From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 28 09:36:28 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Delivered-To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Received: from listserv.albany.edu (unknown [169.226.1.24]) by metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3A5148739 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n1SEFvLK013111 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:35:36 -0500 From: "University at Albany LISTSERV Server (14.5)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0512" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Message-ID: Content-Length: 535094 Lines: 12185 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 06:56:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aleksandar Mihajlovski Subject: requeening: cell vs mated queen We use that technique You named "bee candling" because it is recommended in our (Slavic languages) bee literature. The advice we follow is to take the ripe queen cell gently, not to turn it around, and to rise it towards the sun (not right on the sun, of course). I personally have always been able to identify live queen inside when looking against the sun. Rough look is: how much of queen cell inside space is occupied by queen pupae. It is first time that I had heard from Bob about the queen head. For transfers/transports of queen cells the best is polystyrene used for packing laboratory test tubes. Aleksandar Mihajlovski Macedonian beekeeping journal: "Melitagora" -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:35:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells Comments: To: Dee Lusby >I am not sorry for you posting this reference. Also the >study has NOT been discredited, though some may want you to >feel this way. More reports will be coming I and others >have been told that are even better then this one. Yes, well I made up my own mind about the quality of the work. But even if Johnsen hadn't skewed the data by leaving out the rest of the results, his results weren't so great now, were they? * Large cell group: An alcohol wash in Autumn during broodless period revealed 29% mites per 100 bees, the range was 3-64%. * Small cell group: An alcohol wash in Autumn during broodless period revealed 14% mites per 100 bees, the range was 3-26%. 14% mites in Autumn is probably high enough to kill the hives over winter. They have real winter in Norway, not Arizona winter. I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:14:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Storing supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This has been an interesting thread and once again emphasizes that 'all beekeeping is local'. It just never occured to me that a large beekeeping operation such as Dee's might put wet supers back on hives when no flow was anticipated for several months. Of course, I am used to 6 months without a flow and extreme cold and I am certain those conditions do not apply to Dee's operation. We also frequently (every year?) have a long summer period where there is little to no flow and the bees will take honey from supers for themselves and brood and, without excluders, the queen will make use of that space to produce brood. Given the length of the brood cycle, that would lead to man= y frames with partial brood. Of course, if we practiced beekeeping as in the UK we would be smart enough to take our honey frame by frame, rather than entire supers at a time. That would let us leave frames with brood behind, but make it impractical to run several hundred hives with one person. I also never thought about SHB's and wet supers in storage. Like others wh= o contributed to this thread, in this part of the world wax moth is only a minor pest (because of our long cold winters) and in any case using excluders severely limits the attractiveness of the combs. But apparently this is not true with SHB. I was not aware that they were after nectar, an= d would have thought that they were principally after the protein in the larvae cocoons, the larvae themselves, and pollen. Sure glad I don't live in Alabama! Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:56:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: The lighter side of Requeening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-51CE185E But Master, why must I be patient? I can buy queens from the South, two months earlier than I can raise them here in the North. The queens aren't too bad, though they do suffer from Chalkbrood, Tracheal Mites, and Dysentery. And Master, you always said that the early bird gets the worm. "Yes Grasshopper," said Master, grinning from ear to ear. "The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese." Have a fine December morning. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/189 - Release Date: 11/30/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:59:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <200512011156.jB1BUF5H000096@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-601A181A At 06:56 AM 12/1/2005, you wrote: >For transfers/transports of queen cells the best is polystyrene used for >packing laboratory test tubes. For lack of anything else handy, I've taken a piece of 2" thick polystyrene insulation (available at hardware stores in 4'x8' sheets) and melted holes with a bolt of the right size heated with a torch. Doesn't look as nice as the molded ones, but it works well. -Tim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/189 - Release Date: 11/30/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:32:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: ESHPA Fall Meeting Comments: To: nys-bees@listserv.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry for the short notice, I should have posted this weeks ago. The Empire State Honey Producers Association is holding their fall meeting tomorrow and Saturday in Syracuse, NY. Full details are available at: http://www.ESHPA.org Of note are two presentations that have been topics of recent discussion on BEE-L. Friday, 10:00 AM - FUNGAL PATHOGENS OF INSECTS - AN ALTERNATIVE TO CHEMICALS OR BIO-WARFARE ON VARROA Mike Griggs, Entomologist/Support Scientist Plant Protection Unit, USDA ARS, U.S. Plant, Soil Nutrition Lab. And Saturday, 10:15 AM - MECHANISMS OF RESISTANCE AGAINST FLUVALINATE IN VARROA DESTRUCTOR Zachary Huang, Professor, Dept. of Entomology Michigan State University Other noteables on the program include Dr. Nicholas Calderone, Dr. Marion Ellis, Kim Flottum, Dr. Thomas Seeley and Jack Thomas. For early arrivals, I'm buying first round after the Board meeting tonight. Cheers, Aaron Morris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:47:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, I have spent hours pouring over my notes from the 70's and old publications trying to find the study. I was about to give up when I found what I was looking for. Roger Morse and others refer to the study in several articles but never name the study. You will have to search the net to see if you can turn the study up. >Can you provide the link? I'd like to read the study. Actual study: New Zealand Journal of Agriculture Research ,vol.15 no. 2, May 1972 (413-9) Publication about the study: Department of Agriculture, New Zealand, Wallaceville Animal Research Center. Publication no.330 If you find a link send to me if you would Michael. I will be very busy the next four days or would look for myself. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:44:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: ESHPA Fall Meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 Aaron Morris wrote: "The Empire State Honey Producers Association is holding their fall meeting tomorrow and Saturday in Syracuse, NY..... Full details are available at: http://www.ESHPA.org" Hello to Aaron and all, Every year the ESHPA has a Fall Meeting, and every year they invite some of the most noteworthy and timely speakers available. I certainly wish that I could be there! Short of that desire coming to fruition, I wish that meetings of this caliber could be broadcast all over the World via the Internet. Are you listening Kim? The technology has been around for quite a while; and, I certainly would not mind paying a reasonable fee to sit here in my own chair to see and hear what such marvelous minds have to say. There is a lot of information that is being given only to a relatively small amount of the entire industry; I for one would encourage major beekeeping organizations all over the World to begin teleconferencing and/or televising their meetings over the Internet either free or for a fee. Think about the folks all over the Planet Earth who would like to go to the EAS meeting in Georgia this summer but can not afford the expense. IMHO the benefits would be tremendous to all involved. Now if I could only figure out a way to have Aaron buy me that beer, drink it here and listen to all the bee tales told too! Cheers Aaron! Cheers to all! Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:55:20 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Storing supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: Of course, if we practiced beekeeping as in the UK we would be smart enough to take our honey frame by frame, rather than entire supers at a time. Lloyd Who have you been talking to??? I know of no-one who works that way in the UK - although there may be some older beekeepers who will shake and brush frames one at a time if they are unable to lift a full super. I would not class it as 'smart' as any brace comb will get broken and you end up with honey dripping everywhere - and at the end of the season that, together with the time it all takes, is a wonderful way to start robbing. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:38:43 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ron wrote: >>I also keep bees at Rodale's (Organic Gardening, Prevention Magazines) organic research farm. So you are the man! My wife and I stopped at Rodale's on way back from a camping trip in Lancaster county 3 years ago. We saw Italian-looking honeybees collecting water from the small watergarden next to the visitor center... Very nice indeed. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:41:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen >>For transfers/transports of queen cells the best is polystyrene used for >>packing laboratory test tubes. Mature cells are not as fragile as all that. When I worked in northern California: they put candled the cells on the bar, and then lay the bar on its side. With one quick slice with a pocket knife, the cells were detached. These were laid on their sides in a padded box a little smaller than a lunch box, then covered with a tea cozy. I have used a lunch box with a jar of hot water under the padding and laid the cells on their sides in there. They shouldn't be taken to the nucs until the last day, anyway. By then they are starting to look like queens (not pupae). Earlier than that they might be damaged by such treatment, though maybe not. At some point they are going to make it no matter what. It is important that they be the right age. A cell producer can really screw you by selling cells that aren't ready. I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:48:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Bees Cannot Fly - promotion of a myth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All Michael does interesting work with insect flight and orientation. However, the statement by J Waggle that 'Aeonautical engineers had previously "proven" that bees cannot fly' is a myth. Bees don't fly like a fixed wing airplane, but they do fly in ways similar to a helicopter. Big issue is the energy required for take off - forward flight takes much less energy. Maybe some engineer at some time said this, but he/she didn't understand the flight dynamics. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:48:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen, correction correction! that should have read: > in California: they candled the cells on the bar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:52:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>"Mr./Ms. Beekeeper, were you aware the bees in your colony that stung and killed my lient's dog were Killer Bees?" The daughter of a beekeeping friend of mine is an attorney. According to him, there has not been a case where it was proven - assuming the stinging was by a honeybee to start with!! - that the bee(s) originated from a particular hive or apiary. A hive's proximity adds to the probability but is hardly evidence in the court of law to my knowledge. Having said this, it will be very hard to keep bees in suburbia where there have been cases of overly defensive honeybees killing pests or people. One can pursue it and face an insurrection. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:50:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Storing supers In-Reply-To: <000801c5f68f$a1e765a0$58772a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter & Lloyd I am not quite certain if I am talking about the same thing... > although there may be some older beekeepers who will shake > and brush frames one at a time if they are > unable to lift a full super. That is my reason for having done so much shaking and brushing of honey frames, but there is another reason... There are in UK a number of Polish and Slavic beekeepers that practice the removal of frames as and when they are capped, on a daily basis. They do this simply because it is a method they were used to using when they were in their homeland. I have seen it done, but would not say it was very common. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:16:09 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Storing supers In-Reply-To: <000801c5f68f$a1e765a0$58772a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <000801c5f68f$a1e765a0$58772a50@office>, Peter Edwards writes >I know of no-one who works that way in the UK Some of the continental (European) hives in sheds are managed so that each hive rolls back (like opening a drawer) inside the dark shed and any rear frames full of honey are removed and replaced with foundation or drawn comb. -- James Kilty -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:11:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Candling of Queen Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings to All, Since much time has recently been devoted to discussion of the candling of queen cells I thought that I would share the following. In Laidlaw, H. H. Jr., (1992) “Production of Queens and Package Bees” In: Graham, J. The Hive and the Honey Bee. Dadant and Sons, Hamilton, Illinois p. 1010 the following passage is given: “‘Ripe’ cells are sometimes ‘candled’ to identify those with non-living queens by tilting them in front of a lamp. Living queens will ‘rock’ in the cells. The unfolded wings of queens in queen cells less than 10 days old can be damaged by rough handling, but queens in older cells are less likely to suffer damage.” Cheers, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:37:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Storing supers To All, FWIW, since I have a number of drone mother hives, cell builders, cell finishers and breeder hives in yards all fairly close by while most of my honey production hives are spread out over a 200 mile span it is to my advantage to put my wet supers above a standard inner cover, not a Goble, and let the girls take down the lickings in these hives. After they have emptied the frames I will openly stack crisscrossed all my honey supers with drawn comb under day-lit open shelter with a tin roof until needed.- Plenty of light and air. I also use a bug zapper as a night light. I do not have problems with wax moths nor small hive beetles using this method; yet in the past I did the stack, paradichlorobenzene, and cover routine with often mixed results. I gained this method from a beekeeper with over 30 years experience and have consulted with others who have commercial operations and have confirmed this approach as one that is viable. My own adaptation of this method helps to supplement feeding of my queen operation between honey flows. Sincerely, Chuck Norton Norton's Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 21:04:21 +0000 Reply-To: pencaemawr@ntlworld.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pencaemawr Subject: Re: Storing supers In-Reply-To: <000801c5f68f$a1e765a0$58772a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Edwards wrote: > > Lloyd > Who have you been talking to??? > I know of no-one who works that way in the UK - Karl Showler, beekeeper in Wales and owner of B & K Books, concentrates on producing cut comb and removes frames as soon as the cells are sealed. This avoids soiling of the cappings which would otherwise occur. John Burgess -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:21:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: Bees Cannot Fly - promotion of a myth In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20051201104503.03fae860@mso.umt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:48 AM 12/1/05 -0700, you wrote: > >the statement by J Waggle that 'Aeonautical engineers had previously >"proven" that bees cannot fly' is a myth. It's bumblebees that can't fly- everyone knows that. George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:39:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: Re: Storing supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The comment of Mr Kilty in Britain confuses me, how does the hive roll = back? I reckon that he is responding to previous comments about supers = being stored whilst still moist with honey while others have reported = that they are storing supers after they are bee-cleaned. Kilty suggests = a 3rd method. However, I was unaware of wheeled hives being used in = Britain. Further.what has the illumination of the shed have to do with = the storage process? Could he be more explicit? Why does Mr. Kilty = store entire hives rather than just the used supers? Tell us how you do IT =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: James Kilty=20 To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu=20 Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Storing supers In message = <000801c5f68f$a1e765a0$58772a50@office>, Peter Edwards = > writes >I know of no-one who works that way in the UK Some of the continental (European) hives in sheds are managed so that each hive rolls back (like opening a drawer) inside the dark shed and any rear frames full of honey are removed and replaced with foundation or drawn comb. -- James Kilty -- Visit = www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for = rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis Glass wrote: >14% mites in Autumn is probably high enough to kill the hives over winter. In order to winter successfully the level should be much lower. Using the information below, Johnsen's number (14%) translates to 50 mites per 350. They say winter mortality will be 25% if the rate is 3 or 4 percent. > Varroa Mite Threshold Study Conducted in Pennsylvania by Dennis Van Engelsdorp and Jim Steinbauer. > Utilizing the Sugar Roll method of surveying if you wish to not lose over 10% of your hives during the winter you should treat if less than 4 mites show up in the sugar roll (about 350 bees). If you don’t want to lose over 20% then treat if between 4 and 12 mites show up. If you do not want to lose over 25% then treat if 13 or more mites show up. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:46:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Bees Cannot Fly - promotion of a myth In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20051201104503.03fae860@mso.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: > Michael does interesting work with insect flight and > orientation. However, > the statement by J Waggle that 'Aeonautical > engineers had previously > "proven" that bees cannot fly' is a myth. If I may correct you Jerry, that was a clip taken from the article and 'not a statement by me'. I usually provide a short clip to show others some of what is on the link, this helps them to decide if they want to read further or not. This is what they call a 'teaser' in the news biz. I have no opinion on weather bees can fly or not. ;>) Best Wishes, __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 00:03:23 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Not just Nosema apis.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Contrary to what some may think, Nosema apis is not there alone! A couple of weeks ago I started a little project by investigating which other Nosema species there migh be and finished up making the list (the first one of it's kind, I believe) that can now be found at: http://www.trollbi.se/enosema.htm Besides the species, other species specific data can also be seen, all for as far as I managed to date. Additions or corrections are welcome! Ron van Mierlo ron-eefje@tele2.se -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 18:19:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: D Thompson Subject: wet supers In-Reply-To: <200512010500.jB14qqiU013327@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While wet supers will draw the bees up thru the excluder there is a disadvantage beside thier stiky feel In the spring, after the honey is thiner the residue will ferment You can smell it when getting supers onto the truck It's not so bad with the first round, but by the end it's quite strong dave -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 21:30:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Boot polish MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, Would be most grateful if somebody could indicate a good method to make un-coloured boot/shoe polish based on beeswax. Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:33:40 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Bees Cannot Fly - promotion of a myth In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20051201162142.008ad8a0@pop.gwi.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT As I recall there was a T.V. program (Nova) some years back debunking that urban myth. I seem to remember it showing the Bumble Bee wings in slow motion flight along with the math explanations that were supposed to be in laymen's terms. Admittedly, those were still over my head. Interesting show however. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 20:58:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <200512012239.jB1LlwXb015319@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: 14% mites in Autumn is probably high enough to kill the hives over winter. Reply: Not to change the subject slightly (though Hans is finishing going to 1,000 colonies again for coming year), but why is 14% or more mites bad in Autumn? When in Autumn (time frame being looked at)as even I myself cannot relate to this........as I myself would want to see large numbers in new colonies looked at if in trouble first year regression, especially going into first fall? Why does large % scare you? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 11:21:27 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: tom wagner Subject: honey processing house Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; format=flowed
In the coming year I am planning on having a new building errected, part of this building will be used for my honey extraction area, currently I am running 60 hives but would like to expand to 100.  I have a silver queen uncapper, 33 frame extractor, sump tank an 4 vats an a 4x4 hot box, how much space do I need to alot to this operation, and what type of a layout to minimize steps to do the work most efficently? thanks tom wagner tomatsoe@hotmail.com
-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 11:42:34 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Boot polish MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon asked for recipes for shoe polish http://members.aol.com/oelaineo/formulas.html Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 07:35:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] requeening: cell vs mated queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do others on the list candle cells? Have others heard of the candling of > queen cells around the world? Bob, If you use the clear plastic cell cups you can usually see the pupa move with out an additional light source. Marc Studebaker -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 07:43:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Boot polish MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon asks: Would be most grateful if somebody could indicate a good method to make un-coloured boot/shoe polish based on beeswax. Peter, As a first attempt try 50% each of beeswax and liquid paraffin. These seems to be a good all - purpose mix that can be adapted for various purposes. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:13:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Boot polish In-Reply-To: <438FBFCA.6080601@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon wrote: > Would be most grateful if somebody could indicate a good method to make > un-coloured boot/shoe polish based on beeswax. You better be grateful since I scoured the house looking for my copy of Super Formulas by Elaine C. White. A wonderful present for beekeepers but who loves beekeepers enough to give them a present? Why should I go out of my way for someone? Spend an hour looking for it? Oh well, in keeping with the season: On page 46, Shoe Polish (which you can also use on wood! Or Beekeeper's foreheads, which is the same thing) 3 oz beeswax 1/2 oz carnauba wax 1/2 cup mineral spirits 1 tbl spoon soap 1/2 cup water Oil soluble aniline dye, or lamp black (if you want color) Melt the waxes in the microwave or double boiler (I love the caveats since most beekeepers will just melt it directly on the flame and burn the house down). Dissolve the soap in hot water. Dissolve the dye in turpentine. Remove the wax from heat and stir in the turpentine/dye mix. Stir in the soap/water mix. Stir until it cools (at least 108F) and pour into tins. Since you do not want color, my guess is you could skip the turpentine and dye, since it looks like the turpentine is only there to dissolve the dye. (Peter probably does not want dye since he is from the "Great White North". Those Canadians....Grumph) You will have to add something to make up for the lost liquid, so maybe just leave the turpentine or substitute mineral oil, which is odorless. Most polishes like this one are variations of the basic hand cream formula, which is 4.5 oz beeswax, one pint mineral oil, 1 tbl spoon borax, and 1 1/3 cups water. You dissolve the beeswax in the mineral oil (over heat) and dissolve the borax in hot water then pour the water mix into the wax mix and pour into jars. The borax, like the soap in the polish recipe is just to emulsify the wax in the water so you will have a uniform mix and it will not separate. There are lots of variations on this basic recipe- add lanolin, aloe, perfumes, color, whatever. Also change the amount of water to make a thicker or thinner cream. It is best plain, IMHO, and is the best lip balm and skin conditioner for winter in Maine. It will heal cracked skin on your fingers. You can also use it on shoes to make them fairly water resistant. Wife loves it on her face on a winery, cold windy day. It is amazing stuff. I get lots of requests for it, especially from people who have to have their hands in water. It stays while Vaseline Intensive Care and other lotions disappear. So, crawling back into the comfort of my Lazy boy in order to condition myself to the grueling number of football games I must watch this weekend (Beat Army!), I bid you a cheery Bah, humbug. Bill Truesdell (whom engineers also said could not fly, but seems to make it fine on United. Documentary to follow.) Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:50:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: wet supers In-Reply-To: <200512011819.58513.dthompson@nexusisp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D Thompson wrote: > In the spring, after the honey is thiner > the residue will ferment > You can smell I guess it all depends on where you are and how long the supers are off the hive. In Maine, they are stored in September and do not see the light of day until June (or late May for the optimists). That is over seven months. By then, they will be fairly "dry". Even in the freezing cold, the excess honey will sublimate and "dry" out. Especially if any fermentation took place, which I doubt happens up here. Needs to be warm for that. This thread has lots of information, all of it good but bad if you do things in the north that work in the south and vice versa. Which is the reason you always see where I am located from my signature line. Bill Truesdell McMurdo Sound, Antarctica -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 10:09:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Engelhardt Subject: Re: Boot polish In-Reply-To: <438FBFCA.6080601@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VALUE-ADDED PRODUCTS FROM BEEKEEPING by R. Krell (FAO AGRICULTURAL SERVICES BULLETIN No. 124) which is freely available as an electronic text for personal / educational use from http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e00.htm has the following two recipes for shoe polish in chapter 4. Where as I have not used either formula myself they may prove to be helpful to you Shoe polish, cream type Ingredients (in parts by weight) adapted from Minrath (1957): 4.3 Carnauba wax 3 Soap, flaked 3 Paraffin wax 50 Water or beeswax q.s. Water soluble 8.5 Turpentine Melt the two waxes in separate containers in a water bath and then slowly add the paraffin wax or beeswax to the carnauba wax. Remove from the heat. when this mixture has cooled down but not yet started to solidift, slowly add the turpentine. Dissolve the soap in the water, heat to boiling, then mix in the pigments and the wax-turpentine solution. Continue stirring until it is cool. To obtain the right shade of colour, the following equivalents may be added: Black - Acid Black, Brown - Bismarck Brown G, Red - Crocein Scarlet, Orange-Orange II, and Yellow - Metanil Yellow. Shoe polish, wax type Ingredients (in parts by weight) adapted from Minrath (1957): 20 Paraffin wax or beeswax 70 Tupentine 3 Carnauba wax q.s. Dyes 4 Montan wax Melt the first three ingredients, adding each one after the other has melted, then add the colour. when thoroughly mixed, discontinue heating, remove from the heat source (for safety) and slowly add turpentine while stirring. To produce the desired shade of colour, the following oil soluble dyes or their equivalent may be incorporated: Black - Nigrosin, Brown - Bismarck Brown, Red - Rhodamin, Orange - Chrysoidin, and Yellow - Auramin. If one or the other waxes are not available, they can be replaced with beeswax. The consistency of the final polish may change slightly, but this should not alter significantly the performance of the product. Peter Dillon wrote: > Hi to all, > > Would be most grateful if somebody could indicate a good method to make > un-coloured boot/shoe polish based on beeswax. > > Peter > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:29:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB I agree that the sky will not fall if AHB gets spread all over the place by IMO migratory beekeepers. I mean yeh we can deal with it as beekeepers. IMO packages and caged queens are mostly a sideliner hobbyist product and are more closely watched, then 1000's of migratory colonies where a hot colony can spread their genetics for months before a migratory beekeeper notices them. I have not met many migratory beekeepers who have a lot of spare time for things like that either eh? Anyhow the last post illustrated my major concern and that is the publics perception about "bees" if AHB is documented in numerous northern states and over a large area of the USA. According to my farmers market customers 1 of 3 people are deathly allergic to bee stings and in the fall (yellowjackets) bees are a real pain. With the publics narrow view of bees the presence of AHB in America will take most of the fun out out of being a beekeeper. For now its a romantic sort of profession but we could be viewed as the ENEMY if we are believed to be harboring the DREADED KILLER BEE. The facts will not mean jack if this cat gets out of the bag. I don't think that the migratory people have a clue what kind of trouble this will unleash in the publics mind. To anyone who thinks state or federal regulaion of interstate shipments of bees is unfair just poke around in the poultry, beef or pork industries and see the volumous reams of rules for shipment. I predict we have seen nothing yet and that the hokey inspections which go on currently for shipping out of state will seem rather mundane in the future when public panic plays a more active role in defining laws etc pertaining to honey bees. The public was not a factor with the spread of mites, SHB and other problems. They are in this front and center this time. At some point the public will figure out that the bee indsutry has something to do with the spread of AHB a fact which they are clueless to now. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:37:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Pollen Substitute Patties In-Reply-To: <20051201041707.83515.qmail@web53405.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Seems to be several different sources of pollen/pollen substitute patties available out there. What has the lists' experience been using the differently sourced patties to induce rapid brood build-up in the spring? I am expecially interested in how the Russian colonies respond to induced build-up in the spring using pollen patties along with feeding of syrup. Where I live the main honey flow follows pretty closely to the spring build-up flow and the Russians don't seem to be built up to strong colonies until midway into the flow. Would like to get them up to strength before the beginning of the flow. Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 12:00:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Mice in Stored Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, Chuck Norton mentioned storing supers criss crossed in an open shed. I store my supers dry in a shed. Wax moth has never really except the early varroa years. Harvesting early the temperature was still to warm and wax moth showed up in the first supers that were extracted. Now that the varroa treatment I use goes on after Sept 1 I don't have to pull too early. Any that do come off before Sept. 1 go back on the colony. My biggest problem is mice. The shed is not mouse proof and I more than once I have found nests between the frames come Spring. I stack them tight with excluders on top and bottom. I have already had them chew right through the super. I trap what I can, and there are some farm cats that frequent the area. This past summer I was taking cleaned supers off the colonies and stacking them. It started to rain so I covered them and left them alone for a few days. As I was loading the stack on the trailer three mice jumped out. These are clean supers with no residual brood as I use excluders. I can't imagine what would happen if I put them away wet. Ron Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 20:41:57 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Bees Cannot Fly - promotion of a myth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suspect that the myth arose because a bumblebee's wings look small in proportion to its perceived overall size. However, if the hairs are removed then it can be seen that the body is not particularly large in proportion to the wings - and no, I do not go around removing bumblebees fur coats - honeybees do it when a bumble gets killed in a hive. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 16:35:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB In-Reply-To: <200512021829.jB2EMsHA006245@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Fredericksen wrote: > I predict we have seen nothing yet and that the hokey inspections which go on > currently for shipping out of state will seem rather mundane in the future when public panic plays > a more active role in defining laws etc pertaining to honey bees. I hope you are not referring to the Bee Inspectors who I and may others know in Maine, Florida and other States. It is a slander to their fine reputations. You also managed to color commercial migratory beekeepers with the same tarred brush. As I said before, the reaction to AHB is like the reaction to mites and closed borders, except for those who conducted a rational dialog on how to manage the problem. The issue is with some beekeepers who might harbor AHB and know it. That, also is a manageable problem since they are few in number. I have seen several instances of beekeepers responding to irresponsible beekeepers and force them to change their ways. Not one was commercial, all were hobby beekeepers. I just do not see a commercial beekeeper trying to kill his business, even though it is possible. I also do not see our inspectors acting irresponsibly in their inspections of colonies. But I have met a lot of ignorant hobby beekeepers who were well meaning but did not know much about their hobby. As far as the beekeeper being looked on by the public as a problem, just a little PR would handle that. "Beekeepers are the keepers of the EHB flame and need to be around so our bees mellow and dilute AHB genetics." End of issue. That one thing changes us from a problem to a defender of the public and a necessary addition to the "fight against AHB". Bill Truesdell Kabul, Afghanistan -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 16:12:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <20051202045804.21781.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For Isis again: 14% mites in Autumn is probably high enough to kill the hives over winter. Reply: Well, Isis I couldn't refrain from forwarding your email to Hans-Otto via Erik, as they had just finished visiting here where we exchanged much information and should have been about home. This is what came back. . . . . . . . .. . . . . . Hi Dee If you want to you can share with Bee-L the following. Erik ....... Prof Ingemar Fries has in his so called Bond test on the island Gotland in the Baltic i Scandinavia concluded that when colonies are left to their own more or less and not treated for varroa the threshold for surviving winter is 35% mites on bees when broodless in October. Johnsen said in his article that he expected 5-7% winterloss last winter. Around 5% is what he got according to personal information from him. Now the recommendations below is grounded on the fact the treatments with drugs are made, which surely will not leave the colonies uneffected. Johnsen's colonies, as Fries' on Gotland, were not treated with any drug at all. ......... __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 18:46:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: Boot polish In-Reply-To: <23a.2b2f8c3.30c19b84@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, The replies to my request made me real happy - many, many thanks to those who were able to point me in a good direction or actually write out instructions etc. Bob, sorry to have made you move out of your chair! - exercise ensures continued flexibility. Peter -20 degrees celsius and below at present during the dark hours here in Southern Manitoba, the bees are gently humming in their wintering quarters. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 22:46:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brian & All, Brian your concerns are real but what do you suggest for solutions besides closing your border and stopping the flow of pollinators. This has been tried many times but has never worked. I have been sitting on a industry update from Florida. The few people I have shown the report to have been shocked! I have not decided yet to post in its entirety. Want a small sample: AHB Florida update: "It is rampant, it is in the migratory operations (estimates from the beekeepers was 10% this past year). Favorite method of detecting was to slowly drive by the hives , and watch to see which hives the bees poured out of to attack the truck then mark those hives, and when they get to their destination ,split and requeen. I think the 2006 hobby level beekeeper will start seeing large numbers of AHb in their hives and get discouraged . There is no real program to help them (education or otherwise). It is my opinion (only an opinion) that the AHB in Florida entered Florida at ports from ships. It is my opinion they are almost if not pure scutellata. So the situation could become similar to the release in Brazil. The AHb which entered Texas have had plenty of European hives to work through before entering the U.S. and some are hot and some are not. The reports coming out of Florida from commercial beekeepers is scary as far as the general public is concerned. January is the first time I will be able to observe these bees close up and I hope to take pictures and see for myself. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 12:04:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Can bees fly? In-Reply-To: <003401c5f4a1$51d431a0$20bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We have had quite a bit of exchange about whether bees can fly. I happen to know they can, particularly when one lands tail first on my arm! This morning's Los Angeles Times had a brief account about that concern, as follows: SCIENCE FILE Scientists Vindicated: Bees Can Fly; Here's How By Thomas H. Maugh II Times Staff Writer December 3, 2005 Scientists have long been derided because of mathematical calculations made in 1934 by French entomologist August Magnan proving that, despite visible evidence to the contrary, the flight of bees was "impossible." But now bioengineer Michael H. Dickinson of Caltech and his colleagues have shown conclusively how the hefty insects manage their aeronautical excursions. Dickinson's team used a combination of high-speed digital photography and a giant robotic mock-up of a bee wing to demonstrate the unusual mechanics behind bee flight. The secret, they reported this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, is a combination of short wing strokes, rapid rotation of the wing as it changes direction, and very fast flapping. Virtually all insects flap their wings through a wide arc, about 165 degrees. Frequency generally varies with size: The larger the insect, the slower the wings beat. Mosquitoes, for example, beat their wings about 400 times per second, fruit flies about 200. Birds beat their wings much more slowly — about 50 times per second for hummingbirds. But bees, which are 80 times as large as fruit flies, flap their wings 230 times per second through an arc of about 90 degrees. And although most insects produce the majority of lift about halfway through the stroke, when the wing is moving fastest, bees get an equally large contribution at the beginning and end of the stroke from the rotation of the wing. Bees, moreover, do not vary their beating rate when carrying a load. Instead, when burdened with pollen, they increase the arc of flapping, Dickinson found. "The wings have to operate fast and at a constant frequency or the muscle doesn't generate enough power," he said. It is possible that the muscles evolved in this fashion specifically to support bee flight, he said, but it is equally likely that "bee ancestors inherited this kind of muscle, and now present-day bees must live with it." +++++++++ I wonder how much that research cost us taxpayers? Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 16:41:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Can bees fly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seems like I read about it a while back. It has something to do with = getting lift by bouncing off the air they just put into motion. The = flight is like a continual stall. It's not like flying like a bird. Dick Marron -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 14:15:32 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Olda Vancata Subject: Queen mating In-Reply-To: <200512011156.jB1BUF5H000096@listserv.albany.edu> A question I've seen somewhere on the webb a video of mating of the queen (with a rotating beam) in the air but I can't find it again. Can someone help me with the URL? \vov -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 06:52:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Queen mating Comments: cc: olda.vancata@QUICKNET.SE In-Reply-To: <4392FA04.31796.91380B4@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Olda Vancata wrote: > > I've seen somewhere on the webb a video of mating of > the queen (with > a rotating beam) in the air but I can't find it > again. > > Can someone help me with the URL? Here it is: http://mkat.iwf.de/index.asp?Signatur=C+9764 I believe there 'may' be another video of this type by NOVA somewhere around also. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 09:52:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Can bees fly? One needs to recall that on the scale of a bee, air density becomes an important factor. On a human scale, other considerations tend to "swamp out" air density for subsonic flight. Some people say that bees "swim through the air", which is a fairly decent metaphor. But not only can bees fly, they can fly and hover in even very low density air mixes, air densities that they would never encounter under natural conditons: http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/198/4/1065 Yummy stuff in there - air density, wingbeat frequencies, stroke amplitudes, Reynolds numbers, lift coefficients... In short, it is clear that bees are better "aircraft" than they need to be, and that not only can they fly, they can fly under adverse conditions that would cause problems for many human-designed propeller aircraft and helicopters. (Jets are not a valid comparison, as they use pure brute force to fly, and without thrust, many have the "glide" capabilities of a brick.) And not to worry Adrian, the study cited was done without the use of even a single tax dollar! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 11:07:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Brian Fredericksen Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB To Bill and Bob and anyone Bill, it sounds like you have a much more meaningful state bee program in the NE then we have here in Mn. In fact the Mn Honey Producers Association has asked the state to essentially disband the state program since it is underfunded and basically useless.. Currently we have a couple of seasonal inspectors who do nothing but look for foulbrood scale when hives are shipped out of state. We have 30 commercial migratory beekeepers in the state. There appears to be no call for bees to be shipped into the state for any pollination work. So why not close the border? I don't see the long term economic benefits from keeping 2-3 dozen outfits in business while the potential for disruption to the sideliner & hobby side is great. Why should I and others not hold the state ag peoples feet to the fire to uphold laws they have on the books to keep invasive pests like Varrora , AHB and SHB out of the state? Many of the migratory beekeepers here are good people and even better beekeepers . I have no axe to grind and feel bad to suggest we should shut them out of the state. I just can't go on blind faith that everything will work out fine in a system the appears to have no oversight and no plan. Like I said before beekeepers are always on overload during the summer. Why should I beleive that the migratory guys will be diligent in their inspecations when they have 1000's of hives, high fuel prices and little time? Yeh like I bet most migratory folks do mite drop tests before they treat right? Yeh sure. I do have history to look at as a predictor and I see mites and SHB spread over North America with the help of migratory beekeepers. We ( as beekeepers) have no real AHB plan in place as an industry and here in Mn no credible oversight so yes I'm damn worried. I guess I'm suggesting a national quarrantine and why not? Is this not standard practice in the farm animal industry? Would we not expect our fed and state governments to act swiftly and decisvely if a pest or disease was on our doorstep? Maybe we can keep avian bird flu contained by just asking poultry producers to please check your chickens? That would nice for the producers right.....but the big picture would not be addressed. I see a lot of reluctance to take ownership of this issue by the bee industry . Let me suggest that if there was a national quarrantine put in place and no hives rolled anywhere that some real ideas might come forth and some kind of mitigation plan put in place that has a chance of succeeding. I 'd feel better about giving that a chance then rolling the dice in the current free for all that is taking place. Someone please tell me how you would explain to John or Jane Doe Public why its not completely crazy to have large quantities of colonies moving around the country some of which are loaded with AHB genetics and we have no way to know how many and where they are going. And our plan is to have every beekeeper looking for AHB even though its hard to tell without DNA analysis a hot bee from an AHB. Sounds like a joke to me and the only reason its going on is that beekeeping is flying under the fed and state and public radar and nobody gives a rip what we are doing for now......... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:19:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells Comments: To: Dee Lusby Dee Lusby wrote: >but why is 14% or more mites bad in Autumn? If you read my previous message you will find domumentation supporting my contention that such a high mite load will kill colonies in an area where there is real winter, maybe not Arizona "winter". Real winter means temperatures below 40 for up to 5 months, and periods of up to 2 months with no flight at all. What happens to bees in the Sun Belt is of less concern to me. I don't live there and have no desire to. I lived in California for years and understand the attraction of "endless summer". The thing that you and all the various small cell advocates fail to acknowledge, however, is the lack of proven connection between little cells and any reduction in varroa, or tolerance to varroa on the part of the bees. Number one, if it is the small cells that are doing it then changing the combs would be sufficient to reduce varroa in anybody's hives. In other words, I would buy little cells, put them in, and varroa not a problem. Nobody is saying this, though. Everyone has OTHER things that they are doing, such as selecting stock, and various management plans. So the bottom line is: you can't know which of these factors is responsible. That is the whole point of a controlled study, which Hans Otto was a part of. But he didn't have the patience or whatever to wait for the large scale results and in my opinion: shot himself in the foot. Bottom line: I don't believe him, or anyone else that refuses to make an experiment which homes in on the actual question which is "do little cells actually affect the varroa population". By the way, Erickson said years ago that he noticed an reduction in varroa with the little cells, but he thought that the future is in bee breeding. If we can breed a better bee then the type of equipment, management technique, or locale would be less of an issue. ps. The fact that little cell foundation is available now indicates one thing only: somebody thinks they can make money off it. I am not making money off of bees at all any more, raise them only for fun. Of course, it isn't much fun to have them die off in the fall, even BEFORE the rough New England winter. I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:47:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Can bees fly? Dr. Wenner I recently learned of a study of the bee dances, where a graduate student was documenting how the different modes of dancing relate to distance. The bees were trained to a series of distant sites using sugar syrup. I was just wondering -- how does your understanding of how bees find feeding sources account for their ability to lead recruits to *unscented* food sources? The fact that they can somehow bring other bees to dishes with sugar syrup *seems to point toward* some type of communication, other than odor. I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 14:31:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To Bob and all concerned, During my preparations for the article, “The Price of California’s Almond Pollination” I had no idea that the spread and the concern of the Africanized Honey Bee, AHB, would be as great as what I read TODAY. This LIST is only a tip of a vast field of continuously calving icebergs that is demonstrating concern, distaste, and fear of the AHB. I had no idea that solely, the simple fear of AHB would become as rampant during the next 9 months (Research and writing began in February, 2005) as it is TODAY. I also had no idea that the spread of AHB in Florida, and other parts of North America would be as rapid as what I hear and have heard. I did gather a lot of facts and rumors that were not published concerning shipments of packages and queens possibly having AHB queens and drones; to publish such information at that time would have been considered irresponsible; would it have been? The question is of course rhetorical. I learned of Florida’s AHB ACTION PLAN several months before it was published and I quoted parts of it and Jerry’s correspondence in the second Part. While gleaning almost every bit of published material available to this writer I learned of the spread of AHB throughout South America from the time a technician mistakenly opened Pandora’s Box and released the this aggressively dominant version of Apis mellifera to “today” which created a rapid diminishment of hobbyist beekeeping in Brazil and Venezuela. I learned also that very slowly, beekeepers returned to the practice; and, the practice of hobbyist and commercial beekeeper alike adapted to different methods that continue to pupate as the evolutionary metamorphosis of “The Practice” and the skills required to deal with this adversary grow. Like the Varroa, AHB is here to stay. We, YOU AND I, as responsible beekeepers HAVE TO SPREAD THE WORD. We have to spread the WORD to ALL OF BEEKEEPING, THE GOVERNMENT; THE PUBLIC, AND, THE PRESS. To other beekeepers we need to stop sloppy practices of beekeeping. Like the Varroa, the harboring of AHB in our hives with current practices of feeding syrup, pollen substitute, Blankets in the north, etc. will only promote the sub species existence allowing mutation to exist in the colder temperate regions that once were barriers to it natural range. To the Press, and the public we need to reduce the fear by education and demonstration. To the GOVERNMENT we need to combat local laws that would result in further invasion of AHB; and, we need a greater funding and support of the USDA-ARS bee labs as well as the many university and private research organizations. WE must demand support! WE should also call for the isolated banking of the many races and sub-races of Apis mellifera that has been so painstakingly developed within the past 50 years, brother Adam too! Thirty years from now beekeeping in North America will have changed; I for one truly enjoy working my bees on a nice warm spring day in shorts and a tee shirt with just a helmet for a covering. I have worked aggressive colonies with horrid distaste and now quickly requeen and split at the repeated aggressiveness- red thumbtack left front. Most likely I won’t be around then, but I hope that others will continue with this noble profession, and that they will feel as one with nature and the wonderful honey bee as I do today. Chuck Norton Somewhere in the jungles of New Caledonia looking for Bill -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 12:00:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Gunther Hauk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone know Gunther Hauk? What about the workshop that is listed in ABJ? I went to the Pfeiffer Center web site and couldn't find anything about the Organic Beekeeping Workshop. Dee Lusby, on the OrganicBeekeepers List didn't have any info to share with me about Hauk. Funga alafia, ashe, ashe. Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 21:50:25 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Storing supers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 In message , joe bossom writes >The comment of Mr Kilty in Britain confuses me, how does the hive roll back? Dear Joe, I was referring to the removal of frames of honey as they were capped. I suspect we had a bit of content drift on the thread and it diverged. The hives are designed so as the insides can move back on rollers. You will see some videos show the outside of bee huts with rows of hives so close they cannot possibly have supers *above* them. I also referred to Continental Europe (particularly in the East). Relative darkness inside the hut means the bees are less likely to fly and if they do, they go to open areas letting light in immediately rather than on to the beekeeper. I also return wet supers to the hive, if late on, above the crown board, itself immediately above the brood chamber. With our mild maritime winters in west Cornwall UK, the bees police the hives on warmer days, and deal with any wax moth up there (with the spiders!). Our winters are too warm to guarantee enough cold to kill eggs, though I have never stored many supers with comb, outdoors, off the hives. -- James Kilty -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 15:48:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Can bees fly? In-Reply-To: <200512041847.jB4IftmQ018512@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Isis Glass wrote: > > The fact that they can somehow bring other bees to > dishes with sugar syrup > *seems to point toward* some type of communication, > other than odor. Hello, I'm not Dr. Wenner, but as far as I’ve been able to research, it still points to odor. I checked out the MSDS for sugar (sucrose) http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/s7394.htm First,,, disclaimer: MSDS, states in section 2 that sucrose is hazardous, so please be careful when working with this substance. I must inform for liability reasons, when working with hazardous materials such as sucrose, that goggles, lab coat and gloves should be worn as stated in section 3 of the MSDS for sucrose. Section 9 states that sucrose does have an odor: "9. Physical and Chemical Properties Appearance: Monoclinic sphenoidal crystals. Odor: Characteristic caramel." I'm not sure, is there any thing bees would forage that they can't detect an odor from, or that there is even an odorless substance that would be attractable to bees? ,,,except maybe water, which I imagine would still have some type of trace odor. On a related matter. Check out these 4 videos of a bee searching out 24 different odors to find the one of which was rewarded: Bees flying in front of the artificial meadow & Computer tracking of bee flights: http://galizia.ucr.edu/data_mov/content/flighttrack.html (the videos came from this page) "Examples of optical recording data from the insect olfactory system" http://galizia.ucr.edu/data_mov/content/ Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 18:59:27 -0500 Reply-To: janet.katz@earthlink.net Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Janet A. Katz" Subject: Re: Gunther Hauk In-Reply-To: <20051204200011.41442.qmail@web32108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Berninghausen wrote: >I went to the Pfeiffer Center web site and couldn't find anything about the Organic Beekeeping Workshop. It's April 28th and 20th, 2006, and the info is on the site under Workshops/Events: http://www.pfeiffercenter.org/workshops/index.asp Organic Beekeeping Workshop Chestnut Ridge, NY 4/28/2006 through 4/29/2006 A workshop for active beekeepers as well as for beginners including a hands-on session. In this workshop we will look at the bee colony as an organism and what it needs in order to further its health and vitality. Lots of practical advice and demonstrations will give novices enough information to get started with their own hive, and encourage experienced beekeepers to adopt organic procedure. Friday April 28, 2006, 4pm to 9 pm Saturday April 29, 2006, 9am to 6pm Optional Beginner Session - This will provide a very basic introduction to the hive and the honeybee, and is recommended for those with little practical experience in beekeeping. 2pm, Friday, April 28,2006 Tuition for Organic Beekeeping Workshop -$165 Tuition for Workshop & Beginner Session - $190 Presenter: Gunther Hauk Director of Pfeiffer Center bullet For More Information on this event Send Email To beework@pfeiffercenter.org Janet A. Katz Chester, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:58:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <200512041819.jB4IG4DN017826@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isis Glass wrote: > In other >words, I would buy little cells, put them in, and varroa not a problem. > >Nobody is saying this, though. > > I beleive Dennis M has said something to that effect. I will not put words into his mouth - perhaps he might share his observations of placing multiple stocks of bees on small cell. Keith -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 16:59:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <200512041819.jB4IG4DN017826@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Isis writes: if it is the small cells that are doing it then changing the combs would be sufficient to reduce varroa in anybody's hives. In other words, I would buy little cells, put them in, and varroa not a problem. Nobody is saying this, though. Reply: I see you live in a somewhat isolated world, to not have heard this before, nor read it, for that is exactly what happens as the bees change over and regress down in size. For when you change the size of the cell, you change the environment the bees are living in, in many ways; which then changes the diet the bees are fed and maintained upon; which also changes the breeding parameters, and yes........by going to 4.9mm small cell size in the center of the natural spectrum of cell sizes, it does indeed relate to all races and strains, by latitude and altitude from the extremes of the Equator to the most northern/southern regions where bees are kept. For where one is the bottom of the ladder, the other is the top vice versa. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:09:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <200512041819.jB4IG4DN017826@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Real winter means..... >temperatures below 40 for up to 5 months, and periods of up to 2 months with > > > How would Casper Wyoming weather stack up for you? On some of the other lists, I have started a first and last snow date contest. And I won it every year! :>) >Number one, if it is the small cells that are doing it then changing the >combs would be sufficient to reduce varroa in anybody's hives. In other >words, I would buy little cells, put them in, and varroa not a problem. > >Nobody is saying this, though.... > Well, maybe almost nobody. But that almost nobody is most certainly me. I have put all kinds of commercially availible stock on small cell comb. And they were all varroa tolerant. Some of the kinds tested included, Strachan NWC; Glenn Russian(several different lines), Carniolan and Smart; Weaver Harbo, All American, Russian, Buckfast; Miska Italian and Carniolan; USDA Russian; Lusbees; Minnesota Hygienic Italian, Koehnen Italian(at the time Ohio Queen Breeder stock) I have removed some of that same stock, including the same queen, from small cell comb and placed them on clean, large cell sized comb. And all of those that were removed needed varroa mite treatment, at the end of the first season, to survive. You can read the results for yourself at: http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/sunr.htm > >that the future is in bee breeding. If we can breed a better bee then the >type of equipment, management technique, or locale would be less of an issue. > > Running off to beehalla. Finding the magic bee. And breeding it to perfection has been the heigth of adventurious dreams for many bee breeders. It is a very romantic notion. My thoughts paralleled this thinking. And before I actually tried small cell for myself, I thought the success that both Leonard Hines and Erickson, and Ed and Dee Lusby had achieved was the result of an influx of favorable genes from Africa via the AHB. But when I tried small cell on my bees, in my location, the results were absolutely shocking. I ran a poll on beesource to see just what kind of experience other beekeepers have had with small cell. With the exception of a couple of cases, all who have tried it are sticking with it. With those who have tried it, the question is not if cell size is effective, but why and how it's effective. And beekeepers are developing their own methods and management to make their notions of small cell beekeeping work better. Some, like Dee L, have a very strong commercial organic bent. Others, like Joe W and Michael B, are working with feral bees. Although I started with small cell from a very traditional, large scale, commercial prospective, I now, just putter with my top bar hives and a few small cell hives. >ps. The fact that little cell foundation is available now indicates one >thing only: somebody thinks they can make money off it. I am not making >money off of bees at all any more, raise them only for fun. Of course, it >isn't much fun to have them die off in the fall, even BEFORE the rough New >England winter. > So, then what do you have to loose? Just the cost of a little foundation and some fun time? Rather than thinking of all the reasons that small cell might not work, why not put it to the test, with your bees, in your location. Design and give it a fair test. Watch your bees for yourself. And then report what you see. Maybe you will be one of those few who don't find any value for small cell. On the other hand, you might find yourself one of the others who have experienced a different outcome. And along the way, you might see something that will help others understand this process better. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:05:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Queen mating In-Reply-To: <20051204145209.74466.qmail@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, Here's the article on how the program "Tales from the hive" NOVA was able to film the honeybee mating high off the ground http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bees/making.html Remember to bookmark, the other link provided earlier: > http://mkat.iwf.de/index.asp?Signatur=C+9764 > __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:20:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <4393A140.7040007@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dennis writes:. Some, like Dee L, have a very strong commercial organic bent. Others, like Joe W and Michael B, are working with feral bees. Reply: Now this is something I am hearing for the first time, but this is good. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 08:37:09 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <200512011741.jB1GDrHf018254@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Isis Glass wrote about using a lunch box for cell transport... My needs have been different to most, as I have often dealt with small numbers of cells that sometimes had to be carried several hours by car. I came up with the device http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/celltransport.html but I had in mind building a 'super' version made from an insulated picnic box. This would have been temperature controlled and fan circulated, powered by cyclon lead acid batteries topped up with solar panels. Such an item will remain a dream for me, but anyone else is welcome to take it further. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 07:20:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Couple of links In-Reply-To: <200512041931.jB4JUw0i020154@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/comics/king.htm?name=Piranha if you are interested in a little humor (very off-the-wall). I have no idea where the comic will be going, but it started today, Dec 5, 2005. You can pick the date, so can go back to the 5th, if you read this later. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051021120542.htm this one has to do with wasps searching for explosives and talks a bit about Jerry B's work. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 07:25:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:09:04 -0700, D. Murrell wrote: >>Number one, if it is the small cells that are doing it then changing the >>combs would be sufficient to reduce varroa in anybody's hives. In other >>words, I would buy little cells, put them in, and varroa not a problem. >> >>Nobody is saying this, though.... >> >Well, maybe almost nobody. But that almost nobody is most certainly me. Well, in your own words: "I think that much of the positive aspects attributed to the small cell bees can actually be attributed to the lack of pesticides in the hives equipment. Clean wax is almost everything." I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 07:38:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells D. Murrell wrote: >http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/sunr.htm OK, so I read all the stuff -- but there you present quite a different picture: you say: First, the bees will need a clean broodnest. Second, repeat after me: "One cell size can't do it all." Third, simply get your bees on a small cell core. Fourth, don't loose your bees while doing it. Treat those bees, when necessary Fifth, don't sweat the small cell stuff. comment: Like I said, you aren't stating that small cells are the only thing in your management plan. You do reject the whole idea of artificially enlarged bees, to your credit. I. G. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 08:11:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Missing the Point with AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings to All, On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, Brian Fredericksen wrote: “To Bill and Bob and anyone… …it sounds like you have a much more meaningful state bee program in the NE then we have here in Mn. In fact the Mn Honey Producers Association has asked the state to essentially disband the state program since it is underfunded and basically useless…..Currently we have a couple of seasonal inspectors who do nothing but look for foulbrood scale when hives are shipped out of state.” FWIW- IMHO, your state organization should demand a greater presence of apiary inspection. Blaine White did a great job as the Chief Apiarist for the State of Minnesota. His posts on BEE-L were always accurate and informative. I for one always welcomed and gained considerably from his advice. Since his departure from the Apiary Services Program there have been a few changes in apiary inspection personnel, Ms. Valarie Cervenka took over for a while and has now been replaced by Mr. Daniel Pasche. His address and contact information is as follows: Mr. Daniel Pasche, Apiary Program Coordinator Minnesota Department of Agriculture 32736 180th Street, Starbuck, MN 56381 Phone: 320-239-4725 • daniel.pasche@state.mn.us• Fax: 320-239-4725 In addition to Apiary Inspection Services with the Minnesota Department of Agriculture there of course is your internationally renown Extension Specialist, Dr. Marla Spivak. Extension Specialists are paramount in assisting state level departments of agriculture with policy and procedures; often specialized disciplines within a broad biological field require a high degree of expertise from academia that is just not there at a government position. It is my opinion that your state beekeepers should enlist her support. Her address and contact information is: Dr. Marla Spivak Room 219 Hodson Hall 1980 Folwell Ave, St. Paul, MN 55108phone: (612) 624-4798 fax: (612) 625-5299 E-mail: spiva001@umn.edu Extension Activities: Regional Apiculture Outreach Program (includes Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa, Wisconsin). You should take note that her extension responsibilities when combined include the largest honey producing area in the US. Just remember, it’s the squeaky wheel that gets the oil; and, the bigger the wheel the louder the squeak! Walk softly and carry a big stick, your state beekeeping organization has more clout than you think. Cheers, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:16:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Can Bees fly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 >>>how does your understanding of how bees find feeding sources account = for their ability to lead recruits to *unscented* food sources?<<< It is known that bees will mark unscented sugar water or just plain = water with Nasenov. (J B Free: Pheromones of social bees) Dickm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 07:52:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <439007B5.6030906@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dave Cushman writes: Such an item will remain a dream for me, but anyone else is welcome to take it further. Reply: Dave, then you should consider buying an Executive Refrigerator that weights only about 6 lbs and plugs into a vehicle lighter, and/or regular outlet, and can be used to keep things either cold or warm, and is great for carrying film, medical supplies, and scientific material, which to me includes being able to carry either queen cells, or newly hatched queens to mating yards. By the way I have one. The company Executive Inc is out of LA, Calif also, just in case you may want to get in contact with them. respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 16:24:05 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <439007B5.6030906@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <439007B5.6030906@lineone.net>, Dave Cushman writes >Such an item will remain a dream for me, but anyone else is welcome to >take it further. Try the following:- www.carricell.com I have two of them, one for each truck. The wheel has been invented, no need to do it again. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:11:29 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: the advance of technology In-Reply-To: <20051205155230.24909.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dee > Dave, then you should consider buying an Executive > Refrigerator that weights only about 6 lbs Time was that the cool box that I was thinking of utilising as a portable incubator, would have been 'cutting edge' technology. A fridge like you suggest could be used for many other purposes as well, but how do you control the humidity when used to transport queen cells ? Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:31:39 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: requeening: cell vs mated queen In-Reply-To: <99wYiwDlmGlDFw7l@denrosa.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray > www.carricell.com > > I have two of them, one for each truck. The wheel has been invented, no > need to do it again. Ah, but it it not about re-inventing the wheel, it is about improving it and tailoring exactly to the job in hand. But as a hobby beekeeper... I am as big a skinflint as the next guy and I like to experiment (fiddle) with things :-) Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:27:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: the advance of technology In-Reply-To: <439474C1.3020104@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Dave Cushman wrote: > Hi Dee > A fridge like you suggest could be used for many > other purposes as well, > but how do you control the humidity when used to > transport queen cells ? > > A wet towel? Mike __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 13:24:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Can bees fly? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Hi James: Jets are not too bad as gliders. The commercial airliners have a glide ratio better than 10:1. This is better than your average honey bee which has a glide ratio of about zero. Try Google with "the Gimli glider" or " The Azores Glider" as subject. Both Canadian eh? Best regards Donald Aitken From: "James Fischer" > (Jets are not a valid comparison, as they use pure brute > force to fly, and without thrust, many have the "glide" > capabilities of a brick.) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 02/12/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 20:41:51 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: the advance of technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >but how do you control the humidity when used to >transport queen cells ? How about placing the cells in a small nuc? The bees would keep the right temp and humidity around the cells. Would need to make a screened insert to hold the cells. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:11:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: the advance of technology In-Reply-To: <20051205.124241.15860.44128@webmail38.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-405A6471 > make a screened insert to hold the cells. Could just place the cell bar frame in a queenless nuc, and not make a screened cage. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 12/2/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:34:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <200512051238.jB5CYA2S001658@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Isis Glass wrote: > Like I said, you aren't stating that small cells are > the only thing in your > management plan. Comment: Of course not! Small cell is not a substitute all for bad management practices! Why small cell is working for me I also attribute to good management practice, letting the un fit die, keeping OUT the treatments and artificial crutches, no artificial sugar feeding which would give unfair advantage to the unfit, keeping the best and let die the rest, breeding from the fittest bees that are performing and acclimated to my climate (ferals in my case), eliminating the bottom non performers. These are just a few good management practices that all should be doing anyways. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 16:29:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: the advance of technology In-Reply-To: <439474C1.3020104@lineone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Mike, Just back in from field and saw your reply to Dave. I do same. I use warm wet towels, same as when I used a portable incubator I would plug into a power inverter, as I couldn't use warm water as it would slosh out. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 21:06:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe & All, > no artificial sugar feeding which would give unfair advantage to the unfit, How can you judge the bees unfit if you rob their honey? To see the need for feed as an unfair advantage it would seem you would have to leave all the honey on would you not? You might look at the need for feed when choosing a breeder queen but not feeding production hives needing feed seems silly. We had severe drought here and are in a tough cold winter. Without some feed losses would have been high. Bees need a certain amount of feed to survive our winter. if the fall plants do not supply then I do in the form of syrup. I would be pretty stupid to feed the girls a dollar a pound honey when they winter fine on .15 a pound syrup. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 20:43:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Crimp wired small cell foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wanted to let you know I talked to Joe Graham again at Dadant and emails and phone calls he has received have been positive for wanting medium sized small cell, along with deep sized small cell crimp wired foundation. So he has been forwarding all the responses to the Dadants for them to see. Looking pretty good. Ff more responses come and enough are willing to buy if available, then they will produce both sizes in crimp wire. So wanting to thank those here that have helped by emailing and calling to help expand the product line. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 21:45:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <200512051238.jB5CYA2S001658@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I. G. >OK, so I read all the stuff -- but there you present quite a different picture: > >Like I said, you aren't stating that small cells are the only thing in your >management plan. > If you have read all the stuff, how can you say I present a different picture? Maybe you read it too fast to really understand it. I'm the first to admit my writing is harder to read than I would like. I'm not a writer, just a beekeeper. If I were a good writer, I could spend all this keyboard time writing a book and making a little money rather than doing this for free:>) Cell size/broodnest structure is the key component for varroa mite tolerance. And with mite tolerance, pesticides aren't needed inside the hive. That combination allows bees to overwinter much better, build up faster in the spring. It allows me to requeen every three years rather than every year. And my bees can do more than survive. They can thrive without much intervention from me. The fact that I come to a different conclusion concerning the how's and why's of small cell doesn't negate any part of the if's. And yes, I do more than just one thing in my management plan. If the bees are hungry I feed them. If they need more room I super them. I requeen colonies with failing queens. I split hives that want to swarm if I need additonal hives. I prepare them for winter by reducing entrances and moving colonies from exposed locations(there are sustained 70+mph winds here in the winter). Yep, my management sure encompasses more than just one thing. I hope yours does also. Now I have some questions. How many hives do you loose during the winter? How much of your bee equipment would remain empty without purchasing packages and queens? How does your production compare with the average production for your area? What would happen to your hive count if you left your bees unattended for a year? For two years? For six years? Does your management include checkmite? If so, have you tried to rear queens in those checkmite treated hives? How are your supercedure rates? And if so, what will you do when you get checkmite resistant mites? Would you be ashamed if your customers knew what was put in your hives? How about the state bee inspector? Would you let your children eat your mite treatment? What about your customers? If you have kept bees for awhile, how would you summarize your experience? Is it getting better with healthier bees, more production and easier management. Or has it been heading in another direction? These, of course, are rhetorical questions. I expect no answers. But I hope every beekeeper would ask these kinds of questions of themselves. And if you don't like the answers you get. Then get up and do something about it. There are options available today that weren't available 20 years ago. And some of these options just might take your beekeeping in the other direction. It did for me. That's why I share what I have experienced. So that, if anyone is interested, they can take advantage of my success as well as my failures. It's hard to believe, that in a few months, it will be seven years of hands on experience with small cell for me! And I know of a small cell hive of bees that has been continuosly occupied and has thrived without any management, intervention or treatment of any kind for 6 1/2 of those years. And I wouldn't go back to those good old large cell days for anything. I've written about this experience for most of those years. And that info is freely available on web. And it's in the archives on the major lists. To me, it's sounds like I'm playing the same old tune, on the same old drum again, when I repeat these kinds of posts for the umpteenth time. And if it sounds that way to me, I can only image what it must sound like to you guys :>))) I'm only a beekeeper and not a debater, or philosopher. And I get all the argument time I need from my teenage sons. So, I've decided not to address these kinds of small cell issues anymore. But I will contribute if I experience anything that would add to the previous discussions. Best Regards And Have a Great Holiday Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:05:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Can bees fly? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here are some interesting remarks on Bumble Bee flight, faith, and science: http://www.paghat.com/beeflight.html A few other sites can be linked to from this one, also: http://tinyurl.com/52sp8 (Those were just the first two that came up on Google out of 206 hits for “Bees can’t fly”) For those of you who bought it, thumbed through the pictures, and then layed in on your coffee table without reading any of it, Lesley Goodman’s book ‘Form and Function in the Honey Bee’ has an entire chapter devoted to bee flight. Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:41:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <200512051225.jB5BndPU029893@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I.G. and Everyone, >Well, in your own words: > >"I think that much of the positive aspects attributed to the small cell bees >can actually be attributed to the lack of pesticides in the hives equipment. >Clean wax is almost everything." > Well, now I have a question for you! If clean wax is almost everything, why is it just 'almost everything'? And what elment do think is missing, that would make the 'almost everything' truly 'everything? Since you have quoted me, you already know what I would say. It's the broodnest structure, of which small cell size is a major functional component. And how do you think I keep my hives free of pesticides and my wax clean which is almost everything? How do you do it? Regards Dennis Thinking beekeeping and especially small cell beekeeping is alot like swimming. One can sit on the shore and idlely critic those who are swimming. A bystander can think great and wonderful thoughts about swimming. But those thoughts, no matter how intense or involved, are little more than speculation until the watcher gets wet. And those critics and speculations are quickly forgotten when the water replaces the air in one's nose/lungs and the toes can't touch the bottom! But those who never get wet will never know it! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 08:39:15 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: the advance of technology In-Reply-To: <20051205.124241.15860.44128@webmail38.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Waldemar, Dee, Mike, Mike & all > How about placing the cells in a small nuc? It has been so long since I did any work on the project that I had forgotten that this was one of the reasons for the 'cool box' idea. A damp towel (or a sponge) does work for this purpose, I used a towel to wrap around frames removed from a hive for grafting to save de-hydration of larva while the frame was carried to a shady place. > Would need to make a screened insert to hold the cells. Most bee breeders as well as most queen raisers, would have frame isolation cages available... A good many years ago these were available from the bee trade as a manufactured item, to suit UK brood frame size, does anyone have a photo of one of them or know any details (all I have are some rather faded scribble pencil notes). But as Mike suggests... Two or three frames of bees from more or less any hive would make up a queenless workforce. If you were taking the cells to an isolated mating site, you would have to somehow filter out any drones from such a workforce, but that is not difficult. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 04:39:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <002501c5fa12$0e779340$14bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob Harrison wrote: > How can you judge the bees unfit if you rob their > honey? Hello Bob, I'm mostly referring to ferals I catch. I have found it is difficult if not impossible to properly assess them if you provide artificial feeding. So what I do is to place them in my poorest location where they have to work hard to survive, this has the effect of spreading out performance grades between the colonies (unfit will do real bad here, and the fittest will do much better or even excel). Then it is a matter of assessing the queen performance and colony performance, which is extremely easy as I have found that poor performers will be much lighter, or occasionally on the verge of starvation, these unfit I eliminate as I find. During my assessment of these colonies, I restrict them to a single deep and winter them in singles then assessment is completed by May. In my full size colonies, I rob honey that is above, it’s the bees responsibility to fill the broodboxes below with stores not mine. Baring a particularly dry season, if they cannot manage to collect enough stores for themselves as compared to the average for that season, then this may indicate that they are unfit and need eliminated as opposed to proped up and fed. I do extract from the broodnest when needed also, but have never fed, other than occasionally equalizing stores in the fall. > You might look at the need for feed when choosing a > breeder queen but not > feeding production hives needing feed seems silly. Production colonies are ready for the Locust and Tulip, I just haven’t seen the need to feed, the bees get plenty good spring feeding from the Maple bloom. Also, by not feeding these production colonies, I can accurately assess (ref. Brother Adam) fecundity, foraging zeal, spring development and wing power. It’s the style of beekeeping I choose, and it has aided in the ability to identify colonies that are fittest for my area. Selecting from only the fittest and not artificially propping up I believe has accelerated success for me in organic beekeeping. Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 09:02:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Can bees fly? In-Reply-To: <200512060505.jB6548df013691@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Dec 5, 2005, at 9:05 PM, Dick Allen wrote: > Here are some interesting remarks on Bumble Bee flight, faith, and > science: > > http://www.paghat.com/beeflight.html Thanks very much for that URL on bee flight, Dick. I am passing it on to other interested parties! Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 15:58:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <4395174F.8070807@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like to weigh in on this matter. Finally. At 09:45 PM 12/5/05 -0700, Dennis wrote: > >I'm not a writer, just a beekeeper. If I were a good writer, I could >spend all this keyboard time writing a book and making a little money >rather than doing this for free:>) IMHO Dennis, you are a fine writer. Don't knock yourself, leave that job to other people! Your style is thoughtful and your information is well organized, and well presented. I always enjoy visiting your site. I find it helpful, inspiring, and informative. You have clearly spent a long time thinking, observing, poking and prodding, and you've figured out a whole lot more about beekeeping than a lot of people even suspect is going on in the first place. However I didn't start this message just to lavish you with praise. I started this message because I've heard this all before Dennis... from you, as you dejectedly point out, at the end of your message. You want to save yourself keyboard time? Don't bail on us! Here's my advice: Save this message (er.. not *this* message, but the one you wrote that I'm replying to...)!! Then, when (not if) the question of why no meaningful and scientifically correct small cell experiments have been done, or how is it that "merely changing cell size" can affect varroa tolerance and why can't someone *prove* it by changing JUST THE CELL SIZE, or any other similar question that seems to keep coming up here... then, you just dig up your original reply, and post it. Again. And again. Think of all the time you'll save :) Eventually, people will begin to realize that it's not JUST THE CELL SIZE that's at work, that it's in fact about a whole paradigm shift in beekeeping awareness. Until then, this large cell/small cell controversy will continue. I just hate to see so much time and energy being frittered away by 2 groups of well-meaning and intelligent people simply because they're looking at it from such different positions. Maybe, when someone stops insisting on *proof* and sits back a moment and says "Well... gee. There's *something* going on here... they can't explain it (to my exacting scientific satisfaction) but.. heck, after all, bees CAN fly, even though they shouldn't be able to.. maybe it's not just cell size.. maybe it's got something to do with cell size, clean comb AND brood nest structure.. and chemicals.. what about chemicals? Maybe it's not just one thing. Maybe it's a LOT of things that taken together have an effect greater than the sum of it's parts... maybe I should look into this.. maybe I should keep an open mind about it. Maybe I should try it..." maybe, if we all stopped and asked ourselves that (long) question, we'd be compelled to look more closely at this "small cell thang" with an open and inquisitive mind. I'm actually the LAST person that should be writing this message because I'm not a "fully regressed" beekeeper :) It's only my first year of beekeeping in fact so I can't really speak from experience either, but I have asked myself the very same question I just formulated above, and my conclusion is the same: maybe I should look into this, maybe I should keep an open mind about it. I am basically a scientific type. I'm skeptical. I'm knowledgeable, I'm reasonably well educated. I can think for myself and I like proof as much as the next person. I can't tolerate sensationalism and dogma any more than the next thinking individual can. However, I'm also willing to accept that I don't know everything and that not everything can be explained by science as we know it now nor can everything be proven by existing scientific methods. Science is dynamic. Science can change and evolve as necessary to accomodate changing conditions and new evidence. Can we? There are many people practicing "small cell" beekeeping with all the appearances of success. I can't explain it. Don't make sense. Would they lie? To me? To themselves? Are they grasping at straws? Fabricating evidence? Do they have a vested interest in their own perspective? Are they nurturing a false hope? I'd suggest that it may be US that are suffering from vested interests and nurturing false hopes. Rather than dismissing them as crackpots because they can't *prove* what they're doing works or because they haven't devised a highly controlled scientific experiment that positively identifies THE ONE THING that they're doing that's different from what EVERYONE ELSE is doing that is The Reason for their success. Maybe it's not ONE thing. Maybe it's TWO things. Maybe it's TEN things. Maybe it not just WHAT they're doing, but HOW they're doing it, and WHEN. Maybe they don't even know why it works and can't begin to explain it. Does that make it not reality? Intead of taking the position "Prove it with a scientifically controlled and reproducible experiment and THEN I'll believe you", why not take the position "OK, let's ASSUME it works. Let's figure out why." I know it's a stretch, even for me, but I'm game. I've got everything to gain, and nothing to lose. Is there anything to "small cell"? Is that really even a good name for what Dennis has tried to describe? I don't know. Time will tell. I know some of you have tried small cell and eventually failed to realize the benefits you expected. I'm trying it, and I haven't failed. Yet. There's still time :) George- --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 16:48:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20051206155811.0088ce00@pop.gwi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-45C01C8C > ...sits back a moment and >says "Well... gee. There's *something* going on here... > More people are watching than you think. At all the beekeeper meetings that I've been to this summer, when the topic comes up, this is exactly what most are saying. "Something's going on." Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 12/2/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 14:24:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051206164237.012a1460@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Michael Palmer wrote: > > ...sits back a moment and > >says "Well... gee. There's *something* going on > here... > > I'll tell you what. Those of us who have umpteen gadzillion dollars locked up in the large cell foundation and equipment are going to be mighty indignant if we have to change to the smaller cell size to beat the varroa. Just thinkin' of all that money sitting on the shelf, waiting to be used, and all that large cell comb out in the hives, and now it's obsolete. Makes my ole wallet just groan in misery. Maybe that's why we are so adament about "proof" when it come to the efficacy of small comb management. We just hate to see all that money goin' down the drain. A thought. Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 16:08:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Empire State Honey Producers Association winter Meeting Comments: To: Beekeepers Organic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Empire State Honey Producers Association (ESHPA) had their winter meeting last friday and saturday. There were a number of good speakers. Folks that I had heard about on the Bee Lists. I enjoyed meeting Zackery Huang, his photos of bees have been available through his posts on Bee-L. He has some very interesting photos. Tom Seeley's talk on "Forest Bee and Varroa" was probably the talk that I enjoyed most. It took us out of the Lab and out of the honey packing rooms to the Arnot Forest near Cornell University. Tom has been studying feral bees that he found in the Arnot Forest, by bee lining. Unfortunatley, Tom's bait hives (hives that came from swarms from the forest bees that he used to collect Varroa Data from) were eaten by bears. They, the bear or bears, climbed 14 to 16 feet up into trees where these conventional, single story, hives were located and they had them for lunch. What was interesting to me was the fact that the bee trees that the swarms came from were untoached by the bears. No claw marks on the bee trees. For me, the real meeting is out in the hall, at the bar or at the dinning table. There is time to catch up with old friends and a chance to meet new ones. I especially like it when everyone is on a first name basis, none of this Dr. So and So stuff. I remember the first time that Dr. Roger Morse called me by my name and told me to call him Roger. That felt a bit awkward at first, but I got used to it. Dining and drinking and gabbing with friends and acquaintences about bees, beekeeping and those of us in the beekeeping community, the only way it could have been better is if the meeting had been outdoors and there had been a barbecue grill covered with sausages and Boston Butts. Mmmm, yummy. That's the venue and the menu for the summer picnic (or is that pignic?). Come join us. Look for us at ESHPA.org. Adios, Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:47:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <20051206222432.667.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:24 PM 12/6/05 -0800, you wrote: >--- Michael Palmer wrote: > >Maybe that's why we are so adament about >"proof" when it come to the efficacy of small comb >management. We just hate to see all that money goin' >down the drain. A thought. > Sure. I understand. All too clearly :) Unfortunately, it doesn't really change the situation any, and the proof everyone's looking for may not be forthcoming anytime soon because I suspect, if there's anything to "small cell" at all, that it's about more than just "cell size". Therefore, any experiment that simply pits small cell foundation against large cell foundation with everthing else being equal is likely to turn out "inconclusive". I should know for myself in time if there's anything to it- I'm performing my own experiment- the results of which are still uncertain :) I've got 6 1st year hives living in 2 deeps with 75% of the comb currently small cell. Next spring I'll feed more small cell into the brood nests and cull out the last of the large cell combs- which I'll reuse in some of my other hives. It's not a well-controlled scientific experiment, but it's an experiment nonetheless- and it's my experiment. The results may be worthless to anyone but myself and anyone wishing to debunk my results, regardless of what they are, won't have a hard time doing so! And I don't really care, because I'm not doing this for anyone but myself. I just want to have healthy bees and I really don't want to shut out any possible avenues to that end just because the might not work. That's not to say I'm going to try every quack treatment that comes down the pike either. I'd like to think that I'm not wasting my time and money and that there really IS something to this small cell thing, but that attitude will not affect my interpretation of the results. Or maybe it already has :) If I end up back at square one a few years from now, I'll be the first to admit it. Despite everyone's heavy investment in large cell beekeeping "stuff" and their their precious combs (many of which should probably have been turned into candles a long time ago), there's nothing stopping them from wiring up some frames of small cell foundation and shaking down a hive on `em and performing their OWN experiment- nothing except perhaps their own unwillingness to throw caution to the wind and take a chance on something that just might work. It could even be fun- some real investigative beekeeping for a change. George- --------------------------------------- George & Nancy Fergusson Sweet Time Apiary 326 Jefferson Road Whitefield Maine 04353 207-549-5991 http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:04:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Dillon Subject: Honey prices In-Reply-To: <20051204145209.74466.qmail@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quote extract taken from: http:/www.skamberg.com/honey.htm > Honey Update: > > November 2005 > > Raw honey prices have risen the last several months, and it is felt > by many in the industry that this is a trend that could continue into > next year. > > Another smaller than average US crop has kept domestic honey prices > high, and created a shortage of domestic light amber honey. > > Europe is buying large volumes of honey in the world market, but > shying away from Chinese honey as much as possible. Europe is paying > higher prices for better quality honey, which has caused world raw > honey prices to rise. Much of the previously contracted raw honey in > South America that was destined for the U.S. was sold out from > underneath these contracts as Europe offered higher prices. > > New crop South American honey, which will hit the market in January > or February, 2006 will start out higher priced, and remain there as > long as demand holds, which could be for their entire crop. > > China has lowered their raw honey prices to try to sell their honey, > but much of this honey is still sub-standard and (or) adulterated. In consequence, I ask, "Why am I still being quoted buying prices here in Canada from reputable brokers at levels of Can$0.75"? - for the required water white honey. Regards, Peter -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:37:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Charles Harper Subject: Russian Breeder In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20051206214716.0088daf0@pop.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Fellow Beekeeper The USDA Russian bee stock development program has developed quite nicely. We now have access to a good stock that is still undergoing further development. We also have several beekeepers that are either producing the stock for their own use or for sale. As time proceeds, the program will become more dependent on beekeepers to continue and less dependent on the USDA. At some point in the reasonably near future, the USDA will finish their transfer of the stock to the beekeeping industry. If we want the stock to continue beyond this point, we as beekeepers will need to assume the selection, maintenance and propagation. I think that we can do this to our own benefit and the general benefit to the beekeeping industry. In order to achieve this goal, the organization and development of a "Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association" has been proposed. Such an organization could do the selection and maintenance of the stock and provide a way that we could help each other to assure the quality of our product to our customers. I invite you to attend a meeting to be held during the American Honey Producers Association meeting on Thursday at 7 PM in Houston next month. During that meeting I hope that we can create such an organization that will be to the benefit of all of us. I hope you can attend. If you cannot, I am sure that the group would still want your ideas about proposed association. After the meeting we will develop a draft charter which we would like all Russian honey bee breeders to comment on. Harper's Honey Farm Charlie labeeman@russianbreeder.com Ph# 337 298 6261 > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:07:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Grant Gillard Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20051206214716.0088daf0@pop.gwi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good for you, George. George Fergusson wrote: Therefore, any experiment that simply pits small cell foundation against large cell foundation with everthing else being equal is likely to turn out "inconclusive". I should know for myself in time if there's anything to it- I'm performing my own experiment--It's not a well-controlled scientific experiment, but it's an experiment nonetheless- and it's my experiment. The results may be worthless to anyone but myself...And I don't really care, because I'm not doing this for anyone but myself. More beekeepers ought to try these kind of experiments to see what works under their own system of management and skill (or lack of it). But there are so many variables, known and unknown, controlled and uncontrollable. However, you will find what works for YOU. And yes, many will try to duplicate it and fail because of the many variables in their attempts to replicate your procedures. And in their failure, they will naturally try and debunk you, and it will be you more than your methods, unfortunately. But I do hope you'll share your findings, even the things that went contrary to your expectations (what regular people call "wrong"). It is often the unexpected results that have led to revolutionary advances. Looking forward to your results. Grant Jackson, MO --------------------------------- Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:26:05 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Protein value of coconut pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have a figure for or a reference to the crude protein value = of coconut pollen? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:41:24 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anybody know much about this pest which is currently afflicting Spanish bees having apparently jumped species? This site _http://www.agroinformacion.com/leer-noticia.aspx?not=26613_ (http://www.agroinformacion.com/leer-noticia.aspx?not=26613) gives the Spanish government version of what is happening, but you will need a translation to understand it. It says that they found that the depopulation of beehives, for which they had been blaming the use of chemicals, was also occurring in parts of Spain where no chemicals were used and so they had to look further for the cause. They are treating with an unspecified product several times a year to keep it in check, but it is expensive and they are looking for alternatives. My Spanish friend suggests that a route into that country for this Nosema may be via the Phillipines as there is much traffic between the two countries both legal and illegal (and therefore unregulated). As the US has been experiencing unusual hive depopulations during the last year or two has anybody looked at the Nosema in the hives to see whether it might be this strain instead of the tried and tested Nosema apis? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:27:57 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Protein value of coconut pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor Weatherhead asked: Does anyone have a figure for or a reference to the crude protein value of coconut pollen? No figures, but I have seen that colonies of both cerana and mellifera thrive on it in areas of Southern India where coconut is the major pollen source. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 05:52:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Honey prices In-Reply-To: <4396513C.2060902@mts.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Peter Dillon wrote: > > Honey Update: > > > > November 2005 > > > > Raw honey prices have risen the last several months, and it is felt by many in the industry that this is a trend that could continue into next year. > > > > Another smaller than average US crop has kept domestic honey prices high, and created a shortage of domestic light amber honey. > In consequence, I ask, "Why am I still being quoted buying prices here in Canada from reputable brokers at levels of Can$0.75"? - for the required water white honey. > > Regards, > Peter I know the economic pressures that bear upon us, but do "we" have to sell all our honey at those $0.75 prices? Is there a way that individually we can hold out until the packers are forced to come up to the higher world prices? I know each individual's situation is different, and currently I'm not involved with the problem at all, but as long as we producers acquiesce to these prices there is no incentive for the packers to go higher with their offerings. For what it is worth. Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 09:14:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Honey prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike in lower Alabama asks, "Is there a way that individually we can hold out until the packers are forced to come up to the higher world prices?" Unfortunately, the first who low-balls sets the price for the rest. Who's the bad guy, the packer who offers low ball or the producer who accepts? Aaron Morris - dreaming of $10 a pound! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 17:14:21 +0100 Reply-To: gcaboni@hotmail.it Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Giuseppe Subject: package bees price MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi folksy someone can say the price to me of the Australian packages of bees in California for spring 2006 or last spring 2005? How they come sent? Because they are not successful to find no company that it is taken care of shipments of packages bees. very Thanks giuseppe caboni Giuseppe Caboni Cooperativa Apistica Mediterranea 09026 San Sperate CA ITALY __________________________________________________________________ TISCALI ADSL Solo con Tiscali Adsl navighi senza limiti e telefoni senza canone Telecom a partire da 19,95 Euro/mese. Attivala subito, I PRIMI DUE MESI SONO GRATIS! CLICCA QUI: http://abbonati.tiscali.it/adsl/sa/1e25flat_tc/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:20:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, > "Why am I still being quoted buying prices here in Canada from reputable brokers at levels of Can$0.75"? - for the required water white honey. I am glad you posted the water white category which is easier to talk about. All honey is not equal. The source is important also. Some U.S. packers will not buy canola honey at any price due to the crystallization problems. Currently white honey in the U.S. is in demand and bringing at least .75 U.S. to .85 U.S. from the low balling packers. A small lot sold last week for 1.10 U.S.. Convert to Canadian and you should be getting over a buck a pound Canadian. Why not try a couple U.S. packers? Tips: Always send a sample to the packer before talking price. You will always get the low ball price over the phone (if they will give a price over the phone). Send samples to all your Canadian packers! Every packer I every talked to has several honey buy lists. They make deals and your fellow beekeeper could be getting 10-20 cents a pound for the same honey as yours just for balking at the low ball price. When you say water white with excellent flavor to a packer you can see the packer sit up in his chair. Off flavored bakery grade honey only interests packers when they can't find a better grade or the honey is sold cheap. I got a call from a beekeeper with barrels of pure smartweed honey the other day. Those might have to be fed back to the bees as an excellent winter feed but due to dark color (almost black) and odor I do not know of a packer willing to buy. Does the list? Smartweed is spreading across our area and will ruin our best honey. I believe also in South Dakota as a packer told me he was returning three barrels of smartweed honey received with a 60 drum shipment back to the South Dakota beekeeper. Although Buckwheat honey and smartweed are in the same flower family the buckwheat when mixed into wildflower honey only darkens and gives a slight buckwheat flavor. Smartweed on the other hand has a decent flavor but the odor is hard to lose and the first thing you smell when the jar is opened. I do package a pure Heartsease (smartweed) specialty honey and those which buy love the honey. I can't stand the honey myself but will gladly provide the product at a slightly higher price than the honey I won the Blue Ribbon at the 2005 Missouri State Fair. My partner looks at me with wonder every time I sell a jar of pure smartweed honey. His slang for smartweed is stinkweed! When he buys honey on the open market which is rare the first thing he does is check the aroma for the scent of "stinkweed". Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:36:02 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Protein value of coconut pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No figures either, but a personal (sort of related) anecdote. In South Africa we had the largest date plantation in the Southern Hemisphere on the ranch I worked at. Fresh date pollen is hugely expensive, but like Coconut pollen has a very short life span. After a couple weeks or months (it's the same with Coconuts) the pollen becomes unviable and worthless. The guy in charge of the Dates (I was mellons, veggies and Table Grapes) would give me the old Date pollen. To get the AM scuts ready in late winter for the early cantaloup crop, I'd pour some Date pollen into little trays in the hives, and they went nuts over it. Between that and sugar water I'd get the quick buildup I needed. But sorry for not answering your question....:-) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:29:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: Nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris and group, I you like you could send your request for more information to Prof. Ingemar Fries, he pointed out to me just a few days ago that problems exist with Nosema ceranae n.sp. and wrote that contagion of our European honeybee is possible, with reference to: Fries, I. 1997. Protozoa. In: (ed R.A. Morse) Honey bee pests, predators, and diseases. 3rd ed., A.I Root, 57-76.). But please send your message after the 16th of Dec., when he will be available again. Another hint for a link that I received on this subject, but could not get to work was: http://www.estarinformado.com.ar/apicola/041005.htm Let me know how you go, Ron van Mierlo ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [BEE-L] Nosema ceranae Does anybody know much about this pest which is currently afflicting Spanish bees having apparently jumped species? This site _http://www.agroinformacion.com/leer-noticia.aspx?not=26613_ (http://www.agroinformacion.com/leer-noticia.aspx?not=26613) gives the Spanish government version of what is happening, but you will need a translation to understand it. It says that they found that the depopulation of beehives, for which they had been blaming the use of chemicals, was also occurring in parts of Spain where no chemicals were used and so they had to look further for the cause. They are treating with an unspecified product several times a year to keep it in check, but it is expensive and they are looking for alternatives. My Spanish friend suggests that a route into that country for this Nosema may be via the Phillipines as there is much traffic between the two countries both legal and illegal (and therefore unregulated). As the US has been experiencing unusual hive depopulations during the last year or two has anybody looked at the Nosema in the hives to see whether it might be this strain instead of the tried and tested Nosema apis? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:32:02 +0100 Reply-To: gcaboni@hotmail.it Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Giuseppe Subject: Re: nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi folksy Also in Italy the problem of the nosema is becoming much serious and nearly inexplicable one. This last season many Italian companies have had strong mortalities due to the nosema. Unfortunately in Italy and Europe and concurred I do not use it dell only antibiotic used for its control the fumidil. We are experimenting produced natural like the timolo(0,66mg for lt) and others, we hope of having of turns out to you positive to you to share next. We have sent also some champions in order to make of the deepened analyses in order to see if the type of nosema that and present in Italy is the nosema apis or ceranae. I think that this disease is more dangerous also of the varroa. Anyone wants to collaborate to of the experimentations or is in news possession on its control never to thank enough if it will publish to them in these situated verry thanks Giuseppe caboni Excuse for my bad English I have been helped from babel fish Visit www.unaapi.it Giuseppe Caboni Cooperativa Apistica Mediterranea 09026 San Sperate CA ITALY __________________________________________________________________ TISCALI ADSL Solo con Tiscali Adsl navighi senza limiti e telefoni senza canone Telecom a partire da 19,95 Euro/mese. Attivala subito, I PRIMI DUE MESI SONO GRATIS! CLICCA QUI: http://abbonati.tiscali.it/adsl/sa/1e25flat_tc/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 15:31:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: nosema ceranae Comments: To: gcaboni@hotmail.it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, If your problem is being caused by nosema ceranae (Fries 1996) which seems a far reach considering your location (discovered in China) then fumidil should still work to control the problem. The problem with a large nosema problem is the spores. Several methods have been used with success to decontaminate equipment but are involved. Ruttner checked to see if nosema around the world was becoming resistant to fumidil and said no but that was in the 70's. Could be in Italy nosema is becomming resistant. Since the 50's fumidil has been the only reliable method for nosema control in the U.S.. Fumidl is not allowed for treatment of nosema in certain countries such as Australia. Amoeba disease & Gregarines are often mistaken for nosema but both respond to fumidil I have been told by researchers so they are discussed in researchers circles and painted by the broad brush nosema in the U.S. when talking to beekeepers. >Also in Italy the problem of the nosema is becoming much serious and nearly inexplicable one. The solution in my opinion would be to : 1 ID the problem 2. check for resistance to fumidl 3. over see the beekeepers to make sure all the beekeepers in the outbreak area use fumidl AND NOT IN EARLY WINTER BUT IN LATE SUMMER. 4. If the above does not improve the problem to a level which is satisfactory then equipment will have to be decontaminated of nosem spores. I can post methods which have been used successfully around the world to remove nosema spores if needed. Good luck with the problem. Left untreated the problem will only get worse as the problem did not happen overnight! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 23:51:13 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Ron/Eefje van Mierlo Subject: Re: nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adding to your input, Bob: I read (but can't honestly say in which article and what it's date was) that resistance has been found to Fumidil. Neither can I say which Nosema or bee species it involved. If I find the article or source I'll post the details here. Fumidil is not allowed as treatment in Sweden either. Ron van Mierlo -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 00:47:34 +0100 Reply-To: gcaboni@hotmail.it Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Giuseppe Subject: nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Ron and thanks bob. Ei Ron i gone been in Argentina last november and i visit the COSAR and the PROAPI. (prof. Enrique Bedascarrasbure, great man and Rudy Bertero responsible cosar) compliments for progresses that been making. Bob you I would be truly in debit if you can deepen the argument. Thanks gcaboni@tiscali.it visit www.unaapi.it Giuseppe caboni I i can that oly collaborating we can resolved the problems. excuse for my bad english Giuseppe Caboni Cooperativa Apistica Mediterranea 09026 San Sperate CA ITALY __________________________________________________________________ TISCALI ADSL Solo con Tiscali Adsl navighi senza limiti e telefoni senza canone Telecom a partire da 19,95 Euro/mese. Attivala subito, I PRIMI DUE MESI SONO GRATIS! CLICCA QUI: http://abbonati.tiscali.it/adsl/sa/1e25flat_tc/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:03:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: nosema ceranae Comments: To: gcaboni@hotmail.it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Zachary Huang has experience with nosema ceranae if he will comment. I do understand the nosema ceranae responds to fumidil. I am about 99% sure that was what I was told when I asked about the new nosema ceranae named by Fries in "96." Bailey in 1957 decribed an effective method for fumigating nosema spore equipment which used acetic acid (80 %) Shiminuki (1973)reported complete inactivication of nosema spores when they used ethylene oxide for 24 hours at 37.8 celsius *if* the relative humidity was held at 80% . Dr. Shiminuki did quite a bit of research on nosema. In 1970 he was the first to show you could decontaminate nosema spores with high temps alone. I believe around 50 celsius for 24 hours from memory. Freezing has zero effect on nosema spores. A search of the net should provide the papers on the subject by Shiminuki and Bailey. I also believe the papers were published in either ABJ or BC. If you can not find the published papers I will try. Goes without saying the above is done on equipment free of bees. With respect, Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:03:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Honey prices In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE092103311DAA@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What higher world prices? The packers are in business to make money from honey, generic term to many. They are going to get their supply from where they can at as low a price as they can, at the standard of quality that the customer demands. What we need is an end customer who is willing to pay more for our product. The only way we are going to find that customer is to bottle honey ourselves and then keep increasing the price until it doesn't sell. "If all of your customers are happy then you are loosing money." So says a friend of mine. If you want to get the maximum price for your honey you may have to go to Business School and apply the principles found there. If you want to keep bees and then gripe about not getting enough income to cover the cost of doing business, well you might be a farmer. Another friend of mine said one day when I was complaining about the packers price, "The best thing that you can do to help raise the price of honey is to go out of business." I guess he meant that he could sell more honey if we little guys weren't around. Sure we'd all like a living wage from working bees, but if that occured don't you think more people would get into beekeeping and then we'd be right back at square one. Enough all ready. Keeping my head above water, barely, Mark Mike in lower Alabama asks, "Is there a way that individually we can hold out until the packers are forced to come up to the higher world prices?" --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:06:39 +0100 Reply-To: gcaboni@hotmail.it Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Giuseppe Subject: honey price MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi to all On this link the quotations for the packers of the honey in Italy, for kg. http://www.osservatoriomiele.org/nov05.htm I think that in order to increase the price of the honey must make quality and quality control, 0 residual of chemical or antibiotic products, and obligation to the packers companies to withdraw the products when these have residual and to pay strong penality fines. and we do not forget also to develop the history of the product and the relationship with the area or region... this is common problems all over the world western, all can be made enough to be disposed to pay the price! our society and arranged to pay the price of one greater alimentary security ? sincery giuseppe caboni gcaboni@tiscali.it visit www.unaapi.it Giuseppe Caboni Cooperativa Apistica Mediterranea 09026 San Sperate CA ITALY __________________________________________________________________ TISCALI ADSL Solo con Tiscali Adsl navighi senza limiti e telefoni senza canone Telecom a partire da 19,95 Euro/mese. Attivala subito, I PRIMI DUE MESI SONO GRATIS! CLICCA QUI: http://abbonati.tiscali.it/adsl/sa/1e25flat_tc/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:41:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know nothing about Nosema ceranae beyond what has appeared on this list in the last couple of days, however, on the possibly incorrect assumption that it is very similar in cause and effect to Nosema apis, I am wondering why it is a problem where it is a problem. The spores are carried in the faeces of the bee and, although being afflicted by nosema may bring on an urgent need in a bee to void her faeces, she will still do so outside the hive if at all possible. In northern climes this is not always possible during the winter months and so the combs and woodwork become contaminated with spores that the bees can clean up only with their tongues and so the cycle is repeated. But my assumption would be that in Spain and Italy the periods of non-flying weather would be very short indeed and so there should be little contamination within the hive. So how is Nosema ceranae different? Maybe it isn't the real problem after all. Here in the UK Nosema apis is endemic at low levels. If you look for it you will probably find it in every hive, but with normal good husbandry it isn't a problem. I last used Fumidil about 25 years ago and don't know whether it is still available here. I do renew comb from time to time and am trying to increase the frequency of this. Combs that are going to be re-used are given the acetic acid treatment. Will this be enough if/when Nosema ceranae gets here? Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:33:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Honey prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To ALL, On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Mark Berninghausen penned: "The packers .… are going to get their supply from where they can at as low a price as they can, at the standard of quality that the customer demands." Prudent are the words, “at the standard of quality that the customer demands." Herein lies a problem with our business; “at the standard of quality that the customer demands." On a regular basis I travel to grocery stores to take note of honey prices and the brands available. MOST if not all of the large chain stores only sell honey that is from the major packers, multi-regional if not international, ie. Sue Bee, Honey Maid, etc.. The health food stores have their own major brands as well; however, most of these stores will also carry local honey. The health food store market is a good market to break into. I have found that even with UPC labeling the major chains do not want to talk to Buzz Beekeeper. If you can’t supply 1500 stores, they don’t want you. There are a few chains that have less than 200 stores; and, a few of these folks are approachable. However, they want your prices to be comparable with the major brands such as above. (Psssst, pssssst how can they be comparable due to their production methods, and the taste of their honey?….shhhhhhhh) The folks at the National Honey Board here in the USA do promote varietal honey, but, and this is a BIG BUT, IMHO they do not aggressively market varietal honey nor do they aggressively market “Local Honey” or "RAW HONEY". They do have a varietal of the month, http://www.honey.com/votm/index.html that is published on their website. However their approach to national marketing is rather generic in nature. In short, they could do a lot more; and they could do a whole lot more to promote honey produced in this country. Unfortunately, most packers and most importers buy as cheap as possible leaving the American Producer with comb in his teeth and little money in his pocket. It’s a shame that the National Honey Board has such a narrow rail to walk on; there is a lot of really nice and talented folks who work there; but I do not see the active promotion of varietal and local honey produced in the United States as something that is aggressively marketed; it’s only just HONEY, BIG PACKER HONEY, and frankly folks,.... that's tasteless to my palate and my pallet as well. If the NHB would aggressively market the varietals and raw local honey I certainly would have an increased demand for my products; I know that you would too! But then the importers would be crying … actually their market probably would not be hurt at all. Merry Christmas and, Cheers, Chuck Norton http://www.sourwoodhoney.com http://www.blackberryhoney.com http://www.asterhoney.com http://www.tulippoplarhoney.com http://www.springhoney.com http://www.fallhoney.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:02:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jo=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E3o?= Campos Subject: Re: Protein value of coconut pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Does anyone have a figure for or a reference > to the crude protein value of coconut pollen? About 32-35% crude protein, result of tests on pollens of several palmaceae, especially coconut, in Brazil. > Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? That would be REALLY great!! João Campos -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 17:04:33 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: nosema ceranae In-Reply-To: <21e.505bd87.30c9ae3a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris > I last used Fumidil about 25 years ago Your lack of use of Fumidil is similar to mine although in my case probably only twenty years have elapsed, the bees that were susceptible to Nosema having been eliminated. I can see there are possible differences between the Nosema Apis and the Cerana version, which may mean that some bees are susceptible to Nosema ceranae that are tolerant of Nosema Apis (and vice versa), but I reckon that the situation can be brought to stability by the same method i.e.. not treating with Fumidil B and renewing comb regularly. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 13:10:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Can bees fly, etc.? Comments: cc: phwells@earthlink.net, Barry Birkey , Curtis Crowell , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Christina_Melly_R=F8nnestad?= , Ruth Rosin , "Justin O. Schmidt" In-Reply-To: <200512041847.jB4IftmQ018512@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Dec 4, 2005, Isis Glass wrote (not about bees being able to fly): “I recently learned of a study of the bee dances, where a graduate student was documenting how the different modes of dancing relate to distance. The bees were trained to a series of distant sites using sugar syrup.” My comment: That reminds me of a statement by 1947 Nobel Laureate Andre Gide: “Everything has been said [and/or done] before, but since nobody listens, we have to keep going back and begin all over again. What that graduate student did confirms what I did back in the late 1950s when I found a correlation between dance elements and the distance bees forage from their hive. I documented that correlation for my PhD dissertation. I was apparently the first to hear the sounds of dancing bees, recorded them, and sent tape recordings and sonograph displays to von Frisch in 1958. Several years later our experimental results forced me to recognize that correlations do not prove causality and that von Frisch’s earlier work on recruitment to food crops by odor sufficed. On that issue, see: www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/jib2002.htm Isis also wondered: “… how does your understanding of how bees find feeding sources account for their ability to lead recruits to ‘unscented’ food sources?” My comment: This issues comes up repeatedly on BEE-L Also, someone else at about the same time mentioned the hypothesis that Nasanov exudates attract bees to food sources. For a response, we can follow David Hawkins’ advice, when he wrote, “Mathematics is the language of science.” I provide here quantitative results obtained from a simple experiment that any beekeeper can conduct. In fact, it would be a good way to get young people interested in beekeeping and science, an experiment that will yield hard data (results) that apply to both of the above problems. We trained 10 bees to visit a feeding station with scented food; all unmarked arrivals were caught and dropped into a bottle of ethyl alcohol. We tallied each trip by each marked bee, the number of new recruits, and the number of Nasanov gland exposures by regular foragers during each 15-minute period. By this process we gained many hundreds of data points. One variation was to repeat the experiment many days, with a lowered amount of scent in the sugar solution on subsequent days. The results were very clear. Lessening the amount of scent in the food resulted in an ever greater exposure of the Nasanov gland but an ever fewer recruits finding the station. In other experiments we found that ever-smaller amounts of odor in the food resulted in ever more dancing in the hive by regular foragers. By being especially careful about how we prepared the sugar solution (including hot distilled water to gas off any odors during mixing) and how clean we kept the glass dishes (replacing dishes each 15 minutes with clean ones), we eventually managed to end up with essentially no recruits when we used unscented solution — that result occurred despite the fact that Nasanov gland exposure was at an all time high with unscented sugar solution! In one case, we published: “On 25 July 1968, in the absence of a major nectar source for the colony, we received only five recruits from a hive of approximately 60,000 bees after ten bees had foraged at each of four stations for a total of 1374 round trips during a 3-hour period.” For full results, you can access the following: www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/sci1969.htm www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/EXC_NG.htm However, one cannot stress just how readily sugar solution or the feeding station can gain an odor during these experiments. Deodorant use by assistants, crushed vegetation near the feeding station, and many other extraneous odors can give experimenters a false impression that they have had successful recruitment with unscented sugar solution. For instance, bees landing on a dish leave their odor on the glass (body odor). Searching bees can home in on that contaminant odor (hence the need to frequently switch to clean dishes). We published all of our results from such experiments in peer-reviewed journals, but you will be very hard-pressed to find inclusion of those quantitative results in scholarly research papers or volumes (not our failing!). For practical applications of our work with odor and recruitment (in non-refereed publications) see: www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjoct1998a.htm www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjnov1998b.htm www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjdec1998c.htm One can also conduct a very simple experiment to ascertain the attractiveness of Nasanov gland exudates to bees that search for food sources. I make my own swarm lures, with a recipe provided by Justin Schmidt. (These lures are quite effective at getting swarms into swarm hives, as others who have used the ones I make can confirm.) I routinely place a fresh lure in a clean Pyrex custard dish on a ledge just outside my office door in the garden. During swarm season, scout bees routinely inspect the lure. However, outside of swarm season, no bees show up at the dish, even during periods of nectar dearth. Should anyone want to repeat such a procedure this coming season, I will be happy to provide some swarm lures free. Just request them from me at my e-mail address rather than post such requests on Bee-L. With all best wishes. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ******************************************************************* "For what a man more likes to be true, he more readily believes." Francis Bacon (1561-1626) ******************************************************************* -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:25:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: nosema ceranae In-Reply-To: <439867A1.7050506@lineone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-743F2678 > Your lack of use of Fumidil is similar to mine although in my case >probably only twenty years have elapsed, the bees that were susceptible >to Nosema having been eliminated. I can only agree Dave. I have never used Fumidil. After I quit buying bees from southern climates, and all the susceptible bees died off, I never really had a problem. I imaging there is Nosema in my bees to some extent. I usually have a few that die in the winter...all poopy. Hardly a reason to go out and give every colony a gallon or two of medicated syrup. The dysentery could also be caused by the length of time my bees have to go some years between cleansing flights. I've seen it be 5 months. Even in those years, when the losses are higher than usual, there is a silver lining. Colonies that can be marked as possible breeders come shining through. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 12/2/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 11:22:21 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Apimondia Pictures In-Reply-To: <94b87fcdeb92ab38e82a59902cf4203e@lifesci.ucsb.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Owing to a mistake that I made in archiving some images, I seem to have lost the photographs that were taken in Paddy Cullen's bar, when several list members met up during the recent Apimondia in Dublin. Can I ask that any of you that were there and took photos, would please pass them to me offlist. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:28:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Apiary Inspection Comments: To: Beekeepers Organic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What is your State Apiary Inspection Program like? How important is it to you? How is it important to the state you live in? If you had to justify the funding of Apiary inspection to the people with their hands on the purse strings what would you say? How about the general public? What would you say to them? Does your state have a full time State Apiarist and/or Inspectors? If not, why not? If you could choose whether an Inspection program exists or not, which way would you vote and why? --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:22:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Michael & All, My favorite nosema story is from the late Richard Taylor. Richard kept saying as Michael Palmer says and then one winter he was wiped out from nosema. All of the readers of Richard's column remember the nosema problem from his Bee Culture column. Michael from his post is not checking nosema levels in his bees (exactly like Richard ). I might add without the use of fumidil nosema would be a huge problem for the commercial beekeeper worldwide without a easy solution. Nosema kills bees in the last two weeks of their foraging lives. What is the cost in lost honey production? Many commercial beekeepers treat spring & fall with fumidil. I do not but I monitor levels and treat if needed. Giuseppe is a commercial beekeeper in Italy running around a thousand hives. Letting the bees die down to those which survive is not the best idea from my view point. I suggested he test to make sure nosema was the problem and what strain. I then suggested he test the nosema to see if resistant to fumidil. If not resistant to fumidil then Giuseppe can control the problem (hopefully) for next season. His next step would be to bring in queens from a known nosema resistant line or set a small yard of his bees aside and bred from the nosema survivors. I personally would bring in new genetics due to the size of the problem. I would not depopulate hives and treat equipment except as a last resort due to cost in labor and lost production. I believe my advice is sound in Giuseppe's case. Especially if Giuseppe is not a queen breeder. He needs to move past the nosema problem as fast as he can. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 14:36:16 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Palmer wrote: > I can only agree Dave. Me too! I used Fumadil in my first year because that was what I was taught. Also used to go looking for acarine - and treated for that. Then gave up all medications and bred from the survivors - losses were not serious. Now no problem with these diseases. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 10:01:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Apiary Inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark Berninghausen asked a series of questions concerning the importance of state apiary inspections that I hope members will take the time to answer. You should know that Mark is one of several Senior Apiary Inspectors for th= e State of New York and that the NYS Inspection Program is part of the State Department of Agriculture but not part of the state Extension Program, whic= h is the responsibility of our Land Grant institution, Cornell University. This is a subject of considerable interest to me, so I look forward to your replies. In considering your replies I hope you will think about how important disease detection and eradication are compared to education. While it is unwise to completely seperate these two, I believe the officia= l NYS programs do just that. Disease control is the Inspection Program, whil= e education is the Extension program (in some states, these two programs are officially combined). That is not to say that the Inspectors are not very knowledgable and helpful beekeepers. Some, but not all, are outstanding in these respects. There are some that think that if a State has money to spend on maintaining beekeeping as a healthy agriculture pursuit that the funds should be primarily allocated to disease control. Others think that the primary use of funds should be Extension programs geared to beekeeping. As beekeepers, what are your views? I hope many are willing to share their views. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 15:07:45 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark, >>If you could choose whether an Inspection program exists or not, which way would you vote and why? I'd invariably vote for an inspection service. My reasons: - helps diagnose diseases such as American foulbrood - bee inspectors are often master beekeepers who can shed light on problems and provide invalueable advice - can check nucs/hives of local beekeepers before one buys them and have the inspection history of fellow beekeeper The last reason is probably most important to me. When I was getting started in beekeeping, I once bought a nice, strong nuc from a local, very reputeable beekeeper. I did not know any better but the nuc had clinical foulbrood when I pick it up... This beekeeper, in fact, once gave a talk on foulbrood to our local bee club. I happily transferred the nuc to a hive and saw it develop nicely over the next 2 months. I was not crazy about the brood pattern and started to look for clues. I asked my bee inspector to verify my growing suspicion... Fouldbrood id was positive needless to say. I've vowed not to buy another nuc from another beekeeper UNLESS I knew him better than my wife :)) and had been in his hives myself over a season or two. Lately, I have not had to buy packages or nucs which, in opinion, is the best course of action. It's good to know if other beekeepers in the surrounding areas are repeat offenders for foulbrood. It's very unfortunate but there are always a few folks who insist on trivializing their foulbrood and don't take serious steps to eradicate it in their operations. You don't want to set up one of your outyards within flying distance of their location lest your bees bring home the scurge !! In fact, I think bee inspector should be obligated to publish lists of beekeepers who fail to eradicate their fouldbrood for 3 years running! I don't mind if someone gets fouldbrood once in a blue moon and takes serious actions to eliminate it. But there are guys out there who cover it up and pass it on without losing sleep over it. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 10:49:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Amy McGlothlin Subject: Apiary Inspection Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed In Massachusetts there is a state inspection program, with a full time apiary inspector and several volunteers in different counties. Problem is, not enough inspectors. When I contacted the state to ask them about a yearly inspection (as mandated in the state ag laws), I was told that they didn't have an inspector for my area and unless I thought I was having a problem, not to worry about it. I guess if I thought I had AFB they would come out. . . I don't think inspection is a bad thing. It always helps to get a second opinion on how you think your hive(s) is/are doing. I just wish they had enough people to really make it work. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:13:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd Spear wrote: You should know that Mark is one of several Senior Apiary Inspectors for the State of New York This is a subject of considerable interest to me, so I look forward to your replies. As beekeepers, what are your views? I hope many are willing to share their views. Mark's reply: Lloyd, Thanks for that reply. I have no problem with your reporting on my position as an Apiary Inspector. I believe that I have mentioned it ion the past on Bee-L. Like you say though "what are your views?" Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 11:30:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: nosema ceranae In-Reply-To: <001d01c5fccb$fc77d6c0$13bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3E10F01 > Richard kept >saying as Michael Palmer says and then one winter he was wiped out from >nosema. And was Richard raising queens from his "survivor" stock...you know about survivor stock, right Bob? Or, was he buying stock from places they don't have a winter? > Michael from his post is not checking nosema levels... I'm not checking with a microscope, true. But the results don't lie, either. >Letting the bees die down to those which survive is not the best idea from >my view point. Not all die off but the survivors all at once. It's a gradual process, until finally the problems are minor. > or set a small yard of his bees aside and bred from the nosema survivors. Exactly! > I would not depopulate hives and treat equipment except as a last resort due >to cost in labor and lost production. There are others on this list that have treated infected equipment with Acetic acid. If I remember correctly, the cost was minimal. Dave C would know, as it seems to be a common practice in the UK. I think from your reply, that we're actually on the same page, Bob. It's just that you speak Missouri, and I speak Vermont. Or something like that. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 12/2/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:31:39 +0100 Reply-To: gcaboni@hotmail.it Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Giuseppe Subject: nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Peter, bob and thanks to all for the interest. Until 4 years you make the nosema was not a problem in Sardinia where I work (google heart poiter 39°21' 43.23"N, 8°59' 32,03") and I am also a breeder of Queens, but and much difficult one to characterize the characteristics for one resistance to the nosema. The climatic conditions and season influence them in determining way the development of the spore, the protein deficiency and the weakening of the immune system of the bees had to the varroa are other important and determining points in the development of the disease. These are of the factors that render the much difficult selection we of stocks of resistant bees (I?m use only the spinola ligustica race) when it is succeeded to characterize the role of the indispensable genetic for the resistance of the disease is easier to select the bees also for the eventual resistance to the varroa, but hour not is like this.The disease nosema is ubiquitaria in the world. I do not understand as never it comes only used the fumidil for its control. Perhaps because simply and the only product that à one effectiveness? And a great problem also why we work with organic systems. Some person never tried for some years we use it of the thymol? Or fear that the future of the biological one is more and more black? Salutes and a particular thanks to anyone will have to say something Excuse for my bad English Very thanks Giuseppe caboni bob have arrived you the photos? Giuseppe Caboni Cooperativa Apistica Mediterranea 09026 San Sperate CA ITALY __________________________________________________________________ TISCALI ADSL Solo con Tiscali Adsl navighi senza limiti e telefoni senza canone Telecom a partire da 19,95 Euro/mese. Attivala subito, I PRIMI DUE MESI SONO GRATIS! CLICCA QUI: http://abbonati.tiscali.it/adsl/sa/1e25flat_tc/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 12:39:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike asked about Richard Taylor's bee stock. Richard was an important friend. He occasionally purchased queens, but mostly relied on 'walk-away splits', and on supercedure. In many regards I think he developed his own little mini-strain that was well-adapted to the Taylor system of managing bees. That was largely devoted to production of comb honey. Varroa took Richard out of beekeeping. These pests, coupled with his age, took all of the joy out of his beekeeping. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:51:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: nosema ceranae In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051209111722.012a56c8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike Bob & all > I'm not checking with a microscope, true. If you do... You will find Nosema, it is not that it is present that is the problem, it is endemic as far as I can tell. I have no problem in losing a few hives in order to eliminate those colonies that will totally succumb. In fact if I were to tot up the cost of Fumidil and the cost of cleaning the equipment that got soiled while I was using it, I would be surprised if it was not more costly to mask the disease's presence. > There are others on this list that have treated infected equipment > with Acetic acid. If I remember correctly, the cost was minimal. > Dave C would know, as it seems to be a common practice in the UK. It is not costly in terms of acetic acid fumigation, but I used to scrape everything down and scrub with scouring powder as well, followed by caustic soda (lye). It was this laborious cleansing that would be considered costly, but only in terms of labour, not materials. The need for cleaning and the colony losses disappeared completely in two or three years. Once the losses were out of the system there was only one case of colony death due to Nosema in the entire rest of the time (about 17 years). Losses while the weeding out was going on probably amounted to about 3% per year. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 11:43:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: nosema ceranae Comments: To: gcaboni@hotmail.it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Giuseppe & All, > I do not understand as never it comes only used the fumidil for its control. The simple answer is nothing has ever provided the control of fumidil. None of us like the high cost of fumidil but every other treatment has fallen short. If you had said you were only seeing nosema in a few yards the recommendation might have been different but when the problem is widespread like you said you have to act fast. Your choices are limited. I keep bees for a living and will fix a beekeeping problem with antibiotics or chemicals if needed if the best solution to keep me in business. I used chemical strips for varroa for years with success knowing I most likely would have to replace all my comb. When a varroa tolerant bee became available I replaced all my comb and switched over to varroa tolerant bees. Much of the U.S. beekeepers problems today can in my opinion be traced back to contaminated comb. Instead of buying new trucks etc. commercial beekeepers should be investing in clean brood comb. My friend Michael Palmer can give his opinion on why Richard Taylor lost his hives to nosema but the bottom line is Richard Taylor did not see the nosema problem coming and got burnt. If he had he could have used fumidil (that fall) and saved himself a lot of grief and embarrassment in his column. Giuseppe sees the nosema problem as growing and serious. Thymol will not kill nosema. Has been tried before Giuseppe. >and a great problem also why we work with organic systems. I was an organic grower for many years until I got tired of seeing my trees die. Now I use IPM methods. I treat if needed only but keep all options open. >Excuse for my bad English I believe I am understanding you. Basta nosema! Many thanks for the information and PDF files you sent me! Your friend, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 10:19:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <14A32556-406A-4537-B18D-AB004E8DC503@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Have you thought about being one of those Volunteers? Have you thought about spear heading a campaign to have more full time state inspectors? Amy McGlothlin wrote: In Massachusetts there is a state inspection program, with a full time apiary inspector and several volunteers in different counties. Problem is, not enough inspectors. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:37:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, Quite a bit of research on nosema has been done and published. We know that nosema is the silent killer of bees. Why do you think the largest beekeepers in the world are the largest buyers of fumidil? Research has shown that workers lives are shortened by two weeks when nosema is present in large numbers. Even when there are no outward signs of nosema. Beekeepers treat for nosema for other reasons than just winter loss. The small beekeeper may not care but the large beekeeper sees keeping nosema in check a wise investment. My own research with nosema has shown me you do not need to treat spring & fall or even every year. As a commercial beekeeper I would most likely treat once a year in fall if I did not test. Simple testing puts money in your pocket when dealing with all beekeeping problems. Why treat when you don't have to? > I would be surprised if it was not more costly to mask the disease's presence. Two weeks of a foragers life X thousands of bees is a big loss in honey production. Estimates of a third to half a crop loss have been said by researchers. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 12:31:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20051209.070747.1485.62002@webmail34.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark's reply: Perhaps checking nucs should be an area of our main focus in the spring. I'm sure that most people who sell nucs would object, not because of the possible presence of AFB, but because of the extra handling of an already fragile colony. Nucs, IMX(in my experience) are usually quite tight. The danger of rolling bees is greater in a nuc than it is in a full sized colony. I would think that we aught to be able to certify the health of the parent colonies and the other colonies of the seller of nucs. This isn't up to me, for sure. You could have influence over the policies of the Inspection Program by letting your feeling known to NYS Dept. of Ag&Mkts in Albany. There is an Apiary Industry Advisory Committee that advises the Commissioner of Agriculture on matters concerning the Beekeeping Industry of New York State. You might make your feelings known to them too. The AIAC is made up of a fruit grower from NY, a commercial beekeeper, a sideline beekeeper, a hobby beekeeper, Dr. ! Nick Calderone from Cornell and some others. "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: - can check nucs/hives of local beekeepers before one buys them and have the inspection history of fellow beekeeper . When I was getting started in beekeeping, I once bought a nice, strong nuc from a local, very reputeable beekeeper. I did not know any better but the nuc had clinical foulbrood when I pick it up... Mark's reply: Unfortunately this happens more often than it should. If you are putting your newly purchased nuc into new equipment then in all likelyhood you did buy your first case of AFB. In the future try to get an agreement with your supplier to the effect that if your colony comes down with AFB in the first season there should be some refund coming your way. You can know your supplier very well and things happen when least expected. It's good to know if other beekeepers in the surrounding areas are repeat offenders for foulbrood. In fact, I think bee inspector should be obligated to publish lists of beekeepers who fail to eradicate their fouldbrood for 3 years running! Mark's reply: The work that we do and the data we collect is supposed to be confidential. Therefore we can't publish such a list. Your best source of info like that is your local bee club, the Long Island Beekeepers Association. And still, the buyer be ware. Mark p.s. I hope that I deleted enough of the original post, but left enough so one could see what was being responded to. mwb at sqkcrk --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:19:07 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lloyd Spear wrote: You should know that Mark is one of several Senior Apiary Inspectors for the State of New York Mark's reply: This is very true. I am one of three Senior Apiary Inspectors of New York State. Being a Senior Apiary Inspector means that I have supervisory responsiblities as well as actual colony inspection responsibilities. All Apiary Inspectors in NY are seasonal employees, even the Program Supervisor. This means that we are hired every year for the season. Since 1986 this has meant, for me, that I have had a job with the state for about 6 months every year. Except for the years '96,'97,'98 and'99 when there were only 2 of us working to certify the health of some migratory operations. It's my understanding that the NY beekeeping industry didn't support the program therefore it wasn't funded. Now and for the last 5 years it has been. Many people are envious of persons with state jobs. Would you be envious of a state emplyee that only has a job half the year and therefore family health insurance half the year. I'm not asking anyone to cry for me, just trying to let you s! ee if not the whole story at least the way it looks from here. One guy (not Lloyd) at the State Meeting in Syracuse, last week, was comparing Apiary Inspector salaries to School Teachers, along the lines of how nice it is to have a job that pays so well that you can afford to take off for 6 months like the teachers do for the summer. It ain't so. Ain't no one taking off for the winter here. I have to do other things to stay afloat. So do teachers. I try not to take comments like that personally, but guys like Pete make this job interesting in a negative way. Most people are polite, if not down right pleasant. The majority of the beekeepers that I deal directly with are happy to get an inspection and someone to talk bees with. There's lots of travel involved. One sees parts of the state that they otherwise wouldn't and meet people one otherwise wouldn't. Many nights away from home for some and many miles on your own truck or car. But I like it or I wouldn't do it. Enough already, Mark(the currently unemployed Apiary Inspector hoping to return to it in May, '06) --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:07:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jeffrey Hamelman Subject: Re: Honey prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "mark berninghausen" > What we need is an end customer who is willing to pay more for our product. If you want to keep bees and then gripe about not getting enough income to cover the cost of doing business, well you might be a farmer. Mark, At the risk of heaps of ire raining down on my head, I, a mere hobbyist who has had the bees for about 25 years, would like to (timidly) express an opinion. I find that so much honey tastes terrible, so sharp and unpleasant in the back of the mouth. I love the flavor of my honey, and it's not simply a vanity thing (after all, I simply stole it). But I never heat my honey (a big advantage for a hobbyist I guess). And to me, the honey that always tastes best, with lots of lingering layers of flavors, is raw honey (not to mention its medicinal properties). Honey that is treated is a distortion of the real thing, and of course, it is precisely this kind of honey that most consumers taste. It does not surprise me that consumption figures are low. When the Greeks called honey the nectar of the gods they surely meant raw honey. Most of the stuff on the supermarket shelves is something else entirely. I don't write this to ruffle feathers; it is simply my observation of a possible reason for the lackluster enthusiasm in this country for honey. Jeffrey Hamelman Hartland, Vermont -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 22:08:41 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark, >>I would think that we aught to be able to certify the health of the parent colonies and the other colonies of the seller of nucs. This would go a long way towards giving the buyer some peace of mind. The brood frames placed into nucs are typically augmented with frames from storage. Hopefully, these are not infested with AFB spores... If the seller has had a clean bill of health for 3 years and does not use TM or such, then there is high probability that the nucs don't have strong AFB potential. :) >>If you are putting your newly purchased nuc into new equipment then in all likelyhood you did buy your first case of AFB. When I inspected the nuc with the selling beekeeper - really a nice person and well respected in the bee club - I saw brown liquid in some cells and the smell was not like my original colony. This was my second year with bees and I had heard of foulbrood but had not seen it! Now I know what I saw and will not make the same mistake again. >>In the future try to get an agreement with your supplier to the effect that if your colony comes down with AFB in the first season there should be some refund coming your way. The supplier did offer to replace the bees (to give me another nuc) but I declined for two reasons: 1) I still had to deal with the ABF I already purchased, and 2) how would I know the next nuc did not have AFB (spores)?? I will not buy from this beekeeper again. >>You can know your supplier very well and things happen when least expected. Sure. I myself would never sell a problem to a novice or an experienced beekeeper but some other folks don't have the same integrity. It does not matter - IMHO, novices should be advised not to start out with purchased nucs because of potential risks they are not trained to recognize and deal with. I assume most nuc sellers have safe nucs but quite a few don't. >>The work that we do and the data we collect is supposed to be confidential. Therefore we can't publish such a list. I know but I think this cloak of confidentiality lets folks with AFB make splits and sell nucs. They often use TM to mask AFB. How often the inspector is not able to verify the infected colony was burned indeed? What is the useful purpose of collecting data if it does not get out there to steer, particularly, new beekeepers clear of potential problems? It's interesting to know if one county has more AFB than another one but it has little practical benefit to beekeepers interested in buying nucs from a clean source. I think AFB statistics on registered apiaries, including my own. :), should be in the public domain. My 2 cents, Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 15:22:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Honeybees Memory - Face Recognition In-Reply-To: <20051126183341.32427.qmail@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Clipped from the article: "New research at Mile End's Queen Mary College shows that bees learn to discriminate between faces and even recognise a specific humans." "The honeybee can also recognise a face from memory that it has seen in the past, the study found." http://makeashorterlink.com/?H11323A4C Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 20:48:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20051209203140.19198.qmail@web32111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1D61402D > > Perhaps checking nucs should be an area of our main focus in the spring. I agree Mark. Especially those coming in from out of state. I would hope that anyone local selling nucs would have had the parent colonies checked. I understand your concern about rolling queens. Why not keep a list of those selling nucs, and check them later in the summer? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 21:12:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20051209122801.61950.qmail@web32104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1D61402D > What is your State Apiary Inspection Program like? Well, I have two state apiary programs to deal with. Both quite different. I live and keep bees in Vermont. The inspection service is under funded, as most are. The inspector doubles as an apple inspector. As a result, he isn't able to inspect all the colonies he might. That doesn't mean he isn't doing a good job. So, he has to budget his time, and spend it where he feels it will do the best good. He mostly inspects hobbyists, migratories, and those with a history of AFB. He's always there for those that have a problem. I also keep bees in New York State. There the program is run quite differently. A large % of the colonies have been inspected, both for AFB, and mite count. In fact, the inspector went through every colony I have in NY. >How important is it to you? I feel the inspection programs are invaluable. It's like having a second pair of eyes, and the time to look. Over the last few years, I have stopped using antibiotics. All my equipment has cycled through the bees at least twice. All my apiary reports came back clean. I now have a starting point where I can say my equipment is clean. Imagine the importance of that. I want to thank those in charge, for spending the time and money. Well done. > If you had to justify the funding of Apiary inspection to the people > with their hands on the purse strings what would you say? Try explaining it in terms they might understand, or be familiar with. I keep my bees in dairy country. The health of the herds is of utmost importance. There are cattle diseases that if left unchecked, could destroy a large portion of the industry. Brucellosis is such a disease. Hoof and Mouth is another. When these diseases are found in a herd, the herd is destroyed. Period. And, the neighbors' herds may be destroyed as well. While these diseases won't spread to the human population, the economic losses to the community can be huge. Same scenario with AFB. Huge possible losses for not only the beekeeper, but also for orchards and farms requiring pollination. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 22:55:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: George Fergusson Subject: Pollen Bugs In-Reply-To: <20051209211907.38676.qmail@web32111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Perhaps you've seen deadouts before with piles of yellow-orange powder (looks like curry powder) on the bottom board and sifting down the combs. These critters are responsible: http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/pollen_bugs.jpg I apologize for the photo- I'm not setup for taking pictures through a microscope. It's about 50x magnification and shows the interior of a single honey comb cell- you can see the cell outline. These critters are really small. There were probably a hundred of them in the cell, crawling around. They wouldn't stand a chance in a hive with bees so I wouldn't consider them a threat at all. On the contrary, they seem to be nature's way of making sure good protein doesn't go to waste. Just curious- does anyone know anything about them? George- -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 22:51:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: nosema ceranae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Giuseppe sent me some pictures of his operation and his operation runs 2500 hives instead of a thousand. Also a large queen rearing operation. Sorry for the mistake Giuseppe! Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:24:51 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: nosema ceranae In-Reply-To: <001901c5fcf8$04b3ac20$1dbc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob > Research has shown that workers lives are shortened by two weeks when > nosema is present in large numbers. I have no argument with that statement, but 'large numbers' of nosema only occurs because it is allowed to build up to a higher background level by the use of Fumidil, and then those bees that are susceptible explode with nosema, flooding all other colonies with higher than background levels Eliminate those susceptible colonies and the problem goes away... The number of colonies actually susceptible is very low. However a different situation occurs if the numbers of susceptible colonies is high due to inappropriate breeding... Then you will lose large numbers of colonies. For all sorts of other reasons I would recommend raising of queens on a local basis, to suit local conditions, I think nosema (and susceptibility to it) is yet another reason for local queen production, but nosema has hardly crossed my mind since I stopped Fumidil use. > Two weeks of a foragers life X thousands of bees is a big loss > in honey production. If they are bees with short lives in the first place you will get a big hit by losing two weeks... Perhaps it is time for US breeders to look at length of life of workers rather than sheer numbers ? I have never conducted any tests on this, but productivity of my colonies in my conditions did not change (up or down) when I stopped using Fumidil. I get the added benefit of not having to buy sugar to make syrup, to feed the Fumidil in, but that is another issue, although the reasons are still grounded in local bees for local conditions. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 04:17:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051209204426.02b37438@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer wrote: Why not keep a list of those selling nucs, and check them later in the summer? Mike --Mark's reply: Good idea, but the sellers of nucs would have to tell us who they sold nucs to or the buyers of nucs would have to tell us which colonies were nucs from what supplier. We (the Dept. of Ag & Mkts) only here about these transactions when there is a problem. Anybody want to volunteer to let us know that they sold nucs and who bought them? Not a bad idea Mike, but people have to be willing to cooperate. And you know how that goes. I'll pass this idea up the line. Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 08:29:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Howard Kogan Subject: Apiary Inspectors Dear Members; I have been a hobby beekeeper in NYS for 5 years and I thought that the inspection service was defunct! I think inspections are a very good idea and I would gladly welcome an inspector. Who is being inspected? Is it a state supported service available to anyone or only to commercial beekeepers? Does this mean hives are being registered in NYS? Is their a website where further information is available? my best, Howard Kogan-thinking if you inspect my hives, I'll give you lunch! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 06:22:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Apiary Inspectors In-Reply-To: <200512101329.jBADP9JW018031@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Howard Kogan wrote: > my best, Howard Kogan-thinking if you inspect my > hives, I'll give you lunch! > Howard, That's the best idea I've heard yet. First of all, I'm not an inspector. But, if the inspectors in your state are anything like they are in Alabama, few and overworked, they are very helpful to those they inspect. I for one would gladly buy lunch for the inspector who inspected my hives and advised me on procedures to follow to improve my operation. How about the rest of you? Would you be willing to buy/provide lunch/dinner or breakfast to your state bee inspector? Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 06:30:18 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20051209161351.6206.qmail@web32111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alabama currently has two inspectors, one for the north part of the state and the other for the southern part. According to the head honcho the state is going to hire two more this year, to facilitate the anticipated load of inspecting all colonies going out of state for pollination and for the inspection of those same colonies upon their return. Each colony will have to have its queen marked and shown to the inspector and that same queen is supposed to be in the hive upon the hive's return into the state. Hey guys, how fast can you find your queens? I think I have a solution for a quick confirmation of the queen but nobody's asked me for my opinion yet. Think I might just wait and see. What would all of you guys out there suggest as a quick inspection sollution when the queen has to be observed? Oh yes, how have the two inspectors done in the past. They try to inspect all the registered hives in the state and any they might come across in their travels. I think if they are not allowed to inspect that they have the right to get local autorities and confiscate the hives. I'm not really sure on this part but that is the impression I got. Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:05:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Apiary Inspectors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Howard Kogan-thinking if you inspect my hives, I'll give you lunch! Unfortunately, the NYS Apiary Inspectors cannot accept lunch or anything = for that matter, avoiding possible conflict of interests. I always have = a cooler with various libations from water to lemonade and iced tea, and = perhaps a beer or two or few. I offer freely, my inspector cannot = accept. He won't even let my buy coffee at a convenient store when we = first start out in the morning. =20 I make a point to be available when my hives are inspected, for a number = of reasons. First, I know where my yards are and they're easier to find = when I'm along. Second, if anything is found I want to be there to see = it first hand. Third, my inspector is very knowledgable and can teach = me things. He knows a lot of the industry folks and a lot of the local = beekeeping history and I'm happy to pick his brian. Finally, although a = self-proclaimed curmudgeon, I like the guy. I enjoy the afternoon or = two it takes to inspect my hives and I don't have to worry that he's = going to suck down all my beers! I'm also aware that he reads this = list. =20 As far as selling/buying nucs, I firmly believe that if one sells nucs = they must be confident that their hives are clean. I sell nucs and am = confident I do not sell problems. However, I also dust with TM. There = is a possibility that I could be selling a problem that I don't know = exists. I tell my customers up front that they are buying frames from = an operation where antibiotics are part of the practice and warn them of = the potential if they choose to stop medicating. I have never heard of = a problem, and I follow through with queries to my customers at the end = of the season. I have offered my customer list to my apiary inspector, = and am sure he knows I sell nucs. I have nothing to hide. =20 Aaron Morris - I ask, I tell. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:44:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 8 Dec 2005 to 9 Dec 2005 (#2005-330) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The State of Tennessee has no formal inspection program. In fact with the losses in the apiary division a few years ago, while we have a "State Apiarists" I am not 100% sure there is anyone to inspect even if you request it. Used to be you could call up and an inspector would come see you when he was in that section of the State. Once that position was gone, well.... I know there is a program or was a program here where "experts" in clubs would inspect and get a fee from the state for the inspection. But wether its still going or not I cant say, maybe someone on here will know. There is no legal requirement for inspection, nor registration of hives, so its pretty loose here. Tim Leoma Tennessee -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:04:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Shaw Subject: Tennessee Apiary inspection status In-Reply-To: <147.52c35356.30cc43cf@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My local association, "Memphis Area Beekeepers Association" has at least one, maybe more, "expert(s)" available to inspect hives on request by the beekeeper. There is some money paid him from the state (TN). My apiary (back yard!) is also registered with the state, as required. There is a form available but I just called and registered over the phone. I believe a lot of beekeepers are not registered and many may not know of the requirement. The States funding in this area seems to have gone from minimal to even less. See: http://www.state.tn.us/agriculture/regulate/apiary/ Dick Shaw Memphis, TN Down to one hive and looking to increase (again) this spring. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 13:04:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20051210143018.25178.qmail@web53411.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-18D72D73 > Hey guys, >how fast can you find your queens? And Hey guys, how often do your bees supercede? Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 13:10:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Apiary Inspectors In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C10DB@UAEXCH.univ.alban y.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-18D72D73 > I have offered my customer list to my apiary inspector.. And, that's the way it should be. But, if the state really wants to keep track, it should be written into the apiary law. Especially now with AHB moving around the south. Of course there will be those that cheat, but at least it's a start. Mike > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:34:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Honey prices In-Reply-To: <003d01c5fd0c$fe3be460$6601a8c0@jefferya8sisex> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jeffrey Hamelman wrote: I find that so much honey tastes terrible, so sharp and unpleasant in the back of the mouth. It does not surprise me that consumption figures are low. When the Greeks called honey the nectar of the gods they surely meant raw honey. Most of the stuff on the supermarket shelves is something else entirely. Jeffrey Hamelman Hartland, Vermont -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- Mark's reply: You make a good point, Jeffrey. Make a good quality product at reasonable cost available to your customer and she will buy it. At least one pound per person annually according to what I hear. One of the things that I remember from college was a statement from our marketing class. Find a need and fill it and you will be a success. You may have identified a need (market) and are able to fill it. There are a few honey packers who are getting into the "Raw" honey packing and selling business. They seem to be willing to pay more for the honey than the other packers. Maybe the big guys should follow suit and start a "Raw" honey line. I put raw in quotes because comb honey to me is the rawest honey available. IMO. Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:00:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20051209.140855.18334.80842@webmail28.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "waldig@netzero.com" wrote: >The supplier did offer to replace the bees (to give me another nuc) Mark's reply: I meant money back to you. > novices should be advised not to start out with purchased nucs Mark: I usually do caution against buying used equipment. Nucs from a reputable supplier should be safe. But how does one know? >I know but I think this cloak of confidentiality lets folks with AFB make splits and sell nucs. They often use TM to mask AFB. Mark: Yes this is true and any seller of bees period should be willing to tell the buyer what sorts of treatments were used in the bees for the last 12 months or so. But again, who do you trust? > How often the inspector is not able to verify the infected colony was burned indeed? Mark: When AFB is found by an Apiary Inspector and is verified by lab tests the diseased material is supposed to be burned under supervision of the Apiary Inspector. In other words the inspector is supposed to be there when it is burned. Sure some people jump the gun and proceed without the inspector but not all that often. All that said, Long Island is somewhat a special case. Hard to get to, with independent minded people who, like some from another part of the state, think that they should be able to police themselves adequately.According to the number of cases found in the last 2 years, I would say that some folks aren't even able to police their own operations, let alone the whole island. >What is the useful purpose of collecting data if it does not get out there to steer, particularly, new beekeepers clear of potential problems? I think AFB statistics on registered apiaries, including my own. :), should be in the public domain. Mark: I couldn't agree more. I gave a talk on AFB at a meeting of the Southern Adirondac Beekeepers Association (SABA) about a year and a half ago. The topic was AFB. I started off my talk in the fashion of Alchoholics Anonymous, Hi, my name is Mark, I have AFB. My point was, Let's get over the stigma of AFB. If you are going to be a beekeeper you either have had AFB or you are going to get AFB. It's best to learn as much about it as you can so you can protect the rest of your colonies once you find the first case. But the shame? Get over it. Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:14:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Apiary Inspectors In-Reply-To: <200512101329.jBADP9JW018031@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Howard Kogan wrote: ; >> I thought that the inspection service was defunct! Mark: Nope, very much alive, in season. >>Who is being inspected? Mark: Everyone that we can get to. >>Is it a state supported service available to anyone or only to commercial beekeepers? Mark: Not just for commercial beekeepers. >>Does this mean hives are being registered in NYS? Mark: Manditory registration is not in effect in NY. Registration of apiaries in NY is done to keep track of who has bees where. Is their a website where further information is available? Mark: For more info and to register for an inspection next season call the Dept. of Ag & Mkts in Albany at 1-800-554-4501 and ask for Melissa (Isn't that appropriate?) in Plant Industry. She'll add you to the list for next year. If this doesn't work for some reason, e-mail me at sqkcrk@yahoo.com and I'll do what I can. >>thinking if you inspect my hives, I'll give you lunch! Mark: That would be nice as long as you aren't trying to influence me. You gotta be careful these days. Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:37:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20051210143018.25178.qmail@web53411.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Stoops wrote: >>Alabama currently has two inspectors, Mark: Is that all? Are there any county inspectors? Ohio used to have 6 State inspectors and 80 county inspectors. >> Each colony will have to have its queen marked and shown to the inspector and that same queen is supposed to be in the hive upon the hive's return into the state. Mark: I imagine that this is to be able to check the spread of AHB? Colony health isn't dependent on "seeing" the queen, only the evidence of her work or lack thereof. I may or maynot see your queen, though I do see quite a few of course. >> I think I have a solution for a quick confirmation of the queen but nobody's asked me for my opinion yet. Mark: What's your solution? I'll buy you lunch the next time we meet if it's a good one. >> What would all of you guys out there suggest as a quick inspection sollution when the queen has to be observed? Mark: I'm not sure. I know that it takes me a long time to find my queens and sometimes there she is on the first frame that I pull out. I would imagine that having the queen tagged will be a big help to your inspectors. How about a microchip that could be scanned with something like a bar code reader but wouldn't have to be visually set off? Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 13:07:16 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051210130321.0129eac8@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Palmer wrote: >>And Hey guys, how often do your bees supercede? Mike Mark: Not sure. Are you? I'll bet more often than we think. Seems like I heard Dave Miksa say something about requeening after every nectar flow. But maybe he just wanted to sell queens. I was getting some of my colonies ready to go south today (yeah right, brrr). One of the weak colonies is in a 6and 5/8 super. When I stood it on end, preparing to put it on top of another weak colony in a deep super, what did I see but a torn down queen cell. If the temperature had been better I might have looked tosee if there is a queen there. But it's not. Besides, the other colony should be queen right, right? Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 18:23:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: bob darrell Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection In-Reply-To: <20051210121751.51676.qmail@web32109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v728) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Dec 10, 2005, at 7:17 AM, mark berninghausen wrote: > > Good idea, but the sellers of nucs would have to tell us who they > sold nucs to or the buyers of nucs would have to tell us which > colonies were nucs from what supplier. We (the Dept. of Ag & Mkts) > only here about these transactions when there is a problem. Hi Mark and all The 'Ontario Bees Act' requires a permit before bees or hive equipment can be sold or moved. We have a Provincial Apiarist and several bee Inspectors(one or more for each county or group of counties), The selling permit involves an inspection of all yards from which bees will be sold and includes a check of Varroa and Traecheal mite levels. There is no charge for the permit or inspection. If AFB is found, no bees can be sold from infected yards until 3 years after the yard is found to be clear. Bees cannot be imported into Ontario(from other provinces, or countries) without a permit. Bees going to blueberry pollination in Quebec and New Brunswick are inspected before leaving Ontario(requested by Quebec as all bees are passing through their territory) and again on returning to Ontario. I am not in favour of all the government involvement in our lives but appreciate the work of the Provincial Apiculturist and his Inspectors. A list is published each year or all queen, nuc, cell, and hive sellers showing their status regarding mites and diseases. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:22:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Apiary Inspectors In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051210130601.02b04e70@pop.together.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Michael Palmer wrote: > But, if the state really wants to keep track, it should be written into the apiary law. > Especially now with AHB moving around the south. Of course there will be those that cheat, but at least it's a start. > Mike > We'll find those who cheat sooner or later, probably sooner. 'Bout the first time they go out to work an Africanized hive with the equipment they normally wear, we'll be hearing from them or they won't work that/those hive(s) any more. That or they will wipe out the entire colony. Would like to be a fly on the wall when they discover their altered colony. Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 00:49:20 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Never forget a face? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed European research led by Melbourne vision scientist Dr Adrian Dyer found a honey bee can be trained to recognise a face. Bees were given a choice of approaching photos of human faces, one of which had a sweet solution. They learned which face had the solution and flew back to it. Further tests showed the bees were still able to recognise a face after two days. http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au * * * Knowing honeybees' unusual propensity for distinguishing between different flowers, visual scientist Adrian Dyer of Cambridge University in Cambridge, England, wondered whether that talent stretched to other contexts. So he and his colleagues pinned photographs of four different people's faces onto a board. By rewarding the bees with a sucrose solution, the team repeatedly coaxed the insects to buzz up to a target face, sometimes varying its location. Even when the reward was taken away, the bees continued to approach the target face accurately up to 90% of the time, the team reports in the 2 December Journal of Experimental Biology. And in the bees' brains, the memories stuck: The insects could pick out the target face even two days after being trained. Dyer says the results challenge the idea that a specialized part of the brain is necessary to recognize a human face. "You see things in humans which you might attribute to having complex, mammalian brain, but until you go and test it in bees, you can't exclude the fact that a simple brain can do it." It's a "neat study" that shows that bees are smarter than most people think, says cognitive neuroscientist Michael Tarr of Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island. But he believes the task the bees completed doesn't have much to do with how humans recognize each other's faces: "If they had used potatoes, I suspect they would have obtained the same result." Ethologist James Gould, who has done extensive research on how bees recognize flowers, agrees that humans have a specific evolutionary reason to be able to identify other people's faces, whereas for bees, it's just another shape and pattern. "For bees, faces are just a really strange looking flower," he says. http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 23:02:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Re: Can bees fly? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I looked at the url given below in a BEE-L post.It is fairly sarcastic..It starts out with this statement: "Some people seriously do not believe in science, apparently because their alleged faith in an alleged God is so weak that science threatens their capacity for Faith." ---- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian M. Wenner" To: Sent: fly? ss > On Dec 5, 2005, at 9:05 PM, Dick Allen wrote: > >> Here are some interesting remarks on Bumble Bee flight, faith, and >> science: >> >> http://www.paghat.com/beeflight.html > The learned author of the above statement about God/faith/science might be suprised to know that most of the founders of the modern scientific diciplines were Bible-believing scientists. Robert Oppenheimer, who was probably closer to being the father of the A-bomb than anybody else, readily acknowledged the fact that modern science was built on a biblical worldview (he was Jewish, but not very religious, as far as I know). Being from North Alabama near Huntsville and feeling the rumble of blasts from the testing of the Saturn rocket as a kid, the name Werhner Von Braun has some meaning to me. He was a staunch creationist and promoted the teaching of creationism in school. He was incredulous when confronted by evolutionists. When asked what proof he had there was a God, he responded that it was (I quote) "like asking to use a flashlight to look at the sun." He absolutely did not believe in evolution. Look at the little honeybee, her wings beating hundreds of times per second, her "software" having within it provision for teaching her how to fly and how to respond to wind and rain and other environmental conditions. Think of the immense complexity involved in the programming of the different behaviors that the bee develops as it goes through different functions in life, and how these must be coordinated with other honeybees in the hive to be of any value. And these are only the fringe of the marvels apparent at the macroscopic level. When you get down to the cellular level you enter into a world of "machines" that absolutely transcends in scope and sheer elegance anything that modern science is even close to producing. How many tries in the evolutionary history of the honeybee did it take to create these behaviors and wonderful characteristics of the honeybees physiology? Where is this evidence in the fossil record? (The aforementioned author says that creationists believe that "the devil made fossils to fool us", perhaps he also believes that creationists dug up all the transitionary forms to destroy the devil's work!) Also remember that the bees were having to adapt to the flowering plants that are alleged to have evolved "fairly recently" (supposedly a few million years ago). I was raised believing in evolution (fell for the molecules to monkey diagram) and used to also have a kneejerk reaction of mockery (and pity at times) to nonbelievers (in evolution). The evolution of my unbelief in evolution may have religious implications, but is not predicated on "religious" suppositions. One reason i am including this in BEE-L is that i often read here how this and that characteristic might have evolved, without including one iota of evidence (unless you include vivid imaginations ). I hope you are open to another view, like Copernicus was, as he confronted the Ptolemaic view of the universe embedded in the Church (as were other Greek traditions.) I don't care to argue about this, but I would like to make my view known, as others have had the opportunity to do so here. John Horton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 00:06:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Bettis Subject: Trade labor for bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Will work for bees built in my equipment. OR, ID, WA, and Northern. CA. Have experience with queen rearing and splitting. Michael --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 04:16:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: Apiary Inspectors In-Reply-To: <20051211002231.54329.qmail@web53401.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Stoops wrote: --- Michael Palmer wrote: > But, if the state really wants to keep track, it should be written into the apiary law. > Especially now with AHB moving around the south. Of course there will be those that cheat, but at least it's a start. > Mike > Stoops: We'll find those who cheat sooner or later, probably sooner. Mark's reply: Perhaps not, Mike. We had a case here in NY where, on this list, someone put out the idea that they had been stung by AHBs and they didn't report it to the apiary inspection program and therefore no samples were obtained to verify one way or another. Turns out the beekeeper depopulated the colony(ies) himself. Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:22:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Empire State Honey Producers Association winter Meeting RE ESHPA Meeting I happened to be lucky to attend the meeting and hear Dr. Seeley's talk. Actually, I have been interested in his work with Feral Hives in the Arnot Forest since I first heard about it. I didn't think then that the bees were isolated enough to develop characteristics any different from the run of the mill bees in the area. There are a large number of bee hives surrounding the forest which belong to commercial beekeepers. Dr. Seeley went to a lot of trouble to capture swarms from these bees. These swarms seemed to do well in the single story bait hives that he caught them in and he left them high in the trees where the swarms were caught. These bait hives had normal comb drawn on normal foundation, so the swarms did NOT build their own combs. Most of them survived winter and did not develop high levels of mites. He thought the reason must be due to heritable mite resistance so he set up an experiment where he raised queens from the ferals and tested them alongside some commercial stock. However, the ferals did NOT show mite resistance in his experiment. There must be some other factor at work that allows the wild hives to make it, where commercial hives can't. My own view is that the reason they survive has to do with either the fact that they are isolated from other bees instead of being kept in apiaries like we have, -- or it's due to the annual swarming that feral hives do, which may purge the colony of mites. Obviously we can't put our hives high in trees separated by a quarter of a mile. But I wonder if dividing the hives annually might replicate the effect of swarming, and prevent the rapid build-up of mites. Peter Borst Danby NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:21:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Can bees fly? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: John & Christy Horton > I looked at the url given below in a BEE-L post.It is fairly > sarcastic..Itstarts out with this statement: > > "Some people seriously . . . " Paghat is known in various internet circles for having a spirited way with words. you are not the first one she may have irritated, nor will you be the last. > The learned author of the above statement about God/faith/science > might be > suprised to know that most of the founders of the modern scientific > diciplines were Bible-believing scientists. I guess one has to ask, since many of those folks grew up in religeous communities (as many communities were and are), how should that surprise anyone? And how does that invalidate the concepts of life evolving? People cannot be correct on all counts, they are, after all, only human. >the name Werhner Von Braun has some meaning to me. > He was a > staunch creationist and promoted the teaching of creationism in > school. He was a rocket scientist, not a biolgist or a paleantologist. That is like saying that I should be invited to critique some fo the recent advances in rocket science. Well, this is America, I can critique it, but who in their right, or left mind, listen? >How many tries in the evolutionary history of the > honeybee did it take to > create these behaviors and wonderful characteristics of the honeybees > physiology? And this statement illustrates the fact that many people simply do not understand modern concepts of evolution. Nothing was "trying" to become a bee. Pick up some Gould or Dawkins, or preferable both - their interactions with each other are at least entertaining. But it might give you a better idea abo0ut how evolution is supposed to work. This nonesense about things trying to be other things, evolution working towads more complex life forms is passe to say the least, and simple inaccurate. > Where is this evidence in the fossil record? (The aforementioned > authorsays > that creationists believe that "the devil made fossils to fool us", I have heard that very argument. > Also remember that the bees were having > to adapt > to the flowering plants that are > alleged to have evolved "fairly recently" (supposedly a few million > yearsago). Actually it is a heck of a lot longer than that, angiosperms have been around since at least the cretaceous. And many peleobotonists now beleive that it was the expansion of the hymenoptera that lead to the ascention of the angiosperms. Lets keep our dates and theories and facts strait. Don't give false info and then debunk it. Put the straw men away with the thanksgiving/halloween deocrations we are onto Christmas and Chanuka now. > The evolution of my unbelief in evolution may have religious > implications,but is not predicated on "religious" suppositions. Interesting - so how did life come to be? Aside from evolution, is there another secular argument? I don't care to argue about this, but I would > like to > make > my view known, as others have had the opportunity to do so here. I agree, no point to arguing, but this is a discussion forum, so there is no reason we cannot discuss it, and at the end of the day, either learn something (hopefully) or at least have had a lively entertaining exchange. Barring that we can agree to disagree and have an eggnog. I like a little extra cinnamon on mine. Regards, Keith "If we are going to teach creation science as an alternative to evolution, then we should also teach the stork theory as an alternative to biological reproduction." Judith Hayes -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:47:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: QUOTES!~!!!@~!~! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Look folks. Quotes. Here we go again. =20 Whether you quote an entire article, or whether you quote a bit of a = passage, respond, quote some more of a passage and respond, quote some = more, respond some more, ... byt the time all is said and done, when an = article is thus written and submitted, quotes is quotes. =20 I am tired of making this point. I do not care for my role as gate = keeper. I do not like being between a rock and a hard place = (administrators who insist I conserve space and subscribers who simply = refuse to curb their quotes). =20 =20 The last post was as much quoteing as it was ew material. It is the = last such post that will appear on BEE-L -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:46:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Can bees fly? Comments: To: Keith Benson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Benson wrote: > this is a discussion forum, so there is no reason we cannot discuss it, and at the end of the day, either learn something Eileen Crist summarized it in the journal "Social Studies of Science"... on one side, how behavioral scientists have conceptualized the honeybee dance as a linguistic system. On the other side, she explained how the dance upset deep-seated assumptions about the "great chain of being," with man and other higher mammals at the apex and invertebrates in the basement. Author Crist said her analysis suggests that "if one really does not believe that a small honeybee has language capability, then apparently no evidence may ever suffice to prove its existence." excerpt: > In this paper I investigate the scientific understanding of the honeybee dance language. I elucidate the implicit and explicit reasons why the honeybees’ communication system has been referred to as a ‘language’, and examine the ways this designation has entangled the themes of animal mind and human–animal continuity. I end with an investigation of a scientific controversy surrounding the honeybee dance language. I argue that this controversy was a battle over assumptions regarding insect capacities, and a willingness or unwillingness to abandon those assumptions in the face of a phenomenon that undermined them. Can an insect speak? http://sss.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/34/1/7 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:59:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Empire State Honey Producers Meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> There must be some other factor at work that allows the wild hives to make it, where commercial hives can't.<<< Hello Peter and all, Tom came to our club a month ago or so. While he said there are 5 = or so hives on one edge of the forest I didn't hear that there were many = commercial beekeepers. You're from NY. Am I wrong? One more possibility = he mentioned was that perhaps the mites, in the forest, had evolved to = what would be a climax condition for them. It may be that they are = non-virulent. They no longer kill off their host.This is what they would = do if left alone. Every hive dead of mite infestation is a dead end for = the mites as well. The tests were done with mites from his yard. Dick Marron Thinking that the last thing a fish would discover is water. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:00:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: Empire State Honey Producers Association winter Meeting In-Reply-To: <200512111522.jBBF5JEZ015581@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-48A64581 > But I wonder if dividing the >hives annually might replicate the effect of swarming, and prevent the rapid >build-up of mites. When Acarapis was devastating out colonies, Webster found that his over wintered nucs wintered better than the parent colonies. It seemed that it was something about the nature of these small colonies. Probably the ratio of bees to brood...too much brood hatching to be reinfested by the young female mites. He has found the same thing happening with Varroa. The nucs overwinter successfully, while the parent colonies do not. Again, it seems to be the nature of these little colonies.I'm guessing because of the delayed brood cycle not allowing the population of Varroa to explode. Similar in effect to your Arnot bees swarming, and rearing new queens. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:32:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Steve Bonine Subject: Re: Apiary Inspectors In-Reply-To: <20051210142257.42026.qmail@web53414.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Would you be willing to buy/provide lunch/dinner or breakfast to your state bee inspector? I'd love to, but I don't expect to ever get the opportunity. I believe that we made it up to six inspectors here in Minnesota last season, and even if they're all full time (which I don't think they are) there's no way that I'm going to see one way down here near the Iowa border with my status as hobby beekeeper. I wonder sometimes whether the inspectors' time is better spent visiting the commercial operators, who know what they're doing or would be out of business, or inspecting us newbies who may be the breeding ground for all the bad stuff. But why should I expect to have my education in beekeeping paid for by state tax dollars? As much as I enjoy the opportunity to take advantage of expertise from the likes of Marla Spivak at the association meetings in St. Paul, it's hard to justify three hours on the road to attend such meetings. Those of you who have lots of local contacts and mentors should be very thankful for the resource. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:32:24 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Apiary Inspection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Does this mean hives are being registered in NYS? As far as I know apiary registrations are voluntary for the most part. From what I hear, perhaps 50% of apiaries are registered. About an equal number of beekeepers have enrolled in our local bee club. The numbers flactuate from year to year. In my neck of the woods, most registered apiaries get inspected. Those that don't it's because the owner or the sites can't be located. Sometimes the inspector runs out of time as he's been asked to help inspect in adjacent areas. Beekeepers only benefit from registering and getting hives inspected. The service is free. Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:28:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Empire State Honey Producers Association winter Meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Dr. Seeley.... These bait hives had ... normal foundation, so the swarms did NOT build their own combs. Most of them ... did not develop high levels of mites. Low mites in the 1st season are not unusual. In fact, creating artificial nucs reduces mites in the parent colony by some 50%. The observed colonies need to be tested over several seasons. >>...the ferals and tested them alongside some commercial stock. However, the ferals did NOT show mite resistance in his experiment. There may have been mite invasion into the ferals with drifting bees or due to robbing with the commercial hives were near by. Ferals on standard foundation may succomb to varroa pressure. >>My own view is that the reason they survive has to do with either the fact that they are isolated from other bees instead of being kept in apiaries like we have... Very possible. Yet these ferals carried mites as I recall. Sooner or later the mites will overwhelm bees UNLESS they are kept in check. The natural cell size gradation may be a factor. In this case, there may have been low virus counts as well. >>But I wonder if dividing the hives annually might replicate the effect of swarming, and prevent the rapid build-up of mites. I read that making up artificial nucs with most of the brood from the parent hive, halves the mites in the parent hive. This was a short term measure and it was not enough to control the mites to ensure winter survival. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:22:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Can bees fly and science/faith? Comments: cc: Barry Birkey , artlevin@hotmail.com, barbaramargerum@cox.net, Robbin Thorp , sciencejournal@wsj.com, phwells@earthlink.net, mwilk@cox.net, Ellen Jackson , page@lifesci.ucsb.edu, Jenny Dugan , colin3@juno.com, "Anne H. Rojas" , donandjuan@att.net, bram@lifesci.ucsb.edu, martin shapiro , Marian Shapiro , "Roger S. Schlueter" , "Gretchen E. Schafft" , John Richards , allen@lifesci.ucsb.edu, Ron Wilma , dkcgeo@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John Horton wrote (in very small part): "The learned author of the above statement about God/faith/science might be surprised to know that most of the founders of the modern scientific disciplines were Bible-believing scientists." In my extensive reading of biographies of ground-breaking scientists during these past few decades , I don't find Horton's statement to be true. I thus appreciate Keith's subsequent comment, "Lets keep our dates and theories and facts straight." For me, "founders of modern scientific disciplines," include scientists such as Galileo and Darwin, both of whom were forced by evidence to reverse their previous commitment to religious dogma. Darwin is a particular case in point, as covered in many publications. On 19 September of this year, for instance, John Darnton wrote an essay for the Los Angeles Times about Darwin entitled, "The devolution of a believer." In that essay Darnton described the trauma Darwin experienced, in part as follows: "Darwin was paying the price for following the dictates of scientific principles to their logical end. When he began his career as a naturalist, he was a believer — originally he wanted to become a country vicar — but he followed his formidable intellect wherever it led, and it caused him to become the instrument that would overturn the hallowed dogma of Western religion." We can turn to some of Darwin's own words of 1876 on this matter (from page 141 in a 1958 biography by Nora Barlow): " "From my early youth I have had the strongest desire to understand or explain whatever I observed, — that is, to group all facts under some general laws. ... As far as I can judge, I am not apt to follow blindly the lead of other men. I have steadily endeavored to keep my mind free, so as to give up any hypothesis, however much beloved..., as soon as facts are opposed to it. Indeed I have had no choice but to act in this manner... I cannot remember a single first-formed hypothesis which had not after a time to be given up or greatly modified. This has naturally led me to distrust greatly deductive reasoning in the mixed sciences." I marvel at how closely I have been forced to follow the same philosophy (without any real regret). My guiding principle that has evolved in bee research: What bees really do is far more important than what we would like them to do or what dogma ("fixed idea") dictates that they should do. We scientists must heed ALL facts (as Darwin insisted upon, above) and not "follow blindly the lead of other men" if we are to advance scientific knowledge. That stubbornness has not come without a great price, but I sleep well at night! Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm ************************************************************************ ***** * "People believe a 'fact' that fits their views even if it's clearly false" * Sharon Begley, Wall Street Journal, 4 February 2005 ************************************************************************ ***** -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:33:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: wintering nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fairview College in Alberta did some experiments with overwintering 6 frame nucs with success. Seemingly the infested bees and most of the parasites get left with the parent colony. There is a beekeeper in Fairview that overwinters only nucs, around 4,000 l think. Peter Keating ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Palmer" > > When Acarapis was devastating out colonies, Webster found that his over > wintered nucs wintered better than the parent colonies. It seemed that it > was something about the nature of these small colonies. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:52:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: More on quotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peater Keating's last post could have cut quotes in half: Regarding overwintered nucs Michael Palmer speculated, "there seemed to = be something about the nature of these small colonies." Fairview College in Alberta did some experiments with overwintering 6 = frame nucs with success. Seemingly the infested bees and most of the parasites = get left with the parent colony. There is a beekeeper in Fairview that overwinters only nucs, around 4,000 l think. Peter Keating -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 23:56:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells Hi Guys, >I'll tell you what. Those of us who have umpteen gadzillion dollars locked up in the large cell foundation and equipment are going to be mighty indignant if we have to change to the smaller cell size to beat the varroa.... That's true for sure. My friend, a large scale commercial beekeeper in hix 60's, asked for some advice. He has thousands of migratory hives and tens of thousands of deep supers filled with large cell broodcomb. And all of that comb has been exposed to mite treatments for over a decade. His hive surround mine and have been devastated by mite two times in the past. Yards with forty hives were left with a couple of very weak survivors. Now it's happening again inspite of the multiple treatments being used. What kind of advice could I give him? Well, I shared how important the clean broodnest is. How much better hives overwinter, build up in the spring and are more productive. I shared how small cell allows me to keep my broodnests clean. I suggested he use a mite treatment, like oxalic, that doesn't contaiminate the broodnest and would control the mites. And then see if it provides the kind of mite solution he needs. And that he should start a few small cell test hives. At some point, when his other hives are stable again, he will have enough experience to evaluate whether it's worth the cost of converting to small cell, or a clean large cell broodnest, or just using something like oxalic and maintaining his course. I'll bet a beekeeper is more terrified/depressed than indignant when his hive count go from thousands to hundreds because of the mites. I've met some of them in California who lost their entire outfits because, after spraying, fuming, dipping, etc. everything to control the mites, they still lost all their hives. They are now truck drives, etc. and not working bees at all. I expected my commercial friend to grab onto the oxalic and push the clean broodnest options into the future. Treating is just so easy. But he is interested in a long term solution, as he has been let down by the pesticide treadmill three times now. And he enthusiastically, wants to start a small cell test. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 06:56:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Empire State Honey Producers Meeting > One more possibility he mentioned was that perhaps the mites are non-virulent I don't know how you would test this. I have been to the Arnot Forest, it's not far from my home. There are a lot of bee hives around there, although not in the forest. But it is not very large, there aren't large patches of wilderness around here any more! Like I said, I think it has to do with the bees' swarming. You have a serious break in the brood rearing in both the swarm and the parent. Some European researchers experimented with this, I don't know what they found. Peter Borst Danby NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:29:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Science/faith? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian M. Wenner wrote: > I don't find Horton's statement to be > true. (Please, Aaron, don't get after me for excessive quotes!) Adrian, your post was not too convincing either. The problem with discussing faith and science is that it has become either/or while, in truth it is both. You can have a strong appreciation for the scientific method and have a firm belief in Christ. Just because a scientist challenges church authorities does not make him/her a non-believer. Nor does a Christian who challenges church authorities on matters of faith lose his/her faith. History has more martyrs in that category than any martyred scientists. There is a myth that has developed about the separation of faith and science. Truth is until the mid 1800's most scientists were strong in the faith. The separation of the two started later in the 1800's when archaeologists said they could not find a correlation between civilizations in the Bible and historical evidence. It was not until the mid 1900's that the civilizations described in the Bible were authenticated. But the damage had been done. The shift started and moved into to the opposite extreme, faith was totally discounted which is just as bad as completely discounting science. Add to that the antipathy toward religion that now exists in academia and you have where we have come to in the current debate. Any who have been on this list for any length of time know I am a strong supporter of the scientific method. What you may not know is I am an evangelical Christian who values my relationship with Christ more than life. I look at the universe God has given us as a great puzzle where we in science have only found some of the edges, the easy part. There is an excellent book, Finding Darwin's God, that encompasses much of what I believe about evolution. What I find interesting in the book is our concept of God. Our understanding of Him has gone from a very simple understanding of a simple God, to a God that is far beyond our comprehension. In the same way, the Universe has gone from simplicity to a level of complexity that just gives scientists more problems to solve for every one they think they have solved. It is the same in most of science. This list is a mirror of that. When I was in the Navy, topics that were forbidden in the Wardroom were sex, politics and religion. So what is left? The weather? We contentious humans have even made that a argument generator with global warming. We will not solve the problem of science and faith on this list. We might solve it with the knowledge that God does love us and we should love each other (as I was reminded by another on this list). Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:00:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Can bees think?; was: Can bees fly? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anyone interested in what is going on inside bees' or any animals' minds will find this book interesting. She takes great pains to present the whole story, not just a certain side of it, although she finally rejects the mechanistic approach to the study of animal behavior. It's part of the human personality, though, to try to use "machine metaphors" to model everything from weather to animal behavior, because: *We make make machines, therefore we know can understand them*. Apparently, no machine is too complicated for humans to "reverse engineer". Witness the code-breakers of WWII, to name one instance. However, we are also conscious, so we understand consciousness a bit. It is perfectly logical to suppose animals have some level of consciousness, because they have neural networks similar or identical to ours and produce representations of their world like we do. Whether it is instinctive or not is not the main thing. The point is that bees use symbols to represent the world, which is a hallmark of imagination (the making of images). * * * Images of Animals Anthropomorphism and Animal Mind Eileen Crist "A tension is built into the foundations of the pursuit of knowledge about animal life, for it is heir to both the cartesian verdict of an unbridgeable hiatus between humans and animals and the Darwinian affirmation of evolutionary continuity. The consequence of an intellectual and cultural heritage of opposed visions of the relationship between animals and humans is that the problematic of animal mind — whether affirmed or refuted, celebrated or doubted, qualified or sidestepped — is ever present, perhaps even the heart of the matter, in behavioral writings. Representations of animal life, whether intentionally or not, are always addressing what is for Western thought a most engrossing mystery — the contentious topic of animal mind or animal consciousness." —From the Introduction -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:41:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Empire State meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter wrote, (Re: non-virulent mites) >>>I don't know how you would test this.,,, Considering all the difficult things researchers do, it shouldn't be too = hard. Set up some bait hives and catch the mites with the swarms. Then = you study their reproduction.=20 If it turned out to be true, my question is... how do we make use of the = information? Breed truckloads of the weaker mites and distribute? They = did something like this with fruit flies in Ca. They bred a strain where = the males were infertile and dumped them into the population, making it = difficult for many females to "find a good man" and propagate. Dickm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:54:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Human Face Recognition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All The abstract appears below. Interesting -- the press in each country has=20 claimed this as ' their' scienctists. Note that Germany, U.K., and=20 Australia were all involved. Not a one person or one country effort. Honeybee (Apis mellifera) vision can discriminate between and recognise=20 images of human faces Adrian G. Dyer1,2,*, Christa Neumeyer1 and Lars Chittka3 1 Institut fur Zoologie III (Neurobiologie), Johannes Gutenberg=20 Universit=E4t, Mainz, 55099, Germany, 2 Clinical Vision Sciences, La Trobe University, Victoria 3086, Australia 3 School of Biological Sciences, Queen Mary, University of London, London,= =20 E1 4NS, UK * Author for correspondence at present address: Department of Plant=20 Sciences, University of Cambridge, Downing Street, Cambridge, CB2 3EA, UK=20 (e-mail: a.dyer@latrobe.edu.au ) Accepted 13 October 2005 Recognising individuals using facial cues is an important ability. There is= =20 evidence that the mammalian brain may have specialised neural circuitry for= =20 face recognition tasks, although some recent work questions these findings.= =20 Thus, to understand if recognising human faces does require=20 species-specific neural processing, it is important to know if non-human=20 animals might be able to solve this difficult spatial task. Honeybees (Apis= =20 mellifera) were tested to evaluate whether an animal with no evolutionary=20 history for discriminating between humanoid faces may be able to learn this= =20 task. Using differential conditioning, individual bees were trained to=20 visit target face stimuli and to avoid similar distractor stimuli from a=20 standard face recognition test used in human psychology. Performance was=20 evaluated in non-rewarded trials and bees discriminated the target face=20 from a similar distractor with greater than 80% accuracy. When novel=20 distractors were used, bees also demonstrated a high level of choices for=20 the target face, indicating an ability for face recognition. When the=20 stimuli were rotated by 180=B0 there was a large drop in performance,=20 indicating a possible disruption to configural type visual processing. Key words: visual processing, face recognition, honeybee, brain -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:54:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lanfeust Subject: Small Cells vs Clean Wax In-Reply-To: <43952476.40508@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >"I think that much of the positive aspects attributed to the small cell bees > >can actually be attributed to the lack of pesticides in the hives equipment. > >Clean wax is almost everything." > And how do you think I keep my hives free of pesticides and my wax clean > which is almost everything? > My personal anecdote : I have been keeping bees since summer 2000. I used apistan in one hive only and in autumn 2000 only. Since then, I never used anything else than OA and FA (no accumulation in wax). Brood frames replaced every 5 years or less. Now I have a dozen hives. I think I can say my wax is clean, at least in 11 hives witout doubt. I am used to count varroas falls. I am afraid clean wax only does not prevent varroa reproduction nor varroas population increase. Hervé Laval, Qc, Canada -- Hervé www.emelys.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:45:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Even insects express anger, terror, jealousy, and love -- Darwin Comments: To: "Adrian M. Wenner" Speaking of Darwin, he was an acute observer of animals and a believer in animal mentality. In his 1976 book The Question of Animal Awareness, Donald Griffin suggested that animals could have conscious minds like those of humans and be capable of thinking and awareness. The idea had been proposed by other scientists, including Charles Darwin who wrote a book on the issue. Charles Darwin (1809-1882) used mentalistic terms freely when describing, for example, pleasure and disappointment in dogs; the cunning of a cobra; and sympathy in crows. Darwin's careful anthropomorphism, when combined with meticulous description, provided a scientific basis for obvious resemblances between the behavior and psychology of humans and other animals. Darwin's own words: Actions of all kinds, if regularly accompanying any state of the mind, are at once recognized as expressive. These may consist of movements of any part of the body, as the wagging of a dog's tail, the shrugging of a man's shoulders, the erection of the hair, the exudation of perspiration, the state of the capillary circulation, laboured breathing, and the use of the vocal or other sound producing instruments. Even insects express anger, terror, jealousy, and love by their stridulation. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:23:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Human Face Recognition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>When novel distractors were used, bees also demonstrated a high level of choices for the target face, indicating an ability for face recognition. The next question is: with their face recognition, do bees develop preferences (or, worse, animosity!) for certain faces...? :) Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:32:10 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: European Working Group -- Small Cells Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Well, I shared how important the clean broodnest is. I received a call last summer to remove a colony from a church building. A parishoner had treated the colony with a wasp spray the year before killing off all the bees. The next spring a swarm moved in to set up housekeeping. I received the call in July. When I arrived the nest contained less than a 1/2 lb of bees. No queen, zero brood, several combs of sealed honey. It was really strange. I saw white powdery wasp spray residue on the bottom of the nest. I assumed the residues made the queen sterile or killed it. Probably the same thing happened to any queens the bees tried to raise afterwards... It does not take much chemical residue to impair or kill a queen. Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:05:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Honey Super Cell's plastic 4.9mm Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: Recently new information was posted on the OrganicBeekeepers discussion group concerning another small cell product coming shortly: Waya received and posted the following information:Mr. Hamby replies: > You could tell everyone that we anticipate the testing of the mold to be done 12/25 to 1/1. Hope to enter production the first of the year. > > --Mark Quote from following URL supplied by Keith Malone: "The dimensions of the cell are as follows: OD includes the cell wall - 4.9mm, ID is 4.3mm. The cell count is 2250 cells per side." http://www.honeysupercell.com/product_info.php?cPath=14&products_id=42 http://www.honeysupercell.com/popup_image.php? pID=42&osCsid=2c2e9b519cbfe73db9b9c972c06d43e6 Looking at the picture I counted 70x42 rows of cells that multiplied out to 2940 cells per side. It would be good to obtain a sample. Although these might or may be correct cell size dynamics I see them only good for the core of a brood nest because other comb cell size dynamics are missing such as drone cells and storage cells. They would also be good for regressing colonies to entrain cell memory so bees could draw wax out better. Now with this posting, we would now have available in small cell sizing: 1. waxbased foundation 2. crimp-wired foundation 3. Honey Super Cell small cell 4.9mm comb Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 19:21:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Honey Super Cell's plastic 4.9mm Comb In-Reply-To: <20051212230536.98236.qmail@web51613.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi to all you keen minds: "The dimensions of the cell are as follows: OD includes the cell wall - 4.9mm, ID is 4.3mm. Reply: Now the initial post is there, note the ID is 4.3mm here. Question: Knowing the injection mould for the side walls is probably doing this and would prefer to see the sizing more inside of 4.7mm to 4.8mm..... For an initial fast regression down, knowing that bees too big now will go smaller........... Will bees too small (noting that worldwide normal lowest range is about 4.6mm) then now go bigger.....? But it the mean time.......with 2-4 combs for a jump start to immediately change a colony shaken down over and get a queen laying/brood turned, and then maybe waxbase foundation around to jump to maybe a better SC sizing.... What are your thoughts for saving colonies with it? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:34:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: Small Cells vs Clean Wax In-Reply-To: <1134410080.2246.249608421@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Herve and Everyone, >I am afraid clean wax only does not prevent varroa reproduction >nor varroas population increase. > >Hervé >Laval, Qc, Canada > > That's been my experience, as well, when my bees are on large cell size comb. But small cell sized comb allows a colony to tolerate the mites. Such a hive doesn't need mite treatments which would contaiminate the comb. And contaiminated comb can cause lots of problems such as poor overwintering, early queen supercedures, poor mating, lack of colony vigor, poor spring buildup, etc. When beekeepers first began switching to small cell comb, many observed that the problems noted above disappeared. It was attributed to small size of the cell/bee. But when I put small cell bees on clean, large cell comb, they didn't develop those kinds of problems. They had all the 'advantages' of small cell EXCEPT MITE TOLERANCE(caps for emphasis). And they required treatment to survive after the first season. I used oxalic to keep the wax as clean as possible. My web page states that, and anyone can read it at: http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/sunr.htm I appologize for any misunderstandings I may have created. (now for my rant) But I've had more than a little help along the way, for I have been selectively quoted, out of context, in another post, by another author(not Herve) on this list. My intent of those words quoted, were 180 degrees from what they were misrepresented as meaning here. And I can't believe anyone who could read my webpage, would use my words, in the manner they were used here, through an ignorance of the English language. Does such behavior make a person feel clever or superior? It might on a college campus. But it would sure flunk out in a company of adults.And it's a sure demostration of character. I know that such behavior isn't constructive. It only causes problems, expecially on an international level. And it wastes lots of time. Maybe, after all, that was the author's intent. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 06:40:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Honey Super Cell's plastic 4.9mm Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dee & All, Fully drawn has been tried before and will not work for me. Been there and done that! Fully drawn to me has always been the idea of people which have never ran many bee hives or have got knowledge of the ways the bees work. Also unaware of the methods commercial beekeepers use plastic foundation. We like the added strength of the comb,the ease of cleaning out deadouts and the ease of removing large patches of drone comb. We do not like the acceptance level at first by the bees and the slowness of getting drawn as compared to pure wax foundation with *extra wax* which the bees simply draw like a potter would using the wax on the comb instead of wax made in glands. A large experiment is being done in California this year on almond pollination with fully drawn plastic comb. 2000 Australian packages are being installed on fully drawn plastic comb (not sure if the maker discussed here). My opinion was asked by the Australians (they are very happy to provide the packages (not free of charge of course) for the test even though I advised if the test is a dismal failure the drawn comb people might try to blame your packages).. I said the project is a big gamble in money and I believe will produce poor results in the end and a small testing of say 100 hives would have been what I would have done first. 4.3mm. is at the bottom end of what you could ever get mellifera to except. Way off from what I consider to be correct for my area 5.1mm. (and what your graph Dee on Beesource shows is correct for my area)..Also if waxed dipped what would be the inside id. (4.1 or 4.2)? What would be the diameter in 10 years due to scale (3.8 - 4.0) ? what about in 20 years ( 3.5-3.8)? Abscounding happens with at times package installation. Queens fly but like many swarms will simply reject the new equipment . Especially if wood and plastic with no prior hive smell. They move to a tree and send out scouts. I still rub peach leaves on the inside of new boxes when all equipment is new. I run a small orchard and the bees prefer the peach tress by far as places to swarm to! I might poke my nose into what is going on in California. I would be interested in knowing the weight difference between fully drawn plastic and fully drawn wax. If lighter (which I doubt) then the migratory beekeeper might be interested but if heavier then might be a serious drawback as weight is getting to be a big concern for beekeepers doing almond pollination. As many as 30-40 hives are being left off semi's regularly because of weight. Lighter weight wood is being tested. Over gross is serious at weight scales as the extra weight (hives & pallets) have to be unloaded for the load to get back on the highway and then a truck has to come and pick up the colonies. A load of our bees NEVER leaves our area to we see the load is below the gross limit of 80,000 pounds. I will try to keep and open mind and have added my opinion as my friend Dee asked. Hopefully the drawn plastic will work for beekeepers. The plastic sheet foundation has been creeping up in price instead of going lower which is upsetting many commercial beekeepers. Some have returned to regular foundation. Hopefully the new fully drawn will be cheaper than sheet plastic foundation (in your dreams!). Another drawback for migratory beekeepers would be the plastic frame itself. Most use plastic foundation in a wood frame so the frames do not shift around as much. Also when the end breaks ( even the new Pierco's break at times) the frame is trash! I asked a couple friends what they thought and sadly I can't put in print on a family list what they said. One did say he might be interested in five years if still on the market and a beekeeper not selling the stuff is having success (or if I test ). Don't kill the messenger! Sincerely, Bob Harrison -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 06:50:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: beemakrmee Subject: Re: Extra wax In-Reply-To: <002301c5ffe2$6119cde0$09bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison wrote: "pure wax foundation with *extra wax* which the bees simply draw like a potter would using the wax on the comb instead of wax made in glands." Do you buy this foundation with "extra wax" or do you dip it yourself to get the extra wax on it? I'm kinda new at this so bear with me if I sound kinda silly asking such a question. I've always heard that if you don't know the answer then it's not a silly question. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:34:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: drawing wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Concerning drawing wax foundation to make comb, beemakree asked " Do you bu= y this foundation with "extra wax" or do you dip it yourself to get the extra wax on it?" The answer is 'neither'. The folks who make foundation (largely just Dadan= t and Kelley) have learned how much wax to put on a sheet to 'make it work'. It doesn't take much, but it seems to be 'the more the better'. But, it is also not that simple. For example, I have seen Pierco frames almost yellow with wax, and still the bees hesitate to draw it. As another example, the #1 difficulty of those using a plastic base to get comb honey (a la Bee-O-Pac and Halfcomb) is that the bees do not want to draw it out *unless the flow is very strong*. A friend likes to say that "if the flow is very strong, the bees will draw comb on concrete", which is probably true, but the desire is to also get them to draw comb on 'normal' flows, which is wha= t we have most of the time. Beekeepers have little difficulty getting bees to draw comb from beeswax foundation, but inevitably 'some' difficulty getting them to draw comb on plastic, even when it is coated with beeswax. For brood combs, I only use plastic foundation coated with beeswax, in wood frames. It is worth th= e added difficulty. Hope i have helped, Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:35:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Extra wax > Do you buy this foundation with "extra wax"? During the seventies, I made beeswax foundation and sold bee supplies at a little factory near San Diego. I can tell you a bit about foundation, as well as beeswax, if you ever want to know. Human made foundation is very thick and clumsy compared to the beautiful thin structure of honey bee comb. Even so called thin foundation has more wax than the bees deem necessary. So -- they sculpt the foundation down to the thickness they want and use the excess wax to form the sides of the cells. Back then, before plastics, we sold a lot of "heavy" foundation. I think this has at least enough wax in it for the entire comb. In other words, using heavy foundation bees can build the entire comb without secreting any wax, and immediately store honey in it. This is at once an energy savings for them, a gain in honey yield for us. It also means that they will build comb under less than ideal conditions. Richard Taylor describes the ideal comb building conditions in his book: "during the midsummer honey flows when the weather is warm". By the way, he used the "shook swarm" method to raise comb honey. It simulates a new swarm that is newly hived. We know that a new swarm is great for getting new combs built. Peter Borst Danby NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:51:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob Harrison Subject: Re: Extra wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do you buy this foundation with "extra wax" or do you dip it yourself to get the extra wax on it? Dadant & Kelley both will do extra wax on request (when they are making foundation) but I am not sure of the amount you need to buy for those people to change the machines. At least a 100 lbs. of foundation I would guess but you would need to ask. The charge is higher but worth the extra charge in my opinion. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:05:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: bees mark nectar sources MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Adrian M. Wenner wrote: > One can also conduct a very simple experiment to ascertain the >attractiveness of Nasanov gland exudates to bees that search for food >sources. Reply: While may species of bees are known to mark nectar sources, this can hardly account for their ability to send recruits to sites many miles distant. I am reminded of the story of the two guys fishing in a lake. "This is a great spot we have here", one says, "How are we going to find it again?" "We'll paint a big 'X' here in the bottom of the boat", says the other. "But what if we don't get the same boat?" * * * Both the honeybee and stingless-bee systems, Nieh notes, mix resumably simple methods, like scents, with fancier ones, like specialized motion. "There are many ways information can get garbled," he says. "It's good to be redundant." The supposedly simpler methods, trailing scent droplets like bread crumbs, for example, could tip off competitors as well as the crew from the home nest. What happens inside a nest, however, becomes much harder for foreigners to observe. Advantageous as that shift inside might be, it does require some way to abstractly represent the larger world. Such a system might develop under pressures of intense competition from other hives. Or, to put it another way, representational language could be just one way of countering espionage. http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc99/4_3_99/bob1.htm * * * Oh, and this: Social bees can deposit specialized glandular secretions, or signals, that allow foragers to revisit rewarding and to avoid unrewarding food sources. However, it is not known if bees can orient towards olfactory cues such as excreta deposited near food sources. We report that Melipona mandacaia foragers (stingless bees) deposit an odor cue, anal droplets, and a previously undescribed ventro-abdominal odor on food sources. Surprisingly, foragers deposited attractive odor marks on good food sources to which they recruited and on poor food sources to which they did not recruit. Foragers left the most anal droplets on dilute food sources to which they did not recruit (1.25-M sucrose solution), yet returning foragers were attracted to anal droplets obtained on poor food sources and presented in bioassays. Foragers were attracted to ventro-abdominal odors obtained on good food sources (2.5-M sucrose solution). Chemical extractions suggest that odor marks contain attractive polar compounds. We also provide the first detailed description of forager waggling and spinning behavior on poor and good food sources. Waggling may be a method of dispersing anal droplets and spinning may help foragers learn local landmarks. from Multi-source odor-marking of food by a stingless bee Behav Ecol Sociobiol (2003) 54:578–586 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:53:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Extra Wax MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My experience with comb honey does not bear out the comment I have read here so far. I have not produced the amount of comb that my friend Richard Taylor has but yet quite a few supers. I have used starter strips which produces the thinnest rib possible, next to no foundation. When I have run out of the thin foundation I have used the various heavier weights and I can tell you there is definitely a difference in the rib thickness ( I consume mostly comb honey). Heavy foundation produces a much tougher mid rib in the finished product. Perhaps my bees are different? :>) Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 08:56:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl David Lehr Subject: Re: Apiary Inspectors - Give em all lunch... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Howard Kogan-thinking if you inspect my hives, I'll give you lunch!> and > Aaron Morris-NYS Apiary Inspectors cannot accept lunch..avoiding possible conflict of interests> First, I would not presume that I could, with a hamburger, steak or even a lobster dinner, influence our Maryland state apiary inspector, assuming first that I would actually want to. Second, assuming that you COULD influence such decisions is to insult the professionalism of these dedicated apiarists. I haven't spent a lot of time with ours but I'll tell you one thing. I seriously doubt anything or anyone could influence him unless he was presented with a factual, logical, reasonable evidence to support your supposition that his inspection results are somehow not accurate. Finally, I guess I'm missing Aaron's point. Aren't they there to help us? To inform? To educate? I personally believe that a burger and coke would be appreciated after a two hour drive one way to inspect 6-10 hives and then drive back. And quite frankly speaking, I think our inspector would gladly eat your burger, drink your coke, thank you for each and still tell you that he found American Foul Broud, Varroa Mite and Small Hive beetle infestations in all of your colonies AND THEN help develop a plan to get your operation healthy and productive as soon as possible. I have to believe, naive as I may be, that the rest of these professionals would do the same. I know I would. Dave Lehr Carroll County Beekeepers Association Westminster, Maryland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:02:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kim Flottum Subject: New Pollination opportunity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Freshly harvested local strawberries may soon be spotted on holiday tables in the mid-Atlantic region. An Agricultural Research Service (ARS) scientist developed a new method for propagating June-bearing strawberry varieties that allows the plants to fruit in the fall, continue fruiting until December, and then fruit again in the spring. This double cropping of June-bearing strawberries is a phenomenon not normally observed in the mid-Atlantic states, where the plants traditionally flower and bear fruit only in spring. The new method of double cropping June-bearing strawberries requires harvesting small plants (called runner tips) from mother plants in early July. Those tips are put into 8-cubic-inch containers and placed under water misters for rooting. Eight-week-old transplants are planted in the field in early September. They will flower and fruit during the same fall. (and bees will help production, no doubt!) With the standard method, runner tips are harvested in early August and planted in the field as 4-week-old transplants. They will flower and bear fruit only during the following spring. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 07:50:36 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: New Pollination opportunity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim that's interesting, thanks. Our area is one of the biggest strawberry production areas in the world, and the strawberry growers don't use bees (although I've heard the honey from them is really good!). Do the new types benefit from pollination? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:50:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Michael Palmer Subject: Re: New Pollination opportunity In-Reply-To: <8518F15BB956014C90B2E2CC0D4C4F9F0150F21E@w2k3telnet.root.l ocal> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6018768B > (ARS) scientist developed a new method for propagating June-bearing >strawberry varieties that allows the plants to fruit in the fall My Great, Great Grandfather, Silas Reynolds Divine, inventor of Double Acting Baking Powder, and Rock-A-Rock underwater blasting powder, grew strawberries in the Neversink Valley of New York State. He cut ice off the pond, covered his strawberry fields with the ice, and mulched with straw. He too, had late yielding berries, after all the local berries had gone by. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/198 - Release Date: 12/12/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 07:56:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Honey Super Cell's plastic 4.9mm Comb In-Reply-To: <002301c5ffe2$6119cde0$09bc59d8@BusyBeeAcres> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison writes: 4.3mm. is at the bottom end of what you could ever get mellifera to except.Way off from what I consider to be correct for my area 5.1mm. (and what your graph Dee on Beesource shows is correct for my area)..Also if waxed dipped what would be the inside id. (4.1 or 4.2)? Reply: Here I heartily agree with you Bob. While I am likeing seeing more small cell products come on board, those doing it, but not knowing the parameters needed by the bees and playing close attention to details of what actual sizing the bees actually make and use, is scary. While this would make a nice seed comb for shaking down packages if it works (my own opinion is it won't very well) it would to me also be too small, and would necessitate the bees having to upsize again to continue immediately, with 4.9mm wax based frames of foundation placed all around them. I could see 2-4 frames in experiment tried this way, but certainly not a whole super due to costs for our honeybees. Meaning here ours even. But for the smallest bees over in India area thereabouts, maybe this wouldn't be to bad for them! Could the moulds been made for them originally and somehow brought over here in purchase? Anway, talk is and I posted it here, it could be on the market here, soon in trials, and another product for small cell beekeeping. But in saying this, while I like the first two with Dadant (normal wax base, and now crimpwired wax base), this one while adding to the products available, might have to be watched to see where it goes. Thanks for replying bob, and by the way, glad you looked at the map and saw your size for honeybees in the size spectrum noted, not that other sizes were also noted too! Will be interesting to see where you end up in the long-haul........... Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:38:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Extra Wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alden Marshall makes excellent points concerning the mid-rib in cut-comb or section comb honey. There is absolutely no question that this mid-rib from foundation is considerably thicker than what the bees build on their own. But I think the discussion up until now has been focused on drawing comb fo= r brood. Foundation for brood is very considerably thicker than foundation for either cut-comb or section comb honey. For example, Kelley's 5 5/8th wide foundation for brood has 10 sheets to the pound while their 5 5/8th foundation for cut comb has 16 sheets to the pound. Kelley's 'thin super' foundation for section comb honey has 28 sheets to the pound...almost 60% less wax than the nearest corresponding foundation sold for brood. For comb honey the idea is to give the bees as little wax as possible, whil= e for brood production the idea is just the opposite! In fact, I know one gu= y who runs 450 hives solely for comb honey and uses the tinyest imaginable amount of beeswax to get the bees started. He is fortunate in that he live= s in an area where he can be almost assured of 3-4 weeks of a great late summer (August) flow. Not many of us are so fortunate. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:10:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Extra Wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike asks if the Kelley Thin Section comb honey foundation would be suitabl= e for cut comb. For section comb production, warping and bending is not a problem as the foundation is well supported. I do not believe it would be a problem for cut comb if slotted top bars were used and the foundation was held firmly b= y running a bead of wax (very time consuming), stapling the top bars together= , or bending over the portion of the foundation above the top bars. The foundation is not at all difficult to handle. We have our frames 'loaded' by high school kids and it goes quickly without breaking. Dadant has a similar product...look for the 28 sheets to the pound. Lloyd -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:38:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: Cleaning dirty wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some time ago I did a search to on cleaning dirty wax and got several good pointers. I just wanted to let anyone else know who might be searching, that what worked well for me was: 1. filtering the hot wax through a double thickness of cotton batting (old scraps work great for this) which is cheap and widely available at discount stores 2. boiling the wax in plenty of water and letting the entire thing sit until cold, then pouring off the water and lots of debris and melting/filering the wax again. 3. doing the boiling water treatment on the wax-soaked batting scraps and getting back lots of wax that was trapped in the fibers. In the past I have experimented with using beauty shop peroxide (stronger concentration) and found it didn't lighten the wax enough to justify the expense and time involved. I much prefer the processes listed above. One post mentioned steam cleaning and a press, but those are beyond my grasp at this time. Thanks for all your help. Christy> -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:50:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: New pollination opportunities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting comments by Kim. But, a lot more than just rooting time/misting is involved. For example, most strawberry varieties are highly dependent on length of day to produce flowers and fruit. While short-day-length varieties have been around for quite some time, the flavor and yields have not been up to par. But if one can get 4X the price as spring varieties, does anyone care? -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:46:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Cleaning dirty wax In-Reply-To: <002b01c600dd$8d4c5440$02e84cd8@HortonFamily> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- John & Christy Horton wrote: > Some time ago I did a search to on cleaning dirty > wax and got several good > pointers. Another pointer that, I think, might work. Pour your filtered melted wax out in thin sheets on a metal surface and let sit in the sun for a couple of days. Mike in lower Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:10:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Rossander Subject: Re: Cleaning dirty wax In-Reply-To: <20051214194602.6148.qmail@web53412.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Stoops wrote about lightening wax by letting it "sit in the sun for a few days". I had heard that before and decided to run a small-scale test of my own this past summer. I took two one-ounce bars of beeswax that were as close in color as I could determine (using the naked eye). The wax used to make them had been previously filtered (using coffee filters). The color was a rich yellow. One bar went into a ziplock bag and stayed in a dark corner inside the house. The other went into a small foil-lined plastic tub (about pint-size). I covered the top with clear Saran-Wrap to keep out bugs, dirt, rain, etc. I left the container outside in the sun for about 4 weeks in northeast Ohio. I don't have a good count of the hours of full sun but we had a nice summer. There were more sunny days than not in that period. The wax outside regularly got hot enough to soften and occasionally to melt so I have confidence that it got enough sun to test the original hypothesis. At the end of the period, I compared the two samples. If there was any lightening in c! olor, it was not perceptible to the naked eye. Mike Rossander --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:15:38 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: James Kilty Subject: Comb starters was Extra Wax In-Reply-To: <003701c6006b$cee6ca10$6500a8c0@BLINE> MIME-Version: 1.0 I use narrow starter strips for comb honey on the grounds that the whole comb will all be from the local nectar and the mid rib as thin as the bees make it. The cutter I have does 5 pieces and what's left can be extracted and the frame returned for the next time, already started. Alternating drawn comb and strips gives a good parallel comb and stacking them one above the other seems to encourage the young bees to work up through the boxes. This year I experimented with Dave Cushman's design of brood starter strips and fishing line "wiring". It will be interesting to measure the cell sizes next time round. This time, since the bees were expanding on to a second box, they drew a lot of drone comb, and removed a significant proportion of the drone brood. This seems quite a promising sign to follow up. -- James Kilty -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:16:48 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Cleaning dirty wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's what I do: After extracting, drained cappings go into a pot with a lot of water, and carefully heated (you must watch continuously) until the wax is entirely melted. Cool, remove wax cake on top and carefully scrape off the debris that clings to the bottom of the cake. I let it cool overnight. Dry, and store wrapped in plastic until ready to process. I don't work with the wax on a regular basis, so I tend to accumulate a fair amount of these dirty wax cakes before I process them once a year or so. Using an electric counter top deep fryer, place one quart of water and 2 cups or so of white vinegar in the bottom (I read that the vinegar helps separate the contaminants from the wax), then add broken bits of wax cake as prepared above. Note that if the wax cake has been stored for some time, and contained a lot of debris, it may get moldy. When breaking up the moldy cake, try to avoid breathing any of the dust (I use a mallet and break up the cake while it's in the plastic bag). When the wax is melted I use a slotted metal spoon to remove some the larger bits of debris, carefully draining off back into the fryer the larger bits of debris then tapping the spoon into the trash. When wax is completely melted the fryer will be bubbling - you must turn it off an wait for the bubbling to stop before final filtering. Filtering is done using a funnel made of galvanized sheet steel, which has soft metal wires wrapped around the surface of the cone running up and down from the rim of the cone to the opening at the bottom. These wire "ribs" are to hold the filtering medium (one paper towel folded into a cone) off the funnel surface allowing the clean wax to drain through more easily. If you've seen melitta coffee filter holders you know the rib effect I try to achieve. The hot wax is poured into the funnel using a small kitchen ladle, while the funnel itself is rigged above either the fryer (to filter the batch a bit before the final pass) or above a small bread pan for making wax blocks. If your cake is not too dirty, there is no need to pre-filter out some of the debris, you can rig the funnel up over where you are going to place the molding pans. Pre-filtering is done by just rigging the funnel over the fryer (it can still be bubbling for this) and filtering the wax back into the fryer. I work on a carpenter's shop bench, so my jig for holding the funnel is an embarrassing combination of scrap lumber and clamps. Line the funnel with a clean sheet of paper towel, carefully ladle the wax into it and let the clean wax filter down into the bread pan. Be careful with the ladle not to pick up any of the water/vinegar mix, only take the hot (dirty) wax from the top of the liquid in the fryer. As the molding pan is filled, switch in a new pan. As the filter empties, or if the amount of debris trapped in the paper builds up, wait until most of the wax has drained out and carefully lift and discard the dirty paper towel, replacing it with a new one to begin again. Sometimes, if it is cold enough, the wax in the paper towel will cool enough to solidify and cling to the sides of the funnel. If you're practised enough you can remove and change the filter before this happens, but if it does carefully heating the outside of the funnel with a small torch (be careful!) will remelt this wax and you can easily change the filter. Tearing the filter out would leave bits of paper in the funnel that would later drain into the clean cake you're trying to mold. I do about six bread loaf pans of clean molded wax before changing out the water/vinegar mix with a fresh solution. I got my fryer at a yard sale years ago and it may look ugly, but this method will render even very moldy stored cakes into buttery yellow clean wax. The next best thing would be some kind of electrically heated funnel that would help the wax drain and make filter changing easier, but I've never seen anything like that. C.Crowell Hightstown, NJ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 07:34:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Even insects express anger, terror, jealousy, and love -- Darwin Comments: To: Isis Glass Dances of Honeybees Hi Isis It seems that we are reading some of the same books! I was lucky to see Donald Griffin a few years back at Cornell. Ironically, over the years he had been chastised for his non-mainstream views, somewhat as Dr. Wenner has been. Even though their views are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue. He died two years ago. From his obit: "While an undergraduate at Harvard in 1938, he and a fellow student Robert Galambos used microphones to prove that bats 'see in the dark' by emitting ultrasonic sounds and listening for the return echoes, solving the mystery of how bats navigate in the dark and catch their insect prey." Donald R. Griffin wrote in his 1976 book "The Question of Animal Awareness": The general feeling that our species is uniquely superior has suffered a series of intellectual setbacks beginning with the Copernican and Darwinian revolutions. Biological evolution is universally accepted by behavioral scientists as a historical fact. Animals are used as surrogate "models" for behavioral investigations on the implicit assumption that principles discovered this way are applicable to our own species. Yet, when questions of communication and language arise, even hard-nosed behaviorists take for granted a large element of discontinuity. To argue that language is unique to man and, therefore, no matter how complex animal communication turns out to be, it cannot be continuous with human language, is indefensibly circular. Later, in "Animal Minds" (1992: Half a century ago, when symbolic communication in animals was unknown and generally believed to be impossible, H. H. Price (1938) conceded that if animals did use symbols we would have to assume that they have minds. Symbolic communication is especially evident in the dances of honeybees. More recently, Marc Bekoff wrote in his 2004 book "Minding Animals": Darwin emphasized the importance of evolutionary mental continuity among animals and learning about the worlds of the animals themselves when he wrote about animal minds. It is narrow minded to believe that we are the only species with minds or the only species that can think, make plans, and experience pain and pleasure. Donald Griffin stressed that it is the flexibility and versatility of behavior that provide strong evidence of animal minds and consciousness. [He] suggested that consciousness evolved to allow adaptively flexible behavior. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 06:57:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Cleaning dirty wax In-Reply-To: <20051214221050.67032.qmail@web51504.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike Rossander wrote:I had heard that before and decided to run a small-scale test of my own this past summer. At the end of the period, I compared the two samples. If there was any lightening in color, it was not perceptible to the naked eye. Mike, Good initial test. I shall try another test this next summer (If I can remember). I think though that you have to get the wax into a thin film for the bleaching effect of the sun to work. But.... That will be a test for another day. Thanks for the feedback. Mike located in lower Alabama (Sun's hotter down here). --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 07:19:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Cleaning dirty wax In-Reply-To: <121520051016.8578.43A142900001744A00002182216037631699019D0C9C079B9D9A0C@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Curtis Crowell wrote:remove some the larger bits of debris, carefully draining ...then tapping the spoon into the trash. As the filter ..... carefully lift and discard the dirty paper towel, replacing it with a new one to begin again. Curtis, You're throwing away money. Take the debris (slumgum) and pour over old pine cones. Use those with a short candle wick emplaced in the pine cone and your old filter paper as firestartes in your wood stove or fireplace. The pine cones can be sold for $0.50 to $0.75 apiece, and the firestarters do sell. Mike located in lower Alabama --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:50:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Interesting article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.rakemag.com/stories/section_detail.aspx?itemID=3D10607&catID=3D= 146 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:16:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Thompson Subject: Re: Interesting article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/15/2005 11:42:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU writes: http://www.rakemag.com/stories/section_detail.aspx?itemID=10607&catID=146 That is an interesting article, Aaron. Once again, "modernism" may obscure the effectiveness of a "natural" product trial. Caused me to think that I've heard little of the preliminary results of NIH's trial of honey bee venom as a treatment for MS. Barry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:26:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Empire State Honey Producers Meeting Comments: To: Peter Borst > I think it has to do with the bees' swarming. You have a >serious break in the brood rearing in both the swarm and the parent. Some >European researchers experimented with this, I don't know what they found. Mr. Borst Thank you for summarizing Dr. Seeley's talk. You are very lucky to have met both Dr. Griffin and Dr. Seeley! I might have bumped into Dr. Wenner in California, but I don't remember. Anyway, I was thinking that somebody could try letting bees swarm regularly and see if the mite buildup were less. That certainly would account for the ability of ferals to survive in the woods, like Seeley, Wenner and others have observed. Unfortunately the only study I could find contained bad news. "In a honey bee population of 150 colonies, the development of an introduced Varroa destructor mite population was monitored in swarming and non-swarming colonies for two years in a Nordic climate. The results demonstrated a reduced mite population as a result of swarming only for the first swarm season studied. In the second swarm season, there were much higher mite levels (based on debris counts of mites) and fewer colonies swarmed, but there was no significant difference in infestation levels of adult bees in the fall between swarming and non-swarming colonies." "Swarming in honey bees (Apis mellifera) and Varroa destructor population development in Sweden by Ingemar FRIES, Henrik HANSEN, Anton IMDORF, Peter ROSENKRANZ" Isis Glass -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 08:50:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Re: Interesting article Comments: cc: Paul Cronshaw , "Curtis R. Skene" In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C1120@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Dec 15, 2005, at 7:50 AM, Aaron Morris alerted us to the following: > http://www.rakemag.com/stories/section_detail.aspx? > itemID=10607&catID=146 Thanks, Aaron. The article about Marla Spivak and propolis was most informative. I downloaded it, cleaned it up, and now have it as a file. Those who wish can contact me personally — not through BEE-L — and I will send it as an e-mail attachment. (The downloaded file lacks the photograph of Marla in action, though.) Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:27:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Cleaning dirty wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by komppa-seppala@CO.INET.FI to = the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove excessive quotes. ----------------- Original message (ID=3D55050EE5) (36 lines) = ------------------- To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" = References: <20051214221050.67032.qmail@web51504.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Vs: Re: [BEE-L] Cleaning dirty wax Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:03:07 +0200 > A one-ounce bar of beeswax went into a small foil-lined plastic tub = covered the top with clear Saran-Wrap and was left in the sun for about = 4 weeks in northeast Ohio.=20 My vax gets easily more white in sun. I see it regulary from burr comb = peaces that are accidentaly left in the ground on the beeyard. Most = likely your Saran-Wrap cut the UV radiation away and therefore you coud = see no effect. Try next time without it. Ari Sepp=E4l=E4 Finland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 07:19:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Chinese Discover America in 1421 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all: Okay, watching PBS TV show last night on chinese discovering the Americas and going around the world in 1421 long before anyone else, and in a fleet of ships many 450 long and carrying with them horses, and all sorts of things, and it accounting for all places civilized showing chinese DNA (even with plains indians and all early places in S. America and N. America (like where columbus first landed). I thought the viking and irish/scottish (MacDawg) were here first and brought things like horses and bees. Now according to this the chinese were here first, building all the early stuff and bringing all the animals. Any of you see the show and have comments on it? I myself found it amusing, but lacking scientific merit in many respects....yet it is due to air again....... Is this a ploy to get things started as to who really discovered America and when and how? and what they brought and traded with them? I would be interested in honeybees by the way........ Respectfully Submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:07:40 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Chinese Discover America in 1421 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "I thought the viking and irish/scottish (MacDawg) were here first and brought things like horses and bees" Sorry, Dee, but before you wonder about A. mellifera aboard a Chinese ship sailing from Asia to the west coast of North America you've got to show that people kept A. mellifera in western China/Manchuria. And even after that, there's got to be some sort of evidence that they brought them here. And as far as the Vikings and Celts bringing A. mellifera as you say you thought, you should really be prepared to give some sort of source. Perhaps you have seen or read of archeological evidence that Greenland or Iceland (where the Vikings would have left from) had domesticated bees. Then perhaps some documentation or even oral tradition that they or St. Brendan or whoever brought over A. mellifera. A log fort with a sword hilt made in a certain way could indeed be evidence that Vikings made it here first, especially if it correlates with other evidence, but jumping from there to importing bees which eventually made it to Arizons doesn't cut it. I'm not sure why one must discount the hundreds of bills of lading, diaries, requests from colonists, company decisions to send bees etc..which show that bees were first brought in when historians tell us. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:24:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Kris Woolley Subject: Re: Chinese Discover America in 1421 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think it is propaganda from China which country is acting like a = threat to the security of the US right now. Asians have been on the American continent but there is no proof they = were from China. Most likely the DNA was here thousands of years ago, = from China they did not make long voyages because of fear and = superstition in the 1400s. China was subjected to "imperialism" due at = least in part to its lack of advancement in sea going. If the Chinese = had managed to get to the Americas before Columbus, in the 1400s, we = would have heard about it before now. I know because I grew up near = Chinatown in LA and the kids I went to school with made sure I knew = about everything that originated in China. Gun powder, pasta, etc. But = not maritime supremacy or adequacy, they have never claimed that before. Bees were in central america before the pilgrims, brought here via the = middle east according to the B of M, a scripture account, by sea = voyagers of Hebrew decent. ----- Original Message -----=20 Hi all: Okay, watching PBS TV show last night on chinese discovering the Americas and going around the world in 1421 long before anyone else.... -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 18:32:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Chinese Discover America in 1421 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Kris Woolley wrote: ... according to the B of M, a scripture account, ... What is the B of M? Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:28:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Benson Subject: Re: Chinese Discover America in 1421 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kris Woolley wrote: >from China they did not make long voyages because of fear and superstition in the 1400s. > > Nah - they got around pretty good, working their way through Indonesia and along the African coast. thousands of miles. I would say that they can be considered to have made long voyages. Did they discover america? I don't know. Did they bring bees? Now that is certainly a stretch. It makes sense that they would ahve horses and other live stock to use and feed the salors. But bees would be of no use in the open ocean. The 7 voyages were trading missions by and large, not to establish colonies. Did said chinese even keep AM at that time? >Bees were in central america before the pilgrims, brought here via the middle east according to the B of M, a scripture account, by sea voyagers of Hebrew decent. > > What is the B of M? Keith > > -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:13:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Chinese Discover America in 1421 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This message was originally submitted by bkw1111@MSN.COM to the BEE-L = list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to correct urls, format as text = only, and to remove quotes. ----------------- Original message (ID=3DDE1D3F11) (74 lines) = ------------------- From: "Kris Woolley" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" = Subject: Re: Re: [BEE-L] Chinese Discover America in 1421 Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:37:44 -0700 =20 Just found this article: http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=3D6095 Here is a quote from it: "....In the midst of planning for the = anniversary celebrations came British writer Gavin Menzies' claim, in = his book "1421: The Year the Chinese Discovered America," that Zheng 's = ships had sailed into the Atlantic and reached North America. Chinese = people everywhere were fascinated. Whether true or not, many were = delighted that a Western scholar had acknowledged a Chinese achievement. "Chinese experts on that period of history have not been persuaded by = his evidence...." Sorry about that comment about propaganda. My thoughts were coming = from all the reports of espionage and breaking into defense dept = computers by chinese military recently on the news. It may actually be something more capitalistic, like selling a book: http://www.eamonn.com/2003/04/china_discovers_america.htm The B of M is short for Book of Mormon, in which a type of honey bee is = referred to as Deseret.=20 http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/bom/deseret_eom.htm I have a faint recollection of learning about stinger-less honey bees = being found in areas of Mayan ruins in central America. ...Now some = still found in the Amazon. Google has a lot of hits for stingerless = bees, I just found out. http://www.smokymountainnews.com/issues/8_01/8_01_01/out_bees.shtml Now why couldn't this type be spreading around instead of africanized? Kristine =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 08:46:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: literacy vs bigotry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To the gentleman who rails against the possibility that Chinese = explorers could possibly have preceeded European explorers I suggest = that before interpreting the data in terms of 20th geopolitics that he = read the book. 1421. The author is a very competent mariner and = navigator and may indeed be correct. The presence of animals and plants = in the western parts with DNA found only in China supports his = arguments. =20 While the Chinese Fleet is reported to have brought dolphins to help = catch fish and prostitutes to please foreign potentates there would be = no great reason for them to haul bees onto the ocean. The mapping and = astronomical accomplishments of that great fleet are enough to give us = all pause. Certainly the 15th century junk found in Australia supports = his theories as do the Chinese genetics along the west coast of Africa. Here in New England we have our Dighton rock with its strange and = unreadable writing which certainly does match the others in Australia = and Africa. Its all very interesting but does not seem to have anything to do with = bees. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:17:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Chinese Discover America in 1421 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure why the url for China's Cautious "Pride in an Ancient = Mariner" got corrupted in transit. It should be: http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=3D6095 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:23:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Chinese Discover America in 1421 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 I'm not sure why the url for "China's Cautious Pride in an Ancient = Mariner" got corrupted in transit. It should be: http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=3D3D6095 Again the url got corrupted. There should not be "3D" after the equal = sign. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:54:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Stingless bees; was: Chinese Discover America in 1421 Comments: To: Aaron Morris >From: "Kris Woolley" >I have a faint recollection of learning about stinger-less honey bees being found in areas of Mayan ruins in central America. This was discussed at length by me and others. Search the archives for "melipona". By the way, they are called stingless bees. And you don't want these bees, as they produce little honey, gummy wax, and cannot survive where it is cold. According to Eva Crane, in "The Archaeology of Beekeeping" (pp. 61-62) "honey hunting and beekeeping in hives were already developed in prehistoric times, although not many records of it survive. There are no native honeybees in America, and the bees used were various species of stingless bee (Meliponini); they build rather amorphous nests from which honey and wax were harvested. The earliest surviving written account is by Bishop Diego de Landa who arrived in Yucatan in 1549." -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:39:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: literacy vs bigotry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...there would be no great > reason for them to haul bees onto the ocean. Perhaps it was the greatest reason of all to take bees to the sea,,, To use as curency 'For trade with other lands'. Evidence is showing the ancient Chinnese routenly transported honeybees by sea centuries ago with Cambodia. "There were two Chenlas "Land Chenla and Water Chenla". Land Chenla was a part of former Khmer Empire is now Laos. In those old days, Cambodians always sold pure wax and honeybees to foreigners and Chinese sailors in Water Chenla before taking those pure wax and honeybees back to their home." http://www.khmerkrom.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=179 http://khmerkrom.net/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=179 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:28:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: April Lance Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Dec 2005 to 16 Dec 2005 (#2005-337) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What was the name of the show showing the chineese encircling the globe? thanks April Lance 1656 West Dry Creek Road Healdsburg, California 95448 707-431-1569 phone 707-478-1008 cell "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete" -R. Buckminster Fuller -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 08:04:00 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: literacy vs bigotry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > there would be no great reason for them to haul bees onto the ocean. > Certainly the 15th century junk found in Australia supports his theories > as do the Chinese genetics along the west coast of Africa. If they did carry bees with them would they have not been Apis cerana? There are no Apis species native to Australia, nor surviving in Australia before 1822, so they certainly did not carry them to Australia. If they carried them to Africa, one could safely surmise that they would have carried varroa with the Apis cerana so Africa should have had varroa occurring in its bee populations long before now. Doesn't mean to say that the Chinese didn't discover these places, just that it is highly unlikely that they would have carried bees with them. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 14:18:26 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Dec 2005 to 16 Dec 2005 (#2005-337) In-Reply-To: <271.2927f1d.30d5dd09@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- April Lance wrote: > What was the name of the show showing the chineese > encircling the globe? > thanks I believe it was this PBS documentary: "1421: THE YEAR CHINA DISCOVERED AMERICA?," http://www.pbs.org/previews/1421/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:43:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: literacy vs bigotry In-Reply-To: <002401c60355$ca4d60d0$0595453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor writes: If they carried them to Africa, one could safely surmise that they would have carried varroa with the Apis cerana so Africa should have had varroa occurring in its bee populations long before now. Reply: Nope....don't think so, for they didn't practice LC foundation/comb in their field management....only the narrowminded ones that thought the earth was flat, and also by coincidence were in the same land that LC came about also, got the varroa problem going.......but I could be wrong. Put them back on SC and natural sustainable beekeeping and the problem disappears for some reason...... Also, funny that only the Europeans were the first to want to take with them to new lands the honeybees they had....not that others weren't already there first....asian, celtic, jews, vikings, etc.... Respectfully submmitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 09:05:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Please stay on topic! (Was: literacy vs bigotry) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hesitated to approve Dee's original post, "Chinese Discover America in = 1421" as it was only remotely related to the BEE-L charter, but it = possibly opened the door (only a crack IMHO but ajar nonetheless) to the = possibility that Apis younameit could have arrived in North America = earlier than credited. It's a long stretch, but not out of the realm of = possibility. =20 The discussion has since denigrated into literacy vs bigotry and = possible assertions that the Chinese travelers were adamant small cell = beekeepers. In the exchanges, anachronisms abound! IF the Chinese = arrived in 1421, realize that 1421 predates moveable frame hives and = foundation mills. There were no species cross-over possibilities in = North America, and I don't think anyone anywhere has an idea of the = Varroa population dynamics in 1421! =20 I'm not taking a stand on any of the assertions, I don't know it all. =20 But please folks, lets try to keep the discussion on topic. =20 Aaron Morris - thinking Informed and SUBSTANTIATED Discussion of = Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology =20 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:52:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Europeans & honey bees Comments: To: Dee Lusby Dee writes: > Also, funny that only the Europeans were the first to want to take with them to new lands the honeybees they had This was discussed at great length here about three years ago (see archives, please!) In a nutshell, the Spanish brought honey bees because beeswax was central to the rituals of the Catholic church (candles). Before this they forced the natives of Central America & Mexico to give them what wax they could get from the stingless bees. But this wax is gummy and unsuited for candle making. On a side note, the Hopi Indians used tobacco, corn and honey in rituals. But it is unclear whether they got the honey from 1) native bees, 2) bees from much farther south, or 3) boiled sap of the maguey cactus. My hunch is that it is #3, as it is still used this way and is a primary ingredient in tequila. Peter Borst Danby NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:18:32 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: literacy vs bigotry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> If they carried them to Africa, one could safely surmise >> that they would have carried varroa with the Apis cerana so >> Africa should have had varroa occurring in its bee >> populations long before now. > Nope....don't think so, for they didn't practice LC > foundation/comb in their field management But it is not Apis mellifera that is naturally occurring in South Africa for example. The native species are still on small cells and they now have varroa. I do not see that the small cell of the native South African species stopped them getting varroa. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:05:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob & Char Hack Subject: Re: uniting nucs to requeen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some time ago there was a discussion about intruducing nucs using = unscented Glade. I have been unable to source the 'unscented' Glade, = only the scented kind. Does anyone know if the scented kinds are OK? I = like the idea of using a 'spray bomb'. It is very convenient to carry = and fast to use. Failing this are there any other fast, efficient and = 'works every time' methods to unite nucs that do not require the use of = newspaper (a PITA when it's breezy - and that's always)? TIA, Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:43:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob & Char Hack Subject: Wasp Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I never used to bother with wasps, however they are becoming an = increasingly serious problem. Over the years I have used many methods = quite sucessfully. The big problem is now they fill up with wasps so = quickly that in a few hours the traps need emptying. This is just not = convenient for me to do consistantly.=20 I've noticed that the wasps fly into my bucket of solution faster than = they fly into the traps, so now I just leave the open bucket of solution = by the hives. It only catches about 90% of them and maybe that's a good = thing. The odd one can go back home and lure the others (if that is what = they do?). I carry an extra empty bucket and a piece of #5 mesh. I pour = the wasps and solution through the mesh into the empty bucket. Add a bit = of new solution. Less than one minute and I'm done. And I have an emtpy = bucket ready for the next apiary.=20 My solution is any attractant (jam, old honey, whatever is handy), = vinegar and a few drops of dishwater detergent. The regular traps are OK in spring to catch the queen wasps while they = are still foraging. Each queen caught is one less colony in fall, right? Cheers, Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:01:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: uniting nucs to requeen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob wonders about combining nucs to requeen. Is the hive to be requeened queenless or queenright? If queenless, the requirement to use a newspaper or other barrier is one of beekeepings many 'old wives tales'. Just put them together. I've done it hundreds of times and have never had a failure to accept. If queenright, the newspaper is unlikely to *guarantee* success. (Although the chances of the youngest queen surviving is probably 90% or better.) I don't know anything about the use of Glade. A method used by many with a queenright hive is to seperate the two hives b= y a super of mostly sealed honey. Eventually the hive below the super will lose their queen and the queen in the upper box will survive. A more common practice is to seperate the two queens with a queen excluder and give the upper box an entrance. Put any and all supers above the upper box. When the new queen is well established, remove the queen excluder. The youngest queen will always be the survivor. The only dififculty with this is that sometimes the lower box will swarm. If it does, immediately remove the excluder and the bees will tear down the queen cells in the bottom box. Hope this helps. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:45:20 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: uniting nucs to requeen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob asked about using Glade for uniting. Yes, scented is fine. I have used the vanilla successfully - but they might well have united OK without it! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:23:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: uniting nucs to requeen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmmmm. I've been googling around trying to find what's in Glade, to = help me understand why it belongs in a colony of bees. I've found lots = of coupons and offers for cheap bulk orders, but I cannot find a = registration for in-hive use, nor can I find a list of ingredients. = I've asked Jeeves, but the best he can tell me is SC Johnson refuses to = divulge that information, and offered an interesting side note that SC = Johnson was once sued by the makers of the pine tree shaped air = fresheners that hang from rear view mirrors in automobiles. Perhaps = those pine tree fresheners offer better results in uniting a nuc to = requeen a colony? =20 Aaron Morris - wondering what we'll stick in our hives next. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:34:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Uniting nucs to requeen hives In-Reply-To: <9D95C2906FCCE04F836ECA17C4CE0921030C115B@UAEXCH.univ.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Dec 19, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Aaron Morris wrote: > Hmmmm. I've been googling around trying to find what's in Glade, to > help me understand why it belongs in a colony of bees. Good for you, Aaron. To unite colonies, I just did so at the right time of day, when the field force was out where they did the most good. A little sugar solution dribbled into the colonies did wonders, also. Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:46:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: literacy vs bigotry In-Reply-To: <000201c60431$e8888ed0$fe9c453d@new1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Trevor writes: The native species are still on small cells and they now have varroa. I do not see that the small cell of the native South African species stopped them getting varroa. Reply: So the chinese did bring varroa to Africa way back then and America too on the world wide trips in 1421. This is good Trevor, for I think too that the mites could/may/might have been here along and just needed a trigger or careful eye to get us to notice them, especially by enlargement of combs which seems to have triggered the care-ing that a problem did exist, if not actually make a problem out of nothing, that when sized back down stops being one. So I agree with you that the small cell of the native South African species did not stop them from getting varroa, but perhaps the recent changes to larger sizing will rectify that then, by creating an imbalance problem like the rest of the world has, with reproduction in cells and sucking the blood of adults. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups/yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:44:22 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "scot.mcpherson" Organization: Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: literacy vs bigotry Comments: To: queenbee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dee: >>Nope....don't think so, for they didn't practice LC foundation/comb in their field management Trevor: >The native species are still on small cells and they now have varroa. Trevor, They have/host varroa, the same way dee, myself and others involuntarily host varroa. However, our hives are not crashing as a result. We are observing a more balanced co-existence. Small cell will never eliminate varroa, nor was it ever meant to. It is merely one important aspect of whole bee management which results in overall healthier happier bees and beekeepers too. Scot McPherson Davenport, IA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 20:12:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob & Char Hack Subject: Re: uniting nucs to requeen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aaron, I fail to see where the effects of a 1 second puff of Glade = across the top bars equates in any 'significant' way to actually putting = a pine air freshener or some other equivalent into the hive it's self to = stay for whatever period of time. I do not use Apistan or Checkmite, but = on the other hand I am not one to go to the other extreme either. I like = to keep a reasonable balance in all things I do in my life, including my = bees. Thanks everyone for your help, Bob SC Johnson was once sued by the makers of the pine tree shaped air = fresheners that hang from rear view mirrors in automobiles. Perhaps = those pine tree fresheners offer better results in uniting a nuc to = requeen a colony? =20 Aaron Morris - wondering what we'll stick in our hives next. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 07:17:29 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: uniting nucs to requeen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron wondered what we will stick in our hives next. I agree, so should hasten to add that I only used Glade once to unite two nucs - just to see the effect. I do not use it regularly! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 08:07:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Wasp Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Hack wrote about catching wasps: > The regular traps are OK in spring to catch the queen wasps while they are > still foraging. Each queen caught is one less colony in fall, right? I used to think that way but, after the worst wasp year in living memory last year, I have been involved in a trial of some commercial wasp traps this year and have consequently learnt a great deal more about wasps and traps! Killing queens in the spring will make little difference to the overall wasp population as only 9 out of 10,000 queens will successfully found a nest (Social Wasps, Rentokil Library). Wasps have two type of behaviour - hunting and foraging. After nests have been started in the spring, the wasps hunt for food for their larvae. The larvae are carnivorous, so the wasps will catch large numbers of pests and are therefore beneficial at this time - we should not try to eliminate them as they are part of the natural balance. When the wasps feed the larvae, they are rewarded with a drop of sweet liquid exuded by the larvae, so they have no need to forage for themselves. Later in the season, the nest reaches a peak and then starts to decline. At this point, there are less larvae to feed and consequently the large adult population no longer has to hunt for insects - more importantly for us, it has to find its own supply of sweet food. The behaviour converts from hunting to foraging. According to my trap supplier, it is crucial that traps never allow any wasps to escape as they will then recruit more to the food source. Certainly that was my experience last year with simple bottle traps; although I caught huge numbers of wasps, I could see that many did escape and ever larger numbers kept coming. So, according to the theory, a good trap should catch all of the scout wasps and then there will not be a problem. It does seem to work - at one large visitor centre in the UK, stinging incidents were reduced by 97% after installing the traps. Of course, this year was not a good year for a trial! The very long, cold, dry spring hit the wasps very hard and delayed the build up of nests. Here in the Midlands we would normally expect wasps to convert from hunting to foraging in early August, but this year they were still hunting in early November. Then the weather changed suddenly and I have not seen a single wasp since the first frosts. However, the traps did catch a fair number of wasps and I have not had any wasps problem in the apiaries this year. It is interesting that the traps also caught large numbers of wax moths and flies. More information on the traps is available here: http://www.waspbane.co.uk/ Incidentally, the bait used is a mixture of Carling Black Label lager, a small amount of either honey or maple syrup, and three secret ingredients. For my own traps in the past I have always used plain sugar syrup - which wasps can obviously smell easily. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:10:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: literacy vs bigotry Comments: To: Dee Lusby On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:46:14 -0800, Dee Lusby wrote: >So the chinese did bring varroa to Africa way back then and >America too on the world wide trips in 1421. This is good >Trevor, for I think too that the mites could/may/might have >been here along Trevor did not say nor imply that Chinese brought bees and mites to America. Not only is there a huge body of work produced by thousands of people over many decades to prove this never happened -- there is not one speck of evidence presented by you or anyone else to even suggest that it ever did. There were bees in America before the Europeans and Asians arrived. None of these bees is Apis. Bees were brought to America by settlers, but none of those bees were from China. There is not now, nor ever has been, an established population of Apis cerana in the Americas. The introduction of varroa into the US is fully documented and did not take place before 1980. I assume you're continuing this thread to support your contention that there are wild bees in the hills of Arizona that are not the descendents of the bees that were brought by the Spanish. So far, the only support you have offered is the presence of some cave paintings in the Southwest US. Perhaps you can share photos of these so we can make up our own minds about them. Glass -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 06:40:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Foreign stuff in our hives In-Reply-To: <008e01c6051b$90ac1390$7600a8c0@blue> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bob & Char Hack wrote: > Aaron, I fail to see where the effects of a 1 second > puff of Glade across the top bars With all the hoopla about miniscule amounts of contaminants in our honey, what kind of contamination are we introducing into the hive with puffs of Glade? Just using sprays of sugar water scented with oils of mint, vanilla, or whatever seems bad enough in my thinking. How long does this stuff persist in the hive? Can it be detected by our now advanced diagnostics and the honey labled contaminated? Thinking new things are good "if" they are thoroughly investigated and proved noncontaminating. Don't want to end up with all my summer's honey production good for nothing but bee feed the next spring. Mike located in lower Alabama __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:24:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Native American Bees Greetings! The subject of Native American Bees is extremely interesting. This topic has recurred in recent issues of "Bee World". The bees of the Yucatan are still being kept in the traditional way of the Mayans, who essentially worshipped them. Unfortunately, this form of beekeeping is about to slip off the face of the earth, mainly due to the competition from African Bees. A great web page devoted to stingless bees can be seen at: http://tinyurl.com/8elsm Sorry that it is in Portuguese. I can't read it either, but I thought the pictures were worth the price of admission (free!) Peter Borst Danby NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 07:56:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: literacy vs bigotry In-Reply-To: <200512201410.jBKE0oFY016295@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Glass, The photos of the bees in the cave, along with wax and other samples were shared with USDA scientists and calif personnel, and then there was much talk about similar down in Mexico, and pottery/baskets with bees on them too that was old. Why don't you as the scientists what they did with the information they were handed? If I remember correctly it carbon dated about 1,300 AD and Dan Aten said S. Brenner was with the work around 91/92 doing/involved with the work. Also this was the same time frame the AHB management plans were being put together for funding, makes one wonder if a different path was choosen as to which to proceed with, or one put aside. Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:11:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob & Char Hack Subject: Re: Wasp Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Peter for posting this info. I based my info on spring queen = catching (qualified by 'right?') from = http://www.transtronic.ch/hp/e/insektenvernichter/wespen/wespen.htm - = about halfway down. I realize this is a commercial site, but their = references include the one you used (Social Wasps, Rentokil Library). I = have to yet buy Edwards book, so as of now I do not have enough = understanding to question the 9 in 10,000 survival ratio. That ratio = however SEEMS highly suspect from observations in my local. Any ideas on = what different methods could be employed (not too complex please) to = roughly test this ratio. You also mentioned "According to my trap supplier, it is crucial that = traps never allow any wasps to escape as they will then recruit more to = the food source." The way I see it (in my feeble little high school = drop out/non-scientific mind) is that it IS important that the others = get lured back to the trap. For example: if 1 out of 10 escapes, then = brings back 10 more, of which only 1 escapes then we have 9 or 10 less = wasps - more or less. What am I missing here? Cheers, Bob - getting wiser by the post! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:40:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob & Char Hack Subject: Re: Foreign stuff in our hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, you raise some valid questions. I only became interested in this = after reading a BeeL post by Bill Ruzicka billruzicka@MITEGONE.COM last = March 27. Bill is a fairly large and very successfull beekeeper. Seeing = I had the time now, I thought it a good idea to do some research. I have = not used Glade, but for now I will keep an open mind. At http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/mee/2001-47mee.htm I found the following = information: 191551 - (4822 - 293) S.C. JOHNSON & SON, INC. GLADE AIR SANITIZER USE: DISINFECTANT - FOR THE CONTROL OF BACTERIA, ODORS, SMOKE AND MILDEW TYPE: SECTION 3 LABEL AMENDMENT - TO ADD A CLAIM FOR CONTROL OF "GERMS" ACTIVE INGREDIENT(S): TRIETHYLENE GLYCOL CAS NUMBER(S): 112-27-6=20 Also here two excerpts from: = http://www.nicnas.gov.au/PUBLICATIONS/CAR/NEW/NA/NASUMMR/NA0800SR/na817.a= sp : "of very low acute oral toxicity and low acute dermal toxicity" Mike, you asked about the persistance, here is an indication I think; "Due to the rapid biodegradation of the chemical, it was not possible to = generate ecotoxicity......" Best to read the whole page though. I am not trying to establish any absolutes. I'am simply interested to = get as much imformation as possible to see where Glade fits into the = picture: nothing in the hive > a ounce a year 1 second puff of Glade > = 40 days of Apistan > 40 days of Checkmite. I know Apistan and Checkmite = are approved, but then again Bayer's billions can get (almost) anything = approved! Cheers, Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 07:15:36 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Wasp Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob I have wondered how anyone arrived at 9 in 10,000. Presumably by estimating the number of queens produced and the total number of nests in a given area. Whether the number is correct or not, from observation of wasp nests it seems that more than enough queens are produced to colonise an area - by a considerable factor - and that killing a few queens is unlikely to make much difference. On recruitment, by catching 100% of the scouts you do not have a problem with large numbers at any time. If some - often many - escape and recruit more then you will have large numbers of wasps looking for food (what is described as 'swarming' behaviour). If they all went to the trap then I guess that your theory would be correct, but if they are just recruited to the general area then you will have a considerable nuisance on your hands. This is what I found last year - although I caught large numbers, more and more arrived by the day and I was inundated - my neighbours (close by - suburban area) were not affected and thought that there were not many wasps around! Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:44:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Wasp Control In-Reply-To: <001001c605fe$5713df30$cb762a50@office> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why are wasps a problem? I am a gardener and they are essential for the control of many pests. Most problems we have in Maine are not from wasps but yellow jackets and bald face hornets and they are marginal problems and easily corrected (or ignored). An interesting observation by people in the pest control business is that when traps are put out for some pests (especially Japanese Beetles), they act as a draw for those pests and the concentration of the pest in the area actually increases. So the next year, because of the increased numbers of the past year, you end up with more, not less pests in your area. It also gives the pests more mates to select from so you get even more pests the next year. That is the reason to not let scouts get free, but you are talking about a perfect system where the trap works perfectly and the procedures are followed perfectly. If you were perfect, another problem is when you reduce the number of pests you also reduce the number of counter-agents to that pest, be they other insects or pathogens. (Before we get back on the "natural" way to control Varroa, remember that a balance already exists for wasps and their counter-agents. None existed for Varroa.) So when you remove the controls, you get more pests since the delay between pest and counter-agent is always large. So I wonder what the problem is with wasps? Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:30:36 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Wasp Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > Most problems we have in Maine are not from wasps but yellow jackets... I suspect that our wasps and your 'yellowjackets' are the same animal. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk ...trying to think of a counter-agent for wasps in August - unsuccessfully! -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:19:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Scott, ABF, ABRC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Good Morning: I have a favor to request of my Bee-List friends. I'm sending Scott Debnam, a student who has worked with us for 4 years, to represent us at ABRC in Baton Rouge and ABF in Louisville. Due to the conflict in dates, I'm going to be at AHPA. This is Scott's first trip to national meetings. Scott is at a pivotal point in his career-- he's either going on to Graduate School, or into the private sector. He loves bees (call's them his girls). Initially, he wanted to go on to be a wildlife veterinarian. Now, he's considering other options - i.s., stay in the bee world. He'll be presenting a short video in the commericial beekeepers breakout section at ABF, and doing some testing with Jeff Harris at Baton Rouge. Easy to identify, bit older than our typical student, body-builder (like Samson, he wears his hair long), southern accent, upbeat personality. He's eager to meet beekeepers and bee researchers, learn anything he can about bees, varroa, education and bee-related job opportunities. I'm asking my friends and colleagues to introduce yourselves, get to know him a bit. He could go on in a graduate program here, but he'd be far better off broadening his experience, either in a graduate program at another school or by working in the bee industry. Being selfish, we'd keep him here; but .... he'd benefit more by expanding his knowledge and experience. He can always come back to us. Thanks to everyone for your help. Jerry J.J. Bromenshenk Research Professor The University of Montana CEO, Bee Alert Technology, Inc. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:40:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Bees for Development Film MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am working with a small group of people to see whether we can make a =20 short, 20 minute, film for Bees for Development, a charity registered in the= UK. =20 The purpose of the film is to raise awareness of the work that BfD does and= =20 hopefully to raise funds through donations. The =E2=80=98story=E2=80=99 is=20= that a small=20 office in Wales assists beekeepers in developing countries all over the wor= ld by=20 providing knowledge and information in the form of the Bees for Development= =20 Journal and their Information Service; and how this information is used by=20 beekeepers to reduce poverty. We can also incorporate the value of beekeepi= ng in=20 maintaining biodiversity. =20 Those readers who attended Apimondia may have met the BfD team there. They= =20 may also have met Ceri Collingborn, the World Honey Queen and Claire Kehoe=20 the Irish Honey Queen. The candidates for the crown were required, among ot= her=20 things, to make a presentation on beekeeping in the developing World. Ceri= ,=20 in particular, takes seriously the duty that comes with the title: to promo= te=20 beekeeping. She will be using her presentation skills on the film. Claire=20 is studying marketing at University and has already been very helpful with=20= her=20 advice in this direction. My son, Charlie, is studying Media Arts and is =20 contributing with specialised advice on making films. =20 The audience for the film is intended to be beekeeping associations and=20 international development groups/NGOs in English speaking, developed countr= ies=20 (other suggestions welcome). Current thinking is that we will issue the fil= m in=20 the form of DVDs to be distributed where required. We need to get a handl= e=20 on the costs before we can go to a potential sponsor with a detailed =20 proposal, and also get an idea of the potential audience and the number of D= VDs =20 required and which countries they should go to. =20 The purpose of this mail is to seek advice on these numbers. I am guessing= =20 that the UK, US, Canada and Australia would be the main takers, but India a= nd=20 parts of Africa may also require some. If Aaron thinks that this is=20 sufficiently of general interest then replies through this list would be we= lcome,=20 otherwise off list would be fine. Please note that this is still in the ide= as=20 stage and so we would welcome input from others. We are assuming that it w= ill=20 be about a year before completion and so we are not taking orders at this =20 stage. =20 People might like to visit the Bees for Development web site at=20 _http://www.planbee.org.uk/_ (http://www.planbee.org.uk/)=20 =20 Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:35:13 +0000 Reply-To: pencaemawr@ntlworld.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Pencaemawr Subject: Re: Wasp Control In-Reply-To: <43A95C39.6070505@suscom-maine.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > Most problems we have in Maine are not from wasps but yellow jackets and From over the pond I had always assumed that yellow jacket was just an American name for wasp. Would someone care to put me right? John Burgess -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:57:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Wasp Control In-Reply-To: <003301c605ba$b1a4c7a0$7600a8c0@blue> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6FCD4743 At 06:11 PM 12/20/2005, you wrote: >The way I see it (in my feeble little high school drop out/non-scientific mind) is that it IS important that the others get lured back to the trap. I suppose it depends on what you are trying to achieve with the trap. If your goal is simply to have fewer yellow jackets in the fall robbing the hives (my goal anyways), then loosing a few scouts that bring back more is a good thing. It could have the effect of attracting yellow jackets from a much wider area then would be present under normal conditions, but I think the hives themselves already do that. But if your intent is to eliminate yellow jackets from an area (picnic area, school playground, etc.) then any increased activity in the area caused by lost scouts could be considered a bad thing. The trap I use is a simple 2 liter bottle with holes cut a couple inches from the top in which those plastic queen cell protectors are placed (They act like a funnel). Simple and it works well. For bait I use the burnt honey water I get from melting down cappings in a stock pot with water. -Tim -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.2/208 - Release Date: 12/20/2005 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 12:31:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Carl David Lehr Subject: Re: Bees for Development Film - Heifer Intl Offers Honeybees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Chris, Regarding your interest in Bees for Development ... I might direct you (and everyone else) to the following Heifer International charity website. http://www.heifer.org/site/apps/ka/ec/product.asp?c=edJRKQNiFiG&b=477887&Pro ductID=164802 My sister recently told me that Heifer International has now included honeybee colonies as a gift selection (we're donating 3 for Christmas). This org might be able to provide some valuable assistance or statistical data to help you in your research effort. Just a thought. Hope it helps and Good Luck. Dave Dave and Kristi Lehr Carroll County Beekeepers Association Westminster, Maryland -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:36:17 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Yellow jacket wasps Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit John Burgess asked" > From over the pond I had always assumed that yellow jacket was just an > American name for wasp. Would someone care to put me right? > > John Burgess Much confusion arises out of the use of common names for species. The terms "wasp" and "hornet" might be used for wasp species in the same genus — or for species in other wasp genera. The "yellow jacket wasp" designation usually refers only to "Vespula pensylvanica," a mostly ground nesting wasp found throughout the U.S. (No, I didn't error in the species name spelling.) In the spring in our area yellow jacket wasp queens most often set up "housekeeping" in disused pocket gopher burrows. As the season progresses, the colony makes an ever-expanding paper nest underground in a form much the same as paper nests made by other wasp species and suspended in trees. By fall, a colony can have several thousand individuals. In our mild climate, some colonies even survive the winter and start out strong in the spring. When people say "yellow jackets," they usually refer to this species, one that causes such problems at picnic tables and in bee yards. Unfortunately, some citizens erroneously call them "meat bees." Hope this helps. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home office phone) 967 Garcia Road wenner@lifesci.ucsb.edu Santa Barbara, CA 93103 www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:34:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Bugs In March On Bee Culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To All, News to Tell on: Call me Scrooge or call me a declarer of a trivial pursuit; but, strictly in the FWIW Department there is news to tell on Bee Culture’s 2006 Beekeeping Calendar, March 2006 has a March 20, 2006 ten days apart. Whilst I was preparing grafting schedules for 2006 I discovered that I could graft on Monday, March the 20th and pull my finished queen cells to put into mating nucs on Thursday, March 20th. Coool! Now if only I can get April 15, 2006 to duplicate itself sometime in July 2007. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to ALL, Cheers, Chuck Norton Norton’s Nut & Honey Farm Reidsville, NC 27320 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:57:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Bees for Development Film MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am told that the new address of the BfD website is _www.beesfordevelopment.org_ (http://www.beesfordevelopment.org) although the old one still works. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:09:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Marron Subject: Yellow Jacke Wasps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Adrian wrote: >>Unfortunately, some citizens erroneously call them "meat bees." I have hunted in Montana where the ground seemed to be alive with them. = One could actually hear a low buzz. If you saw how quickly they will = descend on a carcass you would use a different word for erroneous. = That's where I first heard the term, "Meat bees." Haven't heard it = since. Dickm -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:29:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Wasp Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> Surely the problem, at least as far as beekeepers are concerned, is the unnecessarily large hive entrances most people use, which creates a situation where it becomes relatively easy for the wasps to creep in. Since I started using permanently reduced entrances, my wasp problems have effectively ceased, despite the presence of numerous nests. Regards, Robert Brenchley -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:27:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Wasp Control In-Reply-To: <27d.2d6e7f8.30db3139@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:29 PM 12/21/2005, you wrote: >Surely the problem, at least as far as beekeepers are concerned, is the >unnecessarily large hive entrances most people use, I agree. I've found the 3/4"x16" opening typical of the reversible bottom board completely unnecessary at any time of the year. I do run with a standard 3/8" opening most of the time but do have it reduced both spring and in the fall when yellow jackets typically are a problem. I have found that even with a very populous 5 frame nuc a single 3/4" diameter is adequate so I'm sure even the standard 3/8" opening is more than necessary. -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:51:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bob & Char Hack Subject: Re: Wasp Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill Wrote: Why are wasps a problem?=20 I never had a problem with wasps that the bees couldn't take care of = until 2004. In one apairy they were so bad that 4 to 5 inches around = some hive entrances were covered with what seemed like thousands of = wasps. I closed all the hives down a 2-3 bee entrance. I still lost 4 or = 5 hives. The ones that did survive were so stressed that they all died = over winter. In another apairy were they were not quite as bad I lost = about 25% of my hives. In the apairy with normal wasp activity I only = lost one hive, probably starvation. This year when the wasps were building up equally quickly I put out = regular traps but they filled within a few hours. It was then that I put = out the open bait trays (as described in my initial post) and initially = trapped about one gallon of wasps per day. When the trapped volume = dropped to about a cup a day I quit trapping and the bees looked after = themselves OK -I think. They seemed to go into the winter their usual = strong clusters. Now I have to wait till spring and see. Thanks everyone for your valuable insights,=20 Cheers ..bob PS: I do a lot of different gardening and value what the wasps do for me = in the garden. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:45:29 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Wasp Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchley wrote: > Since I started using permanently reduced entrances, my wasp problems have > effectively ceased, I have also found these helpful and now have around half my colonies on OMFs with a 7mm full width entrance. However, in 2004 I lost around 20 colonies to wasps and many of these had the narrow entrances. I even reduced these with foam, but it made little difference - in some cases the outside of the hives were covered with wasps. I have never seen anything like it before - despite trapping thousands, more and more seemed to arrive. Although I would expect to lose the odd weak colony to wasps each year, 2004 was exceptional. In contrast, this year there has been no problem and I have not lost a single colony. Of course, the weather for 2004 was completely different from 2005 and last year the wasp colonies were very strong at the beginning of August, whereas the bee colonies were not. This year saw a complete reversal, wasps weak but bees very strong. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 04:54:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harri Poom Subject: hive construction Hello! I'm a beginning hobby beekeeper. I have 6 hives by now, three with carniolan bees and three with what once was the Estonin dark bee, but which has hybridised by now and turned even more mean that it initially was (I'm going to requeen these three hives next year). I've found a lot of very interesting postings here in the BEE-L archives and after spending several days and nights behind the computer decided to ask advices from the more experienced beekeepers. I'm going to build a couple of hives this winter. But I don't want to build the traditional ones. I'd build a hive that has a brood chamber that has no frames and where bees could build their combs without foundation. I'd use supers for "my part" of honey. Now, my questions: *does the round or oval cross-section of the brood-chamber have any advantages? *which would be the optimal dimensions (supposedly from the bee's viewpoint) of the brood chamber? *I'd cut off half of the combs in the brood chamber every year - would that be wise? In addition I have to say that my hives are in their certain places all the year round and that the main reason I started to keep bees was a need for pollinators in my orchards. So, I'm not going to make profit from selling honey. Merry Christmas! Harri Poom Estonia -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:58:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Yellow jacket wasps In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian M. Wenner wrote: > When people say "yellow jackets," they usually refer to this > species, one that causes such problems at picnic tables and in bee > yards. Unfortunately, some citizens erroneously call them "meat > bees." Adrian, thanks for clearing up the wasp/yellow jacket confusion (on my part). I, also, use a small entrance all year and have no problems with yellow jackets except once, when a colony was near death. My semi-informed guess is that a weak colony usually is the reason yellow jackets attacking a colony. It is just too weak to defend itself because of other problems. Hence it is a clear identifier of colony problems. If I want to get rid of yellow jackets, I go to the ground nest and pour a bucket of soapy water into it then stamp down the entrance. When I had the problem with them attacking the hive, I got a spray bottle and filled it with soapy water, sat by the hive and shot them out of the sky. More fun than a video game. I get back to my first post on this and wonder if trapping them is adding to the problem. Bugs are not exactly the brightest bulbs in the Universe, so presenting a food source every year will certainly make them think they are on to a good thing. Which has been my experience with most pests. We had few problems with Japanese Beetles until recently. I planted soy beans and too late learned they love soy beans. Now we have a Japanese Beetle problem. The solution is to kill them at the source (Milky spore disease) but traps abound in stores because they are cheaper. But the traps attract more beetles than you already have and they will look at other sources of food in the area. The traps compound the problem unless you increase their numbers to capture most all the pests. Then you are at the economic point where you see that you should have spent more in the beginning on the correct approach to remove the problem. I hand pick them when they are in numbers, but crush the early ones on the leaves which seems to slow them down. That technique is used by some organic gardeners who take it one step further and put the picked beetles in a blender, filter the mess and apply it to the plants. The supposition is that you are feeding the beetles all the diseases that may have resided in their predecessors. Also called the Jeffrey Dahmer branch of organic gardening. Bon appetite! Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:58:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bugni Fabrizio Subject: HAPPY HOLIDAYS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HELLO ALL THE BEEKEEPERS WHO WRITE ON THIS LIST I CONTINUE TO READ YOUR = MESSAGES THAT I FIND INTERESTING EVEN IF NOT WRITE NEVER, FOR PROBLEMS = WITH ENGLISH CONTINUED THUS HAPPY HOLIDAYS BUGNI FABRIZIO=20 ITALY Excuse for my bad English -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:17:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Griggs Mike Subject: Re: EF Phillips On-Line digital collection more than doubles In-Reply-To: <200512220502.jBM51280020288@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just in time for the Holiday Season! I have just been informed by the staff at Mann Library that the new materials, made possible by beekeeper donations, are available at the "Hive & the Honeybee" collection of digital books on line. This makes 30 important early books on beekeeping available to you from your computer. We hope to have more coming in the future! See the collection at; http://bees.library.cornell.edu/ They tell me they are working on a few "bugs" in the system, not quite like us beekeepers, as they have upgraded the software used to present the collection so that: • Search results are significantly improved, with search results now showing highlighted keywords in whole sentences extracted from the text of each volume • Page view is much improved (includes, for example, the full title of the volume being browsed at the top of the web page--something that was missing with the older software) • "Book bag" function works much better now; a little like the "shopping cart" feature of online retailers like Amazon; only better, really, with much improved efficiency in emailing found documents and pages. We plan for another set of digitizations in the new year! In the mean time! Thanx all who have donated to make this possible for everyone. Have a happy holiday & log on to enjoy a good book Mike Griggs -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:34:07 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: hive construction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>I'm going to build a couple of hives this winter. But I don't want to build the traditional ones. I'd build a hive that has a brood chamber that has no frames and where bees could build their combs without foundation. No frames means you'll be able to perform very limited inspections. Swarm cells, possibly disease will evade you. I'd try some kind of a foundationless frame set-up that would let you perform inspections and still put the nest back together the way it was. >>*does the round or oval cross-section of the brood-chamber have any advantages? I've read round cavities allow bees to control the nest thermodynamics with most ease. May be an advantage for a small colony in the winter; otherwise, may not be a critical factor. >>*I'd cut off half of the combs in the brood chamber every year - would that be wise? For what purpose - to collect surplus honey? Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:55:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Chuck Norton Subject: Re: Hive Construction & Farmer to Farmer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings to All, On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Harri Poom wrote: "I'm a beginning hobby beekeeper...I'm going to requeen these three hives....I'd build a hive that has a brood chamber that has no frames and where bees could build their combs without foundation." It worries me considerably that someone would even consider a frameless brood chamber. The purpose of using movable frames is both management and inspection. Without movable frames within the hive, the entire hive, there is no management. In most states, here in this country, such practices are unlawful; however, hives without foundation, or without frames and foundation can sometimes be found from the most unlikely sources, or “know it alls” who come to me with their problems. In the situation described above, if a super with frames is placed upon the hive body the bees will most likely draw down comb from the bottom frames of the super and whenever the super was separated from the hive body most likely a mess would ensue. You could not inspect your brood, you could not manipulate frames, and most likely you could not reverse your hive body with your super. The comb within the hive body most likely would be constructed in a convoluted disarrangement resembling a roller coaster ride in some amusement park or simple a complex maze. This truly is not the way to go, Make your own frames if you have to and use 1 to 2 inch strips of foundation as a starter if beekeeping supplies are difficult to find or to purchase. You could also consider the top bar hive as an alternative since you are more interested in pollination for your orchard. Another thing that I always suggest to new beekeepers is to find a mentor to help guide you through the most difficult period of beekeeping, the beginning. In a related mater I was on the phone earlier this week with our State Apiarist, who had just returned from several weeks in Haiti with the Farmer to Farmer Program. BI had been contacted by Virginia Sopyla earlier this month about the possibility of volunteering for two or three weeks and I wanted to get a status report from Don prior to any commitment. Haiti is an extremely poor country and the farmers there are in dire need of help, a lot of the beekeepers are still using log hives, and because of poverty and ignorance and whatever reason are not using foundation in their hives; and very few are using Langstroth hives. The Farmer to Farmer program is looking for beekeepers to volunteer their time and expertise, you can help. Not only is help needed in Haiti, but in other Central and South American countries. Virginia asked, if I “might know some colleagues who would be interested. We are looking for a variety of practitioners and experts in the areas mentioned above (BEEKEEPING) who could travel to Haiti for two weeks as a volunteer (all expenses are covered). If you are interested in learning more, please visit our website (see below) and contact us - we can send you information on the specific project and the assignments. We have an excellent team in Haiti and have had a successful program there for more than eight years.” Well, I can’t think of a better way of spreading the word, contact information and a web site is below: Virginia Sopyla Farmer to Farmer Program Partners of the Americas 1424 K Street NW, Suite 700 Washington, DC 20005 Tel: 202-637-6204 http://www.partners.net Find a way to always use frames and foundation. Its bad enough when I forget to replace a frame that for some reason I removed since when I come back to the hive whilst in a honey flow the space where the frames was is now filled will comb stuck to the frame above, not always straight and is full of honey and brood. Anyway you look at it, it is a mess, now multiply that mess from a single frame missing by a whole hive body and you’ve got a monstrosity. Hope that I have helped. Sincerely, Chuck Norton Reidsville, NC -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:57:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: a e Subject: Happy Holidays MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for all the useful information from your posts. Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to all who read the list! Sincerely, Abbas in Toronto __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:15:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harri Poom Subject: Re: hive construction To Waldemar: Thank you for the answer! >>No frames means you'll be able to perform very limited inspections. Swarm cells, possibly disease will evade you. Yes, that's true. I'm thinking about using double doors - the inner of glass, the outer of insulated wood - so that I could see what's happening inside. >> I'd try some kind of a foundationless frame set-up that would let you perform inspections and still put the nest back together the way it was. That would be easily done in the "usual" hives I guess and I'm planning to try it out as well. ***I'd cut off half of the combs in the brood chamber every year - would that be wise? >>For what purpose - to collect surplus honey? Well, our bee-keeping books nearly always insist that one should not let combs for overwintering twice and try to renew all the combs once in two years. It is said that otherwise the cells would remain too small (which, maybe, is not a real problem), the honey would easily crystallize and combs may be more contaminated. Actually, I would vandalize in the brood chamber only if it really was necessary! Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 15:01:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Harri Poom Subject: Re: Hive Construction &Farmer to Farmer Chuck Norton wrotes: >>It worries me considerably that someone would even consider a frameless brood chamber... Make your own frames if ... beekeeping supplies are difficult to find or to purchase... Actually, the lack or difficulties in finding the beekeeping equipment is not the case here. It's just the curiosity... Maybe I should describe more completely for what I'd like to build such a "silly" hive. Of course, would I be interested solely in pollinators, this idea wouldn't come into my mind at all. Also, I don't think that I would even got to know that such an interesting site as the BEE-L exists - not to mention to start browsing it... But I happen to be a somewhat inquisitive person and bees have made me pretty curious about how they would build up their life if I will disturb them less than I used to. I'm a beginner, yes, but it does not mean that I don't have any idea what would happen if I just let them by themselves in a foundationless hive without frames! So I started browsing books and net for the information that would help me to construct a hive that allows me to observe how the bees live with less interference from my side. I think that a cavity-like brood chamber that is more high than wide should be fine. If the cylindrical cavity would be more suitable than the parallelepiped-shaped one, I'd build the cylindrical one - but it would be more complicated to do so. I asked about the dimensions of the brood chamber because I have no idea how high and how wide it should be. The conventional hives may give some clues - but I don't have any reason to think that their dimensions are (or are not) just the optimal ones (for bees, I mean). I also think that I'll not have much - if any - problems with using supers if the brood chamber has a ceiling with the movable queen excluder and the distance between frames in the super and the queen excluder is about 8mm. I expect that the foundation starter strips hanging from the ceiling should guide bees to build up (more or less) parallel combs if this is necessary. As our bee keeping books advise to replace a half of combs every year, I asked weather it is wise to destroy half of the brood chamber combs or not. I wouldn't like to do this at all - unless a really significant reason exists. For observing and , if necessary, handling the brood chamber I plan to establish two double doors per hive (in the opposite sides) - the inner ones from glass and the outer ones from the insulated wood (our winters are pretty tough, -25 C is not a miracle and the temperature can drop well below -30 C). I would not be troubled with the swarming very much - but only in case of these two experimental hives (if I'll build them; I guess I will). Of course, I try prevent swarming in all my other, conventional hives. I plan to establish some more hives next year, so that I'll have 8...10 conventional hives and 2 experimental ones. Last but not least - I am aware that I definitely will have more troubles with these two experimental hives. But I don't care, I expect it be interesting. If I fail... well, it may easily happen. But not much changes I think. Sincerely, Harri Estonia. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:12:21 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Yellow Jacket Wasps In-Reply-To: <013b01c6067b$461df3f0$29ceb745@drivec> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As regards wasp trapping: Heptyl butyrate is a common attractant in commercial wasp traps, but it is quite expensive. It can be obtained from Pfaltz & Bauer as Item No. HO1890 — purveyors of "rare and fine chemicals." That chemical (what I use) is a powerful attractant in very small doses for Vespula pensylvanica. A very recent three-page publication in J. Econ. Entomol. 98(3): 664-666 (2005) has an article that indicates inexpensive citrus-based soft drink products work well as wasp attractants. Here is the abstract: ABSTRACT Two citrus-based sodas and a known wasp attractant were compared in a field trial to assess their attractiveness to local nuisance wasp species. The wasps captured included Vespula germanica (F.), Vespula maculifrons (Buysson), Vespula vulgaris (L.), Vespula flavopilosa Jacobson, Vespula squamosa (Drury), Dolichovespula maculata (L.), Polistes fuscatus (L.), Polistes metricus Say, and Polistes dominulus (Christ). Wasps in the genus Vespula were present in significantly higher numbers in traps than Dolichovespula and Polistes. Both citrus soda products were superior to the isobutanol-acetic acid mixture as attractants for almost all of the wasp species. I have the complete paper as a file and can send it as an attachment to anyone interested. Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:09:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Alden Marshall Subject: Heifer International MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit FYI this organization has contributed honey bees for quite some years. Our local organization makes a considerable contribution. A rather small sum will purchase a hive of bees, something like $40.00. This is a great cause, where the dollar goes a long way. Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH 03051 -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 07:39:25 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Edwards Subject: Re: Yellow jacket wasps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > ...so presenting a food source every year will certainly make > them think they are on to a good thing. Wasps nests are annual, so are we back to epigenetics? > The traps compound the problem unless you increase > their numbers to capture most all the pests. Precisely the point that my supplier made to me - the traps must catch all the scouts, then you rarely see wasps in the area. It certainly worked this year, but I cannot tell if this was because the traps worked well or whether it was because it was a bad year for the wasps. As to the economics, the traps are not cheap (retail around £20 - discounts available for quantity) but losing queen rearing nucs and colonies that are being built up for the next season can be very costly too. Peter Edwards beekeepers@stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 05:34:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Cara &Tom Patterson Subject: Re: Heifer International In-Reply-To: <004a01c60777$e303d660$6500a8c0@BLINE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Actually the cost for a hive is $30. Their address is http://www.heifer.org/ Here is what they say about the gift of honeybees: The Buzz About Bees From India to the Dominican Republic, bees from Heifer International help struggling families earn income through the sale of honey, beeswax and pollen. Beehives require almost no space, and once established, are inexpensive to maintain. As bees search for nectar, they pollinate plants. Placed strategically, beehives can as much as double some fruit and vegetable yields. In this way, a beehive can be a boon to a whole village. Although most Heifer partners keep bees as a supplement to family income, beekeeping can be a family's livelihood. Your gift provides a family with a package of bees, the box and hive, and training in beekeeping. I think Heifer International is a fine charity. Tom Patterson, Aurora, CO -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:09:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: New World Beeswax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The history of using bee products in the New World is very old and definitely predates the "discovery" of America by Europeans or Asians. It is closely associated with gold working, through the use of the "lost wax" method of casting. This method was invented independently by artisans all over the world who had facility with metals and beeswax. Colombia was a great center of art and culture for thousands of years. >From its probable origins in the northern Central Andean Area about 700 bc, metalworking spread to the Intermediate Area and finally was transmitted to Mesoamerica about ad 1000. Because of European greed for gold and silver, most unburied or unhidden objects of these materials were melted down by the Spanish conquerors and exported to Spain as ingots. Although iron and steel were unknown, copper was widely worked and the alloying of bronze was discovered about ad 1000. Tumbaga, an alloy of copper and gold, was employed in Peru, Colombia, and Ecuador. Many techniques were used for working metal, including the lost-wax process, soldering, and repoussé or embossing. Metalwork was frequently engraved, gilded, or inlaid with various stones and shells. Peoples of highland Colombia, such as the Tairona, produced beautiful gold-and-copper ornaments and religious objects using the lost-wax technique. The artisan would mold a beeswax core in the shape of an animal or a human, enclose this figure in clay, and then pour molten gold mixed with copper through a hole in the clay. The molten metal replaced the wax, which melted away. After the metal had cooled the clay was broken away to reveal the object. In the rich cemetery at Malagana near the modern town of Palmira in Colombia's Cauca Valley, the elite are buried in full sets of regalia made of gold and semi-precious stones. Grand diadems, pectorals, and arm and leg ornaments with repoussé decoration adorn the dead. Hundreds of gold necklace beads in myriad forms that include birds, insects, and human figures are worn. Many are made by the lost-wax casting technique. Note: around 200 B.C. In the Southwest [USA], archaeologists have found prehistoric copper bells produced through an advanced casting process known as the lost-wax technique. Dating from as early as ad 900, these bells are believed to have been obtained in trade from Mexico rather than made locally. Cire Perdue (French, "lost wax"), process of wax casting used in making metal sculpture. A model is coated with wax. The solidified wax is encased in a two-layer mold of plaster or clay. It is then melted or otherwise removed from the mold, and metal is poured into the space where the wax had been. After cooling, the mold is broken to free the metal object. This ancient method is used to produce sculpture, jewelry, and utilitarian products such as dentures. SEE THE SACRED BEE IN ANCIENT TIMES AND FOLKLORE. by Hilda M Ransome Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1937. This book has been reissued by Dover http://store.doverpublications.com/index.html -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 07:52:08 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: New World Beeswax In-Reply-To: <200512231509.jBNF8pqj013332@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter, Maybe you can get this question answered: With this lost wax process and old specimens around like you write so nice about, including small fragments of wax I am told..........why cannot the wax be tested to determine who made it? Or is it too much trouble? We here talks of these digs all the time out here, but why cannot the wax assoc with it be tested, or is there no need to know? Respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:05:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Re: Heifer International In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Patterson wrote (in regard to providing bee hives in poor countries): > I think Heifer International is a fine charity. Heifer rates 3 stars out of four, according to charitynavigator. It ranks at about the same level as Doctors without Borders. Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:06:27 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Thompson Subject: Re: Heifer International MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For several years, my spouse and I have donated bees through Heifer International. Researching the charity, founded as the Heifer Project in New Windsor, MD, decades ago, we found that HI is, as Adrian noted, a highly rated and reputable means by which to donate live animals to parts of the world wherein they make significant difference. Worth one's consideration. Barry Thompson North Potomac, MD -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:05:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hive Construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harri, Look up 'Ian Rumsey' on the interweb. He has been experimenting by allowing bees to build natural comb in stacking boxes with one transparent wall. I may try it myself some time. Wouldn't you do better to select the best of your local black bees rather than bring in a different race. I understand that the crosses can be very bad tempered. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:42:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: New World Beeswax Comments: To: Dee Lusby >With this lost wax process -- why cannot the wax be tested to determine who made it? The short answer is: it's lost. That's why it's called "lost wax casting". The long answer is: that was thousands of years ago. The Spanish melted down most of the gold art treasures. The wax was considered inferior to European beeswax, so no one would have kept it. There is a large amount of writing on the art and culture of the first Americans. The idea that they could not have come up with all of this without help from Europeans or Asians, is pointless at best. Michael D. Coe's excellent book, "The Maya" (4th edition, London: Thames and Hudson, 1987), Coe discusses Mayan life based on the Spanish missionaries' "first-class anthropological accounts of native culture as it was just before they came" (p. 155). He states that "the Maya farmer raised the native stingless bees, which are kept in small, hollow logs closed with mud plaster at either end and stacked up in A-frames, but wild honey was also much appreciated" (p. 156). Honey was a valuable export from the Yucatan (p. 157). Coe also refers to Classic Maya rituals to increase animal life and honey (p. 172). According to Alexander von Humboldt, the Spanish conqueror Cortes found honey being sold by Native Americans in their market places when he came to the New World. Here is the passage from Alexander von Humboldt, Political Essay on the Kingdom of New Spain, translated by John Black, London, 1811, vols. 1 of 3 volumes (accessed in the Special Collection Department at Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa): Cortez . . . told Emperor Charles V of the commodities sold in the great market of Tlaletolco--"There is sold," says he, "honey of bees and wax, honey from the stalks of maize, and honey from a shrub called maguey by the people. The natives make sugar of these plants, and this sugar they also sell." Since pre-Hispanic times the Mayan and Nahua ethnic groups of Central America bred stingless bees for their honey and wax. This type of beekeeping, which is called "meliponiculture", was a well-developed enterprise at the time of the Spanish conquest. Bee stands with hundreds of colonies of Melipona beecheii supplied honey and wax for exportation to Europe. To this day, peasant farmers continue to keep stingless bees in forest areas. Melipona beecheii is still the preferred species for husbandry, while some eight more species are being kept in the home gardens. The honey, wax and pollen of almost all the other stingless bee species are collected in the forest. Lost wax casting, a common metalworking method, typically found where the inhabitants keep bees, was also utilized by the Maya. The wax from melipona is soft and easy to work, especially in the humid Mayan lowland areas. This allowed the Maya to create smaller works of art, jewelry, and other metalsmithing that would be difficult to forge. It also makes use of the leftovers from honey extraction. If the hive was damaged beyond repair, the whole of the comb could be used, thus using the whole of the hive. But hopefully, with experienced keepers, the honey pot can be removed, the honey extracted, and the wax used for casting or other purposes. Peter Borst Danby NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 00:58:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Predrag Cvetkovic Subject: Re: Hive Construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris wrote: > Look up 'Ian Rumsey' on the interweb. He has been experimenting by allowing > bees to build natural comb in stacking boxes with one transparent wall. I may > try it myself some time. I can recommend two Ian's very interesting articles on my website: http://www.pcela.co.yu/ian_pure_simple1.htm http://www.pcela.co.yu/ian_pure_simple2.htm best wishes Predrag -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 05:24:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: joe bossom Subject: the perfidious wax moth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would appreciate referral to a definitive treatise on the life cycle = of the perfidious and opportunistic wax moth. A strange thing happened to some freshly made up supers with new = foundation that resided in a warm building between October of this year = and this week. I found them invested and new foundation damaged. (most = still usable but definitely infested). I had thought that the wax moth = was a creature of warm weather. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:05:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: the perfidious wax moth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:24 AM 12/25/2005, you wrote: >I would appreciate referral to a definitive treatise on the life >cycle of the perfidious and opportunistic wax moth. Dave Cushman does a good job, see: http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/waxmothlifecycle.html Here (Ohio) wax moths are rarely a problem spring and summer and only become a problem late summer and fall when their population reaches it's peak. This is in part i believe because few survive the winter so populations are very low in spring, so it usually takes all season for them to get to levels that are noticeable. Second, after our harvest in fall there are lots empty of supers around for them to infest, both from extracted honey and hives with shrinking populations. Some years aren't too bad, others (like this past fall) anything left unprotected was sure to be full of larvae in fairly short order. They do tend to prefer older comb with pollen and cocoons. And rarely have I seen them infest new foundation. But it can happen and they can be active at fairly cool temperatures (the adults are usually active at night). Your heated building probably gave them ideal conditions (warmer conditions in the dark). -Tim -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:08:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Wallace Subject: Kudzu honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This fall was very dry with almost no rain in Sept and no nectar flow from goldenrod and other sources or at least not enough for honey storage. We did receive some rainfall in early October but I saw very little nectar/honey storge when I checked in mid October. However, when I checked in mid Nov the super was full. When extracted the honey was very dark and it has a grapey taste/flavor which I think is very good. I have heard that bees will work Kudzu and the resulting honey has the grape taste/flavor. Can any other southern beekeepers on this list confirm? Jerry Wallace Atlanta, GA -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:49:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Heifer International Well, Perhaps I am the only one, but I think it is a mistake to give away bees. They should be made to pay for them. If they get them for free, they will think they aren't worth much and they won't take care of them. I have seen too many abandoned hives reeking of AFB. Of course, if they get varroa, they won't live long enough to get AFB. Happy New Year! Isis Glass -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:49:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Lannie D. Ballard" Subject: Carniolan Honey Bees I need a good source for Carniolan Honey Bees I'm in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:32:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: John & Christy Horton Subject: INFO ON DAUGHTER WORKING AFRICANIZED BEESS IN PARAGUAY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for all the comments and contacts sent to me, some I forwarded to my daughter. (This was a while back-she is working with "abejas africanas" in Paraguay) So far, she says my bees are as mean or meaner than the ones she has worked(At least in 55 deg weather here-different story in summertime when we often work w/o veils) She is ,however, aware that she will eventually hit some hot ones, as she is working with another Peace Corp volunteer- Dan-who has extensive experience with these bees and is well aware that they are able to kill and counsels caution in her activities. One thing that I wanted to say is what Dan told me about these bees: They work at night! Now I have never heard of that one. Isnt that wild and wonderful?!! I hope to observe them doing this when I travel to her site in Febrero. What a marvelously wonderful little creature we have in the honeybee! John Horton -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:34:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Barry Thompson Subject: Re: Heifer International MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fortunately, Isis, most of the folks in foreign countries receiving honey bees seem to have a more pragmatic, and grateful, attitude than exists iin our own country at times. The value of honey, wax, and in some cases bee brood, seems to be greatly appreciated by recipients. Barry Thompson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:36:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Carniolans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lannie asks about good sources. Heitkam and Strachan are each very good. Kona may be best of all, but it i= s very difficult to get on their list. For phone numbers, email addresses, etc. enter the nouns above, plus the word 'queens' into google search. Bes= t to also include in quotes. Example "Kona Queens", "Heitkam Queens", etc. Best of all, get a subcription to one of the two monthly magazines. They all advertise. -- Lloyd Spear Owner Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacture of equipment for round comb honey sections, Sundance Pollen Traps, and producer of Sundance custom labels. Contact your dealer or www.RossRounds.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:59:34 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "J. Waggle" Subject: Re: Heifer International In-Reply-To: <200512261949.jBQJdBQP014196@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Isis Glass wrote: > Perhaps I am the only one, but I think it is a > mistake to give away bees.... Worse yet, it's bad luck! According to ancient beekeeping lore, honeybees are very conscious of their dignity and it is an ill omen to give away a hive. Honeybees must be sold for a fair price commensurate with their worth or bad luck will follow. It is also bad luck for the beekeeper of the honeybees to be changed without the bees being told. You can inform them by knocking on the hive, then telling them who their new beekeeper will be. It is also very important that honeybees are never moved from one place to another without being told beforehand (I find that informing the bees of their new post zip code is sufficient here). Every beekeeper has the responsibility to maintain the dignity of Gods little servants. Best Wishes, Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA ‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries' My Site: http://www.biologicalbeekeeping.com Organic Bee Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/ Feral Bee Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:58:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: the perfidious wax moth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah, the wax moth, truly one of the beekeeper's best friends. It demolishes old brood combs that might otherwise be a source of various diseases, including foul brood. It accelerates the demise of colonies that have been weakened through pests and diseases and generally leaves the environment healthier for other bees in the area. It prefers to chomp through old brood comb as it has more protein from old cocoons but seems to manage on less palatable wax also. Generally it can be kept in reasonable proportions by the use of queen excluders, by exposing combs off the hive to winter cold (or a session in a freezer before wrapping in a plastic sack) and by strong healthy colonies. Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:50:41 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: INFO ON DAUGHTER WORKING AFRICANIZED BEESS IN PARAGUAY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I think you'll find that Dan is mistaken. Scuts don't work at night. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:53:42 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Heifer International MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Every beekeeper has the responsibility to maintain the dignity of Gods little servants." We also have a responsibility to think. Hate to break it to you Joe, but they don't know how much you paid for them, nor would they be capable of caring if they did. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 23:49:50 -0600 Reply-To: scot.mcpherson@gmail.com Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "scot.mcpherson" Organization: Mc Pherson Family Honey Farms Subject: Re: INFO ON DAUGHTER WORKING AFRICANIZED BEESS IN PARAGUAY Comments: To: Tim Vaughan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit tim, Perhaps he meant early before twilight mornings and after twilight evenings. I have some swarm captures in sarasota florida that would be a case in point. They worked full force much later in the evening and earlier mornings than anything i'd ever seen. The area is now admitted to be very influenced by scutts. Scot McPherson -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 08:13:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: INFO ON DAUGHTER WORKING AFRICANIZED BEESS IN PARAGUAY wrote: I have some swarm captures in sarasota florida ... The area is now admitted to be very influenced by scutts. Hah! That's a rather round about way of saying you've got African Bees now !! I Glass -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:50:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "D. Murrell" Subject: Re: INFO ON DAUGHTER WORKING AFRICANIZED BEESS IN PARAGUAY Hi Guys, Those bees do work at night. An fairly recent article in one of the US bee mags established this fact. One of our bee researchers was doing some work with feral honey bees while camping on a high, dry plain in South America. They found honey bees. But couldn't figure out what they were working. While relieving himself in the night, after a few beers, he heard a buzzing sound. And found that the dry stems seen during the day, were blooming at night. These plants were the major food source for the feral bees, which actively worked at night and rested during the day. I've had a hive or two on my patio that continued to work at night. But at a greatly reduced rate compared to their daytime activities. I haven't observed this in any field yard. There just aren't many night brooming plants in my local. Regards Dennis -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 07:37:27 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: : [BEE-L] Heifer International MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, Scot, Perhaps the only mistake here is that they are not scuts at all but a different strain completely separate, same as in Florida, Arizona, etc,. Dee, how late into the night do your bees fly? . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 07:58:16 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: INFO ON DAUGHTER WORKING AFRICANIZED BEESS IN PARAGUAY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IGGY ?, > Hah! That's a rather round about way of saying you've got African Bees now !! > Actually, Scot presented a rather direct way of saying his bees could be African by stating the area was admittedly influenced by Scuts, but in my opinion this is no proof of them actually being Scuts or African. Also the bees mentioned in Paraguay did not act as if African or Scut either but a different strain of bee totally, with gentle character and late foraging behavior. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:49:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Apis mellifera working at night Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All: I'm going to be hard to convince on this one. We've had up to 50 hives fitted with counters that keep track of EVERY bee that comes and goes. We've run these counters for 10 years, in many parts of the U.S. - east coast, southeast, southwest, northern tier states. The counters are ON 24/7. We get a few bees milling in and out during the DARK hours (we run weather stations and light sensors concurrently). Sometimes we see a flurry of activity JUST before full dark. But never have we found any significant foraging at night. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:06:01 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: mark berninghausen Subject: Re: INFO ON DAUGHTER WORKING AFRICANIZED BEESS IN PARAGUAY In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Malone wrote: a different strain of bee totally, with gentle character and late foraging behavior. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska Has anyone taken samples of these bees to identify them? Perhaps they are a subspecies of Africanized Honeybee with gentler characteristics. That would be nice. Mark --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:16:35 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: INFO ON DAUGHTER WORKING AFRICANIZED BEESS IN PARAGUAY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>Those bees do work at night. I once read a good beeking book from Poland that said EHB will forage in the night if the conditions are right. They've observed bees foraging on moon-lit nights during strong basswood (linden) flows. Does anybody know if the moon-reflected light has a UV band? Waldemar Long Island, NY -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:43:26 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Apis mellifera working at night In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20051227094637.02f00ec0@mso.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <6.1.2.0.2.20051227094637.02f00ec0@mso.umt.edu>, Jerry Bromenshenk writes >I'm going to be hard to convince on this one. Once, just once, about 20 years ago we turned up at 3AM to load hives for a migration. It was still completely dark. Got out of the truck and got a be in my hair. Turned the torches on because we could hear bees flying. The whole yard were working like mad, the flying was fast, and close to silent, beards of bees were forming on the outside of the hives, and the rank smell of ripening Lime (Basswood) nectar filled the air. These hives had been prepared for shifting only two days before. Came back later the same day and they were stuffed full. Have seen minor cases of it the last two summers, again on Lime flows and once only on Himalayan Balsam, but nothing like this memorable morning in the 1980's. Sorry to those who are trying to make a case for a fictitious new bee strain for whatever bizarre reason, these were simply normal black A.m.m. bees and some Yorks Midnites that I had at the time. They were all doing it, so it is, in this case at least, down to circumstances alone, and nothing to do with mysterious racial characteristics. ps. Those of you who know the Balsam, it is really wierd in the early half light in the morning as these 'ghost bees' are coming home, perhaps having been out all night, and arrive back all dusted with white pollen, as if they had been in a flour tub. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:10:36 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: INFO ON DAUGHTER WORKING AFRICANIZED BEESS IN PARAGUAY In-Reply-To: <20051227.091715.707.179106@webmail05.nyc.untd.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Apparently moonlight is polarized: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/07/ 0702_030702_dungbeetle.html Observations done on A. dorsata have shown that it forages when the moon is between half-full and full. The dance run indiciates the direction not of the moon, though, but the (hidden) sun. -----Eva Crane---- Regards, Dick Allen -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:20:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "waldig@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Apis mellifera working at night Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>...and the rank smell of ripening Lime (Basswood) nectar filled the air. Linden/Lime/Basswood can produce (or not re-absorb) nectar at night. Are there any other plants that do that? Waldemar -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:42:28 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Keith Malone Subject: Re: Apis mellifera working at night MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sorry to those who are trying to make a case for a fictitious new bee > strain for whatever bizarre reason Sorry to hear you think it is maybe bizarre for a new bee to be discovered living and thriving in of all places in South America or even in North America. Science is even in these modern times still finding new animals, fish and insects in our oceans and on land. As a matter of fact a true scientist would keep and hold an open mind to the possibilities that an apis honey bee strain could be indigenous to the Americas and not close the door to the possibility to their being apis native to America. It is not bizarre that there might be a new bee to be proven indigenous to America but if proven it would change many recent studies and politics present today. I really would hope this never happens. . .. Keith Malone, Chugiak, Alaska -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:17:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Ruzicka Subject: Formic Acid Registration >From Bee-L posting in October; Bob Harrison wrote: "Both our national organizations have committed to getting formic & Oxalic registered (with beekeeper donations). I was in meetings when resolutions were made. With due respect to both organizations I do not believe they are going to get the job done on either product. At least not in the near future." Ted Worster, Vice President of New Product Development of UNIVAR USA, is genuinely interested in registering liquid formic acid as an active ingredient in the USA and will be at the AHPA meeting in Houston and would like to hear your opinion. You can contact him in the vendor area at the "MiteGone" booth on Tuesday January 10th and Wednesday January 11th. If you are unable to attend the meeting please send your comments to Ted at; Ted.Worster@univarusa.com Let's prove Bob wrong. Registration of liquid formic acid will allow the use of many different methods, that can be adapted to almost any weather and operation condition. If you wish to educate yourself download the 32 page manual of acid treatments free (at www.mitegone.com. (Located at the bottom of the homepage.) I hope to see you in January on my tutoring trip through California Almond Pollinator acid treatment if you are there and interested give me a call. Bill -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:34:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Apis mellifera working at night In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith Malone wrote: >>Sorry to those who are trying to make a case for a fictitious new bee >>strain for whatever bizarre reason > >It is not bizarre > that there might be a new bee to be proven indigenous to America but if > proven it would change many recent studies and politics present today. Actually, it would be bizarre since there were plenty of observers of a scientific bent before the Europeans came here. There would have been, as there are where Apis abounds, records of the bee. Instead, there are plenty of records of native bees. And were we not talking about Florida? That would make it more bizarre. I think the problem has been solved in that it seems many bees forage at night if there is something to forage. It has nothing to do with a new bee. The argument that bees do not fly at night because we do not see them do so in in our locations, only says there is no nectar source available at night or it is too cold to fly. Or there is good TV on. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:59:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Angela Copi Subject: Re: Kudzu honey? In-Reply-To: <246.451c8c7.30e16f7c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jerry, When does the kudzu bloom down there? Up here in central Virginia it starts in mid to late August. At one time the woods behind where I keep my bees was full of the stuff. I spent a lot of time during its bloom looking for bees working it and only saw the occasional honey bee (but the cartpenter bees liked it a lot). My feeling is that it is, at best, a minor source. On the other hand, I've heard bees like sassafras, but have never seen one on my trees when in bloom (early April). Many variables, and a great honey plant one place (or one year) ain't worth spit under different conditions! If I had dark honey come in toward the end of the season like that in my area my first guess would be smartweed. Keith Copi Richmond, VA _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:18:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: Apis mellifera working at night In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20051227094637.02f00ec0@mso.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry writes: But never have we found any significant foraging at night. Reply: Maybe you should come to Arizona when the Sahuaro Cactus are blooming and the moon is full and try monitoring some local strains here. respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:26:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: : [BEE-L] Heifer International In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Keith Malone writes: Dee, how late into the night do your bees fly? Reply: Liked we have talked on other discussion groups in the past, in the summer months when the cactus bloom, especially the Sahuaro, or even pricky pear, even large stands of cholla, on the full moon the bees will fly most of the night. For when we used to move bees we'd be out at 1-2AM in the morning and they'd be out. so we learned to move on the new moon instead when there'ed be a cut off sort of. But large cactus flows here in desert where food is scarce other times of the year.....well the bees get it while they can it seems.....but then that would make sense. respectfully submitted, Dee A. Lusby Small Cell Commercial Beekeeper Moyza, Arizona http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organicbeekeepers/ __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 09:17:10 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: queenbee Subject: Re: Apis mellifera working at night MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sorry to hear you think it is maybe bizarre for a new bee to be discovered > living and thriving in of all places in South America or even in North > America. Science is even in these modern times still finding new animals, > fish and insects in our oceans and on land. There are lumpers and there are splitters. I find this here in Australia in botany where a "new" species of Eucalypt is discovered. Most times it is a splitter wanting to split up a species because something is seen under an SEM (scanning electron microscope) that is slightly different. I believe it is just different provences. The same could easily occur with honey bees where a slight difference is seen to be a new species. I suppose it justifies a job. I think Murray is on the ball with his observations. > Linden/Lime/Basswood can produce (or not re-absorb) nectar at night. Are > there any other plants that do that? Yes, research has found that here in Australia a lot of our Eucalypts start secreting at night. This then puts paid to the argument that our honeybees are stealing the nectar from the bats and sugar gliders (nocturnal animals). In fact they have first go at the new secretions. However, don't expect to hear this from the greenies as it does not suit their cause. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA Coming to Apimondia in Australia in 2007? -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:32:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: INFO ON DAUGHTER WORKING AFRICANIZED BEESS IN PARAGUAY >Actually, Scot presented a rather direct way of saying his bees could be >African by stating the area was admittedly influenced by Scuts Well, The word *influenced* means what in this context? How are they influenced by them? It is my understanding that where there are Africans, they *are* the feral population of a given area. To say the bees are "influenced" by them seems to me to be quite the opposite of making a direct statement. I G -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 09:08:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Jerry Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Apis mellifera working at night In-Reply-To: <20051227221811.62947.qmail@web51611.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:18 PM 12/27/2005, Dee Lusby wrote: >Reply: >Maybe you should come to Arizona when the Sahuaro Cactus >are blooming and the moon is full and try monitoring some >local strains here. Dee -- I'd love to have a counter on a hive to document that event. One point has been clarified by your comments and Murray's. Bees fly at night only when there is light (moon, dusk, dawn) and a nectar flow (correct?). I can believe that, we've seen bees flying at dawn with the first rays of light, mid-summer, on the deserts of eastern Washington, when the mornings were cool, the afternoons 113 F. Some of the small shrubs were releasing nectar in the very early morning. Jerry -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:44:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Apis mellifera working at night In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20051228090253.02e449e0@msoexchvs1.gs.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In message <6.1.2.0.2.20051228090253.02e449e0@msoexchvs1.gs.umt.edu>, Jerry Bromenshenk writes >One point has been clarified by your comments and Murray's. Bees fly at >night only when there is light (moon, dusk, dawn) and a nectar flow >(correct?). Jerry, Actually I cannot tell you that. It was a very dark night. In Scotland we rarely get these very warm summer nights unless there is cloud cover. I have no idea whatsoever about moon phase at the time, so regrettably cannot add any more to the statements about moonlight, it was certainly pre-dawn. Possibly a full moon above the cloud cover? Don't know. -- Murray McGregor -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:38:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Human Face recognition by bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have recently learned that bees can distinguish between photographs of people and remember individuals for a few days. Does anyone know whether they can go further and recognise people from their photographs? If so, I was thinking that this might be put to good use around election time............ Chris -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:16:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Daniel Adam Subject: Re: Apis mellifera working at night In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20051227094637.02f00ec0@mso.umt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jerry. Can you provide more details on these counters? Specifications, pictures? Thanks, happy new year from switzerland. Greetings, Daniel -- Jerry Bromenshenk wrote: We've had up to 50 hives fitted with counters that keep track of EVERY bee that comes and goes. We've run these counters for 10 years, in many parts of the U.S. - east coast, southeast, southwest, northern tier states. The counters are ON 24/7. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:10:33 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Apis mellifera working at night In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray, Jerry & all To add to the what Murray has said... I have no personal experience of bees flying in the dead of night, but I have had reports of two instances (both Derbyshire heather moors) one of which reported bright moonlight and the other said no moon visible. I have seen much flying just after dark falling, but it is mostly returning bees. Regards & Best 73s, Dave Cushman, G8MZY http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman or http://www.dave-cushman.net Short FallBack M/c, Build 6.02/3.1 (stable) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:20:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: a new bee indigenous to America! >Sorry to hear you think it is maybe bizarre for a new bee to be discovered >living and thriving in of all places in South America or even in North >America. It is not bizarre that there might be a new bee to be proven >indigenous to America Such a statement turns a blind eye to the thousands of individuals who have studied bees all over the world for hundreds of years. New *honey bees* have been discovered in recent years (most recently Apis koschevnikovi) but not in the Americas. You can see a picture of A. koschevnikovi at: http://tinyurl.com/9gg6k You owe it to yourself (and us) to at least glance at this book: "Bees of the World" is a classic work. Written by the recognized world authority on bees, it enables the reader to identify bees and to understand their classification and phylogeny. Michener's strength is his world mastery of bee systematics, and this book will, no doubt, be the 'bible' used by specialists and students throughout the world. -- Jerome G. Rozen, Jr., American Museum of Natural History Charles Michener is the world's expert on bees. There is no one who knows more about the group and no one who has trained more students in bee biology and systematics. I can think of no other person alive today who could have written this book -- it will be an invaluable resource to a wide audience of people interested in bees, ecology, evolution, and natural history. -- Bryan N. Danforth, Cornell University If it isn't in this book, it probably doesn't exist. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:41:06 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: "Adrian M. Wenner" Subject: Honey bees of America! Comments: cc: tomas mozer In-Reply-To: <200512300020.jBU0K8VI011551@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those interested in a recent summary of information found in publications about honey bee races in North America can access: www.beesource.com/news/article/floridaferalsurvivor.htm Adrian -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 08:21:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Isis Glass Subject: Re: Honey bees of America! Comments: To: "Adrian M. Wenner" In the article referenced by Dr. Wenner, Mr. Mozer tries to paint an upbeat picture: "recent findings (pers. communication, W. L. Rubink) of ~25% European mtDNA persisting in the Texas feral population are encouraging." however, the facts he presents do not support much optimism: By 1996, the feral populations had declined dramatically. Africanization began to increase in 1995, with all the colonies Africanized by 1998 (unpublished data, William Rubink). These data suggest populations of European feral honey bees were decimated by Varroa mites in 1995, and then replaced by Africanized honey bees in the following years. Colonies from Mexico and Honduras, had African mitochondrial DNA and high frequencies of African nuclear DNA alleles. Consistent with previous findings, east European alleles were absent or detected at low frequencies in these colonies. West European alleles were found at frequencies from 26 to 31%. These results suggest that queen offspring of the African queens first introduced into Brazil mated with west European drones, incorporating neutral markers* that have since remained in the expanding population of feral African bees. * Neutral markers. Does this mean that they have genes of west European bees but that these genes don't give them any characteristics of those bees? If so, it is of interest only to geneticists, since the overall behavior of the hybrid would be African. I Glass -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 08:18:58 -0800 Reply-To: Tim Vaughan Sender: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: Honey bees of America! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isis, I may be wrong but I think the problem is that the wording in the article could be more clear. What I read here "However, recent findings (pers. communication, W. L. Rubink) of ~25% European mtDNA persisting in the Texas feral population are encouraging.However, recent findings (pers. communication, W. L. Rubink) of ~25% European mtDNA persisting in the Texas feral population are encouraging." Is that about a quarter of the feral hives remaining are of primarily European background. I think if the author were talking of neutral markers he wouldn't have used the term mtDNA because neutral markers are found both patralinearly and matrilinearly. But since that seems to contradict other data in the article, we'd best wait for Adrian to chime in :-) -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---