recall-counterfeit= Heather Clay National Coordinator Canadian Honey Council Suite 236, 234-5149 Country Hills Blvd NW Calgary AB T3A 5K8 ph. 403-208-7141 fax 403-547-4317 email: hclay@honeycouncil.ca www.honeycouncil.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:42:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Unique Honeybee Presentations In-Reply-To: <111020052354.16616.4373DD9B00022148000040E8216028065199019D0C9C079B9D9A0C@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Curtis Crowell wrote: > First, my thanks for an extremely informative > site, and videos to boot! Thanks Curtis, it;s there for all to use. I'm trying to categorize them so that information needed is easily found. There are many links from within sites I have included and 'bookmarked' because vital information can be very difficult to find and lost within a site at times, so I sometimes will have several pages with their own links from a single site linked up on the list. While on the subject, I once ran across a link that had a formula for a 'rough estimate' the number of bees in a colony by counting the number of foragers leaving the colony. It was on a trivia page I believe and I think from a extensions service in the mid west maybe. If anyone is aware of the location of this link, or has the formula, please provide,,,I would be grateful, I lost my link somewhere. Am also intrested in any type of 'counting bees formula' and the formula for bee 'lining timing the distance formula' I recently moved my slide > presentation to a laptop with a projector... That's a great idea Curtis! Is it difficult to get web photos onto a laptop for projection slide shows. What equipment or programs are needed? > Personally, I like to start with images of cave > paintings of feral bees and prehistoric man... That's a good idea starting with the past and bringing the presentation up to the present day. That would be very effective to provide an overview of beekeeping history and setting the stage for present day beekeeping presentations. Thanks! > (light the smoker) just enought to get a few puffs offbefore shutting it down. I once put some dry ice in a tin can with water, then in my smoker for Halloween. ;>) Thanks for the great tips Curtis. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:58:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Unique Honeybee Presentations In-Reply-To: <20051111144251.45749.qmail@web34313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-67567342 > a formula for a 'rough estimate' the number of >bees in a colony by counting the number of foragers >leaving the colony. Do share, Joe. Wonder how they take into consideration the temperature, flow, etc. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/166 - Release Date: 11/10/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:46:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Engelhardt Subject: Re: Unique Honeybee Presentations (Counting Bees) In-Reply-To: <20051111144251.45749.qmail@web34313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > While on the subject, I once ran across a link that had a formula for > a 'rough estimate' the number of bees in a colony by counting the > number of foragers leaving the colony. For a real rough estimation of your bees count the number of bees returning to the hive for a minute (bees/minute). Then follow by using this figure to estimate the number of deep frames covered in bees by multiplying a thirty minute interval of bee watching by 0.0005 ( (Bees/Minute)*0.15 ). One filled deep frame is about .5 lbs bees, or 1750 individual bees . So in summary: ( # Bees Entering Hive / # Minutes Observing ) * 0.875 = approximate bee population This information was found on pages 71 and 164 of The Beekeeper's Handbook 3rd edition by Sammataro and Avitabile This estimation disregards, outside temperature, available foraging, time of day, impending weather, and a good deal of other variables, but it should hopefully give you a real rough approximation. -Robert -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:50:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: GM Bees are coming Jeffrey Hamelman wrote: >I can't remember how many years honeybees have been on earth, but I know >I've read that they've been around for millions and millions. I thought it might be worthwhile to provide this tidbit: The Cretaceous Period (135-65 million years ago) is the time of the wide expansion of two great groups of plants--the flowering plants (angiosperms) on land and the diatoms in water, although the first angiosperms may have appeared as early as the Triassic. Flowering plants also triggered a great wave of evolution among the insects. At the end of Cretaceous time, the extinction of dinosaurs resulted in the spectacular evolution of terrestrial mammals, and giant sharks and marine mammals replaced large reptiles in the sea. The group of mammals known as the primates--now represented by lemurs, monkeys, apes, and humans--dates back to the beginning of the Cenozoic Era (65 million years ago to the present), but humanlike creatures (see prehistoric humans) are known only from the last few million years, the Pliocene and Pleistocene epochs. Bees are any of 20,000 species of insects belonging to the superfamily Apoidea and the order Hymenoptera, including such important pollinators of plants as the bumblebees; the yellow-faced, or plasterer, bees; the mining, or burrower, bees; and the economically important honeybees of the genus Apis. It is thought that bees originally evolved from hunting wasps which acquired a taste for nectar and decided to become vegetarians. Fossil evidence is sparse but bees probably appeared on the planet about the same time as flowering plants in the Cretaceous period, 146 to 74 million years ago. The oldest known fossil bee, a stingless bee named Trigona prisca, was found in the Upper Cretaceous of New Jersey, U.S.A., and dates from 96 to 74 million years ago. It is indistinguishable from modern Trigona. The precursor of the honeybees may have been living about this time, but fossils of the true Apis type were first discovered in the Lower Miocene (22 to 25 million years ago) of Western Germany. A bee resembling Apis dorsata but much smaller (about the size of a present day mellifera) was present in the Upper Miocene (about 12 million years ago). It is thought that Apis florea and Apis dorsata may have existed as separate species as early as the Oligocene period. It has not been possible to estimate when bees of the Mellifera/Cerana type first appeared on Earth. Mellifera and Cerana must have acquired separate identities during the latter part of the Tertiary era. (The Tertiary Period is the older of two subdivisions of the Cenozoic Era and represents some 63 million years of geologic time, commencing about 65 million years ago. ) The two species were apparently physically separated at the time of the last glaciation (which began about 70,000 years ago, and ended 10,000 years ago), and there was no subsequent contact between them until that brought about by human intervention in recent times. In the post glacial period Mellifera and Cerana (and to a less extent Dorsata and Florea) have shown similar evolution into geographical subspecies, or races. mostly taken from "The 1997 Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:27:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Hey! There is New Money Being Spent on Bee Research! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://tinyurl.com/7dmm9 allen We think in generalities, but we live in detail. -- Alfred North Whitehead -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:56:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Hey! There is New Money Being Spent on Bee Research! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, while this is new to Indiana it is 'old' to Cornell and Ohio State an= d perhaps others. In particular, Tom Seeley at Cornell has had all his research in this direction for several years. But its not going to help us beekeepers much...except perhaps to predict/understand some of *our*behavio= rs. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 15:17:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Unique Honeybee Presentations (Counting Bees) In-Reply-To: <4374CADB.7070106@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Robert Engelhardt wrote: > > ( # Bees Entering Hive / # Minutes Observing ) * > 0.875 = approximate bee population. > pages 71 and 164 of The Beekeeper's > Handbook 3rd edition by Sammataro and Avitabile (estimation disregards, outside temperature and other weather related factors etc.) Thanks Roberet! Using some of your great info you provided, I as able to search out some more examples on this link: http://makeashorterlink.com/?X5E72152C Also thanks Eunice, James, Mike and Curtis for the nice responses! Here's a real puzzler, maybe no formula exists but,,, I often remove feral colonies that might have an stud void for example 60 inches long, by 6 inches deep, by about 15 inches wide. If this void is completely filled with comb that has a comb spacing center to center of 1.25 inches. Could one roughly determine the amount of comb or cell space contained in the void? Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:20:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051109212028.039bc050@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Very nice reply from Mike on this subject, thanks for good good discussion! I decided to return comment because my private inbox received many personal inquiries and expressing appreciation for discussion about organic beekeeping philosophies many on this list hold dear. What has been very helpful to me is Dee's 'Whole Bee' beekeeping techniques as I compare to what I am seeing and learning in the wild bees, I do hold as highly informative in my efforts to develop and learn about strategies which promote locally adapted bees that have a well balanced mix of fundamental traits needed for honeybees to flourish in my local conditions and be productive for the beekeeper. --- Michael Palmer wrote: > ..I would expect you (to find good stock) away from those "domestic" bees.. Depends on who you 'listen to' Mike. The 'bee business / breeder establishment' that keep domestic bees might say, the domestic bees escaping from beekeepers are responsible for the wild be recovery. While many of the 'organic bee business establishment' that tends to rely on wild bees to obtain good genetics might say that the wild bees are responsible for the wild bees recovery. I understand your hesitance as a commercial beekeeper to use the 'F' word on this list in describing these wild bees. So as not to be controversial, I will also call them 'good genetics' or 'wild bees'. The reason I did not expect to see wild bees recovering so strongly in the woodlands is that I 'first observed' wild bees recovering from varroa in 'prime bee habitat'. In areas that had year round variety of nearby forage and abundant large cavities in the form of old farm structures, wall voids and tress etc. and I believed from my observations that bee habitat and nourishment had much to do with the recovery, and I thought these overall bee habitat requirements was the 'key'. I realize, now that I am finding woodland bees that this was likely due to the human population (many eyes) encountering the bees recovering here first. But looking at the woodland wild bees, there IMO seems to be a trade off occurring, giving up nearby forage for isolation from domestic influence. Is getting away from poor genetics and obtaining isolation more important than nourishment or good be habitat? Apparently NOT, because from what I am seeing, the wild woodland bees seem to have developed traits that are essential to forage more efficiently and at a greater distance for the required nourishment. So, 'bad bee habitat', does not necessarily mean 'bad for the bees' if the fundamental traits needed are 'allowed to develop' within a population. Many believe (and I hear on this list all the time) that the 'wild bees' are recovering in the USA due to the domestic (SMR, hygienic ect.) bees escaping from beekeepers colonies and repopulating the wild populations. If this is the case,,, then wouldn't you expect to find the good genetics right there in your own bee yards?,,, and not have to go to the isolated wilderness? What exactly are you getting away from in mating deep in the isolated areas as Kirk, Dee and others that are successful are doing? What are you gaining by integrating these good wild genetics into your bees as I believe the Purvis Brothers and others are doing? Is it as simple as 'bad breeding practices' are depressing the development of good traits in domestic bees?, or is 'non acclimated stock' causing this much harm? Or maybe even too much sloppy variation of traits caused by an over abundance of colonies not properly selected to the point where there is no real focus on 'essential traits' needed for local conditions? Some breeders produce very good stock, but high percentage of locally bred wild mongrels are known to out perform them. Would this indicate that common everyday beekeeping practices are promoting an unnatural balance of genetic competition? Just something to think about. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:01:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell Quote: Very nice reply from Mike on this subject, thanks for good good discussion! Reply: Except that you didn't really pay attention to what he was saying. What he said there is no real difference between feral colonies and colonies in hives. If you want to experiment with survival of the fittest, it is the easiest thing to do. Just let your bees die off. If *any* of them survive without your help, breed from those colonies. You don't have to beat the woods for survivors. Besides, the reason they survived in the woods could be that bees do better when they are off by themselves, and not in apiaries! As many people have pointed out, in order for a wild population to develop some real differences, there would have to be three things: 1) complete isolation from other bee populations (like those on an island, such as the one Adrian Wenner studied); 2) selective pressure (such as varroa mites); and 3) time. How much time? Well, we don't know. The problem with so-called feral bees in this country is that they are not isolated from other bees in any meaningful way. Otherwise, why would all colonies in the US have mites? Mites cannot be transmitted except from bee to bee, so that means essentially that every colony in the US is within flying distance of other bees. If your ferals were really isolated from the rest, they might not get mites -- so they couldn't ever develop resistance (#2, selective pressure). In fact, it has been shown that queens can fly up to 10 miles to mate. This is all part of why not only is it just as good to try to select better bees from within your stock, it makes a lot more sense. It could take decades, if not centuries for a mite resistant bee to evolve on its own. That is the exact reason why humans learned to breed plants and animals, nature takes too long -- and selects for survival only, not productivity, for example. Darwin got the idea of evolution from observing the work of animal breeders on the one hand and the result of geographic isolation on the other. He saw how plastic creatures are and how much they can be changed by the breeder, like the great variety we see in dogs. In South America he observed isolated populations that had *differentiated themselves* as a result of long separation. This is what created separate species like A. mellifera and A. cerana. They came from the same ancestors, but gradually evolved into quite different animals as a result of physical separation in different regions, where they were exposed to different selective pressures from the different environments. He reasoned that nature was like an *unseen breeder*. A given population would vary in certain ways; nature would cull out the unfit ones and the fitter ones would reproduce and prevail. If the better individuals mated with the poor ones, no progress would ever be made. That's why it is so hard to make progress breeding bees unless you can control the drones as well as the queens. The problem with breeding, of course, is humans tend to breed for *other things* besides health and vigor. They select for good appearance, as in show dogs, or productivity as in milk cows and hogs. Health tends to be relegated to veterinary science: if they get sick, will fix them with drugs. I agree that this is wrong. It's wrong in animal husbandry and its wrong in human health. We have to try to encourage healthy individuals that don't get sick, instead of the current "fix it" mentality. But even if you do obtain mite resistant stock, how will you keep it? Every time a queen supersedes and mates with the local population, you are back where you started. It's not a matter of requeening with good stock and then resting on your laurels. I wonder how many beekeepers actually requeen on a regular basis? Isis Glass ps. re-read Mike's posts: Perhaps it isn't that the bees are "ferals" but rather that you have found some good stock. The same could have been "found" by selecting from "domestic" stock. It's just that you didn't have to do the selection. Winter...the great equalizer...did it for you. In my opinion. The same could be found in my stock, after selecting for these traits...and there is nothing "feral" about my bees. and Are you attending his lecture? You should, and then you can ask him these questions. His bees have been untreated for several years. He says they are getting better at tolerating varroa. In the past, he blows the bees out in the fall in colonies suffering from PMS. This year, he is seeing healthy bees and brood, and hasn't had to blow many out. No ferals, no small cells. Just years of selection starting with Russians starting in the late 90's. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:13:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <200511132201.jADLSmNJ003203@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Isis Glass wrote: Quote: What he > said there is no real difference between feral > colonies and colonies in > hives. Reply: I agree that there is no real difference between most wild bees and domestic bees. Except, where traits are allowed to develop to fit specific local conditions in the ferals and bad practices in the domestics. You do not need total isolation in order for good traits to develop. Look at the example of Adrian's bees on the island. Yes, they were isolated and were devastated from varroa due to the lack of diversity and subsequent variation. And if you look at the evidence in the form of success that Kirk, Dee and others are having in finding good genetics in the woodlands would seem to suggest that there is a bigger difference than you and most others might think. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:48:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <20051114001301.91428.qmail@web34310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Waggle wrote: >Reply: >I agree that there is no real difference between most >wild bees and domestic bees. > > And yet you have, on several occasions, quoted a study that suggests that they are different and that there is very little genetic mixing, No? Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:59:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>there is no real difference between feral colonies and colonies in hives. There are a lot of generalities in this discussion, and from where I sit, both parties may be right. As for who is wrong, maybe both are wrong, too. I don't know. What I do know is that in some areas, where bee habitat is good and human influence slight, feral bees been able to adapt to the area, and, once established, have proven extremely hard to dilute or eradicate. Varroa may have changed this, and -- in a few cases -- it may not. The problem is that all we have to go on is reports, and most of them are anecdotal and not very scientific, or exhaustive. From what we see in many areas, we can deduce that varroa has wiped out all the ferals, but we do not actually know, and America is huge and diverse. There may be pockets of survivors. In areas where human influence (beekeeping) is great, we will see much less feral influence, if any, and that is where we find it easy to make observations. So, we need to visualise and understand the regions -- and possibly unique stocks -- each member is experiencing, and realise that there may be areas that are completely different from what we personally know, and admit that our own experience may not apply there. We also need to remember that there is quite credible evidence that bees mate selectively in ways we only slightly understand. We have general understandings, but once again we do not very well understand the significant exceptions and special cases, so there may well be local populations in some areas that do not interbreed entirely bidirectionally with other nearby stocks. On the other hand, there is sufficient diversity in even escaped domestic stocks -- especially in the offspring and random crosses from selected and/or hybrid stocks -- that an untrained observer catching and keeping only a small number of hives and could be fooled into thinking that he is seeing patterns where, in fact there is only randomness. We really do not know what is out there in 100% of the cases. These days, it is pretty certain that AHB is distributed more widely than the maps indicate, as are other genetics. It's a real soup. Anyhow, I am reminded of the blind men and the elephant, and tend to think that each of us has his own perspective. allen We think in generalities, but we live in detail. -- Alfred North Whitehead -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 07:15:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell Group What is being discussed here, like it or not, is evolution. Evidently more people in the US no longer accept evolution than do. But if you are going to cite evolution as a factor in the emergence of hardy bees in the wild, you have to refer to the actual facts of evolution. The fact is: evolution takes a lot of time. That's why human beings resort to breeding; they don't have time to wait around for "nature to take its course." In Chapter 4 of The Origin of Species, Darwin wrote: It may be said that natural selection is daily and hourly scrutinising, throughout the world, every variation, even the slightest; rejecting that which is bad, preserving and adding up all that is good; silently and insensibly working, whenever and wherever opportunity offers, at the improvement of each organic being in relation to its organic and inorganic conditions of life. We see nothing of these slow changes in progress, until the hand of time has marked the long lapses of ages. * * * The light-colored form of the moth, known as typica, was the predominant form in England prior to the beginning of the industrial revolution. The typica moth's speckled wings are easy to spot against a dark background, but would be difficult to pick out against the light-colored bark of many trees common in England. Around the middle of the 19th century, however, a new form of the moth began to appear. The first report of a dark-colored peppered moth was made in 1848. By 1895, the frequency in Manchester had reached a reported level of 98% of the moths. In recent years, the burning of cleaner fuels and the advent of Clean Air laws has changed the countryside even in industrial areas, and the sootiness that prevailed during the 19th century is all but gone from urban England. Coincidentally, the prevalance of the carbonaria form has declined dramatically. In fact, some biologists suggest that the dark forms will be all but extinct within a few decades. * * * In both these passages there is reference to time. In the case of the moths, it is decades, not eons. But moths are *highly adaptable*, and you can find numerous examples of camouflage and mimicing. What I am saying is that the facts do not support the emergence of a wild population of european honey bees in the US that is resistant to varroa in such a short time. Bear in mind, too, that the varroa are evolving and a less virulent type may arise that *does not kill its host*. I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 06:47:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What is being discussed here, like it or not, is evolution... Seems to me that there are a number of topics coming up under this thread. Also, it seems to me that each writer seems to pick his favourite music sheet and favourite drum to beat. The result is amusing, if not particularly coherent. Indeed, evolution is one of the topics, however, diversity is another, and selection is another again. Opinion, accuracy -- or not -- of observation, egos, and interpretation of history also contribute to the confusion. The fact that a common understanding of the background concepts and teminology seems sketchy at best does not help. Nonetheless there is a chance we may eventually learn something from this thread, especially if we all try to listen to the others and try to find truths in their statements that challenge our own understandings. allen Without the aid of prejudice and custom I should not be able to find my way across the room. -- William Hazlitt -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:28:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Many believe (and I hear on this list all the time) that the 'wild bees' are recovering in the USA due to the domestic (SMR, hygienic etc. I certainly believe the above! Our researchers told us years ago that when a varroa tolerant bee was made available ( like over five years ago with the Russian, hygienic and SMR stock) that many beekeepers would start claiming success for snake oil treatments instead of giving the real reason credit. I also would add Russian to Joe's above list (maybe should be first on the list)! Joe is always dropping Kirk Webster's name so will give a few quotes from Kirk from his March 2005 Bee Culture article. "Though we still lose a few bees, we don't treat-and RUSSIANS are why" (pg.3). "These Russian bees are a Godsend" (pg.33) "for me the Russian bees imported and further developed by Tom Rinderer have been by far the most helpful" (pg.33) "Once the Russian stock became available, and the queens were mated with proven drone mothers, I was able to wean this part of the apiary off of all treatments in just ONE generation" (pg.33) Joe said: >Some breeders produce very good stock, but high percentage of locally bred wild mongrels are known to out perform them. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the above Joe! I have had plenty of feral swarms & swarms from buildings. Mine we were average compared to my production hives except when they came from my own hives. I buy my *production queens* from breeder queens selected the year before as the best honey producers , temperament and brood viability from 4-5000 production hives. I had one of those queens produce a higher amount of honey than the worlds record four years ago.. My partner can verify what I say but without documentation from the start the record remains. If Joe is talking honey production I will say I have never had a Russian, NWC, Purvis Brothers or Marla Spivak queens bees produce honey on the level of breeder queens selected as the best honey producer in 4-5000 hives. Maybe others have but I have not! I have used over a 100 queens from each of the above and in some cases hundreds. The above might help Tom R., Sue Cobey, Dann Purvis & Marla understand why many commercial beekeepers in the U.S. still prefer the Italian bee selected in the old Homer park tradition. Homer selected his breeder queens from either 4,000 hives in California or from the 4,000 hives he ran in Canada. Selection for hygienic behavior, varroa tolerance , wintering and other traits the above breeders select for is not done with the method I describe. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:49:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: evolution In-Reply-To: <200511141215.jAEC850U003634@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isis Glass wrote: > Evidently more > people in the US no longer accept evolution than do. But if you are going to > cite evolution as a factor in the emergence of hardy bees in the wild, you > have to refer to the actual facts of evolution. The fact is: evolution takes > a lot of time. Lesson # one in politics- do not believe polls unless you know the question. So I question if more do not accept evolution. Maybe they do not fully accept Darwin (as many scientists disagree in whole or in part with the Theory), maybe the absence of God, maybe anything. To elaborate a bit on what Isis said: That evolution takes time is key, especially in going from one species to an entirely different species distinct from its parent and not able to cross mate. We can see change in our lifetimes, but they are changes in the species and usually because of the trigger of one or more already existing DNA strands. You could call it evolution, but there is nothing to say that this sort of "evolution" is permanent since, as with the moths, if the stimulus is removed, the species reverts to its original state. Just note Varroa and pesticides. That is not really evolution, but adapation or selection. You have a disparate range of characteristics in a population and pressure selects for a specific character. We do that with our bees by assuming the position of nature and select to our desires. We also enounter problems in that selection, since the original characteristics are still in the DNA, only turned off, and are often turned back on. So our gentle bees become angry and our winter hardy die off with a mild chill. We can only hope that we arrive at some fairly stable state that will stay with us for a while. The problem is, we cannot control our main adversary, which is Nature, laughing at us from just beyond the boundarys of our apiary. She harbors all those mavericks that will dilute our gene pool. She also sets the agenda when the bees escape our apiaries. And she will sneak in when our back is turned and turn on that DNA strand. As long as we keep bees we are both the problem and the solution. There is a good argument that without beekeepers we would have lost EHB in the US and would now be totally AHB in the areas it can survive (which seems a bit larger than what was thought). In the same vein, we are a part of the problem since we maintain Varroa susceptible bees. We chose the latter course since, to do otherwise, would have left us with nothing. It is nice now, after the initial Varroa attack has been held in check, that we have the luxury to select a better bee. Once we get to a tolerant bee, my guess is we will probably fall into the Tracheal Trap, which is we live in pesticide free balance but fall out from time to time resulting in major winter kills. Varroa and Tracheal will always be with us, hence, like the flu, can flare up with disastrous consequences. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 07:26:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Russian bees In-Reply-To: <000001c5e926$e8376260$20bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Having heard diverse opinions about the Russian strain of bee I have a few questions. 1. Can the Russians be induced to build up early via pollen patties and sugar syrup (HFC)? 2. What seems to be the disposition of the F2 generation when open mated (Granted drones vary the results)? 3. Do they seem to supercede a lot (Reason for previous question)? 4. What problems seem to arise with the introduction of the Russian queens into colonies/nucs/splits of non-Russian bees? 5. A lot of queen suppliers claim Russian genetics. What observations have been made concerning these queens? Good producers? Gentleness? Varroa tollerant? Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:14:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Evolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>You could call it evolution, but there is nothing to say that this = sort of "evolution" is permanent since, as with the moths, if the = stimulus is removed, the species reverts to its original state<<<< The assumption of an "original state" troubles me. There is no such = permanent thing; no baseline from which things diverge. There is merely = the adaptive response of the organism to its' environment at a point in = time. To say that the moths "reverted" is incorrect. They adapted to a = new (to them) environment.=20 Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:31:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: feral bees and setting up a chem lab Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All Back from travels, weeded through lots of messages. As per 'feral' - its far simpler than projected - just go to the dictionary: a) Existing in a wild or untamed ((unmanaged)) state, b) Having returned to an untamed ((unmanaged)) state from domestication ((managed colonies)) . Yes, I know, you can argue whether bees are domesticated, but substitute ((managed)) for tamed or domesticated and you've got the definition. Now, as to the proposal that feral colonies are: more aggressive, don't pollinate, don't produce honey Those don't necessarily hold. The feral colonies came from managed colonies, so initially they are genetically the same. If your colonies are africanized, then so will be the escapees. If they are calm Italians, so will be their progeny. Again, we can argue how your colonies got to be calm or nasty. But when they first escape, there should be no difference with respect to the feral versus the source colonies in terms of aggressiveness. With time, you may see a difference. However, there's also no reason why unmanaged genetics should drift to nasty versus calm temperment other than: 1) a good beekeeper will cull out nasty colonies (in the managed situation) 2) there may be some survival benefit in the wild (unmanaged state) for being a bit more aggressive towards bears, skunks, etc. Also, I'm assuming that the feral colonies are NOT exposed to africanized bees (whether managed or not). The aggressive behavior comment came from Australia, where presumably they don't have AHB. Ok, so let's look at pollination and honey production. Surely, the feral colonies pollinate and make honey. Whether they pollinate the crop that you want depends on where they are at (its not as easy to move their colonies around, so the crop has to be within flight range of their home base). Similarly, they make honey, but its not easy to harvest (or at least not as convenient). Actually, some might argue that its easier to harvest - just chop down the tree -- no extractors needed. Feral colonies and Weeds -- same definition problem. What are weeds other than plants growing where you don't want them? Now, as to the chem lab question. No one instrument is going to do the job. At a conservative estimate, startup for a full featured pollen/honey lab would easily cost 1/4-1/2 million U.S. dollars. For example, a basic GC/Mass Spec goes for $100k +, and LC/Mass Spec about $1/4 M. And that's without the high salary technician who knows how to run these costly machines. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:42:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: S Wilson Subject: Newbee's update on Russians Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Moderator: If this is too much cut or toss it. My thanks to all whose insights have helped me though my fourth summer beekeeping in Mid Virginia, USA. My bee buddies and I have started a round-table group to share info from the web and otherwise help each other (2-125 hives). Your info is the major part of my input. The following is an update on the bees here. Most beekeepers are treating, some with Apistan, others with Checkmite. Varroa is a major problem. A couple larger guys have left Apistan in all winter, despite warnings. The following refers to my bees (from my blog). Note the starvation, which is rampant, after a promising spring: After everything I have 23 going into winter (17 last spring). I'll be happy to come out with half, with no treatments & a hard winter. The Russians are wintering with smaller clusters, since they slowed down during the drought. We really suffered from July through September with no rain; had too much rain for several weeks into October. No nectar, little pollen, then rain washed out both. I've ordered my Purvis Bros. Gold-line Queens for June 06. They are the mite resistant Italian bees. With last year's Blue-Line Russians mixed into the gene pool I'm hoping to produce honey & not have to treat. I'm hoping to give the Russians some drone brood to flood the area with better genetics. If I do then the supercedures and swarm virgins will have a chance at the resistant genes. The bees are full of syrup, but have little pollen. Some pollen is still coming in, though. I spotted a couple hives that might not make it, but since they're Russians I couldn't be sure. If they were Italians I'd join them with stronger hives. Only one hive has brood, and that is the weakest of the F1 Jester hybrid Russians, with only two frames of bees and a three-inch patch of brood on those two frames. We'll see if she survives. There were no drones, and I saw every queen. Without brood, and with small populations (one box), the bees should have shown some phoretic mites. I was looking very closely and saw one only, in a hive where there were three 'greasy' bees. I'm sure that's caused by a virus. I killed all of those. I went in very late in the day to forestall robbing. It was about 59-60F, and the long shadows were falling, so most of the foragers were home. They were feisty, but not unmanageable, since I took off all the tops and they had to defend every hive. All in all, with the outbreak of EFB and my scare with AFB, they look really good. I'm confident I'll still be a beekeeper next year. My bee buddy and I made a trip to Brushy Mountain Bees and bought 424 gallons of HFCS 55 at $2.02/gal. With gas & taxes it came out to $2.40/gal. We borrowed the truck and trailer for free and didn't charge for our labor. It probably would have been $3.00/gal with all that. That would still only be $15.00/5 gal bucket. ADM quoted me $17 plus shipping ($12.50 for a truckload with no shipping. Susi Wilson SWilson1@HSC.edu http://VirginiaCountryLife@blogspot.com Rice, VA 23966 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:25:10 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Feral Honey Bees In-Reply-To: <012101c5e5a9$eabf3380$81ac5ad1@Nemo> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT When mites first arrived in North America, I heard a few voices in the beekeeping community mention maybe there was a small silver lining in the cloud after all. Since mites had virtually wiped out the existing feral population those wild bees would no longer able to interfere with our breeding programs it was said. Beekeepers would finally be able to breed a bee to their own liking. Now feral bees are being proclaimed as the salvation of beekeeping (and, who knows, maybe rightly so---or not). Regards Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:21:46 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: feral bees and setting up a chem lab Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry wrote re. feral bees: >>Ok, so let's look at pollination and honey production. Surely, the feral colonies pollinate and make honey. I'd like to add, as a few here have pointed out a vertical cavity (vs. a horizontal one) encourages a bigger honey crop. Feral bees have a limited choice of cavity sights. A feral colony in an eave typically has a small honey crop. A vertical wall or a tree colony, has always had a larger than average crop in my experience. Feral queens placed in standard equipment produced a larger crop than purchased NWC queens in my statistically limited experience. BUT I have not been thrilled with the size and patterns of my purchased NWC queens. Hence, I am not implying that GOOD purchased NWC queens underperform feral queens! :) >>Similarly, they make honey, but its not easy to harvest (or at least not as convenient). Actually, some might argue that its easier to harvest - just chop down the tree -- no extractors needed. I have found collected feral honey aesthetically undesireable for human consumption. Whether it's a tree or a house, 9 out of 10 times, you are dealing with broken combs *contaminated* with debris. Mostly dust and particle debris from decayed wood. Probably just fine to eat but unaestetic nonetheless. And, regardless of what the homeowner claims, there is a real possibility the nest had been sprayed at some point in time. Perhaps by a previous home owner. If the bees look healthy, especially the sensitive brood, I have found it prudent to feed the feral honey back to the bees in hives not currently used for honey production. Why take a chance. Regards, Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:23:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: evolution quote: > You could call it evolution, but there is nothing to say that this sort of "evolution" is permanent. That is not really evolution, but adapation or selection. Hmmm. That's like saying "that's not really a cake you have there, but eggs and flour. Variation, selection, adaptation -- it all adds up to evolution. Nothing in evolution is permanent. That's the whole idea in a nutshell: everything changes over time. (I am willing to drop this topic, though.) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:30:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <004001c5e8d8$41851d70$b77ba8c0@Nemo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- allen dick wrote: ...From what we see in many > areas, we can deduce > that varroa has wiped out all the ferals, but we do > not actually know, and > America is huge and diverse. 2 years ago, a friend of mine said. "What happended to all the honeybees? I never see a honeybee in my yard, I hear their all dead from a mite or something". One year later, I removed 2 very large mature feral colonies from his property. One was in a huge white oak right on his front yard that fell, and another in a tree out back. I find that many ferals can be found right under our noses. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:59:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Informed Comments In-Reply-To: <200511082000.jA8Jv9kx009018@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone with access to a good library can prob find references to several papers by Howell Daly, Steve Sheppard, and others supporting the view that many feral populations are different from the "strayed" populations common around managed areas. I fail to understand why this same view (that all ferals are strays) keeps coming up, at least since I have been online (about 1990). - John Isis Glass wrote: >our friend writes: >There have been a number of reports on this list that suggests that many >feral bees are somewhat genetically dissimilar to most "owned" bees. > >Comment: > > It's a small wonder there are so few serious bee researchers on this list. > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:00:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <000001c5e926$e8376260$20bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: I don't care to get into disagreement I don't want to upset Aarron, but since you are dropping Kirk Webster's name and giving quotes, I will give a quote also. "Until Kirk Webster had articles in the bee magazines extolling the virtues of Russian bees, I had not talked to anyone outside the program who could make these bees work. They sure didn’t work for us. I would be interested in knowing what Kirk’s production figures are. I’ll bet they are pretty low." http://www.abuzzaboutbees.com/IHPA/TheBuzz/August05/Page7.htm Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:11:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <000001c5e926$e8376260$20bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: Maybe I misunderstood Mike Palmer, he can correct me. A few years back when I was having wintering problems, Mike mentioned that Kirk may be having Champlain Valley Queens for sale. I believe the mention was that they were darker bees unique to the Champlain Valley, that were bred for many years over several generations, and we very winter hardy and a bit hot to work at times. What happened to thses hardy Valley queens? They all die? ...I have had plenty of feral swarms & swarms from > buildings. Mine we were > average,,, Probably because they weren't ferals. This is the biggest misconception out there. I find that MOST bee removals usually are NOT ferals. Only after a bit of investigative work to determine degree of isolation before I would ever consider them ferals. IMO, A swarm that escaped from a beekeeper into some tree is not a feral, a dog that escaped the owner (sometimes dragging a chain) is not a feral, the cat that got loose and visits the kids sandbox at night is not a feral. What I consider ferals is Dog's, Cats, bees etc. that are established and procreating in the wild. But as long as the ambiguous definition of feral bees exists, no one is right and no one is wrong. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:18:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tim moran Subject: Re: Newbee's update on Russians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm taking a break from feeding syrup, and I thought I'd respond to "Newbee's" post. Our weather has been very similar, throughout the year. I started this year with 11 Russian packages April 20, Five queenless 2 lb. Italians mid-May given Purvis Gold Line queens, and two Italian/alleged Carny nucs mid-May from a local fellow who's been working the line for 15+ years. I took maximum advantage of Russian queen cell building to increase, plus used queen-rearing kit for selected colonies. The pure Russians took off, and by July I harvested 100+ lbs. total from 3 or 4 of them. I'm not sure of the source, but it was excellent light yellow honey. After that the drought hit. In August, I inspected just in time, as most colonies were nearing desperation. The Russians slowed down brood rearing, but not completely. The others varied. Some of the smaller nucs were dry, and consuming brood. They all recovered virtually immediately with feeding. I hadn't let more than 8 or 9 days go without checking them, so I don't feel guilty of neglect. But it reinforced the concept of being in tune with day to day conditions. As I fed them, brood rearing picked up, and had the weather cooperated they would have been in reasonably good shape to benefit from abundant fall blossoms. One thing that probably can't be stressed too much: If you start feeding under these conditions, you can't stop, or the bees will consume the brood, the resources will mostly be wasted, and they will end up as short on stores as when you started. Somehow I've ended up with about 35 colonies, and the weather lately has been very mild, which allows me to feed, feed, feed. I'm certain this will mean an awful lot come spring. With our very mild weather here in S.E. Pennsylvania, I thought I'd try putting out some pollen substitute one day last week. They took to it immediately, and as we speak, they are all over it. I have it placed on an inverted hive top, with plenty of sticks for them to work it. I am also feeding syrup as described in this month's Bee Culture-using a can to fill empty combs and placing them on the bottom. As the author indicated, bees were filling the brood nest with nectar as brood rearing closed out, which could be observed because the extended warmth allowed blossoming to continue. The Russians are interesting, no doubt about it. I was tremendously impressed early on, but I'm pretty sure that their ultimate value will be found in contributing to the gene pool. The pure strains will need a lot of work to control swarming/supercedure and several other traits some exhibit, that pose management challenges beyond those the average beekeeper might choose to deal with. Good luck to all, Happy Holidays! Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:29:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <4377ECF9.9050209@sc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Keith Benson wrote: > > And yet you have, on several occasions, quoted a > study that suggests > that they are different and that there is very > little genetic mixing, No? > Yes! You can present facts and studies on this list, but it's all dependent on how others interpret them or ignore them altogether. Wild bees are different, but to what degree they are different, I felt not worth an argument over. Also, what dictates a difference is different with different people. ;>) Many seem to call 'any swarm' that escapes from a beekeeper a feral. With this in mind, when I said that: "I agree that there is no real difference between most wild bees and domestic bees." I believe that most feral bees (as ferals are defined on this list) are in fact not ferals, and therefore not different, as this list would define them. ;>) Wild bees in isolated locations seem to maintain some separation, but not total separation. From my experience in collecting and trapping and assessing ferals along side domestics, there is a big difference in the isolated wild bees. Isolation, does not necessarily mean 'on an island' or isolated from 'genetic influence'. I believe isolation serves as a 'genetic filter'. Filtering out many of the poor genetics by distance and ecological factors so that a more natural balance of mating competition can take place between that of 'fit genetics'. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:42:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Unique Presentations - 2. Varroa Mites Comments: cc: "Malcolm T. Sanford" , Barry Birkey , phwells@earthlink.net, Eric Mussen Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Part 2. The St. Petersburg varroa mite symposium. Prof. Ingemar Fries of the University of Uppsala in Sweden, chaired the varroa mite symposium and wrote that I, as lead speaker, could have extra time during the varroa symposium. It was quite a lively symposium, with Dr. Fries serving as "devil's advocate" about presumed "solutions" to the varroa mite problem. Last week I gave much the same varroa talk ("Feral Bee Colonies and Varroa Resistance") at the California Beekeepers Convention in South Lake Tahoe. You can find an abstract of that talk at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/varroaabstract.htm Scandinavian beekeepers are not allowed to use any chemicals in their colonies . Recent articles in the American Bee Journal provide some information about the "Elgon" bees that some of them use. Prior to the Congress, Marianne and Sven Ohlsson of Finland sent me the following: http://home.agrolink.net/so.ohlsson/ After opening that URL, you can click on the video link and see a mite grasped with a forceps and placed on the entrance board. Elgon bees then make short work of the mite. Some strains of Elgon bees also have a pronounced bad odor that may repel mites — also covered in an American Bee Journal article. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* * "...the intensity of the conviction that a hypothesis is true has * no bearing on whether it is true or not." * * Peter Medawar (1979) ******************************************************************* -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:46:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Unique Presentations - 1. Bees & Odors Comments: cc: "Malcolm T. Sanford" , Barry Birkey , phwells@earthlink.net, Eric Mussen In-Reply-To: <20051115000032.88325.qmail@web34305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Nov 9, 2005, at 5:06 PM, Joe Waggle wrote (in small part): > Hello All, > > I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what could be > added to my honeybee presentations to help make them > more interesting and unique. > > I'm thinking about incorporating an interactive short > course on the 'Waggle Dance' into my presentations for > the kids. Possibly making a simple display with the > 'sun' and 'hive'. Then doing a waggle dance with a > toy bee. The kids then could use a simple chart to > figure on a map the forage location the bee is > dancing. Tim Vaughan then suggested: "You should read Adrian's book Anatomy of a Controversy: The Question of a "Language" Among Bees. Adrian M. Wenner and Patrick H. Wells. Columbia Univ. Press (1990). ISBN 0-231-06552-3." and: "There will probably be one in a library near you. You could very well be teaching false information to the kids. If you need a book for your personal library, contact Adrian first since he may still have some that he can sell less expensively than what you can get on line." ******** Joe was correct. By watching the waggle dance, one can gain a vague notion of the food source location visited by the dancing bee. The real problem is that attendant bees apparently cannot use that information but instead rely on odor present on the body of the dancing bee (as von Frisch insisted upon back in the 1930s). One can go to my latest publication about that matter at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/jib2002.htm (thanks to Barry Birkey) Just under a year ago Prof. Kipyatkov of St. Petersburg University in Russia invited me to give a plenary lecture on the role of odors in honey bee recruitment to food sources and to participate in a symposium on varroa mites at the Third European Congress on Social Insects (22-27 August 2005). That invitation surprised me, but I was even more surprised to find myself keynote speaker at the Congress. I was also made first speaker in the varroa mite symposium. A woman from Ukraine later told me that I was a "very famous person" in Russia, that our papers had all been translated into Russian, and that our experiments have been used in classes to illustrate effective experimental design. Quite frankly, I was floored (but pleased)! Malcolm Sanford attended the Congress and wrote a full account of the proceedings. Part 1 just appeared in the November issue of the American Bee Journal (pp. 913-915). Parts 2 and 3 will appear in later editions. Eric Mussen also included a summary of the presentations in the Sept/Oct. issue of the U.C. Apiaries Newsletter of the University of California, available at: entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/mussen.cfm You can find the abstract of my odor and bee recruitment lecture at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/odorabstract.htm Late next July I will be giving an adaptation of that keynote lecture at the 2006 Western Apicultural Society Conference, to be held in Buellton, California. Details will be available later. My supply of our 1990 book (Anatomy of a Controversy) is dwindling, but I can still sell a few copies to those sincerely interested in the topic (though I would surely not appreciate someone buying a copy and then making a profit on Amazon.com or e-bay). Alternatively, one can go to BeeSource.com and find almost all of our publications: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* * Everything has been said [and/or done] before, but since nobody * listens, we have to keep going back and begin all over again. * * André Gide —— Nobel Laureate in Literature, 1947 ******************************************************************* -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:27:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: evolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Variation, selection, adaptation -- it all adds up to evolution. Not really, if we are simply looking at an expression of genes, rather than elimination of genes or generation of new ones. > (I am willing to drop this topic, though.) May be a good idea. I think we are splitting hairs. allen Now we sit through Shakespeare in order to recognize the quotations. -- Orson Welles -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:37:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe & All, I read Phil's statement you posted (Iowa site). I have written over & over that to be successful with the Russians you have to change management! Phil did not!You get out of beekeeping what you put into it! Knowledge is power! I know of several commercial beekeepers running several thousand Russian hybrid hives with success but they have told me they had to change management systems with the Russians. They feel the varroa & tracheal mite tolerance is worth the management problems.. The name at the Iowa site is Gary Reynolds and not Gerry Reynolds. The name needs corrected! A grant for $30,000 brought Gary into the Russian program. He has to give so many programs (six I think) about a bee he has never used or at least had not when he gave the program at the Kansas honey producers meeting. Gary is a knowledgeable beekeeper and will get up to speed on the Russians. My partner & I spent about an hour over dinner at the meeting sharing with Gary on the Russians and did a program myself on the Russians at which Gary took notes. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:47:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe & All, >2 years ago, a friend of mine said. "What happended to all the honeybees? I never see a honeybee in my yard, I hear their all dead from a mite or something". >One year later, I removed 2 very large mature feral colonies from his property. Ok your friend said he NEVER saw a bee in his yard. A year later you removed two swarms from his yard! Why are these so called "ferals" and not simply swarms which arrived in the last year? Are you trying to say your friend had swarms in his yard (large) but was mistaken about not seeing a bee? I am trying hard to follow your train of thought. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:43:59 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <000001c5e926$e8376260$20bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: > Our researchers told us years ago that when a varroa > tolerant bee was made > available ( like over five years ago with the > Russian, hygienic and SMR > stock) that many beekeepers would start claiming > success for snake oil > treatments instead of giving the real reason credit. I hope the researchers told you the “real credit” goes a natural existing trait that's likely been around for thousands of years and first described by Rothenbuhler in 1964. Termed 'hygienic behavior', it is said to have evolved in the honeybees as a mechanism to protect their brood against disease, and thought to be the primary natural defense against AFB. And my best guess it that it’s maybe been around a bit longer than the researchers smr bees were. I even have a quote from a Ph. D research student, that seems to understand where the credit really goes. http://www.shef.ac.uk/uni/projects/taplab/lmmres.html “Honeybee Apis mellifera colonies have evolved diverse and elaborate defence mechanisms to protect their brood, adults and food against a broad range of pests and parasites ranging from viruses to vertebrates. One such mechanism is "hygienic behaviour".” So Please, let's start giving the real reason credit! Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:49:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <005f01c5e986$8dec72e0$04bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: Are you trying to say your friend had > swarms in his yard (large) > but was mistaken about not seeing a bee? > I am trying hard to follow your train of thought. I said my friend never sees bees any more, and one year later the tree in his front yard fell which had a large honeybee colony inside (not a swarm). And then we located another about 60 yards away. My thought is that they are more plentiful than is thought, and can usually be found right under your nose. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:33:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: allen dick Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I believe that most feral bees (as ferals are defined on this list) are > in fact not ferals, and therefore not different, as this list would define > them. ;>) Be fair. Sweeping, provacative and demonstrably untrue statements like the above do nothing to establish credibility with the intelligent, civilized and discerning audience that makes up 99% of BEE-L membership. Au contraire. allen Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it. -- Ellen Goodman -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:00:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <20051115001121.89049.qmail@web34306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5A0C456A > Maybe I misunderstood Mike Palmer, he can correct me. >A few years back when I was having wintering problems, >Mike mentioned that Kirk may be having Champlain >Valley Queens for sale. I believe the mention was >that they were darker bees unique to the Champlain >Valley, that were bred for many years over several >generations, and we very winter hardy and a bit hot to >work at times. What happened to thses hardy Valley >queens? They all die? I must have missed this. Can't always read those long posts all the way through. The Mraz's did breed a bee, by allowing the bees to raise their own queens in the Champlain Valley. The bees are as stated above. Kirk moved to the area because of that bee. He wanted to take advantage of its wintering ability. He was able to select for Tracheal mite resistance, and until Varroa came, had a great bee. It wasn't very varroa tolerant, so he experimented with Russians. He now has isolated mating yards in the mountains, to get away from that valley bee. He says his Russians gather more honey per bee than any bee he has ever seen. Charlie Mraz's grandson, Chas, is now running their bees. They are still managing their bees the same as ever, and having severe Varroa problems. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.0/167 - Release Date: 11/11/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:14:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <20051115002925.92656.qmail@web34306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. Waggle wrote: >Many seem to call 'any swarm' that escapes from a >beekeeper a feral. > > Yep, they fit the commonly accepted definition of the word. Several people have covered that, Jerry B summed it up nicely. Here's the deal. The only honeybees (AM) present in NA were brought here as managed colonies. They escaped and are now taking care of themselves. They continually do this as swarm control for most beekeepers is less than perfect. They are, by definition, feral. They are not native, and on this continent not, as the geneticists would say, "wild type". It is really that simple. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:42:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: deformed wing virus? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob and All Bob wrote:. > > I am on the front lines of varroa. Incorrect information makes problems > harder to solve. That is a VERY correct statement. Before this subject goes the wrong way any more. I sugest reading, Honey Be Pathology by L. Bailey & Brenda Ball. Second Edition. Harcourt Brace 1991. I did get a copy, when it first came out because I knew that a virus was killing my bees. I did communicate with Brenda Ball on the subject. The problems with the 22+ known bee viruses at the time. How they were vectored by varroa and why we could not stop that from happening. This is not something that just hangs in a hive It is all over the place.DWV has some differences in there coat proteins and they are distantly related to Egypt bee virus. Some stains of bees are more susceptibile to certain viruses. Working with the bees to solve the problem may have a chance. Most of all other testing has been done and even with T. Rinderer in the US. Honey Bee Pathology will stick to the facts ans science. That will help the list Thank You Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries Tahuya Wa. 98588 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 20:24:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: chuck smith Subject: Bee diseases MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good evening all I have a question for the group.Were did all the bee diseases come from.Did they all orginate in asia or in europe. Chuck --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 23:17:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ted Swenson Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <004d01c5e985$299240a0$04bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: >I know of several commercial beekeepers running several thousand Russian >hybrid hives with success but they have told me they had to change >management systems with the Russians. They feel the varroa & tracheal mite tolerance is worth the management problems.. > > > Bob, For the Russian beekeepers out here, could you give us a site that lists or discusses the management techniques used by the commercial Russian beekeepers? It would be nice to compare and learn from them. Is there a site where one can download your notes/slides from your presentations about Russian bee management? Thanks Ted -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:54:30 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Editors ahoy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am putting together a database of Editors of beekeeping newsletters = and journals to be able to send out information sheets on what is going = to happen at Apimondia in Melbourne Australia in 2007. I have had help = from several people but thought I should put out a general call to make = sure that I have as many Editors as possible on the database.=20 If you are an Editor please let me have your email address. Best to = contact me direct at queenbee@gil.com.au Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 07:04:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Unique Presentations - 2. Varroa Mites Dr Wenner writes: Feral colonies composed of mixed genetic traits have survived for several years, but colonies of genetically uniform bees perished in an island ecosystem. Feral colonies located remote from beekeeper activity could now have strains quite resistant to varroa mites and should be investigated. comment: We should not be surprised that the island bees succumbed to varroa, since they had not been exposed to them and had not developed defense against them. The "ferals" however, may have escaped from commercial outfits in the Santa Barbara area and may have resistant traits as a result of exposure to varroa. But what surprises me in all these discussions is the use of terms like "isolated" and "remote" without any effort or concern about defining them. Given that queens can fly up to ten miles to mate, how can one be certain that *any* bees are "remote" -- particularly if the term isn't even defined. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 04:37:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Unique Presentations - 2. Varroa Mites In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- "Adrian M. Wenner" wrote: ...Last week I gave much the same varroa talk > ("Feral Bee Colonies and > Varroa Resistance") at the California Beekeepers > Convention in South > Lake Tahoe. You can find an abstract of that talk > at: > > http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/varroaabstract.htm Hello Adrian, Is the below reference found in the abstract available for reading? ABSTRACT: Wenner, A.M. and R.W. Thorp. 2002. Collapse and resurgence of feral colonies after Varroa arrival. "Some individuals have now begun to exploit the potential that feral colonies provide. (By feral, I include managed colonies in remote areas that have had no treatment against varroa mites.)" Reply: This has been where I am focusing lately. What does this suggest that bees are recovering in remote areas so well? Any ongoing research in this area? Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:01:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee diseases In-Reply-To: <20051115042435.81360.qmail@web60417.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit chuck smith wrote: >Were did all the bee > diseases come from.Did they all orginate in asia or in europe. Short answer is yes. Because that is where the bees came from. To go beyond this is futile. Bill Truesdell - Or maybe Feral, which seem to be the synonym of futile. Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:52:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Russian techniques (was Succeeding with small cell) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ted & All, Ted asks: > could you give us a site that lists or discusses the management techniques used by the commercial Russian beekeepers? I know of none. These guys are very busy. Only one is very computer literate and he is trying to take care of close to 10,000 hives in almond pollination this winter. A vast untapped amount of Russian beekeeping knowledge exists with these beekeepers. I try to pick up methods and post on BEE-L tidbits learned either by direct contact or by phone. >It would be nice to compare and learn from them. Most are willing to share information. At least in exchange with me. I do not know of beekeepers thinking of doing a Russian commercial management site. I have been asked to do a Russian update for my only Russian article January 2005 in Bee Culture . > Is there a site where one can download your notes/slides from your presentations about Russian bee management? Not that I know of. I will do another post discussing Russian management as others have asked off list. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:02:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Russian techniques MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, All races of bees are similar but different. To get maximum performance you need to find a way to get the Russians to do what you need done in a commercial setting. The first year I simply noted the differences and went along for the ride. The observations in my first post are the result. The next year I actually tried to make the Russian/Russian behave like my Italians. Did not work. It was then I began looking at hybrids (which would take many posts to cover). I then decided to concentrate on using management to overcome what I considered to be the Russian problem areas. Coming out of winter honey bound and so small a cluster was my biggest concern. So will cover my big issue with the Russians as I do spring pollination and you need early bees for pollination in spring. Honey bound was simple to solve but involved labor ( pull combs of honey for nucs and replace with drawn comb). I can choose the new drawn frame location at a glance but the novice needs to choose wisely if cold nights are happening. The small cluster solution has been found but may be of use to only migratory beekeepers or those in an area of intense fall flows. My first experiment involved moving 54 Russian/Russian hives into the Blackwater River bottoms onto a 1,000 acres of heartsease in August. Those Russians looked like Italians for winter! The control group was left in row crop country and fed . The controls wintered with the small cluster despite me giving what they needed. Same queens both groups. I did another experiment using sunflowers and the Russians did not do as well. They did store plenty of pollen and built up fast in spring but small winter clusters. Above is only one Russian management issue I have dealt with and not wanting to bore the list perhaps specific questions need asked? Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:53:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Russian techniques MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, For the hobby beekeeper which sees honey as only a problem then the Russian bee is ideal. They are survivors! They can handle the mites. Unlike many of our currently available races the Russian/Russian bee takes survival very serious. They are constantly aware of their resources and keep a spare queen cell most of the time. They will NOT put up with a failing queen. They are very defensive of their hive (when a flow is not on) and do a good job of keeping a clean hive and keeping out wax moths & small hive beetle. They do use a bunch of propolis. About like the Caucasian race does. For the commercial & sideline beekeeper they present a problem in their pure form. Many beekeepers have been searching for the perfect Russian hybrid. Myself included. The main reason you have to discount many stories of poor results with the Russian is because of the many different hybrids being offered. Once you add a different drone source then things change. Some traits get better and some get worse. Painting the Russian hybrid with a broad brush is a mistake in my opinion. I have used many and only pleased with a few. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:08:48 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Unique Presentations - 2. Varroa Mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian, Is there a plan for systematic evaluation of feral bees for mite resistance? If yes, can you share the locations of the ferals being considered for evaluation? This should be a very exciting undertaking! Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:43:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ted Swenson Subject: Re: Russian techniques In-Reply-To: <004801c5ea06$6e0a4f80$12bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob, Great information. I have moved most of my Russians to California for the almonds. What techniques would you use to get them to build up early. I am use to the queens waiting for a pollen flow before starting the late winter/spring build up and I'm ready for the normal spring brood explosion. For several years I have put out the feeders (aka Allen Dick) with bee pro and they seem to work them pretty good. I just don't like to feed the entire neighborhood. Have you tried pollen paddies and if so how well did your Russians take them? Did it get the queens to build up sooner? Thanks, Ted > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:45:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/11/05 13:35:02 GMT Standard Time, glass_isis@YAHOO.COM writes: <> But then we have the example of UK bees, which developed resistance to tracheal mite in a relatively short time. From what I can gather, the small boxes traditionally used by UK beekeepers created a situation where badly infected colonies didn't survive, since they were more active in winter, used more stores, and starved as they ran out. This created major selection pressure, and the result is that TM is no longer a problem here. I think the assumption that evolution will always take a long time is a dodgy one. Two things are needed; firstly, a new gene has to develop, and spread through the population, at least at a low level. This may well take a long time. Secondly, selection pressure or genetic drift need to bring that gene to a dominant level within the population. This can happen quite quickly. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:03:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Russian techniques MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have moved most of my Russians to California for the almonds. What techniques would you use to get them to build up early. You will not be able to get bees and especially the Russians to brood up until after the winter solace in California. > I just don't like to feed the entire neighborhood. Will be worse in California if you are in the valley. Plenty of open feeding going on. We had three semi loads within a half mile of a beekeeper open feeding with 8 barrels. He commented to us he was surprised how much syrup he was going through. We said we were surprised how little we were feeding in our division feeders. >Have you tried pollen paddies and if so how well did your Russians take them? Did it get the queens to build up sooner? Mixed results. The Russians seem to start brooding when they want to and are hard to trick into brooding up. Once brooding has started in earnest then the Russians will use the patties. Bob- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:09:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <002301c5e0ce$1c492e50$4c722a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Our researchers told us years ago that when a varroa tolerant bee was made >available ( like over five years ago with the Russian, hygienic and SMR >stock) that many beekeepers would start claiming success for snake oil >treatments instead of giving the real reason credit. I’m staying out of this! I am not doubting you, but the other experts quoted below do not support the researchers clame that they should get the credit. These are quotes from others. Ask the source's below if you have any questions. Going back “like over five years ago” --------> Here’s a quote from the bee lab in Tucson lab that stated they were seeing resistance in the ferals as far back as 7 YEARS AGO! Now these are scientists mind you, and it does not support what your researchers are saying (possibly up to 2 years later) as to where the REAL CREDIT should go! Oct 6, 1998 “Concurrent data obtained from a study of feral colonies in Arizona also show a change toward varroa-tolerance.” http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/rf/abj/tolerant.html --------> Here’s a quote that states it is essential to find feral strains resistant to varroa for uce in domestic beekeeping. They make NO mention of looking at domestic breeds. Quote from Entomologists from Texas A&M Dec, 28, 1998 “Finding genetic strains of wild or "feral" honeybees that are resistant to the varroa mite is essential to the raising and care of bees for commercial or agricultural purposes. While the mite has nearly wiped out feral colonies, it is also decimating domesticated hives” http://agnews.tamu.edu/dailynews/stories/ENTO/Dec2898a.htm --------> Here’s a study that showed a 'domestic breed' DID NOT stand up against the 'wild bee breed'. No fancy traits here, just 'wild breed' against 'domestic breed'. If the researchers SMR breeds are saving the ferals as you say. Then why aren’t they saving the domestic breeds also? This nullifies the claim that Science is saving the ferals. “Although we found fewer feral swarms than anticipated, we collected six feral swarms and maintained them at the Staley Farm. As of January 26 five of these colonies were still alive, even though they had not been treated for mites. In contrast, all five colonies of Italian honey bees (the most common line in the U.S.) held under similar conditions were dead.” http://www.agr.state.il.us/C2000/fy98/98-11.html --------> Here’s one by the Purvis Brothers that states ferals may be surviving due to ‘natural resistance’, no mention of SMR here either. “As we all know the wild bees are few and far between. The ones that are surviving may simply be surviving because of natural resistance or maybe the pest load is too low to completely overcome these colonies.” http://www.purvisbrothersbees.com/purvisbrothers/philosophy/ Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:41:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <12e.6a375502.30aba2e2@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-49F4345C > But then we have the example of UK bees, which developed resistance to >tracheal mite in a relatively short time...the small boxes >traditionally used by UK beekeepers created a situation where badly infected >colonies didn't survive...TM is no longer a problem here. Our bees developed resistance quickly, and we don't use small boxes. Just bred from the survivors. TM is no longer a problem here. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.0/167 - Release Date: 11/11/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:51:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Unique Presentations - 1. Bees & Odours MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what could be > added to my honeybee presentations to help make them > more interesting and unique. > > I'm thinking about incorporating an interactive short > course on the 'Waggle Dance' into my presentations for > the kids. Possibly making a simple display with the > 'sun' and 'hive'. Then doing a waggle dance with a > toy bee. The kids then could use a simple chart to > figure on a map the forage location the bee is > dancing. I attended a work- related course on presentation techniques a long time ago, before I had even heard of Adrian Wenner. We each had to make a presentation and, having drawn the post-prandial graveyard slot I knew I would have to do something active to keep my colleagues awake. So I chose the subject 'Bring on the Dancing Girls', and explained with the aid of a simply constructed cardboard hinged artefact the theory. I then got them on their feet and directed one of the group to be the 'dancing girl' while the remainder became the 'attendants', their extended arms acting as antennae. I chose the dancer not entirely by random as he was not my favourite person. If I had to do the presentation again perhaps I should add some scent to his clothing and also to a lure at the indicated distance and direction to assist them in appreciating part of the many faceted tool that the bees use. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 23:06:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a study that showed a 'domestic breed' DID NOT stand up against the 'wild bee breed'. Joe you really need to read these before posting. This study is not a year old? Proves nothing. Primitive! Most likely the hives died from bad beekeeping practice over the Illinois winter. 97-98 were tough years because of varroa. Proves how easy grant money is to get and how primitive research can find its way on to the net in incomplete form. Purvis Brothers: "As we all know the wild bees are few and far between. The ones that are surviving may simply be surviving because of natural resistance or maybe the pest load is too low to completely overcome these colonies." I agree completely with the Purvis Brothers quote! Dann says "true survivor ferals" are few and far between but exist. Dann gives his opinion as to why and I concur completely! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:17:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: Unique Presentations - 2. Varroa Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Adrian and group, I read this input and have to respond since it is not true about the claim that Scandinavian beekeepers are not allowed to use any chemicals in their colonies. I can't speak for the other countries, but it is for instance allowed to use Apistan if the beekeeper in question has obtained a licence, (he will have to take a certain course in order to get the licence and some years experience in beekeeping ara presumed too). Also, the use of oxalic acid is completely free. So if you call oxalic acid and Apistan chemicals then yes, they do use chemicals in Sweden (not me though, none of them!) Ron van Mierlo Sweden ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian M. Wenner" ...... ................. Scandinavian beekeepers are not allowed to use any chemicals in their colonies . Recent articles in the American Bee Journal provide some information about the "Elgon" bees that some of them use. Prior to the Congress, Marianne and Sven Ohlsson of Finland sent me the following: ................ Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 04:39:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <003001c5ea6b$8ee06cc0$22bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: My comments > on this report is in the > archives! Your entitled to your opinion. But I produce this quote to the 'list members' for reading. Not interested weather it meets your approval. I'm sure no mater what evidence to the contrary is produced you will have, had have or had, gonna have, already had an opinion on it. Anyhow this is concurrent data from another study, I’m not defending the study, I just find this quote interesting that they are finding varroa tolerance in the ferals before the time you say that they were saved by the breeding of smr bees etc. QUOTE: “Concurrent data obtained from a study of feral colonies in Arizona also show a change toward varroa-tolerance.” > got in trouble years ago on BEE-L talking about this > report. Politics? In the American beekeeping industrial complex? oh my. Most likely the > hives died from bad > beekeeping practice over the Illinois winter. 97-98 > were tough years because of varroa. concur completely! You can them conclude, that feral bees are more fit and more hardy able to stand up to bad beekeeping practices and tough varroa years. I agree! > I agree completely with the Purvis Brothers quote! > and I concur completely! We all concur then!!! The Purvis Bros say "ferals may be surviving due to ‘natural resistance’" So the ferals are surviving due to 'natural resistance' an NOT due to the 'saviors of scientific breeding'! We have to quit agreeing like this, might lead to boring conversations. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA Small Cell Beekeeping ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:21:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Tracheal Mites In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051115193750.021c5368@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer wrote: > TM is no longer a problem here. Interesting that with some apiaries in Maine it is a problem but just not recognized. It took a visit by the State Bee Inspector to point that out to a beekeeper (commercial) who though he lost his hives to Varroa. I doubt if that is confined to Maine. The problem with Tracheal is it is overshadowed by Varroa, so if there is one Varroa mite found in a failed colony, Varroa is blamed where it could have been Tracheal mites. In addition, some Varroa treatments may (and probably do) work for both mites, so it is easy to think that Tracheal is not a problem. You can select for Tracheal resistant bees, and I did so. I would only caution that the mites have not departed. Many beekeepers have no idea what to look for, other than a dead Varroa mite on the bottom boards. Most do not bother to pop a couple of heads and look for Tracheal Mites in a failed colony because Varroa is easy to see and to blame. You can still have Tracheal Mites and not see that they are your real problem. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:56:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: non-virulent mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit quotes: We all concur then!!! The Purvis Bros say "ferals may be surviving due to ‘natural resistance’" ... So the ferals are surviving due to 'natural resistance' an NOT due to the 'saviors of scientific breeding'! commentary: Not to put too fine a point on it, but in one breath you quote "ferals MAY be surviving", and then translate it to "ARE surviving". You use terms like "somewhat genetically different", feral, remote, isolated, etc. without anyone EVER agreeing on what is meant by these terms. Look: a swarm occurring in the wild HAD to come from somewhere. Another colony! Where is that colony? Presumably within a mile, so you could have this chain of colonies leading back to the original apiary where the bees came from. No real isolation at all. I have discussed "feral colonies" in the NE woods with a certain Dr. --- and he reminds us that the survival of these swarms MAY be due to the presence of non-virulent mites. Mites can adapt, too. Better for them not to kill the host. I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:10:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Caveat emptor (was Succeeding with small cell) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> We all concur then!!! The Purvis Bros say "ferals may be >> surviving due to 'natural resistance'" ... So the ferals are >> surviving due to 'natural resistance' and NOT due to the >> 'saviors of scientific breeding'! > > (you translate) "MAY be surviving" > to "ARE surviving". Furthermore, the translated conclusion was taken out of context, leaving the other half of Dann's speculation that possibly the feral colonies are surviving because mite levels don't reached a point where they snuff the feral bees. In other words, it may not be the bees, per se, it may be the mites! In computer science and applied logic there is a saying, "Start with false assumptions and you can prove anything!" Aaron Morris - thinking readers beware claims based on faulty assumptions. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:20:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Russian techniques .. feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not suprised on how much syrup he was going through. Here we calculate one barrel for 10 hives for winter feeding and it normally takes two fine days to empty the barrels! I wish l had a beekeeper like him close to my yards! Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Harrison" > > Will be worse in California if you are in the valley. Plenty of open feeding > going on. We had three semi loads within a half mile of a beekeeper open > feeding with 8 barrels. He commented to us he was surprised how much syrup > he was going through. We said we were surprised how little we were feeding > in our division feeders. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:50:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Russian techniques .. feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, >Here we calculate one barrel for 10 hives for winter feeding and it normally takes two fine days to empty the barrels! We had to feed about the same here for this winter. Our group went through two tanker loads. A couple gallons per hive is normal but the drought burned up the fall flowers. I expect to see some sad faces next spring at our bee meetings. Many hives will have starved in Missouri this winter if the hives were not given some supplimental feeding. Stored honey also helps insulate the bees from wind chill. We have got temps outside today in the 20 F. range with wind blowing out of the north at 25-30 MPH. Might not see a day the bees can break cluster for a long time. Those hives not properly prepared for winter could be in trouble . > I wish l had a beekeeper like him close to my yards! He was a friendly and helpful fellow. He let us borrow his MT feed drums to use. We fed only the hives needing feed and used inside feeders. The method used which others might find useful. A brilliant idea we came up with! I had never heard of being used before. My partner & I had sent two 2,000 lb. bags of scrap granulated sugar to California on the back of a semi to feed with if needed. These bags (for those which have never seen) are a huge tough bag with straps with which they can be picked up with a fork lift or crane. In the bottom is a flap which the sugar flows from when opened (If you have got a use for these type of bags please email as I have got a few I would part with). Fructose is high in California. Around four cents a pound higher than in the Midwest. So when the bees needed a feeding my partner and I flew to California . We had a swinger forklift and pump in California but no drums or way to liquefy the sugar. We borrowed the drums from the above beekeeper. Rented a small U haul ( 19.95 day local use) to haul the drums and pump. We rented a hot water commercial pressure washer in Fresno ( approx.. $100 a day for one day). Poured the dry sugar in the barrels. Fired up the hot water steam cleaner and shoved the wand into the barrel of granulated sugar. Worked great! At the end of the day we steam cleaned the truck. We almost got stuck in the sand of the bee fields with the U haul but always got unstuck. We also had a brand new rental car in the fields with us. Luckily we did not jump in the rental car with a hive tool in our back pocket or spill syrup in the car! Bob " Again we proved the concerns of rental car companies & Uhaul to renting vehicles to commercial beekeepers are unfounded" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:10:19 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Caveat emptor (was Succeeding with small cell) In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092103311C99@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I'm sure no mater what evidence to the contrary is produced you will have, had have or had, gonna have, already had an opinion on it. The old adage is that when someone points a finger at someone else, the person pointing the finger only needs to look down to see that all the other fingers are pointing in the right direction. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:14:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Epigenetics > When science stops "constantly rewriting itself" > it stops being science. This is very true, but the "rewrites" don't tend to be major rewrites. They tend to be "tweaks". The lay public has a hard time getting a perspective on how "major" or "minor" a change is, as every single new thing tends to be hyped by the popular press as "The Next Big Thing". Even highly technical accounts written for researchers in other fields tend to give less-than excellent perspective. At some point, one has to hit the books, read the actual papers, and invest some time and energy. It is all hard work to do, so it should be expected to be hard to understand. :) In the case of "Epigenetics", we must take care to notice that no one is claiming that the chemical modifications of DNA that affect expression (phenotype) are changing the genetic code itself (genotype). I think Bill was very much on target when he compared "epigenetic" changes to overt damage caused by radiation. None of this resurrects Lamarckism ("acquired traits"), so none of it undermines the existing understanding of inherited traits. The clear proof is that we, having enjoyed a childhood with "all the advantages" western civilization and medicine can bestow, have not enjoyed any POSITIVE "epigenetic" changes due to our exceptionally well-fed and well-cared-for embryonic and fetal development periods. I myself am excellent proof that even the best upbringing can't make a better human being. :) So, "epigenetic" changes simply mean "damage". Just like Bill's example of radiation exposure. And of course it has the potential to cause problems for the offspring. That's a no-brainer. > To many scientists, epigenetics amounts to a heresy Who are these "many scientists"? I'd like a list please, as "epigenetic" changes are not the subject of much current debate, nor are they particularly upsetting to any aspect of current genetic understanding. You want something freaky, something scary, something that DID change aspects of our understanding of basic biology, go look up "prions", which forced drafting of a "special case" exception to the generally true statement that all living organisms use nucleic acids to reproduce. > When I find myself slipping into a debate about a scientific > issue with someone, I take a sidestep and ask, > "Is it conceivable that your "fixed idea" is wrong? This sort of loaded question is tantamount to asking the scientist to stand upon the shoulders of the giants that came before him only to pull the hair and tweak the ears of the aforementioned giants. While many scientists find themselves re-combing the hair and trimming the beards of the giants, few want to be accused of trying to pull out their hair in handfuls. Such attempts are not only in poor taste, they are almost always doomed to failure. Some discoveries, like prions, can put a whole new part in the hair of the giants. Very very seldom do we find anything that would cause the giants any pain, let alone topple the giants. The cool thing about beekeeping is that one can attend meetings and sit beside some of the giants upon whose shoulders we stand. :) jim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:30:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, For the Russian beekeepers out here, could you give us a site that lists or discusses the management techniques used by the commercial Russian beekeepers? It would be nice to compare and learn from them. Is there a site where one can download your notes/slides from your presentations about Russian bee management? Are you talking about beekeeping practices in Russia or about the use of strains of bees based on imported genetic material a few years ago? If the former, I made some contacts at Apimondia with people marketing Russian hive products from the Urals and could ask them for pointers. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:33:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dann Purvis II Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <200511161356.jAGDp9rQ002617@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Isis, The subject line "Re: [BEE-L] non-virulent mites", really caught my attention. Has been one of my favorite subjects for several years. Anyway, I have been telling all who will let me bore them that mite genetics are extremely important to the chemical free beekeeping equation. SOME of us breed bees but MOST of us breed mites. The big question is; what kind of mite are we breeding? Somewhere between "I believe" and "I know" is where I stand on the following. If you use most miticides you not only end up with a pesticide resistant mite but you also end up with an extra virulent, or faster breeding or a uglier, or a bigger, or smaller or a....some kind of Mite. The point is, when we remove the current limit (death) then we end up developing a new limit or new selection pressure. The short term effect of chemical treatment is you rescue the mite population and save the bee population of the treated hive. This includes the most dangerous or virulent mites. In fact, I believe you actually increase the numbers of more virulent mites. The illusion is, "we are helping the bees". If fact, we are only prolonging and promoting an inevitable outcome and that is the collapse of both host (bee) and parasite (mite). When you use these treatments, you temporarily remove the chance that the mite population would kill itself if it kills off its host. Because we can never get 100 % mite fall with any practical treatment we will leave behind a population that simply adjusts to different pressures. Even though it is a smaller population it is still alive. Combine these points with the fact that V mites are the poster child species on adaptability, you have a lethal situation when you start using miticides. Also, if using most miticides you end up with comb that is contaminated with chemicals that eventually can and often do reach levels that at the least cause small clusters and at the most cause total hive collapse. I believe there are three factors critical to chemical free beekeeping: 1. Survivor bee genetics 2. Superior mite genetics 3. Uncontaminated hives. All three factors are essential to form a healthy hive. The first two are essential to forming a natural or balanced host/parasite relationship. I can only guess as to the proportion of each but again, I am sure all three are necessary for long term success. However, I do NOT believe it is an equal proportion for each. If I had to make a swag at the breakdown based on several years of observation and assisting commercial beekeepers go chemical free, I would break it down like so: Survivor queen genetics 50%, Superior mite genetics 30% to 40%, and 10 to 20 % is clean uncontaminated comb. Some day, I hope to have conclusive evidence as to why and how. For now I am settling with with what I know. I don't need to touch the flame to know it is hot. I did not go into pest/disease loading technique, drift, etc., but they do also have a place. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:54:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris & All, >Are you talking about beekeeping practices in Russia or about the use of strains of bees based on imported genetic material a few years ago? I believe Ted was looking for information on the import Primorsky bees as he said he ran the Russian bee and had moved his hives into California for Almond pollination. > I made some contacts at Apimondia with people marketing Russian hive products from the Urals and could ask them for pointers. An excellent idea Chris if they run A.m. macedonica and you would not mind! I might even be able to get information myself as a friend of mine Terry Brown has a Russian commercial beekeeper girlfriend. The Russian bee came to us without instructions. Others saw the Russian bee as too complicated and tossed in the towel. I saw the Russian bee as the first beekeeping challenge other than varroa to spark my interest in a long time. What a strange little race of bee I thought! Many said the bee was simply another carniolan race. Not! I have ran plenty of carniolans over the years and the Primorsky bee was different. The Yugo bee I got to experiment with 12 years ago was to me like a carniolan in many ways. I was able through inbreeding to produce a survivor Yugo but the project took many years. I may try some outcrossing in the coming year. The correct name for the Primorsky bee is A.m. macedonica. Many different races are used in Russia. Many carniolan races. The information on the keeping of the A.m. macedonica would be of interest to me. Both Dann Purvis and myself on considering dropping the Primorsky bee. The main reason is we have got a better all around bee in our opinion. Still we both are willing to share our observations with those US beekeepers working with the Primorsky bee. We both have got quite a few Primorsky Russian hives and the phase out will take a couple years. I will without a doubt keep a yard around to observe and experiment with. Tim Tucker (president of the Kansas Honey Producers) did a Russian/Italian cross this summer and all the F1 hives were full of chalkbrood! Neither line had ever had a sign of chalkbrood but when crossed the genetics turned on Tim. Hybrids can be all over the board! One of Tim's first calls was to me! The only possible answer was in the combination of genetics. What does the list think? Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:35:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Getting the Word Out - (Fwd: Wired Small Cell Now Available) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To BEE-L members: Just wanted to let you all know that Dadant is now going to sell wired small cell foundation for those that want wired foundation and not just plain wax foundation. So now you have a choice. Wired or not wired foundation to buy! This sure will save a lot of time and effort for those not liking to wire frames and embed wax. Respectfully Submited: Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ --- Joe Graham wrote: > From: "Joe Graham" > To: "Dee Lusby" > Subject: Wired Small Cell Now Available > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:41:31 -0600 > > Hello Dee, > > Just a quick note to let you know we now have 8 1/2 inch > wired small cell foundation available for beekeepers who > don't want to wire their own small cell frames. You > might want to let any small cell beekeepers know who buy > their own foundation. Thanks > > Best regards, > Joe Graham > American Bee Journal > 51 South 2nd St > Hamilton IL 62341 > Phone 217-847-3324 > Fax 217-847-3660 > www.dadant.com __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:35:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: non-virulent mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, The list gets a brief glimpse into the mind of Dann Purvis! Drawn into posting by a subject dear to his heart. Dann is an example of private beekeeping research. His only agenda to help a troubled industry! Dann comes from an IBM and military background. I agree completely with his posting. The commercial beekeeping industry of the world is propped up by chemicals. If the industry had the choices in the late 80's & early 90's we have got today then perhaps the industry would have made better choices. If the list goes back to my statements back then I urged the industry not to follow the lead of Europe. Sadly the industry did embrace the chemical *quick fix* and make the same mistakes as our European friends. In fact some would say make more serious mistakes by only riding one chemical treatment at a time instead of at the very least alternating treatments. I will say that Dann & I are amazed at the lack of interest in queen producers to embrace a varroa tolerant bee and both national groups to not try and encourage their members to get off the chemical treadmill instead of making resolutions to find and register new chemicals. Taking Dann's comments further there are what our researchers call "super mites". They are the product of chemical treatments gone bad! All varroa are not equal! Pick up some of these varroa and none of our current chemical methods provide a decent control. The warning signs are all over the *other* bee list. Story after story of beekeepers using formic & OA etc. and still seeing high varroa loads. Checkmite (coumaphos) was a big killer of varroa at first but look how fast "super mites " became resistant. I guess I might as well be the first to say on a public forum that I have heard direct reports of "super varroa" not being killed by OA & formic! The answer lies in the varroa tolerant bee , clean comb and stopping creating super mites by chemical treatments! Thanks to Dann Purvis for sharing his views on the subject. Views we both share and discuss by phone frequently! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:23:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: evolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:27:21 -0700, allen dick wrote: >> Variation, selection, adaptation -- it all adds up to evolution. > >Not really, if we are simply looking at an expression of genes, rather than elimination of genes or generation of new ones. comment: Evolution on the grand scale is made up of all these smaller parts. Without variation, no change. Without selection, no adaptation. Here's a bit which goes into "microevolution" -- which is what we are talking about when we discuss "natural resistance" -- either in bees or mites, or any other life form. quote: Microevolution is evolution on a small scale — within a single population. That means narrowing our focus to one branch of the tree of life. If you could zoom in on one branch of the tree of life scale — the insects, for example — you would see another phylogeny relating all the different insect lineages. Microevolution is a change in gene frequency in a population and a population as a group of organisms that share a common gene pool — like all the individuals of one beetle species living on a particular mountaintop. There are a few basic ways in which microevolutionary change happens. Mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selection are all processes that can directly affect gene frequencies in a population. The environment may impose an external barrier to reproduction, such as a river or mountain range, between two incipient species but that external barrier alone will not make them separate, full-fledged species. Allopatry may start the process off, but the evolution of internal (i.e., genetically-based) barriers to gene flow is necessary for speciation to be complete. If internal barriers to gene flow do not evolve, individuals from the two parts of the population will freely interbreed if they come back into contact. Whatever genetic differences may have evolved will disappear as their genes mix back together. source: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IVADefinition.shtml -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:04:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Sulfa thiazole? > I'm just wondering where all the contaminated honey gets dumped. Every country views nearly every shipment of honey from another country as a form of "dumping". :) But contaminated honey is rarely, if ever, "dumped" (destroyed). The honey is rejected "at the dock" and most often is last seen being loaded back onto a truck, boat, train, or plane, destination unknown. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that matter can neither be created or destroyed. In contrast, the First Law of Honeydynamics states that while stuff that looks like honey CAN be created, nothing that looks even vaguely like honey will ever be destroyed. > Is it fed back to the bees, Its not too much of a stretch to say "never". > sold as feed, Why, when it can simply be shipped to a intermediate country and rexported again to the original destination with a very high probability of getting through undetected on the second attempt? > blended to below detection limits Yes, often. > or ultra filtered? Also yes. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:17:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: evolution > That evolution takes time is key What about "punctuated equilibria" (Eldredge and Gould 1972)? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:55:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dann Purvis II wrote: > SOME of us breed bees but MOST of us breed mites. A general statement that has some truth but I would go no further than that. The dynamics of host and parasite can end up with the host disappearing from the scene and no change to the parasite which may exist just fine on another host. Mosquitoes do not need people. Fleas do not need dogs. If both man and his best friend disappeared from the earth, mosquitoes and fleas would still be around. Another interesting supposition that I will put forth is based on the fact that there is more than one species of Varroa and both are in the US. That caused confusion in the beginning because Varroa destructor was mis-identified as Varroa jacobsoni. In fact, there are two more Varroa species that are known. So maybe Varroa j can crowd out Varroa d. or maybe there is one or more other Varroa out there confusing the dynamics. So maybe what you are seeing with feral bees is not Varroa d at all. Maybe it selected itself out of the environment and a less destructive Varroa took its place. And maybe some Varroa succumb to the virus' they vector, hence that is the control. Maybe small cell selects for one Varroa over another. We are really at the beginning of knowledge about the dynamics of what is going on in the area of Varroa tolerance. As far as breeding a better mite, I have been in that camp for a long time. But it is conjecture. I could argue with myself and be right since there is little to show that either side of the argument is wrong, at least at this time. We just do not know enough. Bill Truesdell (who says conjecture is the lifeblood of the BeeL.) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:11:49 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: *** SPAM *** Re: [BEE-L] non-virulent mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: > If the list goes back to my statements back then I urged the industry not > to > follow the lead of Europe. Sadly the industry did > embrace the chemical *quick fix* and make the same mistakes as our > European > friends. I had intended to lurk for a while, thinking that I had perhaps stirred up enough debate, but I cannot let this one pass! Bob - that is a bit too broad brush for me! Certainly some in Europe have made big mistakes, but I am sure that you know that it is not true that everyone here 'embraced the chemical quick fix'. A huge amount of time and effort has gone into pure research that taught everyone a great deal about varroa and the associated viruses (e.g. the work of Brenda Ball, Norman Carreck, Stephen Martin). Many of us have avoided the hard chemicals completely, preferring to use soft chemicals, drone trapping, mesh floors etc. just to buy enough time to enable us to find the best solutions that do not use chemicals. For a long time now, there has been great emphasis on IPM. No doubt you will correct me if I am wrong, but I always had the impression that it was our friends in the USA who believed that they could solve any problem by throwing chemicals (or bullets) at it ... :-) Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk Who is not troubled by resistant mites (or AFB)! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:24:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: evolution On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:17:14 -0500, James Fischer wrote: >> That evolution takes time is key > >What about "punctuated equilibria" (Eldredge and Gould 1972)? > It is still thought to require time: "the period of transition between parent species and daughter species is short compared to the period of time a species exists as a distinct form ... PE is not a saltational* theory of evolution." http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html *saltation: Discontinuous movement, transition, or development; advancement by leaps. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:22:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Gilles Maguet Subject: State of US honeybee colonies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings from the cool northern prairies. Winter arrived this week with a substantial snowfall for some areas and temperatures dipping -20 celcius or colder. I believe that our cold winters has curtailed varroa mites. If a hive dies as a result of mite infestation, so do the mites. A large concern is procuring good queens for next May. I have heard of colonies in the US allready experiencing large losses. Last year, this was the same story, however, the "facts" seem to be obscured by rumours and heresay. I haven't come across any information that would substantiate the scope and consequences of such high mortalities. If the claims of bee losses are allready circulating, is this fear mongering? Is chicken little at work here? Is there any source that can verify or debunk such stories? Gilles -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:38:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <200511161356.jAGDp9rQ002617@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 16, 2005, at 5:56 AM, Isis Glass wrote (in part): I have discussed "feral colonies" in the NE woods with a certain Dr. --- and > he reminds us that the survival of these swarms MAY be due to the > presence > of non-virulent mites. Mites can adapt, too. Better for them not to > kill the > host. I made the same suggestion six years ago at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjsep1999.htm Surviving feral bee colonies are more widespread than some might assume. Adrian > Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:12:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: *** SPAM *** Re: [BEE-L] non-virulent mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, >Bob - that is a bit too broad brush for me! The UK came along later and should not be included I suppose but have certainly for the most part got on the Vita Europe bandwagon. Italy was the source for most information when I sat through discussions on what the industry in the U.S. Needed. First Fluvalinate & then coumaphos. Each used by itself and one right after the other. Even when the U.S. industry was pushing for a section 18 for coumaphos reports were of wax contamination and coumaphos resistant mites in less than three years from Italian sources yet the commercial U.S. beekeepers pressed forward. I see the wax contamination from the use of Apistan and then Checkmite to brood comb as a serious problem. Reason I changed all my brood comb! Talks by Jeff Pettis (Beltsville Bee Lab )and slides shown of the problem have fell on deaf ears for most commercial beekeepers in the U.S.. Many continue to spend money on every other aspect of their beekeeping operation rather than cull those chemical contaminated comb! For those which doubt what myself, Dee Lusby and Dann Purvis say about uncontaminated comb set up an experiment next season. Put a yard on all new comb and another yard on the comb you used chemicals on for the last decade. I did! Then I went to replacing comb! I could not afford both the time & money to do the replacement in a single year so replaced over several years! I finnished last spring with help of new drawn comb used only in supers I bought from the Bell Honey Farm sell off. > Certainly some in Europe have made big mistakes, but I am sure that you know that it is not true that everyone here 'embraced the chemical quick fix'. Everyone in the U.S. did not embrace the chemical quick fix especially at the start. Dee Lusby helped pave the way. Forget small cell for a minute and look at her philosophy.. Chemicals are a dead end street and only make 'super varroa"! Sure I have used chemicals as I make a large part of my living from beekeeping! I did what I had to do to survive and paid the price (mostly from contaminated wax and creating tough varroa through chemicals) but I understood what I was doing! All the while I was spending hour after hour trying to come up with a non chemical solution. When I did I got off the chemical treadmill , replaced wax and now am looking to a bright beekeeping future. Back to Peter's comments: I believe its fair to say the chemical solution was the preferred method of treatment both in Europe (with possible exception of the U.K. & Scotland) & U.S. commercial beekeepers. Also both areas rode a single treatments into the ground before switching to the second which they then rode into the ground. Broad brush or not the above is a fair statement of the history. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:09:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: State of US honeybee colonies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In late 2004 and early 2005 there was much discussion of massive losses countrywide. One or two calm voices on this list said, more or less, 'Every year there are large losses. The difference this year is that some of the loud mouths had the losses.' Yep, here in the northeast I personally know of commercial beekeepers who lost 1/3 of their hives during August/October. I have heard second-hand of similar losses experienced by others. We had the 2nd wettest July on record= , and then went about 6 weeks without rain. The hives were in sorry condition before goldenrod. Some decided to collect the goldenrod and put on strips i= n October, rather than August. Those are among those who lost 1/3rd. I have seen very few commercial beekeepers go to formic, although it is no= w legal and this climate is just about ideal. The reasons seem to be: (1) migratory covers will not do the job, (2) the pads are expensive compared t= o the homemade (illegal) uses of fluvalinate and coumaphous, (3) a reluctance to add another piece of equipment in the form of spacers between the cover and the top hive body. Maybe next spring more will be willing to use formic= . On the other hand, those few commercial beekeepers who use formic and oxalic (not legal) seem to be doing just fine...at this early date. Perhaps those who lost 1/3rd from August-October just took their winter losses early? That is my guess, but we'll never know for sure. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:30:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <002301c5e0ce$1c492e50$4c722a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I hope the moderator would approve of this post. I am looking for beekeepers that ‘do not use treatments’ on their bees OR plan on ending treatments soon, that wish to discuss and develop strategies and techniques that may be employed for the purpose of collecting, assessing, and integrating woodland feral honeybee colonies into your beekeeping operation. Also interested in discussing untreated acclimated survivor colonies and exploring more natural type breeding methods and strategies that small operations can use which may promote genetic variability and increased mating frequencies with desired stock specifically in mountain mating yards or other such isolated woodland areas. Also, highly interested in hearing from beekeepers located in mountainous regions of the north east, but all are welcome. Possible future interests include developing a network of beekeepers who are 'actively seeking woodland ferals' and are interested in queen swaps for the purpose of exchanging genetic material from that of these woodland ferals. Please contact me 'off list', all replies are kept confidential. I'm sorry, but I will not respond to replies sent other than my personal inbox. In the subject line please write ’Feral Bee Project’ naturebee@yahoo.com Best Wishes, Joe __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:05:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: State of US honeybee colonies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lloyd wrote: We had the 2nd wettest July on record. That wasn't how I remembered things, so I went to local weather charts = to check. Actually, June was very wet, carrying into July 1 when it = rained 3 inches. Excepting July 1, July was drier than average and = definitely hotter than average. Up to July 1 the bees were doing quite = well, but things came to a screeching halt after that as things stayed = very hot and very dry into goldenrod, when the rain returned with a = vengeance. October totaled almost 9 inches of rain! =20 So it was a very unusual season in these parts. The bees (or at least = my bees) took back stores during the summer they had capped in June. = This was a season that even the loosestrife failed, and legend has it = that loosestrife NEVER fails. It did this year. I suspect things got = so bad during the mid to late summer that queens shut down and never = recovered once the rains returned. My recollection is that there were 3 = solid weeks of rain from September into October. Most whom I've talked = to are very worried they will suffer heavy winter losses. Count me as = one of them. Yes Bob, I am admitting dismal winter losses and it's not = even Thanksgiving. I'd be combining the weak with the strong, but = almost everything is weak. =20 I did use formic pads when I pulled supers in September, and things = looked promising then. But I am not pleased with how my bees look at = this point in time. Small clusters and hives were light. I fed copious = amounts of HFCS in October, but I fear too little, too late. =20 I am hearing similar stories from many in this area (way upstate NY and = Western Massachusetts). =20 Aaron Morris - thinking silent spring. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:51:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: State of US honeybee colonies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I have not heard of high losses *so far* this year. I have heard as Lloyd said of beekeepers leaving supers on late. Some have even still got supers on! Those hives have not had any kind of varroa treatment nor fall feeding. I think its early to tell the state of my areas hives. My partner & I are looking at the best bees we have seen in years! We had to feed extra but we are sitting back confident our hives will come through our winter in great shape. My partner has been hunting deer each day and I have been catching up on reading old bee books & magazines! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:52:55 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Heeeelloooo Bee-L, > >Are you talking about beekeeping practices in Russia or about the use of > strains of bees based on imported genetic material a few years ago? > > I believe Ted was looking for information on the import Primorsky bees I have a desire to know how the beekeepers of Primorsky manage their bees. Details like equipment, breeding, foundation or how bees are allowed to draw comb, how colonies are provided for nutritional needs, weather conditions, etc.?/* I have not been able to find these and other details out about their Primorsky bee, I guess I may never find out. This would be of great interest and help to me in understanding this very important honey bee. The Russian bee may even show more if it were managed as it is being managed in Primorsky. Wouldn't it be interesting to find out more of this bees origin? > The Russian bee came to > us without instructions. Others saw the Russian bee as too complicated and > tossed in the towel. I saw it as a bee that had many traits that fit my location and particular style of beekeeping, I would really like to learn more of this bees history. > The correct name for the Primorsky bee is A.m. macedonica. > Do we have discovery? or is this a good guess? If this is the case this bee should be considered for incorporating into breeding programs to improve the Primorsky bee for commercial use while maintaining varroa tolerance. > Both Dann Purvis and myself on considering dropping the Primorsky bee. > A shame, it is by far the best bee I have so far used for my location and it takes to small cells well. > Tim Tucker (president of the Kansas Honey Producers) did a Russian/Italian > cross this summer and all the F1 hives were full of chalkbrood! > All I have worked with so far are crosses and the one I liked was Russian/Carniolan and subsequently the off spring of my strongest survivors of this cross. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska USA, http://www.cer.org/, c(((([ , Apiarian, http://takeoff.to/alaskahoney/, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Norlandbeekeepers/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ApiarianBreedersGuild/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:57:03 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: State of US honeybee colonies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not sure what is going on over here on the Central Coast of CA. I had about 70 hives through the year, with less production than normal. I went down to 50 over the last couple months at the end of the 6 months we get no rain, due to a number of factors. But we got some rain, the eucalyptus are blooming, the temps are in the low 70s and I'm still getting swarm calls, like today. The bees are bringing in tons of pollen and there's that nice honey smell outside the stronger hives. Fifth year of Check mite, and probably my last, took the strips out two weeks ago. With my luck, they'll build up strong over the next month, then it will rain until Feb! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 21:57:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: State of US honeybee colonies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello to All, I appreciate what Aaron and Lloyd have said about the weather. The weather has been tough on us here in the Mideast. We had rain to stop the sourwood flow around the fourth of July. Cloudy and rainy for about a week after the fourth then a hot and dry summer in the 90's until just before September when we had about 3/4 of an inch, just enough to excite the ladies into laying; the goldenrod flow had been already blooming for almost 3 weeks with very little moisture in the ground. Since the first of September we have had about an inch of rain until yesterday's passing of a cold front. The asters bloomed awful late. Needless to say, our bees have consumed most of their spring honey and with such a small fall flow folks that did not feed are left with light hives and small clusters going into winter. My own opinion is that this will indeed be a hard winter for survival here in the south and mideast. I checked out NOAA's drought site, http://www.drought.unl.edu/dm/monitor.html, this morning and shared this information with my friend who lives near Hamilton, IL. Just north of Hamilton and north to the Wisconsin border, a great part of Illinois is listed as having an extreme drought. Hamilton is listed as severe, and points south fare better. The corner of Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas, and Oklahoma then south to Mississippi is another area of great concern. Then there is eastern Washington and Oregon, most of Idaho Wyoming and Montana and down the western spine of the Rockies and the eastern part of the Great Basin to eastern Arizona and most of New Mexico where levels of drought occur. Seems that a whole lot of this country is mighty thirsty, the fall flows were too! Winter just may be one of those that breaks the bank, and I am not talking about rivers – lets hope not! Check you hives now for weight and feed if needed; and, on the first warm day available check out hive strength and combine where needed. Continue to feed until stores are sufficient for your area. Queens for spring are already in short supply, now is that time to start thinking about raising your own. Who knows what weather winter will bring, let’s hope and pray that spring will be an answer to our prayers. Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:13:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: AL BOEHM Subject: Re: feed failure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bee Listers I started fall feeding 2 weeks ago with several light hives, usually they take it down quite rapidly but the girls have not touched the syrup. Question is, the syrup is left over from spring feeding, can it go bad? The syrup looks and smells ok. Never had bees not take syrup before and these colonies are light enough to take a couple gallons rapidly. Thanks for this great resource AL BOEHM Columbus NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:15:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: A.m. macedonica On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:54:59 -0600, Bob Harrison wrote: >The correct name for the Primorsky bee is A.m. macedonica. I find this somewhat curious. Why would the bees of far eastern Russia be macedonica bees, which originate from Greece? One would expect them to be a mixture, at least. I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:26:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: *** SPAM *** Re: [BEE-L] non-virulent mites Hi Guys, >No doubt you will correct me if I am wrong, but I always had the impression that it was our friends in the USA who believed that they could solve any problem by throwing chemicals (or bullets) at it ... :-) Well, we've certianly thrown just about every chemical WMD(weapon of mite destruction) at them. First, because many beekeepers were cheap. Then, lastly, because they were desperate. Who knows what would have happened if the softer chemicals, IPM, small cell, Russian bees, SMR, etc. had not appeared over the horizon. And they wouldn't have, if some individuals didn't have the determination to swim upstream against the prevailing current. Forget bullets. I think some of US beekeepers would have employed the nuclear option! :>)) Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:33:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: State of US honeybee colonies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Aaron & All, I am always sad when i hear of beekeeper problems. Sorry to hear of the Northeast problems! I have had a couple silent springs myself (documented in the archives). Hopefully spring will bring good news instead of bad news! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 00:00:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: State of US honeybee colonies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Bob. My nucs in polystyrene look ok. I'll move them into an = unheadted shed to coddle them through the winter. I suspect that'll be = what saves my beehind. =20 Winter is alread set in here. Actually arrived today. Good feeding = weather through last weekend, but flurries today and no warmth through = next weekend. Wrapping to do, then wait for case weather. =20 Maybe I'll be surprised come spring. =20 Cheers, Aaron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 23:13:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Keith & All, >Wouldn't it be interesting to find out more of this bees origin? The next time I speak with Tom Rinderer or a Russian cooperator I will see what I can find out Keith. Charlie Harper (of our list) and I talk by phone every once in awhile and it has been awhile. Might give Charlie a call and see what he can share. Charlie is a "hunt & peck" typist and to quote Charlie when we first met: "I would rather talk on the phone than try to do long emails" I would rather talk on the phone with complicated subjects but have had three different hour long calls today which gets old but still I am flattered beekeepers want to call me and talk beekeeping. They seem to know when I am not busy which works out for me. > The correct name for the Primorsky bee is A.m. macedonica. Do we have discovery? or is this a good guess? Ruttner classified the Primorsky area bee as A.m.macedonica in 1988. Tom Rinderer sent Ruttner samples of the queens he was importing and Ruttner verified macedonica. The Primorsky bee is made up of races not seen in the U.S. EXCEPT for a *very small* percent of Italian & carniolan in *some* samples. I believe that the feisty nature of the Primorsky Russian/Russian comes from the high percent of Cyprian in the bee. Although the Cyprian bee was never (to my knowledge other than perhaps a bee lab for research) imported into the U.S. at one time we had a USDA beekeeping ace named E. L. Sechrist which had years of experience with the cyprian in other countries.His writings of the fifties sound like writings about "scuts". I can give some direct quotes if the list desires? >If this is the case this bee should be considered for incorporating into breeding programs to improve the Primorsky bee for commercial use while maintaining varroa tolerance. Several of us have been doing exactly that. Charlie Harper and the bee lab are doing selections also. >A shame as it is by far the best bee I have so far used for my location and it takes to small cells well. in my opinion the pure Russian/Russian is a tough bee to fit into a commercial operation although Tubbs , Manley and Charlie are doing so and report success! I will continue to work with the Russian II breeder queens and experiment but will not be adding Russian bees to my production line as I have been for the last four years. > the one I liked was Russian/Carniolan and subsequently the off spring of my strongest survivors of this cross. I liked the above cross but the cross was NWC. I liked the Russian/Purvis brothers gold line better but have only one season on those and I have had three years with the Russian/NWC cross. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:39:30 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kevin Gibbs Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <437C8BBD.9030008@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: Another interesting supposition that I will put forth is based on the fact that there is more than one species of Varroa and both are in the US. That caused confusion in the beginning because Varroa destructor was mis-identified as Varroa jacobsoni. In fact, there are two more Varroa species that are known. So maybe Varroa j can crowd out Varroa d. or maybe there is one or more other Varroa out there confusing the dynamics. Really? I thought varroa J could not reproduce on the european honeybee. I have read this quoted by Dr Anderson more than once. So what is varroa jacobsoni living and reproducing on in th US? Or is there another varroa I haven't considered? Kevin Gibbs. . -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 02:40:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tim moran Subject: Re: feed failure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Al, I had a couple gallons left over winter that I wasn't sure about. I asked myself what the value of sugar was compared to the value of bees to which It would be fed. I tossed the syrup. It can go bad. The first thing probably is fermentation. Ethanol and bees do not go together at all. Up until yesterday, when winter hit (well,ok, it got a lot colder at least) most of my bees had been taking all the syrup and pollen substitute I served up. I open fed the pollen sub; it was a blast to watch them, and follow the dusty little sweeties back to their homes. Among the 35 or so colonies I keep at home, I have some Russians, and successors open-mated with PBA Gold Line and a local Italian/Carniolan line maintained over 15 years, and it is fascinating to see the individual differences based on the genetic variation. Most took syrup right down, but a couple hardly touched it, all year long. Weatherwise, I've had similar experiences to other posters from the Northeast. That last stretch of mild weather was invaluable to me as far as allowing build up for winter survival. The bees were in far worse shape than I at first believed. Spring stores nearly vanished, combs nearly empty upstairs and down. After heavy feeding I'm a lot more confident that most will survive, but every warm spell we get I'll be mixing syrup. I agree, Al; this is a great resource. Good luck to you, and Happy Thanksgiving to everyone! Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:32:37 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have good experience with this race and will put together a short = article and post it later on today on this list. Best regards Roger White Cyprus. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 06:52:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: State of US honeybee colonies? In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C0F8A@UAEXCH.univ.alban y.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-67B5571A I am hearing similar stories from many in this area (way upstate NY and Western Massachusetts). My bees are about as far upstate NY as you can go...on the Canada border line. Colonies are packed with bees and honey going into the winter. Bees began capping honey before Dandelion, and continued all summer. Best colony average ever. Left the Goldenrod crop with the bees to winter on. Many are 50 pounds overweight. The bees seem more defensive than usual this Fall...might be the SMR (sorry) bees I'm raising. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.0/167 - Release Date: 11/11/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:13:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: non-virulent mites quote: Who knows what would have happened if the softer chemicals, IPM, small cell, Russian bees, SMR, etc. had not appeared over the horizon. And they wouldn't have, if some individuals didn't have the determination to swim upstream against the prevailing current. Response: Not true. Beekeepers have been using a variety of techniques from the very beginning. If grease patties, essential oils, screens, etc, would have worked as well as insecticides, they would have been widely adopted instead of chems. Chemicals have always been viewed as a last resort. No beekeeper ever *wanted* to put chemicals in the hive, knowing full well that honey's reputation as a natural product could be ruined by such practices. Beekeepers do what they have to, to keep their bees alive. Every beekeeper I know wants a non-chemical alternative. That is the prevailing current. Look into the history: "Varroa mite [was] found in Indonesia (Oudemans 1904), Singapore (Gunther 1951), and USSR (Breguetova 1953); it was found on Apis m. mellifera in Hong Kong (Delfinado 1963) and Philippines (Delfinado 1963). It quickly spread to the Peoples Republic of China (Ian Tzien-He 1965), India (Phadke et al. 1966), North Korea (Tian Zai Zai Soun 1967), Cambodia (Ehara 1968), Japan (Ehara 1968), Vietnam (Stephen 1968, etc." -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:53:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <437D7722.2090802@ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin Gibbs wrote: > Bill Truesdell wrote: > Another interesting supposition (snip) > So maybe Varroa j can crowd out Varroa d. > > Really? I thought varroa J could not reproduce on the european honeybee. You are right. Thanks for correcting me. The article I read had them together and I had a leap of logic. Just curious, though. Have there been tests with V.J/EHB and cell sizes? V.J. does migrate to EHB colonies (in Asia) and enters the cells but does not lay eggs. That sounds familiar. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:54:33 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <004b01c5ebfe$da205620$0fbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> > Ruttner classified the Primorsky area bee as A.m.macedonica in 1988. > Tom Rinderer sent Ruttner samples of the queens he was importing and > Ruttner verified macedonica. The Primorsky bee is made up of races not > seen in the U.S. EXCEPT for a *very small* percent of Italian & > carniolan in *some* samples. >From Russian sources. First bees to far east was exported 1870 from Odessa with steamships. Following much larger sending came from different parts of Ukraine and central Russia. Between 1880 and 1890. Al bee races mixed with each other without some control. Important influence on the "mixture" had big volumes of gray caucasica during 1930 (Professor A.I. Ganajev 1965). Far east bees are a mixture of bees from Ukraine (acervorum?), mellifera, caucasica and ligustica. Already 1930 was observed resistance against AFB. For studying of Primorsk bees a National bee breeding station opened 1962 1971 some tests were made on bees from the north part of the country (Chabarovsk area) and results were as good as mellifera bees and nature conservancy reserve was established. Year 1969 made prof J. I. Makarov a morphological inventory check with following results. Min/max values; average; S% ; S%*M = s Tongue length, mm 6,10 - 6,80; 6,4; 2,0; 0,128 Length of the 3:th tergite, mm 2,00 - 2,33; 2,16; 4,0; 0,0864 Width of the 3:th tergite, mm 4,60 - 5,35; 4,91; 3,0; 0,1473 Length of the wax plate, mm 1,33 - 1,80; 1,58; 6,0; 0,0948 Width of the wax plate, mm 2,20 - 2,68; 2,41; 3,1; 0,07471 Length of the wing, mm 8,86 - 9,76; 9,2; 1,6; 0,1472 Width of the wing, mm 2,93 - 3,46; 3,15; 4,3; 0,13545 Tarsus index 1,57 - 1,94; 1,76; 5,0; 0,088 Cubital index 1,66 - 3,61; 2,28; 14,0; 0,3192 American scientists worked out a hypothesis that bees in far east was the first bees exposed to varroa and could developed a resistance to varroa. The russian point of view is that because the first bees was exported to the far east 130 years ago and varroa was discovered there 50 years ago, so from the evolutionary point of view - a very short time- a spontaneous selection could hardly arise. The local bee research institute of the Russian Scientific Academy tested bees in Primorsk and find that Primorsk bees are not better than other bee races and they are not able to survive varroa and other diseases. ------------------------ When talking about macedonica. One should observe what dr. A. Komissar (Department of Apiculture, National Agricultural University, Kyiv, Ukraine) said in St. Petersburg (Conference about social insects) this year: "F. Ruttner (1988) separated new race of honeybees Apis mellifera macedonica from the large body of central European bees A. m. carnica. These bees live in the Northern Greece, Bulgaria, Romania and (maybe) part of the former USSR. National bee scientists didn't recognize the Ruttner's hypothesis: the Bulgarians believe that they have aboriginal Bulgarian bees A. m. rodopica (Petrov, 1993), the Romanians think, that they have aboriginal A. m. carpatica (Foti et al, 1965), Ukrainians recognize aboriginal A. m. acervorum (new name is A.m. sossimai Engel, 1999). But from the scientific point of view the coincidence of the country borders and limits of the race distribution isn't possible. F. Ruttner (1988, page 250) found very strange fact of the acute coincidence of the border of distribution of Bulgarian and Turkey honey bees with the frontier between these countries and he noticed: "An explanation for this observation is very hard to give". We noticed also, that the Macedonian bees are distributed in the countries with Orthodox Church only. Our analysis of the facts of European history and distribution of the honeybee races gave the basement for conclusions about the mutual influence of social bees, main religions and life of human nations. These conclusions can be formulated as follows: The distribution of the different aboriginal honeybee races in Europe coincides with the distribution of main religions. The Italian (Apis mellifera ligustica) and Carniolian (A. m. carnica) bees are distributed in catholic countries; macedonian bees (A. m. macedonica, Ruttner, 1988) live in the countries with orthodox religion, and dark forest bees (A. m. mellifera) are incompatible with Catholicism. The hybrid honeybee races are in use in Protestant countries usually. It doesn't exist any honeybee race, which would be naturally distributed simultaneously in Christian and Moslem countries (exclusion is small Albania). The human population has life problems in the near-border regions, where main religion and honeybee race don't correspond to one another and the system "main religion-honeybee race" is moving to the necessary balance. Is it possible to formulate the following consequence, which will be important for beekeepers and bee scientists: the introduction of foreign bee races to the regions with inappropriate religion can't be successful. There are several examples, which support this statement. On the our opinion the possibility of the reverse influence the bee races on the human life can't be excluded - maybe the use of appropriate races can harmonize the life of humans. The above hypothesis is outside of scientific understanding of the world, but the religion is outside of it also. The strange link of coincidences of the events in the life of nations and social bees don't permit to leave this hypothesis outside of our attention." Olda Vancata -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:10:47 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: non-virulent mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isis Glass wrote: > If grease patties, essential oils, screens, etc, would have > worked as well as insecticides, they would have been widely adopted > instead > of chems. Not convinced that is true either - most beekeepers wanted a simple fix, like strips, that was simple to administer (in their view) and reduced workload. Varroa can be contolled perfectly well with essential oils as many of us have proved. > Look into the history: > > "Varroa mite [was] found in Indonesia (Oudemans 1904)... But which mite, V.j. or V.d.? As far as A.m. is concerned V.j. now seems to be of little interest. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:02:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Roger & All, >I have good experience with this race and will put together a short article and post it later on today on this list. Thanks Roger! I was hoping when I tossed out the name perhaps a beekeeper from around the world would respond! I am excited a beekeeper of your experience decided to respond! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:46:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glenn Hile Subject: Re: State of US honeybee colonies? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am fairly new to the beekeeping operation. I have 7 hives (west central Ohio). The first 6 are behaving normally but one seems to be behaving strangely. When I opened it during the warm spell a week ago it was full of bees, looked like a June afternoon. Though a little surprised I didn't think much of it. After a couple of cooler days (35-40 degrees), I thought the girls would have clustered and I could easily pop the hive top feeder off. When I removed the top, there were thousands of bees still at the top and they also came pouring out the bottom entrance, so I retreated again. Last evening after 2 days of continuous sub-30 degree windy weather, I again cracked the top expecting to not see any activity. I was again met by a large number of bees that were very active and crawling around trying to get the feed from the nearly frozen syrup. The outside air temperature was 20 degrees F but it didn't seem to phase them. Is this hive some kind of mutant? Glenn -- CoreComm Webmail. http://home.core.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:42:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell Comments: To: olda.vancata@QUICKNET.SE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello olda & All, >The local bee research institute of the Russian Scientific Academy (RSA) tested bees in Primorsk and find that Primorsk bees are not better than other bee races and they are not able to survive varroa and other diseases. The above research was discouraging to Dr. Shiminuki (" Shim") & Rinderer and pointed out in one conversation by myself. I saw a slight change of expression in a normally stone poker "Shim" face. I knew I had hit a nerve even if only slightly! Dr. Shiminuki's reply was that after talking with the Primorsky beekeepers, looking into hives and doing testing of their own they found the above RSA research to be inaccurate. So the import went on thanks to "Shim"( head of Beltsville bee lab)! The Primorsky import was unpopular with U.S. beekeepers and deemed a big waste of U.S. research dollars by many! "Shim" stayed the course like a good ship captan despite commercial beekeeper comments! I felt "Shim" had forgot more research information than I knew so I backed his decision ! I said on BEE-L and in my Russian articles in both the American Bee Journal & Bee Culture I was very skeptical at the start. At the end of the first season my opinion changed. The bees had performed as "Shim" had predicted! The industry in the U.S. needs to thank "Shim" for being a good CSI and following the evidence and not popular opinion! Thanks to Olda for taking the time to provide excellent information for us! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:54:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tim moran Subject: Re: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger, and Bob: As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as too much information about honeybee genetics. Since the Russian bee first entered my consciousness, I have been beyond fascination with the whole grand scene. I have been curious about the seeming ambiguity of its origins, especially with several "experts" apparently having convinced themselves it is mostly derived from Carniolan stock. I did read something last year about the Macedonian connection, but couldn't find enough additional material to do more than further pique my interest. Nailing down the DNA certainly advances things, eh? What I would appreciate tremendously is a collection of links to all things related to honeybee genetics, no matter how esoteric.Maybe you fellows could provide what you have with your upcoming posts under this subject, and of course I respectfully urge anyone else to add what they might have as well, though it goes without saying that would occur. The energy and thoughtfulness applied by the membership is what makes this list absolutely superb! By the way, a resource of this caliber does not evolve without dedicated effort, and no doubt some pain. My gratitude to those whose positive contributions and vision have set the tone, and strive to maintain it. Tim Moran, Somewhere in the wilds of Bucks County, PA *Ye shall beat their Game Boys into hive tools!* -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:12:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit timpa13@COMCAST.NET requested, "a collection of links to all things related to honeybee genetics, no matter how esoteric." One word: Google -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:00:32 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This subspecies of Apis mellifera occurs in northern Greece and = neighbouring areas, the exact distribution is not clear. The subspecies = cecropia occurs in southern Greece. MtDNA analysis is unable to = distinguish between the two populations although the two bees are quite = different in appearance and behaviour. However, because large numbers = of colonies are moved around Greece most populations are hybridised to = some degree. There used to be several distinct strains(local = ecotypes) of this bee but these have now disappeared. The strain in = general use now is know as the Chalkidiki strain as it originates from = the Chalkidiki Peninsular of northern Greece. The influence of ligustica = and Buckfast bees is also noticeable in some locations. It is probably = best to regard macedonica as a very close relative to carnica and the = two are very alike in appearance. The bees are not usually aggressive = and Greek beekeepers usually only wear a minimum of protective = equipment, if they use any at all. There is a natural resistance to = Acarapis woodi and many colonies are weak in their resistance to Nosema = apis.=20 Wintering is done with medium sized colonies and spring development is = rapid with a pronounced swarming instinct. Most beekeepers use an = unrestricted broodnest and harvest by removing any individual combs that = are capped. Removal of the crop by the super is rare. About 75% of = the honey produced in Greece is from the pine forests that harbour the = honeydew producing insect known in Greece as the ''Ergatis'' (Trans: = ''The worker'') (Latin:Marchalina hellenica). This honeyflow and the = beekeepers has been seen to be believed. Thousands and thousands of = hives are taken to the pine forests in late summer. These colonies are = usually compacted into a single hive body and are placed anywhere there = is a place to put them - often along the side of forest roads. = Thousands of colonies can be seen just by driving along a road. Where = one beekeepers hives start and end is not always clear. The queens will = usually stop laying during this flow due to a lack of pollen and the = hive a few weeks after being on the flow is usually completely = broodless. Frames are removed and extracted as soon as the beekeeper = thinks there is enough honey. There are two reasons for this: one is = that that the bees are stimulated into foraging by removal of the combs = and replacement with empty ones and also because if the beekeeper waits = too long he may find that someone else has done the job for him! The = lack of brood is dangerous however and if the colonies are left on the = pine flow too long they may suffer a severe reduction in population. = The beekeepers keep a close watch on the colonies and when they = determine that they are in decline they are moved out quickly to a = nectar/ pollen flow, mostly Erica, Ivy and Arbutus, where they soon pick = up and are able to get back to a population that can overwinter. It seems like it's not possible to keep A. m. macedonica profitably = in areas that have summer temperatures that exceed 30c. for long = periods. They just seem to wither in high temperatures and cannot = handle them. It's interesting to look at the situation that developed in Crete during = the late 1970's and 1980's and the role that macedonica played. As is = well-known the island of Crete had its own endemic subspecies of bee A. = m. adami. In the late 1970's Cretan beekeepers started importing = ligustica queens in an effort to have calmer bees and higher crops. The = ligustica ( the light yellow variety) crossed with the local bees and = things seemed be good for a while. Unfortunately Acarapis woodi had = hitched a ride along with the imported bees and Crete was soon facing a = disaster, with nearly the whole bee population of the island heavily = infested with Acarine. It was noticed, however, that the bees whose = hives were headed by macedonica queens (Chalkidiki strain) were not in = trouble, so queens were switched as soon as possible and the beekeeping = industry of Crete was saved from disaster. A. m. adami became extinct = in the process and it is not now possible to find any colonies that are = pure adami. We recently (September and October 2005) visited some of = the small islands around Crete in the hope of finding some bees on them = but didn't find any. I have some good photographs of A. m. macedonica and will be pleased to = send them on to anyone who requests them by Sunday evening. Please = send an email to: superbee@spidernet.com.cy Best regards Roger White Superbee bees Cyprus. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:15:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Roger, Have you got experience with the Cyprian bee( A.m.cypria Pollmann 1879)? A.m. cypria genetics were found in the Primorsky samples. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:36:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: feed failure Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >...the syrup is left over from spring feeding, can it go bad? If anything, it should have been refrigerated although storing syrup long term is not very practical. Always mix just the amount you can use short-term. You can do a test. Mix up some fresh syrup and offer it to one hive. If they take it down eagerly, you'll know for sure your spring stuff has fermented. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:45:48 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: non-virulent mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just curious, though. Have there been tests with V.J/EHB and cell sizes? > V.J. does migrate to EHB colonies (in Asia) and enters the cells but > does not lay eggs. That sounds familiar. I do no believe the cell size has anything to do with it. Talking with Dr. Denis Anderson it seems that the VJ enters the cell of the EHB and into the food at the bottom in the same way as VD and is released as the food is consumed but it does not lay eggs. It seems that the trigger (JH?) is not there to have the VJ commence laying. The VJ in Papua New Guinea in EHB colonies was not on small cell but on "normal" foundation most likely in the range of 5.4 to 5.7. Also VJ does not reproduce on the Apis cerana that is the natural host of VD and vice versa. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:11:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Succeeding with small cell In-Reply-To: <20051117233054.66188.qmail@web34310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All, Had a good response to the 'Feral Bee Project', so I decided to start up a list for those wishing to discuss strategies for trapping, assessing and integrating woodland feral honeybee colonies into your beekeeping operation, and also for networking for the acquisition of feral stock. I know we have too many honeybee lists already, but this the first 'feral bee list' ;>) If you wish to discuss feral honeybees please join: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ Related Link: The exciting potential of remote feral bee colonies for Varroa coexistence http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/varroaabstract.htm Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:10:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <200511181213.jAIC6do7014064@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isis Glass wrote: >Not true.... That is the prevailing current. > Time for my rant:>) Hummm! I can't recall a single mainstream bee article, that originated in the US, that promoted any of the above alternative methods before 1998. Rather, the bee press and researchers were actively seeking/promoting new and better chemical pesticides to deal with the mites. If a US beekeeper wanted information on even the softest treatments, he got it from outside the States. A few beekeepers have tried some of these alternative methods. But the vast majority have tried amitraz, tactic, and lots of other barnyard chemicals in their hives without even a second thought to IPM or alternatives, even though the effects of the pesticide treadmill had been reaped throughout the rest of agriculture. When Marla Spivak suggested that beekeepers not routinely treat for mites, it was revolutionary advice for the American beekeeper. I have kept statistics on my website, which deals with both soft chemicals(oxalic) and small cell. My single oxalic page gets 50 times the hits of all my small cell alternative pages put together. And now, the ABF is seeking the data and experience for these softer methods, which will provide a new and alternative chemical approach for American beekeepers. Hummm.... Others, around the world, have decades of experience with this stuff. Formic has been around longer than oxalic and it just received approval in the US a couple of years ago(gel pak). The formic pads, just this year. Doesn't seem like most US beekeepers have been on the cutting edge of this one. It's just too easy to run for the pesticides and use them routinely. And when someone suggests or observes something out of the mainstream on this list, most replys detail 101 reasons why it doesn't or can't work And the most adamant are usually those who have no personal experience in the matter! This response isn't atypical for the beekeeping community. Could this be a factor why most American beekeepers are so far behind the curve? Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:02:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <003701c5ec91$f634ddc0$e190453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor writes: most likely in the range of 5.4 to 5.7. reply: Is there any way to confirm the sizing? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:51:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: jpstein@VERIZON.NET Subject: Avoiding Africanized Queens I and my fellow beekeepers in the Western Pennsylvania area are concerned about buying Queens for next April splits. One beekeeper opened one of his hives a few days ago to treat it for AFB and the bees jumped out of the hole in the inner cover and from some openings between the brood chambers and were attacking him. It was a relatively warm day for November --high 60's F. Non of his other hives acted this way. The Queen was bought this Spring from a Texas breeder. He told me the hive was 'hot' all summer. Several other beekeepers that used queens from the same shipment had a few 'hot' hives this year. At the November PA State Beekeepers' meeting there was a lot of concern about queens coming from states that were considered lost to the Africanized Honey Bee. Has anybody else had this problem? We are not only concerned about our own safety but also about our ability to have bees in our yards that are in suburban areas. There is a movement in some of our local townships to ban beekeeping due to worry about Africanized bees. I doubt that Africanized bees can overwinter here but buying Queens from states such as Texas, Arizona, California and Florida could present a problem during the Summer. One constant remark I have heard is how can you expect to buy Queens from a breeder in areas 'lost' to the Africanized Honey Bee when the breeder uses open mating and is surrounded by Africanized Honey Bees. Jim -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jpstein@verizon.net ----------------------------------------------------------- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 19:04:43 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: non-virulent mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Trevor writes: > most likely in the range of 5.4 to 5.7. > > reply: > Is there any way to confirm the sizing? The beekeeping equipment including foundation came out of New Zealand and they used 5.4 to 5.7 depending on supplier. Maybe some now using 4.9 but this was back in the early 1990's when Denis Anderson first found that VJ was not reproducing on EHB. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 19:59:31 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: non-virulent mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> "Varroa mite [was] found in Indonesia (Oudemans 1904)... > > But which mite, V.j. or V.d.? As far as A.m. is concerned V.j. now seems > to > be of little interest. My understanding is that the varroa that Oudemans described was V. jacobsoni. Until recently only VJ was in Java where I think the sample came from. I have heard that Java now has VD as bees have been moved between islands and Apis cerana with VD was moved in from further north. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 09:16:14 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: A. m. cypria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, Yes of course I have experience with A. m. cypria, as I live in Cyprus. = Do you want a post on it? Best regards Roger Superbee bees Cyprus. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:10:05 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: A. m. macedonica Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>The lack of brood is dangerous however and if the colonies are left on the pine flow too long they may suffer a severe reduction in population. Pollen or patty feeding is not practiced to keep brood rearing going and to prolong the honeydew harvest? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 09:19:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: non-virulent mites >Hummm! I can't recall a single mainstream bee article, that originated >in the US, that promoted any of the above alternative methods >before 1998. How about: Smoking out bee mites Agricultural Research, August, 1997 by Sean Adamas Beekeepers have a long-established practice of using smoke to calm their bees before opening the hive. Now U.S. Department of Agriculture scientists have found another potential benefit from smoke: Some plants, when burned, give off natural chemicals that control honey bee mites. Frank A. Eischen, an entomologist with USDA's Agricultural Research Service in Weslaco, Texas, has found that smoke from certain plants either kills varroa mites or causes them to fall off the bees. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 09:36:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Robert J. Bassett" Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Friends, I have been an advocate of selecting-for-resistance for many years. I don't treat my bees with anything now. I quit buying queens 6 years ago and just let the survivor hives work out the bugs, so-to-speak. This is easy for me to do, since I am not keeping bees for my livelihood. I have great sympathy for those in the commercial sector and I would probably follow the chemical route, if I were similarly invested. I believe feral and survivor hives are the genetic bank for present and future beekeeping. I have always had a keen interest in the study of genetics and I have had experience with breeding chickens for "plague" resistance. I have kept bees on-and-off for 43 years. Genetic principals follow certain patterns (or laws) in all living organisms, whether they are plant or animal. This is why we are able to predict or qualify accurate percentages of results when breeding for any given genetic trait. Bees are going to follow the same rules. It only stands to reason; if certain hives survive a pest invasion, you will breed your future generations from the survivors, assuming you breed your own queens. This really is a basic form of selection for a superior trait. My chicken breeding technique involved selection for disease resistance. I bred show chickens in order to study principles of genetics. I initially received brood stock from many different sources. All of the progeny was kept in a large enclosure. The first year, I lost over half of the progeny and breeders to a variety of diseases. Each year, there was some kind of pestilence, sweeping through the flock. I would not treat sick birds and I bred from the survivors. My friends, in the hobby, were medicating their show birds regularly and sustaining heart breaking losses every season. Every time they took their birds to a show, they exposed them to diseases from all over the States. My birds would bring back the disease organisms and helped the flock to become resistant. I didn't have to treat for diseases, because my stock had to survive or die. Eventually the flock became virtually disease free and resistant. I believe breeding from survivor hives, will yield similar results. The lesson for me is clear. Survivability is the most important trait we can have in our bees. Chemical pest control is a very short term bridge to the inevitable. Eventually we will breed out of survivors anyway. Secondly, we can select for production. The superior brood stock might just be in the yards of the folks who don't treat for pests, at this very moment. Robert J. Bassett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 06:51:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens In-Reply-To: <0IQ6007RTS1B9NH1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- jpstein@VERIZON.NET wrote: > I and my fellow beekeepers in the Western Pennsylvania area are concerned > about buying Queens for next April splits. One beekeeper opened one of his > hives a few days ago to treat it for AFB and the bees jumped out of the > hole in the inner cover and from some openings between the brood chambers > and were attacking him. To me this is also a real concern. I am located in lower Alabama and currently we are not having to worry about this too much. But, it is coming and will be here probably within ten or so years. The only fix that I can see at this time is to go entirely to artificial insemination or moving the queen mating yards to the northern part of the U.S. , doing your mating during the summer up there and doing most of your requeening in the late summer to late fall. I would be interested in learning the why's and wherefore's of artificial insemination if anyone knows where one can garner that info. Mike Located in lower Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:14:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I would be interested in learning the why's and > wherefore's of artificial insemination if anyone knows > where one can garner that info. Those who practice prefer the term "Instrumental Insemination", claiming = there's nothing artificial about it. Please, this is not meant to start = a debate! Anyway, a good start is Sue Cobey's program at OSU. http://www174.pair.com/birdland/Breeding/IIadvan.html =20 Dave Cushman runs an II List http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ii_list.html =20 And as always, Google will give you tons of pointers. =20 Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 07:08:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <200511191419.jAJDlnsg003344@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Isis Glass wrote: > > Frank A. Eischen, an entomologist with USDA's Agricultural Research Service > in Weslaco, Texas, has found that smoke from certain plants either kills > varroa mites or causes them to fall off the bees. Can you elucidate? Amy documentation? Would love to see his comments/observations. Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:32:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: non-virulent mites >>Hummm! I can't recall a single mainstream bee article, that originated >>in the US, that promoted any of the above alternative methods >>before 1998. There is a long history in the beekeeping population of aversion to drugs, just as there is a long history of their advocation. When Sulfa Drugs were found to inhibit AFB, many promoted their use as a "cure" but many states still prohibit the treatment of AFB, and mandate the destruction of the hives as *untreatable*. After Sulfa was found in honey, its use was outlawed. Many beekeepers kept using it even after TM was made available. In my 1949 edition of the Hive & the Honey Bee, it describes *two* treatments for trachael mite. One is chemical, using a combination of nitrobenzene and gasoline!! The other is "mechanical". The method was desribed in the "mainstream" journal Bee World. See: "The mechanical eradication of acarine disease", Bee World 28(5). Also, in the same Hive & Honey Bee, now more than 50 years old, they describe the breeding of resistant bees. They refer to an article in the "mainstream" American Bee Journal titled "Disease resistance & American foulbrood; results of 2nd season of co-operative experiment". The article is dated 1937. They said: "Nearly half of the presumably resistant colonies tested have rid themselves of all symtpoms of AFB". "Because of the widespread interest aroused by these encouraging experiments ... Congress authorized an appropriation to initiate a more extensive investigation of the possibility of developing strains of bees resistant to AFB." -- the Hive & the Honey Bee So, alternatives to chemicals have been sought for many decades and interest in these alternatives has always been strong. But the bottom line is: people have to use what works, and cannot be expected to squander time and money on things that *might work* or *sort of work*. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:55:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi to Jim and All, I am answering this post as a general statement and I truly do not mean to criticize any one person. Jim has brought up some very good concerns that I am sure are current to beekeeping all across America. I thank him for his intuitiveness and concerns. On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:51:13 jpstein@VERIZON.NET wrote: "I and my...are concerned about buying Queens for next April splits." Queens this spring, 2006, are in short supply; I strongly suggest that you make your bookings ASAP. Some states have inspection and permit requirements to import packages and queens; it’s always best to purchase stock from permitted sources. I suggest that you purchase some breeder queens from safe sources and start your own operations; collectively with some other folks you can purchase the best breeders available and have queens not only for your own use, but for sale as well. “He told me the hive was 'hot' all summer. Several other beekeepers …same shipment had … 'hot' hives this year.” Same shipment, hot bees; don’t assume anything, confirm your suspicions one way or the other, send a 40 to 60 bee sample in ethanol from each “hot” hive to your State Apiarist and another sample to Mona Chambers, Carl Hayden Bee Research Center, 2000 E. Allen Road, Tucson, AZ 85719. RE: http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/morphometrics.html, the link is current. Further details are given in the May 2005 issue of the American Bee Journal, including information on the spread of AHB to December 2004. “At the November PA State Beekeepers' meeting there was a lot of concern about queens coming from states…considered lost to the Africanized Honey Bee.” IMHO there should be more than just concern, the dissemination of AHB across North America (USA and Canada) can be slowed by prudent beekeeping practices and purchase of reliable queen stocks from breeders in areas outside boundary limits of quarantine and/or within your State Apiarist’s permitted sources. To purposely circumvent regulations and prudent practices is simply asking for trouble. Once the AHB cat is out of the bag that has been imported and distributed over a broad area by many beekeepers it cannot be put back in. If you have AHB in a yard I strongly suspect that all your hives will either require requeening or they will be destroyed. Those folks who do not report their suspicions are not only fooling themselves but are also screwing up beekeeping for EVERYONE. “We are not only concerned about our own safety but also about our ability to have bees….in suburban areas. There is a movement in some of our local townships to ban beekeeping…” Now is the time to demonstrate that you and other members of your organization are responsible beekeepers. There is much in the archives about cities and townships wanting to ban beekeeping due to the probability of AHB migrating into an area and successful methods of keeping beekeeping active and legal in a town or city. The direct importation of queens and or packages from areas containing or are even suspected of containing AHB should never be considered. There is no argument in my mind than can be made for such actions unless a controlled II breeding program is ongoing. Even in such cases Canada will not allow importation, see American Bee Journal, December issue. “I doubt that Africanized bees can overwinter here….” IMO feral AHB honey bees may have problems surviving overwinter; however, when colonies are managed, treated, fed syrup, fed pollen substitutes, and wrapped for winter they would have a very good chance of overwintering in either Allen Dick’s or Keith Malone’s back yard; think about the microenvironment that you are providing your honeybees. “One constant remark I have heard is how can you expect to buy Queens from a breeder in areas 'lost' to the Africanized Honey Bee when the breeder uses open mating and is surrounded by Africanized Honey Bees.” I believe that such a remark is quite valid and should be taken as “good advice”. Sincerely, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 07:57:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <001201c5ece8$63e5cea0$5884453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor writes: this was back in the early 1990's when Denis Anderson first found that VJ was not reproducing on EHB. Reply: Since old mites don't reproduce, and point of infestation is used for ID I have been told, how specifically are the two different in appearance? For example like in people -- is it color, different hair or something else? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:01:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens In-Reply-To: <20051119145155.72257.qmail@web53412.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember reading about some Africanized swarms being found around Mobile, Al this year. You might worry a little sooner. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 Mike Stoops wrote: > > >To me this is also a real concern. I am located in >lower Alabama and currently we are not having to worry >about this too much. > > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:11:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <200511191419.jAJDlnsg003344@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Beekeepers have a long-established practice of using > smoke to calm their > bees before opening the hive. Now U.S. Department of > Agriculture scientists > have found another potential benefit from smoke: > Some plants, when burned, > give off natural chemicals that control honey bee > mites. Theoretically now, besides making the identification and selection of varroa resistant stock more difficult for the beekeeper as treatments are known to do. The practice of smoking for varroa control ‘may’ in my opinion, result in the inadvertent selection of aggressive bees over mild bees which would get the lesser dose of treatment and possibly perish at a greater rate. But on the other side of the coin, less dosage in the calmer colonies would necessitate that the responsibility of varroa suppression rely more heavily on the traits of the bee, and subsequently an easier process of selecting resistant stock from among the gentile colonies. Just a thought. Catch 22? Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:30:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens In-Reply-To: <0IQ6007RTS1B9NH1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- jpstein@VERIZON.NET wrote: > I and my fellow beekeepers in the Western > Pennsylvania area are concerned > about buying Queens for next April splits. (concerned about AHB) My advice, Spit colonies to insure they make their own ‘locally adapted queens‘. Any time you purchase bees that are not from locally adapted stock. You risk the 'potential' of introducing genetics that are not suited for your particular area, or particular liking. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:52:52 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Waldemar, I didn't see any patties being fed - I think that it all happens so = quickly and that the beekeepers are in a such a hurry to get the full = frames extracted they prefer it like that - after the pine flow they = give them a varroa treatment and the hives are almost mite free! So it = has a positive side to it as well -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:02:01 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: non-virulent mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...smoke from certain plants either kills varroa mites or causes them to fall off the bees. It would be nice to know what plants were tested. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 09:17:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jim Young Subject: Plant Smoke For Varroa (Was: non-virulent mites) In-Reply-To: <200511191419.jAJDlnsg003344@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis Glass wrote: "Frank A. Eischen, an entomologist with USDA's Agricultural Research Service in Weslaco, Texas, has found that smoke from certain plants either kills varroa mites or causes them to fall off the bees." Are you at liberty to post the research results of Frank A. Eischen regarding certain plant smoke which either kills varroa mites or causes them to fall off the bees? Regards. Jim Young --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:55:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <200511191419.jAJDlnsg003344@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Isis, >Smoking out bee mites.... I'd forgotten about that one. I had an aunt with a grapefruit tree in her backyard. She shipped me a large box of grapefruit leaves which I experimented with. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:20:49 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck, depending on the sort of test, the results could be negative for AHB and the bees still be AHB. The tests done here in Ca. by the State are mitochondrial, so you could get a queen breeder in, say, Texas who has raised a pure Italian and through open mating could have mated with several AHB drones making the hive hot, and her daughters would still test out as EHB. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:30:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lionel Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These swarms have been captured for a few years near mobile because of the ships entering Mobile bay at the State docks. The Dept of Agriculture has swarm traps in the area all time. I have heard about 150 traps. Lionel Evans Athens, AL. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:22:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 Tim Vaughan wrote: ”Chuck, depending on the sort of test, the results could be negative for AHB and the bees still be AHB. The tests done here in Ca. by the State are mitochondrial, so you could get a queen breeder in, say, Texas ... and her daughters would still test out as EHB.” Tim, your statement is quite valid. PCR-DNA testing is valid only with maternal parentage. Too often Canada, Europe and even “Down Under” is left out of the writer’s scope of thought whether it may be in a post on BEE-L or in an article in a beekeeping magazine with an international readership. Often such omissions occur due to the myriad amount of variances in governmental rules and regulations such as those areas that are related to miticides and antibiotics as well as procedures and protocol of identification methods and resources. FWIW, I would hope that the Canadian government could adapt the FABIS System of Identification for field screening and then use further methods of testing and identification including morphological methods such as is currently being done at the Carl Hayden Bee Research Center. I understand that new methods of DNA testing are slowly coming down the pike that will allow conclusive testing of AHB based upon parentage of both male and female. Until then we need to do the responsible thing, to make the powers that be aware of what’s gong on in our own backyards. Sincerely, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:58:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Plant Smoke For Varroa Hello I am surprised at the number of inquiries about this. This is very old news. Ten years ago people were putting just about anything in their smoker and smoking it ;-) But seriously folks, there's tons of stuff on the net referring to this particular dead end street. GO to the following web site, which is a snapshot of 1996: http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/ Collection of References (April, 1997) * Varroa Mite and Tracheal Mite References (Several Thousand) I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:42:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Plant Smoke For Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I didn't crawl through all the references in the site Isis gave, but I = did not find the answers to the questions readers have asked, = specifically what are the smoker fuels purpoeted to knock down Varroa. =20 My recollectrion is that there was a lot of hope about 5 years ago that = smoker fuels may be a good weapon against V.d. The big three I remember = being touted wete cedar chips, grapefruit leaves and bobs (seed heads) = of staghorn sumac (Rhus typhina). My recollection is also that at best = these fuels worked well in the lab, but the hopes and promises were = dashed in the field. At the time however, there were great hopes. = Grapefruit trees were nearly denuded in Florida, at least one major = supplier offered sumac bobs in their catalog, and ebay entrepeneurs made = a killing! =20 A quick Google search on "staghorn varroa" offers a bit of the history, = as does a search of the BEE-L archives. =20 Aaron Morris - thinking if it sounds too good to be true.... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:35:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens In-Reply-To: <437F4C69.4040604@cox-internet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Charles Harper wrote: > I remember reading about some Africanized swarms > being found around > Mobile, Al this year. You might > worry a little sooner. > According to the state apiarists those swarms were thought to be brought in by ship. Continued trapping in the area did not turn up any subsequent Africanized swarms. This does not mean that the AFB is not now present in the area, just that the probabilities are low. There is constant monitoring going on. One of my buddies had a really hot hive and he sent samples in to be tested for AFB. As far as I know at this time the results have not come back as to the variety of bee the colony was. Will let the list know when I learn the results. By the way, hello there Charlie. How are you going to control your queen breeding to preclude AFB influence? Mike Located 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:01:20 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Fw: [BEE-L] non-virulent mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For some reason when I pressed the reply button the reply went directly to Dick Allen and not the list. Thought I should send this now as Dick has replied via the list. > Also VJ does not reproduce on the Apis cerana that is the natural host > of VD > and vice versa. > > Hi Trevor: > Is that correct? Should you have interchanged the destructor with the > jacobsoni? No. Denis Anderson found that there are different types, by DNA, of Apis cerana. There is one that is the natural host of VD and VJ will not reproduce on that cerana. And vice versa, i.e. the Apis cerana that is the natural host of VJ does not have VD reproducing on it. There are a few clues in the following website:- www.ento.csiro.au/research/pestmgmt/bees/bees_varroa_main.html#varroa_genetics.html Watch for any line wrap when this comes out on Bee-L. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 23:02:05 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We may not have africanised bees here (although some seem like it at times) but we have had some unusual bad temper recently. I was putting on mouseguards a couple of weeks ago on a cold day with no bees flying. Should have been no problem, but I got the same reaction from every hive in the apiary - they all came pouring out, hell-bent on attack; smoke seemed to have little effect. The apiary is usually quite docile, so I was really surprised. Since then, other beekeepers have told me that they have had similar experiences - one taking a number of stings through trousers covered with a boilersuit. Is it the weather? I am at a loss to think of anything else that could be upsetting them - they have had a very good autumn and there are not many wasps having a go at the hives this year. Anyone else in the UK had similar experiences? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:37:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Plant Smoke For Varroa In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C0FB7@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Guys, I played with both green and dried grapefruit leaves. I tracked the results by using mite trays beneath screened bottom boards. Extensively smoked hives would drop lots of varroa. But I found that powder sugar dusting was more consistent and much easier on the lungs. I found grapefruit leave smoke very obnoxious. It was as bad or worse than tobacco smoke on this beekeeper. And I would have abandoned it for that reason, even if it worked perfectly. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:37:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens In-Reply-To: <20051119203534.1494.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We check every year for colonies in our breeding area and find no bees on our bate stations but after the Reta storm surge we will not have to as a 10' to 12' wall of water will eradicate just about all colonies in the area. Any colonies that swarm from our colonies do not survive as the resources are slim to none even managed colonies that are fed. have a very hard time. We bring back all the drone colonies every year as we need to change the lines for mating purposes. We have no AHB in our area yet and I hope Reta took care of the colonies in Lake Charles area. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 Mike Stoops wrote: > > By the way, hello there Charlie. >How are you going to control your queen breeding to >preclude AFB influence? > > > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:19:24 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: non-virulent mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Since old mites don't reproduce, and point of infestation > is used for ID I have been told, how specifically are the > two different in appearance? For example like in people -- > is it color, different hair or something else? What I mean by not reproducing is that the VJ enters the cells of brood of the EHB and does all the "normal" varroa things but does not lay eggs. The trigger is not there to induce the female to lay. These are not old mites but young females. There is a difference in appearance. I would refer you to the original paper by Dr. Denis Anderson for more details. Anderson, D.L. & Trueman, J.W.H. (2000) Varroa jacobsoni (Acari:Varroidae) is more than one species. Experimental and Applied Acarology, 24, 165-189. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 19:52:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens In-Reply-To: <0IQ6007RTS1B9NH1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5F3C6FEE > At the November PA State Beekeepers' meeting...I and my fellow > beekeepers in the Western Pennsylvania area are concerned about buying > Queens for next April splits. Did you attend Kirk's talk? Did he talk about overwintering nucs? I know it won't help this coming spring, but next summer you have a chance to start raising your own bees and queens. Either you as an individual beekeeper, or you and your fellow beekeepers in western PA, should start. Make your apiary more self sufficient. I know you will be pleased with the results. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 21:49:50 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "scot.mcpherson" Organization: Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Iowa Honey Producers Association Annual Meeting In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well I went to the annual meeting of the Iowa Honey Producers Association on Friday. I met quite a few fine beekeepers and also had the opportunity to meet Allen Dick. He is as powerful, polite and mild mannered in person as is his presence here and on other lists. It was a great pleasure to meet him. He mentioned to me that he was going to be speaking about the Lusby operation at the evening banquet, but unfortunately I was not able to stay so late since I had a 3 hour drive home. I hope that perhaps allen can forward me a transcript or recording of what he talked about. We did have an informal hour to chit chat though and also talk with my new neighbors here in iowa. To Allen Dick and Dick Allen. Now that I have met Allen Dick, I will never ever again get you two confused. Having a real meeting with Allen provides all the association I need to remember who is who. :) Some generalities I learned at the meeting were this, and they apply to things we have discussed here on the list: Even the usda beelabs aren't necessarily full of facts but as full of opinions as we are here. USDA beelab experiments seem to be often not as large scale as people here would like to think. They consist often as few as 6-12 hives for an experiment. I am certain though this isn't always the case and that some important or well funded experiments may consist of several hundred hives. Africanized Honey Bees are great bees with one and only one drawback. They are mean as hell. Africanized honey bees also seem to be tempered by climate. The lower and flatter and more (sub)tropical the area, the meaner the bees. AHB in Highland areas (such as in the andes mountains), although genetically are significantly africanized, they exhibit very EHB like qualities and temperment and even become visibly indistinguishable to EHB. The flat region of florida is a prime breeding ground for african genes, and the AHB will likely become the dominant bee in the region despite any efforts to prevent it. African bees are too prolific to prevent their spread within suitable climates. It should also be noted that the usda beelabs maintain some ahb colonies and they are not treated for varroa at all, and yet remain their strongest and most productive colonies with 2 or 3 times the production levels of europeans. The bee labs keep african hives for a ready supply of varroa mites since the colonies aren't treated and since the colonies remain strong despite the varroa, they are able to farm clean healthy varroa from these colonies for whatever they need them for. Varroa Screens apparently aid the Small Hive Beetle and make it harder for the bees to defend the hive from them, this could be important to many people in SHB areas. Scot Mc Pherson McPherson Family Honey Farms -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 23:00:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Plant Smoke For Varroa In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C0FB7@UAEXCH.univ.alban y.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:42 PM 11/19/05 -0500, you wrote: >I didn't crawl through all the references in the site Isis gave, but I did not find the answers to the questions readers have asked, specifically what are the smoker fuels purpoeted to knock down Varroa. Tobacco has been tried both as a varroa control and as a method of sampling in the Netherlands: [CITATION] De, & Eijnde, JVD, 1984. Detection of Varroa mite in the Netherlands using tobacco smoke A Ruijter - Bee World What little I've found on the web hasn't been helpful. Dosage was found to be difficult. It is after all a poison. This link addresses various different plant smokes on the honeybee tracheal mite, including orange peel, creosote bush, tobacco, coffee beans, etc: http://www.edpsciences.org/10.1051/apido:2004026 If you haven't been to http://scholar.google.com/ you should check it out. George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 22:22:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A. m. cypria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Roger & All, >Do you want a post on it? I would love a post on the mysterious cyprian bee! There is another bee which I am more interested in which I believe you have got knowledge of but lets take one race at a time. Every time I get a look at an old beekeeping book there are several items I turn to first. One is what the author had to say about the races of the period. The cyprian bee is often compared with african bees as far as aggressiveness by the old writers. I can provide books & authors. Some say the Italian bee came from the cyprian bee. Some say the cyprian bee was a tremendous honey producer. What is your opinion on the above statements by the old masters Roger? Does your modern day cyprian bee still have the characteristic yellow shield crescent and orange underside? Are all the rings bordered with black? The fuzz bands brown? The old masters said in pure form the cyprian bee was the most beautiful bee of the period. Thanks for taking the time to answer questions I have had for a very long time! Your observations will be an asset to the archives! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 22:51:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A. m. Sicula MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Roger & All, According to the bee lab in the summer of 2002 Ruttner had found a large percentage of the import primorsky bee to carry genetics of the Sicilian bee A.m. sicula (Montagano 1911). Ruttner took a close look at A.m. sicula (Sicilian bee) again in 1988 and made some interesting observations. One observation he made he had never seen in any race he had studied! Ruttners description of the Sicilian queen bee fits the description of most Primorsky Russian/Russian queens I have had the closest. Once the trained eye looks at the Primorsky Russian queen and the carniolan queen the two are easy to tell apart (at least for me). Are beekeepers on the list which keep or have kept the Sicilian bee ? If so I would love to hear their observations. Their descriptions of the queen bee. Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:18:20 -0000 Reply-To: Phil Moore Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote - they all came pouring out, hell-bent on attack; > smoke seemed to have little effect. The apiary is usually quite docile, > so > Anyone else in the UK had similar experiences? > Very similar to you, I have some pure Carnica as well as crosses and apiaries with local poss Amm type, most have had the same reaction late in the season especially when putting in entrance blocks (late, in anticipation of wasp attacks.. none came). All the colonies were of reasonable temper during the summer. The bees were flying on Ivy but putting little weight on, some seemed to be loosing weight the more they were flying. Regards Phil Moore -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 04:25:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/11/05 00:44:31 GMT Standard Time, beekeepers@STRATFORD-UPON-AVON.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: <> No, but then I use built-in mouseguards which are a permanent feature of the hives. There hasn't been a sign of this sort of thing though. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:34:00 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: A. m. cypria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will do a post about A.m. cypria later in the week. It would probably = be helpful as well if you look up the following link: http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/bibliof.html It's a website about Brother Adam and is run by Jean-Marie van Dyck. At = the end of the English section is the book ''Breeding the Honeybee'' and = there is some good information about the various races and their = characteristics. My own comments can be taken as supplementary to = these. Also on the website are complete pedigrees for the different = Buckfast bee lines which are interesting for anyone interested in bee = breeding. Best regards Roger White Superbee bees Cyprus. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 06:36:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ed Costanza Subject: Re: Plant Smoke For Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Over a week ago at our annual NM beekeepers conference the subject about using smoke to control or knock down varroa came up. One of our beekeepers who has been using different methods to control varroa said that the most effective method he has come up with is using the bark of the juniper tree in his smoker. He said 20 puffs in his hives every few days (for 21 days) effectively knocks down the varroa population. This beekeeper has experimented in the past with mineral oils and other fuels like cresote bush and is currently satisfied with the effects of juniper bark. Ed -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 06:20:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Iowa Honey Producers Association Annual Meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Scot & All, I wish Allen would have let us know he was going to be in the Midwest as I would have made arrangements to attend! I ALWAYS post on Bee-l when I am attending if visiting or a speaker. Shame on you Allen! Allen and I have met many times before but I always enjoy our discussions! I always learn from his direct beekeeping experience and willing to share information nature! >Even the USDA beelabs aren't necessarily full of facts but as full of opinions as we are here. A simple answer can usually be found and the answer in most cases follows the published information on the subject.! "Off the record" & "I am not going to publish what you say" will most times get the lab persons opinion if you have got a reputation of not betraying a confidence! I have got such a reputation. If you look back over the years I have been on BEE-L you will see times when others have pushed for the source of my bee lab information. I will take the heat and not betray the confidence. You are just starting on your beekeeping journey Scot! The above could be a valuable piece of information. I have watched you grow on the Florida beekeepers list ( I am a lurker)! Build trust with these people and they will talk freely! What they say in public at a meeting can be repeated but you need to make sure you understood what they were saying and not taken out of context. >USDA beelab experiments seem to be often not as large scale as people here would like to think. They consist often as few as 6-12 hives for an experiment. A few hives sometimes are all that's needed. The problem today with small number of hive studies is all the factors which can effect the outcome and are hard to control. Those factors are present in large numbers of hives but easier to see if they effected the results. The best point about small numbers involved is the whole study can be tossed if factors such as chalkbrood, disease, queen problems,weather or other factors taint your results. A well run small study will get attention. A shoddy run study will not get attention with the research community. It is far better to keep results of a tainted study to yourself rather than try to convince researchers of what you "think" you have proven! I learned the hard way on this point and have learned from my mistake! Agenda's can many times taint a study in beekeeping. One reason why I like private beekeeping research from ordinary beekeepers. >Africanized Honey Bees are great bees with one and only one drawback. This is an attempt in my opinion to level the playing field! Now this statement really paints the AHB with a simple and broad brush! Was last seen by me at the ABF convention in Austin , Texas. An attempt at the "dumbing down" of the U.S. beekeeper. The above statement is problematic because by the time the average beekeeper realizes the statement is *crap* his yards are full of nasty bees which are stinging him and his neighbors. Running on the frames , swarming constantly etc. Keeping a close watch on your hives and quickly eliminating hives with AHB genetics is the answer! What Paul Jackson (Texas state bee inspector) and the Texas beekeepers were doing! The AHB are great bees opinion is around in a small circle.Very small! The AHB problem is not going to go away but get bigger. Doing nothing is not the answer! Many undesirable traits come with feral AHb such as running on the frames, constant swarming and bees with capensis -like traits to name only a few! Control the queens in your hives and AHb *in your hives* is not a problem. Completely stopping the feral AHb is not going to happen! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:12:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A. m. cypria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Roger & All, http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/bibliof.html Certainly a valuable resource and one I had not visited in awhile. I see Brother Adam prized the a.m. cypria for the Buckfast and recommended its use in crosses. The bee lab made no reference to A.m cypria being found in the Primorsky bee . I found out that the genetics had turned up in private testing of Russian import samples. I found no reference to sicula or the macedonica at the location you suggested Roger but will look further later. Perhaps because very little attention was given to those races until after Ruttner's 1988 published research. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 18:43:18 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roger White Subject: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, I see that Brother Adam just mentioned A. m. cecropia and not macedonica = - it was probably described later but the general comments hold good for = both subspecies, they are different however.=20 It doesn't mention sicula either. What special character did Ruttner = find in the subspecies? Best regards Roger. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:15:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Feral bee colonies, etc. Comments: cc: jkefussbees@wanadoo.fr, Paul Cronshaw , John Edwards In-Reply-To: <437924EA.8080009@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am sorry to be so late on replying to several comments about feral colonies and varroa mites, but they came in too thick and fast at the time. Also, I had recently returned from the California Beekeepers Convention and had not yet caught up with all the postings. Joe Waggle asked (15 November): Is the below reference found in the abstract available for reading? ABSTRACT: Wenner, A.M. and R.W. Thorp. 2002. Collapse and resurgence of feral colonies after Varroa arrival. "Some individuals have now begun to exploit the potential that feral colonies provide. (By feral, I include managed colonies in remote areas that have had no treatment against varroa mites.)" *********** That reference is not online, but I can photocopy and mail a reprint to anyone interested who provides a mailing address. *********** Isis Glass asked (15 November): But what surprises me in all these discussions is the use of terms like "isolated" and "remote" without any effort or concern about defining them. Given that queens can fly up to ten miles to mate, how can one be certain that *any* bees are "remote" -- particularly if the term isn't even defined? Anyone who goes to a standard atlas road map of Southern California can see that a vast area (perhaps 30 miles X 100 miles) of national forest and wilderness area exists northeast of Santa Barbara. Due to high fire danger, beekeepers are not allowed in that back country. The bee colonies back there are certainly isolated from managed colonies. My beekeeper friend, Paul Cronshaw, regularly takes Boy Scout trips into that region and has reported an abundance of honey bees that have obviously survived the varroa mite infestation. Surely many such areas exist throughout the U.S. *********** Waldemar asked (15 November): Is there a plan for systematic evaluation of feral bees for mite resistance? If yes, can you share the locations of the ferals being considered for evaluation? This should be a very exciting undertaking! Waldemar is correct. In fact, that is what the USDA and/or beekeeping groups should have done when it first became that varroa would become a major threat to the industry. If I were a dictator (e.g., head of the USDA), I would have established maybe two dozen apiaries in different parts of the U.S.A., preferably adjacent to vast areas that had no beekeeping operations — and then let the most susceptible colonies perish. That is, in fact, what John Kefuss has suggested all along — the Bond Technique, followed by the BAT technique (Bond Accelerated Techique). The latter involves deliberately providing a large varroa mite load on colonies that seem to be resistant to the mites — and then breed from those survivors. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, no plan exists for exploiting feral colonies that have survived varroa infestation. *********** Ron van Mierlo from Sweden (15 November) corrected me: I read this input and have to respond since it is not true about the claim that Scandinavian beekeepers are not allowed to use any chemicals in their colonies. I can't speak for the other countries, but it is for instance allowed to use Apistan if the beekeeper in question has obtained a licence, (he will have to take a certain course in order to get the licence and some years experience in beekeeping ara presumed too). Also, the use of oxalic acid is completely free. So if you call oxalic acid and Apistan chemicals then yes, they do use chemicals in Sweden (not me though, none of them!) I am sorry for that error. Hans-Otto Johnsen had written: "In Norway where I live you are not allowed to use what is called pesticides against pests." My bias (of Scandinavian descent, both Norwegian and Swedish) colored my memory; perhaps I inadvertently wished all Scandinavians to be so astute. *********** On Nov 14, 2005, at 3:59 PM, John Edwards earlier wrote (in part): > I fail to understand why this same view (that all ferals are strays) > keeps coming up, at least since I have been online (about 1990). John's statement matches my own bias, as evident in my above statement: "(By feral, I include managed colonies in remote areas that have had no treatment against varroa mites.)" Again, some Sandinavians have apparently had some success with "Elgon" bees, a cross between the east African mountain bee (Apis mellifera monticola) and the Buckfast bee. I see no distinction between "managed" colonies that have had no chemical treatment (with open mating) and feral colonies in that same area. I hope the above lengthy discourse properly address the points raised. Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:22:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Engelhardt Subject: Re: Plant Smoke For Varroa In-Reply-To: <254.1aa5344.30b1b9b3@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed Costanza wrote: > Over a week ago at our annual NM beekeepers conference the subject about > using smoke to control or knock down varroa came up. One of our beekeepers who > has been using different methods to control varroa said that the most > effective method he has come up with is using the bark of the juniper tree in his > smoker. He said 20 puffs in his hives every few days (for 21 days) Not to start a battle of wills, but I what I had in my notes from that meeting was 40 puffs, not 20. However, I suppose it can differ a great deal depending on the size of the smoker used. I think the idea is to have enough so the hive is obviously filled, yet not to the point that suffocates the bees. Also, at the earlier spring seminar here in NM, it was mentioned that all parts of the juniper are equally as effective. Though take what I have to say with a grain of salt, as I've never used the above mentioned method. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 21:41:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Roger & All, It doesn't mention sicula either. What special character did Ruttner find in the subspecies? Even on google information about A.m.sicula is hard to find. I did find Brenda Ball and other researchers were trying to import 10 sicula queens into the U.K.. Was part of cooperative research on varroa tolerance with five other countries. Some kind of group varroa research think tank. Maybe Peter Edwards is familiar with the group. Coincidence or not? The queen of this race (sicula) is dark and the hair is not Grey or brown as in other dark races, but yellowish (Ruttner 1988). I have never seen a carniolan with the yellowish coloration of hair.Actually I have never seen a dark bee in the U.S. with blond hair. Quite beautiful in my opinion. All the 104 queens I first received were dark to jet black with the blond hair! What have others around the world seen? Any devoted carniolan lovers found carniolan queens with blond hairs? Ruttner on A.m.sicula : The most surprising observation according to Ruttner (1988) is that no swarm departs the hive until a number of virgin queens have hatched. The resident queen and daughters live together peacefully in the nest prior to the departure of the swarm. (source 92 edition of The Hive and the Honey Bee pg.56) "The best Russian lines I have found are dark and a few are jet black in color,but they do not look like my carniolan queens. The Russian/Russian queens are dark with blond hairs and the longest wings of any bees I have worked with" ( source " Russian Bees" January 2005 Bee Culture pg.53 by Bob Harrison) The bee lab ( summer 2002) reported Ruttner found A.m. sicula genetics in the Primosky bee. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 06:50:02 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-7"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Some kind of group varroa research > think tank. Maybe Peter Edwards is familiar with the group. Sorry - no. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 00:48:30 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "scot.mcpherson" Organization: Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: Iowa Honey Producers Association Annual Meeting In-Reply-To: <005201c5edcc$d9001620$1dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>You are just starting on your beekeeping journey Scot! The above could be a valuable piece of information. I have watched you grow on the Florida beekeepers list ( I am a lurker)! Build trust with these people and they will talk freely! << 20 years is just beginning? If you check the archives, you will see I have come and gone a few times over many years depending on how adversarial the list is at that time. Scot McPherson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 06:18:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Plant Smoke For Varroa In-Reply-To: <254.1aa5344.30b1b9b3@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Walnut leaf smoke has been tried: http://www.sare.org/reporting/report_viewer.asp?pn=FNE03-485&ry=2004&rf=1 George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:59:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tim moran Subject: Re: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, I feel a liitle siily. Google has been my home page since 1998, and I've given the same response as you countless times. "Honeybee genetics" yields about 146,000 hits in fact, no doubt esoterica-laden. Let me refine my request: I would appreciate those who have already spent a lot of time delving into this subject posting a few of their personal favorites, and maybe a few words on why they like any particular site. I will do the same if there turns out to be an interest.I sincerely hope I'm not coming across differently than intended. I am not too lazy or shameless to sit back and try to con others to make my life that much easier. We all work too hard to keep reinventing the wheel. I can't help but grin though, as I picture myself saying "Google, dude! Anything you want to find out, type it in. Really; anything." Unrelated question here. I was making sugar syrup and somehow left the burner on. It boiled a while and colored some. I measured the temperature to be about 218 F. Is it risky to use this for overwintering feed? What is the rule as far as overcooking goes. What is the highest temp at which syrup could still be safely used? I understand it shouldn't be boiled anyway, but clearly that doesn't stop me. Thanks, Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:04:44 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carlos Flechtmann Subject: VERA FONSECA; E-MAIL REQUEST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear netters I would greatly appreciate if any of you could provide me with the updated e-mail of Vera Lúcia Imperatriz-Fonseca, in Brazil. Thanks for your attention. Cheers, Carlos -- Carlos Flechtmann, PhD Department of Plant Protection FEIS/UNESP Av. Brasil, 56 15385-000 - Ilha Solteira - SP BRAZIL Phone: +55 18 3743-1142 FAX: +55 18 3743-1176 http://www.agr.feis.unesp.br/cahf/home Skype: flechtmann4868 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:24:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Feral bee colonies, etc. In-Reply-To: <6e2d57ce691f7887cebf89d142c230c4@lifesci.ucsb.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian M. Wenner wrote: > beekeepers are not allowed in that back country. The > bee colonies back there are certainly isolated from managed colonies. > Paul Cronshaw, regularly takes Boy Scout trips > into that region and has reported an abundance of honey bees that have > obviously survived the varroa mite infestation. Creates the obvious question- if so isolated would they not also be isolated from Varroa? Or have they been tested for Varroa? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:37:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Anne Frey Subject: Spring Seminar in Albany NY March 25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The SOUTHERN ADIRONDACK BEEKEEPERS ASSOCIATION (SABA) Presents . . . S.A.B.A.’s 2006 Practical Beekeeping Seminar Mark your calendar now for . . . Saturday March 25, 9:00 A.M. - 4:30 P.M. Speakers and Topics: Tony Jadczak – Recognizing and Dealing with Africanized Honey Bees & Identifying and Treating Diseases Jim Bobb - An Overview of Varroa Mite Control Measures Larry Connor - Achieving Drone Saturation for Small-scale Queen Production Aaron Morris – Producing Award-Winning Comb Honey Robert Sheahan – Mead-Making for Everyone Presentations run consecutively. Raffles follow. Location: Lecture Center One, SUNY Uptown Campus (The University at Albany), Washington Ave., Albany NY (Same place as in 2003, 2004, 2005). Cost: $25 per person, or $40 per couple. Includes refreshment breaks. Lunch is available nearby.) Walk-ins are welcome. (Add $5 per walk-in to regular cost.) Friday night Dinner: There will be a get-together dinner with speakers the evening of 3/24. Hotel: Lodging information will be available in future announcements. For further details: Contact Anne Frey, SABA@capital.net P.O. Box 286 Duanesburg NY 12056 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:57:03 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tim moran wrote: > Unrelated question here. I was making sugar syrup and somehow left the > burner on. It boiled a while and colored some. I measured the temperature > to > be about 218 F. Is it risky to use this for overwintering feed? Tim Why waste money by using heat. Cold water and mechanical stirring for 15 mins is far cheaper - and environmentally sound. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 07:26:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: caramelized syrup In-Reply-To: <002701c5eea3$dcfe9940$0201a8c0@o1j0k5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- tim moran wrote: I was making sugar syrup > and somehow left the burner on. It boiled a while and colored some. Is it risky to use this for > overwintering feed? What is the rule as far as overcooking goes. Not sure about temps, but if the sugar has caramelized it is my understanding that the syrup can be hazardous to the hive's health. This is especially true if the bees flights are restricted because of weather. I can't quote my source of info but recall it from info gathered years ago when I lived up in Yankee land. Not sure how that would go down here in the south when generally bees get some flight weather almost every week, if not every two weeks. Mike Located 1/2 way between Mobile and Montgomery __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:02:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: A. m. macedonica In-Reply-To: <002601c5eeab$d5a58520$457c2a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Peter Edwards wrote: >>tim moran wrote: >>It boiled a while and colored some. I measured the temperature >> to be about 218 F. Is it risky to use this for overwintering feed? >>Tim > > Why waste money by using heat. Cold water and > mechanical stirring for 15 mins is far cheaper - and environmentally sound. > Peter Edwards Need to heat it to get a thicker syrup. What I do is boil the water, turn off the heat, and then add the sugar while stirring vigorously. Don't have to worry about caramelizing the syrup that way. Amount of sugar you add depends on the purpose of feeding - thinner syrup for brood stimulation, thicker syrup for overwintering feed. Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:14:49 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "scot.mcpherson" Organization: Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Carmelized syrup In-Reply-To: <002701c5eea3$dcfe9940$0201a8c0@o1j0k5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't realy know anything in depth about genetics, I as far as the syrup is concerned, if you have discolored it then it has carmelized some and is very unsuitable for feed. Scot Mc Pherson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:44:18 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: A. m. macedonica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Stoops wrote: > Need to heat it to get a thicker syrup. What I do is > boil the water, turn off the heat, and then add the > sugar while stirring vigorously. You can make thick syrup (2lbs/pint) perfectly well with cold water if it is agitated for 15mins so that the sugar does not settle in the bottom. If you make a more concentrated syrup (i.e. a supersaturated solution) by using hot water then it will deposit sugar crystals when has cooled. Max possible concentration (from memory) is around 66% (approx 2lbs/pint - i.e. a proper Britsh pint!). Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:45:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Re: Feral bee colonies, etc. In-Reply-To: <4381D89E.6090909@suscom-maine.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 21, 2005, at 6:24 AM, Bill Truesdell wrote (altered somewhat): > Creates the obvious question- if back country bees are so isolated > would they not also be > isolated from Varroa? Or have they been tested for Varroa? Honey bees essentially disappeared from Santa Barbara in the early 1990s, with a couple of notable exceptions ( see: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjsep1999.htm ). The same happened in the back country, according to two of my beekeeper friends who have traversed deep into that country. Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:01:31 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Heating sugar temperature In-Reply-To: <002701c5eea3$dcfe9940$0201a8c0@o1j0k5> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I measured the temperature to be about 218 F. Is it risky to use this for overwintering feed? The easy to remember 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 fondant/bee fudge recipe suggested for spring/emergency feeding is: 1 pound/pint water heated to 234º F which has had 5 pounds of sugar stirred into it. Much higher than the 218º F. Personally, I’d not worry about it. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:17:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Plant Smoke For Varroa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Walnut leaf smoke has been tried: http://www.sare.org/reporting/report_viewer.asp?pn=FNE03-485&ry=2004&rf=1 Sounds promising. My only reservation is: are there any contaminants released when burning walnut leaves? I now from experience it's hard to grow anything under / next to walnut trees unless the fallen leaves are raked and removed promptly. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:32:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Heating sugar temperature In-Reply-To: <6da12193debca90cd2c2af7c78959362@gci.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What this sounds like is not just heating syrup to 218F but caramelization at the bottom. Not unusual with an unwatched pot. Undissolved sugar will settle to the pot bottom and you will be heating sugar more than syrup. That sugar blanket will keep the upper water insulated from the burner's heat while the sugar can easily get to much higher temperatures which it obviously did. If you quickly pour a large amount of sugar into water it will go straight to the bottom of the pot and can be fairly dry at the bottom! I have run into this when making candy. You really need to mix it well. So, what to do with the syrup? Personally, I would dump it. Why feed your bees something that is suspect? If you are in the south with a mild winter, you would probably only do a little harm, but that is just a guess. The "candy" that was mentioned in another post is for spring feed, not winter feed. It is white in color with no caramelization. Plus it is heated to 242F for soft ball stage, stirring constantly. You will not get carmalization at 218F or 242F if you are stirring the pot and watching the temperature. It is amazing how long the syrup takes to get to 242F but how quickly it will go to higher temperatures and caramelize. You have driven off most all of the water by then and are nearing "dry" sugar. Which is what most likely happened at the bottom of your pot. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:55:01 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Late virgin queen mating. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a question that's been bugging me the last two days. I had a couple of virgins emerge in the last week of October. We've had cold weather since with only 3 or 4 days where the temperatures approached 70 F when the bees were flying well. I've seen a few drones in the hives. Last Saturday, I checked the nucs I was hoping to overwinter these virgins in. Both queens were good size, the abdomens seemed a little larger than the last I'd seen them. There were no eggs though. I dispatched the 1st queen but then stopped short of doing the same with the second queen to check my regular hives first. My regular hives were in good shape, good stores, brood-rearing shut down (about a month earlier than last year!). Here is my question: could have my virgins gotten well mated on those few nice days but simply did not lay eggs because of the late season? Does anyone have experience with late mated queens not laying until the next spring? I thought there would have been a few eggs even if the workers decided to eat them... I carefully checked several frames. I'll give the second queen another week... Thanks! Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:30:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Nelson Subject: Re: Heating sugar temperature The recipe mentioned does work quite well. Actually the less water the better. To avoid carmelization at the bottom it requires continous stirring. I prefer a flat utensil (long handled ice scraper) to stir as it turns the mix on the bottom over the best. Start with most of the water heating to boiling and slowly add the sugar stirring constantly. Add sugar at rate that you can continue to stir the mixture. If it gets stiff or hard to stir add a very small amount of water (a dash in cooking equivelant). This process defies everything about heating and cooking with sugar. The small amount of water and continous stirring are what make it work. It does not dissolve or melt all of the sugar granule but heats the liquid part to a point where the granules are bonded. It does work for emergency feed including winter time. I have seen this mixed in batches of hundreds of pounds over burners burning hot directly under the pot. It also can be mixed in small batched (on the kitchen stove) for 1 or 2 colonies. About 15-20 pounds per board makes them thick enough the bees won't eat through the part they are clustered under and starve. Bob Nelson Norfolk, NE -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:27:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Late virgin queen mating. In-Reply-To: <20051121.145503.26958.132063@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Waldemar writes: could have my virgins gotten well mated on those few nice days but simply did not lay eggs because of the late season? Does anyone have experience with late mated queens not laying until the next spring? Reply: Yes. Very well can happen and does more so then many think. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper (who only does virgin requeening) Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:29:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Glenn Hile Subject: Bumblebee Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This may be of some interest to those with interest in Bumble Bees. http://www.operationbumblebee.co.uk/ Perhaps someone in the US will initiate a similar project. GH -- CoreComm Webmail. http://home.core.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:58:10 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Heating sugar temperature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Much higher than the 218º F. Personally, I’d not > worry about it. However when making candy, the sugar water solution is stirred continually when being boiled to prevent caramelisation. If the solution has coloured it has over heated ( the bottom of the pan) and the temp measured is not indicative of the damage done. I learned that caramelised candy was harmful to bees. Ruary -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 03:01:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tim moran Subject: Re: Heating sugar temperature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That was a nice group of responses to my overheating question. In light of information provided here, and in congruence with my very recent suggestion to Al Boehm to dump suspect syrup given the value of the bees relative to the cost of 20 lbs of sugar, I think I'm going to deny my bees the chance to evaluate this batch. I've already fed far more than that because they are in crisis mode regarding winter stores. As I sit here and remember that I am also a chef, and do a huge amount of baking this time of year, and possess a candy thermometer to boot, I realize that throwing the stuff out is not even a concern. I have options. Nonetheless, I would want to know the answer simply because of that darned curiousity streak. It looks like Winter is visiting Bucks County this week, and I am beyond grateful for the heavy feeding opportunity provided by the recent heat wave, without which I am certain most of my colonies would soon face starvation. I'm still real nervous, believe me. Thanks again and Happy Thanksgiving to all. Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:35:59 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: A. m. Sicula Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, >>Are beekeepers on the list which keep or have kept the Sicilian bee? If so I would love to hear their observations. Their descriptions of the queen bee. Perhaps this will be helpful: ABJ had a nice article on the Sicilian bee in a recent (July?) issue. It had some great photos, including one of the queen. The body coloration of the Sicilian bee was very attractive. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:04:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Craig Huntzinger Subject: Re: Bumblebee Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is some work being started up on bumblebees in the U.S. Just last week the USDA Bee Lab in Logan, UT put an announcement out looking for a scientist to work on bumblebees. From the announcement (ARS-X6W-0042) it states: “RESEARCH ENTOMOLOGIST to be responsible for a broad area of research on the population dynamics and management of bumblebees to improve the pollination of commercial crops of blueberries, small fruits, and greenhouse tomatoes, and to evaluate wild bumblebee decline in the U.S.” Craig Huntzinger Logan, UT -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:31:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Bumblebee Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Both Cornell and Penn State have active research projects involving Bumblebees. In fact, a person from Cornell was on the agenda to speak at ou= r NYS (ESHPA) winter meeting in 2004. I didn't attend, but maybe Aaron can tell us if she showed up, her name, and perhaps something of her presentation. What the British call 'Bumblebees', we call just plain solitary bees. In fact, our Mason Bee looks a lot like the British Bumblebees. We pretty much reserve the term bumblebee for the yellow/black striped bee that looks as i= f it covered with hair. From what little I know, I think the Brits are more correct than ourselves. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:56:30 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Bumblebee Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: >What the British call 'Bumblebees', we call just plain solitary bees. Lloyd Bumblebees are not solitary. They are social insects that form an annual nest, with only the queen overwintering - in the same way as wasps (I sense another teminological problem coming on!) - yellowjackets? Yes, they are very 'furry'. >From what little I know, I think the Brits are more >correct than ourselves. How could I possibly disagree with that? Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:59:33 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Bumblebee Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps more than you wanted to know here: http://www.nhm.ac.uk/research-curation/projects/bombus/index.html Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:18:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Bumblebee Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/11/05 22:41:11 GMT Standard Time, beegood@GMAIL.COM writes: <> We don't use the term for solitary bees, but for the social bees of the genus Bombus, and often colloquially for similar-looking bees such as the cuckoo bees of the genus Psithyrus. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:05:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bee Haven Subject: Bumble bees MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lloyd wrote that bumble bees are generally considered to be solitary = bees. They are social bees in the Family Apidae, along with honey bees, = stingless bees and orchid bees. Colony size ranges from 50 to a few = hundred bees, depending on the species. The best known solitary bees in temperate regions of North America are = probably the mason bee and the alfalfa leafcutter bee. Both are good = pollinators and are members of the Family Megachildae Steve Mitchell Steve and Gail Mitchell Bee Haven Farm 4820 Wilson Road Duncan, BC, V9L 6L6 Phone: 250-746-9916 Fax: 250-746-9233 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:17:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Zach Huang Subject: Re: Bumble bees Indeed bumblebees are eusocial insects, they just have an annual cycle like paper wasps (polistes) and yellow jackets. Dr. Nick Calderone has a student who was studying bumble bees and who also came to my lab and measured juvenile hormone for over 300 samples. Dr. Marla Spivak also had students studying bumble bees. Dr. Jonathan Canaani studied bumble bees in Tucson a couple of years ago but now he has a company (rearing Bombus) in Israel. some biology of bumble bees can be found on my site: http://cyberbee.net/column/ pollinator/bumblepoll.shtml Zachary, http://www.bees.net -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:22:46 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Bumblebee Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley wrote: > We don't use the term for solitary bees, but for the social bees of the > genus Bombus, and often colloquially for similar-looking bees such as the > cuckoo > bees of the genus Psithyrus. I understand that psithyrus has now been reclassified as a sub-genus of the genus Bombus. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:54:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: death's head hawk nabbed at airport In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...The passengers said they were bringing the insects so their son could raise them. But the death's head hawk, large in wingspan and freakish in coloration, is unwanted in the United States. Its larvae munch on plants in the potato family. Its adults sneak into beehives and feast, unnoticed, on honey. http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/370025.html Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:07:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Bumble bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Much thanks to those who corrected my statement concerning Bumble Bees as solitary bees (I really do know better) and provided great additional information! Now...if only someone would tell us how to get bumblebees to produce queens and drones so we, as beekeepers, could get a piece of the market for supplying them as pollinators! For those of you who are Americans, have a nice Thanksgiving. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:54:16 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: death's head hawk nabbed at airport MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But was it necessary to use scalding water, then alcohol to kill them? Surely a machine or a stick of dynamite would have done the trick... Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:05:16 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Bumble bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: Now...if only someone would tell us how to get bumblebees to produce queens and drones so we, as beekeepers, could get a piece of the market for supplying them as pollinators! Apparently it is not very difficult. The colonies can be kept in a flight cage and will produce mated queens. These are then caught and put with some newly emerged worker honeybees to found colonies. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:13:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: death's head hawk nabbed at airport MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wedmore says that 'The Sphinx or Death's Head moth is frequently listed as a pest, but is seldom found in numbers [in hives]... In South Africa these moths have been found gorged with honey.' Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 22:03:59 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Fw: [BEE-L] death's head hawk nabbed at airport MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Correction: Surely a machine GUN or a stick of dynamite would have done the trick... Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:27:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: death's head hawk nabbed at airport In-Reply-To: <004b01c5f03d$c68a9790$457c2a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Peter Edwards wrote: > But was it necessary to use scalding water, then > alcohol to kill them? > > Surely a machine or a stick of dynamite would have > done the trick... Homeland security regulations. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 22:28:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens I live in Minnesota and I am wondering why all of the states non-migratory beekeepers do not put pressure on the State Ag Dept to put an end to migratory beekeeping in this state. To my knowledge we do not need hives brought into the state for pollination. IMO the economics of keeping migratory beekeepers in business in this state is not worth the risk of bringing back AHB genetics to our honeybee population. I also wonder how this concern might be addressed by any state laws on the books concerning invasive species and the state's responsibilities to its citizens. At some level we can point the finger at the migratory folks for mites, SHB and antibiotic resistant FB. What next? The track records looks bad already. Imagine trying to get insurance for a hobby or sideline beekeeping business if AHB is continually in the news in the future. Or imagine the fun of asking landowners for bee yard locations with AHB in the news. I'm afraid that this AHB issue could be a very divisive issue for the beekeeping community in the near future. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 21:55:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens In-Reply-To: <200511240328.jAO3MK3O004843@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Brian Fredericksen wrote: > I live in Minnesota and I am wondering why all of > the states > non-migratory beekeepers do not put pressure on the > State Ag Dept to > put an end to migratory beekeeping in this state. Up until this last year Alabama had a prohibition against bringing in any bees on the comb into the state. At this time we have small hive beetles, both kinds of mites, AFB, and have trapped the Africanized bee around the Bay of Mobile. Packages and caged bees have had to be inspected and found disease and pest free (free of mites? Really!). The restriction did not prevent the invasion of the pests. Don't think it even slowed them down very much. It just prevented our commercial beekeepers from going out of state, making some money in pollination, and then bringing their own hives back in state. Didn't we do something of the same thing before WWII? Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. Don't mean to inflamitory. I am not even a sideliner yet, but I think we need to be visionary as to what the future holds. We need to be proactive, not reactive. Now with all these platitudes, as a beekeeping community, lets work together in a national sense. I am told there is a strain of Bacillis Thurengis which is just as deadly to the varroa mite as chems have been in the past, just not quite as quick in action. The bacillis takes a couple of weeks to do its job as apposed to days with the chems. All that is needed is a company to start production of the bacillis. Supposedly the USDA has already approved its use as a control for varroa. Why hasn't a company jumped on this? High start-up costs and minimal return. You infect one hive and drifting bees infect all the hives in the bee yard and for a couple of miles around. The bacillis persists for months, reinfecting any mites that might come into the infected hives from drifting bees from other areas. Source of info, state bee inspector at Alabama state beekeepers' meeting this month. Hope I didn't burn anyone's backside, that wasn't the purpose of this posting. We now live in a world community and we need to concern ourselves not only with our own problems but also with the problems of our neighbors. Like it or not, if those problems are not addressed, they will become our problems. Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:03:08 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ruary Rudd Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But I thought USA was the country of free enterprise! Ruary QUOTE why all of the states non-migratory beekeepers do not put pressure on the State Ag Dept to put an end to migratory beekeeping in this state. END QUOTE -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 07:09:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: BT for Varroa control? (Was: Avoiding Africanized Queens) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike in lower Alabama wrote about "a strain of Bacillis Thurengis which is just as deadly to the varroa mite as chems have been in the past." =20 I'm not saying this is true or false, but this is the first I've heard = of it, here on BEE-L. Mike, can you provide a source or documentation = for this statement? If not, readers beware. =20 Aaron Morris - thinking it sounds too good to be true! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 07:36:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Bumble bees In-Reply-To: <005001c5f03f$50070390$457c2a50@office> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:05 PM 11/23/05 -0000, you wrote: >Now...if only someone would tell us how to get bumblebees to produce queens >and drones so we, as beekeepers, could get a piece of the market for >supplying them as pollinators! When I was a kid, there was an old lady gardner near by that used to keep bumblebee colonies in pottery flower pots in her garden. The pots were inverted with a rock on top and had a hole in the side. She'd put a few mouse nests in the pot. The bumblebees just moved in. This past summer was a good season for bumblebees around here, there were lots out and around in even the worst weather. I was tempted to try to get some colonies going using the above method but never found the time. Perhaps I'll try next year. George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:40:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, Before we all leap on Brian we need to realize Brian asks a good questions. >why all of the states non-migratory beekeepers do not put pressure on the State Ag Dept to put an end to migratory beekeeping in this state. I think Mike answered the question very well. You stop the movement both ways and pollination fees are keeping many commercial beekeepers afloat! >To my knowledge we do not need hives brought into the state for pollination. Actually most of your states migratory commercial beekeepers would love to see out of state beekeepers prevented from entering to bid on the states pollination. We got back this year a pollination for around 400 hives which we had lost to out of state because the out of state beekeeper undercut our prices. Undercutting pollination prices is like a gas war. The winner is the grower! > is not worth the risk of bringing back AHB genetics to our honeybee population. AHb genetics already in your state from many sources. Packages & queens from Texas. Hives wintered in the south in areas of AHB. AHB is in California now! All you can do is what we did in Missouri which is make it illegal to keep AHB in the state and give the state inspector the right to depopulate hives known to be AHB. >At some level we can point the finger at the migratory folks for mites, SHB and antibiotic resistant FB. As far as the above the real finger needs to be pointed at queens & packages. Antibiotic resistant FB cause is a big unknown. Many hypothesis are around. Commercial beekeepers blame small beekeepers and small beekeepers blame the large beekeepers for AFB problems. Commercial beekeepers have got to control AFB to survive. Period. Sadly with many hobby beekeepers needing queens & packages ( to stay in the hobby) each year the industry decided (years ago) to keep shipping. Sure commercial beekeepers buy plenty of queens but we do for other than staying in business reasons. I have never been in a situation I could not rebuild from my own operation my losses. Not so with the hobby beekeeper. The industry sees all of the above problems as unstoppable. AHB is unstoppable. Ustoppable by restricting movement. Slow maybe but not stop. Stopping the flow of queens & packages into Minnesota would eliminate many small beekeepers in remote areas away from beekeepers selling queens,packages or hives but would slow the import of AHB. All the queen rearing areas of the U.S. have now had AHb finds. Those will increase. Should we stop all queens & packages from entering Minnesota to protect the beekeepers of the state? I don't think so. We should however increase the pressure on queen producers to keep their hives AHB free! Those beekeepers with two hives might be tomorrows sideliners and today's sideliners might be tomorrows commercial beekeepers. The industry needs the hobby & sideline beekeeper! > Imagine trying to get insurance for a hobby or sideline beekeeping business if AHB is continually in the news in the future. Insurance is a concern of mine as I have enjoyed low insurance rates for many years for my beekeeping business. Claims will drive insurance costs up. I do not believe the hobby beekeeper will ever spend the money for insurance coverage on his couple hives (approx. $350 to $500 per year). Although not high when compared to dealing with a couple million dollar lawsuit yourself most are willing to take the chance. An update on commercial beekeeping insurance: I insure with a national beekeepers group. In the old days we all paid the same low fee regardless of the size of the operation. Now we pay according to gross annual receipts which lets the little beekeeper enjoy a lower price than the large beekeeper pays. None of the larger beekeepers has complained but my insurance rate is higher than the way it was for years. Increase of a third over the last five years. AHB claims start happening and ALL the rates will rise. Even the rates we enjoy now are low because we are in a class of people which produce syrups and the insurance company is making light of the fact they are also covering stinging insects. If stinging incidents rise then the insurance industry will move us to a high risk of claims area and rates could double ( source my insurance agent). >imagine the fun of asking landowners for bee yard locations with AHB in the news. The locations not got with honey can usually be got with money. In Florida a large holding yard in the area of Miami was around $2,000 per year. Many landowners drop their concerns when money comes into the discussion. Beekeeping is always changing. The days of dropping a jug of your darkest honey by for yard rent might be gone in many areas! I am generous with landowners and give my best honey for yard rents. I leave plenty of truck ruts and truck paths through their fields. Beekeepers cry in California about not finding holding yards! A small jar of honey is not of interest to a California landowner for placement of a 1000 hives of bees on his property. A couple cases of honey or money sparks interest. >I'm afraid that this AHB issue could be a very divisive issue for the beekeeping community in the near future. Not really! We have seen the problem coming for a very long time. The subject has been discussed at Apiary inspectors meetings I have attended. AHB is coming and all we can do is requeen hot hives with European queens or depopulate. The only logical solution. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:48:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens In-Reply-To: <200511240328.jAO3MK3O004843@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > ...I am wondering why all of > the states > non-migratory beekeepers do not put pressure on the > State Ag Dept to > put an end to migratory beekeeping in this state. IMO, there are several other ways that would cause AHB to be transported to other states, such as queen, package and nuc sales. Migratory perhaps, would be one of the lesser causes, you would think that a hot hive would certainly have been discovered quickly by the beekeeper or customer in the field, and would necessitate quick requeening. > At some level we can point the finger at the > migratory folks for mites, > SHB and antibiotic resistant FB. What next? Maybe at some level, but IMO the problem is too wide spread for migrants to be held responsible to any substantial degree. IMO, much too often the bigger forces behind finger pointing I believe are likely politics, protectionism etc. As opposed to confronting the real issue which is the practice of using chemicals and treatments as stop gap solutions. Instead of fixing the problem from within, cover up solutions are much too often employed. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 11:29:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Almer's Apiary Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens In-Reply-To: <20051124055503.71313.qmail@web53408.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike wrote: "Up until this last year Alabama had a prohibition against bringing in any bees on the comb into the state." ALABAMA STILL HAS A LAW THAT PROHIBITS BRINGING HONEYBEES INTO THE STATE ON THE COMB. This law was violated by Dr. Tomm Johnson (who was then the state apiculturist) by allowing one beekeeper to ship one truck load of honeybees to California (and back) for almond pollination. This was a, one time, pilot program and may or may not be continued. If it is, the state has plans to implement new inspection procedures relative to queens and queen cells that might have some chance of intercepting any Africanized bees contained in the returning colonies. Alabama boarders are still closed by State law to the movement of honey bees into the state on the comb. Mike was right in stating that "we do have SHB". They first appeared in the middle of the state. When they arrived, Alabama A & M University did a study and found them to have come from interstate rest stops. Since states have little control the use of federal highways MIGRATORY beekeepers can travel through Alabama on the federal interstate highways. It is also true that Africanized colonies (to my knowledge - only 4) have been found and destroyed in the Mobile, Alabama area. These colonies came from ships entering Mobile Bay. They were found in state operated traps. Alabama has trap hives located at all points of entry into the state except highways. They are even at military airports. Mike also stated that Alabama has "mites and beetles". To my knowledge, we still have no pest that are resistant to any of the legal treatment methods. Our new state apiculturist is most capable of stopping this practice of violation of state laws IF the political structure does not prohibit his doing so. Alabama's main role in the beekeeping industry has for years been supplying queens and package bees. If we can keep our boarders closed we can continue to ship "clean" bees world wide. If you have plans to purchase packages or queens from Alabama, Please do not be discouraged by Mike's post. The Alabama Department of Agriculture and Industry is on top of the problem. They have made personnel changes and regulation changes such that if the movement of pollinating colonies is continued there should be minimal affect on our package bee and queen industry. Bob Fanning Past president, Alabama Beekeepers Association President, Madison County Beekeepers Association See our WebPages at www.alabees.com Huntsville, Alabama USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 12:56:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <003201c5eb28$0642fdc0$09bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, Quote from your mail dated 16/11/2005. "I guess I might as well be the first to say on a public forum that I have heard direct reports of "super varroa" not being killed by OA & formic!" As this is most probably considered to be an un-expected event by many, would you spill a few more beans from your sack of info. Regards, Peter South Central Manitoba. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:27:12 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carlos Flechtmann Subject: Apis x native bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear netters I am new to the 'bee world', but I am very much interested in the aspects of competition between Apis mellifera and native bees. I would greatly appreciate if you could indicate references which describe the methodology on how to evaluate the impact of the honeybee on native pollinator bees, especially in the neotropics. Thank you so much in advance for your attention. Sincerely, Carlos Flechtmann -- Carlos Flechtmann, PhD Department of Plant Protection FEIS/UNESP Av. Brasil, 56 15385-000 - Ilha Solteira - SP BRAZIL Phone: +55 18 3743-1142 FAX: +55 18 3743-1176 http://www.agr.feis.unesp.br/cahf/home Skype: flechtmann4868 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 17:15:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: non-virulent mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, >As this is most probably considered to be an un-expected event by many, Is a surprise to me and not what was expected. Those beekeepers had control problems with formic last fall after California almond pollination. My guess was a application problem then. Now reports are surfacing of the same problem of low varroa kill with formic. It is hard to put a finger on what is happening. In Canada beekeepers used formic once and then used apistan in say fall. These varroa are resistant to both Apistan & Checkmite so there is no backup treatment. It is too early to tell if these varroa are able to build resistance to formic acid. I know of no test (as there is with apistan & checkmite) to tell. Does the list? Low kills with formic are not uncommon but most can be linked to the wrong dosage. Low kills with Apilife var can also be had. Most can be linked to waiting to late in fall to do the treatment and varroa loads were over threshold. The beekeepers referred to say was not the case this year. I am only reporting the problem as told to me. I did not think varroa could become resistant to formic acid. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 20:20:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Barnett Subject: Re: BT for Varroa control? In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C0FF2@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 24, 2005, at 6:09 AM, Aaron Morris wrote: > Mike in lower Alabama wrote about "a strain of Bacillis > Thurengis which is just as deadly to the varroa mite > as chems have been in the past." Hi Aaron, Try this URL: I think it may be to what your query is directed! http://www.beesource.com/news/article/fungus.htm Bob Barnett -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:56:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Fungus control of varroa NEW In-Reply-To: <007001c5f14c$ee121c60$0abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I earlier mentioned a newly approved method of varroa control via a fungus infection of the mites. Below is a link to a web page advertising for manufacturers of the fungus. Don't know if it is a type of magic bullet for us, but seems like it would be hard for the mites to develop a resistance to it. My understanding is that the fungus attacks the carapace of the mite, breaking its integrity and allowing the mite to desicate. Mike in lower Alabama http://www.ars.usda.gov/business/docs.htm?docid=1243 __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 19:10:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Fungal control of varroa In-Reply-To: <007001c5f14c$ee121c60$0abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Additional info on the control organism can be had by Googling the following entry: Metarhizium anisopliae Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 09:11:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: messing with their brains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit also from the ARS Synthetic Chemicals for Controlling Insect Behavior ARS researchers have developed and patented (USPN 5,795,857 and USPN 5,792,446) artificial copies of insects’ brain chemicals that could prove useful for controlling insect behavior. These synthetic brain chemicals disrupt insect digestion, development, reproduction, and other vital body functions. The chemicals mimic natural chemicals in an insect’s brain, called neuropeptides, which control development, digestion, and water balance. Changing an insect’s behavior by messing with its brain may be the way to stop pests in the future. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 12:49:13 -0500 Reply-To: info@miteaway.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "NOD Apiary Products Ltd." Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <007001c5f14c$ee121c60$0abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob wrote; “Those beekeepers had control problems with formic last fall after California almond pollination. My guess was a application problem then. Now reports are surfacing of the same problem of low varroa kill with formic. It is hard to put a finger on what is happening.” A lot of beekeepers think that because they are using formic acid in almost any way they should have success. If not successful, rumors of resistance to formic acid surface, but no scientific documentation. We all know it wasn’t the Mite-AwayII single application formic acid pad (MAII) used last year because it wasn’t registered yet so not available. The beekeepers you are talking about must have been trying homemade application methods, since MAII is the only legal and proven FA treatment since the gel was pulled. MAIIs’ efficacy is due to its formulation and application method. “In Canada beekeepers used formic once and then used apistan in say fall. These varroa are resistant to both Apistan & Checkmite so there is no backup treatment.” There is a backup treatment! To quote the Ontario Provincial Apiarist Report in the August Sting edition: “Several beekeepers have been using Mite-AwayII in the fall instead of the hard chemicals. They report good success with the fall application ... the beekeepers in areas of resistance to both hard chemicals (Apistan and CheckMite+) need to use this method for sure.” page 22. In my own outfit, MAII has been the only varroa control used since 2002. Goes on in the spring when I unwrap and in September when I pull the honey. This follows the Ontario treatment recommendations. “It is too early to tell if these varroa are able to build resistance to formic acid. I know of no test (as there is with apistan & checkmite) to tell. Does the list?” Development of a test has been listed as one of the research priorities Apiculture and Pollination Sub-committee of the Government of Ontario earlier this month. “Low kills with formic are not uncommon but most can be linked to the wrong dosage.” Not only dosage but methodology! Research trials in the development of MAII showed even getting the recommended levels of formic into the hive wasn’t enough. It has to be done in the right way. “Low kills with Apilife var can also be had. Most can be linked to waiting to late in fall to do the treatment and varroa loads were over threshold. The beekeepers referred to say was not the case this year.” Treatment thresholds are important. There was a situation in Northern MN this year where a beekeeper brought his 2,000 hives home from CA pollination and decided not to treat for varroa in the spring. Seeing hives struggling with varroa by the end of July he had some hard decisions to make. Sticky boards were showing natural mite drops of 7 to 300 mites (and everything in between) in 24 hours. He pulled his supers and put on MAII starting Aug 10. He called me in September, still seeing a lot of mites. I recommended a second treatment once 30 days had passed after the August treatment. This he declined to do. By the end of October he had lost 25% of his hives since April, and what were left looked strong but still had high mite loads. All of this could be expected: skipping a spring treatment leads to colonies being way over thresholds by August, the MAII would allow the hives to get out a couple of pretty clean cycles of winter bee brood, giving him good bee populations, but not stop infestations from collapsing colonies from showing up in the surviving colonies, making their varroa counts look high. With soft chemicals even working at the 90-95% level, skipping a treatment is like a loan with high compound interest – everything gets added to the principle and becomes overwhelming. Not putting on a second treatment in the fall to make up for what he skipped in the spring is why he still had high mite loads end of October, not because MAII didn’t work. I think the facts show MAII saved most of his outfit from collapse. “I am only reporting the problem as told to me. I did not think varroa could become resistant to formic acid.” I’m not trying to shoot the messenger, just following up with more information. There is a lot of misinformation about formic in the beekeeping industry, which can lead to wrong conclusions. NOD Apiary Products has just produced a 9 minute DVD called “Working with Mite-AwayII” which includes a section on how FA works. It is being made available free of charge to beekeeping associations and State/Provincial Apiarists. Contact info@miteaway.com for more information if you want a copy. David v. __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 15:24:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: messing with their brains In-Reply-To: <200511251411.jAPEBmkB007521@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It was stated: These synthetic brain chemicals disrupt insect digestion, development, reproduction, and other vital body functions. The chemicals mimic natural chemicals in an insect’s brain, called neuropeptides, which control development, digestion, and water balance. Reply: Knowling that treatments all eventually progress up the food chain........any thoughts as to where this could or may end up? What are the parameters of it's usage to be concerned about? any thoughts here? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:52:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanized Queens In-Reply-To: <006901c5f0cd$a163c780$039d869f@DF9MK81J> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6B76127B > But I thought USA was the country of free enterprise! >Ruary States' rights, Raury, hold sway in this case...as it should be. Mike -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:56:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Fungal control of varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's a short article in the latest 'Beecraft', which arrived today, to the effect that BDI (Bee Disease Insurance) has financed research at Rothamstead into fungal control of Varroa for the next three years. I believe that they're working on a different fungus to the Americans, so there's hope yet. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:01:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanised queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 25/11/2005 05:06:10 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu writes: Sadly with many hobby beekeepers needing queens & packages ( to stay in the hobby) each year the industry decided (years ago) to keep shipping. Why should this be so? I have been involved with beekeeping in the UK for over a quarter of a century and I don't think I know anybody who buys queens and packages (except for a few Amm enthusiasts who may get some get a queen from Micheal Mac Giolla Coda in Ireland and then rear their own.) Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:29:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanised queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I don't think I know anybody who buys queens and packages In the U.S. the queen & package business is big business! The Wilbanks operation is featured in the November issue of Bee Culture and is not the largest. Quote from pg. 30 of the November 2005 issue: "Wilbanks Apiaries operate approx. 6000 hives for the production of package bees, which results in 15,000 to 20,000 packages a year. They produce over 60,000 queens for shipment worldwide." I would guess from the number of queen advertisements that there are around 20+ queen & packages producers in the U.S.. I do not know what the total production of queens & packages for a year might be. Most commercial beekeepers raise their own queens/cells or buy cells. Buy packages if they have serious losses . Buy packages in the far north where they depopulate hives. The northern tier beekeepers buy early queens before they can raise their own queens many times because of poor mating weather and the lack of mature drones (myself included). I am not sure how many of the above Wilbanks customers are hobby, sideline or commercial buyers. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 00:42:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <43860CF7.8080309@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, Thanks for your comments relating to Formic and a perceived resistance against its ability to damage varroa mites. I noted that you also mentioned mites being resistant to OA. Do I take it that the same general comments you penned about Formic acid may "count" for OA? It would be a good thing to actually know why Formic /OA kill the mites was definitely known. A higher degree of certainty of whether resistance may result from the knowledge. High or low pH. seems to be a deterrent to life processes if the organisms are not tolerant to such. Then, there are bacteria that thrive in environments that would seem to defy "the norms for life" - those that make a living around hot vents in seismically active areas. Regards, Peter South Central Manitoba -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 01:53:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tim moran Subject: Re: non-virulent mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I considered the formic/oxalic acid resistance question from the boric acid-cockroach perspective. After years in the food industry, I've had plenty of experience with roaches, and I can't stand them-but I respect them. I've seen the resistance factor to standard pesticides. One day in the early 80's, a female brown-banded cockroach, with a fully-developed egg case ready to drop, wasn't slowing down after a big burst of Brand X City-strength . Over about 20 minutes, I repeatedly administered point-blank sprays. The subject lived through over half a can. In the final analysis, it's probably the petroleum distillates that took her out. I 'd heard about boric acid and checked it out.A stomach poison and abrasive to the exoskeleton, it kills within 3-10 days. That's to slow for many Americans, but once they-the roaches-start dying they keep on doing so. An application lasts for months if it remains dry. Borax-considerably cheaper than boric acid-is also effective. I don't know about actual cost per kill; its a hell of a lot less than pest control fees. I can understand by its chemical and mechanical nature why it is not likely to foster resistance. What might be different with organic acids such as these two? My first inclination was to think like Bob-that it was an application problem. But what if it isn't? Of the top of my head I'm going to suggest that there may be some unforseen interaction between one of these compounds and some aspect of mite bio-chemistry that allows for detox and is survivable in all other aspects. This may or may not seem far-fetched, but these compounds are widely distributed in living things; check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formic_acid for a little info.Here is an excerpt from the last section: " Formic acid is readily metabolized and eliminated by the body. Nonetheless, some chronic effects have been documented. Some animal experiments have demonstrated it to be a mutagen, and chronic exposure may cause liver or kidney damage. Another possibility with chronic exposure is development of a skin allergy that manifests upon re-exposure to the chemical." These effects are on humans.I understand the risks of extrapolation. I'm trying to indicate an intimate involvement with biochemistry across several domains exists.Roles as allergenic and possible mutagenic suggest that (chronic?) sub-lethal dosing could provide a crucible for any extremely unlikely interference with genetic or immunological processes in Varroa. I'm not presenting an hypothesis here as much as a reminder that nature is complex; organic chemistry mind-boggling. What seems to be obvious and common sense might not be after all. Sometimes the more we want something to be true, the more we want to believe in it. We all can surely agree that in the long run, we probably won't have to worry about chemical issues; some form of genetic manipulation will handle everything. In the long run , we are all dead. I'm kind of thankful that it is a real long run I'm talking about, because I'm not sure how much genetic manipulation I could stand. Anybody remember the song "In The Year 2525," by one hit wonder Zager and Evans? So for now, I'm behind conventional genetics for the honeybees' problems. Fortunately, (I think) nature has provided a tremendous toolbox with the properties of that genetic structure. That is why I firmly embrace the ideas of Bob Harrison and Dann Purvis. If you haven't yet, go to the Purvis Brothers Apiary site and read the philosophy. As my livelihood is not dependent upon beekeeping I've decided to follow the zero-treatment survival-based approach, in my quest for a locally-adapted strain combining some of the best, most resistant lines available. I am not a commercial beekeeper-yet, but should the day come,I'd rather replace 1,000 queens yearly than 1,000 queens plus X,000 chem strips or pads . I don't know the answers, but I'm always curious.While I don't enjoy it, I'm not afraid to be wrong, especially if it leads to different areas of focus or deeper analyses; or any manifestation of an open mind. We're gonna get through all this stuff. I don't know when; I don't know precisely how.Some people will have it much worse than others, and nothing is ever completely fair. Along the way, perhaps the only thing we can effectively control is the collective level of rancor versus collaboration. Happy Holidays to All! My deepest appreciation for all men and women in uniform, and their families, for the sacrifices they make in the name of this country. Tim ----- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 10:36:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanised queens In-Reply-To: <006501c5f239$aec179a0$1bbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-37CA723E > The northern tier beekeepers buy early queens before they can raise their >own queens... Which is why I'm trying to convince more "northern tier beekeepers" to raise their own nucs in late summer, overwinter them, and use them to replace winter losses, make spring increase, or requeen weak colonies. The process has changed the way I keep bees...for the better. Better bees, better crops, better wintering. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 - Release Date: 11/25/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 11:28:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanised queens On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:29:59 -0600, Bob Harrison < busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM> wrote: >Most commercial beekeepers raise their own queens/cells or buy cells. > >Buy packages if they have serious losses . Buy packages in the far north >where they depopulate hives. I searched for stats on the bee & queen industry and could find nothing current. I doubt very much if "Most commercial beekeepers raise their own queens", since it is so much easier to buy them, but again -- no facts. My impression, from my brief stint at the Calif package and queen company. I will keep looking . . . -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 11:12:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanised queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Isis & All, I said: >Most commercial beekeepers raise their own queens/cells or buy cells. . I doubt very much if "Most commercial beekeepers raise their own queens", since it is so much easier to buy them, but again -- no facts. If you look at my post you will see *cells* by the word queens. Cells are a buck or two a piece and you get better acceptance. Doubt you will find stats on cells sold. A friend (not a queen breeder) sold over 50,000 cells last year to commercial beekeepers. Cells are what the California queen producers do not what you to learn about. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 10:33:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: messing with their brains In-Reply-To: <20051125232454.13389.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Original poster wrote: >ARS researchers have developed and patented (USPN 5,795,857 and USPN >5,792,446) artificial copies of insects’ brain chemicals that could prove >useful for controlling insect behavior.... Dee asked for some thoughts on the parameters of it's usage to be concerned about the above, dangers etc? I do have some thoughts here. First, to the original poster: I don’t see that they are referring to anything related to honeybees here. This is research that was being developed back in 1998, the focus as far as I am aware is for use on crop pests such as corn earworm etc. I don't know that there is any current research being done for use on honeybee pest (if so, somebody please provide the info). Reply to Dee and All: Speaking from my background as a Certified Applicator of Pesticide, these are a class of pesticides called biopesticides. All biopesticides have a nontoxic mode of action which means it's not the pesticide itself that is toxic to the pest, but affects on the target insects digestive, nervous system or interfering with reproduction or other life supporting functions that is fatal. Biopesticides are divided in to 3 major groups, 1. Biochemical (example would be pheromone based pesticides which might interfere with locating mates, or chemicals that interfere with insect neuropeptides that control vital functions). 2. Microbial (example would be BT or other genetically modified, or naturally occurring organisms. And 3. Plant Incorporated Protectors (genetically altered plants, for example plants altered with Bt genes etc. I believe the plants themselves are classified as pesticides here also). Let’s hypothesize that synthetic neuropeptides have potential for use in treating honeybee pests: Biopesticides have the same structure, and are functionally identical to, a naturally occurring counterpart, and the fear here is that this would be used as a wedge to push for the so called "organic" approval, adding yet another artificial crutch interfering with the development of natural resistance in the honeybees. Weather applied as a bait, dust or spray, it would come in contact with honeybees and be consumed and moved throughout the colony by nature of normal colony functions, and we do not yet know how these things might contaminate, progress up the food chain, affect non target species or interact with other components. But IMO, this is not where the real damage will occur, it will encourage dependence on yet another crutch, placing another man made pesticide obstacle to interfere with the honeybees natural ability to develop resistance. Also, honeybees are highly sensitive to chemical ques within the colony for communication and other vital functions. As these types of pesticides that mimic chemicals in insects brains become more common in the honeybees environment, there is no way to predict and we do not yet know the effects that random concoctions of multitudes of different neuropeptides will have on the honeybees body functions or ability to communicate at the colony level. I do have a question: Looking at the success from the hard work over the past decade or so that organic methodry and breeders along with the ARS has made in producing an excellent varroa tolerant bee, ie. Russians, SMR, Hygienic, Small Cell etc. Why do we continue to encourage a chemical solution when non chemical methods are working? As an Certified Applicator of Pesticides, I know that chemicals should NEVER be used when there are non chemical alternatives available. IMO, the breeders and all beekeepers might want to focus efforts in encouraging the ARS to continue research efforts in breeding varroa tolerant bees, instead of stepping backwards into the chemical dependence that has failed so many times in the past. IMO, a highly effective chemical treatment would be another stop gap solution at best and be detrimental to the amazing advances made so far by the breeders and those in breeding research. If we were to learn from mistakes made on the past, efforts focused away from treatments and toward breeding a fundamentally fit bee would be better for the breeders and the entire beekeeping industry in the long run. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 10:34:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanised queens In-Reply-To: <006501c5f239$aec179a0$1bbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >I don't think I know anybody who buys queens > >and packages > > In the U.S. the queen & package business is big > business! The Wilbanks > operation is featured in the November issue of Bee > Culture and is not the > largest. I have a buddy who is planning on raising queens this coming year and selling them locally. He is getting into all the phases of the beekeeping business except the packages. I have even ordered two nucs from him for one of this year's students of mine. Right now I think he is about $6 - $ 8K in the red. Will be interesting to watch and see how he does. And, this is a sideline for him. I also plan on raising my own queens this coming year - for splits. I have one Italian that has done great this year and if she survives into the coming year I plan to put her into a nuc and use her to raise new queens. This yard should produce interesting colonies since I have an unrestricted mating area and have SMR's, Russians, and Italians in the yard which would provide at least some of the drones. If nothing else, I should get queens good enough to provide increase during the summer via splits. Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:12:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanised queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 11:28:57 Isis Glass wrote: "I searched for stats on the bee & queen industry and could find nothing current. I doubt very much if ‘Most commercial beekeepers raise their own queens’, since it is so much easier to buy them, but again -- no facts." The National Agricultural Statistics Service trough each state's department of agriculture surveys the industry through form O.M.B. 0535- 0153 for the following information: (1) Each state in which honey is harvested. (2) Number of colonies for all purposes. (3) Number of colonies with honey harvested. (4) Honey Production (pounds). (5) Honey Stocks on Dec 15th. This information is assimilated and published by the NASS. Links to these publications have been given on BEE-L. For a rough estimate of colonies used for raising queens which would also include pollination activities I suggest that you take Number (3) from Number (2) to get a handle the “other” colonies not used for honey harvesting. Now, putting the above aside think about the pure economics involved in queen raising versus queen or queen cell purchasing. It is cheaper to raise your own queens. Once you have recognized the costs for start-up the rest is easy. Labor is cheap compared to the going price of a brick or battery of 100 mail order queens. Example: Wilbanks Apiaries advertised last spring for quantities of 100 up at $10.00 a shot plus shipping. And, they are available when you want them, not when the queen supplier will have them. I am not very efficient at producing my own queens compared to other queen and package producers, yet the only time that I will order queens from the south is for delivery prior to good flying weather. I take certain steps to assure a strong buildup of drone mother colonies as early as possible in order for my own queens to get out and mate when conditions are favorable. And I certainly can raise a 100 Russian or Minnesota Hygienic queens for less than the $1000.00 plus shipping that it would take to purchase one hundred very good production, gentle black tipped Georgia Italian queens. If a commercial beekeeper wants to stay in business he or she needs to have an ample and continuous supply of queens or else he or she will lose time, bees, money and honey. Day to day operations involve movement from yard to yard, it costs too much to come back and requeen. It’s as simple as that. Bob Harrison and a few others on this list have more years of experience with bees than I will ever see, you can take what they have to say to the bank, I savor their every word with interest. Cheers, Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 11:17:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: messing with their brains MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Knowling that treatments all eventually progress up the > food chain........any thoughts as to where this could or > may end up? What are the parameters of it's usage to be > concerned about? any thoughts here? > > Respectfully submitted, > > Dee A. Lusby Hello Dee and All Very good questions that need to be answered, BEFORE any usage of chemicals in bees. The variance of bee behavior do to genetics is very complex, just by itself. If we add chemicals, that are made by the organium it self, we put the internal funtion of gland secreation out of balance. I enjoy science very much and have found that we know very little about the long term affects of some of man's actions with nature. It is important to research as much as possible before taking action on any modification to a living organisum Thank You Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries hiveharvest.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 16:48:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanised queens In-Reply-To: <002301c5f2ac$a5e3e5c0$02bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-9AF2F5 > A friend (not a queen breeder) sold over 50,000 cells last year to > commercial beekeepers. Cells are a buck or two a piece and you get better acceptance. But, is acceptance the name of the game? Or is it quality? Is it only having a live queen in your colony that counts, or is it how that queen performs. From all I've been told by my beekeeping friends who buy cells from a beekeeper selling many thousands of cells, the quality isn't there. Colonies that only build up so far, too much chalkbrood, poor wintering. I hear it over and over again. "I haven't the time to raise my own cells." Bad decision. You can always raise better queens from your best stock, than you can buy in from far away. Coupled with over wintering these queens in 4 frame nucs and mini nucs, for spring use, there should be no reason to buy in stock...except perhaps for a breeding program. Only takes a few years to work it into your seasonal management. And then you'll wonder how you got along so long on those bought queens you just had to have...because you could buy them a couple months earlier than you could raise them. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 - Release Date: 11/25/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:07:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Introducing queen cells In-Reply-To: <002301c5f2ac$a5e3e5c0$02bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello Isis & All, > > I said: > >Most commercial beekeepers raise their own > queens/cells or buy cells. > > Cells are what the California queen producers do not > what you to learn > about. > > Bob > One consideration concerning buying queens instead of cells is that introduced queens, if accepted, start laying within a day or two of release, hopefully prolifically. With cells you have to wait for the day or two or three before they emerge. Then there is the three to hopefully less than seven day wait for them to fly and mate, and then the time it takes for them to start laying. Time between cell purchase and having a laying queen, four days to ten? At approximately 1000 up to 2000 eggs a day that would add up to anywhere between 2000 to 16,000 workers the caged queen would have on the cell queen. Hive is stronger, faster, with the caged queen. Course, my math could be wrong but it's approximate. Mike __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:51:44 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Introducing queen cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With cells, you don't need to wait for a queenless hive. Put a piece of foil round it as a protector (I'm not sure this is really necessary, but it does no harm), and stick it between to frames. Most of the time the bees will supersede the old queen, at least with my strain, and if they don't, they probably know best. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:40:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Introducing queen cells In-Reply-To: <20051126220725.63863.qmail@web53413.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-45A64299 > Time between cell purchase and >having a laying queen, four days to ten? Closer to 14 days than 10. My cycle is 16 days, so every 8 days, cells go in mating nucs. After the first week, every 8 days I have a batch of queens to catch. Even at 16 days, some queens are just starting to lay. I guess it depends some on the strain. I understand that Russians take longer to get queens to a laying condition...closer to 20 days. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 - Release Date: 11/25/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:18:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Introducing queen cells In-Reply-To: <20051126220725.63863.qmail@web53413.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 26, 2005, at 5:07 PM, Mike Stoops wrote: >> >> > One consideration concerning buying queens instead of > cells is that introduced queens, if accepted, start > laying within a day or two of release, hopefully > prolifically. With cells you have to wait for the day > or two or three before they emerge. Then there is the > three to hopefully less than seven day wait for them > to fly and mate, and then the time it takes for them > to start laying. Time between cell purchase and > having a laying queen, four days to ten? At > approximately 1000 up to 2000 eggs a day that would > add up to anywhere between 2000 to 16,000 workers the > caged queen would have on the cell queen. Hive is > stronger, faster, with the caged queen. Course, my > math could be wrong but it's approximate. Hi Mike and all I have used queen cells exclusively for several years. I purchase them from a local producer who has written about his breeding program in ABJ. I see the delay in brood( I figure 15 days) as a positive. 15 days without brood is 15 days without varroa( see thread on caging queens for varroa control). There are several disadvantages to using queen cells(weather being #1), but when weather cooperates I have had late May splits with 2 frames of brood and a queen cell produce 200+ lbs (highest in last 5 years 347 lbs). 2005 was a poor year for my splits as late June and early July were hot(30C+) and dry. The plants matured before my splits were strong enough. Goldenrod flow was good. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:08:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Avoiding Africanised queens In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051126162844.012a4438@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Michael Palmer wrote the bits that I quote from, my comments amplify what was said rather than opposing his points. > But, is acceptance the name of the game? Or is it quality? This is not a simple trade-off, the cost of a cell may be low, but if the quality is not as you would like, your management costs will be higher for the same reward, which sounds like hard work for nothing. > I hear it over and over again. > "I haven't the time to raise my own cells." So you spend dollars that might go towards feeding your family, on queens that were raised in a different location, these queens do not perform as well as the queens that you would have raised yourself, so your honey yield is lower than it would have been, which means even less dollars to feed the family. Does this make economic sense ? > You can always raise better queens from your best stock, than > you can buy in from far away. >...> > there should be no reason to buy > in stock...except perhaps for a breeding program. We have come full circle... this portion of the thread started when my friend Chris, pointed out that "I don't think I know anybody who buys queens and packages (except for a few Amm enthusiasts who may get some get a queen from Micheal Mac Giolla Coda in Ireland and then rear their own.)" That is about the size of the situation in UK, most raise their own queens, but will only buy in 'breeding stock'. I used to be a bee breeder myself, always striving for a better bee, in all of my beekeeping I have only bought about a dozen queens, all of which were purchased with a particular trait or behaviour that I wished to explore and propagate. In addition to the purchases there was a good deal of swapping with others who were also breeding. Apart from the breeding work I also used to raise queens for sale, this was never a large scale like in US, because there was no point in supplying outside of my local area. My reputation was important to me and had I sent queens far afield they would be unlikely to perform as well as expected and criticism would be levelled at me about quality. I hear such criticisms made against queen suppliers in US. It is not that the queens are duff, they just do not fit the geographic location that they are expected to perform in. If early queens are important in your management strategy, then you can raise them the previous season and as Mike points out over winter them, there is some overhead in nuc boxes or divided brood boxes to achieve it, but the nucs themselves are largely self supporting and require very little in the way of labour, especially as the nuc raising can be done when other work is not so heavy. > Only takes a few years to > work it into your seasonal management. Yes, it does take a 'few' years, but those years are in step with the learning curve and you will have a better beekeeping business after the years have been spent. But do not think of it as a final solution, there will always be new tweaks that you can add to make the system even more efficient. I'll finish with a quote, but I could just as well have said the words myself. > And then you'll wonder how you got along so long on those > bought queens you just had to have...because you > could buy them a couple months earlier than you could raise them. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:23:17 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lennard Pisa Subject: requeening: cell vs mated queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The thread "avoiding africanised queens" awoke an old question in me: ...say we have 2 hives with the same population and age-ratio (of brood to nurse bees to foragers). A major honeyflow is coming up in a month. Hive 1 is requeened wit a cell/virgin queen, hive 2 with a full laying adult queen of the same "strain". In hive 1, the age ratio in a month will shift towards having a lot of foragers and a starting queen with a little brood. In hive 2, the age-ratio in a month will be towards more nurse bees and brood as the adult queen will have kept on laying. Which one has the best population ratio to generate surplus honey during the flow? L -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:34:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: David Subject: Russian Bee Research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Francois Petit of the Pilgrim Community Ventures in Ontario, Canada has been conducting research on Russian honeybee stock since 2001. Details of his research are found at: http://www.igs.net/~pilgrimventures/Pilgrim_Honey_House.htm Dave McKinney, NB Beekeepers -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:56:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lennard writes: Hive 1 is requeened wit a cell/virgin queen, hive 2 with a full laying adult queen of the same "strain". Reply: Subject matter is cell vs mated queen. Now is added virgin queen and "full laying adult queen" If adult queen is caged and now NOT "full laying adult queen" CURRENTLY IN ACTION OF DUTIES, then what is the timeframe difference between a virgin queen and an adult queen having to turn back on again to lay? I myself see NONE! Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:05:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lennard Pisa Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sorry Dee, I'll be more to the point. A cell or a virgin queen used to requeen a colony will lead to a forager based population ratio later on when compared to requeening with a mated queen that can continue to lay full force. A mated queen that s caged for 7-14 days has the same effect as a cell/virgin for that matter. With a coming honeyflow in mind, does a colony with little brood/nurse bees and a lot of foragers produce more honey than a colony with a lot of brood and nurse bees? Will the first invest in stores or in population build up? Which one would you prefer? L -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:47:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lennard writes: With a coming honeyflow in mind, does a colony with little brood/nurse bees and a lot of foragers produce more honey than a colony with a lot of brood and nurse bees? Will the first invest in stores or in population build up? Which one would you prefer? Reply: Now here you are into another scenario again. For even a well mated queen transferred quickly into a hive needing help will still be giving a good queen to a hive short on brood and therefor stronger force with foraging bees. It is also giving of a queen from within your own operation thus transferring around. Here giving extra sealed brood with accompanying nurse bees on frames, to the weak along with the queen would equalize the situation whether cell, virgin, or mated laying or unlaying queen really, Wouldn't you think? Still equalizing with local stock on hand. Just basic workup procedures for a coming flow everyone does, right? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:02:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen On Mon, 28 Nov. Lennard Pisa wrote: "Sorry Dee, I'll be more to the point.... Which one would you prefer?" To Lennard, Dee, and the List, To the point: I want a queenright hive ASAP! Its as simple as that! Honeyflows can come early or late or not at all, but a hive that's queenless can not get any better! It will only get worse. Cheers, Chuck Norton Reidsvile, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:05:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Africanized Bees Are the Issue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, The discussion on AHB seemed to turn into one on raising or buying = queens. The issue is or was what can or should be done to slow or stop = the spread of AHB throughout the US. When I first started beekeeping = AHB was still below Mexico. The obvious question was "can they arrive = and become established here in Pennsylvania? The answer then was, = "based on there southern migration in South America they probably would = not become established above the 35=B0N Latitude, or somewhere in North = Carolina. I think there is good evidence to support that in South = America where the range may increase in prolonged mild weather but is = usually corrected during normal cold spells. =20 The above does not take into account queens and packages being shipped = north or the annual migration of colonies for pollination. Bob Harrison = noted that closing a border to a certain state would only hurt = beekeepers in that state. I totally agree with that statement. This = cannot be looked at according to political boundaries. Using good = science, something overlooked often when dollars are in the mix, I think = a map can be drawn showing the predicted future expansion according to = conditions necessary to support a sustainable population. That map = should then be compared to one that shows the current expansion. The = current map becomes the "Hot Zone". States on the future map, not = within the hot zone but capable of sustaining the population, become the = "Warm Zone". The rest of the country is the "Cold Zone". Control = efforts could then be tailored to each area. Surely there would be no = initial value in setting traps in upstate NY or New England, but it = could be of great value in SC. There are a number of possibilities but I am sure the nay Sayers will = quickly point out how it won't work. Folks like Mike Palmer and Kirk = Webster have shown that the north does not have to be dependent on the = south to stay in business. As Michael has often said, you just have to = change the way you do things. If we would have taken the same approach with Varroa 15+ years ago where = would we be today? We were told, "it can't be stopped so just buy your = strips and shut up and don't get in the way of anyone really trying to = make a living with bees." That is now water under the bridge. But = other than the way AHB can and will be spread, it cannot be compared to = mites, hive beetle, foulbrood or any other beekeeping problem. =20 In the Mid Atlantic region the current plan is one of defeat. It = assumes we can't keep them out so lets plan on how we deal with them. = In most of the US it is legal to own a pit bull terrier. But just try = to put one or two in a yard next to a day care center. Most parents = would not want there children exposed and would fight the dog owner or = take their children to another center. The dogs could be completely = harmless, but it won't matter. In my part of the state people are = encroaching on agriculture. It is not like out west or in Texas where = there may be miles between individuals. My bees must be able to coexist = with humans. There is no alternative, and all the education we try to = do will go up in smoke after the first serious stinging incident hits = the news. I have spent most of my career in product safety and risk assessment. = There is only one truth. PERCEPTION IS REALITY. It doesn't matter who = is right or what the facts are. If someone thinks they will be hurt by = something they will fear it and work to remove it. I guarantee that if = we allow the spread of AHB many folks reading this will not be keeping = bees in the future. Possibly a few will wish they never had. Bob Harrison mentioned liability insurance and the way it is available = today. In the future it will be more risk based, just like automotive = insurance. Everyone will pay a lot and the more colonies you have the = more you will pay. All we need is a few good lawsuits to get the = insurance companies attention. It is a given that agriculture cannot = function without bees. However, peanuts could replace almonds really = quickly if almonds cost $50 a pound. No one is at fault here. There are no good or bad guys in this = situation. This is a serious threat and we have to work together to get = through it. We have to learn the facts and deal with this in a manner = that is beneficial to the entire industry. =20 Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:21:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Africanized Bees Are the Issue In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bogansky,Ronald J. wrote: > There are a number of possibilities but I am sure the nay Sayers will > quickly point out how it won't work. Folks like Mike Palmer and Kirk > Webster have shown that the north does not have to be dependent on > the south to stay in business. As Michael has often said, you just > have to change the way you do things. 60,000 colonies come into Maine each year from Florida, where AHB has been found. This discussion is almost a mirror of what happened when Varroa was first found. There were several States that wanted to close their borders to pollinators going North. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and the States worked out the protocols to move bees from Florida to Maine and the other Northern States. Canada closed their borders and got Varroa anyway. But I will leave that alone. There are AHB in all of the Southern US and California. The Southerners seem to be dealing with it but we in the North seem to be cowering in fear from a manageable problem. We have AHB in Maine. They come in on pallets and they come in from helpful (and I mean that) beekeepers bringing in bees from the south to help other beekeepers. Hot hives are treated like we have treated hot hives since the dawn of the bee suit. Hives are re-queened and we go about our business. I have had hot hives where the bees would meet me in my garden some 200 feet from the hives, and this was well before AHB. I did something about it- re-queened. The only problem with AHB and beekeepers is the ones who know they have AHB and do nothing about it. But there is not enough legislation in the world to counter stupidity, so it is up to us to police ourselves (which I have seen many times). In Maine, we are fortunate to have the best Bee Inspector in the US. He works with the commercial pollinators and with the Florida Inspector to keep the AHB problem manageable. I appreciate his work and have no problem allowing my fellow beekeepers to come to our state and earn a living as well as help our blueberry growers do the same. Bill Truesdell (professional positive naysayer) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:04:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <20051128154716.12805.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chuck writes: To the point: I want a queenright hive ASAP! Its as simple as that! Reply: Okay then, it's close to good flow, possibly main flow even,your bees are built up with exception of a bummer hive, and swarms are now around most all areas, even those with big bees.............. So ketch a swarm fast by calling fire dept/police/home assoc to help them and at same time get free bees......then drop swarm in bucket and then empty into queenless hive and put lid on........99% of time, they will stay and reset-up the queenless colony with plenty of bees wanting lots of honey and fast brooding up. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeeper/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:31:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Medhat Nasr, Ph. D." Subject: Re: non-virulent mites In-Reply-To: <438803D3.7080205@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Peter Said: High or low pH. seems to be a deterrent to life processes if the organisms are not tolerant to such. It is true that formic acid and oxalic acid mode of action most likely is based on the pH. It seems to me that we are in north America new to the game of using formic acid and oxalic acid. In Europe (over 15 years) and recently in Canada (10 years) we have been playing with this stuff for a while. The window for using these chemicals is narrow and the efficacy could vary too much based on the seasonality of bees. I just gave a talk at Alberta Beekeepers' AGM. The title was "Oxalic acid is no silver bullet". The message was that the era of using smart chemicals is over. These smart chemicals worked for every beekeepers! Now, we are playing with dumb chemicals (OA, FA& essential oils- Apilife var...etc.). To make these chemicals work, we need smart beekeepers. Beekeepers need to watch for time of applications, dose, brood presence, and robbing. The monitoring after treatment has become an essential part of the management. We need to ensure that the treatment worked. In fall 2004 in my experiments, bee colonies were treated with OA evaporizer "Local design under testing". The efficacy was 94%. This year the same colonies were treated with OA evaporizer. The efficacy was about 50% and high numbers of mites were found in the hives. The difference was that a nice Indian summer / long fall continued through November in Alberta. Temperature was around 10-15 C (50-68 F) in Alberta Canada !!!!!! Go Figure. Colonies continued to produce brood and mites were protected in the capped cells. We had to retreat these colonies 4 weeks after the first treatment. Guess what. the efficacy bounced back to 95% and number of mites left in the colony is no longer significant. I hope that sharing these data and experience help. Keep in mind "There is a difference between smart chemicals and dumb chemicals" Medhat Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Provincial Apiculturist Crop Diversification Centre North 17507 Fort Road Edmonton, AB, Canada T5Y 6H3 Tel: (780) 415-2314 Fax: (780) 422-6096 Mailto:medhat.nasr@gov.ab.ca -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:50:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck writes: To the point: I want a queenright hive ASAP! Its as simple as that! Actually, in his book _Honey_in_the_Comb_, Eugene Killion recommends a = queenless period precisely at the time Dee describes, "close to good = flow, possibly main flow even, your bees are built up ...." Right at = this time is when Killion WANTS his colonies queenless and in the = process of requeening. He actually recommends purposely making the hive = queenless at this point in time. His rationale is that while the hive = is queenless the bees will store unripened nectar in the brood chamber, = but once a virgin queen gets mated and starts laying the workers will = move all the ripening honey from the brood chamber into the honey supers = to make room for the newly mated queen to start laying. Killion planned = the queenless period and used it to his advantage to fill the comb honey = supers. It is truely amazing to see how quickly the combs get filled = once the new queen starts laying. According to his practice, cell or = mated queen makes no difference. =20 I have on several occasions followed the Killion method to a T. Amazing = results! =20 Aaron Morris - thinking read the book! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:12:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <20051129000429.39608.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Chuck writes: > To the point: I want a queenright hive ASAP! Its as > simple > as that! The fastest, surest, ASAP worry free way I know of is to slip a nuc with laying queen into the colony. Also, you might save time here using nucs by not having to schedule a visit to check for acceptance, and then another for how she is performing. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:32:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C1029@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aaron and Chuck: Aaron is so right and just also another reason to ketch those free swarms and throw them into a queenless hive for fast local requeening. For swarms are geared to honey and brooding FAST! Also, you help the locals, thus giving good service to the community that then hopefully responds in kind.... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 22:56:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, First let me say we are talking about a commercial beekeeper not wanting to pay $10 mated queen but rather a buck or two a piece for ripe queen cells(or use cells made yourself in my case). The beekeeper is wanting to control swarming, build up colonies *without* losing the 15 days talked about in this discussion AND end up with a *new* queen going into the honey flow. The procedure is similar to a two queen system which I have written about before on BEE-L. The "cell" method many commercial beekeepers use is called requeening without dequeening and works quite well. A second cell method is requeening by finding the queen but involves 40% of extra labor( from tests run in New Zealand on a large number of hives in the 70's). Both methods never lose a single day of queen not laying. Caged queens do not work as well with the above systems. The cells I use are raised by the Doolittle method with strong starter & Finnish colonies. The queens I use for my cells are II breeder queens of the desired race and the drone source are the drones of the yard.One reason why I do not mix my races in yards. The cells are candled before installation. I buy caged mated queens for experiments I have written about. Queen cells from queen breeders are impractical for me because of distance. Commercial beekeepers only (for the most part) use cells they can drive a short drive and PICK UP. Cells are the most common form of splitting and requeening in many commercial circles. Especially in South Texas in spring. Less equipment and labor (eliminates the mating nuc). If we did commercial beekeeping like the bee books said we would never get the work done! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:21:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <003401c5f4a1$51d431a0$20bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-460451D4 > The "cell" method many commercial beekeepers use is called requeening >without dequeening... >A second cell method is requeening by finding the queen.... >Both methods never lose a single day of queen not laying. I am assuming you are inserting a cell into the top combs of the colony, and there it acts like a supercedure cell. I do this often with the extra cells I have. Seems to work OK. The second method...you are removing the old queen, and giving a cell? Maybe I misunderstand, but how do you not lose a single day of queen not laying with this scenario? I could see this if you separated the broodnest with a solid inner cover, left the old queen below, and requeened the top chamber with a cell. The two units are united at a later date, after removing the old queen. You mention your procedure being similar to a two queen system. So, is that how you remove the old queen, and requeen with a cell, avoiding a time where no queen is laying? > Caged queens do not work as well with the above systems. By dividing the colony as I state above, you wind up with a 10 frame nuc above the inner cover...escape hole closed. The top unit has its own entrance. The old bees fly back to bottom entrance leaving only young bees above, which almost always will accept a caged queen....90 some %. Results with a caged queen recently pulled from a mating nuc will be near 100%. No jet lag. :-) > The cells are candled before >installation. How do you candle cells? Indoors in the dark? In the cab of your truck, or in the field? What do you use for a light source. Would love a lesson on this. Could you tell how? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/184 - Release Date: 11/27/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:54:34 -0000 Reply-To: Phil Moore Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Phil Moore Subject: Re: *** SPAM *** Re: [BEE-L] requeening: cell vs mated queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The "cell" method many commercial beekeepers use is called requeening > without dequeening and works quite well. > > A second cell method is requeening by finding the queen but involves 40% > of > extra labor( from tests run in New Zealand on a large number of hives in > the 70's). > > Both methods never lose a single day of queen not laying. > Bob is it possible to give more details on these methods or point to where details can be found? Regards Phil Moore -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:22:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Missing the Point with AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All, I think my recent post on the spread of AHB was slightly misunderstood. Bill Truesdell refers to himself as a positive nay sayer and disagrees with my assessment of the risk. I very much respect Bill's opinion based on his many posts over the years. But I disagree with the statement that northern beekeepers are cowering from the problem. Anyone that has kept bees for a while has experienced a hot colony for any number of reasons. I am not worried about beekeepers being afraid. It is negative media, fueled public that really scares me. I consider myself very fortunate to have the locations I do for my yards. But I would lose every one if there was a "THREAT OF KILLER BEES". One is at a wildlife sanctuary open to the public, where buses of school children parade near my colonies each spring. We also have an observation hive set up and have never had a stinging incident. I also keep bees at Rodale's (Organic Gardening, Prevention Magazines) organic research farm. The bees are part of the education tours. Possibly they could be moved to a more remote area, be we then lose the opportunity to demonstrate the value of honeybees in educating the public. Bill also mentioned that the Southerners are dealing with the problem. I agree, but as I noted the population densities are quite different in the South and West. I have a beekeeping friend from South America. He kept AHBs. He also spent a good some of money paying for a few hundred dead chickens that were killed by bees and it was never confirmed that they were actually his bees. But if you really want to see the impact it has had on the public, just open the Phoenix Yellow Pages. The pages are full of ads for "KILLER BEE SWARM REMOVAL". Actually, some beekeepers are making good money because of AHB. In 1998 I received a call from the Phoenix site of the company I work for. At the time I was the regional safety manager and this was one of my sites. A swarm landed right in the middle of the parking lot on the ground. The site manager remembered I kept bees so he gave me a call. I told him to call a local beekeeper. He did and one arrived to capture the swarm. The beekeeper did pretty much what I told the manager he would do. He put a box on the ground and left the bees march in. He did do something I did not expect. He said something about AHB and charged the facility $175 for his 20 minute service. Getting back to my point. The fear of AHB. If you have never been part of a product liability lawsuit consider yourself blessed. It could go something like this. Mr./Ms. Beekeeper, were you aware the bees in your colony that stung and killed my client's dog were Killer Bees? No, but we don't refer to them as... Thank you. Your colony of bees that killed my client's dog is headed up by a queen, correct? Yes, but I am not certain it was my... Thank you. Where did you get this queen? >From a reputable queen breeder! Where is this breeder located? Florida. And is not true that bees in Florida have been confirmed to be Killer Bees? Yes but wait they are not..... Thank you. Isn't it true that killer bees would probably not travel this far north on their own accord? Yes, but wait they are not.... Thank you. Just so we have this straight. You admit that you knowingly purchased a queen from an area known to have killer bees and placed it in your colony in an area where killer bees should not exist. And this said colony then attack and killed my client's prize pooch. Why would you do such a thing? Well, er, wait, I don't; they said if we tried to stop the spread of AHB it would hurt beekeepers. Ok cut the theatrics, but do you see my point. This can happen and anyone doesn't think this is possible, give me a call I am sure I have something for sale you need. Common sense and reason disappear during a lawsuit. All I am saying is we need to at least attempt to stop this, rather than just accept it. I don't want to beat a dead horse and I will probably shut up on this for a while. If AHB does claim the entire US, I truly hope I am wrong and the situations I described will be nothing more than the ranting of an old beekeeper. Wait a minute I am not that old. Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, PA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:59:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Researchers Prove Honeybees Can Fly! In-Reply-To: <20051126183341.32427.qmail@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aeronautical engineers had previously “proven” that bees cannot fly. So Michael Dickinson, an insect flight expert and colleagues at Caltech in Pasadena, California, US, decided to investigate the forces actually at work during honeybee flight. Combining robotic modelling with slow-motion videos of airborne honeybees may have helped researchers explain the curious aerodynamics of bee flight. See a video of a bee in a flap: http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/av/dn8382.avi Secrets of bee flight revealed http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8382 Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:02:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Rob Green Subject: Re: A. m. macedonica In-Reply-To: <200511220500.jAM50cma010011@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 11/22/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Aaron, I feel a liitle siily. >Google has been my home page since 1998, and I've given the same response as >you countless times. "Honeybee genetics" yields about 146,000 hits in fact, >no doubt esoterica-laden. Actually, it doesn't. It turns up 125 hits. and "honey bee genetics" turns up 180 more. You're not entering "honeybee genetics" you're entering honeybee genetics without the quotes, so every page with honeybee or genetics is showing as a hit. It's a common mistake. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:13:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- "Bogansky,Ronald J." wrote: > Mr./Ms. Beekeeper, were you aware the bees in your colony that stung > and killed my client's dog were Killer Bees? > No, but we don't refer to them as... I'm not a lawyer but seems as if the scenerio Ron presents didn't have one either, or at least a good one. Immediately after the first statement "Mr./Ms. Beekeeper, were you aware the bees in your colony that stung and killed my lient's dog were Killer Bees?" there should have been an objection by the defense attorney. Grounds? Have they proved that the bees, in fact, were sourced from the alledged colony. Just to throw a little harrum-scarrum into the fray. Mike from lower Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:37:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Michael & All, >I am assuming you are inserting a cell into the top combs of the colony, and there it acts like a supercedure cell. No >second method...you are removing the old queen, and giving a cell? No > but how do you not lose a single day of queen not laying with this scenario? You leave the old queen laying while the new queen flies and mates. >I could see this if you separated the broodnest with a solid inner cover, left the old queen below, and requeened the top chamber with a cell. This is textbook but not my method. I leave the old queen up. cell down. Different mix of comb than textbook. >The two units are united at a later date, after removing the old queen. Why remove the old queen? In the New Zealand study 95% of the young queens survived in the first study and 92% in the second. >You mention your procedure being similar to a two queen system. My system was found by doing the opposite of what our researchers advised. When the New Zealand research came along in the 70's I realized they were doing the same thing. Lets see: The textbooks say bees move upward (but in the feral hive they move down). Tests run by me found 50% went both up and down. In fact in one bunch of tests I ran 65% went down! >By dividing the colony as I state above, Your method is textbook. What most commercial beekeepers use doing cells. In all the books. Mine is the exactly opposite order cell down. old queen up. Plus a few secrets learned from experience along the way. You are a smart beekeeper Michael as is the other beekeeper which asked. You will have no trouble figuring out my system. Most commercial beekeepers using cells do as Michael said (mainly because that's what some researcher has said to do). >which almost always will accept a caged queen....90 some %. About the same percent as with cells (if you candle your cells). Labor has always been the big cost factor in beekeeping. Being able to work fast through production hives gives me extra time to spend with the research hives which can take the whole day. The successful beekeeper is always thinking about the bees in his care. Once the beekeeper gets sidetracked for whatever reason and forgets his bees for a period of time then is when your troubles begin. My advise many times to commercial beekeepers is not to get so involved with extracting honey, bottling or pollination contracts you forget about the rest of your hives. The hives are your bread and butter. They come first to be successful. Strong healthy hives come first. The rest comes second! Careful planning and timing are the keys to beekeeping success and procrastination has ended the commercial beekeeping business of many. >How do you candle cells? In the dark with a bright light right before hatching. I actually have got a box with a small hole with the light inside. If the head does not bob then the queen cell hits the trash can. I raised exotic birds for years and became very adapt at candling eggs. My incubator cycles at two tenths of a degree of heat and when not used for queen rearing can hatch the most exotic fowl eggs there are. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:43:26 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?B?S29tcHBhLVNlcHDkbOQ=?= Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] requeening: cell vs mated queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nice discussion about cells. I have been putting cells both up and down in the hive, but have not yet figured out which one is the best way Also last summer started to do candling. As non native english speaker I would like to hear more delats about this >If the head does not bob then the queen cell hits the trash can So does this mean that cell is ok if the pupa with dark head moves up and down in the cell when the cell is turned up / down ? Or Bob are you looking for the spontanious movement of just the queens head ? I am 97 % sure that it's the first, but curious to be sure. Ari Seppälä Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:23:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Beekeeperc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With DNA testing they can tell which hive the bees came from.....................norm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 08:57:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Requeening Vs Mated queen. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seems like I remember something about a queenless colony not foraging. = Does this play in here at all? Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:45:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <001a01c5f55f$76ef0000$25bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-731C7466 > Why remove the old queen? In the New Zealand study 95% of the young queens >survived in the first study and 92% in the second. Can you provide the link? I'd like to read the study. > >About the same percent as with cells (if you candle your cells). And, how would you make use of queens from the mating nucs? I actually have got a >box with a small hole with the light inside. What size is the box, hole, light bulb. >If the head does not bob then >the queen cell hits the trash can. She moves because of the light, or because you are handling the cell? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/184 - Release Date: 11/27/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:53:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] requeening: cell vs mated queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ari & All, Ari said: >Also last summer started to do candling. Why did you start as I have never seen candling ever recommended in a beekeeping book? I used the method all the time with my bird & waterfowl eggs. Why not queen cells I thought! I am looking for any sign of life. On the last day before emergence some movement should be detected when exposed to light. Candling can *in my opinion* cause a faster emergence. >So does this mean that cell is ok if the pupa with dark head moves up and down in the cell when the cell is turned up / down ? Has been my experience. Candling is not perfect with queen cells or fowl eggs but will help raise your success percents. When I first started candling fowl eggs in the early days I was not sure what I was looking at but then after awhile I was fast and very accurate. I am glad you posted. Many times the people on the list think my ideas are a bit crazy unless another comes on to post they use the same method with success. You do think the effort is worth the time don't you Ari? I handle all cells very gently as I am sure Ari does. Do others on the list candle cells? Have others heard of the candling of queen cells around the world? Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:30:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB (and getting sued for it) In-Reply-To: <20051130001350.27928.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, you can get sued for any stinging incident, AHB or not. However, it gets more difficult for a plaintiff to go much from there unless the beekeeper is shown to be grossly negligent. That usually comes from his/her beekeeping practices. Which was my point. I did exaggerate with the cowering appellation, so, for that, I cower in abject humility :) There have been several BeeL threads on the legal problems associated with stinging incidents. There also have been many excellent articles in Gleanings. Plus, there is lots on the web. The beekeeper is actually fairly protected by the law if they practice good beekeeping. My guess is, if AHB gets a foothold in an area, it would be more difficult to sue a responsible beekeeper since now there would be more science on their side. Plus, AHB would always be blamed. In Maine, many of the stinging incidents are by yellow jackets but "bees" are identified as the culprit. The only time I had a problem with my bees was when I let them clean out supers in the fall. I was told that was how to clean them out before storage. I did not realize my bees would be all over the neighborhood looking for other "nectar" sources. They kept a neighbor in her house. They were buzzing around her door (about 800 feet away from the colonies) and frightened her. That was many years ago and I have never allowed them to clean out fall supers since. That was bad beekeeping, and I was a bad neighbor. Not to mention the bad advice I got from "experienced" beekeepers. Bill Truesdell (now a certified experienced beekeeper therefore qualified to give bad advice) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:18:13 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <001001c5f5ad$18d22620$0abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob & all > Do others on the list candle cells? Have others heard of > the candling of queen cells around the world? I have heard of it, but I have never practised it... I have always reckoned to handle queen cells as little as possible. Earlier emergence is a possibility as the removal of the cell from the hive (and it's micro climate) could speed up the ingress of oxygen that happens through the 'bronzing' or thinning of the tip. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:48:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <001001c5f5ad$18d22620$0abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-41B0644D At 07:53 AM 11/30/2005, you wrote: >Do others on the list candle cells? Have others heard of the candling of >queen cells around the world? I pretty much consider it a must. A couple seconds checking each cell before heading out to place them in hives or nucs saves lots of time in the long run (two wasted trips to the hive to place the cell and check on the queen after mating, plus the extended period of time the hive will go without a queen.) Plus you can do some weeding out of undersized queens if you have extra cells. Bigger cells doesn't always mean bigger or better queens, I've seen many that just have extra uneaten jelly, or where the larva has fallen (eventually dying) and the workers have extended the cell. -Tim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/188 - Release Date: 11/29/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 07:12:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB (and getting sued for it) In-Reply-To: <438DA967.7000008@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell writes:I let them clean out supers in the fall. I was told that was how to clean them out before storage. Reply: Why? We were taught that leaving them wet if stored was better, and to also freeze first and then stack, taping any open cracks up. Bees in spring would then take to them faster and initiate better brooding up when placed back upon. But then now, we don't store supers anymore, having changed long time practices, and gone to clean sustainable beekeeping using small cell. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:27:10 -0500 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB (and getting sued for it) In-Reply-To: <20051130151203.6068.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee A. Lusby wrote: "...we don't store supers anymore, having changed long time practices, and gone to clean sustainable beekeeping using small cell." What do you do as opposed to storing supers? I can't make the connection between "clean sustainable beekeeping using small cell" and not storing empty supers over the cold winter so that the bees have less of an area to keep warm. Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:38:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: European Working Group -- Small Cells European Working Group for Integrated Varroa Control excerpt: Experiments with small cell sizes There was a considerable range of discussion on the topic of small cell sizes. Concern was expressed that beekeepers were turning to this (indeed there is already small cell size foundation available on the market) as a potential aid to varroa control before any substantial data has been produced to support it. It was suggested that as work so far was inconclusive, published work should be regulated until firm conclusions had been reached, to prevent any misunderstanding within the beekeeper community. One of the problems indentified was that as proven treatments are lost through resistance [to varroa] there is a temptation to use new treatments before they are shown to have good efficacy. --- I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:55:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit glass_isis@YAHOO.COM submitted an excerpt from European Working Group for Integrated Varroa Control Could you provide an url to the entire article for all interested? Sincere thanks, Aaron Morris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:58:03 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Candling queen cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do others on the list candle cells? Have others heard of the candling of > queen cells around the world? I do it all the time. I learnt the trick while visiting Homer Park in 1986. I have passed it on to other queen breeders in Australia. I am not looking for the movement but the shape of the pupae. After a while you get to tell the "normal" shape of the pupae. Sometimes you break down a good cell but that is a small price to pay to make sure that the cells you put out look OK. Usually if it is defective it is a "blob" in the bottom of the cell. Sometimes they look strange. A couple of times, there have been queens upside down in the cell i.e. head up towards the plastic end of the cell. We use plastic cell cups. How many would I break down cells? Less than 1%. Do I miss some? Yes, as when catching queens from the mating nucs, occasionally there is a cell that has not hatched. In most of these cases, the pupae looks OK and is at a stage where I estimate it should be hatching. Why this happens I do not know. Martin Braunstein from Argentina has a good DVD out on his queen rearing operation and in that you will see him candling the cells. He actually goes one step further and taps the cell. The DVD is available for purchase. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:04:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: storing supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dee said "But then now, we don't store supers anymore, having changed long time practices, " What do you do instead of storing supers? If you put them back on the hives, do you use excluders? I put my supers, wet, on pallets with a tarp on top (the tarps have elastic edges and square corners and are made for this purpose) and then wrap with shrink wrap. I'd love to find a way to 'store' the supers on the hives but I thought that was impossible! Regards, Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:40:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jo=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E3o?= Campos Subject: Swarming in two-queen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison: > The procedure is similar to a two queen > system which I have written about before on BEE-L. Bob, I searched the archives and found out that you have done many experiments on two-queen hives (TQH). I've never paid much attention to that technique, until recently, when I read in Free's book (Pheromones...) that swarming is less likely to happen in TQHs. As you know, swarming is of great concern for us - AHBkeepers, and I've been pondering about give TQH a try. I could find several papers on that, but no clear statements about swarming. Of course, our conditions are very different, but have you ever noted a reduced swarming tendency in TQHs? João Campos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:07:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Requeening Vs Mated queen. In-Reply-To: <00a401c5f4ec$eacc3d80$a01f9440@drivec> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2D7C47EB > ...queenless colony not foraging... Not foraging for pollen, most likely. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/186 - Release Date: 11/29/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:14:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: storing supers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 30, 2005, at 1:04 PM, Lloyd Spear wrote: > > What do you do instead of storing supers? If you put them back on the > hives, do you use excluders? Hi Lloyd and all Following advice from New Zealand(AFB Elimination Manual), I put my extracted supers back on the hives they came from(obviously a small beekeeper). During the honey flow they stay on the hives. At the end of the season, after the bees have had time to clean them out, I stack them in the bee yard for the winter. I always use queen excluders(thus no brood in honey supers) so that wax moths are not a problem. The honey Judge at a recent meeting of the Dufferin Beekeepers Association gave as his reason, for not storing supers wet, that the crystallized honey in the supers would lead to early crystallization of next years crop. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:32:55 -0500 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: storing supers In-Reply-To: <83AB251A-90C3-401D-99FD-B2A1C6A46287@interlog.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Darrell wrote: "At the end of the season, after the bees have had time to clean them out, I stack them in the bee yard for the winter. I always use queen excluders(thus no brood in honey supers) so that wax moths are not a problem." When is the end of your season? I extract in July after the main spring nectar flow is over, returning the supers to the bees to be cleaned out. However, if I leave them on until the "end of the season" (some time in September for me), I may end up with partially filled, partially capped supers, not clean,empty supers to be stored. And this may be honey that should have been stored in the bottom two deeps. I find that I have to take them off as soon as the bees have cleaned them out. And how does the use of a queen excluder eliminate the wax moth problem? Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:32:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John Wilkinson Subject: Storing supers Hi, I store "bee cleaned," dry supers indoors for the winter,I also place sheets of newspaper between each super, apparently the smell of printers ink deters the wax moth!. I only made the mistake of storing wet supers with through ventilation once.The result was growth of fungus, so bad that I ended up rewaxing all the frames. John Wilkinson Lancashire UK -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:40:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Storing supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "for not storing supers wet, that the crystallized honey in the supers would lead to early crystallization of next years crop." I've heard that before, but I think its nuts. Just passed down from person to person because it sounds kind of logical. My observations: 1. From time to time I've stored almost entire frames of Aster that have become crystalized. Put them right on the hive, and when harvested they ar= e full of nice liquid honey. 2. Spring honey, around here, is largely from trees and bushes and is slow to crystalize. In fact, in 20 years of storing wet supers I've never had a frame of spring honey crystalize. As to crystalizing in the barrell...who knows the effect of the left over honey in the frames it came from? Just about any honey will crystalize if left long and cold enough. I like storing supers wet because when I use excluders the wet supers seem to pull the bees through faster. With the emphasis on 'seem to'. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:43:04 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: storing supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: I'd love to find a way to 'store' the supers on the hives but I thought that was impossible! I leave mine on the hives - I have nowhere else to store them! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:44:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: storing supers In-Reply-To: <83AB251A-90C3-401D-99FD-B2A1C6A46287@interlog.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dee Lusby wrote: > Why? We were taught that leaving them wet if stored was > better, and to also freeze first and then stack, taping any > open cracks up. I spoke about what I was taught when I started beekeeping. Some still do allow their bees to clean out the supers in the open. I no longer do. I now do just what you posted, but not in that order. In July/August I extract the summer honey and put the extracted supers back on the hive over the inner cover. When I extract in September, I stack the supers in my barn and make sure no holes are available for robbing (duct tape works well). Since we get a good freeze in late September, there is little worry about wax moth, also they are honey supers with no brood cells, the real attractor for wax moths. bob darrell wrote: > The honey Judge at a recent meeting of the Dufferin > Beekeepers Association gave as his reason, for not storing supers > wet, that the crystallized honey in the supers would lead to early > crystallization of next years crop. I have never had a problem with crystallization of the crop I take of in the summer having started with last year's wet supers. Summer honey in our area keeps for a year or more without crystallization, but fall honey will be solid in a couple of months. (I did some tests just to see how long each would last.) My guess is that it is not the wet super but fall honey. For those who may be confused about my recent tag line "now a certified experienced beekeeper therefore qualified to give bad advice" I am not a Master Beekeeper. Just certified :) Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:12:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: storing supers In-Reply-To: <83AB251A-90C3-401D-99FD-B2A1C6A46287@interlog.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5DC72629 > the crystallized honey in the supers would lead to early >crystallization of next years crop. I wonder. I can't speak for all climates, only for my small corner of the Northeast. I store supers wet. Maybe I should say sticky. In the spring when I'm ready to put them back on the bees...that's wet! The remaining honey has absorbed so much moisture from the air, that the honey left on the combs is practically runny. I would think that with all that moisture, the crystals would dissolve. And, I don't have a crystallization problem the following year. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/186 - Release Date: 11/29/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:57:51 +0000 Reply-To: pencaemawr@ntlworld.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pencaemawr Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <200511301738.jAUHGr2b025464@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isis Glass wrote: > European Working Group for Integrated Varroa Control > A related website is http://www.neurobiologie.fu-berlin.de/menzel/rademacher.html which amongst other items contains a virtual atlas of the honeybee brain. John Burgess -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:28:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells A Scandinavian study reported in the September 2005 issue of Bee Culture, in the article "Commercial Beekeeping in Norway" by HansOtto Johnsen tested 20 colonies with 5.4mm cell size against 20 with 4.9mm in the same apiary. At the end of the test the small cell group had significantly fewer varroa mites and produced significantly more honey. On the other hand a study carried out by Hort Research for the South Canterbury branch of the New Zealand National Beekeepers' Association, using four different cell sizes (4.7, 4.8, 5.1 and 5.4mm) reported in the Scottish Beekeeper September 2005, concluded that: "Varroa reproduction was not affected by cell size ..." and "these results suggest cells smaller than 5.4mm may actually increase [varroa] infestation." Interestingly this study measured the actual sizes of built-out cells, which turned out to be not necessarily the same as the cell size of the foundation supplied to the bees. www.beedata.com/apis-uk/newsletters05/apis-uk0905.htm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:01:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells >Could you provide an url to the entire article for all interested? www.apis.admin.ch/host/doc/pdfvarroa/ruischholzhausen.pdf I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:10:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Storing supers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 30, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Lloyd Spear wrote: > "for not storing supers > wet, that the crystallized honey in the supers would lead to early > crystallization of next years crop." > > I've heard that before, but I think its nuts. Just passed down > from person > to person because it sounds kind of logical. > Hi Lloyd The speaker at our meeting was giving tips on how to prepare honey for show. He is responsible for judging the honey entries at the Royal Agricultural Winter Fair in Toronto where the competition is fierce and one crystal could mean second place. My honey is mostly crystallized when it is sold. I don't use heat. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:15:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: storing supers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd writes: What do you do instead of storing supers? If you put them back on the hives, do you use excluders? reply: We put them back on the hives as they are interchangeable supers anyway, whether for broodboxes or supers for crop. No we don't use excluders on hives, though they do make good barbeque grills I hear. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:46:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:28:02 -0500, Isis Glass wrote: >A Scandinavian study reported in the September 2005 issue of Bee Culture I just want to apologize for posting this reference. I haven't been reading ALL the posts lately. If I had, I would have known the study had been discredited. I hope someone, in New Zealand perhaps, can supply more information on the small cell tests done there. I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:18:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <001001c5f5ad$18d22620$0abc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Guys, >Do others on the list candle cells? I did, initially, when I produced them commercially. The process was very easy and fast as I used JZ BZ plastic queen cups. A quick look while inserting them in a cell protector was all that was needed. The cells should be kept in a natural(vertical) position and gently rocked from side to side. A viable queen will rock inside the cell. I kept track of the failures. It was always somewhat less than a dozen sealed cells per thousand. Acceptance rates for sealed cells, placed above the broodnest , through mating and laying, were generally much better than my acceptance rates for introducing mated queens. Occasionally, some kinds of bees would accept introduced queens better than they would cells. And some kinds of bees were notoriously bad at accepting either, with acceptance rates around 40%. Overall average acceptance percentages for thousands of cell introductions, at the top, through several years, was always in the high 80's. The best were in the mid 90's. The top method was used as it was the fastest and easiest to use on a commercial scale. A top super could be tipped back and a cell with protector inserted between the frames. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:23:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: U.S. beekeeping indusry update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Each fall for years I have shared what is reported to me about the state of the commercial beekeeping industry around this time of year. I am a few weeks late this year but wanted to hear from Australia and California before sharing. Many reports of beekeepers losing all their hives. Not sure why. (source hive placement service in California & Australian package people taking package pallet orders). Many reports of very large commercial beekeepers which have went to almonds for years staying home because of bees in poor shape ( report from beekeeper wintering in Carthage, Texas). Australian pallets of package bees booked now for all dates from now into February (source a phone call from the Sidney airport from an Australian package producer tonight). I would still try to place an order or put my name on a cancellation list. Beekeepers are starting to place package orders for fall 2006 & spring 2007. The almond crop insurance providers are not giving crop insurance I have been told unless the grower can provide a signed contract from a beekeeper of two hives per acre( source Australia and several commercial beekeepers). Another year of hive shortage in almonds (source almond placement service). After the January conventions I should be better able to provide better information on the deadout problems. Many hives headed to almonds are buried in the snow drifts in North Dakota. Those beekeepers say they were waiting to see the condition of their bees before ordering packages. If you snooze you lose! Bell Honey of Florida saved the industry last year by selling around 100,000 hives for almond pollination. Those hives are gone now and Horace Bell is most likely deep sea fishing, hunting or relaxing in his RV.. Our paths will cross in January like they have for years and I will find out hopefully the state of the Florida beekeeping industry. Jerry Hayes (Florida Inspection service) has wanted me to stop by his office the last three trips I have made to Florida but I never seemed to find the time. I plan on making stopping by a priority in January. Jerry offered me a job with the Florida inspection service this year which I pondered for a long time but declined. I am totally devoted to the U.S. beekeeping industry and if I had been a decade younger most likely would have went to help Jerry out. A few new players are coming on the almond scene such as Brent Barkman from Kansas. His outfit was almost wiped out last year but he rebuilt all summer instead of making honey and is ready for California I am told (source Bullseye Bill from Kansas). Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:04:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <200512010046.jB10W5S4029045@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: I just want to apologize for posting this reference. I haven't been reading ALL the posts lately. If I had, I would have known the study had been discredited. Reply: I am not sorry for you posting this reference. Also the study has NOT been discredited, though some may want you to feel this way. More reports will be coming I and others have been told that are even better then this one. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:17:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: storing supers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Lloyd Spear wrote: > I put my supers, wet, on pallets with a tarp on top (the tarps have elastic > edges and square corners and are made for this purpose) and then wrap with > shrink wrap. > > Lloyd Lloyd, What about small hive beetle control. If we did that down here, when we opened the package up we would have a mass of goo at the bottom of the supers and no comb. Mike Located in lower Alabama __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. 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